Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Where’s The Burrito Stand? Previous entry: Just a little musical interlude

Liberal Fascism §601.1(b)

imageI’ll admit, I don’t keep up with all the new developments in liberal fascism - I missed the code banning Adidas, the entire section about acceptable used of powdered sugar passed me by, and I only found out about the rebirth of the Black Power salute because I happened to check my e-mail before the last rally.

But I’m damned familiar with the shutting down of dissent part, and even I’m having trouble fitting in calling into a radio show with “silencing critics”.  Here’s Jim Treacher’s case, which is predictably full of shit:

Having listened to the previous Milt Rosenberg show with Stanley Kurtz that got “Action-Wired” (which is available here), I can tell you what this translates to:

“We’ll provide a page of talking points for you to spout at the host and his guest. Just read it from your screen. Unfortunately, we’re unable to provide you with the necessary brainpower to keep up when the host asks you to explain the reasoning behind ‘your’ opinion, or poses any other question that isn’t found in our script.

“But that isn’t the point anyway. We just want to tie up their phone lines with thousands of angry calls, both to intimidate them and to prevent people with legitimate questions from getting through. Yes We Can… Shout Down All Blasphemers.”

So, apparently, any time someone calls and registers their displeasure with something, it’s actually a violation of other people’s first amendment rights.  Of course, you could then argue that during the normal course of the show, the people calling in to register approval are, in fact, violating the first amendment rights of the people who don’t approve of what’s on the show.  So, to wrap up, the phone is inherently unconstitutional because any time a group of people larger than the amount of phone lines the target place has call in, they’re shutting out any opposing view.  If you ever wanted to get rid of the telecoms, this is your chance!

This is not free speech. This is not “people expressing their opinion.” This is people expressing Obama’s opinion. This is a powerful politician arrogantly abusing that power to try to silence his critics, without even bothering to hide behind Media Matters or Kos, because he knows he can get away with it. This is wrong.

People choosing to say things they agree with of their own volition in a way that provides them an equal chance of saying those things as anyone else who wants to say something else in a given forum is wrong

As far as I know, the only precedent in presidential politics is the buffoonish antics of Lyndon LaRouche followers. And I don’t think even he ever put out a “LaRouche Action Wire.” Probably because he didn’t think of it first. Not to mention that he’s never had a chance in hell of winning.

It is, of course, an incredibly common tactic for any number of activist and advocacy groups on both the left and the right, but when Obama dips his messianically maniacal toe in the pool, it’s forever tainted with the juicy melange of totalitarianism. 

What if you have some vague notion that Obama is in any way a good candidate, but you don’t like talking on the phone? Well, you can just hack his opponents’ e-mail accounts. We are the vermin we’ve been waiting for.

I’ll bet you didn’t know Barack Obama ran 4chan.org.  And invented hacking.  Or created the very concept of assholes on the internet.  Mesus is all-powerful!

...So long as he has a WiFi connection.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Jesse Taylor on 09:58 AM • (71) Comments

I’m certainly not condoning what 4chan did, but there’s a very good reason why governments don’t do business over those kinds of email accounts, and it’s precisely because they’re easier to hack. And I’d bet you anything that if a news report had come out saying that Joe Biden was conducting Congressional business through a fucking Yahoo! account, that someone would have pulled the same trick on him.

Comment #1: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/18  at  10:17 AM

I just got an action wire email from team Obama.

They decided to drop the talking points and just have everyone start yelling Obama Booey! Obama Booey!  everytime they get through.

Comment #2: Joseph  on  09/18  at  10:38 AM

Not sure why Treacher brings up “free speech” in this context.  A private individual calling in to a talk show does not implicate the 1st Amendment.  Easy solution for Mr. Rosenberg: use tape delay when Mr. Kurtz shows up.  It is certainly not polite for Democrats to try to ruin the Republican’s show, but since when has politics been polite?

Comment #3: anoNY  on  09/18  at  10:42 AM

Well, the unchanging Republican law is IOKIYAR. “If we do it, it’s the most noble and godly and reaganesque thing ever. If you do it, it’s unspeakably evil and we’re going to try to get someone to kill you—which is the most noble and godly and reaganesque thing ever.”

Comment #4: Scott  on  09/18  at  10:43 AM

As far as I know, the only precedent in presidential politics is the buffoonish antics of Lyndon LaRouche followers. And I don’t think even he ever put out a “LaRouche Action Wire.” Probably because he didn’t think of it first.

I think it’s more likely because when Lyndon LaRouche had a significant number of “followers”, Al Gore hadn’t invented the Internet* and John McCain hadn’t invented the Blackberry yet.

<a >Sorry, Mr. Gore.</a>

Comment #5: Dorothy  on  09/18  at  11:03 AM

I agree with Mr. Treacher.  Freeping is a new activity, entirely invented by Barack Obama.

Wait, you wanted to say something about the etymology of the term “freeping?”

Comment #6: Spokane Moderate  on  09/18  at  11:11 AM

Not sure why Treacher brings up “free speech” in this context. 

Because he’s a fucking idiot, I’d guess.

Comment #7: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/18  at  11:14 AM

It is certainly not polite for Democrats to try to ruin the Republican’s show

The fact that this came out of the <strike>mouth</strike> typing fingers of an internet troll is PRICELESS.

If it’s not polite for Democrats to try to derail a radio talk show by tying up the lines, it’s not polite for Republicans to try to derail a blog by trolling.

Comment #8: The Opoponax  on  09/18  at  11:15 AM

Op:

IMO, I wouldn’t worry about trolls. In over a year of reading this Blog, I’ve never seen the slightest evidence that a troll has ever had any effect on the opinion of the posters here. On the contrary, trolls serve a valuable purpose of solidifying the community and “concreteizing” the conventional wisdom displayed here. Trolls are merely a petty annoyance, a slight layer of dust on the collective truth.

Comment #9: AlexanderBuinov  on  09/18  at  11:44 AM

Republicans don’t understand the Constitution, film at 11.

And to think, yesterday was Constitution Day.

Comment #10: J.V.  on  09/18  at  11:47 AM

Speak for yourself; I enjoy trolls.  I find it amusing to watch their epic fail.

Comment #11: INTPagan  on  09/18  at  11:52 AM

Alexander’s indignation at being unable to convert anyone by sharing stupid opinions is amusing.  Guaranteed he’s the guy who calls a woman a bitch when she doesn’t immediately hop on his cock after he buys her a drink.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/18  at  11:57 AM

Geez, they sure don’t react well if you pierce their little bubble of insanity, do they?

Comment #13: Mnemosyne  on  09/18  at  11:58 AM

Amanda:

Thanks for making my case. A response very typical for this blog. No need to worry about trolls!

Comment #14: AlexanderBuinov  on  09/18  at  12:01 PM

The McCain campaign offers prizes for trolling liberal blogs.  Talk radio is dominated by right wing lunatics spouting Republican and neo-con propaganda.  It’s almost impossible to get through the screening process to actually state an opinion contrary to whatever line of crap the Republican party is putting out on a given day.  People call up liberal shows all the time with contrary opinion.

Somehow though, even daring to differ with the hate screeching masters of misinformation and manipulation is anti-free speech.

Comment #15: G Porgey  on  09/18  at  12:19 PM

Hey Alexander, you know why they’re called “trolls,” right? It’s because they don’t offer substantive arguments; they just show up to cheerlead for their side and rile up the opposition. Kind of what you did just now.

Comment #16: J.V.  on  09/18  at  12:24 PM

Obama Booey! Obama Booey!

I prefer Obama, Bomaye!

Comment #17: Cris  on  09/18  at  12:24 PM

Shorter Alexander: (loud whining noises)

Comment #18: Scott  on  09/18  at  12:30 PM

“It’s almost impossible to get through the screening process to actually state an opinion contrary to whatever line of crap the Republican party is putting out on a given day. “

I’m with G.Porgy on this one.  One should—if you can steel yourself to it—listen to right wing talk radio. Next to no dissenting voices are let on, and the ones that do are handpicked idiots, let through because they are verbal palookas whom the host can easily handle as a demonstration of How Right We Are And How Dumb They Are.  On the odd occasion I have heard somebody lucid slip through the net; these are dealt with by constant interruption, attacks and ignoring the point that the caller, and cutting them off quickly in order to restate the right wing talking point.  The Huffington experience with Norris is a good example of this “don’t let them get a damaging point in edgeways” school of so-called debate.

In many ways that, for me personally, is perhaps the most significant and admirable difference between Left and Right in America: the Right hates debate, stifles ideas other than its own and has a contempt for discussion as a vehicle to better understanding and shared comprehension.  That alone should and does make one oppose them.

Comment #19: seeker6079  on  09/18  at  01:14 PM

Did you know that the inquisitor quoted in the title of Jim’s blog is Jim’s dad, addressing Jim’s grandmother?

It’s true.

Comment #20: Roger Ailes  on  09/18  at  01:20 PM

So, apparently, any time someone calls and registers their displeasure with something, it’s actually a violation of other people’s first amendment rights.

No, not anytime. But when they’re doing so at the behest of a presidential campaign, and they’re unable to defend their assertions when they get knocked off the talking points they’re reading from the candidate’s official website, and the station is getting thousands of such identical calls… seems a bit odd to me. (I’m assuming you haven’t actually listened to the show in question, which is available at the link I provided.)

But hey, I’m sure you’d have no problem with McCain doing the same thing! wink

Well, as always, thanks for taking the time to respond.

Comment #21: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  01:31 PM

But hey, I’m sure you’d have no problem with McCain doing the same thing!

Uh, Republicans already do it.  They’ve been doing it for years.  You can go onto any right-wing site (like Focus on the Family) and send an automatic, identically worded e-mail to whoever they’re pissed off at that week. 

So complaining that Democrats are catching up and doing the same thing that Republicans have been doing is pretty hypocritical, don’t you think?

Comment #22: Mnemosyne  on  09/18  at  01:41 PM

Uh, Republicans have shut down the phone lines of a show talking about their presidential candidate? Uh, do you have a link for that? Uh, sorry to be a pest.

Comment #23: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  01:43 PM

Uh, sorry to be a pest.

If you were, you’d stop being a Republican.

Comment #24: Scott  on  09/18  at  01:53 PM

Hey, Jim Treacher, you’re going to explain how all of this is a First Amendment violation, right?

Comment #25: J.V.  on  09/18  at  01:59 PM

Uh, Republicans have shut down the phone lines of a show talking about their presidential candidate?  Uh, do you have a link for that?

Not quite, Mr. Treacher, we have something a little better.

Do you remember James Tobin, the RNC official convicted last year of helping a top state GOP official find someone to jam Democratic get-out-the-vote lines on Election Day 2002?

So, not content with merely expressing contrary opinions, Republicans are much fonder of actually messing with voting operations.  Honestly, aren’t you even capable of doing a little research?

And the ‘vermin’ reference was really hilarious, and not spiteful eliminationist rhetoric at all, you pathetic clown.

Comment #26: TruthOfAngels  on  09/18  at  01:59 PM

Well said, Scott.

As long as we’re talking about astroturfing, does the name David Axelrod mean anything to you folks?

Comment #27: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  02:01 PM

Hey, Jim Treacher, you’re going to explain how all of this is a First Amendment violation, right?

I don’t remember saying it was. It’s unethical, in my opinion, and such speech doesn’t seem very free when it’s coming directly from the candidate’s website. When the callers obviously haven’t thought about what they’re reading aloud. But again, I’ve actually listened to the show in question.

Comment #28: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  02:03 PM

And the ‘vermin’ reference was really hilarious, and not spiteful eliminationist rhetoric at all, you pathetic clown.

Eliminationist! My goodness. Well, could be.

Comment #29: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  02:05 PM

I just skimmed that Tobin link, and I agree that what he did was wrong. I couldn’t find the call letters of the radio station that the presidential campaign he worked for was targeting, though.

Comment #30: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  02:07 PM

Uh, Republicans have shut down the phone lines of a show talking about their presidential candidate? Uh, do you have a link for that? Uh, sorry to be a pest.

Thank you, Jim, for so aptly demonstrating that you have absolutely no clue what the word “astroturfing” means. I always thought that “A is an example of B, but A does not entail B” was a pretty basic logical construct that anyone could understand, but apparently not.

I’m sure your commentariat eats up your intellectual laziness and general cluelessness, but around here, that dog don’t hunt.

Comment #31: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  09/18  at  02:08 PM

I don’t remember saying it was. It’s unethical, in my opinion, and such speech doesn’t seem very free when it’s coming directly from the candidate’s website.

Better get out the fainting couch then—here’s where John McCain gives his supporters their talking points.

Or is the problem that Democrats are being big ol’ copycats and it’s just mean to use the same techniques against you that you’ve used against us for 15 years?

Comment #32: Mnemosyne  on  09/18  at  02:11 PM

I just skimmed that Tobin link, and I agree that what he did was wrong. I couldn’t find the call letters of the radio station that the presidential campaign he worked for was targeting, though.

Snort.  So, Mr. Treacher, you contend it’s more morally upright if you do it in a midterm election?  And if a radio station doesn’t happen to be involved?  And if you do something that’s actually illegal as opposed to merely annoying?  What a sad character you are.

Mind you, IOKIYAR, I suppose.

Comment #33: TruthOfAngels  on  09/18  at  02:14 PM

Thank you, Jim, for so aptly demonstrating that you have absolutely no clue what the word “astroturfing” means.

Well, please enlighten me. I was going by the Axelrod definition, but it sounds like you know better.

Better get out the fainting couch then—here’s where John McCain gives his supporters their talking points.

Is there another page where he targets specific shows, date, time, and station, and calls them evil liars who must be stopped? I realize it’s a fine point, but you have to remember that I’m a jackbooted thug.

Comment #34: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  02:17 PM

Snort.

Gesundheit.

So, Mr. Treacher, you contend it’s more morally upright if you do it in a midterm election?  And if a radio station doesn’t happen to be involved?  And if you do something that’s actually illegal as opposed to merely annoying?

I’m saying that I’m unaware of a presidential candidate doing something like this during a campaign, and doing it so brazenly. I’m not saying it’s right when anybody else does something similar. I’m just trying to understand the parallels being drawn. But I appreciate your patience and good humor.

Comment #35: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  02:21 PM

I’m just trying to understand the parallels being drawn.

Heh.  I doubt, Mr. Treacher, whether you are trying to understand anything at all.  You are certainly not capable of grasping a comparison between something that is illegal and something that is not, although that is not a surprising trait for a Republican in the Age of Bush.

But to conclude:

This is not very good trolling, all in all.  Perhaps you have a friend who could do it for you?  Speaking for myself, it is no fun to have a battle of wits with somebody who is so obviously unarmed.

Comment #36: TruthOfAngels  on  09/18  at  02:27 PM

Is there another page where he targets specific shows, date, time, and station, and calls them evil liars who must be stopped? I realize it’s a fine point, but you have to remember that I’m a jackbooted thug.

Uh-huh.  You sure are specific about your outrage, aren’t you?  It’s almost like you only get outraged when your political opponents turn your own tactics on you or something.

Comment #37: Mnemosyne  on  09/18  at  02:34 PM

I doubt, Mr. Treacher, whether you are trying to understand anything at all.

Well, I appreciate the accusation of bad faith. Have a pleasant day.

Comment #38: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  02:34 PM

Jim:

Is there another page where he targets specific shows, date, time, and station, and calls them evil liars who must be stopped? I realize it’s a fine point, but you have to remember that I’m a jackbooted thug.

I’m always amazed at people who can’t (or refuse to) tell the difference between plausible deniability and actual deniability. It’s almost like they’re complete and utter morons, or something.

I’m saying that I’m unaware of a presidential candidate doing something like this during a campaign, and doing it so brazenly. I’m not saying it’s right when anybody else does something similar.

The fact that you’re not saying it in exactly those words isn’t proof that you’re not saying it. Although I suppose that someone who is so deeply invested in asserting that “A is an example of B, therefore B = A” wouldn’t be able to reach that level of abstract thought.

Comment #39: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  09/18  at  02:35 PM

You sure are specific about your outrage, aren’t you?

I should be vague? We’re talking about a presidential campaign targeting a specific media outlet with thousands of callers reading off an official script. Granted, the fact that all campaigns have talking points is certainly a stunning insight.

Comment #40: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  02:37 PM

I’m always amazed at people who can’t (or refuse to) tell the difference between plausible deniability and actual deniability.

I know, right?

The fact that you’re not saying it in exactly those words isn’t proof that you’re not saying it.

Bad faith accusation #2. Have a good one.

Comment #41: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  02:39 PM

Jim, if you make the choice to say something that you want to say, it’s free speech.  The wholehearted abuse of the idea because you don’t like it is beyond dumb.

Comment #42: Jesse Taylor  on  09/18  at  02:41 PM

Well, I appreciate the accusation of bad faith.

Oh, I’m not accusing you of acting in bad faith, Mr. Treacher.  I’m accusing you of being a hypocrite.  That’s much worse.

Comment #43: TruthOfAngels  on  09/18  at  02:43 PM

I should be vague?

Should be?  Dude, you’re already there.

Let’s sum Jim up for a minute:  Illegally blocking calls from voters is “wrong,” but not nearly as outrageous as a campaign supplying talking points to supporters who voluntarily call into a radio talk show.

You really should see somebody about that timber in your eye, buddy.

Comment #44: Mnemosyne  on  09/18  at  02:46 PM

Jim, if you make the choice to say something that you want to say, it’s free speech.

Yeah, you’re free to read it off a presidential candidate’s website. And you’re free to be completely unable to defend your point when the host asks something that’s not on the script. Seriously, I encourage you to download the MP3 of the show in question from the WGN site. It’s well worth listening to if you want to have an informed discussion about what happened there.

Comment #45: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  02:49 PM

Illegally blocking calls from voters is “wrong,” but not nearly as outrageous as a campaign supplying talking points to supporters who voluntarily call into a radio talk show.

A presidential campaign supplying talking points and (in my opinion) fiery rhetoric about the radio show, saying, “Everybody needs to stop this guy from talking. Go, hurry!” Yeah, I do think that’s different, both in scale and in its very nature. (Sorry to be so rude and insulting about it.)

Comment #46: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  02:54 PM

Jim, how would calling into the show stop him from talking?

Rush Limbaugh’s been running a call-in show for years now.  Is his voice silenced because of the presence of a phone?

Comment #47: Jesse Taylor  on  09/18  at  02:56 PM

Yeah, I do think that’s different, both in scale and in its very nature.

So, again, encouraging people to voluntarily call into a radio show is worse than interfering with the voters’ ability to get to the polls on Election Day.

Wow.

Comment #48: Mnemosyne  on  09/18  at  02:58 PM

Yeah, you’re free to read it off a presidential candidate’s website. And you’re free to be completely unable to defend your point when the host asks something that’s not on the script. Seriously, I encourage you to download the MP3 of the show in question from the WGN site. It’s well worth listening to if you want to have an informed discussion about what happened there.

Um, you’re getting further away from your point.  They didn’t interfere with Freddoso speaking, because there’s a standing invite for anyone to call in to do exactly what they were, in fact, doing.

There’s no element of free speech which requires you to be infinitely (or even partially) informed in order to speak.

You’re pulling things out of your ass because you don’t like what people were saying.  That’s it.

Comment #49: Jesse Taylor  on  09/18  at  03:02 PM

Is it just me, or is today’s batch of trolls particularly stupid?  They keep saying ridiculous, easily disproven things (like saying a district attorney has no way to enforce a subpoena—huh?)

Geez, they may actually drive me to do some work today.  The stupid is too painful.

Comment #50: Mnemosyne  on  09/18  at  03:05 PM

Jim, how would calling into the show stop him from talking?

It kept callers who weren’t reading from the Obama website from getting through, and it sure seems to me like an attempt at intimidation. “We need to shut up Stanley Kurtz. Don’t engage in the argument he’s trying to make, because he’s evil. Just shout him down.”

How about this: If the official McCain site targeted Pangagon and you suddenly got thousands of comments saying the exact same thing, it’d be a bit tough to sort through all the crap to get to the people who were thinking for themselves, wouldn’t it? And wouldn’t you see it as an attempt to intimidate you into leaving McCain alone?

So, again, encouraging people to voluntarily call into a radio show is worse than interfering with the voters’ ability to get to the polls on Election Day.

So, again, I don’t remember saying that. I said it’s different. For one thing, this is a national election with, arguably, more at stake. And from what I understand, this Tobin fellow was punished (albeit insufficiently, we’re told). And even you take as a given that the despicable right-wingers are just as bad, I still think it’s wrong for the Obama campaign to do this. If he’s stooping to the Rethugs’ level, so much for the Audacity of Hope, huh?

But I understand that such fine distinctions are the purview of fascists such as myself.

Sorry to be such a nooge about it. I just saw that Jesse had linked to me and thought I’d have a look at the informed debate here. You guys have made some good points, and it’s entirely possible that I’m… what was it? An eliminationist? It’s certainly possible that I’m an eliminationist savage who can’t abide any opposing opinions. My bad, and for that I apologize.

Well, gotta go ruin America some more. Have a great day!

Comment #51: Jim Treacher  on  09/18  at  03:09 PM

Well, gotta go ruin America some more. Have a great day!

Nice to see one of them admit it.

Also: Shorter Jim Treacher’s last post: “Dammit, these guys are kicking my ass! Better bug outta here quick. I’ll come back sometime after midnight and declare Glorious Eternal Victory after they’ve all quit reading this thread…”

Comment #52: Scott  on  09/18  at  03:24 PM

The fact that you’re not saying it in exactly those words isn’t proof that you’re not saying it.

Bad faith accusation #2. Have a good one.

Well, if that isn’t the pot calling the kettle black, I don’t know what is. I’m sure it will come as quite a shock to you to know, Jim, that when everyone, including you, involved in the discussion knows perfectly well that your entire argument is based on transparent, ideologically motivated dishonesty, you don’t get to accuse others of arguing in bad faith.

Also, it’s hard to take someone seriously when they’re so pathologically incapable of dropping the self-consciously cultivated pompous prick act, even when they think (albeit mistakenly) that they have a valid point to make.

Comment #53: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  09/18  at  03:26 PM

If the official McCain site targeted Pangagon and you suddenly got thousands of comments saying the exact same thing

It’s happened more than a few times. Miraculously we’ve all survived the horror, and can now sit here and mock you.

Comment #54: Well, what?  on  09/18  at  03:27 PM

Er, well there weren’t “thousands” here at Pandagon, but larger-traffic sites do indeed receive tremendous volume of trolling so automated as to practically be spam.

Comment #55: Well, what?  on  09/18  at  03:28 PM

It kept callers who weren’t reading from the Obama website from getting through, and it sure seems to me like an attempt at intimidation.

Going back to my original post, any call to any line prevents someone else from getting through on that line at some point.  Ergo, all use of phones is inherently anti-free speech and objectively pro-fascist.  Fight the phones, Jim!

“We need to shut up Stanley Kurtz. Don’t engage in the argument he’s trying to make, because he’s evil. Just shout him down.”

No part of what was done here or in Kurtz’s case “shut anyone up”.  Calls are screened before they go on the air, and the show has the ability to not take any calls and let Kurtz and Freddoso speak even more.

How about this: If the official McCain site targeted Pangagon and you suddenly got thousands of comments saying the exact same thing, it’d be a bit tough to sort through all the crap to get to the people who were thinking for themselves, wouldn’t it? And wouldn’t you see it as an attempt to intimidate you into leaving McCain alone?

...No.  In that case, every time a conservative blog linked to me, it would be an act of intimidation, which is just stupid.  You’re arguing that every time someone who disagrees with me uses a forum that I set up to have people speak to me, they’re engaging in an act of intimidation.  Do you have any idea how dumb that sounds?

But I understand that such fine distinctions are the purview of fascists such as myself.

Who called you a fascist?

Comment #56: Jesse Taylor  on  09/18  at  03:28 PM

And wouldn’t you see it as an attempt to intimidate you into leaving McCain alone?

You clearly do not understand how web advertising works.

Jesse would be able to pay for another semester of school with the extra thousands of eyeballs Pandagon was getting.

Comment #57: Faye  on  09/18  at  04:01 PM

“We need to shut up Stanley Kurtz. Don’t engage in the argument he’s trying to make, because he’s evil. Just shout him down.”

Kurtz isn’t trying to make an argument.  He’s spreading lies.

I realize that lying over and over again about your opponents has been a successful tactic for you, but having people call in to refute the lies isn’t “suppressing free speech.”  If you’re going to lie, you have to expect people who know the truth to call you on it, and screaming “Free speech!” doesn’t magically turn your lies into the truth.  They’re still lies.

Comment #58: Mnemosyne  on  09/18  at  04:02 PM

He’s spreading lies.

And what, specifically, did Kurtz lie about in the interview?

Comment #59: CTD  on  09/18  at  04:36 PM

Mr. Treacher has not addressed one important point made by a couple of pandagon posters, that providing information to campaign supporters and urging them to disseminate it via the media is something both presidential campaigns are doing atm.

As G Porgey points out the McCain campaign actually awards prizes to people who post to blogs, write letters to the editor, etc.

At one point Mr. Treacher says persons acting at the “behest” of the Obama campaign “shut down” a radio station.  I see nothing in the reports of this event, nor on Obama’s website, suggesting the campaign instructed anybody to do anything.

I also can’t understand how a flood of phone calls could shut down a radio call-in show, since such shows always employ screeners.  The screeners may be required to work harder, but there’s nothing compelling them to put harassing callers through to the radio show.  Even if the callers somehow overwhelmed the screeners, that would have little effect on the hosts of the radio show itself, who could carry on regardless.

It seems to me this calls into question two basic assertions of Mr. Treacher’s blog post: (1) the Obama campaign is engaged in some kind of coordinated campaign to silence its critics; and (2) the Obama campaign’s actions have no analogue in the McCain camp.

Mr. Treacher, how do you respond?

Comment #60: ummeli  on  09/18  at  04:36 PM

Oh, boo hoo blubber blubber. Some right-wing jerk had to deal with people who disagree with him. It’s amazing that the same people who call for boycotts and blacklists can’t tolerate a few phone calls.

Comment #61: Bitter Scribe  on  09/18  at  04:44 PM

Yeah, I’m not seeing how this could be interpreted as violating the First Amendment even in some wacky alternate universe where radio shows don’t screen their calls.  As far as I can tell, hundreds of people gathering to voice their opinion is pretty neatly covered by both freedom of speech and “the right of the people peaceably to assemble.”

Comment #62: Shaenon  on  09/18  at  05:57 PM

It’s just more of the usual right-whine bullshit.  “You’re censoring me by disagreeing!  Waaah!”

I’m guessing Milt Rosenberg managed to get his point of view out, despite the army of Obamanist fascists trying to subvert his free speech by accepting his invitation to call him.

Comment #63: Jrod  on  09/18  at  05:58 PM

And what, specifically, did Kurtz lie about in the interview?

Kurtz claims that the fact that Obama worked on several education boards with William Ayers proves that Obama approves of everything the Weathermen did, even though Ayers committed his crimes when Obama was 8 years old.

You guys have really got to stop living in the 1960s and move on to the 21st century.  The only people who care about Ayers are right-wing nutjobs who still see Commies under their beds.  Everyone else who hears, “Obama is friends with a former Weatherman!” is going to think you’re talking about a meteorologist.

Tell you what—find me the pictures of 8-year-old Obama planting bombs with Ayers. Until you have that, you can make all of the snotty insinuations that you want, but you’ve got nothing.  Right-wingers have been desperately pimping this story for six months and no one gives a shit but you.

Oh, and if you’re upset about people being too friendly with terrorists, you might want to look in your own backyard.  Or is terrorism okay as long as it’s against people you disagree with?

Comment #64: Mnemosyne  on  09/18  at  06:07 PM

Oh, here’s another convicted criminal hired by the Bush administration.  And here’s the Republicans’ favorite terrorist, Luis Carriles.

So Bush’s favorite terrorist kills 73 people.  Bill Ayers kills zero.  Yeah, that’s the same thing.

Comment #65: Mnemosyne  on  09/18  at  06:17 PM

How about this: If the official McCain site targeted Pangagon and you suddenly got thousands of comments saying the exact same thing, it’d be a bit tough to sort through all the crap to get to the people who were thinking for themselves, wouldn’t it? And wouldn’t you see it as an attempt to intimidate you into leaving McCain alone? 

Trolls intimidating us?  The trolls galvanize us, make us break out the fire and vitriol, ‘cos any geek worth a copper piece knows how to dispose of a troll.

Well, gotta go ruin America some more. Have a great day!

I call this troll dodge the Snagglepuss Gambit : “Exit stage right!”

Comment #66: Big Bad Bald Bastard  on  09/18  at  07:14 PM

Trolls take up valuable time that could be spent doing other things—sharing ideas and stories and strategies, for example.

When canvassing we were warned about live trolls who eat up a lot of your time making you talk about your candidate over and over again when you know and they know they’ll never in a million years vote for them.  They like the head games, and they know that if you’re spending the afternoon talking to them you can’t get to talk to others in the neighborhood who may be more open to your ideas.

Comment #67: Cynthia  on  09/18  at  08:22 PM

I haven’t heard the Freddoso segment.  I actually listened to the Kurtz program for a post a couple of weeks back. Rosenberg comes off as an amiable guy, but he or whomever booked Kurtz just didn’t check him out and the challenges to his charges before inviting him on late the night before.  Some of the callers could have been sharper, but they were concerned citizens, not trained surrogates, and they were polite (one guy got heated near the end of his call).  The Obama site listed several key points, asked people to be civil, and the e-mail they sent out gave far more detail on Kurtz, his shoddy “scholarship” and his ridiculous charges. (One of the staffers at the show does read the short list from Obama on the air.)  The wingnut squawking on this is ridiculous.  The callers were just exercising their First Amendment rights, not taking Kurtz’ rights away from him, although he tries to play the persecuted martyr in extremely whiny fashion.  As usual, there’s a qualitative difference at work here - Kurtz was trafficking in warmed over smears and guilt-by-association, while all of the information the Obama campaign provided was accurate.  Listen to the first 5-10 minutes of the show if you dare.  Kurtz is less convincing than Jonah Goldberg.  Most of his shtick comes in insinuation form – “I’m not saying [something negative about Obama], but...”  Kurtz of course ignores that by his own standards, all the Republicans on the same board must sympathize with the Weather Underground’s politics.  But it’s not as if scholarship was ever his aim.  He’s just trying to scare conservative-leaning and independent whites by implying Obama is a 60s radical.  Kurtz is entitled to say whatever he wants, of course, but just as with his screeds against gay marriage and feminism, it’s folly to pretend he’s anything other than a hack.  As long as media outlets treat him otherwise, sure, he should be challenged.  Callers should be civil, and more in-depth research is never bad, but wow, how scandalous to call a show that solicits calls.

Comment #68: Batocchio  on  09/19  at  05:23 AM

Kurtz claims that the fact that Obama worked on several education boards with William Ayers proves that Obama approves of everything the Weathermen did, even though Ayers committed his crimes when Obama was 8 years old.

For one, you said “lies,” plural. You seem to have only come up with a single “lie.”

Having now listened to the interview in its entirety (You have done that, right? Else how could you know what Kurtz “lied” about?) you certainly won’t mind posting the time in the interview when Kurtz makes the claim that Obama approves of everything the Weathermen did.

I’ll be waiting.

Comment #69: CTD  on  09/19  at  12:14 PM

Having now listened to the interview in its entirety (You have done that, right? Else how could you know what Kurtz “lied” about?) you certainly won’t mind posting the time in the interview when Kurtz makes the claim that Obama approves of everything the Weathermen did.

I know that you guys love to think that no one understands what you’re talking about when you talk about Obama’s “terrorist connections” and what you want people to think when they hear that phrase, but it’s pretty transparent.  You’re like a five-year-old who thinks that if he says he didn’t take a cookie he’ll be able to fool his mom into not realizing he took a brownie instead.

Comment #70: Mnemosyne  on  09/19  at  01:25 PM

OK. I’ll take that as “I never bothered listening to the interview. I have no idea what specific claims Kurtz may have made in it, and I certainly can’t point to an instance of him saying or even implying that ‘Obama approves of everything the Weathermen did’.  When I said Kurtz was spreading lies in the interview I was just making stuff up and assuming nobody here would call me on it.”

PS: I don’t recall ever saying anything about anyone’s “terrorist connections,” so I assume you’re not quoting me there.

Comment #71: CTD  on  09/19  at  01:55 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.