This is a good post. I didn’t comment on your other one, but I did think that there has to be some separation drawn between the general issue male dominance, which can obviously extend to eating issues, and the particular problems that couples can have where one person really enjoys foods and especially types of restaurants that the other person does not. (If you really want to have a wild experience on this issue, try having a relationship with someone who has an eating disorder!)

Really, do these people exist? I know there are plenty of obnoxious carnivores, but I find it hard to believe that there are really all that many people who, say, refuse to eat macaroni and cheese unless it’s got bacon sprinkled on top. More likely what they are reacting to is the label “vegetarian” and the cultural associations they think it has.

I understand not wanting to date somebody who has dumb principles, say a person who refuses to eat things they consider “vegetarian” because in their mind vegetarians are all snooty unwashed hippies blah blah blah. But I’m equally uncomfortable with the “if you reaaaaallly loved me you’d TRY the quinoa”, too. Hey, maybe I’ve had _______ before and I didn’t goddamn like it, and no, I don’t want Round 3,294,392 of “Oh, but you must not have had _________ that was cooked right. I’m sure you’ll like THIS __________.” I really REALLY don’t want to play the game where I politely put off the request that I eat __________, have that desire ignored, and finally tell the person quite bluntly that I don’t fucking want any ____________.

Of course, I’m also in coastal California, where being a meat-and-potatoes person is not seen as a valid or even superior personal choice, but as sign of severe personal limitations and probably a signal that you deeply hate Mother Earth. YMMV.

Straight up pickiness using a preference for meat as an excuse seems much more common than judgmental vegans, because you can’t serve them “strange” meat/meat dishes either. Look no further than the odd prejudice against dark meat chicken; god forbid you try and serve someone bobwhite or dove.

Mmm, bird.

Is it vegetarianism if I eat the deer that ate my vegetable garden?  *sigh*  At least the farmer’s market is plentiful.

Yeah, the fact that meat spends so much time in the spotlight ‘we’re having chicken for dinner’ means that meat-specific eaters are usually pushing everything else to the side of their plate.  And there’s alot of everything else.

It seems acceptable to say ‘I don’t like tofu’ but to me, that’s like saying, ‘I don’t like white bread.’  What about wheat?  Rye?  Black?  Garlic naan?  Cinnamon loaf?  Etc.

Great post; this was my favorite part:

“In my experience, meat eaters who roll with vegetarians with the most ease are the ones who aren’t picky, and don’t pull faces when presented with vegetarian food just because it’s different than what they eat.”

When DH and I decided to go vegetarian for health reasons in 2000, the hardest part wasn’t craving meat—it was having to literally learn how to cook all over again after a years of being an avid omnivorous foodie.  Fortunately it was kind of fun, and led to a whole palette of new ingredients.

I live in the Southeast US and encounter very few vegetarians socially or professionally, but no one ever leaves my house hungry!  If I can convince someone we’re not all about rabbit food and self-denial, it’s a start.

I agree with this one a lot more than I did with the other post. The super-picky meat-eater is just as, if not more, irritating than the sanctimonious vegan.

What if the partner has tried the food item before and still hates it? For example, I think mushrooms are pretty much the ickiest things in the world. Long ago, DW shamed me into at least trying them, and I tried them several times, and still think they’re super gross. How does the couple deal with that situation?

I’m vegetarian and I live with a meat eater and its really never been a problem. I don’t eat meat, ever, but that doesn’t mean I can’t stand the idea of it even being in the same room as me. And luckily my partner isn’t bothered by me not eating meat, since it only affects me. Basically we work well because neither one of us feels a need to impose our eating habits on the other one (and we both eat reasonably healthy, in our own ways - there are plenty of different ways to eat that are healthy. If my partner started eating nothing but deep-fried cake we might have an issue, but that’s a different kind of issue.)

One little thing I don’t get is people who say they can’t handle dating someone unless they can always share dishes at restaurants. Why is it all about restaurants? The awesome thing about restaurants is each person can order different things off an extensive menu, and they can have completely different food with no problem. If anything, I’d think this whole issue would be a bigger deal at home where you actually have to bother cooking separate things, but even that doesn’t need to be a problem.

I keep seeing these threads with lots of people saying “I could never date a picky eater” or ” I could never date a vegetarian” and I really don’t understand them. But I just realized that the critical difference here is not exactly what I eat, but that I’m not a foodie type person at all. I don’t see food as this big wonderful experience that must be shared and discussed. I’m perfectly happy eating a simple healthy meal, eating the same simple healthy meals over and over, and eating it alone if no one else wants it. I’m also not bothered by other people around me eating things I don’t like, as long as they don’t constantly pester me to magically start liking it (which they often do). So I have no problem dating someone who likes completely different food than me, but I guess I’d have a problem dating someone who cared about being a foodie and wanted me to constantly share all food with them no matter what.

Long ago, DW shamed me into at least trying them, and I tried them several times, and still think they’re super gross. How does the couple deal with that situation?

You humor your partner to “try it,” and if/when you still dont like it, even with your partner’s “special recipe,” your partner accepts your answer and drops the issue.

@2 - They definitely exist. Yeah, maybe they’ll have a grilled cheese or mac n cheese for lunch occasionally, or cereal for breakfast if they don’t have enough time to make bacon. But those aren’t considered “real” meals. Dinner with my family consists of [chicken/steak/hamburger/ham/turkey] + [mashed potatoes/baked potatoes/French fries/onion rings] and maybe a salad of iceberg lettuce with cheese, croutons, ranch dressing, and bacon bits. If it’s not that it’s meat lasagna or meat spaghetti and bread. That’s literally the entirety of my family’s Midwestern diet. At restaurants they refuse to order anything without meat. My brother will order steak 100% of the time it is on the menu.

I’ve also been to many events that needlessly made everything meat-based. On one occasion, I was working at an event and not only did the people cooking have exclusively meat-based entrees for every meal, they put bacon in the green beans, the salad, and the mashed potatoes. The vegetarians could eat steamed corn, biscuits, and ice cream for every meal for three days. And yet they thought we were being jerks when we asked if they could keep the bacon separate the next day…

For me, much more important than the question of what food one eats is the attitude toward eating. I don’t know how this divides along gender or carn/veg/vegan lines, but the showstoppers for me have always been about enjoying food as an esthetic/sensual experience vs the “food is fuel, let’s shovel something down and move on”.  Yeah, there’s a certain amount of privilege there, but not so much, because if you can pay attention at pretty much any level.

That said, I’m beginning to wonder how much the men and meat thing (in addition to the obvious Tor Kill Cow! Tor put Cow in Fire and eat bloody chunks! thing) is that carnivory is one of the subjects where men are allowed to wax rhapsodic, nay, even weak-kneed about just the right amount of the right kind of fire, and a delicacy of touch with ingredients that would get them shamed out of their gender if those ingredients weren’t slathered on bloody dead things.

One little thing I don’t get is people who say they can’t handle dating someone unless they can always share dishes at restaurants. Why is it all about restaurants? The awesome thing about restaurants is each person can order different things off an extensive menu, and they can have completely different food with no problem.

In my experience, (1) there are a lot of restaurants that do not feature so much choice on the menu, and (2) there are some diets / ways of life that are so strict and restrictive that they make large swaths of the restaurant world off limits, which can really hamper a couple’s social activities.

“I can see how veganism might be a little too much” is a valid ethical statement only if you discount the animal, environmental and human (labor abuse) costs of non-vegan meals.

Amanda, I turn to you as a clear thinker, clear voice, and an ethical voice on a whole range of issues, but when I read something like the above quote - or the “Vegan, but I gave it a hit of Parmesan” type statements you tend to add to a lot of your recipes - I can’t help but thinking you have a blind spot specific to veganism. The truth is that veganism is no intrinsically harder than any other form of ethical choice or social evolution. Some people might find it easier or harder than others to overcome habits of unethical eating, just as others might find it easier or harder than others to overcome habits of sexism or racism.

I feel that one of the hallmarks of progressivism is that we commit to always trying to do our best. If going vegan is beyond what any given individual can take on, at a given moment, fair enough: but we don’t give up trying, and we also don’t pretend that our ethical lapses are actually virtues based on aesthetics or convenience or other factors. To me, the latter is classic conservative psychology.

Another hallmark is our willingness to question our privileges and blind spots. I wonder how you would react if you read a “90% feminist” blogpost by a well meaning guy who argues for equality, but then ends with, “I know I shouldn’t ask my female partner to do the bulk of the housekeeping and childcare, but that might be a little too much.” Because I see your comments re veganism in much the same vein.

I want to end by being very clear that, even on matters of diet, I see you as mainly on the side of the angels. The “vegan, but I hit it with Parmesan” comments are jarring to me as a vegan, but I have to acknowledge that if everyone ate the way you did, it would alleviate a huge amount of suffering. But I hate seeing veganism singled out as some uniquely difficult form of ethical living when it truly isn’t.

I guess I don’t worry too much about it. There are people who simply do not take pleasure in food, and no amount of cajoling can change it. And for those people, who know what they like (and it just happens to be the narrative of what the ‘murcan diet should be), let them have their meat and potatoes. Let them have their fussy-ness. I learned that lesson the hard way. I made a three-cheese baked mac n’ cheese with roasted red bell peppers and it was dismissed as “not as good as the Kraft.” I mean, you can do the best you can to help people experience new pleasures if you feel they’re missing out. And sometimes it’s a home run. But when it isn’t, oh well.

If people don’t agree on food, it’s a fair bet they won’t agree on much else. Food is such a foundation of who you are—it’s the one primal function that we do in public (socially, even), it’s the basis of culture, and how you approach it is going to have ripples through the rest of your life.

reverie @ 9:  I’ve also been to many events that needlessly made everything meat-based. On one occasion, I was working at an event and not only did the people cooking have exclusively meat-based entrees for every meal, they put bacon in the green beans, the salad, and the mashed potatoes. The vegetarians could eat steamed corn, biscuits, and ice cream for every meal for three days. And yet they thought we were being jerks when we asked if they could keep the bacon separate the next day…

My biscuits even have bacon fat in them.    But I do take your point.  Lots of things that we meat eaters make don’t have to have meat products in them, and I’m happy to make biscuits with vegetable shortening when my vegetarian mother in law is staying at my house, but I also reserve the right to think that those vegetarian biscuits are just not as tasty as the ones with pork fat.

paul @ 10:  For me, much more important than the question of what food one eats is the attitude toward eating.

This I can totally agree with.  I love to eat and while I can be picky about some things (I have some textural issues and also, smells really bother me, so it is more *how* things are cooked that cause me problems than *what* got cooked), I’m usually game to try most things that are put in front of me because I genuinely just love food and also I don’t want to be rude if I can avoid it.  But being with someone who didn’t at least appreciate good food and could be at least a little bit adventurous, even if he wasn’t the sort of person who plans vacations around what’s good to eat and spends lots of time thinking about what to cook and how to cook it to make it taste as good as possible, would be very difficult for me.  It is more about attitude than anything else.

I’m uncomfortable with the discussion of “deal breakers” in general, because I feel sometimes people are called upon to justify not wanting to date someone, and I think you can say no to dating someone for any reason you see fit, no matter what it means to someone else.

This, so much this.  I’ve been called shallow for dumping guys, or told I should give them a second chance, by friends who didn’t even like the ex anyway, or even had the exact same opinion up until I dared reject some dude.  I guarantee I can pick out some clearly unattractive quality of anyone I’ve dated, that my friends knew sucked, say “I won’t be dating anyone who does/says/likes that again,” and get told that’s harsh.

I think a lot of people read these discussions as (and sometimes individual comments really do say that) “You’re eating wrong and it’s making people not want to fuck you.”  That hits a nerve for most people, and then it sucker punches two more.

lol—concern troll is a lifelong concern troll.

@13 - Surely you don’t think that anyone who is picky or knows what they likes automatically likes the “narrative” of the “‘murcan” diet? The people who are picky because they are supertasters or because they hate the textures of certain foods often hate the very foods they grew up with, like meat and potatoes. That’s one way to be extremely picky and have no one take you seriously - e.g. some people don’t like the texture of mashed potatoes even if they like other types of potato dishes.

Surely?

Did I scandalize you?

Scandalize… no. But it seems like your post contains an obvious fallacy, that “people who know what they like” are the same as “people who only like processed american food”. If you want to complain about people who will only eat things like Kraft Mac N Cheese, then go ahead, but it seemed like you were implying that people only fall into two categories - adventurous eater or only eats “murkin” diet. And I’m pointing out that’s not true. If that’s not what you meant, then don’t worry about it.

I can assure you, I’m not.

Being counted as “less picky” for refusing to eat a whole category of food (meat) reminds me of those people who insist that swearing means you have a smaller vocabulary.  I’ve never met one of these straw-omnivores, and I spent most of my life in the Midwest.

But I have met quite a few bossy vegetarians.  Out of about a dozen I’ve eaten with, I would say that two were pleasant to deal with.  The rest complained, whined, cried, tried to guilt the rest of us for eating animals, and were just ... obnoxious.  Honestly, I’ve eaten with truly picky people and never had one say, “Ew!  I can’t believe you’re going to eat that!!”  But I did have a veg say that.

Ymmv, as mine has.  I just don’t think it’s fair to pretend that omnivores are the generally the whiny, persnickety ones.  Maybe in your experience, but as I’ve said ... mine has been very different.

I’m not sure that I could live without cheese.  I have no problem not having meat.  I grew up in a home where we seldom had meat.  Many meals were only vegetables or pasta, and a lot of the pasta was macaroni and cheese.  I still eat lots of macaroni and cheese.  I make it with onions.  I have known vegetarians and vegans and meat eaters who were obstinate in their eating choices.  They no effect on me at all.  I eat what is in front of me.  If I am with a vegan I eat vegan with no complaint, but I really don’t like those artificial meats.  I do like tofu though.  Tofu takes on the flavors of what it is cooked with.  I’d much rather have tofu than any of the imitation hot dogs or hamburgers. 

I’ve never considered a person’s diet before dating them, but I’d have to before starting a long term relationship with anyone.  I could probably live the rest of my life without eating meat or cheese or eggs or honey or butter, but it would have to be someone really special.

mythago: strawman.  It’s not “if you really loved me!”  It’s more I can’t even imagine dating someone who is so close-minded they “know” they hate something without trying it.  Or so unhealthy they don’t eat vegetables.  And yes, I’ve met those people.  They’re actually more common than not—-most Americans get less than half their daily vegetable portions, and most of that is potatoes.

I can’t help but thinking you have a blind spot specific to veganism.

Nah.  I’m just not a purist.  In fact, I find it alienating.  I don’t find veganism alienating. If your post, and its assumptions that other people don’t agree with you because they’re stupid, ignorant, or haven’t thought about it alienating. 

But let’s be clear.  While asshole vegans exist—-on this thread!—-many are very nice and grasp that ethical thought processes can lead to different conclusions, including eating meat.

If people don’t agree on food, it’s a fair bet they won’t agree on much else.

Exactly. Which is why it’s more of a hypothetical situation for me.  I’ve met men who are “vegetables are for pussies” kind of guys.  I have yet to find one attractive.  It’s not just their attitude, either.  They often sweat grease.

@wafflemonkey: People who eschew meat in America often look into a variety of other cuisines for foodstuffs and recipes if only because something like Indian or Chinese food already has an expansive vegetarian subset. Granted I personally have met the vegetarian who live off of nothing but pasta and pre-packaged frozen vegetables but that seems like a minority. Now meat eaters in this country are much pickier when it comes to protein sources. When’s the last time you had rabbit, pigeon, or any kind of non-processed organ meat?

Amanda @23: Did the meaning of ‘strawman’ change recently? “Our experiences may differ” is not my definition of a strawman, but perhaps I am not aware of all Internet traditions.

As I said, I can absolutely understand wanting to avoid somebody who had dumb principles, like the aforementioned “vegetables are for pussies” guys. But the ‘people who refuse to even try something’ encompasses a lot more than just the person who never got over their grade-school “Ew, yucky! What is it?” reaction to new food.

There are also people who are ‘close-minded’ because they know they simply don’t like certain foods, or have very bad associations with it that put them off that particular food. And just as there are people who are open-minded and willing to try all kinds of configurations of food, there are asshole foodies who can’t understand why you won’t try these beets, because these are organic collectively-farmed locavore beets marinated in blah blah blah so why won’t you just try it? And yeah, those people exist too. 

Though, of course, I agree with everyone who’s noted that you don’t owe anybody a relationship or a “second chance”.

I’ve always believed that a couple should be able to order a single pizza together.

That’s not to say they have to have the same favorite toppings or preferred combos, but if they order a pizza because it’s Thursday night and they’ve had long days at work and they’re tired, they should be able to order one that they’ll both enjoy without resorting to half-toppings.

I have known couples who couldn’t do this, and it was always the tip of a huge iceberg of issues.

I have proposed this as part of a basic pre-marriage quiz everyone should take. (Another question: your best friend is having a party and it starts at 8:00. What time should you get there? If your answers differ by more than 15 minutes, reconsider.)

Spare a thought for those of us who can practically no longer eat vegetables at all. It gets old having to continuously explain that you’re not just some man-child but that whole fibers will actually fuck up your entire day.

(Man, I miss rhubarb. And I never even knew I liked celery until I couldn’t have it anymore!)

Of course, the blame for that situation could arguably be attributed to the spoiled vegetable refuseniks people confuse me for.

I hate seeing veganism singled out as some uniquely difficult form of ethical living when it truly isn’t.

I wouldn’t say it’s uniquely difficult, but it certainly would be extremely, off-puttingly difficult to me.  Walk a mile in my metabolism, bearing in mind of course that I’ve been advised by my doctor to avoid soy products, and then tell me otherwise.

Not only would it be extraordinarily difficult, but I would be very unhappy.  Food—non-vegan food—is one of the greatest pleasures of my life.

Does a troll think he will actually get a response with his poor rehash of a rehash of trolling?

Well, I’m a picky eater, I’ll admit it.  I’ve certainly been known to refuse to try something, even though I don’t know whether or not I’ll like it, because to me there isn’t any particular joy in trying something and facing the possibility of unpleasantness.

When Amanda quoted that comment above wherein someone was bemoaning people who won’t try things, I actually thought that was going to be followed up with a “what a judgmental asshole” commentary, not a whole hearted endorsement.

I put it down to being forced to eat foods that I didn’t like as a child, which has given me a strong aversion to trying things outside of my own control.

I don’t put it down to closed-mindedness, I put it down to my own life experience.  I’m not into a “merkan” diet - for a start, I’m British, living in Britain.  I was a vegetarian for many years and doing so expanded my culinary experiences and tastes enormously.  Now I’m eating some meat again, my palate has expanded further. 

But I’ll thank the world generally for not forcing me to try something when I don’t know whether I will like it, and will dread the experience of having to try not knowing, which would spoil the experience for me even it I did turn out to like the damn thing.  And it would be nice if people could recognise that “being picky” is not necessarily the same as “being closed-minded”.

@32

Plenty of vegans that have cats and dogs feed them vegan food, there are some who think the principles can/should be applied to animals, and some who do not.

I guess I’m taken aback by what Jill said, but only because food isn’t that important to me. We all have different standards. Mine are chiefly related to what sexual activities a prospective partner likes (and seriously if I find someone who is physically attractive and meets that standard I can forgive a LOT of stuff, which is why I have no patience for people who call me shallow for not demanding emotional and intellectual standards- I’m lucky enough to find the rare person who meets my standards as they are now, looking for someone totally perfect would doom me to involuntary celibacy forever), but if you’re super into feeding each other foie gras, that’s your business.

I guess what struck me about Jill’s response to that article was that she read about the man giving his girlfriend a hard time because she’s vegan, and her reaction was to agree that indeed, vegans are difficult, and so presumably the woman deserved the hard time her boyfriend was giving her.

Never argue with someone committed to the American Way of Food that it’s possible to eat differently and not be a bad person.

her reaction was to agree that indeed, vegans are difficult, and so presumably the woman deserved the hard time her boyfriend was giving her.

I don’t think she endorsed the treatment her boyfriend was giving her (ribbing her among their friends at a restaurant seemed to be the worst offense), she just said that she couldn’t have a relationship with a vegan and thought it would be too burdensome to really bother with.

I eat a variety of foods, but I’m not really a sensualist and couldn’t have a relationship where food was a major issue that the relationship revolved around. It is nice to go to a restaurant without having each partner’s diet turn into an “issue.” Also, I have my routines, and if I had to upend them all because my girlfriend suddenly became vegan, I’m not saying it would be a dealbreaker, but as Amanda says, “I think you can say no to dating someone for any reason you see fit,” and that may well qualify. At issue is that, if you read the Feministe thread, sometimes being with a vegan isn’t about “compromising,” it’s about the non-vegan making a “sacrifice for the good of the relationship.” Sometimes you might be willing to make that sacrifice for someone who becomes vegan, but I wouldn’t hold it against someone for realizing that they don’t want to bother.

Surely you can defend your ethical stance better than resorting to namecalling! It makes you come accross as if you don’t have a leg to stand on when you have to resort to namecalling, you know.

No, it comes across as not wanting to engage someone who asks questions in bad faith and doesn’t bother to do his own research or actually pay attention to the conversation. You think you’re being clever and confrontational, which is fine, but that you expect a positive reaction to that is less understandable.

as someone who has been a veg*n for 22 years, i’ve seen a lot of veg and food politics. one thing that i think the average omnivore (and i use that as shorthand for “non-vegetarian”, even though ovo-lacto-vegs are, technically, omnivores) doesn’t get is the amount of abuse that the average veg*n gets just for hir diet and the astounding number of omnis who simply won’t touch a meal if it’s labeled “vegetarian”, as though it has something especially ooky added to it to make it inedible. it’s extraordinarily frustrating to be harangued, teased, or even looked upon like some kind of oddball ascetic for following this type of diet. and since most omnivores aren’t assholes, it never occurs to them that this is going on. we have the stereotype of the smug veg*n, but only a wispy ghost of one of the abusive omnivore, the latter of which i encounter WAY more often than the former.

it’s getting better, as more and more people choose to limit or eliminate meat from their diets, but there are still folks out there who think absolutely nothing of yelling at a stranger in a restaurant or saying really dumb things about protein or talk your head off about meat substitutes (as though using them is the only way to be a vegan; protip: it’s not) and the evils of soy. i guess i feel like “veg*n is a dealbreaker” is akin to that kind of unthinking, uncritical bias and it does bother me a bit. even as someone who can’t even remember what meat tastes like and is viscerally bothered by the smell and sight of meat after so long, i would never say that meat eating is a dealbreaker for me. it’s not ideal, it’s not what i would look for, but people are more than the sum of their dietary quirks.

Being counted as “less picky” for refusing to eat a whole category of food (meat) reminds me of those people who insist that swearing means you have a smaller vocabulary.  I’ve never met one of these straw-omnivores, and I spent most of my life in the Midwest.

They certainly exist; I’ve received flak for eating durian, horse, and snails, and that’s just in the last two weeks.  All from omnivorous people.

Being counted as “less picky” for refusing to eat a whole category of food (meat) reminds me of those people who insist that swearing means you have a smaller vocabulary.  I’ve never met one of these straw-omnivores, and I spent most of my life in the Midwest.

Yet you yourself suggest that vegetarians are pickier than omnivores, when most vegetarians eat much more varied diets and fewer bland, unchallenging foods than omnivores. Meat and potatoes are boring. There’s nothing wrong with boring, and I like those things a lot myself, but I don’t give myself foodie points for eating them.

My sister married a picky eater. She was fine with it because she was a bit picky herself. Now 25 years later, she finds herself sometimes frustrated about meals because he won’t eat anything but certain meat, potatoes and maybe a little salad or corn. Literally everything he eats is white, beige or brown. I can see the supertaster argument with him—he’s someone who finds even the smell of garlic repulsive. I try to accommodate him when they visit, but it’s a real challenge, especially when we go out to dinner. I couldn’t live like that. Sorry.

The bad thing is their daughters are also now picky eaters and it’s not genetic since they were adopted.

This reminds me of a discussion that happened on another forum—a guy was looking at taking his wife out to a nice restaurant for their anniversary, and he had a look at the menu in advance and got ... well, belligerent when he didn’t understand some of the specific food terminology. And posted the menu with his markup of all of the weird terms used on the nice menu. So for example, words like “reduction” and “demi-glace” and the description of a statler chicken all just threw him for a loop. And Tarragon!!!! WTF IS THAT? And everyone was trying to be very helpful in describing what this stuff was, but he was convinced that the restaurant was trying to make him, personally, feel stupid by making their menu so inscrutable. And when someone pointed out that tarragon is not really some wacky, rare herb that’s never used in anything, his response was “well, is it used to make a domino’s pizza?”

Lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him not complain that it’s not pepsi.

#2: Yes those people are very real.  Though perhaps less frequently encountered outside the South?  Or outside urban areas?

One of my friends is an archconservative guy and not only will not, ever, under any circumstances, consider eating a meal that doesn’t include meat, he feels that something is deeply wrong if meat does not make up the majority of the meal.  He has gout because of this attitude, and will probably die young because of his attitude.

This attitude is very much tied up with his macho fantasies of himself, and also manifests as an absolute refusal to try girly foods (ie: anything not meat centric), and a tendency to mock anyone (especially men, but also women) who eat girly foods.

Snacks are a different matter, he even likes hummus; but only as a chip dip, hummus sandwiches are girly food and he won’t touch them.

I live in the Texas panhandle, and while he’s a bit extreme even around here, his attitude in a slightly less extreme way is all but universal among men out here.

I’m uncomfortable with the discussion of “deal breakers” in general, because I feel sometimes people are called upon to justify not wanting to date someone,

Same here. I think that much of the time, we end (and begin) our relationships out of a gestalt sense, but we don’t feel comfortable saying vague things like “I just don’t think this is working” so we feel compelled to look for a specific cause.

I certainly felt that way about my parents’ divorce.  Yes, it ended with an affair, but it seems to me like “the other (wo)man” can’t break up a marriage that is otherwise doing well.  That third person serves as a catalyst, a manifestation of the overall dissatisfaction going on with one or both partners.

Well, not necessarily. I mean, a divorce is another thing entirely, but I know I’ve broken it off with guys before because there was a pretty serious incompatibility. And it sucked. But I’m not going to go in for “the big investment” if I know it’s just going to hurt that much more down the line when the thing we’re not matching up on becomes more pronounced over time.

Thank you to most folks for not feeding the troll. 

I would find it quite possible to be a vegetarian, and I’m drifting toward pescatarianism.  But veganism is just too restrictive.  I also am not sure why it’s bad to eat eggs, if the chickens are treated humanely.

Punditus—It depends on your rationale. If you believe that the exploitation of another living creature is wrong (even if the creature is treated humanely), then eggs are never acceptable.

If you believe that cruelty is wrong but humane treatment of animals is acceptable, or you avoid factory farmed meat and dairy for environmental reasons (which is I think more where Amanda falls), then avoiding eggs might be a restriction of your location and/or budget, but if you have access to truly locally- and humanely-treated chickens, then eating their eggs is not cruel, but shorthand for your dietary preferences could be shorthanded as simply “I don’t eat eggs.”

I try to be an ethical omnivore.  I’ve reduced my meat consumption significantly, and what meat I do eat is ethically sourced.

My real problem with ethics is cheese.

I love cheese.  I cannot imagine going without cheese.  And it is insanely hard to find cheese made from ethically sourced milk.  Most dairy farms are not nice places at all.

scrumby @ 3, look at lifelongactivist @ 12.  Not all that uncommon for people who loudly declare they are vegan.  People who just are what they are, most of us have no problem with.  Then we meet up with folks like lla or reverie’s family. I think you are right that the meat in everything being a cover for pickiness is likely true often enough to be a valid observation.

Scumby @ 26: huh, interesting question.  I guess it could be enlightening.  rabbit - about 6 months ago; pigion - never, but quail (6 mo ago), pheasant (a year or two) and grouse (back when we lived where you could shoot them - which I didn’t as I’m not a good shot); nonprocessed organ meat - last week if whole chicken from the store counts - about 3 mo ago if it had to be my own chickens’.
Tyro @38: I’m with you.  It’s hard enough when you only have to adjust slightly (removing all salt, reducing gluten as much as possible by not eating stuff with it as an additive, cutting out even moderately fat meat, etc) for serious health reasons while balancing others health needs.

@Helen: I still think picky meat eaters out number sanctimonious vegans if only because there’s a larger population of meat eaters and 6 year-olds.

I do think it’s telling that most of your examples in #52 are poultry some of which you’ve raised or hunted. It’s hard to find those things in stores. And by non-processed organ meat I was thinking meat not poultry: liver, tripe, chitlins and the like. Personally I don’t think anyone’s diet is poorer for lacking headcheese but there should be a happy mid-ground between eating every part of an animal no matter how dangerous and the bland homogenization that swamps us today.

I’ve been vegetarian for 10 years, with about 5 years as vegan in between. And contrarily, every time I hear the “guuh, it would be SO HORRIBLE if you were a vegan again” I’m just that much more tempted to cut dairy and eggs out of my diet again. Because it isn’t the worst thing in the world, much as I love homemade pizza and tiramisu I’m hardly going to die without it. Or die if it is a red pizza instead. In terms of the worst things that could happen to me, having to do without dairy and eggs is pretty low.

Of the long-term relationships I’ve had only one was with a vegetarian, and he was kind of a jerk about veganism (and a lot of other things), but even so, it was just plain easier. I didn’t have to worry about the stupid awkward “what you’re eating is SO WEIRD” and the “I would just kill myself if I had to eat like you do” and the “Don’t look at my meat-y dish *wave hands in front of my face to shield my delicate vision* it has meat in it HA HA HA!” and the “it would REALLY OFFEND YOU if I ate this wouldn’t it be funny if I ordered it?” and the “but what if the animal died of old age/I hit it with my car/was a carnivore/was the only source of food on a desert island/-insert other inane scenario-/ THEN would you eat meat? If so HA YOU’RE A HYPOCRITE!!” so on and so forth.
Really, clever people possibly going to date vegetarians, they’ve heard every last HILARIOUS thing you can think of about non-meat eating before. All of them. The 10,000,000th time is somehow not that amazingly funny. And yet meat-eaters get REALLY upset when you imply that this is actually annoying behavior. Like my boyfriend (who eats meat and is mildly picky), the other day, I mentioned I was trying some new faux meat and prefaced a food offer with “and look, don’t say anything about how weird the faux meat must be and how you’d never eat it, I don’t care, however I’m going to try it and if you want some of this pasta dish without I’ll make extra for you” - “Do I really say those things that much?” Yup, he does. And most meat eaters do. And the thing is, I never sit there saying “yuck!” or “that meat is murder!” or try to gross people out about feed lots or whatever. But it is still much, much easier to avoid all of that and be with someone wherein eating or not eating certain foods isn’t going to be an issue at all, even a ‘gentle ribbing’ issue or a ‘makes it difficult to eat out together’ issue.
And almost all of the relationships I’ve had where my partner eats meat? Really want me to eat meat. Whether it is obnoxiously overt in the form of shoving meat-y food at my face (yeah, that ended pretty quickly there) or subtle “you’d probably really like this if you gave it a try, nobody will know if you do” or the concerned “you know having a diet with a small amount of meat is the best kind of diet instead of exclusively vegetarian” it’s there. It is really nice if it isn’t.

Man, I already used this for Tea Chat, might as well post it again…

http://xkcd.com/915/#

One of the things that can fuck up a relationship fast is to disparage differences when they really aren’t important.  It’s othering.

I don’t understand having to have people be just like you in every way in order to like or love them.  Politically, yeah, for the most part, because that’s about values.  But food?  There is an obvious exception for ethical veganism or vegetarianism, because watching someone eat something you think has rights is not conducive to digestion let alone admiration.  But aside from that, food isn’t always something you choose to like or dislike.  Some people really don’t like certain tastes or don’t do well with food they’re not familiar with. 

There really is a gender line here, no matter how much some people try to erase it, because of the traditional role of woman as mother who nurtures us but also controls us.  A man making a choice about food is being manly and decisive; a woman is demanding others comply, no matter their actual actions.

@55

I am saving this XKCD and showing it to anyone who ever questions my indifference to wine types again.

Some of the “vegan-ism is hard” stuff is true - because it is actually hard to be a vegan today, because everything is built around different assumptions.  To a lesser extent, this was true 15 or so years ago for vegetarians, but has become lass so as vegetarianism has become a more acceptable life-choice, and supermarkets and restaurants and the like have become used to it.

Example:  when I was a student, I had to studiously examine every pack of cheese I bought, because the “normal” varieties were usually made with animal rennet.  In the supermarket I frequented, I had to buy the specially labelled “vegetarian” cheese.  It cost no more and was functionally the same, but at the time, it had apparently not occurred to cheese makers that they could just make it all vegetarian.  Nowadays, this has changed - if I want “vegetarian” cheese, I don’t have to check constantly because the assumptions have shifted.

This is likewise the same for people with lactose-intolerance or allergy.  When I am cooking for friends with that particular problem, it’s a nightmare, because so many products have whey in them, even when you wouldn’t think so.  Again, the assumptions of the makers don’t include the possibility that people might not be able to deal with lactose-containing products.  There are also many, very similar, products that don’t contain whey, which makes me think that a lot more could follow suit, and in a few years it will be much easier.

Ditto veganism - I’m willing to be that being vegan would be a whole lot easier if a lot of things didn’t contain animal products even though they don’t strictly speaking need to, simply because producers haven’t got round to the idea that a bit of modification would make their product useable by everyone.  But just like vegetarianism all those years ago, as more people become vegan and it lodges itself in the common perception more, things will become easier.

This is a UK perspective mind you - reading some of the comments here it seems clear that certain parts of the US at least are way behind on this.

#7: geogami, in case you actually don’t understand why not being able to share plates is a big deal for some people, I will explain why it’s important to me.

Good restaurants are expensive (esp. compared to just cooking at home). When I go out to eat I want totry as many different things as possible. It’s not just about satisfying my appetite/hunger, but satisfying my *curiosity*. I want to find out what these new things taste like. So if I’m going out with someone and they can’t try what I’m eating, which means I would feel guilty about taking some of what they’re eating, I get half the value out of it and feel half as satisfied. Since I’m not going out to fancy places every night, I’d like to get the most out of the times I do dine out.

This is less important if I’m going out with friends in order to have somewhere to talk and hang out, and in other cases where the food isn’t the point. And I understand that it’s not important to everyone. But I prefer to dine out with people who enjoy sharing.

But I am glad that you found something that works for you.

We have a high Asian, Central and South American population in my area.  You can find pork and beef liver as well as all the chicken organs (packaged both witht he whole bird or in plastic tubs), tripe and chitlins at the regular grocery store downtown.  Sometimes they have kidneys and around the time of Greek and some South American holidays things like whole sheeps heads.  I’ve seen the organ items in ordinary grocery stores in LA, FL, AR and CA within the last 5 years when I wasn’t even particularly looking for them.
I don’t typically bring organ meats into the house because my spouse has a genetic predisposition ot heart desease, had a triple bypass at 39, has to watch his diet and likes them as much as I do.  I eat the ones from the whole birds in part so that he doesn’t gett he chance to do so.  I have had tripe a couple of times; it’s pretty good when fixed correctly and truly horrible when not.

Yes, I think there are probably more asshole meat eaters, but I doubt there is a higher % of them. 
I just find it baffling that people put so much work into avoiding something in their diet, not if they don’t have a real need to do so.

I just find it baffling that people put so much work into avoiding something in their diet, not if they don’t have a real need to do so.

Similarly, I just find it baffling that people put so much work into being baffled at other peoples’ diets, when they don’t have a real need to do so.

Tenya—I hear you. I was vegetarian for a long time and got so sick of hearing that crap. People, you are not OMGhilarious when you tease vegetarians. You’re being dicks. Stop it. When I was veg I had a boyfriend who would tease me endlessly about it. That really was the tip of a whole iceberg of control issues in that relationship. (N.B. That is not why I stopped being veg.)

I would find it hard to date anyone with a diet so restricted that they could only eat at one or two restaurants, and couldn’t try or enjoy new places. This is true of picky meat-and-potatoes people anywhere, and true of vegans if we lived in a place where there were no vegan options unless you go to an all-vegan restaurant. I don’t particularly care about sharing food at a restaurant—we can order separate dishes. But if you will only eat at one or two restaurants, ever, then going out together is tough.

Now, cooking at home with a live-in vegan partner would be fine. Finding and learning to cook good vegan meals would be a fun challenge for me—I know a few, but don’t have a huge repertoire. There are a lot of different roads to explore there, and I have zero problem with eating vegan even though I’m not vegan. If it tastes good, I’ll eat it.

But a live-in picky eater partner? I really don’t think I could deal. Eating dinner together is really, really important to me in a committed relationship. Making separate meals and eating separately feels so lonely and isolating to me. But I could not deal with constantly eating Kraft dinner and frozen chicken nuggets. I could make separate meals, but I’d quickly get resentful of having to prepare two meals.

I know eating together is just not such a big deal to many people. They prefer to share other activities. If you and your partner are both in that camp, then one person having a drastically different diet is probably not going to cause problems.

Tangentially, I have to say that fake meat can be awesome if done right. There’s a restaurant in Greensboro, NC called Boba House that makes the most delicious dishes with mock meat and seafood. No, it doesn’t taste just like beef and chicken, but it tastes freaking good. Seriously, if any of y’all find yourself in Greensboro, go to Boba House. (Man, I really really really want some Boba House now. Too bad I moved away.)

But a live-in picky eater partner?...I could not deal with constantly eating Kraft dinner and frozen chicken nuggets

Picky eater does not necessarily mean entirely bad taste!  It just means more limited options.  All the options don’t have to be awful.