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Least surprising research results ever

Actually, there might be a slight reason to find this news surprising.  I think a lot of us live in liberal parts of the country where these attitudes are muted, so it might actually be surprising to find out that single women ages 25-35 are often painfully stigmatized, no doubt especially in more conservative areas.  The researchers at Texas Tech University interviewed 32 never-married women, and found that around age 25, their subjects began to face pretty ugly social stigma for not having snagged a husband yet.  The idea that women’s main and often sole source of validation comes from being picked by a man hasn’t gone away by a long shot in our culture. 

What I thought was most interesting about the study was that a lot of the pressure on single women to be ashamed of themselves and to feel desperate for validation comes in forms disguised as cute and harmless, so the women also feel unable to push back.  Family “jokes” making fun of them for being unpicked by some random guy, for instance.  Or the horrible tradition of the bouquet toss at weddings, a tradition that exists solely to make unmarried women feel bad about themselves.  There’s no way to win the bouquet toss situation.  If you don’t participate in the ritualistic shaming of the unmarried, you’re a spoilsport.  If you throw yourself into it, you’re a screeching, desperate harpy confirming every negative stereotype about women—-the big one being that they’re nothing without male validation, and will debase themselves to get it.  Women who choose to stand there and let the bouquet drop at their feet while others scramble for it are finding the closest thing to a way out, but they’re still going to be treated like they’re acting superior.  You can’t win.  Except by getting married and exempted from the ritual humiliation.*

This stuff is far from harmless.  When women are stigmatized far beyond what men can expect for not being married, that creates pressure for women to settle.  Sometimes, that pressure is pretty explicit. This means men can make higher demands on women in exchange for their validation of women. Sometimes a woman’s devalued position in a relationship merely means she does most of the housework and emotional work, and her sexual satisfaction is a secondary concern.  But in the worst case scenarios, culturally created female desperation can be used as leverage by domestic abusers to keep their victims in place.  Abusers are often fond of telling their victims that no one else will have them—-and in culture where a woman who has no man is a pariah, that threat can carry a lot of weight. 

I know it seems like a lot to suggest that things like the bouquet toss subtly embolden wife beaters.  And it’s true that any one “joke” or tradition that implies that there’s nothing worse for a woman to be than single would not in itself be harmful.  But when women get that message from all corners, many start to think they really should lower their standards.  And domestic abusers are willing to use every tool in the box.  Take, for instance, this judge who suggested to an abuser that he marry the victim so that she wouldn’t be required to testify against him.  He was able to convince both the abuser and his victim to marry.  Most of us have to ask why a woman would marry someone who beat her like that, and I think the above explains the reason why in part.  When you hear over and over that it’s horrible to be a single woman and you need a man to rescue/validate you with an offer of marriage—-and when your self-esteem is already torn up by an abuser—-then the offer of marriage and all the social status with it can be very tempting indeed.

*Though I will point out that you won’t escape without a blowout of humiliation.  The bachelor and bachelorette parties always seemed to me to be an opportunity for the soon-to-be-marrieds to be punished by their friends, who are either jealous or sick of all the wedding crap. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:55 PM • (141) Comments

“Or the horrible tradition of the bouquet toss at weddings, a tradition that exists solely to make unmarried women feel bad about themselves.”

I finally refused to get up for the boquet toss at a cousin’s wedding last spring.  I hadn’t thought about it beforehand, it just suddenly seemed even sillier than it used to.  And yeah, part of it was the feeling that it would be more humiliating to stand up there than to try to give excuses as to why I wasn’t.

I was expecting the family sitting at the table with me to say something, but I got zilch commnets.  Not sure why.

Comment #1: jennygadget  on  03/23  at  07:49 PM

No argument about the ritual humiliation for single women.  Being a guy, I only see the first hand the ritual humiliation of single guys (humiliating fixup dates, “single” tables, etc—which stigmatize single people in general) but have witnessed it second hand with single women friends.  Why put up with it? 

Generally, I don’t, anymore…  Instead of going to these events, I’ll take my newly married friends out for a nice dinner or the like, and make my excuses for these humiliating events.

Comment #2: James  on  03/23  at  07:53 PM

First link is borken…

Comment #3: Scott  on  03/23  at  07:59 PM

I have risked my health to avoid the bouquet toss by going outside with the smokers. It works and it’s also a good way to avoid loud mouthed relatives. At my own wedding, I announced that there would be no bouquet toss and received cheers and a standing ovation from every woman present (single, married and otherwise).

Comment #4: DC Fem  on  03/23  at  08:02 PM

First link’s broken.  Correct link.

Comment #5: sacundim  on  03/23  at  08:18 PM

It’s weird.  I never experienced the bouquet toss as humiliating because it never occurred to me that anyone considered it bad or pitiable to be a single woman.  It was only after I got engaged and had to endure all the fuss that goes along with that that it became clear to me that many people around me did in fact view my social worth differently once a man had officially chosen me. 

I would note that there is no way to really escape the humiliation (other than perhaps remaining single and oblivious as I was for so long).  As discussed on this site before, the marriage ritual itself can be profoundly humiliating in that it suggests that the man has bestowed the bride’s primary source of social validation (with due credit to Amanda for hitting the nail on the head on this point in another thread.)

Comment #6: Laurie  on  03/23  at  08:30 PM

I have to say, as a 33-year-old woman, I’ve been extremely lucky in that regard.  The only time I really hit against it was when I was at a gathering of Southern Baptists (I’m Pagan, so suffice to say, it was a bit awkward) and an old family friend in her 70’s waved me over and asked me how I was doing.  I start telling her about my job, my writing, and she’s like, “But are you MARRIED?”  I look at her funny and go, “What?”  “Are you MARR-IED???”  I chuckled and said no, I hadn’t found the right person yet.

Besides that, I hear that my little sister complains about me not being married behind my back.  But I don’t think it’s a coincidence that she married at 19, is divorcing at 20, and had an utterly miserable marriage (a very conservative marriage too!).  Misery loves company, apparently.

Comment #7: Foxling  on  03/23  at  08:34 PM

I think a lot depends on your demographics and what part of the country you are from.  In the northeast, I don’t think it is unusual for women to postpone marriage until their 30s.  And i don’t think most people think too much of it.

Comment #8: Laurie  on  03/23  at  08:36 PM

many people around me did in fact view my social worth differently once a man had officially chosen me.

Marriage (like children or careers) are usually taken as markers of adults (versus adolescent).  I’m 28, but not generally evaluated as a real adult because I’m unmarried, childless and in school (at least I no longer live with my parents!).

“Girls mature faster” and similar conventional wisdom no doubt influence women getting hit earlier with this stuff.  It’s really only in the last year or two that I’ve started to get explicit “Look Brian, it’s time for you to get married.” and the like.

Comment #9: Brian  on  03/23  at  08:41 PM

OK, I’m British 9where people generally marry much later than Amercians on average), not American and obviously there are cultural differences, but I’m happily single at 40, never married or wanted to get married and I don’t feel particularly socially stigmatized by being single in general, only somewhat disadvantaged financially-speaking, which is a whole ‘nother kettle of fish. No shit from family or workmates, no shit from the vast majority of people, really. Of course there’s the media glurge but I avoid women’s mags and other forms of vapiness like the plague so I’m pretty much insulated from such silliness. Mind you, there are more single people than ever with the ageing population and the high divorce rate that it’s hardly really unusual to be single.

There’s always been one exception though - newly-married women are often simply shocking in their naive zeal for their newfound legal status. They’re like earnest cult devotees, preaching the Joy of Marriage and You Really Should! and Why Don’t You Want To? and Never Mind, One Day You’ll Meet Someone Speshul and Be Happy Like Me, Dear! and Poor KillerRobot! etc etc. It’s painful. It’s really painful when you know the same woman’s husband was cheating on her as soon as the ink was dry on the marriage cert.

I’ve pretty much cast off friendships over this one - one ex-friend in particular become so insufferable I barely recognised the woman she used to be. The change started the day she got the engagement ring and turned into a Wedding Obsessive. I cut off all contact two months after the wedding (a lovely gift grab where she scorned my wedding gift ad called me ‘fat’) after she and her new husband visited me and spent an entire dinner basically telling me I didn’t know my own mind and couldn’t possibly be happy like I was and how essentially pitiful it was not to be Happy Like Them and Want a Family and so on. Never felt better about dropping a friend in my life.

Comment #10: killerrobot  on  03/23  at  08:42 PM

Brian,  I totally get that men also are pressured to marry.  And yeah, there is definitely a belief out there that you aren’t really grown up until you marry.  But when you do marry, you find that there is an assumption (which the wedding-industrial complex underscores)  that the bride must be so much more thrilled and enthusiastic about the whole thing.  The assumption is that it is HER big day because this event defines her in a way that it doesn’t define the groom.

Comment #11: Laurie  on  03/23  at  08:52 PM

My family is pretty awful at marriage so there is no pressure there, but my workplace is another story.  I am sick of being asked “so when are you going to get married?” and “but why not?” and “are you guys still not getting married?” 

I think I did go through a phase of thinking I wanted marriage but I think the older you get the less you care what other people think.

Comment #12: semi_factual  on  03/23  at  08:57 PM

What’s wrong with the bouquet toss?  Doesn’t its existence mean that for every wedding, there will be a gaggle of unwed/partnered men and women to participate?

I know you have a serious thing about the bouquet toss, but… I don’t see why it has to represent insufferable people.  It just seems to penalize those who pair up because some others go about it all wrong.

Yeah, I have my partner, but I’m always telling people they need to make themselves happy before love will come to them.

Comment #13: Crissa  on  03/23  at  08:58 PM

A lot this social validation/humiliation crap is another reason why we need to make gay marriage a priority. Legalize that everywhere, and I reckon we’ll see some of the pressure disappear, because marriage (though still a problematic type of union - everything is under kyriarchy) will not just be about heterosexual, cis men giving their sainted validation to us Vagina-Humans.

Another lovely pressure you can expect (as a young woman outside of the target age range for this research), is the constant concern trolling of acquaintances, relatives, and coworkers if you don’t have a boyfriend/aren’t known to be dating at that time. Or, on the flip side, concern if you’re hooking up and not having a “steady” relationship. People ask me if there’s something wrong all the damn time because I deliberately haven’t dated, hooked up or had a boyfriend in about five years, and I’ve turned down the few offers I’ve had. I’m simply not interested in the latter, have no desire to experience a date, though the hooking up may change I’m in no rush.  I’ve been asked if I’m gay, anti-men (thanks dad), troubled, sad, hiding something, have low self-esteem, or if I need therapy… Cheezus people are rude! My love life, or lack thereof, is not public property.

I’m not sure pressure on men or women is ever going to change - reproducing is a biological imperative, and it’s where a lot of this stems from.

I disagree. YMMV, but there are a lot of people who feel no need to reproduce, never have, and likely never will. The existence of the childfree movement is testimony to that. I think it’s more like people think reproducing is an imperative, something you absolutely have to do or you won’t have a legacy/be remembered/have someone to take care of you in your age, etcetera ad nauseam. The pressure to reproduce (or not to reproduce if you’re not the “right” kind of person) is very strongly and possibly entirely influenced by culture, especially as such things tend to fit the dominant social model of “rightness”.

Comment #14: Princess Rot  on  03/23  at  08:59 PM

I never felt especially pressured to get married or have kids (except by my mother-in-law) until it actually happened. Then, when people were falling all over themselves to congratulate me and tell me how much better off I was, and how my life was really starting now, it made me want to call off the wedding or give the kid up. No one ever made me feel like I wasn’t a person when I wasn’t a wife or a mom, but then once I was going to be, it was suddenly clear that lots of people had quietly thought that way and just not let me know.

Comment #15: Av0gadro  on  03/23  at  08:59 PM

Re the bouquet toss - I usually stand at the back and act bored.  It’s a lot easier to have predictable feminazi contempt for that sort of thing than to talk openly about the other humiliations of being a single woman over the age of 22.  I’d add that, in my liberal social enclave, the pressure tends to be more to be paired off and not so much to be married.  I get plenty of the Everyone Else Your Age Is Married With Multiple Kids, What’s Wrong With You bullshit from family back home, though.

I’d only note that men are under pressure to marry as well, and if a man goes long enough, he’s accused of being gay. 

I’m not sure this is as true for men - certainly the ages are very different.  A man has until his 40’s until people think it’s weird that he’s single, whereas I’ve been feeling this pressure from more conservative family members since around the time I graduated from college.  I mean, including open questions like, “why don’t you have a boyfriend?” from relatives I barely know.

It’s also never “she must be gay”, it’s “she must be broken” or “this defies the laws of physics”.

the constant concern trolling of acquaintances, relatives, and coworkers if you don’t have a boyfriend/aren’t known to be dating at that time.

Yes!  To be matched only by similar concern trolling if you have a casual partner but don’t seem to be infected with Ring Fever.  Several of my coworkers are completely freaked out that I don’t have plans to move in with my boyfriend of almost a year and that my behavior has pretty much not changed at all in the months since some dude took enough pity on me to openly admit we’re dating.

Comment #16: The Opoponax  on  03/23  at  09:32 PM

Doesn’t its existence mean that for every wedding, there will be a gaggle of unwed/partnered men and women to participate?

Do you really think that the only reason single people attend weddings is for the joy of participating in the bouquet or garter toss?  Like, really?

Comment #17: The Opoponax  on  03/23  at  09:34 PM

A lot this social validation/humiliation crap is another reason why we need to make gay marriage a priority. Legalize that everywhere, and I reckon we’ll see some of the pressure disappear, because marriage (though still a problematic type of union - everything is under kyriarchy) will not just be about heterosexual, cis men giving their sainted validation to us Vagina-Humans.

I wouldn’t bet on it.  As a denizen of Soviet Canuckistan, I ain’t seen anything like that of late.  Maybe on a generational timescale, but so many other processes operate on a generational timescale that it’d be impossible to tease out.  Now, that lack of marriage for gay people (where such lacks occur) effectively prevents them from being socially regarded as full adults is a problem for a number of reasons, but it won’t push away from the “married=adult” thinking.  If anything, it probably goes the other way, since marriage is then a path to adulthood for an even larger piece of the population, which means alternative routes will be perceived as less necessary. 

Laurie, you’re certainly right that weddings aren’t remotely symmetric by gender.  There’re certainly dynamics there I’ve ignored/missed/whatnot.  But the general mechanism of gaining social standing/approval from relationships in this fashion is described in very similar terms for women relating to men as I experience it as a man relating to women (there are some small differences - rather than getting picked, it’s a question of whether you can prove yourself worthy in the usual narrative, the devalued position in a relationship is more explicitly sexual in nature I think, though in usual gender roles women are the main/only source of love/affection, but I think I’m supposed to deny I need/want those things?), so the suggest that assaulting misogyny, or gender roles generally, is likely to affect this much seems pretty suspect.  Certainly Princess Rot’s suggestion that same-sex marriage is likely to put more than tiny dents in it rings pretty false to me.

Comment #18: Brian  on  03/23  at  09:40 PM

Ugh, I despise the bouquet toss.  I have never, and will never participate in it.
I really believe that 99 out of 100 single women loathe it, and I think married women force the continuance of the tradition as a way to humiliate and lord it over the single women they’re secretly jealous of. 
A friend of mine who refused to participate once was actually physically dragged/pushed out onto the floor by the other women and held in place so she couldn’t leave.  I saw this on the wedding video, and it made me want to throw up, but everyone else thought it was hilarious. 
Luckily, no one I know would dare pull that shit with me.  I sit out every bouquet toss, and I’ve earned the reputation of being a huge sourpuss and party pooper at weddings, but I don’t care.  In fact, if people would stop inviting me I would be beyond thrilled.

Comment #19: nico  on  03/23  at  09:47 PM

We just didn’t have a bouquet or garter toss (no one’s reaching up my dress in public unless they’re a medic) and didn’t bring it up. We did have a raging dance party at the reception, which was the part of the wedding we thought of most as ours. They say it’s supposed to be ‘your’ day, but in fact, it’s often the event that brings out some of the most bizarre and insistent demands your relatives will put on you in adulthood.

Anyway, excellent points all around, as usual.

Comment #20: Natasha Chart  on  03/23  at  09:50 PM

I’m not sure pressure on men or women is ever going to change - reproducing is a biological imperative, and it’s where a lot of this stems from.

Huh?  If it’s such a biological imperative to reproduce then why all the pressure, shaming, punishments and rewards to make people actually DO it?  Sex itself may be a biological imperative, but reproduction not so much, and marriage not at all.

Comment #21: nico  on  03/23  at  09:56 PM

Doesn’t its existence mean that for every wedding, there will be a gaggle of unwed/partnered men and women to participate?
Do you really think that the only reason single people attend weddings is for the joy of participating in the bouquet or garter toss?  Like, really?

How does that even follow?  And why have a tradition centered around singles if no one is expected to be single?

I just think it’s a stupid thing to focus on, when there are far more blatant or insidious things out there.  I really have my doubts that the bouquet toss has any really pressure compared to things one encounters in daily life.

However, in also lack of surprise research results, another study finds High Fructose Corn Syrup (at half the caloric density, even!) as Sucrose leads to greatly measurable weight gain in rats of those on the (higher-calorie!) Sucrose diet.

Comment #22: Crissa  on  03/23  at  10:06 PM

Funny, I’ve always figured that the fact that humans have culture is what de-emphasizes the biological imperative to reproduce.  Like we don’t necessarily need to, because we have the concept of family and shared/group identity.  I don’t really need to have kids because I know that at least one of my siblings probably will, or other people in my family will, or other likeminded folks who I would identify with will.  I also have other ways of contributing to society.  Our low infant mortality rates and long life spans probably help matters, as well.

If you’re a prairie dog or an antelope or something, you probably don’t have that stuff going for you, so you’re stuck with the biological imperative to reproduce.

Comment #23: The Opoponax  on  03/23  at  10:07 PM

One of the reasons for the asymmetric pressure, of course, is the whole patriarchal assumption that women are useful only as baby-making machines. So if you’re not partnered by your eggs’ sell-by date, you might as ell not have lived at all. Or something like that.

Guys have a similar kind of pressure, but spread out over a longer period, because even at an advanced age they can (it’s assumed) find some young woman to wed and impregnate. And since the sexual revolution there hasn’t been the default assumption that an unmarried man over the age of 40 had to be gay…

But the thing about this pressure is not just how it screws up relationship stuff for women, it’s also how it contributes to making them feel shitty about the rest of their lives. Doesn’t matter if you cured cancer, flew on the space shuttle, reinvented the intertubes, the question at family gatherings is still whether there’s a guy in the picture. (My longago ex’s parents: confused when her first and second books were published, pleased and relieved when she got tenure, thoroughly beaming when she got married…)

Comment #24: paul  on  03/23  at  10:07 PM

How does that even follow?

You’re the one who said it, not me.

Also, I’ve been to weddings where very few of the guests are single, and they still do those rituals, and they’re even more humiliating.  The presence of large amounts of single wedding guests is neither here nor there.

Comment #25: The Opoponax  on  03/23  at  10:09 PM

I don’t know that the demographic is entirely by region, but I do know that, as I approached graduating from college with honors with a sweet opportunity to tour the world and maybe work/live in another country, my Okie Aunt (whom I love) could only reply “gotta fella yet?”

My husband has remarked that he is treated differently by some now that he’s “gone respectable” and married. I think standing next to brash, loudmouthed me makes him look good by comparison. wink

Comment #26: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/23  at  10:13 PM

ugh, i find that even though i live in a liberal oasis, i still get some pressure about not being married to my boyfriend of six years, mostly from random people i interact with in some type of service setting, e.g., my personal trainer, who asks me almost every time i go in when i’m getting married, seeming to completely forget that the answer every previous time has been “probably never.”  it’s like she can’t wrap her head around it.  part of me wants to just tell her to shut up about it already and find another topic of conversation, but i don’t want her to think i’m a crazy bitch, so i never do. 

my family is pretty low key about this kind of stuff, but my dad will basically make my sister ask me when i’m getting married every couple of years or so, presumably because he knows deep down that it’s a ridiculous question and is to embarrassed to ask it himself.  i assume in another decade or so they’ll get the message.

Comment #27: chareth cutestory  on  03/23  at  10:32 PM

I had crazy pressure growing up. At church (I was raised LDS) they started giving us lectures about the men we were going to marry from about the time I was twelve, and of course, before that we’re still singing songs about how one day we want to go to the temple. On one memorable occasion, we were supposed to make up a list of traits we wanted in a partner…and I was chastised because even though I put down the main teacher-satisfying traits of “holds the priesthood, sense of humor, will be a good father,” I ALSO had “will play video games with me, will go puddle jumping, etc”. I was given a lecture about choosing temporal traits over spiritual ones, but never once did it occur to the folks lecturing that I might not get married at all.

At college, which happened to be a church-owned private college, there was an ongoing joke that the school motto was “Ring by Spring or your money back!” I have pictures of me and my roommates “tattoing” each other with a Ring-Busters logo—a giant no sign with a ring in the middle. We also claimed to be proud “Sweet Spirits”—a sweet spirit is Mormondom’s answer to “nice personality” as in “well, she’s no looker, but her spirit is sweet.” I think we were already fed up with the notion that we were there to get hooked up with a man. (Incidentally, I was one of the first “engaged”, but broke it off and am now the only unmarried one at the ripe old age of 33.)

My mother can barely go a phone call without asking me about it. We have magnets on the fridge to mark the special occasions where Mom DOESN’T ask. If she goes a whole phone call without mentioning it, I move a magnet down. If she asks, the magnets get reset. I think it’s finally sinking in for her to Please Stop Asking/Mentioning.  (She’s fond of noting how long I’ve been with an SO, and then ask me if I’m thinking of settling down. I think I AM settled down.)

It’s for all these reasons that we plan on skibbling off to Vegas and only telling people a day or so before hand. No fuss, no stupid traditions.

Comment #28: PixelFish  on  03/23  at  10:55 PM

Not sure why, but this post made me think of these two songs:

3 minutes in Chrsitine Lavin (internalizing the damage of that attitude?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nxtwafpcPY

Mary Chapin Carpenter from the late ‘80’s
http://popup.lala.com/popup/504684655008738660

Yeah, guess the study could have just been spent in some folk/rock venues or coffee houses- and the beverages would have been better.

Comment #29: phylosopher  on  03/23  at  10:56 PM

Soviet Canuckistan

Bar none, my favorite new phrase!

Comment #30: Smartpatrol  on  03/23  at  11:11 PM

Umm, Chareth, you are paying your trainer for physical fitness advice not marital advice. Tell her to shut up about your personal life or you will find someone else to work your abs. Sometimes you are well within your rights to act like “a crazy bitch” (your words, not mine). The umpteenth time that someone asks you “when are you getting married?” heads the list of times when it is perfectly acceptable to go smooth off on someone.

Comment #31: DC Fem  on  03/23  at  11:18 PM

I’m an unmarried 41 year old and the years from 25 to 35 were the absolute worst, with coworkers and near strangers feeling entitled to weigh in on my (apparently dwindling) marital prospects and ticking baybee clock.  My lack of a husband they’d chalk up to being too picky until I let them know I had no intention of having children.  Responses to that came in two basic categories.  Patronizing:  “Someday you’ll meet the right guy and change your mind.”  Offended:  “I hope you die alone in a house full of cats you selfish fucking feminazi.”  Granted, the former happened far more often than the latter and the latter was rarely verbalized so overtly.  Usually it was more of a slight change in facial expression indicating that I might as well have announced I planned to set the baby Jesus on fire on the way to the martini bar.

But once I hit 35, no one seemed to care anymore.  I mean, people inquire, but they’re not that interested in my personal life now that my expiration date has passed.  Which is fine with me.

Comment #32: DonnaDiva  on  03/23  at  11:30 PM

They say it’s supposed to be ‘your’ day, but in fact, it’s often the event that brings out some of the most bizarre and insistent demands your relatives will put on you in adulthood.

Seriously. 

Somewhat off topic, but I remember when I got married and there was all the talk about how it was “our day” (translation:  “MY” day)  and how we should have the wedding ceremony/reception that we wanted and to hell with everyone else.  Except that actions speak louder than words and it was strongly implied that there were certain traditions that would be included, no matter what.  Now, since I did everything the way I was supposed to and found a man and got married right after college (and, luckily, that has worked out really well for me so far, although I wouldn’t recommend it to many others, since I recognize the luck involved there), I was young and stupid and went along with quite a few things just because “that’s what you did.”  But I remember distinctly allowing my uncle to DJ the reception because he was highly offended when we didn’t ask him to do so, thinking it would be nice to have him enjoy being a guest and not have to work (he did weddings and school dances as a part time job back home) and then having him basically do whatever the hell he wanted regarding things like bouquet toss, garter toss, and the tacky, stupid money dance that we had specifically insisted Would Not Happen.  And there was no socially graceful way to get out of any of that crap either.  I’m still livid about it, almost 12 years later.

Comment #33: ks  on  03/23  at  11:52 PM

DC fem, you’re absolutely right and i don’t know why i care.  i would say overcoming the training to be a “nice girl” at all times (a combination of sexism and southernism, i guess) is one of the hardest things for me to do as a feminist.  i also have a particular empathy for people in service industry jobs who don’t make much money (this is 24 hour fitness so it’s not like she’s making bank training celebrities or anything), so it takes a lot for me to call out a waiter or a DMV employee or whatever; i guess that extends to fitness instructors as well.

Comment #34: chareth cutestory  on  03/23  at  11:54 PM

How about the single ladies who get dragged to the toss and end up getting hit in the face with the bouquet because they aren’t paying attention? Because uh, I hope there is more than one. And while in my enclaves I don’t feel too much pressure, I think it is peripherally there, the “so who is in your life??” stuff. And I can only imagine it getting worse as a I pass 30. Even I get pangs of “and then I’ll be… wait… HOW OLD??” but I am so, so, so glad I didn’t buy into the “settling” stuff. I certainly wish there wasn’t so much of a emphasis on every relationship working out into marriage until death, because I think I made some bad decisions based on such notions, but right now am pretty happily in hooking up stages. Thank crumbs.

Comment #35: Tenya  on  03/23  at  11:56 PM

First link fixed.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  12:00 AM

I know you have a serious thing about the bouquet toss, but… I don’t see why it has to represent insufferable people.

For the same reason that the letters c-a-t represent “cat”.  Because as much as you want them to mean “dog”, that’s not how it’s read in our culture.

The bouquet toss is about establishing that women are desperate to marry, because it’s their sole source of validation as human beings.  The garter toss is a disingenuous attempt to equalize it.  It doesn’t really; it’s sexualized to make it clear that unlike those stupid bitches, men don’t really need that kind of validation.

You wouldn’t deny the symbolism if someone threw a wad of money at someone and enjoyed watching them scramble in desperation.  Why does it change if it’s a symbolic chance at a wedding?

I’m not “penalizing” people who pair up.  One can have a wedding without mocking the singles, you know.  You don’t have to have the bouquet toss.

In case you wish to continue denying the symbolism, I refer you to the research.  The women interviewed are quite aware of how the whole thing is a joke about them.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  12:02 AM

My husband has remarked that he is treated differently by some now that he’s “gone respectable” and married.

It is the default assumption in our society that marriage makes us men more cautious, and therefore more dependable and reliable.

I was given a lecture about choosing temporal traits over spiritual ones, but never once did it occur to the folks lecturing that I might not get married at all.

Just as in my mothers’ class of Notre Dame High School, 1954, half the class got married after they graduated, it was the only way open to them to satisfy their curiosity as to what sex was all about.

Comment #38: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  03/24  at  12:10 AM

Usually it was more of a slight change in facial expression indicating that I might as well have announced I planned to set the baby Jesus on fire on the way to the martini bar.

Bwahaha!  I’m very familiar with that look. smile

Comment #39: nico  on  03/24  at  12:18 AM

And why have a tradition centered around singles if no one is expected to be single?

Ah, I see.  You’re under the mistaken impression that the only way to stigmatize someone is to exclude them.  That’s not true.  Creating a spectacle out of someone in order to pressure them to change (or just for the hell of it) is by far the preferred method of bullying.  (Think of the movie “Carrie”.)  I realize that most people who participate don’t realize it’s a form of bullying, but it is.  Being a single woman is considered a status that needs to be changed.  And the forms of pressure to get women to prioritize “not being single” over “make yourself happy” include making a spectacle of single women.  Weddings are a perfect occasion to do this, because everyone’s already in the mindset to pity single women, instead of be happy for them that they haven’t settled for assholes and abusers.

Comment #40: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  12:29 AM

Perhaps the most offensive punishment of single people is the insistence that they belong at the kids table at gatherings.  I am a fully grown adult, even by the standards of the car rental industry.  I have chosen not to spawn.  It should not be my responsibility to dodge handfuls of macaroni flung in the direction of my clothing by the offspring of others, while holding dinner conversations about Spongebob.

Comment #41: libdevil  on  03/24  at  12:44 AM

The last wedding I went to had so many single girls (my cousin getting married was 25. Met her future husband on the first day of college at age 18. Makes me sick) that nobody hounded me into the bouquet toss. However, there were so few single men that my cousin’s cousin, who’s probably over 40, very shy, and (well, odds are really high that he’s) gay, got hounded and hounded into doing it. Good lord, people.

I feel the pain of not fitting in with the world because no mayun wants me every effing day. I hate it. I don’t want to feel like this. I was engaged once and it’s obviously a good thing that I didn’t go through with it because god knows he can’t take care of himself worth a damn. But gee, even if I was married to a slacker, my relatives would finally consider me An Adult and Worthy and Allowed To Exist because some man, even a lame one, chose me. Most of my relatives get married by or meet their future spouses at 18, so I’ve been the BIG loser since then. I’ve been sat down and told that if I don’t get married soon, I’ll be too independent to get married. (To which I said that it wasn’t under my control and there’s not a damn thing I can do about it.) And of course I’m one of very few permanently single people in my office, so I’ve got nothing to contribute to the interminable domestic conversations about husbands/children.

I don’t even want to get married, I don’t think I’d like being treated like a wife, but I feel like a 5-year-old who didn’t get invited to the party that everyone else in my class is going to.

Oh well, I’m nearly 32 and I’ll expire in a few years and nobody will care any more.

Man, it helps that my shrink didn’t get married until she was 51. She’s also Jewish, so guess how much shit she got. She told me that breaking into tears every time you get maritally nagged shuts people up, but I can’t stomach it.

Comment #42: Jennifer  on  03/24  at  12:47 AM

I love my Hubby, and our relationship is great.  But I hate the fact that it seems like we bought into the whole “Oh, you have to be married” thing to be an adult.  There is a change in the way people act around you.  And there is TONS of pressure to have a wedding that “they” want you to have.

No one believes us when we say “Our relationship is exactly the same before we got married”.  Equal-ish video gaming habits ARE an important part of a relationships, as is feelings about dancing in public.  For all the “work” that relationships are supposed to be I put more effort into getting a job than my relationship. 

*sigh* Families are not worth this.

Comment #43: Antigone  on  03/24  at  01:14 AM

But I don’t think it’s a coincidence that she married at 19, is divorcing at 20, and had an utterly miserable marriage (a very conservative marriage too!).

I wonder if a short miserable marriage is not one way to have your cake and eat it too? You establish that at least one man wanted you enough to tie the knot, but you made a mistake and now you’re free. You’ve been there, done that, got the t-shirt, etc. You’ve tried living with a man and it sucks.

I can see Amanda’s point about the oppressiveness of the bouquet toss. But weddings are profoundly patriarchal events—to avoid all the patriarchy-saturated goodness, deconstruct them entirely to make the point the wedding will not be conventional. Don’t have a public ceremony, don’t get a dress or a tuxedo. Have a party, feast, drink, and dance.

But I enjoy the corny, oppressive parts—no skin off my ass, right? I wonder if adding every single female irrespective of age would take the curse off? Or just have it for the set of females who still play with Barbies?

Comment #44: Hector B.  on  03/24  at  01:28 AM

But I hate the fact that it seems like we bought into the whole “Oh, you have to be married” thing to be an adult.

I worked with a 32 year old PhD who still got the red envelope at Chinese New Year. He explained as long as he was single he would be considered a child.

Comment #45: Hector B.  on  03/24  at  01:30 AM

On the other hand, the bouquet and garter toss thing worked out perfect for me.  The night I decided to propose to my girlfriend was the day her friend got married and she was the maid of honor.  My girlfriend caught the bouquet, and I (just barely) caught the garter.  As I had not purchased a ring yet, when we got home later that night, I used the garter as a substitute ring and popped the question.  She said yes and last June had our 10th wedding anniversary.

Interestingly, when planning our own wedding, I wanted to skip the bouquet and garter toss thing, but my wife insisted on it.

Comment #46: Tommykey  on  03/24  at  01:30 AM

Rereading my post, I see an idea that might take the curse off: Have every woman participate, irrespective of marital status. Explain, “You can always do better. Now’s your chance to roll the dice again.” Still offensive, but now annoys the hell out of everybody.

Comment #47: Hector B.  on  03/24  at  01:40 AM

I’d only note that men are under pressure to marry as well, and if a man goes long enough, he’s accused of being gay.

A man can get away with waiting longer, because (as has been pointed out REPEATEDLY) nobody is making cracks about his biological clock or how women all want to marry younger men. Marriage is something men are supposed to do to Be Responsible, and allow some dumb marriage-crazed bitch to drag him to the altar, which he will allow as a big favor to her.

There’s a reason that “spinster” is a gendered term, y’know.

Comment #48: mythago  on  03/24  at  01:55 AM

The bachelor and bachelorette parties always seemed to me to be an opportunity for the soon-to-be-marrieds to be punished by their friends, who are either jealous or sick of all the wedding crap.

Having seen an awful lot of bachelor parties from the point of view of being the entertainment, I have to tell you that there are rather many of them that are not much more than a homosocial, sexist wake for the groom’s supposed freedom to be a man. I’ve seen bachelor parties held the night before the wedding (can you think of anything more passive-aggressively hostile than showing up at your wedding with a hangover?). I’ve also seen plenty that consisted of guys ‘punishing’ the groom by ragging on his bride-to-be and women in general, you know, they’re all bitches and poor Bob here is being dragged kicking and screaming to the altar after which he will spend the rest of his life pussywhipped. I didn’t at all get the sense that Bob’s buddies were “jealous” or “sick of all the wedding crap” because, as you well know, weddings are supposed to be the bride’s domain and problem cuz you know how those females are about weddings.

Comment #49: mythago  on  03/24  at  02:01 AM

Ah, on a YMMV note, every wedding I’ve gone to, it seems like two or three men really want the garter, and no one except girls under 12 try to catch the bouquet. Not that it invalidates the idea it embarrasses the women; rather, I think it underscores both that fact, and how much our culture ignores how deeply some men want marriage.

I’ve also noticed that grown men love playing with virtual paper dolls, aka avatars.

Comment #50: Samantha Vimes  on  03/24  at  02:34 AM

...I never wanted to get the bouquet because it meant I’d get married next. I wanted to get the bouquet because it has pretty flowers in it.

Comment #51: Mandolin  on  03/24  at  02:36 AM

Hector B.,

You might be on to something.  For example, my sister clings to her married name like a liferaft.  Perhaps even though she is getting a divorce, the fact that she was married at all, even for a short time, is a form of validation in her mind. 

Going back to the original post, now that I think about it, I can think of at least one occasion where my aunts were indirectly pressuring my brother and I to have kids.  We were at a family gathering and an aunt turned to my father and asked in front of us, “Don’t you want grandkids?”  This is why my Dad is so great.  He immediately responded, “Hell no!  Because the day I have grandkids I’ll be officially old.”  I really think my parents help shield me from a lot of the pressure.

Comment #52: Foxling  on  03/24  at  02:36 AM

I have never been to a wedding with a bouquet toss.  Or even aware of one involving someone I know.  I guess I had heard of it…and isn’t there some thing with a garter?  The only non-vows-and-rings wedding tradition I have the foggiest idea about is glass stomping.

Comment #53: lonespark  on  03/24  at  02:44 AM

The garter is the male version of the bouquet: whoever catches it marries next. It’s harder to get guys out for it. And when another cousin of mine caught it, he pocketed the thing and pretended not to have it.

Yes, he was next to marry, but man, he shouldn’t have.

Comment #54: Jennifer  on  03/24  at  03:07 AM

When I go to weddings with my longtime (non-marital) male partner, I get coaxed to join the spinster toss.  What’s up with that?  I never know what to say.  I think of myself as paired off, no longer in the race.  I *really* don’t want to get married.  But I guess it comes across as rude to deny the whole matrimonial obsession at a wedding.  Even though I don’t want to rub my beliefs in anyone’s face.  Amanda’s right, you can’t win.

Comment #55: Unree  on  03/24  at  03:47 AM

Amanda:  That’s a point I hadn’t considered.  But yeah, I’m well aware of the rest, I just hadn’t thought of this as one of them, since there seems to be an activity to bully every conceivable group at a wedding.

Alas, I’ll have to concede that you’re probably right and I was naive here.

Even though I really wish that it was okay to bring shy people into the center.  I’m great alone, but even I have learned that having friends and social connections is important in life.  Being social is something you can learn to fake, even though it’s really tough for some.  Been there.

Like I said, I spend alot of time consoling kids as they come into my social circle online; teaching them how to make themselves happy first, and stop worrying about these social pressures battered into them.

Comment #56: Crissa  on  03/24  at  04:27 AM

Even though I really wish that it was okay to bring shy people into the center.

Oh, dear god, please don’t.  Because that is in no way related to what immediately followed that sentence in your comment.  Having a fun social group of your own to spend time with is in no way similar to being put on the spot in a semi-public gathering.  Acting as if it is only makes introverts even less likely to make the effort to be social.

(and why the fuck would learning how to fake being social be a good thing for anything other than utilitarian reasons?)

Comment #57: jennygadget  on  03/24  at  06:54 AM

Ten years ago, when I was a whopping 27, a supervisor at work told me that since I was clearly, given my age, not getting married, I should consider that I might be happier if I just went ahead and had a child as a single mother.  I’m still single and still childless, but I’m at a different job with a different supervisor and am indeed much happier.

Comment #58: Deborah  on  03/24  at  07:35 AM

Upon reflection, I realize that the one reason I didn’t personally, subjectively experience a sense of humiliation during the one or two bouquet tosses I participated in is that I was so young at the time, and therefore before the age when people would start implying that I should be desperate.  It really is quite obvious that it is a ritual designed to humiliate.

As for the garter toss, I thought the idea was that the man who catches it will be the next one to get laid.  Men are only interested in what they can get for free, amirite? (If it is about being the first man to marry, the implication is still that men want to get married for the sex.)

Comment #59: Laurie  on  03/24  at  07:56 AM

Foxling at 53,

It is interesting.  I think in the long-run, my mother-in-law agrees that her husband divorcing her was a net positive.  (At the time, it wasn’t so great because he abandoned her with two young kids and no means of support because she was a housewife and he just decided to stop working.)  She is really proud (as she should be) of getting herself back on her feet and putting herself and her kids through college, and seems to enjoy the independent life she has led for nearly 3 decades now.  But man, she still wears her wedding ring and god help you if you don’t call her “Mrs.”

Comment #60: Laurie  on  03/24  at  08:01 AM

Hasn’t anyone heard of the old ” convinient trip to the bathroom” trick for avoiding the bouquet toss? I’ve used it to great effect- just stand closeish to the door when you think the “event” is imminent, and slip out before anyone notices.

Comment #61: lemur  on  03/24  at  09:03 AM

nico wrote:

I sit out every bouquet toss, and I’ve earned the reputation of being a huge sourpuss and party pooper at weddings, but I don’t care.  In fact, if people would stop inviting me I would be beyond thrilled.

So, why do you go?  If you’ve earned such a reputation, it’s obvious that you’ve been at enough of them to know that you’re miserable at other people’s weddings, and other people know it.

Comment #62: Dana  on  03/24  at  09:08 AM

Hey, Dana proves the point.  Even as everyone is talking about the oppression, he adds to it, assuming single women don’t enjoy weddings because they’re jealous bitches that aren’t validated yet. 

Personally, I love weddings.  I dig a party.  I love watching people drink and dance and eat.  I just don’t love the ritual humiliation of single women.  If we could get rid of that, it’d be great!

Comment #63: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  09:31 AM

To what Hector said: I’ve been to at least one wedding where the bride should have thrown the bouquet up and caught it herself, because the very next wedding in the family and social circle was….hers.  To another man.

Comment #64: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  09:32 AM

mythago @50, I was digressing, and so I scooped in the ball-and-chain misogyny of bachelor parties with the “all that wedding crap”.  I agree, though.  Bachelor parties don’t have to be misogynist, but they often are. To be clear, I totally see that the traditional bachelor party is to humiliate the groom for being snagged by some evil bitch and giving up his “freedom”, and the traditional bachelorette party is about a woman’s single friends giving her hell because they’re supposedly jealous.

Comment #65: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  09:34 AM

Samantha @51: I’ve seen men enjoy scrambling for the garter, but the fact that it’s a sexualized ritual, and the implied story is that you’re eager to get your dick wet—-at a lot of weddings, they even play hokey old-fashioned burlesque music—-it’s not so much a humiliation thing, but a stud thing.  Plus, guys get the friendly competition cover.  Women rarely nudge each other in the ribs and slap each other on the back afterwards, indicating universal acknowledgment that it’s just a game.

When I go to weddings with my longtime (non-marital) male partner, I get coaxed to join the spinster toss.

Yep, half the women forced to do it at the last wedding I was at did not consider themselves single in the slightest.  I am not single.  I have a partner.  I’ve been single.  It’s different.  But without that wedding validation, it doesn’t count in the patriarchal traditions.  Which is enough to show that it’s a ritualized humiliation, honestly.  It’s become not just a way to bully the unpartnered, but to bully people who choose different lifestyles altogether.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  09:38 AM

53 and 61, absolutely. 

My husband decided he didn’t want to be be married to me at least 5 years ago.  I was devastated at the time because I really loved being married, and being married to him.  But you know, time and space does really give one a different view of things.  We’ve been separated for three years now, but we still aren’t divorced.  Why?  I figure since it was his bright idea he can run around and do all the paperwork (and pay for it).  He hasn’t made it a priority.

So - still married, I still get all the legal goodies.  Health insurance and social status being at the top of the list.  I don’t even live in the same country just at the moment, so I don’t have to deal with him face to face.  Further, as a gringa living in South America, I wield my wedding band like a defense shield, and, it works really well.  Obviously, I could do that anyway and lie, but it tickles me that it is - still - true. 

I also know that, even now, I’m reluctant to sever the connection permanently even beyond the tangible stuff the legal relationship still offers.  And I’m reluctant because I still feel a sense of security knowing I was ‘chosen’ (however poorly) and that I still have this tiny handhold in the cis het adult world of respectability.  I understand the kyriarchy is at work here, but that doesn’t change emotions involved at all.

Comment #67: nell  on  03/24  at  09:47 AM

Yeah, even though I live in a fairly progressive area and have a other single women my age and older in the family, I’ve still felt it, too. I’ve been guilty in the past of not correcting people when they assumed I was divorced instead of never-married, but I’ve come to embrace the word “spinster” as something positive.

I think it’s very telling just how much airtime on the “women’s” cable networks are devoted to wedding shows.

Comment #68: ttintagel  on  03/24  at  09:53 AM

No one makes beaucoup money off of someone continuing to live happily ever after,  There’s got to be a big change as an excuse.

Comment #69: phylosopher  on  03/24  at  10:13 AM

Seeing as my mid-20s daughter’s work place has several people who have kids, have been with their partners for years and are not married, the pressure at work isn’t there for marriage (relationships, some though).  From my mother, “Has B found a nice guy yet” is a pretty regular question, to which I usually reply it’s not really my business unless she wants to tell me (which she does, sometimes, and I do NOT pass on).  Once again, fairly liberal progressive environment for us, much less so for my Mom, and really different publicly acknowledged attitudes between the two.

Comment #70: helen w. h.  on  03/24  at  10:26 AM

I worked with a 32 year old PhD who still got the red envelope at Chinese New Year. He explained as long as he was single he would be considered a child.

Yeah.  One thing I’ve noticed is that if anyone in the Sino-sphere(Hong Kong, China, Taiwan), especially those of Gen X or older aren’t married by 30, many will feel something is amiss about him/her.  Heard it a lot from Chinese grad students who wondered why I’m not married at my age or gossip about how something’s amiss about their late 20’s+ classmates/friends. 

Sometimes, the gossip when directed at me gets so irritating I’ve often acted as the snarky asshole by commenting on how childish it was that they were still relying on their parents to defray all of their educational/living expenses despite being married and past undergrad which hurts coming from me, especially when they know my parents never had to pay one red cent for my undergrad or grad school expenses.  rolleyes

Fortunately, my older relatives don’t really care on that score as nearly all my older cousins got married in their late 30s/early 40s.  The only one I know of who married in her early 20s ended up getting divorced and happily remarried.

Comment #71: exholt  on  03/24  at  10:29 AM

So, why do you go?  If you’ve earned such a reputation, it’s obvious that you’ve been at enough of them to know that you’re miserable at other people’s weddings, and other people know it.

I’m sure she goes because, despite that reputation, she’s still invited and because she genuinely likes the people inviting her and doesn’t want to hurt them. Plus it’s usually a good party, and it’s is a pleasure to behold people you like enjoying themselves.

At this point friends and family know I’m an atheist. They none-the-less invite me to various religious ceremonies, which I gladly attend despite having disdain for all the mumbo-jumbo. I’m not at the event to participate in the “Oh God, thou art so awesome” stuff any more than nico is there for the bouquet toss, and while I’m not ostentatious about sitting out the religious garbage or the garter tosses everyone knows I do and no-one cares.

It’s called being a decent and mature adult, Dana, whether one is single or not, religious or not (though it’s clear your requirements are a lot more limited). And it has nothing to do with participating in or enjoying particular stupid or superstitious rituals—I’d be glad if no-one felt pressured to indulge in them, but they’re really beside the point.

Comment #72: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  10:33 AM

When women are stigmatized far beyond what men can expect for not being married, that creates pressure for women to settle.

Minor quibble: I’d change ‘far beyond’ to “a bit beyond’.  Men get the whole (not married) = (loser, pervert, deviant, weirdo, or worse).  This sort of nonsense for men does however start later in our lives, than it starts for women.

Comment #73: Richard Goblin  on  03/24  at  10:38 AM

Richard, I’ll concede that when there’s piles of wedding porn aimed at men.  As it is, the one wedding site I’ve seen for men goes out of its way to make it clear that while you, the soon-to-be groom, are happy to be married, you don’t take this wedding stuff too seriously, since you still have your balls, and weddings are girl stuff, amiriteguys?

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  10:47 AM

A lot this social validation/humiliation crap is another reason why we need to make gay marriage a priority. Legalize that everywhere, and I reckon we’ll see some of the pressure disappear, because marriage (though still a problematic type of union - everything is under kyriarchy) will not just be about heterosexual, cis men giving their sainted validation to us Vagina-Humans.

I disagree.  Think what will happen is pressure will be brought to bear on gays and lesbians who do not marry same sex partners.  The whole pressure to get married goes beyond just the “a woman must have a man for validation” - there is a both/and problem here. 

Take gay men for instance.  Our society (even in our liberal regions) is more accepting of the “respectable gays” who dress nice and tend to have one (ostensible and public) partner than “those gays” who are openly promiscuous.

Comment #75: Richard Goblin  on  03/24  at  10:49 AM

I actually haven’t felt much pressure to prove that some man can tolerate me enough to buy me an expensive trinket.  I’m 24 and I’ve been out of college for two years.  I wonder if I’ll start getting pressured within the next year?  My mom is really cool about it so I don’t expect to hear anything from her.  I think she might even be disappointed if I got married too early.  If my friends or coworkers start hassling me, I will politely tell them exactly what they can do with their concern.

Comment #76: bananacat  on  03/24  at  10:52 AM

Richard Goblin, I disagree.  Getting married is a really good deal for men, not so great for women.  So while I would not attack a (straight) man for happening to be unmarried—for this purpose I’m putting aside conscientious objectors like Amanda and me, who are very few in number among men—I would genuinely wonder why he isn’t doing something that’s so advantageous for him. 

In other words, women get more stigmatized for doing something good for themselves, and that’s doubly unfair.

Comment #77: Unree  on  03/24  at  11:02 AM

Richard, I’ll concede that when there’s piles of wedding porn aimed at men.

The stigmatization takes a different form and starts later in our lives, but is quite intense.  We don’t get “wedding porn”.  What men get is looked down upon for being losers, immature, and deviants.  Allow me to explain:

The “loser” trope: we’ve all seen the cinematic portrayal of the pathetic middle-aged schmuck who lives alone because he lacks the worth to attract a partner.  I’m in my mid thirties and when people (even good liberals) find out I’m not married, I get that look of pity.  I was once even told that I should move to Massachusetts eventually so that I can get married.  Good grief! 

The “immature” trope: around our mid-thirties, men who are not married but have obvious success in the romantic or sexual arena (especially with multiple partners) can’t be fit into the loser trope.  Instead, we are “immature” and need to “settle down” (operative word here being “settle”), and get serious.  There is also the insinuation that, despite our outward appearance of success, we are still losers deep down because we lack the capacity to make an emotional commitment to a single partner.  Poor us!  We’ll never find fulfillment.  Were just losers who get laid.

The “deviant” trope:  Not married?  You must be a pedophile, sex offender, weirdo, eccentric, crazy, emotional cripple, criminal or an even worse sort of deviant.  Single man in his mid thirties buying groceries?  Hide the children - he’s probably a chickenhawk!  Otherwise, wouldn’t a man that age be able to attract and keep a woman?  After all, women are in need of validation to be complete.  And if no woman is willing to settle for this guy he must be a deviant!  (This also indicates that he’s a loser who is unworthy of having a partner.  And that immature guy?  He’s a deviant too - probably a sex pervert and an emotional cripple.  Even if he is getting laid.)

So yeah, men don’t have to put up with the bouquet toss and the wedding-industrial complex.  But single men in their mid-thirties and beyond take a lot of shit for their relationship status.  Just because it’s more muted doesn’t make it any friendlier.

the soon-to-be groom, are happy to be married, you don’t take this wedding stuff too seriously, since you still have your balls, and weddings are girl stuff, amiriteguys?

It’s a double wammy for both sexes.  Men are expected to not take an interest.  Dare to take an interest in your wedding, and you’re a pussy-whipped fag (or a big fruity nellie).  In other words, the behavioral expectations of men with respect to weddings are the exact opposite of women.  If women don’t turn into bridezilla they must be tomboys who need to grow up (or lesbians who need to “turn the butch” down).  Patriarchal behavioral expectations hurt everyone (even if they hurt men less).

Comment #78: Richard Goblin  on  03/24  at  11:18 AM

One of my brothers got married when I was in the middle of college.  I participated in the bouquet toss to be polite, but I certainly did not want to get married at that age.  So the bouquet actually hit me and fell to the floor because I didn’t want it.  Nobody else went for it, either out of politeness to me or because they didn’t want it either.  So after a few awkward moments I picked it up and gave it to my other brother’s girlfriend because I knew that both she and my brother wanted to get engaged anyway.  They did actually get engaged and married a few months later and they wisely chose to not even bother with the bouquet toss.

Comment #79: bananacat  on  03/24  at  11:18 AM

Richard Goblin, I disagree.  Getting married is a really good deal for men, not so great for women.

Unree:

What do you disagree with precisely?  Getting married can be a good deal for men - and certainly a better deal for men than women.  My point is that there are very strong stigmas aimed at men who dare to defy the social expectation that they get married.  Do you disagree with this?  If so, I guess my experience just doesn’t count, eh?

Comment #80: Richard Goblin  on  03/24  at  11:22 AM

I grew up in a small, mostly conservative place. I wasn’t shamed for not being married by 25, but at about 23 former HS classmates started rumors that I was gay because I didn’t have a boyfriend and didn’t have children.

Fortunately, I had plenty of female friends who weren’t married and/or married late in life so I had plenty of support.

Comment #81: Olivia  on  03/24  at  11:45 AM

Any stigma directed at men on this matter is highly, highly regional. What Richard Goblin is saying might be true if you are a single man in the suburbs and far away from a metro area, but I don’t encounter it. 

Granted, I look young for my age, but I don’t face that single man stigma and neither do my single friends who are around my same age or older. Not saying it doesn’t exist, just that there are plenty of places where people won’t blink twice about it.

Of course, I long ago gave up having any stake in being perceived as someone else’s conception of what “adult” was, so to the degree that the stigma exists, I brush it off.

In conservative immigrant families, there is no way you can win the game: marry too early, and you are being irresponsible and rebelling against your parents and doing things before you’re ready and able to make good judgments. Wait too long and you’re being too picky and unwilling to grow up.

Comment #82: Tyro  on  03/24  at  11:51 AM

Plus, men get off so easy with this one: basically, being an unmarried professional allows the community to view you as responsibly waiting until you are done with school/training/associate status until you are on your feet. Try to pull that off as an unmarried woman and you’re “wasting your precious time.”

Also, as far as an unmarried man being perceived as “eccentric”—what about those of us who actually are eccentric? I mean, where’s the problem here? It isn’t as though you’re following the “normal path,” so why not accept that your neighbors might actually be right about your eccentricity and embrace it?

Comment #83: Tyro  on  03/24  at  12:04 PM

One thing that strikes me re: the different pressures on single women vs single men is the degree to which women’s relationship status is treated like public property.

I’m amazed at the number of stories I’ve read (here and elsewhere) in which - not just casual acquaintances or nosey co-workers - but full on total strangers feel free to opine to a woman about her marital status or “commiserate” about her singlehood or offer advice for getting a partner.

That kind of invasive behavior doesn’t seem to happen to men. At most they mighty get grief from their families.

Comment #84: Nobody  on  03/24  at  12:15 PM

Umm…that’s “might” not “mighty”.

Comment #85: Nobody  on  03/24  at  12:16 PM

Up here in urban Canada (as liberal an oasis as you will find), the pressure doesn’t seem to be letting up. (Yet.)  I’ll never forget the day my oldest friend’s younger sister got married, at 30.  The sister looks like a grinning psychopath in all of her wedding photos.  I mean, you can see the pressure to marry she lived with up until that day bleeding out from between her teeth. It doesn’t even look like her—it’s mania, not bliss. Those photos made me incredibly sad, and they could be turned into posters for this essay.

Comment #86: Ranylt  on  03/24  at  12:24 PM

Men get the whole (not married) = (loser, pervert, deviant, weirdo, or worse).  This sort of nonsense for men does however start later in our lives, than it starts for women.

True, but who really cares? The small group of people whose opinion of you actually matters are operating more on your own reputation more than those societal norms about marriage. Certainly those people can be influenced by traditional culture (e.g. the red New Year’s envelopes mentioned above), but at that point you might as well laugh at the absurdity of a 32-year-old PhD being treated like a child, or (to use exholt’s example) a married couple living on their parents’ dime being considered “mature.”

My family has what I call a high tolerance for eccentricity, so there’s just not a lot of pressure thrown my way. There might be some low-intensity worrying or joking around, but in the end they understand that I’m an adult who’s happy and self-reliant. People who know me certainly don’t worry that I’m lonely or sexually deprived, don’t hesitate about entrusting me with the care of their kids, and it would be hard for anyone who knows me to claim I’m “immature” given my accomplishments and how I carry myself.

Sure, I get a little gentle kidding about having too much fun to settle down, or having secret kids in all the cities where I’ve lived, but nothing stigmatising. The worst I’ve gotten is some worrying from my mom about lack of constant companionship, but an honest conversation usually resolves it—we make exceptions for moms, after all.

What’s also helped is the fact that divorce is common in my family, and the fact that so many of my contemporaries who got hitched mainly due to pressure and expectations ended up either divorced or trapped in miserable marriages. So marriage is seen in my family for what it is: a high-risk crapshoot.

As much as some people tend to stigmatise single men as they get older, it’s offset to a certain extent because men aren’t perceived as having a biological clock or a “sell-by date.” Also, society tends to focus on men in terms of career accomplishments rather than parenting accomplishments.

What I will acknowledge as a real stigma, though I haven’t run into it personally, is that certain industries expect senior executives to get married and have kids if they expect promotion in the company. The unstated goals are conformity with the corporate culture and binding the breadwinner closer to the corporation, lest his new family lose the lifestyle to which they’ve become accustomed. That’s a nasty and all-too common situation.

Comment #87: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  12:31 PM

No one believes us when we say “Our relationship is exactly the same before we got married”.

Sing it (and: sigh).

Comment #88: Ranylt  on  03/24  at  12:32 PM

I didn’t feel that getting married changed how my wife and I related to each other, but what changed enormously was how people reacted to us.

At our wedding, we had a bouquet and garter toss, and the bouquet went right to my wife’s friend J., who was already engaged (kind of by prior agreement). My gay cousin caught the garter. Heh.

There’s definitely pressure on unmarried men to pair up, but as Richard Goblin and others have said, it doesn’t start until much later than it does for women, probably not before 30 at the earliest.

Comment #89: Norsecats  on  03/24  at  12:35 PM

I’m 28 and single (have been for a while). Last year a family friend pulled me aside and told me that I should go into therapy. Because clearly the fact that I can’t even snag a date means I’m broken. I’m still angry over that.

I’ve only had one serious relationship, and every once in a while I think back to it and wonder if I shouldn’t have broken it off. But I can’t seem to muster any regret in that regard - I’d much rather be single than settle.

Comment #90: rivki  on  03/24  at  12:53 PM

Wait, so this study involved talking to 32 women?  32?!  That’s not research—that’s a cocktail party.

Comment #91: Anony Mouse  on  03/24  at  01:01 PM

Any stigma directed at men on this matter is highly, highly regional. What Richard Goblin is saying might be true if you are a single man in the suburbs and far away from a metro area, but I don’t encounter it. 

...

Plus, men get off so easy with this one: basically, being an unmarried professional allows the community to view you as responsibly waiting until you are done with school/training/associate status until you are on your feet.

Tyro:

Is DC a metro enough area for you?  BTW, I’m a mid-thirties unmarried professional in my mid thirties.  I’m not in training and I am established in my practice and “on my feet.”

Oh, and I didn’t mean good ‘eccentric’ as in eccentric genius.  I meant weird uncle you should stay away from eccentric.  But where you really fall short is:

Of course, I long ago gave up having any stake in being perceived as someone else’s conception of what “adult” was, so to the degree that the stigma exists, I brush it off.

I’m calling you out on this libertarian, rugged individualist bullshit.  People are social animals and so other peoples perceptions matter.  Period.  Full stop.  Social narratives matter.  If we could all just “brush it off” we wouldn’t need feminism and critical theory because we could all just exist in our little libertarian paradise.

Last but not least:

Not saying it doesn’t exist,

Ah the old “I’m not saying it doesn’t exist (but it really doesn’t)” trick.  Right up there with “can’t you take a joke” when someone makes a racist or sexist remark.

Comment #92: Richard Goblin  on  03/24  at  01:22 PM

Unree:

What do you disagree with precisely?

You’re right, I wasn’t too clear.  I got mealymouthed because I was approaching saying something that you could interpret as offensive to you personally.  Let me be blunter:  It is slightly perverse for a straight man not to be married if he can, because marriage is a ticket to privilege for straight men.  If he can find a wife, he should take one.  If he doesn’t have one, maybe that’s because he can’t find one. 

Whereas for a woman, avoiding marriage makes a lot of sense.  It’s nice not to be a second-class citizen inside your own relationship.  The main reasons to marry, for a woman, are access to the favored gender’s paycheck and (in the U.S.) health insurance, plus of course the social prestige of dodging the patriarchy’s loser label.  A woman will pay a price for those goodies.  (That’s how I see it anyway.  MRAs obsessed with sperm-stealers and child-support moochers will take the opposite view.)

I was focusing on the unfairness of shaming and stigmatizing a woman more than a man for making a rational decision.  Stigmatizing a man, though wrong, is more likely to have a basis in his reality.

Comment #93: Unree  on  03/24  at  01:33 PM

True, but who really cares?

Gracchus:

Well, we all do as a matter of fact.  People are social animals.  The perceptions of others matter because they affect our interactions with others.  If someone is perceived as lesser, they will be treated as lesser.  But you know this already.  This is why you would not say “true, but who cares” to Amanda’s main article.  “True, but who cares” is a response rooted in rugged individualism, and carries for me a connotation that a “real man” doesn’t care what others think.

I don’t want to be a “real man” thank you very much.  It’s a social expectation that is at direct odds with our reality as social beings.  Thus, we often use the term ‘toxic masculinity’ to describe it.

Moreover, the pressure brought to bear against women and men to marry is pernicious precisely because “marriage is [...] a high-risk crapshoot.”  Pressuring people into this high risk crapshoot quite simply sucks.

There might be some low-intensity worrying or joking around,

It’s just a joke, right?  I guess I should get a better sense of humor.  Where have I heard that line before?

As much as some people tend to stigmatise single men as they get older, it’s offset [...]

Well, as long as it’s offset I guess that makes it all OK.  I’ll try that one in court some time.  “Sure he beat her, your honor, but its offset by the fact that he paid her credit card bills.”

Comment #94: Richard Goblin  on  03/24  at  01:39 PM

Richard-

I can totally believe that there is a stigma for a guy not being married.  If I want to look at what pressures and stigmas there are, I simply look at movies and the “He was a ladies man who thought he had it all until SHE came into his life” pair-up movies.

Though, as it’s been said before, this does come later in life.  This is important.  A guy in his thirties is much better at knowing who he is and what he wants than a woman in her 20s, or a girl in her teens.  Social pressure when you’re 30 sucks.  Social pressure when you’re a teenager and just barely figuring things out is worse.

Comment #95: Antigone  on  03/24  at  01:47 PM

Let me be blunter:  It is slightly perverse for a straight man not to be married if he can, because marriage is a ticket to privilege for straight men.  If he can find a wife, he should take one.

And if a man wants to have multiple sex partners he should cheat on his spouse?  I should work at a big law firm and make the big bucks instead of working at legal aid?  There is more to life than financial gain - there is also living honestly with integrity.  I’ll take fulfillment over gain any day.

Comment #96: Richard Goblin  on  03/24  at  01:50 PM

Well, we all do as a matter of fact.  People are social animals. The perceptions of others matter because they affect our interactions with others.

The real question is, do those other people themselves, as individuals, matter? This isn’t about gender or ideology, it’s about making distinctions between the very small group of people whose opinions matter in our lives, and the very large group of people whose opinions we don’t give a hang about.

And as we get older, we learn that most of the people in that very large group really don’t care about us, either. And we come to terms with the differing opinions of those who continue to matter.

The exception, of course, is when those opinions and social narratives veer, as they often do, into political action and public policy. At that point, I’m right there pushing back.

“True, but who cares” is a response rooted in rugged individualism, and carries for me a connotation that a “real man” doesn’t care what others think.

You may want to examine why it carries that connotation for you. For me, it’s gender-neutral: a person who’s comfortable in her own skin and has the privilege to brush off a societal narrative can also simultaneously acknowledge its pernicious effect on those who are less self-confident and/or less privileged, and do their part in undermining it.

It’s just a joke, right?  I guess I should get a better sense of humor.  Where have I heard that line before?

In the case described I look to intent when assessing whether a joke is malicious or not. Given that I know and care about the people in question, I’m able to easily judge that intent.

I also don’t give people I know free passes when they make sexist or racist comments—I don’t do it in a self-righteous way, but I let them know that such comments are the province of the Know-Nothings and right-wing fantasists we’re all opposed to.

Well, as long as it’s offset I guess that makes it all OK.

Actually, my point is that it doesn’t make it OK, because women don’t get the benefit of that offset at any age.

Comment #97: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  02:07 PM

Is DC a metro enough area for you?  BTW, I’m a mid-thirties unmarried professional in my mid thirties.  I’m not in training and I am established in my practice and “on my feet.”

Me too! And no one gives me funny looks at the grocery store, and I have a good social circle of other young professionals who don’t stigmatize each other’s romantic choices. Marrying young is not as universal a phenomenon among urban professionals as it is elsewhere. As I said, I don’t see things as having a significant stigma for men, particular at an age as young as one’s 30s.

Comment #98: Tyro  on  03/24  at  02:14 PM

Oh, and I didn’t mean good ‘eccentric’ as in eccentric genius.  I meant weird uncle you should stay away from eccentric.

I’m sure that I’m considered one of the eccentric uncles in my family. But no-one tells the kids to stay away, because while eccentric may be odd and weird and geeky, those aren’t considered de facto bad things. Except, of course, amongst judgmental conformist pricks, but it’s best that one avoids their company in any case.

While these things go in cycles, for almost a generation “eccentric” has been trending as positive in North American popular culture. And for post-Boomer parents, there tend to be more pressing reasons to ask their kids to avoid a particular relative.

Comment #99: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  02:14 PM

This isn’t about gender or ideology, it’s about making distinctions between the very small group of people whose opinions matter in our lives, and the very large group of people whose opinions we don’t give a hang about.

I disagree.  It’s about the sum total of our interactions with all people and how the social narratives determine those interactions in part.  It’s about the hiring committee, it’s about colleagues, its about family, and it’s even about the way you get treated at the checkout counter.

And as we get older, we learn that most of the people in that very large group really don’t care about us, either. And we come to terms with the differing opinions of those who continue to matter.

As we get older we come to better realize that we are not rugged individuals on our individual islands.  Rather, we come to understand that pervasive attitudes and narratives held by people we will never interact with in any more than a perfunctory way gather strength from the sheer numbers of people that hold them.  And this strength will affect the interactions with the people who do matter to you.  Thus the personal is the political.

For me, it’s gender-neutral: a person who’s comfortable in her own skin and has the privilege to brush off a societal narrative can also simultaneously acknowledge its pernicious effect on those who are less self-confident and/or less privileged, and do their part in undermining it.

Being comfortable in one’s own skin does not neutralize social stigma.  Being a confident woman does not neutralize the sexist attitudes of the members of a hiring committee who prefer a man for the job.  Moreover, challenging a social norm is energy consuming no matter how confident you may be in your own skin.

In the case described I look to intent when assessing whether a joke is malicious or not.

Perhaps, but your experience is not universal.  Moreover the mere fact that the joke can be made and that the joke is universally understood in our culture is itself evidence of an accepted social narrative that is pernicious and must be undermined.

Actually, my point is that it doesn’t make it OK, because women don’t get the benefit of that offset at any age.

This is a non-sequitur.  Why even mention the offset unless you are offering it as mitigation or justification? 

Let’s not engage in the oppression Olympics here.  The patriarchy primarily hurts women, but it is also hurting men.  We need to understand that the patriarchy is the common enemy.

Comment #100: Richard Goblin  on  03/24  at  02:36 PM

I disagree.  It’s about the sum total of our interactions with all people and how the social narratives determine those interactions in part.  It’s about the hiring committee, it’s about colleagues, its about family, and it’s even about the way you get treated at the checkout counter.

Both family and the hiring committee matter, and I touched on both. Life’s too short to give a hang what the person at the checkout counter thinks of your single status (unless she’s attractive and flirting, of course).

As we get older we come to better realize that we are not rugged individuals on our individual islands.

Indeed. I’m just not as concerned as you about what people on a far distant island think about my personal choices. Unless, of course, they’ve mustered together some coercive power with the intent of invading and occupying the island where I and my friends and family live.

Being comfortable in one’s own skin does not neutralize social stigma.

On a personal level, it certainly does. There are grey areas, like the hiring committee you mention, although there are many companies that prefer unmarried executives to married ones—it’s not a good situation, but executives and educated professionals have the privilege of options.

Moreover, challenging a social norm is energy consuming no matter how confident you may be in your own skin.

Never said it wasn’t. But again, on a personal and situational level, one has to decide how much energy is worth investing in challenging a social norm.

Perhaps, but your experience is not universal.

Nor is yours. I’m willing to acknowledge that some people’s family situations ensure that every joke is fraught with intent to hurt and attack. I’m sure you can acknowledge that for others it’s different.

This is a non-sequitur.  Why even mention the offset unless you are offering it as mitigation or justification?

I mention it because the owner of this feminist blog and other commenters are discussing the different ways this patriarchal narrative plays out in the context of gender. Someone offered the accurate observation that men often get the same crap as women, just at a later age; I added that even there they get a certain amount of offset by dint of their age. Are you arguing that the offset doesn’t exist? Or that it isn’t one of the factors that enables this crappy narrative?

The patriarchy primarily hurts women, but it is also hurting men.  We need to understand that the patriarchy is the common enemy.

I don’t see anyone arguing much differently.

Comment #101: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  03:03 PM

did yet another thread that was discussing an issue from the femme pov just turn into a “what about the menz?” thread?

sigh.

Comment #102: kodiak  on  03/24  at  03:04 PM

I have to agree with Richard on this one.  I have no doubt that single men experience the stigma he describes, and that such stigmatization should be criticized every bit as much as the stigma placed on women.  We are social creatures and cultural pressures matter very much.

In a different time and place, my father-in-law (the one who eventually abandoned his wife and young kids) married at the tender age of 21.  I once commented to him how young he was.  He said, “Well, back then, you had to get married at that age.  If you waited too much longer, people thought there was something wrong with you.”  That would have been in a working class northeastern community in the mid-60s.

That said,  the stigma is different in kind and in its effects, and probably in degree and how widespread it is.

Comment #103: Laurie  on  03/24  at  03:14 PM

did yet another thread that was discussing an issue from the femme pov just turn into a “what about the menz?” thread?

Not really. Richard Goblin summed up very nicely in his last graf at #101 the reason why the experiences of men as well as women are being discussed in regard to this marriage narrative. As Amanda is fond of saying, the patriarchy hurts everyone.

Comment #104: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  03:23 PM

Kodiak: I was just thinking that.

Richard: do make a “the patriarchy hurts men” blog. I will read it, enjoy it, etc. But right now ... you’re kind of off-topic.

I’m pretty sure everyone here already knows that this is an issue that affects both genders ... it’s just that it affects women earlier, for longer, and worse. We’ve established this, yes?

Comment #105: Samus  on  03/24  at  03:24 PM

The trouble with saying “But what about the menz?” is the lack of a recent research report analyzing possible stigmas affecting single men. Thus the timeliness just isn’t there.

Comment #106: Hector B.  on  03/24  at  03:34 PM

In many corporate structures, there is a stigma against single people that hurts career advancement.  They are seen as being less stable and less reliable than married employees are, consequently they usually end up with fewer opportunities for advancement.  (Throw this on top of the glass ceiling, and single women get hit with a double whammy.) 

I managed to avoid much of the social stigma in the cruellest way possible.  When I was 29, I met an amazing, wonderful woman.  Less than a year later, she died in a hiking accident.  So, for a few years, I was completely uninterested in dating, and by the time I was, I found I was less obsessed with the “need to partner.”

Comment #107: James  on  03/24  at  03:37 PM

I should work at a big law firm and make the big bucks instead of working at legal aid?  There is more to life than financial gain - there is also living honestly with integrity.

Look around you for a bit and then try to tell me this attitude is neither:

a) extremely rare
or
b) regarded as slightly perverse/deviant when it appears.

Oh sure lots of people pay lip service to the idea of integrity, but for the most part it’s just a handy cover.

Comment #108: Well, what?  on  03/24  at  03:39 PM

The trouble with saying “But what about the menz?” is the lack of a recent research report analyzing possible stigmas affecting single men. Thus the timeliness just isn’t there.

Come on, in this comment thread alone we can round up anecdotes from 32 men to provide a study that’s as rigorous as the one that inspired the original post (or, failing that, the authority of a NY Observer lifestyle piece).

Comment #109: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  03:42 PM

Richard: do make a “the patriarchy hurts men” blog. I will read it, enjoy it, etc. But right now ... you’re kind of off-topic.

Samus:

Read the entire thread.  I made a response to a particular point in the main article that I think is off target.  The thing is - if marriage is so damn great for everyone, then why the hard sell through stigmatization of single people?

Comment #110: Richard Goblin  on  03/24  at  03:50 PM

Oh sure lots of people pay lip service to the idea of integrity, but for the most part it’s just a handy cover.

Especially when the person banging on about bucking social stigma to live a life of “integrity” is a LAWYER.

Now before you stroke out, Richard, just let me explain that I do civil litigation, myself.  I know what it means when people find out what you do and say the words, “Trial Lawyers,” with that tone just dripping with scorn and disdain.  To my ears, that tone sounds as if those people truly believe that punitive damages awards will make the Earth stop spinning on its axis and the entire universe eventually implode. 

I have a feeling your profession, rather than the fact that you are single, might be a part of the reason you’ve encountered such stigma and disrespect.  But, buck up, Richard:  Nobody cares about your self-proclaimed integrity.  Not when you are a member of the profession that everyone loves to hate.  Until they need us, that is.

Comment #111: Mezosub  on  03/24  at  04:13 PM

The thing is - if marriage is so damn great for everyone, then why the hard sell through stigmatization of single people?

But marriage isn’t so damn great for everyone, in fact studies previously quoted on this blog have shown time and again that marriage is more often great for men and lousy for women… which is why the hard sell is required… on women, who have the most to lose (or not gain)... most men don’t get the hard sell until it’s obvious that they haven’t gone along with the societally accepted “natural course”. Women get the hard sell from the time that they can play with dolls.

Also, the stigmatization isn’t always equal. To demonstrate that point, there’s a word for single women who haven’t married, and one for single men… which word is more stigmatized; spinster or bachelor?

And I’m not saying that a la J. Alfred men don’t have it difficult as well, but I am saying that women have it worse and for longer.

Comment #112: kodiak  on  03/24  at  04:17 PM

In many corporate structures, there is a stigma against single people that hurts career advancement.  They are seen as being less stable and less reliable than married employees are, consequently they usually end up with fewer opportunities for advancement.  (Throw this on top of the glass ceiling, and single women get hit with a double whammy.)

I had a boss who despaired over the fact that he couldn’t ask the women he was interviewing for a management level position whether they were planning on having more children. He could tell they were married if they wore rings, but he really wanted to figure out whether they were going to “desert their post” at some point to have children.

so…. triple whammy? Because while married men are seen as stable and reliable, married women could be a powder keg what with wanting time off to deliver and care for their newborns… better not hire them either way ‘cause you never know with women. *headdesk*

Comment #113: kodiak  on  03/24  at  04:20 PM

I had a boss who despaired over the fact that he couldn’t ask the women he was interviewing for a management level position whether they were planning on having more children. He could tell they were married if they wore rings, but he really wanted to figure out whether they were going to “desert their post” at some point to have children.

There have been HR Management courses that teach hiring managers to specifically try to hire workers who have children.  Mortgages and debts are also included on those lists because they represent fetters that the employer can use to bind the workers to the jobs.  Workers who have debts and children tend to be more docile and less likely to complain about working conditions or to report corporate wrongdoing to the authorities because they NEED THEIR JOBS.

Single workers without a spouse, child, mortgage, health condition, or oppressive student loan debt to hold them down will absolutely be more efficient at their jobs, but they are also the ones who are free to leave when management tries to exploit them too much.  HR Managers hate that.  They are specifically trained to “trap” workers into jobs that the workers can’t afford to quit. 

Sometimes discrimination is on the basis of membership in a protected class, like being female.  Other times, it truly is all about the bottom line, and about the employer trying to exploit as much work out of the staff for as little compensation as the employer can possibly get away with.  In this particular case, and in the spirit of this blog, I think it’s probably both/and, not either/or.

Comment #114: Mezosub  on  03/24  at  04:32 PM

Single workers without a spouse, child, mortgage, health condition, or oppressive student loan debt to hold them down will absolutely be more efficient at their jobs, but they are also the ones who are free to leave when management tries to exploit them too much.  HR Managers hate that.  They are specifically trained to “trap” workers into jobs that the workers can’t afford to quit.

This is also one of the major unspoken reasons why corporate America loathes the idea of real health insurance reform. Anything that adds to labour mobility is anathema to the 4th Purpose/HR Culture—the more trapped an employee/consumer feels, the more docile he becomes (unless he “goes postal”).

On an organisational level, one of the main justifications for the existence of HR departments is benefits administration (which should be under the purview of the CFO’s office, anyhow). So the profession as a whole can’t be pleased with the prospect of the government taking over a major portion.

Comment #115: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  04:44 PM

Yeah, the patriarchy sure as hell doesn’t hurt everyone the same. It gives men rewards, which Richard and Gracchus don’t mention, because it takes shit away from women and men never have to experience that.  And sexism sure as fuck rewards men for shit that it punishes women for. So: no.

Comment #116: ginmar  on  03/24  at  04:58 PM

It gives men rewards, which Richard and Gracchus don’t mention

Yep, ginmar, didn’t mention privilege at all…

Oh, wait:

Actually, my point is that it doesn’t make it OK, because women don’t get the benefit of that offset at any age.

[...]

Someone offered the accurate observation that men often get the same crap as women, just at a later age; I added that even there they get a certain amount of offset by dint of their age.

I know this stuff pushes your buttons, and with good reason. But you might want to read more carefully.

Comment #117: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  05:25 PM

Actually, there’s kind of a wee difference between an offset and a reward.  You really don’t see the difference between them?  And when those rewards are looted from women and heaped on men, it’s a wee bit more stark than some tactful ‘offset’.

I think women get hounded about marriage because without marriage they’re depriving some dude of his baby-incubator and pot washer. Gee, what about those future sperm babies? What about his future legacy? Men might get chided now and then but so much sexism against women simply doesn’t get recognized as such. The forty-year-old Republican virgin nascient Teabagger I went to Martinique with one year wanted a rich, virgin supermodel and didn’t see anything untoward about holding out for that kind of woman. He’s not alone, either. Meanwhile, any old guy out there is marriage material, no matter how loserly he is, and no matter how outclassed he is by the women around him.

Comment #118: ginmar  on  03/24  at  05:39 PM

Actually, there’s kind of a wee difference between an offset and a reward. You really don’t see the difference between them?

In the case I cited, no. We start with the accurate contention that, at a certain age, both men and women get crapped on for not being married (for women, this has of course been going on for a while). But only one gender gets rewarded for age through means of an unfair offset, namely (quoting myself at #88):

because men aren’t perceived as having a biological clock or a “sell-by date.” Also, society tends to focus on men in terms of career accomplishments rather than parenting accomplishments.

What are those perceptions, focuses and assumptions if not rewards from the patriarchy for being born with a penis?

Otherwise, to say that something called “the patriarchy” would tend to give women the shaft while rewarding men seems somewhat obvious.

Comment #119: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  06:10 PM

Oh, the trope that men need to flee marriage because girls are icky and want to entrap them is way more than a mild offset. Men get propped up and told that they’re just great while in order to inaccurately hold up the other half of the stereotype, women get devalued and lied about——in really vicious ways. Who benefits there? Men. Esteem gets taken away from women to prop up mens’ conceit.

Comment #120: ginmar  on  03/24  at  06:35 PM

Oh, the trope that men need to flee marriage because girls are icky and want to entrap them is way more than a mild offset.

That isn’t the offset I was discussing. Nor did I characterise the one I was talking about as “mild.”

Comment #121: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  06:43 PM

Just wanted to say that I agree that there is a “what about the menz” dynamic occurring here.  However, I think the stigmatization of single men is quite relevant to the feminist content of the post.  The social pressure on men to marry is all about propping up traditional marriage, which in turn is all about encouraging gender hierarchies that ultimately screw over women.  So the “wut about the menz” issue is also very much related to the oppression of women.

Comment #122: Laurie  on  03/24  at  06:54 PM

So the “wut about the menz” issue is also very much related to the oppression of women.

Sure… I’d just like to see it addressed without two guys taking up half the thread airtime.

Comment #123: Bagelsan  on  03/24  at  07:30 PM

@#124 But Bagelsan, men are so much more important than women are, and their opinions carry more weight.  I mean, they have penises!  Don’t you realize that makes their experiences and thoughts more valid than women’s?  Get your head on straight!

Comment #124: dillene  on  03/24  at  09:02 PM

I don’t know if you can completely let liberal areas off the hook.  I live in the Pacific Northwest and most of my friends are married with young children.  It has become irritating to go to social events because they ask me when I’m going to get married and have children.  Every time I start dating someone new, they ask about his marriage potential.  Sometimes their comments make me feel like they think I am less mature than them because I’m still single.

Comment #125: isawabugtoday  on  03/24  at  10:08 PM

That corporate triple-whammy thing isn’t just because the married men are supposed to be more responsible, it’s because they’re supposed to have a cook/social/secretary/housekeeper/safe sexual outlet who will take care of all the mundane stuff for them so they can focus on their jobs.

Comment #126: paul  on  03/24  at  10:23 PM

It has become irritating to go to social events because they ask me when I’m going to get married and have children. 

Misery loves company.

Comment #127: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  12:15 AM

Patriarchal behavioral expectations hurt everyone (even if they hurt men less).

How interesting that you phrased it that way instead of saying “Patriarchal expectations hurt women more (although they hurt men too)”. That is the difference between talking about patriarchy and how it hurts everyone, and whining about What About The Menz.

I know what it means when people find out what you do and say the words, “Trial Lawyers,” with that tone just dripping with scorn and disdain.

Well, for starters, it means you give them a big, warm smile and say “So may I assume that you’ll never bother me for free legal advice?” Yes, yes, I know what you mean, but I like watching them scramble like cockroaches.

Comment #128: mythago  on  03/25  at  01:34 AM

Certainly those people can be influenced by traditional culture (e.g. the red New Year’s envelopes mentioned above), but at that point you might as well laugh at the absurdity of a 32-year-old PhD being treated like a child, or (to use exholt’s example) a married couple living on their parents’ dime being considered “mature.”

One thing which makes this issue of marriage pressure easier to deal with is also the fact that I can point to how nearly every high school/college classmate who opted to marry in their early 20s or even during college ended up in difficult divorces within the first 5-10 years after our graduation. 

Heck, I had a part in assisting one of those college classmates find a lawyer and legal information to facilitate divorce proceedings.  Makes it easy to laugh off those who seem to believe that marriage magically solves and conquers all problems.  LOL

Comment #129: exholt  on  03/25  at  06:45 AM

Last year a family friend pulled me aside and told me that I should go into therapy. Because clearly the fact that I can’t even snag a date means I’m broken. I’m still angry over that.

I had the actual therapist make the same assumption when I was on the couch for a totally unrelated problem.

Comment #130: ttintagel  on  03/25  at  11:26 AM

Well, for starters, it means you give them a big, warm smile and say “So may I assume that you’ll never bother me for free legal advice?” Yes, yes, I know what you mean, but I like watching them scramble like cockroaches.

Thanks mythago.  That actually cheered me up.  *smile*

Comment #131: Mezosub  on  03/25  at  12:35 PM

Get your head on straight!

Doh! I always forget. Clearly I need a husband. :D

Comment #132: Bagelsan  on  03/25  at  02:24 PM

There’s a parallel shame if you’re above a certain age and you’ve never had a boyfriend, and unfortunately that kind isn’t necessarily easy to escape in more liberal areas of the country.  I’m almost 20, I’ve never dated anyone, and I’ve started to notice that some of my friends have taken it upon THEMSELVES to try to set me up with people, and not always people who would be my ideal matches either.  One friend even tried to force me to be alone with a guy who was hitting on me at a party (by bailing on driving me home like she’d promised and assigning him to do it instead, even though I’d known this guy for all of 3 hours.  I luckily found another friend who was willing to drive me).  Later, when I made it clear I didn’t share this guy’s attraction, she acted like I had no right to be “so picky” when I’d never had a bf before, and implied that I caused this because I talked to him at this party.  She was pretty shocked when I explained I’d rather be single than be with just ANYBODY, and that I reserve the right to decide who I date and a guy being attracted to me does mean he is entitled to date/fuck me.

I would very much like to be with someone, but I’m not sure if I like the exclusivity aspect.  I also know that there are some things that would be issues that wouldn’t necessarily for other people, and unfortunately these get me a lot of hand-wringing from people who think I’m too “picky.”  So what if I’m a conservatory student and composer whose whole life pretty much revolves around classical music - I might get along GREAT with that guy who thinks anything classical is stupid and boring if I only gave him a CHANCE!  Hey, she dated a conservative, and even though she doesn’t give a crap about politics, that doesn’t mean someone who DOES care a lot and is active in politics like me won’t have the exact same experience she did!

Comment #133: Erda  on  03/25  at  10:27 PM

(to continue)

There’s a lot of shame of single women, and it manifests itself in many different ways, whether it be about marriage or just not having a boyfriend.  What surprises me though is that so much of it comes from women.  Most men I know seem to think my standards are fine - picky for some people, but for someone like me they make sense.  And they understand my idea that the “you’re too picky” advice only works so long as getting in a relationship is something that is valued for its own sake, and not, you know, because you want a wonderful person.  They understand that if being in a relationship means I have to compromise my standards, then what the hell, I might just be fine with staying single.  (It might be because I’m not too inclined to talk about relationship things with men I don’t see as feminists, but I’ve only had one who responded derisively toward my standards.)

It seems to be the women I know who don’t always get this - and who insist I must get a boyfriend pronto and want to don the matchmaker role in order to do it for me.  I know a few of the same mindset, but they’re few and far between the ones who want to set me up and tell me to lower my standards in order to get someone.  I’ve always wondered why this is the case.

Comment #134: Erda  on  03/25  at  10:33 PM

(Also, to those who respond - Please don’t tell me that my lack of dating experience means I can’t have even the *slightest* idea what will work for me in a relationship.  I’m pretty self-aware, and I’ve also seen what causes tension in my friends’ romantic relationships and been able to extrapolate how that would apply to me if I’m similar to them in whatever regard.  And with the classical music comment: I’m not talking about expecting a potential bf to be a Beethoven expert.  If he knows nothing about it but is open to learning about it, that’s one thing.  If he’s hostile to it: that’s more what I’m talking about as the sort of person I couldn’t date. 

And I don’t know why I’m justifying these standards I have, but even on “feminist” websites like this one I’ve gotten hostility over having standards when I haven’t dated anyone yet.  I don’t buy the idea that you have to have experienced something in order to have expectations about it.)

Comment #135: Erda  on  03/25  at  10:41 PM

Of course, I long ago gave up having any stake in being perceived as someone else’s conception of what “adult” was, so to the degree that the stigma exists, I brush it off.

I’m calling you out on this libertarian, rugged individualist bullshit.  People are social animals and so other peoples perceptions matter.  Period.  Full stop.  Social narratives matter.  If we could all just “brush it off” we wouldn’t need feminism and critical theory because we could all just exist in our little libertarian paradise.

************************************************************

So you’re saying what Rich? That just because you don’t have enough balls to get right back in someones face about how your personal life and choices are none of their F&^%ing business that no one else is capable of that? I promise you sport, you don’t want to go there with me. Do me a favor,  look up the definition of Chaotic Good for D&D;alignments - Yes some of us are exactly that way. I tend to lean lean a bit toward CN.
Btw, I’ll be 50 this year in July. Never married, no kids. I live in the Pacific Northwest. An added tid-bit, ya I’m one of those eccentrics - I pride myself in the fact that I’m not a sheep-boy follower. Did I mention I own several swords and a handful of daggers?

I guarantee you that the first time a person questions my life choices and makes a derogatory statement about said choices, after hearing my reply they never mention it again.

Comment #136: YourDad  on  03/26  at  02:24 PM

I might get along GREAT with that guy who thinks anything classical is stupid and boring if I only gave him a CHANCE!

Erda,

Good for you!  Anyone who thinks all classical music is stupid and boring is a total moron….and this is coming from someone who went through an anti-classical music phase in late high school/early college. 

Granted, that was not because of the music itself….but the fact every classical music fan I knew up to that point, whether family or not, tended to be insufferably pretentious snobby assholes who felt classical and/or jazz were the be-all and end-all of music….and everything else…especially after 1950 was garbage.  rolleyes

Fortunately, I went to a college with a reputable conservatory and found most conservatory students to be far more open-minded and diverse in their musical tastes than the population at large…especially most classical music fans IME.

Comment #137: exholt  on  03/26  at  05:52 PM

Erda, I’m certainly not going to judge you on your relationship choices, but I will say that you need to get some better friends. Somebody who deliberately tries to trap you alone with a guy who’s been hitting on you, when it’s clear you aren’t interested in him, is NOT YOUR FRIEND. She shouldn’t even be your acquaintance. She ignored your boundaries, substituted her own interests for your own, and bluntly, put you at risk of harm because she decided it was not okay for you to refuse a particular man’s attentions.

YourDad, I really hope you’re trolling.

Comment #138: mythago  on  03/26  at  09:54 PM

mythago: Yeah, we’re not friends anymore.

In her defense, though, she did think I was interested.  (She has a bad tendency to interpret platonic interest as romantic interest; she’s done this with tons of other single friends.)  She didn’t realize that she was wrong until we talked about this a few days after the party.

Still, her tactics (in making it so difficult for me to say no, like by leaving me without a ride home) and the way she acted afterward (like I had no right to deny him ” a chance,” because I “lead him on” and because I didn’t have enough “good reasons” not to like him) caused a huge rift in the friendship, as that discussion became something of a catalyst to realizing she had all sorts of awful anti-feminist views that made me realize I didn’t really want much to do with her anymore.

It’s made me more careful about which friends I trust with romantic advice, for sure (although, of course, she didn’t give me a choice).  Like, usually people who are either in relationships themselves or who I know are secure enough not to feel like they need to be in one.

Comment #139: Erda  on  03/29  at  03:50 AM

If people don’t have enough spine to resist social pressure to do something stupid like getting married, they deserve to suffer.

Comment #140: Abgrund  on  03/29  at  09:33 PM
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