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Next entry: Maybe I’m being overly credulous, but… Previous entry: In Black World, Nouns Are Verbs And Verbs Are Magic Planes With Puppy Pilots

JUST BE NORMAL AGAIN

A couple of weeks ago, I got my hands on the training manual for the courses that anti-choice group Justice For All uses in its courses.  It’s 113 pages, so I only scanned in about a dozen, because there are only so many hours in the day, and most of the book is workbook stuff and scriptures. But it’s super-interesting stuff, and I wrote about what’s in it in the context of the assassination of Dr. Tiller.  If you want a sample of the handbook to read yourself—-and I highly recommend this—-you can get the PDF of the pages I scanned in here.

Justice For All is clearly an organization that was created simply to go on campus and protest, with the knowledge that students will come up and argue with you.  From watching them extensively (they set up their tables near where I live), I get the strong impression that they like targeting colleges because the women on college are who they believe their target audience to be—-young, nubile girls whose young nubility is of utmost importance to anti-choicers, as Jessica Valenti has chronicled in The Purity Myth.  Only student organizations are allowed to have tables on campus, and the one thing that jumps out at you when witnessing a Justice For All protest is how unlikely it is that the protesters are students, unless every middle-aged student on campus is an anti-choice nut.  I hate to say it, but I suspect what they do is get a single student to register them, and then they get the prime locations on campus for tabling by being the scary anti-choicers you really don’t want to piss off. They don’t threaten, of course.  It’s just that at this point the pro-life movement has built up such a reputation that people just try to avoid conflict with them.  One thing is for certain—-they have money.  When they show up, they build a two story tall 3D display of fetus pictures next to pictures of Holocaust victims, and they have a small fence that the protesters stand behind.

This handbook is something else.  It’s hard to really pick out the most shocking parts, so I dedicate time to a number in the Reality Check piece.  But I think the part that was honestly most telling was the strong, repeated instructions to practice showing concern for women.  Readers are told that the big mistake anti-choicers make is railroading over women as if they don’t matter, and you really lose credibility.  You’re given sound bites to show concern (their words), because, and this is important—-if you show contempt for women who die from illegal abortions, you lose credibility.  They don’t come right out and say to fake concern, but that’s the gist of it.

These manuals are given out in classes, so I imagine they role-play faking concern and other tactics, such as not coming right out and saying that you think the birth control pill is murder and condoms are wicked.  Because of this, there’s some notes scribbled on it.  Some of them make some sense, but others are a mystery.  My favorite, written in all caps with a heavy hand, so the owner of the manual doesn’t forget it, is this:

JUST BE NORMAL AGAIN


There’s a story there, I’m sure.  I have my theories, with my strongest being that the class instructors know that the personal weirdness of anti-choicers is generally off-putting, so it’s critical to ape the customs of the normies.  Perhaps the guy who owned this was once not-crazy, and perhaps his strategy is to tap into the person he was before he got caught up in the cult of fetus worship. 

Here are two analogies I’m hearing that are being employed to distract people from the fact that Dr. Tiller was killed after being targeted for harassment, vandalism, arson, and even a prior murder attempt.  “Pinning Roeder on all pro-life protesters is like pinning the 9/11 terrorists on all Muslims” and “pinning Roeder on all pro-life protesters is like pinning Valerie Solonas on all feminists”.  These are both poor analogies, used not to enlighten but to conceal.

The flaw in the first analogy should be obvious. Pinning the 9/11 attack on all Muslims is actually like pinning Roeder on all Christians.  No one is doing this.  What we are doing is looking directly at the movement he’s in, and holding them accountable.  This is much closer to holding the Taliban responsible for 9/11. They may not have directly killed people, but they inculcated a specific ideology, set up training camps, built up a culture of violence, and shielded people who openly wanted to be terrorists.  Few people would say their hands are clean.  The activist pro-life movement has the same relationship with the few that decide to risk jail and commit murder or arson.  It took the Washington Post no time at all to find a bunch of people who knew Roeder well, knew that he was obsessed with violence and prone to vandalism, and who did nothing.  Why?  Because, I suspect, that’s SOP for them.  Why?  Well, the people the Post found wouldn’t even put forth a disingenuous condemnation to cover their own asses, like the leadership does (while immediately claiming or at least implying that Dr. Tiller had it coming). 

Look, Roeder was caught vandalizing a clinic the day before the assassination.  That sort of thing is so routine that they can’t even be bothered to give a shit.  People who actually work at clinics can testify that “non-violent” is not what they’re up against.  Intimidation is not non-violent, and people can see that when it’s other issues.  Claiming that arsons and doctor murders don’t implicate the larger anti-choice movement is like claiming that arsons and activist murders in the 60s against civil rights workers don’t implicate people in the informal white supremacist resistance who stuck to burning crosses, but didn’t pull the trigger.

Onto Valerie Solanas’ relationship with the feminist movement, and the relationship of her shooting of Andy Warhol to her feminism.  It’s a weak link.  Warhol wasn’t shot as a terrorist act.  He was shot by an unstable person who blamed him personally for her life failures.  Her relationship with the feminist movement only started after she was in jail, and in the context of the times, that makes a lot more sense.  Radical feminists were part of the larger leftist movement that abhorred the justice system, period, and were always casting around for an excuse to find new prisoners to defend.  It was stupid, sure, but in no way, shape, or form does it mean that Warhol was attacked because of a political disagreement with him.  Unlike Dr. Tiller, Warhol wasn’t some hate object for feminists.  Protesters didn’t stake out the Factory. Feminist groups didn’t scream at people going in and out of it, and no irate feminists tried to bomb it.  There wasn’t some anti-pop art movement that was a subset of the feminist movement that used harassment and intimidation its strategies. No one wrote diatribes about how Warhol was a Nazi who murdered for pleasure, and they certainly didn’t spout those diatribes on TV.  Her SCUM Manifesto was unpublished until she made herself famous by being a criminal in the era where movies like “Bonnie and Clyde” lionized criminals.  The people who defended Solanas were out of their fucking minds, but they did not provoke her to violence, or give her a target. 

The point is that just because your sweet grandmother has some fetus jewelry doesn’t mean that the anti-choice movement gets a pass.  Sweet grandmothers supported segregation, and they are part of the system that led to church bombings and assassinations, too. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:19 AM • (96) Comments

Kay, I’ve had it.
I need some help from Panda lawyers.
Could we charge these yahoos with “tortious interference?”

To wit:

Tortious interference, in the common law of tort, occurs when a person intentionally damages the plaintiff’s contractual or other business relationships. This tort is broadly divided into two categories, one specific to contractual relationships (irrespective of whether they involve business), and the other specific to business relationships or activities (irrespective of whether they involve a contract).

Tortious interference with contract rights can occur where the tortfeasor convinces a party to breach the contract against the plaintiff, or where the tortfeasor disrupts the ability of one party to perform his obligations under the contract, thereby preventing the plaintiff from receiving the performance promised. The hardcore instance of this tort occurs when one party induces another party to breach a contract with a third party, in circumstances where the first party has no privilege to act as it does and acts with knowledge of the existence of the contract. Such conduct is termed tortious inducement of breach of contract.

Tortious interference with business relationships occurs where the tortfeasor acts to prevent the plaintiff from successfully establishing or maintaining business relationships. This tort may occur when a first party’s conduct intentionally causes a second party not to enter into a business relationship with a third party that otherwise would probably have occurred. Such conduct is termed tortious interference with prospective business relations, expectations, or advantage or with prospective economic advantage.

An early, perhaps the earliest, instance of recognition of this tort occurred in Garret v. Taylor, 79 Eng. Rep. 485 (K.B. 1620). In that case, the defendant drove customers away from the plaintiff’s quarry <u>by threatening them with mayhem</u> and also threatening to “vex [them] with suits.” The King’s Bench court said that “the defendant threatened violence to the extent of committing an assault upon ... customers of the plaintiff ... whereupon ‘they all desisted from buying.’’ The court therefore upheld a judgment for the plaintiff.

(emphasis mine)
I don’t know enough about torts to have a respectable opinion but, hey, I’m just askin’.

Comment #1: Magis  on  06/03  at  11:52 AM

Well, for that matter, it’s illegal (I think) for them to take video of the people entering the clinic, but it’s not illegal for them to set up an empty video camera. Um, how is that even remotely within the spirit of the law?

Comment #2: Essie Elephant  on  06/03  at  12:02 PM

JUST BE NORMAL AGAIN

... he read off his manual in the privacy of his dorm room, teeth gritted as he flogged his testicles and tried desperately not to think about how much his Justice for All team-mate looked like Brad Pitt. “Just ... be ... OUCH! ... normal ... again!”

Comment #3: Gracchus.  on  06/03  at  12:06 PM

Magis, those are racketeering laws, right?  The Supreme Court found that they don’t apply to anti-choice protesters, and pointed out that there’s already laws to protect clinics from being blockaded.  I guess those laws aren’t forceful enough. 

A more clever strategy would be to make sure that terrorism and intimidation tactics don’t work.  Hilzoy suggested that the response to Dr. Tiller’s murder should be a law mandating training for late term abortions in medical school and federally subsidizing all 3rd trimester abortions, which are, after all, all medically indicated.  That would be the most efficient way to shut it down. Too bad Democrats think it’s politically toxic, but if they were smart, they’d pass a law expanding women’s access to abortion and contraception every single time there was an incident, and name the bill after the targeted people or clinics.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  12:14 PM

“Currently, it’s very dangerous to open fire on an elementary school playground. Should we make it legal to do this so that it’s safer?”

...

This handbook is a joke, right?

(I especially like how a fertilized egg that never implants is referred to as a “child starved to death.”)

Comment #5: Katie Joy  on  06/03  at  12:15 PM

Yep, Katie Joy ... more ignorance of basic biology there. 

After all, who is the biggest abortionist of all?  The biggest, baddest “starver of children” by their definitions of the world? 

GOD!  Of course. 

So, if fertilized eggs not implanting and miscarriages are abortions, the best way to prevent the largest number of these things from happening should logically be to PRAY TO GOD NONSTOP TO STOP HIS HOLOCAUST OF THE UNBORN!

Comment #6: Ms Kate  on  06/03  at  12:18 PM

It’s very, very real.  It is not a joke. This is actually standard issue rhetoric in the anti-choice movement.  They aren’t marginal.  This is the standard across the movement.  Actually, JFA is more moderate than some anti-choice groups who do call for bans on contraception, such as the American Life League.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  12:22 PM

I had mentioned that very point to the husband last night: that after 9/11, Muslim groups came out an roundly declared that Islam was a religion of peace, that the hijackers and terrorists were not representative of the Muslim community, and that what happened was a horrific tragedy and an act of terrorism.

No mainstream Islamic group stated “we’re a religion of peace, but y’know, the U.S’s policies are soooooo harmful to the Muslim world and it’s really too bad but this didn’t have to happen, you know, and really, the U.S. sort of deserved it.”

They didn’t say this because that would be victim blaming and siding with terrorists, and any group that said something even remotely close to that would have been on an FBI watch list faster than you could say Assalam. 

But the anti-choice movement is so comfortable with the language of victim-blaming, and so assured in their own safety because they have a powerful brigade of politicians and talking heads who will scream bloody murder if anyone treats their threats for what they are, that they’re absolutely fine with saying things like “Tiller reaped what he sowed.”

If you look at the domestic groups that are on the U.S.‘s terrorist watch list, it’s clear that Operation Rescue and its contemporaries deserve to be on the list. ELF doesn’t have any casualties associated with its activities and sympathizers. PETA doesn’t. The Weather Underground, for chrissakes, only had fatalities amongst its own members. All of these organizations are being watched by the FBI. There have been several intentional murders, not to mention countless vandalisms and bombings and intimidations by the anti-choice terrorists. We need to stop molly-coddling these groups and treat them for what they are.

Comment #8: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/03  at  12:23 PM

Amanda:

No, they are not racketeering laws.  They are strictly business laws and pre-existed RICCO.

If you make paint and I go around and untruthfully tell everyone your paint sucks, that’s tortious interference.  If someone is about to sign a contract with you and I untruthfully tell them all sorts of horrid things about you, that’s tortious interfence.  If I threaten your potential customers with bad consequences for doing business with you, that’s tortious interference.  Clinics are, after all, businesses.  Even if they are not-for-profits, they’re still businesses. 

Not to argue with Hilzoy, but, good luck.  This is something already on the books and I just wonder if it isn’t worth a try.

Comment #9: Magis  on  06/03  at  12:24 PM

It’s always worth a try, Magis.  One reason that there hasn’t been much interest in fighting back against picketers is that, during the Bush administration, the numbers went down pretty dramatically, and more overt tactics like trying to block doors receded.  Now they’re going back up, because right wing terrorism is shockingly partisan.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  12:32 PM

Better definition.  Here’s from the Georgia statute

The Georgia Code states the basic principle that “every act of another which unlawfully interferes with the enjoyment of personal property is a tort for which an action shall lie.” The courts have further defined the claim of tortious interference to require proof that the defendant did the following: (1) acted improperly and without privilege; (2) acted purposefully and maliciously with intent to injure; (3) induced a third party or parties not to enter into or continue a business relationship with the plaintiff; and (4) caused the plaintiff some financial injury. In order to support a claim for tortious interference with contract, there must also be proof of a contractual relationship. <u>A claim for tortious interference with business relations, however, may be actionable even when there is no contract.</u> “Business relations” has been broadly defined to include inchoate rights which a party has or hopes to have.

Comment #11: Magis  on  06/03  at  12:33 PM

The problem with suing for tortious interference is that it plays right into the hands of anti-choicers who like to claim that pro-choice is about protecting the profits of eeevil men trying to make zillions off poor gullible women. 

We don’t really object to clinic harassment because we are afraid clinics aren’t going to make enough money. We object because women are being intimidated, harassed and shamed, and because doctors are being terrorized.  I think lawyers involved in this issue need to play it straight.

Comment #12: Laurie  on  06/03  at  12:40 PM

The anti-abortion crowd really is like the Klan and segregationists. They are highly effective terrorists who are well-shielded from consequences by sympathetic and merely expedient politicians. Al-Qaeda might make a big splash, but American reactionaries get that terror is only effective at the grassroots level.

On a different note, a friend of mine is a professor at Notre Dame and she describes the serious wackos who infest that campus regularly, especially during Obama’s visit. Apparently there is a van that drives around campus covered in dead fetus pictures. It shows up everywhere including the football games. Despite the conservative reputation of the campus, the “fetus truck” is widely hated. People throw things at it, which I’m sure give the driver his martyr jollies. Strangely, no one seems to even know where it comes from.

Comment #13: histro-geek  on  06/03  at  12:40 PM

A fetus truck at football games?  Srsly?  Gads, I’d be so tempted to ask if they had a victualler’s license or other permit that a hotdog stand has!

Comment #14: Ms Kate  on  06/03  at  12:41 PM

Ms Kate—keyboard, tea, owe, etc.

Comment #15: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/03  at  12:44 PM

Awesomely evil, Ms. Kate. Mind you, talking to anyone who thinks it’s a good use of his (of course it’s a his) time to drive around a relatively conservative campus with dead “babies” on his truck seems risky.

Comment #16: histro-geek  on  06/03  at  12:48 PM

Magis, just to continue what Laurie said, “tortious interference” requires the plaintiff to show that he/she/it lost money as a result of the unlawful behavior.  So the only people who could sue would be for-profit clinics, and the only relief they could get was the revenue driven away by the demonstrators.  Because clinics don’t really make money at the door, so to speak, the claim wouldn’t be worth filing.

The law used to be more open to “interference” claims that didn’t involve lost money.  For example, there used to be a claim called alienation of affections, where you could sue someone for wrecking your marriage: not only your spouse’s lover but an interfering in-law and the like.  A few states still have that claim, but it’s pretty much a dead letter.

Comment #17: Unree  on  06/03  at  12:49 PM

They don’t come right out and say to fake concern, but that’s the gist of it.

That’s it exactly.  Fake concern for women, or you lose the argument.  Not “make sure they know we care about the pregnant woman just as much as her unborn child”, just make sure they don’t catch you at valuing the baby more, b/c you won’t win then.

You know what I’ve realized…the pro-lifers have already won a big big thing…they have the public believing that their protests are non-violent.

How do most people on the left protest?  We march on Washington.  We have parades.  We hold up signs outside speeches.

How do anti-choice terrorists protest?  By threatening women going into to health centers.  By vandalizing said health centers.  By videotaping or pretending to videotape the people working or using the centers—implied threat that going to or working in a health center is bad and that they will hunt you down later.  They march on Washington, too, but standing around threatening women is their big thing, and they’ve managed to get that labelled as “free speech” and “non-violent”.

It has to stop.  They can’t be allowed anywhere near abortion providers anymore.  Abortion is legal; interfering with the operation of a legal business is illegal.  Their protests need to be at the courthouses and legislative offices—>you know, where they can be effective as opposed to being terrorists. 

They don’t want abortion centers to be legal?  Then focus attacks on the lawmakers that can change that.  There’s no point in protesting at an abortion center b/c it’s a legal place of business, and all they can do there is threaten, intimidate and otherwise cause terror.

Legitimate protests should not include screaming at women and threatening anyone.  That is NOT non-violent, and by allowing it to go on, we’ve created an environment where the crazies feel safe enough to come out of the woodwork and attack.

If Roeder had been arrested after vandalizing the clinic—they had his license number and video evidence, Tiller might still be alive.  Timothy McVeigh was caught due to a traffic violation.  Had Roeder been caught doing a minor crime, he might not have escalated.

Comment #18: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/03  at  12:51 PM

Can’t. Unread.

Pretty much all of the manual is “pretend like you’re arguing in good faith”.

I wonder if the crazies haven’t learned something from the gay rights movement: if you know someone as an apparently reasonable human being, it’s harder to take action against them, even if you disapprove of what they believe and what they do. Because I can’t imagine these discussions actually taking anyone in and changing their minds. What I can imagine is the discussions making some pro-choice people think that the forced-pregnancy movement isn’t composed entirely of woman-hating psychotic rage junkies.

Comment #19: paul  on  06/03  at  12:55 PM

Unree:

Not really after monetary relief but rather an injunction against continuing the interference.

Comment #20: Magis  on  06/03  at  12:55 PM

It’s not an accident that picketers prefer to be in places where they can eyeball young, fertile women they either know or suspect are sexually active.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  01:00 PM

I just love the anonymous “peaceful pro-life liberal Democrat atheist” who’s horrified at third-trimester abortions on Amanda’s RH Reality Check post. He doesn’t believe in the soul, but late-term abortions are horrifying because… well, because!

Comment #22: Clio  on  06/03  at  01:03 PM

Not really after monetary relief but rather an injunction against continuing the interference.

Not available.  The claim fails right from the get-go unless you can point to money that you are losing because of the interference.  FWIW, I have never heard of an injunction being given in *any* tortious interference case, even one that was okay on the money point and this one isn’t.  Tort law really hates that device.  It figures that if the harm is money, you can fix the harm with a monetary judgment after it happens.

Comment #23: Unree  on  06/03  at  01:10 PM

All this talk of protestors just makes me want to drop by the nearest abortion clinic once a week and walk in as a hypothetical patient as a counter-protest.

But then, you know, I’m scared I might get shot. Terrorism does that, I guess.

Comment #24: Essie Elephant  on  06/03  at  01:12 PM

Essie, patients have been hurt in terrorist attacks, I do believe, but only when they can find a cheap excuse to wash their hands of it, like claiming they didn’t know.  Targeting patients makes no sense.  Despite the fact that the anti-choice movement claims no responsibility, the terrorists make sure to adhere to the sanctity of fetal life structure by avoiding directly killing anyone with a fetus in her.

Of course, if you bomb a clinic, you put fetuses in danger.  But Eric Rudolph’s lame excuse in that case was that the bombs went off at the wrong time.  I don’t believe him, and do believe that bombing is meant to scare patients away from the clinic.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  01:29 PM

I was just at Jill Stanek’s blog, where she has post photographs of Dr. Carhart’s late term abortion clinic in Nebraska.  The clinic (which was just refurbished following a fire) looks all grotty and yucky,  and appears to be located in a sketchy-looking area of run-down buildings.  I am not sure what her point is exactly.  I think she and her commenters are expressing faux outrage—on behalf of the women, you know—that Dr. Carhart isn’t providing a better facility for his patients. 

It gets better though.  One of the commenters suggests that Dr. Carhart’s parking lot is not ADA compliant because there is no visible handicapped parking spot.  He also notes that the building may be required to have an elevator to the second floor—which could cost the clinic $50,000 to install—and provides contact information for entities that could presumably force Dr. Carhart to put in the elevator.  I am so glad the anti-choicers are so concerned about ensuring access for patients, family members, and employees in wheelchairs! 

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2009/06/partial_birth_a_2.html#more

P.S. I am not so sure that this building isn’t in compliance.  It is not clear whether there was a parking space or not.  Also, older buildings are exempt.  Also, to sue, you would need an actual person with a disability to say that he or she wanted access to the clinic and were unable to get it.  Finally, I am pretty offended at the cynical suggestion of using a disabilities rights issue as an excuse to shut down a medical facility.

Comment #26: Laurie  on  06/03  at  01:30 PM

*gives up*

Comment #27: Magis  on  06/03  at  01:30 PM

Sorry to be off-topic, but I thought it was a nice example of these people’s inherent dishonesty.

Comment #28: Laurie  on  06/03  at  01:31 PM

Magis - my only concern in using that law - saying that the protesters interfere with legitimate business - could be feeding into the antis’ claims of “They’re in it for the money! They’re in the business of murder! George Tiller made himself millions killing babies!” We’d have to balance the benefit of keeping protesters away from clinics with the risk of supporting one of their asinine accusations.

Histro-geek - we have one of those at the University of Alabama. He likes to hang out on campus and shout at wretched, immoral students. There’s even have a song about him, and I wish I could take credit, but it’s not mine:

(to the tune of “Spider-man”)

Fetus Man, Fetus Man
Drives around in a fetus-van.
Cruises college Friday nights,
Shouting at the sodomites.
Look out! Here comes Fetus Man!

Comment #29: ACG  on  06/03  at  01:31 PM

“Pinning the 9/11 attack on all Muslims is actually like pinning Roeder on all Christians.  No one is doing this.  What we are doing is looking directly at the movement he’s in, and holding them accountable.  This is much closer to holding the Taliban responsible for 9/11.”

Pro-life Christians don’t consider pro-choicers to be real Christians, even if they’re shot in a church.  If you’re blaming the whole pro-life movement for their violent rhetoric and protesting styles, then -in their view- you’re blaming all Christians.

Comment #30: sparrowsong  on  06/03  at  01:36 PM

saying that the protesters interfere with legitimate business - could be feeding into the antis’ claims of “They’re in it for the money! They’re in the business of murder! George Tiller made himself millions killing babies!”

I mean, this is a good point. If we DON’T use the law, they’ll stop saying that.

Wait…

Sorry to snark, but I’m never much for the “playing into their hands” argument. Reminds me too much of why so many of our Democrats pass up good opportunities.

Comment #31: Essie Elephant  on  06/03  at  01:37 PM

People who wonder why these homocidal loons and their enablers aren’t on FBI watch lists might want to consider two things about the past 15 years.

First, the FBI director from 1993 to 2001 was a very devout, conservative Roman Catholic who hated the Clinton administration and the Democrats and who had such partisan ties to the GOP that even Business Week  (that lefty rag!) was calling for his removal.  (He also hated computers and data management, too, which is something to consider when one wonders how all those field agents reporting to FBI HQ about “no landing” flight lessons found their reports disappearing into a soundless void.)

Second, the FBI director from 2001 to the present was appointed by and served under a President who personally believed—and was maintained largely in office by—the 25% or so of Americans who believe that abortion should never, ever, ever, ever be permitted.

Make of those what you will. 

Consider, too, that local police forces feel it appropriate to infiltrate Quaker (!) organizations and micro-tiny DFH groups, but tell clinics and their workers—who are stalked to and threatened at home—to go piss up a rope.

Comment #32: seeker6079  on  06/03  at  01:38 PM

Laurie:Trust me on this. They’re out there.

Comment #33: Karmakin  on  06/03  at  01:39 PM

Clio, late term abortions ARE horrifying.  I know women who have been rather horrified to have found themselves in such a horrifying situation that they require one!

That doesn’t mean, of course, that late term abortions and access to such vital medical care is not necessary in extreme situations.  Amputations and massive en-bloc tumor resections are horrifying too.

Comment #34: Ms Kate  on  06/03  at  01:40 PM

It’s too bad there’s no elegant way to set the text of that document to Faith No More’s “We Care a Lot”

Comment #35: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/03  at  01:49 PM

and most of the book is workbook stuff and scriptures.

I can’t imagine which scriptures they cite, considering that the Bible makes it clear that ending a pregnancy is not murder.

Comment #36: bananacat  on  06/03  at  01:50 PM

Seeker,
It’s exactly what happened to civil rights workers in the 60s. The FBI was wiretapping King and others looking for Commie infiltration with an obsessiveness usually reserved for the mentally ill while the Klan is planting bombs, kidnapping, and murdering dozens. But Klan activity was somehow a mere state matter. The FBI, of course, had no such reluctance hunting down the Panthers or SDS involved in state crimes.

Comment #37: histro-geek  on  06/03  at  01:51 PM

MPG: I award you an Internet

Comment #38: realityfighter  on  06/03  at  01:55 PM

I just love the anonymous “peaceful pro-life liberal Democrat atheist” who’s horrified at third-trimester abortions on Amanda’s RH Reality Check post. He doesn’t believe in the soul, but late-term abortions are horrifying because… well, because!

Well it’s a great thing that fewer than 1% of all abortions are done during the third trimester, because late-term abortions really are horrifying.  What’s even more horrifying though is a woman dying and usually taking the fetus with her because a life-saving abortion is unavailable.  Unnecessary death to prove and ideological point is the most horrifying thing I can think of.  What else is really horrifying is finding out late in pregnancy that your child will have no chance of surviving more than a few hours after birth, and being forced to carry to term anyway, and then watch the baby suffer and die in a few hours.  That’s a lot more horrifying than the alternative of late-term abortion.

Comment #39: bananacat  on  06/03  at  02:01 PM

You know, in all logical honesty, I’m surprised that late term abortions aren’t considered more okay than early term ones. Clearly, in early term ones, women are just evil sluts who don’t want the babies at all. They don’t even care! But in the later term ones, the women wanted to be good christian mothers.

Of course, there’s no reason to look for logic or consistency, and it’s pointless to argue with these people, etc etc etc…

Comment #40: Seebach  on  06/03  at  02:08 PM

The manual looks like a quick-reference of rhetorical tactics during an argument. Which is exactly what it needs to be for their supposed purpose: win an argument, get converts. Bonus points if you can film a pro-choicer flailing during the argument and post it on the interwebs.

One catch: I know I’m terrible at debates, and I’m not alone.  I seize up when people get confrontational with me or try to lead me down a path that has basic assumptions I disagree with. I’m not good at articulating my thoughts. But this doesn’t mean I can be argued out of them. I will just reach a point where I refuse to engage further because the conversation is going nowhere. My mind won’t be changed one whit.

Which leads me to ask: if we can’t even begin to agree on basic premises, then maybe the anti-choicer gets to pump their ego by defeating me in a debate at which I fully acknowledge I suck, but, for real, how does that further their cause?

Comment #41: cycles  on  06/03  at  02:11 PM

Seebach: Yes, exactly! But they have a quick answer for that: the only case where a woman can legitimately have a late-term abortion is one in which the baby is definitely going to die. They say that ectopic pregnancy is the only “valid” reason for an abortion because the fetus will definitely die anyway, but they say that pre-eclampsia, eclampsia, etc., are all fake reasons for abortion because there’s a small chance that the fetus could be born alive and live for a while. And the mother doesn’t have the right to stop a pregnancy that could maim or kill her because, hey, babies!

Comment #42: cycles  on  06/03  at  02:16 PM

Oh, I don’t disagree in the least that late-term abortions actually are horrifying, nor that the alternatives are even more horrifying.

I was amused (well, “amused”) because I took Anonymous’s comment at RHRC to mean that late-term abortions are morally horrifying, and - as a liberal atheist who doesn’t believe in souls - his only reasoning was apparently that he saw some icky-looking “aborted baby” photographs somewhere (no doubt blown up and displayed by a Justice For All-esque group), and got duped (just like they intended).

Of course, it’s just as likely that this person isn’t an atheist, a liberal, or a Democrat, and was just being a disingenuous liar.

Comment #43: Clio  on  06/03  at  02:21 PM

Laurie, that shit on Stanek’s blog is appalling. As a disability rights advocate, I can assure you that the mere fact they don’t have an elevator doesn’t mean that they aren’t accessible. If they have operating rooms, bathrooms, conference rooms, and whatever else they need on the first floor, no problem. Also, like you said, some older buildings are excepted (sadly, my old law school had a non-accessible building which they weren’t required to change).

I like how the pro-lifers are complaining that the facility is shitty. It’s like, dude, don’t you think that they POLICIES YOU ADVOCATE (like, e.g. abortion providers can not receive federal or state money, unlike EVERY OTHER HEALTH CARE PROVIDER EVERYWHERE) have anything to do with that? They’re so fucking dense.

Comment #44: m_leblanc  on  06/03  at  02:22 PM

maybe the anti-choicer gets to pump their ego by defeating me in a debate at which I fully acknowledge I suck, but, for real, how does that further their cause?

They get your attention, they get to waste your time, and they get to feel important because someone smarter than them acknowledged their existence. If you’re young, female, and hot, it’s almost like they got to kiss you.

Comment #45: junk science  on  06/03  at  02:23 PM

This is off topic and I will post on this specific issue later but I jus though people would be interested.

At www.glaad.org there is a call to action piece about two radio hosts from Sacramento who encouraged humiliation and violence against transgender children. THe transcript almost made me puke. Never appropriate at any time and fucking criminal at a time when kids are harassed, beaten up and killed for their sexual and gender orientation.

“Take Action: Demand that KRXQ Hosts Rob Williams and Arnie States Apologize for Encouraging Violence Against Transgender Children”

Can anyone point to a quick HTML guide? I would love to start including links and other features. Thanks!

Comment #46: HooksInMyHead  on  06/03  at  02:24 PM

Apparently I am at war with the letter “T”.

Just thought you should know that.

Comment #47: HooksInMyHead  on  06/03  at  02:28 PM

I am not sure what her point is exactly.

She explains how his electrical systems work and talks about how they need to shut it down.  I think I know what her point is.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  02:29 PM

m_lebianc: “I like how the pro-lifers are complaining that the facility is shitty. It’s like, dude, don’t you think that they POLICIES YOU ADVOCATE (like, e.g. abortion providers can not receive federal or state money, unlike EVERY OTHER HEALTH CARE PROVIDER EVERYWHERE) have anything to do with that? They’re so fucking dense. “

Heh. Or the fact that if they do get their way and the facility becomes fully ADA compliant, it will mean a previously under-served group of people will now have improved access to abortions.

Comment #49: cycles  on  06/03  at  02:30 PM

Magis, if you’re a lawyer, it’s worth your time to contact the National Women’s Law Center and outline the strategy.

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  02:32 PM

How do most people on the left protest?  We march on Washington.  We have parades.  We hold up signs outside speeches.

<Looks at his nicknames, slinks away quietly so as not to ruin the moral superiority argument.>

Or not.

If we’re going for a more all-encompassing view of the whole Left instead of merely its ‘respectable’ wing, the difference is the Left in general attacks institutions (corporations, government agencies) whereas the Right attacks citizens. It’s the same difference as the difference between Leftist humor (attacks authority figures and institutions) and Right-wing ‘humor’ (attacks the poor, downtrodden, kicks people already down).

I will make an exception for such groups as SHAC, who do show up at private citizen (scientists, investors)‘s house to make protests. Also, the antifa movement also tends to go after individuals (self-identified fascists). However, animal rights/ecology is not, prima facia, a left-wing movement anyway, even when it has a filiation to it. It is mostly ‘agnostic’ on left/right (i.e. economic) issues. As for the antifas, well, sometimes you just have to fight fire with fire. The right-wing fascists/terrorists are usually individuals or small groups of radicals rather than institutions. The work of antifas, though, tends to bleed into copwatch activism and other forms that do work against institutions.

The thing on the left that looks the most like the forced birthers is the animal rights movement. However, contrary to the forced birthers, I have rarely seen them argue from bad faith. The number of people that are into animal rights because of a secondary agenda (say, anti-technology or anti-scientism outlook) tends to be a lot lower than the number of misogynists in the forced births movement.

Comment #51: BlackBloc  on  06/03  at  02:33 PM

So basically, this manual is teaching people that to get their way, they should be a Nice Guy(tm).

Comment #52: NY Expat  on  06/03  at  02:42 PM

Carhart’s office is admittedly hideous.  Guess why

Those imposing concrete blast walls exist because “pro-lifers” are prone to violence against women’s health care providers. Clinic facades can look a little shabby because, well, wouldn’t you rather have your health care provider spending the money on medical equipment rather than siding? Not to mention the fact that many states have laws, designed to target abortion providers, which require expensive interior renovations to change air-circulation methods, heighten ceilings, and widen halls and doorways.

The safest thing to do is do what he did, which is set up in a warehouse district and use the physical size of the buildings to create a safe interior for your patients.  Apparently, the interior is professional and comforting.

Anti-choicers set up a catch-22 when it comes to the niceness of the facilities.  If your place is nice, they accuse you of being rich profit hounds.  If it’s not nice, they dwell on how it looks terrible, before calling you a profit hound.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  02:58 PM

There is a reason that aborted near-full term babies are “icky”.  I can usually find evidence of pre-birth pathology in nearly every damn one of them!

Comment #54: Ms Kate  on  06/03  at  02:59 PM

My immediate reading of the head “JUST BE NORMAL AGAIN” was that it referred to a woman’s desire to return to her prior normal state of being not pregnant.  You can imagine my disappointment that it’s just a <strike>bullying</strike> debate tactic for the forced-birthers.

Comment #55: kaninchen  on  06/03  at  03:07 PM

Oh, I don’t disagree in the least that late-term abortions actually are horrifying, nor that the alternatives are even more horrifying.

Clio, I didn’t mean all that stuff I said to be aimed at you personally.  But you should bring up all those points next time you talk to your liberal atheist friend.  We all know that atheist aren’t necesarrily more rational than anyone else, and we’re all swayed by emotions.  So since the idea of OMG! killing a precious cute baby! makes him feel yucky, then make him feel yuckyer about OMG! women dying and taking their precious babies with them!

Comment #56: bananacat  on  06/03  at  03:08 PM

This doesn’t surprise me one bit.  Certainly, my college pro-life group could use some help showing concern for women: http://fupaper.wordpress.com/2009/03/24/because-thats-not-what-were-passionate-about/

Comment #57: EGhead  on  06/03  at  03:16 PM

well, the upside to the whole ridiculous “carhart’s office is sketchy/gross/scarryyyyyy OMGZZ!!!eleven” post is that it kind of undercuts the anti-choicers’ whole argument that abortion doctors are manipulating stupid women into ending their pregnancies so the doctors can reap the financial benefits and pay for all those diamond-encrusted ferraris with dead babies, or whatever it is they’re on about.

Comment #58: chareth cutestory  on  06/03  at  03:17 PM

I can’t imagine which scriptures they cite, considering that the Bible makes it clear that ending a pregnancy is not murder.

Catgirl, in my experience, the favorite is the “you knit me in my mother’s womb” stuff from, ah, Jeremiah, I believe. (Too lazy to Google.) Which I like to interpret literally with God going all knit 1, perl 1, knit 1,...

Comment #59: Essie Elephant  on  06/03  at  03:19 PM

Carhart has spent a lot of money involving himself in the legal side of things.  It was he who sued the federal government in an attempt to overturn the D&X;ban.

Comment #60: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  03:21 PM

Catgirl, in my experience, the favorite is the “you knit me in my mother’s womb” stuff from, ah, Jeremiah, I believe. (Too lazy to Google.) Which I like to interpret literally with God going all knit 1, perl 1, knit 1,…

Psalms, actually.  We had this event in college about interfaith dialogue and reproductive rights, and the token pro-lifer there asked the Jewish representative about that verse, quoting the whole thing from memory and clearly very proud of herself.  The rep replied that actually, those Psalms are very metaphorical and not to be taken literally in her tradition.  That shut the questioner up real quick.

Comment #61: micheyd  on  06/03  at  03:24 PM

Isn’t Jill Stanek the one who was mocking women who had funerals for the children they lost because, apparently, choosing to spare your future child from a short, pain-filled life was incompatible with loving and caring for them?

I seriously think Stanek is mentally ill.  She makes up these fantastical stories (“OMG! Babies abandoned in hospital closets until they die!”) and seems to genuinely believe them.

Comment #62: Mnemosyne  on  06/03  at  03:25 PM

One catch: I know I’m terrible at debates, and I’m not alone.

I’m actually fairly persuasive even sometimes when I don’t intend to be, so I’ll offer a little advice.  The most important thing in a debate is to remain calm.  If you become angry, the person will feel like it’s a personal attack and they will refuse to listen.  (They’ll probably refuse to listen anyway, but it might sink in later.)

Second, make sure you know what you’re talking about.  Be more informed about the issue than they are.  Anyone reading this blog should already have a good grasp of the facts.

We already know that they are being insincere when they claim to “just care about they baybeez!”  Call them on it in a non-threatening way.  Ask how they feel about rape exceptions.  If they think that rape victims should be allowed to have abortions, ask them why that baby is less important than all the other babies.  (If they don’t want rape exceptions, leave now.  They are unreachable.)  Instead of accusations, ask questions.  Ask them politely, “is it possible you feel this way because you think sex is wrong and should be punished?” 

It’s also important to just bring up one point at a time instead of a barrage of arguments.  Don’t expect a change right away, if at all.  It will take time to sink in, but they are much more likely to consider what you said at a later time if you are polite about it and don’t accuse them of being a horrible person.

Comment #63: bananacat  on  06/03  at  03:25 PM

the anti-choicers’ whole argument that abortion doctors are manipulating stupid women into ending their pregnancies so the doctors can reap the financial benefits and pay for all those diamond-encrusted ferraris with dead babies, or whatever it is they’re on about.

I’ve never given birth or had an abortion so I don’t know how much either costs, but wouldn’t doctors make more if they waited a few months and then helped the woman give birth?  If it’s risky, they could get money the whole time with monitoring and tests, and lots of intensive care for a newborn that probably won’t survive anyway.

Comment #64: bananacat  on  06/03  at  03:30 PM

This is freaking brilliant. At the clinic where I volunteer, the other patient escorts and I have been amusing ourselves by writing entries into a satirical “Anti-Choice Playbook”:

“Pretend you’re not an asshole!”
“Bring up something totally unrelated, like sick puppy dogs, so she feels like an evil person.”
“Offer to adopt her baby, because it’s not creepy **at all** to shout that at a total stranger.”
“If she’s starting to walk away, call her a whore and throw things.”
“Oh wait, we said pretend you’re *not* an asshole.”

I think we could probably add whole passages from the real playbook and nobody would notice.

Comment #65: Well, what?  on  06/03  at  03:35 PM

The rep replied that actually, those Psalms are very metaphorical and not to be taken literally in her tradition.  That shut the questioner up real quick.

Heh. At least they shut up - in many traditions these days that’ll get you a “Straight to Hell, do not pass Go” diatribe.

(If they don’t want rape exceptions, leave now.  They are unreachable.)

Funny enough, I rarely see anyone who DOES want rape exceptions. Except for that weird politician who defined ‘rape’ as a virgin Christian girl who was super-religious and looking forward to her wedding. And that isn’t really an exception, because NO ONE will fit that criteria, because these people can’t be pleased. Listened to Britney Spears once on the radio? Had it coming, then.

Awesome point on the profit angle, catgirl. I’m pretty sure abortions cost hundreds and births cost thousands. But, seriously, I haven’t heard the “they’re doing it for profit!! EVIL!” argument in years, and even then only sparsely. Given how closely the Religious Right has married itself to the Perfection of Capitalism, “profit” is considered a virute, not an evil. No, everything I hear for the last decade or so is just the “babies dying” stuff.

Comment #66: Essie Elephant  on  06/03  at  03:39 PM

(I rarely see anyone who DOES want rape exceptions.)

Clarification: That was in regard to anti-choicers. Everyone else I know who is in the “squishy middle” no longer calls themselves “pro-life” because that name is now synonmous with “insane”. Which is, in itself, a nice victory. Way to push a brand-name, guys.

Comment #67: Essie Elephant  on  06/03  at  03:41 PM

I just had a pro-life friend who was stunned to realize that Operation Rescue doesn’t talk about the pregnant woman when calling abortion murder. And, of course, there’s the famous “how much jail time should a woman face for having an abortion?”

It makes me think that this could be a good response… a series of ads, essays, etc., entitled “they call me a murderer”.

Don’t let them get away with “abortion is murder” without throwing the obvious back in their face. Force them to own the word “murder”, or stop using it.

Turn “abortion is murder” into an accusation against the women who seek abortions.

Obviously, calling abortion murder still lets them squirm away with “we didn’t say to damage clinics or kill doctors, we just said it was murder!”

But will it let them squirm away from the faces however-many women rejecting the title of “murderer”?

(Herm. I guess this is a bit of a non sequitur. But it ties into the whole “we pretend to be concerned with the poor pregnant woman while calling the action she proposes ‘murder of the most innocent and vulnerable among us’”. )

Comment #68: LongHairedWeirdo  on  06/03  at  03:43 PM

It makes me think that this could be a good response… a series of ads, essays, etc., entitled “they call me a murderer”.

unfortunately, you run into the problem here that it’s the evil men doctors who are the murderers, not the potential mothers.  Because women aren’t intelligent enough to decide for themselves.

Comment #69: Siobhan  on  06/03  at  03:52 PM

The pdf for the anti-choice handbook is rather large. It was bugging me, so I made a compressed (40x smaller!) version of similar visual quality: http://ifile.it/21p6tul

Comment #70: IvanM  on  06/03  at  04:07 PM

I rarely see anyone who DOES want rape exceptions.

That’s odd.  I’ve mostly only known people who at least pretend to want rape exceptions.  I thought it was only the Pope who wanted rape victims to be forced to bear children.

Comment #71: bananacat  on  06/03  at  04:16 PM

Wow. Thank you, Amanda, for the link on the Carhart clinic. I hadn’t been able to find anything when I googled and I was secretly hoping someone here would know the story. I suspected that the terrible appearance was related to anti-choice tactics but wouldn’t have guessed the extent to which Dr. Carhart was financially and legally harassed (as well as dealing with violent and threatening behavior).  I love how the anti-choicers force these clinics to operate in the scuzziest locations and then squeal about how evil the doctor is for not providing a better facility for his patients. 

They also have created the conditions that deter doctors from doing the kind of work Dr. Tiller did—and then they crow that the shortage of doctors proves that only a psychopath would be willing to perform these abortions.  The dishonesty is staggering.

Comment #72: Laurie  on  06/03  at  04:18 PM

I thought it was only the Pope who wanted rape victims to be forced to bear children.

Nope.  A lot of the forced-birth people will try to argue that the <strike>child</strike> fetus is innocent and should not be punished for the sins of his* father.  Sluts who let themselves get raped, by strangers or by men in their families, are not innocent and should be punished lots.  Being pregnant, giving birth, and wrecking your life by being a single mother, or being pregnant, giving birth, and slowly driving yourself mad by giving the child to a Nice Affluent White Family who want a Healthy White Baby to raise are excellent punishments.

* It was creepy as fuck reading the handbook for many reasons; one of them was that the fetus is always referred to as ‘him.’  It would make sense that they don’t care quite as much about fetuses that might grow up to be women.

Comment #73: kaninchen  on  06/03  at  04:24 PM

Catgirl,

In my experience, it’s because they’ve taken the “innocent baby dies” meme to heart and, well, as you pointed out - rape exceptions don’t fit that. To them, the death of the innocent baby is worse than continued traumatization of the woman. Then the baby is supposed to go up for adoption.

As for why they aren’t “pro-life” in the sense that they are pro-taxes for welfare, education, etc., in my experience, most Conservatives (capital C ones) are more selfish and childish than the average two-year-old. They don’t see “babies need taking care of if they get born”, they just see you are taking away their toy and UNFAIR! WAH!

I’m just saying. And, yeah, I’ve met people who really are “pro-baby”, and not “anti-woman” who are just terrified that babies are dying. They’re against sex ed because if girls know how to have sex, they will do it and get pregnant and ruin their life or kill the baby. They aren’t idiots, although you’d think they are - they’re just brainwashed by the community.

Says the girl who grew up listening to songs about Jesus holding the poor little aborted babies in heaven. Ugh. I didn’t seriously examine pro-life policies until I became fertile. Which is, in its own way, a signal of Conservative selfishness.

Comment #74: Essie Elephant  on  06/03  at  04:31 PM

Catgirl, thanks for the debate/discussion advice.  I’m also pretty bad at debating.  For one thing, the majority of people in my life are feminist/pro-feminist so I rarely encounter someone who doesn’t have the same beliefs as me.  When I do meet people who disagree, they tend to be just as vehement for their opinions that I tend to rudely ignore them since they are bad people who aren’t worth talking to.  And as a result, the very few times I meet a polite, moderate person in a political discussion, I clam up.  At least, I thought I did.  I suppose being smarter than most people are on this topic and STAYING CALM* no matter what is probably the most important thing you can possibly do.  Hell, staying calm is probably more important than knowing what you’re talking about.

*In the case of my family, staying calm means staying completely neutral.  I can’t laugh or exclaim or talk with my hands because that’s me getting “excited,” ergo not worth listening to.  On the flip side, most of my family is the in the “bad people, not worth talking to” category so the feeling is mutual.

Comment #75: Rachel,II  on  06/03  at  04:32 PM

Wow, people really think that teenagers need instructions on sex?  They’ve been doing a great job of figuring it out for themselves for thousands of years.  If someone actually uses that argument, you should ask if they needed someone to teach them.  If they did, then that’s sort of sad.

Comment #76: bananacat  on  06/03  at  04:34 PM

you know what else teenagers are great at? Coming up with complete bullshit rationalizations for how you can avoid getting pregnant. Like douching with mountain dew, or having sex on a hot tub, or virgin freebies.

Dan Savage recently related how someone wrote him looking for backup on the truth that a woman can’t get pregnant if the man stop’s thrusting after he ejaculates. Because the thrusting was what “knocked the eggs off” so that the sperm could get to them. He wasn’t asking “is this true,” he was saying “Hey, we both know this is true, but my crrraaaazzzzyyy girlfriend thinks I’m wrong, so can you tell her we don’t need to use condoms so long as I call it quits the second after I cum?”

Comment #77: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/03  at  04:58 PM

Wow, people really think that teenagers need instructions on sex?  They’ve been doing a great job of figuring it out for themselves for thousands of years.  If someone actually uses that argument, you should ask if they needed someone to teach them.  If they did, then that’s sort of sad.

Teenagers don’t need instructions on the basic fit Tab B into Slot A Go! fucking.  We all need instruction on how to make said fucking into mutually pleasurable as-safe-as-can-be-reasonably-expected sex among enthusiastically participating equals.  The forced-birth people don’t want the latter; it does things to their worldview they don’t much care for.

Comment #78: kaninchen  on  06/03  at  05:01 PM

It’s not an accident that picketers prefer to be in places where they can eyeball young, fertile women they either know or suspect are sexually active.

You see?  This is what happens when you only read Playboy for the articles!

Comment #79: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/03  at  05:26 PM

On Countdown last night Keith was interviewing Susan Hill about her long friendship and professional relationship with Dr. Tiller. (video here - http://snfd.tv/1RCy)
She was relating a few stories about the women he had helped and she was saying that a women that she knew that went to Dr. Tiller was carrying a DEAD FETUS that her local doctors would not remove.

It’s DEAD. ALREADY DEAD and yet they would not remove it. Thinking about what happened to that unknown woman and the degree of neglect about what SHE wanted (to not have to give birth to a DEAD FETUS)just sends me into the anger zone. That’s really at the core of this whole thing - as if we here didn’t know… controlling those idiot women because they have no idea how to even work their own bodies. I have been tearing up on and off - I’m committed to fight. These bastards can’t fucking tell me what to do.

Comment #80: Danica Lefse Queen  on  06/03  at  05:44 PM

Wow, people really think that teenagers need instructions on sex?

Eh, I know it seems crazy, but the “no sex ed” does work on a very, very few kids. I managed to make it to 17 without knowing ANYTHING about sex, thanks to a lack of public school sex ed (either they didn’t offer it, or my parents opted me out somehow), and I do mean I knew NOTHING. My first introduction to sex was being raped by my boyfriend, but I do grant that in the absense of that, I would have figured it out eventually.

I also grant that I was an extreme minority, even within the confines of our super religious community. Later conversations revealed that pretty much everyone else my age knew what was what, so chalk me up to being a 0.1% sample, if that. Given that, I was something of a Christian success story until that dratted boyfriend raped me and I got HPV. (The fun of having a *female* nurse lecture me on being a slut when I was initially diagnosed was oh-so-wonderful.) Of course, given that I now have sex without guilt and am a Wiccan, I don’t think I’ll be invited speak at any True Love Waits seminars any time soon. Oh well.

In the interest of fairness, I would like to point out that knowing zero about sex meant that I still had a leg up on the guy in MP’s example? Seriously? That is freaking HILARIOUS. And, once again, I’ve realized I’m completely rambling, lol.

Comment #81: Essie Elephant  on  06/03  at  05:50 PM

You are a braver woman than I, Amanda.

Off topic, but: Why are 90 percent of the RH Reality Check commenters anti-choice?!

Comment #82: SarahMC  on  06/03  at  06:04 PM

But is there anything in there about how to combat the pro-choice Rick Rollers who crash their protest?

That question might be valid if Rick Rollers for Choice existed, which it should.

Comment #83: Emily  on  06/03  at  06:06 PM

Starting with the “What if the Mother’s Life is in Danger” section, I find it telling that in regard to the “test” of whether or not the anti-choice activist is a compassionate person, the goal is to pass the test and not be one. They also make the inaccurate assumption that their ONE example of a situation where the woman is not scrapped for the sake of a fetus (because cause it was going to die anyway) will cause the listener to think they have compassion for women. I am not sure many people would buy into their bullshit on this one. The consistent reference to the fetus as a male also bugged the ever loving crap out of me. The obvious inference (for me) is that male children are prized so highly (as opposed to female) that people will be more inclined to care, feel more outrage if they are picturing a baby boy.

This leads me to “Sound Bites for Showing Concern”. Wow, feel the love.

Having done extensive clinic defense and experienced first hand the kind of harassment the anti-choice activists can throw at volunteers and clients and having read a fair amount of the pamphlets they hand out (or shove into your pockets or throw at you) I did not need convincing that these people are deceptive and dangerous but that handbook sent chills down my spine.

Comment #84: HooksInMyHead  on  06/03  at  06:15 PM

The biggest rhetorical victory the anti-choicers have won, and it’s a significant and often overlooked one, is getting everyone to call the thing created when sperm meets egg a “fetus” from the get-go, when the relevant word with regard to abortion is usually “embryo” (with regard to non-implantation, “zygote” or “blastocyst”).  That’s a win for them because it plays into the baby-like image that “fetus” evokes. 

But it’s also a win for them because it obfuscates the fact that these people think that zygotes and embryos are children.  Which obfuscates the fact that you cannot change the mind of someone crazy enough to think that an undifferentiated bunch of cells is a “child”, imbued by sperm power with more importance than anything that could happen to a woman, ever (short of death, they’ll concede, barely).

Comment #85: L33tminion  on  06/03  at  06:30 PM

http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2009-06-01-army-recruiter-killed_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Shoot two random soldiers, kill one, for being vaguely angry at the military? Charged as and described as a terrorist. The terrorist conviction is described as being due to firing shots near other people.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-06-02-Tiller-slaying_N.htm

Shoot a physician who performs abortions because you really want to kill him? In a church with lots of other people? Not a terrorist.

Not that I’m blind to the racist implications here, but really, this whole “what? Would you call all muslims terrorists!?? Neener neener, we’re going to get YOU to stereotype!!” stupidness needs to end. The left is one saying judge all terrorists by their actions like violence and intimidation, which they’ve advocated for years for Tiller.

Comment #86: Tenya  on  06/03  at  06:32 PM

Essie, the passage you’re thinking of from Jeremiah is “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee.” Taken in context, of course, it’s part of a long explanation of why Jeremiah is special and different from all those other people whom God didn’t know before forming them in the belly, but you can’t expect intellectual honesty from these people.

Comment #87: Rebecca  on  06/03  at  06:49 PM

Rebecca, thank you. I was certain Jeremiah tied into it, but I was too lazy to Google and figure out that I’d meshed Jeremiah with Psalms, apparently.

And thank you, also, for pointing out the greatest tool in the Fundie arsenal - quoting things totally out of context. Although, I guess they could say that god does that for everyone now, or at least for Americans…

Comment #88: Essie Elephant  on  06/03  at  06:54 PM

Charged as and described as a terrorist. The terrorist conviction is described as being due to firing shots near other people.

The reason is because he’s being charged in Arkansas, which has its own statutes defining “terrorist acts” as separate criminal infractions than the murder itself.  Examples of “terrorist acts” in Arkansas include, but are not limited to drawing an unloaded firearm or showing others nearby that the subject is in possession of said firearm (brandishing), firing a blank or live round into/at/toward an inanimate object (reckless discharge of a firearm), and firing live rounds within a proximity of individuals who were not being fired upon (reckless endangerment). 

It would appear that Kansas does not have separate special categories of criminal infractions intended to enhance conviction rates for criminal prosecutors and district attorneys and to allow law enforcement to provide sufficient evidence to convict detainees of lesser violations than the ones they were originally put into detention for.

In short, “terrorist acts” has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism itself.  It’s just a way for cops and lawyers to get convictions on lesser charges when they know they’ll never get a jury to convict on a more serious charge, either because of lack of evidence, improper searches and seizures, or mitigating circumstances (like temporary insanity, self defense, or defense of another).

Comment #89: Mezosub  on  06/03  at  08:03 PM

Rebecca & Essie,

Personally, I always thought the “before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee” verse meant that the soul was re-incarnated and waiting for a new body. Needless to say, this was part of the reason my strict Baptist church removed me for being a “heretic”. wink

Every Friday morning, I pass a women’s clinic with a small group of protesters outside the front gate (I assume Friday is the only day they perform abortions). I have wanted to stop & confront them on a number of occasions, but did not want to be late for work. If they are there this Friday, I don’t think I will give a rat’s ass about being late for work.

Comment #90: shartheheretic  on  06/03  at  10:29 PM

m_leblanc you have to be lying. You can’t be pro-choice and a disability advocate. Because REAL disability advocates want every fetus born no matter what, because otherwise we’re discriminating against them. How do WE know if they are suffering or not? Besides, anyone who would like to see fewer disabled people in the world (as in, we would like to see disabilities PREVENTED when possible, such as folic acid/spina bifida) is being able-ist and hates disabled people. We should be accepting their differences not trying to cure them! But at the same time we should be funneling medical resources into hopeless vegetative cases because otherwise its euthanasia against the person’s will. And any person who has a child with Down syndrome should be on their knees thanking god for what a beautiful gift it is.

Erm… sorry. RHRC is getting to me. Carry on.

Comment #91: TheRealistMom  on  06/03  at  11:10 PM

Clio, I didn’t mean all that stuff I said to be aimed at you personally.  But you should bring up all those points next time you talk to your liberal atheist friend.

Oh, I figured you didn’t, I just wanted to clarify since I was commenting pre-coffee this morning, and… god knows what I say before I’m properly caffeinated. The guy (I’m assuming it’s a guy, though I don’t really know) I was quoting was an anonymous commenter on Amanda’s other post on RH Reality Check, though, not a friend of mine.

Comment #92: Clio  on  06/03  at  11:49 PM

unfortunately, you run into the problem here that it’s the evil men doctors who are the murderers, not the potential mothers.  Because women aren’t intelligent enough to decide for themselves.

Siobhan, that’s what I mean… stop letting them blame the doctors alone. If it’s a murder, the woman asked for it, and bears responsibility. Make them try to explain the inexplicable.

I’m not saying play the victim; I’m saying take their attack and throw it back in their faces, but make sure that it’s clear that, if they call abortion murderer, they are calling every woman who has one a murderer. And make them talk about the very issue they least want to discuss.

Comment #93: LongHairedWeirdo  on  06/04  at  12:55 AM

I’m all about freedom of choice, but I do think if you’re pregnant, you’ve got better options than abortion, no matter how you get pregnant.

Whether or not you believe in God, it all comes down to whether or not you’re willing to put your own life ahead of that of an unborn child.

There are viable options to abortion, and one of them is adoption. Inter-racial adoptions are becoming more common, it’s not always about white people wanting white babies. Check your color card at the door and enter into a world where the color lines disappear.

http://www.bethany.org/

Comment #94: Rigel77  on  06/04  at  05:55 PM

I’m all about freedom of choice, but I do think if you’re pregnant, you’ve got better options than abortion, no matter how you get pregnant.

Well, good for you.  If you find yourself pregnant, you certainly have the choice not to have an abortion.

Whether or not you believe in God, it all comes down to whether or not you’re willing to put your own life ahead of that of an unborn child.

Such a nice simple little world you live in.  A wonderful place where pregnancy is a nine-month, fun-fest, 100% safe for the expectant mother, and completely lacking in complications.  A happy little utopia with universal health care, loads of state-mandated maternity leave and free childcare.

Those of us in Reality-Land, however, know that the choice to continue or end a pregnancy, is so much more complicated than your simplistic, childish little world.  Especially since right-wing, fetish-fetishists like yourself are usually the loudest opponents of any kind of taxpayer based aid to families and children.

There are viable options to abortion, and one of them is adoption. Inter-racial adoptions are becoming more common, it’s not always about white people wanting white babies. Check your color card at the door and enter into a world where the color lines disappear.

Interestingly, it’s often us evil, abortion-loving liberals who are most likely to welcome a non-white child into our family.  Hence, all the hand wringing on the Right about the lack of babies—white babies.

Women don’t have abortions because they think, “OMG, my baby will be black and nobody wants to have a black baby.”  They have an abortion because they do not have the resources—financial, emotional, etc.—to carry a pregnancy to term.

If pregnancy were super-duper easy, if it had no impact on the woman’s life, then, sure, adoption would be the obvious option.  But it’s not.

Comment #95: adobedragon  on  06/04  at  07:43 PM

Oh, and another thing about that liar’s manual: it’s also a good example of the “baffle them with bullshit” strategy that worked so well for the Lochner troll. After lying completely about how easy it is to deal with pre-eclampsia and leaving out other dangers to the pregnant woman such as stroke and murder, the writer goes on with a section on placenta previa, which is a) never ever something you would consider terminating a wanted pregnancy for, and b) an absolute, utter and complete contraindication for D&anything;, as in “why the @$%@% do you think previa patients are delivered by C-section, you moron.”

Then there’s another section on placental abruption, which it’s apparently OK to treat women for because it puts an embryo or fetus’s life in danger too, but once again, not something you would terminate for because, uh, the termination has been done for you.

But when someone who hasn’t read up on the details of pregnancy and childbirth complications hears the anti-choicer going on about all the conditions (which happen to be utterly irrelevant to abortion) that they think it would be OK to treat women for, it’s that much easier for them to mistakenly think they’re talking to someone sane and intelligent.

Comment #96: paul  on  06/04  at  10:30 PM
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