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John Dean on Prop 8 and the blame game

LGBTRace

While he’s a little late with a reaction to the results of Prop 8, John Dean weighs in with an insightful look at the matter of race and the ballot initiative, “Why Claims that Black Californians Deserve Blame for the Passage of California’s Anti-Gay-Marriage Proposition 8 Are Unfair and Untrue.”

Shortly before the November 2008 election, I asked an African American friend how he was going to vote on Proposition 8. I did not think much about that conversation before the election, but afterward, I realized it went a long way in explaining why Prop. 8 succeeded, with the help of black voters. Now, it is up to the California Supreme Court to say whether, in fact, a simple majority of California voters can deny gays equality. But it’s possible that it did not have to be that way – and the failure to make the anti-Prop. 8 case effectively to black voters may well be to blame for our current situation.

A Pre-Election Conversation That May Shed Light on the Issue of African-Americans and Prop. 8

I knew my friend Jimmy was a good Democrat, not to mention a solid Obama supporter; indeed, he had spent time with both the Senator and his wife, Michelle, when they were visiting California long before Obama announced his presidential candidacy. Jim was so impressed after meeting and talking to the young Senator, he told Michelle Obama that he hoped the senator would run for president one day. She, however, was opposed to such an idea at that time, because she understandably was worried about her husband’s safety.

Jim, who is about my age, is deeply interested in politics, but not a political junkie like me. He was particularly interested in the 2008 election because he so admired Senator Obama and his wife. Several weeks before the election, we were talking about Obama’s solid campaign, when I asked him about his feeling toward Prop. 8. His answer actually surprised me: He said he was against gay marriage.

I asked if his opposition was based on religious beliefs. No, that was not it, he assured me, although he had heard people talking about the Proposition at his church. He said he was not sure he could explain it, but the idea of men marrying men, and women marrying women, did not feel right to him. It made him uncomfortable, even though he had business clients who were gay couples, and he enjoyed spending time with them.

Some of the interesting observations Dean makes regarding his friend’s views are below the fold.
1. Dean’s friend Jim was exposed to the Yes on 8 hysteria ads about teaching homosexuality in the classroom or declaring open season on religious freedom, but he didn’t buy any of that garbage. 

2. Dean’s friend also believed that sexual orientation was not a choice; this black man had gay white and black friends who told him that they knew from childhood that they were gay, and he doesn’t dispute that.

3. What was also true is that the Loving v. Virginia comparison really hadn’t been out there to sell Jim that this was same kind of discrimination—there wasn’t enough messaging to make it hit home—the case hadn’t been made clearly to enough blacks, but his conversation with Dean about the legal aspects of discrimination ultimately swayed his vote. Dean asked Jim whether, after their discussions, he voted for Prop 8.

“No, no, I didn’t,” he said. “I got to thinking about our conversations. No way I am going to vote to discriminate against anyone,” he said with a smile, shaking his head. “But, you know, I have mentioned what we talked about to other blacks – and they were not looking at this question as discrimination either.” He also reported that he had been watching the belated ads of those opposing Prop 8, which he thought had utterly failed to present the issue to the black community as one involving discrimination, Yet he noted that this strategy could have been effective, as the black community surely had no interest in discriminating against anyone.

I think this does make one lesson perfectly clear—one to one outreach can make a difference, even more than a viral YouTube ad or even a TV commercial.

We’ll never know exactly what effect a better outreach campaign would have had, but it’s certain that more people like Jim could have been persuaded to vote no on 8.

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Posted by Pam Spaulding on 09:13 PM • (13) Comments

Pam, I completely agree with your approach, though I’m not convinced that Jim’s lack of intent to discriminate is at all exclupatory, given that the effect of his original position was to unambiguously preserve the legal superiority of his (presumed) heterosexuality over the LGBT community.  It’s good that he didn’t intend to discriminate and it’s good that he’s reachable, but that makes little difference to the people he would discriminate against, regardless of how unaware he was that he was discriminating.

I’m even less heartened by the fact that Jim is won over by the argument that he shouldn’t discriminate because same sex couples can’t deny a biological destiny.  (There is a nod to nature + nurture, but the argument turns on it being no more subject to one’s control than skin color).  I’m glad Jim comes down on the right side in the end, but why should anyone have to prove genetic determinism in order to pursue a long-term co-planning of lives with another adult?  (and where does this leave mixed religious marriages, or bisexuals?).  Autonomy ought to be enough.

This doesn’t address the enormous problem of racism among white LGBT folk, of course—a problem that I think causes more short and long-term problems in coalition building than the stalking horses of that have been thrown up to blame black voters for Prop 8.

Which is a roundabout way of saying that I’m glad this kind of outreach works, but I don’t think it’s morally laudatory to come around to the position of equality, (though giving that kind of welcome and praise to converts is pragmatic.).  If same-sex couples are entitled to equal rights, no one is entitled to withhold them pending persuasion.  Similarly, white LGBT folk aren’t justified in continuing discrimination—intentional or otherwise—pending an outreach from people of color.  That’s not to draw a kind of equivalence between the two situations, but rather to suggest (or underline, since I don’t think many people actually disagree) that outreach has to be more than a quid pro quo.  If the focus of the white LGBT commuinty is just “How can we get the votes we want?” then it’s doomed to fail.  It has to start with what it demands: support for equal rights. For everybody.

Comment #1: Thom  on  12/12  at  11:39 PM

I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy the efforts to spin the black vote for Prop 8 as some kind of “failure of outreach.” Black people who voted for Obama and for Prop 8 were telling gay people, “I got mine and the hell with you.” That just stinks.

Comment #2: Bitter Scribe  on  12/12  at  11:56 PM

If the focus of the white LGBT commuinty is just “How can we get the votes we want?” then it’s doomed to fail.  It has to start with what it demands: support for equal rights. For everybody.

If the focus of the effort is just ideological purity, we’ll wait another generation. Drop the “just.” Getting the votes does not require us to abandon our principles. But it does require that we not browbeat a soft bigot who hasn’t thought enough about the issue. And aside from a few angels, we have all been soft bigots on one issue or another. In my case it wasn’t the purity police who brought me around (though it was someone who would not compromise.) Jim was wrong initially, but he was ended up voting the right way in the end because of a question. A question, not an accusation. Getting people to think is the way to convince. Pushing them into defending the indefensible backfires more often than not.

Comment #3: Craig Pennington  on  12/13  at  12:49 AM

I’m not entirely sure how the outreach was supposed to happen.  It’s not like Obama campaigned against Prop 8 - even though he was against it.

Comment #4: Crissa  on  12/13  at  12:59 AM

Way back in the dark ages, two or three years after Stonewall I went to the Berkeley Jazz Festival where I heard militant Black Nationalists rail against feminists and “queers.” We were tripping around Berkeley and saw the lesbians looking like men and and drag queens faggots looking like women.”

Now those people in Berkeley were solid supporters of the Black Panthers and many had been involved in the civil rights movement.

In the 70s I heard from black LGBT/T people in Hollywood about how they were outcasts in the black community and discriminated against in the white LGBT/T community.

I also remember way back to the days of SNCC when both black and white people died together during Freedom Summer.  Then white were told they didn’t have a place in the civil rights movement.

AS whitle LGBT/T people we need to confront our own racism and reach out to our fellow LGBT/T folks who are people of color but maybe they have to do the work in their own people of color communities since white people trying to do that work is hegemonic and imposing in a way that makes it hard to not come of as patronizing.

The first step is for people of color to come out in their own communities to their own families.

Comment #5: Suzy Q  on  12/13  at  01:30 AM

It is overwhelmingly clear that the No on 8 folks failed miserably with respect to outreach. As for what is and isn’t “morally laudatory” that’s a fool’s errand. The fact is that black (and latino) voters are not out of sync with the majority (whites) on this issue. There is tenuous support for civil unions and far from majoritarian support for marriage, and let’s not forget how contentious adoption is. Given this state of affairs there are two options: find a way to get the necessary votes and work on swaying hearts and minds as a long term strategy, or rail against blacks, latinos, mormons, baptists ... all the while alienating some of the very same people needed to help rally the cause. The gains of the Civil Rights era came about through long term strategizing and coalition building—the way to achieve gains is to swell ranks not dwindle them. Much has been made of Loving v. Virginia—it is less well known that the NAACP cherry picked this case (in part because of the couple’s last name) but also because this was a white male/black female pairing. The case hinged, then, on the right of a white male to have his union recognized by the state, and more importantly the transfer of property to his offspring. Had Mildred Loving been a white female (and Mr. Loving a black male), would the NAACP have advanced the case-probably not. Is this “morally laudatory,” absolutely not. Did Loving v.Virgina strike a major blow against the remnants of Jim Crow—yes. Was this a successful strategy—yes. Had the No on 8 campaign framed the issue within the context of Loving v. Virginia, and the perils of allowing popular referendums the ability to strip away the rights of a minority group, Prop 8 would have gone down in flames in the black community. This is a no brainer. As for outreach to the 50% of whites who voted Yes (and make up the majority in the state) what’s the plan here?

Comment #6: Max  on  12/13  at  02:06 AM

Sorry, but no one gets a pass on bigotry, and that includes black people.

Comment #7: pablo  on  12/13  at  05:01 AM

Craig & Max:

I think you’re both misreading me.  I’m not arguing for ideological purity or for browbeating.  I recognize the pragmatic value of cheering converts to issues of basic fairness, whether or not they’re entitled to it (think of the “you don’t get a cookie for being a feminist” argument).  I am convinced, though, that to the extent white LGBT folks who look at communities of color just, primarily, or first as a means of achieving the goal of a largely (though not exclusively!) white political movement* even this pragmatic outreach will fail.

On the other hand, if members of the white LGBT community who are justifiably upset that any person would endorse the oppression of LGBT folk were to recognize that they may have to answer to the same criticism for ignoring the issues of communities of color, everyone would be a lot better off, and real outreach will be possible.

Of course we want a strategy that works.  Realpolitk isn’t that strategy.  A full commitment to equal rights for everyone is.

*That is, a movement where whites are overrepresented in numbers and influence over policy, not one that is made up only of white people.

Comment #8: Thom  on  12/13  at  05:23 AM

When civil rights laws passed making it illegal to discriminate against blacks, it didn’t get rid of racism or discomfort with whites with blacks or vice versa.

You can’t legislate someone to understand, like or even respect you. For most reasonable people, they can overcome existing biases through exposure to the Other and conversations about those biases that is not accusatory but exploratory—thinking aloud about them and confronting how they make them feel.

I don’t need Jim to understand or empathize with the LGBT experience out of the box, but what I do need is for him not to discriminate when it comes to basic human rights and make the connection that it’s not an oppression olympics.

If he were truly bigoted and unmoveable on the issue, his conversation with John Dean would have gone nowhere. After all, it wasn’t even clear to Dean whether Jim’s mind had changed.

What we do know is that he wouldn’t have had a chance to change his mind had the conversations not occurred and Dean just went on the assumption many people make that somehow all blacks, or all religious blacks (or all hip hop artists, for that matter) are homophobes. For too many the prospect of getting out of comfort zones on both sides means no chance to broaden understanding, because of the fear of strong disagreement that may occur. In some cases it will, and in some cases it may go better than one thinks. But it is that element of risk that people want to avoid.

It’s too bad that as adults we become even more fixed in our thinking and it’s an effort to think and act outside of the box.

Comment #9: Pam Spaulding  on  12/13  at  10:11 AM

But when we DID present the issue as one of discrimination, the response we got (from black and non-black people alike) was, more often than not, “That’s not the same thing!”—-followed by a litany of reasons why gay people had no “right” to use the language of any facet of the civil-rights movement. “You’ve never had to sit at the back of the bus!” “People are born black; you chose to be gay!” “You could hide your homosexuality if you wanted to!” etc.

In other words, people focused immediately on the identities of the groups discriminated against, rather than focusing on the mindset and motives of those doing the discriminating.

The point was never that all oppressed people were identical. It was that most oppressors are. But that’s a damned hard point to make in a 30-second ad—-or even in a one-on-one conversation, if you haven’t had some practice.

Comment #10: FundamentallyFlawed  on  12/13  at  02:48 PM

Are we really saying that blacks aren’t capable of understanding what Prop 8 was, without a special education effort aimed at them?  Like they really don’t understand what “denies same-sex couples the right to marry” means? 

Sorry, but the outreach angle strikes me as a classic case of blaming the victim.  The vote showed us that plenty of blacks voted like anti-gay bigots ... and the proper response is to blame gays?

Comment #11: Beatrice  on  12/13  at  09:20 PM

Are we really saying that blacks aren’t capable of understanding what Prop 8 was, without a special education effort aimed at them?  Like they really don’t understand what “denies same-sex couples the right to marry” means?

I can say it’s true about LGBT rights generally when it comes to a lot of <u>progressives</u> who aren’t of color. Too many are woefully ignorant about the state of marriage equality in the various states, or what the legislation is about on the various initiatives. Trust me, I’ve had conversations with some. I think it’s foolish to think that there is no education necessary to get people educated on these topics. The vast majority of Americans, if the matter doesn’t affect them directly, don’t deal with the details that seem elementary to those it does effect, or those who are keenly interested in politics and follow the issues closely.

We take way too much for granted.

Comment #12: Pam Spaulding  on  12/14  at  08:22 AM

You can’t legislate someone to understand, like or even respect you.

But you can make it a criminal offense with jail and monetary penalties. Tolerance is not enough.
Acceptance is not enough. They must be forced to like us, sent to re-education camps and punished for incorrect thinking. Only then will we all be happy!

Comment #13: Hom Lee  on  12/14  at  12:59 PM
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