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Next entry: Abitrary But Fun Saturday: Day Late, Dollar Short Rise To The Challenge Previous entry: Friday Genius Ten “Congrats To Our New Overlord Sotomayor” Edition

Let’s hope Sara’s completely wrong about this

I’ve been wandering around in a funk these past couple of days, and it’s hard to put my finger on it—-hormonal? the heat? lack of loving attention from a cat that has only just gotten over the compost tea/bath incident? struggling with losing a few pounds when it’s too hot to want to move my body?—-and now I’m feeling it lift somewhat.  Is it the Willie Nelson record I’m listening to?  Possibly.  But it might also be that Sara Robinson has finally addressed a yearning need in me to understand something about the increasingly aggressive, violent right wing presence at town hall events across the nation.  My usual reaction to most political trends is to at least have a general understanding of what’s going on, even if I don’t always feel compelled to blog about it.  But this entire situation has left me unnerved, because I just don’t get it.  I mean, I get it, but I didn’t quite get it.  There was something about it that felt different, harder to understand than most right wing nonsense.  It feels different than when the thugs shut down the Florida vote-counting, because there was an objective goal in sight. This time, it seems like it’s just an outpouring of anger.

Not that I’m not familiar with it, in the sense that I focus so much on women’s rights and am all too familiar with the fact that anti-choice protesters are a mob that’s often on the verge of violence, and occasionally and tragically they spill over into violence.  The turn that the right has taken seems to be in the direction that the anti-choicers took long ago: violently angry, projecting all their personal failures outwards, and paranoid.  Above all, they wandered off the farm a long time ago, and now in that particular subculture, it’s usually believed that abortion providers eat fetuses and that Planned Parenthood is part of a child sex ring.  The mainstreaming of this birther thing is definitely a tug in the crazy direction, but it took Sara’s piece to really get me where I could all this more clearly.  Warning: she’s writing about the 5 stages of fascism, and where the American right wing falls in the time line, so you need to read carefully before leaping to judgment. 

All through the Bush years, progressive right-wing watchers refused to call it “fascism” because, though we kept looking, we never saw clear signs of a deliberate, committed institutional partnership forming between America’s conservative elites and its emerging homegrown brownshirt horde. We caught tantalizing signs of brief flirtations—passing political alliances, money passing hands, far-right moonbat talking points flying out of the mouths of “mainstream” conservative leaders. But it was all circumstantial, and fairly transitory. The two sides kept a discreet distance from each other, at least in public. What went on behind closed doors, we could only guess. They certainly didn’t act like a married couple.

Now, the guessing game is over. We know beyond doubt that the Teabag movement was created out of whole cloth by astroturf groups like Dick Armey’s FreedomWorks and Tim Phillips’ Americans for Prosperity, with massive media help from FOX News. We see the Birther fracas—the kind of urban myth-making that should have never made it out of the pages of the National Enquirer—being openly ratified by Congressional Republicans. We’ve seen Armey’s own professionally-produced field manual that carefully instructs conservative goon squads in the fine art of disrupting the democratic governing process—and the film of public officials being terrorized and threatened to the point where some of them required armed escorts to leave the building. We’ve seen Republican House Minority Leader John Boehner applauding and promoting a video of the disruptions and looking forward to “a long, hot August for Democrats in Congress.”

This is the sign we were waiting for—the one that tells us that yes, kids: we are there now. America’s conservative elites have openly thrown in with the country’s legions of discontented far right thugs. They have explicitly deputized them and empowered them to act as their enforcement arm on America’s streets, sanctioning the physical harassment and intimidation of workers, liberals, and public officials who won’t do their political or economic bidding.

I think my general lack of concern over this was due to the fact that the majority of the public thinks this shit is stupid.  They don’t like the disruptions, and the more that the right acts like a bunch of thugs, the more they’re bound to turn off swing voters.  But of course, fascists see cheating as a perfectly acceptable way to power.  Cheating and violence.  And of course, the swing voter is quite likely to be sympathetic to fascist claims, once they’re getting power and able to come across as more respectable.

Sara brings up a couple of things that are of great concern.  She’s leaning heavily on the observations of historian Robert Paxton, and this is how he defines fascism:

Fascism is a system of political authority and social order intended to reinforce the unity, energy, and purity of communities in which liberal democracy stands accused of producing division and decline…...

a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

As much as it’s fun to make fun of birthers, their particular obsession is straight out of the Fascism 101 handbook.  Paxton argues that American fascism would almost surely be pious and anti-black.  In fact, the KKK really represented the American version of fascism, and they did in fact rise to political power as a political party in some places in the early 20th century before their popularity waned.  The general politics of the KKK are something to understand to really get what an American fascism would look like: they are anti-black, and super proud of their Christian piety.  They’re obsessed with “purity”, and the birther thing is exactly the sort of conspiracy theory that you’d think, if it wasn’t getting mainstreamed, would be something that only the KKK would buy into.  The ascendancy of Barack Obama as President, putting successful middle class black people into the public eye in a way unseen before in this country, is creating similar resentment structures such as Nazis had against Jews.  If I understand my history correctly, European Jews were hardly some great overclass, but in the feverish imagination of Nazi rhetoric, the very existence of some successful, professional Jews proved that they were.  What Jews actually were was an oppressed minority, as are black people in our society, but in the fever imaginations of conservatives, we’re under some great Obama-led takeover to relegate white people….to the position that was previously occupied by racial minorities. 

That’s what the birther crap is all about, and that it is a household word while thugs are breaking up town halls and making Democratic politicians fear for their own safety, I fear that some line may have been crossed.  And I fear that Sara may be right about what it is.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:16 PM • (151) Comments

He needs to stop his vacation ASAP and call Congress back in session. Obama pisses me off in this regard sometimes—he is way to passive with Congress. If the Republicans are going to use the recess to hijack Town Halls, end the recess, and make their asses sit in the Washington heat until a bill is on his desk!

Comment #1: Ben D.  on  08/07  at  07:15 PM

I was actually thinking about this myself on the way to work this morning. NPR was doing a story on it. I was wondering “When is it going to turn violent and what will happen then?” And then I caught myself. I didn’t say “what if” it turns violent. I was already resigned to the fact that it would. Scary.

Comment #2: Mark  on  08/07  at  07:20 PM

mark—don’t you think it already has turned violent?
i mean, aren’t the instances of terrorism that we have already seen (dr. tiller’s murder, for example) the beginning?

Comment #3: sophiefair  on  08/07  at  07:23 PM

Well, yeah. I was specifically referring to the healthcare townhalls, but I see you’re point & you’re right.

Comment #4: Mark  on  08/07  at  07:26 PM

It may be better in the long run if they turn violent quickly (not better for the victims, of course).  As it stands, the general public and particularly the media have bought into the Both Sides myth, and current Republican behavior is defended or excused as either “free speech” or behavior that “both sides” engage in.  Incontrovertible evidence of violence springing from these idiots would quickly put the lie to the defenses.  Most people would turn against them.  As it is, the propaganda is having it’s effect and it can’t be easily countered.  In some ways, confrontation now might clarify these issues and turn the public against this mob movement before it’s too late.

Or not.  Maybe a lot of people would get hurt and it wouldn’t matter.  Hopefully in the long run sanity will prevail.

Comment #5: John  on  08/07  at  07:27 PM

I’ve been wondering if in the past few decades we haven’t been witnessing the devolution of our culture and society.  Doesn’t it seem that people (as a whole) are getting dumber and less inquisitive?  Learned people are scoffed at and called “elite” like there’s something wrong with education.  People dismiss the health care systems of Europe and Canada without having witnessed them at work.  And more and more people seem to think (at least from the waves of violence we are currently witnessing) that guns are some kind of solution.  Makes me think that I should find a nice quiet bunker and wait out the storm.  Let the morons kill each other off (maybe the USA should be quarantined for it’s own good) and we’ll just fix what’s left.  Cause it doesn’t seem that common sense and rationalization work anymore with this mob-mentality and group think that seems to have taken over the stupid.

Comment #6: Amalink  on  08/07  at  07:29 PM

I’ve been wondering if in the past few decades we haven’t been witnessing the devolution of our culture and society.  Doesn’t it seem that people (as a whole) are getting dumber and less inquisitive?  Learned people are scoffed at and called “elite” like there’s something wrong with education.

American culture has gone through cycles like those before. The Age of Jackson comes to mind. Everything that’s old is new again, etc.

Comment #7: Ben D.  on  08/07  at  07:30 PM

How do you say the compost tea/bath incident without elaboration?  How distracting!

Comment #8: Crissa  on  08/07  at  07:48 PM

The angry minority is losing, and they can see it. The things they want to see happen in this country are rejected by a wide margin.

Election fraud and gerrymandering aren’t enough for them to hold power in the government anymore. They can’t form a coherent argument to convince anyone of their positions. Lies aren’t working either.

They can’t influence the national dialog. Violence and intimidation are all they have left.

Comment #9: encephalopath  on  08/07  at  08:00 PM

Be careful what you wish for (violence sooner), you might just get your wish:

“Breaking: wingnut tweets followers to bring guns to meetings

Based on the news that health care events are edging into violence, an anti-health care reform protester in New Mexico named Scott Oskay is calling on his hundreds of online followers to bring firearms to town halls, and to ‘badly hurt’ SEIU and ACORN counter protesters”

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/anti-health-care-reform-protester-encourages-physical-violence-use-of-firearms.php

It’s been noted that the threat of violent protests scared off the last round of Clinton healthcare hearings in 1994 (and they were orchestrated, too, of course).

Comment #10: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  08:00 PM

>As it stands, the general public and particularly the media have bought into the Both Sides myth

yeah maybe one of these causes the other, just throwing that out there

>Incontrovertible evidence of violence springing from these idiots would quickly put the lie to the defenses.

yes if the right wing gets just a little bit crazier the media will stop defending them, I sure haven’t been hearing this for the past decade or so

seriously, any second now the media will start doing decent reporting for no reason, you just wait

Comment #11: anonlololol  on  08/07  at  08:02 PM

Just finished a novel which included the Reichstag burning, the violent Nazi protests and all the rest that led to Fascism in Germany.

No, we’re not there yet, but Obama is already talking about the end of the Public Option ...sigh.

I wish there were a townhall meeting anywhere near my district, the threat of violence burns me so I’d show up just to show up those fuckers, but my Rep. is Waxman, for the good or ill.

Comment #12: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  08:07 PM

I suspect this (the slide to fascism, I mean) is one of those things that is really only clear in hindsight.  Jackboots and theocrats and moral guardians are, like vermin hiding in the walls, typically more numerous than they appear while scurrying away from the lights.  As such,  I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re already past the point of no return and just won’t realize it until the next generation is compiling history books.

Of course, I am invariably pessimistic…

Comment #13: schism  on  08/07  at  08:09 PM

The Democrats are as likely to cancel the Townhall meetings if violence does break out, if for no other reason than the right attitude not to endanger those who might attend.

So again, don’t wish for violence, it does not necessarily bode well for the Democrats, democracy, human lives, or healthcare reform.

Comment #14: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  08:10 PM

It seems it already has turned violent.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/07  at  08:14 PM

Then I hope the violence is widely recognized and the blame set squarely where it belongs.

Which I doubt.

We saw that when Roeder shot Tiller.  Even when one of these loons finally goes over the line, the narrative is always constructed as “lone nut(s)” rather than as part of an ideology and a movement promoting violence.

Comment #16: John  on  08/07  at  08:17 PM

In the novel I read set in Germany just before Nazi rule it was clear to some, if not many, that there was much to fear from Fascism. They just couldn’t predict, no one could, how much they’d have to fear.

Remember, the Nazis couldn’t even win a majority of votes in Germany in a number of elections, they took over by fiat.

I even have the distinction of anti-Nazi German relatives, or so the story goes.

One great aunt was married to a former WWI U-Boat commander, who refused to re-enlist and serve under the Nazis. It was only after a year in prison for his refusal, that he finally agreed to take up command of another U-Boat.

And, like 50% of those who served on U-Boats during WWII, he died during his service.

Meanwhile, the house my (American citizen) grandfather had bought for them in the 1920s, was destroyed during the (American) firebombing of Dresden.

Comment #17: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  08:18 PM

It’s about connecting the thugs to the people in power who cater to and enable them.  That we have a solid group of Americans that are practically begging for fascism isn’t a surprise, that Republicans show signs of willingness to give up any attachment to democracy is.  To make it scarier, in a sense, is that if you are not a nut, at this point being a Republican is very unappealing.  The internal checks on the more fascist elements are bowing down or giving in.  (Like McCain picking Palin, are Spector switching parties.)

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/07  at  08:38 PM

What Digby said:

“We’re in crazy August where sharks and swift boaters rule the airwaves. But I can’t say that these mobs aren’t going to have an effect. The zombie right is flexing its muscle and since the villagers still think these nuts are Real Americans—- or as Noonan calls them “normal people”—- they affect the media narrative and that affects public opinion. We’re already seeing it.”

Comment #19: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  08:39 PM

http://www.digbysblog.blogspot.com/

Comment #20: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  08:40 PM

This is exactly the kind of behavior that the fascist engaged in during the lead up to the take over of Italy.  Shouting down your opponent is a favored technique of right wing extremist groups dating back generations.  The Nazi Party of Germany, The Fascist in Italy and Spain during the period leading up to WWII engaged in just the kind of thing that the protesters at the town hall meetings on health care are doing.  Then they have the nerve to carry signs suggesting that Obama and Democratic representatives are like Hitler. 

I think the public option is dead.  The best thing we can hope for is to replace the bluedogs and DLC types next election and try again.  2010 is going to be a very important election.  We need to be gearing up already, getting people to run against the people who are destroying hope for health care reform. 

What Willie Nelson record are you listening to Amanda that is so depressing?

Comment #21: G Porgey  on  08/07  at  08:41 PM

This was the first thing I read this morning, and it basically ruined my day.  I try to tell myself that as much as I like Sara’s work, she’s of course going to be disposed to see encroaching fascism because hey, that’s what she does.  But the doomsayers have been right so often that I can’t shake this.

Anyway, I did go by Jim Cooper’s office today to ask if he was planning any public events, and the nice young man was extremely hesitant & evasive until I identified myself as a non-lunatic.  Nothing’s on the schedule, and while ideally he should have something going on, I’m kinda glad that he may not.  If he does, of course, I’m there.

Comment #22: latts  on  08/07  at  08:42 PM

I think it’s been obvious for some time what’s going on. What I’m afraid of is that there’s no way to stop it—we’ve got a solid 20% of this country that has chosen batshit insanity as a political philosophy. Hell, Charles Pierce’s Idiot America is all about the mentality involved—zealotry and intellectual laziness.

Comment #23: BrianX  on  08/07  at  08:43 PM

On I agree Amanda - it’s different.  I want to work with a progressive coalition in my area to counteract some of the mob scenes that are shutting down our local reps town halls.  And I spoke with them and I want to go,a nd then today I read (either digby or atrios i forget), that the teabaggers are threatening union members with “running into the second amendment” and some have twittered today to their fellow loons to go to the meetings armed.

And that stopped me in my tracks.  I’ve never backed down from the before, and I have had plenty of 1st hand experience with threats of physical violence from the gathering of eagles and rolling thunder during anti war demonstrations.

This feels different.  I do think someone is going to get shot at one of these things.  And I sit here and I wonder; do I really want to put myself in that kind of danger?

You know, I have health insurance.  These people are looking for blood and they have been ever since the election.  I lived through the big crazy during the Clinton years, and I didn’t think it could be worse than that.

But this is.  It’s because President Obama is black, we all know that.  And they want blood.

Comment #24: Lady Vader  on  08/07  at  08:47 PM

But the tide may be turning against them in news coverage:

“if you really want to know what non-political junkies are thinking and feeling, watch your local news, the evening news and the morning shows (Today, GMA etc). Not CNN, not MSNBC. Politics as sport is only for the masochistic. Most Americans aren’t into it.

Well I’m hear to report that the tide is turning against the teabaggers.

If you live on the in a non-eastern time zone you will WANT to watch what the most viewed evening news broadcast (NBC) reported tonight about the teabaggers (and other news).

Lead story: Lower job loss and Obama’s White House speech. Financial correspondent reported as well. Good stuff.

NEXT UP: Teabag story.

YES they actually suggested that its unclear whether the “outrage” is genuine or staged by Republican grpoups (yes they said republican groups)

YES they show pictures of teabaggers with posters of Obama painted with Hilter mustache.

YES the showed a progressive saying it seemed people were there to shout and not learn or ask questions.

YES they showed RUSH LIMBAUGH comparing Obama’s health care reform logo to the Nazi “Logo”. They talked about it for a second.

YES even Chuck Todd seemed his old slef when he mention ed afterward Gibbs saying the Nazi symbolism is too far.

YES they actually mentioned that perhaps this might backfire on teh GOP. YES they did. That’s actually they words they used.

I knew this would happen. I hate to say I told you so, but in this case, I’ll gladly say it. This thing is flaming out and once again the GOP may be “overplaying their hand” (as Brian Williams and Chuck Todd speculated)

The next story was about the “very popular cash for clunkers program” being approved in the Senate.

The next was about the killing of the head Taliban leader in Afghanistan.

THIS is what people who have normal lives saw tonight. 10 MILLION of them.

The tide is turning…

PS By the way, my local Tampa news broadcast was about the same. Only the Fox affiliate presented it as if it was legitimate. The NBC affiliate was less “kind”. I think decent Floridians broadcasters are embarrassed by these idiots.”

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/7/763456/-The-Tide-is-Turning:-NBC-Evening-News-Exposes-Teabaggers

Comment #25: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  08:59 PM

I was gonna say something about how this is a hell of an overreaction to a couple of old people having a slap fight, but, you know, Godwin and all…

Comment #26: MattMinus  on  08/07  at  09:01 PM

One thing I did yesterday was to call my Demoxcratic Congressman’s closest office and talk to his staff. I told them that I understand that it’s the luck of the draw that his recess meetings are in the other half of the state- we had him over this way during the spring.

Then I told them that I knew feelings were running high and protesters are being encouraged to go to the meetings and make a whole lot of noise. I said I knew in this kind of political climate being in favor of health care reform and holding public meetings to say so must be a little nerve-wracking.

“Please,” I said, “Tell him I said go get ‘em! We need this reform and we need him to bring it in. Tell him we’re out here.”

The staffer sounded a little choked up, thanked me and asked for my name and contact information, said she’d personally see to it he got my message. It’s a little thing, but it was something I could do, you know?

Comment #27: bbrugger  on  08/07  at  09:02 PM

A slap fight? A slap fight in which hundreds are being urged to go armed and be violent?

I have no idea what you’re talking about, or the point you’re trying to make, but I suspect you’re a troll (at best.)

Comment #28: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  09:12 PM

Judy that’s encouraging.  I hope you are right.

Comment #29: Lady Vader  on  08/07  at  09:19 PM

Shit… Jonathan Alter basically just said the same thing on Olbermann’s show—he simplified it & was more cautious, but he sketched out the descent into political violence. 

Glad it’s getting out there in the MSM—I also read the DKos diary—but the fact that things are ugly enough for the media to notice is worrisome in itself.

Comment #30: latts  on  08/07  at  09:24 PM

Here’s a nice article by about the current unrest Frank Schaeffer. He sees it as a scorched earth campaign not by people who are about to take over, but by people who know they’ve already lost (even if they haven’t accepted it yet).

Personally, I hope this little tantrum continues (without any one getting killed) until it becomes unavoidably crystal fucking clear to every local journalist and casual 5 o’clock news watcher that these people are way out of the mainstream and need to be kept as far as possible from positions of responsibility.

We also need to get our asses to as many of these events as possible. You can’t be intimidated by the talk about guns- it’s just what these people do- they live for freaking people out with that shit. Fuck them. They can’t get away with bullying all decent people out of the conversation.

Oh, and here’s another thing from Kos to cheer you up:

Republican Party approval rating among Latinos

———————April 27-30——August 3-6

Favorable———14——————3
Unfavorable—-73——————86
No Opinion——-13—————-11

Comment #31: tb  on  08/07  at  09:27 PM

@judybrowni -

Who’s urging hundreds to go armed? Some guy on twitter? Call the internet police to deal with this aggravated e-peen in the 1st degree!

Comment #32: MattMinus  on  08/07  at  09:31 PM

Godwin’s rule doesn’t apply when people are actually behaving like fascists.

Comment #33: jamie d  on  08/07  at  09:34 PM

tb FTW!

Comment #34: Ben D.  on  08/07  at  09:35 PM

In fact, I’m going to drive myself into Eric Cantor’s district and attend one of his town halls, and ask him to denounce the Fascist thuggery his party is engaging in.

Comment #35: Ben D.  on  08/07  at  09:36 PM

My girlfriend’s mother is actually “involved” in these tea party protests. No idea what she thinks of this mess, but she’s been planning to drive up to Austin to hear Perry speak and do more protesting. We’re both pretty horrified, but there’s something about this “activism” that is appealing to people. And it has to be that he’s black.

Comment #36: Seebach  on  08/07  at  09:37 PM

If I understand my history correctly, European Jews were hardly some great overclass..{Amanda}

Far from it, of course. Ironically, in Germany itself, there were relatively few Jews, and they were overwhelmingly quite thoroughly assimilated to German culture—to the point that later, in the Nazi regime, the Nazis had to expend quite a bit of effort determining who was actually “Jewish,” and their findings took a number of people quite by surprise. During WWI, German Jews (the ones who actually realized they were Jewish, that is) served their war effort with distinction. We know this in part because anti-Semites in the German high command conducted a survey of their war performance and to their surprise and dismay found they were among the best. Not to worry though—the high command spun it by leaking that the results of the survey couldn’t be released “because it would tend to undermine morale.” Indeed, it would have insofar as they wanted to rely on bigots. And of course the dark implication was the dead opposite of the truth—which served them and their later heirs quite well, as they saw it. Well, until mid-1945 anyway…

How do you say the compost tea/bath incident without elaboration?  How distracting!
Crissa on 08/07 at 02:48 PM

I think we have here a Noodle Incident {WARNING! TV TROPES LINK! TV TROPES WILL RUIN YOUR LIFE! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!}. Except we can sort of figure it out just from this brief description.

I think there is one ingredient lacking from the classic formula for an actual fascist takeover in the current situation: fascism is essentially a last-ditch response of a capitalist society that is facing the threat of imminent left-wing revolution. In Italy, in Germany, in Spain, and even in the numerous right-wing regimes in the Third World over the past century that our US tax dollars have done so much to foster and prop up, there was always an actual, credible, strong and strongly leftist movement that was indeed liable to take over pretty soon under Business-As-Usual governments.

This is something we are lacking—sadly lacking in my opinion, though its presence would indeed mean that right now we would be in grave peril of a fascist coup—in this country.

I don’t think the subjective belief on the part of our “cuckoo for Coco-Puffs” (as Rachel Maddow describes them) rightists that the average Democrat is indeed scarcely distinguishable from Stalin or Pol Pot can substitute. For a fascist takeover to happen, one needs an army of goons (who can be lower-class but often actually come from the middle classes)—well, check, we’ve got that. One needs the acquiescence, indeed participation, of the upper classes and a consensus among them that fascism would on the whole be good for them. Dunno about that—certainly there are plenty of quite rich powerful people already clearly on board. But even if I were sure that the solid majority of really powerful people would nix such a plot today, I have no confidence they wouldn’t generally turn on a dime tomorrow. So tentatively—check.

But one also needs for the middle classes to be convinced that they are indeed facing the real prospect of a left-wing takeover—that’s the missing element, because there is no such thing happening.

I suspect a better analogy for our situation today might be France in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. They had some heavy polarization in their politics, including some rightists who were pretty much indistinguishable from fascists. But there never was an actually fascist regime in France except for the Vichy puppet state, under actual Nazi occupation and rule. And there was also never, after the defeat of the Paris Commune, an organized Left capable of taking and holding power (though the 5th Republic shook in its boots in 1968—but that was ended quickly, involving among other things Charles DeGaulle’s resignation from the Presidency). Nothing, anyway, as strong and close to actual takeover as Germany’s various leftists (split between Social Democrats and Communists—had they ever united, I think they would have been unstoppable—hence Hitler’s path to power) or Italy’s Bolshevik-inspired grassroots communes (in the immediate aftermath of the end of WWI), which were suppressed by death squads that formed the core of the Fascists. Or in Spain, of course, Franco was actually the rebel, against the legitimate Republic which had voted socialism into power.

So if we do have a fascist coup at this particular moment, it would be more like Franco’s than Hitler’s.

Comment #37: Mark Foxwell  on  08/07  at  09:42 PM

In fact, I’m going to drive myself into Eric Cantor’s district and attend one of his town halls, and ask him to denounce the Fascist thuggery his party is engaging in.

That’s just the thing. The Republicans aren’t having town halls.

Comment #38: Seebach  on  08/07  at  09:43 PM

Shit, you’re right. Cantor isn’t even in the country—he’s in Israel.

You know, being Jewish, you think he’d be smart enough to realize that the mobs would just as soon turn on his ass.

Comment #39: Ben D.  on  08/07  at  09:48 PM

My girlfriend’s mother is actually “involved” in these tea party protests. No idea what she thinks of this mess, but she’s been planning to drive up to Austin to hear Perry speak and do more protesting. We’re both pretty horrified, but there’s something about this “activism” that is appealing to people. And it has to be that he’s black.

It’s bonding over racism and it’s scary shit.  I remember learning in high school that there were gradual stages to the expression of racism, starting with people testing the water by telling jokes or making a comment and seeing who agrees with you and ending with the mob burning crosses and lynching.  With the teabag mob they are damn close to the cross burning stage.

Comment #40: DonnaDiva  on  08/07  at  09:58 PM

This is the IRL equivalent of Anonymous DDoSing and crapflooding a site into oblivion.

Comment #41: Wareq  on  08/07  at  10:02 PM

It’s bonding over racism and it’s scary shit.

And it’s not like I’m just jumping to the racism conclusion. This is a woman who gave money to the RNC and had a picture of Bush on her refrigerator. But she never got out and marched before.

It has to take something special to just decide to go out and protest. For me it was Bush deciding Iraq needed to be invaded to stop Gog and Magog from causing the Apocalypse. Different priorities, I guess.

Comment #42: Seebach  on  08/07  at  10:03 PM

People are not Nazi’s because they disagree with you. Showing up at a townhall meeting to be disruptive and obnoxious is not a crime.  It’s rude, and I’m not sure about the optics, but there’s nothing about it that’s beyond the pale thus far. Whats the real complaint, they’re disrupting our sideshow with their sideshow.

The response here reminds me of the way the conservatives turn one rock throwing anarchist at an anti-war rally into “ZOMGs! Invading demoncrap footsoldiers.”

In fact, I guarantee that there’s a parallel thread to this on the Free Republic, detailing how the nefarious, liberal fascist ACORN movement tracks directly with the development of nazism. We’ve passed the tipping point when the Obamanation loosed his SEIU stormtroopers on the gentle, Gandhi-like teabaggers.

Comment #43: MattMinus  on  08/07  at  10:04 PM

I think where the neofascists are making their mistake is timing. Fascists were gathering strength in europe for a long time, but the industrialists put them in actual power mostly after the more-or-less-democratic governments had been thoroughly discredited. The hyperinflation in Germany was 1922, and things never really got better after that. (One of the formative stories of my father’s life was of being a little boy sent to the local bakery to buy rolls, with 5 million marks in his pocket, and coming home in tears with nothing because rolls had gone up to 6 million that day…)

Instead, the neofascists are working under a scenario where all of them have spent the past 8 years becoming discredited, against an administration that’s still on the positive side of the approval ratings and has shown an ability to get things done. So I’m thinking (hoping) that this is more like 1923 than 1932.

Comment #44: paul  on  08/07  at  10:11 PM

I called all three reps and both senators’ offices today to encourage them to keep the fight. The staffer who answered for my rep listened as I told the story of my husband’s recent hospitalization and my terror that we’ll be dropped from insurance in the near future because he had the gall to be diagnosed with a life-long, chronic condition at 31. I talked about the bills, and about how frightening they are, about how after we pay off my husband’s hospital stay, we’ll most likely be reduced to a financial square one, even though his insurance is supposed to be “good,” they’re denying things like how long he was kept in the hospital, and whether he really needed to stay in intensive care.

It was a half-hour long conversation about how much we as a country need reform at the very least, but how I was fairly certain that once we had single-payer insurance, those same teabaggers would be screaming blue murder if a future government tried to take it away. I was crying out of frustration by the end of it, because it’s just been hell, and I would give more tax money every year if it meant other people didn’t have to face this situation.

She took all of my contact information and said that the Congress critter might want to follow-up later. She thanked me for calling, and said it was nice to hear from a “sane” person.

I figured it was more productive than getting into a screaming match with a birthbagger, and maybe it will be, in the long run.

Comment #45: Ticky  on  08/07  at  10:15 PM

“Nothing beyond the pale so far”—a congress person lynched in effigy? Mob rule shutting down townhalls, one of the organizers urging hundreds of his followers to go armed and prepare to be violent?

Yes, and he urged it over the internet, so according to the poo poohing troll it don’t count.

Not like those websites with the abortion doctors presented as targets presaged the assassination of abortion doctors, or anything.

And according to this troll, lies about ACORN and Democrats as Nazis killing granny are the equivalent of factual accounts of mob rule and hundreds being urged to bring guns and muscle to swing the debate toward violence.

Please, please go back to some wingnut site and poo pooh their myths and dangerous lies if you really want to be constructive.

But I doubt you do.

Comment #46: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  10:30 PM

Mark Levin, on Hannity, just now said “The President is at war with the American people,” and that if there is any violence at the town halls or if anyone gets hurt, the White House bears responsibility for that.

So we have that cleared up ahead of time. Just so you know.

Comment #47: Seebach  on  08/07  at  10:40 PM

judybrowni:

Come back to The Nation. KVH and Nichols miss you!

Comment #48: ayutokamina  on  08/07  at  10:41 PM

MattMinus, try to fail harder. I’m sure you can do it. Make it a goal!

Comment #49: Auguste  on  08/07  at  10:43 PM

This is a case of people who are scared getting to a point where they’re willing to believe anything.  Reason has left their minds, since fear is all they have.  Part of it is that the bill is still largely a mystery, which is a pity since lies flourish in ignorant surroundings.  But the worst part is that the liars are playing on every fear tactic in the book.  It’s shameful what is happening, and no one is telling them to shut up and learn a fact before spouting off about something they don’t understand.  Of course, the irony of Rush, Beck, WienerRockstar, or Lou Dobbs doing that would cause even those guys to experience shame.

Comment #50: 3letterjon  on  08/07  at  11:01 PM

Can we enjoy our moral superiority for a couple of days before we squander it?

One party is busing mobs of people around using corporate cash. These mobs then shut down public town hall forums by being disruptive. They are also telling people that our government intends to euthanize old people, the disabled, and children. Saying that taxpayers are the Jews for Obama’s ovens. Suggesting they come armed in order to fight off “union thugs”.

We are suggesting that this behavior is similar to some right-wing fascist parties, in that Republican elites are now supporting physical intimidation as a tactic.

Thus, we are morally equal.

Comment #51: Seebach  on  08/07  at  11:08 PM

In Seattle, we have the pleasure of political cartoonist David Horsey. Enjoy his take today on this “I want my country back!” nonsense and the “Obama’s not an American!” crap.  Don’t read the comments, though; even in the People’s Republic of Seattle (we have a statue of Lenin), the trolls like to make themselves heard.

Comment #52: NobleExperiments  on  08/07  at  11:18 PM

SEIU is a target of the crazies—and (hint, hint) they’ve got guns

SEIU Gets Threatening Phone Call: “You’re Gonna Come Up Against The Second Amendment”

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/labor/seiu-gets-threatening-phone-call-youre-gonna-come-up-against-the-second-amendment/

A fistfight at a Tampa Democrat Townhall yesterday, provoked by the Republican-lobbyist-nutball group sent there to disrupt the discussion

Hundreds of the fanatics told to bring guns and “hurt” ACORN or SEIU members at townhalls.

If noting that those smack of fascist tactics is the moral equivalent of fascist tactics, then it’s opposite day, today.

Comment #53: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  11:21 PM

Ah don’t worry about Seattle, truth is, wacko wingnut trolls deliberately seek out what they believe might be a “liberal” website, blog, or publication to infect the threads.

The Nation’s threads are infected by wingnuts, for instance, who drive the rational away with their slurs, lies and ALL CAPS! paranoid rants.

You and I and the lampost know no wingnut ever bought a copy of the The Nation, but they think they’re doing the dark lord’s business to counteract facts and rationality.

Comment #54: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  11:28 PM

reminder that not a single one of these people will be tazed/hit with sticks/tear gassed by the cops

Comment #55: anonlololol  on  08/07  at  11:41 PM

As it turns out, there may be more Republicans invading the town halls of Democratic representatives to disrupt discussions on health care, than those Republican citizens who attend the town halls of Republican representatives, such as the video below of a New Jersey town hall.

Including the Republican who sponsored it (Leonard Lance) who declined to show up to his own meeting:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/7/763243/-All-Heckfire-Breaks-Out-at-Republican-Town-Hall-Meeting

Comment #56: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  11:44 PM

But don’t worry, that Republican rep town hall, although sparsely attended, was fully attended by wingnut conspiracy theorists. (What else?)

Comment #57: judybrowni  on  08/07  at  11:51 PM

What Mark Foxwell says above: the key element missing from Sara’s scenario is a left that economic elites are scared of. Economic elites are almost as fond of Democrats as they are of Republicans….and in fact tend to donate more generously to Dems than to GOPers when the Dems are controlling Congress and the White House.  The (potentially proto-fascist) GOP base might think that Obama and the Democrats are socialists, but Wall Street knows better.  And absent elite support for the thugs in the street, under the Paxton understanding of fascism (that’s the basis of Sara’s post), fascism doesn’t win.

A few other notes about all this:

First, we are not nearly in the kind of economic crisis that Weimar German or interwar Italy faced (nor for that matter that Depression-era America faced).  We could get there, of course. But we’re not nearly there yet.

Second, in the past when American elites have felt threatened by left-wing mass movements—e.g. the ‘30s and the ‘60s—they responded at least as much with (by American standards) significant reform as they did with repression. That is, they didn’t choose the fascist option.  In the 1960s, as social unrest seemed to threaten this country, the closest thing to fascist options—George Wallace and Barry Goldwater (whether or not this is fair to Goldwater, the press frequently played up connections between him and the far, far right)—were widely shunned by American elites. That doesn’t mean that our elites would make the same choice again. But at least in the U.S., when there is a threatening left, the results are better elite behavior not worse….but perhaps because the left isn’t all that threatening compared to, say, interwar Italy or Germany.  U.S. elites in the ‘30s and the ‘60s believed they could restore order with (relatively) minor repairs to American capitalism. 

Finally, though I wouldn’t want to put too much stock in this, I think it’s fair to say that US democratic institutions have proven more durable than early 20C German or Italian democratic institutions.

Comment #58: Ben Alpers  on  08/07  at  11:52 PM

You know, being Jewish, you think [Eric Cantor would] be smart enough to realize that the mobs would just as soon turn on his ass.

First, it’s far too easy to overestimate Eric Cantor’s intelligence.

Second, however, not all fascist movements are antisemitic. Fascist Italy only adopted antisemitic policies after extraordinary pressure from their German allies.  In this country, the Christian right is actually quite philosemitic, though largely for creepy, premillenialist prophecy-related reasons.

Comment #59: Ben Alpers  on  08/07  at  11:56 PM

I don’t think anyone is arguing that Joe the Plumber is going to be dictator king. I just think we’re arguing that they’re going to kill a lot of people.

Comment #60: Seebach  on  08/07  at  11:57 PM

Second, however, not all fascist movements are antisemitic.

And just like the women who make careers as antifeminists or the black intellectuals whose success is based on bashing affirmative action, some of the jews who align themselves with fundamentally antisemite right-wingers believe that they are exempt from the general hatred. (My grandfather was one of those assimilated jews in germany. Joined the military, helped put down the socialists, supported all the right causes, didn’t figure out until late 1938 that none of that would help him…)

Comment #61: paul  on  08/08  at  12:09 AM

That’s just the thing. The Republicans aren’t having town halls.

Actually, John Shadegg and Jeff Flake are having them in AZ.  I’m going to Shadegg’s tomorrow morning.  It’ll be interesting to see how the teabaggers act at a Republican Congressman’s townhall.

Comment #62: DonnaDiva  on  08/08  at  12:15 AM

Finally, though I wouldn’t want to put too much stock in this, I think it’s fair to say that US democratic institutions have proven more durable than early 20C German or Italian democratic institutions.

Italy was officially a monarchy until 1946.  Germany was a monarchy until 1918, which meant you still had a lot of powerful people who remembered the good ol’ days of aristocracy.  The monarchy was voted out in Spain in 1931, which was one of the triggers of the Spanish Civil War.  The monarchy didn’t come back until Franco died and basically left it to them in his will.

In fact, I think that’s what missing in this attempt at revolution:  an actual aristocracy.  The top 1% have been working on it, but they still haven’t quite managed to make it official.  If you don’t have a mass of people who are willing to believe that they’re naturally inferior to the aristocracy and therefore they should help preserve it, you don’t have much of a revolution.

As always happens with Republicans, I think they overplayed their hand.  Unfortunately, we’ll probably see a few deaths before Congress goes back into session.  As with Tim McVeigh’s dashed hopes of triggering a race war, they’ll have the opposite effect of what the teabaggers hope, but that won’t be much consolation to the people who are dead.

Comment #63: Mnemosyne  on  08/08  at  12:18 AM

Sure they have the corporate and political collusion to incite popular violence. And yes, they have the inch-deep political convictions masking a deep-seated nihilism. Hell, they’ve even got a whole bushel of twisted-ass freaks hypocritically living a life of debauchery while preaching obtuse morality. But the plain fact is, without the snazzy uniforms it’s just going too dang far to call them fascists.

I joined a crypto-fascist quasi-movement and all I got was this lousy t-shirt?

Comment #64: Sarcastro  on  08/08  at  12:19 AM

Matt, if you read the post, mine or Sara’s, you’d realize the concern is not that there’s thugs—-that’s surprising—-but that they’re being indulged and encouraged by the conservative elite.

But your “concern” is noted.

Comment #65: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/08  at  12:22 AM

I have the same fears, and it’s depressing me too…. Their ignorance and hatred have reached a boiling point…

Comment #66: Woodrowfan  on  08/08  at  12:23 AM

Can we enjoy our moral superiority for a couple of days before we squander it?

You’ve already outed yourself as a Republican, AJones.  We know what you’re doing.  That you feel the need to conceal and lie tells me all we need to know about he “concerns” expressed.  If you actually thought we were overreacting, you’d encourage us.  Guess we’re onto the right target, that you’re falling to the standard issue “just lie about it” Republican position.

Comment #67: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/08  at  12:25 AM

Well, on the bright side, even though members of the military are generally relatively conservative, they’re less racist on average than the average American.  So the military’s not going to join a Fascist coup.

But they’re half a world away.

Fuck.

Comment #68: Maureen  on  08/08  at  12:36 AM

What Mnemosyne said.

Instead of an aristocracy the other side has the Confederate flag. It’s not all that convincing.

Comment #69: bad Jim  on  08/08  at  12:42 AM

I think your average brownshirt true believer suffers from a degree of small-town disconnect. The people controlling the message know that these are people who see organized protests in countries like Iran and want to “feel involved like that.” When you live in a small town you tend to get so desperate for validation of your importance that you tend to inflate your worth a bit, and these people in South Bumblefuck, Florida are hoping that their protest will be the “righteous outrage that sparks the nationwide revolution,” just like that dead Nada chick did.

Comment #70: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/08  at  12:43 AM

See, that’s the thing, the side with the guns doesn’t get the martyrdom points.  (See also: Boston Massacre)

Comment #71: Maureen  on  08/08  at  12:47 AM

As per usual, Rachel Maddow has this issue covered like a rug.

Rachel’s first guest was Frank Schaeffer, former right wing evangelical and the author of Crazy for God.

Partial transcript:


“Rachel: Do you think that calling the President a “nazi”...calling the President “Hilter”...is an implicit call for politically motivated violence?

Schaeffer: Yes I do. In fact this rings a big bell with me because my dad who is a right wing evangelical leader wrote a book called “A Christian Manifesto”...and in that book he compared anybody who was pro-abortion to the nazi Germans; and he said that using violence or force to overthrow nazi Germany would have been appropriate for Christians including the assassination of Hitler. He compared the Supreme Court’s actions on abortion to that. And that has been a note that has been following the right wing movement that my father and I helped start…

So what’s being said here is really two messages: there’s the message to the predominatly white, middle-aged crowds of people screaming at these meetings trying to shut them down; but there’s also a coded message to what I would call the “looney tunes” - the fruitloops on the side - that’s really like playing Russian roulette. You put a cartridge in the chamber and you spin and once in a while it goes off, and we saw that with Dr. Tiller, we’ve seen it happen numerous times in this country with the violence against political leaders whether it’s Martin Luther King or whoever it might be… we have a history of being a well-armed violent country. And so, really, I think that these calls are incredibly irresponsible.

The good news is is that it shows a desparation. The far right knows they’ve lost. They’ve lost the hearts and minds of most American people… But they also know that they have a large group of people who are not well-informed, who listen to their own sources, who buy the lies…and these people can be energized to go out and do really dreadful things and we’ve seen it in front of abortion clinics - I’m afraid we’re going to see it with some of our political leaders. And the Glenn Becks of this world literally are responsible for unleashing what I regard as an anti-democratic, anti-american movement in this country that is trying to shut down legitimate debate and replace it with straight out intimidation.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzvmhNtmUks&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/7/763546/-Rachel-Maddow:-Finally!-Someone-speaks-truth-to-power!&feature=player_embedded

Even better, Rachel’s own scathing assessment of the situation, debunking the whole “euthanasia” lie and exposing the Corp lobbyists and their “wholly-owned subsidiary, the Republican party” behind the recent showdowns at town halls being held by Democrats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQlMVhF2y24&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/7/763546/-Rachel-Maddow:-Finally!-Someone-speaks-truth-to-power!&feature=player_embedded

Comment #72: judybrowni  on  08/08  at  01:01 AM

Mighty Ponygirl,

Small-town disconnect doesn’t require a small town.  Wanting to get involved isn’t the problem, being isolated from reality is.  I think your equating ignorance with “South Bumblefuck, Florida” is elitist crapola of the finest order rather than an assessment of what happened in places lsuch as Tampa Bay and elsewhere.  I won’t say Tampa Bay is an intellectual hotspot of poets and authors and great philosophers, but it’s definitely not a small town.

Plus, moving to a big city isn’t exactly a cure for a desire to be validated as an important person.  In fact, it’s often a prerequisite for some people.  They’re wrong, of course.  People can be self-important jackasses no matter where they live.  Whether it’s a one-room hut in Montana or a loft apartment in Queens, some people just need validation.

And her name was Neda, not Nada.  Nada is the preferred despotic Iranian governmental spelling, however.

Comment #73: 3letterjon  on  08/08  at  01:02 AM

And just like the women who make careers as antifeminists or the black intellectuals whose success is based on bashing affirmative action, some of the jews who align themselves with fundamentally antisemite right-wingers believe that they are exempt from the general hatred.

This is true, but I’m not convinced that our potential fascists are all fundamentally antisemitic, though I have no doubt that some of them are.  And though historically antisemitism has been an important aspect of most European far rights, it’s not a necessary aspect of fascism.

Comment #74: Ben Alpers  on  08/08  at  01:04 AM

People are not Nazi’s because they disagree with you. Showing up at a townhall meeting to be disruptive and obnoxious is not a crime.  It’s rude, and I’m not sure about the optics, but there’s nothing about it that’s beyond the pale thus far.

No, they’re acting like Nazis if, well, they’re acting like Nazis.  Read up on what the National Socialists did in the late 1920s and early 1930s, before Hindenburg caved in and appointed Hitler chancellor.  They weren’t tossing people into mobile gas chambers and killing the handicapped fromt he start.  Initially it was all about intimidation and blame.

Italy was officially a monarchy until 1946.  Germany was a monarchy until 1918, which meant you still had a lot of powerful people who remembered the good ol’ days of aristocracy.  The monarchy was voted out in Spain in 1931, which was one of the triggers of the Spanish Civil War.  The monarchy didn’t come back until Franco died and basically left it to them in his will.

That’s a tad simplistic.  Italy was a monarchy in nearly the same sense the UK (and most of the rest of the Commonwealth), Denmark, Norway, and the Netherlands, in other words a parliamentary monarchy where no one was under any illusion that Victor Emmanuel III was really in charge.

As for Spain, Juan Carlos became king because Franco sought to legitimize and continue phalangist rule.  He had the bright idea of indoctrinating a legal heir to the former throne as a good little fascist and then turning power over to him.  The old bastard must still be spinning in his grave when it turned out that Juan Carlos, the good little phalangist prince, turned out to be one goddamn magnificent human being.

Comment #75: KeithM  on  08/08  at  01:07 AM

America not only doesn’t have an aristocracy (celebrities might come close but they don’t control financial institutions), we have the kind of flimsy faux-meritocracy that is easily exposed for the fraud it is in an economic downturn.

Comment #76: DonnaDiva  on  08/08  at  01:07 AM

No, they’re acting like Nazis if, well, they’re acting like Nazis.  Read up on what the National Socialists did

Just use the abbreviation “Nazi”. You give them too much credit, and feed into Jonah’s “liberal fascism” myth, when you use their propaganda label for themselves. They weren’t socialists.

Comment #77: asdf  on  08/08  at  01:37 AM

That’s a tad simplistic.  Italy was a monarchy in nearly the same sense the UK (and most of the rest of the Commonwealth), Denmark, Norway, and the Netherlands, in other words a parliamentary monarchy where no one was under any illusion that Victor Emmanuel III was really in charge.

I think you missed my point.  All of those countries had a hereditary aristocracy, including a monarchy.  So did Japan.  In fact, I think that all of the countries that went fascist had a hereditary aristocracy.

I’m not saying we should read a huge amount into that fact since pretty much every country in Europe had a hereditary monarchy and aristocracy at some point (though the French kept getting tired of them and wheeling out Madame Guillotine).  I do think, however, that having an actual aristocracy did make a difference since you had a class of people whose power had been chipped away for years who were desperate to stay in charge.  They knew where the world was going and they knew that the privileges they’d been raised to believe were their birthright were vanishing.  Their best bet to hang onto even a ghost of their traditional position was to throw in with the fascist movements.

We don’t have that class of people here in the US.  We have a lot of rich people, we have families (like the Kennedys) who are spoken of as “American aristocracy.”  But we don’t have a class of people who remember that their grandfather ran his own little fiefdom until the (small d) democrats and communists started running around with their ideas about “equality” and “fairness.”  I think that the description as a group of people desperate to hold onto their traditional power fits most of the teabaggers, but they just don’t have the political and economic clout to get their way.  The mob is a tool, not the driving force, and only a fool thinks he can control the mob.

Comment #78: Mnemosyne  on  08/08  at  01:40 AM

But the plain fact is, without the snazzy uniforms it’s just going too dang far to call them fascists.

There’s something to ponder. If Rush Limbaugh went on the air Monday and told his horde “Okay, folks, now everyone show up wearing the same color shirt. Let’s say brown, ‘cause it’s the color of tea and it will drive the liberals crazy”, how many of them would do it, you reckon?

Comment #79: Matt T.  on  08/08  at  01:42 AM

http://www.seiu.org/2009/08/seiu-missouri-statement-on-last-nights-healthcare-town-hall-meeting.php

the teabaggers attacked a reverend in St Louis at a healthcare townhall and broke and dislocated his shoulder. sounds like the violence has already begun.

Comment #80: jessilikewhoa  on  08/08  at  01:46 AM

There is a sort of aristocracy in government.  The Republicans haven’t won the Presidency since Herbert Hoover’s day without having a Nixon or a Bush on the ticket.  Al Gore’s father was a Senator.  How many Kennedys are in government right now?  How many Udalls?  I think I heard Mitt Romney’s father was something or other.  The House isn’t exactly wide open, while the Senate really is an old club straight out of Wodehouse.  The Democrats have won the Presidency with outsiders who aren’t from the Usual Suspects Club (Carter and Clinton and definitely Obama weren’t members,) while the Republicans are stuck with outsiders and insiders battling it out to such a degree that the party lacks any drive other than to find its own purity.  “Pure what?” is something no member seems to bother with.  But their unthinking ideological struggles are generally welcomed by me as long as they don’t spill out into the real world.  Right now I kind of wish they’d get their shit together.

Comment #81: 3letterjon  on  08/08  at  02:01 AM

Amanda,

Racism is at the bottom of this.  If healthcare reform was being proposed by some bland white Democrat (think Walter Mondale) there would be some resistance from the usual moneyed interests, but we wouldn’t see the unleashing of full batshit crazy that is taking place at the moment.  The nasty white people just can’t deal with the idea of a black guy in their white house.  Toss in a bad economy and a lot of unemployment, and you’ve got a combustible mixture that is easily ignited by the corporate fixers who are expert at harnessing the anger of the stupid people.  It would help if we had responsible and honest media, but we don’t.  All we have is the Intertubes, and thank god for that.

Comment #82: Gizmo  on  08/08  at  02:03 AM

One other thing about my aristocracy rant:  both Italy and Germany were relatively new countries even as monarchies.  Italy was not united as a single country until 1861, and Germany followed 10 years later in 1871. The aristocracy diminished in power with every political change (the doges of Italy were their own monarchs until unification) and decided to shore themselves up.

Comment #83: Mnemosyne  on  08/08  at  02:03 AM

It all comes down to this: Are congressmen (by which I mean Democrats) going to stand fast against these thugs? Or will they be a bunch of…let’s just say “poltroons.”

Comment #84: Bitter Scribe  on  08/08  at  02:12 AM

MattMinus:

In fact, I guarantee that there’s a parallel thread to this on the Free Republic, detailing how the nefarious, liberal fascist ACORN movement tracks directly with the development of nazism. We’ve passed the tipping point when the Obamanation loosed his SEIU stormtroopers on the gentle, Gandhi-like teabaggers.

Of course, the difference between us and the folks at Free Republic is that we aren’t lying.

But thank you for demonstrating the “both sides” myth in action. Out here in reality, not all opinions are equally valid, and simply having one doesn’t entitle you to a goddamn thing.

Comment #85: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  08/08  at  02:37 AM

The lesson we should have learned from Dr. Tiller’s murder is that if someone is demonized enough in the mass media, some crazy person will try to kill them.

  Today on the Rachel Maddow show: Former right wing evangelical Frank Schaeffer testifies that the right wing elite is deliberately sending a message to their own crazy town:

  “Their coded message to their own lunatic fringe is very simple, ‘Go for broke’

~snip~

  [It is} literally leaving a loaded gun on the table, saying ‘The first person who wants to use this, go ahead’”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzvmhNtmUks&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/7/763546/-Update:-Thank-You-Rachel-MaddowFrank-Schaeffer!&feature=player_embedded

Comment #86: judybrowni  on  08/08  at  02:57 AM

Under the US Code, “domestic terrorism” are

activities that—

(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

The use of force in the health care debate would seem to qualify.  I’d love to see someone stand up and say “we will treat the use or threat of force as terrorism”.

Comment #87: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/08  at  05:54 AM

The monarchy was voted out in Spain in 1931, which was one of the triggers of the Spanish Civil War.  The monarchy didn’t come back until Franco died and basically left it to them in his will.

Actually, the spanish fascist party was republican since well before the beginning of the Republic. The will of Franco is more related to the complicated relations between the current king, his father and Franco himself. And the Republic started in a relatively state of calm, until the changes promoted by the centre-right government were followed by violent strikes and attempts at revolution by the unions and leftist parties. The Civil War was the result of the social tensions, but the monarchy had nothing to do with it- actually pretty much everybody agreed on that point, in a similar fashion as to what happened to the greek monarchy decades later.

Comment #88: elgie  on  08/08  at  06:44 AM

Oh, and I would add that a good deal of the support that the spanish fascists had came from the urban and industrial middle classes, who weren’t aristocratic at all. It’s true that they were soon betrayed by the new regime, just like they had been during the previous dictatorship with Primo de Rivera. But in the beginning they supported the rebels as a way to end the rise of socialism.
That same middle class played an important role in the rise of the german nazism, too.

Comment #89: elgie  on  08/08  at  06:49 AM

reminder that not a single one of these people will be tazed/hit with sticks/tear gassed by the cops

Yes!  That really pisses me off.  Not that I want anyone to be tasered, I do not, but I know that if the dirty fucking hippies were doing anything like this, there would have already been slam them on the pavement arrests, taserings, and roughing up - from the cops.

Comment #90: Lady Vader  on  08/08  at  07:41 AM

Ben you have made some very good points in your post, and I think that I agree.  I really don’t believe we’re at facism yet, and I think we are still missing a piece.  Here’s what I believe is the big concern, though it’s very difficult to talk about:

I think that we all know where this is heading.  You have unstable, mentally unbalanced people, who have armed themselves because they believe the President is coming to get their guns.  They are being told that this President is like HItler and is going to kill their grandmas.  He’s also black.

One of them is going to try and assassinate him.  They may succeed.  What happens if the first black president is assassinated by a racist redneck right winger?  There’s going to be societal repercussions, and it could definitely ignite a limited race-war.  Who’s going to put that down?

That’s going to be the single most dangerous moment this country faces in our lifetimes.  It’s not definitely going to happen, but I’m sick and tired of skirting around this fact:  Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and now some elected Republicans are TRYING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

Let’s at least be honest.  Let’s at least be able to start to talk about this.

Comment #91: Lady Vader  on  08/08  at  07:49 AM

Caton, we were talking about it same time last year. Black folks especially raised that concern to me again and again when I was doing voter registration drives. The only reason we sort of stopped talking about it is that things really seemed to calm down at the beginning of Barack’s presidency.

Comment #92: asdf  on  08/08  at  07:59 AM

Yes they did seem to calm down.  But we can see what’s happening now, and I am just so angry that these elected officials who should have some sense of social responsibility, and the limbaughs and the becks who are, in my opinion, inciting violence against the President, are getting away with it.

Why are they getting away with this?  Where the fuck is the MSM?  They are all going to sit around wringing their stupid hands afterwards.  Why don’t they report on what is really happening now, when there is still time?

Comment #93: Lady Vader  on  08/08  at  08:13 AM

Why is any company still advertising with these hatemongers?  What kind of country is this?

Comment #94: Lady Vader  on  08/08  at  08:14 AM

The corporate media took the side of the fascists and proto-fascists in the 1930s too. You can’t expect them to behave differently now.

Comment #95: asdf  on  08/08  at  08:18 AM

Holy cow, think about all the advertising dollars they could pull in if somebody killed the president. Think of the ratings! Well, they can hardly afford not to encourage violence.

Comment #96: asdf  on  08/08  at  08:27 AM

This book was mentioned on Olbermann’s show last night: http://books.google.com/books?id=hRpfud_bH0cC&printsec=frontcover

And I’m sure everyone’s familiar with this one: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

Comment #97: asdf  on  08/08  at  08:47 AM

Well, this morning there is a teabag protest against health care on the corner of Jericho tpke and route 110 in NY.  There’s been a counter protest planned.  I really have turned this over and over in my head, and I’m going to head out there.  I guess the bottom line is, now is when it counts.  If you don’t stand up now then all of the other times you did stand up seem kind of meaningless.  Protest and speech and advocacy only really matter when your right or ability to do any of them are under attack.  And I think that they are.

Comment #98: Lady Vader  on  08/08  at  09:00 AM

Take a sack lunch and prepare for the weather. I’m sure you’ll meet some good people there.

Comment #99: asdf  on  08/08  at  09:17 AM

Racism is at the bottom of this.  If healthcare reform was being proposed by some bland white Democrat (think Walter Mondale) there would be some resistance from the usual moneyed interests, but we wouldn’t see the unleashing of full batshit crazy that is taking place at the moment.

Agreed about racism, which is why I disagree about the potential for mob violence under a white President.  Because the subtext to all the anger is that black and Hispanic people living in poverty will get health care and therefore a foot in the door to becoming middle class.  Now, having a President who has become the most visible successful African-American in history does help focus their anger, but the reason health care itself has become the focus of the anger is that it carries with it an implication that they cannot avoid desegregation forever.

Comment #100: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/08  at  10:40 AM

One of them is going to try and assassinate him.

At this point, I’m more concerned about the safety of prominent liberal members of Congress who are routinely demonized on right wing talk radio and who don’t have extensive security, unlike the President.  They’ve traditionally been quite safe (with one prominent exception that really was a fluke), in part because the President attracts all the attention of the miscreants who want to assassinate someone.  But we don’t really have a lot of history of genuinely political assassinations of Presidents.  Just Lincoln, if I remember correctly, and even then, it was a revenge thing.

Comment #101: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/08  at  10:54 AM

Interesting discussion. Instead of addressing the long-term and the historical, as I’m usually inclined to do, I’m going to look at the short term. Since it’s the weekend, I’m gonna just throw this out there and enjoy my weekend. So…

Practically speaking, the question of the moment is one of desperation, and concerns one particular issue: specifically, are the cheap-labour neoCons and moneyCons who currently form the GOP establishment so desperate for power to give in to the anti-immigrant demands of Know-Nothing demagogues like Buchanan and Tancredo?

That’s the classic bellwether of fascism I’m watching, because it’s the very last issue that the neoCons and moneyCons will give ground on to their thuggish allies:

1968: Let the southern-style racism flow more freely? Hey, not like a lot of us are black.

1980: Incorporate religious dogma we don’t give a hang about? Sure, what’s the harm?

1990: Start encouraging the shut-down of abortion clinics and the murder of physicians who perform abortions? We’re rich, so we’ll just go back to the good old days of going out of state or out of country, or bribing doctors.

1996: Go after Federal-level politicians for various sex and financial scandals? Risky, but we can hide our skeletons better than those hapless Dems can.

2001: Subtract from everyone’s Constitutional rights in the name of a war against a concept?  We’re wealthy, so we can get around that.

2007: Deny certain classes of citizen their rights as stated under the Constitution and implied under the Declaration? We’re wealthy, so we can get around that (at a certain point they just start recycling that rationalisation).

2009: Go against the wishes of 75% of the people by opposing health insurance reform? A no-brainer! We work for or own the private insurers, so we’re alright, Jack. And that remaining 25% is still a powerful mob we can use to our advantage.

But eventually, in either 2012 or 2016, they’ll have to face the “immigration” issue (it’s a labour issue, but let’s move on). And make no mistake, the GOP party establishment simply cannot to do without its stoop farmworkers and meat processors, its construction workers and garment workers, its nannies and gardeners, its H1Bs to grad students on visa. But the Know-Nothings can: being uneducated racists, they feel an entitlement to the only jobs they can do outside of the more regulated retail service industry; and being anti-intellectual xenophobes, they want the dusky-hued techies and STEM PhD candidates out on the basis of spite alone.

So here’s the question for our own country’s conservative establishment: what’s it gonna be, GOP? You’ve diluted political discourse and even the Constitution to please this mob, this mouth-breathing 20% once known as the Bush Base. Never mind that you’ve shot yourselves in the foot at every step by reducing your larger voter base, you’re still one of the two parties in our two party system. But as 2006 and 2008 demonstrated, you’ve been left scrambling. The desperation is of your own making, but now it’s time to see if you’re desperate enough to endanger the one thing that matters to you: your bank accounts.

You’ve proudly led the way (with the collusion of neoliberal Dems) in destroying America’s manufacturing base; you’ve made our public education system, the starting point for national innvoation, a global joke; you’ve squandered resources on a military empire we’re not inclined or equipped to administer; you’ve put us at least a generation behind where we should be on alternative and domestic-based energy generation. And to top it off you’ve put us in hock to our greatest potential economic rival, who’s racing to eliminate the word “potential” before everyone acknowledges that the collateral behind all that paper is gone.

In sort, you have nothing left in your bag of tricks but cheap domestic labour, and that’s exactly what those ever-so-useful Know-Nothing thugs are going to be going after next.

Have fun, arseholes.

Comment #102: Gracchus.  on  08/08  at  11:09 AM

@Amanda Marcotte

See: Glenn Beck making a “joke” about poisoning Nancy Pelosi’s wine.

Comment #103: Ben D.  on  08/08  at  12:14 PM

Also good point about how every Presidential assassin except John Wilkes Booth wasn’t doing it for political reasons, but because they were fucking insane. Well, except maybe Garfield’s assassin—he was a disgruntled patronage seeker, I guess that would be political.

Comment #104: Ben D.  on  08/08  at  12:17 PM

Also good point about how every Presidential assassin except John Wilkes Booth wasn’t doing it for political reasons, but because they were fucking insane. Well, except maybe Garfield’s assassin—he was a disgruntled patronage seeker, I guess that would be political.

Garfield’s assassin, Charles Guiteau, was seeking a political post, but underlying that was the factionalism that afflicted the Republican Party at the time (the factions being the Stalwarts and the Half-Breeds).  If your faction isn’t in the position to be handing out offices, well, you’re going to be upset about that.  The Pendelton Civil Service Act was passed directly in response to the spoils system that precipitated Garfield’s assassination.

I would argue that William McKinley’s assassination was political.  The assassin, Leon Czolgosz, wasn’t part of any conspiracy or organized movement, but he claimed political motives for shooting McKinley and he was involved in anarchist politics.  In fact, Emma Goldman was arrested and detained in connection with the assassination, because Czolgosz attended a speech given by Goldman and spoke briefly with Goldman shortly before going to Buffalo to assassinate McKinley.  This was a pretty turbulent time politically in the United States, as radical political movements were growing and becoming more active.

Comment #105: Linnaeus  on  08/08  at  12:27 PM

Czolgosz was believed by other anarchists to be a government plant. His demeanor and rhetoric freaked them out, so he was avoided. Certainly, disturbed people can have political motivations. But his act was recklessly chosen, and not a thoughtfully considered political move. That said, Czolgosz was lucid enough to realize that the prevailing economic system had contributed to his isolation and loneliness. He was striking back in anger against a system that had hurt him first. Many others like him have instead chosen to hunt the innocent and easily victimized.

Comment #106: asdf  on  08/08  at  12:54 PM

Oh, I don’t dispute that Czolgosz was a disturbed man (as was Guiteau).  Not to get too off topic here, but I suppose what constitutes a political assassination depends somewhat on the eye of the beholder.  American presidential assassinations had shallow political roots compared to similar events in other countries, but I still would argue that there were important political elements.

Comment #107: Linnaeus  on  08/08  at  01:01 PM

I don’t disagree.

Comment #108: asdf  on  08/08  at  01:04 PM

Booth’s assassination was political, and more that is too close to the current situation for comfort.

In fact, Lincoln had been so demonized with eliminationist rhetoric in the South (and collaborationist parts of the North) that Booth believed he’d be lionized for the assassination.

By report, Booth was shocked that he wasn’t garlanded for killing Lincoln—not a surprise to us, but after Lincoln’s death even in the South Booth was characterized as the lone, crazy gun man (sound familiar?)

Booth felt betrayed: he’d done what he been told would be a heroic act, and was not rewarded for it.

Comment #109: judybrowni  on  08/08  at  01:34 PM

Here’s some fight back for the eliminationist rhetoric of right wing propaganda:

Glen Beck’s advertisers are being contacted and presented with examples of his hate speech—and major advertisers are now dropping his show.

“Fox News is getting so desperate for ads to air during Beck’s show that they are now airing in primetime slots ads originally purchased for the much cheaper 1AM-5AM time slots. We just need to keep up the pressure on these companies that continue to endorse Fox News’ hate speech, and extend the boycott to Hannity’s show.”

Join the fun:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/8/763611/-UPDATED-X8:-The-Glenn-Beck-Fox-Boycott-is-Working!!-Here-is-PROOF.-Now-with-updated-contact-info .

Comment #110: judybrowni  on  08/08  at  01:44 PM

Diffidently,

I’m impressed. That’s a big word for such a dumb fuck as yourself.

I point out the incidents of thugs beating citizens recently on the internet seemed to be Dems .

ORLY?

Also , does anyone have any worries about the DOJ not prosecuting the voter intimidation case brought against ACORN ?

No.

Finally , I’ve written before that many of you seem to self censor what you read.  The most recent best seller on Fascism (by Jonah Goldberg) covered this in some depth. Any readers here ?

Jonah Goldberg doesn’t even understand what fascism is. Smart right-wingers agree that book isn’t even worth buying from the dollar bin.

You tipped you dumbfuck hand, corwin.

Comment #111: asdf  on  08/08  at  02:15 PM

There is a sort of aristocracy in government.  The Republicans haven’t won the Presidency since Herbert Hoover’s day without having a Nixon or a Bush on the ticket.  Al Gore’s father was a Senator.  How many Kennedys are in government right now?  How many Udalls?  I think I heard Mitt Romney’s father was something or other.

I disagree that’s an aristocracy: what’s happening there is the same thing that happens in a lot of professions where a child grows up and falls into the same career as one or both of their parents.  No one really talks about the firefighter class, and that’s a highly heritable job.  As are lawyers, doctors, general contractors, cops, military officers, teachers, nurses, farmers, fishermen/women…

If I grow up the son of a politician, that obviously gives me a leg up not necessarily because politicians are looking after their own, but because (a) I have familiarity with the occupation and, very importantly, (b) I know people and people know me, which is the most important bit of politics.  Someone who comes in from the outside without those inherent advantages has to be either very good or have some other means of recognition: that Al Gore and George Bush and Franklin Roosevelt and many of the Kennedys would end up in politics would be a reasonable expectation given their families.  Al Franken and Ronald Reagan and Schwarzeneggar had an advantage in being known for something else.  Clinton, Obama, Nixon…those guys worked for what they received.

Comment #112: KeithM  on  08/08  at  02:29 PM

Also , does anyone have any worries about the DOJ not prosecuting the voter intimidation case brought against ACORN ?

No, because it’s BS.

The most recent best seller on Fascism (by Jonah Goldberg) covered this in some depth.

Jonah Goldberg has never made a coherent point about fascism in his life.

Comment #113: Rebecca  on  08/08  at  02:41 PM

Related, here’s David Neiwert himself with his latest post.

Comment #114: Seebach  on  08/08  at  02:48 PM

It’s not like the Republicans can whine if we get advertiser’s to dump Beck—hey, free market, motherfuckers!

Comment #115: Ben D.  on  08/08  at  03:09 PM

The most recent best seller on Fascism (by Jonah Goldberg) covered this in some depth.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

OMG, that’s the best laugh I’ve had all week.  Colbert’s gonna have to work hard to top that one.

Comment #116: latts  on  08/08  at  03:09 PM

There is a sort of aristocracy in government.  The Republicans haven’t won the Presidency since Herbert Hoover’s day without having a Nixon or a Bush on the ticket.  Al Gore’s father was a Senator.  How many Kennedys are in government right now?  How many Udalls?  I think I heard Mitt Romney’s father was something or other.

This was one of my reasons for supporting Obama over Clinton in the primary. I don’t have a problem with political dynasties if their service is spread out far enough—John Quincy Adams waited twenty years until after his father to run. I just don’t think its healthy for democracy when it is back-to-back-to-back.

Comment #117: Ben D.  on  08/08  at  03:10 PM

Hmm. Hanging a congressman in effigy wouldn’t be considered intimidated the government, now would it.

Comment #119: paul  on  08/08  at  03:26 PM

As I predicted earlier, this right-wing intimidation would shut down Democratic town halls where the reps had reason to fear violence:

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/brown-shirts-town-hall-teabaggers-ra

Rightly so, but still a thin wedge of lobbyist generated fanatics have accomplished their goal: silencing any true discussion of healthcare.

Thanks Blue Dogs, for giving them the opportunity!

Comment #120: judybrowni  on  08/08  at  03:34 PM

Because the subtext to all the anger is that black and Hispanic people living in poverty will get health care and therefore a foot in the door to becoming middle class.

I don’t know if they’ve thought through the “becoming middle class” point.  In fact, I would guess that they are worried that black and Hispanic people will get free health care and thus be allowed to continue to be lazy and parasitic rather than God-fearin’, hard-workin’, rules-playin’-by ‘Mericans.  It’s the same old “welfare queen” vision. 

But along with the racist upsurge, I still think there’s also a very strong element of fear around Communism/totalitarianism, which stuns me, because it’s been about 50 years since that was a popular strain of paranoia.  All this talk about how a health care reform initiative—of all fucking things—is tyranny, or overturns American liberty and freedom:  that’s what I’m flabbergasted by.  I can’t believe anyone is still worried about that.  And they’re not _pretending_ to be worried; it’s causing actual tears.  What the hell is that?  Has it been kept alive underground by hardcore evangelicals or something?  It seems to be that panic about Communist dictatorship is a bit like panic about the Freemasons.

Comment #121: FlipYrWhig  on  08/08  at  04:08 PM

Correct that last line:  for “it seems to be” read “it seems to me.”

Comment #122: FlipYrWhig  on  08/08  at  04:09 PM

Wait, I just remembered the militia people, who were worried about the “New World Order” being enforced by the UN’s black helicopters.  That was only 10-15 years ago.  Still, I never would have expected that _health care_ would be the flashpoint for all this paranoid weirdness.

Comment #123: FlipYrWhig  on  08/08  at  04:21 PM

In sort, you have nothing left in your bag of tricks but cheap domestic labour, and that’s exactly what those ever-so-useful Know-Nothing thugs are going to be going after next.

Considering the “get a [better] job” rhetoric going around the anti-health care reform protests, I’m pretty sure those people are already under attack. Don’t forget, we live in a society where someone with John Galt fantasies is implicitly encouraged to ignore all the teachers, assistants, and employees that made their success possible—after all, they’re the idea men. Why should they have to give credit to mere grunts?

Comment #124: BrianX  on  08/08  at  04:22 PM

I’m going to go out on a limb and make the following prediction: the press will not portray the right-wing protesters with any amount of sympathy because the press is part of that middle class/upper middle class getting squeezed by health care costs and health insurance companies. In many issues in the press, the right-wingers can get the press to mindlessly repeat their dishonest views because such things are considered “all part of the game” (the Iraq war, creationism, global warming, the 2000 election, etc). Members of the press themselves have actual disputes with insurance companies, actual problems getting insurance as free-lancers and actual parents being hit by bankrupting health care costs in late middle age.

The press, at times, bends over backwards to echo the talking points and interests of right-wingers in an effort to ingratiate themselves with “the heartland,” but in this case, a bunch of protestors shouting down congressman effectively saying telling reporters, “we hope you never get health insurance and that your parents go bankrupt” is not an effective means of getting your message sold to the public.

Comment #125: Tyro  on  08/08  at  04:25 PM

There’s something to ponder. If Rush Limbaugh went on the air Monday and told his horde “Okay, folks, now everyone show up wearing the same color shirt. Let’s say brown, ‘cause it’s the color of tea and it will drive the liberals crazy”, how many of them would do it, you reckon?

And, as uninformed as they are, will completely miss the point that tea is actually dark red.

Among other things.

Comment #126: BrianX  on  08/08  at  04:27 PM

No, it’s more like, “Those lazy, scary brown people will get healthcare, and my grandmother will be killed for it!”

That’s the line being pushed: you and yours will be “rationed”, the bad other will get the goodies.

And the right wing voters have bought it wholesale, because it fits their underlying racist world view.

Comment #127: judybrowni  on  08/08  at  04:31 PM

But along with the racist upsurge, I still think there’s also a very strong element of fear around Communism/totalitarianism, which stuns me, because it’s been about 50 years since that was a popular strain of paranoia.  All this talk about how a health care reform initiative—of all fucking things—is tyranny, or overturns American liberty and freedom:  that’s what I’m flabbergasted by.  I can’t believe anyone is still worried about that.  And they’re not _pretending_ to be worried; it’s causing actual tears.  What the hell is that?  Has it been kept alive underground by hardcore evangelicals or something?  It seems to be that panic about Communist dictatorship is a bit like panic about the Freemasons.

If you’re a Republican of 70 or 80, as the senile teabaggers seem to be, you were born in 1930 or 1940 and came of age during the height of the Cold War; the last years of the Cold War (Reagan 1980s) might be the last period you remember with any fondness. And the last period in which you were capable of really assimilating any information. Now all new information enters their heads hazed with the free-floating anxiety of cognitive decline.

(note: I am not bashing old people as a whole, but those whose refusal to actually learn anything accelerates their decline)

Comment #128: sara  on  08/08  at  05:32 PM

@ sara:  That’s my pet theory too.  The WWII generation is smarter than that; they may have a kind of triumphalist view of America, but I feel like that Depression/WWII moment sees American superiority as linked to a belief that Americans are unselfish and play fair.  (Whether any of that is true, well, that’s a different story.)  But this riled-up generation that’s overrepresented in these protests—they look to be the group that was too young for WWII and too old for Vietnam.  Thus, as you said, right at the apex of the Cold War.

Comment #129: FlipYrWhig  on  08/08  at  05:41 PM

You guys are so right about this being about race.  I went to a anti-teabagger counter protest today.  Sadly they outnumbered us about 4 to 1.  Liberals really need to get better organized.  Anyway, an elderly couple came up behind me and the woman I was talking to and the man said “what are you people crazy with this?”  And I turned to him and said “I want what you have”.  (meaning medicare obviously).  And he said “well, you can have it, you can have it..but don’t you see they’re going to give it to the illegal immigrants”.

This guy really didn’t begrudge me the same health care he has.  But he wasn’t going to stand for “illegal immigrants” getting it.

Then, exactly four times, a group of youngish white men (they looked very much like your typical Ron Paul supporters, though I have no evidence they were) said to me “you’re tellign me you dont’ have health insurance”?  and “you have health insurance, come on.”

They took one look at me and assumed I have health insurance.  Why?

This is all about white entitlement.  It’s the most fucked up thing.

Comment #130: Lady Vader  on  08/08  at  07:34 PM

You guys are so right about this being about race.  I went to a anti-teabagger counter protest today.  Sadly they outnumbered us about 4 to 1.  Liberals really need to get better organized.

I think the biggest problem is this: Teabaggers are either retired and/or have no life so they can show up at these things in bigger numbers and more often than liberals (or moderates) can.

Comment #131: Ben D.  on  08/08  at  07:46 PM

I think the biggest problem is this: Teabaggers are either retired and/or have no life so they can show up at these things in bigger numbers and more often than liberals (or moderates) can.

We turned out millions for anti-war protests. Of course we can do this. Come on.

Comment #132: Tyro  on  08/08  at  08:19 PM

Ben, I don’t think that’s it.  I think that they’re coming out, first, because they are well-funded.  These guys had professionally printed color banners, they had megaphones, they had a big stereo system.

But more than that, I think they are outnumbering us because they’re for something:  Keeping brown people from ruining their free rides.  that’s what theyr’e for.  There’s a lot of self-interest, racism, and “I got mine, fuck you” there.

What do we have?  Obama took out his most passionate supporters early on by a refusal to give single-payer propenents a seat at the table.  He’s making deals with big pharma.  There’s not even a strong public option for us to get behind yet, and may never be.  In short, we don’t know what the fuck we’re out there supporting.

The only people out there now are those who, like me, are so goddamned pissed off at these tactics and terrible lies by the other side, that we want to be out there standing against them. But what are we standing for?

No one really knows.  That’s a problem, and this is Obama’s fault.  I am so disappointed and surprised at how badly he has f’d this up.  I blame Rahm.  But I’m not in the room, so I may be blaming the wrong person. That’s who my money is on, until further info comes to light.

Comment #133: Lady Vader  on  08/08  at  08:29 PM

Yeah, my money’s on Rahm, too.

Comment #134: Punditus Maximus  on  08/08  at  08:52 PM

Another observation of current trends. Far right extremists create social disorder then point to the need for tighter clampdowns on “lawlessness”. they are tools through and through.

Comment #135: Therealhellkitty  on  08/08  at  09:06 PM

this actually is scaring the hell out of me.

i am nothing but pre-existing conditions. i have acute intermitent porphyria (which means a lot of things, not the least of which is that pregnancy will kill me, and generally before the end of the 5th month. and i can’t take a LOT of meds, and there are even MORE meds that i cannot take generic) i have asymptomatic Rhumatoid Arthritis (as in, joint swelling and pain, but the main test for RA comes up negative - and my insurance, awesome as it is in most testing areas, doesn’t cover the test for ARA, because it isn’t performed at an OSU-related facility… so i am still paying for that 3k test). i have had in the past year 2 surgeries on my hip (one where they cut it off, rotated it and put it back on) and 2 surgeries and 15k in antibiotcs because they gave me MRSA during the last hip surgery. i have to have AT LEAST one more surgery (on Aug 27, so everyone who does anything - a prayer, a chant, some incense, some spaghetti sauce for the FSM - anything and everything that it finally fixes it this time WITHOUT the MRSA)

but what - besides the 10%+ of the surgeries and procedures that i still have to try and pay for (and - lovely - my insurance is refusing to pay for the MRSA related stuff, because i got MRSA from the hospital. the hospital is refusing to acknowledge that they are in any way responsible for the MRSA - so i may have to end up paying the TOTAL bill of those last two surgeries and for all the care, meds, and 8 days in the hospital. and 27 IVs - which is how many i went thru. sigh)

this means that after i graduate, almost everything i NEED to be covered is a “pre-existing condition”. my pain management doc, who doesn’t *just* help with my hip, but with everything? won’t be covered. my meds, for dealing with the other pain (and thankfully, those are mostly muscle relaxers whew) won’t be covered. my BC, which i *NEED* because pregnancy will KILL me, won’t be covered. any infection i get, won’t be covered (i was told that any new infection could be a resurgance of the MRSA and the MRSA is a pre-existing condition).

i actually am pretty sure that i won’t be able to get *ANY* insurance, unless i get a government job - the insurance companies would want too much more for me, and would raise the rates of EVERYONE at any place i worked, unless i opted out of health care - and to get a job, it is entirely possible that i wou;d be forced to sign away my health insurance to get the job, other i probably won’t be hired. i have been shopping around for insurance for JUST ME.

the CHEAPEST INSURANCE I COULD FIND that would, after 12-18 months agree to start dealing with pre-existings(but only at the very lowest rate, where i would have a co-pay of $15/visit AND a co-insurance of 65% of the total bill, BEFORE i pay the $15 copay)? over $1,000. a month
*AND* it will only kick i if i can go the entire lenth of 12 or 18 months without being treated or seen for my pre=existing conditions at ALL. period. i would somehow have to survive for a year and a half with chronic illnesses which are sometimes life-threateneing, and get ZERO TREATMENT OF ANY KIND FOR A MINIMUM OF 12 MONTHS.
or i could go for one that would NEVER deal with pre-existings, and pay “only” $600 a month for it. and it would cover NOTHING that i need treatment for, it would ONLY cover new things = and ONLY if i can PROVE that said new thing was NOT caused by an old thing. like, say i get uterine cancer - they could (and would, i got a VERY honest insurance person talking to me, becaue i’m pretty sure she didn’t want me as a client) and theyWOULD argue that i have porphyria, and so i take Birth Control to avoid pregnancy, and its possible that the BC *gave* me the uterine cancer. not LIKELY, less than a 1% chance, but enough so that they won’t cover it.

in short, once i graduate from OSU (probably next June) i am <I><B>F*U*C*K*E*D. well, i can get a last quarter of insurance, that will last thru Sept 15 of 2010. THEN i am fucked. i actually totally think my ONLY recourse will be to stay in school and get my Masters and my Ph.D so i can keep insurance (and to drastically increase my chances of a job with a government agency that *WILL* give me health insurance).

except, as of 2.5 years ago, i because incrediblyhorrible DISABLED MORE. i can’t sit upright for more than 10 minues at a time. but SSI and SSDI some think that there is a job somewhere that i can do lying flat on my back (and no hooker jokes - not because they are bad taste, but because it hurts too much to have sex)

(cont.)

Comment #136: denelian  on  08/09  at  07:07 AM

denelian,

MRSA is a pre-exsting condition?  That’s the most fucked-up thing I’ve read in some time, considering the fact that it is likely that you first came into contact with it at a hospital, about one in ten hospital workers carry that bacteria, and it is also something that can exist on a carrier without any flare ups or complications.  I guess your insurance company is telling you that if you choose a hospital that doesn’t clean every surface constantly, it’s your fault.

I recommend pursuing a library degree with a focus on cataloging and virtual reference.  I was going to suggest that you could get an epidural before each hooker session, but the chance of infection is too great especially considering it wouldn’t be covered.  Plus, a man who wants to have sex with a woman who doesn’t feel anything probably isn’t the best kind of client.

Comment #137: 3letterjon  on  08/09  at  08:25 AM

@ Amanda-

I realize that your concern is that the leadership is backing the “thugs”, but I’d raise a few objections to that.
First is the characterization of right win activists as thugs. For this to apply, you’ve really got to define thuggery down to the point that it’s meaningless. Where is the evidence? I see right wing activists protesting in a loud, disruptive, obnoxious fashion, but there doesn’t appear to be any serious illegality going on. Can you really conflate boisterous protesting with intimidation? It seems we’ve got the same impulse to try to marginalize and invalidate the other sides activists that was so prominent on the right during the Bush years.

Death-threats made over the internet are to wingnuts what kirk/spock erotic fanfic is to trekkers. Have you ever seen the Free Republic? If they make a politician with an overweening sense of self-importance too ‘fraidy scared to hold a town hall, that’s really more on him/her. You can’t extend the actions of some idiot on the internet paint everyone agitating for the same policies as a terrorist or nazi. That kind of game is how we get stuck with Ward Churchill.

This relates to objections around the idea that we’ve crossed the threshold set by some arbitrary framework, and we’re scientifically doomed to have to call our opponents Nazi’s because Robert Paxton says so. His steps towards fascism, at least as described on Orcinus,  are overly broad and confuse some general, timeless conservative characteristics with those of a narrowly defined 20th century ideology.

“The way the organizing story is told varies from country to country; but it’s always rooted in the promise of restoring lost national pride by resurrecting the culture’s traditional myths and values, and purging society of the toxic influence of the outsiders and intellectuals who are blamed for their current misery.”

Is Juvenal the precursor to Mussolini? Looks like we’re describing something near a tautology where all conservatives are at least proto-Nazis.

Even if we accept Paxton’s system, have we really blown past the point where “America’s conservative elites have openly thrown in with the country’s legions of discontented far right thugs”? This strikes me as another misrepresentation of the relationship between powerful interest groups and political activists. Should it be shocking that pressure groups apply pressure and will do what they can to get activists out to represent their interests? The fact that the activists are being used to represent elite interests, interests that are likely opposed to their own, changes nothing. In fact, I think we’d all be thrilled if democratic elites were a little more supportive of our activists. We certainly wouldn’t call it fascism.

John Boehner dickishly taunts Democrats who will have a “long, hot August.” Only in the fevered imaginations of an ultra partisan is this an exhortation to violence. It’s entirely predictable that he cheers on activism that creates a perception that there is massive grassroots support for his position. I don’t think this is enough evidence to say “Godwin’s law doesn’t apply if they’re acting like Nazis.” He’s acting like a dick, not a nazi. Nazis didn’t just taunt, they, you know, killed people. It’s not good enough to say his dickery is the first baby step towards killing people. He’s allowed to be a dick.

Anyway, I think Sara gives up the game near the end of the piece with: “Every day that the conservatives in Congress, the right-wing talking heads, and their noisy minions are allowed to hold up our ability to govern the country is another day we’re slowly creeping across the final line beyond which, history tells us, no country has ever been able to return.”

ORLY?

Here she really lays it all out that the problem is that they dissent. Their pressure groups and activists are Nazis because they are interfering with the implementation of our agenda. Not through any illegal means, mind you, just through aggressive activism. This seems suspiciously similar to the “why do you hate our troops?” line of argument that the right trotted out against any criticism from the left during the Bush years. Opposition parties are allowed to oppose. We shouldn’t be engaging in the same apocalyptic, dialectical bullshit. We weren’t a 5th column, they’re not Nazis. Until a line brighter than getting a busload of Abe Simpsons together is crossed, I’m gonna keep calling Godwin on this nonsense.

Comment #138: MattMinus  on  08/09  at  10:17 AM

this is the second half to that above post, that i don’t know why it didn’t post… i thought it had. but it hadn’t. glad i had pasted everything into Word when i realized i’d have to split the post…

despite what the fucking repthug CC-teabagin fundy fucktards think, this is not a punishement, i have done nothing to deserve this. i am a PERSON who LOST BAD in the genetic lottery (well, the health aspects of it. my IQ is off the chart, but i can’t currently pic up most of my textbooks because they weigh more than i am allowed to move and everytime i TRY to do more i end up on forced bed rest for days, or even weeks…)

the thing is - i am ranting about *ME* ONLY because i know all the SPECIFICS of me! if healthcare reform doesn’t happen with a BUFF public option - by which i mean cheaper than from the insurance companies but PAYING MORE and being TOTALLY NON-EXCLUSINARY, I, and THOUSANDS, TENS, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS are GOING TO END UP EVEN *MORE* FUCKED.

because THIS is what i am hearing right now as the most likely scenario:
everything stays the same with TWO exceptions. exception one, NOW EVERY ADULT WILL BE *REQUIRED* TO HAVE INSURANE and exception two PRICES ARE GOING TO GO UP BECAUSE *EVERYONE WILL NOW BE REQUIRED TO HAVE INSURANCE* AND SO THE INSURANCE COMPANIES WILL CONTINUE TO CHARGE ALL THAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR.

i sent most of this to Obama in email - lets hope SOMEONE brings this and similiar emails to the President’s attention. he needs to know how many of us are TERRIFIED that we are going to be forced to pay MORE THAN OUR RENT to aquire “health insurance” that DOESN"T FUCKING PAY FOR ANY OF THE FUCKNG THINGS WE NEED IT TO FUCKING PAY FOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


(oh gods somebody please save me… another surgery… it’s supposed to be the last once. i keep hearing that… i want off these fucking meds, i want to be able to SIT UP for more than 10 minutes without agony, i want o be abe to do things, little things like putting the dishes away, wthout ending i[ stuck on the fucking bed for 3 fucking days because i put the dishes away…) i would try to start a “Give me medical care or give me death” - but its too true. too many people die every fucking year in this fucking country because they CAN’T pay ERs ONLY have to STABALIZE patients, thats IT - if they don’t have insurance or money, the ER works to get their vitals stable, then kicks them out, because that is WHAT ERs ARE DESIGNED FOR. they are designed to STABALIZE ACUTE AND/OR LIFE THREATENING SITUATIONS. friend with diabetes was slipping into diabetic coma - they gave her insulin and glucose until her sugar was around 120 and then KICKED HER OUT - KNOWING she had NO MORE INSULIN - no insurance, no doctor to write the Rx - THEY would not write her an Rx because, i dont know why. she DIED because no one would do any more than THAT. she DIED. she has a 8 year old son - she was going to be married to a Marine as soon as he was home from the sandbox then she would have had insurance, but not before (did they change policies, or add a new one, or something? fiancees used to get coverage and such, partial anyway…)
she is DEAD. and the fucking Republicans and the Insurance Lobbyists want everything to STAY THE SAME. she WORKED, she worked her ASS OFF, at 2 jobs that would only give her 34.5 hours per week, because at 35 hours they would have to give her benefits. and she fucking DIED.

just *weeps* at the wrong assumtions made, over and over, about who and what and why in Health Care. because that trip to the ER where they “stabalized” my friend? paid for with tax dollars. and it cost only $12,000 more than a doctor’d visit and an Rx would have cost. except if could have afforded the doctor, she would be *alive* - but i guess the FarRightFundys would rather a mother DIE than take ANY chance that a person who is unlucky in the genetic lottery (juvenile onset diabetes - NOT her fault in any way, she was so skinny because of her diabetes. course most normal assholes on the right wouldn’t be abe to tell the difference between Type I and Type II, and would assume *all* diabetes came because fat lazy people. grrr!) they would rather she, and everyone who is chronically ill *die*, rather than “take the chance” that THEIR *tax money* help someone who is a “freeloader”. i HATE PEOPLE!!!

thanks, Jon. i think. MRSA is a pre-existing, because it is well known that people who get MRSA

Comment #139: denelian  on  08/09  at  11:29 AM

sorry… i don’t know why that posted.

MRSA is a pre-existing because it is well known that people who get MRSA once will probably get it *again* - not because of *THEM*, bt because it is insanely hard to kill and get rid of totally.

i’m going back to sleep. where i can dream of using my upcoming degree to play diplomat in the State Department while on my back - i can negotiate treaties with the UN via conference phone or something. sigh.

Comment #140: denelian  on  08/09  at  11:32 AM

Well, reading denelian ‘s problems hasn’t stopped me feeling sorry for myself - but it’s enough to stop me taking my self-pity seriously.

No suggestions, alas, dear.  Sorry.

Comment #141: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/09  at  01:13 PM

I’m not much good at consolation, but, denelian, I’m touched-slash-pissed off by your story, and I send good wishes your way.

Comment #142: FlipYrWhig  on  08/09  at  03:07 PM

That kind of game is how we get stuck with Ward Churchill.

By which you mean you get stuck with loudmouths who speak the truth in ways that are considered impolite by the powerful?

Comment #143: BlackBloc  on  08/09  at  08:11 PM

i have *VERY* strict rules for myself… one of them is NO MORE COMPUTER after i have taken my night meds.

because, thanx guys - but i was really, really incoherent. very sorry for the incoherence.. but, on the other hand - you guys seem more upset at the story then how i told it, so i’ll just chalk this up to Christina being really, really sympathetic (my diabetic friend…)

i can’t do anything, but that isn’t going to intrinsicly kill me, either. i was just bitching about me - i was keening for Christina. it’s been over a year and i *still* can’t believe she is dead…


anyway - please ignore me now, sorry for the posting-while-over-medicated…

Comment #144: denelian  on  08/09  at  08:21 PM

BlacBloc, I’m not so sure that what Churchill speaks is truth, starting from his appropriated ethnic identities on up.

Comment #145: Ms Kate  on  08/09  at  09:56 PM

The last time there was such furious scoffing at the educated, five year plans and great leaps forward abounded!

Which is to say such things are the antithesis of democracy ...

Comment #146: Ms Kate  on  08/09  at  09:57 PM

Cultural fascism is linked to the psychological regression, at a societal level to <a href=“http://unsanesafe.blogspot.com/2009/08/danger-of-primary-processes-and-their.html”>.

Regression to the habit of establishing meaning and identity on the basis of these infantile processes is felt to be revitalising, since these processes were learned in childhood, when one felt the most like one was being nurtured and belonged implicitly to a greater whole (ie. via the connection to the mother’s body and one’s unity with it).

Comment #147: scratchy888  on  08/10  at  06:04 AM

Cultural fascism is linked to the psychological regression, at a societal level to primary processes.


Regression to the habit of establishing meaning and identity on the basis of these infantile processes is felt to be revitalising, since these processes were learned in childhood, when one felt the most like one was being nurtured and belonged implicitly to a greater whole (ie. via the connection to the mother’s body and one’s unity with it).

Comment #148: scratchy888  on  08/10  at  06:04 AM

I still think there’s also a very strong element of fear around Communism/totalitarianism, which stuns me, because it’s been about 50 years since that was a popular strain of paranoia.

You must have been asleep throughout the majority of the 1980s, when Hollywood loved playing up the fear of communism (and specifically nuclear annhilation involving the USSR) in a large number of mainstream films.

I was fairly young in the 80s, but I remember being taught that the USSR was a very, very scary place.

Comment #149: DTG in STL  on  08/11  at  12:44 AM

Members of the press themselves have actual disputes with insurance companies, actual problems getting insurance as free-lancers and actual parents being hit by bankrupting health care costs in late middle age.

Network and cable news talking heads don’t really have these concerns, because most of thm make well into the 7-8 figure salary range.

I would argue th same holds true for a fair number of nationally syndicated writers, who also make well into the 6 figures in income.

These people generally don’t have to deal with this crisis.  Katie Couric and her $8 Million per year paycheck will never have to worry about being desroyed financially by a medical emergency.

Comment #150: DTG in STL  on  08/11  at  12:49 AM

MRSA is a pre-existing because it is well known that people who get MRSA once will probably get it *again* - not because of *THEM*, bt because it is insanely hard to kill and get rid of totally.

or, they could catch it again from hospital personnel:

Problems with disinfectants, antiseptics and hand-wash

Hospital bacteria such as MRSA are becoming resistant to most disinfectants and antiseptics used in hospitals to clean surfaces, sterilize medical instruments and equipment, and decontaminate skin before surgery.

Although aseptic technique (techniques to prevent contamination of wounds and other susceptible sites) is critical to obtain reliable results, it is infrequently taught and audited. Skin cleaning is often incomplete, and many attendants still palpate the venipuncture site with non-sterile gloves before needle insertion. 58% of healthcare workers are said to be colonized with MRSA.

Link

Oddly enough, one of the few weapons that has consistently work are pads that use honey, which is a natural antiseptic, also found useful in the treatment of diabetics who have skin trauma or ulcers,  and works essentially by drying things up so that bacteria are unable to grow.

Comment #151: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/11  at  04:57 AM
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