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Next entry: Because we can, that’s why: Introducing Pandagoal Previous entry: Focus on the Family falls on hard times…can anyone spare a dime, er, $6 million?

Let’s not be Polllyannaish about this

Now, I’ve written my share of posts defending Texas from overeager Yankee liberals who want to write the state off completely.  I have my reasons: Texas has a progressive history, Texas has some of the more interesting cities in the country, and Texas is one of the most racially diverse states in the country (something that could be a plus if anyone was just willing to harness that diversity).  But this article by Michael Lind defending Southern whites from the charge—-in light of polling data that shows that the majority of Southern whites believe that Obama isn’t a natural-born citizen—-of being a bunch of hate-filled racists?  He’s just going too far.  And if he really is a white man from Texas as he claims, he’s either lived ensconced in Hyde Park in Austin his whole life, or he’s being intellectually dishonest, because if you’re a white person living in Texas very long, you soon discover that most white Southerners are hate-filled racists.  And I use “hate-filled” for a reason, because most white people—-most people in general, which I’ll get back to—-have to contend with a lifetime of vicious stereotypes worming into your brain, and so you are often a condescending or unintentional racist.  But that’s not what I’m talking about.  Those white people, in which I include myself, are well-meaning, believe racism is wrong, and often try really hard to overcome it.  I’m talking about rolling in the mud, oinking, proud-to-be-racist racists. 

Believe me, I’ve lived my whole life trying like hell to weasel out of conversations with people who get that gleam of pseudo-naughtiness in their eye before they drop some horrible stinking racist comment, and then puff up with the pride that comes from believing you’re superior for what is essentially an arbitrary reason.  Name a racial slur, and I’ve heard a white person use it with malice.  They assume you want to hear it, because you’re white.  Or they know you’re a liberal, and they want to push your buttons.  When dealing with the redneckeria, few conversations are safe from racist comments.  I’ve even had a card game go sour because a player insisted on making racist jokes about the cards, due to the fact that they do come in different colors.  Oh, racists all claim not to be racist, even if they find inventive new slurs to call black people or stick to the old ones like “wetbacks” to describe Mexican immigrants. It’s all in fun!  Get a sense of humor!  But the reaction that you’re seeing at these town halls, or the very existence of the birther conspiracy theory, proves otherwise.  They very well fucking mean it. 

As a Southern white who puts myself in the good guy column, I can relate to getting your hackles up when some liberal bloggers lump all Southern whites together.  I’ve made similar lists to the one Lind makes: Molly Ivins! Ann and Cecile Richards! Jim Hightower! Lyndon B. Johnson! (Okay, these are all Texans.  What can I say? We have the mojo.)  But Lind pulls a sleight of hand that I find intellectually dishonest:

I grew up in Texas, which gave our nation champions of the New Deal and civil rights like Maury Maverick, Ralph Yarborough, Lyndon Johnson, Henry Gonzalez, Barbara Jordan, Lloyd Doggett and Frances “Sissy” Farenthold, who argued Roe v. Wade.

Or, Sarah Weddington, who argued Roe v. Wade, but I’ll let that one pass.  Do you see a problem with marshaling a list like this in a specific defense of white Texans?  How about the fact that Henry Gonzalez is Hispanic and Barbara Jordan was black? 

Lind then proceeds to spend the rest of the article lashing out at what he assumes are liberal taboos, such as criticizing white women, blacks, or Latinos for having similarly backwards opinions like those of Southern white men.  For someone who is preaching about creating bridges with others, he’s not being very politic.  There’s a great deal of wisdom in the idea of tending your own garden, and liberal Southern whites have a duty, first and foremost, to resist and speak out against other Southern whites who are sexist, racist assholes.  But Lind is doing the opposite here, lashing out at anyone who isn’t a Southern white man.  First, you have black people.

Oh, those dumb white Southerners! No other group in American society could possibly believe in preposterous conspiracy theories. Well, maybe one other group, the most reliably Democratic demographic in the whole U.S. electorate. A 2005 study by RAND and Oregon State University showed that a majority of blacks believed that a cure for AIDS was being withheld from the poor; that nearly half believed that AIDS was man-made, with a quarter believing that it was created in a U.S. government laboratory and 12 percent naming the CIA as its source. Black paranoia about AIDS is understandable, given the Tuskegee experiments. Even so, the theory that AIDS was created by the CIA to commit genocide against black people is wackier than the craziest Birther conspiracy theories.

No, it’s actually not.  It’s not that big a leap, if you assume that federal intelligence agencies have historically had it out for black people, which there’s piles of evidence to show that they have. Remember, the FBI tried to blackmail Martin Luther King Jr. into committing suicide, and that’s not a conspiracy theory. 

But I’ve written about conspiracy theories before, and while spreading one is always wrong (even if done so unintentionally), the content of different conspiracy theories tells you a lot about the believers’ values and fears.  People who believe the CIA created AIDS are just like 9/11 Truthers—-they turned a case of criminal neglect into a conspiracy theory of active malice.  But the birther conspiracy theory is about transmitting the idea that non-white Americans will never be “real” Americans.  The levels of cruelty here differ dramatically. 

But wait! There’s more!  Lind thinks liberals are hypocrites about women, too.

By this test, it appears that there are a lot of angry white women and that they have been angry for decades. In 2008 white women preferred John McCain to Barack Obama by 53-47 (compare white men, 57-41). They backed George W. Bush in 2004 by 55-44 percent and in 2000 by a narrow 49-48 percent. A majority of white women in 1996 split their votes among Dole (43) and Perot (8), giving Clinton only a minority of their vote at 48 percent. In 1992 white women were even more anti-Clinton, giving Bush (41 percent) and Perot (18 percent) in combination a majority. White women gave the first Bush 56 percent of their vote in 1988, and they gave Reagan 62 percent in 1984 and 52 percent in 1980. They preferred Ford to Carter, 52-36. I could go on, but you get the picture. Clearly, to judge from their unwillingness to support Democratic presidential candidates since the 1960s, most white women, like most white men, are evil, hate-filled racist monsters.

I don’t think anyone’s disputing that, actually.  Just because someone’s a woman doesn’t mean you’re immune to racial prejudice. Or sexism or homophobia, for that matter.  Self-hating misogyny is epic in its proportions.  Strawman.  Feminists never said women weren’t capable of being bastards.

Lind then humps the “blacks and Latinos hate gays just as much as white Southerners” argument, and tosses in some Latino opposition to abortion rights on top of that.  I won’t bother you with more quoting—-you can read the whole article.  Again, the problem here is that Lind’s priorities are all out of whack, if he’s defending white Southerners and lashing out at non-white people with conservative views, who he thinks Democrats tip-toe around because they vote Democratic.  First of all, who says that they do?  I see plenty of criticism of homophobia in black communities from our own Pam Spaulding, for instance.  Maybe if Lind read a more diverse group of writers, he’d see the criticism he’s seeking.  But he’s also obscuring the issue of sexism and homophobia.  As Pam’s pointed out before, the common denominator is religion, and by focusing strictly on race, the real predictors of someone’s opinion on gay rights—-one’s allegiance to a conservative church—-is being obscured.  That’s why the Mormon church because the focus of so much outrage.  Because it was a stand-in for all churches that use homophobic scare tactics to control their congregations.  And a fairly picked one at that, because they spent so much damn money on Prop 8. 

Again, I have to point out that we need to tend our own gardens, not just because it’s more politic, but because it’s more effective.  That’s why I was especially irritated to read this:

Here’s how I see it. Liberals should respect and promote the interests of working Americans of all races and regions, including those who despise liberals. They are erring neighbors to be won over, not cretins to be mocked.

These aren’t mutually exclusive goals, for one thing.  Just because I mock some dumb redneck whose racism will cause him to prefer being unemployed and uninsured over voting for progressive politicians doesn’t mean that I think he should be excluded from universal health care, should it pass.  I have to laugh at Lind’s idea that they’re erring neighbors to be won over.  Seriously, we’ve been trying for decades.  If you’ve lived in Texas, you’ll know that the number one quality of your average rolling-in-hate racist is that they are absolutely immovable on their opinions.  They may not like being mocked behind their backs or on the blogs, but you know what they really, really, really, really hate?  When someone actually tries to treat them like an erring neighbor to be won over, someone whose racism needs to be confronted and discussed.  They don’t want to have that discussion.  They know they’re being assholes.  They don’t care.  Again, I’m not talking about all white people or anything like that.  I’m talking about the people who believe this birther shit. 

The best we can hope for is their children grow up ashamed of their parents’ overt racism, and frankly, I see mockery as a tool in the box of achieving that goal.  So is teaching a better version of history and exposing young people to diverse people and kinds of thought. Nothing is bulletproof, of course, and we have to remember that when we exhaust ourselves trying to fix the problem of white racism in the South, only to have small dividends returned.  But such a complex problem really can only be addressed by throwing everything and the kitchen sink at it, knowing that different strategies reach different people, and mockery is one of those tools.

Anyway, mockery is its own reward sometimes.  Since I live in a city that’s hemmed in on all sides with Bible-thumping white conservative nonsense, then I reserve the right to fight back with jokes.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:19 AM • (104) Comments

Just because I mock some dumb redneck whose racism will cause him to prefer being unemployed and uninsured over voting for progressive politicians doesn’t mean that I think he should be excluded from universal health care, should it pass.

This is what KILLS ME.  The Republicans are out to screw over the working and middle class.  They come out and SAY it—Corporations Rule!—and people somehow still believe they have their best interests at heart. 

My husband likes to say “there are two kinds of Republicans, rich people and suckers.”  Maybe there are three:  “Rich people, suckers, and those who are so racist they’ll voluntarily keep eating dirt rather than see a minority get ahead.”

Comment #1: Siobhan  on  08/11  at  10:43 AM

Here in Chicago, the racism I have encountered has always been secretive, guarded, even patient. But from what I’ve seen it’s still fairly widespread. I haven’t had much experience with the balls-out type of racism that you describe, and admire you for dealing with it. I would imagine that its pretty unpleasant.

Comment #2: atheist  on  08/11  at  11:09 AM

Again, I have to point out that we need to tend our own gardens, not just because it’s more politic, but because it’s more effective.

This is also a good response to the silly WHY DON’T LIBERALS CRITICIZE THE MISOGYNY IN ISLAM??? HMMM??

Because most of us aren’t from a Muslim background. Those that are, do.

Comment #3: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  11:09 AM

Here in Chicago, the racism I have encountered has always been secretive, guarded, even patient.

Northern racism is a very different kind of racism from Southern racism.

Comment #4: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  11:10 AM

I’d have to argue with that “most” characterization. Based on my own experience, I’d say a slim majority of white Texans aren’t racist, it’s only maybe 45% or so that are.

Comment #5: Mike Crichton  on  08/11  at  11:13 AM

Preach it, Sister!  As a native Okie (long self exiled), I must give you a big amen on this.  I have heard this kind of argument many times before and it usually comes from someone who is in fact a racist, but has the self awareness to know that it is not socially acceptable to be one.

I teach an upper division class on race and ethnicity and my students, mostly anthropology majors, are always astounded (and horrified) by what they learn.  There are always some who cannot deal with the reality of racism and keep trying to dodge the issues, but for most they come away with a better understanding of the issues and the nature of the problems.  You really can educate the unaware and change them toward the better.

Comment #6: DrDick  on  08/11  at  11:15 AM

Here’s how I see it. Liberals should respect and promote the interests of working Americans of all races and regions, including those who despise liberals. They are erring neighbors to be won over, not cretins to be mocked.

It’s a variation on the “Liberals are so RUUUUUUUUUDE!!!!!!” theme that I often encounter. My response is the same as always: politeness is a good thing, but at the same time one has to view people clearly & honestly. I also find it odd that these conservatives are allowed to despise me, but I’m not allowed to mock them. If we’re going to be worried about hurt feelings, what about the liberals’ hurt feelings?

Comment #7: atheist  on  08/11  at  11:16 AM

Someone on another blog said that the problem with the folks you describe is their attitude of “I’ll live in mud as long as the *blacks* live in shit.” That pretty much sums it up.

I do think you’re right about mockery. There’s a reason why Jon Stewart is the most trusted “newsman” in America and why his audience continues to grow younger and younger.

Comment #8: DC Fem  on  08/11  at  11:18 AM

I also find it odd that these conservatives are allowed to despise me, but I’m not allowed to mock them.

Perhaps they’d understand it better if we referred to it as ‘mock the sin, love the sinner’.

Comment #9: Half Ass Saint  on  08/11  at  11:21 AM

Atheist and Ben D. -

I spent 12 years in Chicago and frankly it is one of the most overtly racist places I have ever been.  I grew up in Oklahoma in the 50s and 60s under Jim Crow and segregation, so that is saying something.  By the time I left Oklahoma for Chicago in the late 80s, even the rednecks were a bit restrained about expressing their racism in the former.  I heard much more overtly racist comments from white professionals in Chicago than I did from Okie rednecks.  It may have changed since then, but the statistics don’t suggest that is the case.

There really is a difference between northern and southern racism, however.  In the South it was (I think old school KKK racism is making a resurgence these days) much more systemic and widely accepted, but in a way less personal.  You would routinely here how bad “those people” were, but the people of color they actually knew were different and not really like that.  There seemed to be an ability to at least get along with people of color that they had to interact with.  In Chicago it seemed much more intense and personal and applied equally to all people of color.

Comment #10: DrDick  on  08/11  at  11:25 AM

This sort of “he did it too so it’s ok” argument didn’t even work when I was a kid. Racism isn’t confined to the south, and there are a lot of stereotypes about the south from us northerners, but that doesn’t make southern racism any better or less deserving of criticism.

Comment #11: MaxPolun  on  08/11  at  11:26 AM

There really is a difference between northern and southern racism, however.  In the South it was (I think old school KKK racism is making a resurgence these days) much more systemic and widely accepted, but in a way less personal.  You would routinely here how bad “those people” were, but the people of color they actually knew were different and not really like that.  There seemed to be an ability to at least get along with people of color that they had to interact with.

This is exactly right. I live in Virginia but my Mom’s side of the family is from the Philly suburbs, and this perfectly describes the kind of racism in VA vs. racism in Philly. I think it has to do with the fact that there are just larger numbers of blacks in southern states, period, and post-segregation whites have to interact with them in daily life. Even the suburbs around southern cities are at least 25% black, and the rural areas (at least outside of Appalachia) are 30-50% black usually.

In the north, once you’re outside of the central cities and inner suburbs, you don’t see many black people.

Comment #12: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  11:30 AM

Ex., look at this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County-1396x955.png

All the purple areas are counties where blacks are the biggest ethnic group. And they’re almost all in the South, with the exception the central areas of the northern cities.

Comment #13: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  11:34 AM

In the north, once you’re outside of the central cities and inner suburbs, you don’t see many black people.

In the Chicago Metro area, certain outer suburbs are getting to be integrated or even majority black, as well. Middle class blacks have been leaving the inner city to take advantage of the better schools and better security, and stay integrated with the whites. For those Pandagonians in the Chicago Metro area, I’m specifically talking about Bolingbrook & Lisle, that area of western suburbs. Last time I was out there, the place appeared to be more integrated than Chicago itself, or even Oak Park/Evanston.

Comment #14: atheist  on  08/11  at  11:40 AM

Middle class blacks are just as enterprising as whites, and perhaps more enterprising, since it tends to their physical security that is most threatened. They have more to lose.

Comment #15: atheist  on  08/11  at  11:43 AM

While I agree there are differences between virulent Southern racists and virulent Northern racists, in the end I think this is like pointing out that there is a difference between Cantonese and Szechuan Chinese food.  True, but not particularly important except to someone trying to figure out which flavor they prefer.

Comment #16: Felix Culpa  on  08/11  at  11:43 AM

atheist -

Here’s how I see it. Liberals should respect and promote the interests of working Americans of all races and regions, including those who despise liberals.

And if those Americans aren’t working, all bets are off?

I’m not sure why, but when somebody screams that, bar none, all white guys suck, being a white guy, I get defensive.

No, all black people should not shut up about white racists until that one black guy on the corner of 63rd and Cottage Grove stops pre-judging white people. And all women shouldn’t shut up about sexism until Anita Bryant apologizes to the world.

But here’s a good tip going forward: Attack actual racist actions and speech, not white guys. Or black guys. Or arab women. Or whatever.

And this might be a little “out of the box” for some of you, but not agreeing with every single thing you write isn’t racist, either.

Comment #17: I Heart Puppies  on  08/11  at  11:43 AM

Felix, I think you have to take a bit of a different approach in addressing each type, that’s all.

Comment #18: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  11:44 AM

Oops, sorry atheist. That was Lind’s blockquote.

Comment #19: I Heart Puppies  on  08/11  at  11:45 AM

OK, JohnGor0, but who was saying all white guys suck? I must have missed it.

Comment #20: atheist  on  08/11  at  11:45 AM

Sorry, JohnGor0, maybe I don’t understand what you’re getting at.

Comment #21: atheist  on  08/11  at  11:46 AM

atheist - It’s got nothing to do with “Southern white men”. It’s racism, which alot of southern white men partake in. One may assume, upon meeting a southern white man, that he might harbor alot of racist notions, but that would be a generalization.

Which, I believe is what Lind was clumsily trying to convey, while burning up inside to keep himself from screaming “Al Sharpton! Al Sharpton!”

Sorry, my post was a little disjointed. I cut and pasted alot, and should have just blown it up and started over.

Comment #22: I Heart Puppies  on  08/11  at  11:52 AM

OK I get what you mean now.

Comment #23: atheist  on  08/11  at  11:53 AM

Ben D.: On the contrary, I think each of those types takes a (somewhat) different approach in addressing us.  Ideally, we would respond to both in the same way.

Comment #24: Felix Culpa  on  08/11  at  11:54 AM

I tend to divide it between open racists and closet racists, myself. I generally link open racism with the south simply for the fact that even up north, your open racist is likely to display the Battle Flag of the Confederacy (on their pick-up, on their house, whatev)—signifying a allegiance to “the south” rather than to “the north.” Your closet racist is much more likely to say something like “now don’t get me wrong, I’m not a racist but _______” (insert incredibly racist statement here).

I think that open vs. closeted racism has a lot more to do with class up here: it’s tribalism—if you identify as a redneck (poor and oppressed) then it’s a point of pride for you, because xenophobia and racism are an important part of redneck identity up here. And since poor people are openly racist, people who do not identify as poor try to differentiate themselves from the low-class types by not appearing to be racist. It’s still there, of course, but we go through amazing contortions to try to make it not about racism, and more about the natural differences in the races (or overwhelming patterns of behavior based on race) and how those differences fill us with anxiety. But it’s not racism, because I drive a Subaru!

Comment #25: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/11  at  11:57 AM

It’s a variation on the “Liberals are so RUUUUUUUUUDE!!!!!!” theme that I often encounter… I also find it odd that these conservatives are allowed to despise me, but I’m not allowed to mock them. If we’re going to be worried about hurt feelings, what about the liberals’ hurt feelings?

This is the area where I feel liberals are more truly “feminized” in a negative way, even more than in issues of war & peace, etc.  There’s a sort of vicious circle in which liberals are always held to the highest standards, either to bar them from gaining power or to let their opposition off the hook (or both), that’s essentially what women face in almost every sphere of our lives.  Always be understanding and temperate and empathetic—and most of all, correct on every. single. point.—because otherwise your character, abilities, and motivations will be sliced to shreds.  It’s never enough to be just right on the issues, even when they benefit others; we have to refrain from ever offending anyone, can never dream of hitting back in self-defense, and if we can’t gently persuade people to accept our ideas we’ve failed on every level.  There’s no way to win because every play we make will be a foul.

Maybe Lakoff, Westen, et al, mention this, but I don’t remember it.  And framing the political debate as female/nurturing vs. male/authoritarian is pointless unless we acknowledge that one side is burdened with cultural contempt no matter what.

Comment #26: latts  on  08/11  at  11:57 AM

I’m not sure why, but when somebody screams that, bar none, all white guys suck, being a white guy, I get defensive.

I scrolled up a third time just to try to find where atheist said that, and I didn’t find it. Maybe you’re getting defensive not because all white guys suck, but because you suck. Just sayin’.

Comment #27: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  08/11  at  11:58 AM

Yeah, I agree. I don’t like the “all Texans suck” meme, but it’s definitely true that I’ve seen way more overt racism there than I have up in Seattle.  And it is often of the shameless, “I know I’m not supposed to say it, but I’m going to anyways, and even if you call me on it, I’m going to continue thinking these shitty things” type. Of course, I was in grade school and junior high there, and people just generally pick on each other more in that age range…

In my experience, there are a lot of white southerners who are just filled with a sense of superiority based solely on their color—and they’ll say it.  But the upshot is that the people who don’t hold those festering views, a lot of times have actively rejected it.  Because you’re forced to confront racism, you can’t just pretend it doesn’t exist, so you have to explicitly reject some of the views that may be lurking quietly, unexamined in people here in Seattle. Here, I get a lot of the “that neighborhood isn’t safe,” when it’s basically the black or minority neighborhoods and crime statistics are pretty much the same as everywhere else.  But since they vote democratic and don’t say anything obviously racist, they don’t feel like they have to interrogate their views.

Comment #28: t-ster  on  08/11  at  12:08 PM

I grew up on the North Shore (John Hughes country) and there literally was not one black family in our neighborhood until I was 16 years old.  Not a single one.

I think that open vs. closeted racism has a lot more to do with class up here: it’s tribalism—if you identify as a redneck (poor and oppressed) then it’s a point of pride for you, because xenophobia and racism are an important part of redneck identity up here.

It’s interesting that you say that, because we have an actual class divide in my family:  my (step)mother literally grew up in a trailer park and she and her three sons were working-class at best until she met and married my dad.  Two of my brothers stayed working-class and I do hear them say pretty overtly racist things sometimes (usually only when they’re trying to bug me since they know I don’t like it).  And my mom will come out with some pretty astounding “I’m not racist, but ...” declarations.  My dad and (biological) brother almost never say anything overt.  (Well, not until my dad started listening to Rush fucking Limbaugh and watching nothing but Fox News every goddamned day.)

Comment #29: Mnemosyne  on  08/11  at  12:12 PM

“Your closet racist is much more likely to say something like “now don’t get me wrong, I’m not a racist but _______” (insert incredibly racist statement here).”

My dad is like this, punctuated by occasional outbursts of “open racism” that usually get quickly slapped down by one of us, especially my 18-year old daughter.  I’ve fought my whole life to keep that creeping racism from seeping in to my soul (not that I’ve been 100% successful — we’ve all got our moments).

My experience with racism and racists (as a white guy hearing it from other whites, Hispanics, Asians, etc.) has very seldom been about explicit, up front, no-good-reason-for-it hate, but is almost always presented as some universal “truth” that comes from “experience”, and so is couched as some sort of “honest” recognition of “reality”, that all “good” people could agree with, and not just good old-fashioned prejudice.

Sometimes I wish I could just knock some sense into people…

Comment #30: MikeEss  on  08/11  at  12:18 PM

Here in Chicago, the racism I have encountered has always been secretive, guarded, even patient.

I’ve grown up here in Chicago, and you can definitely find the balls out kind in the right places.

Comment #31: typist  on  08/11  at  12:19 PM

If your in the south and feel the need to get under a racist’s skin, explain to them that you are an Irish-Catholic and as far as you understand, protestants are godless heretics, talk about Apostolistic succession etc, end with the “upon this rock I build my church” from the messiah’s own lips. For extra credit toss in how the Scots-Irish are friendless weasels shipped to Eire by the English king to maintain a state of terror. Then slowly back out of the room.

Comment #32: The Pale Scot  on  08/11  at  12:21 PM

This sort of conversation is interesting, because I see this trajectory in my own family.  My father went from being a JFK-voting civil-rights-supporting Democrat to someone who thinks Rush Limbaugh might be just a bit too moderate for his tastes.  Needless to say, any conversations where politics peeks in get a bit strained.  He’s the sort mentioned above who categorizes “all X are Y” but “some of his best friends are X.”  (Godwin Alert) It’s sort of like how members of the Nazi Party hated all Jews except for their “pet” Jew grocer or doctor.

In his case I think it’s upbringing winning over education (he’s a MD.)  His mother and father were good old-fashioned Midwestern children of immigrants and were racists of the early 20th-Century working-class school.  I distinctly remember my grandmother saying that mixed marriages were bad because “every race has its own unique beauty which shouldn’t be ruined.”

Comment #33: tannenburg  on  08/11  at  12:22 PM

but the people of color they actually knew were different and not really like that.

This is actually a phenomenon of substantial historical standing. My great-aunt has in her possession a letter written by an ancestor who lived shortly after the Civil War in which he is at pains to note that he grew up playing with the sharecroppers’ children and while he knows black people are unclean, rowdy, and slow (because that’s what he’s been told) these particular black people were good friends.

Possibly this is linked to the psychological device by which people can have gay relatives and oppose gay marriage, or possibly, use county health services but believe the government is out to murder Sarah Palin’s baby. I don’t know if those beliefs are also regional, mind, but in the North it seems a lot more acceptable to hate people you know (on any level) and in the South bless their hearts, it’s just those other (group in question) that bother you.

Felix Culpa, I think that this is important because it’s fairly common, in my experience, for people not from the South to assert that only Southern-style racism is Real Racism and therefore they aren’t racist, and some really garbled Southern history gets used to justify all kinds of crap all over the internet. I had someone try to tell me how nice they thought it was that there were Black-only colleges in the South, for instance, in the middle of an argument about gay marriage. This person was in high school, and a US citizen.

Understanding what the fuck southern racists are on about and how our history is different from other places with other history is kind of central to understanding racism, basically. Which is why I try to confront discussions of Southern racism head-on with the fact that we’re situated in the middle of a long history that informs how we behave all over the place.

Comment #34: purpleshoes  on  08/11  at  12:24 PM

though Amanda, possibly Texas is less tasteful and more upfront about bigotry than North Carolina. Y’all seem more straight-up about a lot of things, honestly.

Comment #35: purpleshoes  on  08/11  at  12:25 PM

On the other hand I do think Chicago has changed a LOT in just twenty years. This isn’t the same city it was when I was a little kid, with all of the whites ready to lynch Harold Washington. 2004, the year of Obama’s rise here, was definitely a repudiation to 1983.

Comment #36: typist  on  08/11  at  12:27 PM

What kills me, is that he references the 28%ers who believe Obama is Kenyan and ineligible for President plus the extra 30%ers who don’t believe it, but still think there might be something to it, so they need more information. 

This is teh crazy.  Obama has released his birth certificate, or at least the modern equivalent.  Hawai’i itself, through its Governor, has affirmed that he was born there.  CONGRESS affirmed in its motion to honor Hawai’i that Obama was born there.

The are only a few possible defenses for people who are Birthers: they are stupid/ignorant and just raving about something they have done zero research on.  They are racist fucks who will clamber onto any possibility that Obama isn’t really the President, since, you know, he’s a n*gger.  They are lying, simply trying to incite other simpletons and crazies to violence.

There are such things as facts.  When a bunch of people refuse to acknowlege them, calling them “crazy” is CHARITABLE.

It’s a fact that the Birthers are congregated in the South.  Calling the South crazy, while perhaps unchartibly expansive, is not unreasonable.  A majority of these people are denying reality—whether out of fear, hatred, or a desire to harness that fear and hatred is irrelevent.  They have abandoned reality, and that’s crazy.

Comment #37: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/11  at  12:27 PM

My experience with racism and racists (as a white guy hearing it from other whites, Hispanics, Asians, etc.) has very seldom been about explicit, up front, no-good-reason-for-it hate, but is almost always presented as some universal “truth” that comes from “experience”, and so is couched as some sort of “honest” recognition of “reality”, that all “good” people could agree with, and not just good old-fashioned prejudice.

Sometimes I wish I could just knock some sense into people…

That’s my general experience too, at least in the last 20 years or so, and I think it’s mostly due to the crowd I tend to come in contact with—the kind of people who are aware enough that being explicitly racist can have real world implications and so couch it in the way you describe so as not to suffer public shame. This is why, I think, overt racism can be linked closely with economic class—if you don’t have much to lose and no real prospects of the situation getting better, then there’s no reason to hide how you feel. Even in the Klan, not everyone covered their faces (especially in recent years)—it was mostly the ones who couldn’t afford to be linked publicly who hid their identities.

Comment #38: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  08/11  at  12:27 PM

I think southern racists don’t care how close black people are to them* as long as they don’t get into positions of power, that they “know their place” as they say. I.e., a black family can live in the house next to them, but not in the White House. With northern racists the reverse is true.


*EXCEPTION: Interracial marriage, but that goes for northern racists, too.

Comment #39: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  12:28 PM

Incertus, Nacho Daddy, yes, you could reduce your sample size to the point where you will get the results intended.

You could just scroll down 2 more posts where I clarified, and atheist got what I meant. Unless you don’t want to get it.

Comment #40: I Heart Puppies  on  08/11  at  12:28 PM

typist -

I’ve grown up here in Chicago, and you can definitely find the balls out kind in the right places.

Yeah, you could go to some dumbass sports bar around Addison and Oak Park, and you will be confronted with abject hatred that would make a Klansman blush. Wear your Hawks’ jersey.

Comment #41: I Heart Puppies  on  08/11  at  12:31 PM

Just to clarify, I’m talking post-Jim Crow.

Comment #42: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  12:31 PM

You could just scroll down 2 more posts where I clarified, and atheist got what I meant. Unless you don’t want to get it.

We cross-posted. And I apologize for being overly snarky.

Comment #43: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  08/11  at  12:33 PM

I distinctly remember my grandmother saying that mixed marriages were bad because “every race has its own unique beauty which shouldn’t be ruined.”

Is it racist to say that the children I know of mixed marriages are the most stunningly beautiful?

Comment #44: Siobhan  on  08/11  at  12:39 PM

I feel like racism (and sexism) are some of the trickiest things to deal with—it’s so insidious.  I went to a school that was basically not race aware at all (I wouldn’t say anti-racist, just everyone was from the same weird small ethnic minority and so race just didn’t come up.) My parents, never really said anything I could point to as racist when I was a child.  And yet, as an adult, all the racist things I heard as a teenager and adult have snaked into my brain and I have to actively fight them off.  It makes me really angry—why does our culture have this toxic stew of ideas that serves no purpose but to warp human brains, and is so difficult to get away from?

It’s interesting how it can change over time, as well—and not always for the better. My dad went from being pretty progressive (pro-civil rights, anti discrimination, anti racist ideas of certain groups.) to being semi-fascist and holding some pretty racist views in his old age.  I think for him it was part becoming crotchety and having some mental impairment, and part his gradual sense of accepting himself as a member of the “dominant” culture.  When he first got here, he was discriminated against and felt a strong sense of connection to other people whose color made them vulnerable. But as he grew older, wealthier, and more accepted, he started to see himself as part of the “haves.” At that point, his caste conscious upbringing in India rose up and started looking for some way to apply itself in the US.  And racism is a kind of obvious stand in for the caste system in India.

Comment #45: t-ster  on  08/11  at  12:41 PM

We’re cool, incertus.

Comment #46: I Heart Puppies  on  08/11  at  01:00 PM

I have met plenty of white people who probably think they are “good” and “not racist” who feel for some reason they can use the n-word.  Some in the North, some in the South.  For some dumb reason I would think white Southerners would be a little more aware of the particularly strong legacy of racism and oppression that lingers on in the South, and react against that by NOT using the word.  But this consciousness is largely absent.

Anyway, re: Lind, the proof is in the pudding.  As is well documented here and elsewhere in the blogosphere, Southerners have no issue sending one after another racist Sen. or Rep. to DC.  What other area of the country does that?  What other area of the country thinks its a good idea to honor Jesse Helms???  We are talking about politics here after all.

Comment #47: lilburro  on  08/11  at  01:03 PM

What other area of the country thinks its a good idea to honor Jesse Helms???

The homes state of Jesse Helms went blue this year. Barely, but it did. Especially poetic that it voted for a black man for President the year of Jesse Helms’ death.

Comment #48: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  01:06 PM

Caren, we’re not crazy per se, we’re situated in a history in which it has been seen by elite white people as absolutely quintessential to prevent African-American uppitiness in any form, usually for very real economic reasons of concern to said elite white people (which, cry me a river, rich white people). While every generation gets its head a little more out of its collective ass, I think, it would be really unexpected for a group of people from a history based on a fairly strict racial hierarchy and a knee-jerk fear of outsiders to not get a little hysterical over a black president with an international background. That doesn’t mean Southern racist jerks are poor misunderstood bunnies by all means - it’s inexcusable, in fact - but it also follows a certain internal logic. (Personally, as a cradle Southern Progressive from a family who completely thinks Obama’s the second coming in a non-antichrist way, I have very little sympathy - but I do try to understand the context.)

Comment #49: purpleshoes  on  08/11  at  01:08 PM

And also, say what you will about Al Sharpton, but comparing him to Pat Robertson is ridiculous.  Tell me what on earth exactly EVER befell Pat Robertson, his race, and his culture, EVER.  I guess what Sharpton has to say is simply “theatrical.” 

Ben D. - Pam wrote a great post on the Jesse Helms resolution here.  Even after the state barely went to Obama, the state still has to pay due deference to (recently) living breathing racist giants.  Ugh.

Comment #50: lilburro  on  08/11  at  01:17 PM

Didn’t know about thre resolution. That’s bullshit. Its sort of like when they passed a resolution in VA aplogizing for slavery and lynchings (fucking FINALLY), it still didn’t prevent a Republican state Rep. from saying, on the floor of the House of Delegates, “Why can’t blacks just get over it? The Jews killed Jesus, and I don’t hold that against them!” True story!

Comment #51: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  01:21 PM

I’d have to argue with that “most” characterization. Based on my own experience, I’d say a slim majority of white Texans aren’t racist, it’s only maybe 45% or so that are.

This is dead wrong.  Maybe 55% of white Texans like to think they aren’t racist, but I assure you the fraction of white Texans that harbor strong unconscious racial bias against dark-skinned people is far higher than 45%.

JohnGor0, you (and it’s not just you personally) get defensive when people say things like “All white people have benefited from centuries of systematic racism” because it’s exposing your unearned privilege for what it is and threatens to take it away from you.  A big part of privelege means not having to be uncomfortable.  One reason it’s so hard to get white people to genuinely stop being racist means having to acknowledge the ways racism has aided them and hindered others for no reason other than race, the things they have done and said that are racist, the things they witness that are racist.  It’s not comfortable.  But it’s a sight less uncomfortable than being the actual target of all that systematic racism, which I assure you despite the abolition of slavery and the repeal of Jim Crow laws and Brown v. Board of Education is still very much in action today.

A lot of white people whine “But why do you have to call me white?  Why can’t I just be human?”  Because while we have a racist society, we cannot have an honest discussion of racial issues without acknowledging that white is a race and not just the default humanity from which all other people deviate.  As long as black people have to be black and American Indians have to be American Indians (speaking in terms of social, political, and economic power, not cultural and linguistic heritage), white people have to be white people Without whiteness, we can’t talk about who benefits from the inequalities in the system.

And no this doesn’t mean all the white people get together and have a big convention where they talk about how to keep the brown folk down.  It just means stuff like if you’re a white man with a criminal record you’re more likely to be hired than a black man with a clean record.

Comment #52: kaninchen  on  08/11  at  01:32 PM

I see that other people here have parents who have gotten more conservative over the years. This has happened to me as well, and it is so painful to see the father I love and respect spout conservative talking points and barely veiled racism—especially against ‘illegals’. As Amanda said—he knows I’m a liberal and wants to push my buttons.

Anyone have suggestions on how to deal with that? If this is a derail, I apologize in advance, but it is hard to see this sort of thing happening in your own family.

Comment #53: Bethynyc  on  08/11  at  01:35 PM

kaninchen, everything you said its true but it is very, very difficult to point out to dirt poor whites from Appalachia for example that they’re “privileged” in any way.

Comment #54: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  01:37 PM

“Why can’t blacks just get over it? The Jews killed Jesus, and I don’t hold that against them!”

My brother has a line about this, where he says he’s sick and tired of the lie that the Jews killed Jesus. The ROMANS killed Jesus. “And as an Italian, I’m fed up with the Jews takin’ credit for a good Italian hit!”

Seriously, have these people never seen a passion play? Watched a historical movie about Jesus? Watched a nativity play? I know they’ve never read the Bible, but how are they not getting that their lord and savior WAS A JEW and saying he was murdered by the Jews is wrong on multiple levels—proximately, he was murdered by the Romans, and ultimately, he was murdered by the machinations of a secretive leadership group of the people HE BELONGED TO. Sort of like if the CIA had gotten John Kennedy assassinated by feeding misinformation to the Russians, who then actually carried out the hit.

A Jew also gave birth to Jesus. Jews were *all* of his friends and followers. His cousin was a Jew. His apostles were Jews. HOW DO SO-CALLED CHRISTIANS MISS THIS????

Comment #55: Alara J Rogers  on  08/11  at  01:39 PM

Ben D., as the guy once said, some man, you just can’t reach.

Comment #56: kaninchen  on  08/11  at  01:41 PM

and ultimately, he was murdered by the machinations of a secretive leadership group of the people HE BELONGED TO.

And this small group was made up of ROMANIZED Jews. I.e., collaborationists helping an occupying foreign power.

Comment #57: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  01:44 PM

No, it’s actually not.  It’s not that big a leap, if you assume that federal intelligence agencies have historically had it out for black people, which there’s piles of evidence to show that they have.

And let’s not forget the Tuskeegee Experiments.

I fucking hate how it’s just “being paranoid” to have been born black (or any other race) in this country and KNOWING that this shit exists because you deal with it every damn day - being told by white guys who don’t experience this shit at all that you’re “paranoid”.
$%*(&^#$*@&^$
ARRGHHH!!!

Comment #58: Danica Lefse Queen  on  08/11  at  01:47 PM

I think some of the parents changing over time is a function of diminishing brain capacity. Not to be mean, but you can convince little kids that Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy exist. So it’s not a stretch to convince old people that the government doesn’t really run Medicare, Obama wants to euthanize them and he really isn’t an American citizen.

I watched my dad slowly die of Alzheimer’s disease and one of the first symptoms is anger—out of control, balls out rage. I personally think that Alzheimer’s is a sped up version of what happens to most old people. So the slow boil of anger doesn’t really surprise me. And the loss of power and relevance in a world that is clearly moving on without them, coupled with the fear of what aging is doing to them brings out the worst (racism) in some old folks.

Comment #59: DC Fem  on  08/11  at  01:57 PM

Ben D, Jesse Helms was a great example of what I’m talking about. Black people he didn’t know (and women) he thought were lazy shiftless bastards and deserves what they got. Black people who were his constituents who called his office and said their house was getting repossessed, he would sometimes move heaven and earth for. There’s a reason he kept getting reelected even though he was an embarrassment, and that was because if you actually called him with a problem he would help you. Liddy Dole’s office pulls the same thing: their stated positions and votes on bills are crap, but they will respond helpfully to constituents. See how she’s “tough on immigration” (which I tend to interpret as “racist”, honestly) but her people will push visas through if they are asked directly (and if the appeal is worded right and comes from the “right kind” of immigrant-sympathizer).

So see again: all members of said group deserve what’s coming from them except for the ones I know personally, who are fine people. Very Southern. Very very North Carolina.

Comment #60: purpleshoes  on  08/11  at  01:57 PM

Purpleshoes:

I think that this is important because it’s fairly common, in my experience, for people not from the South to assert that only Southern-style racism is Real Racism and therefore they aren’t racist, and some really garbled Southern history gets used to justify all kinds of crap all over the internet.

And, being a lifelong Southerner myself, I am not really inclined to accept “crap all over the internet” as authoritative on the differences between Sourtern and Northern racism.  Plenty of people convince themselves they are not racist, or that their particular brand of racism is not really “racism.” At the end of the day, I find them to be different only in form, and not function—and these North/South comparisons are in my experience useless as anything other than an exercise at finding distinctions without differences.  They may be interesting to historians or anthropologists, I think they have little use in the formulation of policy.

Ben D.:

I think southern racists don’t care how close black people are to them* as long as they don’t get into positions of power, that they “know their place” as they say. I.e., a black family can live in the house next to them, but not in the White House. With northern racists the reverse is true.

*EXCEPTION: Interracial marriage, but that goes for northern racists, too.

See, I find that Southern racists very much do not want black people close to them anywhere, anyhow, unless in a patently servile capacity.  They certainly aren’t “ok” with blacks moving in next door.  I very much doubt Northern racists would differ in this respect substantially, and furthermore, the most notable thing about your comparison is that all the racists agree they don’t want black people in the family tree.

(The irony of course is that there is a great statistical likelihood that most “white” Southerners whose families have been in the South for any significant length of time have black ancestry.)

Comment #61: Felix Culpa  on  08/11  at  02:15 PM

That whole essay is classic, CLASSIC derailing.  “You say white people did something racist?  LOOK! Black people are prejudiced too! So are Latinos!”

Yes.  And we’re actually talking about a specific, horrible thing Southern white people believe.

Comment #62: Jonquil  on  08/11  at  02:25 PM

kaninchen, thanks for refreshing my memory of a bunch of stuff I already know and believe.

Look, if somebody recognizes that inequities exist, tries to act fairly when given the chance, yet, for some reason, has the notion in the back of their head that black guys are afraid of dogs, they’re not a dirty racist. They harbor a racist notion. Which can be unlearned.

I believe Amanda refers to those who will, upon meeting you, say, “I’m Cletus, and I hate (the n-word)s.”

The goal is to root out racist notions, and unlearn them. If we’re trying to clearly define who’s a racist, and who’s not, then you will get resistance.

Comment #63: I Heart Puppies  on  08/11  at  02:31 PM

What?  Black men are afraid of dogs, that’s your idea of unconscious racism?

Comment #64: kaninchen  on  08/11  at  02:49 PM

I don’t understand your question, kaninchen.

Comment #65: I Heart Puppies  on  08/11  at  02:56 PM

I don’t understand your argument, JohnGor0.  Someone who recognizes that inequities exist and acts fairly is not a racist.  They may well have unconscious bias because it’s hard to reprogram that low-level shit, but they are aware that they have it and take it into account when making decisions.  That’s great.  So if you’re already doing that then you know you benefit in lots of really tangible ways that you did not in fact earn from your whiteness.  If you’re working at not being racist, you should be uncomfortable.

If you get defensive and try to turn the conversation to how nice and not-racist a white person you are and that you really need some cookies right now because all this talk of how whiteness is oppresive to other people is making you feel bad?  Then you are not so past the racism as you think.

But shit, John, you know that, right?  I’m just preaching to the choir here.  Have a cookie.

Comment #66: kaninchen  on  08/11  at  03:28 PM

I do try not to single out Southern whites as especially prone to racism, for two very simple reasons: a) I don’t personally know all that many, & b) plenty of “balls-out” racism most emphatically CAN be found north of Mason-Dixon.

I can still remember going to college in Ohio & hearing white people toss around the N-word in front of me, because they couldn’t tell they were in mixed company (quite a culture-shock coming from DC where, no kidding, you really could go your whole life & not witness that).  I also remember relatives in Cleveland telling me during last year’s Democratic primaries that racism was highly likely to tip the state toward Hillary Clinton.

But most of all I remember that nowhere in America did my white mother and black father take more crap for dating, marrying and breeding than in the state of Ohio.  Granted, that was all 40-some years ago, but still ...

Comment #67: GSDavis  on  08/11  at  03:34 PM

kaninchen -

Then you are not so past the racism as you think.

Well, I’d probably be the first to admit this. And what you said about being uncomfortable makes perfect sense. You are preaching to the choir, and I don’t want a cookie.

I just used a bad example. I get caught in the trap of trying to believe that not everyone has bad intentions.

Comment #68: I Heart Puppies  on  08/11  at  03:37 PM

All Texans share some part of Simon Legree’s patriarchy.  Shun them.

Comment #69: mnsr  on  08/11  at  03:41 PM

Here’s the difference between the South and the hated “elitist” parts of the country concern trolls like Michael Lind deliberately misrepresent: Sure, there are racist pricks in California. And Sure, California’s record of liberal equality is spotty. But you know what? I have never been in a restaurant in LA or San Fransisco, minding my own goddamned business, and had a stranger come over to my table uninvited to call me a faggot*, or otherwise harrangue me for offending their sensibilities regarding what is normal or proper or what have you.

On the other hand, growing up in Oklahoma, hell, well into my 20s, this was a regular occurrence. In fact, After having moved away, I returned over Christmas to visit my family (I was 30 years old at the time), and a stranger decided to shout “FAGGOT” at me from his car window.

I spent my entire growing up years all over the South, and I can compare the behavior I’ve experienced in the scaaary coastal regions of the country to the south with intimate expertise. So forgive me if I honestly could not give a flying fuck whether or not the special precious feelings of White Southerners are hurt when it is accurately pointed that they are, as a demographic, a bunch of ignorant, bigoted assholes.

If these people can routinely insist that liberals aren’t legitimate Americans, call people like us traitors, and routinely erupt into violence directed at us, I should be allowed, at least, to mock their angry ignorance, their lack of personal discipline, and their choice of self destruction because they would rather starve than see black people recieve free health care.

Fuck them, in other words.

*Note: I’m not gay, which just makes the whole thing that much more absurd.

Comment #70: Ross Lincoln  on  08/11  at  03:47 PM

Felix Culpa, while I am pretty sure our basic disagreement is not resolvable (I see racism as site-specific and culturally-determined and think any progress that is to be made must deal directly with the culture and background of the people who are bigoted jackasses, you are making some other point altogether which I am resigned to not understanding clearly), I do want to clarify that when I say “crap all over the internet” I mean the tendency of people to make very inaccurate statements about Southern history to explain a) why they personally are not racist b) why some other person is demonstrably racist. Southern US racism is the product of specific historical processes which may or may not be linked to anti-immigrant lynchings on the Arizona border or for that matter the forced removal of aboriginal children from their homes in Australia during the 20th century. The internet is the place that I tend to see these arguments laid out, because of the epistolary form of most internet communication. Are all these examples racism? Yes. Do the details matter to forming any kind of reasonable understanding of or response to what is going on?

Well, yes. I really fail to see how that point is debatable and don’t think you’re actually debating it. Though I do acknowledge that blog comment threads are rarely places where reasonable understandings are formed.

Comment #71: purpleshoes  on  08/11  at  04:06 PM

I am sorry to have wasted your time and mine, JohnGor0.  Do carry on as you were.

Comment #72: kaninchen  on  08/11  at  04:17 PM

Here’s how I see it. Liberals should respect and promote the interests of working Americans of all races and regions, including those who despise liberals. They are erring neighbors to be won over, not cretins to be mocked.

BS. When someone’s proudly out front with his racism (or sexism, or homophobia, etc.), he’s a cretin by the standards of America ca. 2009, and deserves our mockery. Working or unemployed, white or black or green, northern or southern, he’s not someone I have any interest in “winning over,” if only because I’m not inclined to beat my head against a brick wall.

Lind needs to read a little Steve Gilliard to be reminded about what it means to be a fighting liberal.

Comment #73: Gracchus.  on  08/11  at  04:19 PM

If you’re being sarcastic, kaninchen, your comment about knowing about priviledge being uncomfortable really did make sense. I’m not fucking around.

Yes, part of my problem is that I do have stuff pop up in my head that I do feel like shit over, and do get defensive about. And then argue it for 10 minutes. And then wonder afterwards, why didn’t I just admit it was stupid, shut up and move on?

People feeling uncomfortable about racist priviledge is kind of like “remembering 9/11” to me. Bear with me. There are so many truly horrible stories that happened on 9/11, like the guy who slept through his wife’s call, and then when he checked messages, she told him she was going to die, or the lady who saw her husband jump off a building on TV, that if you tried to keep all that in your head, you would go insane. You cannot keep that stuff in your active brain and stay sane.

It’s the same with being aware of racism. I really feel that alot of people that we think are “racist” really do walk around knowing they are. And they have to make a decision. Either work to change it, and sometimes feel like a piece of shit, or accept and embrace it, thus killing their conscience. These people go to the extremes of needling liberals with their racism, just to prove to themselves how hardened they are.

Because one really does have to admit that when you accept a cop showing you respect because you’re a 45 year old white guy, you’re in same boat as the people standing around getting their picture taken in front of the lynched black man. Not that you did it, you just enjoy the perks of a racist society where profiling, lynching, segregation, black jokes are all part of one big societal problem that results in a white cop seeing a middle-aged white guy, and feeling relieved.

But I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know.

I’m not asking for you to pity the racist. Just know that’s what’s going on in their head. Do with it what you will.

Thank you, really, for replying. Your one sentence did make me understand something a little better.

Comment #74: I Heart Puppies  on  08/11  at  04:41 PM

Fern,

I think some of the parents changing over time is a function of diminishing brain capacity. Not to be mean, but you can convince little kids that Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy exist. So it’s not a stretch to convince old people that the government doesn’t really run Medicare, Obama wants to euthanize them and he really isn’t an American citizen.

I watched my dad slowly die of Alzheimer’s disease and one of the first symptoms is anger—out of control, balls out rage.

Early Alzheimer’s symptoms include not just anger, but paranoia. Which explains a LOT about the current Tea Party/Birthbaggers doing Dick Armey and David Koch’s bidding.

My father is showing the early symptoms of Alzheimer’s, which is what reduced his mother to an incontinent shell with no mental faculties in hospice. He grew up a Vietnam war protestor, and even after his conversion to mormonism (don’t ask me to explain; I can’t), he remained a reasonably progressive New Englander. It’s as he’s gotten older that he’s become more angry and fearful.

At 61, with every passing month the paranoia and anger gets worse. He’s never showed overt racism before. But that’s all changed in the last few years. I see a LOT of what Ben D. describes as northern racism - he doesn’t mind a black man in the White House, but moved from Massachusetts to a white suburb of mormon Utah to avoid the black people next door. When I came out he was initially accepting, then rapidly changed his mind. He reportedly asked my mother, “If she HAS to be a lesbian, couldn’t she at least find a white woman?” (My partner is biracial.) I think it’s a case of White Male Baby Boomer entitlement syndrome coupled with Alzheimer’s-induced fear and paranoia of a world changing so fast he can’t comprehend it. Change has always upset him, and as he’s gotten older and his brain has started falling apart, he’s retreated into this mental bunker of fear and anger and racism and homophobia, because that’s what he was raised to believe. He’s going back to his childhood. It makes me so fucking sad to see the man who raised me to believe that prejudice is wrong become so angry and afraid of everyone who isn’t just like him.

Comment #75: Keori  on  08/11  at  04:50 PM

Sorry, purpleshoes, gotta disagree.

Yes,there are racists everywhere.  Yes, Chicago is the most racially divisive place I’ve ever lived—we tell our white people apart (Jews, italians, Greeks, Irish, WASP, Eastern European (Bosnian vs. Russian vs. jews from those countries) German—I can tell us apart now, when I first moved here, I barely knew Hispanics weren’t white.)

Birthers are a whole new kind of crazy.  They are denying facts and reality.  It would be one thing to state that they just hate that a black man is President.  I could almost respect that, as it’s at least honest in its hatred.

But no matter what, these people insist that somehow, Obama is not really an American citizen.  I’ve even read comments where people complain about how no one ever investigated these questions.

AS IF THE CLINTONS WOULD HAVE LEFT ANY STONE UNTURNNED!

I actually think John Roberts screwed up the oath on purpose.  It just adds fuel to the “He’s not really the President” people.

It’s not just hatred.  It’s not just code words.  They honestly, and CRAZILY, somehow think the man is not a citizen nor is he legitimately the President.  It’s different from plain racism, and while it’s fuelled, no doubt, by racism,  it’s a whole heap of craziness unto itself.

Calling it crazy, and calling the 58%ers who buy it crazy for believing it, isn’t rude.  It’s just fact.

—————-
BenD, it was a resolution honoring Hawai’i's 50 years as a state.  It also mentioned it was the birthplace of our 44th President, Barack Obama.

Comment #76: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/11  at  05:01 PM

purpleshoes: At root what I am getting at—and what I have indeed not expressed that clearly—is great antipathy to the notion that “Northern” and “Southern” racism can even be sensibly differentiated.  I am skeptical in the extreme of any argument constructed in the form of “[people from geographical division X] are racist in [manner A], while [people from geographical grouping Y] are racist in [manner B].”  I think Northern and Southern racism are essentially similar.  To the extent they actually differ, the notion that either “form” of racism is some monolithic or homogenous constuct that can be generalized usefully just seems false to me.  But I understand that, yes, we disagree on this one.

Comment #77: Felix Culpa  on  08/11  at  05:05 PM

Felix Culpa-

While I get what you’re saying, I think you’re also ignoring the part that regional history and regional cultures play in the expression of racism.  I’m from ND, just across the border from MN.  We’re known for our “niceness”, which traditionally means smiling at people on the street, saying hello, bringing cookies over to the neighbors, and passive-aggressiveness.  Lots and lots and lots of passive-aggressiveness, because it isn’t “nice” to be mean.

This also means that people who are knowingly racist will rarely say something overt to a minority.  Many, many people will say something ignorantly racist, since the most diverse city in the state is still 95% white.  But most people here value “niceness” over saying a racial epithet to someone’s face.  Their racism just comes out in subtler, passive-aggressive ways, and this is probably also true for people who are racist by default.  So yes, I’d guess that a black person here would have a much different experience of racism than if s/he were in a place that valued bluntness, or were in a place that tolerated/encouraged treating minorities badly.

Comment #78: Karinna A.  on  08/11  at  05:18 PM

Um, meant to add:  And because of our tradition of passive-aggressiveness and Scandinavian stoicism and “niceness,” someone doing anti-racism work here would have to do a lot of work to even convince most people that they do harbor racist ideas, and would probably have to take a different tack in addressing those issues than if they were in, say, Chicago.

Comment #79: Karinna A.  on  08/11  at  05:20 PM

I can still remember going to college in Ohio & hearing white people toss around the N-word in front of me, because they couldn’t tell they were in mixed company (quite a culture-shock coming from DC where, no kidding, you really could go your whole life & not witness that).  I also remember relatives in Cleveland telling me during last year’s Democratic primaries that racism was highly likely to tip the state toward Hillary Clinton.

Out of curiosity, which college and what decade?

Though many local town residents had no hesitation in shouting racist epithets when I was at my NE Ohio college in the mid-late 1990s, usage of that word on campus as a student, faculty, or admin/staff would prompt campus-wide protest against that student and an expedited Judicial board hearing which would at best end with a 1 year judicial suspension and most likely being expelled or the faculty/admin/staff being dismissed for violating college policies on discrimination and harassment. 

Then again, my undergrad has enough of a radical-left progressive reputation that few people holding openly or even semi-conscious racist views who are politically to the right of the green/socialist party would ever opt to go there in the first place because it is “too damned PC”. 

Only famous outlier exception to this that I know of off the top of my head being Michelle Malkin. 

But most of all I remember that nowhere in America did my white mother and black father take more crap for dating, marrying and breeding than in the state of Ohio.  Granted, that was all 40-some years ago, but still ...

People openly staring with disgust and even making racist comments toward interracial dating couples were still at it when I was attending college there in the mid-late 1990s.  While the degree and intensity may have lessened than in decades past according to long-time faculty, admin/staff, and some reasonable town residents, it was still occurring as of a decade ago.

Comment #80: exholt  on  08/11  at  05:37 PM

Karinna A.: I think the point we were addressing in the thread originally is how open, virulent, “in your face” racism tends to be expressed, not “unintentional” or sublimated racism.  White people everywhere, in my experience, tend to harbor racist beliefs or attitudes which they themselves do not recognize as “racist.”  This is not unique to the North, the South, the Midwest, or anywhere else.  I think you almost always have to approach someone who does not realize or think they are being racist carefully, and I am not convinced the approach is substantially different based on geography.  Perhaps in some respects, but not in the broad strokes.  I also do not think “in your face” racists—those who point-blank hate blacks even if they are not publicly willing to admit this—are distinguishable from each other in any meaningful sense, other than perhaps in the terminology they would use or maybe the accent they would express it in.

By the way, while I am certainly not attempting to impeach the “niceness” of North Dakotans, Minnesotans, or the concept of “Scandinavian stoicism,” I again think this is exactly the kind of boiler-plate attempt at generalization based on a geographical association that casts more heat than light.  And Southerners, after all, are supposed to be rather legendary for their hospitality and manners if the conventional wisdom is right—certainly, I think that trope is much more ubiquitous than Scandinavian “niceness.” wink

Comment #81: Felix Culpa  on  08/11  at  05:45 PM

Purpleshoes, you don’t seem to know that Liddy Dole was voted out of office, or that NC went blue in the last election. I don’t have a problem with calling out offensive crap, but ignorance is unhelpful.

Comment #82: samanthab.  on  08/11  at  05:52 PM

Caren, I don’t think we actually disagree, I think we’re stuck in semantics. My point was mostly that the reason why certain places are turning into big ole piles of irrationality right now is because the fact of President Barack Obama is hitting them right in their issues. Anyone who looks crazy from outside is probably acting in a way that makes sense to them inside their heads and in their particular context; I don’t think it’s rude to say that from the outside it looks like crazypants overreaction based on no logic at all. If anything, I think “crazy”, with its connotation of spontaneous flights from reason, is letting the issue go too easily. The Southern history this specific geographic reaction is linked to isn’t a spontaneous flight from reason; it’s long and ugly and for the most part very deliberate. And it’s created these lasting patterns of behavior which cause people to act completely out of touch with what people who aren’t horribly alarmed about a black president on some level consider reality.

Comment #83: purpleshoes  on  08/11  at  05:53 PM

samanthab, duh. Sigh. I live here and I still blank out on who the hell our senators are. I think it’s because I dealt with a lot of people from Dole’s office and have had no interactions with Hagan’s people at all yet, so in my brain she’s still around. Thanks for the fact-check and sorry for spreading misinformation, though I don’t think I implied that we went all that red.

Comment #84: purpleshoes  on  08/11  at  06:04 PM

purpleshoes: No one is arguing that Southern racists aren’t reacting to Obama because of their racism.  No one is even arguing that whites in the South are not (as an overall percentage) “more” racist than whites in the North.  I think this is true for the historical reasons to which you allude.  I just don’t think they can be meaningfully differentiated from racists in the North—which also exist in large numbers.

Comment #85: Felix Culpa  on  08/11  at  06:04 PM

Felix, agreed to disagree on the issue of racism in former slave states being different in character and expression from racism in states that were not part of the Confederacy, though agreed to agree on there being racism in both.

samanthab, it’s particularly embarrassing that I forgot given those ridiculous fucking campaign ads, which my holy-shit-I-didn’t-fact-check google just reminded me of.

Comment #86: purpleshoes  on  08/11  at  06:07 PM

I don’t know Amanda. For over ten years Mike Judge has been telling us that white Texans are common sense, salt of the earth types, and that it’s skinny, tofu eating, New York elites that are ruining everything.

Comment #87: pablo  on  08/11  at  06:19 PM

Let me just say that both Northern and Southern racism fucking suck and need to be stamped out. Saying their different doesn’t mean one is anymore excusable than the other. That’s not where I was going, just FYI.

Comment #88: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  06:25 PM

Pablo, Mike Judge seems pretty sympathetic towards Latinos, though.

Comment #89: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  06:26 PM

Let me just say that both Northern and Southern racism fucking suck[.]

I think you’ll get no arguments there, Ben D. wink

Comment #90: Felix Culpa  on  08/11  at  06:35 PM

From comment #31:

I’ve grown up here in Chicago, and you can definitely find the balls out kind in the right places.

Actually, typist, you’re right. Thinking a little more, I can come up with examples of balls-out racism in Chicago too. I think I meant that, in my life, I tend not to encounter it much. But that doesn’t mean much, it’s just anecdotal, etc.

Comment #91: atheist  on  08/11  at  06:36 PM

For over ten years Mike Judge has been telling us that white Texans are common sense, salt of the earth types, and that it’s skinny, tofu eating, New York elites that are ruining everything.

I don’t think Dale Gribble (AKA Rusty Shackleford) is anyone’s idea of a common-sense, salt-of-the-earth type. You could say the same about Bill and most of the other white characters on KotH, except for the sympathetic protagonist (who has his own quirks).

Watch that show or Office Space or Idiocracy and it’s clear that Mike Judge enjoys making fun of morons and the self-deluded, whether they’re good ole boys, corporate types, liberal elites, or just about any other category you’d care to choose.

Comment #92: Gracchus.  on  08/11  at  06:46 PM

exholt, my experience was some 20 years ago at Akron.  At the time I didn’t find the environment there especially liberal or conservative (though I had friends of both persuasions), & the campus was far too ethnically diverse to be an openly hostile environment.  I never heard the epithet shouted, just spoken in conversation - & the likelihood of hearing it of course varied with what part of the state the speaker was from (don’t know about now, but the enrollment there then was 98-point-something percent Ohioan).  I could imagine someone getting into trouble or causing a ruckus for saying it in the wrong setting, though I doubt it would have been treated as a suspension/dismissal offense back then.

& on the treatment of interracial couples in public - nope, I’m not a bit surprised.

Comment #93: GSDavis  on  08/11  at  06:53 PM

though now that I read your answer, exholt, it occurs to me that I maybe came down unintentionally hard on my mother’s native state.  I really just meant to make the point that it’s important not to “geographically profile.”

Comment #94: GSDavis  on  08/11  at  07:01 PM

Ben D, I think that’s why I’m getting frustrated: because yes! but I don’t think you can stomp them out without having a clear idea of what they are and where they came from. Thus: frustration. I’ll bow out now instead of beating the point further to death.

Comment #95: purpleshoes  on  08/11  at  07:02 PM

And it’s created these lasting patterns of behavior which cause people to act completely out of touch with what people who aren’t horribly alarmed about a black president on some level consider reality.

Nope, that’s not quite it.  It’s not different views of reality.  It’s denial of reality.  Yes, they are acting like racists, and they may even have the sense not to want to be called “racist” in public, but they are denying reality in way I’ve never seen.  It’s one thing to think blacks are stupid, Greeks are liars, Irish are drunks, whatever.  Those are stereotyped beliefs, and even most that hold them will admit that the people of the maligned group that they actually know are “nice”.

Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.  This is a fact.  It is a demonstrable fact.  He was vetted, voted in, sworn in, and is the legitmate President of the United States.

These facts are not in dispute…except by crazy people with a racist agenda.

You can be unhappy that he is the President—lord knows I was pissed the last 8 years—but when you say “Not my President”, it’s supposed to mean you didn’t vote for him, not that he’s not the legitmate POTUS.

Again, I’d respect them more if they just said “No n*gger is ever going to be my president”.  But they don’t.  They keep claiming he’s not an American citizen.  No amount of proof otherwise has an effect.  No lack of proof of their claims to the contrary has an effect.

Bush pushed the idea that we can create our own reality, but this is insane.  It’s not cherry-picking or pushing for intelligence to back up pre-decided policy, which while bad and dishonest, isn’t crazy.  They are denying reality because they don’t like the fact a black man is, indeed, president. 

They can dislike the man.  They can dislike his policies.  They can be frightened b/c Fox/Beck/Palin fearmonger.  But they cannot have their own “facts” that are in opposition to reality.

There’s not any controversy here.  Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

This is craziness, and it’s not racist nor regionalist to say so.  In fact, they need to be called on it MORE—if you’re just going to scream OOOGA BOOGA, well, then you need to sit down and let people willing to have civil discourse go about running things.

Comment #96: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/11  at  07:45 PM

just spoken in conversation

Any student/faculty/admin/staff member who was dumb enough to utter a racist epithet even once in a conversation on that campus beyond making an illustrative example in the context of things like a workshop/academic discussion on racism would not only have earned a quick route to the J-board and suspension/expulsion if student and dismissal if a faculty/admin/staff….that individual would be facing endless campuswide protest where protesters won’t hesitate to scream, yell, and get in your face about it everywhere s/he went on campus until s/he left the campus area. 

I really just meant to make the point that it’s important not to “geographically profile.”

I know that one shouldn’t do this, but it is understandable when I’ve experienced racist crap firsthand in NE Ohio…including an incident where a young white male threatened to fight me from his car and almost did if it weren’t for the sudden chance appearance of a police car a few cars behind him which scared him off. 

More so when several POC friends have told me horror stories about driving through the rural parts of southern states like Georgia where it was made quite clear with guns that non-Whites were not welcome in certain parts. 

Then again, I’ve encountered outright blatant racists in the Dorchester area of Boston when I was doing the 2000 census from some Irish-American teens.

Comment #97: exholt  on  08/11  at  07:51 PM

The reason it’s the responsibility of Southern whites to speak out against racist Southern whites is because those racist Southern whites think our racist Midwestern whites are a bunch of elitist queers.

Comment #98: asdf  on  08/11  at  07:54 PM

Who the hell in King of the Hill has any common sense? Only Boomhauer, a well-educated man who speaks three languages, fluent in two.

Comment #99: asdf  on  08/11  at  08:18 PM

Hank is proved correct in nearly every episode. He regularly triumphs over liberals, who are nearly always portrayed as hippy throwbacks, just out to scam good people.  I don’t think I’ve ever seen a progressive person portrayed well on that show, though I admit I haven’t seen them all.

Comment #100: pablo  on  08/11  at  09:11 PM

Would Boomhauer count as progressive? He does like modern art (he called Hank “dang ‘ol uneducated” when he trashed it) and has a French Canadian girlfriend!

Comment #101: Ben D.  on  08/11  at  09:26 PM

My impression is that Hank is unreasonable in every episode, and is tempered by Peggy, Bobby, or Luanne, usually ending in a learning experience for him.

Comment #102: asdf  on  08/11  at  09:39 PM

I have never been in a restaurant in LA or San Fransisco, minding my own goddamned business, and had a stranger come over to my table uninvited to call me a faggot*

That’s LA and San Francisco, not California as a whole. Go to Fresno or Bakersfield or Redding and things are a little different. I’ve been in parts of the rural South that are more progressive.

Comment #103: mythago  on  08/12  at  02:00 AM

Caren, it is exhausting how we keep missing each other’s points. I am saying that insanity makes sense to the insane. I am not demanding that other people recognize the internal logic of the crazypants as any kind of actual reality - I am saying that understanding where people are coming from helps you get closer to the root of the problem then standing across the street yelling YEP YOU SURE ARE CRAZY. Attempts at cultural or historical understanding of the roots of really destructive patterns doesn’t seem to be for everybody, but that’s the only way I know to get close enough to the roots of the problem to actually be able to say or do anything constructive.

But then, this blog is very much more about standing across the street pointing and laughing in order to save some semblance of your own sanity, so I am probably wasting breath.

Also, I think my opinion on this starts from the idea that of course any reasonable human being has already seen that birtherism is insane and started thinking about how we can talk down this particular brand of insanity. I have probably jumped right over the step where we somehow get news outlets to stop taking demonstrably untrue conspiracy theories seriously and start treating them as a public health issue.

Comment #104: purpleshoes  on  08/12  at  01:02 PM

Go to Fresno or Bakersfield or Redding and things are a little different.

There has been a gradual acceptance of homosexuality over the years in Red CA, but there
is a lot of ignorance and hostility here, and there is a protest march scheduled for her by the anti-Prop 8 forces in the next few weeks, it’ll be interesting to see what the response here will be.

There is nothing new in people believing something that is on the fact of it bullshit, in Menckens’ Americana column in the American Mercury magazine during the 20s’,  there was one account of a town where the rumor that the Pope was coming in on the afternoon train attracted most of the towns’ residents to see if the rumor was correct.

Comment #105: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/12  at  05:16 PM
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