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Next entry: The Grand Choad State Previous entry: Where does courage come from?

K-Lo will not rest until the scourge of feminine joy is wiped out completely

As many of you know, the birth control pill turned 50 this year, which means that we’re all in for a lot of editorials chewing that favorite conservative theme, which I’d describe as, “Women only think they like sex.”  Via Roy, I have to say that this screed from Kathryn Jean Lopez is in the running for my favorite.  Lopez, who I have to point out for reasons that will soon become clear is (as far as I know) childless and unmarried, is the first to line up to explain to all the stupid feminists why we’re so stupid thinking we actually enjoy contraception, sex, and having choices. 

In an otherwise largely celebratory forum on the pill at CNN’s website, Republican strategist and book publisher Mary Matalin cleverly and jarringly wrote: “Packages of portable liberation ushered in a generation of women determined to break free from their inferior patriarchal oppressors. And how did they manifest their superiority? Their freedom? Thanks to The Pill, by casual, drive-by sex. Whoa. That really showed those stupid boys.”

They can keep telling us that feminism is about hating men, and therefore we’re breaking our own rules by having good relationships with them and (if we’re straight) enjoying sex with them, but it’s not sticking.  Perhaps they’re wrong about what feminism is?  I don’t know; I’m just an actual feminist.  So when I say that feminism is about women’s equality and creating a non-patriarchal world where men and women are freed get along as equals, I don’t know what I’m talking about.  The only people who get to define feminism are people who oppose it.

After this, the bullshit gets so thick that I can’t even make fun of entire paragraphs, or even entire sentences.

The feminist movement has a lot to answer for when it comes to the open and enthusiastic embrace it gave the contraceptive mentality, which interferes with a woman’s relationship with her own body,

You can only have a relationship with your own body if you’re constantly pregnant, according to K-Lo, who has never been pregnant.  Perhaps it doesn’t count if your relationship with your body is enhanced by repeatedly denying your body those unnatural sexual cravings?  Oh yes, they’re unnatural.  You’re stupid, pliable women, and the only reason you think you like sex is you say that stupid HBO sitcom where the women wear expensive shoes and have female friends they don’t hate.

never mind her relationships with men.

I asked my boyfriend if he’d like me better if I was always pregnant and miserable about it, and/or unwilling to be sexually active ever again.  He said no. But that’s only where the confusion began.  I thought feminists were supposed to want to ruin our relationships with men, and K-Lo says that being on the pill ruins them, so we should go off, right?  But then she said that being on the pill made the guys like us, and so we’re suckers, and….

Fuck, I just don’t understand.  Both being on and off the pill makes me bad at my K-Lo assigned man-hating duties.  What’s a girl to do?  (Answer: quit fucking and have more babies.  Don’t think about it.  God didn’t give you a uterus because he wanted you to use your brain.) 

So, we can blame the pill for making relations too good between men and women, and also ruining relations between men and women, whichever potshot seems more convenient.  But since “ruined” is the most recent charge, let’s deal with that, especially since Maggie Gallagher came in and explained that the ruination is due to the dreaded separating of sex and reproduction.  Perhaps there is some statistical evidence indicating who has better relationships with their menfolk: the bad women who separate sex and reproduction in order to marry and have children after they get educated and install themselves in careers, or women who do it the right way by getting pregnant at a young age?  (We’re leaving the relatively rare women who presumably live like K-Lo and hang onto that virginity into their 30s.)  I link it alot, but it’s really the book to read for this kind of information: Red Families v. Blue Families.  The enemies invoked by Gallagher and K-Lo—-those liberal feminist yuppies with the college degrees and contraception use—-are more likely to get married and stay married that other groups of women.  Good women who connect sex and reproduction the old-fashioned way through youthful marriage and baby-making, especially through shotgun marriages, have higher divorce rates.  Also, it was found that the later you marry, the happier you are in marriage.

There’s only one conclusion: High divorce rates and marital acrimony are the best sign that women’s relationships with men are right by conservative standards.  If you actually like your husband, you stupid feminist, you’re doing it wrong. Contraception interferes with the natural order, where you get ensconced in a committed relationship at a young age and watch things deteriorate rapidly until you can’t even speak to each other in civil tones.  That, or you stay a virgin.  Either way, if you find yourself overly happy or satisfied about your romantic life, you’re doing it wrong.

Of course, many of the women of the “sexual revolution” generation paid the price in their own lives — they found that their best fertility days were gone by the time they realized they wanted to be women, not women suppressing that which makes them most creative.

You know what I like?  Being scolded by a childless writer about how I need to put down my pen and start pushing out babies, which is the true creative outlet for women.  Part of me suspects that K-Lo is just trying to take out the competition in the realm of female writers—-until she’s taken us all out, she’ll never be considered good, much less the best.

The AFP dispatch from the pill PR agency betrayed its ignorant agenda by making stale jokes about “the rhythm method” — a term that has been, for decades, used by no one but critics of the Catholic Church.

What’s funny is how angry conservatives get when the rest of us won’t agree to be as stupid as they think we are.  You can call it whatever the fuck you like, K-Lo, but it’s still a birth control method based on the wildly unpopular notion that you shouldn’t be fucking if you don’t want to have babies.  You can’t convince us to be slatheringly grateful that we’re allowed a couple of weeks when the whole month is available with other contraception methods.

Janet E. Smith, editor of Why Humanae Vitae Was Right, among other books, and professor of life ethics at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, tells me, “I keep hoping common sense might have some force with the secular world.”

I don’t know.  I think the widespread acceptance of the fact that people like to fuck indicates the secular culture is doing A-OK in the common sense department. 

When the first Sex and the City movie came out a few years ago,

It’s the law that every screed about the pill has to mention this franchise, because remember, women didn’t think they liked sex before “Sex and the City”.  1998 was a rough year, because it was also the year of Bill Clinton’s impeachment.  Think of the society we would have if Bill Clinton hadn’t invented the blow job and Carrie Bradshaw hadn’t invented the female orgasm!

The reactions of the young audience members, in their Jimmy Choo knock-offs, suggested that a little talking-to from Janet and Raquel might do them a world of good.

What the hell were they doing that was so offensive in the middle of a comedic movie?  Eating popcorn?  Laughing?  Hanging out with their friends?  God, that must have been hellish for K-Lo, being in a roomful of women having fun.  They need to make it up to her, by giving birth about 10 times in a row with no painkillers or forswearing sex so they have more time to drop heavy objects on their toes.

But the truth is that motherhood is at the heart of what it means to be a woman,

So sayeth K-Lo in her 33rd year of childless Unwomanhood.

and, for decades now, the pill has been trying to deny that reality.

Apparently, she believes that one cannot take the pill and be a mother.  Perhaps she thinks it causes permanent sterility?  Even then, it doesn’t quite make sense, because you could still have children and then take the pill.  In fact, as Elaine Tyler May noted in her wonderful history of the pill, for the first decade of its existence, the pill was mostly used by married women, and knowing what we do of demographics then, most were already mothers. 

Mind you, you don’t have to have children to be in tune with that great gift

This is how she wriggles out of the fact that she, a childless woman, is advocating mandatory motherhood for everyone else.

but you do have to know it, acknowledge it, and not pop a pill the purpose of which is to treat fertility as if it were a disease

You know who’s in a position to lecture the rest of the world about what’s natural?  People who think it’s perfectly reasonable to suggest that the over 50% of adult women who don’t have husbands should suppress their sexual urges (as well as all married women who are done having children), and apparently think really hard about how sinful it is to have a little too much fun with your girlfriends at the movies. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:45 PM • (175) Comments

I’m sorry, twice-divorced Mary Matalin is going to tell the rest of us that we’re the ones who don’t understand how to make relationships work?

Also, Mary, I’ve noticed that you’re a professed Catholic and yet you only have 2 children.  So either you’re using that evil, evil contraception you don’t want anyone using, or you’ve locked your husband out of the bedroom.  Which is it?

Comment #1: Mnemosyne  on  05/25  at  08:00 PM

Wow. What a kill-joy. She’s really got that whole “No fun of any kind” catholic thing down to a science.

Comment #2: Mark  on  05/25  at  08:02 PM

Wow, what a fetid swamp of hypocricy.

Comment #3: MarissaAO  on  05/25  at  08:04 PM

according to K-Lo, who has never been pregnant.

We don’t know that.  All we know is that she hasn’t given birth.

Comment #4: BABH  on  05/25  at  08:14 PM

Re #4: I’m willing to take her word for it, if she asserts she’s a virgin.

Comment #5: brettvk  on  05/25  at  08:18 PM

I don’t know if she has asserted that.  She made space for one to be a hypocrite, as long as you took the proper anti-fun attitude.  But I’m 99% sure she’s unmarried and childless.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/25  at  08:21 PM

“Also, Mary, I’ve noticed that you’re a professed Catholic and yet you only have 2 children.  So either you’re using that evil, evil contraception you don’t want anyone using, or you’ve locked your husband out of the bedroom.  Which is it?”

Well, she is married to James Carville…

Comment #7: Captain Bathrobe  on  05/25  at  08:21 PM

Roman Catholic “natural law” is a source of unlimited sexual batshittery.

Comment #8: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/25  at  08:21 PM

Paradoxically, I think it’s a way that socially conservative women justify their own sex life outside of marriage:  it’s O.K. if I’m properly sanctimonious about other women’s behavior.  I think this is the same reason why some of the most bigoted homophobes I’ve met are young Christian women who are sexually active.  As long as I denounce teh ebil gheys, God will know which side I’m on, leaving me free to cavort freely with my boyfriend.  Kind of an outward projection of one’s own guilt.

Comment #9: Captain Bathrobe  on  05/25  at  08:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Mind you, you don’t have to have children to be in tune with that great gift, but you do have to know it, acknowledge it, and not pop a pill the purpose of which is to treat fertility as if it were a disease<blockquote>

So she’s using condoms?  The sponge?  IUD?

Sorry, having actually had sex and given birth to living small humans, I think I qualify as having more practical experience than K Lo with this “great gift”.

Hence my hormonal-laden IUD.  And my avowed decision to abort if it fails.  And my husband’s support in that decision.

Seriously…someone wrote about the common sense of Humanae Vitae?  Common sense said the Pill was fine; Humanae Vitae was a surprise minority decision by a man who is not supposed to have either sex or children.  Almost every Catholic ignores it for a reason—it violates common sense and that doctrine about conscience means that it’s not a sin, no matter how much the Pope stamps his Prada-covered foot.

And what is the deal about Sex and the City?  It’s a show written by a couple of gay guys, not a fact-filled doctrine.

Comment #10: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/25  at  08:42 PM

And what is the deal about Sex and the City?  It’s a show written by a couple of gay guys, not a fact-filled doctrine.

At least the gay guys writing Sex and the City are likely getting some and happy with their lives. The gay guys writing doctrine are celibate, miserable, and hatefully taking it out on everyone else.

Comment #11: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/25  at  08:46 PM

my main creative outlet is supposed to be spawning? That must be one hell of a creative enterprise then, if it’s supposed to be more creative than both my dayjob (CG Illustration) and my hobby (writing blogs, writing fiction).


Also, my boyfriend thinks the Mirena Coil is the best invention since sliced bread. clearly, I’m failing at feminism, too, since my boyfriend doesn’t hate me.

Comment #12: jadehawk  on  05/25  at  08:49 PM

Remember, feminists hate men because we think that they are our equals, not nasty, brutish, slavering beasts who despise us, have every god-given right to commit whatever violence they wish on our persons, and have been set over us like overseers watching a plantation of slaves.

If you like men, and you like sex, plainly you’re doing it wrong, because God intended men to be brutal and despicable toward women, and since women don’t actually like that behavior, women cannot possibly like men! 

We expect men to behave like human beings, therefore we hate men. It’s only the women who think that men are subhuman brutes who hate them and will only tolerate their company if they perform sex for the men, but who are also masochistically obsessed with getting the approval of those sub-human brutes that despise them, who can be considered to actually *like* men.

Seriously, it all starts to make sense if you look at it from the perspective of how women need to reconcile their role in a religiously enforced patriarchy. God intended you to be subservient to violent brutes who actually don’t care about you, they just want to have sex (which you hate, because you’re a good woman) with you. What sort of mental contortions must these poor women perform to accept and *embrace* that, and not wind up railing at God? They define “men” as “people who emotionally and sometimes physically mistreat women and who despise women”, and any male person who doesn’t behave that way is a despicable non-man. So women who say “I like sex with men,” and prove it by having sex with male persons, are either degraded creatures who actually *enjoy* being tormented and humiliated with sex for its own sake, not a way to win the approval of our brutal overlords, or they’re inferior creatures who are having sex with not-men because they can’t attract a *real* man (never mind that we wouldn’t want to.)

The fact that we consider egalitarian feminist men to be *men*, and in fact consider them to be damn good partners if we’re hetero, and we aren’t particularly hung up on being het anyway, and so we’re able to conceive of men as people we can love as equals and sex as something we can enjoy, just doesn’t compute for them.

Comment #13: Alara J Rogers  on  05/25  at  08:49 PM

I never knew k-lo was so separated from the normal romantic and reproductive lives of women.  It only makes sense.

Comment #14: saraeanderson  on  05/25  at  08:51 PM

Also, evidently you’re not a real woman and real mother if you adopt. It doesn’t count if you don’t pop the spawn out yourself, apparently. I have no other way to explain the “they found that their best fertility days were gone by the time they realized they wanted to be women” comment, since there’s no requirement for being fertile for adoption.

Comment #15: jadehawk  on  05/25  at  08:54 PM

<i.As many of you know, the birth control pill turned 50 this year, which means that we’re all in for a lot of editorials chewing that favorite conservative theme, which I’d describe as, “Women only think they like sex.”</i>

“They think there’s no use getting
into heavy petting.
It only leads to trouble, and…
seat wetting.”

Comment #16: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/25  at  09:00 PM

Janet E. Smith, editor of Why Humanae Vitae Was Right, among other books, and professor of life ethics at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, tells me, “I keep hoping common sense might have some force with the secular world.”

Common sense, from someone who believes that basing one’s personal medical choices on the dictates of an Invisible Bearded Sky Man™ in the year 2010 is the height of reason. Alrighty, then…

You won’t be surprised to learn that Dr. Smith is also unmarried and (bien sur) childless. But then, how else would she and K-Lo find the time to write all these articles and books urging every other woman to get married and start popping out babies as soon as possible?

You just know these bitter killjoys think of themselves as martyrs, toiling in the hells of academia and publishing in order to save every woman not as wise as them.

Comment #17: Gracchus.  on  05/25  at  09:09 PM

Oh, I get it - no pill and no men either!  Yes! We are just supposed to sit around and fingerbang each other until prince charming makes a selection!

Comment #18: Ms Kate  on  05/25  at  09:12 PM

We are just supposed to sit around and fingerbang each other until prince charming makes a selection!

Nah. First, you’re women touching each-other’s dirty, dirty bits—lesbianism! Second, even if lesbianism were ok, fingering may result in a female orgasm. Can’t have that, either.

No, you’ll just sit quietly until you’re called. And you’ll like it.

Comment #19: Gracchus.  on  05/25  at  09:16 PM

So when are K Lo and Smith going to dig a hole in their back yard to shit in, start carrying water from a hand-dug well or nearby pond, and cook with burning twigs?  Its only natural!

Comment #20: Ms Kate  on  05/25  at  09:23 PM

Another underlying assumption with the conservative bashing of birth control is that liberal, feminist women will end up alone and childless.  I don’t think K-Lo make that claim, but between contraception making women into either human matresses or man-hating spinters, I can’t really keep up with the conservative mentality.  I feel pretty safe in asserting that most women (and most men, although they are not allowed to admit it) want children.  Some of us don’t.  Why are these people so adament about denying women and their partners a tool that will allow them to be the best parents they can be?  Why force women to who would be awful mothers to have children?  Personally, I know that I am only a good cat mother…. and maybe an adeqate dog mother, but I haven’t made that leap yet.

Comment #21: kitten parade  on  05/25  at  09:23 PM

stale jokes about “the rhythm method” — a term that has been, for decades, used by no one but critics of the Catholic Church.

That’s because the term “NFP” means absolutely nothing to most non-Catholics, and a good number of Catholics, too—especially since the Church itself popularised the term in the mid-20th century. If the ads were calling it “Vatican Roulette,” there’d a point to their outrage. But the joke is about comparative reliability, not religion. What really rubs them the wrong way about these ads is that they’re promoting more effective birth control, which (ipso facto) turns young women into filthy sluts.

Comment #22: Gracchus.  on  05/25  at  09:41 PM

So, apparently women are supposed to use a turkey baster every time their cycle begins so that they can reproduce without slutty sex and still fulfill their “natural destiny”? I guess.


Sorry, can’t keep up. Frankly, it seems to me that they’ve stopped pretending anymore and have just resorted to openly calling for pain and female subjugation and suffering as a primary “virtue”.

I, for one, can not wait for the whole diseased edifice to come crashing down on their heads.

Comment #23: Cerberus  on  05/25  at  09:42 PM

So, on top of all of the hypocritical nonsense in her article, I kind of want to point something out:

but you do have to know it, acknowledge it, and not pop a pill the purpose of which is to treat fertility as if it were a disease

The pill actually treated the disease that I have/had that was preventing my fertility.  If I hadn’t had the pill when I was younger, my PCOS would have ravaged my ovaries.  I was actually told I’d never have children.  Additionally, left untreated, it can become (cause?  I’m not sure) ovarian cancer.  There are lots of conditions that prevent fertility that can be managed or treated with various forms of hormonal birth control.  There are also countless conditions that are simply a matter of timing that can cause pregnancy to be high risk.  High blood pressure?  Diabetes?  Obesity?  Wait a bit until you can bring those down to a safer level if possible, or perhaps just get the insurance that’ll help you with it and now suddenly a pregnancy that was likely to kill you and your kid is low or no risk.  Contraception is seriously the best thing to happen to women who want to procreate since the penis was invented. 

The point of the pill, and what makes me love it, is what it did for our ability to take control of our lives.  That’s the most important aspect, of course. 

But it does so much to help women who want to have kids I really don’t see how anyone can fall for the line that somehow the people who decry it give a shit about anything except making sure women are miserable—or possibly dead.

Comment #24: Ailuridae  on  05/25  at  10:10 PM

If motherhood is the pinnacle of womanhood, then the six billion people on this Earth prove that the pill has hardly had any effect on womanhood in general.  The sob stories from those who waited longer than they should have to try to conceive don’t sway me one bit away from the idea that women should be able to control their fertility and their lives.

Comment #25: 3letterjon  on  05/25  at  10:13 PM

If you think about it, the Pill is usually for women who will someday want kids because it isn’t a permanent measure!  Of course the woman-hating crowd is fully behind unnecessary restrictions on permanent sterilization as well ... particularly for women who never want kids!

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  05/25  at  10:34 PM

K-Lo sez:

“To groups that have for decades insisted that they represent so-called ‘women’s issues’ and women’s interests, the truth behind Raquel Welch’s comments must be a bitter pill.”

I just love the completely unsupported declaration of victory!  Oh yeah, I am sure Raquel’s comments have really made the scales fall from the eyes of reproductive rights activists. 

These people all have a weird burning fantasy of seeing uppity women repenting for the error of their ways.  That’s why there is such a market for these stories of women who are distraught because they now allegedly realize they should have had children when they were still fertile.  Social conservatives love seeing women in sackcloth and ashes for the crime of exercising choice.

Also, LOL at the scolding delivered to the Sex and the City audience members.  How DARE they laugh at a funny movie! In knock-off Jimmy Choos, no less!

Comment #27: Laurie  on  05/25  at  10:39 PM

....read read read….. WTH?  What a collection of non-sequiturs and bogus ‘logic’ that article is.

Comment #28: Eric_RoM  on  05/25  at  10:41 PM

I wonder if she’s one of those natural-cycle-denying addicts who guzzles coffee or tea as if being sleepy were a disease rather than the divinely ordained outcome of honest work…

Comment #29: paul  on  05/25  at  10:45 PM

I love that it is the laughing audience in the knock-offs that is part of the problem.  Nothing like a little class warfare being put into the conversation.  But only a little bit, because mentioning women on welfare is so gauche.

Comment #30: 3letterjon  on  05/25  at  10:46 PM

My father once said to me, “You were planned for—your brother and sister were the rhythm method.”

Uh…thanks, Dad?

It was my mother who was the Catholic in those pre-Pill days, although when my brother and sister were about 6 and 7, I remember finding condoms in the parental top bureau drawer.

So as per usual in those times, the burden of guilt was on my mother, back when American Catholics still followed that particular encyclical.

The Pill seemed to take care of that, neatly. I’ll bet dollars to donuts, birth control Pill use is the demarcation mark in American Catholics taking the birth control ban seriously.

And nothing hypocrites like Matalin or KLo bloviate about is gonna change that, especially during an economic depression. Matalin and Klo could afford a brood, and they’re not producing it.

Slut on, girls! You couldn’t afford the onslaught of mass baby-making, even if you wanted it.

Comment #31: judybrowni  on  05/25  at  10:46 PM

If the ads were calling it “Vatican Roulette,” there’d a point to their outrage.

That reminds me of an old joke. 

What do you call couples who use the rhythm method for birth control?

Parents.

Comment #32: prufrock  on  05/25  at  10:52 PM

Oft-cited, seldom in error:

Puritanism is the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. - H. L. Mencken

Comment #33: damnedyankee  on  05/25  at  11:04 PM

I think we’re all missing the bigger point here, which is that Lopez is only 34 but her moral scolding skills are easily at a 65 year old level. Seriously, I’ve read various articles by her (okay, snarky synopses), and never did I think for even a second that she might be only 5 years older than me. It’s like she’s just channeling impossibly old bat Phylis Schlafly.

Comment #34: Liz212  on  05/25  at  11:10 PM

Seriously, when did opposition to birth control suddenly become the mainstream conservative position? 

Silly me I thought contraception was something every modern, sane person appreciated.

Comment #35: charles w  on  05/25  at  11:15 PM

I never knew k-lo was so separated from the normal romantic and reproductive lives of women.

She also drinks Coors, so…

Comment #36: FashionablyEvil  on  05/25  at  11:18 PM

So, apparently women are supposed to use a turkey baster every time their cycle begins so that they can reproduce without slutty sex and still fulfill their “natural destiny”?

Only if they don’t get too… attached… to the turkey baster, if you see what I mean, and I think you do.

I have to wonder what K-Lo’s reaction is to the attitude of some women I could name about waxing enthusiastic on the detailed, um, ins-and-outs of electrical sexual devices.

Comment #37: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/25  at  11:34 PM

The only people who get to define feminism are people who oppose it.

Also liberalism, multiculturalism, environmentalism, non-homophobia ... pretty much anything that anyone to the left of Joe Lieberman believes in. (Of course, those same people get to define what they themselves believe in, because, you know, that’s only fair.)

Seriously, I once suggested to a wingnut co-worker of mine that he talk to some actual liberals and find out what they actually believe. He honestly didn’t know what I was talking about. Sean Hannity explained the liberal agenda to him, and that was all he needed to know.

Slightly OT, but this is something that’s really stuck in my craw lately.

Comment #38: RickMassimo  on  05/25  at  11:38 PM

When did opposition to birth control become the mainstream conservative position?

About the time they began getting their way more and more on abortion restrictions: they then had to double down on the crazy.

But actually this is cyclical: they’re back to pre-birth control arguments, when the overlords could say right out loud that sex was too good for us underlings.

“Don’t want all those kids you can’t afford? Cross your legs!

God gave us money, because only we deserve to have as much sex as we like—he’s punishing you with children.”

It must be frustating for the Ladies of the Mansion KLo and Matalin to have to hold back on the full retro argument.

Comment #39: judybrowni  on  05/25  at  11:43 PM

Seriously, when did opposition to birth control suddenly become the mainstream conservative position?

When the fundamentalists who wanted to take over the Republican Party realized their numbers were too small and they would need to recruit some new allies:  conservative Roman Catholics who traditionally voted Democrat.  The longstanding support of birth control by Protestants went right out the window to attract conservative Catholics to their side, exactly same way that the Baptists’ longstanding support of the separation of church and state went out the window as soon as it looked like there was a chance that they could run the state.

Comment #40: Mnemosyne  on  05/25  at  11:47 PM

The curious thing is how people at either end of the spectrum end up coming round and essentially repeating the other side’s argument. I don’t think it’s entirely a coincidence that ultra-conservatives say:

  sex = bad

and ultra-feminists say:

  sex = bad

I honestly think the same hangups, shame, and taboos apply on both sides, just expressed in different, but still unhealthy, methods.

I am a guy and I’m not suggesting that women should be nymphomaniacs or even like sex at all - they should feel whatever they feel. However clearly on either side of the spectrum I outline above there are some personal “issues” involved.

Anyway, it’s curious. Same thing goes with the Communists and the Fascists - they looked a lot alike in the end even though in theory they were diametrically opposed.

Comment #41: scathew  on  05/25  at  11:49 PM

ultra-conservatives say:
sex = bad

The “ultra-conservatives” you refer to are, respectively, one of the “representative Republican commentators” on CNN who used to work for the Bush/41 administration and a longtime staff writer and editor for The National Review, the premier conservative journal. They aren’t ultra-conservatives, they’re mainstream conservatives. Trying to draw an equivalence between them and some obscure leftist commentator most people haven’t heard of, much less ever appeared on TV, is a bit disingenuous.

Comment #42: Tyro  on  05/25  at  11:55 PM

I am always amazed that the anti-sex crowd can have such a narrow view of humanity.  As if we can all be categorized into one of two groups: people-who-have-kids or people-who-contracept/abort.  Pick one ladies, and there is no going back!  It is especially strange because the vast majority of people are both at different times in life. 

It’s like they are so wrong that you can’t even argue against them.  I just want to point out the window at the real world and shriek… something.  It is just so nonsensical I can’t even process it.

Comment #43: GumbyAnne  on  05/25  at  11:58 PM

@41: which ultra-feminists are saying that sex is bad?

Comment #44: Captain Bathrobe  on  05/25  at  11:59 PM

I don’t know of any “ultra-feminists” who think sex is bad.  Maybe he means women who won’t sleep with him personally?  Bet they’re sleeping with someone else.  Even the much-maligned and dearly departed Andrea Dworkin didn’t say sex was bad.  She said porn was bad.  Porn =/ sex.  She also said that in a patriarchy, sex is imagined as being no different than rape, and I think anyone who is honest with themselves—-or has noticed how some countries stone rape victims to death and others like ours accept that you get to rape if she’s wearing a short skirt—-would agree.  Or even more abstractly, that intercourse is imagined in our culture as a conquest of a woman’s body, instead of a merging or even an enveloping, which is why you find so many people finding reasons to claim rape was not the illegal kind of rape.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  12:07 AM

There’s at least one dead one that I can think of.  Also, some of Twisty’s minions have some interesting views about whether or not a heterosexual woman can call herself a feminist, I shit you not.

Comment #46: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  12:11 AM

Premarital sex has one purpose, and one purpose only: To trap horny young people into marriage.

Sadly we’ve been doing it wrong these past five years as there has been plenty of sex but no entrapping pregnancy.

Comment #47: Pope Thorn Iv  on  05/26  at  12:12 AM

Gumby, it’s also funny how hard they work to convince themselves both that controlling your own fertility with contraception is wrong and that it doesn’t work.  I’m amused at how many conservative bloggers love to speculate on how frequently I get abortions.  Answer: never, due to the effectiveness of the birth control pill.  But they think abortion is a reliable measure of bad womanhood, and since I’m a bad woman, I must have an abortion provider on speed dial. Whether they like it or not, the women they most hate—-privileged feminists who have reliable health care, professional careers, and college degrees—-are lucky enough to avoid abortion more than women who have haphazard access to health care.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  12:12 AM

having actually read some Dworkin—literary criticism people, Intercourse was primarily literary criticism—she didn’t think sex was bad.  She thought sex as imagined and practiced by members of the patriarchy was mostly indistinguishable from rape.  That is, there are sexual possibilities that are not rape, but if you look at what the patriarchy’s foot-soldiers do and say, it’s clear that said foot-soldiers are unable to distinguish between sex and rape.  Which is something we talk about here, too, actually—that some folks have a really hard time even imagining enthusiastic consent or sexual enjoyment by all participating parties. 

Now, name us an ultra-feminist who’s more ultra that Dworkin and we can talk about that next.

Comment #49: rowmyboat  on  05/26  at  12:12 AM

Amanda, were you around and aware when Dworkin started explaining how she married a guy but they didn’t have sex with an erect penis???? That’s pretty contorted at best.

Comment #50: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  12:13 AM

Who’s the dead one, Ms Kate?  And I’m not willing to include a few lesbian separatists—-who, as Tyro noted, have no power or influence—-as anti-sex.  Mostly the just seem anti-male, but you know, lesbians have sex.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  12:14 AM

Dworkin - and I do think that there is less nuance to what she asserted than is being read in here.  The whole bizarre statements about her husband, the whole “intercourse=rape” go way beyond anti-porn. And, yes, I’ve read her stuff and maybe I’m just not enlightened by the latest post-feminist interpretations of the words that are there and speak for themselves.

Comment #52: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  12:16 AM

Well, whatever her personal choices were—-and she was definitely a weird one—-like rowmyboat said, she has been accused of saying sex was bad when she was saying the way it’s contextualized in our society is bad.  It’s like pointing to a ball and having people think your hand is the ball.

And Dworkin’s dead.  All that’s left are a few people in blog comments, as opposed to a mainstream pundit like K-Lo who goes on TV and has a full time job as a commentator.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  12:18 AM

Lesbian separatists are anti-sex if you happen to be naturally heterosexual.  They don’t want me to enjoy my sexuality as it is, and that doesn’t seem that much different from people who think that gay people can be converted to enjoying heterosex.

Comment #54: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  12:19 AM

The whole “intercourse=rape” thing is better described as “how the patriarchy imagines intercourse is indistinguishable from rape, because they consider women’s consent less relevant than who has ownership rights over any particular vagina”.  Which really isn’t that controversial. She just used heavy language and wasn’t well-liked for being a loud-mouthed weirdo.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  12:19 AM

You are right about power and influence - why do these eedgits get so much column inches? Oh yeah, they perpetuate stereotypes!

Comment #56: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  12:20 AM

The Catholic desire to discern and follow only that which God wants us to do with our private parts is similar to Rand Paul’s desire to let business owners deny service to Negroes: Both are logical extensions of philosophies that make no goddamned sense whatever in the real world, with consequences that are unpleasant and quite unnecessary.

Comment #57: Hector B.  on  05/26  at  12:59 AM

The form of logic that something is natural and therefore right is an odd one.  Quite clearly, technology has intervened in every aspect of human life, so that to be human is to be non-natural, even, in some senses, anti-natural.  What is nature to a human?  We depend on certain facilities—sewerage systems, electronic systems, coordination systems that support economic and social infrastructures…. nothing here is “natural”.  If we were to give up these systems, in order to return to nature, would we thereby become very powerful indeed?  The current ideology seems to insist that this is precisely what would happen - but only if you are female.  Female humans alone have the magical essence that can make renunciation a means of hitting the nail on the head.  How did it come about that only women have this magical, mysterious essential power?  Why has the male been so neglected?  Perhaps he could also find his true meaning in life by giving things up.  Technology is surely limiting him, and making a domesticated puppy out of our beloved gesticulating ape.

Comment #58: scratchy888  on  05/26  at  12:59 AM

“Why Humanae Vitae Was Right”

Because it was written to create a target-rich environment for the writers?  The priesthood has proven pretty conclusively that it needs pre-Confirmed children for sexually satisfying dates - so more children means less chance of being shot down when trolling the playground.

Comment #59: phalamir  on  05/26  at  01:00 AM

Janet E. Smith, editor of Why Humanae Vitae Was Right, among other books, and professor of life ethics at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, tells me, “I keep hoping common sense might have some force with the secular world.”

You mean the common sense that would tell an institution not to cover up child molesters?

Also, lesbian separatists is a good name for a band.

Comment #60: bay of arizona  on  05/26  at  01:26 AM

So, yeah, my point was that scathew @41 was engaging in false equivalence—using straw-man (or woman!) “ultra feminists” to weigh in the balance against the scores of anti-sex conservatives out there.

False equivalence is false.

Comment #61: Captain Bathrobe  on  05/26  at  01:34 AM

No, seriously, what a bunch of conservatives told me some feminist said, plus what a bunch of transphobic misanthropes say on a transphobic misanthropic blog is totally the same as what the people who create legislation, multi-million or billion dollar corporations/institutions, and mainstream conservative news outlets say. 

Lesbian separatists are anti-sex if you happen to be naturally heterosexual.  They don’t want me to enjoy my sexuality as it is, and that doesn’t seem that much different from people who think that gay people can be converted to enjoying heterosex.

Really?  Really? 

That’s like saying the Loch Ness Monster doesn’t seem that much different than bears.  I guess both of them could eat you, but one either doesn’t exist or exists in such a small number that it will never, ever, ever, ever actually affect you in any quantifiable way.  And even that comparison only works if bears were actually successfully lobbying legislators to allow them to eat people.

Comment #62: Ailuridae  on  05/26  at  04:01 AM

But the truth is that motherhood is at the heart of what it means to be a woman,

So sayeth K-Lo in her 33rd year of childless Unwomanhood.

This is why I can’t bring myself to make fun of Lopez—she must be utterly miserable. It would be like beating someone up just before they go on suicide watch.

She thinks feminist standards are crap, but they’re the only standards by which someone like her would have any value. By nonfeminist standards, all she is, is a rather unattractive old maid. Period. (Imagine Ann Coulter’s life if no one had ever thought she was pretty.) If she’s really internalized those beliefs, her level of self-loathing must be eating her alive.


For her sake, it would be really nice if she could walk herself back from disowning—well, the normal pleasures of a woman her age. (Come out, maybe?) She’d be immeasurably happier.

(Oh, and forgive the nit-pickage, but she’s 34. So it’s her 35th year of childless etc.)

Comment #63: Molly, NYC  on  05/26  at  04:21 AM

Sigh.  Yet another asshole spouting the ‘woman = children, if you don’t breed you’re not really a WOMAN!’ bullshit.

This 28-year-old, hetero, virgin who doesn’t want kids is pretty sure she’s a woman, and maybe even a worthwhile person, thank you very much, Ms. Lopez.  But I always appreciate some fucker telling us stupid females that our worth as human beings amounts to what we do with our reproductive organs!

I almost feel sorry for her.  As Molly, NYC points out, the self-loathing fairly oozes out of her.  Too bad she’s trying to drag the rest of us into the depths with her.

Comment #64: A Canadian Girl  on  05/26  at  05:00 AM

Sounds like she needs a good fuck.

Comment #65: JennyLI  on  05/26  at  07:40 AM

You guys are missing the point of the link Klo makes between Raquel Welch and what you might call “feminist buyers remorse.”  The right went to town trying to find young, sexy, virgins to denounce sex and feminism—that’s the function of the beauty queens they are always touting. But they got burned when every fucking time the beauty queen, or the new youthful saint of anti-sex, turned out to have a sex tape on youtube, or an abortion, or some other little problem.  In desperation, Klo et al are turning to elderly harpies who have regrets about a lot of stuff—I should have bought that porsche, I should have married the other guy, I should have had more children, I should have been nicer to the ones I had…etc..etc…etc.. She’s figuring that Raquel Welch, at least, won’t embarrass her by suddenly getting pregnant out of wedlock. And all her other sins (Raquel’s I mean) can be dismissed as *pre conversion.*

I’d also like to point out that that priceless line “treat pregnancy as a disease” is pure projection. It is the religious right that insists on treating *sexuality itself* as both a disease and a sin.  To the rest of us its just part of our human gift of enjoyment.

aimai

Comment #66: aimai  on  05/26  at  08:03 AM

A good takedown of that twit.  However, this made me lol:

“They can keep telling us that feminism is about hating men, and therefore we’re breaking our own rules by having good relationships with them and (if we’re straight) enjoying sex with them, but it’s not sticking.  Perhaps they’re wrong about what feminism is?  I don’t know; I’m just an actual feminist.  So when I say that feminism is about women’s equality and creating a non-patriarchal world where men and women are freed get along as equals, I don’t know what I’m talking about.  The only people who get to define feminism are people who oppose it. “

I agree that you’re the better definer of feminism, but the parallels to your critiques of my beliefs are funny….

Comment #67: anoNY  on  05/26  at  08:40 AM

#66

<blockqutoe>I’d also like to point out that that priceless line “treat pregnancy as a disease” is pure projection. It is the religious right that insists on treating *sexuality itself* as both a disease and a sin.</blockquote>

Wow, great catch.

In desperation, Klo et al are turning to elderly harpies who have regrets about a lot of stuff—I should have bought that porsche, I should have married the other guy, I should have had more children, I should have been nicer to the ones I had…etc..etc…etc..

I sometimes wonder how deep is the connection between ‘conservatism’ and regret/nostalgia.

Comment #68: atheist  on  05/26  at  08:56 AM

@Amanda Marcotte

“I don’t know of any “ultra-feminists” who think sex is bad.  Maybe he means women who won’t sleep with him personally?  Bet they’re sleeping with someone else.”

First I’m married. Second you’re just being ass-hole. If you disagree with what I said, just stick to that ok. I can easily come back with low blows on your character.

BTW - in the 90’s I remember a whole slew of so-called feminists who essentially said sex was bad (incidentally “intercourse = rape” sounds pretty much like it). Unfortunately I don’t remember the names, so sue me.

Comment #69: scathew  on  05/26  at  08:59 AM

as well as all married women who are done having children

Er, or married women who don’t want to have any kids at all.  There’s a weird assumption floating around many places that one’s birth control needs change at marriage.  Mine are exactly the same (outside of discovering NuvaRing and the continuous use thereof, so I can add being crampfree and nauseafree to being childfree).

Comment #70: RP  on  05/26  at  09:22 AM

#69

“I don’t know of any “ultra-feminists” who think sex is bad.  Maybe he means women who won’t sleep with him personally?  Bet they’re sleeping with someone else.”

First I’m married. Second you’re just being ass-hole. If you disagree with what I said, just stick to that ok. I can easily come back with low blows on your character.

You’re right that her response is rude. But she’s riffing on the hilariously common connection between anger at women/“feminists”/bad girls and lack of play.

BTW - in the 90’s I remember a whole slew of so-called feminists who essentially said sex was bad (incidentally “intercourse = rape” sounds pretty much like it). Unfortunately I don’t remember the names, so sue me.

This is unconvincing.

Comment #71: atheist  on  05/26  at  09:23 AM

I agree that you’re the better definer of feminism, but the parallels to your critiques of my beliefs are funny….

Oooh, what a “gotcha”! You showed her.

The difference is, anoNY, that Amanda actually knows something about feminism, both theory and practise. You’ve demonstrated time and time again that you’re weak on libertarian theory, and also indulge in “free lunch” fantasies about libertarian practise (e.g. your desire to see an end to public accommodation laws).

Still against the enforcement of health codes in restaurants, anoNY? (hint: they’re public accommodations that serve food). You’re almost as entertaining as the orthodox Catholic (i.e. anti-sex) commenter who doesn’t understand how plants reproduce.

Comment #72: Gracchus.  on  05/26  at  09:29 AM

scathew, if you would read the thread you would see that statement discussed and explained fully. 

Please don’t come on a feminist site and mansplain radical feminism.  Thank you.

Comment #73: speedbudget  on  05/26  at  09:36 AM

@atheist

“This is unconvincing.”

Sorry (sincerely), I don’t have the names. I do have the memory though. What can I say? I suppose if I wanted to spend a couple hours I could probably dig it up, but honestly I was just giving my opinion, not a thesis. Next time I will have to come more prepared.

“But she’s riffing on the hilariously common connection between anger at women/“feminists”/bad girls and lack of play.”

Well, I see now that it was my bad because I thought, wrongly, that “Kathryn Lopez” was a so-called “feminist” and thus I thought I was agreeing with the OP that on the furthest end of feminism you start to hear echos of “sex = bad”. Clearly I skimmed too quickly (sorry).

In general I have zero issues with feminists, other than yes there does seem to be a penchant to equate “men = bad” (again my intuitive feeling - I don’t honestly have the time to support with factual examples)(I don’t honestly have the time to be writing this!).

On the other hand, as you point out, it does go the other way. Yes, men do rather nastily draw the inference that “feminists” are asexual (and this is their term, not mine) “bitches” - which I hope you’ll take my word that I think is wrong and I don’t support.

Yes, I suppose I do harbor some anger (maybe “frustration” is a better word, but I’ll go with “anger”) at women as a group - I’d be lying if I said I didn’t. Personally I think it goes both ways - I see a lot of anger in reverse. It’s a frustrating complicated dance that men and women play and it hard to figure out what the fair balance is. While some men undoubtedly find no such conflicts, I think a lot of us are struggling while truly trying to do the right thing. But it does feel like often we can do no right - that per the phrase the implication we feel is, “men are pigs”.

Anyway, what I do find is when I give my opinion in a respectful way in any conversation about women, I can pretty much guarantee a really nasty attack on my character in return. Which is why I’m pretty sure there’s a lot of latent anger in both directions.

I’ll see if my honesty here earns me similar responses here.

Comment #74: scathew  on  05/26  at  10:00 AM

K-Lo.  You no playa da game, you no maka da rules, k??

Comment #75: Woodrowfan  on  05/26  at  10:02 AM

You’re almost as entertaining as the orthodox Catholic (i.e. anti-sex) commenter who doesn’t understand how plants reproduce.

Damn, sounds like I missed a good troll.

Comment #76: Woodrowfan  on  05/26  at  10:09 AM

There are definitely women out there, especially in the outskirts of feminism, who are anti-sex.  Mostly, they’re the women who have been victims of the patriarchy from an early age and have responded by… giving up.  No, they don’t need a good fuck.  What they need is to come around to the idea that a good fuck might be good.  And no, no one can convince them of that other than themselves.  These women sometimes identify with feminism, sometimes they don’t, but they certainly aren’t out embracing the patriarchy and dating in search of a man to marry.  Or if they are their hearts aren’t in it.

Yes, they exist.  But no, they don’t tend to have newspaper columns and stipends from organizations and speaking tours and such.  Occasionally they show up at a Take Back the Night event, but it’s hardly the equivalent of Ms. Lopez’s public persona.  And Take Back the Night isn’t exactly a sausage party.

Scathew was clumsy, Amanda was rightly pissed, and Ms. Kate’s interpretation of Andrea Dworkin isn’t canon any more than Amanda’s is, but we can at least all agree on something, right?  Now let’s go out there and make sure the toilet paper is unrolled from the top! (And also make fun of unmarried women who aren’t getting any who publicly claim their own unwomanliness as a result of an airing of their silly political views.)

Comment #77: 3letterjon  on  05/26  at  10:18 AM

Something that few want to broach; K-Lo is not “conventionally attractive”.  Frankly, she just isn’t attractive.

I find this interesting because I wonder if she isn’t discovering that her prized virginity ain’t so prized among her target audience; right wing men.

Now, if Megan Kelly announced she was a virgin, they’d all get hard and start jumping up and down, maybe even break out into a chant of “drill her baby drill her” having momentarily forgotten which right wing magical event they were celebrating; trashing the earth or hot virgins.

Having now gone and taken a look at Ms. Lopez, I have to say, I feel sorry for her.  It can be a damned cold world, can’t it Kathryn?

Comment #78: JennyLI  on  05/26  at  10:19 AM

scathew:

You might want to read some books (start with Tavris’s The Mismeasure of Woman) and recalibrate your idea of what’s “a respectful way”. Believing that your opinion is important and valuable to all the women around you, just because it’s yours is per se not respectful. It’s entitlement.

Comment #79: paul  on  05/26  at  10:25 AM

I apologize for my clumsiness then BTW…

Comment #80: scathew  on  05/26  at  10:27 AM

She’s figuring that Raquel Welch, at least, won’t embarrass her by suddenly getting pregnant out of wedlock. And all her other sins (Raquel’s I mean) can be dismissed as *pre conversion.*

Excepting that many of Welch’s age cohorts are fucking everything that moves in their retirement communities and loving every damn minute of it.  Unfortunately, a lack of sex ed about STDs is now an official problem with the swinging elder set.

I don’t hear any handwringing about ED drugs and how their role in this geriatric fuckfest is horrible and terrible for everyone and everything.

Comment #81: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  10:30 AM

The real evil in this world comes from doctors, who separated all of us from our bodies with their cures for illnesses and surgery and eyeglasses and such.  It once was the case that, if you were nearsighted, you walked into trees all day and got in touch with your own body.  You were YOU.  Now people wear eyeglasses and they don’t really comprehend the nature of having eyes.  Same goes for cancer survivors.

Comment #82: DBK  on  05/26  at  10:31 AM

No, they don’t need a good fuck.  What they need is to come around to the idea that a good fuck might be good.

Moreover, they need to come around to the idea that people fuck and other people might actually like to fuck and that it really isn’t any of their fucking business.

Comment #83: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  10:33 AM

#74

Yes, I suppose I do harbor some anger (maybe “frustration” is a better word, but I’ll go with “anger”) at women as a group - I’d be lying if I said I didn’t. Personally I think it goes both ways - I see a lot of anger in reverse. It’s a frustrating complicated dance that men and women play and it hard to figure out what the fair balance is.

Scathew, don’t worry about it too much, you’re being honest. But should realize that if you come on a feminist blog and attack feminism, folks will start to defend feminism. And if you make generalizations about feminists, folks are going to attack the generalizations. This is just realism 101 dude.

Comment #84: atheist  on  05/26  at  10:39 AM

“You can call it whatever the fuck you like, K-Lo, but it’s still a birth control method based on the wildly unpopular notion that you shouldn’t be fucking if you don’t want to have babies.”

I’ve always thought this was one of the funnier hypocrisies and idiocies of the Catholic church.  Since the rhythm method is a form of birth control, and birth control is forbidden, then the rhythm method should be forbidden too.  It seems to me that the church only supports the rhythm method because it is ineffective.

Comment #85: DBK  on  05/26  at  10:40 AM

“Something that few want to broach; K-Lo is not “conventionally attractive”.  Frankly, she just isn’t attractive.”—AnglScarlett

If I were to comment on that one, it would be like naming myself King of Gor, Labiaplasty Surgeon, Twue Believer in Female Inferiority, and the Girls Gone Wild guy all in one.  But still: yeah, what she said.

Comment #86: 3letterjon  on  05/26  at  10:55 AM

#74

I’ll see if my honesty here earns me similar responses here.

Passive agression is bad.

Comment #87: atheist  on  05/26  at  10:55 AM

The church supports NFP, the modern rhythm method, because it explicitly makes clear that children are punishment for your filthy urges, and yes those urges are awful and disgusting. Don’t want more kids? Spend half the month frustrated!

It all ties in with how the Virgin Mary is supposed to be the ultimate woman all Catholic women look up to: both a virgin and a mother. Never despoiled with a filthy penis. Why are Catholic women supposed to die (on pain of excommunication) rather than have a life-saving abortion? If you’ve had sex, you are now worthless. Even if you were married.

Comment #88: Yawgmoth  on  05/26  at  11:01 AM

Something that few want to broach; K-Lo is not “conventionally attractive”.  Frankly, she just isn’t attractive.

What if this is to her advantage? What if K-Lo needs a powerful source of bitterness to detatch from its original context and turn into a free-floating hatred of modernity?

Comment #89: atheist  on  05/26  at  11:06 AM

Well atheist, I’d have to ask which came first?  Does she hate modernity because she’s unattractive and men generally have not pursued her, or does she just hate modernity and can use her lack of success with men as a “source of bitterness”?

You know, only last week Amanda pinpointed some troll’s complaints here.  I thought she really hit it dead on when she chuckled and told him, ohhh, I get it, you haven’t been successful with women and you long for the days when a woman was basically assigned to you and had to fuck you.

She was right.  Now, are we really going to say that this condition doesn’t exist in women?

Of course it does.

Comment #90: JennyLI  on  05/26  at  11:12 AM

3letterjon that’s pretty funny!

Comment #91: JennyLI  on  05/26  at  11:13 AM

“Yes, I suppose I do harbor some anger (maybe “frustration” is a better word, but I’ll go with “anger”) at women as a group - I’d be lying if I said I didn’t. Personally I think it goes both ways - I see a lot of anger in reverse. It’s a frustrating complicated dance that men and women play and it hard to figure out what the fair balance is. While some men undoubtedly find no such conflicts, I think a lot of us are struggling while truly trying to do the right thing. But it does feel like often we can do no right - that per the phrase the implication we feel is, “men are pigs”.”

I think the obvious answer is to say that having anythings about women or men as a group is a bad idea in general. Neither gender is really consistent enough outside the realm of stereotype. That’s not Feminism 101, (not that I’d be qualified to even TA that course) but it probably should be Liberalism 101, or Modern Pluralistic Society 101.

Comment #92: witless chum  on  05/26  at  11:22 AM

What’s interesting is the Church pushing for the rhythym method so much when they only decided it was ok in the 1950s.

Comment #93: JohnL  on  05/26  at  11:27 AM

@paul

You might want to read some books (start with Tavris’s The Mismeasure of Woman) and recalibrate your idea of what’s “a respectful way”. Believing that your opinion is important and valuable to all the women around you, just because it’s yours is per se not respectful. It’s entitlement.

Ok, so you’re saying because of one accidentally offensive comment based on a misunderstanding that clearly I need some adjustment via reading, therapy of sorts, to fix me of my clearly male-prejudiced psychology?

You don’t know me - you have no idea what demons I do or do not harbor or if I subscribe to the idea (as the review of “The Mismeasure of Woman”‘s review indicates), “Men are normal, women are deficient” (which I don’t). Yes, I think they are different (and pretty much any woman I talk to says the same)(or flip it if it sounds better - we men are “different”) and I don’t always get them, but clearly that goes around. Hell there are hundreds of books on the subject (including it sounds the one you suggested to some extent).

Really, I don’t believe my opinion is (or was) important to women. Hell I don’t think my opinion is important period, but regardless it was a comment as a “human” not as a “man to women”. Certainly my opinion here was no more or less important than any other blog that I post to and obviously I am no “God’s gift to women”.

But as noted, my comment was a mistake and yes, “clumsy”. I can see why people got pissed now. The conversation was about ass-hole anti-sex conservative commentators, not about anti-sex feminists. I thought it was the later and I honestly thought I was agreeing with the OP. I wasn’t shoving my comment out there to rub some pre-conceived idea that all feminists hate sex. I can see why it was taken that way though (to clear the air - I don’t think feminists hate sex, I don’t think feminists are bad in the slightest - has never ever come to mind, I do think there’s a lot of things to be feminist over, and honestly I have extremely few pre-conceived notions about what defines the average person who calls themselves a feminist. Yes, clearly on the fringes I have some stereotypes in my head - but tell me we don’t all hold such stereotypes about the fringes any group that might label themselves? Even there I was saying “some” - I don’t believe all “ultra-feminists” are anti-sex (Christ, now that I write it again, yes, I don’t even know what the hell an “ultra-feminist” is).

I still stand by my original point, even though it’s badly worded and off topic through my stupidity (and because of such, again I see why it was taken as a jab at feminists in general). I’ll put my point another way though - I’m a raving liberal but some of the really raving (ultra!?)-liberals are so sure of their ideas that they come round and sound like raving ultra-conservatives. They promote the same authoritarian ideals to “fix” the system. This is true of fringes of any group that has a self-identification. For instance, the most conservative Israelis start sounding like Hezbollah. I just think it’s a curious bit about human nature.

Finally, I probably could use a book that helps me understand and respect women better - I was brought up in a misogynistic society (though I also think the need for understanding goes in all directions). However, to imply that I need to read a book to post an honest (if clumsy) opinion in front of women actually treats women as unequals. It says at some level that they need special “care”. If women are truly equal, which I believe they are, then I should be able to express myself as a normal human being with all the flaws that that implies. Granted, I have to take whatever flack I earn (I would just prefer if it addressed my faulty arguments, rather than going after my faulty personality).

Comment #94: scathew  on  05/26  at  11:30 AM

@atheist

Passive agression is bad.

It wasn’t intended as “passive-aggressive” though I suppose I can see why it can be taken that way.

Anyway, it’s kind of funny, because that comment is “passive-aggressive” in itself if you ask me…

Comment #95: scathew  on  05/26  at  11:32 AM

@atheist

Scathew, don’t worry about it too much, you’re being honest. But should realize that if you come on a feminist blog and attack feminism, folks will start to defend feminism. And if you make generalizations about feminists, folks are going to attack the generalizations. This is just realism 101 dude.

True - at some level I knew what I was getting into, though I honestly didn’t mean to rile (again, I thought I was agreeing with the OP).

Comment #96: scathew  on  05/26  at  11:35 AM

I think the part about married women on the pill is interesting, I think that might be the main complaint in a way.  That a married woman may chose to only have the one child instead of the 8 or the 10 like in the olden days when you gave your doctor the chickens

Comment #97: ewellone  on  05/26  at  11:35 AM

I think K-Lo and the likes of her are waiting for Phyllis Schlafly to die so they can take her tarnished crown of Queen Hypocrite.

Comment #98: Princess Rot  on  05/26  at  11:39 AM

BTW - in the 90’s I remember a whole slew of so-called feminists who essentially said sex was bad (incidentally “intercourse = rape” sounds pretty much like it).

Sorry, but you’re the one being an asshole trotting out a vicious stereotype that’s used to fight women’s basic human rights.  But please, I’m all ears for a citation of these feminists you “remember”.  If you’re so sure of it, perhaps you can find them in no time!

Remember, when you go looking, porn =/ sex.

Comment #99: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  11:51 AM

Unfortunately I don’t remember the names, so sue me.

Nobody here is interested in suing you. However, they *are* interested in who these alleged man-haters might be.

I certainly haven’t heard of any. Though I remember from the ‘80s and ‘90s that battalions of man-hating lesbians were a favourite bogey-woman of some righty commentators. Those and the Feminazis.

Not to say that such people don’t exist at the far end of the bell curve. Just rather that they are likely to be marginal figures of little import. And until we know their identities we are wise to treat them as strawfeminists, and your claims as insubstantial.

Comment #100: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  05/26  at  11:55 AM

The problem is that even non-wingnutty women buy into “a woman’s highest calling and greatest fulfillment as a woman is in birthing a baby.” I think it’s a sort of coping mechanism for disappointment, women who got married/had kids too young trying to convince themselves and others that even though they’re broke, run-down, unappreciated, and can’t do things they used to like (reading, going to the movies, traveling), that they are in fact doing something so much more meaningful and important and special with their lives, and you can’t possibly understand it because you don’t have children so don’t question me.

I wonder if, with K-Lo, it’s not a coping mechanism that everything that’s wrong with her life is because she can’t have kids. Sort of like how everything that’s wrong with my life is because I don’t have a Microsoft Courier, and everything wrong with MoDo’s life is because she doesn’t have a husband. We can’t really test that hypothesis (and we never will), so who’s to say?

Comment #101: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/26  at  11:58 AM

There are definitely women out there, especially in the outskirts of feminism, who are anti-sex.  Mostly, they’re the women who have been victims of the patriarchy from an early age and have responded by… giving up.

Asexual =/ anti-sex.  No one is required to like sex with you or anyone else.  That’s their business, not yours.  I realize you’re agreeing with the idea that they’re not important thinkers, but it’s also extremely beyond fucked up to get aggressive with women who are asexual, whatever their reasons may be.  Who gives a shit if someone doesn’t like sex? 

The claim being made is not a “clumsy” one, but a straightforward charge that there is a line of feminist thought—-from the 90s, no less!—-that was straight up anti-sex. We’ve established that it’s not Dworkin, who criticized patriarchal views of sex but was not anti-sex and actually wrote erotic literature.  She was anti-porn, which is another debate entirely.

There were some goofy lesbian separatists in the 70s, but they weren’t so much “anti-sex” as adamant that heterosexual relationships were impossible.  They were anti-man, but that’s different than anti-sex.  They have no relevance to the current movement, and really had no real relevance except as a historical footnote.

But I think this charge that there’s a serious line of feminist thought that argues that women shouldn’t be sexual, with or without men, is a very, very serious charge.  And so I require citations.  Not just “memories”.  Not a few loudmouths with mental health issues in blog comments.  Citations of feminist thinkers who thought the biological act of sexual intercourse was in and of itself wrong, not just the cultural conceptions of it.

Comment #102: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  11:59 AM

I apologize for my clumsiness then BTW…

Sorry, you don’t get “clumsy”.  You made a serious charge, and you won’t back it up.  That’s rumor-mongering and damaging.

Comment #103: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  12:00 PM

Though I remember from the ‘80s and ‘90s that battalions of man-hating lesbians were a favourite bogey-woman of some righty commentators. Those and the Feminazis.

I should have said ‘monstrous regiments’, since this particular calumny has a pedigree that goes back to John Knox (another loopy fundamentalist) and earlier.

Comment #104: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  05/26  at  12:01 PM

<i.I still stand by my original point, even though it’s badly worded and off topic through my stupidity (and because of such, again I see why it was taken as a jab at feminists in general). I’ll put my point another way though - I’m a raving liberal but some of the really raving (ultra!?)-liberals are so sure of their ideas that they come round and sound like raving ultra-conservatives.</i>

Funny thing is I don’t disagree that there are raving liberals, but you were playing a specific game, and you need to back it up with citations.  Your accusations are pretty serious, especially in light of the fact that feminism has by and large been a battle in favor of sexual liberation.  So, back it up!  I’m happy to agree if you can find this “anti-sex” movement that I, who am a pretty avid reader of feminist history, happened to miss.

Comment #105: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  12:04 PM

I will say that Dworkin loses points for readability, which does explain 10-15% of the misunderstanding.  But 85-90% of it is just an attempt to slur feminists with the sexist stereotype that women are frigid. I did think, on that lie detector page, that this quote was interesting:

Equality in the realm of sex is an antisexual idea if sex requires domination in order to register as sensation.

That’s certainly anti-BDSM.  I think she’s way overly harsh on people who have absorbed what she’s talking about—-the eroticization of dominance—-and deal with it in a healthy way by keeping it in the bedroom.  I do think there’s a strong possibility in a post-patriarchal world that dominance role-playing will lose its erotic power for subsequent generations, but that’s like saying that in a world without leather, people wouldn’t fetishize that, either.  I’m not signing on to Dworkin’s vicious judgmentalism and demands that people just let go of what turns them on.  But to suggest that’s the same as being against sex itself is to miss the point.

Comment #106: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  12:11 PM

Ironically, I get the impression that if KLo’s politics changed to much more liberal ones, she would find somebody who found her intellectually stimulating to settle down and have a lifelong relationship and family with.  Unfortunately for her, the men in her political sphere are entitled to “fuckable” women like Palin or Coulter or to young pretties right out of college. 

If she were to become a slut liberal, at least in her own estimation, she might have a chance at the conservative ideals of family she spews.  Notice that our other illogic spewer here had to hook up with a liberal mate.

Comment #107: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  12:14 PM

Correction: not just overly harsh.  She’s just wrong.  People absorb what’s erotic in our society, and you can’t just will that out of being true.  What we can do is educate and emphasize enthusiastic consent.  But there’s nothing wrong per se with embracing what turns you on, as long as everything is safe and truly, thoroughly, enthusiastically consented to.

Comment #108: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  12:21 PM

Wow, I don’t argue that I may have issues, but clearly I’m not the only one.

You’ll have to take my word for it, but you probably won’t (yes, that last bit is passive aggressive) - that I’m not the asshole that you think I am. That I did not intend for my post to be taken in the ways to which it has become enormously twisted. That the vast majority of inferences drawn from what I’ve written are express far more the pre-conceived notions of the respondents than myself and show an equal inclination to stereotype certain males (of which I have automatically been designated) in the same way as you might think I’m stereotyping feminists (or women).

I am out of here, which you may be glad of, but you shouldn’t be because instead of converting me to any viewpoint to which you might hope to instill, instead you’ve lost another person who might have wanted to listen. And frankly I am on your side, even if I might be misguided, and even if you’ve firmly placed me somewhere else.

And I still will be on your side, but not here because honest opinion, even if it’s “wrong”, clearly isn’t welcome.

Comment #109: scathew  on  05/26  at  12:24 PM

Scathew. It is not an honest opinion if it has no evidence to back it up. It is at best a distorted opinion, even if sincerely held.

You’ve been asked to back up your allegations. You haven’t done so. That speaks volumes about your views.

Comment #110: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  05/26  at  12:28 PM

Aw darn we drove away another angry, defensive Dudebro who doesn’t like being told there are things he doesn’t understand.

How dare we ask him to READ A BOOK! Why not just lobotomize him and enslave him as our femi-drone?

Comment #111: Well, what?  on  05/26  at  12:29 PM

Amanda—also, that if you have absorbed patriarchal stuff that hasn’t been examined as something that turns you on, there’s nothing particularly wrong with that either as long as you’re not hurting other people by oh say writing long tiresome screeds about your hangups in nationally syndicated columns.

Comment #112: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/26  at  12:30 PM

Well, what? Don’t forget, Planet Amazonia is run by a femputer.

DEATH BY SNOO-SNOO! Oh wait, is that too sex-positive for scathew?

Comment #113: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/26  at  12:31 PM

<blockquote>Re #4: I’m willing to take her word for it, if she asserts she’s a virgin. <blockquote>

I’m not.

Of course, virginity is a meaningless term - or, rather, it has so many meanings, it doesn’t *say* anything. Is a woman still a virgin if she’s been in a thousand sexual situations (manual, oral, anal, humping, stroking, penetration by sex toys, and other wonderful happy-making), but never actually had a penis inside her vagina? Some say yes, others say no. Is a woman no longer a virgin if her hymen is torn through non-sexual means? Some say yes, others say no. Virginity has many meanings, and so a statement of virginity just doesn’t tell you anything unless it’s defined.

Still, in general, I’ll take someone’s word for their sexual status in a general sense of “it’s none of my fucking business, so why not take them at their word?”

But I won’t grant the presumption of good faith or honesty to a sex-scold.

Comment #114: LongHairedWeirdo  on  05/26  at  12:36 PM

The feminist movement has a lot to answer for when it comes to the open and enthusiastic embrace it gave the contraceptive mentality, which interferes with a woman’s relationship with her own body,

Actually, the pill has improved my relationship with my own body.  My period used to be irregular, but since I’ve been on the pill, my period is so regular you could set your watch to it (and it would only be off by 2-4 hours).  I also love my body more when there isn’t as much blood coming out of it, and I don’t have an unwanted parasite growing in it.  And my body likes me better when I’m not subjecting it to the health risks of constant pregnancy or the stress of worrying about pregnancy.

Good women who connect sex and reproduction the old-fashioned way through youthful marriage and baby-making, especially through shotgun marriages, have higher divorce rates.

Well, I’m just shocked!  Who could have ever predicted that marriages based on resentment, obligation, and guilt would turn out badly?

Comment #115: bananacat  on  05/26  at  12:38 PM

“DEATH BY SNOO-SNOO!”

Woo Hoo!!

I actually saw this episode the other night. There are so many LOL moments in it. One of my faves.

Comment #116: Mark  on  05/26  at  12:46 PM

Well, does it matter if I sincerely apologize for offending and for lacking any backup to my contentions? Is there anything I can say that will wrest me from the stereotypes of which I have cast myself into?

Comment #117: scathew  on  05/26  at  12:47 PM

Mark—I have to admit, earlier this year as I was falling down the stairs that resulted in a badly broken ankle and complications, the line “you win again, gravity!” did flash through my mind.

Comment #118: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/26  at  12:51 PM

We expect men to behave like human beings, therefore we hate men.

We think that men can be competent parents, have self-control over their emotions, have meaningful relationships with both men and women, respect women as humans, look sexually attractive, provide sexual pleasure to partners, and even perform domestic chores adequately.  But don’t you see?  Those are things that women do.  So we’re basically calling them women, which is the worst possible insult imaginable to them.  It’s worse to be woman-like than to be angry, incompetent, ugly, mean jerks.  Therefore, we hate them by insulting them in the worst way possible.

Comment #119: bananacat  on  05/26  at  12:52 PM

Try apologizing, and then stop trying to make this thread all about your hurt feelings?

Comment #120: Denise  on  05/26  at  12:53 PM

The silver lining is that, the less people like K-Lo understand feminism, the safer feminism is from them.

Comment #121: atheist  on  05/26  at  12:54 PM

Scathew, speaking as another bloke, a good strategy is this:

(a) If you can’t back something up, then it possibly isn’t true. If folks here are telling you it isn’t true, then listen to them.

(b) Be prepared to throw away preconceptions. Again listen.

(c) Shut up and listen.

Notice the listening theme here?

I’d don’t post here much because I REALLY don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to what women know and believe and experience. I work on the basis that anything I will say is likely to be foolish and shot down very swiftly.

It’s been difficult, because like many guys I love the sound of my own voice and like to sound off about my own opinions. But believe me there is much merit in shutting up and listening to what the ladies have to say. Also in preparing to admit my ignorance when I ask questions and say idiot things.

There’s a world of female experience here on this blog to be learned, enjoyed and illuminated by. However, I’m not going to learn anything if I keep blathering. So on the whole I keep my mouth shut and only jump in when it’s on a subject I genuinely know anything about, like video games.

Comment #122: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  05/26  at  12:55 PM

Ok, I apologize - period.

Comment #123: scathew  on  05/26  at  12:56 PM

Well, I am definitely shutting up.

Comment #124: scathew  on  05/26  at  12:57 PM

PS: There should have been a smiley after that last one…

Comment #125: scathew  on  05/26  at  12:57 PM

Good lad. You’re learning…

Comment #126: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  05/26  at  01:00 PM

I am out of here, which you may be glad of, but you shouldn’t be because instead of converting me to any viewpoint to which you might hope to instill, instead you’ve lost another person who might have wanted to listen.

We’re getting awfully close to Bingo!

Comment #127: jenofiniquity  on  05/26  at  01:07 PM

Ironically, I get the impression that if KLo’s politics changed to much more liberal ones, she would find somebody who found her intellectually stimulating to settle down and have a lifelong relationship and family with.

I think you’re right. Her mistake was to choose what is a feminist lifestyle: making a career move to a coastal city to pursue a big professional/intellectual opportunity while also embracing a right wing/anti-feminist ideology. She probably could have pursued to more traditional lifestyle she valorozes if she had also accepted the cultural trappings—living close to home, marrying someone from her own religious/ethnic/local community and not uprooted herself to move to less conservative parts of the country to focus on her career: a lifestyle choice that’s much more socially friendly to you if you’re politically liberal.

Comment #128: Tyro  on  05/26  at  01:38 PM

What is nature to a human?

As nearly as I can tell from the study of hunter-gatherers and primates, the “natural” state of human reproduction would be:

- Women respond to sexual overtures from men when they feel like it
- They respond to sexual overtures from *any* man and *however many* men they feel like having sex with
- Men consider the children of any woman they’ve ever slept with to be *potentially* theirs and therefore invest a bit in protecting those children
- However, men don’t actually do any child care whatsoever; they ignore babies until the kids are like 8 or so
- Groups are matrilineal and matrilocal; young men leave the group and wander until they find a group whose women like them enough to invite them in; daughters inherit their mothers’ “territory”
- Men fight each other for status, and women like the high status guys enough to sleep with them more often, but the lower status guys get plenty of action on the side, because women sleep with anyone they want to and are not “owned” by high status men

So, anytime men want to give up patriarchy lock, stock and barrel, be considered satellites in respect to the “natural” family unit of mother and child, have no idea who their own children are and don’t care either, and live in groups where all the women know each other and have lived together forever but the men are all coming from outside and have to get to know the group the way women have to do with men and their families in large patrilocal families now, we can get back to “nature” and the lack of birth control. Give women 100% control over when sex happens, how sex happens and who it happens with, with no restrictions on who they sleep with (out of the pool of consenting adults), no slut-shaming, no rape, and freedom to be completely promiscuous or to seek sex with only one other person, whichever they choose… and maybe giving up birth control would be acceptable, because then all the power over the circumstances that *lead* to pregnancy would be back in the hands of the beings that should have that power “naturally”, the beings who actually endure being pregnant.

But since that’s not going to happen, and wouldn’t necessarily be desirable anyway (I mean, I like the notion of the no slut-shaming, but plenty of women don’t like their moms, I love my mom but wouldn’t want to live anywhere near where she lives, and I think the human male’s capacity to love and care for infants, in defiance of much of his evolutionary history, is a wonderful thing), how about we agree that the way reproduction happens in our society is completely unnatural and then stop trying to prevent “unnatural” things from happening that are involved with reproduction?

Comment #129: Alara J Rogers  on  05/26  at  01:41 PM

Something that few want to broach; K-Lo is not “conventionally attractive”.  Frankly, she just isn’t attractive.

I don’t find K-Lo easy on the eyes, either, but that’s the least of her problems.  Here is a woman who has utterly bought into the idea that if she shuts down her intellect, libido & self-worth, God will provide her with with a magnificent Prince Charming. 

I met more than a few women just like her back when I used to run with a pack of fundyvangelicals.  The crippling fear of sexuality, the anxiety about falling off the pedestal of respectable womanhood and ending up like the sluts in LiberalAbortionland, the seething resentment of women who dropped their fundy baggage and settled into happy relationships and the insistence that said women aren’t *really* happy…it’s all the same.  Women who found love without making her Faustian bargain put the lie to it, and attacking them gives her something to do besides acknowledge the virulent misogyny sitting at her elbows.

Comment #130: Sour Kraut  on  05/26  at  01:53 PM

According to the wiki bio of Lopez, she grew up in the Chelsea section of lower Manhattan and is back in New York working for National Review. How did she miss New York liberal influence so thoroughly? It’s not that it’s impossible to be a conservative New Yorker, it’s that her writings as a conservative make her sound like she spent her life in Palin’s neck of the woods—the lack of coherence and respect for reality.  Something is wrong here.

Comment #131: LCforevah  on  05/26  at  02:08 PM

See I didn’t realise that I had to like sex and the city and fake jimmy choo’s to enjoy sex. I must just be a bad feminist.

Comment #132: Leah Jaclyn  on  05/26  at  02:29 PM

I don’t find K-Lo easy on the eyes, either, but that’s the least of her problems.  Here is a woman who has utterly bought into the idea that if she shuts down her intellect, libido & self-worth, God will provide her with with a magnificent Prince Charming.

Frankly I have no idea what K-Lo (or any other big-C Conservative for that matter) thinks she’s going to get out of her many putrid positions.

Comment #133: liberalrob  on  05/26  at  02:39 PM

“I don’t find K-Lo easy on the eyes, either, but that’s the least of her problems.”

I find that people I admire in ways that have nothing to do with their looks appear attractive to me.  The more I began to understand this as I got older, the less bound I was to conventional ideas about appearance.  I still like a nice ass and legs, but what I like to look at and what I find attractive are two different things.

Comment #134: DBK  on  05/26  at  02:42 PM

“Here is a woman who has utterly bought into the idea that if she shuts down her intellect, libido & self-worth, God will provide her with with a magnificent Prince Charming. “

Bingo.  She’s not found her Prince Charming, therefore no other woman has either. Because if she admits they - those slutty, pill-taking, liberal feminists - have found a man, that might mean there’s something wrong with *her* and not women in general.  Then she’d actually have to work on herself and that’s not as lucrative, apparently, as being a kill-joy.

Comment #135: Gypsy Lee  on  05/26  at  02:45 PM

I wish I had a nickel for every time I’ve seen comment #109.

Comment #136: liberalrob  on  05/26  at  02:47 PM

Well guys, I admire your ideas of what is attractive.  I myself find a big throbbing brain to be a huge turn on in a guy.  This doesn’t change the fact that she’s not goodlooking and there’s every chance that she has pulled the exact same thing the “nice guy” does.  She may very well be seething with resentment towards the sluts that she has witnessed men pursuing.

Someone above mentioned that she would have a better chance ending up with what she apparently wants (a husband, children) if she were a liberal.  I think that’s right.  Not that no liberal men are shallow assholes, but there are more liberal men than con men who aren’t.  I also think it’s really unfair that, and I"m sorry, but, butt ugly men like Rand Paul can get beautiful wives (his wife is beautiful), but a successfull female conservative like Lopez can’t pull in any ass on her creds. 

But that’s how the conservative world works.  That’s really how the patriarchy works isn’t it? 

Anyway, I don’t know her.  I’m just saying, this is a possibility.  I think it’s a really good possibility.  I don’t think this is a happy person.  This sounds like a person who believes she’s been fucked.  I feel some sympathy for her.

Comment #137: JennyLI  on  05/26  at  03:06 PM

According to the wiki bio of Lopez, she grew up in the Chelsea section of lower Manhattan and is back in New York working for National Review. How did she miss New York liberal influence so thoroughly

Growing up in NYC lends itself to a certain amount of provincialism. When K-Lo was growing up, Chelsea was a heavily Latino neighborhood. She probably went to a local all girls Catholic school attended by many of her neighbors, and the first time she spent a significant amount of time outside the immediate confines of Chelsea was when she went to college. “New York liberal” as we understand it, to her, probably meant “white secular rich kid” or “poor black person.” When she got to college, “successful bourgois religious Catholic” was probably heavily coded as “right wing conservative,” and that was what she set her ambitions on becoming. The problem is that conservatism just doesn’t have many roles for you to play, especially as a woman. You’re either a sexy “look how sexy conservative women are!” object or a quiet, unseen, “I settled down and fulfilled my duty as a wife and mother” object. Men have a bit more flexibility, but you’re stuck trying to be or be an apologist for the wealthy or those who like to think of themselves as “real Americans.”

Comment #138: Tyro  on  05/26  at  03:41 PM

I actually think K-Lo looks pretty cute in these photos:

http://www2.nationalreview.com/dest/2009/10/28/description20091028otpkjlobamainsult.jpg

http://www.franciscan.edu/uploadedImages/Top_Level/About/News/LopezTalkImage.2.jpeg

She looks “unattractive” in the clearly posed photos, because her smile looks unnatural and strained. It’s what people usually describe as “unphotogenic”—which generally means that the person in question has trouble relaxing in front of a camera and just looking like their normal self. The best pictures of the “unphotogenic” people I know were taken when the person did not know they were being photographed.

I agree with the previous commenters who are suggesting that K-Lo might’ve been more successful dating-wise if she were a liberal feminist, due to the type of career she’s chosen, and due to the fact that she seems to have a lot of personal drive and an unwillingness to be seen and not heard. Admirable qualities, so it’s a damn shame that she’s internalized the belief that she has no worth outside of being a mother ... plus she takes out her own self-loathing on other women.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to be a mother and wanting to find someone to spend one’s life with. But having such low self-esteem that you believe you aren’t truly a “woman” until you do those things ... ::shakes head:: In fact, that low self-esteem and cripplingly low sense of self-worth is probably the main thing holding her back relationship-wise.

Comment #139: Samus  on  05/26  at  03:47 PM

How is she so successful? I am asking this seriously. Who hired her? How did they think she would benefit NRO? As someone mentioned above she doesn’t have the fox news babe look and isn’t the type that makes rich old conservatives reach for the cialis when she touts her virginity. She isn’t a particularly good writer and she doesn’t fit the normal “wingnut welfare” mold. She is one of the many people (like most of the NYT op-ed writers) where I just don’t understand why she gets such an awesome job when so many bright, brilliant writers and politicos end up having to wait tables, etc to make ends meet.

Comment #140: alysia  on  05/26  at  03:57 PM

The sob stories from those who waited longer than they should have to try to conceive

Most of the sob stories I’ve seen involved women who had a really hard time finding a life partner, so they eventually gave up and settled for some random guy or decided to have a child on their own.  But I guess K-Lo et al expect all women to settle.

Comment #141: keshmeshi  on  05/26  at  04:04 PM

Samus, the problem isn’t her rather conventional appearance, but the “standards” of the people she chooses to hang around with.  Palin and Coulter and Malkin are “allowed” to act like a lot of liberated women soley because they fit within the narrow definition of fuckable.  Matalin had to turn to a liberal for action, one who was attracted mostly to her personality. 

There are likely a lot of men who would be quite happy with KLo - but only if she stopped being a self-hating apologist for misogyny.

Comment #142: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  04:05 PM

#138, thanks for the explanation of the neighborhood. I guess it depends on what order of nuns was running the schools. I grew up in a predominately Mexican neighborhood and went to the local catholic grammar school. The Daughters of Mary and Joseph, the nuns that ran the parish, were mostly from Ireland and were a pretty liberal bunch—they considered democratic liberal principles completely in line with their vocation.

Today I am an atheist, but remain a liberal due to their influence.

It saddens me that as the presence of nuns has diminished, the ugliness of RC conservatism has increased.

Comment #143: LCforevah  on  05/26  at  04:55 PM

Wow, I don’t argue that I may have issues, but clearly I’m not the only one.

Ah yes, first the myth of anti-sex feminists, and then the accusation that a woman can only argue with you due to deep-set mental health problems.  Keep digging!

Comment #144: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  04:56 PM

Ok, I apologize - period.

Well, thanks.  I also promise I don’t have deep set mental health issues.  I just got over the feminine training not to challenge men a long time ago, especially since I came up in blogging during a time men were writing these blog posts hypothesizing that there weren’t any female bloggers because women don’t like to argue.

Comment #145: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  04:59 PM

Putting Lopez aside becuase I really think she needs professional help, in all seriousness, I am so curious about these right wing women who reach a certain age and reinvent themselves.  Raquel Welch, who Lopez is all estatic about, has been married four fucking times.  Now she is bemoaning women like me who aren’t seniors yet, not picking one man and sticking with him for life damnit!

Where the hell do they get off?  I have a right wing aunt like this.  She’s been married three times, divorced twice.  But that’s not even half the story.  This woman fucked her way through her 40’s and 50’s, seriously.  And in her 40’s she was married to her first husband so it was all extra-marital.  She even fucked her brother-in-law at one point. 

Today, she considers herself “just an old-fashioned wife and mother”.  Her third husband is a very conservative right wing christian who is completely clueless about her history.  She is now anti-choice.  She once said in front of him “oh isn’t it interesting how the older you get the more conservative you get”? This was about abortion.  It was really hard for me to keep my mouth shut.

It’s not that you get more conservative.  It’s that you and your friend Welch and God knows how many others fucked any man you had an itch for and loved every second of it.

Now, you’re 70 something years old, and you want everyone to stop fucking.

Well, fuck you.

Comment #146: JennyLI  on  05/26  at  05:33 PM

I found a minute - and I guess it was Dworkin, who has already been brought up, was the one that I was remembering:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin

Particularly the 1987 publication of “Intercourse”. Obviously that isn’t in the 90’s (though `87 isn’t that far off), nor a “swath” of them (which was a dumb statement for me to say from the start), though I swear hearing more voices at the time (Catharine MacKinnon came up - but I don’t equate thinking porn is bad, which I can’t argue can be degrading to women, to being “anti-sex”).

Ultimately it sounds like Dworkin may have been misunderstood: “Since the paradigm for sex has been one of conquest, possession, and violation, I think many men believe they need an unfair advantage, which at its extreme would be called rape. I do not think they need it.”

I’m sure I won’t convince, but I wasn’t trying to imply even slightly all feminists are “anti-sex”. I don’t believe that, just as I don’t believe a lot of other things ascribed to me here. I just remembered some seemingly very radicalized feminists essentially, at least in my (misogynistic) mind equating “sex = bad” in what seemed in a curiously similar way to those on the religious right. Again, that seemed ironic. In short I was saying, some small very radicalized segment (“ultra-feminists” I called them - wrongly it seems) that came round what seemed circle.

Anyway, I apologize again for offense given.

Comment #147: scathew  on  05/26  at  05:38 PM

Spending some time at newadvent.org to track down the change in attitude towards “natural family planning,” I noticed a distinct anhedonistic attitude amongst the Church Fathers. Sex for pleasure even within marriage was akin to adultery, because the purpose of marriage was to procreate and educate human beings, not to have fun with your dirty, dirty things.

But, K-Lo’s picture reveals she is clearly violating these same Church doctrines because she is a chubbette. And the Church Fathers counseled restraint in eating and drinking, even using the phrase: eat to live, don’t live to eat. Yielding up oneself to one fleshly lust is as bad as yielding oneself up to another.

Go, K-Lo, and sin no more

(“NFP” is acceptable for a married couple who has sufficiently valid reasons to limit the size of their family. NFP does not violate the natural law because nothing is interposed between the male and female genitals, no medical intervention changes the functioning of our genitalia. Married couples are allowed to refrain from sex as Christians are encouraged to fast (and give up pleasures) during Lent.)

Comment #148: Hector B.  on  05/26  at  05:43 PM

scathew—that oft-cited passage in Intercourse was specifically about porn.

Try again.


AnglScarlett—lots of people change their political views to fit their partners. My father didn’t really do a 180 for his new girlfriend, but he at least did a 90. Got WAAAYYYY more conservative when his lady friend was a sheltered old dame from a small town, than he was when he was a married father of 2 girls in a college town.

Comment #149: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/26  at  05:52 PM

#146 Why is it that so many people from all walks of life think that if everybody is not doing it their way, everybody is doing it wrong? It’s a tremendous lack of self awareness to think that’s what’s good for you currently is good for everyone else, especially a 70 year old telling 20/30/40 somethings what to be doing with their sex lives.

Comment #150: LCforevah  on  05/26  at  06:04 PM

I wasn’t trying - I was explaining where I got my faulty impression. The quote, was actually to support Dworkin. Anyway, this piece by by Kat Corbin covers pretty well the impression that was given in the main stream press:

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/sci_cult/courses/sexgender/f05/web3/kcorbin.html

To quote:

“MacKinnon argued that attempting to reclaim sex was a moot point, since the very meaning of sex was male domination. In the most literal terms, when a man and a woman (because these movements are primarily centered around heterosexuals) engage in any sex act that involves penetration, the woman’s space is invaded. The activist group “Women Against Sex” advocated a strategy of sex resistance: “All sex acts subordinate women…all actions that are part of the practice of sexuality partake of the practice’s political function or goal”. This statement indicates that women have no control over their own sexuality, even if they are a consenting adult in the eyes of the law.”

I’m saying that’s the correct impression, but it does echo the impression that was forwarded at the time and that does sounds to me like “sex = bad” (and no it wasn’t strictly about porn according to the blog post I’m referencing).

Now, the quote I give in the post before that shows that I and others misinterpreted Dworkin. Also if it was somehow only about porn, then I was wrong from the beginning.

Again, I never interpreted Dworkin as being mainstream feminist even then, nor again, do have I ever thought that those who call themselves feminist are anti-sex. I don’t honestly know what the vast majority of “feminists” think about sex. It honestly has never come to my mind until I got skewered (rightfully) here.

Comment #151: scathew  on  05/26  at  06:10 PM

Whoops - that should be “I’m not saying that’s the correct impression”! There I go sticking my foot in it again!

Comment #152: scathew  on  05/26  at  06:11 PM

Her column photo was taken without makeup, in a color unflattering to her, in an unflattering suit.  I realize NRO isn’t going to be sending Annie Liebovitz to take her picture, but holy moly, compared to the two Samus found, this is one step away from a morgue photo.

Like many female conservatives, her job is to be something to point to when men say, “women do too agree with us!”  That she generates literate, spellchecked copy on a regular basis is a plus.

She’s bigger than a size 6, so she’ll never get laid by the twits she’s defending.  It’s pretty depressing.

Comment #153: oldfeminist  on  05/26  at  06:43 PM

I don’t even know where to begin.

Comment #154: Lisa KS  on  05/26  at  06:48 PM

“She’s bigger than a size 6, so she’ll never get laid by the twits she’s defending.  It’s pretty depressing.”

That is depressing. Because she most likely doesn’t see herself as attractive either after working with those twits for so long.

Comment #155: Mark  on  05/26  at  07:16 PM

I am no fan of K-lo in particular, or the larger batch of women who get to live feminist lifestyles funded entirely by money they make from excoriating other women, especially feminists. 

That said, I am really disappointed in the focus on K-lo’s appearance here.  The woman’s ideas are egregiously ugly. Her face and ass are not our concern.  It may eventually have evolved into “pity the poor unfuckable, because she picked the wrong tribe.  Our Nigels would totally have fucked her” but that’s also not acceptable.  Because we’re supposed to be fucking feminists. We know that a woman’s ideas and worth are not calculated by assessing her fuckability quotient.

Comment #156: Heo Cwaeth  on  05/26  at  10:17 PM

#94: scathew on 05/26 at 09:30 AM:

Ok, so you’re saying because of one accidentally offensive comment based on a misunderstanding that clearly I need some adjustment via reading, therapy of sorts, to fix me of my clearly male-prejudiced psychology?

Anything by Tavris is a fun and interesting read. You would feel a little uncomfortable at times, but you won’t feel like you’re being “adjusted”, “therapied”, or “fixed”, and you’d enjoy the book despite the occasional discomfort.

Comment #157: llewelly  on  05/26  at  10:30 PM

Ok, I’ll give it a spin - thanks. Sounds like I need to reach outside my normal boundaries a bit.

Sorry for being a prick in response. It just got really personal in there (which I’m not arguing I deserved some of)...

Comment #158: scathew  on  05/26  at  11:14 PM

Heo, the point is that her ugly hateful ideas put her into a group of ugly hateful people who don’t find that she fits into their frames of attractiveness, despite her defense of their ugly hate.

If her intellect were put to better ends, her appearance would likely be less relevant to the potential mates around her because appearance would be less relevant.

In an ideal world, her appearance would be irrelevant.  This is not an ideal world.  Nobody here has criticized her appearance outside of the Wingnut Fuckability frame anyway.  Her rather common looks and the way she is treated by her chosen tribe compared to less literate boosters of hatred does underscore just how hateful these people are.

Comment #159: Ms Kate  on  05/27  at  12:25 AM

#94 “However, to imply that I need to read a book to post an honest (if clumsy) opinion in front of women actually treats women as unequals.”

Really? Would telling you to tread a book on basic physics before posting an honest (if clumsy) opinion on the laws of physics to a a group of physicists be insulting to the physicists? Or is it only insulting to us if we tell you you aren’t an expert on *feminism*? Can you not see mansplaining feminism to feminists is as insulting as laymansplaining physics to a physicist would be? We’re being insulted by YOU, not by ourselves telling you you need to meet certain standards of knowledge.

Comment #160: Samantha Vimes  on  05/27  at  01:08 AM

Is fatherhood at the heart of what it means to be a man? I’m just wondering…

Comment #161: Neko Onna  on  05/27  at  02:38 AM

Scathew, there are people here who know this stuff far better than I do, but it doesn’t take much digging to discover the extent to which MacKinnon and Dworkin have been misquoted, taken out of context and vilified by anti-feminists (many but not all conservative) and, in the case of anti-porn legislation, the moneyed interests of the porn industry. There’s even a Scopes page on the ‘all sex is rape’ calumny. It’s a good place to start.

I fear you may have been misled by clever men trying to scotch some powerful ideas—such as sex being an act that demands reciprocity, not subordination. Or that porn, particularly porn that depicts the degradation or humiliation of women, has an insidious effect and may be used as a tool by actual rapists.

Sex-hating feminists really are a monster of the id, conjured up by canny propagandists. The people here try very hard to squish them, but as you have proven by your statements, these slogans are insidious and have been absorbed deep into our culture.

Comment #162: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  05/27  at  04:13 AM

Scathew, one more thing. You are in danger of running foul of the Pandagonians. And I can see some of the frustration in you that some untutored men have when they heave to at a feminist blog for the first time. Here’s some more advice from a bloke, if you’ll have it:

(a) You are mansplaining. There are some good definitions of this on the web, but you can start here:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mansplain

Or this:

http://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2010/01/you_may_be_a_mansplainer_if.php

I recommend the comments in that second one.

I am, of course, mansplaining this to you. But that’s so you can understand what it’s like to be on the receiving end.

(b) This forum is not about you or your feelings. A common error of many guys is to come here and try to make it about them and ‘why are the women being so mean to me?’ Or ‘I’m not being an asshole, I’m just being honest!’ I’m afraid the women here will deliver an RPG round to the head if you try that trick. And you will have scant sympathy from bystanders like me.

The two points above really come down to what I hinted at earlier—you are talking too much. No-one is asking you to censor yourself per se, but when you are talking over women or talking at them, you are in danger of not listening to what they have to say. And that makes them disinclined to give you the time of day, or be gentle with you. You really need to listen to their hard-earned experience, not what you think their experience is or should be, or why their words make you feel bad.

I think you really, REALLY need to read this, and right now:

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/where-to-start/faq-i-asked-some-feminists-a-question-and-instead-of-answering-they-sent-me-here-why/

And please click through every link you can at that site.

Comment #163: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  05/27  at  05:54 AM

“Is fatherhood at the heart of what it means to be a man? I’m just wondering…”

Of course not.  That’s just silly.

Being a father and being a Mighty Warrior Bravely Defending America by Shooting/Bombing Brown People in War are both required to be considered A Man.  Have you learned nothing since 9/11?...

Comment #164: MikeEss  on  05/27  at  09:31 AM

Hector:

““NFP” is acceptable for a married couple who has sufficiently valid reasons to limit the size of their family. NFP does not violate the natural law because nothing is interposed between the male and female genitals, no medical intervention changes the functioning of our genitalia. Married couples are allowed to refrain from sex as Christians are encouraged to fast (and give up pleasures) during Lent.”

I won’t go into all the failures, but the logic is fatally flawed.  I’d say more, but I’ve been through this church doctrine bs before a million times (I went to a Catholic high school…the priests were all failures at logic and I never got tired when I was younger of running rings around them logically—PENGUIN!—but I’m older and it bores me now).

Comment #165: DBK  on  05/27  at  10:13 AM

DBK—Yes, I took a trip through the heart of darkness because I recalled that once even the rhythm method was taboo, and wanted to see how the Church had rehabilitated it. I’m not supporting that argument; just didn’t want my effort to go completely to waste. (Just as, once learning how to spell rhythm, I enjoy taking advantage of opportunities to show off.)

But, by far the most interesting thing I learned on that trip was that, based on her chubby appearance, even the virginal K-Lo had given herself over to fleshly lusts condemned by the Church Fathers.

Comment #166: Hector B.  on  05/27  at  10:48 AM

@Lee Brimmicombe-Wood

Thank you, I will think about what you’ve forwarded and how I communicate both with men and women. I will also check out the aforementioned book. I doubt however I will post on feminist blog again, at least on a subject that relates to feminism (which was in retrospect, quite stupid on my part).

@Everyone else

While I do think a gentler and less personal hand would generally help in getting those like myself who don’t get it to listen, I apologize again, I was offensive and insulting (despite intentions otherwise)(except, when I admit, it got personal and I jabbed back, which I shouldn’t have).

I also must personally apologize to Amanda, who I didn’t realize was the OP, and I was particularly hard on. My sincere apologies Amanda.

Comment #167: scathew  on  05/27  at  11:33 AM

Yes, gluttony is a mortal sin, but I thought everyone knew that.  And she may not be guilty of gluttony.  I don’t know her and don’t know anything about how or why or when or what she eats.  Maybe she has a thyroid condition.

Comment #168: DBK  on  05/27  at  11:54 AM

Scathew, I honestly believe you’d benefit from quietly hanging around a blog like this and simply watching and learning. You’ll be a better man for it.

As for the Pandagonians needing to be gentler and less personal, be careful. This smacks of male privilege. Guys often demand to be heard and respected by women and some really can’t handle rejection, scant regard and disrespect. When you come into a space which is organised by women for the benefit of women, you check your privilege at the door or take a hike.

Women have no special obligation to be gentle with any of us. It’s a rough and tough place. Unless we have something positive to contribute we guys are interlopers. And if we get the high hat, it’s because the Pandagonians get a truckload of male privilege hurled at them on a regular basis and just don’t have the energy to hand-hold us and gently break us in.

Comment #169: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  05/27  at  12:28 PM

Hector and DBK, there are so many laws regarding sexual behavior still on the “books” of the RCC that it boggles. One of them is that if you can no longer have children, you must abstain as a couple, since lust, however mutual between two married adults, is still a sin.

My mother died at age 77. She had a hysterectomy at age 50. The RCC would have it that my parents not engage in intimacy for 27 years! Of course, nowadays no priest would dare counsel a married couple to do any such thing as abstain for 27 years—it would turn into one more thing couples ignore—not to mention finding another xtian sect to go to on Sundays.

K-Lo is the product of an institution so twisted, that she becomes capable of writing an article full of cognitive dissonance and logical convolutions without having cultivated the self awareness it takes to see what she is doing. The lack of self awareness is also part of RCC education when you swallow it hook, line and sinker.

Comment #170: LCforevah  on  05/27  at  12:28 PM

From my experience, of the feminist blogs, Pandagon is the most tolerant of guys who haven’t yet comprehended what feminism is all about. Assuming that such guys have come here in good faith, and not to practice assholery.

Comment #171: Hector B.  on  05/27  at  01:20 PM

Would telling you to tread a book on basic physics before posting an honest (if clumsy) opinion on the laws of physics to a a group of physicists be insulting to the physicists? Or is it only insulting to us if we tell you you aren’t an expert on *feminism*? Can you not see mansplaining feminism to feminists is as insulting as laymansplaining physics to a physicist would be? We’re being insulted by YOU, not by ourselves telling you you need to meet certain standards of knowledge.
Comment #160: Samantha Vimes on 05/26 at 11:08 PM

Sadly, this is indeed an argument many anti-science people will make to you.  That science books just subvert your natural intelligence and “brainwash” you into believing crazy stuff like evilution or relativity, and blind you to the glories of God and/or crackpottery.

Comment #172: oldfeminist  on  05/27  at  01:44 PM

having actually read some Dworkin—literary criticism people, Intercourse was primarily literary criticism—she didn’t think sex was bad.  She thought sex as imagined and practiced by members of the patriarchy was mostly indistinguishable from rape.
Comment 49—rowmyboat

Soundbites are lossy; if you try to get a whole book, much less a whole philosophical approach to heterosexual relationships, down to four words, a bit of nuance may well by the wayside.

Without reading Dworkin (or Morgan), it always seems to me that the implicit paragraph after “heterosexual sex is rape” is “now that I have your attention, there are some problems with the way men and women relate to each other sexually. I’m going to explain the problems and then tell you what I think we can do about it.”

As nearly as I can tell from the study of hunter-gatherers and primates, the “natural” state of human reproduction would be:
- Women respond to sexual overtures from men when they feel like it
- They respond to sexual overtures from *any* man and *however many* men they feel like having sex with
- Men consider the children of any woman they’ve ever slept with to be *potentially* theirs and therefore invest a bit in protecting those children
- However, men don’t actually do any child care whatsoever; they ignore babies until the kids are like 8 or so
- Groups are matrilineal and matrilocal; young men leave the group and wander until they find a group whose women like them enough to invite them in; daughters inherit their mothers’ “territory”
- Men fight each other for status, and women like the high status guys enough to sleep with them more often, but the lower status guys get plenty of action on the side, because women sleep with anyone they want to and are not “owned” by high status men
Comment 129—Alara J Rogers

Where do I sign up?

Comment #173: Hershele Ostropoler  on  05/27  at  05:36 PM

@Lee Brimmicombe-Wood

Ok ok, I’ll just shut up an listen! wink


@Hector B

I’ll make a concerted attempt, if I ever post again, not to practice “assholery”. Unfortunately I seem to have dug myself a big enough hole with the Pandagon crowd that I doubt I will be willing to try post again!

Comment #174: scathew  on  05/27  at  10:29 PM

Psh, scathew, I doubt there’s much in the way of hard feelings—for one, Amanda is far too busy to worry about you beyond your more egregious comments and for two, everyone on here has seen much worse.

But yeah, that’s all the “there there, poor dear"s you’re getting from me. Pandagon is a relatively gentle starting point for feminism (you’ll get yelled at a bit sometimes but not banned, like other blogs might.) Hang around (quietly :p) and get a feel for the place; it’s fun once you know the culture well enough not to put your foot in it.

Comment #175: Bagelsan  on  05/28  at  06:39 AM

@Bagelsan

And quiet I shall be!

Thanks! wink

Comment #176: scathew  on  05/28  at  09:43 AM
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