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Next entry: On CounterSpin this afternoon Previous entry: Remember When Lying Was Wrong?

Let the hideous beasts out of the closet

Religion

The post below devolved into the same conversation that often happens when an atheist uses the same public forums aggressively used by believers to spread their beliefs—-i.e., speaking up in books and websites.  Why do atheists have to go around making the nice religious people uncomfortable?  The religious people invoked in defending the religious privilege—-the right not to be made uncomfortable, a privilege not extended to non-believers—-are always the Platonic ideal of non-offensive believer, someone who barely believes really, keeps it to themselves, has no moral differences from an atheist, stays the course on the liberal party line and doesn’t squirm over Teh Gay or Teh Abortion, and maybe even agrees that “under god” should be taken out of the Pledge.  We all like liberal Christians, so can atheists just stay in the closet and not upset the nice ones?

It’s actually a really damning argument, and has the power to shame really well.  Which is why I’m glad that Dawkins in The God Delusion draws a lot on feminism for his ideas, because it helped me realized what the argument for benevolent religious privilege reminds me of—-the hard to argue against arguments for benevolent male dominance.  You see this argument in many different forms, no doubt employed because it assumes that pressure from outside the mainstream is somehow more coercive than pressure inside the mainstream, and therefore a strike against freedom.  Call it “choice feminism” when used to argue for things like breast implants and the marital name change being outside the bounds of criticism, or “chivalry” when arguing for traditional domestic gender roles.  Classic version (unsurprisingly, lean on religion): the argument that women should submit to their husbands, based on Biblical rules.  The justification is that men are exhorted to love their wives.  In other words, it’s a benevolent dictatorship, so no one is harmed, until the meanie mean feminists start in with the criticism. 


There are two major problems with the benevolent male dominance argument:

1) By extending power to benevolent dictators, you also extend it to tyrannical ones.  A culture of male dominance cultivates wife-beating, rape, emotional neglect, and child abuse, even if there are a substantial number of good men who don’t exploit their privileges. 
2) Even in the ideal benevolent situations, there’s something lost by the stifling of women’s potential this way.  One of the important revelations of the feminist movement was how even the submission to good, kind men was demoralizing and seeded resentments.  And it damaged men’s potential, too. Both the dominant and underclass of a benevolent dictatorship are lessened for being in it. 

So it goes with the automatic privileging of belief over non-belief on the theory that really nice believers shouldn’t have to face titles like The God Delusion on the bookshelf, making them squirmy with cognitive dissonance.  It seems harmless enough on its surface to coddle the kind believer by shutting up and staying in the closet.  But the very existence of the religious privilege extended by virtue of how nice some believers are is used by the ugly fuckers, just as wife beaters rely on the privilege extended to all men, because most don’t beat their wives.  The Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons of the world exist because it’s rude to challenge religious belief, and they exploit that taboo for all its worth, bundling every kind of bigotry and evil into the container labeled “My Religious Belief That’s Above Criticism”.  Sure, within a handful of liberal social circles, there’s fine lines drawn between religions that are okay to criticize and those that aren’t, but as I learned after the John Edwards blow-out, the mainstream view is that the religious exemption from criticism generally extends far enough to cover Catholic abuse of its own followers, at least on the contraception debate.

The other thing is harder to measure, but I think it’s the same problem—-when something is limiting potential, it’s hard to say what it’s limiting until the limits are thrown off and people really begin to explore.  If atheists get to come out of the closet and start drawing more attention to the way that atheism is the logical result of rationalism, then doors could be opened that we don’t even completely know yet.  Certainly one thing that could be changed is the absolute requirement that candidates be pious to run for much more than dogcatcher, and getting religion out of politics would do Americans and the world a whole lot of good. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:53 PM • (266) Comments

The Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons of the world exist because it’s rude to challenge religious belief, and they exploit that taboo for all its worth, bundling every kind of bigotry and evil into the container labeled “My Religious Belief That’s Above Criticism”.

I think that’s a bit of a reach—asshole preachers have always existed. It’s only recently (in historical terms) that there’s been a real push back against religion as the dominant power structure, and a move toward more rational arguments for power. They maintain their current power by exploiting the taboo, I think, and they are getting ever more irrational as they see their control slipping.

They’re losing their power the same way anti-same-sex marriage advocates are losing theirs—they’re losing the next generation. More and more of my students are atheist or agnostic and are pretty open about it. My daughter, who will be a college freshperson this year (holy fuck, I feel old now) identifies as an atheist on her facebook page and to her friends, and she grew up largely in south Mississippi—and she’s not alone among her friends. So I have some hope that we’re going to win the long battle on this.

Comment #1: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  07/10  at  01:16 PM

“Let the hideous beasts out of the closet”

The one consistent thing I’ve heard over and over from religionists that I’ve been around and spoken to regarding atheism is the idea that somehow there is an immoral and savage beast inside every human which will be unleashed if the moderating influence of religion was removed, which will result in chaos.

And because it’s one of those irrational, illogical, and unsupported beliefs that somehow seems to “make sense”, it’s almost impossible to counter.

It reminds me of the way many people (most of them probably religionists) think about the possibility of widespread marriage rights for LGBT people as somehow bringing about the downfall of civilization…

You can’t argue with an insane belief…

Comment #2: MikeEss  on  07/10  at  01:19 PM

Well said. I certainly think that it’s no coincidence that the atheist, feminist, and science blogospheres overlap pretty significantly: Science and feminism both work pretty well at making people re-evaluate their religious beliefs and once people do that they often become atheists. And once you’ve discarded god there’s less reason (and much less ability to justify) to subjugate women. Now of course there are plenty of counter examples to this, but there is a surprisingly large amount of overlap among these groups.

Comment #3: Max Polun  on  07/10  at  01:21 PM

And because it’s one of those irrational, illogical, and unsupported beliefs that somehow seems to “make sense”, it’s almost impossible to counter.

Oh, I don’t know. When someone used it on me, I countered with, “so the only reason you don’t rape and pillage is because God told you not to? Get away from me you fucking psycho.” Even if he didn’t get it, the people standing around us did.

Comment #4: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  07/10  at  01:22 PM

Yes, historically, maybe, Incertus.  But historically atheists didn’t even exist.  So I think the automatic assumption that now is exactly like then doesn’t work here. 

Nowadays, because of religious tolerance, right wingers have a serious problem on their hands.  And so now they exploit the privileging of belief over non-belief to maintain their power.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/10  at  01:24 PM

I’ll never understand why saying, “Your beliefs are wrong.  That’s unfortunate” is somehow worse than saying, “Your beliefs are wrong.  That’s unfortunate for you here and now, but you’ll also spend eternity being tortured for it.”

As condemnation goes, the basic atheist conceit is pretty mild compared to the basic Christian conceit.

Comment #6: Ferox  on  07/10  at  01:28 PM

The one consistent thing I’ve heard over and over from religionists that I’ve been around and spoken to regarding atheism is the idea that somehow there is an immoral and savage beast inside every human which will be unleashed if the moderating influence of religion was removed, which will result in chaos.

When I started dating my husband, who grew up in an evangelical household, the son and grandson of preachers, he told me that in the world view he grew up with “people like you” didn’t exist. “People like me” are people who aren’t religious and still have moral values and behave in an ethical way.

Comment #7: chingona  on  07/10  at  01:28 PM

Nowadays, because of religious tolerance, right wingers have a serious problem on their hands.  And so now they exploit the privileging of belief over non-belief to maintain their power

Indeed, Amanda.  One of the things that’s annoyed me is how the response to the religious right has been more god-talk in the public sphere and a retreat from secularism.  There has been a greater sense of the need to declare “My God is different than their God and thinks we should have different policy.” (Call me when God’s a citizen.)

Kennedy’s Dallas speech would be a campaign-killer today.

Comment #8: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/10  at  01:29 PM

Amanda,
I should have been clearer—I agree with your overall argument. They absolutely use that privilege to maintain their ever-diminishing grasp on power, which is why they keep the outrage amp cranked to 11 for even the slightest perceived infraction. They still use it on each other as well, but we’re an easier target since so few people claim to like us right now.

Comment #9: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  07/10  at  01:32 PM

>>But historically atheists didn’t even exist.

I seriously doubt that. It reminds me of a comment in a documentary (about the life of a USA female serial killer named Ayleen, don’t remember the last name) where one of her acquaintances says casually in an interview that in her days (that would be the 1960s) gays didn’t exist. That there were no such things.

Of course, in the past the state of atheological philosophy was quite poor, and before the rise of naturalism I would say most atheists didn’t really have solid logical reasons for their lack of belief in the existence of some sort of God (hence why many of the educated were deists rather than atheists).

Comment #10: BlackBloc  on  07/10  at  01:33 PM

Identifying as an Atheist is difficult for me because theologically, it is based in a theist/God as dude in the sky, kind of understanding. I am a thealogian/theologian, M.Div, and much of what I’ve studied has been cultural/contextual and not necessarily about belief in God, but religion/theology in relationship with communities and worldviews. Maybe its just this, good Theology or Thealogy doesn’t really have this Zeus figure God dude smiting and creating the world out of nothing, but rather, God as process or metaphor for that which connects us. Since I can’t say that I’m against energy/matter/physics, I can’t say I’m an atheist, though of course, the majority of Christians would indeed call me an Atheist. I referenced Dawkins in my senior seminar project because his God, the very anthrocentric view of God, is based in shoddy theology. As someone who trained for the ministry, I can tell you, besides blaming thousands of years of tradition, I also blame ministers for all to often thinking, “I can’t tell my congregations what I really think, I need to keep it veiled in the mysteries of the tradition and hope that those open to discerning myth from metaphor get it and those who don’t, well, they’re not ready and I have a mortgage to pay.” Now, I’m not trying to justify superstitions or encourage anymore scientists not to say, “Evolution is based in evidence, not belief and therefore, is not something that should be companioned by Creationist theology; that is religion which is not science.” Evolution is far more spiritually inspiring than Zeus/Yawheh and his child sacrifice crappola.  But it is also based in rationality and dressing it up as spiritual can be dangerous because it just reinforces the notion that “evolution” is out to destroy churches. So, I guess, I’m an atheist who doesn’t accept the binary atheist/theist—no God to know God, I guess.

Comment #11: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  01:34 PM

It is interesting how the context of acceptable belief has changed.  Used to be, being the wrong type of Christian was enough to get you abused. Parenthetically, it still is - ask the more fiery evangelicals how they feel about Catholics.  Now that we have to live with people who believe in widely differing imaginary things, ‘belief’ becomes more important, while the kind of belief becomes less so.

A number of writers have challenged the ‘leave nice believers’ alone bit along similar lines: Nice believers provide cover for the crazy ones.  How should we determine which religious beliefs are non-harmful?  Criticism of an idea should always be acceptable, but it should be couched in the proper way.  It’s awful to say things like “Muslims are destroying the fabric of our country,” but it should be fine to say “the belief that women shouldn’t be allowed to associate with unrelated men is toxic, and anti-woman.”

Comment #12: JoeBlu  on  07/10  at  01:35 PM

BlackBloc:

Aileen Wuornos:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aileen_Wuornos

Comment #13: JoeBlu  on  07/10  at  01:36 PM

I’ll never understand why saying, “Your beliefs are wrong.  That’s unfortunate” is somehow worse than saying, “Your beliefs are wrong.  That’s unfortunate for you here and now, but you’ll also spend eternity being tortured for it.”

As condemnation goes, the basic atheist conceit is pretty mild compared to the basic Christian conceit.

And in my experience, most atheists don’t go around volunteering the first comment. We may say something similar if the subject comes up, but we don’t tend to throw it out there on our own. Most Christians, however, they’re another story, largely because their beliefs require it.

Comment #14: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  07/10  at  01:37 PM

Or to put it another way, Incertus, men used to have full rights to beat their wives with impunity.  But then it became less socially acceptable, so they resorted to hiding behind privilege justified with the chivalry argument.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/10  at  01:38 PM

Thealogian,

Many major world religions would call that a pretty big heresy.  The Catholic Church would send you right out, since it’s an essential part of the faith that God intervenes in the world in real ways, not as a process.  Very few of the religious general public believe in anything so subtle as ‘God is a process and a metaphor for our common bond as people’ when their holy books claim God as a real presence who sends messengers and walks among people and grants wishes, etc, etc.  I realize a lot of highly studied theologians have this very different set of beliefs, but they need to become influential before I’ll accept that as a general definition for religion.

Comment #16: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  01:41 PM

BlackBloc, you’re splitting hairs.  Historically, atheists didn’t exist in the sense that historically gay people didn’t exist.  The behavior and thoughts were there, but society so throughly avoided making space for that identity that it can be said not to have existed in any meaningful sense.  A completely private atheist is like a tree falling in the forest.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/10  at  01:42 PM

Whoops!  The above comment by ‘Thealogian’ addressing himself is really me talking to him.  Wake up, brain!  Also, if someone with super-mod powers is feeling benevolent, correcting my name there would be less confusing.

Comment #18: JoeBlu  on  07/10  at  01:43 PM

I’m glad someone else noted Prof. Dawkins has good feminist credibility. In this British television series “The root of all evil” we see the only time I’ve seen him argry; this is when a Islamic fellow criticised the western world for “what westerners allow their women to wear”. He took extreme exception to the words “allow” and the use of a possessive. It did me good to see him feel like that.

Comment #19: Hypatia  on  07/10  at  01:56 PM

Of course, in the past the state of atheological philosophy was quite poor,

Outside the Western world that’s not necessarily the case. In much of Confucianism, “Heaven” is nothing but the natural order, which reacts to human doings but lacks all independent initiative itself and is almost completely depersonalized. Hence the exclusive concentration on what people were doing—if people did what they should, Heaven would automatically respond by granting them blessings.

Even when gods were posited in the Chinese tradition, they sometimes came out as the enemy, to be resisted or at least evaded. The strange thousand-year quest for physical immortality was one result of this—as one “immortal” was said to have remarked, why would anyone want to go to Heaven when you have to suck up to your superiors there even more than on earth? The conquest of death (death being the ultimate means that The Man keeps us in line) and eternal life on earth was preferable to ascending into the clouds and dealing with the heavenly bureaucracy.

Comment #20: sunsin  on  07/10  at  01:59 PM

The behavior and thoughts were there, but society so throughly avoided making space for that identity that it can be said not to have existed in any meaningful sense.  A completely private atheist is like a tree falling in the forest.

And on those rare occasions when they did venture into public life—Thomas Paine, for example—they were immediately slapped down not only by the religious folks, but by people who probably agreed with them secretly.

Comment #21: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  07/10  at  02:00 PM

Maybe its just this, good Theology or Thealogy doesn’t really have this Zeus figure God dude smiting and creating the world out of nothing, but rather, God as process or metaphor for that which connects us.

Isn’t that just a word game, though? If you define “God” as “community”, then sure, “god” exists because communities exist, but with that kind of redefinition game I can make anything exist simply by redefining it as something that already does. I can make purple unicorns exist by defining “purple unicorns” as “bacon cheeseburgers”, and then you’d be hard-pressed to deny the existence of the BK Double Stacker.

But it should be obvious to everybody that I was playing a word-game, and that you are, too. The question is not whether “god” exists when “god” means “love”, or “community”, or “the human spirit”; the question is whether or not gods exist as defined in practical use, and if you’re rejecting the position of an intercessory God who’s concerned about your life and your actions and will intervene in this life on your behalf (as well as punish you in the next life), then you’re an atheist, it’s pretty simple. And you should have no shame in identifying that way. To be atheist is not to deny the importance of (for lack of a better term) spirituality; it just means that spirituality can’t be based on things that don’t exist.

Comment #22: Chet  on  07/10  at  02:03 PM

Why do atheists have to go around making the nice religious people uncomfortable?

I hope this isn’t a reference to the conversation started by Opoponax. She never said that religious people should be made comfortable at the expense of the non-religious - she just said that people with religious beliefs should be respected as fellow human beings, as long as their beliefs aren’t hurting anyone.

I hope no one disagrees with that, or thinks that a ‘good’ atheist goes around telling religionists that they are ostriches with their heads in the sand.

Comment #23: Faye  on  07/10  at  02:05 PM

Let me just mention my own little hobby horse: Teaching people when they’re tiny defenseless children to believe things for which there is little or no actually evidency evidence is pernicious in itself. It teaches the ability to believe six impossible things before breakfast and thus to neoconism and other irrational non-theocratic beliefs.

Comment #24: Shell Goddamnit  on  07/10  at  02:06 PM

The behavior and thoughts were there, but society so throughly avoided making space for that identity that it can be said not to have existed in any meaningful sense.

Part of the problem is that modern fundamentalists have succeeded in projecting their own modern notions of faith and belief on the past.  If you lived in a Puritan town where you would be put in the stocks for not going to church, you’d go to church unless you had a strong religious belief otherwise (which was why the Quakers were so severely persecuted in New England, up to and including being hanged).  During the religous wars in England during the Tudor period, most people would go along with whatever the king or queen decreed was the official religion that week because for the most part, it wasn’t that important to them.  They would go rather than face punishment or pay fines, but that’s not exactly an indicator of deep religious belief by the majority.

The whole idea of having a personal relationship with God didn’t even appear in Christianity until John Wesley came along, and yet modern fundamentalists act like it’s something that has always existed in Christianity.  Don’t forget, they’re projecting their ideas onto the past just as fast as furiously.

Comment #25: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  02:08 PM

the question is whether or not gods exist as defined in practical use, and if you’re rejecting the position of an intercessory God who’s concerned about your life and your actions and will intervene in this life on your behalf (as well as punish you in the next life), then you’re an atheist, it’s pretty simple

Chet, by your definition, the majority of Christians 300 years ago would be atheists.  The whole notion of a personal God who’s interested in the everyday doings of human beings is a very modern one.

Comment #26: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  02:11 PM

I think that’s a bit of a reach—asshole preachers have always existed.

Sure, but before radio and television they only had access to a few hundred people each. You couldn’t build a megachurch when people didn’t have cars to bring them there.

Comment #27: pepito  on  07/10  at  02:12 PM

Sure, but before radio and television they only had access to a few hundred people each.

Guess they don’t cover the Great Revival period in American history in school anymore. A horse and a lot of time on your hands can get you a pretty wide reach…

Comment #28: Faye  on  07/10  at  02:23 PM

“the question is whether or not gods exist as defined in practical use, and if you’re rejecting the position of an intercessory God who’s concerned about your life and your actions and will intervene in this life on your behalf (as well as punish you in the next life), then you’re an atheist, it’s pretty simple

Chet, by your definition, the majority of Christians 300 years ago would be atheists.  The whole notion of a personal God who’s interested in the everyday doings of human beings is a very modern one. “

I agree that Chet is way overstating the case; but I think so are you. If there’s not a god interested in the everyday doings of human beings, wtf is sin? Adultery? Gluttony, sloth, pride? Meat on Friday? Mixed fibers? these are not everyday doings?

Comment #29: Shell Goddamnit  on  07/10  at  02:25 PM

The whole notion of a personal God who’s interested in the everyday doings of human beings is a very modern one.

You’re really going to have to back this up with some evidence.

The “Jesus is my buddy/best friend” school of theology is a modern one, and maybe that’s what you mean, but i’m curious what you are referring to, exactly.

Comment #30: Tyro  on  07/10  at  02:26 PM

The whole notion of a personal God who’s interested in the everyday doings of human beings is a very modern one.

Actually, the early “proto-atheists” of Hellenic philosophy - Atomists, Epicurians, Pyrrhians and such - based their rejection of the gods precisely upon the idea that gods who intervened in human affairs were an absurdity. For the most part they developed pantheistic or deistic ideas out of this observation but they did lay the foundation for the naturalism of the 16th century that gave us modern atheism. As the psuedo-thealogian (sorry, JoeBlu, had to) points out above, god’s intervention in human affairs is taken for granted by most western orthodoxies. It’s the idea of a “personal god” who you can personally identify with and understand His will/mind that is resurgent in modern times. They used to call that “gnosticism” or “catharism” and they killed the all living hell out of people who espoused such views (see the Albigensian Crusade).

Comment #31: Sarcastro  on  07/10  at  02:29 PM

the idea that somehow there is an immoral and savage beast inside every human which will be unleashed if the moderating influence of religion was removed, which will result in chaos.
And because it’s one of those irrational, illogical, and unsupported beliefs that somehow seems to “make sense”, it’s almost impossible to counter.

Except perhaps by studies of moral reasoning

Comment #32: calliopejane  on  07/10  at  02:29 PM

I hope no one disagrees with that, or thinks that a ‘good’ atheist goes around telling religionists that they are ostriches with their heads in the sand.

I’m pretty sure atheism doesn’t have any behavior code at all - or if there is one I didn’t get the memo. So I’d say the only thing that makes one a “good atheist” is not believing in any god, and the only thing that makes one a “bad atheist” is believing in some god or gods. (The Pope, for instance, is a terrible atheist). Atheists can be good or bad people, but I think describing someone as “not a good atheist” based on their behavior doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

My mother told me you could get fairly far in Judaism accepting God as “the good in humanity” - you have to drop pretty much all Biblical literalism to do it, but it works for fitting in with the community and isn’t incompatible with atheism.

Comment #33: pepito  on  07/10  at  02:30 PM

Guess they don’t cover the Great Revival period in American history in school anymore.

Didn’t go to school in America.

Comment #34: pepito  on  07/10  at  02:32 PM

Pepito, thank you for the clarification. I guess what I was trying to say is that every so often, about 1 out of 100 atheists thinks that it’s some kind of atheist duty to aggravate all religious people and tell them that all religious beliefs are harmful, stupid, and backward. I only ever seem to meet them online, though, so I don’t think they really exist - I think they are just trolls.

I hope.

Comment #35: Faye  on  07/10  at  02:35 PM

Didn’t go to school in America.

Zing! And, once again, I am forced to admit that I do have a bias, even if I don’t mean to.

Fair enough. But, yes, there have been lots of “megachurches” in America that were spread apart by distance but all held sway to a single, charismatic traveling preacher.

Sorry about the Ameri-centrism on my part.

Comment #36: Faye  on  07/10  at  02:36 PM

I’m not singling out Opop.  The “meanie atheist” argument is shared by many, because it really does upset the social order to be an outspoken atheist.  I’m not trying to suggest that Richard Dawkins doesn’t upset people.  He upsets a lot of people, very nice people.  But feminism upsets a lot of very nice men, I’ve found, who don’t think their privilege should be challenged because they’ve very nice and would never abuse a woman.  But their niceness doesn’t make the system better or more fair, and it’s their very niceness that makes it important for them, as people, to seriously consider if there isn’t a better way of living in the world.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/10  at  02:38 PM

When I started dating my husband, who grew up in an evangelical household, the son and grandson of preachers, he told me that in the world view he grew up with “people like you” didn’t exist. “People like me” are people who aren’t religious and still have moral values and behave in an ethical way.

This is the biggest argument I can think of for atheists to be out and proud.  Unless people around us have the example of atheists who are good, decent people to have as friends, co-workers and neighbors, they’ll never learn that you can, in fact, be moral without the threat of Eternal Hellfire hanging over your head.  This is necessary not because I think it’s going to turn evangelicals into atheists (cool if it did, but that’s not my point), but because this realization is critical to the kind of independent moral reasoning that religious people are going to have to do in order to relinquish the more oppressive and bigoted so-called “moral” tenets of their belief systems.  You know, stuff like sexism, racism, anti-gay bigotry, all that stuff.

Comment #38: nolo  on  07/10  at  02:38 PM

”..and maybe even agrees that “under god” should be taken out of the Pledge. “

IMO, whenever this is said, it should be phrased “...taken BACK out of the Pledge”, to make the point that it was shoe-horned in there in the ‘50s and wasn’t part of the original Pledge.

The Pledge scans a lot better without it in there too.


(BTW, do other countries have similar secular rituals??  It’s such an anomaly in American public life.)

Comment #39: Eric, Rejector of Memes  on  07/10  at  02:39 PM

“The question is not whether “god” exists when “god” means “love”, or “community”, or “the human spirit”; the question is whether or not gods exist as defined in practical use, and if you’re rejecting the position of an intercessory God who’s concerned about your life and your actions and will intervene in this life on your behalf (as well as punish you in the next life), then you’re an atheist, it’s pretty simple. And you should have no shame in identifying that way.”

Okay, I didn’t explain myself as well as I should have. I get what you’re saying in terms of semantics, semantics piss me off too. I’m not ashamed on not believing in an anthrocentric sky-daddy and I’ve told men and women studying for the ministry as much when engaging in classroom and pulpit debates. My problem, and perhaps this is because I have studied too much theology, the term atheist is very particularly aimed at a dichotomy that I reject in the first place, belief in sky-daddy of the Book or rejection of that specific sky-daddy of the Book. Particularly in Dawkins book, its very specifically aimed and doesn’t account for how Atheism as we know it today is also culturally constructed. Really, its my beef with Dawkins, whose book I’ve read and used, limits his argument. Also, perhaps this is a generational thing in my particular church, I’m a Unitarian Universalist and I grew up in community with lots of Atheists/Humanists, some which had a nuanced view and some who had a bare minimum appreciation for how some religious traditions, though perhaps based in fairy tales, has some redeeming value in it. My generation seems more comfortable, particularly among those who might identify as atheists, in not seeing the situation in such a stark light. Like, if the minister selects a gospel hymn to sing in the context of talking about Liberation Theology, few young people will storm out of the church because the word “God” is used, though you will have a couple elderly Humanists do so. So, maybe this is my baggage from my tradition which produced the Atheist Manifesto in the early 20th C. and from my education, which allows me to step beyond Sky-Daddy and reclaim. So, what I can do is try to challenge sky-daddy theology and at the same time advocate for rational thinking. But I’m not calling myself an Atheist because it accepts duality, at least in its grammatical construction, that won’t work for me.

peace

p.s. Oh, by the way, for the person who called me “him,” I’m female. More than 50% of the students at my Div school, a very liberal Divinity School, are women.

Comment #40: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  02:41 PM

I’ve been talking to a lot of people lately about how atheists need to come out of the closet, so I’m sort of tickled to see the same analogy being made here.  That Gallup poll really shook me up, and I decided that the reason people so disrespected atheists is because they didn’t know they knew any—just like people’s attitudes toward homosexuals a generation ago.  So we really need to come out of the closet and let people know that we’re here, we’re atheists, and we’re not going away.  I see people like Dawkins and Myers as analogous to Act Up.  I wasn’t, and am not, crazy about the loud in your face antics, but they have their uses.  Me, I’m just trying to wear my button that says, “Atheist” in places unsafe as well as safe.  With mixed results.

MKK

Comment #41: Mary Kay  on  07/10  at  02:45 PM

“The whole idea of having a personal relationship with God didn’t even appear in Christianity until John Wesley came along, and yet modern fundamentalists act like it’s something that has always existed in Christianity.  Don’t forget, they’re projecting their ideas onto the past just as fast as furiously.”

Bullshit, see, Augustine; see Margery Kempe; see Origen, fuck, see Aquinas.

Comment #42: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  02:45 PM

Re:  theology, this comic is enlightening.

Comment #43: Cain  on  07/10  at  02:46 PM

Faye: those atheists do exist in RL, and they tend to be on college campuses.  At my local campus, the Purdue NonTheists had a ‘Fiction for Fiction’ event, where they’d trade a Bible or a Gita or a Koran for some Gulliver’s Travels or some HP Lovecraft or something.  I thought it was hilarious, but mostly because I get interrogated by Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons every third day or so, or that guy with his ‘burn in hell’ sign.  Even most of the people in NonTheists seem pretty chill - they mostly hang out and have a community, since none of them belong to a church.  Live and let live is a statement I agree with up until a religious community starts telling me how to act, or that I’m going to hell.  Since most of them do this, I’m fine with aggravating right back.  I never taunt Hindus, since they don’t try to convert me or tell me I’m wrong (except the Hare Krishnas).

Comment #44: JoeBlu  on  07/10  at  02:48 PM

I think there’s confusion about the “personal god” thing.  When Dawkins uses it, he’s not talking about the very narrow “Jesus is my buddy” god, but the idea that god listens to and answers prayers, or really is even interested in human beings.  If your religion has a concept of sin that offends god, you have a personal god in this view.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/10  at  02:51 PM

Apologies, Thealogian.  Still blinded by my own gender-centrism, frequently.  I grew up in a Catholic house (very few female theologians there).  I shouldn’t assume.

Comment #46: JoeBlu  on  07/10  at  02:52 PM

This is the biggest argument I can think of for atheists to be out and proud.  Unless people around us have the example of atheists who are good, decent people to have as friends, co-workers and neighbors, they’ll never learn that you can, in fact, be moral without the threat of Eternal Hellfire hanging over your head.

And we can see how well this has worked for the LGBT community as well—LGBT people are far more accepted now than they were when the closet was nailed shut, and the wider that closet door opens, the more people accept it, to the point where people my daughter’s age aren’t fazed by it in the least (for the most part). The more atheists are willing to say openly that they are atheist, the less weird it will seem to believers, and the more quickly the world will change.

Comment #47: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  07/10  at  02:54 PM

Live and let live is a statement I agree with up until a religious community starts telling me how to act, or that I’m going to hell.

JoeBlue, you’ll get complete agreement from me on this.

Though I am sorry to hear that the Troll Atheists do exist in Real Life. But every religion (or non-religion) has it’s haters, I guess.

Comment #48: Faye  on  07/10  at  02:55 PM

Chet, by your definition, the majority of Christians 300 years ago would be atheists. 

I think the majority of Christians now are probably atheists. Certainly anybody who defines “God” as “community” or “love” or “the human spirit” or whatever is an atheist.

For the most part, and to the gain of the human race, I think most people find it very difficult to really believe in something that isn’t true, even if they think they’re supposed to. I think that’s why faith is always viewed as being “personal”; it’s a way for most people to conceal what they view as a personal failing - the failing to have real faith in God.

The whole notion of a personal God who’s interested in the everyday doings of human beings is a very modern one.

There’s hardly anything new about the idea of a God who answers prayer and judges us after death; that’s been in the feature set from version 1.0. Sure, the “personal love relationship with God” bullshit is fairly new, but if God hadn’t always been assumed to be super-interested in who you were fucking and fucking over, the Ten Commandments wouldn’t exist.

Comment #49: Chet  on  07/10  at  02:57 PM

I agree that Chet is way overstating the case; but I think so are you. If there’s not a god interested in the everyday doings of human beings, wtf is sin? Adultery? Gluttony, sloth, pride? Meat on Friday? Mixed fibers? these are not everyday doings?

Sarcastro covered it but, yes, I mean “personal God” as in the kind of Buddy Christ who will help you win your football game.  Not to mention the huge differences in the assumptions about that level of interest—you had everything from Deism to having your own little pet Jesus at your beck and call.

Bullshit, see, Augustine; see Margery Kempe; see Origen, fuck, see Aquinas.

I would have to bow to your superior knowledge but, again, I was under the impression that the whole idea of being “born again” and having a direct, personal relationship with a personal God wasn’t around until John Wesley.  If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong.

Comment #50: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  03:01 PM

My problem, and perhaps this is because I have studied too much theology, the term atheist is very particularly aimed at a dichotomy that I reject in the first place, belief in sky-daddy of the Book or rejection of that specific sky-daddy of the Book. Particularly in Dawkins book, its very specifically aimed and doesn’t account for how Atheism as we know it today is also culturally constructed.

Are there gods, or aren’t there?

I don’t see how you could have any less cultural construction than that. All the rest is word-games - “what do you mean by ‘god’?”

My generation seems more comfortable, particularly among those who might identify as atheists, in not seeing the situation in such a stark light.

Either there are such things as gods, or there aren’t. That’s not a “stark light”, that’s a function of the universe we live in, where things larger than subatomic particles have to exist in well-defined states. Either God is a real entity, or he’s a mythological concept. Regardless of what you mean when you say “God”, there’s no middle ground. And if what you mean when you say “God” is Spinoza’s God, or “the good in human beings” (I think that’s a great definition BTW), then you’re an atheist who’s trying to hide it.

You don’t need to hide it, though. It’s not a personal failing. I wish more people who hide inside the church and just “go through the motions” (like my old pastor used to say) would realize that. I wish my dad would realize that.

Comment #51: Chet  on  07/10  at  03:10 PM

There’s an awful lot of preachers out there who’d be out of work if the people who “just go through the motions” actually stopped doing that.  Empty pews and empty collection plates replacing empty observance would be an excellent example for said pastors of the dangers of “be careful what you ask for ...”

Comment #52: seeker6079  on  07/10  at  03:23 PM

There seems to be some confusion between atheist and agnostic going on.

Years ago I talked to a Wiccan priest who had attended seminary school after getting out of the Navy.
His theory was the more a person studied religion theirs or anyone else’s the more agnostic they became.

My reading of Thealogian isn’t that he’s atheist, though many religious people may believe he is, but he’s agnostic.  His definitions of “GOD” have expanded out beyond the dogmatic western religions which define “GOD” as an anthropomorphic being to an all encompassing connective “energy” that binds the universe together. Kind of a grand unifying theory that attempts to reconcile spiritual with empirical.

Many of my religious friends explain, “I don’t believe in a physical manifestation of GOD but I can’t explain why I’m self aware.  So while miracles are stuff of myths and legends, I like to believe in something bigger than myself and I hope it has a purpose.”

After all if GOD didn’t have unconditional love, there wouldn’t be a purpose for people other than what they make for them selves.  And from there it’s a pretty small step to understanding how insignificant an individual is.  Then you’re on a slippery slope to justifying all sorts of anti-social behavior.

Comment #53: cynickal  on  07/10  at  03:31 PM

The religious people invoked in defending the religious privilege—-the right not to be made uncomfortable, a privilege not extended to non-believers—-are always the Platonic ideal of non-offensive believer, someone who barely believes really, keeps it to themselves, has no moral differences from an atheist, stays the course on the liberal party line and doesn’t squirm over Teh Gay or Teh Abortion, and maybe even agrees that “under god” should be taken out of the Pledge.

Speaking as someone who fits the description above pretty closely, I’d like to state for the record that I have absolutely no problem with Richard Dawkins or anyone else being outspokenly atheistic, so don’t feel guilty about being outspoken on my account.  It doesn’t make me uncomfortable, and even if it did I have no claim to not having the comfort of my religious principles disturbed, and even if I did I wouldn’t exercise it on the grounds that it can be healthy to periodically re-examine one’s principles anyway.

And if that be blasphemy, then Jerry Falwell and Bill Donahue can positively confront me.

Comment #54: cminus  on  07/10  at  03:38 PM

“Either there are such things as gods, or there aren’t. That’s not a “stark light”, that’s a function of the universe we live in, where things larger than subatomic particles have to exist in well-defined states. Either God is a real entity, or he’s a mythological concept. Regardless of what you mean when you say “God”, there’s no middle ground.”

There are intangibles and they are called ideas—do ideas exist? Are they clearly defined in terms of mass? Yes, there are neurotransmitters interacting in tangible brains, but ideas go beyond one individual brain, they are part of a collective process of understanding or trying to understand our reality. Is there a sky-daddy, no, but that doesn’t mean that “God/Goddess” talk has a place in my engagement with others in community. Just because you can’t get beyond dualism isn’t my problem. You want me to cry uncle because you are dogmatic, that’s a big part of my problem with contemporary Atheism. You won’t let religion be complicated (not all Atheists, mind, just the dogmatists like Dawkins & apparently “Chet”); religious/spirituality, its more complicated that belief—its practice and community. Metaphors are important and bad metaphors which turn into literal teachings can be harmful, but I will not subscribe to literalism, to a system without nuance—going over to the theists or the atheists. Its more complicated and though I think its important to be able to criticize belief, I don’t really see how making fun of people is particularly constructive, as many Atheists do.

Comment #55: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  03:47 PM

Liberal Christian here.

The Great God Debaters can take it outside. I care about your internal beliefs as much as I request that you care about mine: Zip, zilch, nada.

Comment #56: D.N. Nation  on  07/10  at  03:52 PM

Joeblu, here’s what you need to do when the Mormons or JW’s come around.  You say to them, oh, I’m so glad to see you, I wonder if you have a few minutes to talk about the Ceiling Cat?  Some JWs came here a couple weeks ago, and I went on and on, explaining that the lolcatbible was the final revelation and that their various Bible passages that they quoted were mistranslations.  The said to me that in Gen. 1:28, God tells humans to dominate the animals, and this would include cats, and I said, do you like know any cats?

They kept saying things like so you basically have the same Bible and beliefs, except that your God is a cat.

They excused themselves after 5 or 10 minutes or so.

Comment #57: Mike Toreno  on  07/10  at  03:56 PM

Thealogian:

It is in the essence of a rational and scientific atheist to accept that there are concepts out there that are theoretically quite possible but not only wholly unproven but lacking any evidence whatsoever.  It isn’t dogmatic or dualistic to say “until I see proof I deny existence; until I see evidence I am not obliged to consider the theory”.  Your concept of ideas is an interesting one, but we know that brains exist, that neurotransmitters exist, and so forth.  The evidence of a collective existence for them creating an entity is precisely zero, and so we are not obliged to even consider it.  We can and should keep an open mind, but there is a world of difference between acceptance of a notional possibility on the one hand and, on the other, adherence to belief in the actual, real existence of that which is posited.  Otherwise it’s merely a more sophisticated, Star Trek level of scientific knowledge example of Russell’s teapot, isn’t it?

Put more succinctly, “what ifs”, even reasoned speculation, should not be considered the same as proof or even evidence. 

As for making fun, isn’t it a bit much to ask rational people to not make fun of delusions of white-bearded patriarch figures who manage to simultaneously be both homicidal tribal lunatics and all-loving and all-forgiving?

Comment #58: seeker6079  on  07/10  at  04:19 PM

seeker6079—I really think that it is an oversimplification of Thealogian’s apparent personal philosophy to assume she’s dealing in what-ifs exclusively.  It’s also overly dogmatic in essentially asking her to ‘toe the line.’  There’s plenty of room for building a community in ‘the spirit of the Goddess,’ for example, without necessarily believing the Goddess is a literal entity who engages with you.  It’s unnecessary and unbecoming to assume her religion (I don’t know what else to call it) is as simplistic as ‘I can’t disprove it, so I’m not letting it go.’  There needs to be more in the dialog than ‘Is there evidence for my concept of a god?’

Comment #59: JoeBlu  on  07/10  at  04:38 PM

His definitions of “GOD” have expanded out beyond the dogmatic western religions which define “GOD” as an anthropomorphic being to an all encompassing connective “energy” that binds the universe together.

So now, instead of God being human goodness, God is gravity?

If you’re not defining God as the anthropomorphic being who grants wishes and judges the dead, then you’re playing a word-game. If you believe that God is gravity and not Santa Claus for grownups, you’re an atheist, because you don’t actually believe in God. You believe in gravity.

Comment #60: Chet  on  07/10  at  04:55 PM

If you’re not defining God as the anthropomorphic being who grants wishes and judges the dead, then you’re playing a word-game. If you believe that God is gravity and not Santa Claus for grownups, you’re an atheist, because you don’t actually believe in God. You believe in gravity.

Do you have to work hard to be this deliberately dense, or did daddy not let you take any liberal arts courses in college?

Seriously, the majority of all religions on the planet do not see god as a Sky Fairy/Santa Claus figure, but more of a force of nature or a kind of subtle energy.  If you choose to ignore all of these religions because they don’t conform to your pre-scripted arguments, so be it.  But you will end up looking pretty ignorant.  Which kind of ruins your credibility if you pretend to have “proof” about anything, since you should probably be vaguely informed about what spiritual belief is before you decide it must be a “delusion”.

Comment #61: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  05:02 PM

As some anarcho-punk band I completly forgot the name of once sung:

“Once they make you believe absurdities
They can make you commit atrocities”

And there’s nothing much more absurd than the God hypothesis.

Comment #62: BlackBloc  on  07/10  at  05:02 PM

There are intangibles and they are called ideas—do ideas exist?

By definition, no, ideas do not “exist”; to be intangible, or abstract, is to not exist because that’s what those words mean.

If you believe that God exists the same way that an idea “exists”, you’re an atheist.

You won’t let religion be complicated

I won’t let religion be anything except true, and since it cannot be, I oppose it. It doesn’t have anything to do with “dualism”; it has everything to do with people believing things on the basis of no good evidence, like you do; I think it’s obvious to the most casual observer that such belief is an incredibly destructive habit not only to yourself but to humanity in general.

What you’re doing is a kind of second-hand smoke of the mind. As an atheist who has to share this world with you, I’m kindly asking you to stop. The universe is real and it is not a friendly place to us. Merely being alive is something that we need to apply our adult minds to, and grapple with reality as it is, not as we would like to pretend that it is.

ts practice and community.

Atheists don’t have community? That’s news to me.

I will not subscribe to literalism, to a system without nuance

Nuance? You can’t even be persuaded to subscribe to a system that includes any meaning to words. You’re a long, long way from nuance.

Comment #63: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:03 PM

If you’re not defining God as the anthropomorphic being who grants wishes and judges the dead, then you’re playing a word-game.

Uh, there are a couple million Hindus and Buddhists (along with assorted other non-Judeo-Christians) who would like to have a word with you.

Comment #64: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  05:04 PM

There’s plenty of room for building a community in ‘the spirit of the Goddess,’ for example, without necessarily believing the Goddess is a literal entity who engages with you.

Why is that better, though, than building a community around bowling, or around feminism, or around other mutual interests? Why build a community around a lie-held-to-be-true instead of something that actually exists?

It’s true that religion often comes hand-in-hand with things that are beneficial, like community spirit or a sense that your life is meaningful. Religion’s defenders, though, can never explain why those things can’t be divorced from asking people to believe things that aren’t even remotely true. If community is good, why can’t we have community for its own sake? Why do we have to tell each other stories about Goddesses who don’t exist?

Comment #65: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:05 PM

Chet, let me ask you this: why is it so important to you that I use the term atheist, when I find that term inaccurate because I find that ignorance of individual Christians of their own faith traditions and atheists of those traditions they reject leads to ridiculous dualistic presentations of God/No God?

JoeBlue
“There’s plenty of room for building a community in ‘the spirit of the Goddess,’ for example, without necessarily believing the Goddess is a literal entity who engages with you.”
Thank you, that was beautifully put.

Seeker
“As for making fun, isn’t it a bit much to ask rational people to not make fun of delusions of white-bearded patriarch figures who manage to simultaneously be both homicidal tribal lunatics and all-loving and all-forgiving?”
Because it creates animosity and resentment—its just like calling all conservatives stupid. It stops the conversation. Also, very few people beyond radicals believe in Zeus/God/Sky-Fairy literally in the heavens. Even many Evangelicals can be more nuanced than that—they just don’t have TV ministries.

Comment #66: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  05:06 PM

Uh, there are a couple million Hindus and Buddhists (along with assorted other non-Judeo-Christians) who would like to have a word with you.

Most of them are atheists, the same way the members of most religions are atheists.

If you believe that God is a metaphor for something, how are you not an atheist?

Comment #67: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:07 PM

Most of them are atheists, the same way the members of most religions are atheists.

No, most of them are non-Christians.  That doesn’t make them atheists, unless your definition of atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in the Judeo-Christian God.

Comment #68: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  05:08 PM

Chet, let me ask you this: why is it so important to you that I use the term atheist

I’m trying to get you to see your beliefs in a new, more honest light.

Is there something about belief that you believe is beyond challenge? Aren’t you here to talk?

those traditions they reject leads to ridiculous dualistic presentations of God/No God?

But you haven’t explained why they are ridiculous. In fact I find openly acknowledging the dichotomy to be a lot more honest than your position, and a lot less ridiculous. God either exists or he doesn’t exist. He can’t exist for you and not exist for me, not if words mean things. The kind of word-games you insist on playing are an attempt to deny that a word means anything except what you take it in your head, at that moment, to decide it means.

Comment #69: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:10 PM

That doesn’t make them atheists, unless your definition of atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in the Judeo-Christian God.

It makes them atheists because they believe in gods that are metaphors, not gods who are entities that exist.

If you believe that God, or any god, is a metaphor for something more prosaic, you’re an atheist. You do not believe in the literal existence of gods.

That’s atheism.

Comment #70: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:11 PM

Chet,

Are you just being deliberately antagonistic now?  There are plenty of better ways that you could be spending your time than harassing people who refuse to be as ‘rational’ as you.  Rational here apparently meaning ‘devoid of metaphoric thought.’  Have you ever been to a UU church?  People there express their humanity and community in a whole variety of ways - sometimes using old religious metaphors, sometimes eschewing them completely.  Just because they don’t identify as your particular breed of atheist is no reason to think they’re unthinking.

Opoponax,
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
Estimates suggest that very large portions of the world populations (Christians and Muslims) believe that God is not a subtle energy but a being who is genuinely interested in human actions.  Many Hindus make tribute to various gods who they believe will grant them benefits in return.  Chet’s being thick-headed, but the number of people who think of God in a subtle way like you suggest is actually pretty low.

Comment #71: JoeBlu  on  07/10  at  05:15 PM

Chet, you’re starting to remind me of Rev. Lovejoy:

Rev. Lovejoy: No, but He was working in the hearts of your friends and neighbors when they came to your aid, be they [points to Ned] Christian, [Krusty] Jew, or [Apu] ... miscellaneous.
Apu:  Hindu!  There are 700 million of us!
Rev. Lovejoy: Aw, that’s super.

Comment #72: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  05:15 PM

Me:
You won’t let religion be complicated
Chet:
I won’t let religion be anything except true, and since it cannot be, I oppose it.

Okay, so you’re a Fundamentalist.

“Nuance? You can’t even be persuaded to subscribe to a system that includes any meaning to words. You’re a long, long way from nuance.”

That is a hilarious quote, seriously. Dude, words carry nuances of meaning! Ever head of connotation and denotation? Gee, Freshman High School English too hard for you? I bet you don’t read fiction because its not “true.” Words change overtime—that is how culture evolves.

Comment #73: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  05:16 PM

CHET: Most of them are atheists, the same way the members of most religions are atheists.

Mnemosyne: No, most of them are non-Christians.  That doesn’t make them atheists, unless your definition of atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in the Judeo-Christian God.

BINGO!

Comment #74: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  05:17 PM

There are plenty of better ways that you could be spending your time than harassing people who refuse to be as ‘rational’ as you.

Ah, right, now I’m “harassing” people.

Well, it must be true - I’m an atheist and my mouth is moving. Ergo, I must be a dogmatic, militant, and - oh, my favorite of the bullshit - “fundamentalist” atheist.

Don’t you guys ever get creative? Geez, never heard any of that shit before.

BINGO!

Bingo what? Mnem is grappling with a strawman. I never said that all non-Christians were atheists. Christian or not, most members of every religion don’t actually believe in God; therefore, they’re atheists. They just don’t know that they are, because they don’t know that atheist is something that it’s ok to be. Just like you refuse to see that, T.

Comment #75: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:25 PM

And, we’ve killed the thread.  I note, for posterity, that Chet started it.

Comment #76: JoeBlu  on  07/10  at  05:26 PM

That is a hilarious quote, seriously. Dude, words carry nuances of meaning!

Nuance is not an open license to abuse language. Words have meanings; otherwise communication would be impossible.

As I see it is with you.

Comment #77: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:26 PM

I never said that all non-Christians were atheists. Christian or not, most members of every religion don’t actually believe in God; therefore, they’re atheists.

Nice wiggle.  You still didn’t answer:  what about the people who believe in Vishnu, but don’t believe he’s a big bearded white guy in the sky who shoots lightning bolts in your ass if you misbehave?

Comment #78: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  05:29 PM

Thealogian, and anyone else that holds similar views, a couple of questions.  What is the difference between believing in your god vs not?  What is the difference between the existence of your god vs not?  The answers to those, to me at least, are the key to understanding what you are talking about.

Comment #79: D  on  07/10  at  05:36 PM

Chet - it is in fact harassing people when you take over a forum, accuse people of bad faith arguments, and refuse to actually have some sort of real conversation beyond insults and whining. ‘Trolling’ is more accurate, I suppose.

Nobody accused Amanda of harassment, though she’s an atheist whose mouth is moving, because she isn’t being belligerent about what apparently amounts to an insistence that people call themselves a certain name because you say so.  That’s awfully bad behavior.  I’m an atheist of your particular stripe.  I don’t find the rituals others engage in, metaphoric or not, particularly useful, but I’m not so arrogant as to assume that those things are crutches that need to be removed rather than a real way of exploring your relationship with others in a community.

Fundamentalist is the right word, in a dictionary sense, for your binary belief system.  Either God fundamentally IS, or he ISN’T.  That doesn’t mean that religious expressions must always specifically endorse one or the other of those statements.

Comment #80: JoeBlu  on  07/10  at  05:40 PM

You still didn’t answer:  what about the people who believe in Vishnu, but don’t believe he’s a big bearded white guy in the sky who shoots lightning bolts in your ass if you misbehave?

Mnem, what kind of question is that? I can’t tell you if they’re atheists or not based on what they don’t believe Vishnu is. You tell me what they do believe he is and I can tell you whether they’re atheists or not.

Generally, though, the people who believe that Vishnu is a metaphor for certain aspects of the human condition (like “love”, or “human goodness”, or “community”, or “the divinity in all of us”) are atheists, and the people that believe that Vishnu is a blue four-armed man/woman who is the creator and destroyer of all existence are not.

Again, the determining factor is whether you believe that God (or whoever) is an abstract idea or metaphor, or a concrete entity who exists and does/has done stuff in our universe. The former are atheists; the latter are theists (including deists). It’s really not that complicated once you stop playing word-games.

Comment #81: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:44 PM

I’m an atheist and I think you’re full of it, Chet. It’s perfectly possible for people to hold non-rational beliefs that are beneficial to themselves, their community, and society. If they do, then there’s really no rational reason to make fun of them, bonk them on the head with the non-rationality of what they’re thinking or practicing, or try to get them to identify using your term.

Comment #82: Holly  on  07/10  at  05:44 PM

Nobody accused Amanda of harassment

Amanda is regularly accused of “harassment”, simply for being an open atheist. You simply aren’t paying enough attention.

That doesn’t mean that religious expressions must always specifically endorse one or the other of those statements.

It means that people have to, though. Once the question has been asked, it’s either “he exists”, “he doesn’t exist”, or “I don’t know/I haven’t decided yet.” God is something we talk about in our culture. It’s something we’re talking about on this blog. Asking people who want to be part of the conversation to actually take part in it, instead of playing ridiculous word games, isn’t harassment in any sense.

Unless you’re religious, apparently.

Comment #83: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:47 PM

It’s perfectly possible for people to hold non-rational beliefs that are beneficial to themselves, their community, and society.

But why is that better than holding rational beliefs that are beneficial to themselves, their community, and society?

That’s all I’m asking. Asking a question means I’m full of shit? Are religion’s defenders actually trying to tell me that there’s no rational ideas that are as beneficial as irrational religious ones? Really?

Comment #84: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:49 PM

Mnem, what kind of question is that? I can’t tell you if they’re atheists or not based on what they don’t believe Vishnu is. You tell me what they do believe he is and I can tell you whether they’re atheists or not.

They believe that Vishnu is “the All-Pervading essence of all beings, the master of and beyond the past, present and future, the creator and destroyer of all existences, one who supports, sustains and governs the Universe and originates and develops all elements within.”

So:  atheists or not atheists?

Comment #85: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  05:50 PM

But Chet, ridiculous word games are part of lots of religions. There are religions in which God both exists and doesn’t exist, in which God is three things and one thing simultaneously, and other logical impossibilities. It doesn’t make sense to whine about religion being irrational, because it’s often done precisely to not follow the rules of logic. In fact, from what I gather that is kind of the point. And there’s nothing inherently wrong with that, as long as you don’t let it override things like actual ethics, benefits to society, sound policy decisions, human rights, and other things that have a rational basis.

In other words, some things really should be based in reason. And that’s where it’s totally sensible and reasonable to say, I’m sorry but non-rational religious beliefs shouldn’t enter in this arena. There are other areas of life and culture where reason is not all-important. And if you start acting like you’re better, or making fun of people for their beliefs that are not based in reason, in those spheres of life? You are an intolerant jerk.

The question for me is whether the title of Dawkins’ book, in a bookstore (which is not a voting booth or a political policy meeting or a scientific symposium) is rude. I kind of think it is, because for a lot of purposes it doesn’t matter at all whether God is technically a “delusion,” and it’s disparaging and rude to point that out. But of course, that’s just the cover of the book, not the contents.

Comment #86: Holly  on  07/10  at  05:55 PM

Chet, I wonder that maybe you haven’t had much exposure to non-Christians.

I am a Wiccan. I believe that there is a divine spiritual force that permeats the universe. I believe that force is aware of us, as we can be of it, and is cognizant, but I do not believe this force intervenes in any meaningfully physical way (i.e. I don’t ‘pray’ to the divine for healing or job promotions) in our lives.

It would seem that you would define me as an atheist (because I don’t believe in a Santa Claus god), but I know for a fact that Mr. Dawkins and others would very much NOT define me as an atheist. It seems unfair for you to try to hijack the meaning of ‘atheist’, and I would like to believe you are not unfair. May I assume that I’m right in that you have accidentally conflated “atheist” with “non-Christian”? It’s easy to do, if you haven’t been exposed to the other ‘flavors’ out there. smile

Comment #87: Faye  on  07/10  at  05:56 PM

Holly: Thealogian was the one who dropped by to call athiests simple-minded unsophisticates.

I’m more or less with Chet—why shouldn’t the statements “I believe in God” and “I believe God is a metaphor for love, community, and goodness” simply add up to “I believe in love, community, and goodness”? You can’t pray to those things, I guess, but then you can’t pray to a metaphor either; meanwhile, you can certainly meditate on either (I once attended a Buddhist gathering that meditated on the latter). The only benefit I see to this “nuance” is that you can avoid the stigma of the athiest label.

Comment #88: jericho  on  07/10  at  05:56 PM

But why is that better than holding rational beliefs that are beneficial to themselves, their community, and society?

It’s not necessarily better. But you also are not proving (nor has anyone attempted to, to my knowledge) that every rational belief is always in all cases better and more beneficial to individual, group, and societal well-being than every non-rational belief. If that’s not the case, then there are better non-rational beliefs, at least in some circumstances, and you should let them be and respect them even if they don’t work for you and you have other preferences.

Rationality is not automatically superior to irrationality for everyone in every circumstance, is the point. Atheists (of which I am one) should not act like it is… it would actually be kind of unreasonable and irrational. Hah.

Comment #89: Holly  on  07/10  at  05:58 PM

Faye: No—this is easy. If you can be aware of an all-pervading life-force, then the life-force exists whether it does anything or not. Be at ease: you have not been co-opted. smile

Comment #90: jericho  on  07/10  at  05:59 PM

So:  atheists or not atheists?

Not atheists. The part where Vishnu is the “creator and destroyer of things” indicates a Vishnu that is an actor in the universe, and therefore exists in a concrete way.

I don’t know how I can be clearer. To assert that God is a being with existence is to not be an atheist.

Comment #91: Chet  on  07/10  at  06:01 PM

D
I’m just saying I’m not an atheist because the term means something very specific that I do not believe in, that is that the question is between the Judeo/Christian God and Not the Judeo-Christian God. To be honest, I’m pretty uncomfortable with God talk. However, I really enjoy reading Sallie McFague, Marjorie Suchoski, Carol Christ, Starhawk, even Mary Daly—and they use or explore God-talk which isn’t black/white like Chet wants. I’m just saying, its more complicated and that Atheism has a specific meaning to me, as someone who was raised in a community that included many strong Humanists/Atheists (many I love/admire) I understand that term well and know that it doesn’t describe me well. So, its not that I believe in a God per se, but that Atheism, particularly 20th Century atheism which Dawkins is a particular subscriber of, does not accurately describe my belief system because I find it too confining.

Comment #92: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  06:01 PM

I’m more or less with Chet—why shouldn’t the statements “I believe in God” and “I believe God is a metaphor for love, community, and goodness” simply add up to “I believe in love, community, and goodness”?

Because the statements that include God, as some kind of personalization, anthropomorphic symbol, humanistic metaphor, parental figure or whatever, are more efficacious for some people in their practice of life, as they pursue love, community, and goodness. Pragmatically, it doesn’t really matter whether the God part is entirely “rational,” as long as it psychologically gets the job done. Now if you could demonstrate that inserting God in there necessarily leads people on a route of forcing their beliefs on others and making irrational decisions at the voting booth, then you would have a real argument for eliminating belief in God. But I would be surprised if such a thing could necessarily be true. There are forms or religion, spirituality, whatever you want to call beliefs that are not centered aroudn rationality, that don’t entail or cause those things.

Comment #93: Holly  on  07/10  at  06:02 PM

It would seem that you would define me as an atheist (because I don’t believe in a Santa Claus god),

I don’t define you as an atheist, and this idea that the only non-atheist God is Santa Claus is a strawman about me created by Mnem and others.

So, you know, breathe easy. You’re not atheist to me, and I don’t find your beliefs any more dangerous than the “baseline” religious faith; but, yes, I believe your universal divine force does not exist, and that you have no good reason for believing in it, and that you’re deluded. (Everything you probably thought I thought about you.)

But I have respect for you as a person - including the respect of being honest with you. Your beliefs don’t make me think less of you, personally, even though I think they’re wrong. I mean I don’t even know you!

May I assume that I’m right in that you have accidentally conflated “atheist” with “non-Christian”?

Again that’s a strawman about me that Mnem is trying to push. I don’t equate “non-Christian” with “atheist.” But when you assert the existence of divinity - not as a metaphor for prosaic human qualities, but as an actual external, concrete thing that causes changes in the universe, you’re not an atheist. It doesn’t matter what religion you are.

Your divine force, as you describe it, can only be detected if it’s making changes in the human body. (That’s the only way we can sense things in the universe; when parts of our bodies, like ears or eyes, change in response to things in the universe.) So you’ve proposed a concrete, acting divine force, not a metaphor; thus, rest assured, you’re no atheist to me.

Comment #94: Chet  on  07/10  at  06:07 PM

But you also are not proving (nor has anyone attempted to, to my knowledge) that every rational belief is always in all cases better and more beneficial to individual, group, and societal well-being than every non-rational belief.

I thought that part was obvious. Given the choice between the truth and a lie; if the cost or benefit of either is precisely identical, what kind of person prefers the lie to the truth?

The truth is better than lies simply because it is the truth. Thus, a rational belief with certain benefits must always be preferred to a lie with the exact same benefits.

Comment #95: Chet  on  07/10  at  06:09 PM

Another point—there are such things as beneficial delusions. Therefore, there are good reasons to be deluded. Simple personal self-confidence is a pretty good example.

At the same time, regardless of what you believe the precise semantic content of these words are, “delusion” and “deluded” have a negative connotation in our culture and are used as insults. So again, there’s really no good reason to call someone deluded. If their beliefs are non-rational and they’re causing some kind of harm, criticize them on the grounds of the harm and point out that there’s no rational basis, that it’s just their own belief. You don’t have to stigmatize and insult, it just weakens your stance.

Comment #96: Holly  on  07/10  at  06:13 PM

The truth is better than lies simply because it is the truth. Thus, a rational belief with certain benefits must always be preferred to a lie with the exact same benefits.

Now you’re exhibiting a faith-like devotion to the truth, just the inherent value of the truth. But let’s say I agree with you. There are plenty of circumstances in which a lie—or a non-rational statement, which is not the same thing as a falsifiable statement that is a falsehood any more than a negative number is an imaginary number—has different benefits or more benefits than a rational truth. In those circumstances, it can be preferred, and that’s fine.

Comment #97: Holly  on  07/10  at  06:17 PM

Your divine force, as you describe it, can only be detected if it’s making changes in the human body. (That’s the only way we can sense things in the universe; when parts of our bodies, like ears or eyes, change in response to things in the universe.)

So things that you personally can’t see or hear don’t exist?  If you were deaf, would that mean that sound doesn’t exist and all of the people who tell you it does are lying to you?  Or does it take a majority of people to experience something before it becomes real?  What do you do when a minority of people insist that they have, in fact, experienced something that you did not?

Comment #98: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  06:17 PM

Jericho: Thealogian was the one who dropped by to call athiests simple-minded unsophisticates.

I never called atheists “simple-minded”—I simply said that that particular appellation does not apply to me, though Chet would like me to claim that I do out of some sort of rhetorical water-balloon fight. I didn’t “drop” in either, I’ve been reading and commenting on pandegon for years.

Chet: “The truth is better than lies simply because it is the truth. Thus, a rational belief with certain benefits must always be preferred to a lie with the exact same benefits.”

Rationality is culturally contextual—or rather, what “qualifies” as rational is culturally contextual. For example, in the 19th Century it was considered the rational truth that women are inferior, not fully human. Many men, those who defined “rationality” held this belief and insisted that their women accept it as well—or at least, feign to. They had evidence, bias evidence and logical arguments—pure logic doesn’t require truth by any means. That kind of rationality, that kind of culturally contextual “truth” is not better than those lies Elizabeth Caddy Stanton and Susan B. Anthony suggested, that women were not these irrational, incomplete not-quite humans.

Comment #99: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  06:18 PM

What you’re doing is a kind of second-hand smoke of the mind. As an atheist who has to share this world with you, I’m kindly asking you to stop. The universe is real and it is not a friendly place to us. Merely being alive is something that we need to apply our adult minds to, and grapple with reality as it is, not as we would like to pretend that it is.

Hey, remember in the other thread where somebody asked if the militant atheists who like to go around telling theists how totally stupid/delusional/evil/mendacious we are are made of straw or what?

I’d like to introduce you to Chet.

Estimates suggest that very large portions of the world populations (Christians and Muslims) believe that God is not a subtle energy but a being who is genuinely interested in human actions.

I never said “a majority of religious believers”, but “a majority of religions”.  Obviously it’s true that a large number of religious adherents, worldwide, are nominally either Christian or Muslim.  But it’s also true that a large number of registered voters in the US are Republicans.  That hardly means that Democrats don’t really exist, or that a liberal political outlook is not a legitimate part of American politics.

I would also add that the extent to which Asian religions believe in a personal form of deity rather than the “subtle energy” idea is almost entirely due to contact with Islam.  Also, if you would use “hey, people go to temples and leave offerings to Vishnu and shizz” as analagous to a Yahweh conception of deity, you clearly don’t really understand Hinduism well enough to weigh in on the matter.

Comment #100: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  06:18 PM

Another point—there are such things as beneficial delusions.

Wikipedia returned no results on “beneficial delusions.” I thought whether or not a delusion could be beneficial, or whether a delusion could offer a unique benefit that something true could not, was the point under discussion.

So again, there’s really no good reason to call someone deluded.

I’m open to a new term to describe belief in the objectively, obviously false. As a test, try to apply your term to the case of the man who thinks he’s getting orders from Napoleon Bonaparte and see if it seems ridiculous. The man is “mistaken”? The man is “naive”? The man is “misinformed”?

Yeah. Doesn’t work as well as “deluded”, I think.

Comment #101: Chet  on  07/10  at  06:18 PM

Hey, remember in the other thread where somebody asked if the militant atheists who like to go around telling theists how totally stupid/delusional/evil/mendacious we are are made of straw or what?

Opp, I’m happy to call you an idiot, but it has nothing to do with your religion, and everything to do with your bullshit lies.

Comment #102: Chet  on  07/10  at  06:19 PM

Thealogian: I meant to the thread. I myself have only posted in two.

Comment #103: jericho  on  07/10  at  06:21 PM

The truth is better than lies simply because it is the truth. Thus, a rational belief with certain benefits must always be preferred to a lie with the exact same benefits.

And when the lie is more beneficial?  What then?

A couple of years before her death, my grandmother’s mind started to wander.  She kept forgetting that my grandfather had died 20 years before, and she was freshly upset every time she was reminded of it.  So we started telling her that he was on a fishing trip, and that made her happy.

Now, there’s really no true benefit to that lie.  It wasn’t bad for her health to be upset, and it wouldn’t have permanently damaged her if we had patiently explained every time it came up that Grandpa was dead and had died 20 years ago.  So is that what we should have done rather than tell her that lie?

Comment #104: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  06:24 PM

And when the lie is more beneficial?  What then?

Is that the position, Mnem? I just want to know. Is that the defense of religion? That there are some lies that are always better than the truth?

So is that what we should have done rather than tell her that lie?

Had some respect for her as an adult?

How did it make you all feel to keep lying, to keep treating her like a child, with that kind of disrespect? Are you sure the truth wasn’t better than the lie? If it wasn’t, why do you still feel bad about lying?

Comment #105: Chet  on  07/10  at  06:28 PM

As a test, try to apply your term to the case of the man who thinks he’s getting orders from Napoleon Bonaparte and see if it seems ridiculous. The man is “mistaken”? The man is “naive”? The man is “misinformed”?

I find “that man believes he’s receiving orders from Napoleon Bonaparte” works perfectly well to describe that situation, given the widespread consensus on the subject of telepathywith dictators from centuries past. If you really want something shorter, “irrational belief” works fine too. But even that may fall short; I mean, what if you started hearing a voice in your head, it told you to dig in your backyard, and you found a lost diary of Napoleon Bonaparte? Now, there are multiple plausible explanations, and Occam’s Razor might suggest a few, but even a rational person might start to wonder if in fact, there was some way that a dead French dictator could be communicating with them.

The thing is, getting orders from Napoleon Bonaparte is not a falsifiable claim. It can’t be proven or disproven.

If you really want to use the word delusion, use it for something that is falsifiable and is conclusively falsified, but you still believe it. God isn’t falsifiable.

I thought whether or not a delusion could be beneficial, or whether a delusion could offer a unique benefit that something true could not, was the point under discussion.

It seems completely obvious to me that there are non-rational beliefs that can offer unique benefits that rational ones can’t. If you really can’t think of any examples, I suspect you may be harboring an irrational faith in rationality that’s unwarranted by the very standards of rationality.

Comment #106: Holly  on  07/10  at  06:29 PM

You are obviously a Truthist, Chet. I’m glad you found your religion.

Comment #107: Holly  on  07/10  at  06:30 PM

Is that the position, Mnem? I just want to know. Is that the defense of religion? That there are some lies that are always better than the truth?

You seem to have a very strong faith that the truth is always superior to any kind of lie.  I’m just trying to point out that you’re exhibiting a faith in “the truth” that’s just as irrational at its base as Faye’s belief in a life force in the universe.

How did it make you all feel to keep lying, to keep treating her like a child, with that kind of disrespect? Are you sure the truth wasn’t better than the lie? If it wasn’t, why do you still feel bad about lying?

Actually, we don’t feel bad at all about lying.  She was nearly blind, almost deaf, and didn’t have a very good grasp of what day it was, much less what year it was.  To force her to face the truth that her husband was dead and let her feel that fresh pain every day would have been far more cruel than to tell her a comforting lie.  But I guess allowing someone emotional comfort when they need it is bad in your book if it means they’re not being told the absolute truth.

Comment #108: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  06:33 PM

But why is that better than holding rational beliefs that are beneficial to themselves, their community, and society?

Why is watching a movie considered vastly more entertaining (by most people) than doing a math problem?

Are you really one of those people who insists on destroying everything in human society that is not perfectly rational?  Really?  Can I take a picture for next time someone seems to think you’re made of straw?

Now you’re exhibiting a faith-like devotion to the truth

Which is interesting, because one of the more pervasive ways of understanding deity in Eastern thought (specifically Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, I can’t speak for Taoism or Confuscianism) is that “God Is Truth” and/or “Truth Is God”.  Chet would call all such adherents “atheists”, I guess.  Maybe he’s just a horribly confused believer who has decided that since he, Gandhi, and Guru Nanak believe the same thing, and he considers himself an atheist, therefore they were all atheists, too?

And Thealogian, can I just say that I want to give you a big hug right now?  You are the first person in the liberal/atheist blogosphere who has been able to get across the things I’m generally trying and failing to get across.

Maybe I should look into divinity school…  Though Mnemosyne is doing a bangup job, too, and her degree is in Media Crit (am I right?)...

Comment #109: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  06:34 PM

Chuck Norris exists. 

Just sayin’.

Comment #110: Brylock  on  07/10  at  06:36 PM

The thing is, getting orders from Napoleon Bonaparte is not a falsifiable claim. It can’t be proven or disproven.

I would have assumed that it was disproven by the fact that Napoleon is dead, but I’m just an atheist - what could I possibly know? I mean never mind that I’ve been in his tomb, and all.

God isn’t falsifiable.

Sure God is falsifiable.  That’s how we know there’s no such thing as God - we’ve falsified the claim. I mean, I know you weren’t paying attention, probably because you believed the religious when they told you, absent any evidence, that “God isn’t falsifiable”; but we falsified God ages ago. That’s why there’s been atheists ever since.

Maybe if you crack a book or something you can find it.

It seems completely obvious to me that there are non-rational beliefs that can offer unique benefits that rational ones can’t.

On what basis? If you knew they were irrational and false, how much benefit could you hope to get? Lying to yourself, grossly, isn’t known to be a step towards a content life.

Comment #111: Chet  on  07/10  at  06:47 PM

Why is watching a movie considered vastly more entertaining (by most people) than doing a math problem?

Are you really one of those people who insists on destroying everything in human society that is not perfectly rational?  Really?

Opp, how long do I have to wait around for you to grapple with something I actually said? Math problems and movies have nothing to do with it.

Can I take a picture for next time someone seems to think you’re made of straw?

You’ve already put up a giant strawman of me, Opp, you can take whatever pictures you like. (You’ll have to stop flogging it, though.)

Maybe I should look into divinity school…

Do you really have any more room in you for disingenuous horseshit? I would be surprised.

Comment #112: Chet  on  07/10  at  06:50 PM

Seriously, the majority of all religions on the planet do not see god as a Sky Fairy/Santa Claus figure, but more of a force of nature or a kind of subtle energy.

Christianity and Islam are the two biggest religions in the world and that’s exactly how they see god.  So I’m sort of stumped on how you got the numbers there.

Comment #113: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/10  at  06:50 PM

Also, very few people beyond radicals believe in Zeus/God/Sky-Fairy literally in the heavens. Even many Evangelicals can be more nuanced than that—they just don’t have TV ministries.

Yes, there may be very few people beyond radicals who believe in this literal manner, and that would indeed be a good thing (well, better, anyway), except ... just how many so-called “radicals” are there ?

Let’s see, there’s the Rapture crowd (I really don’t think it was the skeptics who made Left Behind a bestseller), and the other day there was an epic thread on Pharyngula about people who believe in all sincerity that if you break a host, it will literally bleed ... Then there are the Pentecostals, a number of whom apparently believe in things like toilet teleportation <http://www.ex-upci.net/id79.html> (that last URL is from a website set up by ex-pentes, got some great “Pentecostal urban legends” there).  The kids who die from lack of medical treatment because their parents think going to a doctor would show lack of faith in God.  The people who don’t get their mental illnesses treated because OMG it must be demons.  The victims of the quacks who try to “cure” gayness because OMG that must also be demons. The whole Virgin-on-a-grilled-cheese-sandwich/chocolate-shavings/underpass thing.

(And it’s not just a Western/Xian thing.  Growing up in Asia I knew lots of people who did the “please G/god won’t you buy me a Mercedes-Benz” routine - in fact I’ve always suspected that this is the reason megachurch prosperity-gospel seems to be catching on there these days.  Then there were the people who believed that you shouldn’t engage in outdoors PDA because God/gods might see you - yes, literally - and be scandalised, who believed that birth defects etc. were the result of bad karma.  Also, demons demons everywhere, ooga booga booga ! I never cease to be amused at the well-meaning Westerners who think that Eastern religion is somehow more rational, mostly because the version I always heard there was that Westerners “intellectualized” Buddhism too much because they were too rational and just didn’t get it. Lol.)

I don’t know.  Look, I am sympathetic to the idea that the moderates aren’t getting the air-time the nuts are getting, and I know they exist, but I also think they’re a wee bit optimistic (understatement alert) about the number of what at one time were considered fringe elements and ... well ... radicals.

(Of course, there are also a whole bunch of “moderates” who are fond of yelling at atheists for being “incredibly dim” while accusing them of being obnoxious when they return the compliment, but that’s another story altogether.)

Comment #114: liane  on  07/10  at  06:52 PM

“Many of my religious friends explain, “I don’t believe in a physical manifestation of GOD but I can’t explain why I’m self aware.  So while miracles are stuff of myths and legends, I like to believe in something bigger than myself and I hope it has a purpose.”

So, your friends think that unexplainable phenomena are a reason to believe in gods?

For a lot of people, their computer would qualify as a reason to believe in gods.

So, if we COULD explain self-awareness, or build a self-aware machine, they’d stop believing their fairy tales?

Comment #115: Eric, Rejector of Memes  on  07/10  at  06:53 PM

Though Mnemosyne is doing a bangup job, too, and her degree is in Media Crit (am I right?)…

Critical Studies for undergrad, Screenwriting for grad.  Which is why I get a little testy when people start talking about how truth is always superior to a lie.  I really don’t want to have to live in John Grierson’s world and only tell stories that really happened.

Comment #116: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  06:53 PM

Good grief, I think what Mnemosyne did was a kind, pure-hearted thing to do. She treated the woman with compassion, not as a child, as Chet implies. If I have children, I hope they will do the same for me, should the situation arise.

Comment #117: Faye  on  07/10  at  06:57 PM

Math problems and movies have nothing to do with it.

Shows how much you know.

If anything that could be proven to be true was innately superior to anything false, then that whole pesky concept of “fiction” would have been dead before it hit the ground and we’d all spend our spare time working out calculus problems.

Christianity and Islam are the two biggest religions in the world and that’s exactly how they see god.  So I’m sort of stumped on how you got the numbers there.

See above.  I did not say “the majority of religious believers”, but the majority of religions.  Christianity and Islam are two (and I’ll give you Judaism, for a total of 3).  While Christianity and Islam have a massive number of adherents globally, most African cultures haven’t yet agreed that you can only be a member of only one religion at a time.  Which means that most of them also practice native religions which don’t necessarily have a concept of a personal god.  You could probably argue for Vodun/Santeria and other similarly syncretistic beliefs to be added to that list (not to mention that most people who believe in that are also practicing Christians). 

I won’t even go into the part where Christianity and Islam both have alternate, more subtle, understandings of deity wherein God is not necessarily a Sky Fairy type of thing.

Comment #118: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  06:59 PM

After all if GOD didn’t have unconditional love, there wouldn’t be a purpose for people other than what they make for them selves.  And from there it’s a pretty small step to understanding how insignificant an individual is.  Then you’re on a slippery slope to justifying all sorts of anti-social behavior.

I’m glad that Incertus addressed this long before you commented when he wrote:
Oh, I don’t know. When someone used it on me, I countered with, “so the only reason you don’t rape and pillage is because God told you not to? Get away from me you fucking psycho.” Even if he didn’t get it, the people standing around us did.

The Opoponax:
Do you have to work hard to be this deliberately dense, or did daddy not let you take any liberal arts courses in college?

Some of us didn’t go to college at all.  Do I need to take a college liberal arts course to be worthy of consideration?  Yeah, I know that Chet is infuriating.  This just struck me as elitist (in, I believe, the proper sense of the word for once.  If I’ve used it incorrectly, it is at least condescending and insulting to those of us who didn’t attend college.).

Also, very few people beyond radicals believe in Zeus/God/Sky-Fairy literally in the heavens.

Granted, my experience is, by its very definition, anecdotal, but this is not at all what I have seen.  From members of the synagogue my family belonged to, to my religious friends and acquaintances to my spouse’s family members - the crushing majority believed in the literal old man on his throne in the clouds.

Comment #119: Jake Squid  on  07/10  at  07:01 PM

What a frustrating conversation to read.  Words should be means of communication.  When we realized that other people are using words differently than we are, we should figure out how/why they are, and move on with the convo., not insist on reclassifying extraordinarily complex ideas by jamming them into words that we, who didn’t have the damn idea in the first place, think they fit into.

One of my closest friends is Hindu, and although I have not been able to draw her into many convos. about religion, more than 10 years ago in HS I asked her if she would describe her religion as pantheistic or not.  Her answer was not.  Now, mind you, there is more than one shrine in the house she grew up in.  We talked it out for a while, and the closest word we could come up with were that the gods were different “aspects” of the same “unitary/unified force.”  And even that expression of her faith left her deeply unsatisfied.

All that Thealogian is saying is that she does not see herself as an A-theist (one against theism) because she disagrees with the defintion of Theism, that which she is supposed to oppose.  Having studied mysticism and various religions myself, I understand her frustration.  Saying ‘God’ is in all things, or in the love or the community, for most who say it, is not the same as saying “these are wonderful things.” 

It is, for many, a way of expressing a unity, a connection, an underlying meaning or force to what many see as wholly unrelated acts of a like character.  What if my love is connected, not semantically as being of a like kind, but really connected to all the other love in the world?  What if love is some sort of shared collective force, and when I feed it, it strengthens all of the love that others feel and express?  Not trying to put any words in Thealogian’s mouth, this is me just dipping my toe back into mysticism for the first time in a long time.

The story goes the the famous Sufi poet and mystic, Rabeyah, was once found by one of her followers running through the town in the middle of the night with a bucket of water and a bucket of coals.  The follower asked, Rabeyah, what are you doing?  And she said, I am going to set fire to heaven and douse the fires of hell so that all can be freed to follow god without desire for a reward or fear of punishment.  Now, Rabeyah believed very much in God, perhaps even in the way that Chet describes.  But it is interesting to note that, like many atheist thinkers, she was horrified by the thought that people would follow religion to gain a reward or avoid damnation.

There is a lot of overlap.  And not everyone sees God as being human-like, in fact, some consider that heresy.

Comment #120: Ismone  on  07/10  at  07:02 PM

I never cease to be amused at the well-meaning Westerners who think that Eastern religion is somehow more rational, mostly because the version I always heard there was that Westerners “intellectualized” Buddhism too much because they were too rational and just didn’t get it. Lol.

I don’t think anyone is saying Buddhism is “rational”, but that Buddhism as such does not believe in a Yahwist form of deity.

And if you think it does, I’m wondering if you grew up in Korea, and if what your family called “Buddhism” was actually “Evangelical Christianity”.

Comment #121: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  07:03 PM

Chet, I will also add that you’re doing a good enough job of strawmanning yourself by claiming that it’s somehow wrong to provide a beneficial lie to someone who is hurting and in pain.

I can think of plenty of kind, beneficial lies.

Anyway, saying the truth is better dodges that you don’t know the truth. You don’t believe in god, fine, but your belief or lack thereof is not proof. You cannot prove that there is no god, or gods, or divine energy force. So saying this truth/lie dichotomy is pointless.

Comment #122: Faye  on  07/10  at  07:04 PM

Do I need to take a college liberal arts course to be worthy of consideration?

No, but to insist that only two options (True and False) exist out of willful ignorance is kind of lame.  I don’t think you have to go to a university to get the kind of knowledge that would show you that there are other paths and different ways of seeing, but an awareness that such a thing is the case is probably a precondition of getting to consider yourself an atheist.

I was mainly poking fun at Chet’s extreme lack of awareness that anything can be legitimate outside the rational world.  Which tends to be the outlook of Engineering majors.

Comment #123: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  07:09 PM

I would have assumed that it was disproven by the fact that Napoleon is dead, but I’m just an atheist - what could I possibly know? I mean never mind that I’ve been in his tomb, and all.

That’s highly unscientific of you to just assume that it’s impossible and disproven simply because Napoleon is not alive at the moment that a communication is received, but then that’s pretty consistent with this faith-based love of your sacred Truth that you’ve got going on. The rational thing to do when presented with a phenomenon whose explanation is not apparent is to look for falsifiable claims that can be proven or disproven about it, and start eliminating explanations or finding them using whatever tools you have available. This can’t be done with the man who claims to be receiving commands from Napoleon because our scientific tools are not advanced enough to get at the precise cause of his perceptions, no matter what they are. We just have some vague ideas about it. Now in some cases maybe we can find out—like if we did an X-ray and there was a big brain tumor, and we took it out and the voices stopped. But even then, who knows maybe the brain tumor was what enabled a fold in space-time that put him in communication with France in 1798. It’s improbably and sounds like science fiction, but it’s not falsifiable.

Sure God is falsifiable.  That’s how we know there’s no such thing as God - we’ve falsified the claim.

Yeah I must have missed that edition of Nature, where God was finally proven conclusively not to exist. At this point I’m not even sure you understand what a falsifiable claim is. I guess you have a way to test the true/false value of claims like “there is an invisible, intangible camera in the sky, undetectable by any means, that watches everything you do” or “after you die, your consciousness can no longer interact with the world but instead perceives an entirely different reality?” I’d love to see the proof against this stuff. I mean, isn’t the problem with all the religion vs. science debates that the religious people are always acting like their unfalsifiable claims are scientific? If they were falsifiable, everything would be so much easier.

So, if we COULD explain self-awareness, or build a self-aware machine, they’d stop believing their fairy tales?

Well, even if we could there would probably be something else unexplainable. Only when there’s a completely satisfactory explanation for everything will we no longer have any need for this kind of speculation, which is always going to dip into the imaginary or irrational or religious, even for the hard-headed. I guess that is the idea behind “God of the Gaps.” Of course, the God of the Gaps has been criticized on the grounds that it relies on an argument from ignorance, but we’ve got a lot of that going on there. Like Chet acting as if a statement is false because it isn’t or can’t be proven true, equating the non-rational with lies!

Lying to yourself, grossly, isn’t known to be a step towards a content life.

Who said non-rationality was the same thing as lies, or that you needed to be gross about it? Or that you know they’re false? Obviously M’s grandmother didn’t know, and that’s part of the point. And in fact, there are any number of non-rational beliefs that make people very content and happy, although I know the tenets of your faith prohibit them. I’m glad that your devout adherence to Truth the Almighty Protector of Your Universe brings you such satisfaction, but it would be really ecumenical of you to grant a papal decree that there are other approaches to life and that yours is not the One True Path, holy Father Chet of the Church of Truth. Please don’t strike down the heretics with your mighty rationalism.

Comment #124: Holly  on  07/10  at  07:11 PM

Granted, my experience is, by its very definition, anecdotal, but this is not at all what I have seen.

And Jake Squid is officially the 87th notch in my “atheists have an amazing tendency to have grown up in fundamentalist communties” belt.  I think I’m probably going to need a new belt soon…

Comment #125: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  07:11 PM

Here are a couple of examples. Romance—it’s largely a delusion. Does that mean you should never engage in it? Alcohol and cigarattes. They’re clearly bad for you, and it’s irrational to consume them! It’s delusive to put such things in your body. Free Will. It’s pretty much been scientifically shown to not exist, and yet the operating system of your consciousness can’t even run without you acting and thinking as if you can “make decisions.” What are you going to do, just sit there? Oops, that’s part of causality too. Now there’s a “delusion” you can’t even really rid yourself of. Individuality. Creativity. Self-confidence. Time and Space being separate things. Humanism. There are delusive aspects of all of these things, and that’s not bad.

Comment #126: Holly  on  07/10  at  07:16 PM

Holly,

FTR, you are awesome.  smile

Ismone

Comment #127: Ismone  on  07/10  at  07:19 PM

Yeah, Opo - I understand what you were doing and why.  Chet is understandably frustrating.  I was trying to point out a little noticed bias that I see fairly often - the assumption that everybody (or everybody with something of value to say) has gone to college.

Comment #128: Jake Squid  on  07/10  at  07:21 PM

Big question:

In this rather ferocious debate over what is an isn’t God and who is or isn’t an atheist, isn’t the dividing line the sentience of the entity in question?  If there is a great unifying energy field, say, then it’s an energy field.  If it’s an energy field that cogito ergo sums about the place then we move to the question of whether it’s a god or not.  By some religion’s definitions it’s a god, it’s the existence that is important.  Others require that the entity in question be involved with people in some fashion.

It seems to me that the question of whether or not one is an atheist boils down to “do you believe in a higher or different sentient entity which has power”; for many westerners the question continues “and who is involved in your life in some positive or negative but definitely super- or supra-natural way”.

Comment #129: seeker6079  on  07/10  at  07:22 PM

I mean, isn’t the problem with all the religion vs. science debates that the religious people are always acting like their unfalsifiable claims are scientific? If they were falsifiable, everything would be so much easier.

I always liked Carl Sagan’s metaphor about how it doesn’t really matter if someone believes in an invisible dragon that talks only to them as long as they don’t insist that people spend time proving scientifically that their invisible dragon is really real.

I have to say, that’s the thing that bugs me most with annoying theists of all stripes:  the insistence that their beliefs be scientifically validated.  Religion is philosophy, not science.

Comment #130: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  07:22 PM

And Jake Squid is officially the 87th notch in my “atheists have an amazing tendency to have grown up in fundamentalist communties” belt.

See, that’s the thing though - I really don’t think that I grew up in a fundamentalist community and that’s why I find the claim that most religious folks don’t believe in the anthropomorphic god so jarringly weird.  I grew up in Westchester county in New York.  A place noted for its liberal elites.  I hardly think that Chappaqua would be considered to be a fundamentalist community.  Nor would New Hope, PA,  Amherst, MA, and Portland, OR be called fundamentalist communities.

Comment #131: Jake Squid  on  07/10  at  07:27 PM

To be honest, the main reason I mentioned “college liberal arts course” is that I first started to be aware of spirituality outside the Sky Fairy model when I took a college-level (I was actually in high school at the time) Scripture As Literature course.  Later on, in college, I took a course on Hinduism that pretty much blew my mind. 

Not to mention that someone who has a liberal arts-based university experience (even if they don’t eventually get a degree) will eventually come into contact with things like literary criticism and philosophy, which provide endless fodder for thinking people to start realizing that there are obviously things we all believe which are, when you get down to it, completely irrational.  But that doesn’t make them any less ‘true’. 

In a rational sense (as opposed to the “I Just Know, OK?” argument), those two courses were what prevented me from becoming an atheist.  Through exposure to ways of thinking about religion outside of People Of The Book fundamentalism, if nothing else.

Comment #132: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  07:27 PM

Seeker, I don’t think I agree with you, I think sentience is just too narrow a concept.

Comment #133: Ismone  on  07/10  at  07:30 PM

A place noted for its liberal elites.  I hardly think that Chappaqua would be considered to be a fundamentalist community. 

If the people at your synagogue actually believed that there is a literal Dude In The Sky (an old white man with a beard in the actual sky) that watches us and does good things for us if we ask and/or want it badly enough, then yeah, whatever synagogue you grew up attending was definitely what I’d consider “fundamentalist” or at least unnervingly over-orthodox.  Very few Judeo-Christian communities believe so simplistically or literally.

If you grew up Reform, I can almost promise you that pretty much nobody you grew up with actually believed that in a literal sense (even if they believed in things like “the power of prayer”).  That’s kind of the whole point of Reform Judaism, actually.

Comment #134: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  07:30 PM

I think this whole “don’t be dissin’ on fiction” thing is just a wee bit disingenuous, no?  I mean, I consider myself an atheist right along that line of “no empirical/testable/measurable proof= not true= I don’t believe in it”, yet I have no problem enjoying fiction immensely.  Perhaps I’m missing your thrust on that idea, but I fail to understand how valuing truth above non-truth when it comes to the moral framework (religion based or otherwise) we use to make our decisions has anything at all to do with some sort of elimination of fiction based entertainment. Further, I don’t think Chet implied anything of the sort.

Comment #135: Brylock  on  07/10  at  07:32 PM

Thealogian, I understand you do not wish to done the label of an atheist, I do not however quite understand why.  You say you view god as something most people don’t, but I do not understand what you view god is.  Thus I asked those questions, which you did not answer.

Comment #136: D  on  07/10  at  07:37 PM

Perhaps I’m missing your thrust on that idea, but I fail to understand how valuing truth above non-truth when it comes to the moral framework (religion based or otherwise) we use to make our decisions has anything at all to do with some sort of elimination of fiction based entertainment.

If you really think that all true ideas/assertions are “better” than any idea that is “untrue” or “irrational”, then you cannot possibly ever hope to enjoy fiction unless maybe you stick to things that are “Based On A True Story”, or maybe hyper-realism and naturalism. 

Anyone who has some sort of metaphysical crisis about Things That Are Irrational/Untrue certainly cannot enjoy science fiction without being the worst hypocrite. 

I don’t, however, think that this would be true of atheists in general, just anyone who professed to really believe what Chet is saying.  I mean, if it’s wrong to tell your demented grandmother her husband is dead, because you know it would hurt her feelings, then why is it right to waste time sitting in front of a screen watching moving pictures that tell some obviously false (and thoroughly faked, in a production sense) “story”?  How could that in any way be meaningful to you, if you took “truth” and “rationality” so seriously?

Comment #137: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  07:38 PM

I don’t, however, think that this would be true of atheists in general, just anyone who professed to really believe what Chet is saying.  I mean, if it’s wrong to tell your demented grandmother her husband is dead, because you know it would hurt her feelings, then why is it right to waste time sitting in front of a screen watching moving pictures that tell some obviously false (and thoroughly faked, in a production sense) “story”?  How could that in any way be meaningful to you, if you took “truth” and “rationality” so seriously?

When you watch a movie, do you think it is true?  That is a distinction I see that would seem to be important to the discussion.

Comment #138: D  on  07/10  at  07:42 PM

Ok, we are missing each other a bit.  I’m talking mostly about this statement:

Which is why I get a little testy when people start talking about how truth is always superior to a lie.  I really don’t want to have to live in John Grierson’s world and only tell stories that really happened.

I’m not suggesting that your other arguments are incorrect, but I think this is a bit over the top.  Non-belief valuing truth over non-truth as a personal moral code doesn’t have a thing to do with whether you enjoy stories based in fact or fiction.  Didn’t mean anything more about your larger argument.

Comment #139: Brylock  on  07/10  at  07:45 PM

Perhaps I’m missing your thrust on that idea, but I fail to understand how valuing truth above non-truth when it comes to the moral framework (religion based or otherwise) we use to make our decisions has anything at all to do with some sort of elimination of fiction based entertainment.

It’s more that we’re taking Chet’s insistence on Truth above all to the logical extreme, not saying that’s what his argument is.

You may be forgetting that there are people out there who have based their moral framework on entertainment:  think of people who take “Star Trek” so seriously that they show up to jury duty in their uniform (though I’m still a little suspicious she just didn’t want to be on the jury).  Many people take the philosophies of Gene Roddenberry seriously enough to base their own actions on them.  Is it rational to take what you know full well is a fictional TV show and build a life philosophy around it?

Comment #140: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  07:47 PM

Exactly, D. 

Also we could get into a further discussion about how the best fiction still tells some kind of truth about human nature, etc, but I’m a History major, not a writer so just take that as duly posted. smile

Comment #141: Brylock  on  07/10  at  07:48 PM

Conservative congregation.  Reform Judaism is exceptionally different from Conservative Judaism that way.  But it wasn’t just the people that I knew in the synagogue.  Classmates of other religions & their families professed belief in the sky-god and the efficacy or importance of prayer.  I found this to also be true in New Hope, PA - a noted “artist colony” at the time - and Amherst, MA.  Of those I knew in those places who claimed a religion (Jewish, Christian, New Age crystal worshippers, pagans, etc.), the vast majority believed in a conscious, aware and active god or gods.

In the years since, I’ve certainly met folks who claim a religion or faith but do not believe in a sky-fairy type god, but they’re definitely not the majority.

But the problem with my experience is that it’s anecdotal.  I have read nothing about the subject, so I can’t know whether my experience reflects the wider reality of American religious culture or not.  I was just surprised to hear somebody say that it’s not.  Particularly since the places in which I grew up would never be considered fundamentalist by the mainstream in the US.

Comment #142: Jake Squid  on  07/10  at  07:49 PM

Memosyne-

A personal philosopy?  Sure, but I think you’d agree there was a difference between a philosophy and a religion.  Is this the argument that you are having then?  That these more nebulous definitions of god become more philosophy than religion?  (I’m not trying to argue with you guys, I just wanna understand.)

Comment #143: Brylock  on  07/10  at  07:52 PM

Also, very few people beyond radicals believe in Zeus/God/Sky-Fairy literally in the heavens.

I have to take issue with this, at least where Christianity is concerned.  Whether or not you believe God is literally a bearded dude in the sky, if you’re Christian you have to believe in Christ.  You have to believe he was literally the son of god, that there literally was a virgin birth, that he literally was crucified and resurrected and that the bible contains his literal teachings.  That’s what it means to be a christian - belief in christ.  If you start believing in jesus as a metaphor you are way out in radical territory - so much so that most christians will say you aren’t one of them.
If you’re trying to make christians sound more rational than they actually are you’ll have to try a different approach.

Comment #144: Nico  on  07/10  at  07:54 PM

When you watch a movie, do you think it is true?  That is a distinction I see that would seem to be important to the discussion.

Perhaps more to the point… when people watch reality television, the Blair Witch Project or professional wrestling, do they believe it is true? We know that many people do, and it’s quite possible it enhances the value of their entertainment to believe this, whether temporarily or chronically. Does it really matter? Are they better off, is the world a better place, if somebody righteously tells them the truth about heels in wrestling and selective editing and behind-the-scenes manipulation? Maybe we should make sure nobody spreads those lies about Santa Claus to kids, either. Children are not the only one who get pleasure out of the imaginary, and the blurring of the boundaries between the irrational and the rational, the real and the less-than-real.

And it’s not just entertainment pleasure, as has been pointed out by the grandmother example; the same is probably true of many spiritual and religious beliefs. I wouldn’t really know, because being an atheist, I don’t have those kinds of beliefs. But I’m not going to just assume that I’m better off, a better person, or more “sound of judgement” just because of that—that would be a very self-righteous approach smacking of evangelism, if you ask me.

Comment #145: Holly  on  07/10  at  07:56 PM

I was mainly poking fun at Chet’s extreme lack of awareness that anything can be legitimate outside the rational world.  Which tends to be the outlook of Engineering majors.

I’ve also experienced this with majors Computer Science, math, natural sciences, a few Law school graduates, and Philosophy majors….especially those fond of truth tables and rational logic. 

Ha! I went to a public magnet high school that was full of such types of students who disdained rational subjects and people as “frivolous wastes of time”.  Fortunately, there were enough of us “irrational Liberal Arts” types to resist and even push back….especially when most of us also had strong aptitudes for “rational fields” such as Chemistry and Computer technology/Science.

Comment #146: exholt  on  07/10  at  08:03 PM

Sure, but I think you’d agree there was a difference between a philosophy and a religion.

Actually, I think they’re points on the same continuum.  You can have a philosophy that falls short of a religion, but all religions have an underlying philosophy, and most philosophy was originally developed from a religious basis (unless someone is going to try to argue that Socrates and Plato were modern atheists). 

For me, trying to scientifically prove that God doesn’t exist makes about as much sense as trying to scientifically prove that Sarte was wrong and life is actually full of meaning.  (And vice versa, of course:  trying to prove in a lab that Descartes was right would be just as silly of an exercise.)

Comment #147: Mnemosyne  on  07/10  at  08:11 PM

Holly, no, that was not to the point I was trying to make.  A corollary of the point perhaps.  Any fiction can be believed true.  The distinction is between a fiction that is believed true verses on that isn’t.  This was in the context of charges against Chet’s ability to appreciate fiction.  It simply does not follow that Chet’s disdain for something false being taken as true would exclude an ability to appreciate the false for being false.

Comment #148: D  on  07/10  at  08:20 PM

Not to mention that someone who has a liberal arts-based university experience (even if they don’t eventually get a degree) will eventually come into contact with things like literary criticism and philosophy, which provide endless fodder for thinking people to start realizing that there are obviously things we all believe which are, when you get down to it, completely irrational.  But that doesn’t make them any less ‘true’.

So it’s “true” that Saddam engineered 9/11 because there are people who believe it?

(Btw, of course everyone has an irrational side. Myself included. The difference is that some of us (well ok, maybe not Chet lol, he’s a bit over the top) are aware that they are capable of irrationality and thus make adjustments to take that into account, instead of trying to convince everyone else that their irrational thoughts are the absolute truth and that OMG there’s really an invisible fire-breathing dragon living in my basement and you are a Bad Person if you don’t concur. I agree with Faye, incidentally, that lying to the grandmother was the only humane thing to do, but that’s a world away from scarring little kids with tales of hellfire and demons (which, unfortunately, seems a lot more common).

Oh, and re: philistine sciencey types ? As long as we’re gonna get anecdotal, I know religionists (not engineers, either!) who won’t read fiction or watch movies because it “might give them sinful ideas”.  Now there’s a place where understanding the difference between reality and fiction could really come in handy ...)

Comment #149: liane  on  07/10  at  08:28 PM

Mnemosyne (sorry for the misspell last time)

Ok, points on the same continuum, sure, but that would simply mean that there is a relationship between them, not that they are the same thing.  Can you say that individual religions have philosophies?  Sure, but there are also philosophies that are not attached to religions.  One does not necessarily imply the other.  I think it would be helpful for the sake of your argument if you could each lay out the definition of what is and what is not a religious belief.  As in your example, to my way of thinking, someone who liked Star Trek and tried to live a life based upon the morals of the show yet did not believe in the literal truth of the things depicted in the show would be acting upon a philosophy.  A system of belief based upon how Captain Kirk was (or would be in the future, perhaps) a real manifestation of a law giving deity, especially one who’s regard for the person affected the person’s standing in an afterlife, would probably be a religion.  Would you agree?

Comment #150: Brylock  on  07/10  at  08:30 PM

I would say that placement of that line between philosophy and religion (via definitions dependent upon his definition of ‘rational belief’) is probably what Chet is talking about when he calls people atheist who don’t apply the label to themselves (feel free to jump in here if I’m wrong).

Comment #151: Brylock  on  07/10  at  08:42 PM

<quote>It simply does not follow that Chet’s disdain for something false being taken as true would exclude an ability to appreciate the false for being false.</quote>

That brings up another good point—it’s my understanding from talking to religious people that many of them understand the truth value of “articles of faith” such as “God exists” or “there are angels watching over me, personally” to contain a different kind of truth than statements such as “1+1=2” or “water molecules are composed of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.” This is the whole “faith vs. proof” thing, right? If you ask me, that is another variety of “appreciating the false for being false,” except these things are not falsifiable because they’re not rational ideas or statements of fact.

Of course, then you have fundamentalists who believe that their articles of faith are literally true. Despite the rhetoric, I tend to agree with Dobson that the numbers of people who really literally believe in a lot of this stuff—in the same exact way that they believe the sky looks blue—are not very large. But human beings are nuanced creatures, not binary computers (even engineering majors). We can believe things are true in different ways, and there are notions of “truth” and “belief” that don’t correspond to externalities like math and falsifiable science.

I agree with Faye, incidentally, that lying to the grandmother was the only humane thing to do, but that’s a world away from scarring little kids with tales of hellfire and demons (which, unfortunately, seems a lot more common).

But are people doing this to kids because they literally believe they’re imparting true information to the kids, or as a way of reinforcing social mores, in the same way that we show car accident films in drivers’ ed to scare / scar people into understanding how important it is to wear a seatbelt and follow traffic laws? The reality is probably somewhere in between, right. But insofar as it partakes of the latter, that is a “rational” reason for telling a moralistic story to kids. It might not be a rationale you think actually works or is logical or ethical, but it’s still present in the picture.

Comment #152: Holly  on  07/10  at  08:47 PM

Hey check out all the really nice godbotherers over at Pharyngula, including everyone’s favorite, Bill Donohue.

Comment #153: Zarquon  on  07/10  at  08:51 PM

“That brings up another good point—it’s my understanding from talking to religious people that many of them understand the truth value of “articles of faith” such as “God exists” or “there are angels watching over me, personally” to contain a different kind of truth than statements such as “1+1=2” or “water molecules are composed of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.” This is the whole “faith vs. proof” thing, right? If you ask me, that is another variety of “appreciating the false for being false,” except these things are not falsifiable because they’re not rational ideas or statements of fact.”

Exactly yes.  This was why I found Pascal’s wager to be deeply offensive when I was deeply religious.

There is no virtue in faith if it is falsifiable/provable.  Then you are just believing what has been proven to true, which is rational and good, but not worthy of any sort of head-pat.

Comment #154: Ismone  on  07/10  at  09:02 PM

You have to believe he was literally the son of god, that there literally was a virgin birth, that he literally was crucified and resurrected and that the bible contains his literal teachings.

A lot of Christians do not believe this. Check out author Robert Price, for instance.

Jesuits, also, do not believe in the virgin birth or resurrection, I believe.

Comment #155: Faye  on  07/10  at  09:05 PM

Ismone:
“All that Thealogian is saying is that she does not see herself as an A-theist (one against theism) because she disagrees with the definition of Theism, that which she is supposed to oppose.”

THANK YOU

The Opoponax:
“And Thealogian, can I just say that I want to give you a big hug right now?  You are the first person in the liberal/atheist blogosphere who has been able to get across the things I’m generally trying and failing to get across.

Maybe I should look into divinity school… Though Mnemosyne is doing a bangup job, too, and her degree is in Media Crit (am I right?)…”

Cyber Hug (( )) right back!

Comment #156: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  09:24 PM

I am re-posting this for D because he/she didn’t appear to read it because he/she asked me once again define a God I subscribe to and to explain why I don’t use the term “Atheist” to describe my religious/philosophical orientation. I answered both questions within this post:

D
I’m just saying I’m not an atheist because the term means something very specific that I do not believe in, that is that the question is between the Judeo/Christian God and Not the Judeo-Christian God. To be honest, I’m pretty uncomfortable with God talk. However, I really enjoy reading Sallie McFague, Marjorie Suchoski, Carol Christ, Starhawk, even Mary Daly—and they use or explore God-talk which isn’t black/white like Chet wants. I’m just saying, its more complicated and that Atheism has a specific meaning to me, as someone who was raised in a community that included many strong Humanists/Atheists (many I love/admire) I understand that term well and know that it doesn’t describe me well. So, its not that I believe in a God per se, but that Atheism, particularly 20th Century atheism which Dawkins is a particular subscriber of, does not accurately describe my belief system because I find it too confining.
Thealogian on 07/10 at 05:01 PM

Comment #157: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  09:27 PM

“You have to believe he was literally the son of god, that there literally was a virgin birth, that he literally was crucified and resurrected and that the bible contains his literal teachings.”

So, I guess all those Methodist, Presbyterian and Episcopal friends of mine from Divinity school who are now (or on the road to be) ORDAINED CHRISTIAN MINISTERS are not Christian because they don’t literally believe Resurrection or Virgin Birth? Let alone any Unitarian, non-Trinitarian that is, Christian friends I have who do not speak in Trinitarian terms, but rather consider themselves followers of Jesus’ ministry are not allowed to be Christians, though that is the term they use? How arrogant and ignorant—to say that you get to define other people’s religion for them based upon your limited understanding of that religion.

Comment #158: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  09:33 PM

I don’t think anyone is saying Buddhism is “rational”, but that Buddhism as such does not believe in a Yahwist form of deity.

And if you think it does, I’m wondering if you grew up in Korea, and if what your family called “Buddhism” was actually “Evangelical Christianity”.

No, I didn’t grow up in Korea, and we were definitely not Christians lol. We were in a syncretic-Buddhist sect (that the Buddhists proper actually consider heretical, I believe). The things I mentioned were not beliefs exclusive to the sect, though (not that they didn’t have a whole bunch of batty ones either, of course); they were pretty mainstream, and a lot of the older people who went to “regular” temples to ask for blessings & good fortune from Buddha/assorted Bodhisattvas would mostly have described themselves as Buddhists - and yes, Buddha/the Bodhisattvas were often conceptualized as interventionist divinities who would reward/punish you and appear in visions and stuff.

(Mind you, Chinese folk-religion-inflected Buddhism is a notoriously incoherent blend of Buddhism, Taoism and (sometimes) Confucianism. I actually spent years trying to figure out what exactly it was that we were supposed to believe in, because no one would/could give me a straight answer. But most people would have used the phrase “bai fo” to describe their religious activities, which literally means to pray to Buddha.)

There was also a rather popular Hell theme-park (kinda like the Chinese version of Hell House, though a bit less obnoxious and high-drama) displaying the torments to be found in the 18 levels of hell and that sort of thing.  Definitely not a purely sectarian thing.

(See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyu> - note hall 16 for “blasphemous crooks” lol.)

I should add that I didn’t bring all this up to claim that Buddhist doctrine is irrational per se - there’s no question that the version I saw was a kind of bastardised folk-version (though I must say the reincarnation/karma thing doesn’t seem particularly rational to me either). What I meant to say was that as practised in some parts of Asia it’s far from being the rational or even atheistic religion that it’s often claimed to be - and that for the practitioners of that version (who often consider themselves to be the “real” Buddhists), it’s the “intellectualizers” who have it all wrong.  Kinda like the whole “who’s the real Christian” debate.

(For the record, I think the younger generation there who haven’t gone over to the megachurches tend to be more interested in the more “rational” version of Buddhism, which is not a bad thing. It wouldn’t surprise me, though, if their elders thought they were over-intellectualizing as well.)

Comment #159: liane  on  07/10  at  09:40 PM

But the problem with my experience is that it’s anecdotal.  I have read nothing about the subject, so I can’t know whether my experience reflects the wider reality of American religious culture or not.  I was just surprised to hear somebody say that it’s not.

No, the problem with your experience isn’t that it’s anecdotal, but that it’s ignorant.  Also, incredibly USA-centric.  From what you’ve said, it’s clear that you did not have a fundamentalist upbringing, but that you simply don’t understand what we’re talking about here because you don’t know very much about what other kinds of belief exist out there in the wider world outside Chappaqua and Amherst (and Wheaton and Colorado Springs, as well). 

Nobody here said that most religious believers in America don’t believe in a personal or devotional form of God.  I said that most religions don’t (though you’re hardly the first in this thread to misread that).  There are at least dozens, if not hundreds, of religions out in the world that I can promise that you have never heard of.  You have no idea what they believe.  And I can tell you that a great many of them don’t set any particular store in the kind of approach to deity that Christians, Muslims, and Jews believe in.

Comment #160: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  09:40 PM

“Maybe I should look into divinity school…”

Oops, forgot to mention: DON’T!!! I’m in debt $40,000 and I had a full scholarship, but it takes three years and its nearly impossible to work full-time during.

Comment #161: Thealogian  on  07/10  at  09:40 PM

Liane:

I was going to write out a nice reply to various points that you made, but after the eleventieth insane contradiction, I just decided to say this:

*headdesk*

Comment #162: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  09:42 PM

I have to say that the discussion between Chet and Thealogian has been one of the best threads I have read in ages.  I don’t find Chet frustrating or trollish at all.  His pushing on this issue has elicited a lot of insightful comments from all concerned.

Comment #163: Maggie Fox  on  07/10  at  09:51 PM

You each owe me 20USD. Also, you’re debt to me is mysterious, outside the realm of science, and answers why but not how questions. Anyone who thinks this is untrue can only be an unsophisticated thinker. I await your payments.

Comment #164: Josh Spinks  on  07/10  at  09:52 PM

I did read that Thealogian.  It does not answer the two very specific questions I asked.  Would it help you to understand the questions if god was in scare quotes, or are you very intentionally avoiding answering them?

Comment #165: D  on  07/10  at  09:54 PM

Me: His definitions of “GOD” have expanded out beyond the dogmatic western religions which define “GOD” as an anthropomorphic being to an all encompassing connective “energy” that binds the universe together.
Chet: So now, instead of God being human goodness, God is gravity? If you’re not defining God as the anthropomorphic being who grants wishes and judges the dead, then you’re playing a word-game. If you believe that God is gravity and not Santa Claus for grownups, you’re an atheist, because you don’t actually believe in God.

Faye: I believe that there is a divine spiritual force that permeats the universe.
Chet: I don’t define you as an atheist, and this idea that the only non-atheist God is Santa Claus is a strawman about me created by Mnem and others.

Seems to me you are changing your argument.
Or just hoping people are noticing you were arguing the opposite just a few posts ago.

Comment #166: cynickal  on  07/10  at  09:58 PM

Jesuits, also, do not believe in the virgin birth or resurrection, I believe.

Those things are both dogmas of the Catholic Church, so they’d better believe it.

Comment #167: Zarquon  on  07/10  at  10:01 PM

Minor point (just in response to Thealogian at 8:33 p.m.):  As a Christian-y type UU, I couldn’t imagine being offended at being told that I am not really a Christian.  I deny the resurrection, which is the central event of Christianity and without which Jesus cannot be considered “the Christ” at all.  I don’t think I have the right to rob the term “Christianity” of its meaning by insisting that I be called a Christian too just because I read the Bible, go to church, and really, really like Jesus. 

Come to think of it, maybe this isn’t such a minor point, because it seems that we are getting up on semantics a lot.  I also have no objectin to Chet calling me an “atheist.” I am the kind of atheist he is talking about, since I think of God as a metaphoric rather than literal concept.  I think you can be religious and be an atheist at the same time.  I am religious in the sense that in the sense that I think deeply and constantly about issues of ultimate concern (how am I going to live my life, how do I come to terms with my mortality,and is the whole greater than the sum of its parts as someone on this thread put it).  At the same time, I am a rationalist squarely at odds with those who insist that religious beliefs should be immune from criticism.

Comment #168: Maggie Fox  on  07/10  at  10:04 PM

The trick is, the non-anthropomorphic conception of gods will never be defined, because in fact, it doesn’t mean anything. “Sophisticated theists” will go on at great length about how it is mysterious and atheists are just being dogmatic for not understanding what theists refuse to explain, but this is all bluster because they can’t define “god”. A word without a definition is a meaningless word; when you put it in a sentence, all you get is a meaningless sentence. Therefore, “God exists” is meaningless. A meaningless sentence cannot be true; therefore, it cannot be true that “God exists”. Thus, atheism is the correct response.

Of course, some gods do have more or less coherent definitions, but all these have been falsified (no giants on Mount Olympus; the Earth is more than 6000 years old).

Comment #169: Josh Spinks  on  07/10  at  10:05 PM

In the other thread, chet argued (the first bit is what someone else said, the second is his reply):

“Just look at the widespread persecution of religious believers by the avowed atheistic Bolsheviks, Maoists, and many other regimes ruled along Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist lines.

This is a common mistake, but none of those groups were actually atheists. They deified the power of the state and of the leader.”

So between these two threads, chet has said that just because someone doesn’t believe in a god doesn’t make them an atheist and just because someone believes in god doesn’t make them a theist. He has very weird definitions of things.

Comment #170: JohnL  on  07/10  at  10:06 PM

Crap, I don’t mean to be turning into such a Chet defender (he is clearly wrong when he says that the existence of God is falsifiable), but I don’t think he has changed his argument, as Cynickal claims at 8:58.  If I understand him correctly, he is trying to make a distinction between those who believe in a transcendant physical reality without having any evidence for it, whether it is a physical God, a binding energy, or what have you.

If you are using the term God to refer to an abstract concept with no physical reality, then Chet calls you an “atheist.”  I am not sure why that is such a problem.  It seems like a useful distinction to me.  Is it the use of the term “atheist” to describe the distinction or is it that people think this is a false dichotomy somehow?  I have to admit that I am a little confused about the objections here.

Comment #171: Maggie Fox  on  07/10  at  10:12 PM

eleventieth insane contradiction

And I thought being a sterile logician was supposed to be a bad thing ! (she said innocently.)

Seriously, what’s contradictory? The idea that religious looniness exists outside of Evangelical circles?

Comment #172: liane  on  07/10  at  10:13 PM

But are people doing this to kids because they literally believe they’re imparting true information to the kids, or as a way of reinforcing social mores, in the same way that we show car accident films in drivers’ ed to scare / scar people into understanding how important it is to wear a seatbelt and follow traffic laws?

That’s a good question, and you’re right that there is a “rational” aspect to this, from a certain perspective at any rate. Will have to think it through, though the first thing that comes to mind is that the seatbelt thing can be independently verified, while something like “condoms are evil and the baby Jesus will cry if you ever use them” can’t (and is actively harmful in places like the 3rd world).

Comment #173: liane  on  07/10  at  10:16 PM

So between these two threads, chet has said that just because someone doesn’t believe in a god doesn’t make them an atheist and just because someone believes in god doesn’t make them a theist. He has very weird definitions of things.

Hey JohnL,

That someone is me.  And as I mentioned on that thread….if Chet attempted to turn in a paper arguing that Marxist-Leninism, Stalinism, and Maoism were not atheistic or that those ideologies became effective religions the way he did….even my most avowed Marxist Professors would ROTFLOL and mark down that paper for its gross oversimplifications and inexplicable conflation of intended/unintended projected political images with the actual underlying reality. 

Also, my older relatives and other immigrants who lived under such regimes may want to have a little talk to clear up some of his misconceptions….

Comment #174: exholt  on  07/10  at  10:23 PM

Cynikal’s belief that Chet switched gears mid-argument is also my own. I feel that it is bad faith to simultaneously argue that God can and cannot be a permeating energy field.

Zarquon, good call, it isn’t the Jesuits and I’m thinking of someone else. I’m drawing a blank and Wiki isn’t helping, but I do know there are sects of Christianity who don’t believe in the virgin birth. Just can’t remember who, doh!

Of course, some gods do have more or less coherent definitions, but all these have been falsified (no giants on Mount Olympus; the Earth is more than 6000 years old).

What is up with “falsifiable” today and it’s misuse? No one has proved that Zeus does not exist. No one has even proved that he doesn’t exist on Mt. Olympus. The best you can “prove” is that you went up to Mt. Olympus and you didn’t see with your eyes any physical evidence of gods living there. But, for all you know, they are invisible. Or they left before you came to visit and returned after you left. Please, please, PLEASE stop misusing the English language and stop trying to pretend that science and religion can mix because they simply cannot.

Religion cannot validate science and science cannot prove or disprove religious claims. At best, science can show that religious CLAIMS are unlikely, but you can’t even “prove” that the earth isn’t 6000 years old, but was created with an “appearance of age”. See: Last Thursdayism.

Comment #175: Faye  on  07/10  at  10:24 PM

Yeah, that’s another thing Chet’s wrong on—the whole notion that marxist societies weren’t atheistic.  But I still like his basic physical versus non-physical categories.  Not sure why he is undermining his own point by excluding marxists from his definition of atheists.

Comment #176: Maggie Fox  on  07/10  at  10:30 PM

Faye, you would reduce falsifiability to meaningless. “What do you mean the woolly mammoth is extinct? You can’t prove they didn’t all teleport to an alternate dimension where they have been flourishing for centuries!”

Comment #177: Josh Spinks  on  07/10  at  10:31 PM

I don’t think that reduces falsifiability to meaninglessness.  The very fact that something is not falsifiable means we that we are dealing with an unscientific concept, that has limited usefulness since it can be neither proven nor disproven, and that can probably be put in the category of “shit someone made up.”  The concept of falsifiability allows us to distinguish between religion and science while still allowing room for the possibility that there may be some kind of unknown reality that we don’t have the capability of grasping at present.

Comment #178: Maggie Fox  on  07/10  at  10:37 PM

Holly, you seem to be using what is essentially a Creationist argument, that people who are atheists are actually religionists that believe in Truth/Science rather than God.  That they are the same thing, they just have faith in different but equivalent things.  I think this is an imprecise analogy. 

We don’t believe in some iconic Truth as laid down by someone and never reexamine it.  We believe in things when they are actually physically demonstrated, and we realize that they may be up for emendation in the dark corners of dimensions we don’t often visit (e.g. micro and macro).  If a new phrasing of a physical law arrives that makes a better fit to physical reality, it’s a better approximation to Truth. 

This seems very different from religions, where differences in what is right or wrong can be so precipitous they can only be based on imaginary things.

I also am wondering why anyone would think that a person who wants to base his philosophy and actions on truth would not enjoy reading fiction.  I want my house to be built on a firm foundation but don’t mind standing on a beach.  They’re two different things.

Lying to the grandmother?  Yes, there’s a benefit to that.  It’s not going to be useful to tell her the truth, because she can’t do anything with it.  It’s the same as when you tell a child not to run into the street because they’ll get hit by a car and be hurt.  They might not!  but we don’t typically explain probabilities to three-year-olds.  In contrast, there’s no need to “explain” to kids there’s no God in any half-truth fashion that’s small enough for them to understand.  You just don’t tell them there’s a God.

As to what most people believe about God, if you’re a Christian and don’t “know about” Christian theology until you take a college course about it, and most people don’t take that course, then you can probably assume that most people won’t “know about” their own theology either, which makes no sense.  Their theology is what they believe, not what the theologians of their religion say it is.  Just because the theologians in a religion think God is just an idea of togetherness doesn’t mean that the believers think that way.  I get mail forwards all the time which presume that God is a conscious being who’s much like a person, who gets mad and lashes out at people who displease him in the current day, and so on.  The people who send them to me certainly don’t think of God as “togetherness” or “the ineffable.”

Thealogian, you said that atheist means “against theology.”  Maybe that’s someone’s definition, but to me, it just means “without theology,” just as an apteryx is “without wings” and an asymmetrical triangle is “without symmetry.”  I think that your definition has a chip on its shoulder.

One of the things about believing in this “directive force” God—when someone you think is doing bad things stubs his toe or gets fired, you don’t think, I’m glad, though it’s not nice of me to think so.  You think, God punished him for his wrongdoing.  And that way lies all kinds of victim-blaming and just-so stories.

Comment #179: oldfeminist  on  07/10  at  10:39 PM

Anyone can declare anything off-limits to scrutiny, science, whatever. I am the king of America, and this claim is not susceptible to rational inquiry. Not a very impressive argument, is it? But it is exactly what is being done with gods.

Comment #180: Josh Spinks  on  07/10  at  10:42 PM

Josh, being a math guy, I have to lean towards Faye on this. To be falsifiable, a statement first needs defined terms—so once numbers and addition is defined, the statement 1+1=3 can be shown to be false. The problem with most gods is they are usually ‘defined’ to have powers that makes them difficult to find and so it’s pretty much impossible to prove they’re false.

Also, your extinct example might not be the best: there have been a few recent cases where something was thought to be long extinct and then were found (I would be very surprise if a wooly mammoth turned up though).

Comment #181: JohnL  on  07/10  at  10:44 PM

Josh, religions and gods are not falsifiable. For some thing to be scientifically falsifiable, it has to be capable of being observed, tested, poked at, something. You and I have to be able to observe the same things at the same times.

And, by the way, a basic tenet is that you can’t prove a universal negative. Every science book in the world will tell you, upfront, that you cannot prove that there is not - somewhere on this earth - a single surviving woolly mammoth. Because that’s a limitation of science.

Science can, to certain extents prove what is. Science can provide evidence for what might have been. Science can provide falsifiable claims for what may come. But these proofs, claims, and evidence must come from the physical world, something which most gods - by definition - do not inhabit. They cannot be “proved” that they do not exist. Likewise, it cannot be proved that they DO exist, unless they were to submit to physical tests and proof.

That is a basic limitation of science, not something I came up with to bug the heck out of you.

Comment #182: Faye  on  07/10  at  10:44 PM

Let me ask, how does anyone acquire the knowledge that gods are not falsifiable? What if there is a god and an empirical test that just has not been thought up yet that would prove that that god exists? You can’t prove that’s not true, can you? But since there’s no evidence there is such a test, you disbelieve and say that gods cannot be falsified. But once you accepted that it is rational to reject things for which there is no evidence (such as empirical tests that will prove there is a god), you must become an atheist to be logically consistent. Otherwise, you cannot claim that we can’t prove whether there is a god, because you can’t prove that we can’t.

Comment #183: Josh Spinks  on  07/10  at  10:47 PM

Anyone can declare anything off-limits to scrutiny, science, whatever. I am the king of America, and this claim is not susceptible to rational inquiry. Not a very impressive argument, is it? But it is exactly what is being done with gods.

Saying something isn’t falsifiable doesn’t mean that it is off limits to scrutiny.  Determining that it is unfalsifiable IS the scrutiny.  If you want to influence public policy by saying (for example), “God said gay people can’t marry,” then I have the right to say and I should say, “That is unfalsfiable, i.e. shit someone made up, shit you are claiming is true just because you say so, which I don’t find to be an adequate justification for the policy you are promoting.”

Comment #184: Maggie Fox  on  07/10  at  10:48 PM

In others, I have mystical knowledge, off limits to science, that there is no god. Now you are no longer allowed to tell me I don’t know if there is a god, because you can’t prove I don’t know.

Comment #185: Josh Spinks  on  07/10  at  10:51 PM

Josh, knowing the limitations of science does not mean that someone is antagonistic to science.

I didn’t “acquire the knowledge that gods are not falsifiable”. Gods exist, by definition, in a spiritual realm that cannot be observed, tested, recorded, or physical modified by our world. Please tell me, exactly, how you would go about proving that Zeus doesn’t exist?

While you are at it, prove to me that there are no invisible pink unicorns.

You can’t. Neither can I prove that there ARE invisible pink unicorns! I can, if I choose, believe they exists. You can believe they can’t exist. Your belief may be ‘superior’ to mine, in a logical sense, because it is based ON the absense of evidence (You won’t believe without evidence) whereas mine is based IN SPITE OF the absense of evidence. And it’s okay to point that little fact out, along with your belief that such thinking is superior.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that you can’t prove my belief in invisible unicorns is wrong.

Comment #186: Faye  on  07/10  at  10:52 PM

Stop telling me I can’t prove it when I have already told you you can’t prove I have a mystical, not-available-to-science proof that there are no god!

Comment #187: Josh Spinks  on  07/10  at  10:54 PM

or you can’t prove I don’t, I should have said.

Anyway, you can’t prove I didn’t type it right the first type, but you are imaginng it wrong, and also, this correcting post is an illusion.

Comment #188: Josh Spinks  on  07/10  at  10:54 PM

In others, I have mystical knowledge, off limits to science, that there is no god. Now you are no longer allowed to tell me I don’t know if there is a god, because you can’t prove I don’t know.

That is EXACTLY correct!

I cannot tell you that you don’t know if there is a god. I can only tell you that I don’t believe in the god you believe in.

I may also point out that there is no physical evidence for the existence of your god. I may point out that there is no need for your god - physical evidence can account for everything in the universe without him (God of the Gaps). I may point out that there is philosophical doubt regarding your god (why doesn’t he do anything we can observe?). But I cannot prove he doesn’t exist - nor can I prove you don’t know he exists.

Comment #189: Faye  on  07/10  at  10:55 PM

In others, I have mystical knowledge, off limits to science, that there is no god. Now you are no longer allowed to tell me I don’t know if there is a god, because you can’t prove I don’t know. 

Falsifiability is a concept that illustrates (to me) both the limitations and strengths of science.  Science is anchored in what is physically observable—and it admits and adheres to that limitation.  Promoters of religious belief will hide behind falsifiability to claim some kind of mystical knowledge that can’t be questioned.  But, on the flip side, folks like you and me can say, “Gee, you can’t base any kind of policy on such-and-such belief because it isn’t falsifiable and you have know way of really knowing/proving it.”  The inability to falsify “intelligent design” is the whole basis for excluding it from science education in the public schools.

Comment #190: Maggie Fox  on  07/10  at  10:57 PM

And Maggie, agreed on Intelligent Design (AND Last Thursdayism!).

Intelligent Design cannot be proven false. If it could, we would be over and done with this sillyness once and for all. The fact that it cannot be proven false is the reason it is alive today. However, the fact that it cannot be proven false also means that it is not a matter of science, which means that it should not be taught in a science class.

At best, ID should be taught in a philosophy class. But the adherents are really only interested in undermining evolution (which IS science and DOES make falsifiable claims), so that isn’t an acceptable compromise to them.

Comment #191: Faye  on  07/10  at  11:01 PM

But if we’re going to be solipsists, why should we care about anything? We must have some method of determine that some claims are more worthy of belief than others, or why read Pandagon. Why not just say “misogyny is over and this truth is mystical, our contrary impressions are illusions”. No one accepts this sort of reasoning, except with respect traditional supernatural claims (“you supernaturally owe me your life savings” isn’t going to get you very far).

Comment #192: Josh Spinks  on  07/10  at  11:03 PM

Josh, religions and gods are not falsifiable.

That would depend quite a lot on the religion and god in question.  You go on about Zeus, but you’re moving the goalposts as it were.  As soon as one version of Zeus is disproven the version is changed to a new gap.  Many religions make statements that are indeed falsifiable.  And yes, that the earth is 6kyo is one of them unless you want to claim it is impossible to know anything, which as has been said, makes it all meaningless.  We’ve falsified quite a lot, but those goalpost keep shifting, or the adherents simply ignore reality.

Comment #193: D  on  07/10  at  11:05 PM

P.S. to Opoponax:

I think it’s awfully amusing that you rag on Jake Squid for being ignorant and parochial when at the same time you find it impossible to wrap your head around the idea that my personal experience of religion in Asia (and I spent 18 years there) wasn’t anything like your idealized conception of it ... to the point that you imply that I’m too dumb to know the difference between (albeit Chinese-flavored) Buddhism and evangelical Christianity. Condescending much?

(No doubt that’s why you accuse Jake Squid of being “ignorant” - his experiences didn’t fit your preconceptions, therefore he must be wrong. And he wasn’t even rude to you or anything, iirc. Sometimes I think the theists most prone to getting the vapors about “rude, condescending atheists” are just incredibly talented when it comes to projection.)

Comment #194: liane  on  07/10  at  11:06 PM

BTW, people who equate atheism with Soviet communism or Maoism in an attempt to make atheism look bad are talking bullshit. Atheism is not an ideology. Christianities, communisms and fascisms are ideologies. Atheism means that you don’t believe in the existence of gods. It forces no other conclusions. So you can’t judge atheism by the behaviour of atheists, because it doesn’t mandate behaviour. Religions do mandate behaviour and, by inspection, the behaviour is mostly fucked up.

Comment #195: Zarquon  on  07/10  at  11:07 PM

Well, you can’t judge the truth-value of a proposition by the actions of it’s believers, unless, of course, the proposition is about their actions. The communism angle is mostly a rejoinder to lists of the misdeeds of religious groups.

Comment #196: Josh Spinks  on  07/10  at  11:15 PM

But if we’re going to be solipsists, why should we care about anything? We must have some method of determine that some claims are more worthy of belief than others, or why read Pandagon. Why not just say “misogyny is over and this truth is mystical, our contrary impressions are illusions”. No one accepts this sort of reasoning, except with respect traditional supernatural claims (“you supernaturally owe me your life savings” isn’t going to get you very far).

Yes, there are many methods of determining which claims are more worthy of belief. “Proof” is merely one of many. I’ve already pointed out quite a few. Why don’t you read my posts? Oh, hell, I’ll shorten them for you:

If you have no evidence for god, why believe? What benefits does this belief provide to you and others? What consequences accompany these benefits? If science can explain the physical world without the need of a god, why believe on exists? If your god exists, why is there no physical evidence? For example, why does your god not heal amputees? If your god is good and omnipotent and willing to intervene, why does s/he not prevent floods that kill babies? If your god designed humans, why do we have imperfect bodies (ectopic pregnancies, for example)?

All these are very good reasons to question claims and validity of beliefs. But these are not proof that god does or doesn’t exist.

And if you really think I’m a “solipsist” for stating that science can’t prove a universal negative, all my science books in college were written by solipsists….

That would depend quite a lot on the religion and god in question.  You go on about Zeus, but you’re moving the goalposts as it were.  As soon as one version of Zeus is disproven the version is changed to a new gap.  Many religions make statements that are indeed falsifiable.  And yes, that the earth is 6kyo is one of them unless you want to claim it is impossible to know anything, which as has been said, makes it all meaningless.  We’ve falsified quite a lot, but those goalpost keep shifting, or the adherents simply ignore reality.

I didn’t “go on about” Zeus - I was responding to the point that he has been supposedly proven to not exist. And this is not the case. I’m not moving goalposts either - plenty of authentic Greek myths out there have him masquerading on earth as a human, just to get his jollies. I can logically point out that just because you didn’t see him on Olympus does not mean he isn’t walking around New York right now. If you don’t like it, take it up with Science and don’t shoot the messenger.

And - just to be clear - you simply cannot prove that the earth wasn’t created by an omnipotent god last Thursday, but created in such a way as to appear to be 5 billion years old. That is NOT a good reason to believe that the earth was created last Thursday, just that you cannot PROVE it wasn’t.

Comment #197: Faye  on  07/10  at  11:21 PM

This was a great discussion thread.

I used to be a pretty fervent atheist - the result of some close encounters with fundamentalist Christians who believed the Bible was literally true.  I remember, as a little girl, flipping through this children’s bible book with the story of the Flood, and looking at the pictures of all the animals walking onto the Ark, and thinking, “They think this stuff really happened?  This is so dumb!”

Later when I grew up a bit and got some exposure to non-sky-daddy world views, I started to be a bit more humble about my ability to judge the human history of metaphysical philosophy beyond the evidence of eyes and ears.

Most importantly I started meditating and practising yoga - originally for health reasons.  A few times after an intense yoga practice I would have these incredible *experiences* of overwhelming love and connectedness to living beings and the earth.  Some of these experiences were in natural settings and I felt that I could tune into the life force of the trees and flowers and even the rocks around me.  Those experiences pretty much blew the lid off my ability to make smug assertions about knowing for sure the way the world worked.  (They also led to concrete changes in my life as I reevaluated my perspectives on my relationships and goals).

Sure, you can say that an experience of profound love and connectedness is because the brain has been stimulated to produce more oxytocin and serotonin and that my neurotransmitters were firing differently.  But to me that just seems like putting different vocab on top of a mystery.

Do I believe in God?  Yes, I think so, probably.  I certainly believe there are “more things in heaven and earth than dreamt of in [my] philosophy.”  Do I believe in a God who’s gendered male, has a white beard and sits on a cloud?  Nah, probably not (and I reckon He’s probably stuffed with straw anyway).  But I’m definitely not an atheist anymore.

Comment #198: Zoe  on  07/10  at  11:29 PM

And, just to prove I’m not making up some nice strawman god, I’ll answer those ‘validity’ questions for my own religion, just to be cooperative!

If you have no evidence for god, why believe? What benefits does this belief provide to you and others? What consequences accompany these benefits?

The benefits for me are that I feel a greater sense of connectedness to the world around me. I live in and grew up in very urban areas and a belief in a oneness with the earth helped bring back to me a feeling of connection with something larger, older, and more important than me. This benefit brings me greater happiness and self-confidence. I don’t share my religion with others overtly, but I think they benefit from me being happier. ‘Others’ also benefit in that I tend to vote more towards human-rights legislation (like gay marriage) because I see us all as part of one brother/sisterhood and I want them to be happy, too. The consequences are that I choose to purchase Wiccan-themed jewelry more than I should. I’m happy to bear this burden.

If science can explain the physical world without the need of a god, why believe on exists?

I do so purely for the reasons outlined above. I do not believe my goddess created the earth, or the universe, or anything else. Evolution is good enough for the both of us.

If your god exists, why is there no physical evidence? For example, why does your god not heal amputees? If your god is good and omnipotent and willing to intervene, why does s/he not prevent floods that kill babies? If your god designed humans, why do we have imperfect bodies (ectopic pregnancies, for example)?

My goddess did not design us - evolution did. Hence the occassional imperfection. As is a conscious entity, but she cannot intervene physically and directly in my life any more than I can in hers. The link - if it can be called that, as this is not a ‘personal’ relationship like the Christian Jesus - is a distant, spirtual one only. I try to draw from her strength and wisdom and I try, in return, to keep the earth as clean and healthy as this one little person can. 

Please feel free to explain how you can prove this being does not exist? You can’t. Which doesn’t mean you should believe in her - far from it! It is completely acceptable to chose, in the face of no evidence, not to believe when not-believing makes as much sense or more to you than believing. My point is merely that my belief exists outside the realm of proof and falsifiability.

And Dawkins will tell you that, too.

Comment #199: Faye  on  07/10  at  11:34 PM

I was mainly poking fun at Chet’s extreme lack of awareness that anything can be legitimate outside the rational world.  Which tends to be the outlook of Engineering majors.

Opoponax, as an engineer, I take great offense to this statement. 

Engineers tend to look at the physical world as rational and law obeying.  They do not all, nor even most, wholy deny any possibility of a mystical or unexplainable beyond.  I myself am currently agnostic, but not too worried about the state of my soul because of that.  Usually I don’t even think about it except when I have to deal with the unrational to the point of insanity fundies who claim their beliefs trump demonstrated reality.

Comment #200: Helen H  on  07/10  at  11:35 PM

Faye, you don’t understand science.  That’s all I can surmise.  I can assure you we don’t all sit around our labs all day saying, “Well, we can’t actually prove/disprove anything, oh well.”  It isn’t a game of absolutes.  As long as you consider proof to be absolute 100.00000% certainty, you aren’t talking about anything real.  And if you took those books to mean that’s what science actually is, you or they are mistaken.

Comment #201: D  on  07/10  at  11:43 PM

“Engineers tend to look at the physical world as rational and law obeying.  They do not all, nor even most, wholy deny any possibility of a mystical or unexplainable beyond.” Helen H on 07/10 at 10:35 PM

Yeah, in fact I read somewhere that a large percentage of fanatical Muslim terrorists happen to be engineers - not that that probably makes you feel better Helen wink  But it may not be anything about engineering that makes them fanatics, but that the fanatics who also happen to be engineers rise up higher in the ranks of terrorist organisations because they’re better at making bombs.

Comment #202: Zoe  on  07/10  at  11:45 PM

Falsifiability surely is a slippery concept - the usual saying is, as I understand it, that the more specific the description of the god the more falsifiable it is. Thus the endless lure of the vague god-concept.

Chet went too far (again!) but he has a point - atheism is lack of belief in a deity. Solely metaphorical belief would seem to qualify. I see that this upsets people but I’m not sure why.

I think I will stop and contemplate there, because there’s a couple of people in this thread who have made me really angry, and I in turn would like to understand exactly why before I just go off like a bomb.

Comment #203: Shell Goddamnit  on  07/10  at  11:47 PM

Holly, you seem to be using what is essentially a Creationist argument, that people who are atheists are actually religionists that believe in Truth/Science rather than God.  That they are the same thing, they just have faith in different but equivalent things.  I think this is an imprecise analogy.

We don’t believe in some iconic Truth as laid down by someone and never reexamine it.  We believe in things when they are actually physically demonstrated, and we realize that they may be up for emendation in the dark corners of dimensions we don’t often visit (e.g. micro and macro).  If a new phrasing of a physical law arrives that makes a better fit to physical reality, it’s a better approximation to Truth.

This seems very different from religions, where differences in what is right or wrong can be so precipitous they can only be based on imaginary things.

I also am wondering why anyone would think that a person who wants to base his philosophy and actions on truth would not enjoy reading fiction.  I want my house to be built on a firm foundation but don’t mind standing on a beach.  They’re two different things.

Lying to the grandmother?  Yes, there’s a benefit to that.  It’s not going to be useful to tell her the truth, because she can’t do anything with it.  It’s the same as when you tell a child not to run into the street because they’ll get hit by a car and be hurt.  They might not!  but we don’t typically explain probabilities to three-year-olds.  In contrast, there’s no need to “explain” to kids there’s no God in any half-truth fashion that’s small enough for them to understand.  You just don’t tell them there’s a God.

As to what most people believe about God, if you’re a Christian and don’t “know about” Christian theology until you take a college course about it, and most people don’t take that course, then you can probably assume that most people won’t “know about” their own theology either, which makes no sense.  Their theology is what they believe, not what the theologians of their religion say it is.  Just because the theologians in a religion think God is just an idea of togetherness doesn’t mean that the believers think that way.  I get mail forwards all the time which presume that God is a conscious being who’s much like a person, who gets mad and lashes out at people who displease him in the current day, and so on.  The people who send them to me certainly don’t think of God as “togetherness” or “the ineffable.”

Thealogian, you said that atheist means “against theology.” Maybe that’s someone’s definition, but to me, it just means “without theology,” just as an apteryx is “without wings” and an asymmetrical triangle is “without symmetry.” I think that your definition has a chip on its shoulder.

One of the things about believing in this “directive force” God—when someone you think is doing bad things stubs his toe or gets fired, you don’t think, I’m glad, though it’s not nice of me to think so.  You think, God punished him for his wrongdoing.  And that way lies all kinds of victim-blaming and just-so stories.
JoAnne on 07/10 at 09:39 PM

Wow, great comment!

Comment #204: m/ke  on  07/10  at  11:55 PM

BTW, people who equate atheism with Soviet communism or Maoism in an attempt to make atheism look bad are talking bullshit. Atheism is not an ideology. Christianities, communisms and fascisms are ideologies. Atheism means that you don’t believe in the existence of gods. It forces no other conclusions. So you can’t judge atheism by the behaviour of atheists, because it doesn’t mandate behaviour. Religions do mandate behaviour and, by inspection, the behaviour is mostly fucked up.

In the comment above, I am detecting the same equivocation to disassociate atheism from its avowed association with Marxist-Leninism, Stalinism, or Maoism that I’ve encountered among many Christians who attempt to explain their own religions’ bloody murderous legacy by saying “Oh, those Crusaders, colonialist missionaries, antisemites, racists, etc were not true Christians living in accordance with Jesus’ teachings”.  I must respectfully, but strongly disagree. 

Like it or not, practicing atheists were part of those Marxist-Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist, or other Marxist derived regimes…..and were so oppressive, brutal, and murderous that they were only exceeded in ferocity by the Fascist Axis powers during the Second Sino-Japanese War/WWII.  Two events which come to mind include Stalin’s purges and the unknown millions who died due to the brutalities and excesses of the Cultural Revolution which some family members experienced firsthand.

Interestingly, most atheists I’ve met had no problems acknowledging the iniquities of avowed atheistic movements like Marxist-Leninism and Maoism and to even use their existence to explain that no membership or subscription to any belief/non-belief automatically immunizes one from oppressing, brutalizing, and killing other human beings.  A wise few even stated that to believe that being an atheist, christian, or any other religion, philosophy, or ideology automatically confers this sort of immunization is itself a form of self-delusion and dangerous.  As a result, I’ve gained a great deal of respect for atheists as a group from those long after-work conversations.

Comment #205: exholt  on  07/11  at  01:05 AM

Maggie Fox:
“As a Christian-y type UU, I couldn’t imagine being offended at being told that I am not really a Christian.”

I totally get that, but in the case of some of my more Mainline Protestant friends who happen to not believe in the Virgin Birth or the literal Resurrection, “Christian” is a term that they hold dead and which I believe they have the right to call themselves.

Joann:
“Their theology is what they believe, not what the theologians of their religion say it is.  Just because the theologians in a religion think God is just an idea of togetherness doesn’t mean that the believers think that way.  I get mail forwards all the time which presume that God is a conscious being who’s much like a person, who gets mad and lashes out at people who displease him in the current day, and so on.  The people who send them to me certainly don’t think of God as “togetherness” or “the ineffable.”

I get what you are saying, and again I should emphasize that I recently graduated from Divinity School, so most of the Christians I debated/discussed/read about theology with were highly educated Christians studying in a very liberal institution. Of course, one of the constants we all talked about, “Are our congregations ready?”—meaning reading for the “via negativia”—which is the lest festooned version of Christianity, where literalism is to be avoided and metaphors explored, was a constant source of anxiety for my peers. Few too ministers really tell their congregations what their believe.

Comment #206: Thealogian  on  07/11  at  01:05 AM

Holly, you seem to be using what is essentially a Creationist argument, that people who are atheists are actually religionists that believe in Truth/Science rather than God.  That they are the same thing, they just have faith in different but equivalent things.  I think this is an imprecise analogy.

Oh not at all. I mean, I’m an atheist and I don’t have Chet’s faith-like attitude towards the ineffable and inherent superiority of Truth. None of the ways I was describing Chet were meant as a broader analogy about other atheists at all. It’s possible to be an atheist and still have a quasi-mystical, irrational belief in something—it’s just something else instead of God. See also: scientism. I also disagree with what you seem to be implying, that all atheists believe in the primacy of Truth and rationalism, or even materialism. All you have to do to be an atheist is to express a belief that there is no God.

This seems very different from religions, where differences in what is right or wrong can be so precipitous they can only be based on imaginary things.

If you’re talking about “right and wrong,” we are in the realm of ethics, which is quite different from hard science or math where you can establish some objective, measurable truths. Even in purely secular ethics, we are making a lot of suppositions about what we think “the good” is, what we hypothesize is going to lead to better outcomes, what our “gut” tells is moral or immoral, etc. We can puzzle this stuff out in a rational way, but because ethics is about as “soft” as it gets (with the exception of ethnomusicology, of course) there is going to be a lot of imagination involved. And that’s not a bad thing.

If your sole criteria is imagination, I don’t know that you’re going to be able to establish a huge difference between religion and secular ethics. Where there’s a huge difference, as I understand it, is in the deference to tradition, which for many ancient religious institutions makes them automatically more conservative, in an irrational and often harmful. But even within those institutions, there are counter-currents, and attempts to focus on teachings that are about ethics, rather than precipitous and arbitrary decisions.

Comment #207: Holly  on  07/11  at  01:13 AM

Chet went too far (again!) but he has a point - atheism is lack of belief in a deity. Solely metaphorical belief would seem to qualify. I see that this upsets people but I’m not sure why.

I think what was upsetting to some was the insistence that certain kinds of belief in God (like what you’re referring to as metaphorical belief) don’t actually qualify as theism, even though they revolve around an idea of God. This amounts to forcing the word “atheism” down the throats of religious people who don’t identify as atheists, and it’s not hard to understand why that feels wrong.

For instance, there are an awful lot of Christians, even ministers and so forth as has been pointed out, who do not literally believe in God. But this is not a black-and-white binary affair. It’s not “you either literally believe in God, or you are an atheist.” That’s preposterous. There is a huge grey area in between where people are quite capable of believing things in a non-literal way that’s also not simply a figure of speech like a metaphor. Saying “God is love” is not even exactly a metaphor. A metaphor is a literary device where you’re comparing the quality of two things to a strong degree, suggesting that they in some senses are equivalent. “That Susan is an angel for baking me a cake.” There’s no belief that Susan is actually an angel. When you say “God is love” on the other hand, I understand it to mean that that is literally what God consists of and vice versa, and it’s not simply another name either; it’s describing another dimension of love that goes beyond the dictionary definition.

Comment #208: Holly  on  07/11  at  01:19 AM

Like it or not, practicing atheists were part of those Marxist-Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist, or other Marxist derived regimes

I am not denying this. But just because those regimes espoused atheism this has no bearing on anyone else. They do not define atheism and they do not represent my atheism, since as I pointed out before, atheism is not an ideology. I am not an atheist because i believe in dialectical materialism, I am an atheist because I don’t believe in gods.

Comment #209: Zarquon  on  07/11  at  02:06 AM

Holly, thanks for that comment.  I had been getting confused about WHY everyone’s been arguing and WHAT the basis of disagreement is.  This may also go to the heart of Amanda’s point.

Right now the Religious Right has declared a “culture war” (to borrow their terminology) in a quest to have both public policy and private life governed by the say-so of their Sky-Fairy, whom they believe is a literal, physical being.  In order to accomplish this, they want blind, unproven faith in the specific literal events of the Bible and statements by God contained therein to have as much respect as rational discourse and the scientific method.  They rely on the idea that it is impolite or wrong to criticize or even disavow religious belief.  Part of the point of this post is that they are able to get away with this becaues so many non-fundies, including liberal atheists and liberals of other religious stripes, buy into this idea that it is horribly wrong and obnoxious to say anything negative about someone’s religion.

So Chet’s ideas are helpful here.  I am hearing a lot of liberal people on this thread saying basically, “I don’t like the word ‘atheist’ because I hold what I consider to be profound religious beliefs, and I don’t want the term ‘atheist’ used to describe those beliefs, even though they are essentially abstractions that are not comparable to the Sky-Fairy ideas that are being used against gay people, women, and others.”  As a result of this kind of attitude, the distinction in the public mind between “God Says So” types and more liberal believers is a little fuzzier than it needs to be and that fuzziness gives theocrats the cover they need to make more headway in the culture wars. 

That’s why Chet’s categories (irrational belief in a transcendant physical entity = theist // lack of belief in a transcendant physical entity = atheist) are useful distinctions to make.  It seems that the only objection is to the word “atheist,” perhaps because it has a connotation that seems to deny the very real, very profound religious feelings held or experienced by people like Thealogian.  So maybe there is some other word we can use that would help cement the distinction Chet and Amanda are trying to make in the public mind.

I agree that saying “God is love” is not exactly a metaphor.  But it is an abstraction.  Using religious terminology to describe abstract ideas or subjective feelings is fine and is not inconsistent with atheism.  The people whom Chet and Amanda criticize (if I understand correctly) are those who believe in a literal, physical God who has a right to tell you and me what to do.

Comment #210: Maggie Fox  on  07/11  at  05:45 AM

Good grief…

OK, one question and one question only: how would one distinguish between a non-falsifiable god and a non-existent god?

Comment #211: Dunc  on  07/11  at  06:46 AM

Love is love.

There’s an attempt going on to define everything good as god.  Wow, wonder what Durkheim might say about that.

OK, one question and one question only: how would one distinguish between a non-falsifiable god and a non-existent god?

Love!

Comment #212: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/11  at  07:34 AM

Faye, you don’t understand science.  That’s all I can surmise.  I can assure you we don’t all sit around our labs all day saying, “Well, we can’t actually prove/disprove anything, oh well.” It isn’t a game of absolutes.

I highly doubt that YOU are a scientist, despite your sudden pronoun switch to ‘we’, especially since a careful reading will note that I never said this is the case. If you did a little research, you’d actually be surprised how little of science revolves around concepts like “proof”. The bulk of science revolves around observing, collecting data, drawing conclusions, and then testing and refining those conclusion repeatedly. Scientists shy away from ‘proof’ because there is really very little value in something so absolute.

However, since you continue to insist that I’m wrong and that the non-existence of god CAN be disproven, and since you’re supposedly scientist-enough to perform this proof, please do so. Not just for me - there’s a lot of money to be had in it. However, keep in mind that Dawkins, Sagan, and Carrier all back me up on the inability of science to disprove god, so keep in mind that if you’re arguing with me on this point, you’re also arguing with them. And, frankly, they seem much smarter than you.

Comment #213: Faye  on  07/11  at  08:52 AM

Faye, to expand a bit.  Upon reflection, you seem to be mistaking philosophy of science for science.  They are related, but not the same. 

As for disproving, or falsifying a god;  if a god is defined by parameters that are testable, it can be proven or disproven.  So if god A has fixed parameters X, Y & Z, and you can observe nothing that has such qualities, then god A has been falsified.  If you then claim god A hasn’t actually been falsified because it actually has parameter T and not Y, you’ve just moved the goal posts.  Just like when you talk about Zeus is invisible.  You are no longer talking about god A, but now god B.  And because I sense this is something that confuses people, there is a difference between observing a negative and not observing a positive.  The former disproves the opposing positive, while the later only suggests an opposing negative.

Comment #214: D  on  07/11  at  08:53 AM

Wiki: “Falsifiability (or refutability or testability) is the logical possibility that an assertion can be shown false by an observation or a physical experiment. That something is “falsifiable” does not mean it is false; rather, that if it is false, then this can be shown by observation or experiment. Falsifiability is an important concept in science and the philosophy of science.”

Anyone who disagrees with this definition, please propose an experiment which can show, by observation or physical experiment, that there is no god.

Or, if you like to narrow it down, pick a god. My “energy field” god, for example, or Zeus.

Comment #215: Faye  on  07/11  at  08:55 AM

So if god A has fixed parameters X, Y & Z, and you can observe nothing that has such qualities, then god A has been falsified.

And if parameters X, Y, and Z are not observable? You still haven’t shown how to falsify any gods, let alone one. And I’m not moving goalposts saying that Zeus can be invisible, read some mythology and blame Homer, not me. The gods in the Illiad and regularly invisible presences on the battleground.

Comment #216: Faye  on  07/11  at  08:57 AM

The gods in the Illiad and regularly invisible presences on the battleground.

Should be: “The gods in the Illiad ARE regularly invisible presences on the battleground.”

And you still maintain that gods can be disproven? How? Saying you fail to observe one, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. (Note comment upthread about “extinct” animals which aren’t.)

Comment #217: Faye  on  07/11  at  08:58 AM

Faye, to expand a bit.  Upon reflection, you seem to be mistaking philosophy of science for science.  They are related, but not the same.

D, I will also add that I’m sick and tired of people not reading. Chet and a couple of others barged in here and made a lot of stupid statements about “falsifiablility”. I corrected them, and then you decided to come in here and take issue with the following “issues”:

1. Your belief that falsifiability doesn’t matter with regards to ‘real’ science. Fine, I really don’t care about whatever crazy beliefs you hold. I was correcting definitions, because I was tired of people looking stupid and using an important word wrong. I was NOT arguing that falsifiability is the be-all, end-all of science, just that falsifiability doesn’t - by definition - apply to god, or angels, or invisible unicorns.

2. Your belief that I ‘move goalposts’ because you assume (in your ignorance) that everything I say about gods is made up to prove a point. Assuming that I’m just making stuff up because you don’t like what I say is not an intellectually honest approach to an argument. (Which is why I doubt you’re a scientist in RL.)

3. Your condescending belief that I don’t know jack about science because you disagree with me, plus the fact that you won’t in good faith answer a simple question: If god is falsifiable, how do you falsify him/her/it?

I see you’d rather condescend to me and just assure me that you’re right rather than participate in the debate, and I don’t feed trolls.

Comment #218: Faye  on  07/11  at  09:08 AM

It seems you aren’t open to what you haven’t already convinced yourself to be correct.  You are quite pointedly ignoring distinctions I’ve already made about testable vs untestable and positive vs negative observations (which I have also heard Dawkins making, so you can dispense with your appeals to authority).  If you don’t understand the distinctions and are actually commenting in good faith, ask about what you don’t understand.  I am not going to bother responding to bad faith insults and handwavery.

Comment #219: D  on  07/11  at  09:10 AM

It seems that the only objection is to the word “atheist,” perhaps because it has a connotation that seems to deny the very real, very profound religious feelings held or experienced by people like Thealogian.  So maybe there is some other word we can use that would help cement the distinction Chet and Amanda are trying to make in the public mind.

I thought that’s what the word “fundamentalist” was for, connoting the belief that the Word of God (as conveniently instantiated in the manuscript you happen to like that’s somehow in your language) is literally true and needs to be obeyed as such.

So, if I’m reading you correctly, the point is to try and get all the non-fundamentalist religious people, all those masses who don’t believe everything in the Bible is literally true, or simply don’t really care that much, to realize that they have more in common with atheists than with fundamentalists. This seems like a worthwhile goal to me, but I don’t think the way to do that is to say “even though you THINK you’re religious, wake up and smell the coffee, you’re actually an atheist!” I mean come on, that just smacks of evangelism, and shouldn’t we be going the opposite direction?

There are a lot of currents that do move towards this distinction—between fundies and everyone else. Already in some more lefty circles, it’s important to establish (or rely on assumptions) that you are NOT a fundamentalist if you are going to discuss your religious beliefs, because of all the socially conservative and bigoted attitudes that often entails. Another really important part of that movement is in the clergy, the “via negativia” that was mentioned earlier, which seminaries are wondering if congregations are ready for.

There are plenty of churches out there which promote the abstract, symbolic, community-focused, non-fundamentalist views of God and whatnot far more than they do the fundamentalist worldview. If you really want to point out the differences between fundamentalist “God literally exists and will throw a real thunderbolt at you” types and everyone else, the solution is not to make fun of the idea of God, even though it’s an idea you (and I) don’t subscribe to. It’s to support a different kind of church, one that has been growing for a long time.

I don’t think it’s too much to ask of atheists to be aware of this stuff. I am, largely because although I was raised not to believe in God, my parents also felt it was important to expose me to religious ideas by taking me to different kinds of church services, masses, synagogues, shrines, meditation retreats, cathedrals and so on and so forth. Although I was really annoyed some of the time when I was a kid having to sit through religious stuff, I think I came away with a different kind of appreciation of it, even though it wasn’t what my family believed in or practiced. It’s kind of like what Obama was saying about Spanish. If you really want to raise your kids to be able to decide for themselves about religion, you ought to expose them to religion.

Comment #220: Holly  on  07/11  at  09:38 AM

In other words, that’s the answer to the question Amanda poses. Why should the non-religious be nice to those religious people, when that lets the real power-mongering fundamentalist assholes get away with silencing? Well, because a whole bunch of the religious people are actually on our side when it comes down to the difference between fundamentalist / dominionist beliefs and everyone else, and it IS a good idea to be nice to them and not tell them “you’re really an atheist, admit it!” Furthermore, if you believe in the principle of freedom of (and from) religion, then tolerance should be a two-way street. Of course, religious people should respect atheists (which is not happening in our society at large). Vice versa is also true. Do you want to sink to their level?

Comment #221: Holly  on  07/11  at  09:41 AM

Anyone who disagrees with this definition, please propose an experiment which can show, by observation or physical experiment, that there is no god.

OK, I can’t resist… Second question: do you believe in everything which can’t be explicitly disproven? If you do, that’s a particularly large infinity of contradictory beliefs. If you don’t, how do you chose which to believe and which not to believe?

Personally, I prefer to only believe in things for which there is some kind of positive evidence. “You can’t prove it doesn’t exist” is not any kind of positive evidence.

If god is falsifiable, how do you falsify him/her/it?

That depends entirely on the specific attributes of the hypothetical god in question. If the existence of this hypothetical god necessarily results in an observable effect, then you look for that effect (modus tollens disproof: If A, then B; Not B; Therefore, not A - note that this does not necessarily work in reverse). If the hypothetical god in question does not result in any observable effect, then in what sense could it be said to exist?

The fundamental epistemological question here is: how do you tell the difference between things which exist, and things which don’t exist?

Comment #222: Dunc  on  07/11  at  09:50 AM

Dunc,

We know certain things exist because we can, in one way or another, prove their existence.

If we cannot prove something’s existence, that suggests to me one of three things (1) it does not exist; (2) it exists, but our methods of proof lack the sophistication needed to prove its existence; (3) it exists, but its existence is not subject to proof.

I do not think that people who see the world in terms of only (1) and (2).  I think that is perfectly rational, and no one should be made to/shamed into believing that which they do not.  I happen to also believe three.  I am one of those “there is more to heaven and earth than is dreamt of by your philosophy, Horatio” type people.

The thing is, the very existence of (2) means that those of us who believe (3) have something in common with everyone else.  Math and Physics would not advance if the proof had to come before the theory.  Of course, (3) goes farther than that, and as my Atheist husband points out, (3) sort of ends the argument.

I do not care if you do not accept three.  I will not try to talk you into it.  But I happen to, and I will not be talked out of it.

Comment #223: Ismone  on  07/11  at  12:33 PM

Dunc:

OK, one question and one question only: how would one distinguish between a non-falsifiable god and a non-existent god?

You wouldn’t.

Personally, I prefer to only believe in things for which there is some kind of positive evidence. “You can’t prove it doesn’t exist” is not any kind of positive evidence.

Nobody ever said it was. What it is is an indicator of non-falsifiability. The whole point here is that non-falsifiable claims are neither true nor false, by definition. They’re logically empty, which is exactly why they’re so socially powerful.

The fundamental epistemological question here is: how do you tell the difference between things which exist, and things which don’t exist?

Considering that it’s logically impossible to prove that something doesn’t exist, this is a meaningless question. Or, at the very least, it misses the point. The big mistake made in asserting the simple “exists/doesn’t exist” dichotomy is that it dogmatically attempts to force the non-falsifiable — things whose existence is axiomatically undeterminable — into one category or the other, when in reality, they fit into neither.

Comment #224: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/11  at  12:47 PM

I discovered a story today that covers much of the same area mentioned above: the infuriating trend towards elevating (“protecting”) right-wing religious beliefs (and more specifically: the “right” to be bigoted). I discovered it in the London Metro newspaper, but here’s the link to NDTV’s coverage.

This story got me so enraged at people’s tendency to promote religious beliefs - even if they’re homophobic ones, as in this instance - above other beliefs. I just haven’t been able to stop thinking about this story all day.

Comment #225: Jayunderscorezero  on  07/11  at  12:53 PM

Ismone, your (3) is non-falsifiability in a nutshell. The problem comes when people (like Chet, most notably) assert that non-falsifiable claims are, in and of themselves, anything other than value-neutral.

Comment #226: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/11  at  01:08 PM

My point is that category 3 - things which “exist” are not even theoretically subject to proof - is completely indistinguishable from category 1 - things which do not exist. You’ve just declared a form of epistemology in which it is impossible to distinguish between things which exist and things which don’t exist, which is pretty much the fundamental task that any system of epistemology has to perform. That way lies solipsism.

Comment #227: Dunc  on  07/11  at  01:13 PM

Considering that it’s logically impossible to prove that something doesn’t exist

No, it’s not. There is no elephant sitting on my desk. There are no square circles. There are no flames leaping from my head.

Any system of epistemology that can’t tell you whether you’re on fire or not is no epistemology at all.

Comment #228: Dunc  on  07/11  at  01:20 PM

Dan,

I see that problem, and I know that they are not necessarily value-neutral.  I see that as less of a problem, because I see the value in abstraction and thinking beyond what we understand/are capable of understanding.  But I do not think that people who reject (3) are necessarily wrong. 

Dunc,

You haven’t proved that this is true, and you cannot.  For example, let’s say I set out to prove I have a desk.  I ask myself, self, how do I know there is a desk in front of me?  And I say, because I can see it.  And I reply, but how do you see?  I say, light reflects off the surface, is absorbed by things in my eyes, and a message is sent to my brain.  And I reply, but how do you know that is what happens?  And I say, very smart people have worked it out, and have pictures of cones and rods and neurons and blah blah blah.  And I reply, but what if it is all in your head?  (The desks, the textbooks, the people and their pictures.)  I cannot PROVE that it is not.

The only way we can PROVE anything is if we adhere to accepted standards of belief (this is good enough) and choose to trust our senses.  Which can play naughty little tricks on us, like psuedo-memories or extremely vivid dreams.  I agree that the desk is in front of me, and I also agree that I cannot prove/disprove God(s)/lifeforce to the same standards that I can prove/disprove desk.

Your accepted standards of belief fall along a certain axis, of observation, experimentation, testing, etc.  I accept all those things as well, but am also willing to accept that certain experiences, which some might describe as emotional, or biochemical, suggest something more than what empirical science can yet (or perhaps can ever) explain.  I am okay with rationality and extrarationality.  I realize the problems it raises.  I realize that others may not be comfortable with it, and at the end of the day, you may end up being right.  Who knows.

But your comment about epistemology merely repeats what I have been saying all along, the more to heaven and earth bit.  I know this falls outside of epistemology, and that does not bother me.  It also does not bother me that that the lack of an acceptable epistemology may be enough for you to reject the validity of my beliefs altogether.  More power to you.  The point is to make it clear to you that this does not change my beliefs.

Which brings me to category (2), the way-station.  Einstein knew relativity was true before experimental proof was possible.  We have come up with all sorts of crazy theories about quarks and chemicals and compounds before the experiments were or could be performed.  Heck, some theoretical physics may never be in any way verifiable.  Now, like I said, this is only a waystation to (3).  But I think it does show that people don’t have to be crazy to “know” things that are outside of their perception.  (Of course, I am also aware of the pile of discarded and discredited theories.)

So that’s where I’m coming from.

Comment #229: Ismone  on  07/11  at  01:47 PM

I am not denying this. But just because those regimes espoused atheism this has no bearing on anyone else. They do not define atheism and they do not represent my atheism, since as I pointed out before, atheism is not an ideology. I am not an atheist because i believe in dialectical materialism, I am an atheist because I don’t believe in gods.

A Christian or a young Japanese national could argue that his/her personal Christian beliefs or Japanese nationalism respectively is not reflected by the wrongdoings of past practitioners.  Whether the Christian argues that the racism, antisemitism, facilitating the rise of European fascism, or the aiding and abetting of Western Imperialism in non-Western societies does not reflect his/her own personal Christianity or whether the Japanese national who argues that the bloody murderous atrocities and war crimes that were part and parcel of Japan’s colonial legacy does not reflect his/her personal Japanese nationalism, the iniquities of their affiliations and beliefs means they must own up to both the good and bad of those affiliations not only to be honest with themselves and history, but also to better understand their beliefs and affiliations in order to learn and hopefully prevent future iniquities. 

By the same token, the same applies to the bloody murderous legacy of the avowed atheistic Marxist-Leninist and its derived regimes….it may not be reflective of atheism and the personal beliefs of the vast majority of atheists around the world…but that legacy is nonetheless an unfortunate part of atheism’s legacy due to what has transpired in the history of the 20th/21st centuries.

Comment #230: exholt  on  07/11  at  02:16 PM

Ismone—while it’s true that everything beyond solipsism is basically a convenient fiction, and I’m mostly sympathetic to people trusting the evidence of their ‘senses’ re: the life-force and divine epiphany, etc. (unless they spill some on my secular government), I have to take issue with your last paragraph there. Einstein ~knew about relativity before experimental proof was available because he could perform a logical/mathematical proof. As people here have enthusiastically demonstrated, God-things are not generally susceptible to such proofs and do not belong in the same category at all.

Comment #231: jericho  on  07/11  at  02:18 PM

Holly: Your posts at 8:38 and 8:41 were very explanatory. Thank you. =)

Comment #232: jericho  on  07/11  at  02:20 PM

Amanda,

The picture you used to accompany this post does not reflect the title.  Those monsters aren’t hideous….they’re quite adorable. 

Wouldn’t mind inviting those “hideous monsters” to hang with me and my pals over a meal and a beer.  smile

Comment #233: exholt  on  07/11  at  02:21 PM

Well, because a whole bunch of the religious people are actually on our side when it comes down to the difference between fundamentalist / dominionist beliefs and everyone else, and it IS a good idea to be nice to them and not tell them “you’re really an atheist, admit it!”

This.

Atheists need a way to convince religious folks who agree with us on principles that they should act with us, not with the fundies. How do we do this?
1) Raise awareness of atheism and atheists.
2) Be respectful so as not to alienate potential allies.
3) Focus the debate onto issues in this life which public policy can impact and away from the intangible beliefs.

Comment #234: pepito  on  07/11  at  02:23 PM

I was mainly poking fun at Chet’s extreme lack of awareness that anything can be legitimate outside the rational world.

Look, I’m sure some things could be legitimate outside the rational world.

But absent the rational tools of empirical study, we have no way to know about them. If you put down the tools of empirical study, you have absolutely no way to generate knowledge that is distinguishable from invention. The tools of empirical, evidence-based study are the only epistomological tool that can be distinguished from your imagination.

Comment #235: Chet  on  07/11  at  03:24 PM

Considering that it’s logically impossible to prove that something doesn’t exist, this is a meaningless question.

It may be logically impossible, but that’s a failing of logic, not of our reason.

I contend that if it was truly impossible to know whether or not something existed, you’d have no way to know when to go to the store for more beer. Since you do know when your fridge is out of beer - or when you’re on fire or not, as another colorful poster suggested - there must be ways to accurately discern when something doesn’t exist, logical or not.

Logic is actually a fairly limited tool for apprehending things about the universe. No wonder philosopher-types prefer it.

Comment #236: Chet  on  07/11  at  03:27 PM

Jericho,

I think math is mainly an abstraction.  So I don’t think mathematical proofs prove anything.

(I’m really not being snarky, I swear, I just got into some fascinating discussions with my physicist-father about how math is really a very useful and mostly right collective delusion/abstraction when I was young and I haven’t let go of them.  There is non-euclidian geometry.  Just as there is no unified field theory of physics, nor is there one of math.)

And yes, I do agree that people “knowing” things about science isn’t the same as “knowing” about God.  But I do think it is, like I said, a waystation, belief coming before proof.  (I’m not too terribly clever, but even I managed to come up with some clever theories that proved to be true based on later scientific evidence.)

Chet,

I don’t know if human cognition is as clean as you think it is.  Sometimes, subconsciously, we work things out when we don’t have all the information.  Jericho brought up life force/divine ephiphany.  People can feel and sometimes even observe those things with the same eyes/mind that tells us, hmm, no beer.  Now, considering the fact that Benadryl makes me have vivid hallucinogenic dreams and hormones can make me weepy, I realize that not all my brain tells me is the unfettered truth.  I recognize that what I identified, earlier in my life, as meaningful religious experience might be able to be explained away by emotional manipulation, altered physical states, or a brain that likes to fire off creatively when I’m awake.  (And no, I’m not claiming visions or anything like that.)  But to me it felt very real.  The realness of those feelings made me choose faith.  Now, I realize that many people may be religious unthinkingly (but there are probably unthinking atheists as well!), but some of us give it a lot of thought.

I personally think that those among the religious who acknowledge that religion is not bound by rationality are easier to deal with.  Because I think that, I am not a literalist, and I will never try to twist science to support my beliefs.

Comment #237: Ismone  on  07/11  at  04:23 PM

Opo,

If you’ll read my first comment that you responded to again (or perhaps there’s just a lack of reading comprehension on your part?) you’ll notice that I was responding to a comment, that I quoted in my comment, that said:
Also, very few people beyond radicals believe in Zeus/God/Sky-Fairy literally in the heavens.

So, maybe you want to check your own competency before you start slinging insults.  And nonsense.  Of course my experience is USA-centric.  That’s where I was born, grew up and have lived for the vast majority of my life.  That’s not a problem w/ my experience, that’s an integral part of my experience.  The problem w/ my USA-centric experience in relation to the conversation (I thought) we were having is that it’s anecdotal.  It’s anecdotal because it has a small and non-representative sampling of both the USA & the world.  Might I suggest that you understand the word before you start being an asshole to another person?  I mean, your entire first paragraph of your response makes it clear that the problem w/ my experience is anecdotal - something that I noted from the very beginning.

So your problem is that you don’t understand what anecdotal means.  And that you didn’t actually read what I was responding to (even though I quoted it in my response).  Your two problems are that you don’t understand the meaning of “anecdotal” and that you were unable to comprehend the sentence to which I was responding.  And that you thought I was responding to some statement that you made about “most religions”.  Your three problems are that you don’t know what “anecdotal” means, you were unable to comprehend the sentence to which I was responding and that, as a result of your second problem, you mistakenly thought I was responding to your statement about “most religions.”  And a fanatical devotion to the Pope.  Oh, damn.  Can I come in again?

Hopefully our exchanges in the future can be somewhat more respectful and civil.

Comment #238: Jake Squid  on  07/11  at  05:08 PM

Furthermore, if you believe in the principle of freedom of (and from) religion, then tolerance should be a two-way street. Of course, religious people should respect atheists (which is not happening in our society at large). Vice versa is also true. Do you want to sink to their level?

Holly,
Who is passing laws that restrict your freedom or deny your civil rights based on a rational atheistic worldview?
No one. Yet there are many many instances of liberties curtailed and civil rights denied based on religious thinking.
What’s wrong with expressing beleifs that challenge religious thinking?  Particularly in a safe forum such as this? 
I’ve seen a bunch of arguments about the value of a lie or fiction to help order society and ease pain and suffering; these are laudable goals.  The problem is that there is too much room for abuse. 
Who gets to make up the lie?
Who gets to choose when the lie is applied? 
Who gets to decide what my “own good” actually is?
I have no doubts that the majority of those commenting here are decent human beings who would construct just and benevolent religious structures that benefited all of us.  The problem is that not everyone is decent and just. 
The problem is that there are lies (to continue the analogy) that at this very momment causing death and pain and human misery. 
Now, there is little doubt in my mind that death and pain and misery will happen without gods and lies, but why allow that extra source to flourish.  That is really what you are doing.  You are willfully allowing one more tool of pain to exist in this world.
Reality is objective.  We all experience it. It should be the starting point for our systems of morals and ethics, not fiction, lies or magical thinking.

Comment #239: CWD  on  07/11  at  05:09 PM

I am hearing a lot of liberal people on this thread saying basically, “I don’t like the word ‘atheist’ because I hold what I consider to be profound religious beliefs, and I don’t want the term ‘atheist’ used to describe those beliefs, even though they are essentially abstractions that are not comparable to the Sky-Fairy ideas that are being used against gay people, women, and others.” As a result of this kind of attitude, the distinction in the public mind between “God Says So” types and more liberal believers is a little fuzzier than it needs to be and that fuzziness gives theocrats the cover they need to make more headway in the culture wars.

That’s why Chet’s categories (irrational belief in a transcendant physical entity = theist // lack of belief in a transcendant physical entity = atheist) are useful distinctions to make.  It seems that the only objection is to the word “atheist,” perhaps because it has a connotation that seems to deny the very real, very profound religious feelings held or experienced by people like Thealogian.

I feel like I’m reading comments for a different article; this quote seems to be the first one that really caught my attention.

One of the recurring themes in debates about the impoliteness of atheism is the insistence of good liberal religious folks that they are different from crazy-ass fundamentalists and so should be exempt from the atheists criticisms. Amanda talks about it in this very article.

But this misapprehends the atheist position. Sure, some atheists narrowly confine their arguments to the low-hanging fruit of American fundamentalism, but this is not necessarily universal, and their very arguments demand wider application. Nevertheless, I regularly shock non-Christian theists of all stripes when, as they complain about the ridiculous claims of Christian fundamentalists, I remind them that from my perspective, all these faith-claims are ridiculous. Atheism =/= non-Christian fundamentalist.

So if Thealogian is uncomfortable calling herself an atheist because she believes in a non-traditional, esoteric, mysterious, and as-yet-unexplained god, then of course she shouldn’t be pressured to call herself an atheist. But she’s wrong to assume she’s transcending some dichotomy of theism/atheism. Atheists need not disbelieve only in Yahweh, but can quite easily disbelieve in her process god as well—consistency of their arguments demands it, I think. I should say, I mention Thealogian by name only because she was the first to bring up the process-god style of arguments, not because of any special animosity; though as an atheist, I think this process-god argument and its permutations (God is “energy” god is “divine presence” God is ... etc.) are crocks of the same kind as the sky daddy arguments.

Going forward, it might be useful, though, to distinguish between atheism and materialism. Belief in ghosts is literally compatible with atheism and belief in materialism is compatible with the belief in physically present gods. People seem to be arguing as if they were interchangeable, causing much confusion.

Comment #240: Thom  on  07/11  at  05:14 PM

Hmph. Rereading that, it comes off as a bit smug, which I don’t intend. I know that I tend to get excited in these kinds of debates; the style comes from my trying to rein it in!

Comment #241: Thom  on  07/11  at  05:20 PM

I don’t know if human cognition is as clean as you think it is. 

I don’t think it’s all that clean, and I’m not saying that I or anybody else has it down perfectly.

But, look, there’s a huge difference between evidence-based reasoning, based on evidence that is accessible to other people; and listening to voices in your heads, prophetic dreams, or “intuition.” When I’m doing evidence-based reasoning, I produce knowledge that can be distinguished from my imagination. When you’re doing your faith-based thing, you’re not.

I mean, to deny that is to deny that there’s even such a thing as “wishful thinking.” We recognize that children get reality and wishful thinking confused, but aren’t adults supposed to be able to tell the difference?

Ultimately it just makes sense to be an atheist; it’s the position where you’re putting the least faith in conclusions from your imagination. All the logic and rhetoric is secondary to that. Being an atheist just makes more sense than being religious, if you’re at all interested in having accurate ideas about the universe.

I personally think that those among the religious who acknowledge that religion is not bound by rationality are easier to deal with.

I can’t get anyone to explain what I might be losing by confining myself to rationality, but it’s possible that I have a broader view of what is rational than the term is often used by the religious, where it apparently means “Spock-like estrangement from emotion, meaning, and enjoyment.” There’s nothing irrational about enjoying ice cream, for instance.

Comment #242: Chet  on  07/11  at  06:37 PM

Maybe it helps to unpack my categories if we take the word “God” out.

If you believe that the Force is an actual energy field that surrounds us and penetrates us, and can be used to levitate objects and shoot lightning, you’re not an atheist. (You’re a Jedi.)

If you believe that the Force is a metaphor for human community and engagement with existence, if you use the term to refer to the human spirit, or human goodness, or love or whatever, you’re an atheist. Maybe you still call yourself “Jedi”, but you’re an atheist, because you don’t propose a Force that is actually a detectable thing in the universe, it’s just a concept. (Maybe you call yourself a Jedi because you like lightsabers, or you find Han Solo unbelievably smug or unpleasant, but it doesn’t matter. You’re an atheist trying to hide it.)

If God is just a concept to you, just a metaphor (even if its a metaphor for something real, like love), you’re an atheist. I mean, “God” is a concept to me, too, and I’m an atheist. (My concept of God is “a character from mythology that a lot of people believe actually exists.”)

Comment #243: Chet  on  07/11  at  06:43 PM

Holly,
Who is passing laws that restrict your freedom or deny your civil rights based on a rational atheistic worldview?
No one. Yet there are many many instances of liberties curtailed and civil rights denied based on religious thinking.
What’s wrong with expressing beleifs that challenge religious thinking?  Particularly in a safe forum such as this?

Read the rest of my posts in this thread. I point out that yes, there are many lines that get crossed when religious thought is allowed to dictate things that it shouldn’t. And of course I don’t agree with that. But there is a HUGE difference between a reasoned critique of when non-rational, unfalsifiable ideas should stay out of things like politics, policy, formulation of civil rights, and “challenging religious thinking.”

There’s nothing inherently wrong with non-rational spiritual/religious thinking, in many spheres of life. If you believe there is, then you’re insisting that there’s no way to be religious or spiritual without doing wrong, which is a major flaw in the thinking of many gung-ho atheists these days. It’s intolerance of someone’s religious beliefs, and it’s really not going to fly, because it contradicts freedom of religion.

I happen to believe in freedom of religion, AND I believe it should include freedom from religion, since I’m an atheist. So I think that street should run two ways, even though it’s tilted heavily in favor of the religious right now. But the answer is not in blanket attacks on religion—it’s in making rational arguments as to why religion should not dictate things like science, government, policy-making, who gets to have rights, etc.

Going forward, it might be useful, though, to distinguish between atheism and materialism. Belief in ghosts is literally compatible with atheism and belief in materialism is compatible with the belief in physically present gods. People seem to be arguing as if they were interchangeable, causing much confusion.

Good point! A lot of this thread has been arguing between strict materialist viewpoints and views of atheists/deistic religious types that are a little more lenient about materiality.

I can’t get anyone to explain what I might be losing by confining myself to rationality

Well, you’re losing the wishful thinking, by your own description, along with any number of similar “irrational” psychological processes that really do have a point, and benefits, and may have even evolved in humans for a reason, even though they’re irrational. Also, even if you’re talking about the Force, you’re still trying to insist that people are atheists who don’t identify as atheists, which is still obnoxious. Ultimately, what church someone belongs to is not a matter of strict taxonomical categorization and semantic accuracy. It’s a matter of what church they say they belong to and what church they go to and do things in.

Comment #244: Holly  on  07/11  at  07:24 PM

Chet:

Considering that it’s logically impossible to prove that something doesn’t exist, this is a meaningless question.

It may be logically impossible, but that’s a failing of logic, not of our reason.

Once you abandon logic because it won’t let you assert the things you want to assert, all you’re left with is “because I said so.” And that isn’t proof of anything at all.

I contend that if it was truly impossible to know whether or not something existed, you’d have no way to know when to go to the store for more beer. Since you do know when your fridge is out of beer - or when you’re on fire or not, as another colorful poster suggested - there must be ways to accurately discern when something doesn’t exist, logical or not.

In purely pragmatic terms, yes, but that’s because we have long-standing assumptions about the way physical reality functions. We assume that if there are X beers and we drink X beers, then by definition there must not be any more beers left. That is the falsifiable claim in this situation — the blanket assumption we’ve made about physical cause and effect — not the direct claim of “there are no more beers in my refrigerator.” That’s a completely different animal entirely, logically speaking. The fact that we use the latter absolutist claim as a convenient shorthand for the former circumstantial claim is neither here nor there. That’s a matter of semantics, not epistemology.

In short, there’s a big difference between circumstantially assuming the non-existence of X and absolutely proving the non-existence of X. You’re right that in practical terms we wouldn’t be able to function without the former, but that in no way invalidates or avoids the latter.

Logic is actually a fairly limited tool for apprehending things about the universe.

Of course it is, and necessarily so. Logic is what prevents us (theoretically, anyway) from just making shit up as we go along all the time.

No wonder philosopher-types prefer it.

Philosopher-types aren’t uncomfortable with rejecting absolute truth in favor of provisional truth. Neither, for that matter, are scientists.

There’s nothing irrational about enjoying ice cream, for instance.

There’s nothing rational about it, either. Which is kinda the point, I think.

Comment #245: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/11  at  07:29 PM

There’s nothing inherently wrong with non-rational spiritual/religious thinking, in many spheres of life. If you believe there is, then you’re insisting that there’s no way to be religious or spiritual without doing wrong, which is a major flaw in the thinking of many gung-ho atheists these days. It’s intolerance of someone’s religious beliefs, and it’s really not going to fly, because it contradicts freedom of religion.

You say that there is nothing inherently wrong with non-rational spiritual/religious thinking in many spheres of life, but your argument for this is that, if anyone disagrees, that person is saying that being religious/spiritual is wrong.

To which I say, “Yes, exactly.” I don’t know that I mean precisely the same thing you do when you say “non-rational spiritual/religious thinking”—I know I don’t mean what Chet does—but I am very anti-religious and anti-spiritualism because I think they are bad things in themselves. We can argue whether or not I’m right or wrong about that, but just saying “Aha! You are saying that being religious is wrong!” doesn’t move the ball very much on its own.

I disagree that my position is contrary to freedom of religion, though. Just as a Christian might think that other religions are inherently wrong but nevertheless support a rule that allows people to choose whatever religion they like, I can think that religion and spirituality are pernicious while affirming the right to practice them. (Though, for what it’s worth, I think freedom of conscience is a much better right to have than freedom of religion, but that’s a different discussion).

Comment #246: Thom  on  07/11  at  07:48 PM

Once you abandon logic because it won’t let you assert the things you want to assert, all you’re left with is “because I said so.”

Not at all. There’s evidence, for instance. Logic is a game. Evidence is how we find things out about the universe.

In purely pragmatic terms, yes

That’s where you should stop. Pragmatic knowledge is the only kind of knowledge we can have. The kind of absolute certainty you give me the impression of demanding is a fiction; it’s the false promise of religion and the game of mathematics.

In short, there’s a big difference between circumstantially assuming the non-existence of X and absolutely proving the non-existence of X.

Starting with b beers, and drinking b beers, leaving 0 beers, is proving that none of your beers exist now. That’s not semantics, that’s common sense. That’s an evidence-based, rational way to approach the universe.

The logic, semantics-based way you’re approaching the beer in your fridge is what is irrational.

There’s nothing rational about it, either.

Of course it’s rational, if you enjoy ice cream. If you hate it, then yes, eating it for no good reason is irrational. “Rational” doesn’t mean “acting like Mr. Spock.” It means behaving in a way that makes sense given circumstances. It means using your reason and what can be reliably known to be true about the universe to make decisions, instead of deciding based on wishful thinking and nonsense.

You’ve just misapprehended what it means to be rational. It doesn’t mean to ignore emotion or physical enjoyment; it doesn’t mean to strip your life of everything but essentials.

It simply means, don’t do things that make no sense. Don’t believe things on the basis of no good evidence. Like the philosopher, though, you’ve substituted logic for sense.

Comment #247: Chet  on  07/11  at  07:51 PM

But there is a HUGE difference between a reasoned critique of when non-rational, unfalsifiable ideas should stay out of things like politics, policy, formulation of civil rights, and “challenging religious thinking.”

There’s nothing inherently wrong with non-rational spiritual/religious thinking, in many spheres of life. If you believe there is, then you’re insisting that there’s no way to be religious or spiritual without doing wrong, which is a major flaw in the thinking of many gung-ho atheists these days. It’s intolerance of someone’s religious beliefs, and it’s really not going to fly, because it contradicts freedom of religion.

I agree with you that there is nothing theoretically wrong with religious belief as long as its kept out of politics - the problem is it is not.  If you choose to belive in jesus, allah, thor, ganesh or ameratsu then go for it.  Its your life live it as you see fit.  But it seems that many believers won’t let me live my life as I see fit. Many believers posess religious beliefs strongly enough to feel that thiers is the only moral way; they not only can, but are morally bound to impose them on me or they are not good people by thier own definition.  So your theoretical argument runs into some severe functional challenges.  It is absolutely wrong to base any public policy on a religious belief.
IMO the answer is to question those beliefs.  I have absolutely no obligation to shut up about what I percieve as the dangers of religious beliefs.  I am not the government and so I am not bound by a constitutional ammendment to remain silent or repectful on the subject.
Loud atheists cause exactly the same sort of problems that loud sufferagettes did - they make entrenched religious structures and complacent believers uncomfortable. 
Same for out and proud gays and lesbians.
You need both the out and in your face and the quietly reasonable to work for change.  I don’t want to change peoples minds, I want to live in a secular society free from belief systems invented by bronze age semi-pastoralists.
I say talk from the roof tops.  Get it out in public.  Say outrageous stuff!  You don’t get what you want by being nice all of the time.
I can have fun and work some atrophied protion of my brain writting out my beliefs in an outrageous if semi-coherent fasion, but to my mind the most important part of this debate is the political question of how we choose to order our society.  Politics is a contact sport.  It will get rough.  Such is life. 
Cheers

Comment #248: CWD  on  07/11  at  08:01 PM

Another helpful distinction might be deduction and induction, two very different animals. I’d hesitate to even call induction logic, though it’s often treated as such. In any case, half the time people are talking about logic and rationality in this thread, they’re talking about induction, where “logic” relies on inferential leaps. The theists are, quite rightly, questioning the validity of these arguments the same way that Hume did—though jettisoning induction gets rid of gods as well as causation. Russell’s teapot is an example of a deductive argument against the existence of any gods.

Deduction, on the other hand, is very different; its primary usefulness is determining the formal validity of an argument—not whether ice cream is pleasurable, art is beautiful, or even that gods exist. It can tell you, though, whether your argument that god exists, is formally valid. The problem of evil is an example of a deductive argument against omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient gods.

Why care about formal validity? Isn’t that for loser mathematicians and irrelevant philosophers? Not really. It clarifies the sources of dispute and it keeps us from making arguments that don’t make sense. And here I don’t mean arguments that don’t make sense in the way that art or a sunset doesn’t make sense, but arguments where we can agree on all the premises but not be convinced of the conclusion. (I grant that all bachelors are unmarried, and I grant that this person is unmarried, but I am not convinced that that the person is a bachelor, nor should I be). Logic is not everything; not everything is logic, but logic used as logic rather than as a stick for hitting people goes a long way.

Comment #249: Thom  on  07/11  at  08:19 PM

That should read, “Russell’s teapot is an example of an inductive argument against the existence of any gods.”

Comment #250: Thom  on  07/11  at  08:21 PM

Chet, sorry, but you just don’t get to categorize other people as atheists.

They may not believe in something that you would call God.

But guess what!  Since you’re an atheist, you do not have any stake in what they call God.

“I can’t get anyone to explain what I might be losing by confining myself to rationality, but it’s possible that I have a broader view of what is rational than the term is often used by the religious, where it apparently means “Spock-like estrangement from emotion, meaning, and enjoyment.” There’s nothing irrational about enjoying ice cream, for instance. “

I never said you were losing anything.  I do not care about your beliefs.  I am explaining why your brilliant arguments do not matter to me.

And, I should have known better than to have this convo. with you, since when I did try to explain why religious people believe what they do, this was your response:

“But, look, there’s a huge difference between evidence-based reasoning, based on evidence that is accessible to other people; and listening to voices in your heads, prophetic dreams, or “intuition.” When I’m doing evidence-based reasoning, I produce knowledge that can be distinguished from my imagination. When you’re doing your faith-based thing, you’re not.”

Way to miss the fucking point.  I NEVER SAID THE TWO WERE ANYTHING ALIKE!  I never suggested that the former should somehow be given equal weight.  And of course you have to throw down with the voices in your head bullshit, or dreams.  Seriously, screw you.  That was NOT what I was talking about.

And even your evidence-based reasoning can be subject to flawed perception.  Unless you’re perfect.  Like, say, a god or something.

I’m done talking to you.

Comment #251: Ismone  on  07/11  at  08:27 PM

Well, you’re losing the wishful thinking, by your own description

I disagree.  Awareness that wishful thinking is wishful thinking and not reality is how I read Chet’s point.  It is quite possible to be rational and yet wish that I were married to natalie portman.  Being rational, though, means that I understand it just isn’t so. 

along with any number of similar “irrational” psychological processes that really do have a point, and benefits, and may have even evolved in humans for a reason, even though they’re irrational.

What kinds of things are you talking about? 

you’re still trying to insist that people are atheists who don’t identify as atheists, which is still obnoxious.

Chet is defining atheism a certain way (is “god” a supernatural thing that interacts with the world/is sentient/etc or a pointer to a concept like love/human goodness/interconnectedness), which I think is a useful distinction.  Using that definition many self-identified religious people would categorize as atheist, irrespective of their concept of atheism.  (S?)he has been quite clear about what that word means in his discussion, and as long as that is clear I don’t see how classifying someone into a group is obnoxious.  It is particularly useful in the context of the original post that discusses the lack of respect afforded atheist arguments.  Arguing that atheism, far from being a scary, pejorative concept, can be seen as a very common, “normal” idea has much value.

Yelling “you don’t believe in god” at a church is obnoxious, but I do not see Chet as doing such a thing, particularly given the clear description of his atheist/theist dichotomy.

Comment #252: Ted  on  07/11  at  09:00 PM

There’s nothing rational about [enjoying ice cream], either. Which is kinda the point, I think.

But there kind of is. We like ice cream primarily because it has sugar in it, and sugar triggers endorphin release. Endorphin release makes us happy, and we think “ice cream makes me happy.”

Comment #253: pepito  on  07/11  at  09:01 PM

Chet, sorry, but you just don’t get to categorize other people as atheists.

Sure I do, if that’s what they are.

You’re acting like it’s some kind of dirty name, or something. I find that insulting, as an atheist.

Way to miss the fucking point.  I NEVER SAID THE TWO WERE ANYTHING ALIKE!

But that’s the whole point of religion - they’re held to be exactly alike. It’s the position of religion that the information you get from prayer to God, or from meditation or what-have-you, is every bit as valid as the evidence-based information from science.

They’re not, but that’s the position of atheism, remember?

And of course you have to throw down with the voices in your head bullshit, or dreams.  Seriously, screw you.

WTF?

And even your evidence-based reasoning can be subject to flawed perception.

I never said that it wasn’t. But even with that caveat, it’s the best tool we have for apprehending accurate information about reality. It’s still better than making it up. But when you’re doing faith-based thinking, you’re just making it up as you go along. You get information that can’t be distinguished from imagination.

Comment #254: Chet  on  07/11  at  09:08 PM

Look, Amanda is way smarter than me, which is why she got at what I’ve getting at this whole time in the first post. The point of the “new atheism” is to reach out to people who don’t know they’re already atheists.

Well, where are all those people? They’re in church, singing along with the hymns, because they think that’s what they’re supposed to do to be a “good person.” Because they don’t even know that “atheist” is something it’s ok for you to be.

Comment #255: Chet  on  07/11  at  09:15 PM

Look, Amanda is way smarter than me, which is why she got at what I’ve getting at this whole time in the first post. The point of the “new atheism” is to reach out to people who don’t know they’re already atheists.

Well, where are all those people? They’re in church, singing along with the hymns, because they think that’s what they’re supposed to do to be a “good person.” Because they don’t even know that “atheist” is something it’s ok for you to be.

Yeah, but the way you and Amanda have described and define theistic beliefs conflates all religious/theistic beliefs to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic model…with specific focus on the Christian fundie kind common in the US bible belt and US political discourse.  This leaves out a whole wide swath of religious/theistic beliefs that do not fit the Christian fundie mode…..or in US political discourse.  This conflation not only oversimplifies and thus, makes many flawed assumptions of religious/theistic beliefs…especially those which do not fit the Christian fundie model…........but also severely limits what could have been a more broad nuanced conversation which accounts for the complexities and the religions/theistic beliefs which do not fit the Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions…..especially the Christian fundie model we’re all used to dealing with. 

In fact, this conflation is quite clear when you privilege the use of the word “church” as the term for a religious/theistic place of worship/observance.  First thing most people I know think of when they hear “church” is a Christian place of worship/observance.  Heck, two branches of the already privileged Abrahamic religious traditions do not refer to their places of worship/observance as “churches”.....Islam has Mosques, Judaism has Synagogues/Temples.  All I get when you privilege the word “church” is that when you are discussing religion and theistic belief systems, you are mainly talking about the Abrahamic religions…..and within that….mainly the fundie Christian sects dominant in the US bible belt and US political discourse.  In the process, you are leaving out other religious and theistic belief systems which do not conform to those constraining preconceptions.

Comment #256: exholt  on  07/12  at  02:09 AM

Yeah, but the way you and Amanda have described and define theistic beliefs conflates all religious/theistic beliefs to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic model…

No, it doesn’t. Something either exists, or it doesn’t. That’s not Western-style dualism; that’s a fundamental condition of reality.

If you believe god(s) exists, you’re a theist. If you believe that no gods exist, you’re an atheist. Again, not dualism, not Western cultural assumptions - but a fundamental fact about the universe. A necessity of human language.

This leaves out a whole wide swath of religious/theistic beliefs that do not fit the Christian fundie mode…..or in US political discourse.

Not at all. In fact hardly anything I’ve said is applicable only to fundamentalism; I’ve made relatively little mention of scriptural literalism, for instance. But the simple fact is that all theists believe in a god who exists; that’s what makes them theists.

In fact, this conflation is quite clear when you privilege the use of the word “church” as the term for a religious/theistic place of worship/observance.

That’s actually not what I’ve been using it to refer to, but thanks for playing. In point of fact, “church” is the most accurate term I know for what I’m trying to describe - not the place of worship, but the community of worship. A temple is just a place. A church is the people, too.

In the process, you are leaving out other religious and theistic belief systems which do not conform to those constraining preconceptions.

That’s really not at all true. The criticisms I’ve leveled, while pointed towards Christianity as a familiar point of reference, are just as applicable to any other religion.

Comment #257: Chet  on  07/12  at  02:55 AM

This thread has been really interesting to see.  It’s basically a train wreck demonstrating precisely the point Amanda was making in the original post:  liberal Christians, liberal non-Christian religious, and liberal spiritualists all joining in the game to avoid being labeled “atheist” even though many of them seem to admit that the god(s) they revere/pray to/honor/etc. aren’t actually supernatural entities capable of making measurable changes anywhere in the universe which fits one literal definition of the word atheist.  And those same liberals being more than happy to tar and feather the very same scientists who discovered evolution, the engineers who built the modern technological world, and the programmers who made possible this very forum and call all of these people morons who can’t distinguish between truth as in visible fact and Truth as in deeper non-literal meaning.

Shorter thread:  “Don’t you dare label us non-literal seeing-God-as-a-only-metaphor liberal Christians atheists, you filthy atheist whore!”

And I gotta wonder why the liberal religious folks in this forum don’t see their actions here as the exact same behavior we see in women who chose not to fight the system of patriarchy in their own personal lives.  Though I am very sympathetic to said women and would not dare lay blame on them for not fighting the system, I still do not believe they are right when they say that the cost (time and money) they put into the feminine performance is trivial.  Just as I do not believe that the liberal religious folks who think of the literal supernatural in the same way the atheists do are still somehow different from the category atheist.  They may be Christian atheists or Jewish atheists or spiritual atheists, but they are still far more like Amanda and Chet than Falwell and Robertson.

Clearly there is a huge social cost in adopting the label atheist—even when one ensures that the label atheist has been very narrowly defined to closely match the word atheist so that it doesn’t immediately conjure up Stalinesque atrocities.  It’s like attempts to reclaim words like queer and the n-word (except that those words are only labels and don’t actually have particular useful meanings), but here the liberal religious folks are on the wrong side:  they are actively working to prevent the “good atheists” from reclaiming the word atheist.  This boggles me.

Taking only the Christian subset, they are inherently accepting the conservative Christian definition of atheist (godless totalitarians) in order to keep the label off of them, yet many of them insist that their version(s) of Christianity (emergent, which ironically enough even the conservative Christians argue is fundamentally atheist) deserves the Christian label (including the social power attached to that label) without all of the dirty historical baggage associated with it.  Atheist always means asshole, but Christian is whatever you want it to be.  What a double standard!

Comment #258: KL  on  07/12  at  10:01 AM

“Don’t you dare label us non-literal seeing-God-as-a-only-metaphor liberal Christians atheists, you filthy atheist whore!”

Oddly enough, you, Amanda, Chet, and others who hold similar opinions on such religious/theistic folks are the first atheists I’ve met who actually argue this. 

Every other atheist I’ve met from the majority who happened to be militant on my undergrad campus to the co-workers I’ve had long after-work conversations with defined their atheism as the absence in the belief in any supernatural or spiritual being or force…whether in literal or metaphorical contexts….whether they are believed to be actively involved in our lives or not. 

In fact, I recalled a few of those atheists at my undergrad scornfully equating even theistic beliefs where the supernatural/spiritual deity was not involved in influencing the day-to-day processes of life and/or were a metaphor for some sort of force in this universe as not too different from having a mere imaginary friend(s) that only believers can see.  In the process, they called out Deists, Wiccans, Taoists, many New Age spiritualists, and many others. 

In their eyes, if one was a true atheist, one has no need to use a supernatural/spiritual being/force even as a metaphor…..a point that was echoed by the atheist co-workers with whom I’ve had long after-work conversations.  In fact, that was the only point where the views of the militant undergrad atheists and atheist co-workers I’ve conversed with coincided. 

If you believe in a supernatural force, even as a metaphor…..you were not an atheist by their definition….but an agnostic at best….and at worst, a theist who is just as deluded as those of the privileged Abrahamic religious traditions.

That is, of course, assuming that all those atheists at my undergrad, co-workers, and the working definitions of atheism present in most dictionaries and used by Professors teaching the study of religions and philosophies are all correct.

I’m not arguing with your definitions because “atheism” is a disgusting word…..never thought of it in such terms growing up in a religiously diverse city where most people didn’t really care what you believed provided you didn’t attempt to shove those beliefs down their throats.*  I just don’t agree with people who attempt to expand definitions of words and concepts to such an extent that they are rendered meaningless.

Comment #259: exholt  on  07/12  at  12:37 PM

KL:
Shorter thread:  “Don’t you dare label us non-literal seeing-God-as-a-only-metaphor liberal Christians atheists, you filthy atheist whore!”

You really don’t get what many of the thoughtful liberal religious people have been trying to argue at all.

Atheism is a very specific movement, particularly in Western Europe and the US, that has its own texts, heroes, history—it is not just a label that Chet gets to apply to everyone who doesn’t believe in a literal Sky-Daddy. The Atheist here don’t seem to own the real history, literature, and philosophical inheritance of the Atheist Movement—they don’t seem to recognize that their label isn’t just “against theism” but part of a movement of its own and that taking that label, one has to reconcile one’s own religious/a-religious identity with that baggage. I don’t want that baggage because my liberal religious life, I’m a Unitarian Universalist which includes a long-history of a Humanism/Atheism intergrated partnership, is MORE COMPLICATED than that label allow me to express. I would never call “atheist” a dirty word—its not and it accurately describes some people, particularly well read Atheists who have actually studied what that Tradition entails. Chet and his ilk have not made it a point to either study the Tradition of Atheism or world religions, so they’re insistence upon labeling all people who are not believers in “Literalism of the Book” (Xian Fundies, Muslim Fundies, Jewish Fundies) as Atheists is not only insulting and colonial in its ambitions, but simple minded and limiting. I have more respect for the real traditions of Atheism than Chet does because I have studied Atheistic philosophy, check out “The Atheist Manifesto.” I will not allow someone to label me.

Comment #260: Thealogian  on  07/12  at  12:46 PM

You really don’t get what many of the thoughtful liberal religious people have been trying to argue at all.

I’m not sure I really misunderstood, since you immediately follow with:

Atheism is a very specific movement, particularly in Western Europe and the US, that has its own texts, heroes, history—it is not just a label that Chet gets to apply to everyone who doesn’t believe in a literal Sky-Daddy.

...which to me is a deliberate effort to ensure that the word atheist (definition from multiple sources: “somebody who does not believe in God or deities”) is conflated with the label atheist (movement atheist a.k.a. the “godless totalitarian” I referenced before).  And by continuing that conflation, you never let the people who want the word atheist to mean only the simple definition (“somebody who does not believe in God or deities”) to use it that way.  I won’t argue that movement atheism never existed and doesn’t still exist, but I think Chet had been pretty clear later in the thread that he wasn’t talking about the movement surrounding the label but only the narrow definition of the word itself.

If Chet (and his ilk) has said instead, “hey all of you liberal religious folks who believe in a metaphorical god, it’s fair to say that you are all naturalists just like me”, would you have objected as strongly?  Or would you have said that naturalism too is a movement (which it is) with its own heroes and lore?  Is there any word that means “somebody who does not believe in literal gods or deities” period that you would be comfortable with?  Because I would happily use such a word to label various groups with it because there is a real distinction between metaphorical god folks and Sky God folks and that distinction requires a word to refer to it.  So which word would be the right one?  I would be very polite in its use, but nonetheless it should be as fair to use it as it would be to say a person is anatomically female regardless of their own internal gender identity.

What I don’t accept (and what this whole thread looks like to me) is liberal religious folks objecting to any such labeling just so that they can retain the religious privilege that the Sky God folks accrued through centuries of bloodshed.  That is no different than the denials of male privilege or white privilege we see every day in other places.  Going back to my example of emergent Christians:  it’s not really fair for them to retain the Christian label yet simultaneously refuse the atheist/naturalist/whatever label when they don’t believe the same critical parts of the Nicene Creed that atheists/naturalists/whatever don’t believe in.

Comment #261: KL  on  07/12  at  06:03 PM

Atheists will be a threat to religion as long as that religion is used as a power structure. Feminists are a threat to patriarchal societies for the exact same reason.

Therefore, atheists must be, at the very least, amoral because if morality exists without religion the need for religion is greatly diminished. And as far as spiritualists and the like, I’m sure in the extreme they would indeed be regarded as atheists by a theistic government since allegiance to it’s god would be expected.

Which is why the current trend to again politicize religion should be disturbing to everyone involved.

Comment #262: me in gold country  on  07/12  at  06:10 PM

What I don’t accept (and what this whole thread looks like to me) is liberal religious folks objecting to any such labeling just so that they can retain the religious privilege that the Sky God folks accrued through centuries of bloodshed.

This and every single other thread at Pandagon about atheism.

Comment #263: Thom  on  07/12  at  06:33 PM

And I gotta wonder why the liberal religious folks in this forum don’t see their actions here as the exact same behavior we see in women who chose not to fight the system of patriarchy in their own personal lives.

That argument doesn’t get brought up very often. Every discussion about atheism at Pandagon devolves into endless shouting about truth this and rationality that and you can’t prove god doesn’t exist and fuck you why can’t we all just get along until the thread drops off the front page. It’s depressing.

Chet, I completely agree with you on this subject and always have, but your head must be hurting like a bastard from beating it against that brick wall so many times.

Comment #264: junk science  on  07/12  at  09:58 PM

  ’d say that it probably is true, and additionally, it’s a useful way of looking at the phenomenology of those things.

  Like when the internet community of anorexic girls began to venerate a figure they called “Ana”, a metaphor for their own eating disorder. They began talking about it like it was a person, and then began to pray to it.

  Psychologists tried to treat them like they had a psychosis. They should have tried talking to them like they had a religion. Since, by any working definition, it was.

[Taken from previous atheism & religion thread]

Chet,

So you’re also saying that if someone is infatuated with their idealized image of a crush, personalize their inanimate possessions to the point they treat them like living persons, or worship any ideas, concepts, or theories…...they are all religious and thus theists??? So…are you saying anyone…even an avowed atheist automatically becomes a religious theist if s(he) develops an idealized crush on someone, personalizes his/her computers to the point s(he) treats them like fellow friends…or family members, or is passionately devoted to the field of thermodynamics??

Such an overbroadened definition of being a religious member/theist means that you’re in danger of defining atheists out of existence.  By the same token, how about all those religious/theists who believe in a theistic deity as a metaphor, yet are actually atheists according to your prior arguments because they do not believe in a living personality ridden deity whose supernatural powers can influence the universe??

Make up your mind, which of these do you subscribe to?!! Are we all atheists by your definition….or all religious theists????

Comment #265: exholt  on  07/13  at  06:09 PM

exholt:

So…are you saying anyone…even an avowed atheist automatically becomes a religious theist if s(he) develops an idealized crush on someone, personalizes his/her computers to the point s(he) treats them like fellow friends…or family members, or is passionately devoted to the field of thermodynamics??

Any time someone ascribes a conscious and powerful nature to something that is not actually conscious and powerful, there is some kind of delusion going on.  It may be stretching it to call it religious, but it’s an error of ascribing a being with powers where there is no being with powers, which describes the error embedded in theism to me. 

Passionate devotion to the field of thermodynamics would only count if it were delusional and the person involved felt that thermodynamics were a conscious and powerful being rather than a fact of this universe.  It is powerful, but not conscious.

Treating computers like fellow friends or family members would be ascribing a conscious nature to an unconscious object.  I don’t think this would be a theistic error unless you believed that friends and family members are gods, too.

The idealized crush would count in a minor way if you truly felt that the object of your crush had the power to make stars suddenly appear and birds fall down from the sky.

Anorexic girls praying to an imaginary figure which is treated as if it were real and had the power to make changes for them sounds like a religious act to me.  You wouldn’t even have to believe that the power could make changes for you, though in fact it seems to me that most religious people do believe that they’ll get something from their deity, either now or in some kind of afterlife.

Comment #266: oldfeminist  on  07/14  at  04:44 PM
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