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Next entry: Belated Mad Men Monday: “Hawt U.N.C.L.E.” Previous entry: Rich wingnuts are usually true believers

Libertarianism is fundamentally anti-human

I have some more observations from this New Yorker article about the brothers Koch and the immense, scary influence they have on the political system.  A lot of stuff in here isn’t that surprising if you’re paying close attention—-the self-aggrandizing to distract from the immorality of libertarianism, the astroturfing, the racist history, the obscene amounts of money spent to manipulate the political system, the delusional rhetoric about global warming.  But even I was surprised to read about the display at the Smithsonian.

The David H. Koch Hall of Human Origins, at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History, is a multimedia exploration of the theory that mankind evolved in response to climate change. At the main entrance, viewers are confronted with a giant graph charting the Earth’s temperature over the past ten million years, which notes that it is far cooler now than it was ten thousand years ago. Overhead, the text reads, “HUMANS EVOLVED IN RESPONSE TO A CHANGING WORLD.” The message, as amplified by the exhibit’s Web site, is that “key human adaptations evolved in response to environmental instability.” Only at the end of the exhibit, under the headline “OUR SURVIVAL CHALLENGE,” is it noted that levels of carbon dioxide are higher now than they have ever been, and that they are projected to increase dramatically in the next century. No cause is given for this development; no mention is made of any possible role played by fossil fuels. The exhibit makes it seem part of a natural continuum. The accompanying text says, “During the period in which humans evolved, Earth’s temperature and the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere fluctuated together.” An interactive game in the exhibit suggests that humans will continue to adapt to climate change in the future. People may build “underground cities,” developing “short, compact bodies” or “curved spines,” so that “moving around in tight spaces will be no problem.”

This is part of an overarching strategy of replacing actual science with pseudo-science.  What’s interesting to me is the “having it both ways” aspect of this—-the Koches fund all sorts of global warming denialism, but then also hedge their bets by suggesting that global warming isn’t so bad.  This is far from the only example.

David Koch told New York that he was unconvinced that global warming has been caused by human activity. Even if it has been, he said, the heating of the planet will be beneficial, resulting in longer growing seasons in the Northern Hemisphere. “The Earth will be able to support enormously more people because far greater land area will be available to produce food,” he said.

This is, of course, pure nonsense.  Growing food is about factors coming together, and heat is just one of them—-it’s also sunshine and fertility.  Increasing desertification of some parts of the planet will not have a corresponding effect of giving northern climates more sunshine, even if they do get warmer in the aggregate. The overwhelming evidence shows that rising temperatures will likely lead to mass starvation.  Also, there’s no certainty that humans will always adapt.  We can, you know, die off.  It happens.  Ask the dinosaurs. 

But what all this points to is a very serious problem for libertarianism, whether Christian or secular.  As I noted earlier, libertarianism tends to spring up when you start to believe human beings exist to serve systems and institutions, and not vice versa.  But our system of government was laid out explicitly on the grounds that institutions serve human beings—-basically, the founders were backed by a humanist philosophy.  If you disagree, let me point you to the Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,


Rights exist because of people.  Government exists because of people.  Markets exist because of people, and if those markets stop working for people, they should be modified until they do.  Libertarians take an opposite view, which is that their institutions—-free markets for seculars, free markets plus the patriarchy plus the church for Christian libertarians—-have the right of way when they come into conflict with the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of The People.  Pollution is no reason, in their view, to introduce environmental regulation.  Economic crashes shouldn’t result in economic regulation.  We’re all supposed to just see that as the way the cookie crumbles. 

But of course, they can’t just say that bluntly too often in the public square, because it’s basically against all the founding principles of our democracy.*  What they do instead is engage in a lot of hand-waving arguments about how their principles actually dovetail with humanist goals, by denying that pollution hurts people or suggesting that unfettered capitalism does the most good for the most people.  And, as long as they can spin bullshit infinitely, this works more than it should.  The mainstream media particularly likes to kick around bullshit arguments about how restricting social services or cutting taxes for the rich are actually somehow good for those with fewer means.  But then, once in awhile, libertarian dancing around humanist principles comes into direct conflict with humanism.  Which is the case with the environment. 

There is a bald, fact-based problem for libertarians.  Global warming is real, it’s caused by human activity that goes straight back to the capitalist energy markets they worship, and it is really bad.  None of these things are up for debate with sensible, reality-based people.  Even if you’re generally sympathetic to the claims that government regulation of markets and corporations somehow constrains freedom, the need to save the species from killing ourselves off for short term gain comes would cause a sensible person to suggest this requires government action.  The conflict between libertarianism and the humanism that is supposed to guide our system has been made explicit.

And so libertarians are forced to deny the science.  They’re willing to sacrifice the planet for their bullshit principles, so of course the truth is no big thing.

What’s interesting to me about the Smithsonian display is that even as it’s using fake science to excuse blatant disregard for human decency, the libertarian underpinnings shine through.  After all, to say, “Global warming is no big deal because human beings will evolve into underground hunchbacks to survive it,” is to basically say that the amount of suffering and loss to get to that point is acceptable.  Evolution is an ugly, inhumane process.  It requires weeding out those who don’t have the adaptive genes, which is a nice way of saying they’ll die.  For the amount of evolution that they expect to happen at the rate they claim it will happen, you’d be looking at mass death on a level that would be tantamount to an extinction.  The people that emerge may not even be the same species as we are.  And that’s if this prediction happened—-odds are high that it wouldn’t.  Natural selection is no guarantee.  You still have to have the genetic mutations occur.  But the point remains—-even in their apologist fantasies, the mass of humanity is so much human offal to be killed off in service of their bullshit principles about how environmental regulation is tyranny.

*Interestingly, Christian libertarians actually do a better job of secular libertarians at getting around this problem.  They basically demonize humanism, and blatantly argue that the principles they stand for were laid down by god.  Therefore, if people are sacrificed for their principles, that’s what god wanted.  However, their arguments have limited appeal, because very few people in a democratic system are willing to blatantly argue that policies should be based around a set of arbitrary principles supposedly handed down by god instead of the common good. So even Christian libertarians end up engaging in the same kind of hand-waving, in public at least.  In their own circles, they’re open about how many people they’ll screw over for their principles.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:09 PM • (145) Comments

“After all, to say, “Global warming is no big deal because human beings will evolve into underground hunchbacks to survive it,” is to basically say that the amount of suffering and loss to get to that point is acceptable.”

So, we’re all going to turn into Morlocks?  Maybe just the proles…

Downside: We’ll be hideous troglodytes with pale skin who live underground.

Upside: If the Eloi (descendants of Wall Streeters, no doubt) exist too, there’ll plenty of good eating.  Once you’ve had Eloi, nothing else really measures up…

Comment #1: MikeEss  on  08/23  at  06:39 PM

This is part of an overarching strategy of replacing actual science with pseudo-science.

I came out of the article with something even worse than that—they’re trying to replace actual skepticism with pseudo-skepticism:

In a 2002 memo, the Republican political consultant Frank Luntz wrote that so long as “voters believe there is no consensus about global warming within the scientific community” the status quo would prevail. The key for opponents of environmental reform, he said, was to question the science—a public-relations strategy that the tobacco industry used effectively for years to forestall regulation. The Kochs have funded many sources of environmental skepticism, such as the Heritage Foundation, which has argued that “scientific facts gathered in the past 10 years do not support the notion of catastrophic human-made warming.”

Edward Bernays pioneered this pseudo-skepticism on behalf of the tobacco industry in the early 20th century, and movement conservatives have followed in the footsteps of unscrupulous corporate executives ever since.

Real skepticism (the kind aimed at grifters) is steadily being debased into PR FUD (the kind aimed at peer-reviewed scholars and scientists), with a touch of McCawberism and Buddy Jesus thrown in for the rubes.

Comment #2: Gracchus.  on  08/23  at  06:39 PM

The underground hunchback thing seems like really irresponsible presentation of scientific issues, but I didn’t even think of what it meant socially: mass death. 

The rigidness of libertarian ideology is noted in the Non-Libertarian FAQ as well.  The author argues that while most people can change their opinions when the facts change, libertarians have to hold to “markets are superior” in nearly every case or else their whole ideology is wrong.

Comment #3: Dylan  on  08/23  at  06:49 PM

“But the point remains—-even in their apologist fantasies, the mass of humanity is so much human offal to be killed off in service of their bullshit principles about how environmental regulation is tyranny.”

...but Amanda, you say that like it’s a bad thing, rather than further proof that those at the top are our natural betters and are entitled to keep themselves alive (and on top), even at the cost of all others. 

They are blessed by nature with superior intellects and work ethics, so of course they’ve risen to become the highest caste of humanity.  Why do you hate Evolution?...

Comment #4: MikeEss  on  08/23  at  06:51 PM

This makes me think of how potentially violent wingnuts, a la mcveigh, cling to Jefferson’s “water the tree of liberty” quote. It seems to me they get it ass backwards. Jefferson meant that if the government designed in the 18th century no longer suited the needs of the people, then a revolution to set up a new government should occur. to wingnuts, since the 18th century standard of government doesn’t work in a modern world, they think we should have a revolution against the people to try to make them function under an 18th century government.

There is also a weird relationship that secular libertarians have with evolution. evolution is something that happened/is happening, but not some sort of moral code. In fact, taken to its extreme, “survival of the fittest” is repugnantly immoral in societies that have the resources to do better.

Comment #5: alysia  on  08/23  at  06:52 PM

Like I said in an earlier thread, humans are both social beings and individuals. Libertarianism does not work because it fails to recognize the social part of human nature just like Communism didn’t work because it could not recognize the need for individualism. Now some humans are completely anti-social and have no need for social contact and others have no need for any sort of individualism but most humans need both. Since libertarianism places the individual above all, it is bound to fail when the needs of the many outweigh individual desire like in the case of climate change and other environmental problems.

  The other problem is that libertarianism like Marxism is based on a platonic ideal and can’t adjust itself when it fails. Communists couldn’t recognize when the market was a necessity and libertarians can’t recognize when government solutions are required.

Comment #6: Lee  on  08/23  at  06:52 PM

Upside: If the Eloi (descendants of Wall Streeters, no doubt) exist too, there’ll plenty of good eating.  Once you’ve had Eloi, nothing else really measures up…

One more upside, according to the good folks from the Koch family’s wingnut welfare outpost at George Mason:

In 1997, for instance, the E.P.A. moved to reduce surface ozone, a form of pollution caused, in part, by emissions from oil refineries. Susan Dudley, an economist who became a top official at the Mercatus Center, criticized the proposed rule. The E.P.A., she argued, had not taken into account that smog-free skies would result in more cases of skin cancer.

Just think how much less skin cancer there would be if we lived permanently in caves!

Comment #7: Gracchus.  on  08/23  at  06:54 PM

Even if you’re generally sympathetic to the claims that government regulation of markets and corporations somehow constrains freedom…

Its the “freedom” of billionaires to make as much money as possible as opposed to the “freedom” of everyone else to live.

Comment #8: Kwillow  on  08/23  at  06:57 PM

Part of the reason the media love libertarianism is the “everything is exactly the opposite of what it seems” mentality. Saying that providing services to the poor really hurts the poor, etc sounds super smart and edgy.

Libertarianism also has an oracle at delphi quality to it. Like no matter how we try, women, the poor, minorities, the environment etc wind up getting screwed because that is what the market hath predicted. So no matter what action is taken, somehow that son that you ordered your servant to kill will come back and take your thrown.

Comment #9: alysia  on  08/23  at  06:59 PM

If your descendants can’t evolve to cope with changes that are the natural result of The Invisible Hand of the Marketplace working as it should, then they have become Lebensunwertes Leben, so nature will render her judgement against them — which we are bound to respect…

Comment #10: MikeEss  on  08/23  at  06:59 PM

Libertarian logic can border on brain bending. I know someone—early 20s, grew up homeschooled iirc—who used to work as a door-to-door salesman for both Verizon and Comcast. Among other things, after the Prop 8 decision came down, he asked me if I was comfortable having the law in the hands of a few powerful people—my response was that even referenda had to be constitutional. He also is convinced that salary is a matter to be kept between employee and employer.

Anyway, in the context of one debate he asked how my ideology (democratic socialist) would benefit him as a salesperson. The obvious answers, of course: union-represented collective bargaining, better benefits package, protection from arbitrary firing, and a guaranteed salary on top of his commission. His responses were… weird. As far as the guaranteed salary, he felt it was a good thing that he was free to not go to work and that the company was free to not pay him for not doing it. He said he’d done nothing to deserve firing (I think he just blew off the “arbitrary” bit) and said that an employer should be able to fire anyone for any reason. I told him outright that he was going against his own economic interest, and thought to myself “How considerate of you to think of your employer’s feelings like that.”

He also seems fond of someone named Wayne Allen Root; I’ve never gotten an answer from him as to why Root is someone I should be listening to, and when he posted a link to an article on ClownHall about racial profiling, I just said “Protip: Posting links to TownHall ensures you will not be taken seriously.”

I can’t follow that logic. It’s a clear demonstration of how libertarians all think they’ll be the ones to come out on top, and even after all these years of reading political blogs this was the first time it became clear to me that libertarianism is not just solipsistic but outright self-destructive. (And he’s still posting random libertarian screeds on Facebook. He’s been called out for trolling a couple of times and it’s beyond self-parody at this point—I can’t be bothered.)

Comment #11: BrianX  on  08/23  at  07:08 PM

“Libertarianism also has an oracle at delphi quality to it.”

...the resulting gibberish can be interpreted which ever way benefits best the person asking the questions? 

Or, whatever you hear is the result of someone getting high on ethylene fumes, and it’s worth exactly what you would expect if it originated from someone high on ethylene fumes?...

Comment #12: MikeEss  on  08/23  at  07:13 PM

I used to hang out with some really reasonable self-identified Libertarians who, looking back, I think only adopted the identifier because they were adamantly in favor of legalizing marijuana.

I think that what made them appear reasonable to me was their willingness to accept social welfare programs as a necessary part of society.  Libertarianism and socialism should breed. Individual, equal rights and government regulation and social safety nets. Seems like the most reasonable option, and we’re not terribly far from it. I’ve had enough of this anti-regulation bullshit, though. Regulations are absolutely necessary.

Great post.

Comment #13: April  on  08/23  at  07:19 PM

Well aren’t you just a smarty-pants!  Ask the dinosaurs?  How are we supposed to do that - there aren’t any dinosaurs any more!  And I bet they didn’t even speak English anyway!

Comment #14: libdevil  on  08/23  at  07:25 PM

Another thing I’ve been thinking—it’s pretty obvious how big-L libertarianism is a non-starter. Not that many of them put much public support behind the ACLU.

Comment #15: BrianX  on  08/23  at  07:29 PM

Maybe I just don’t hang around very political people, but I always thought calling oneself a libertarian was a quick and easy way for a biglaw/finance guy to let you know he was down with doing some coke in the bathroom.

Comment #16: John Joel Glanton  on  08/23  at  07:34 PM

I love climate change is framed as a CHALLENGE.  The reason dinosaurs didn’t survive was because they weren’t producers!  If only they’d read “Who Moved My Cheese”.

If there’s something that makes me tear my hair out almost as much as conservatives’ understanding of their protections under the First Amendment, it’s libertarians’ understanding of evolution, which boils down to “anyone who has it worse off than me is worse than me and it’s important for them to die.”  They all believe that, to be where they are, they had to emerge the victor of a cutthroat darwinian struggle.  I’m sure the Koch brothers believe they’d be the first to develop into underground hunchbacks, because they’re survivors dammit.

Comment #17: ryang  on  08/23  at  07:38 PM

Libertarianism is fundamentally anti-human

Which is really sad, because a political philosophy centered around liberty should be the most human-centric game in town. If the liberty of people counted for anything against the liberty of mega-corporations, that is.

Comment #18: Scott Butler  on  08/23  at  07:38 PM

Libertarianism and socialism should breed. Individual, equal rights and government regulation and social safety nets.

They already have April, it’s called “contemporary social liberalism” or “social democracy” or what have you.

Comment #19: typist  on  08/23  at  07:48 PM

BrianX at 11: Libertarians of all stripes tend towards fact-immune, its almost as if they had a vaccination against logic and reason. Conservatives in general seem fact immune but libertarians possess a very bad case of the disease. The most fiscally conservative health care position possible is Medicare for All, not only would it work better than private insurance but it would save the America government and therefore, the American tax payer, a lot of money. Yet libertarians oppose it because “ZOMG, socialized medicine is teh evil” regardless of all evidence to the contrary.

Comment #20: Lee  on  08/23  at  07:49 PM

Typist -The political ideology that you are looking for is Modern Liberalism. Well, its not really modern. Its been around since the 1880s. It had its hey day in America between the election of FDR and LBJ. FDR’s belief that a “necessitous man is not a free man” sums up modern liberalism pretty well.

Comment #21: Lee  on  08/23  at  07:51 PM

So is the pastey underground hunchback the new libertarian superman?
Not quite Gary Cooper, but… OK.

Comment #22: Isabella  on  08/23  at  07:57 PM

Lee:

I think it’s the self-destructiveness of it that bothers me. Someone really willing to give up collective bargaining on a principle that has no economic benefit for them? Even allowing for the bad rap unions have these days, that doesn’t make sense, at least once the facts are explained.

Comment #23: BrianX  on  08/23  at  08:06 PM

I finally got to read Mayer’s piece.  It’s sickening but really confirms what I have always thought, and that is that your run-of-the-mill libertarian and right wing republican is nothing but a useful idiot being laughed at by the people who pull their little puppet strings.  They’re a joke.

The Koch’s and other superwealthy families in this country funding this shit, are not a joke.  they’re very dangerous and will cause much death, destruction, and suffering and frankly, they ain’t even begun yet.

But the tea partier, the libertarian, the right wing republican voter?

A joke.  That’s the one thing I have in common with these puke Koch people.

We laugh at the same morons.

It’s the only thing we have in common.

Comment #24: JennyLI  on  08/23  at  08:08 PM

AnglScarlett:

Of course, these are the same sorts of people (Rupert Murdoch for example) that manufacture outrage over salaries of public employees (seriously, if a cop puts in enough overtime for a six-figure salary, who cares as long as the work is done) so that people won’t wonder why private sector employees are getting shafted.

Comment #25: BrianX  on  08/23  at  08:14 PM

Libertarianism simply attempts to provide philosophical and ethical cover for sociopathy.

Comment #26: DrDick  on  08/23  at  08:15 PM

Brian I hate those stories!  About three times a year Newsday does a big-splash expose about just that - it’s either the teachers, the school adminstrators, the cop, whoever, the usual suspects.  And they “expose” just what you said.  ANd the general reaction seems to be “HOW DARE this worker make 100 thousand dollars!”

I always feel like banging my head against the wall.  Recently, Atrios found some story where people were actually up in arms over bus drivers making 36 k a year.  I mean, wtf?  Why shouldn’t a bus driver make 36k a year?  With the shit they must have to put up, they deserve a big raise. 

It’s crazy.  Just crazy.

Comment #27: JennyLI  on  08/23  at  08:23 PM

I tried to explain that point to someone in a debate once. I used to work in a bookstore, where my specialized knowledge of cooking and computers was worth… $7.25 an hour. Ask a libertarian, I’m getting exactly what I deserve because I didn’t go shopping for a better wage. Ask someone who actually does the job… yeah. Not remotely enough.

Try to explain to a libertarian that corporate anti-labor policies are intentionally depressing the market value of the average worker? Good luck with that…

Comment #28: BrianX  on  08/23  at  08:30 PM

MikeEss @#1: That was the first thought that struck me, too.

After taking their societal blueprints from Kafka and Orwell, I suppose shouldn’t be surprised they’re also optioning the dystopias of HG Wells. But The Time Machine? You’d think libertarians would be all over The Food of the Gods, only John Galt would be the one financing its creation, and it would only be available to the uber-producers who would then grow physically large enough to eat anyone else at one bite.

I imagine this is all just latent resentment for Darwin proving they’re all just bad monkeys, and descendants of same.

Comment #29: Yamara  on  08/23  at  08:30 PM

April @ 13:

“Libertarianism and socialism should breed. Individual, equal rights and government regulation and social safety nets.”

You’re in luck - there’s already a political philosophy that advocates this.  It’s called liberalism.  wink

Comment #30: Clone6  on  08/23  at  08:31 PM

Shoot, Typist got there before me!

Comment #31: Clone6  on  08/23  at  08:33 PM

Libertarians believe in Liberty and Freedom for Themselves only. Everyone else can and should just die.

Comment #32: Kwillow  on  08/23  at  08:40 PM

a political philosophy centered around liberty should be the most human-centric game in town

Yeah, it always has been kind of a shame that “libertarianism” got appropriated by the neo-feudalists.

Comment #33: Dan  on  08/23  at  08:40 PM

I feel like their stance on guns contains similar “weeding out” ideas.  the only hardy survivors of the coming apocalypse will be the ones with guns, etc.  It’s just a weird offshoot of the “people deserve to suffer for their sins as I define them” mentality.

Comment #34: SoylentH  on  08/23  at  08:52 PM

BrianX, worse its a very special type of self-destructiveness. A self-destructiveness born out of an intense, madly wrong desire not to have to be dependent on anybody for your success. They still like having scape goats to blame for their failure though. Government, minorities, and others are the scape goats for libertarians. Same with social insurance programs. These people are nuts.

Comment #35: Lee  on  08/23  at  09:01 PM

The question remains this: what do we do about Christian and secular libertarians? They exist, they have a constitutional right to their views, they have a right to raise their children to be libertarians (unless we go for a really broad reading of the child abuse statutes), and they have a right to vote politicians that fit their preferences into office). Their choice in politicians have demonstrated that they are willing to lie in order to win elections and that let the chaos loose on the United States and the world. Pointing out their craziness only works so much, especially since most voters are not political junkies and its hard to reach them.

  Some have suggested letting them win and waiting them to wreck so much havoc that they will loose elections in favor of the opposition. I’d prefer not go this route. The amount of evil that they could do is non-trivial. Also the American political system has enough quirks to give libertarians powers to derail liberals and progressives even as a minority. Plus, when they lose they form outfits like the Tea Party to gin up opposition to reform.

  The problem is I can’t see a way to defeat them that isn’t a massive civil rights abuse and violation of the Constitution, since lets face it there are tens of millions of Americans that agree with libertarianism in one way or another and liberals and progressives are probably not going to win enough seats in the various legislatures and hold enough executive positions to impose reform universally across the United States.

Comment #36: Lee  on  08/23  at  09:13 PM

Libertarianism simply attempts to provide philosophical and ethical cover for sociopathy.

*nods emphatically* In-fucking-deed.

Also: People may build “underground cities,” developing “short, compact bodies” or “curved spines,” so that “moving around in tight spaces will be no problem.”

Guess shorties like me will have an easier time of it. I bet I won’t even have to hunch over. Suck it, beanpoles!

Comment #37: Alison  on  08/23  at  09:34 PM

#38:  Oh look, a libertarian spam-bot.  A real libertarian “anti-abortionist” would say “free contraceptives for all!” as the ultimate in baby-saving tactics.  But nooooooooooo…..

It’s very peculiar how so many IT-types subscribe: haven’t they noticed they’re breathing the same air as everybody else?

Comment #38: Eric_RoM  on  08/23  at  09:57 PM

50 million?? Wow…we must get up very early in the morning.

And yes, it is most definitely anti-human of us to care about the actual borned and grown girls and women in those scenarios as opposed to the blobs of cells. We’re crazy.

Comment #39: Alison  on  08/23  at  09:57 PM

“you have 50 million dead unborn babies under yout belt to prove it.”

...‘cause only liberals have ever gotten abortions.  Conservative abortions either don’t count, or a conservative woman has never sought and received an abortion, ever, in the whole history of mankind, right?

Besides, if you’re going to pull that number out of your ass, why not go the full wingnut and add in all miscarriages, loss of any fertilized eggs, and hell, why not add in all unfertilized eggs too?  After all, Baby Jesus cries every time a perfectly good, ripe, but unfertilized egg gets tossed out on a pad/tampon, because it indicates that God’s instructions to “Go forth and multiply!” were not taken as literally as they should be.

The way I figure it (roughly), you could blame “liberalism” for billions, maybe even trillions, of “dead unborn babies”.  Makes just as much sense as the rest of your bullshit…

Comment #40: MikeEss  on  08/23  at  10:05 PM

50 million fetuses? Not enough. We need more of that good, good sashimi.

Comment #41: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  08/23  at  10:12 PM

Well, if we don’t save all those dead unborn babies under our belts, we won’t have them for nourishment once we moved into the Koch Caves!

Comment #42: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/23  at  10:13 PM

...back on topic, why do I get that feeling that “CHRIS2” could pull the trigger on 50-million living, breathing, born Americans who are in the way of implementing our glorious Randian paradise and not even shed a tear, especially if many of those people were “liberals”?...

Comment #43: MikeEss  on  08/23  at  10:16 PM

It’s very peculiar how so many IT-types subscribe: haven’t they noticed they’re breathing the same air as everybody else?

For the same reason that so many IT types are singularitarians—they think that anything they can do in the purely mathematical world of the computer can be mirrored in the real world. I think the fact that a computer programmer can do a tremendous amount of work with some well-chosen libraries and glue code factors into it too—most programming techniques rely on varying forms of code and data encapsulation, so the average programmer doesn’t have to do a whole lot of heavy lifting to get a lot of functionality. The result is that without much focus on outside experience, computer types sometimes look at the rest of the world as a series of things that should be black boxes with no messy side effects, and shape their political views accordingly. Considering many geeks are socially challenged to begin with, crankery is an easy route to follow, because they can avoid things that are logically nondeterministic, at least from their point of view.

#38:

Sure, fifty million more unwanted children with indifferent parents…

Comment #44: BrianX  on  08/23  at  10:20 PM

Wasn’t Ayn Rand both an atheist and pro-choice?  I thought I read a quote of hers that equated forced birth with “rape by the State” or something like that.  How do fundie Libertarians deal with the cognitive dissonance?

Comment #45: Dr. Locrian  on  08/23  at  10:21 PM

The problem with crossbreeding Libertarianism with Socialism is that the offspring have a one in four chance of coming out with an unregulated marketplace and the social liberties of East Germany.  Case in point, China.

Seriously, though, the reason Libertarianism and Socialism have elements in common is because they are both derivatives of Liberalism.  Also, as is pointed out above, they both fail in the same way: by making people servants to their institutions, rather than vice versa (or as one famous Liberal put it, “whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness”).

About the “short, compact bodies” of the post-global warming Morlocks: isn’t it actually a cold climate that is supposed to favor compact bodies with good heat retention, while elongated bodies have better heat exchange and thus do better in hot climates (Inuit vs. Maasai)?

Comment #46: Dr. Psycho  on  08/23  at  10:25 PM

Dr. Locrian:

Much like the Bible, they don’t take Rand completely at her word either.

Comment #47: BrianX  on  08/23  at  10:28 PM

Chris2:

The “immoral” behavior was going on at least to the beginning of the twentieth century, and people not having changed drastically over the course of recorded history, has probably been going on since before someone who decided it was immoral. Now go suck a dick. You know you want to.

Comment #48: BrianX  on  08/23  at  10:31 PM

Oh NO! Not the slut-and-whores! Jeebus spare us!

Seriously, how is it libertarian to rant about how other people’s private sexual decisions have brought society to its knees? Not following that thought process at all.

Comment #49: sophronia  on  08/23  at  10:37 PM

50 million dead babies under my belt?  No wonder my pants don’t fit.

Comment #50: Ledasmom  on  08/23  at  10:41 PM

just think if all those dead babies had lived chris might have had some friends so he wouldn’t have to take out the aggression built up through loneliness trolling websites with his stupid opinions that those very friends could have disabused him of.


oh no wait, that’s his fantasy.

Comment #51: pharmakos  on  08/23  at  10:44 PM

“Wasn’t Ayn Rand both an atheist and pro-choice?” 

True, and interestingly she denied being a libertarian too.  She was an Objectivist™, and resented comparison of Objectivism and Libertarianism.  Of course, to any outsider, Objectivism is just Libertarianism flavored with cartons of cigarettes and gallons of gin and smelling like one of those perfumes only an old lady would wear…

“How do fundie Libertarians deal with the cognitive dissonance?”

I would guess they do something similar to what they do to reconcile being “Pro Life” with supporting Capital Punishment and endless, bloody, foreign wars:  Massive self-deception and self-imposed ignorance…in other words Doublethink…

Comment #52: MikeEss  on  08/23  at  10:45 PM

We could drop condoms and contraceptives out of the sky and there would still 1.3 million abortions per year in the U.S.

I’m intrigued.  How was this figure arrived at?  Did I miss the flyover of free contraception and the resulting immoral sexual behavior that no doubt followed?  Now the troll has made me all sad.

Comment #53: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/23  at  10:48 PM

MikeEss:

I think this sums it up:

Objectivism:Libertarianism::Juche:Marxist communism

Comment #54: BrianX  on  08/23  at  10:48 PM

well I remember reading when the groups encountered each other the libertarians were ok with them politically but they had zero interest in the a is a or her “aesthetics” bullshit and Ayn Rand was an all or nothing gal so when they didn’t get in line behind her she went apeshit and alienated them. story of her life.

Comment #55: pharmakos  on  08/23  at  10:50 PM

And let’s not forget the Galambosians, who were apparently such fundamentalists about property rights that the founder would drop a nickel in a jar in honor of Thomas Paine every time he said the word “liberty”. (If you haven’t heard of them, that’s probably because their way of evangelizing involves charging people to take a course for an explanation rather than explaining the basics before you pony up. It’s a self-limiting meme…)

Comment #56: BrianX  on  08/23  at  10:58 PM

Dr. Psycho at 47: Um, not quite. Liberalism existed before socialism but socialism does not derive from liberalism. Socialism arouse from discontent with liberalism from the left in the mid-1800s and it emphasized government control of the means of production as the best way to spread the wealth created by industrialization in the most equitable fashion. There were two main varieties of socialism, democratic socialism which emphasized the spreading of the franchise to implement socialism. The theory being that once there was a universal franchise than socialism would naturally be implemented by the ballot box because most voters would be of the working class. Than you had the revolutionary socialists, who believed that socialism had to implemented by revolution. The most famous school of revolutionary socialism was of course Marxism, which eventually became practically the only school of revolutionary socialism.

  For most of the 19th century, liberals were champions of the free market and held socialists in disdain. Basically, they were like libertarians only they were very anti-clerical, meaning they could not believe in an alliance with theocrats and they possessed a stronger belief in public education. So imagine the libertarian platform but combined with public education. The basic belief was what they called “the night watch men state.” As the 19th century progressed, certain liberal intellectuals became a little less enthusiastic about the free markets ability to spread the wealth but were still rather weary of socialism’s belief in public ownership of the means of production. So they began to look for ways to end the worst abuses of the free market within the ideology of liberalism. Not all liberals agreed with this and many thought that the Modern Liberals weren’t true liberals because they abandoned anti-statism. At first the liberal opponents of the Modern Liberalism called themselves Classical Liberals. By the mid-20th century, the Classical Liberals started to call themselves Libertarians.

  Meanwhile at the same time, the Democratic Socialists began to morph into Social Democrats. They still believed in much more government ownership of the economy than Modern Liberals but abandoned the idea of total government control of the means of production. The differences between Modern Liberals and Social Democrats were basically that Modern Liberals didn’t believe in government ownership at all and favored only enough regulation as necessary but basically still held on to the belief in a relatively free market and a belief in free trade. Social Democrats believed that key industries like transport should be under state ownership and control and favored much heavier regulation of the private parts of economy that modern liberals did. They also tended more towards protectionism.

  Things got a bit mushier during the 20th century, especially after WWII but socialism does not derive from liberalism. During the 19th century, a liberal and a socialist would really disagree with that statement. Libertarianism does derive from liberalism, being a result of the split among liberals over the free market and the proper role of government during the late 19th century.

Comment #57: Lee  on  08/23  at  11:11 PM

Libertarianism is the Marxism of the right wing. A hard, unyielding ideology that puts ideological consistency above human beings and, indeed, human nature itself.

The blind spot of Libertarianism is the failure to see that private corporations, on the age of international capitalism can be just as terribly oppressive as the absolute monarchs and Popes of ages past. Marxism’s blind spot is its failure to see that an all powerful state, even one that professes to act in the interests of workers, can be just as oppressive as monopoly capitalism.

Liberalism is about checking and balancing ALL institutions of concentrated power, whether church, state, the mob, or private corporations. All can be harmful to true human liberty if any one is allowed to run wild and grow too powerful.

Comment #58: Ben D.  on  08/23  at  11:11 PM

Man, CHRIS2 must be so fun at parties! I want to play a Pictionary game based on his comments.

Comment #59: Alison  on  08/23  at  11:23 PM

Ben D at 60, the checking and balancing of ALL institutions of concentrated power is a good way to distinguish between Classical and Modern Liberals. The Classic Liberal just believed in checking the power of state, church, and to a lesser extent, the mob (as in masses of people). Modern liberals added private corporations to the list as an enemy of human liberty if not checked. Socialists thought that private corporations could do no good even if checked.

Comment #60: Lee  on  08/23  at  11:57 PM

True, Lee, Socialists (at least the Marxist variety) fail to grasp that corporations are good at one very important function: providing consumer goods. Governments have a very bad record with this, even western democratic ones in developed nations. Ex., British Leyland, it was an utter disaster that produced crap. Corporations should provide wants (like automobiles), governments should provide needs (healthcare, education).

Comment #61: Ben D.  on  08/24  at  12:08 AM

Only 1.3 mill/year. Not enough. We gotta eat, you know.

Comment #62: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  08/24  at  12:13 AM

“Corporations should provide wants (like automobiles), governments should provide needs (healthcare, education).”

Excellent!...

Comment #63: MikeEss  on  08/24  at  12:16 AM

Remember, liberals legalized abortion thru a big lie in ‘73,

See - I TOLD YOU ALL YOUR BODY BELONG TO ME!!!

Comment #64: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/24  at  12:17 AM

Private corporations can do a lot of good. And if a thief takes my money, it’s possible that he gives it to charity. Doesn’t change the fact he’s a thief, and doesn’t change the fact that profit is the theft of workers’ production.

Comment #65: BlackBloc  on  08/24  at  12:30 AM

1973? The Warren Court?  Chief Justice Warren retired in 1969.  Now let me see, what was the Warren Court best known for that angers Libertarians?

Comment #66: Josh  on  08/24  at  12:32 AM

Like taxation, profit is hardly “theft”, and you can bet a person who calls those those things theft has actually ever been robbed.

Comment #67: Ben D.  on  08/24  at  12:41 AM

Has never actually been robbed, rather.

Comment #68: Ben D.  on  08/24  at  12:44 AM

I think libertarianism is rather well summed up in the Non-Libertarian FAQ: Liberals want government to be your mother, Conservatives want government to be your father, Libertarians want to kill mommy and daddy so they can stay up and eat ice cream all night.

Comment #69: BrianX  on  08/24  at  01:05 AM

I actually was robbed three times in my life, thanks for asking.

If a person makes widgets that have market value of X, and the costs of materials is Y, the plusvalue X-Y is that person’s property. It is the extra value that that person’s labor has added to the materials.

If a corporation hires a person that produces W widgets an hour for S dollars an hour, it makes profit of P = (X-Y)*W - S. Assuming P > 0, this means S < (X-Y)*W, which is the full value of the worker’s production and therefore his or her property. Ergo, theft. Assuming the worker in question has no say in how the profits are reinvested in the enterprise and does not receive any of the dividends of the reinvestments of his or her own plusvalue into the enterprise, which is the case for pretty much all corporations.

Every cent a person makes out of stock dividends is a cent stolen. Every cent of profit a company reinvests without making its own employees benefit at the prorata of the dollars they produced that got spent is a cent stolen. Every cent of profit a company controls without workers having a say in how it is invested is a cent stolen.

There is no rational worker that would be hired by a corporation if it wasn’t for the economic coercion in the capitalist system, in which people are artificially barred from working unless they sell their labor force to a capitalist firm.

Comment #70: BlackBloc  on  08/24  at  01:07 AM

1973? The Warren Court?  Chief Justice Warren retired in 1969.

Yup.  Roe Vs. Wade was written by Harry Blackmun, who was nominated by Nixon (that means he was put up by a Republican, for our clueless troll).  And Reagan nominee Sandra Day O’Connor was a pro-Roe voice for decades.  But it’s all the evil ‘Democraps’ fault, or something.  How come St. Ronald of Reagan never took an axe to Roe V. Wade?  I thought he was the mighty vanquisher of liberalism.

Oh, and ‘immoral sexual behavior’ started in the 60’s?  For frack’s sake, man—read a history book.

Comment #71: Sour Kraut  on  08/24  at  01:08 AM

Libertarianism is the Marxism of the right wing.

And these days, they seem to attract the same crowd. Our own favorite Marxist, BlackBloc, is, like many libertarians, a programmer. When you sit behind a desk stewing about how your supposed intelligence isn’t paying you the returns you believe you are owed, it’s better to think that you’re not just a code monkey but a Galtian ubermensch/Marxist Revolutionary.

Comment #72: Tyro  on  08/24  at  01:13 AM

See - I TOLD YOU ALL YOUR BODY BELONG TO ME!!!

supreme court said it was legal under right to privacy which always seemed kind of funky to me

“We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation.”

Now they said

“We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man’s knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer.”

and none of that adds up to your body your choice to me which is kind of disappointing

Later they said

“At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life.”

which is more my pace


That being said I’m not a lawyer or or law student and don’t really know anything about the law because I have literally zero involvement with the law. I’m just saying that from what I can tell roe v wade isn’t quite what we would like it to be.  I think.

Comment #73: pharmakos  on  08/24  at  01:20 AM

Actually he’s a left-anarchist. IIRC a follower of Bakunin, who had no love lost for Karl Marx.

Still utopian nonsense. Tell me all about how we will have free clinics on every street corner in the distant future once the Glorious Worker’s Revolution somehow comes, but I think its more effective to protect and expand Medicare or make pollution regulations more effective, thanks. Crazy, I know.

Comment #74: Ben D.  on  08/24  at  01:30 AM

If a person makes widgets that have market value of X, and the costs of materials is Y, the plusvalue X-Y is that person’s property. It is the extra value that that person’s labor has added to the materials.

If a corporation hires a person that produces W widgets an hour for S dollars an hour, it makes profit of P = (X-Y)*W - S. Assuming P > 0, this means S < (X-Y)*W, which is the full value of the worker’s production and therefore his or her property. Ergo, theft. Assuming the worker in question has no say in how the profits are reinvested in the enterprise and does not receive any of the dividends of the reinvestments of his or her own plusvalue into the enterprise, which is the case for pretty much all corporations.

Assume a person produces W widgets an hour that have a market value of X by themselves.  Place them in a corporation with the support of others and using capital equipment supplied by the corporation, and they produce W+V widgets an hour.  The additional value from production within a corporation is thus V*(X-Y) per hour, regardless of S and ignoring the likelihood that Y will reduce.  To whom should this additional value accrue?

Comment #75: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/24  at  01:32 AM

I think Tyro has it right. Everyone at my firm knows dealing with IT guys is a last resort. I mean…they act like IT guys. This plays into my theory about how the internet fosters social ineptitude, but that is for another day.

Comment #76: John Joel Glanton  on  08/24  at  02:07 AM

For the hundredth time, liberals need to take back the term “libertarian.”  These people are really authoritarians who pretend to be libertarian.

Comment #77: Albert Cirrus  on  08/24  at  02:31 AM

Wait, how did we get into a discussion of the merits of the labor theory of value (my $0.02: it’s bunk)?

Let’s go back to talking about libertarians - like that guy at work who is pretty nice, but prescribes to a head-scratchingly amoral ideology.

Comment #78: grolby  on  08/24  at  02:43 AM

Albert, a lot of us are pretty sick of hearing about how we need to “take it back.” What good is that supposed to do? How are we supposed to achieve it? When was the term ever “ours” in any meaningful sense?

Doing what’s being done here - explaining why the ideology of libertarianism, by ANY name, is a crackpot, anti-human philosophy - strikes me as a much better use of our time.

Comment #79: grolby  on  08/24  at  02:46 AM

BlackBloc:

If a person makes widgets that have market value of X, and the costs of materials is Y, the plusvalue X-Y is that person’s property. It is the extra value that that person’s labor has added to the materials.

Adam Smith died more than a century before the assembly line was developed. Karl Marx predeceased it by a quarter century. Their economic theories reflected the largely agrarian world in which they lived. But in a world where half the labor is done by robots and the other half is difficult if not impossible to quantify, the labor theory of value is at best a misleading oversimplification.

But who cares? Economics is all bullshit, anyway.

Comment #80: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  08/24  at  05:30 AM

Any real libertarian (and I know I’m skirting close to the No True Scotsman fallacy here) would be anti-corporation.  Why?  Because one of the biggest government subsidies out there is limited liability.  It’s a legal construct that before the 19th century existed nowhere, and is the foundation of modern capitalism.  It’s entirely unnatural and completely dependent on state support.

I do know of one or two libertarians that are anti-corporation on just that basis.  They call themselves left libertarians though.

Comment #81: Katherine  on  08/24  at  05:37 AM

and none of that adds up to your body your choice to me which is kind of disappointing
...
I’m just saying that from what I can tell roe v wade isn’t quite what we would like it to be.

It’s Planned Parenthood v. Casey now.

Basically the state has no interest in embryos, but they do have an interest in protecting babies. (The state can even take your baby away from you if you suck hard enough at parenting.) There is a fuzzy gray area in the middle between don’t-care embryos and “Oooh, babies!”, not a knife-edge. Given how medicine has been saving premature babies, babies no longer have to be fully cooked to be “viable.” But even in that case there is the ethical principle of doing the lesser of two evils, for example, to save the mother’s life or preserve her health, a late-term abortion should be an option.

And late term fetuses that cannot survive outside the uterus are not viable by definition.

Comment #82: Hector B.  on  08/24  at  05:48 AM

alysia #5: There is also a weird relationship that secular libertarians have with evolution.

I suspect they haven’t groked that evolution is not directed. It doesn’t create “pinnacles”, it doesn’t create supermen, it just turns dinosaurs into chicken and keeps cockroaches going strong.

BrianX #11: He said he’d done nothing to deserve firing (I think he just blew off the “arbitrary” bit) and said that an employer should be able to fire anyone for any reason.

Heh. Friend of mine, his boss told him he’d be fired if he ever saw him again wearing a Legolas hair-do. And yes, he meant off-work. That’s all well and good if you have a doctorate in physics (or whatever employers are currently queueing for), or a trust fund,  but if you work because you need the money, and you work this job because you have doubts that you’ll find another quickly, you’re SOL.

BrianX #45: Sure, fifty million more unwanted children with indifferent parents…

STEALING YR STUFFZ! OMFG!

Comment #83: inge  on  08/24  at  07:10 AM

I have to say that Chris’ little motovational speech has really got me pumped up. I can hardly wait to put on my strappy sandals and get about my day running around like an American slut.

I hope he can post that every morning!  It can really get a girl feeling good!

I think I’ll pop a little Tom Petty in on my way to work.  Take it easy baby, make it last, make it last all night…is so running through my head.

Comment #84: JennyLI  on  08/24  at  07:23 AM

Ben D at 63: Well private business is better at providing material goods and entertainment than government. Corporations are not the only legal form of private business. The Marxists failed to deliver consumer goods because most of them were against consumer/pop culture society. The problem is that a lot of people like living in consumer/pop culture society including most workers. This caused a bit of a problem for the Marxist and Anarchists. They wanted to create a new society that most people wanted no part in.

Comment #85: Lee  on  08/24  at  07:55 AM

Katherine at 83: Limited liability existed as a legal concept since the 1600s and it is actually a very good concept. It allowed more people to participate in commercial activities than before. The only thing limited liability means is that if a business loses money, owners and investors are only liable for the amount of money they invested in the business except under extreme circumstances. Otherwise, the other assets of the investor or owner can’t be touched by people whom the business owes money. This allowed people without much in the way of personal assets or even people who were only middle-class rather than rich to invest because only part of their assets were touchable. With more people involved in commercial activity, commercial activity expanded.

Comment #86: Lee  on  08/24  at  08:01 AM

@77: Since the added value exists because of the collective, the value should accrue to the collective as a whole and no single individual. The same argument applied to society as a whole by Kropotkin in the Conquest of Bread (the vast majority of the value of any single product in the capitalist economy only exists because of the benefits provided by society) is the logical step by which one chooses to be an anarcho-communist instead of a mutualist (in which there are still firms, but they are workers-owned).

@82: Automatisation only reinforces the argument. If most of the labor is provided by machines, the product of such labor is not at all related to any single individual and should be collectivized.

Comment #87: BlackBloc  on  08/24  at  09:39 AM

I heard a pro-life argument on the news the other day about how all the abortions mean “less embryos to adopt.” 

Who is adopting embryos?  How do I get one?  Seems like a very easy-to-care-for pet.  It would just sit quietly in the petri dish.  I wouldn’t have to do anything.  I could take it with me to parties and stuff.  I could get 50 million in a couple petri dishes and put them under my belt and take them to work with me on Take Your Child To Work Day.

Comment #88: speedbudget  on  08/24  at  09:42 AM

It really must be the political dog days if we’re recycling libertarian tropes and arguing with abortion trolls in the comments; shit, I remember doing the same thing on AOL in 1996.

Comment #89: norbizness  on  08/24  at  09:52 AM

[W]hile most people can change their opinions when the facts change, libertarians have to hold to “markets are superior” in nearly every case or else their whole ideology is wrong.

That’s just it, isn’t it?  The initial assumption of libertarianism is that free markets will achieve optimal outcomes.  The initial assumption is wrong, so libertarianism is hopeless.  I think any totalizing system is going to fall into this trap because the world is too weird to be fully captured by any theoretical model of it.  Libertarianism is just like communism in this respect.

But I think part of the appeal of libertarianism is that it provides a simple model of a very complex world.  This simplicity is appealing because it is an easy answer to a lot of questions and problems.  This was part of my attraction to it when I was a teenager.

Comment #90: Richard Goblin  on  08/24  at  09:53 AM

Richard #92: The initial assumption of libertarianism is that free markets will achieve optimal outcomes.

The main element missing here is, “optimal for what (or whom)”. It’s like all this “the financial market will regulate itself”, “the ecosystem will regulate itself”, “evolution will take care of it”—yeah, sure, only all those nice self-regulating systems might decide to dump some baggage to get themselves out of a pit. Like a few billion people.

As Amanda says, they are putting systems before people. And not just “some” or “random” or “any” people, but all of them (except, one suspects, themselves, because if they love the system, it has to love them back and protect them and feed them cookies).

Comment #91: inge  on  08/24  at  10:04 AM

You also allowed contraceptives to be sold to single women and no faulr divorce, this started all of the immoral sexual behavoir, then led to legalized abortions, pornography, breakup of families and an abundance of American sluts and whores running around.

I exclusively date sluts who use contraception, and thus fail to see the problem.

Comment #92: Richard Goblin  on  08/24  at  10:04 AM

The exhibit seems to refer to adaptation, purely biological adaptation, in terms of technology as well as physical changes.  Developing underground cities is a massive technological undertaking, and very much apart from biological evolution.  The exhibit is melding biology and technology together.

Comment #93: DBK  on  08/24  at  10:13 AM

The exhibit is just plain stupid. Evolution is what happens when you run out of technology.

But there if you want people to have short bodies and curved spines it’s fairly easy. Just don’t feed them enough and don’t heat the places where they sleep. The survivors will meet your new ideal.

I think that libertarianism can probably best be diagnosed as a result of a deficit in self-esteem. Only someone who really believed they were undeserving would be so pathologically intent on denying everything that we all owe to the people who helped us get to where we are.

Comment #94: paul  on  08/24  at  11:26 AM

Tyro@74: Maybe you ought to come clean on what you do for a living if you’re going to be throwing stones in a glass house and spouting pop psychology bullshit about people.

I’m the only programmer anarchist I know. When I was working in the USA the vast majority were Republicans, a few Libertarians (mostly from Silicon Valley) and we had a guy that people routinely teasingly called “our token Democrat”.

Off the top of my head, the people whose job I know of that were in my anarchist collective worked in various jobs: one worked in child care, another for a school board, two in construction, two were part of a collectively-owned project for an organic/fair trade fast food restaurant (The People’s Potato… yeah yeah, I know), a couple worked in various NGOs… and a lot of students (I was part of a ‘faction’ within the collective that thought we ought to do a bit less recruiting in colleges and a bit more in workplaces and that we ought to fix some organizational problems that made the collective a lot more students-friendly than workers-friendly, as regard to meeting times, distribution of tasks and such). Some, of course, were unemployed. There’s a few anarchists that run an Open Source, anarchist-friendly tech collective in Montreal but I’m not privy to whether they program for a living as well.

I’m a coder for a software firm, not a consultant or an IT specialist. I make a product. That’s a proletarian job, even if it’s white collar. Our job is getting Taylorized and automated and the only reason we’re paid well these days is that it’s still a skilled job, which is seen as a problem by administrators obviously. Just like cinema projectionists at the end of the last century who were paid really well but got progressively ousted out and replaced with unskilled (and non-union) workers thanks to the studio’s switch to digital projectors (and the same with machinists earlier in the 20th century), it’s only a matter of time before programming becomes a non-skilled job and we’re put in the streets… I’m not under any delusion that what I do is special.

Comment #95: BlackBloc  on  08/24  at  11:37 AM

(my $0.02: it’s bunk)?

It’s a theory that originated with Adam Smith and David Ricardo,
and it’s opposed by the Marginal Utility theory, which is bunk-squared, IMHO.

it’s better to think that you’re not just a code monkey but a Galtian ubermensch/Marxist Revolutionary

Just as it’s better to think you’re not an interchangeable drone at the company you work for, but a Real Liberal! who cares!

Comment #96: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/24  at  11:43 AM

All the attacks I’ve ever seen made on the labor theory of value were strawmen, btw.

Comment #97: BlackBloc  on  08/24  at  11:48 AM

”...it’s only a matter of time before programming becomes a non-skilled job and we’re put in the streets… I’m not under any delusion that what I do is special.”

As a fellow programmer, this is (one of) the things I fear most.  (Being 50 in a field that discards “old” people - anyone over 40, maybe even over 30 - is the other one.)

The only hope I have is the death of the programmer has been predicted many times, going back at least to the 70’s (and probably earlier).  But commercial software must still be built, and when commercial software won’t do the job, you need to customize or build from scratch.

Despite business’s strong desire to eliminate developers (who they feel are paid too much and are often difficult personalities to deal with), many of us are still chugging along.  The current biggest threat is outsourcing of development, which is basically turbocharged contract programming.

Computers won’t be programming themselves any time soon, but hiring a developer in Mumbai at a fraction of the cost here is probably a trend that will only increase.

After all of the manufacturing and now intellectual work is off-shored, maybe our corporate overlords can finally be able finish off the middle class in North America once and for all.  Libertarians everywhere will cheer…until they realize that there ain’t enough room at the top for all of them…and somebody has to clean the toilets and mow the lawns…

Comment #98: MikeEss  on  08/24  at  12:06 PM

Wow, CHRIS2 doesn’t WANT to SAVE 48.5 MILLION unborn children, by his own figures,—what is that, per year?—- because OTHER people get to have teh sex.

And believe me, buddy, it would be OTHER people.

Apparently saving 48,500,000 bayyybeeezzz means nothing to him.

Comment #99: Eric_RoM  on  08/24  at  12:20 PM

As a fellow programmer, this is (one of) the things I fear most.

I concur. Isn’t it ridiculous though? The whole purpose of human technological progress is to eliminate our need to spend so much of our time laboring. Capitalism makes Luddites of us all.

In a sane world we would be cheering for the day the machines take our place on the line. But this is not a sane world, and the benefits of automation only accrue to those who own the machines, so if you get bumped off the assembly line, though luck for you. The choice is slavery or starvation.

This is what Kropotkin talked about in the Conquest of Bread. By right the benefits of human progress, being a collective endeavor, should be given to all humanity, not to a few. The machines are as much our collective heritage as the land. But the land was fenced and parcelled between landlords, and the machines are owned by the owning class, and we all work to enrich a few instead of humanity as a whole.

This is the hard truth the libertarians don’t grasp: capitalist competition is a disincentive to human progress, not an incentive as they and the liberal economists claim. Who are the people best placed to know what innovations need be made? The workers at the base, who work directly in the field and thus have direct experience with the difficulties and issues of the job. Who are the people who have the least incentive to innovate? The workers at the base, who if they were to increase productivity would at best not get a single cent more out of the deal, and at worst innovate themselves out of a job.

That is without considering the ravages that intellectual property cause to scientific innovation, by making it impossible for the entirety of the scientific world to work on data that’s gathered by private firms. The world of science is replete with stories of parallel discoveries due to scientists from different countries not being in contact with each other, which is *wasted effort* if you compare to a world in which these scientists would have been aware of what others in the field were working on. Multiply that by a million of small corporate fiefdoms that keep their own scientific secrets more jealously than national universities did in the 18th-20th century…

Comment #100: BlackBloc  on  08/24  at  12:21 PM

Oh, where to start.

This is, of course, pure nonsense.  Growing food is about factors coming together, and heat is just one of them—-it’s also sunshine and fertility.  Increasing desertification of some parts of the planet will not have a corresponding effect of giving northern climates more sunshine, even if they do get warmer in the aggregate. The overwhelming evidence shows that rising temperatures will likely lead to mass starvation.

You have the right direction but the wrong supporting points and conclusion.  Sunshine is not that important to growing; the main roadblock to more food being grown in northern climes is the short growing season.  Warmer temperatures mean a shorter winter, and possibly two crop rotations.  Hence, more food.  The only stumbling block isn’t “fertility” so much as sufficient water.  You could end up with crop failures due to drought, such as this summer’s in the Ukraine, or the Dust Bowl.  Also, you can no more convincingly say that rising temperatures will lead to mass starvation then they can say that it will cause increased food production.  A plausible scenario is that any agricultural losses in equatorial regions are offset by agricultural gains at more nother latitudes.

Global warming is real, it’s caused by human activity that goes straight back to the capitalist energy markets they worship, and it is really bad.

Global warming is caused by capitalism?  Maybe you don’t remember that the former communist states signed on most eagerly to Kyoto and its 1990 baseline, as the collapse of their hugely polluting state-run industries gave them a massive windfall in carbon credits.

Evolution is an ugly, inhumane process.  It requires weeding out those who don’t have the adaptive genes, which is a nice way of saying they’ll die.

This is an outdated view of the mechanism of evolution.  An alternate perspecive - those who don’t have adaptive genes reproduce in lower numbers than those who do.  A simple example - lactose intolerance never killed anyone, but Northern Europeans and Mongolians evolved the ability to digest lactose comfortably over the last 1400 years, and thus extract a greater amount of energy from dairy products.  Which would give them an advantage over others in terms of reproductive capacity.

Comment #101: PeterZeroOne  on  08/24  at  12:37 PM

PZO: It’s true that evolution as understood by scientists nowadays is more about differential rates of reproduction than people dying off, however if you read any of the libertarian/conservative understanding of it, it’s all still pretty much ‘nature, red in tooth and claw’ bullshit from the eugenicists of the 19th century… a conception who, I feel obligated to mention, was trounced in Peter Kropotkin’s “Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution”.

Comment #102: BlackBloc  on  08/24  at  12:41 PM

#81

You must have heard of “civil libertarian” or “left libertarian”, those are good terms.  Why not go a step further and just take back the term “libertarian?”  Libertarianism should be about making more people free and if that means more (better) government and pissing on the corporations and wealthy (who the so-called libertarians on the right love), than so be it.

The term “conservative” on the other hand should not be “taken back” because it has gone past any good meaning it used to have.  In fact, I think it should be wise to start referring to those on the right who try to hide behind “libertarian” as conservatives even if they reject that title.  Starting with Vox Day.

#83

I agree.

Comment #103: Albert Cirrus  on  08/24  at  12:51 PM

Like I said in an earlier thread, humans are both social beings and individuals. Libertarianism does not work because it fails to recognize the social part of human nature just like Communism didn’t work because it could not recognize the need for individualism. Now some humans are completely anti-social and have no need for social contact and others have no need for any sort of individualism but most humans need both.

I concur.  The political leanings of most people are determined by which perspective they take as a first principle, and then compromise on it to make things work.  The people you identify as libertarians take the individualist perspective first, and then compromise on it very little.

I think if you look at the background of many libertarians, or at least those who come from the indidivudalist perspective first, you will find that many of them grew up in circumstances of excessive collectivism.  This forum’s favourite punching bag Ayn Rand, among them.  It’s also not suprising our host is such an eager collectivist, having grown up in Texas.

libertarianism tends to spring up when you start to believe human beings exist to serve systems and institutions, and not vice versa.

You think that Libertarians worship institutions, because you see them “worshipping” the market, but you’re observing the wrong behaviour.  Libertarians always acknowledge markets as a decentralized collection of individuals making decisions to benefit themselves, because that is what they are.  They genuinely believe that individuals are best served when they interact with other individuals, and both make decisions that serve themselves best.  That perspective isn’t always right, but it’s not always wrong either. And it’s certainly not anti-human.  The individual is always at the center of it.

Comment #104: PeterZeroOne  on  08/24  at  12:55 PM

Yes, PeterZeroOne, there is nothing even remotely uncomfortable about a large human population who feels too shitty to have much (any?) sex or who constantly experience miscarriages because their genes are less advantaged.  Yep, nothing miserable or inhumane about advocating that.

Comment #105: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/24  at  12:58 PM

“This is an outdated view of the mechanism of evolution.  An alternate perspecive - those who don’t have adaptive genes reproduce in lower numbers than those who do.”

Huh?  The mechanism is what it is.  Changes in circumstances always affect lifeforms directly.

If you’re dead, you don’t pass on your genes.  If your life is so constrained you can’t pass on your genes (or can’t pass on enough compared to a better adapted rival), what’s the practical difference?

Calling it “weeding out” is accurate.

“Which would give them an advantage over others in terms of reproductive capacity.”

“Reproduction”, especially for humans, isn’t finished at birth (a baby being one of the most immediately useless things imaginable — only slowly becoming more than a drain on time and energy as they mature over many years), covers the whole span of time from birth, through sexual maturity, through the end of the reproductive years.  So an “advantage over others in terms of reproductive capacity” in your example means rivals starved because they didn’t have access to dairy as a food source.  Maybe they even starved to death before being able to pass on their genes.  Or starvation weakened them to the point they got an infection, etc., or their weak offspring were unable to survive to adulthood.

That isn’t an “outdated view” of the mechanism behind Evolution, it is the original and still correct observation that is as valid today as is was 150+ years ago…

Comment #106: MikeEss  on  08/24  at  01:02 PM

You think that Libertarians worship institutions, because you see them “worshipping” the market, but you’re observing the wrong behaviour.  Libertarians always acknowledge markets as a decentralized collection of individuals making decisions to benefit themselves, because that is what they are.

The idea of markets as decentralized is laughable. The existence of the market is predicated on statist intervention, a centralized government fencing off and protecting artificial constructs like property rights with statist coercion.

Even with the assumption that markets are natural (when in fact the original human societies were under a state of primitive communism), markets aren’t decentralized. Markets aren’t one person, one vote, they are one dollar, one vote. There are thus centralized nodes of accumulated capital that are disproportionally involved in affecting the markets.

Comment #107: BlackBloc  on  08/24  at  01:22 PM

It seems to me that most libertarians don’t see the market as a collection of individuals at all. The person I mentioned above commented after Obama made an announcement and the stock market dropped that it was evidence that his policies were bad for business, somehow missing the obvious fact that most of the people in the stock market are likely to be either right-wing or solipsistically apolitical; i informed him that crowd psychology might explain it better than a priori assuming that there was a direct effect.

Comment #108: BrianX  on  08/24  at  01:34 PM

@109

Seconded.  (Although I do support such artificial constructs to an extent.)

You’d think someone as selfish as PeterZeroOne would realize that if I were to make decisions that only benefited myself, I would decide to get as much as I could of everyone else’s stuff by any means necessary (yes, theft and murder would benefit me as an individual).  The only way those things fail to benefit me, or carry greater risks than benefits, is if I am operating in a system (not unlike what we have now) where those decisions are penalized.  Thus, what I am sure he meant to say is:

Libertarians always acknowledge markets as a decentralized collection of individuals making decisions to benefit themselves under the constraints of a “free” and “unconstrained” market, because that is what they are.

Of course, that puts him right back at valuing the market over individuals because he has taken a system that is arbitrary and constraining and redefined it into its opposite.  Thus, taking as the starting point for the “best” the assumption of both “free market” as best and individuals as a secondary consideration.

Comment #109: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/24  at  01:36 PM

@inge

The main element missing here is, “optimal for what (or whom)”.

I know a lot of libertarians and former libertarians.  I was one myself when I was 15 and 16 years old.  Push a libertarian hard enough and you are going to find that they all invariably going to ethically and morally ground libertarianism as a system on the hypothesis that it will create the greatest good for the greatest number.  In short, they are all closet rule-utilitarians who are not open to amending the rules regardless of the facts.

Granted, the vast majority of libertarians I know are atheists and all of the rest of them have no strong religious beliefs. 

It is also my experience that libertarians are overly sensitive to moral hazard arguments and free-rider problems.  On the other hand, they are utterly blind to the very concept of externalities as well as collective action problems.  And all of the once libertarians I know who grasped the concept of externalities and collective action problems ceased being libertarians in the economic sphere.

On the other hand, many libertarians I know have a fairly skewed vision of what the optimal good would look like, and are more than willing to break a few eggs to make that omelette.  But even this jackassery still traces back to creating an optimal society (even if only for the ones that didn’t get put up against the wall.)

Comment #110: Richard Goblin  on  08/24  at  01:44 PM

This forum’s favourite punching bag Ayn Rand, among them.

Yes, Rand suffered so, from the Wiki:

Rand was twelve at the time of the Russian revolution of 1917. Opposed to the Tsar, Rand’s sympathies were with Alexander Kerensky. Rand’s family life was disrupted by the rise of the Bolshevik party under Vladimir Lenin. Her father’s pharmacy was confiscated by the Bolsheviks, and the family fled to the Crimea, which was initially under the control of the White Army during the Russian Civil War. She later recalled that while in high school she determined that she was an atheist and that she valued reason and intellect. After graduating from high school in the Crimea she briefly held a job teaching Red Army soldiers to read. She found she enjoyed that work very much, the illiterate soldiers being eager to learn and respectful of her. At sixteen, Rand returned with her family to Saint Petersburg.[12][13]


Following the Russian Revolution, universities were opened to women, including Jews, allowing Rand to be in the first group of women to enroll at Petrograd State University,[14] where she studied in the department of social pedagogy, majoring in history.[15] At the university she was introduced to the writings of Aristotle and Plato, who would form two of the greatest influences and counter-influences respectively on her thought.[15][16] A third figure whose philosophical works she studied heavily was Friedrich Nietzsche.[17] Her formal study of philosophy amounted to only a few courses, and outside of these three philosophers, her study of key figures was limited to excerpts and summaries.[18] Of the writers she read at this time, Victor Hugo, Edmond Rostand, Friedrich Schiller, and Fyodor Dostoevsky became her perennial favorites.[19] Along with other non-Communist students, Rand was purged from the university shortly before graduating. However, after complaints from a group of visiting foreign scientists, some of the purged students were allowed to complete their work and graduate,[20] which Rand did in October 1924.[15] She subsequently studied for a year at the State Technicum for Screen Arts in Leningrad. For one of her assignments, she wrote an essay about the actress Pola Negri, which became her first published work.[21]

In the fall of 1925, she was granted a visa to visit American relatives. As her train pulled away she called out to her family, “By the time I return, I’ll be famous!” Leaving Russia on January 17, 1926, Rand arrived in the United States on February 19, entering by ship through New York City.[22] She was so impressed with the skyline of Manhattan upon her arrival that she cried what she later called “tears of splendor”.[23] Intent on staying in the United States to become a screenwriter, she lived for a few months with relatives in Chicago, one of whom owned a movie theater and allowed her to watch hundreds of films for free. She then set out for Hollywood, California.[24]

It’s also not suprising our host is such an eager collectivist, having grown up in Texas.

Can you point to the piece of road financed by the taxes you pay as a citizen of whereever, PTZ?

You’re as much a collectivist as much as Amanda, you merely differ on what should and shouldn’t be collectivized.

Comment #111: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/24  at  01:46 PM

I wonder if Real True Libertarians ever watch NFL Football?

You know why it’s worth watching (for those who are interested in it)?

Competition.  The outcome of any given game is not known in advance.

Why is there competition in a football game?  Rules and referees to enforce them.

Libertarian Football, where, for example, a player could come on the field with a gun and shoot other players, might be interesting (in the way watching a fatal car crash is interesting), but probably wouldn’t remain interesting for long.

The rules of football don’t guarantee one team will win, they only construct a “level playing field” that allows the strengths or weakness of a team versus another team to determine who wins and who loses.

That’s what The Market doesn’t do on its own, as is obvious to anyone not poisoned by the Uber Capitalist/Libertarian koolaid.  Markets with no rules tend to invariably create monopolies.  Owning all of a given market segment, if the market segment is valuable, enables the profit potential to be truly maximized.  And everyone except the monopolist suffers as a result.

You want competition to bring optimal prices and availability of goods?  Have rules regarding how the market is conducted and enforce them.  Be as greedy as you want ‘cause if you charge too much or try to limit quantity to control a market, you’ll be destroyed by a smarter competitor.

Want a truly “Free Market” unfettered by Big Guvmint?  What you’ll get is economic Rollerball, and you probably won’t be the last one standing…

Comment #112: MikeEss  on  08/24  at  02:05 PM

It allowed more people to participate in commercial activities than before. The only thing limited liability means is that if a business loses money, owners and investors are only liable for the amount of money they invested in the business except under extreme circumstances.

Yes, thank you Lee - one again I am aware of that.  I didn’t make any statement as to whether or not it was good or bad.  I merely said it was a government subsidy, as currently structured, which is certainly true.  And that thus logically libertarians would oppose it.

Comment #113: Katherine  on  08/24  at  02:09 PM

Oh, where to start.

Sunshine is not that important to growing;

Bullshit

Warmer temperatures mean a shorter winter, and possibly two crop rotations.  Hence, more food.

And less snow.  Less snow means smaller snow-pack and glaciers in the mountains.  Less snow-pack means less run off in the spring/summer.  Less run off means lower rivers and aquafers.

The only stumbling block isn’t “fertility” so much as sufficient water.  You <strike>could</strike> will end up with crop failures due to drought, such as this summer’s in the Ukraine, or the Dust Bowl.

FTFY

Also, you can no more convincingly say that rising temperatures will lead to mass starvation then they can say that it will cause increased food production.

Bullshit
Bullshit

A plausible scenario is that any agricultural losses in equatorial regions are offset by agricultural gains at more nother latitudes.

Bullshit

Global warming is caused by capitalism?  Maybe you don’t remember that the former communist states signed on most eagerly to Kyoto and its 1990 baseline, as the collapse of their hugely polluting state-run industries gave them a massive windfall in carbon credits.

This argument makes no sense.  Is it a strawman?  A red Herring?  A non-sequetor?
The contries who had the greatest control over their industries were most eager to upgrade their factories to sustanable factories by selling back carbon credits?  They were most willing to give up inefficient manufacturing practices by selling the carbon credits back? 

Sounds like good business practices to me.

What are you arguing here?

Evolution is an ugly, inhumane process.  It requires weeding out those who don’t have the adaptive genes, which is a nice way of saying they’ll die.

This is an outdated view of the mechanism of evolution.

WHAT!?!

An alternate perspecive - those who don’t have adaptive genes reproduce in lower numbers than those who do.

No, it means they die before they can reproduce.

A simple example - lactose intolerance never killed anyone, but Northern Europeans and Mongolians evolved the ability to digest lactose comfortably over the last 1400 years,

“The most common cause of lactase deficiency is a decrease in the amount of lactase that occurs after childhood and persists into adulthood, referred to as adult-type hypolactasia. This decrease is genetically programmed, and the prevalence of this type of lactase deficiency among different ethnic groups is highly variable. Thus, among Asian populations it is almost 100%, among American Indians it is 80%, and among blacks it is 70%; however, among American Caucasians the prevalence of lactase deficiency is only 20%.”http://www.medicinenet.com/lactose_intolerance/article.htm

and thus extract a greater amount of energy from dairy products.  Which would give them an advantage over others in terms of reproductive capacity.

Comment #103: PeterZeroOne

Also knows as DYING OFF!  Being able to digest milk has no GENETIC advantage because 5/6th of the HUMAN POPULATION can’t do it.  5 out of 6 people alive on this planet get by fine without a small genetic quirk that allos us to leech off of other mammals like suckling pigs.

Have you ever been right about anything in your life or do you just rely on your Doctorate from Factsoutofmyass.com?

Comment #114: cynickal  on  08/24  at  03:42 PM

BlackBloc,  you don’t seem to know how production works at all.  If the market value is X, and the materials is Y, you better damn well hope that the worker who is making the widgets also knows how to and has time to inspect, package, sell, transport, advertise, do the books, buy and maintain any equipment, warantee, and fix nonconformances for those widgets all by hirself, not to mention manage the doing of all that stuff, or else your X-Y value added question is actually just bullshit.  Otherwise you just have a widget-maker with 500 useless widgets sitting on hir desk at the end of the day with a value of zero to the widget-maker.  Which is, you know, not particularly helpful.  I suppose the material also just magically appeared on the widget-maker’s widget desk?

Comment #115: roro80  on  08/24  at  03:45 PM

You think that Libertarians worship institutions, because you see them “worshipping” the market, but you’re observing the wrong behaviour.

wor·ship   /ˈwɜrʃɪp/  noun, verb, -shiped, -ship·ing or ( especially British ) -shipped, -ship·ping. 
–noun
1. reverent honor and homage paid to god or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.

Libertarians always acknowledge markets as a decentralized collection of individuals making decisions to benefit themselves, because that is what they are.

an·ar·chy   /ˈænərki/  –noun
1. a state of society without government or law.
2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.
3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.

They genuinely believe that individuals are best served when they interact with other individuals, and both make decisions that serve themselves best.  That perspective isn’t always right, but it’s not always wrong either. And it’s certainly not anti-human.  The individual is always at the center of it.

Comment #106: PeterZeroOne

Psychopathy, also known as sociopathy, is a personality disorder characterized by selfishness, ruthlessness and the inability to feel guilt or empathy.
 
The psychopath is a social predator. He is ruthless, manipulative and often charming. Once referred to as “moral imbeciles,” psychopaths exhibit a marked lack of conscience. They are callous, remorseless and spectacularly self-centered, willing to use and abuse others to achieve their ends, and they are inclined to blame others, including their victims, for their problems and bad behaviour.

Read more at Suite101: Personality Traits of a Psychopath: Characteristics of Sociopathic Personality Disorder

Comment #116: cynickal  on  08/24  at  04:02 PM

Repeat after me: not all libertarians are the same.  Not all libertarian philosophies are the same.

Yes, many “libertarians” on the right are often well described by this.  But there really are a lot of libertarians that aren’t just Republicans that are OK with pot, and are instead actually concerned with excess government power directed at violating individual civil rights.  The main failing of these guys is not realizing that many so-called voluntary interactions with corporations are anything but.

Comment #117: wnoise  on  08/24  at  05:14 PM

If the market value is X, and the materials is Y, you better damn well hope that the worker who is making the widgets also knows how to and has time to inspect, package, sell, transport, advertise, do the books, buy and maintain any equipment, warantee, and fix nonconformances for those widgets all by hirself, not to mention manage the doing of all that stuff, or else your X-Y value added question is actually just bullshit.

Usually the point of simplification is to remove extraneous and irrelevant details. For instance, if my point of contention is in the conflict between laborers, who receive a wage, and capitalists, who make profit, and if I say profit is theft, then how is it relevant to mention:

inspection, which is done by wage workers
packaging, which is done by wage workers
sales, which is done by wage workers
transportation, which is done by wage workers
advertising, which is done by wage workers
doing the books, which is done by wage workers
warrantees, fixing non comformance, which is done by wage workers
maintenance, which is done by wage workers

Cuz you know, last time I checked the shareholders were not doing any of these things.

What you’re saying is, basically, the our lone worker from the example that was being exploited is actually *a whole multitude of workers* who all are not getting the full value of their labor (since there’s profit left-over at the end being distributed to all these folks who had absolutly nothing to do with it). Gee whiz. Maybe somebody ought to think of, you know, organizing them in some sort of group. *Unite* them together, in effect. How could we call that sort of thing? I’m sure we could find a catchy name for it. Maybe create a song or two.

We are left with two relevant points: the machines and management.

The machines: if you own a widget-making machine then obviously if I use it I owe you the value of maintainance on it to keep it pristine and working, and there’s an opportunity cost I owe you if I’m stopping you from using it to gain your own living. But if you own a hundred of these machines and you can only use one, then I’m not costing you any opportunity cost by using it (assuming, like I said, that i reimburse you the maintainance). Being stuck with a bunch of these useless machines (since you can only use one at a time yourself) I would of course not be surprised if you charged me some amount to use them… up to the point where I paid you back in full the value of the machine, after which it’s only fair that it should be mine. If I was in a free contract with an equal, I’d be glad for these terms. But I’m not. I live in a world where the machine owners have the magistrates in their pockets and can threaten me and my life and force me to pay rent (in the form of profit) indefinitly on their machines even after I have paid for them many times over.

The workers, as a collective, have worked for long enough for the capitalists now that the machines have been bought with their own plusvalue, taken in the form of profits, many times over. That is the moral justification for expropriation by the collectives.

As for management, there is no argument that favors that management should be provided by the capital owners rather than the workers themselves. We have already done away with monarchy. Democracy works better when it comes to setting fair public policies, and it works better in the workplace as well.

Comment #118: BlackBloc  on  08/24  at  05:14 PM

#119

Repeat after me: not all libertarians are the same.  Not all libertarian philosophies are the same.

We’re not interested in the sociology of libertarians. We’re interested in what their ideology means in the real world.

Of course all libertarians aren’t the same. So what. Not all Nazis are the same either.

Comment #119: atheist  on  08/24  at  05:39 PM

I don’t understand the unquestioning acceptance of the term “Christian Libertarian”. It’s an oxymoron. Christianity and Libertarianism are completely orthogonal and, often, blatantly opposed philosophies. As best as I can determine, people who use that label are really Calvinists, but don’t call themselves that because it takes too much explanation nowadays (“oh, I loved that comic!”).

Comment #120: mythago  on  08/24  at  05:40 PM

But if you own a hundred of these machines and you can only use one, then I’m not costing you any opportunity cost by using it (assuming, like I said, that i reimburse you the maintainance).

Sure you are - you’re costing me the opportunity of making arrangements to put someeone else at that machine, with whatever arrangements we come to to split the output between us.

Being stuck with a bunch of these useless machines (since you can only use one at a time yourself) I would of course not be surprised if you charged me some amount to use them… up to the point where I paid you back in full the value of the machine, after which it’s only fair that it should be mine.

Why?  If you’re paying me back only to the value of the machine, what’s my incentive to have provided it, with all the risks that entails?  If I have no incentive to provide it, I won’t - and we both miss out.

Comment #121: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/24  at  06:08 PM

” last time I checked the shareholders were not doing any of these things.”

Many wage workers are also shareholders (and vice versa)

“there’s profit left-over at the end being distributed to all these folks who had absolutly nothing to do with it).”

shareholders have something to do with the work being done

“We are left with two relevant points: the machines and management.”

There’s not enough context to understand the example given, but this is certainly an oversimplification of what is “left” when you take out the work of the wage workers.

“I would of course not be surprised if you charged me some amount to use them… up to the point where I paid you back in full the value of the machine, after which it’s only fair that it should be mine.”

Why is it only fair that you get everything above and beyond?

“If I was in a free contract with an equal, I’d be glad for these terms.”

That’s because you’re not a very good businessperson

“I live in a world where the machine owners have the magistrates in their pockets and can threaten me and my life and force me to pay rent (in the form of profit) indefinitly on their machines even after I have paid for them many times over.”

Oh, c’mon.

“As for management, there is no argument that favors that management should be provided by the capital owners rather than the workers themselves.”

And, as noted above, this is actually the case, although there is no clear distinction between owners and workers at this level, because many managers also receive equity.

Comment #122: John Joel Glanton  on  08/24  at  06:18 PM

God made the rich rich, so to try to tax them is a sin. To go against the rich is a sin. Here we are back to God appointed rulers and nobles.

Comment #123: Renmiri  on  08/24  at  06:29 PM

BlackBloc:

All the attacks I’ve ever seen made on the labor theory of value were strawmen, btw.

Religious fanatics always believe that all attacks made on their religion are strawmen. It’s part of what makes them religious fanatics.

Comment #124: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  08/24  at  06:35 PM

Why?  If you’re paying me back only to the value of the machine, what’s my incentive to have provided it, with all the risks that entails?

Why should you have an incentive? Why do you deserve one?

If you built it because it’s your job, then the incentive is its trade value (since you can’t eat machinery). If you didn’t build it, if you’re not using it, then you’re hoarding it for the sole purpose of having a monopoly on the means of production to be able to exploit others, ergo you’re a fucking thief. And we’ll take it away from you and give it back to where it belongs.

Many wage workers are also shareholders (and vice versa)

If you work for company A and are a shareholder for company B, it means you’re getting stiffed by company A and stiffing the workers of company B. Yes friend, you can be both an exploiter and an exploited at the same time.

shareholders have something to do with the work being done

Err, no. A shareholder is like an absentee landlord. Their only contribution is that they hold a piece of paper somewhere.

Why is it only fair that you get everything above and beyond?

Because I paid for it?

That’s because you’re not a very good businessperson

Of course. A good businessperson charges extra, because there is an artificial scarcity thanks to the state subsidy and coercion that allowed a few people to have a monopoly on the means of production, which artificially makes this labor market a buyer’s market. In an actually free market an employer could not charge that extra that allows him to make a profit because competition between people who all own machines would drive that profit margin to 0.

And, as noted above, this is actually the case, although there is no clear distinction between owners and workers at this level, because many managers also receive equity.

Point to me an enterprise (which is not a mutual) that is run by all the workers in a democratic fashion, and not a hierarchy from upper management down to middle and lower management, with most workers working for a boss. I’m curious of seeing that.

Comment #125: BlackBloc  on  08/24  at  06:38 PM

BlackBloc:

In an actually free market an employer could not charge that extra that allows him to make a profit because competition between people who all own machines would drive that profit margin to 0.

In an actually free market, employers collude amongst themselves so that they all make a profit.

That’s what happens out here in the real world, anyway.

Comment #126: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  08/24  at  07:38 PM

Of course all libertarians aren’t the same. So what. Not all Nazis are the same either.

Comment #121: atheist

121 comments until Godwin.
Dammit!  We almost made it.  :(

Comment #127: cynickal  on  08/24  at  07:39 PM

In an actually free market, employers collude amongst themselves so that they all make a profit.

But real capitalists don’t do that! Ayn Rand said so!

Comment #128: BrianX  on  08/24  at  08:13 PM

I would of course not be surprised if you charged me some amount to use them… up to the point where I paid you back in full the value of the machine, after which it’s only fair that it should be mine

The other common thread of libertarians and marxists is that they have a very childish understanding of possessions. And values.

Comment #129: Tyro  on  08/24  at  08:29 PM

@122: mythago

Christianity and Libertarianism are completely orthogonal and, often, blatantly opposed philosophies. As best as I can determine, people who use that label are really Calvinists, but don’t call themselves that because it takes too much explanation nowadays (“oh, I loved that comic!”).

Calvinists are Christians.  They are like the Galt’s Gulch of Christians, but they are Christians nonetheless.

Comment #130: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/24  at  10:14 PM

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Comment #131: alysa658  on  08/24  at  11:11 PM

Why should you have an incentive? Why do you deserve one?

Er, because I provided the machine, without me there wouldn’t be one, and there wouldn’t be any extra value from said machine?

Because, I dunno, technological progress relies on people having incentives to provide machines that increase productivity?

I mean, let’s consider your scheme in motion. 

There’s a mine belonging to the Seven Dwarfs.  It has a bad habit of flooding; currently, two dwarfs are actually mining and the other five are running a bucket brigade so it doesn’t get flooded. 

Along comes a man and says “Hey!  I could set up a steam engine to pump out your water so efficient that only one of you little guys need run it, leaving the other six to actually mine.  You’d triple your output!”

And the dwarfs say “Great.  We’ll pay you for the materials to build it!”

And the man says “Hang on - I want a bit for my time and my wisdom, and I also want a share in teh increased production.  Say either a tidy profit or a cut of the increase.”

And the dwarfs say “No - only labour counts.  We’ll pay you for the parts for the machine only.  Now, are you going to build it or not?”

And the man says “Can’t be arsed” and sods off to the pub for a drink.

Comment #132: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/25  at  12:03 AM

Meta-identity politics

Comment #133: scratchy888  on  08/25  at  12:18 AM

@PIATOR

Or the man goes and gets his brother.  They build the machine and a gate, lock the dwarfs out and keep everything for themselves.

I mean, the dwarfs can’t own the mine, right?

Comment #134: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/25  at  12:37 AM

@136: Yep. Build the machine, a gate, conquers the mine with an army, hires one of the dwarfs as security, and then say to the rest “If you want to ever mine again, you give me 90% of what you produce.” Then pay off the king’s knights to beat up the dwarfs when they decide to form a union.

This is the basis of capitalism.

Comment #135: BlackBloc  on  08/25  at  01:24 AM

@134: We’d have paid for the labor of the dwarf for building the machine as well, not just the parts. And then we’d have given him a share if he decided to mine with us, or he can find another thing to do with his time.

Comment #136: BlackBloc  on  08/25  at  01:25 AM

Wow.  Long thread. 

I read the article on the Kochs.  What struck me was how the one brother got involved in charity and such after his near-death experience.  Typical RWer:  couldn’t give two shits about anyone else until Death taps him on the shoulder.  Then it’s all “I’ve got to do something meaningful!”  “Cancer is truly frightening!  I had no idea!” 

This is what I notice about Libertarians:  they never think it will be THEM.  They never think or acknowledge that they are part of the human family or human society.  THEY in their GALTIAN SUPERHERONESS will never have to have UI, or Social Security, or the VA.  No sirree, they’re all going to go Unabomber and live in a shack in Montana before THAT happens.  It’s bullshit and it’s stupid.  (Most Irritating Libertarian I ever Knew:  former member of the US military.  Seriously.  Is there a more collectivist enterprise than the military?  Yet he loved it.  Still marched around at attention, even in the office.)

This is what is fundamentally anti-human about Libertarianism.  There is no empathy or acknowledgement that one might share even a tiny connection with others.  If that isn’t anti-human, I’m not sure what is.  And, given how separated most extremely wealthy people are from the Real World, I guess we should count our lucky stars that every last one of the Forbes 100 isn’t one of them.

Comment #137: Gone2Ground  on  08/25  at  02:23 AM

@BlackBloc

I didn’t say anything about an army.  That would imply that the individual man and his one brother represent a state.  I was under the impression that PIATOR’s mine was stateless.  I assume that the dwarfs would leave at some point, and the man and his brother could move in and place a gate.  Of course, the dwarfs could come back and dismantle the gate and try to mine again….

We’d have paid for the labor of the dwarf for building the machine as well, not just the parts. And then we’d have given him a share if he decided to mine with us, or he can find another thing to do with his time.

Okay, but do you pay him for the time he spent on the idea and refining the idea?  Are those hours paid at the same rate as the hours spent on actually building the machine?  How does he prove how many hours there were?  If he shows the dwarfs how to make the machine, but doesn’t help them build it, is that compensated?  If the dwarfs show their elf buddies how to build a similar machine, do they get compensated?  What about the man who came up with the idea?  These questions are why we have a market. 

Property rights insure that we as a society expend minimal effort making sure a handful of assholes don’t ruin things for everybody.  Without those, at best you are left with vigilante justice.  At worst, the asshole has all your food and you starve.

Comment #138: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/25  at  02:54 AM

Richard #112: Libertarianism as a humanist philosophy might be the idea, but in its usually encountered implementations, this is at best a misguided assumption. Who benefits when fourty adventurers bankrupt a nation, who benefits when a bunch of financial jongleurs living in la-la land are allowed to bring trade and finance around the world to a grinding halt, who benefits when all humanity’s works are lost to changing environment, who benefits when the ill and unlucky are left to die? In which way is it humanist to allow this to happen, and to not even mitigate the effects after one has allowed it to happen, because the system, like an all-knowing and all-merciful god will make everyone better off in the end? In what end?

Avoiding shit happening is work, it’s expensive, it’s complicated and it can go wrong. Mitigating the effects of shit having happend if godawfully expensive, equally complicated, and will go wrong somewhere, no way to get 100% efficiency when you are navigating a heap of shit. It still gets done, because the alternative, again and again, has shown itself to be worse, and there is something of a consensus that large numbers of people dying is a bad thing.

So much of a consensus, actually, that even college libertarians prefer to paint their philosophy as a humanist one. But that doesn’t make it so.

Comment #139: inge  on  08/25  at  07:25 AM

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Comment #140: alphaclothing  on  08/25  at  09:17 AM

@Comment #129: cynickal on 08/24 at 05:39 PM

121 comments until Godwin.
Dammit!  We almost made it.  :(

If the jackboot fits…

Comment #141: atheist  on  08/25  at  11:27 AM

As I noted earlier, libertarianism tends to spring up when you start to believe human beings exist to serve systems and institutions, and not vice versa.

wow…  ok.  take that statement into any political science or economics department in any accredited institution of higher learning in and see what sort of looks you get in response.  has it occored to you that you may want to actually learn something about a belief system before attempting to make ridiculous statements about it?

also, kudos on using thomas jefferson to make a point that is completely antithetical to what he believed and to what he meant when he wrote the declaration of independence.

Comment #142: j r  on  08/25  at  04:42 PM

@j r

take that statement into any political science or economics department in any accredited institution of higher learning in and see what sort of looks you get in response.

Yes, because as we all know political science and economics (which have always been so adept at representing <strike>old white men</strike> everyone everywhere ever) are the most humanistic of fields, unified in their belief that libertarianism is the one true way and so in theory or in practice could never hurt anybody.

kudos on using thomas jefferson to make a point that is completely antithetical to what he believed and to what he meant when he wrote the declaration of independence.

Thomas Jefferson is famous for his stance that institutions should never be criticized and that men exist to serve them.  That is why he was such an ardent Loyalist, supported slavery without question, founded colleges that explicitly supported religious institutions, worked to pass the Alien and Sedition Acts, and that every man should join the military in order to subscribe to and defend s set of shared and universal values.

Comment #143: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/25  at  06:10 PM
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