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Next entry: Wiretappin’ Ain’t Easy Previous entry: Not my tax dollars, part two

Less focus on the scale, more on the muscle?

File in the “interesting and useful if proven true” files: Research has come out showing that the health risks associated with obesity may be more a matter of fat-to-muscle ratios than just the number on the scale.  The spin on the article is that there’s a lot of fat thin people—-people who have a BMI in the normal range, but who have very little muscle mass compared to fat, and therefore end up having a lot of the same health problems related to obesity. 

This does reinforce the point a lot of fat activists make about how the health to weight thing is more complicated than you’d think.  It’s definitely true that a lot of thin people eat like shit and don’t exercise, and often with predictable results.  What is also interesting is that the converse might have some traction, too—-that a lot of people whose number on the scale indicates that they’re overweight or even obese may not be as bad off as predicted, because their fat-to-muscle ratio is in a healthy range.  Fat activists have pointed out exceptions to the BMI obesity rule for a long time, pointing out that well-exercised beefy men like Arnold Schwarzenegger or George Clooney are technically obese by the BMI standard, but they’re in good shape by the common sense standard.  This research may demonstrate how true that is.  That said, most people that tip over into the “obese” range on the BMI scale are probably still carting around more of their body weight in fat, and so I imagine they’re just going to be told by the doctor to lose weight, just like usual.

What makes this good news is that it might incline doctors to think about exercise’s role in all this more than they currently do.  Not that any doctor would deny that exercising is good for you, but in all honesty, most interactions involving these issues involve people stepping on a scale, and if their weight is in the normal range, the doctor says nothing, and if they’re overweight or obese, the doctor tells them to lose weight.  And in our culture, that gets interpreted as “go on a diet”. But diets mostly don’t work.  By measuring success and failure in this department strictly from the scale, we continue to encourage this ineffective strategy. It’s not that Americans don’t think exercise is a good idea—-we do—-but let’s face it.  It’s not really treated as important as dieting by a long shot, even though it’s way more effective at reaching the health goals that this is all supposed to be about.  Maybe this research will incline doctors to talk to all patients, no matter where they stand scale-wise, on the importance of exercise and specifically of strength-training.

Interestingly, one reason I think that our culture tends to favor crash diets over exercise is that the body type for women (who are, after all, the target for most weight-related attention, even though these health issues matter as much if not more to men) that is most celebrated is the anorexically thin one.  We’ve all heard women write off doing strength-training on the grounds that they don’t want to “bulk up”.  In her marvelous science book Woman: An Intimate Geography, Natalie Angier has a great rant about this, as a feminist and as a science lover.  In sum, she argues that the fear is paranoid, because women’s hormones usually prevent the kind of bulking up that can happen with men who lift a lot of weights, and that the bulky female weight lifters you see have usually been taking steroids to get that look.  Not that there’s anything wrong with being bulky muscular, but granting that there’s a reason that women might not want to look like body builders or start bulging muscles out of their clothes, it’s still a silly fear.  And I nodded alongside Angier, thinking that all these women are so afraid of an imaginary threat to their looks that they’re putting themselves at risk for osteoporosis and other ailments.


But a few months ago, Austin Cline sent me this link to a (admittedly unscientific) poll that showed that many women, when thinking of women who are “too” muscular, aren’t thinking of body builders, but women who simply look like their legs can move their bodies around with relative ease.  Jessica Alba and Hilary Swank were amongst the women deemed “bulky”.  The blogger had a collection of pictures deemed “bulky” women.

Some of the results are mixed—-a lot of women polled still found women like Alba attractive, but 41% said that muscles are never attractive on women.  72% said they don’t think men find muscles on women attractive, and 77% said that they don’t think women find them attractive.  I found this entire survey startling, honestly, because I’ve never thought much about a woman who is cut beyond, “Awesome”, and I really love it when I’m working out enough to start seeing muscle definition.  I don’t think Hilary Swank looks “bulky” so much as “fucking amazing”.  But this survey indicates that there may be widespread prejudice against women with defined muscles, and that this may influence women’s choices. 

Of course, a lot of women realize that being muscular is a healthier, more realistic goal for them than being a waif.  But this glamorizing of the mostly fleshless still inclines me to think that Angier’s right, and a lot of women—-even those who are far from ever being waif-like—-are avoiding weight training because they believe it adds bulk and makes them bigger.  Because even if you think you’ll never be Paris Hilton skinny, you’re probably going to get anxious about any kind of exercise that you assume will make you bigger (even though it really won’t).  That minefield strikes me as a very plausible factor in why diets are emphasized over exercise in our culture, even though diets don’t work and even if they shrink your dress size, they may not result in health benefits so much as being hungry and weak.

I will say that this survey’s results does explain the cultural horror and fascination with Michelle Obama’s arms.  Who knew that so many people are wigged out by even the mildest evidence of strength?

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:50 PM • (82) Comments

If Jessica Biel is bulky, there is a serious problem with body image in the world.

Comment #1: bouj  on  01/26  at  07:48 PM

I worked with a personal trainer for a short while: It’s true—it’s almost impossible for women to “bulk up” without the use of steroids. Sorry for the lame anecdotal evidence. But it certainly rings true to me. Weight lifting is great for women.

Comment #2: Vacuumslayer  on  01/26  at  07:48 PM

boug, when i was a teen I thought Cindy Crawford was “fat”. I’m disgusted I was so messed up back then.

Comment #3: Vacuumslayer  on  01/26  at  07:50 PM

omg totally true. i used to be stupidly worried about that same thing until i actually consulted a trainer and read a lot of science about fitness that both cleared up that myth and convinced me that avoiding osteoporosis like my grandma is going to take some weights.  for the record, i’m busting my ass trying to look more like hilary swank, but even if it doesn’t happen, i know that being “skinny fat” forever is not what i want and exercise does a lot of good independent of the scale.

Comment #4: chareth cutestory  on  01/26  at  07:51 PM

I was a rower in a Div. I varsity program at college 8 years ago. I’m 6 foot 1 and was 170 lbs at my skinniest, working out 6 hours a day and being too depressed to eat much. Although being my size gets a lot of attention, I come from a family of athletes and everyone knows on sight I’m an athlete. This has liberated me during my whole life from any worry about too much muscle. Even so, I’ve learned there’s a limit to how much I can build, and it keeps me looking only as “bulky” as Jessica Biel up there.

Imagine my surprise the year I began coaching middle-aged women in indoor rowing. I told some of them to lift weights and eat protein because they wanted to know how they could row faster. They were shocked I’d suggest they do that because they didn’t want to bulk up. I straight up told them that, as 45+ year old white women with thin frames, that was next to impossible without steroids. They completely refused to believe me. I said, do I look bulky to you? They said, no, of course not. I was like, well then you won’t bulk up cause I’ve been rowing and lifting for 10 years! Even those who had lifted weights for years said they did long sets of light weights instead of short sets of heavy because they were afraid of bulking up!

Comment #5: Occam  on  01/26  at  07:56 PM

The BMI things really gets in people’s heads too.  I have a BMI at the border of overweight, but my percent body fat is well within “fitness” range.  I work out like a fiend, I am reasonably muscular, and I am very tall.  But the BMI says I am on the verge of fatass.  I can’t even begin to get into the body issues that ended up causing (exercise anorexia) that I still have to deal with now because I have a mental block about it.

The poll #‘s just show that people seem to equate rail-thin with attractive and healthy when being fit is healthier and better long term.

Comment #6: bouj  on  01/26  at  07:57 PM

It’s not just a fear of bulking up.  The current beauty ideal says that women should look weak and helpless.

Comment #7: keshmeshi  on  01/26  at  08:01 PM

This is crazy. When I was a swimmer in the early ‘80s, the coach had us all lifting weights, and I don’t remember any of us being worried about too much bulk. Is this a relatively recent development?

And Linda Hamilton in Terminatory 2 is totally one of the awesomest things ever. I love badass women. The self in my head is totally that badass, even if the self in my skin is a lot squishier.

Comment #8: Phoebe Fay  on  01/26  at  08:06 PM

I wonder if the “bulking up” is a timeline thing: you start working out, put on muscle before losing weight, see that your arm circumference has gone up a centimeter, and then freak out and stop before you get to the “good” (toned, slim) bit of the process?

I’m pretty sure that women can “bulk up” if we’re talking on the order of individual pounds or centimeters of circumference: anecdotally I know some skinny-ish women who put on a little weight when they started working out (partially just replacing fat with muscle, I’m sure, but that probably counts as “bulkier” in the eyes of someone who hops on the scale 5 times a day.) And my sister, a sprinter, has been told to try and increase her bicep circumference by a centimeter or two to increase her speed—I was the model “large” bicep girl, to prove to her that she wouldn’t look freakish with slightly larger upper arms. :p

But yeah, aside from these minor “bulk-ups” (if they can even be called that), as a female-bodied person it’s generally unreasonable to worry about looking like the Governator anytime soon.

Comment #9: Bagelsan  on  01/26  at  08:07 PM

Also, there’s no way I’m going to ever be skinny-fat—if I get fat(ter) I’ll just be fat-fat—so the choice is either bulgy one way or the other, yes? ;p I’d go with rippling muscles over rippling other bits, personally, though YMMV.

Comment #10: Bagelsan  on  01/26  at  08:10 PM

I really think our culture’s strange attitudes about dieting and exercise stem from our fundamentalist roots—when it comes to certain behaviors, it’s all or nothing. 

We see “diets” not as long-term daily habits of food consumption to maintain stable healthy condition, but temporary and often drastic limitations on eating to bring about fast weight reduction.  Inevitably, these drastic and unsustainable “diets” alternate with periods of excessive or unhealthy eating. 

With exercise it’s the same way.  Rather than be active in everyday activities (walking, taking stairs, etc.) over a lifetime, people are convinced that “exercise” requires extreme levels of exertion, and is not sustainable for most people.  I think this explains the popularity of dieting over exercise—most people see drastic food reductions as an easier “quick fix” than exercise, which they see as necessarily strenuous and difficult.

Comment #11: charles w  on  01/26  at  08:11 PM

BMI is a useful statistical tool—on average it tracks fat/muscle ratio pretty well, so it can be useful in population statistics. As an individual guide to your fitness level, it’s not so useful—you’re going to have a lot more direct indications of muscle mass, visceral fat, and other things connected to your health.

Comment #12: weirdnoise  on  01/26  at  08:11 PM

I have to take this opportunity to plug Stumptuous, an awesome female-centric fitness blog. It’s written by a personal trainer who also has a PhD in women’s studies (krista Scott-Dixon). She also has an interview in the latest issue of Bitch magazine.

I Dixon’s writing for it’s humor, accessibility, down to to earth approach (no endorsement of unproven neutraceuticals or gimmicks), the avoidance of fat-person-bashing…

Comment #13: Tuff Ghost  on  01/26  at  08:19 PM

correction - i meant to say I LOVE dixon’s writing for those reasons. I’ve found it totally helpful.

Comment #14: Tuff Ghost  on  01/26  at  08:20 PM

As a side note, it’s very difficult for most middle-aged men to bulk up significantly without steroids; we don’t produce as much testosterone as teenagers.

Comment #15: bad Jim  on  01/26  at  08:24 PM

Wow, I was having this same mental rant this week.  Was even going to blog about it (not that anyone outside of my cares about my blog), but I find it mostly taken care of.  Thanks Amanda!

I was coming at it from a very geeky perspective of course.  I had just casually seen a comic book poster (okay, not casually, I read a lot of comics) and noticed that all the superhero men in it were buff and cut, and all the women, who were supposed to be just as adept at kicking ass, looked like they had never done any exercise in their life and were drawn with no muscles what-so-ever.  Mainstream superhero comics are very much a drawn by men for a certain, tragic subset of men in this culture (a group I am too often a part of) and it just really seemed odd to me that while the men are idealized to be huge, a woman whose forte is also massive physical violence is drawn to be weak and slim.  I was just really irritated that even in a fantasy setting, when asked to portray their ideal of a strong female character, even comic books, the masters of physical exaggeration, can’t bring themselves to draw female warriors as even slightly toned.  I don’t understand it.  My own conclusion was similar to Amanda’s, that there is much more of a wide-spread bias against muscular women than I would have thought.  It makes no sense to me except as an idealization of weak women as more suitable for partners than strong women (who, in addition to muscles, might actually have their own opinions).

I don’t know, personally I find nothing more attractive than a woman who is in shape with lots of nicely defined muscles.  A lot of men look good that way too.  Being fit and healthy is attractive!  Shocking!  I have no idea where this hideous idea that women are not allowed to look fit and healthy comes from or why so many young people choose to adopt it.

Comment #16: SoylentH  on  01/26  at  08:24 PM

I agree—just about all women can benefit from weight training, but I think it needs to be said that pumping iron isn’t the *only* kind of weight training.  Dance training, Pilates, and yoga, for example—done properly—will build muscle mass, strength and stability (especially in the deep abdominal muscles that support the spine) without creating bulk.  Simply walking and carrying a backpack and a child or two is a form of weight training, too—trust me, hauling my boys around for the past decade and a half has kept my arms very toned, and I am one VERY lazy girl when it comes to barbells, real gyms, and the like.  *shudder*

Honestly, who’s got the time and money for gyms anyway right now?  I sure don’t.  But old fashioned and boring stuff like walking briskly for a few miles every day, taking seven flights of stairs instead of the elevator, doing a few crunches and pushups at night, etc.—well, those don’t sell any equipment or special clothes or pricey diet foods, so you won’t hear about them on teevee.

Comment #17: litbrit  on  01/26  at  08:30 PM

  I have no idea where this hideous idea that women are not allowed to look fit and healthy comes from or why so many young people choose to adopt it.
Comment #16: SoylentH on 01/26 at 06:24 PM

start with a status class indicator in a lot of cultures.  Muscle meant one did heavy manual labor.  Super skinny or able to be confined in a 12” waist corset meant one did not toil.  It’s the same reason tiny feet are valued in Asia to the point of mutilation in the past - only the rich could afford women who didn’t have to walk.

Comment #18: phylosopher  on  01/26  at  08:34 PM

I always hate how my non-muscular leg fit in pants which apparently are for women who have barely more hips and certainly less calves than I have.

It’s annoying.

Comment #19: Crissa  on  01/26  at  08:35 PM

I have two things to add to Amanda’s ideas as to why dieting is privileged over exercise.

First of all, dieting has a public performance, back-patting and fatty-shaming aspect that going to the gym doesn’t.  Meal times are often social, and so the dieters get the boost of superiority from being the ones at the table who attach a positive moral value to their food choices.  “Oh, I better just have the salad.  I’m watching my weight.”  The flipside is self-scolding for eating what you really want to eat, which other people do to deflect (probably unspoken) criticism: “Ohhhhhhh, brownies!  I’m being bad today!”  People love that stuff, even though it’s bullshit.  Yes, some people work out with a buddy or do group exercise, but that’s a much more limited social sample, and it’s a place where everyone else is working out too so there’s no one who will be too impressed with you.

My second point may be hard to understand for some people who have never been very overweight or obese (or maybe it won’t, I don’t know).  For some people who struggle with their feelings about their bodies, there is a fear of movement that’s almost paralyzing.  If you go to the gym, everyone will notice how much slower you’re going on the treadmill than anyone else, and they will know HOW DISGUSTINGLY OUT OF SHAPE YOU ARE!! Everyone will notice how out of breath and red-faced you are, AND THEY WILL KNOW.  They will see the way your body moves, AND THEY WILL KNOW.  They will know because you’re fat!!  They will smugly congratulate themselves for not being as disgusting as you!!  OMG, a fat person at the place for fit people!!!1!! And while this may seem a bit silly to the outsider, it’s a day-to-day reality for a lot of obese people which, in my experience, is very hard to get rid of.  The shame of fatness cuts deeply.  For this demographic, dieting may be an easier place to start (and end, because it totally doesn’t work).

Also, as a footnote, dieting is a huge, huge, huge industry, but one that never requires you to spend $1200 in one shot on a fancy piece of equipment.  Some diets (esp ones that require you to buy specialty foods) may be equally expensive, but it’s distributed over time so it doesn’t feel like such a burden.

Comment #20: inthepost  on  01/26  at  08:40 PM

I’m suspicious of this survey. Where and what group of women were questioned? These opinions sound too much like they come from pearl-clutching Republicans.

Comment #21: LCforevah  on  01/26  at  08:43 PM

Just one note:

Just because most women can’t really bulk up without steroids doesn’t mean that *all* women can’t be pretty darn chuncky if they grind out the work.  I’ve seen plenty of bicyclist girls who got no-shit thighs, and there are a whole bunch of fairly marginalized (in appearance terms) women who seriously have the frame for serious muscles even if it’s not particularly manly.  Many of those women are accused of using steroids when they haven’t.  This issue is pretty damn important because the whole womanly thing is pernicious in athletics because of transphobicism.

Comment #22: shah8  on  01/26  at  08:43 PM

Oh, I’m pretty bulky, and I never used to be.  My shoulders used to be rather narrow.  It is possible to bulk up without steroids, certainly,  and I remember when I first took up martial arts training, I would go to reach for the door handle, or something, with a sudden move, and my clothing would rip.  The seams in my jackets would come asunder.  So now I have moved towards better made and/or more stretchy fabric.  The thing is that I am quite happy not being attractive to guys who think in terms of gender stereotypes.  Those are not the guys for me.  They are too vapid.  If a male can’t look beyond a little bulkiness then of what worth is he?  Muscularity, however, heightens my libido.

Comment #23: scratchy888  on  01/26  at  08:49 PM

Coincidently, I just saw this about the Whole Foods Asshole and his obsession with the BMI of his employees…

Comment #24: MikeEss  on  01/26  at  09:18 PM

I want to second that women can be bulky - I have decent-sized biceps even when my only workout is lifting grain bags every other week or so (to carry them somewhere, not doing reps or anything). When I went on a weight-training regimen a year or so ago, my upper arm muscles were larger than many of the guys I work with. Personally, I think they look pretty sweet, but if I were prone to body-image issues, I’d avoid any sort of upper-body weight training.
And my personal hero, a woman who can drag a 6-month old calf across a pen with one hand, does give off an ‘overweight’ vibe in pictures of her from the waist up because of her large arms. So the ‘bulk up’ fear isn’t totally unfounded (although letting body image fears stand in the way of health is not a good idea in general).

Comment #25: jalmondale  on  01/26  at  09:20 PM

in addition to what inthepost said in #20 it seems like the observations you’re making here, Amanda, relate to the ones you made about Avatar. We feel like we’re being more pious when we deprive our bodies of eating food that is good, but are uncomfortable with enjoying our bodies by being active. Dieting helps us reinforce that bodies are gross and sinful, exercise not so much.

Comment #26: bethany  on  01/26  at  09:27 PM

Stumptuous FTW.

litbrit: You can do some pretty decent weight training with just bodyweight exercises.  Just try doing 3 sets of 12 walking lunges and see if your thighs and glutes don’t tell you about it.

I enjoy lifting at the gym because I feel badass, though (not that I am actually badass at all). It makes me feel all “RAWR I am powerful.” It’s fun for me. I also find it meditative and calming; in that moment when I’m pushing that barbell up, I’m not worrying or thinking about anything else. Plus, it’s good for my somewhat ADD brain because you don’t have to do the same thing for very long.  I usually do 3 sets of 8-12 reps for each exercise (using a weight that I can only lift for 8-12 reps). By the time I’m bored with an exercise, it’s time to move on to the next one.

inthepost, yeah, I know. Even though I’m not obese, I’ve struggled with an eating disorder in the past and still find cardio machines pretty triggering—especially at my university gym where lots of super-skinny 18 year old girls work out and show off. I find myself judging whether I’m fatter than her, or she’s fatter than me, and my self-esteem and stress level goes up and down depending on the answer. I don’t know how to solve it.

Comment #27: snowmentality  on  01/26  at  09:27 PM

Society is SAFER when it is filled with capable, strong people.  I want the stewardess to be able to drag my unconscious body out of the burning airplane. 

I don’t think that it’s just “pearl clutching Republicans” who are afraid of muscles on women.  I wouldn’t say that the the mid 90s heroin chic trend was a right-wing thing.  Actually, the site that is really at the forefront of embracing strong women along with strong men is www.crossfit.com.  The politics of the founder definitely lean libertarian, but people of all political persuasions follow the WOD (workout of the day).

I prefer working out at home because I don’t have tons of time to go to the gym, change clothes, etc.  For working out at home on the cheap, www.shovelglove.com, by Reinhard Engels, is a great site.  He really understands the psychology of working out and developing sustainable habits.

Comment #28: Seth  on  01/26  at  09:48 PM

scratchy888 @ 23 brings up a good point that may be driving some of this fear of so-called “bulkiness”. Women’s clothing—-outside of workout clothes—-doesn’t come in an “athletic” cut the way men’s clothing does. If you work out, you are going to have shoulder, arm and chest measurements that don’t match up with your waist measurement (when it comes to women’s sizes), and while your hips and knees are going to be slim, your ass, thighs and calves are probably also going to present a problem when it comes to finding non-workout clothes. Relaxed fit jeans work for me (more “give” in the thighs, while still being slim enough in the waist), but hey—-my workplace has jeans on the dress code.

Shopping in the men’s or boy’s department isn’t an option for smaller women; we don’t have waists large enough or thighs small enough to accommodate that cut of clothing.

And frankly, this surprises me, that it’s still this way. I’ve been working out for damn near thirty years, and so have a lot of other women. Yet the clothing industry still hasn’t caught up.

Comment #29: La Lubu  on  01/26  at  09:52 PM

Yup, thirding the ‘women can bulk up’ observation.  Short, stocky, broad-shouldered and barrel chested and I put on muscle *fast*.  I actually stopped doing weight training years ago because I was getting so hefty and I had/have some serious body-image issues around my size.  What’s perhaps sadder is that in casual conversation with others (both men and women) about exercise I mention that I used to do weight training and a little lifting, and then all I have to add is that ‘I put on big muscle fast, I’ve got the same body type as my father and brother, except they’re both taller than me’.  That’s usually all I have to say - most people instantly fill in the rest of the sentence ‘...oh, so you had to stop doing it’.

Comment #30: Theadosia  on  01/26  at  09:55 PM

I’m used to the bizarre and contradictory things our screwed up culture instills in some (too many) women’s body images, but I’m having trouble reconciling the idea that (1) men don’t find “muscular” women attractive, and (2) Jessica Biel represents “muscular” in the prior statement, considering that (3) a considerable percentage of the ogling internet spent the last few years hyperventilating over how ridiculously hot Biel is, including but not at all limited to getting named the sexiest woman alive by either Esquire or GQ.  That’s just the most convoluted thing that jumps out at me here.

Comment #31: medrawt  on  01/26  at  10:02 PM

Remember that bulky and muscular are not necessarily the same thing.  Women can definitely add bulk, but the WSJ article is talking about body fat percentage.  200 lbs at 15% body fat is likely to be a lot less “bulky” than 180 pounds at 35% body fat because a pound of muscle takes up a lot less space than a pound of fat.  There are women who do crossfit and are under 15% body fat.  The look quite muscular, but the tend not to be “bulky” if you actually measure with a tape measure.

Comment #32: Seth  on  01/26  at  10:10 PM

I remember when I first took up martial arts training, I would go to reach for the door handle, or something, with a sudden move, and my clothing would rip.

Y’see, straight dudes should be *insisting* that women bulk up! What could be sexier than a woman whose clothes may just spontaneously fall off in public? :p (We’ll just gloss over the bit about you being able to punch their kidneys out through their spines when pitching the idea.)

Comment #33: Bagelsan  on  01/26  at  10:20 PM

If you go to the gym, everyone will notice how much slower you’re going on the treadmill than anyone else, and they will know HOW DISGUSTINGLY OUT OF SHAPE YOU ARE!! Everyone will notice how out of breath and red-faced you are, AND THEY WILL KNOW.  They will see the way your body moves, AND THEY WILL KNOW.  They will know because you’re fat!!  They will smugly congratulate themselves for not being as disgusting as you!!  OMG, a fat person at the place for fit people!!!1!! And while this may seem a bit silly to the outsider, it’s a day-to-day reality for a lot of obese people which, in my experience, is very hard to get rid of.

Yes, this!

I know that I’ve told myself I’d start going to the gym once I dieted off some weight, because then I wouldn’t feel so stupid.

I know I’ve gone to the gym and walked down to the pool in my swimsuit telling myself over and over again that its OK for me to be here.

I know I’ve done shorter workout sessions at the pool and wondered if the lifeguards, who have nothing else to do but watch me swim, laugh at me.  Especially when I use pull-buoys (flotation devices you put between your thighs to hold your lower body up while you do laps without kicking).

It’s very scary to go to the gym for me.  And there are a lot of people a lot fatter than I am.

Comment #34: Denise  on  01/26  at  10:56 PM

For some people who struggle with their feelings about their bodies, there is a fear of movement that’s almost paralyzing.  If you go to the gym, everyone will notice how much slower you’re going on the treadmill than anyone else, and they will know HOW DISGUSTINGLY OUT OF SHAPE YOU ARE!! Everyone will notice how out of breath and red-faced you are, AND THEY WILL KNOW.

It took me a long time to realize that at the gym, most people aren’t looking at YOU.  Of course, I still stick to the girlier weight machines over the free weights.  But I’m lucky enough to have a super-expensive, pretty awesome gym that’s subsidized by 20,000+ undergraduates, so going to work out (at least at non-peak hours) is a pleasant experience.  A FitWorks or, god forbid, a Curves would probably make me cry. 

I find that a little bit of weight training on top of your cardio makes everything sexier, faster, and easier.  We should all be so lucky that an hour or two with the weights each week would make us bodybuilders.  Also, and I am certainly NOT putting this out there to inspire anyone, I’ve had no fewer than two guys independently show me pictures of female body builders and tell me “this is what you should aim for.”  While not appropriate or particularly tactful, it does tell me that there’s room for bulky, roided up girls to be considered sexy.  Since most women would be lucky to achieve Michelle Obama Toned,  we can assure our foolish friends that a little weight training won’t force them to become horrid feminist cat lady spinsters.  And it’s so good for you.

Comment #35: Kyso K  on  01/26  at  11:00 PM

I enjoy lifting at the gym because I feel badass, though (not that I am actually badass at all). It makes me feel all “RAWR I am powerful.” It’s fun for me. I also find it meditative and calming; in that moment when I’m pushing that barbell up, I’m not worrying or thinking about anything else.

This is how I feel too. I’ve been doing it since I was a teenager and I love it. I am already overweight/obese by BMI standards but I figure regular exercise will keep me healthy. I have a large frame - broad shoulders size 8 ring and 10 shoes so It feels good to have a little bulk and get stronger - like I would be strong enough to be safe or help someone in an emergency, like what Seth said at #28.

Comment #36: MissCherryPi  on  01/26  at  11:05 PM

Man, I wish it were easier for women to visibly bulk up.  I’ve been lifting weights for years, and I’ve definitely gotten stronger—I like being able to open my own pickle jars—but I’ve still got shapeless sausage arms.  I love the cut look; I remember that brief period in the ‘90s when “Terminator 2” came out and women with well-defined biceps were hot.  But it’s not something my body wants to do.

When I first started lifting weights, my husband was kind of worried that I’d get big muscles.  He once had this conversation with our friend Jason:

Andrew: I don’t know if I want her to look like John Byrne’s She-Hulk.
Jason: Which version of She-Hulk do you want her to look like?

Once it became obvious that getting stronger had little effect on my appearance, it became a non-issue.  But I was surprised there were guys who didn’t like muscular women, because I’d always thought it was an awesome look.

Comment #37: Shaenon  on  01/26  at  11:19 PM

If you go to the gym, everyone will notice how much slower you’re going on the treadmill than anyone else, and they will know HOW DISGUSTINGLY OUT OF SHAPE YOU ARE!! Everyone will notice how out of breath and red-faced you are, AND THEY WILL KNOW.  They will see the way your body moves, AND THEY WILL KNOW.  They will know because you’re fat!!  They will smugly congratulate themselves for not being as disgusting as you!!  OMG, a fat person at the place for fit people!!!1!!

Me.  This up here?  This is me.  This has been me since I hit puberty and was actually a perfectly healthy weight, but with pasty, pasty skin, flabby thighs, and pubic hair that will no leave my thighs alone (trying to shave to a low-cut bathing suit’s line was itchy and painful; bikini cut is out of the question).  The sense that you are the wrong physical type and you should not be in a place devoted to exercise goes bone-deep, and the only way I’ve found to kick it is to go spend some time in an exercise environment that cuts out all the attention absolutely anyone could possibly be paying.  The swimming pool closest to where I grew up was great for this, if you were 18+, because it had an ‘adult swim’ every day; they threw everyone under the age of eighteen out of the pool and people did lengths.  Most of those people were post-menopausal women who had kids around, so I felt like they were just as out-of-shape as I was in the spring.  Of course, that meant that from the time I hit puberty to the summer I was eighteen, I basically did not swim.

When I was in university they redid the student gym, and a bunch of us were talking about it.  We knew it was there, but since practically all of the internal walls were glass, we all felt uncomfortable with the idea of working out there.  Logically speaking, none of us were extreme body types, but we felt fat and unathletic, so we felt unwelcome in the places we could have actually been getting some exercise.  It is absolutely vicious, and hits a lot of girls very, very young.

Of course, in my case, I think all of the women in the photos posted above have very attractive arms, and I wish mine looked like that—I just don’t think I can stomach going in to a public gym to learn how, so I and my 5-pound free weights will stick to flailing around with the curtains drawn.

Comment #38: fluffster  on  01/26  at  11:42 PM

La Lubu, men have the same problem. If lifting/sports results in gluteus really MAXimus and large thighs but small waist - short of custom clothing or living in sweats - casual dress is a problem.

Comment #39: phylosopher  on  01/26  at  11:44 PM

Well fucking duh.  Just fucking duh.

Weight 190
Height 5’3
Waist 30”
Pants 12
Top 16-18 (big biceps and shoulders)
Typical weekly high intensity exercise time: 8 hours
Cholesterol: may be actually as high as normal after a week in NOLA eating fried shit
BP: 110/65
blood sugar: normal

Tell me again why I’m morbidly obese according to BMI standards?  Huh?

Comment #40: Ms Kate  on  01/26  at  11:49 PM

I know I’ve done shorter workout sessions at the pool and wondered if the lifeguards, who have nothing else to do but watch me swim, laugh at me.

For what it’s worth, I worked as a beach lifeguard for three years, and I never laughed at any of our patrons for being fat.  And I don’t recall any of the other guards doing so either.  I can’t speak for other places, but were mostly concerned with there being the same number of heads above water as there were a minute ago.

Comment #41: rowmyboat  on  01/26  at  11:50 PM

I have to admit, I scout the gym and adjust my regular evening there to whatever day of the week seems to attract the oldest, fattest crowd.

So I blend in. 

Because my obese 36-year-old ass looks really freakin’ bad in the middle of a lineup of 19-year-old waifs, but lends right into the middle-aged-secretarial-spread set.

Comment #42: Thena, Sultana of Stale Raisin Bread  on  01/26  at  11:52 PM

p.s. my body fat percentage is below 30%  I’d like to get down to 150lbs ... slowly ... do to arthritis in my knees and familial diabetes risk, which would put it more like a 1 fat to 6 lean ratio.

Comment #43: Ms Kate  on  01/26  at  11:52 PM

I can’t speak for other places, but were mostly concerned with there being the same number of heads above water as there were a minute ago.

former lifeguard here.  Seconded.

Comment #44: Ms Kate  on  01/26  at  11:57 PM

UHm, there are gyms and there are gyms.  Around here, the larger (expensive) chain gyms are the meat markets to avoid.  Matching spandex, and the smell of cologne or hairspray and I know to run.  Found a hardcore, natural, power lifting “iron gym.” Quite a few working class world caliber record holders.  Top lifter looks like a gorilla - not cut.  One of the most respected lifters there?  “Betty”  started lifting at 60+- she looks every bit the grey-haired grandma, no attempt to hide it.  Lots of master’s class titles.

Don’t hog the stations, don’t interrupt a lift, put your weights away, wipe down equipment and even the gorilla will gladly give the amateur a spot - even if he only needs to use one finger to do so with the weights I use.

Comment #45: phylosopher  on  01/26  at  11:59 PM

stumptuous: howling the eternal YES!

Comment #46: Ms Kate  on  01/27  at  12:00 AM

Since most women would be lucky to achieve Michelle Obama Toned, we can assure our foolish friends that a little weight training won’t force them to become horrid feminist cat lady spinsters.

*sigh* I’m deliberately attempting to be a horrid feminist cat lady spinster; however, since I started weightlifting—especially when I switched from powerlifting to bodybuilding—I keep getting comments like “you look like a supermodel!” instead of people running away in horror at the sight of a chick with biceps.

I am enjoying the current trend of Ass-Kicky Sexy Action Ladies in movies and TV shows starting to look like they could actually kick ass. Even Buffy’s spaghetti arms always kinda pissed me off, even though I know that (a) her superstrength was magical, not muscular and (b) the whole concept of Buffy’s character was that she was supposed to look like the character Most Likely To Get Killed Off First In Any Other Movie.

PS The woman in that picture looks like she could definitely be using a much heavier weight there than (the really prominently labeled ONLY FIVE POUNDS, DON’T WORRY LADIES, IT’S NOT A *BIG* DUMBBELL, JUST) 5 lbs. For some reason, almost every picture of women lifting weights I’ve ever seen, outside of picture of the competitive bodybuilding ladies (the ones that make you stop and go HOLY SHIT WHAT DID THAT PERSON DO TO THEIR BODY THEY LOOK LIKE THE HULK), seems to scale down how much they’re actually lifting. I recently saw a cover of a woman’s fitness magazine, where a woman slightly larger than me was doing hammer curls with what looked like five, maybe ten-pound dumbbells. I do hammer curls with 20 lbs and I am effing tiny. Its like, even when showing women who obviously *do* do strength exercises, they’re terrified of showing them picking up strength weights instead of toning weights. Because TONING IS MORE APPROPRIATELY GIRLY THAN STRENGTH, even when discussing female strength training.

Comment #47: thecynicalromantic  on  01/27  at  12:17 AM

To me, while Michelle appears healthy and in shape, her arms seem to be quite proportionate to those of a taller person.

When it comes to American celebrities, if you, for example, google “Katie Couric” + “biceps” or “muscle”, you’d wonder how much the exaggerated attention Michelle Obama’s arms got was down to nitpicking and various kinds of opportunism.

Comment #48: Markus  on  01/27  at  12:34 AM

yup, some women can definitely bulk up.  When I came home after doing a lot of weight training my first semester in college, my grandfather noted that I looked like a professional butterfly swimmer.

Conversely, when I got busy in grad school and stayed home from the gym for a semester, I dropped 20lbs, which brought my BMI back from near-overweight and got me a lot of compliments.  I definitely had not gotten healthier.  Ah well.

Comment #49: Kirjava  on  01/27  at  12:34 AM

Some women are sensitive to their own testosterone ... about 3% of women.  The rest won’t generally bulk up.  HOWEVER, if you have a very small amount of body fat ... or a small amount of body fat on certain parts ... you will look muscle-y no matter how truly muscle-y you really are.

Comment #50: Ms Kate  on  01/27  at  12:53 AM

I find those numbers surprising in this day and age as far as women not wanting muscle tone. I thought the athletic look was in now. Especially when you consider all the female athletes that model on the side (or do one-off magazine pictorials).

As far as bulking up, some women do, and some women don’t. For every Venus Williams who is 165# of pure muscle, there is a Hilary Swank who had to drink protein shakes all day, and pull a pickup truck around the parking lot with a rope tied around her waist to put on 15# of muscle(That was seriously part of her workout regimen for Million Dollar Baby)

Comment #51: Bruce from Missouri  on  01/27  at  01:34 AM

I can’t speak for other places, but were mostly concerned with there being the same number of heads above water as there were a minute ago.
former lifeguard here.  Seconded.

My sister was a lifeguard when she was a teen and I heard her make fun of obese people, but she worked at SixFlags and you had to be both ultra morbidly obese AND a giant pain in the ass to attract her ridicule.  For instance, IF you were heavy enough to sink a paddle boat AND you insisted on sinking the paddle boat against all advice, then probably she’d say something, much later, when you couldn’t hear it.  Anything less and you were just another head bobbing in the water.  On an unrelated note, enough people carry cash in their swimsuit that it was not uncommon for lifeguards to rescue themselves some lunch money, which is something for young people to consider against the cost of getting certified smile

If it makes you feel better, I’m only sort of fat so when I’m swimming I worry that the lifeguard is disgusted by my swimming technique.  Hey, it was good back when I was in 8th grade.

Comment #52: Kyso K  on  01/27  at  01:43 AM

When I was in the Navy I was stationed aboard a ship that shot exercise torpedos.  The torpedos were retrieved for reuse, along with buoys held in place by anchors and hundreds of yards of soaking wet 6 inch line, which had to be faked by hand onto pallets.  The work was grueling and we female sailors did it right along with the males.  I ate like a lumberjack and I’m sure my BMI was well into the overweight category (thank god they changed the standards from height/weight to a somewhat more reasonable waist and hip measurement or I would have been put on what was lovingly called the “fat boy program.”)  Had I a “normal” BMI at the time I would not have been able to do my job.

And where women are concerned, I suspect this modern emphasis on our “health” is a thinly disguised proxy for shaming women for not looking a certain way.

Comment #53: DonnaDiva  on  01/27  at  01:56 AM

“I know I’ve done shorter workout sessions at the pool and wondered if the lifeguards, who have nothing else to do but watch me swim, laugh at me.  Especially when I use pull-buoys (flotation devices you put between your thighs to hold your lower body up while you do laps without kicking). “

Probably not.  On the swim team we always used pull-buoys.  They feel silly, but every swimmer is completely used to them.

Comment #54: leedevious  on  01/27  at  02:19 AM

I enjoy lifting at the gym because I feel badass, though (not that I am actually badass at all). It makes me feel all “RAWR I am powerful.”

I’ve said this before, but it was really weird for me when I first got down to my goal weight because I felt small, and not in a good way.  Diminished.  And it’s not like I lost down to some crazy skinny weight—I’m 5’3” and my goal is 130 pounds.  I coped with it by joining a gym and starting to lift weights.

I’m guessing that there are at least a few women who felt the same way once they got to their goal weight and regained weight to get that feeling of power back because we really do have this weird block as a culture about women doing weight training.

Comment #55: Mnemosyne  on  01/27  at  03:18 AM

“a lot of women polled still found women like Alba attractive, but 41% said that muscles are never attractive on women.  72% said they don’t think men find muscles on women attractive, and 77% said that they don’t think women find them attractive.”

S’cuse me but… this is going to sound like male privilege out the wazoo or something (I promise it’s not) but… but… who gives a crap what women think other women should look like?!?!?!

I ask because it’s certainly the case that women appear to care hugely more about how other women look than men do.  And also appear to care hugely more about how other women think they look than how men think they look.

If I was an MRA or something I’d snuffle about how it’s so unfair that Teh Feminists blame men for forcing women into unhealthy diets, uncomfortable shoes, entire toxic waste dumps full of cosmetics and hair products and (worst of all in my opinion anyway) clothes without pockets that… cost two to five times as much to purchase as men’s and two to ten times as much to (dry!) clean.  When, as this survey shows, women are full of the harsh towards other women.

Of course I’m not an MRA so I’ll go with stuff Hegel, or Naomi Wolfe, or Susie Orbach and say something about the feminine beauty trap which, like the corresponding masculine worthiness trap is a product of our self-criticism and self-policing in the face of our gendered expectations.  And that is sure seems like there’s sort of the opposite of that stupid joke about bears and running shoes where we tell ourselves if we’re going to get the man/woman/whatever of our dreams we can’t just meet the typical non-gendered threshhold of attractiveness to the opposite gender and instead perceive that we have to beat everyone else who might also be interested in them.  With the result that we’re more acutely attuned to the nuances of… whatever gender trap is assigned to us than members of the opposite sex are ever likely to be…

...with the result that, ironically, we’re likely to be more judgmental of, and have higher standards for, ourselves and our peers than the prospective partners we’re allegedly competing for.  Which is why I think it’s an escalating trap.  To the point that, say, women can wind up saying things like “don’t kiss me I just did my hair” and men say things like “I can’t come home now, I’m not earning enough to keep you happy” that are objectively dumb but subjectively make perfect sense to them.

—-

But what I really wanted to say was I think it’s weird that the report would gather statistics on whether other women think buff women are unattractive.  Which goes back, I think, to me being gender, and probably cis- and all kinds of other privileged after all. Because when I hear “women are” attractive/unattractive/whatever I automatically append “to men.”  As if that was the only criteria that matters.  And I’m not sure it’s a good excuse that that really is supposed to be what the whole attractiveness industry is predicated on.

And now after saying that I’m going to add that I think 77% of women are out of their minds if they don’t think men think muscles on women are attractive.  It’s as dumb as saying 77% of men think women aren’t interested in men who don’t have… I dunno… high-paying jobs or something.  Because I’m pretty sure a heck of a lot fewer than 77% of men think buff women are unattractive.  I mean, seriously, I don’t get it.

—-

@scratchy888 said: “Women’s clothing—-outside of workout clothes—-doesn’t come in an “athletic” cut the way men’s clothing does.” That part certainly is true.  In the past I spent a lot of time doing pool aerobics with athletes recovering from knee, foot, and leg injuries and it’s certainly true that contemporary women’s clothes, ironically, don’t seem to “flatter” fit women’s bodies as well as they do women who aren’t as fit.  Except, I guess, in the pool or at the beach.

Things like this make you wonder who invented heterosexuality anyway?  I mean, I like being heterosexual and all but wow, for something that’s supposed to be “how nature made us” we end up doing a lot of embarrassing things to ourselves and each other.

figleaf

Comment #56: figleaf  on  01/27  at  04:22 AM

72% said they don’t think men find muscles on women attractive, and 77% said that they don’t think women find them attractive.

Did they do a survey of straight men’s perceptions of beauty, or do you know of one existing? I know I find women that work out and have muscle definition to be hotter than those who don’t, and I think most of my (straight) male friends are in agreement with me. It’d be interesting to see if the normative standard of beauty is enforced by a minority of men, and the majority of men nod along in agreement while actually finding well-toned women more beautiful than their super-thin peers… or if I just have self-selection issues.

If the latter is true, I’m guessing that straight men who describe themselves as “feminist” would find toned women more attractive simply because they’re not intimidated by - and in fact drawn to - strong women…

Comment #57: Jeff  on  01/27  at  04:46 AM

Women in my family have solid muscles and build muscle on them. I know at least 20 of the pounds that I gained after high school are muscle, and I put on 2 inches of muscle from strength training my back and arms after a ligament tear that let my scapula hang loose painfully—a nurse explained to me the only cure was to get my muscles and remaining ligament strong enough to hold the bone in place in lieu of the torn part.

So some women do bulk. What we need to do is not tell women they don’t bulk, because then the ones that do are seen as steroid using freaks. (thanks vacuum, practically the first comment said I don’t fucking exist. )

What we need, as a culture, is a more varied idea of female beauty. If Orlando Bloom and The Rock can both be hot, why can’t Allison Hannigan and China both be hot? There’s a place for ballerinas and a place for swordswomen. 80s trends are often mocked, but I know that when I look at a movie and the lead woman has strong, bare shoulders and she doesn’t end up out of breath in the action scenes, it was made in the 80s. Muscular wasn’t unfashionable then. In fact, some girls envied my arms.

Comment #58: Samantha Vimes  on  01/27  at  08:51 AM

I gotta say, I’m so glad this study came out, because I like to work out and I like to eat, and I like women who like to work out and like to eat smile  It’s way more realistic for most people in America to be fit than to be skinny.  Also, I think it’s a lot easier to be self-confident if you’re fit and strong - even if you’re “overweight” - than if you’re a tortured, starved, weak little thing trying to constantly fight your body.

I’ve never understood why people find skinny, weak looking people (women or men) attractive.  [As a straight guy] I’ll take muscular or voluptuous (or both!) any day over bag-of-bones.

Comment #59: Dave Fried  on  01/27  at  10:12 AM

I should say that the above is just my opinion - people should be free to be any way they want to be.  But I get really pissed when I see people (especially women) pressured to look a certain way.  Like the other day when I was at the gym and this guy was working out with his girlfriend.  She wanted to do more weight because what she was doing was too easy for her, and he wouldn’t let her (!) because he didn’t want her to “bulk up”.  I nearly lost it - I mean, she should work out however she wants to; however it satisfies her.  And just looking at her, she wasn’t going to “bulk up” anytime in this lifetime anyway.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine, and I wanted to give some love to the women out there who want to be fit and strong, no matter what size they are.

Comment #60: Dave Fried  on  01/27  at  10:16 AM

Call me a cynic, and I don’t disagree at all with the other explanations given, but I’ve long suspected that there’s more focus diet than exercise at least partly because it doesn’t work very well.

Comment #61: Dunc  on  01/27  at  10:25 AM

Did they do a survey of straight men’s perceptions of beauty, or do you know of one existing?

I think they rightfully realized what straight men think is not the issue.  Remember, they’re talking about women’s motivations. 

Part of the problem with polling men is that men are way more generous to themselves than they are to women.  This is probably just plain human nature, but it’s true.  So women have every reason to take a poll of men with a grain of salt.  I cannot tell you how many men have told me that they hate make-up on women, and how it’s because they were thinking of Tammy Faye Baker and don’t realize that they’ve often said this to women who are currently wearing make-up and the men don’t realize it.  Or I saw Sady at Tiger Beatdown point out that men who’ve dropped this line actually express concern for her health when presented her face without make-up.  They love make-up!  They just don’t like having their attention drawn to it.

Same with weight.  Every time you talk about it in a public forum, men crawl all over themselves to be the hero and assure women they’ll take us with love handles.  Okay, fine, but if women perceive that we get more sexual attention when we’re thinner, that’s not an illusion, we are not crazy, and who the fuck wants to be good enough when fabulous is presented as an option? It’s kind of condescending. 

But above all the demand that men’s opinions be considered the baseline of importance is that it reasserts the belief that a woman’s primary concern should be how she appears to men, and that this is more important than her health or her own desires for her own body.

Comment #62: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/27  at  11:30 AM

I will say, with that rant over, one flaw in the study is the focus on celebrities.  Celebrities get compared to other celebrities, and so the women polled absorbed the messages that attach to celebrities for being wasted away vs. being muscular.  Dieting until you’re weak and thin looking is generally rewarded with praise and attention in the gossip mags, whereas being muscular is often treated like a freak show.  In real life, however, I don’t think that a woman who loses fat by gaining muscle will get anything but praise for her toned body.  It’s all in how you frame it.

Comment #63: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/27  at  11:33 AM

@53: “And where women are concerned, I suspect this modern emphasis on our “health” is a thinly disguised proxy for shaming women for not looking a certain way.”

Yes!  Exactly!  Back when I was running 30+ miles a week, my chest all but disappeared and it was only having hefty muscles that kept me from being clinically underweight.  My husband gave me the “I’m so worried about your HEALTH” bullshit talk.  Like I was Mary-Kate Olson, despite my favorite pizza topping being fettucini alfredo.

Comment #64: Yawgmoth  on  01/27  at  12:26 PM

First of all, you don’t necessarily lose fat when you gain muscle, so you don’t look toned or muscular…you just look bulky.  I had a friend who was on the soccer team all through high school.  She did a lot of weight lifting as part of her training and had a lot of muscle.  But since she also had fat covering that muscle, you couldn’t tell by looking at her.  She just looked fat.  When she went away to college and stopped the training/soccer, she slimmed down a lot.  Mostly muscle loss, but she looked better by societal standards.  I think this is one thing many women are worried about. 

Also, to promote exercise as a method of weight loss (or just body fat loss, whatever) is doomed to failure.  It just doesn’t burn that many calories per hour unless you’re doing really hardcore stuff.  Even an hour a day is undoable for most people, and that’s of limited effectiveness.  The only way I’ve actually been able to commit to working out regularly is accepting that I’m not going to lose weight, I’m not going to look like Jessica Alba no matter what I do, and I’m doing this because I feel better when I do it and it’s important for managing my PCOS and keeping my cardiovascular health to an acceptable level.  But it is a big time sacrifice and difficult for anyone with a full time job and an average commute.

Comment #65: rebelliousjezebel  on  01/27  at  12:32 PM

@Amanda: “But above all the demand that men’s opinions be considered the baseline of importance is that it reasserts the belief that a woman’s primary concern should be how she appears to men, and that this is more important than her health or her own desires for her own body.”

Oh I don’t think men’s opinion ought to be anybody’s baseline.  Especially me since I suspect within-gender enforcement is way more relevant than out-of-gender enforcement.  But since it did come up in the study that indirect-assessment bit about how most women think men think about women really ought to get some kind of cross check with how men actually think about women.

Especially if, in classic double-bind fashion, the belief is used as a reason to rule out one of the most significant methods of health and/or weight management.

Other than that, though, I think you’re right that it doesn’t matter what men think.  The WSJ article isn’t really about what men think at all.

figleaf

Comment #66: figleaf  on  01/27  at  02:04 PM

@figleaf

I think “what the set of people whom I’m sexually attracted to think” is a consideration for most people, and perhaps should be, at least to an extent.  I want to know that my spouse finds me attractive, and I want her to know that she is attractive to me.

Obviously, we don’t want to make people feel that they need others’ approval to validate their worth.  But we are human, and sometimes we feel like we need that.  And it bothers me that there are many people - especially women, but also men - who do care what others think but are only getting one, societally-approved message, so they think that nobody finds them attractive when there really are a lot of people out there who could, or do.

I agree that it would be beneficial to determine (a) if women’s ideas of what men find attractive differ significantly from what men actually find attractive and vice-versa, and (b) *why*.

Comment #67: Dave Fried  on  01/27  at  02:34 PM

rebelliousjezebel, you are partially correct. The actual exercise you do doesn’t really burn that many calories, but it increases your metabolism if you keep at it. Muscles use calories, so if you add muscle your body will use more calories even when you’re sitting around.

In terms of BMI, it’s used so often because it’s easy to get and for most people is a pretty good measure. An interesting point is that people who are considered ‘overweight’ live longer on average than ‘normal’ weight people.

Comment #68: JohnL  on  01/27  at  02:38 PM

I love lifting weights because when I’m working on building muscle, I pay attention to what I’m eating in a way that utilizes food as fuel. I’m going to eat a lot of lean protein and fresh vegetables because I know I won’t have a good day lifting unless I do. And the results are amazing. I’ve tried restricting calories down to nothing and jogging, but even when I did lose weight, I was too tired and cranky to keep it up for very long, but with weight training, within six weeks I can definitely notice a difference, even if the number on the scale hasn’t moved much. The problem with aerobic activity and calorie restricting is that you’re going to burn muscle along with the fat, so when you eventually give up on your completely unsustainable diet and return to your old ways of eating, you’re going to gain it all back and more, because your caloric needs have gone down.

Comment #69: Jenny Dreadful  on  01/27  at  03:51 PM

, despite my favorite pizza topping being fettucini alfredo.

I don’t know whether to admire you or have a heart attack on your behalf.

Comment #70: Kyso K  on  01/27  at  04:00 PM

Yeah, I don’t know why there isn’t more emphasis on weight training for women; more muscle mass means a higher basal metabolic rate, which means the more calories you burn just sitting on your ass. Who wouldn’t want that?! Besides, I don’t think there’s *anything* hotter than a ripped lady who looks like she can kick your ass.  Sarah Conner made my little middle school self swoon. But hey, I’m a hairy-legged lesbian, so what do I know…

As for bulking up, I have *tried* to, desperately!  I have a very skinny build and I tried lifting weights to fill myself out a bit in all the right places, as well as to be stronger and more badass, of course.  I put myself on a very high weight/low rep regimen. Even when I was almost up to benching 100, there really wasn’t much of a size difference. VAST strength difference from when I started, but I think if you measured, I’d have barely changed. Sure there was some size gain, and I was definitely pleased with the results.  I looked fairly ripped even if I hadn’t actually gotten much bigger.  But I’m never going to really “bulk up”, not without extraordinary measures.

I think what is being lost a little bit here is that “bulky” is an entirely subjective term.  If you weight train, yes, your muscles will get bigger, but not nearly as much as a man’s would.  I think that’s the myth that so many women have bought into. And that’s why I think it’s misleading to say that yes, a woman can bulk up.  What you mean to say is that they gained some muscle mass (duh), but they didn’t become a masculine She-Hulk, and I think that’s what most women are thinking when they fear “bulking up”.

Comment #71: artdyke  on  01/27  at  04:42 PM

Let me join in the Stumptuous love! Not only is Krista smart, convincing and supportive, she’s a world-class smartass. (Example: Things you should not lift if you want to look like Madonna.)

Those of you considering starting training will find lots of info at the site, but I think this very simple 4 exercise routine by her colleague Geoff is a great start for anyone.

Oh, and Krista may still be doing personal training. It’s worth asking her about it if you’re in the Toronto area.

Comment #72: MaryL  on  01/27  at  05:41 PM

Another point on the bulking up thing…size does not necessarily mean strength and vice versa. The old saying “Watch out for those wiry little guys” is just as true for women. If you look at sports like running, cycling, speedskating, etc, there are some amazingly skinny women doing amazingly athletic things.  Watch the olympics and see those South Korean or Chinese short-trackers skating circles around women who outweigh them by 30 or more pounds.

Comment #73: Bruce from Missouri  on  01/27  at  05:48 PM

There are three basic types used for the human body in some weight training circles, endomorph, mesomorph, and ectomorph. These are used to describe the appearance of the individual and the ease or difficulty of gaining muscle for certain physiques. An endomorph almost always looks soft or flabby—no matter what activity they’ve chosen, they may look like they never lift a weight, even though some can become very muscular under the flab. An ectomorph, like what artdyke describes, will rarely bulk up or look fat even though strength can be developed. A mesomorph on the other hand will become beautifully cut as she goes through puberty, developing a muscular physique just by doing everyday things. I knew a classic mesomorph in high school who did nothing out of the ordinary except hang out with the rest of us,and had an upper body that looked like the boys in basketball. Her legs were big because she rode horses. I remember this because she was the only one in our class that looked that cut. The rest of us were trying to get close to that, not understanding that genetics precluded most of us from being able to look like that.

As an endomorph, I’ve given up trying to look a certain way and am now weight training purely for health and basic everyday strength.

Comment #74: LCforevah  on  01/27  at  05:52 PM

Same with weight.  Every time you talk about it in a public forum, men crawl all over themselves to be the hero and assure women they’ll take us with love handles.  Okay, fine, but if women perceive that we get more sexual attention when we’re thinner, that’s not an illusion, we are not crazy, and who the fuck wants to be good enough when fabulous is presented as an option? It’s kind of condescending.

No one wants to think of themselves as being shallow.

Comment #75: keshmeshi  on  01/27  at  07:12 PM

I’d be very interested in a study that shows what images of women men respond to, rather than this self-reporting nonsense.  I would guess that sizes 6-8 are more highly regarded, although with a number of men pursuing much skinnier women in real life out of concerns for status rather than genuine attraction.

Comment #76: keshmeshi  on  01/27  at  07:18 PM

Jeff, figleaf, etc.

I spent a good quarter of an hour once arguing with a bloke about whether even slightly noticable abs could look sexy on a woman.  I said yes, he said no. So…while anecdote is not data….I wouldn’t be too certain that the statistics would be much different if it were men that were surveyed.

LCforevah,

Back when I was a younger teen and my sister was in college, I actually had better definition in my upper arms than she did - at a resting position, anyway - despite the fact that I played soccer while she swam.  Granted, I’ll never have her shoulders (Think Janet Evans.  No really, people have remarked upon it.), and I sure as hell don’t look like that now, but, yeah.

JohnL

rebelliousjezebel was also talking about body size and not just calories burned.  The point isn’t that cardio/increasing overall metabolism doesn’t burn calories, but that that it doesn’t becessarily burn enough fat specifically to decrease overall size.  Especially as the reason for the increased metabolism is usually to maintain those muscles that may be hiding under all that fat.

Comment #77: jennygadget  on  01/27  at  10:39 PM

I’m taking an aerobics class that involves weights. By the time we are through I am DONE. And I only use 3 lb weights. Sad isn’t it.

Comment #78: kiki  on  01/28  at  12:27 AM

And frankly, this surprises me, that it’s still this way. I’ve been working out for damn near thirty years, and so have a lot of other women. Yet the clothing industry still hasn’t caught up.

Clothing manufacturers appear to want to promote the image of being small and weak as much as possible.  Nevermind that larger women are a significant portion of the marketshare.

Comment #79: Ursula  on  01/28  at  03:35 AM

inthepost #20: Joining the chorus of “this”. For years (well, decades) I planned to start exercising as soon as I lost 50 lbs, because exercising in my current shape would have been silly-looking. Finally a friend who is about as wide as tall dragged me to the gym. It’s an exercise in frustration—I’m not getting stronger, still cannot run 400 yards, and my hip/waist ratio has got slightly worse—but it stopped my back pain and that alone is worth the membership fee.

Comment #80: inge  on  01/28  at  06:44 PM

Thank you, Amanda. I have been saying this for years. I look fucking great when I’m all toned up (like now! Yay! Grad school work-avoidance!). I look like shit when I’m skinny - before I was diagnosed with celiac disease, I weighed 105, and I’m 5’7”. It was disgusting. Now I weigh 140 and I feel fantastic, I look fantastic, and I’m the healthiest patient my GI doc has by a long shot. I can ride my bike across this hilly town to his office and be able to talk when I get there. smile

Comment #81: F. McGee  on  01/28  at  11:21 PM

I used to get all angsty about going to the gym.  I work at a University so there are more than your average amount of 19 year old co-eds being nubile all over the place.  But then I realized, that all of those girls, women, all of us, we’re all so busy worrying about our own perceived fatness, that very few of them had any worry left over for mine. 

Now once in a while there will be some snide little shit, but they are definitely in the minority, and generally I just smile, nod and offer to bench press them.  Or make a big show of doubling or trebling what they just struggled through on a machine, doing a set, then shrugging and bumping it higher.

That said, when I first start working out and doing weights, I gain muscle before losing fat, so I have to force myself to remember that I’m going to get bumpier before I get smoother, and that bumpier is usually a short lived stage. 

Also, it drives me nuts when other women come up to me when I’m going high weight reps and ask me if I’m afraid I’ll get big.  Sweetheart, I haven’t been smaller than an 18 in 12 years.  GET isn’t even in the equation.

Comment #82: GeekGirlsRule  on  01/29  at  06:36 PM

I remember asking a friend of mine—he’d trained for competitive MMA—about working out, explaining that I didn’t want freaky insanity muscles. He politely took me aside and explained that he’d been working out for quite some time, and he’d seen a lot of things, but one thing he’d never, ever seen was a man with huge, bulky biceps standing in front of a mirror wearing a bewildered expression, asking where the fuck these things came from.

Comment #83: grendelkhan  on  02/01  at  01:47 AM
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