maybe he meant the voices in his head?

“Perhaps henceforth Mr. Wilson should soft-pedal the “have their voices heard” part.”

here’s the really scary thing: this guy is an actual lawyer, a former judge. according to his bio, he practiced real estate law for 25 odd years in columbia, sc. makes you wonder how many of those titles are of questionable worth.

the second scariest thing: whether he’s willfully ignorant, or actually really stupid, he does in fact represent his constituents.

A restriction against allowing funding for illegal immigrants is useless unless there is some mechanism for enforcement, for verifying that those who apply for funds are indeed legal residents/citizens.

It’s called a Social Security number for citizens and permanent legal residents, and an ITIN for the rest who aren’t here legally or on a long-term basis, so implementation should be easy to to do on a federal or state governmental level, dipshit.

Everyone seems to ignore the fact that death panels already exist.

f this monstrous abomination of a bill does get passed

There is no bill yet.  Your wingnut talking points are weeks, if not months, premature.

useless unless there is some mechanism for enforcement

1. Fear and self-selection have proven to be quite effective. A House of Representatives committee investigating Medicaid rolls in six states found a grand total of eight people who were inappropriately receiving benefits.

2. Establishing additional citizenship verification requirements primarily punishes poor and elderly native-born Americans, many of them black. (People born at home and/or in the south are more likely to lack birth certificates.) Reports from the House Committee on Government and Oversight Reform and the GAO confirm that citizenship verification requirements cost millions and punish Americans. Specifically, for every $100 in federal taxpayer funds spent to implement the regulations, only 14 cents in savings could be documented.

There is no bill yet.  Your wingnut talking points are weeks, if not months, premature.

Big Lies need a lead time.

A restriction against allowing funding for illegal immigrants is useless unless there is some mechanism for enforcement, for verifying that those who apply for funds are indeed legal residents/citizens.

Hey, if you guys hadn’t decided that a birth certificate issued by the county clerk doesn’t count as proof of citizenship, it wouldn’t be a problem.  Good luck going to the county office and demanding that they give you the vault copy of your birth certificate so you can prove you’re a citizen and get your healthcare benefits.  Until you have that vault copy in your hand, how do we know you weren’t born in Kenya?

Quick on the draw with the wingnut talking points Cicero!  Good on ya you’re earning your pay.

I personally am sick of illegal immigrants driving on my taxpayer funded streets and highways.  I think we should get rid of them or implement a system of citizenship checkpoints in the highway system and on city streets.  This will show those illegals they don’t get a free ride in the USA you betcha.

Really?  What do you call H.R. 3200?

One of five bills that will have to be reconciled in committee, assuming all of them pass.  What, you thought that was the one-and-only bill?

At least Cicero can be proud that his obsession with who’s a citizen and who’s not meant that elderly nuns without proper ID were turned away at the polls in Indiana.  And you know it’s true, because it was on Fox and not just those liberal MSM outlets like MSNBC and the LA Times. 

You gotta watch those nuns 24/7—you never know what kind of crazy shit they’ll vote for.  And, hey, just because no one has ever been caught trying to vote on a fake ID doesn’t mean it might someday possibly happen, and then what, huh?  Huh?  All us liberals would feel pretty foolish if you did manage to find a case someday of someone voting with a fake ID, wouldn’t we?  You’ll show us one of these days.

Given that the video quotes from HR 3200, I think it’s fair to couch the discussion in terms of that bill. And dcb - while cicero may indeed have deep-seated issues with illegal immigrants, it is possible to a) be disgusted that they are explicitly excluded from the bill and b) doubt the efficacy of the bill at doing what it claims to.
That said, I think most people who are concerned are not concerned about subsidies, but rather about having illegal immigrants be (potentially) included in their insurance pools, since there’s nothing to stop them paying the full premium to get insurance.
Yes, the sensible folks realize that is exactly the same situation as now (although the barriers to getting insurance, both cost and pre-existing condition-wise, are probably higher now, so the number of illegal immigrants getting insrance via the public option would likely be higher). The sensible folks also probably realize that health care for illegal immigrants is good, too.
If you’re going to try to talk to the non-sensible (insensible?) people who actually are upset about this, though, saying there won’t be subsidies doesn’t address their main concern.

Of course, cicero may not have issues with the illegal immigrants - I don’t know, and don’t think it can be determined from his statements (that’s what I was trying to say)

Coments so far have indicated that a) measures in force already address citizenship issues when it comes to recieving government benefits, b) audits have found that the measures are working very well (very few people found abusing the system c) the public option is still a pay to play system, so even if undocumented immigrants could find enough fake documents to scam the system, they would still have to pay for the insurance.  Cicero reading comprehension fail.

If there is no enforcement provision, then how can you claim that illegal immigrants would not be able to receive funds?

Let me guess—you’re also under the impression that illegal immigrants receive millions of dollars in welfare money from the government because there is no application process.  People just show up at the welfare office and the clerk hands them money.

Ursula, didn’t anyone tell you that when Cigna decides a 17 year old girl doesn’t deserve a liver transplant it’s the miraculous invisible hand of the free market giving each of us a high five?  But it’s certainly not a death panel. 

Several years ago my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer.  She beat the cancer and is doing great but is very vigilant about a recurrance.  She works with several other members of my family in a small business.  The year after she was diagnosed the insurance company quadrupled the cost of the insurance premiums for the company insurance program.  My parents ended up switching to a different insurer, paying twice what the previous premiums were and allowing pre-existing conditions to be covered.  Unfortunately the co-pay is higher and the benefits aren’t as good.

Recently my grandmother was diagnosed with breast cancer too.  She had to have a lumpectomy, which was covered by medicare.  If she didn’t have medicare there is absolutely no way she could have paid for her own treatment.

Several years ago I worked with a man had to come back to work after he retired.  His wife’s cancer returned and she wasn’t old enough to qualify for medicare for another 3 years.  At the age of 67 he had to return to work so that he could get health insurance for his wife.

I’ve recently had trouble with kidney stones, one of which was far too large for me to pass.  If I didn’t have insurance I wouldn’t have been able to afford the treatment and I would eventually have suffered renal failure.  There have been times in my life when I have been uninsured, if this had happened in one of those instances that would have been it for me.

I’m willing to pay a little more to decrease the likelihood that my friends, family, and myself won’t die from a treatable medical condition.

That said, I think most people who are concerned are not concerned about subsidies, but rather about having illegal immigrants be (potentially) included in their insurance pools, since there’s nothing to stop them paying the full premium to get insurance.

I asked you below and you never answered:  what other products do you think should only be sold to citizens?  That’s what we’re talking about here—people complaining that illegal immigrants might be allowed to use their own money to buy health insurance. 

That seems to be Cicero’s complaint.  He wants to tell people that they’re not allowed to spend their own money to buy a product.  It sure sounds like government interference in the marketplace to me, but maybe Cicero can enumerate for us the goods and services that only citizens should be allowed to spend their own money on and how it’s totally not government interference for the government to dictate that you must be a citizen to purchase that item.

Oh for fuck sake, we had this exact argument a few threads ago. As in earlier TODAY.

1. no matter if the subsidies are provided via tax credit or application process, both would require a VALID Social Security number. there’s your enforcement, fucko.

2. when people bitch about illegals getting coverage in the bill, contrary to what you may be concerned about, they don’t fucking mean “oh noes!!! illegals will buy health insurance at full market prices.” to pretend otherwise is insincere concern trolling, not an honest debate.

3. it is impossible to try and counter people twisting themselves into rhetorical pretzels with fer’real logic.

For context, here’s my general view on immigration policy.  We should have high walls and wide gates.  Get control of all our borders, north, south, and coasts (and yes, spend the necessary money on border patrol and customs enforcement).  Increase the number of non-skilled labor permits for people to get in, its currently at, what, 5000 a year?  Increase that by at least 20 times.  Once people are in the system, things like minimum wage laws and other protections would apply. I’d even support some form of amnesty if we could be assured we’d have control of the borders.  (Not citizenship, they did break multiple laws getting here, but permanent legal residency with citizenship for their children if they were brought over before they turned 18.)

Anyone else notice the glaring blind spot in Cicero’s modest proposal?

Here’s my proposal, Cicero:  any company that is found hiring illegal workers is fined in an amount equal to three times the yearly salary of the manager who hired them.  If a company is cited three times for hiring illegal workers, the officers of the company go to jail for one year.

I have a feeling that my proposal would be cheaper and faster than yours, but that’s because mine actually aims at shutting down the supply of jobs people come here for instead of punishing them for coming here and turning a blind eye to the employers who hire them over and over and over again with barely a slap on the wrist.

Sorry—the fine would be three times the yearly salary of the manager who hired them per worker.  If you hired only one illegal worker, you might get off with a fine of $500,000 or so.  If you hired more, you pay more in fines.

Sorry—the fine would be three times the yearly salary of the manager who hired them per worker.  If you hired only one illegal worker, you might get off with a fine of $500,000 or so.  If you hired more, you pay more in fines.

but…but…....but then those companies would have to pay minimum wage and follow labor laws and thats just downright un-American!!!!

/snark

@ Cicero

It must be a horrible existance to live in such fear that the undeserving will recieve something that should only be reserved for the deserving. 

When my great-grandfather got off the boat from Ireland he was greeted by bigots just like you.  When I was a little boy my grandfather told me stories of how people just like you made life hard for my family.  I see the exact same lies and bigotry being directed at latinos now from the same group of no-nothings. 

As for your truth, have you ever even recieved an insurance card?  You need to produce your social security card and a birth certificate.

I’d like to ask a question of all the people concerned about immigrants breaking the law by coming to America.

The USA has signed 150 treaties with the Native American nations who used to own the land.  It has kept none of them, nor has it returned the land stolen through these treaties.

Is your concern for the rule of law selective?

If you’re going to try to talk to the non-sensible (insensible?) people who actually are upset about this, though, saying there won’t be subsidies doesn’t address their main concern.
Comment #15: jalmondale on 09/11 at 01:22 AM

Which is what, jalmodale?  That they’ll lose their opportunities to get a hard on at the thought of all those brown folks bleeding to death outside a hospital?

Here’s my proposal, Cicero:  any company that is found hiring illegal workers is fined in an amount equal to three times the yearly salary of the manager who hired them.  If a company is cited three times for hiring illegal workers, the officers of the company go to jail for one year.

May I add to that Mnemo?  That comapnies who would usually recruit outside the country be givne assistance in recruiting inside it, especially in low income areas - transport, training, etc.

I could get behind prohibitive fines, not so sure about jail time, but yes, enforcement on that end would be a big step in the right direction.

And yet it didn’t even make it into the first draft of your proposal.  Huh.  Almost as though you didn’t think it was important to stop people from hiring illegal workers in your attempt to keep people from coming here to find jobs. 

If the workers these guys hire illegally can be indefinitely detained without trial, I’m sure the CEO of Tyson can do a mere 12 months in jail.  After all, it’s equally criminal to hire an illegal worker and you wouldn’t want crime to go unpunished, would you?

If nothing else, the US is currently guilty of some false advertising - ya know, that statue in the harbor, th epoem needs to be amended*
- give me your tired your poor your huddled masses yearning to breath free (unless of course they need medical care to help do so*

So, Cicero,  have they disbanded the USCIS? Why would they even need extra money for enforcement? If Immigration thought the best way to catch illegals was to check up on people obtaining health insurance, where is the law preventing them from doing so?

So, Cicero, you want to generously invite people in to the country to work here and live an existence as a less-than-full citizen.  You might want to ask France how their long-term worker program has done for them.  Remember the riots in the suburbs in the last few years?  You’re creating a permanent underclass which, I’m well aware, many people are comfortable with. People who believe that people, even people without the dumb luck to be born on a particular territory, are human beings with rights and dignity.

This “no enforcement mechanism” nonsense Cicero is babbling is one of the new right wing memes, but as you might expect, it’s nonsense.  If you think we ought to be doing more to root out and capture illegals, put that in an immigration bill.  Conscripting health care providers into a hunt for illegal immigrants is not appropriate—they have more important things to do, like treating sick people.  The appropriate enforcement mechanism for preventing illegals from gettting health care is to arrest and deport them before they get to the doctor’s office.

Where does it stop?  Will we end up sitting in our cars in line for the drive-through at Burger King, making such that our citizenship papers are in order to show the cashier?

I’m saddened that so many citizens would opt to continue suffering under an inhumane health care system than risk that one illegal alien might receive life saving care. Not to mention that the sight of dead and dying illegals outside our emergency rooms would surely upset poor old grandma and grandpa during their regularly scheduled Medicare visits.

When did our vision of America change from one of an expanding range of opportunities for all its citizens to a selfish scramble to grab whatever scrap of rapidly deteriorating assets remain?  “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy;” said J.K. Galbraith, “that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”

Cicero is a hateful moron and too stupid to deserve anything from us. Illegals under the house bill would get the same short stick that they get now, because there is a fat section in that bill with a nice headline that says right out that “this does not apply to those who are in this country without valid citizenship.”

And by assuaging this man’s racist fears that some undeserving brown person is getting care, we are not having the conversation we should be having. This is the belief by Cicero that there should be a death sentence for every single illegal in this country. That there should be literal death panels deciding if you are too brown or suspicious to receive emergency care and he would like said people to be thrown out on the street to die. That is literally die, because they were illegal.

This also ignores who really is an “illegal” in this country thanks to Bush. I am probably not the only young person who has had to perpetuate fraud in order to help an illegal alien get housing, jobs, or medical treatment. Many of us in my age bracket know at least one “illegal” who has been here in this country since childhood, many immigrating here legally. But thanks to the long wait-times (especially for Russian and Asian ethnicities) for naturalization as well as the instant no-restart cancellation for any reason or any bureaucratic failure, someone who has been here mostly legally since they were 2 years old, can during college lose it all and become an illegal alien.

They are then exploited, raped and abused by landlords and employers, and mistreated by educational institutions which find reasons to deny them any form of funding requiring even more money out of pocket. For medicine, illegals have to find sympathetic hospitals or get refills from friends performing fraud on their behalf. If it’s life-critical medicine like inhalers or insulin, you can well imagine how panicked one can become on a monthly basis.

If we weren’t a nation of sociopaths, we would at least extend basic human rights to all those in our country while we reformed the shit out of our immigration system so that one could emigrate legally a lot more easily, but instead, we have to deal with racist shits like Cicero who would be happy to give up health care for himself to entertain a fantasy of going through brown districts emptying a shotgun.

The racists are not hiding the fact well, not with a black president especially, that they believe that “our tribe” should die. Minorities, women, gays, liberals in general. They believe that we should all die and they’re happy to exchange all of their rights to make that happen. There is something fundamentally wrong with them and we shouldn’t allow the viewpoints of these sociopaths to dominate.

We should be providing real health care to everyone. It should be basic human rights, because anything else is a death sentence against certain groups of people. A literal death panel. But Cicero and his kind are deathly afraid of that and well who can blame them?

They stopped directly threatening death to the blacks a little over 50 years ago and now one of them is president, what could happen if the same threats of death were ceased against women (through pro-life terrorism), gays (through gay bashing coupled with the gay panic defense), and latin@s and asians (through the “illegal alien” scare tactic)?

It’s the legitimate fear underlying everything right now from the right. What will happen when the people we oppress, the people we are trying desperately to kill, stop fearing us?

I say, let’s make them find out.

“No health care for illegals” translates directly to “I hate brown people.”

You know what’s funny?

A few months ago one of the Chicago Sunday magazines had an article about Polish immigrants returning to Poland.  Chicago has more Polish people than any other city except Krakow.  Some of these people are skilled workers, they have children who are American, and, yet, our economy is so bad they are returning to Poland. Some of these people are even doctors!

Except not really.  You see, they used to come over on student or holiday visas, overstay, and then petition for green cards.  Before 9/11 it wasn’t that serious of a problem, b/c coming in illegally isn’t a felony.  You might get kicked out for a decade or more if they find you and you don’t go to them, but it’s not a more serious crime than a speeding ticket.

But now, since the Terra, it’s very difficult to get a green card if you aren’t here legally.  So these nice, tall, blond-haired, blue-eyed people are being forced out b/c they are illegal immigrants.  No one is rounding them up, but they can’t change their status to legals and maintaining employment is very difficult without SSNs or Green Cards.  B/c it’s illegal.

Not one hateful letter followed that article.  No one complained about how illegal immigration is destroying the country, even though that’s exactly the issue.  Had the article been about brown Catholics here illegally vs. blond Catholics here illegally, Cicero (you mean the town next to Chicago, don’t you?) and his ilk would have been all over it.

But the article and the letters all sympathized with the plight of the Poor White People Who Just Want A Better Life Here In The Land Of Opportunity.

The whole “high walls” metaphor is a dead giveaway to the brown people hate.  We’re not building a useless wall by Canada.  We’re building a useless wall next to Mexico.

Yeah, yeah, it’s a metaphor!  You didn’t really mean it like that.  Just like you didn’t mean to forget about punishing white people for abusing brown workers who are here illegally.  Heaven forbid we actually deal with the cause of the problem if it means white people have to suffer.  Much easier just to hate on the brown people and jail them indefinitely or shoot them with our helpful neighborhood watch groups.

Not citizenship, they did break multiple laws getting here,

As Caren points out, there’s nothing more American than sneaking into this country, making a living, saving money, and then applying for citizenship. What kind of anti-American are you that you’d be against that?

If there is no enforcement provision, then how can you claim that illegal immigrants would not be able to receive funds?

What a creative and original argument that no one has ever come up with before. Are you reading off a talking points script from the right wing, or are the messages being piped straight into your brain? Let’s face the facts—HR 3200 was designed out of the kindness of the Democrats’ hearts for Republican concerns to restrict illegal immigrants from benefiting from any sort of public option. And then what to the Republicans do? Demagogue the issue anyway, come up with a dishonest set of talking points, and then accuse the Democrats of lying when they point out what’s in the bill.  Why? Because they’re a bunch of dishonest barbarians.

The fact is simply that Republicans gain support and votes from ranting and raving against illegal immigrants, in the same way that politicians used to get support from opposing civil rights legislation. So when there’s a bill that doesn’t help illegal immigrants, you think those politicians are going to simply not talk about the illegal immigrant threat? Of course not! They’re going to demagogue the issue anyway, because that’s what keeps them in office and keeps the campaign donations flowing.

It’s great to see the media actually call these wingnuts on their b.s., finally!

I’m not surprised that Wilson has trouble understanding a plain statement of fact that is written in all capital letters.  If he can read the Bible which clearly says that abortion is not murder and still think that abortion is murder, then it’s not a stretch that he could read “NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS” and think it means the exact opposite.

I’m not sure if our concern trolls on this blog claim to be Christian, but many of the real-life concern trolls do.  It makes me wonder, would Jesus turn illegal immigrants away from a hospital or doctor’s office?  Compassionate conservatives my ass.

“No health care for illegals” translates directly to “I hate brown people.”

It also translates to “yes, I want to continue to have nearly my entire food supply chain handled by unvaccinated people who come to work sick and can’t get adequate treatment for TB, norovirus, influenza, or other highly contagious epidemic diseases”.

Ms Kate, you can’t expect conservatives to think about the consequences of their actions. Thinking is for libruls and faggorts! Real conservative heroes like Ronald Reagan NEVER thought!

Another point: migrant populations are, despite higher poverty, generally healthier than the general population - and younger too.  Due to the jobs they seek and their mobility, migrants are a select population.

Why don’t we collect their premiums, give them care, and use the extra profits for our own people?

What you all are overlooking here is the fact that 25% of US agricultural workers are illegal aliens.  Monsanta, ADM, Cargill…. they all actively recruit over the border and offer incentives to workers to come here.  They don’t want to hire U.S. citizens because they’d have to follow employment laws.  If they use illegal aliens, they can make them work without breaks, without protection from dangerous chemicals, and without providing any sort of workman’s comp.  If a worker gets injured, they can be quickly replaced.  The average wage is roughly $5/hr, no benefits.

Since Big Ag has a serious stranglehold on most of our reps in Congress, nothing will ever be done to stop illegal immigration.  Oh sure, they make enough noise to convince voters that they are “concerned” and trying to resolve the issue but Big Ag will make damn sure nothing ever happens to their unending supply of cheap, disposable labor.

Ms. Kate!

That’s why we need to irradiate ALL our food.  That way we don’t have to worry about pesky fecal matter rules or if our illegal workers are worked to death or any type of sanitary regulations b/c the radiation will kill the bad germy things at a cheaper cost to the corporations.

If you’re so concerned about your food, you should be buying organic anyway.  Yes, it costs more, but it costs more to make than shit-covered, illegal worker harvested food.  Anyone who really needs to avoid irradiation should pay for it, right?

Free market, baby!

BadKitty,

Are you suggesting that the real failure of our INS is to prosecute corporations for bringing in illegals?

Surely not.  We need to round up the brown people, not prosecute the white people out there using the free market to better themselves!

ZOMG!

After careful perusal of the US code I have discovered that there is no specific enforcement mechanism called out in the enabling legislation to prevent illegal aliens from benefiting from agricultural subsidies, federal disaster relief, the home mortgage tax deduction, the earned income tax credit, or low-interest SBA loans. Or even—O perfidious Bush and the immigrant-loving former republican congressional majority—the medicare part D prescription-drug benefit.

How could this be? I thought it was only health-care reform that contained this glaring pro-illegal-immigrant loophole, but now I find our nation’s laws are riddled with it. Who will rid us of this vile cancer upon the body politic? Won’t someone THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!?

I proposed national I.D. cards.  It’s really the only way to be sure that no illegal immigrants accidently receive any government services.

All U.S. citizens would be required be in possession of their I.D. at all times (all U.S. citizens, not just the brown ones).  Police and INS workers would be able to stop you in the street and ask for your I.D. at any time for no reason at all.  Failure to produce a valid I.D. would result in your immediate arrest. If you are sick or injured, EMT’s and all medical workers would be required to see your I.D. before any medical treatment could begin.  Admission to the emergency room would be allowed only with proper I.D.  Firefighters would be required to see your I.D. before attempting to extinguish any house fires.  We will post INS workers at all toll booths and all passengers will be required to show I.D. and the vehicle will be searched before they are allowed to pass. 

Perhaps this is what Cicero & his ilk are looking for?

Wow, I generally wish Olberman would go back to sportscasting (he was really good at that), but this is spot on.

“I defend Congressman Wilson’s right to incivility. A little incivility six years ago might have stopped the Iraq war. He can shout anything he wants, at anybody he wants, in any circumstances he wants.”

We’ve had way more problems in this country from giving the president deference than from heckling him from the house floor. While “Joe” Wilson is clearly just a stupid wingnut motivated by foolishness and anger, if we’re being charitable, and race hate if we are not, it would be a good thing for the country if more people reacted to presidential speeches the way he did.

The whole respect for the presidency thing just smacks of a desire for royalty and the belief that one has betters and that one should be ruled by them. The presidency is just a political office and I don’t see the need to respect its occupant any more than anyone else on the street. I respect Barack Obama because he’s clearly a smart, decent, hardworking guy (at least for a politician) and I have no respect for Addison Graves (heeheheehe) Wilson because he clearly isn’t. Whatever their current jobs are, that won’t change.

Badkitty:

Cards aren’t a good idea, because evildoers (ahem) could put someone in jeopardy by stealing or destroying their card. A series of indelible tattoos distributed over the entire body is clearly the only answer.

Paul, Badkitty - personally, I’m holding out for universal implantable RID chips.  Heck, they do it for dogs and kids already.  That way the Government’s GPS system could track us and make sure we weren’t doing anything like having sex with someone except for our Congressionally-approved spouses, weren’t dozing off in the break room during work and depriving our generous Corporate overlords of our undivided attention to our assigned work duties, or skipping out of services at our GOP-approved house of worship.

I’m not surprised the regular denizens here are not actually addressing the question.  If there is no enforcement provision, then how can you claim that illegal immigrants would not be able to receive funds?  That is what Pres. Obama has claimed, and in the one bill that has gotten the most attention as of late (HR3200), there is no way to enforce that provision.

Listen you freaking dipshit.

President Obama said that the bill has no provisions to provide benefits to illegal immigrants.  That no system can be created to prevent each and every last instance in which some people may be able to slip through the cracks and BREAK THE LAW does not mean that the law is meaningless.

Every city, county, and state in the United States has laws on their books which clearly state that murder is a crime.  There is absolutely no place in the United States in which one is legally allowed to commit murder.

And yet… thousands of people murder and thousands of people are murdered each and every single year in the United States.

Using your ridiculous “logic” - a term which really doesn’t apply to your batshit wingnutty paranoia - the murder laws that we have in every state in the nation are meaningless, because they fail to prevent every instance of murder from happening.

If you believe Confederate racist Joe Wilson’s screams that it’s a lie that healthcare reform won’t provide benefits to illegal immigrants, then you must also believe that our murder laws serve as a tacit endorsement of murder, since so many people disregard those laws and commit murder anyway.

You are a fucking crazy person, and that you are allowed to vote at all truly frightens the shit out of me.  You belondg in a goddamned padded cell, you raving lunatic.

I proposed national I.D. cards.  It’s really the only way to be sure that no illegal immigrants accidently receive any government services.

ID Cards nothin’.  We should all get implanted with RF chips.  Not only will hospitals be able to quickly identify our citizenship status (and maybe credit history and party affiliation to boot!) but our national security apparatus will be able to keep track of our movements in case we begin associating with too many furr’in’ers.

I do enjoy that whenever we talk about social services like health care or education or poverty assistance, the first thing out of a GOoPer’s mouth is an objection on the grounds that too many people might receive assistance.  They must absolutely hate groups like The Red Cross and the Salvation Army.  God knows how many illegals those folks have helped.  I hear they even help Canadians and the French!

Sorry—the fine would be three times the yearly salary of the manager who hired them per worker.  If you hired only one illegal worker, you might get off with a fine of $500,000 or so.  If you hired more, you pay more in fines.

I assume you meant $50,000 for one worker, not $500,000… I can’t imagine a whole lot of illegal immigrants coming here for under the table work are getting paid $133,333 per year to pick grapes in a Napa vineyard.

What pisses me off is peeps acting like Heath Care is any different then Police, Fire Departments, Health Inspectors, Food Inspectors etc.  All protect life.  All are needed to make sure that our country flourishes instead of being bogged down with sick or dead people.  Sick or dead people aren’t working.  They aren’t paying taxes.  They aren’t taking care of their kids or inventing stuff.  We need healthy workers making stuff and paying taxes. Besides it’s the freaking right thing to do.  I don’t understand how a Christian can claim that they are in anyway a good person if they fight health care that can save lives.  Just don’t freaking get it.

People, people. RFID chips are so easy to find and remove, unless they’re implanted inside a bone. And that wouldn’t work for infants and children.

Hmm. Maybe instead of cards/tattoos/chips we should just have surveillance cameras and sensors throughout the volume of the US, so that we can prove citizenship by providing a continous track of someone’s activities from the delivery room to the present…

Sorry—the fine would be three times the yearly salary of the manager who hired them per worker.  If you hired only one illegal worker, you might get off with a fine of $500,000 or so.  If you hired more, you pay more in fines.

I assume you meant $50,000 for one worker, not $500,000… I can’t imagine a whole lot of illegal immigrants coming here for under the table work are getting paid $133,333 per year to pick grapes in a Napa vineyard.

Read again, DTG.  The fine is three times the manager’s salary, not the migrant worker’s.  Although, if we’re talking about some ground-level foreman picking up day laborers at a gathering point and taking them to the vineyard in the back of his pickup, $133,333 is probably still an overestimation.  Then again, picking on that guy isn’t really fair, either.  Better to base the fines on the salary of someone who has some actual authority.

And why are ya’ll getting so upset at me (and others who point out the, ahem, inconvenient truths about the plan).

Because you have not read the bill.

H.R. 3200: Sec 152 - PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE.

(a) In General- Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.

Lest you think “without regard to personal characteristics” means that it includes illegals:

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

But let’s get back to section 152 and it’s second clause which ADDRESSES ENFORCEMENT by directing the Executive to issue regulations (which is how MOST legislation works since the Executive controls the Justice Department and, in this case, the Health and Human Services Department):

(b) Implementation- To implement the requirement set forth in subsection (a), the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall, not later than 18 months after the date of the enactment of this Act, promulgate such regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act are provided (whether directly or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements) without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.

This is a fake issue. A red herring. A LIE that preys upon your ignorance of the legislative process.

Hmm. Maybe instead of cards/tattoos/chips we should just have surveillance cameras and sensors throughout the volume of the US, so that we can prove citizenship by providing a continous track of someone’s activities from the delivery room to the present…

Oh sure.  We can follow the English model.  If we want to be freak’n socialist Europeans!

No, the American immigration problem requires a uniquely American solution.  Surely there’s a way to outsource this whole thing such that we achieve meager results at hundreds of billions of dollars in tax payer expense.

“Maybe instead of cards/tattoos/chips we should just have surveillance cameras and sensors throughout the volume of the US, so that we can prove citizenship by providing a continous track of someone’s activities from the delivery room to the present…”

I am TOTALLY down with this. I’ve always wanted to be under constant surveillance. That would rock so hard.

Wow. The troll pretends to be surprised that spending 1/3 the typical US per-capita level on care of a poor, geographically dispersed population with severe cultural barriers to care has bad outcomes.

Oh, and the article it quotes lies about healthcare spending comparison, unless by “on a par” it intends to mean “about 50% less than even the UK”.

Cicero, you so totally don’t want to go there.  There are a lot of complicating factors in the statistics on the health of Native Americans, including much higher rates of poverty, alcoholism and violence.  We could sit here and trade horror stories of misdiagnosed people with private insurance vs. government-provided health care all day.  Or I could sit here and recite the stories of the 20,000+ people who die every year because they lack health insurance.  Then you’ll lose the argument and go scrounge around to find another easily disproved position.  My bet is that you’re a racist schmuck who refuses to recognize that other people are people just like you.

Cicero-

To get your racist ass behind it, because people like you believe illegals should die.

And yes, that’s exactly what you believe, unless you believe that full enforcement to block illegals from all and any health care (which would be your full enforcement shit) will magically result in illegals getting free cancer-curing ponies.

What you are proposing the president add to his racist piece of shit in order to be considering “really fighting the illegals” is guaranteed death above and beyond the “hey, those brown criminals got the ER don’t they” is active denial of any and all care.

The bill’s section is titled no money paid, no money is paid.

So your issues with this racist pile of crap is that it doesn’t go far enough actively killing the “baddies”.

But you are too stupid to extrapolate the side-effects of your beliefs beyond “dey took ar jobs” and “muslim terrist mexican faggots ruinin’ america”.

It’s bad policy, I’d like it to be like every other first-world nation where legal medical services like abortion are covered, where free emergency health care is given to any regardless of citizenship and preventative care is available with light co-pays. Just because he’s my president doesn’t mean he’s a beacon of liberalism or that liberals agree with him down the line. But to pretend that this wasn’t entirely a ploy to alleviate the insane racist rantings of people like you would be disingenuous.

It’s bad because of you.

And you are still whining. It’s not enough until all the darkies are dead.

And that’s why you are an evil little shit.

Yep, gotta love that government provided health care.

I’m just shocked—shocked!—that it never occurred to you how entrenched brown-people-hatin’ (of exactly the kind you personally espouse) could affect the outcome of a health care program.

Quick on the draw with the wingnut talking points Cicero!  Good on ya you’re earning your pay.

Now, now, he might not be on Freedomworks payroll, but rather one of the legions of Know-Nothing suckers they depend upon to parrot their talking points for free. Either way, I’m glad to see that he’s obsessing over the “immigration” issue—that’s the one that’s eventually gonna implode the GOP.

It would seem from subsequent comments that he’s working some muddled middle ground between the cheap-labour neoCons and the nativist Know-Nothings:

Get control of all our borders, north, south, and coasts (and yes, spend the necessary money on border patrol and customs enforcement).

First of all, that’s an enormous amount of money, and an almost impossible logistical feat. Building the sort of fences and walls and barriers you’re discussing (bricks-n-mortar and virtual) over tens of thousands of miles as you describe is about as useful as re-building the Great Wall of China and Hadrian’s Wall—a wasteful fantasy.

Second, assuming that this somehow became the priority, the already over-whelmed, under-funded, and under-prioritised department of USCIS associated with granting green cards and citizenship would be even more useless than it currently is. But I suspect you’d see that part as more of a feature than a bug.

Increase the number of non-skilled labor permits for people to get in, its currently at, what, 5000 a year?  Increase that by at least 20 times.

Will these folks have an easier path to citizenship within their generation, or will you be following the cheap-labour neoCon line of a European-style, multi-generational gastarbeiter programme?

Interesting also to note also that your priority is on un-skilled workers, rather than skilled and educated ones who are in short supply (want proof? look who’s doing the grad-level teaching and research in STEM faculties, and who’s doing the R&D;at tech and biotech companies these days). I suspectyou have a big problem with not only the abuse of H1B and academic visas, but their very existence.

Yes, it’s sad that 25 years of effort by the GOP has made an already fundamentally dysfunctional public K-12 education system even more under-funded and even more polluted with religious fantasism and teach-to-the-test mediocrity, and it’s equally sad that conservative values have made an MBA or JD degree more desirable than an MS. But there you have it, and formalising the current system of cheap undocumented non-citizen un-skilled labour into cheap documented non-citizen un-skilled labour isn’t going to solve it.

If we’re committed to re-establishing America as a centre of innovation, you have to acknowledge that skilled and educated immigrants who want a stake in this country (i.e. citizenship) are historically a critical part of that formula.

I could get behind prohibitive fines, not so sure about jail time, but yes, enforcement on that end would be a big step in the right direction.

Why not jail time for the employers? The illegal immigrants who are caught violating the law get incarcerated and deported, why shouldn’t those who are caught violating the law by hiring them get similar punishment?

As to enforcement, having lived in a country with socialised medicine I can tell you that you don’t get your health card without providing serious documentation: things like passport, social security ID, birth certificate, driving license, utility bills, bank statements, etc., etc. This is especially true in a system with a public option, because (the fantasies of racist one-world yahoos aside) the government has no real economic incentive in allowing non-stakeholders into an already expensive system.

But perhaps you just want even more stringent enforcement than is present in other countries. Are you proposing, as others have joked about, citizenship barcode tattoos or subcutaneous RFID tags?

Look, Cicero, if you want to join a reality-based conversation, do yourself a favour: dump the useless xenophobia, the black-helicopter nightmare, and the blind worship of corporations. And learn something about how bills become law in the US (naturalised citizens usually know more about this than native-borns). Until then, no-one here is going to take you seriously. You might as well be the moron who demanded that government keep its hands off her Medicare.

To get your racist ass behind it, because people like you believe illegals should die.

I’d imagine that Cicero (and I’m thinking more Roaring ‘20s than Roman Republic) has an image of a flu virus knocking on the cell wall and politely asking “papers, please” to ensure it won’t infect a citizen. Also, gated exurbs and skin colour don’t provide much of a barrier to epidemics, either.

I’m not surprised that Wilson has trouble understanding a plain statement of fact that is written in all capital letters.  If he can read the Bible which clearly says that abortion is not murder and still think that abortion is murder, then it’s not a stretch that he could read “NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS” and think it means the exact opposite.
Comment #44: catgirl on 09/11 at 08:56 AM

You’re making one major mistake, catgirl.  You think that people like Wilson can or do read.  Remember, these are the types who also use “intellectual” as a derogatory term.

I assume you meant $50,000 for one worker, not $500,000… I can’t imagine a whole lot of illegal immigrants coming here for under the table work are getting paid $133,333 per year to pick grapes in a Napa vineyard.

You misread—it would be based on the hiring manager’s salary, not the illegal worker’s salary.  I have a feeling the managers doing the hiring at the vineyard are not getting the same sub-minimum wage that the workers are.

73-

Blasphemy, Jesus and proper white behavior like eating right and not engaging in you know “nudge, nudge” those types of dangerous activities are magical deflector shields against any and all badness.

Unless Jesus is testing your faith or it’s part of god’s plan or you just weren’t praying hard enough and you once listened to a Beatles CD.

But absent that, it’s like a goddamn superpower.

To suggest otherwise would be to put trust in evil atheist scientists and other liberal elites with their studies on epidemiology and shit. Can you think of anything gayer and more toxic to our natural American body fluids?

And we won’t even get started on treating them like people. I mean sure my dog may wear a shirt but that doesn’t mean we’d invite him to the dinner table. How was that racist? You people are just prejudiced against anyone to the right of Josef Stalin. Nigra-lovers the lot of ya.

/right-wing nut-case

Let us not forget, President Obama himself proposes to restrict illegal immigrants from having access to this new system.

No, he proposes restricting illegal immigrants from getting government subsidies to access the system.  If illegal immigrants want to spend their own money to buy health insurance, they can.  In fact, they do right now.

What are you proposing, that Blue Cross and Healthnet and all of the current insurance companies go through their rolls, verify the citizenship of all of their customers, and cancel the insurance of anyone who’s not a citizen?  Are there any other goods and services that you think only citizens should be allowed to buy?

Sorry, I didn’t realize that in order to share my opinion I had to type up a 200-page treatise parsing out every single tiny detail of the immigration policies I support.  I had the temerity to quickly type a short paragraph giving a general idea of my views.  Mea f***ing culpa.

Nah, you just showed where your priorities lie. Poker players call that a “tell,” and that’s why people here are making reasonable assumptions about some level of racism and xenophobia informing your opinion.

So yes, it is your fault, and you’re not clever enough by half to turn it around on Obama and us. Obama (and other liberals) support restrictions on public health insurance for undocumented aliens for sound economic reasons, tempered by an understanding (absent in conservative circles) that undocumented != non-existent when it comes to public health outcomes. You’re operating on other, less tenable, assumptions.

A fine example of a single-payer system established to provide heath care to the Native American population on reservations.

It’s a good thing that Native Americans have never been treated badly, cheated, or deprived of things they’ve been promised.  If they had been, then it wouldn’t be a surprise to hear that, as with everything else, they’re being treated badly, cheated, or deprived of healthcare that was promised.  But because Native Americans have always been treated with perfect courtesy, clearly the failure of their healthcare system is because government-run healthcare doesn’t work, not because of racism or the fact that they get less than one-third less than everyone else.

Thanks for clearing that up!

And, yes, he’s my president, too.  Don’t like it much, but its a fact.  However, I must admit I am tempted to couch my acceptance of him as my president in direct proportion of your (speaking generally here) acceptance of GWB as your president during his two terms.

Yes, I remember Democratic congresspeople heckling Bush from the chamber floor and calling him a liar when he was, y’know, actually making up phony pretexts for war in front of them.

Then I wake up and realise I’m not living in your cloud-cuckooland.

Beyond our votes, no-one really cares whether you or I as individuals have disdain for the occupant of the White House. What I do care about is the continual dumbing-down and coarsening of public discourse by public conservatives like Joe Wilson. Perhaps you long for the old days, when one Congressman could beat another to a bloody pulp with a wooden cane in the Senate chamber—I’m certain that many of your fellow conservatives felt that Wilson didn’t go far enough.

However, I must admit I am tempted to couch my acceptance of him as my president in direct proportion of your (speaking generally here) acceptance of GWB as your president during his two terms.

and there you have it. i love false equivalency.

there were serious questions about the legitimacy of gwb’s election in 2000. there was absolutely no question who won the 2008 presidential election. i’m not even going to get in to gwb’s record. i don’t need to.

i say this as a canadian. looking from the outside, gwb made your country look like some kind of tinpot dictatorship, rubber stamped by scotus in bush v. gore. now the republicans are making themselves a laughing stock (seriously—the school speech thing? wtf?)

on another point, i can’t understand—with swine flu on its way back, with a vengeance—why ANYONE would want any significant portion of the population walking around without proper healthcare. unless, as usual, the foot soldiers for the rethugs are more interested in preventing others from getting “something/anything that I DESERVE AND THEY DON’T!” than in actually making their own lives, and the lives of others, any better. they would rather risk a huge pandemic of a potentially fatal disease than let illegal immigrants get healthcare. well, i guess it would play neatly into their racist imaginings about where disease comes from…

I thought I would post this again for Cicero since he seems a little confused about what the bill actually says.  Let us know if you have any trouble sounding out the long words, big guy:

(b) Implementation- To implement the requirement set forth in subsection (a), the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall, not later than 18 months after the date of the enactment of this Act, promulgate such regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act are provided (whether directly or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements) without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.

Promulgate means “make.”  “Regulations” mean “rules.”  This means that the Secretary of Health and Human Services is charged with coming up with the rules since she probably has a slightly better idea of how the current system actually works than your random congresscritter.

Of course, you guys are all instant experts in everything you decide to pontificate on, so I wouldn’t be surprised to hear you say that Joe Wilson knows way more about our current healthcare system than the person who’s actually in charge of it.

now the republicans are making themselves a laughing stock (seriously—the school speech thing? wtf?)

The other day on NPR, even David Brooks characterised the people complaining about the school speech as “death-panel Republicans”—that is to say, crazy and ignorant. When one of the biggest apologists for the policies of the GOP is calling the teagbagger base nuts, it tells you what things have come to in the party

with a vengeance—why ANYONE would want any significant portion of the population walking around without proper healthcare. unless, as usual, the foot soldiers for the rethugs are more interested in preventing others from getting “something/anything that I DESERVE AND THEY DON’T!”

There’s also a larger corporate agenda at work regarding life-insurance futures (warning, ExiledOnline link—not a tea party over there). The GOP foot soldiers are, as always, marks in a big confidence game.

Promulgate means “make.” “Regulations” mean “rules.” This means that the Secretary of Health and Human Services is charged with coming up with the rules since she probably has a slightly better idea of how the current system actually works than your random congresscritter.

I’d like to see some explicit requirement for Congressional oversight over the regs and implementation, though. Of course, I said the same thing about the bank bailouts, when guys like Cicero were happy to let Paulson hand out money as he pleased (what’s good for Goldman Sachs is good for America, amirite?).

I’m just upset that the good name of Marcus Tullius Cicero is being besmirched by someone who thinks that a Wall Street Journal opinion piece counts as an unbiased source.

Cicero, this is funny. Because last week I spend an inordinate amount of time proving my citizenship status to get medical insurance for my kids.

I have been pg twice and have three kids (one set of twins). Because my insurance will not add newborn babies to the policy until they are a month old and have no pre-existings (even jaundice or a C-section birth can count against them and knock them off a policy) I have applied both pregnancies for medicaid. Since my income is above poverty level, I have to pay premiums when I qualify. (Around $360 per kid, per month. Thank god it is only temporary.)

I was asked to prove citizenship via a certified copy of a birth certificate or an actual passport (which would then be sent back to me) plus a picture state ID, plus a social security number, plus something like a utility bill to show residence. It also said you had to come in in person with these things, but if you had done so before, you could just send them in. Because I had done so before, I thought I could skip out on the showing up in person. But no. I was sent a letter and told to show up in person again with all the documentation. So I hauled self, kids and documents to the required office to do that.

This is pretty standard stuff when applying for any kind of government benefits. I’m just not sure what you think is going to happen that would indicate that this stuff is unenforceable. It is already built into the system. There is no need for a whole separate program to enforce it. It’s standard stuff.

I’d like to see some explicit requirement for Congressional oversight over the regs and implementation, though.

I could go either way on that.  You might be able to prevent an insurance company giveaway, but I don’t trust conservatives when it comes to entitlement programs.  I could see Congress putting so many loopholes on the regulations that the insurance companies basically get to continue doing what they’re doing now, only with stronger protection from the government, which would be the worst of both worlds.

The anti-immigration folks should get on their knees and thank god for (or something) for these undocumented workers because they are the only reason most of the anti-immigration wingnuts can afford to eat.  If agricultural workers were actually paid a living wage, food prices would soar.  If you can afford to buy groceries this week, thank an undocumented worker.

Oh, and by the way, Cicero. I’m an extremely Caucasian looking woman born in Iowa with an unmistakable Midwestern accent. My children are blond/blue eyed and are about as white as you can be.

My point is, I had to do all this stuff. But I’ve heard that they scrutinize brown people even harder. For example, I basically showed up and the woman took one look at us, eyeballed my documents and stamped her approval in a few seconds. I have seen them take brown people with Spanish accents back for interviews.

Is it possible that a few illegals get through the system? Sure, but it can’t possibly be easy.

The other day on NPR, even David Brooks characterised the people complaining about the school speech as “death-panel Republicans”—that is to say, crazy and ignorant.

you should have seen the canadian news anchors trying to cover this story with a straight face, and without actually using the words “temper tantrum”.

you should have seen the canadian news anchors trying to cover this story with a straight face, and without actually using the words “temper tantrum”.

The Canadian anchors have enough education to understand that, despite the fact that their MPs can heckle a prime minister during question time, in Western democratic tradition legislative representatives generally don’t heckle the head of state (whether it’s a monarch or president) during a speech. And they’re cosmopolitan enough to understand that not every democracy works just like theirs.

American MSM anchors, on the other hand, seem just plain flummoxed about how to respond to Joe Wilson’s unusual outburst.

Keith Olbermann is a two bit hack commentator and I would pay good money to punch him in the mouth…..What an absolute ASSCLOWN!!

I would like some even more outspoken versions of KO and Maddow…. They may be “Libtards” to most repubs, but to me they are a little too moderate still.

Keith Olbermann is a two bit hack commentator and I would pay good money to punch him in the mouth…..What an absolute ASSCLOWN!!

And with that cookie continues in the fine tradition of modern American conservative discourse when confronted with facts and reality.

@94-
Don’t Feed the TROLL COOKIES…..

@96- Gracchus
Me thinks The Cookie ain’t worth it.

I’d like to see some explicit requirement for Congressional oversight over the regs and implementation, though.

Uh-huh.  Because, of course, Congress has nothing better to do than micromanage simple regulatory powers of Executive functions?

The Canadian anchors have enough education to understand that, despite the fact that their MPs can heckle a prime minister during question time, in Western democratic tradition legislative representatives generally don’t heckle the head of state (whether it’s a monarch or president) during a speech. And they’re cosmopolitan enough to understand that not every democracy works just like theirs.

actually, i meant the school speech tantrum, but i guess with so much ridiculous behaviour going on, it does become hard to keep track.

i haven’t seen too much on local news about the wilson incident, but then i’ve been a little busy getting ready for my father-in-law’s wedding. which is also going to be a fiasco of epic proportions ...

Olbermann talks in fact and reality?? Are you serious….Have you watched one of his shows??  It’s an hour of pissing and moaning about how bad the republicans are and how everything that’s wrong in America is the republicans fault. Are you serious?? How much further to the left can you get….he’s so far left he’s off the fucking map!  If he’s the best the liberal left has to offer on commentators…..WOW…enjoy your time in the light you left wing fucknuts….2012 is all ours!

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1921713,00.html

Hmm..I guess they decided that the REALLY, REALLY wanted to be sure! (looks like an OBAMA fail to me)

It’s an hour of pissing and moaning about how bad the republicans are and how everything that’s wrong in America is the republicans fault.

Sucks that reality has a liberal bias, eh?

It doesn’t have to, you know.  Republicans could stop pretending that they can create reality by making shit up and insisting it’s the truth and actually deal with reality.  They could actually try to solve some of the problems in the country instead of just trying to make Obama’s presidency a failure.

As for Obama?  His numbers are still higher than Clinton’s at the same point.  Republicans’ are through the floor.

We don’t need to try make Obama’s presidency a failure….he’s doing a great of that all by himself! Bailouts….Cash for Clunkers…...Universal Healtcare…...Cap and Trade…..need I go on?

Dolt.

Providing healthcare for people and having incentives for more ecologically sound vehicles are bad things?

Shit. I knew there was a reason I couldn’t be a conservative, Besides, ya know, having a conscience and a heart.

And, erm, who started the bailouts after his administration put the economy in the shitter? Could have sworn it started with a “B”...

It’s an hour of pissing and moaning about how bad the republicans are and how everything that’s wrong in America is the republicans fault. Are you serious?? How much further to the left can you get….he’s so far left he’s off the fucking map!  If he’s the best the liberal left has to offer on commentators…..

from someone who probably masturbates with the dustjacket of an ann coulter “book”...

“Could have sworn it started with a “B”“

I suggest cookie carve a “B” into his face so he’ll remember it.  And backwards so he can read it in the mirror.

@94-
Don’t Feed the TROLL COOKIES…..
Comment #97: alcoolworld on 09/11 at 04:29 PM

Aww please, just oone - I’ll bake some REEEEAAAAALLLLL special ones, Exlax and all.

Oh please do go on, little troll #105,

here, I’ll even add to your list: Declines in economic activity slowed in the last two months, and contacts surveyed said they were cautiously optimistic for a recovery in the remainder of 2009, according to a Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago report.

And that article credited Cash for Clunkers in part.

from someone who probably masturbates with the dustjacket of an ann coulter “book”…
Comment #109: sophiefair on 09/12 at 12:57 AM

Let’s all wish the fuckwad some really deep paper cuts.