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Next entry: The entitled wingnut and his silencing tactics Previous entry: This Splinter In My Finger?  Probably Muslim

Let’s Just Assume For Sake Of Argument…And Lifelong Solitary Confinement

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell asks what happens if Ahmed Ghaliani is found not guilty and…wait, let me clear this up a bit.  Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell asks what happens if evil terrorist and guilty-as-sin because he’s obviously a terrorist (and, oh, evil) Ahmed Ghaliani is found not guilty and is told by the federal government to rent out your garage apartment from the Twitter or Craigslist.

Today Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Kentucky, asked, “if we’re going to treat this terrorist detainee as a common civilian criminal, what will happen to Ghailani if he’s found not guilty? And what will happen to other detainees the administration wants to try in civilian courts if they are found not guilty? Will they be released? If so, where? In New York? In American communities? Or will they be released overseas, where they could return to terror and target American soldiers or innocent civilians?”

McConnell continued: “If Ghailani isn’t allowed to go free, will he be detained by the government? If so, where will he be detained? Would the administration detain him on U.S. soil, despite the objections of Congress and the American people?”

See, this sets up the fundamental disconnect between what our system of fighting terrorism is and what it should be.  McConnell’s presumption (and tacit admission) is that we have people in custody despite not being able to prove that they’re actually terrorists, connected to terrorism or even able to locate Israel on a map of the world.  The worry is that through some clever lawyer pointing this out, the non-terrorist (who actually is a terrorist, because, hey, he was in prison!) will be released onto our city streets, free to wander this alien land and eventually inspire some Neo-Nazis to stop their Eighty-Eight Quilts for Eighty-Eight Aryans craft fair and go try to blow something up.

The end goal of the closing of Gitmo should be that we arrest, try and punish terrorists in a way that ensures they are not only kept from harming others, but are also thoroughly and humanely interrogated for any other information they have.  If and when we arrest someone who’s not actually a terrorist, they are again treated in a way that is as human as possible so that they don’t go back to their home countries and start pursuing a radicalized path, which is where a not-insubstantial number of “recidivist” terrorists come from in the first place.  The problem with the current system is that it treats anyone who is accused of terrorist activity as if they’ve already been tried and convicted of that activity just by virtue of accusation. 

There’s the obvious question of whether McConnell will be asking these questions when any of the right-wing domestic terrorists of the past fortnight or so go on trial, but not only do we know the answer to that, we’ve also all accepted it as an internalized risk of the justice system.  At least for white people.

 

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 08:58 AM • (18) Comments

This has gone from absurd to insane in a short while.  First, there was the assertion that our Justice Department couldn’t find anyone who could file a competent response to a Habeas petition from Osama bin Laden.  Then it went to they’re all terrorists who were too dangerous for courtrooms.  Then two-thirds of them were released during the Bush Administration.  And now that same justice system that convicted terrorists in the past is unable to hold trials today.  Plus the suspects, if they aren’t convicted, get US citizenship and a bus pass.

I find the Senator less than convincing in his assertions.

Comment #1: 3letterjon  on  06/11  at  10:02 AM

You know what, if some of them really are not guilty, and found to be by a jury, who says they have necessarily turned into terrorists just because they were in a horrible prison?

How many of our soldiers who were held by the North Vietnamese became anti-Vietnamese terrorists after they were released? How many Japanese Americans became terrorists after they were interned in the 1940s?

Comment #2: Ben D.  on  06/11  at  10:10 AM

The Middle-Eastern Terrorist (dun dun dun…!) has been built up into such a boogyman that many Americans can no longer see people in that category (whether they actually belong there or not) as actual human beings.

I’ve jokingly made the comparison before, but for some people it really does seem like they believe Terrorists! to be like X-Men, with strengths and abilities far beyond those of mere mortals.  So it becomes very easy to think irrationally about them.

And then a cynical and evil old fuck like McConnell comes along, more interested in harming the Democrats than he is protecting America, and its easy for him (and many of the other Republicans) to use this disconnect from reality for their own purposes by building a straw terrorist.

After nearly 8-years of constant repetition about the Evils of Terrorists and Terrorism, which still remains a political tactic and not a religion - as Dr. Tiller’s killer well knows, the threat has been blown so far out of proportion it’s hard to see how we’ll be able to treat these prisoners in any rational way for the foreseeable future.

It’s funny, I just finished reading The Count of Monte Cristo, about a man unjustly sentenced for a crime he did not commit, and how he spends years plotting his righteous revenge on those who wronged him.  It’s a classic tale of heroism in the face of extreme adversity.

It’s all cool until you realize that WE have been doing that to others, who may very well be the heroes in this drama, while we are the villains.

But it always seems like the rules are different for the lily-white Europeanoids than for everyone else…

Comment #3: MikeEss  on  06/11  at  10:10 AM

These are clearly “Bad Men” or Bush wouldn’t have locked them up in the first place.

But, we’re dealing with a weaselly weak-kneed terrorist sympathetic Obama justice department.  So we must conclude that they’ll all get off on technicalities.

The end result is obvious.  Hardened, dangerous terrorists walking out of US jails and into American cities.  I mean, did you see what happened when they let Danny Ocean out of jail in Ocean’s Eleven?  He went on to commit the biggest casino robbery in history!  Can you even begin to imagine what horrible things a bunch of terrorists would do?

Comment #4: Zifnab  on  06/11  at  10:53 AM

McConnell’s presumption (and tacit admission) is that we have people in custody despite not being able to prove that they’re actually terrorists, connected to terrorism or even able to locate Israel on a map of the world.

Apparently McConnell’s America is an Evil Empire that needs not respect basic human rights recognized since the 1300s.  The Government has no checks and needs not answer to basic humanity.

If a prisoner is found to be not guilty—YOU FUCKING RELEASE HIM.  The government has no right to imprison innocent people indefinitely.

You say imprisoning and torturing innocent people has turned them into terrorists?  Well then, perhaps WE SHOULDN’T BE TORTURING INNOCENT PEOPLE.  We determine innocense through a trial—>we need proof before the government should be allowed—yes allowed—to curtail any right.

When innocent men are released from Death Row, an unfortunately often occurance here in Illinois, they receive rather large settlements.

If we have imprisoned and tortured innocent men, then they deserve the same fate.  An apology, repatriation to their homeland, and a large settlement—>especially large since WE FUCKING TORTURED THEM.

Of course, proving that these men are terrorists will be almost impossible since the authorities erased the interrogation tapes.  Plus, tortured confessions aren’t really admissable.  This is why the war-mongers just want to lock these men up forever somewhere where no one can talk to them…they fucked up so bad they not only can’t prove these men did anything wrong, but they aren’t even sure of their identities.

Either we act like a civilized country, give these men honest trials, and let the chips fall where they may—or we should just execute them.

I’m serious.  If all we are going to do is continue to torture them, then why not simply kill them and be done with it.  It’s a crime against humanity, but so is holding them indefinitely if they can’t be proven guilty of a crime.

C’mon, you know that’s what McConnell’s America really wants to do.  They just try to scare us about “escaped terrorists” and a need to imprison indefinitely as a compromise.

Comment #5: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/11  at  11:32 AM

There is one real risk here that McConnell refuses to confront: that our methods of “interrogation” have rendered much of the “evidence” unusable in a civilian court of law.  They would be considered to be illegally obtained evidence.

In other words, if they were guilty and we had good evidence, it wouldn’t matter.  If we thought they might be guilty and then obtained confessions illegally, guess what?  Somebody bad could go free and it would be the governments fault.

Which is EXACTLY as the founders intended - to keep the government from pulling shit on people who were not liked, they set up a system of negative incentives for bullshit.

Comment #6: Ms Kate  on  06/11  at  11:33 AM

Screw it.  Why don’t we just set up Stalinist show trials where we trot the “terrorists” out to read admissions of guilt prepared for them in advance by their interrogators?

George Orwell wasn’t wrong - he just got the date wrong by a couple of decades.

Comment #7: tannenburg  on  06/11  at  11:38 AM

“Which is EXACTLY as the founders intended - to keep the government from pulling shit on people who were not liked, they set up a system of negative incentives for bullshit.”

But, but, but, the Founding Fathers couldn’t have known just how EVIL and DANGEROUS terrorists are and how they pose an EXISTENTIAL THREAT to LIBERTY and FREEDOM!  Otherwise they would have made sure we could just throw out all that Habeas stuff, and OK’ed illegal arrests, and illegal searches, and all the rest of that panty-waisted liberal “empathy” crap that somehow snuck into the Constitution.

That’s why it’s so important for Brave Men of Action to discard all those “protections” and just treat people we don’t like the same way others have treated them for millenia:  Arrest them, lock them up in some hell hole, and either let them die there or find some bogus reason to kill them.

And in the end, it proves we’re no better than any of the other corrupt and evil countries the world has known.  American Exceptionalism?  Exposed for the sham it is and always was…

Comment #8: MikeEss  on  06/11  at  11:47 AM

Why, Mike, isn’t that argument about how the Founding Fathers (ahem) couldn’t have known about EVIL TERRORISTS (because, y’know, they just had a whole effing foreign army camped in their country when they set up their government) a serious challenge to the originalist interpretation of the constitution? It’s not our job to decide how they would have decided things under other circumstances, or what the words they wrote mean in a new context. Instead, we should just issue every property-owning adult white male in the country a flintlock and let them pot at the terrorists from behind a tree…

Comment #9: paul  on  06/11  at  12:00 PM

Ms. Kate- EXACTLY. They know they can’t get an honest conviction at this point, so they don’t want to bring any of these “terrorists” to trial. Easier to hold indefinitely that admit their mistakes. But aren’t they the ones always preaching about actions and consequences? Ah, pot, meet kettle.

Comment #10: Awkward  on  06/11  at  12:50 PM

“This has gone from absurd to insane in a short while.”

Or maybe from insane to absurd. I’m not sure. Still sitting in disbelief that anyone pays any attention to an asshole like McConnell.

Comment #11: Mark  on  06/11  at  01:02 PM

The other risk that nobody seems to want to address is that we managed to kidnap and torture a bunch of innocent people, some of whom are surely going to want revenge for that.  What the hell do you do with a guy who was perfectly content to live his life, until you randomly brutalized him, and now he wants to kill you?

Comment #12: libdevil  on  06/11  at  01:51 PM

Instead, we should just issue every property-owning adult white male in the country a flintlock and let them pot at the terrorists from behind a tree…

It’s a good thing the evil British didn’t kidnap the colonials from their beds and hold them for years, torturing and denying them any legal rights, isn’t it?  You would have so totally lost if the Brits had shown their resolve in this fashion…

Comment #13: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/11  at  02:23 PM

libdevil—buy him off.

Comment #14: Punditus Maximus  on  06/11  at  02:25 PM

The other risk that nobody seems to want to address is that we managed to kidnap and torture a bunch of innocent people, some of whom are surely going to want revenge for that.  What the hell do you do with a guy who was perfectly content to live his life, until you randomly brutalized him, and now he wants to kill you?

I believe Caren said it best:

When innocent men are released from Death Row, an unfortunately often occurance here in Illinois, they receive rather large settlements.

If we have imprisoned and tortured innocent men, then they deserve the same fate.  An apology, repatriation to their homeland, and a large settlement—>especially large since WE FUCKING TORTURED THEM.

It’s all you can do.  And then hope like hell they don’t decide to exact some sweet revenge on their oppressors.

Comment #15: DTG in STL  on  06/11  at  04:48 PM

You know these assholes will scream holy hell if Obama apologises to “terrorists”...

Comment #16: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/11  at  06:25 PM

I was stunned last night when Keith or Rachel had a clip of a Republican congressman calmly explaining that the important thing about Gitmo, compared to other prisons, is that if people there are found not guilty, we can still keep them locked up. I mean, I’m well aware that the entire purpose of the place was to be outside the rule of law, but I didn’t know wingnuts were openly admitting it.

Comment #17: Redshift  on  06/11  at  06:34 PM

at the risk of Godwining myself,
The other risk that nobody seems to want to address is that we managed to kidnap and torture a bunch of innocent people, some of whom are surely going to want revenge for that.  What the hell do you do with a guy who was perfectly content to live his life, until you randomly brutalized him, and now he wants to kill you?

Well gee, what the hell did they do with concentration camp victims after WWII? Put them in indefinite detention because they might have turned into vengeful radicals?

Comment #18: windy  on  06/13  at  07:12 AM

windy, on that point, it’s interesting to note that my grandfather, who was a civilian guest of the Japanese Imperial Army in Shanghai, China, because he was an American citizen, afterwards would say that the whole country of Japan should’ve been wiped out after the war, based on how he and his family was treated by the JIA in the concentration camp.

Comment #19: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/13  at  10:47 AM
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