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Next entry: Harassing science out of existence Previous entry: The Dumb Blacks Hypothesis

JAQ-ing off

I want to follow up Jesse’s excellent post on this ridiculous tide of people pretending that there’s legitimate, unresolved questions about intelligence differences between black and white people as groups, and I want to continue teasing out something Jill picked up on.  The defenses of Stephanie Grace from the likes of Eugene Volokh and others—-and her own email—-are a classic example of what skeptics like to call “JAQ-ing off”.  Ironically, I just was dealing with a cruder, stupider version of this from Jill Stanek and the other folks claiming that aborted fetuses in vaccines cause autism.  But because the people that are “Just Asking Questions” about whether or not black people are stupider are more sophisticated, it might be hard to see that they’re doing the same thing to the same effect as the fetuses-in-vaccines nutters, which is making ridiculous, unscientific claims while pretending to be interested in scientific inquiry. 

A refresher on what “JAQ-ing off” means:

JAQing off is the act of spouting accusations while cowardly hiding behind the claim of “Just Asking Questions”.[1]  The strategy is to keep asking leading questions in an attempt to influence listeners’ views; the term is derived from the frequent claim by the denialist that they are “just asking questions”, albeit in a manner much the same as political push polls. It is often associated with denialism in general.

I would definitely say that the people JAQ-ing off on the “question” of intelligence here are denialists, and what they’re denying is the historical turn towards a progressive, humanitarian, and not coincidentally more scientifically sound understanding of our common humanity.  Like most denialists, they eagerly ignore the mounds of evidence that the questions they’re claiming to raise have been settled beyond a shadow of a doubt, because they’re not really raising questions.  They’re lobbing accusations.  Volokh’s bad faith might be hard to smell since he buries it in a pseudo-sophistication that no doubt took him years of wanking off to cultivate, but his work is showing all over the place.  Like here:

One absolutely should not rule out the possibility that African Americans are, on average, genetically predisposed to be less intelligent. Likewise, to give examples involving three groups I myself belong to, one absolutely should not rule out the possibility that Jews are (say), on average, genetically predisposed to be more acquisitive, or more loyal to their narrow ethnic group than to broader groups, or that whites are genetically predisposed to be more hostile to other racial groups, or that being nonreligious is genetically linked, and that people who have those genes are genetically predisposed to be more likely to commit crime or cheat on their spouses or what have you.

Note what questions he doesn’t entertain.  Like Jesse said, he doesn’t entertain the possibility that whites could be less intelligent.  But he also doesn’t ask this question of Jews, even though historically this accusation has been lobbed and was part of the justification for the Holocaust.  Which in turn leads me to believe that Volokh’s stated willingness to entertain “hard” questions about himself and his people is just a put-on. 

JAQ-ing off crops up a lot when the conspiracy theorists/denialists in question are trying to refute a giant wad of evidence against their claim that basically settles the question beyond any reasonable doubt.  Creationists dwell on what they considered unanswered questions about evolution.  Holocaust denialists, 9/11 Truthers, Birthers, you name it—-they all hide by saying, “I’m not saying for sure, I’m just asking questions,” as if the answers weren’t readily available.  And that’s what Volokh does here:

Whether there are genetic differences among racial and ethnic groups in intelligence is a question of scientific fact. Either there are, or there aren’t (or, more precisely, either there are such differences under some plausible definitions of the relevant groups and of intelligence, or there aren’t). The question is not the moral question about what we should do about those differences, if they exist. It’s not a question about what we would like the facts to be. The facts are what they are, whether we like them or not.

Okay, fine.  But you cannot have it both ways.  If it’s a matter of scientific fact, then it cannot by definition be resolved by a bunch of law students and bloggers “debating” it.  I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Volokh is just hiding behind “science” here, since he never bothers to even ponder if science has ever looked into this question.  He stubbornly ignores the fact that one of the most famous and well-respected popular science books of all time—-The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould—-rounds up all the major reasons that these “questions” are stupid and makes it clear that this is about as legitimate a form of debate as debating whether or not evolution happened.  Volokh doesn’t actually talk about the actual scientific inquiry, because it says what he doesn’t want to hear. 

He gets very close to stabbing at why, before recoiling and running off into the wilderness of his own ignorance. 

But we still know very little about which genes produce intelligence, how exactly those genes operate, and even how intelligence can be defined. We obviously have vastly more left to learn about this.

He’s close, but misses by a mile because he wants to leave the “question” open.  Actually, there’s entire fields of scientific study about how the brain works and develops. We actually know quite a bit about cognition and what he likes to call “intelligence”.  It’s just that what we know makes it clear that this debate is stupid.  But he is right about one thing!  Which is that “intelligence” is hard to define.  Well, and then he’s only kind of right.  The reason that there’s no magic bullet studies about “intelligence” isn’t that it’s because it’s a set thing that’s simply hard to measure.  It’s because “intelligence” is an inexact, meaningless word.  It’s not culturally meaningless, of course.  When I say, “Oh, you’re so smart” to a friend that figures something out, I’m not full of shit.  But as an actual trait that can be measured?  It’s meaningless as a term. 

It’s like the way anti-vaccers talk about “toxins” in vaccines.  It’s an empty word that means whatever you need it to mean in order to keep the “questions” going.  Intelligence is tricky to measure, because there is no such thing.  For instance, if I devised an IQ test that only measured how well a person understands scientific inquiry, Eugene Volokh would probably score incredibly low.  If you measured intelligence by how well someone understood legal jargon, I’d score incredibly low.  Or take my cats, for instance.  One would kick ass at the drawer-opening test, and the other at the figuring out how doorknobs work test.  But if you reversed those, suddenly the super-smart cats would seem like really stupid cats.  Add to this that not only isn’t intelligence a single quality, but it’s also not a fixed trait.  I may not have a high “IQ” on legal jargon, but if I went to law school, my “native” intelligence on this question would rise dramatically. 

What’s amazing to me is what Jesse was pointing to, which is the ease with which people I would consider ripe morons, like Eugene Volokh and Stephanie Grace, consider themselves the pinnacle of intelligence.  Actually, I’m pretty sure that they’re good at what they’re good at, even though they’d seem like complete idiots if all you know about them is this debate.  If you devised an IQ test around questions like, “Should questions of science be resolved by not asking scientists but instead having a bunch of law students faux debate about it?”, they’d not do so well! 

I could keep making jokes in this vein, but I’d like to finish off by pointing out that this whole non-debate has another classic hallmark of denialism, besides just ignoring the actual evidence while “asking questions”.  And that is the conspiracy theory element.  Granted, this is another way that these denialists of a pro-racist stripe are surprisingly good at dressing themselves up in sophisticated clothing, because it’s hard to see initially how they are basically engaging a conspiracy theory.  They’re able to argue this in the margins.  They hint, but never say outright.  But their implication is hard to miss.  They’re implying that there could be scientific inquiry into this, but that the evil Political Correctness Army won’t allow it.  And you can tell, because the Political Correctness Army shuts down the most valid form of scientific inquiry known to man, which is drunk law students debating something they know nothing about with nothing but vague terms and a resolved unwillingness to look at actual evidence on their side.  And the Politically Correct Army does this through the most pernicious form of censorship ever invented, which is criticizing conservatives, and making fun-killing if accurate points about how this “debate” was put to rest eons ago by simply looking at the non-evidence put up by racists to uphold their unscientific claims.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:23 AM • (114) Comments

But then Stephen Jay Gould didn’t analyse Lisa’s angel bone sample, so can we really trust his judgement? Just asking.

Comment #1: sirkowski  on  05/03  at  11:52 AM

Those people make me ill.

Comment #2: Alix  on  05/03  at  12:01 PM

One absolutely should not rule out the possibility that African Americans are, on average, genetically predisposed to be less intelligent.

One absolutely should not rule out the possibility that the world was created and is run by an Invisible Bearded Sky Man™. Not that I’m presenting any credible evidence to support that claim, but hey, “just askin’ questions.”

likewise, to give examples involving three groups I myself belong to, one absolutely should not rule out the possibility that Jews are (say), on average, genetically predisposed to be more acquisitive

Wait, what? He thinks this is a convincing argument in favour of JAQing off about pseudo-genetics? What is he, on drugs?

Comment #3: Gracchus.  on  05/03  at  12:16 PM

Yep, he used a stereotype that is on its way out in order to play this game.  The stakes he created for himself were incredibly low, and let’s face it—-as a conservative, he probably buys the idea that greed is good.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/03  at  12:30 PM

I’m not saying for sure, I’m just asking questions,” as if the answers weren’t readily available.

This shit drives me up the wall.  And right there—right there’s your bulls-eye.

Comment #5: Ranylt  on  05/03  at  12:32 PM

I think it might be a good idea for every say, high school student, to have one of those tests that shows you what your genetic make-up is.  These kind of “questions” couldn’t be raised if everyone realized that there aren’t any genetically “pure” folks or groups—here in the US, e.g. most of those of us who look “african american” have a significant amount of “caucasian” genetic components, and many if not most of us who look caucasian have some “african american” genetic content, and so on for any ethnic/racial group one wants to pretend to “be.”

Comment #6: elisabeth51  on  05/03  at  12:35 PM

All these debates should have a Fox-style chyron running below them, like:“Are African-Americans stupider than whites?” Then, juxtaposed pictures of George W. Bush and Barack Obama to help us with the answer.

Comment #7: R.Porrofatto  on  05/03  at  12:46 PM

“The Daily Show” did a great bit on the chyrons below their broadcasts that ask questions like, “Do Democrats want America to fail?” and the like.

Comment #8: misplacedpatriot  on  05/03  at  12:59 PM

Oh God, here comes the Bell Curve again.  Here’s a takedown of the book (not that most of the people who believe it can even understand the principles on which it fails):

http://www.qis.net/~jschmitz/afu/bellcurve.html

Comment #9: oldfeminist  on  05/03  at  01:00 PM

I find it odd that this STUPID and UTTERLY USELESS canard has re-surfaced - again. I’d guess the reason is that not only is Barrack Obama black -it’s obvious that he’s much much much smarter than his opponents and last guy who was in the oval office. So there is this sudden push to ressure the legions of wittless pink guys in suits that no it’s okay, he’s just an abberation. You still rule.

By the by if you haven’t read the Mismeasure of Man - do so.

Comment #11: professorfate  on  05/03  at  01:02 PM

“They’re able to argue this in the margins.  They hint, but never say outright.  But their implication is hard to miss.  They’re implying that there could be scientific inquiry into this, but that the evil Political Correctness Army won’t allow it.”

...and because the Political Correctness Army stifles “scientific research” into “racial differences”, the implication is that there must already be suppressed evidence that “colored” races are inferior.  And if we could broadcast the proof that non-white people are genetically inferior, we could get a worldwide consensus on this “fact”. 

And then we’d be allowed to — and justified in doing so — pay them less, deny them advanced education, and ultimately removing them from Polite Society if they become agitated (Prison Industrial Complex?).  Maybe we could gather “them” up and ship them off to some other continent where there are more of “their kind” so they’d be happier no longer having to compete with their genetic superiors.

Gag…

There are definitely truckloads of bullshit, and delusional thinking behind this crap.  And it’s sad and maddening, after the long history of war, strife, and death caused directly or indirectly by this kind of thinking — especially in the last century — that some people can still cover themselves with a veneer of “science” and open their pieholes to give it all another go around.

Disgusting…

Comment #12: MikeEss  on  05/03  at  01:08 PM

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-september-13-2006/the-question-mark
Comment #10: misplacedpatriot on 05/03 at 11:01 AM

That’s a classic segment.

Comment #13: Ben D.  on  05/03  at  01:10 PM

The question, “Do human races vary in intelligence?” is much like the question, “Are the red lemons eaten by gremlins different from the red lemons eaten by Klingons?”  “Race” and “intelligence” are as chimerical as gremlins, red lemons, Klingons or chimerae.

Comment #14: Dr. Psycho  on  05/03  at  01:10 PM

Add Volokh’s post as Answer #4,502,304 to “I’ll take ‘Why Libertarians can’t expand their appeal past snotty, privileged white guys’ for five hundred, Alex.”

Comment #15: mythago  on  05/03  at  01:10 PM

And pr0fessorfate, folks like this probably attribute Obama’s brains to his white mother.

Comment #16: DC Fem  on  05/03  at  01:10 PM

MikeEss, I think that the suppressed evidence you mention is, to them, all around us. They look around and see white people are succeeding at life and black people are criminals/drug addicts/welfare recipients. Ok, so *some* black people succeed, but they are outliers. That that’s a racist premise somehow eludes them.

Comment #17: ElleDee  on  05/03  at  01:17 PM

The scientific method doesn’t require us to be open-minded and tolerant of just any nonsense someone decides to spout.  If somebody came up with a hypothesis under which it made sense for the genes controlling skin color, and hair texture to also control intelligence, I’d give it respectful attention—but because most people don’t think with their hair or skin, gaining my respectful attention for such a hypothesis would be no easy task.  Similarly, anyone wanting my respectful attention for such a hypothesis would have to deal with the fact that “races” do not represent isolated breeding populations—in the United States in particular, the “one drop of blood” rule means that race is largely a social construct rather than a biological reality.  The claim that the hypothetical skin color-linked stupidity gene is so dominent as to degrade the intelligence of anyone with any black ancestry is hard to reconcile with everything else we know about heredity.

It’s not as if we on the left haven’t been open-minded about this stuff in the past—the right has been busy reminding us lately that a century or so ago, many on the left as well as the right accepted eugenics.  But the point is, there’s been a ton of science since that time refuting eugenics and racism—we now understand the mechanisms of heredity much better than we did in, say, 1902.  Being “open-minded and tolerant” does not mean “persisting in long-since refuted error.”

Comment #18: rea  on  05/03  at  01:18 PM

Wait, what? He thinks this is a convincing argument in favour of JAQing off about pseudo-genetics? What is he, on drugs?
Comment #3: Gracchus on 05/03 at 10:16 AM

It would be irresponsible not to ask.

Comment #19: Babieca  on  05/03  at  01:26 PM

the bottom line: ms. grace raised the issue. it’s now incumbent upon her to provide supportable, empirically based data, subject to peer review, to determine if her hypothesis is correct. i doubt this was ever her intent, her apology is disengenuous, and she’ll get snapped up by one those right-wing “legal institutes”.

heck, maybe that was her plan all along.

Comment #20: cpinva  on  05/03  at  01:28 PM

Political correctness has not put off research into IQ differences between “races”. I’m going to post the same link I did in the other thread that is Jensen’s summary of his work over about 30 years. You can say a lot of thing about what is intelligence and are the tests appropriate but you can’t say Jensen isn’t a hard worker, that he doesn’t have a broad knowledge of his field or that he isn’t a good statistician. I don’t agree with him so don’t ask me to defend his positions but I think having his research appear in the thread is important because its way too easy to make fun of right wing students.

http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushtonpdfs/PPPL1.pdf

Comment #21: pharmakos  on  05/03  at  01:31 PM

Pharmakos, sometimes “good statisticians” have the least grasp of reality of anybody.  They believe their numbers, and lose sight of larger meaning or relevance or generalizability. 

Kind of like physicists who decide that everybody who works with socially complicated scientific phenomenon MUST be doing it wrong and then oversimplify their idealized analyses into extremely biased and meaningless junk.  It never occurs to them that biostatisticians and epidemiologists would make it so simple IF ACTUALLY WERE THAT SIMPLE!  Simple is easy if you are being totally mindless of reality!

Comment #22: Ms Kate  on  05/03  at  01:37 PM

JAQing off is a convenient strategy because it makes bigots feel like martyrs when the repercussions land.  “I’m just ASKING!  I’m not SAYING anything!”  Just like Galileo wondering whether the earth went around the sun.  Larry Summers wrapped up his misogyny in a set of possible explanations that denied discrimination.  What a scientific method he had.

Of course, these dudes feel perfectly comfortable persecuting others for the questions they choose to just ask.  Take Cynthia McKinney asking what George W. Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened.  That question was treason.  And oh hell, just to give another example from their side, Andrew Sullivan hasn’t really been allowed to ask his questions about Sarah Palin’s pregnancy and childbirth.

I’ve been curious about how many votes McKinney got in my state, New York, when she ran for president on the Green Party line in 2008.  Is that a question one is allowed to ask?  I tried several online searches and couldn’t find an answer.

Comment #23: Unree  on  05/03  at  01:39 PM

This whole thing drives me up a damn wall.  For one, the JAQ-ers are idiots.  But as a scientist, I’m even more frustrated with the cloud of racism and sexism that they cause to hang over a valid area of scientific inquiry.

In the absence of these types of people, one could, for example, look into genetic and physiological influences on specific types of mental aptitude.  Research might help identify children who are prone to specific learning disabilities and offer treatments or therapies which could allow them to be more successful in life.  It could suggest the possibility of new, brain-boosting drugs that could make us all think more clearly or help us with our own personal deficiencies.  Yes, there’s the threat of eugenics (there always is with genetic research) but the potential benefit of understanding the brain at the molecular level is staggering.

However, when we have a constant stream of idiots pushing to determine the heritability of “intelligence” because they (quite transparently) want to declare their particular group “the smartest”, it’s very difficult to pursue this type of research and appear to be doing it in good faith.  If the JAQ-ers were really interested in the science (and not just in proving that whites/white men are better than everyone else), they’d shut the hell up and let the real scientists get to work.

Comment #24: Dave Fried  on  05/03  at  01:44 PM

I was wondering when someone would notice that Stephen Jay Gould nuked this debate into oblivion 30 years ago and the people still carrying on about it are like the cockroaches that inevitably survive the blast.

Thank you for serving as the intellectual bug spray.

Comment #25: Jeff  on  05/03  at  01:55 PM

Dave, that research does have to take into account that there are overlapping distributions in any of your stated dichotomies.  Men have a range of hormonal influences, as do women.  Some women are sensitive to their own testosterone, some men can’t process testosterone and become phenotypic women as a result.  And everything in between!  Similarly, people in the US are often far more racially mixed than they know.  I was raised white but I have not inconsiderable amounts of Native American and African genetic heritage, too.

I know from research that I have worked with professionally that certain genes are often more prevalent in certain self-identified racial groups, but this is never 100%, and it tends to be highly local to the geographic area of research.  So you can say that 85% of blacks in Gomer County, Red State have a certain gene, but you can’t say that of self-identified blacks in the entire US because only 25% in Industrial County, Blue State have that gene.

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  05/03  at  01:59 PM

If anybody wants to know why IQ has climbed in the US in general in the last 20-30 years, look no further than the removal of lead from paint and gasolene.

Comment #27: Ms Kate  on  05/03  at  02:01 PM

I’ve been curious about how many votes McKinney got in my state, New York, when she ran for president on the Green Party line in 2008.  Is that a question one is allowed to ask?  I tried several online searches and couldn’t find an answer.
Comment #23: Unree on 05/03 at 11:39 AM

Wikipedia says 12,801.

This data was carried on the AP wires, I guarantee it, though what is carried and what is published are two totally different things.  Many stick to “top three” which wouldn’t be McKinney.

Comment #28: oldfeminist  on  05/03  at  02:01 PM

JAQ-ing as you define it is stupid.  Fortunately, Volokh wasn’t doing anything of the sort in his post.  He is not “sprouting accusations” of lesser intelligence.  Just because he failed to list the examples of differences you would prefer to see (W<B, Jews being less intelligent) doesn’t change that.

He also did not suggest that a bunch of law students or bloggers can resolve a scientific dispute through pure debate.  He mentions two debates:  one about whether intelligence is inheritable, and one about how to define intelligence.  Nowhere does he suggest that “... questions of science be resolved by not asking scientists but instead having a bunch of law students faux debate about it?”

Comment #29: anoNY  on  05/03  at  02:15 PM

Volokh chose various pernicious stereotypes to be “valid questions” to ask.  Aside from it being racist and wrong, why is that even an interesting path for science to pursue? These questions provide nothing useful to expand our understanding of anything, really.  Who does it help to find out if Jews are money grubbing? This is , IMO, very similar to what’s done in the bullshit field of evospych.  Take an absurd prejudice (men don’t like to shop, women are more chatty, men are better at math) that is nevertheless widely held, waste resources studying the question, find a limited and equivocal result which is of questionable scientific value, then use it to make broad sweeping claims that the study was never intended to answer. Oh and top it off with the fact that these broad and false claims don’t even lead to any useful applications or ways to apply that knowledge. It’s just fodder for right-wingers.

What’s especially frustrating about the whole intelligence debate is that it’s never motivated by any hypothetical mechanism by which one group is supposed to have become more/less intelligent than another genetically—it’s just to confirm people’s racist beliefs.  (even ignoring the utterly meaningless definition of intelligence)Typically, evolution works by increasing the proportion of people in a population with specific “fit” genes for their environment. What about Africa would select for people who are less intelligent in the populations? it makes no sense! Also, AA’s share considerable DNA with people who are of European ancestry, so the idea is even less sensible.

Comment #30: t-ster  on  05/03  at  02:29 PM

Why am I not surprised our local libertarian troll is playing the same game as Volokh?  Simply stating that Volokh wasn’t JAQ-ing off doesn’t make it true, anon.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/03  at  02:53 PM

The fact that the JAQ-ers don’t acknowledge that this question has been thoroughly addressed—-and the one that popped up in our comments is going right along with them—-proves that they’re not really asking questions.  There are answers!  But they aren’t what the JAQ-ers want to hear.  The JAQ-ers want to hear blacks are inferior.  There’s no reason to think this, so they ignore the evidence against them and keep asking questions.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/03  at  02:55 PM

I love the post, Amanda. I wanted to touch on another related point, but I didn’t have time read the comments, so I apologize if someone else hit on this. It really bugs me that there seems to be this cultural view that numbers+magic=scientifically proven, but scientific studies rarely “prove” anything. Usually what they find is some sort of correlation, people with X trait are likely to also possess Y trait. Studies can find trends and averages, but usually tell us JACK SHIT about what an individual will be like. So even if they were to find some trend, it would have no real application accept for the racist aims of the people asking the questions.

I think your last point about the PC police is especially relevant, since it will allow the racists to feel like they are the ones being oppressed. And it makes liberals anti “science” to boot.

Comment #33: alysia  on  05/03  at  02:57 PM

or that being nonreligious is genetically linked, AND that people who have those genes are genetically predisposed to be more likely to commit crime or cheat on their spouses or what have you

(My Caps)

There is in fact some reasonable research that suggests some aspects of being religious may have a genetic component. But even here Volokh is acting in bad faith thought his ‘interpretation’ of what being non-religious means (i.e. an adulterous thug, as opposed to not believing in God).

Comment #34: Nineveh  on  05/03  at  02:58 PM

There is in fact some reasonable research that suggests some aspects of being religious may have a genetic component

I believe there is also some research that proves adultery and crime are more likely to occur with being religious

of course, my belief that this exists has nothing to do with its’ actual existence

Comment #35: firefall  on  05/03  at  03:13 PM

There are answers!  But they aren’t what the JAQ-ers want to hear.  The JAQ-ers want to hear blacks are inferior.  There’s no reason to think this, so they ignore the evidence against them and keep asking questions.

I once shared an office with a JAQ-er, and this very topic came up.  I made a similar observation that you did, i.e., that no one ever argues for his or her own inferiority, and his reply was something to the effect of, “well, I can’t go play in the NBA.”  I pointed out that he knew - or at least should have known - that there’s a difference between making claims about specific skills and abilities and making claims about general abilities that are deemed to have significant social and cultural importance.  Otherwise, he’d have to admit that he’s inferior to NBA players, which he refused to do.

Usually what they find is some sort of correlation, people with X trait are likely to also possess Y trait. Studies can find trends and averages, but usually tell us JACK SHIT about what an individual will be like. So even if they were to find some trend, it would have no real application accept for the racist aims of the people asking the questions.

Interestingly, this is very close what JAQ-ers and Bell Curve types say in order to defend themselves against charges of racism.  The idea is that the larger trends indicate the problems with broad social policies, but of course that shouldn’t translate in decisions we make about individual people, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Comment #36: Linnaeus  on  05/03  at  03:25 PM


If anybody wants to know why IQ has climbed in the US in general in the last 20-30 years, look no further than the removal of lead from paint and gasolene.

I wonder if this also explains the fact that violent crime in the US actually dropped last year even during a bad recession.

Comment #37: bay of arizona  on  05/03  at  03:31 PM

But it’s true.  Even if there’s a majority trend in genetics, that doesn’t mean that any particular individual will express that trait, so while it might behoove us to prepare for it - like testing for that particular disease more often or whatnot - it doesn’t help us to treat it as a forgone conclusion.

And really, because of how incestuous Human DNA is, it is perfectly plausible that genes for eyes or skin can also express into other internal things.

But intelligence is a particular stupid question, because it cannot be measured, and it can be shortcut by memory, experience, or cheating.

Comment #38: Crissa  on  05/03  at  03:47 PM

A few things:

1.  Africa is an extremely diverse continent, and African-Americans are descended from many different ethnicities from West and Central Africa.
2.  There are many African-Americans with considerable white heritage.
3.  Racists r dum.

Comment #39: keshmeshi  on  05/03  at  03:55 PM

There are allegedly scientific studies that reject these claims and prove no measurable difference in intelligence between races but those don’t fit into Volokh’s worldview so they aren’t mentioned. This is exactly like last weeks Frontline where scientists did a dozen studies to find a link between vaccines and autism and couldn’t find it. But that didn’t stop anti-vaxxers from accusing them of not studying a link between vaccines and autism.

We should all implore the scientific community to just ignore the loons like the Hawaii legislature is now legally empowered to do. They could find what really causes autism if they stopped wasting time trying to prove something to people who will never believe them. Same here. There are people who will always believe in the genetic inferiority of others and science is better served working on problems that are solvable. Willful ignorance is not solvable.

Comment #40: DC Fem  on  05/03  at  04:07 PM

Keshmeshi, one more to add:

4. There are many white Americans with considerable African-American heritage.

Comment #41: Ms Kate  on  05/03  at  04:15 PM

Number 30 perfectly sums up my thoughts on the whole thing, now that I have read the thread. The reason people ask such questions is so that they can broadly mis-apply the findings in order to justify racism or sexism or whatever. “Science” like that seems to have all the terrible of religion without the nifty after-life.

Comment #42: alysia  on  05/03  at  04:54 PM

i doubt i’ll lose much sleep because racists feel “oppressed”. they’re free to be racists, and i’m free to verbally abuse and make fun of them. it’s right there in the constitution, in the fine print.

pharmakos, i went and read your linked article. jensen displayed his weak science credentials right off the bat: there is no such thing as a genetically “jewish” race. there are two primary groups, ashkenazi & sephardic, from two almost completely different areas of europe. the original 12 tribes were themselves comprised of a host of different peoples, all slaves in egypt, all availing themselves of the opportunity to leave, with moses and his gang. they were, if you will, something of a “heinz 57” polyglot, all of whom agreed to take up a monotheistic belief system, that whole “ten (or so) commandments” thing.

jensen lumps them all together as one “race”, as he does hispanics (what about the indiginous peoples of mexico and SA, that intermarried with the spaniards?), not to mention all the interbreeding of whites and blacks, in the US. in sum, his work is flawed right from the start, and rightfully carries little or no weight in the actual scientific community. anything based on it inherently suffers from those same flaws. pun intended.

Comment #43: cpinva  on  05/03  at  05:25 PM

He mentions two debates:  one about whether intelligence is inheritable, and one about how to define intelligence.  Nowhere does he suggest that “… questions of science be resolved by not asking scientists but instead having a bunch of law students faux debate about it?”

By explicitly stating that non-scientists are having a debate about the matter, he’s basically excluding the possibility of presenting scientific evidence.  If his opinion and the opinion of some random law student is supposed to have the same weight as actual scientists who spend their careers studying human intelligence, then it’s a completely useless “debate.”  It’s like letting toddlers debate their parents on what’s more nutritious, ice cream or spinach, because you’re excluding actual facts and evidence from the debate in favor of Volokh’s layman’s opinion.

Comment #44: Mnemosyne  on  05/03  at  05:53 PM

Also, Ms. Kate:

5.  Most “black” African-Americans have considerable European heritage, often more than half. 

For only one example, Henry Louis Gates discovered by researching his own family tree that, despite his outward appearance, he has more Irish ancestors than African ones.  Barack Obama is probably much more African genetically than the vast majority of African-Americans whose families have been here more than two or three generations.

Comment #45: Mnemosyne  on  05/03  at  05:57 PM

JAQing off is the perfect way for people to make some baseless, racist claim, then play the victim when people get mad. “I was just asking questions! Why are you trying to police my thoughts? Why are you trying to supress my free speech? Are we not allowed to even question this?”

Comment #46: Ashley Herzog  on  05/03  at  06:03 PM

Consider as well that many European immigrants from Spain, Portugal, and Southern Italy/Sicily are also of African descent in part, due to the activities of Northern Africans in these regions of the Mediterranean.

Comment #47: Ms Kate  on  05/03  at  06:12 PM

4. There are many white Americans with considerable African-American heritage.

Good point.

And, historically speaking, I don’t know if there are white Europeans with more of a meathead reputation than my Varangian ancestors.  I object to being lumped in with them.

Comment #48: keshmeshi  on  05/03  at  06:25 PM

Thirty years ago, The Mismeasure of Man did a devastatingly thorough job of debunking all this crap.  One of the things the book discusses is all the dubious studies that were used not only against African-Americans, but against any ethnic group perceived as a threat to Real America.  It’s nothing more than a pseudo-scientific club for beating down minorities, something that becomes glaringly obvious when you look at some of the minorities that used to get this treatment.

For instance, a hundred years ago, IQ tests were widely used to “prove” the mental inferiority of Italian immigrants.  Today, no one thinks of Italian-Americans as a separate non-white race, much less one noted for low intelligence (although I guess if you watch “Jersey Shore” you might start wondering).  But at the time there were studies claiming that the Italian “race” was 20 to 30 IQ points below the white “race.”  These studies were used to promote discrimination against Italian-Americans and laws barring Italians from immigrating.  Eastern Europeans were also declared a separate “race” mentally inferior to whites.  That these scientific findings happened to “prove” the unfitness of the two biggest ethnic groups immigrating to the U.S. at the time was, of course, pure coincidence.

Anyway, did that dude just claim that Jews are genetically inclined to like money?  He seriously went these?  That’s not even regular bigotry; it’s hilarious cartoon bigotry.  I guess he thinks I’m genetically inclined to beat people with a shillelagh for stealing me Lucky Charms.

Comment #49: Shaenon  on  05/03  at  06:29 PM

He’s Jewish, Shaenon.  And you’re right—-it’s cartoon bigotry.  He was floating it to pretend that he’s arguing in good faith and willing to take his lumps.  But by floating something he knows that his audience will find preposterous, he revealed that he is in fact not arguing in good faith.

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/03  at  07:50 PM

jensen lumps them all together as one “race”, as he does hispanics (what about the indiginous peoples of mexico and SA, that intermarried with the spaniards?), not to mention all the interbreeding of whites and blacks, in the US. in sum, his work is flawed right from the start, and rightfully carries little or no weight in the actual scientific community. anything based on it inherently suffers from those same flaws. pun intended.

He says straight out that is race definitions are loose. Big whoop. He also has the 30+ years of testing and identifying trends in the population as a whole and they have tested a hell of a lot of people. That buys anyone a lot of slack. I think a lot of people might be unclear on how race gets counted in a lot of studies. You write down what you are or the psychologist writes down what you think you are. Unsurprising the Irish say they are Irish, the Jews say that they are Jewish and so on. 

Jensen is a heavyweight in the scientific community or at least in the subset of the community that is psychology (if we are willing to call psychologists scientists) and i don’t say that because I admire him in anyway. There are a couple of ways we weigh them in psychology. The first is the amount of times their articles get referenced. Jensen gets referenced a lot and when people reference him they take him seriously. Related to that is the journals his articles get published in, he’s in the big ones for his field. The second is impact on the non academic world. Check out his wikipedia. The third and often least mentioned is the amount of funding his research projects get. Jensen is rolling in it. The fourth is the prestige of the university an academic teaches in. He’s a professor at Berkeley. 

Its easy to write off a bunch of ignorant students who don’t know anything about intelligence or genetics. Its quite another thing to think you can debunk a big deal academic in a few paragraphs when he has spent his entire professional life studying the topic in question and his work has appeared in Zeus only knows how many highly regarded peer review journals.

I’m not here to defend his results or to advocate for his position. If the posts were just mocking right wingers for being ignorant I wouldn’t bother to even mention Jensen but they also bring in the academic debate about race and intelligence and while the students may be trivial opponents so to speak Jensen is not and a lot of hand waving doesn’t make the enormous body of research disappear.

To be quite frank I really don’t care for IQ tests and I would tend to agree with Amanda that it isn’t much good as concept. However if anyone does think IQ and intelligence are related to one another as very many psychologists do it is a very troubling body of research. I can’t remember who but someone in the other thread posted an interesting article about the flynn effect and its worth a read. Happily enough Flynn’s article in psychological review is available online here   http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/rev1082346.pdf

Comment #51: pharmakos  on  05/03  at  08:11 PM

Your description of JAQing behavior is remarkably similar to behavior I’ve observed from less attentive classmates who felt entitled to disrupt/waste the class’ time by incessantly asking the same question in a given lecture….even after the Professor and classmates have explained and settled the matter to death or who insist their stubbornly held interpretations of a given historical period is correct…despite clear evidence to the contrary (i.e. Campus Marxists/Maoists who insisted that The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution wasn’t as bad as mainstream scholarship would have it…...even when mainland Chinese historians have agreed that those incidents were total disasters to the Chinese people and society). 

These are the same types of students who’d then wonder why the Prof and many classmates won’t take them very seriously and later, have limited sympathy and patience when they complain about getting crappy grades for “negative class participation” or submitting essays and exams which clearly showed they didn’t pay attention/chose to ignore critical information from class readings, lecture/discussions, and research sources.  LOL

Comment #52: exholt  on  05/03  at  08:23 PM

“by floating something he knows that his audience will find preposterous”

Which is not to say that the stereotype of Jews liking money isn’t alive and well, one hopes.

Comment #53: Mandolin  on  05/03  at  08:28 PM

Here’s a handy chart of Internet argument techniques, courtesy of Cracked. #7 seems pertinent.

http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/

Comment #54: vitaminC  on  05/03  at  08:41 PM

Of course not, but I suspect strongly the Volokh was floating something he knows is stupid and expects his audience will believe is stupid.  He’s not interested in actually entertaining that question.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/03  at  08:47 PM

Which is not to say that the stereotype of Jews liking money isn’t alive and well, one hopes.

It is, but it’s really hoary, and it’s absurdly obvious that liking money—or being a big old racist, the other possible “genetic” trait he suggested for himself—isn’t genetic.  Like Amanda says, he picked those examples because they’re silly and don’t present a serious threat to his own self-worth.

If I were Jewish, I think I’d be very, very, very wary of pseudo-scientific studies purporting to “prove” the biological inferiority of a particular ethnic group, but I’m Irish Catholic, what the hell do I know?  (Although the innate mental inferiority of the Irish was used in England to justify allowing Irish peasants to starve to death in the Great Potato Famine.  This shit predates the Stanford-Binet.)

Comment #56: Shaenon  on  05/03  at  09:06 PM

If the posts were just mocking right wingers for being ignorant I wouldn’t bother to even mention Jensen but they also bring in the academic debate about race and intelligence and while the students may be trivial opponents so to speak Jensen is not and a lot of hand waving doesn’t make the enormous body of research disappear.

The enormous body of research does nothing to prove that there is a genetic reason why test scores are lower for African-Americans than they are for other Americans.  There are many, many possible non-genetic reasons for those lower scores, like stereotype threat, cultural bias, and other well-studied social phenomena.

If Jensen looked at, say, the interesting boost in black students’ test scores after Obama’s inauguration and still claimed that differences in test scores are due to genetics, he would be a fucking moron.  As would you for defending him.  However,  I have a feeling that you’re misrepresenting and/or misreading Jensen’s position regarding race, genetics and intelligence if you think he is supportive of Volokh’s claim (sorry, his “question”) that African-Americans score lower on tests because of their genes.

Comment #57: Mnemosyne  on  05/03  at  09:09 PM

I’m not misrepresenting him on purpose. He published a lot of work and you can only shorthand that so much so I am misrepresting him by default but its not like I haven’t read important pieces or chapters in textbooks were his views are discussed in some depth so its not like I’m talking out of my ass.

Seriously though he argues that IQ is at least 50% hereditary. In some places he has said its more like 70%. You don’t have to take my word for it though. If the article is painful to read the wikipedia summary isn’t awful. Its wikipedia so something something grain of salt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Jensen and its been sometime since I read the flynn article I posted but if I recall correctly they do bring up Jensen and his findings in some detail if you want a hostile take on them. And from the Jensen article I posted I give this brief but inflammatory quote from the discussion Within the United States, the mean Black–White group difference in IQ has
not changed significantly over the past 100 years despite significant improvements
in the conditions of Black Americans.
I’ll let you read in what he is implying and bear in mind that he has reviewed most of the research done so I don’t think its ok for you to claim that he’s dead wrong about all the evidence unless you are an intelligence researcher with a meta analysis that’s going to be published soon. If it got past peer review in multiple important journals and is incredibly controversial he probably isn’t bullshitting about all the studies he is referencing. On the other hand stranger things have happened. There was a really bizarre case of falsified results in Britain in the 70s or 80s if I recall correctly. Jensen does try to stay away from saying what he thinks the real world implications should be after he nearly got burned at the stake for saying headstart was pointless. 

Just to be clear again. I don’t defend him because I don’t agree with him but I think its foolish not to take him seriously or believe that similar ideas about why do black people often not perform as well on IQ tests didn’t occur to him. I think IQ is kind of daft so I don’t really feel a lot of anxiety about what he has to say. Its really only an issue if you think intelligence and IQ are related. 

I don’t really care about what Volokh thinks. Rightwing noise is just that.

Comment #58: pharmakos  on  05/03  at  09:50 PM

Ah should have adjusted the format after copying and pasting to avoid horrible looking paragraph syndrome.

Comment #59: pharmakos  on  05/03  at  09:52 PM

There’s a whole other side to this debate: Just what, if anything, does intelligence (however you define it) have to do with how good or worthwhile a person you are?

Intelligence is a morally neutral quality that can be used for good or evil. (So is courage, which is a concept less accepted since it goes against decades of John Wayne movies.) In fact, intelligent evil people can do a lot more damage than dumb ones. Think graffiti on garage door vs. computer virus.

I went to Stanford while William Shockley was ensconced in his tenure (for having helped invent the transistor)  and spouting all sorts of nonsense about how dumb black people should be paid not to procreate. One day our psychology professor said to us, “Imagine that you are an angel of the Lord, and you have a mission to make sure the people on Earth who cause the most trouble don’t reproduce.

“Intelligence might be one of the things you look at. You might look at some of the things that intelligent people have designed over the years. Things that are used in sophisticated missile systems.” Pause. “Like transistors.”

Loud laughter.

“Now, I’m not suggesting that Shockley be sterilized…”

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Comment #60: Bitter Scribe  on  05/03  at  10:00 PM

Not to blog whore, but I’d like to point out that IQ tests have been used to “prove” inferiority of this or that group throughout history. It’s never amounted to anything other than wishful thinking from racist bullshitters.

http://ashleyherzog.blogspot.com/2010/05/genetic-inferiority-argument-is-nothing.html

Comment #61: Ashley Herzog  on  05/03  at  10:19 PM

Bitter, I think that’s probably not a road you want to walk down.  Just because intelligence has nothing to do with moral worth doesn’t mean it’s not valuable.  Creativity has no moral component, but it’s valuable.  Mathematical ability may not be intrinsically moral, but it’s important.  You’re not going to convince anyone of much by saying it doesn’t matter.  And you run the strong risk of convincing people that you believe in intelligence differences between groups, but you’re denying it matters. 

Steadier ground is to suggest that yes, what we do with our brains does matter to society.  But “intelligence” isn’t a single, measurable quantity, and the heritability of it is way overblown.

Comment #62: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/03  at  10:26 PM

I’d guess the reason is that not only is Barrack Obama black -it’s obvious that he’s much much much smarter than his opponents and last guy who was in the oval office.

Nope - the last guy in office was a hidden genus who was unfairly maligned by his lie-bral critics - after all, he was a successful businessman.  And the present incumbent just talks fancy but has never achieved anything in the real world, so he’s not all that smart.

Opinions seen elsewhere in teh swamps. Never underestimate the willingness to embrace delusion of the wingnut faithful.

Comment #63: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/03  at  10:36 PM

i spent a year as a graduate student at the university of texas at austin, where a substantial number of the faculty in the individual differences program worked on IQ related research.

it’s worth noting that stephanie grace worked with a sociologist who studies things like the impact of affirmative action on admissions, etc. 

what she did, in effect, was state what - at the time i was at UT (mid 90s) - was the consensus view of the faculty of the ID department at that time - IQ measures intelligence, there are IQ differences across races, etc.  these were among the people who signed

the notion, expressed in this thread and others, that:

Actually, there’s entire fields of scientific study about how the brain works and develops. We actually know quite a bit about cognition and what he likes to call “intelligence”.  It’s just that what we know makes it clear that this debate is stupid.

this is simply wrong.

here’s a paper i found on pubmed in less than 30 seconds:

Behav Genet. 2009 Sep;39(5):461-71. Epub 2009 Jul 25.
Combining nonlinear biometric and psychometric models of cognitive abilities.
Tucker-Drob EM, Harden KP, Turkheimer E.

Department of Psychology, University of Virginia, P.O. Box 400400, Charlottesville, VA, 22904-4400, USA. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
Abstract
It is well-established that genetic factors account for large proportions of individual differences in multiple cognitive abilities. It is also well-established that individual differences in performance on many different cognitive ability measures are strongly correlated. Recent empirical investigations, however, have suggested two interesting qualifications to these well-established findings: Genetic variance in cognitive abilities is higher in richer home environments (gene-by-environment interaction), and common variance in different cognitive abilities is lower at higher levels of overall ability (nonlinear factor structure). Although they have been investigated independently, these two phenomena may interact, because richer environments are routinely associated with higher ability levels. Using simulation we demonstrate how un-modeled nonlinear factor structure can obscure interpretation of gene-by-environment interaction. We then reanalyze data from the National Collaborative Perinatal Project, previously used by Turkheimer et al. (2003; Psychol Science), with a two-step method to model both phenomena.

i think pharmakon is making a good point about the level of intellectual rigor in modern debates on topics such as the predictive validity of the theoretical construct, g, and the heritability of IQ, and so on.

while people are falling over themselves to point out that “race” does not exist, populations geneticists continue to study genomic differences among “human population groups” which map fairly well onto the conventional racial categories on our census forms.

here are some examples, cribbed from a list on the Above the Law site about the controversy (galtonian, pg. 25):

Identification and analysis of genomic regions with large between-population differentiation in humans
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/full...

Natural selection has driven population differentiation in modern humans
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18246066

How culture shaped the human genome: bringing genetics and the human sciences together
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20084086

The role of geography in human adaptation
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi%...

Genotype, haplotype and copy-number variation in worldwide human populations
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18288195

The genetics of human adaptation: hard sweeps, soft sweeps, and polygenic adaptation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20178769

Signals of recent positive selection in a worldwide sample of human populations
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/19/5/826.full.p...

the notion that scientists who do this work, all of which orbits the question of whether there is a heritable component to population differences in cognitive ability, are “JAQ-ing off” is unfair. i found the article about the Flynn Effect interesting and persuasive, and those studies are now an important part of the debate about genes and intelligence.

however, suggesting that “what we know” makes research like this “stupid” ignores the state of current research on the topics bearing on the possibility of population variation in cognitive ability.

Assertions like ” But “intelligence” isn’t a single, measurable quantity, and the heritability of it is way overblown” require far more defending in an academic context than is assumed here.

Comment #64: ochlocrat  on  05/03  at  10:40 PM

Kind of like physicists who decide that everybody who works with socially complicated scientific phenomenon MUST be doing it wrong and then oversimplify their idealized analyses into extremely biased and meaningless junk.  It never occurs to them that biostatisticians and epidemiologists would make it so simple IF ACTUALLY WERE THAT SIMPLE!

You might wanna ask physicists if they can solve the n-body problem where n is the sample size used in medical samples…

Comment #65: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/03  at  10:41 PM

oops - sorry about the sentence fragment above (“people who signed the statement…” about the Bell Curve around that controversy).

also, consider this point, and counterpoint

closer to home (for me), theoretical constructs like fluid intelligence are not uncommon in contemporary neuroscience:

Hum Brain Mapp. 2009 Feb;30(2):497-510.
Differential patterns of cortical activation as a function of fluid reasoning complexity.
Perfetti B, Saggino A, Ferretti A, Caulo M, Romani GL, Onofrj M.

Department of Oncology and Neurosciences, University of Chieti-Pescara, Chieti, Italy. .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
Abstract
Fluid intelligence (gf) refers to abstract reasoning and problem solving abilities. It is considered a human higher cognitive factor central to general intelligence (g). The regions of the cortex supporting gf have been revealed by recent bioimaging studies and valuable hypothesis on the neural correlates of individual differences have been proposed. However, little is known about the interaction between individual variability in gf and variation in cortical activity following task complexity increase. To further investigate this, two samples of participants (high-IQ, N = 8; low-IQ, N = 10) with significant differences in gf underwent two reasoning (moderate and complex) tasks and a control task adapted from the Raven progressive matrices. Functional magnetic resonance was used and the recorded signal analyzed between and within the groups. The present study revealed two opposite patterns of neural activity variation which were probably a reflection of the overall differences in cognitive resource modulation: when complexity increased, high-IQ subjects showed a signal enhancement in some frontal and parietal regions, whereas low-IQ subjects revealed a decreased activity in the same areas. Moreover, a direct comparison between the groups’ activation patterns revealed a greater neural activity in the low-IQ sample when conducting moderate task, with a strong involvement of medial and lateral frontal regions thus suggesting that the recruitment of executive functioning might be different between the groups. This study provides evidence for neural differences in facing reasoning complexity among subjects with different gf level that are mediated by specific patterns of activation of the underlying fronto-parietal network.

that’s what scientists do - create an operational definition (gf) they can measure, and work from there. it’s also why the popular notions of “race” or “intelligence” are unsuited to use in rigorous work.

Comment #66: ochlocrat  on  05/03  at  10:48 PM

Consider as well that many European immigrants from Spain, Portugal, and Southern Italy/Sicily are also of African descent in part, due to the activities of Northern Africans in these regions of the Mediterranean.

My God - I may be the whitest person in this newsgroups.

Still don’t like Sarah Silverman, though.

Comment #67: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/03  at  10:56 PM

<i> Assertions like “ But “intelligence” isn’t a single, measurable quantity, and the heritability of it is way overblown” require far more defending in an academic context than is assumed here. <i>

I am kind of on board with the assertion though. I’m not aware of an IQ test that measures frontal lobe functions like planning, metacognitive skills except by inferring that they must be used in problems with clear start and goal states, divergent thinking and the interpretation of ambiguous situations. I can’t even guess how you would measure those in any kind of standardized way and when we talk about intelligence in the real world those are the things we care about. What bothers me most about the Intelligence is IQ people is how tied into what they can measure being all that is counted as intelligence.

Comment #68: pharmakos  on  05/03  at  10:58 PM

“Still don’t like Sarah Silverman, though.”

I watched the first ever episode of her show and thought it was really really funny and then told lots of people she is incredible. They only caught subsequent episodes and i felt like such a dick.

Comment #69: pharmakos  on  05/03  at  11:00 PM

@pharmakon:

broadly speaking, my problem is not with the assertion itself.  i don’t think that g, for example, really captures “intelligence” in the way that most people understand the term, or the way it is often used, just as you point out.  lack of impulse control, for example, is the fast lane to dumbassery as most people understand it.

heh. (evo-psych bonus!)

however, many of the arguments in this thread assume that there is a Gardnerian, anti-hereditarian consensus among scientists - a groups that includes psychometricians and behavioral and population geneticists - which does not exist. the existence of those specialties to some extent presupposes a method to that particular madness.

the sophistication of modern scientific methods deserves to be defended. “i don’t have to know what factor analysis is to know that you can’t measure intelligence!” doesn’t cut much ice in peer review.

Comment #70: ochlocrat  on  05/03  at  11:26 PM

there is no such thing as a genetically “jewish” race. there are two primary groups, ashkenazi & sephardic, from two almost completely different areas of europe. the original 12 tribes were themselves comprised of a host of different peoples, all slaves in egypt, all availing themselves of the opportunity to leave, with moses and his gang. they were, if you will, something of a “heinz 57” polyglot, all of whom agreed to take up a monotheistic belief system, that whole “ten (or so) commandments” thing
Comment #43: cpinva on 05/03 at 03:25 PM

There’s no evidence of Jews having been held in slavery in Egypt, or anywhere else.  The slavery stories the Jews have (in the Bible) don’t correlate with any Egyptian records, not even close, and the Egyptians were really good at record-keeping, being the original bureaucrats.


One of the most ridiculous statements in the Rushton-Jensen article:  “The culture-only (0% genetic–100% environmental) and the hereditarian (50% genetic–50% environmental) models of the causes of mean Black–White differences in cognitive ability are compared and contrasted across 10 categories of evidence….”

Since when is it either 100 percent environment or 50 percent genetic and 50 percent environmental?  What idiot thinks it has to be 50-50? Aside from Jensen, that is.  Instead of saying “what ratio of environmental and genetic influence is found on cognitive ability” he expresses it as a binary.

The amount of money Jensen gets might only indicate how pleasant his theories are to the white people at Harvard and how well he interprets “it’s the environment” as “it’s the parents, who happen to be Black.”

There are in fact studies that show that Africans are better than Americans at tasks that are culturally favored in Africa, for example, storytelling, which requires sequential thinking and what people call emotional intelligence.

This reminds me of the comparison of male and female intellectual skills—figure out if there’s one men tend to do better at (like rotating 3-d objects in space), and call that “intelligence.”  Take stuff like “predicting what human beings will think and feel about something” and call it “feminine intuition.”  And/or “people skills, suitable for those who work with children and sick people.”  You know, the useless ones.  N.B. I say this as someone who’s really great at the 3-D shapes and still gets unexpectedly caught by human responses on a regular basis, even after really trying to understand them. 

I don’t think people with good abstract intelligence are any more likely to be bad at concrete/emotional intelligence—it’s just that people who are, become the poster children for “if you’re so smart howcum you ain’t rich huh?”

Intelligence has a native component of some kind, but developing your intelligence is a social and repetitive/familiarization process.  If you don’t get help learning about how screws and gears work, you’re going to be at a disadvantage in a test that asks you “which way does the gear go?”  Change the task to something to do with sewing or cooking and the results might be suprising. 

The extent to which researchers assume everyone on the same grade level, or with the same exposure to particular academic courses, has the same training is just baffling to me.  People learn from friends and relatives and popular media just as much as from school. 

Having a positive role model really helps, too—I imagine knowing my father used slide rules all the time at work made me think it was (a) useful and (b) learnable, so that it wasn’t a challenge to me to imagine myself using one when they said we’d be learning about them in seventh or eighth grade.  My father wasn’t a “girls can do anything boys can do” kind of guy, but he held back on saying I couldn’t do it, apparently a new pattern, according to my older siblings.  I sometimes imagine what I’d be like today had he been active, rather than just not negative, about my abilities; had he encouraged me to work with him on cars; had he shown me how to use power tools.

Comment #71: oldfeminist  on  05/04  at  12:00 AM

Ooops, “Intelligence has a native component of some kind, but developing your intelligence is a social and repetitive/familiarization process.”

Should be “Intelligence has a native component of some kind, but developing your intelligence is a social and/or repetitive/familiarization process.”

Not everyone learns well socially.

Comment #72: oldfeminist  on  05/04  at  12:06 AM

@oldfeminist: 

it’s worth pointing out that the money jensen receives has less to do with pleasing “white people at harvard” and far, far more to do with these people.  (the founder, it should be noted, was a harvard graduate).

while i’ve been at pains to defend scientists who wish to use particular tools (e.g., Raven’s progressive matrices, gf, etc.) that they in turn must defend as part of the review process, the most prominent race scientists do have something very much in common with climate denialists - right-wing funding sources.

this will have shocked no one, of course.

Comment #73: ochlocrat  on  05/04  at  12:17 AM

Consider as well that many European immigrants from Spain, Portugal, and Southern Italy/Sicily are also of African descent in part, due to the activities of Northern Africans in these regions of the Mediterranean.

My God - I may be the whitest person in this newsgroups.

Still don’t like Sarah Silverman, though.
Comment #67: Phoenician in a time of Romans on 05/03 at 08:56 PM

I’m a blonde, fair-skinned, blue-eyed, very White Norwegian, Swedish, German, Danish, English, Scottish and French.  Though I do tan if I am careful, thanks to the Norwegian bit. 

But those folks all came from Africa, as did yours, cousin!  The adaptations we made to live in different physical surroundings are the most visible differences, but they are by no means the most relevant.  There are hard and soft places to live across the globe.  And easy places to live invite human competition, which makes them hard in a different kind of way.

I haven’t watched much of Sarah Silverman’s show, but her suggestion to sell the Vatican gold to feed all the hungry and help all the needy people sounds good to me.  In the “power couple” dynamics she is the more charged ion.

I forgot to add way up there that being “cheap” is actually considered a positive by many.  When Volokh suggests “Jews are (say), on average, genetically predisposed to be more acquisitive” he isn’t dissing his own “race.”  Since when is taking care of your family and yourself a bad thing?  He may be taking after Calvin Coolidge, 1925, “Economy is idealism in its most practical form.”

Comment #74: oldfeminist  on  05/04  at  12:25 AM

Pharmakos, you are continuing to confuse the arguments being made here.  Nobody disputes that race exists, what we dispute is the notion that race is a genetically defined and testable construct.

Looking at differences across socially-defined and self-reported racial categories is scientifically appropriate because it uses the social constructs of race.  Saying that blacks are genetically distinguishable from whites, let alone genetically inferior to whites, is pure unscientific bullshit.

Comment #75: Ms Kate  on  05/04  at  12:33 AM

think it might be a good idea for every say, high school student, to have one of those tests that shows you what your genetic make-up is.  These kind of “questions” couldn’t be raised if everyone realized that there aren’t any genetically “pure” folks or groups
Comment 6—elisabeth51

It would never sell, too much risk we’d learn that white racists’ kids aren’t “genetically pure,” they’re like part-Irish or part-Jewish or something. Or part-African.

Usually what they find is some sort of correlation, people with X trait are likely to also possess Y trait.
Comment 33—alysia

You’re right about trends and averages, but I wanted to address this. It’s true that a lot of correlations are reported in the media under headlines that suggest cause, and the two are often conflated in popular usage, but it doesn’t follow, and it’s not correct, that science doesn’t, won’t, or can’t demonstrate causation at all.

Comment #76: Hershele Ostropoler  on  05/04  at  12:35 AM

I’ll just say what I usually say when people bring up this nonsense. While much was made of The Bell Curve, when it came out, you know which group knew immediately that it was crap? People who work with gifted children, and deal with IQ tests all the time. They know that there are so many things that can go wrong and bring down a person’s score, you’ll never be able to control for all of them, so attributing the mean IQ of a racial group to inherent genetic differences is just silly. And that doesn’t even take into account the fact that race is an ever-changing social construct and there are no significant biological differences between races anyway.

Comment #77: Liz212  on  05/04  at  12:35 AM

The adaptations we made to live in different physical surroundings are the most visible differences, but they are by no means the most relevant.  There are hard and soft places to live across the globe.  And easy places to live invite human competition, which makes them hard in a different kind of way.

Most all of humanity made its living in some form of subsistence agriculture or hunting/gathering until very recently. Even those large medieval and classical era cities depended on a large proportion of the population to occupy themselves with making food. Especially in Europe, I cannot possibly imagine what selective pressures would have existed there that would make them more intelligent, especially in such a short time frame of the last few hundred years. The explanation for any intelligence differences between races simply doesn’t make any sense: if anything most people would have guessed that 1000 years ago, western and northern European whites were starting with the least intelligent genetic stock compared to their neighbors, and the selective pressures/incentives were selecting against intelligence, not in favor of it. Few if any of us came from any sort of impressive genetic stock: go back a few hundred years, and odds are we’re descended from subsistence farmers.

Now, I do believe that there is a such thing as measurable intelligence. And as I get older, I really see that some people were born with the benefit of it, which makes their lives a lot easier in a lot of ways to the point where they don’t even notice the benefit of that privilege, and some people weren’t, whereas when I was younger I probably would have placed more stock in hard work to figure things out and divided the world up into the persistent and the lazy. Now I’m more at peace with the idea that people have their own core competencies and capacities, and that’s the way they are.

Comment #78: Tyro  on  05/04  at  12:43 AM

Since when is it either 100 percent environment or 50 percent genetic and 50 percent environmental?  What idiot thinks it has to be 50-50? Aside from Jensen, that is.  Instead of saying “what ratio of environmental and genetic influence is found on cognitive ability” he expresses it as a binary.

You get the 50\50 in a lot of places. The gene and environment interactions are investigated a bit further into the article but I’m tired and I’m not going to go looking through it again to find them. Its much easier to just say that in the Minnesota twins study they were able to tease out gene and environment issues because they were able to examine both mono-zygotic and dizygotic twins who were reared together and reared apart and they said 70\30 but then I recall reading in the Sternberg textbook 50\50 for that study so there is probably another paper i never looked at. That was pretty much just about twins and heritability rather than race. Anyway my point is that whether you agree with the or not they don’t just pluck the numbers out of the air.

right-wing funding sources

Where does it say they are conservatives? In the about us section they just say they don’t want to be in bed with the left or right and generally are unwelcoming of anyone with an agenda. Or do you know something about them?

Comment #79: pharmakos  on  05/04  at  12:50 AM

#76 I didn’t mean to say that science can’t establish causality—I know that there are statistical tests for causality, and that causality can be established based on theory and so on, I meant that people think that “on average two groups have different levels of some trait” means “everyone of one group is better at that trait than everyone of the other group.”

Comment #80: alysia  on  05/04  at  12:51 AM

Pharmakos, you are continuing to confuse the arguments being made here.  Nobody disputes that race exists, what we dispute is the notion that race is a genetically defined and testable construct.
Looking at differences across socially-defined and self-reported racial categories is scientifically appropriate because it uses the social constructs of race.  Saying that blacks are genetically distinguishable from whites, let alone genetically inferior to whites, is pure unscientific bullshit.

sorry but where did I say any of that?

Comment #81: pharmakos  on  05/04  at  12:54 AM

@ms kate:

if you had access to a DNA sample, and had to guess whether it came from a black or a white person with reference to existing genetic databases, you could do so with an accuracy of [x]%.

if you had access to DNA samples from 10 whites, and 10 blacks, and had to guess which group sample was which, you could do so with an accuracy of [>x]%. 

for group samples of 100, [>>>x]%. 

does that constitute “genetically distinguishable”, in your view? 

in effect, the question is how well correlated the social construct “race” is with genetically defined “human population groups”, and the answer is a statistical one.

for the answer, you’d have to ask a population geneticist.

(note that genetic distance maps of human genomic differences are typically derived from non-coding regions of DNA, and thus do not include any of the genes coding for the physical markers of race).

race has only very recently become a genetically defined and testable construct, but as is true of statistical constructs, the laws of large numbers apply. the fact that we cannot predict the paths of individual molecules doesn’t mean the laws of thermodynamics are forever out of reach.

Comment #82: ochlocrat  on  05/04  at  01:01 AM

in lieu of asking a population geneticist:

Neil Risch argues: “One could make the same arguments about sex and age! ... you can undermine any definitional system… In a recent study… we actually had a higher discordance rate between self-reported sex and markers on the X chromosome [than] between genetic structure [based on microsatellite markers] versus [racial] self-description, [which had a] 99.9% concordance… So you could argue that sex is also a problematic category. And there are differences between sex and gender; self-identification may not be correlated with biology perfectly. And there is sexism. And you can talk about age the same way. A person’s chronological age does not perfectly correspond to his biological age for a variety of reasons, both inherited and non-inherited. Perhaps just using someone’s actual birth year is not a very good way of measuring age. Does that mean we should throw it out? ... Any category you come up with is going to be imperfect, but that doesn’t preclude you from using it or the fact that it has utility”(Gitschier 2005).

there is also Lewontin’s fallacy.

Comment #83: ochlocrat  on  05/04  at  01:11 AM

if anything most people would have guessed that 1000 years ago, western and northern European whites were starting with the least intelligent genetic stock compared to their neighbors, and the selective pressures/incentives were selecting against intelligence, not in favor of it

I’m not sure why you’d say that. Even recognizing that “intelligence” is an extremely hazy concept, why would it (for any definition) not be useful in the Middle Ages?

Comment #84: Rebecca  on  05/04  at  01:36 AM

Where does it say they are conservatives? In the about us section they just say they don’t want to be in bed with the left or right and generally are unwelcoming of anyone with an agenda. Or do you know something about them?

The SPLC lists them as a hate group since they spend a lot of money funding anti-immigration and eugenicist groups and were explicitly founded to prove that white people are superior to other races.

You really, really don’t want to defend the work of people who take money from the Pioneer Fund.  It’s like claiming that someone who took money from Philip Morris was totally unbiased when he said that smoking doesn’t cause cancer.

Comment #85: Mnemosyne  on  05/04  at  02:17 AM

While much was made of The Bell Curve, when it came out, you know which group knew immediately that it was crap? People who work with gifted children, and deal with IQ tests all the time. They know that there are so many things that can go wrong and bring down a person’s score, you’ll never be able to control for all of them, so attributing the mean IQ of a racial group to inherent genetic differences is just silly. And that doesn’t even take into account the fact that race is an ever-changing social construct and there are no significant biological differences between races anyway.

Another group who’d probably call BS on the Bell Curve….or even the very validity of using IQ as a meaningful measure of intelligence are students who attended schools with a high concentration of kids labeled “highly gifted”.  One of the first things I noticed at my urban public magnet….and far more so at the Ivy/Ivy-level colleges I’ve visited/taken courses at are a disturbingly high number of people IME who excel on IQ and other psychometric tests and being highly socio-economically privileged….and yet are good at little else in school and more so…in life because they allowed their “superior IQ” status to get to their heads too much. 

Maybe I’m weird….but I’ve seen and known far too many people with sky high IQ or other psychometric test scores who ended up sucking at everything else…including college level academics and adulthood.  It is one reason why I subscribe to the opinion that intelligence is not only defined by a set of innate qualities and traits, but also the ability to harness them toward successful accomplishments of short and long-term goals. 

I forgot to add way up there that being “cheap” is actually considered a positive by many.

Where do they exist? Where can I meet them?

Seems like for most of my life, people have considered “cheapness” to be a bad thing….maybe that’s the reason why so many of the socio-economically privileged who tend to disparage “cheapness” like some former colleagues are saddled with ridiculous levels of debt…

Comment #86: exholt  on  05/04  at  02:40 AM

a disturbingly high number of people IME who excel on IQ and other psychometric tests and being highly socio-economically privileged….and yet are good at little else in school and more so…in life because they allowed their “superior IQ” status to get to their heads too much.

God, I hate this canard.

Comment #87: Mandolin  on  05/04  at  07:02 AM

Where do they exist? Where can I meet them?

New England. Among owners of small businesses. Most anyone who has a Ph.D.

Comment #88: Tyro  on  05/04  at  09:05 AM

God, I hate this canard.

Why?

Comment #89: exholt  on  05/04  at  10:23 AM

Re: Jensen. S. J. Gould had lots to say about him (in a later edition of the Mismeasure of Man). It was all quite devastating. The only way a scientist could survive that kind of take-down is if he had lots of entrenched interests to back him up - which the Mismeasure of Man pointed out was the only reason this “research” gets done and publicized. It’s just a pity that one of these men is still alive and the other not.

Pharmakos, go take your “I’m not defending him! I just think he’s a reputable and established scientist and we should respect his work!” shtick somewhere else.

Comment #90: CassieC  on  05/04  at  11:12 AM

It’s the old, “So, are you still beating your wife?”

Comment #91: ttintagel  on  05/04  at  11:28 AM

I think IQ tests were originally designed to assess special needs students and at some point people realized they were also good for justifying that white people are smarter than everyone else, and the rest is history as Chronicled in the Bell Curve and the Mismeasure of Man. 

I think that is the danger with a lot of the student assesment tests being given, not that the tests are bad but that the results can be miss-used.

Comment #92: John Rove  on  05/04  at  11:45 AM

The fundamental problem with “race” as usually defined is that ethnic Irish, Chinese, and Arabs are descendants of a single clade, while people identified as “black” in American Culture involve at least three different clades.

Comment #93: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  12:02 PM

a disturbingly high number of people IME who excel on IQ and other psychometric tests and being highly socio-economically privileged….and yet are good at little else in school and more so…in life because they allowed their “superior IQ” status to get to their heads too much.

exholt, not to put too much of a point on it, but in your comments, you write as though you believe you are the only person we know of who attended an “urban public magnet school” and that the rest of us have little contact with those who have attended elite universities or achieved high scores on their various standardized tests. At the very least, it sounds like you’ve gone through life without being called on your bullshit very often.

There are plenty of commenters here who’ve been up front about the elite colleges they attended, and plenty of us could name many of others from all over the socio-economic spectrum who were always
high-achievers and are now the scientists/professors, doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs, chief software engineers, or VP-level-and-above executives. So while you should be happy that you managed to face a lot of academic and financial challenges in order to finally find success in the high-tech, fast-past world of Information Technology™, I’d be careful with who you tried to convince with
respect to your understanding of how the academic and professional world works and what high-achievers end up doing later in life.

There is a time when you can get away with mocking the achievements of those with more elite educations and better test scores than you had, and I’ve seen it happen, usually among high-level professionals who, despite an academic pedigree of lower-tier universities and colleges you’ve never heard of manage to rise to the top of their field. I don’t get the impression that you’re there, yet. It sounds a lot like you yourself pursued a less ambitious career path, anyway.

Look, within any group of teenage achievers will be some who burn out, go on the mommy track, find a mid-level niche and decide “this is good enough for me,” etc., but no one would ever claim that this is the norm or even common. We all get a wide berth here on pandagon to vent about our personal issues in the comments section, exholt, but I’d advise you to be a bit more careful in making your claims about what you think happens to the academic achievers and people who made it into top colleges, because not everyone is going to be such a gullible audience of such claims, especially if they are the ones you’re referring to. Even if you really want them to be true. Your sort of claims fall into an overall pattern of what we normally regard as red-state anti-intellectualism, where people seek to prove that, “those smart people really ain’t that smart!” and I regard yours with just as much regard as I do theirs.

Comment #94: Tyro  on  05/04  at  12:10 PM

New kid on the block. Hi all.

Two question for Amanda,

Given the high numbers numbers of JAQ-qers causing trouble, but presuming that there are some ppl whose chief mode of learning is asking questions (that is a rejectable presumption, of course):

(1) How low do you estimate there number as a percentage of all, shall we say, “question-happy” types (= the few that learn through question mode + the JAQ-qers)?

(2) If not ~0%, do you have any advice for us on how to distinguish between the two when they appear?

I’m not sure how to do it on the persistence of the questions alone. JAQ-qers are persistent, so was Socrates, and I don’t believe he was one. There are not many Socrates these days, or any days perhaps, but I would hate to miss one if one came along.

Though I’m interested mainly in Amanda’s take on the first, I’m happy to hear anybody’s suggestion on the second.

Comment #95: largo  on  05/04  at  12:15 PM

Pharmakos, go take your “I’m not defending him! I just think he’s a reputable and established scientist and we should respect his work!” shtick somewhere else.

Why don’t you take your “I can cite a book but neglect to describe its content and arguments because I only know the title ” schtick elsewhere.

And I’ll say it again. If you want to have a position on an academic debate you should know and understand the work both sides have done. The position I know what I think and everyone else is a moron is not a tenable position. This tendency to just brush off what someone said because they disagree is ridiculous because not everyone on the opposing side of a debate is George Bush or Sarah Palin mouthing off platitudes, inanities and insanities. And again I don’t think IQ is related to intelligence so I don’t care. What I do care about is having people be at least aware of the strongest version of the opposition and to understand that they have done considerable research.

Comment #96: pharmakos  on  05/04  at  01:42 PM

Two or three people in this discussion seem to be unhappy that the Pandagonians are dismissive of ideas that the field of academic psychology takes seriously.  If indeed we are talking about a field in which one is taken seriously thanks in part to Pharmakos’s last two criteria (money and prestigious employer), and one in which signers of the pro-Bell Curve statement (inc. Rushton and Gordon) are regarded as objective thinkers, and one in which a couple of experts refuted people who cite Gould’s critique of g with “Gould is a biologist with Marxist biases:  he cannot understand real science like we do,” how is the argument “You’re not engaging seriously with their discipline when you dismiss them” different from Terry Eagleton’s dismissal of Dawkins (to which the latter replied, “Most of us happily disavow fairies, astrology, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster without first immersing ourselves in books of Pastafarian theology . . . )?

Thanks to a commenter above, I looked into what the SPLC has to say about Jensen and his admirers.

Comment #97: Josh  on  05/04  at  02:40 PM

exholt, it’s true that IQ is not a predictor of success or happiness. However, I would say that Ivy league schools still have a huge proportion of students who are legacies, rich kids, or simply book smart, so these colleges are not exactly refuges for the profoundly gifted. While kids with +140 IQs often have trouble fitting in with peers because their social and emotional development is different than that of other kids, it doesn’t mean that they suck at social interaction or let their high IQs go to their heads. They’re still learning to negotiate their way through a world that often makes no sense to them on any level.

Comment #98: Liz212  on  05/04  at  02:53 PM

Well he’s professor emeritus at Berkeley which most people would assume is more important than Jesus College Kansas or whatever. I didn’t know anything about the pioneer foundation so thanks for the link but if you look at the researchers they have funded you will see some of the major names in psychology. I’m ambivalent on them at the moment.

That aside though getting published in major journals and getting cited a lot is the most important criteria and it leads to the others.

You might want to check out the reviews of Gould’s book. The he’s a marxist thing is hardly their only criteria for disliking him. http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushtonpdfs/Gould.pdf Most of it describes how he doesn’t pay attention to new studies and he’s wrong on the numbers

In any case its the hereditarians who have produced most of the studies and having produced empirical work usually counts more to most people than philosophical, historical, critical or theoretical pieces of work. Personally I prefer that kind but in the discipline empirical and replicable studies are the biggest things. Seeing as the hereditarian people have been the ones to actually produce data equating them to theologians is hardly fair.

Comment #99: pharmakos  on  05/04  at  02:59 PM

Ochlocrat, I read the abstracts you linked to, (which you did not, because two links are dead). I do not believe that they mean what you think they mean. Also, why don’t you find out what the real number is for correctly predicting what race someone belongs to, instead of using (x)? I’d be interested to know that. And you have to use race as currently defined in America; one of the abstracts you linked to used 29 different population groups, which wouldn’t fit our current definition of race.

Comment #100: Liz212  on  05/04  at  03:09 PM

I didn’t know anything about the pioneer foundation so thanks for the link but if you look at the researchers they have funded you will see some of the major names in psychology. I’m ambivalent on them at the moment.

Pioneer Fund

Scientific research

Many of the researchers whose findings support the hereditarian hypothesis of racial IQ disparity have received grants of varying sizes from the Pioneer Fund.[15] Large grantees, in order of amount received, are

  * Thomas J. Bouchard at the University of Minnesota. As compiled in 1997, the recipient of the largest amount of funding ($2.3 million USD) was Thomas J. Bouchard’s landmark twin study, the Minnesota Study of Identical Twins Reared Apart (MISTRA), better known as the Minnesota Twins Project. The Minnesota Twins Project compared identical and fraternal twins who had been brought up in different families. Another notable twin study that was partially funded by the fund is the Texas Adoption Project, which compared adopted children to their birth and adopted families. The studies, along with similar studies, have demonstrated that the heritabilities of intelligence and personality measures are 50 percent or more.
  * Arthur Jensen at the Institute for the Study of Educational Differences
  * J. Philippe Rushton at the University of Western Ontario is the current head of the fund since 2002. In 1999, Rushton used some of his grant money from the Pioneer fund to send out tens of thousands of copies of an abridged version of his book Race, Evolution and Behavior to social scientists in anthropology, psychology, and sociology, causing a controversy.[16] The book describes Rushton’s differential K theory. Tax records from 2000 show that his Charles Darwin Institute received $473,835—73% of that year’s grants.[2]
  * Roger Pearson at the Institute for the Study of Man. Eugenicist and anthropologist, founder of the Journal of Indo-European Studies,[17] received over a million dollars in grants in the eighties and the nineties.[6][15] Using the pseudonym of Stephan Langton, Pearson was the editor of The New Patriot, a short-lived magazine published in 1966–67 to conduct “a responsible but penetrating inquiry into every aspect of the Jewish Question,” which included articles such as “Zionists and the Plot Against South Africa,” “Early Jews and the Rise of Jewish Money Power,” and “Swindlers of the Crematoria.”.[15] The Northern League, an organization founded in England in 1958 by Pearson, supported Nazi ideologies and included former members of the Nazi Party.[6]
  * Richard Lynn at Ulster Institute for Social Research (also on Mankind Quarterly editorial board)
  * Linda Gottfredson at the University of Delaware.

The problem, as a friend of mine put it, is that you can’t devise a culturally-neutral IQ test, and without a tool that can account from cross-cultural differences and influences, you can assert that there may be genetic differences between populations, but you wouldn’t be able to measure it, let alone prove that it exists.

Comment #101: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/04  at  03:59 PM

  I forgot to add way up there that being “cheap” is actually considered a positive by many. 

Where do they exist? Where can I meet them?

Seems like for most of my life, people have considered “cheapness” to be a bad thing….maybe that’s the reason why so many of the socio-economically privileged who tend to disparage “cheapness” like some former colleagues are saddled with ridiculous levels of debt…
Comment #86: exholt on 05/04 at 12:40 AM

Well then, it sounds like you think being cheap is a positive.  Do you really think you’re the only one?

Comment #102: oldfeminist  on  05/04  at  04:27 PM

Well he’s professor emeritus at Berkeley which most people would assume is more important than Jesus College Kansas or whatever.

John Yoo has tenure at Berkeley.  Does that mean that there is some merit to his claim that we can legally torture people as long as we don’t actually kill them despite the numerous anti-torture treaties the US has signed?

Comment #103: Mnemosyne  on  05/04  at  04:36 PM

@103: Perhaps more importantly, can we use John Yoo to dismiss the entire field of law!

*sigh* Arguments for an exclusively nature or nurture view of what’s happening were obsolete as of the Grand Synthesis of Evolutionary Biology and Genetics about 60 years ago. The big questions in just about any field center on how much variance can be explained by each portion, and how do we understand the interaction between genetics and environment.

Arguments that specific ethnic groups or genetic clades within human populations have different distributions of intelligence is a much more controversial topic, and a lot of people who generally accept that IQ and measures something are understandably skeptical that we can isolate the variables to such an extent as to make such claims. I’m not convinced that all of the citations constitute endorsement.

Comment #104: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  05:15 PM

Here’s the Bollocks, so to speak:

Neuroscience is contributing to an understanding of the biological bases of human intelligence differences. This work is principally being conducted along two empirical fronts: genetics — quantitative and molecular — and brain imaging. Quantitative genetic studies have established that there are additive genetic contributions to different aspects of cognitive ability — especially general intelligence — and how they change through the lifespan. Molecular genetic studies have yet to identify reliably reproducible contributions from individual genes. Structural and functional brain-imaging studies have identified differences in brain pathways, especially parieto-frontal pathways, that contribute to intelligence differences. There is also evidence that brain efficiency correlates positively with intelligence.

Comment #105: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/04  at  05:23 PM

cpinva wrote:

the bottom line: ms. grace raised the issue.

No, she didn’t.  Look at the context here.  This is a follow-up to a previous conversation.  In this e-mail, she emphasized that *in contrast to what she had said* “she couldn’t rule out” genetic-based differences in intelligence.  That is, at dinner, she thought this was not a likely explanation of the black/white performance difference.  And some one else then “called her” on being closed-minded to the possibility.  She wasn’t “JAQing off”, she was trying to defend herself from being “JAQed off”, and was unable to do so very well, because it is an insidious ploy.

Comment #106: wnoise  on  05/04  at  05:27 PM

@105: While identifying linked genetic markers shows that some of the variance associated with a trait is genetic, the failure to find genetic markers can’t be considered strong evidence that genetics doesn’t play a role. Especially when you have traits with multiple genetic factors and a fairly large contribution of environmental variance.

Comment #107: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  05:38 PM

Perhaps more importantly, can we use John Yoo to dismiss the entire field of law!

I don’t see anyone here using the Pioneer Fund to dismiss the entire field of biology, or even of intelligence research, but you keep beating that strawman.

Comment #108: Mnemosyne  on  05/04  at  05:45 PM

John Yoo has tenure at Berkeley.  Does that mean that there is some merit to his claim that we can legally torture people as long as we don’t actually kill them despite the numerous anti-torture treaties the US has signed?

You know exactly what my point is. The quality of people at Berkeley is generally very good because you have to have a lot on your resume to get the job. Hence when a Berkeley professor says something people in general sit up and pay attention because they are likely not just coming out with a lot of hot air. That’s not the same as saying you have to agree with whatever a Berkeley professor says but to disagree with him or her it is worth your while finding out what they have to say so that you can disagree with them rather than presuming you disagree with them when you have zero clue about what they are basing their opinion on or have only read people who disagree with the opinion.

In this case that’s really easy to do because I posted Jensen’s 30 year summary of his work and anyone who knows some basic statistics and reads the entire thing should easily be able to see what he thinks and where he is coming from. The article is highly unlikely to convince anyone that black people are dumber than the general population because who are you going to believe Jensen or your own eyes? The only issue is do you care enough about the debate to read it. If you don’t care that’s cool. If you do care about the debate or have been forced into awareness of it because of the need to pass courses it seems kind of nuts to just avoid half of the content.

Also not having ever studied law i assume Yoo never said he thought torture was ok before he got tenure? Jensen and colleagues have been whistling the same tune for a very long time.

Comment #109: pharmakos  on  05/04  at  05:59 PM

I don’t see anyone here using the Pioneer Fund to dismiss the entire field of biology, or even of intelligence research, but you keep beating that strawman.

Bwah? I didn’t say anything about biology, or the Pioneer Fund. I was specifically riffing off of earlier posts that suggested that Jensen thus disqualifies psychology.

Comment #110: CBrachyrhynchos  on  05/04  at  06:06 PM

@Pharmakos: I’ve read Mismeasure of Man. Twice. It’s that good. It was years ago, and I don’t remember the details of everything, but the name Jenkens did stick in my mind - and not in a good way. Speaking of “empirical data”, most of what Jenkens is famous for is recycling old discredited “twin” studies, if I recall correctly. The “empirical data” that you speak so highly of, in this field, is a hodge podge of speculation and fraud, which Gould went and demonstrated as a public service to the rest of us. Just go read his book already.

The Mismeasure of Man is not a philosophical treatise: it is a scientific, statistical and conceptual take down of a bunch of racist sexist fools. And a fantastic read.

Comment #111: CassieC  on  05/04  at  06:07 PM

I didn’t say anything about biology, or the Pioneer Fund. I was specifically riffing off of earlier posts that suggested that Jensen thus disqualifies psychology.

I’m not sure where anyone said that.  Jensen disqualifies Jensen with his sloppy research and poor statistical modeling, but he doesn’t disqualify the entire field of psychology.

Comment #112: Mnemosyne  on  05/04  at  07:21 PM

and science continues.

from the new york times, today:

By comparing that genome with those of various present day humans, the team concluded that about 1 percent to 4 percent of the genome of non-Africans today is derived from Neanderthals. But the Neanderthal DNA does not seem to have played a great role in human evolution, they said. .

however…

So far, the team has identified only about 100 genes — surprisingly few — that have contributed to the evolution of modern humans since the split. The nature of the genes in humans that differ from those of Neanderthals is of particular interest because they bear on what it means to be human, or at least not Neanderthal. Some of the genes seem to be involved in cognitive function and others in bone structure.

...

The Leipzig group’s interbreeding theory would undercut the present belief that all human populations today draw from the same gene pool that existed a mere 50,000 years ago. “What we falsify here is the strong out-of-Africa hypothesis that everyone comes from the same population,” Dr. Paabo said.

In his and Dr. Reich’s view, Neanderthals interbred only with non-Africans, the people who left Africa, which would mean that non-Africans drew from a second gene pool not available to Africans.

accepted scientific wisdom - “we are ALL africans, originally”, which i’ve seen in some form both here and in the “above the law” thread - changes all the time.  not all of us are ALL “out-of-african”, evidently.

it could be, given the sophistication of the statistical methods involved, that the conclusions in this article will also change in a few months.

but that’s why i find the “everything i need to know i read in ‘the mismeasure of man’ in 1982” arguments unpersuasive, and frankly, unfair to contemporary scientists.

Comment #113: ochlocrat  on  05/07  at  02:29 PM

Gould devoted a large part of the book to an analysis of statistical correlation, which is used by psychologists to assert the validity of IQ tests and the heritability of intelligence. For example, to claim that an IQ test measures general intelligence factor, answers to various questions must correlate highly. The heritability of g requires that the scores of respondents who are closely related exhibit higher correlation than those of distant relations.

Gould pointed out that correlation was not the same as cause. As he put it, measures of the changes, over time, in “my age, the population of Mexico, the price of Swiss cheese, my pet turtle’s weight, and the average distance between galaxies” have a high positive correlation, but that did not mean that Stephen Jay Gould’s age goes up because the population of Mexico goes up. Second, and more specifically, a high positive correlation between parent and child IQ can be taken as either evidence that IQ is genetically inherited or that IQ is inherited through social and environmental factors. Since the same data can be used to argue either side of the case, the data in and of itself are not useful.

Furthermore, Gould argued that even if it were demonstrated that IQ were highly genetically heritable within a group, this does not explain the causes of IQ differences between groups or whether those differences can be changed by environment. Gould gave the example of height, which was known to be determined mostly through genes within socioeconomic groups, but group differences in height may be due to nutrition as well as genes. Richard Lewontin, a colleague of Gould’s, is well-known for emphasizing this argument as it pertains to IQ testing.

According to Gould, a good example of the confusion of heritability is found in the statement “If all environments were to become equal for everyone, heritability would rise to 100% because all remaining differences in IQ would necessarily be genetic in origin.”[4] He says that this claim is at best misleading and at worst, false. First, it is very hard to conceive of a world in which everyone grows up in exactly the same environment; the very fact that people are spatially and temporally dispersed means that no one can be in exactly the same environment, for example, a husband and wife may share a house, but they do not live in identical environments because each is married to a different person. Second, even if people grew up in exactly the same environment, not all differences would be genetic in origin. This is because embryonic development involves chance molecular events and random cellular movements that alter the effects of genes.

.................................................................

Finally, Gould points out that he is not opposed to the notion of “biological variability,” which is the premise that heredity influences intelligence. Instead, he does criticize the notion of “biological determinism,” which is the idea that genes determine destiny and there is nothing we can or should do about this.

Wiki Link

Also, what the scientists cited may or may not have discovered doesn’t change what I quoted earlier:

Quantitative genetic studies have established that there are additive genetic contributions to different aspects of cognitive ability — especially general intelligence — and how they change through the lifespan. Molecular genetic studies have yet to identify reliably reproducible contributions from individual genes.

Comment #114: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/09  at  12:04 AM
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