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Next entry: CNN’s Barbara Starr on Pentagon DADT survey; exchange with anchor edited out by CNN Previous entry: Hey, why aren’t there any broads in this joint?

Long post on Jezebel, body image, and passive aggressive tweeting

Having been the victim of not one, but two of the absolute most passive-aggressive tweets I have read in many moons (though not, apparently, the most of Emily Gould’s day!), I thought I would politely decline Emily’s suggestion to subject myself to more of this in private and at greater length than 140 characters, and instead address the actual issue at hand—-her annoying concern trolling of Jezebel .  Her argument is, well, let’s start with what she’s really saying and then go with the concern troll gloss.  Her main argument is, “Feminists are just jealous that they aren’t hot like Olivia Munn, and they pretend that’s sexism.”  Which is, of course, Rush Limbaugh’s definition of feminism, reworked into a less clever formation.  But she’s polished up that ancient turd with some concern troll shine.  See, she’s just worried that it’s bad for women that Jezebel has a lot of posts talking about the relentless stream of impossible-to-achieve beauty standards.  Of course, the only real problem that she seems to have with said impossible-to-achieve beauty standards is that they make other women act like jealous bitches.

Instead of mimicking the old directly anxiety-making model—for example, by posting weight-loss tips and photos of impossibly thin models like a traditional women’s magazine—Jezebel and the Slate and Salon “lady-blogs” post a critique of a rail-thin model’s physique, explaining how her attractiveness hurts women.

This, of course, is a straight-up mischaracterization of Jezebel’s commenting and blogging policies, as Michelle Dean explains.

Gould’s giving a pretty vague gloss on what it is that those blogs do, in my experience—Jezebel’s anti-”bodysnarking” rule is Internet-famous, and just yesterday they had a post explaining why Crystal Renn oughtn’t to be criticized for losing weight. Also, in general I think it’s important to be skeptical of grand theses based on sampling of Internet comments. Internet commenters (and I’ve been one! Still am!) are assholes; on this I think we can all agree.

Indeed, the original post that’s inspiring Emily is the one (sing it with me now) about “The Daily Show”, something I doubt Irin realized was going to be such a massive shit-starter when she wrote it.  Let’s see how Irin supposedly slagged on Olivia Munn and said that Munn is somehow a bad person and bad for women because she’s got such stellar physical measurements.

According to Nielsen, the Daily Show’s audience does lean male—about 60 percent. That’s who producers seemed to have in mind when they hired Olivia Munn. Though it’s far to early to assess Munn’s performance based on her few seconds onscreen so far, her previous career path has led some to criticize The Daily Show for hiring someone better known for suggestively putting things in her mouth on a video game show (seen here) and being on the covers of Playboy and Maxim than for her comedic chops.

Munn was hired after an exhaustive search for a female correspondent that included many professional comedians. (Kristen Schaal is already an occasional contributor, but not a regular correspondent.) Executive producer Rory Albanese told the Daily Beast that producers were previously unaware of Olivia’s drooling fanboy base: “We’re stuck in a hard news cycle and we’re nerdy. If she was on the cover of The Economist, we would have been like, ‘Yes! Of course!’” It’s hard not to conclude that looks mattered more for women than for men. Silverman jokes of Munn’s hiring, “I just hope it encourages Wyatt Cenac to take his top off more often.”

One female comedian who has auditioned multiple times for the show says, “Looking back, it was ridiculous of me to even prepare! Should I have gone to the gym more? Done Playboy? It’s such a joke.”


I don’t know if this is fair or not, honestly.  I have no idea who Olivia Munn is, none.  Not that I’d expect to, since “The Daily Show” is obviously a job that unknowns take on the way to becoming knowns.  But I watched the video provided, and it was that brand of “humor” that involves laughing about how fun it is to see a hot woman make references to sexual acts the audience imagines they’d like to perform on her.  It was a little embarrassing.  But hey, maybe she’s really talented and trying to get away from that.  But it also makes the “Y’all Are Just Jealous” attack, as Michelle calls it, all the more stupid. I doubt very much that Irin is jealous that Munn had a job where dudes dangled hot dogs in front of her face and laughed as she ate them after protests.  In the real world, this sort of thing makes evil feminist flinch and feel sorry for the target.  As does the story Munn tells about her Playboy shoot.  In general, feminists feel women are in a double bind.  Being hot means having access to jobs and social activities that might be shut off to you otherwise, but often the price you pay is men treat you like a sex object.  You really can’t win that game. 

It’s also kind of strange to focus on this issue, when Gould seems to be complaining about the larger trend on Jezebel of critiquing mostly still images that are presented to women as some kind of beauty ideal to aspire to, even though it’s impossible.  You’d think there’d be way better examples of this—-for instance, Jezebel’s got an ongoing thing with plus size models and photoshop horrors. The hook doesn’t really match the critique.  Nor am I impressed by the fact that I filled out my anti-feminist bingo card while reading Gould’s article.  (Checked off: the “victim mentality”, “silly and overemotional”, “feminist echo chamber”, and “spend your time on more important causes” along with the “feminists are just ugly, bitter women” slot.)  I don’t think that the sole reason that women get angsty when we’re bombarded with images of impossible beauty is that we’re a bunch of jealous, carping bitches.  I think there’s a legitimate reason to suggest that women’s self-esteem is being eroded in dramatic ways, and that the prevalence of fad diets and eating disorders, as well as the just endless waste of human potential worrying about cellulite, is the result.  I didn’t even think this was particularly controversial.  Except for the invariable pro-anorexia trolls that scream about how feminists can’t care about eating disorders while fat women are still permitted to exist, most people actually find the way women are encouraged to beat themselves up frustrating.  Even conservatives have been known to agree that a culture that makes average women feel like trolls who can’t come out in the daylight is a fucked up culture.  It’s right up there with, “Roman Polanski shouldn’t get away with raping a child” in terms of popular feminist arguments.

Gould’s charge that Jezebel is deliberately stoking reader anxieties like a traditional woman’s magazine, and then only pretending that they want to help is one of the most breath-takingly ungenerous things I’ve read in at least a week.  There’s not a whiff of evidence to suggest that Jezebel’s staff is a bunch of schemers that are out to exploit women while pretending that it’s feminism.  But Emily paints a picture of Jezebel writers wringing their hands and saying, “How can we best suck in these idiots who are just bitter that they’re not blessed with enough offers of cock?” 

I’ll offer another theory: Jezebel’s writers address these issues a lot because they perceive audience demand, yes, but also because they really do think it’s a public service to give their relatively young audience examples of engaging with these images critically instead of just looking at them and self-flagellating. 

Now, you can assume good intentions while still criticizing bad results.  (See: critiques of the gender balance in the writing room on “The Daily Show”.)  I was so annoyed with Gould’s viciousness and ill-founded assumptions of bad faith that I simply just made fun of her argument on Twitter (though did not, contrary to her claims, accuse her of removing any clothing), and Lindsay had the level-headedness to suggest that under all the mean-spiritedness, Emily had a point about how it’s not so great to have a ton of formulaic body image posts.  Obviously, Emily’s accusation that Jezebel (and Double X—-which does almost no body image posting at all, by the way—-and Broadsheet) deliberately set out to make women feel bad about themselves is simply wrong.  But maybe they do it by accident?  Maybe dwelling over images of impossibly perfect women, even while critiquing them (the images and the pressure they exert, not the women themselves), is just creating mental habits that are toxic and counterproductive?

Maybe.  I’ve always been wary of this problem, which is why I avoid posting on body image issues most of the time, and usually only in service of talking about something else.  I worry about the potential of talking about the issue to create space where people who should be allies to each other starting to be jealous of each other or sniping.  I worry that I’m too fat or too thin or too old or too young to be an authoritative voice on the subject.  Above all, I think that the problem is kind of intractable.  After all, the main solution feminists have come up with is an individual one—-encouraging women to develop the mental training necessary not to obsess, while accepting some amount of obsessing is almost impossible to avoid, since the internal battle with beauty standards reflects an outside reality that thin and pretty women do better professionally, socially, and romantically in ways that are way beyond what men experience or may even be able to imagine.  I’m not a real fan of individual solutions.  I feel like some people excel at them, some people fail, and most fall in between, and so you end up getting the same results on average as if you’d done nothing at all.  So….I just don’t see the point in dwelling. 

But I often liked that Jezebel met audience demands, and did so with a rule against body snarking against anyone for any reason.  I thought maybe it’s good that women who often feel like they can’t even talk about this stuff felt they had a space to relieve some tension. But is it possible that it’s counterproductive, and instead of releasing built-up anger and resentment, they’re just reinforcing it?  Maybe.  But one thing I know for sure is that the accusation that Jezebel is exploiting its readers and being meanie-bears to the hot girls just cuz they’re jealous bitches is not even close to right.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:19 PM • (86) Comments

The tone of Gould’s piece is what really got me. I don’t know if she and Munn are personal friends or what, but she seemed so angry that Irin would even discuss the issue of women being overlooked unless they fall into the increasingly narrow parameters for sufficient hotness. I’m so tired of people acting so haughty about this issue, like it’s just the craziest thing in the world to suggest that average looking women have fewer opportunities in the entertainment industry than men do. It’s an observable fact!

Comment #1: Jenny Dreadful  on  07/07  at  06:56 PM

Oh, and also, Gould left out that she used to write for Jezebel. Finally they added that she used to write for Gawker, but not until a while after the article was posted.

Comment #2: Jenny Dreadful  on  07/07  at  07:02 PM

I think she’s over-relating because she got grief for writing a rather obnoxious and kind of pointless woe-is-me super long article in the NY Times, and they got her to post in bed with her laptop, an image that is pointless and a cliche.  I made fun of it specifically.  I don’t really know her or much about her, but the whole thing was just so funny I couldn’t resist.  I think she took it personally.  I think she should either choose to be proud of working the system so hard or quit doing it, but the passive aggressive thing isn’t doing anyone any favors.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/07  at  07:06 PM

Thanks so much for these posts.  Both Irin’s piece and the responses to it have been enormously depressing, and the way you sort things out here helps a lot.  As a feminist fan of TDS, I knew Irin’s original piece would depress me with truths I would rather not face. Emily Gould’s XX post and the “Open Letter” depress me for all of the reasons that you explain, but also because they really indicate how just poorly folks actually understand what they read these days.

Comment #4: an academic serf  on  07/07  at  07:22 PM

I remember the Gould profile.  Other than from that, I don’t know her. 

I do read Jezebel and I have been following the Daily Show sexism debate.  It’s really hard to call out a show, and a person (Stewart) as liberal and as important as the Daily Show.  He seriously has done shit over the years that no msm outlet was doing, and it’s important.

But…there’s a lot of sexism among self-described liberal males.  It’s ironic Katha Pollitt just wrote something about liberal male sexists recently.  It started an interesting conversation on facebook.  Some may very well be unconscious of their sexism, but not all of em are.  Either way, and while I doubt Stewart is an out-and-out sexist, it’s important to point out where institionalized sexism is rearing its head.  That goes for diversity of any kind btw.  I myself emailed the Huffpo after they posted their white-out holiday picture.  Not that I think they give a shit, but if everyone wrote to them?  Yep, then they would.

Comment #5: JennyLI  on  07/07  at  08:05 PM

I have to wonder if this is just a game of talking shit about her old employer… Gould was the co-editor of Gawker in 2006-2007.  Jezebel is owned by Gawker Media.

Comment #6: DTGslu2K  on  07/07  at  08:22 PM

About the hotness issue. A lot of male comedic actors aren’t very physically attractive. A lot of the comedy done by these male comedic actors involves people laughing at them for being at least unusual looking if not outright ugly, i.e. they are funny because they are funny looking.  Or at least laughing at their looks plays a large part in the comedy. Its one reason why the really gorgeous male actors were never really cast in comedic roles or at least weren’t cast until the got to be older and seen as less handsome, unless you go for the older gentleman look. It was just assumed that a certain level of handsomeness decreased comic potential. There have been exceptions like Cary Grant.

  Somehow I really don’t think society is at the level where people would find it acceptable for the masses to at least partly laugh at a female actress for being unusual looking if not outright ugly. For a myriad of reasons, it would offend the sensibilities of a lot of people. So not so attractive women will have a hard time in comedy until society as a whole gets more at ease with laughing at them for looking funny.

Comment #7: Lee  on  07/07  at  08:26 PM

One thing that stood out to me: I find it a little disingenuous that they wouldn’t have known Munn’s previous work and fan base before hiring her. ‘We didn’t hire her because she’s been professionally hot before; we just saw her and signed her on without knowing anything about her previous work!’  doesn’t exactly make it sound like they were interested in her career and work.

I like the snippets she’s done so far, and I have no problem with TDS hiring someone who comes from outside the stand-up/comedy acting/humor writing world when they find someone good. But acting like they don’t do background research on top candidates (or that the research they do wouldn’t turn up some clips and some sweaty fanboy praise) is just ridiculous. Nor does it make it sound any more like Munn earned the spot. Again, I’m not saying she didn’t, just that that’s not the way to support the new person. Jeez.

Also, I vote for more Kristen Schaal. She’s fucking hilarious, and I’ve never understood why she doesn’t get more airtime.

Comment #8: impossibletospell  on  07/07  at  08:52 PM

I had a hard time following Gould’s argument that page views follow the number of commenters who reload looking for replies. Surely most readers do not comment, and many readers must avoid reading the inevitable flame wars that break out. I wonder what the commenter-reader ratio is for pandagon.

“Feminists are just jealous that they aren’t hot like Olivia Munn, and they pretend that’s sexism

Olivia Nunn hot? Have you seen all those freckles? (Seriously, I worked with a quite attractive woman who hated her freckles, and thought of them as blemishes.)

Olivia Nunn will either click with the show or not. If she comes across as merely a vapid beauty queen, it ain’t gonna work.

Comment #9: Hector B.  on  07/07  at  09:04 PM

Lee! Oh, Lee. You’re kidding, right? I hope? Because George Carlin’s comedy was all about how he was funny looking, and Ryan Reynolds is certainly hilariously ugly.* Also, Roseanne Barr could never quite make it in comedy on accounta people just thought she was too hot. Tina Fey never uses comedy about her own flaws; she would never base an entire character on the premise of being unattractive or less-naturally-attractive. Steve Martin is another disgusting male specimen who supports your theory! And Sinbad! And Jon Stewart, of course, is the grossest of them all, with his fluffy hair and shiny white smile.

OH WAIT not a single thing you said makes sense. If the only comedy you like is the point-and-laugh-at-the-freak kind, what are you doing watching The Daily Show? Or coming here, for that matter - Amanda is funny, but it’s a dry wit, not a mean one.

*Not a stand-up, but he certainly climbed up as a comedic actor, not a heart-throb.

Comment #10: the duck-billed placelot  on  07/07  at  09:06 PM

@the duck-billed placelot
And don’t forget the hideous, hideous Paul Rudd and Jason Segel!

Comment #11: Dustin L  on  07/07  at  09:20 PM

Somehow I really don’t think society is at the level where people would find it acceptable for the masses to at least partly laugh at a female actress for being unusual looking if not outright ugly. For a myriad of reasons, it would offend the sensibilities of a lot of people. So not so attractive women will have a hard time in comedy until society as a whole gets more at ease with laughing at them for looking funny.

Huh?  You do realize that Phyllis Diller, Lucille Ball and other early comediennes built their careers on not being pretty, right?  That in fact they built their careers on being slightly grotesque physically and constantly mocked their looks because that was what the audience wanted?

You should probably actually do some reading about the history of comedy before you embarrass yourself further with more completely ahistorical postings that prove you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.

Comment #12: Mnemosyne  on  07/07  at  09:39 PM

THAT’S where I know her from!  She was on AotS!  She pretended to like video games.  She actually knew jackshit (I know this from a second hand account of the Halo 2 launch).  Don’t know about her comedian chops, just wanted to chime in with that.

Morgan Webb was always the better show host.

Comment #13: themann1086  on  07/07  at  10:05 PM

Lucille Ball built her career on not looking pretty? I’ll happily defer to M. on comedy history, but I have a hard time believing that she was ever perceived as unattractive, let alone grotesque. She made fun of herself in all kinds of ways, but was she ever really perceived as ugly? Gawky maybe, but ugly?

Comment #14: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  07/07  at  10:08 PM

Yeah, Lee. You are so far off base. The first female comedians could pretty much ONLY be successful by making fun of their looks. Totie Fields, Joan Rivers, Phyllis Diller, Lucille Ball… All their comedy was based on the idea that they were unattractive, not sexy, could not cook, keep house or do anything men expected from women.

You must be too young to know this stuff. But it’s true.

Comment #15: millie  on  07/07  at  10:12 PM

Lucille Ball started out as a showgirl, but she found success by mocking herself as a wife and, really, as a sexual woman.

Comment #16: millie  on  07/07  at  10:16 PM

To be fair, many of the women you mentioned are actually quite beautiful but spend their time mocking perceived flaws. I would kill to be half as pretty as Tina Fey. It sort of gives the impression that one must be beautiful but dare not acknowledge that fact.

There are definitely some awesome exceptions, but I think it is a lot harder for an actually homely woman to make it in comedy than for a man of the same looks level.

Comment #17: alysia  on  07/07  at  10:31 PM

After numerous plastic surgeries, Diller had to work at looking unattractive—and work at it, she did.

Fright wigs, etc.

Give the gal credit, I had a picture taken with her when I was 40ish and she was 70ish—and I had more wrinkles than she, and she sported enviable Barbie-sculpted legs.

But that was the world she grew up in as a woman comedian: and her humor was subversive. If a woman’s job was marriage, then sexual attractiveness and scrubbing toilets would both be part of the job description.

Diller’s humor subverted that idea: what if I’m a crone who hates housework? I’m still here and I ain’t being fired.

Diller was one of the few outlets women of the period had from that period’s relentless scrub-a-bubble glamor housewife ethos.

Donna Reed wore heels, pearls, and a crinoline while dusting: Phyllis blew that image to smithereens.

It’s interesting that about the time that the generation of women comedians who rejected the “ugly me” jokes came into fashion, Phyllis grew more and more glamorous during her performances, and off stage.

She could be pretty if she wanted to, then, and she wanted to.

She also wrote more of her own material than Lucille Ball, and was still a performing standup comedian with crackerjack timing nearly right to the end.

(I brought a group of young standup students to see Diller in concert in the ‘90s, and they were amazed at how good she still was—why not? The woman had been performing for 40 years (although I’ve also seen some old fart guy comedians of her generation who could no longer hold an audience, so again, credit where credit is due.)

Comment #18: judybrowni  on  07/07  at  10:42 PM

Also, what about Amy Sedaris?  Even though she is attractive, she has made it a point in material to make herself look as unusual and ugly as possible.  I think her brother David wrote something about she loves making herself look horrible because their father was so obsessed with the girls of the family not becoming fat.  I think she is fucking hilarious.  It’s even better if you watch the florrie fisher video and then watch the first season of Strangers with Candy.

Comment #19: kitten parade  on  07/07  at  10:49 PM

Women are always allowed to make fun of their looks, no matter how gorgeous they are. Society is very comfortable with unceasing female insecurity.

Comment #20: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  07/07  at  10:51 PM

a “how” belongs in that last paragraph, but I couldn’t stop thinking about the phrase “my bacon strips ‘a sizzling!” and laughing to myself.

Comment #21: kitten parade  on  07/07  at  10:51 PM

What’s interesting about the latest group of women comedians, is, even if they’re not conventionally attractive, neither they nor any comedy segments I’ve seen written for them, make mention of that or fun of it in any way. 

I’m thinking, for instance, of Sarah Vowell, Rachel Dratch, and Kristen Schall (who has done some hysterical Daily Show segments.)

It’s interesting that the conventionally pretty Tina Fey plays the supposedly frumpy Liz Lemon, but perhaps that’s playing to the fear of frump in all of us.

Comment #22: judybrowni  on  07/07  at  10:56 PM

“thin and pretty women do better professionally, socially, and romantically in ways that are way beyond what men experience or may even be able to imagine”

Oh I so know what you mean.  It’s so easy for a bald, big-nosed, bad-skinned, coke bottle-glasses to get dates.  In fact I’m about to go on a date right now!  Then another one!

Comment #23: B405  on  07/07  at  11:18 PM

I’m just so tired of the way that people react to having been informed, even in the nicest way possible, that something or someone that they like, or something that they did, was maybe informed by sexist or racist social mores. The way they react, you’d think that having something that’s potentially racist or sexist brought to light is WAY worse than experiencing systemic sexism or racism.

Comment #24: Jenny Dreadful  on  07/07  at  11:20 PM

yeah, because not being able to get fucked by all the pretty women in the world is totally the same thing as being subjected to systemic discrimination, b405! not getting fucked by a good looking woman is the same as me getting looked over for a promotion or having someone show me his dick on the bus.

Comment #25: Jenny Dreadful  on  07/07  at  11:23 PM

Why even look back to Lucille Ball?  What about Roseanne? Or Kathy Kinney (Mimi from the Drew Carey Show) who makes a reasonable living as the “ugly harridan from hell” character?

Of course, this segues right into fat-phobia.

Comment #26: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/07  at  11:24 PM

It also looks like Gould’s book was received poorly by both Double X and Salon.  Is that a coincidence?  And no, I do not know Gould personally, and this may seem out of line, but everything she has written makes me think that she is a sort of narcissist.  I know that word is thrown around about women writers, but there has to be a line somewhere, and I think she crosses it.

Comment #27: kitten parade  on  07/07  at  11:35 PM

Lucille Ball never portrayed her character as unattractive, unless the plot called for her to downplay her looks, as when Richard Crenna, I think, has a schoolboy crush* on her and she was trying to persuade him she was too old for him.  The closest she came was in one episode of I Love Lucy when “the boys” who had previously been ignoring “the girls” came out and hung on a bombshell’s every word. So Lucy and Ethel went to learn how to glam it up, so that the boys would similarly hang out with them at parties.

*You have to think you’re attractive when the plot revolves around a high school kid half your age having a crush on you.

Comment #28: Hector B.  on  07/07  at  11:36 PM

Lucille Ball was a major babe during her B movie career in the 30s and 40s.  While she was presented a bit more matronly on her sitcom I wouldn’t say she seemed homely or gawky.

Comment #29: DonnaDiva  on  07/07  at  11:38 PM

So I was one of Munn’s fans from Attack Of The Show.  While there was some ribald humor, and some of it did cross the line, Munn was funny because she was One Of Us.  Munn’s a geeky person, and that’s what made her work on AotS good.

My response on her getting hired by TDS was to be happy that she’s moving up in the world, because I think she’s a good comedian.

My 2c, YMMV, etc. etc.

Comment #30: Punditus Maximus  on  07/07  at  11:55 PM

It’s a bit rich to call Gould out for badmouthing an ex-employer when the original article was made up entirely of bitter ex-staffers and comedians who failed the audition venting spleen. Never having been behind the scenes, I’ve don’t know if the characterisation of the show is accurate but I’d venture that the odd quote from people who either haven’t worked there for years or never got the chance isn’t enough to condemn a show, especially after the present staffers made an effort to come out for it in the media afterwards

Comment #31: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  07/08  at  12:06 AM

Comment #25 I’m too busy going on many dates to write a full response.  Because, fortunately, being an ugly man in our society carries no drawbacks—and it’s impossible to imagine otherwise. 

And believe it or not, men have shown me their dicks, and I didn’t care for it.  One time in college I woke up to find my roommate. . . sorry, I’m trying to repress that memory.

Comment #32: B405  on  07/08  at  12:12 AM

I have nothing against Olivia Munn and I hope she does well. I was a bit irritated with her, “I’m not a feminist…” thing, but I forgave Gaga for it, and I can forgive her, too!

Comment #33: Jenny Dreadful  on  07/08  at  12:15 AM

@24 Jenny Dreadful (Is that the proper citation shoutout format?  I swear, I’m terrible at this protocols.  APA format can go fuck itself.)

I don’t think this problem can be acknowledged enough.  People feel anxious when injustice is pointed out, especially if their ignorance is itself a mark against their character, and I’m not sure this is something that can or should be changed, but come fucking on, privileged people of the world.

You are not your sex.  You are not your race.  You are not substantially responsible for the injustices perpetrated on your behalf unless you react like a fucking animal and defend them.

If you’re a guy and hearing about institutionalized sexism makes you uncomfortable, good.  Injustice shouldn’t make you feel comfortable.  If you want to deal with that feeling constructively, read up on it, talk to your friends, listen to people who know what they’re talking about, and work against it.  Acknowledging injustice is a moral responsibility.  Get the fuck over it.

With apologies to Richard Matheson, use your mind, goddammit.

Comment #34: Byronic Commando  on  07/08  at  01:14 AM

@32 B405 When your roommate showed you his dick, did you have a reasonable fear that he was planning to rape you?  Because that’s kind of important.

Comment #35: Byronic Commando  on  07/08  at  01:22 AM

THAT’S where I know her from!  She was on AotS!  She pretended to like video games.  She actually knew jackshit (I know this from a second hand account of the Halo 2 launch).  Don’t know about her comedian chops, just wanted to chime in with that.

Morgan Webb was always the better show host.

Well, Attack of the Show was only partly about video games, so if Munn had to fake it, she didn’t have to do it for very long before the show went onto The Feed or interviewed someone in the latest movie or made fun of someone on the internet.  Webb is usually the co-host of X-Play, which is totally about video games, so Webb has to (and I would imagine actually does) know more about them.  I also think Webb is funnier than Munn based on her game reviews, which are pretty cleverly written.

Comment #36: Linnaeus  on  07/08  at  01:24 AM

Gould is *not* saying that feminists are jealous and mask their jealousy with claims of sexism. No, she’s saying that Jezebel writers cynically fan Jezebel readers’ feelings of insecurity into “feminist” rage to increase page views.

Comment #37: earnest  on  07/08  at  01:27 AM

I never, ever said ugly men have it easy. But it’s childish to think an ugly man faces near the same obstacles as an ugly woman. Which is, if you can calm down a second, all I was saying. That women face intense pressure doesn’t mean men face none.

But by all means, let’s ignore sexism until the problem of ugly men not getting to date exactly who they want when they want is dealt with first.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  01:28 AM

Earnest, I quoted her saying just that—-bitter, jealous, etc. Think that other women oppress them by being so cute. She didn’t say we’re all hags, but that’s not necessary. We can understand implication.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  01:31 AM

Yeah, well, anybody who tells other women that their sole raison d’etre for being pissed at her is ‘take that sandwich out of their mouths and take a walk! Just walk it off, bitch! Walk it off, bitch!” is not getting any favors from me.

....Sigh.Until she gets discriminated against as a woman. As a dipshit is one thing but as a woman? I don’t care who it is.

And I remember Lucille Ball being played as someone neuter, as if her inadequacies as a woman rendered her ugly and ....unsuitable. In her own way, she rebelled—and that made her unattractive.

Comment #40: ginmar  on  07/08  at  01:50 AM

Well, you paraphrase her saying that, which is what I had an issue with.  I do think there’s an implication that the audience of Jezebel are unattractive women who are jealous of “pretty girls.” Her point seems to be that Jezebel exploits that audience’s insecurities to try and ramp up page views for job security and ad revenue which is rich. There isn’t a content creator among us, Slate included, that hasn’t at some time or another chased after page views.

Comment #41: earnest  on  07/08  at  01:58 AM

This critique of Slate, that appeared in Slate, is as true now as ever! http://www.slate.com/id/2143233

Comment #42: earnest  on  07/08  at  02:00 AM

ginmar—in the series after I Love Lucy, Lucy’s character would become annoying when she couldn’t get her way. Wikip reminded me she went on a date with a Dean Martin lookalike in 1966—at a time when Martin was playing the sexy spy Matt Helm.

Comment #43: Hector B.  on  07/08  at  02:12 AM

Hasn’t B405 hit a few squares in anti-feminist bingo in 2 short comments? Still needs either ‘Men’s studies class’ or ‘Women are just naturally better at that sort of thing’ for the win.

Comment #44: shakahi  on  07/08  at  04:32 AM

judybrowni,

Did you write this referring to Phyllis Diller?

She also wrote more of her own material than Lucille Ball, and was still a performing standup comedian with crackerjack timing nearly right to the end.

Are you referring to her not being so active anymore? Or dead? Because I’m pretty sure she’s not dead yet.

Comment #45: Santa Claustrophobia  on  07/08  at  07:14 AM

I have to wonder if this is just a game of talking shit about her old employer… Gould was the co-editor of Gawker in 2006-2007.  Jezebel is owned by Gawker Media.

I have no doubt that this is part of it. She’s really offended that Nick Denton didn’t see the editiorial (or, focusing on Denton’s primary concern, pageview) value in her tales of relationship tribulations and her inter-office affairs and fabulous adventures in the Hamptons.

Not that consistency isn’t useful. It’s a good reminded to see that Emily Gould is the same narcissistic nitwit attention addict she’s been since that time. With Gould, it’s all about promoting conventionally attractive, superficially hip (“looka my tats as I sprawl soulfully on the bed!”) and wonderful her, and who cares who gets run over in the process.

She was on AotS!  She pretended to like video games.  She actually knew jackshit (I know this from a second hand account of the Halo 2 launch).  Don’t know about her comedian chops, just wanted to chime in with that.

I don’t know much about MUnn beyond the fact that she was the host of videogame show who appeared in Playboy. But I wouldn’t be surprised if she knew as much about videogames as the weather lady where I used to work knew about meteorology (i.e. jack), ‘cause that’s the showbiz. That said, she must have some basic comic talent, because The Daily Show couldn’t get away with hiring just on looks. That said…

Executive producer Rory Albanese told the Daily Beast that producers were previously unaware of Olivia’s drooling fanboy base.

Yeah, male NYC-based TV producers, being liberal Hah-vahd men, never pay attention to pop culture, especially when it involved nekkid hotties. Please—this set off my BS detector to red alert levels.

You want a surprisingly accurate depiction of the tone in these writers’ rooms and newsrooms, check out 30 Rock. You can get away with a lot of outrageous stuff in that atmosphere because it’s equal-opportunity/nothing’s-sacred slagging with a healthy portion of self-deprecation, and I’ll admit that it’s fun. But ignoring the fact that, in the end, it comes from a place of upper-class, educated, male white privilege (or from those trying to fit into that particular boy’s club) does no-one any good.

Comment #46: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  07:59 AM

Oh I so know what you mean.  It’s so easy for a bald, big-nosed, bad-skinned, coke bottle-glasses to get dates.  In fact I’m about to go on a date right now!  Then another one!

Surprising that, in seeking dating success, your bitter, self-pitying sarcasm and your breezy blindness to male privilege aren’t enough to counter-balance the looks that apparently offend all women (what with them being superficial b*tches, amirite?).

I’m betting you’re a real NiceGuy®

Comment #47: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  08:39 AM

One smallish point- I’m not sure conventionally pretty women, or at least very conventionally pretty women, do do better romantically. They may get asked for more dates, but I have several friends who are pretty enough to have done some modeling who actually got treated pretty fucking badly by men. I tend to think it’s not really such a great thing to serve as a man’s trophy. When I was younger, I was considered conventionally beautiful- or at least, it was something I heard a decent amount of the time,- and my experience is that I get treated with a lot more respect by men now that my looks have started to fade. You get a kind of attention that pulls you in- of course you want to feel attractive to men- but it’s a really unhealthy way to get defined, too. Your external self is only so valuable to your internal self, you know? It’s a take on the Sartrean hell, where you’re intrusively defined through other’s eyes in ways that amount to jack shit in the end.

My intuitive sense tells me that Emily Gould’s fallen into this a bit herself. As someone whose used to getting male attention, she’s perhaps been pulled into an unhealthy place more than she’d like to admit. So she’s trying to ennoble it, and turn it into something it just isn’t. Which doesn’t necessarily make her a terrible person, but it’s not going to take her to any great places emotionally. Hence the rampant contradictions in her piece and the petty passive aggressiveness of her tweets- damn you, you spiteful, bitter Amanda Marcotte! Anyway, that’s my gut take.

It may be that there’s some sweet spot where you can be conventionally pretty enough but not too pretty. But I’d imagine it’s pretty fucking elusive.

Comment #48: samanthab.  on  07/08  at  09:12 AM

It may be that there’s some sweet spot where you can be conventionally pretty enough but not too pretty. But I’d imagine it’s pretty fucking elusive.

Heh. I was just thinking about this the other day. At the time, I was looking at an advert for a family holiday destination (an amusement park or somesuch) and that’s exactly how I would have described the models they cast to portray the fun-loving nuclear family (interestingly, the husband was slightly more pretty than the wife or kids). It’s the beauty of late-stage capitalism that someone whose sole talent is finding something as elusive and emphemeral as you describe can also find gainful (and no doubt lucrative) employment.

Comment #49: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  09:35 AM

For major jobs such as The Daily Show, each position has at least thirty deserving applicants.  From the person who answers the phones to the on-air cast, getting on a show like that is like getting into the Ivy League.  For graduate school.  In Law.

Hardly anyone “deserves” the job and almost no one has a sure way to “earn” it, either.  It’s going to be a contest between talent, potential, willingness to fit in, ability to fit in, and what that person is known for.  I think the detractors of Olivia Munn can point to a lot of stuff and engage in “slut shaming” of various sorts, but I have to ask if that implies that someone who does that is forever to be banned from “serious” television (on a comedy network?)

She’s young, she’s pretty, she’s got a job.  Young actresses—whether they’re Kristen Stewart, Jodie Foster, or Amanda Cosgrove—don’t have Oscar-potential role after Emmy-potential role after role to pick from in this or any other world.  Some of them just want to work.  Some do more than others to get fame, but they’re all devoted to making a living at it.  If Olivia Munn ate hotdogs in a suggestive manner and posed in Playboy, at least it got her somewhere.  This isn’t about all women, but it is about her.  There’s a long line of people just as desperate to get the best jobs, and their desperation doesn’t mean they don’t have talent as well.

Yeah, she’s young and pretty and probably pretty funny.  Jon Stewart is also the third or fourth host of The Daily Show.

Comment #50: 3letterjon  on  07/08  at  10:27 AM

Well, you paraphrase her saying that, which is what I had an issue with.

I could have reprinted the entire article, but I trust that people know how to work a mouse.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  10:30 AM

I would agree with Gould’s point were she to have removed the word “feminist” from the under-title and replaced “women’s” with “people’s.” I mean, it’s almost a tautological description of a for-profit blog’s business model.

Comment #52: norbizness  on  07/08  at  10:32 AM

What’s really weird is how stuck Munn is on the “y’all are just jealous”.  It literally doesn’t occur to her or Gould that maybe a lot of women could get the Beauty 2.0 Hawt Chick look if they wanted to, but they don’t because they’re not interested in being douchebag magnets/think it’s a boring look/have something else they find appealing/want to attract a different kind of man/aren’t into men.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  10:35 AM

Yeah, she’s young and pretty and probably pretty funny.  Jon Stewart is also the third or fourth host of The Daily Show.

Nope, just the second. Craig Kilborne hosted it for a year, and then Stewart took over.

Comment #54: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/08  at  10:35 AM

samantha @48, yeah, I agree.  And on Emily, I think you’re on to something.  It’s interesting how she went after me and I think Jessica, too, with the same kind of sniping.  It’s probably her fallback position, but it’s not really that effective on me for a couple of reasons.  Insinuating that I lack for male attention is something that stopped working on me eons ago after a wingnut barrage, for one, and for another, I’m not actually insecure in any real sense.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  10:41 AM

It may be that there’s some sweet spot where you can be conventionally pretty enough but not too pretty. But I’d imagine it’s pretty fucking elusive.

Actually, I’d say it’s something young women who are conventionally pretty can look forward to—-it’s called hitting 30, give or take a few years.  You get all the benefits of being pretty, but a little less baby fat in your cheeks, and douchebags start to assume you’re too old to fall for their crap.

Comment #56: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  10:44 AM

Amanda, I was just thinking that in reference to previous generation of comics who played their looks up and down for appropriate comedic effect (Barbara Streisand made a whole acting career on just that tension). I

t’s actually quite easy to get to the approved feminine hawtness standard: it’s so fake these days that provided you’re prepared to throw enough time, money and pain at it, you can more or less guarantee yourself the right figure, chest size, hair thickness, butt firmness, ab tightness, lip plumpness and tooth brightness to pass for conventionally pretty.

That’s why it never makes sense to me to say of a beautiful woman that others are “just jealous”. No, scratch that, it doesn’t just not make any sense, it’s a pernicious and ugly (pun intended) lie. It completely erases the fact that it’s usually the most conventionally attractive women who a) spend the most emotional resources ont heir apperance and b) are most dissatisfied with it to begin with. It also disregards the sheer accumulated amount of time and effort it takes just to be moderately acceptable: the shaving, plucking, dyeing, smoothing, choosing, ironing, matching, washing, drying and brushing that makes a normal weekday morning could probably be added up to enough hours a week to put a serious improvement on one’s golf swing, at least.

Funny, on the other hand, is innate. You either have it or you don’t. Gould’s claim that the criticism of Munn’s comic schtick is somehow a sublimation of envy about her appearance is simply the cowardly reverse of the truth, which is that Munn’s (and maybe Gould’s) defensiveness about her looks is a reflection of her insecurity about her fitness for this job.

Comment #57: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  10:44 AM

I simultaneously feel bad for and annoyed with Munn. I have no clue about her comedy skills, she’s been fine on TDS so far, but the excerpt from her Vanity Fair interview posted over at Jezebel hits home, I think, in terms of this objectification women have to struggle with in professional environments (especially in the entertainment industry). Clearly she HAS struggled with these issues, so I’m annoyed by the full on denial she’s gone into. Instead of acknowledging the complexity of it all - maybe saying, yeah, that shit is out there but TDS has been nothing like that or whatever - she just fell back on the conventional anti-feminist, jealous bitches response. It just reeks of women-who-bash-other-women-to-curry-favor-with-the-boys. So fine, you know your demographic and how to play this so as to not become a feminist harpy and lose your fans, but remember that the next time you break out into tears at a photo shoot because they keep insisting you show more cleavage.

Comment #58: antiope  on  07/08  at  11:09 AM

@Amanda Marcotte, yeah, on that point, at least in my experience and that of most of my friends’, the douchebags are actually right. You do have a level of self-definition at 30 that makes you a lot less vulnerable to stupid shit. That’s not to say that it’s impossible to have that earlier on, just that it becomes a fuckload easier for many women.

Comment #59: samanthab.  on  07/08  at  11:18 AM

One smallish point- I’m not sure conventionally pretty women, or at least very conventionally pretty women, do do better romantically. They may get asked for more dates, but I have several friends who are pretty enough to have done some modeling who actually got treated pretty fucking badly by men.
Comment #48: samanthab.  on 07/08 at 08:12 AM

I have read that studies show women who are blondes and “hot” get less attention than less “hot” brunettes, because men expect they’ll be shot down.  Maybe the only guys willing to approach the hottest of the hot feel they have to do the negging thing.

I think the detractors of Olivia Munn can point to a lot of stuff and engage in “slut shaming” of various sorts,
Comment #50: 3letterjon on 07/08 at 09:27 AM

There’s a big difference between slut shaming and wondering if a woman is getting attention not because of her comedic talents but because of her sexxayness.  Because we’ve noticed that that sometimes happens, if men are the ones paying the attention.

Comment #60: oldfeminist  on  07/08  at  11:38 AM

I love Jezebel, and I spent a LOT of time on it when I first discovered it. I think it’s a fabulous antidote to all the media shit that young women (and men, but it screws up women more) are fed.

That being said, I don’t spend that much time there now, and mostly then, only for the political pieces, because after a while (for me it was over a year, maybe two), I did find some of it got repetitive. And that’s not a bad thing at all. I think there’s a constant stream of new posters for whom exposing how much Photoshop is used in advertising and how cliched the dead/sexually submissive model shoot really is, is new and consciousness-raising.  Some people will see those posts and think “Why do they keep doing the same thing, we all know about it now, stop beating a dead horse”, especially those that are already feminists, or that work in media or fashion and know how manufactured it is.

But I don’t think there will ever be too much of this truth-telling for the general public, because I really don’t think it’s that obvious to most people who aren’t used to analyzing their media. And Jezebel does this not only for ‘ladymags’, but TV shows and advertising in general. And they do it all with humour and genuine interest in what they’re analyzing, which makes it so much easier to handle for fledgling feminists who are afraid of being labeled man-haters/other tired straw feminists.

I only wish I had Jezebel when I was younger, it would have saved me a lot of money spent on Cosmo and fashion/shoes/haircare/makeup/other beauty crap.

Comment #61: lijakaca  on  07/08  at  11:39 AM

A *huge* difference.  “Slut-shaming” is a term that feminists came up with to talk about the way that a patriarchal culture encourages the debasement of women based on sexuality.  “Slut-shaming” is *not* criticizing “comedy” routines that are based on dangling hot dogs in front of a woman’s mouth and making her eat them.  In fact, I would argue that Munn’s work, from what I’ve seen of it, is actually a form of slut-shaming.  She’s a hot chick, let’s all laugh at debasing her!  That’ll get back at those high school cheerleaders who never fucked you!

Comment #62: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  11:41 AM

TheLady @57, I agree to an extent, but some women really can’t get there, even if they wanted to.  There’s no plastic surgery to turn you into an ectomorph.  If you’re not biologically predisposed to be long and lean, but are short and stocky, for instance, there’s not much you can do.  But I agree that it’s amazing how much of this stuff is available for purchase.  I would also say that a lot of it is just weird or off-looking to me, and in fact I increasingly suspect that you’re supposed to be able to tell if someone has had work.  It’s a status symbol.

Comment #63: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  11:44 AM

There’s a big difference between slut shaming and wondering if a woman is getting attention not because of her comedic talents but because of her sexxayness.

Exactly. And I would add, it is possible to wonder that without assuming the woman in question is not funny or talented. I went back to read Munn’s entire interview in Vanity Fair and it seems she is unable/unwilling to separate the discussion about how she/others use her sexuality from the question of whether or not she’s talented. She seems pretty funny and talented in that interview, but too defensive and, honestly, just young and kind of naive when it comes to how her sexuality constrains her.

Your comment and Amanda’s above about turning 30 makes me wonder about the fact that Tina Fey and Amy Poehler and even Kristen Wiig didn’t really take off until they hit their 30s. (I may be wrong about that, but they seem like more recent sensations in my mind.) Munn’s hotness will wear off and she’ll be replaced by a younger model, at which point she’ll have more freedom to truly be creative and funny without the constant demand to show more cleavage. Not that the pressure to be attractive ever goes away, just that it’s different after 30ish.

Comment #64: antiope  on  07/08  at  11:52 AM

I’d never heard of Munn before this.  The issue isn’t that feminists think her good looks should preclude her from getting the job.  Speaking for all feminists, as I’m sure I can, the issue is that her looks shouldn’t be the most important job qualification.  I don’t know for a certainty that they were.  However, if the show’s use of her talents so far have been the sort of comedy described here—look at the sexy girl, doing sexy things out of context, you’d like to have her, but you have to settle for looking—it plays right back into the old, bad ways of thinking about women.  That being, women are here to be and be viewed as sex objects.

I don’t think the same is true of the show’s use of Samantha Bee in her correspondent role.  That says something good.  But one of the issues Jezebel’s article raised was ... Samantha is a lone Bee.  There’s not too many women.  How come? 

The Daily Show, I believe you want to mean well.  Just turn off the bubble machine and see if you recognize any truth in any of the criticism.  Don’t we all need to turn the spotlight on ourselves from time to time to see how much crap we are full of?

Comment #65: blondie  on  07/08  at  12:16 PM

dear @AmandaMarcotte I’d be happy to discuss your sexist slams (ie that I “took my shirt off” for attention) via email but plz no tweetwar

My eyes won’t stop rolling.

Comment #66: atheist  on  07/08  at  12:38 PM

Amanda @63, you’re right, my comment doesn’t address the full range of body shapes, and of course there are things you can never change, like disability, race, skin colour etc. I guess my comment is more applicable to women who already have the sort of physical appearance that gives them the confidence to think of getting in front of the camera, in which case covering the distance from “pretty/OK” to “hawt” is more or less just a matter of investment.

I also think that one of the results of the women’s magazines culture is to make a path from “current appearance” to “acceptably feminine attractiveness level” that is very well charted. You may have things about you that you would love to change and can’t, but it is almost always possible to plot (well, purchase) a route towards a more normative sexiness.

Conversely, and we sort of mentioned it in the previous thread on female presence in male dominated fields, fewer women are given access to the path to being comedians, and the longer they keep not being on that track, the harder it is to converge on it. It’s just that much harder and more intimidating to try and become a nuclear scientists than it is to get breast implants. Maybe I’m just a bit like you and am too old and generally confident to really worry about my looks (or it’s my white, able bodied, normative-looking privilege talking), but if I try to put myself in Munn’s shoes, I’d be a bajillion times more sensitive about my professional credentials than I would be about my looks…

Comment #67: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  12:39 PM

I just remembered the monologue John Stewart did after Apple broke down the door of that guy who picked up the iPhone 4 in a coffee shop. Remember? “You’re supposed to be the good guys!”

I guess that’s how we feel about the Daily Show. Any aspiring thespians out there want to rip off that skit and spin it about this incident?

Comment #68: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  12:43 PM

Well, Olivia Munn could be a good hire? I don’t know. The level of humor on AotS is kind of morning zoo-ish, so if she’s talented enough a comedian for the Daily Show, she hasn’t had much of a chance to show it on G4. And she is indeed a spectacularly beautiful woman, no question. That gets into a fairly complicated issue: it’s rare to find anyone, male or female, who doesn’t fit some mold of conventional attractiveness. (On the national scale, Al Roker and John Hockenberry are pretty much as far off the mean as it gets.) Yes, it’s much harder on women; I once worked with a girl who aspired to be a TV journalist. She was, no question, an attractive woman, but she was also short and big-boned with prominent buck teeth. A guy would be able to get away with that (except for the teeth), but a woman couldn’t, and she was someone who no one who wasn’t a shallow asshole would find unattractive.

I could at this point hold up the example of people like Laci Green or NixiePixel, but though both are incredibly beautiful women, they’re also independent content producers who are both first-rate vloggers with a passionate interest and deep understanding of their subjects. Olivia Munn seems like a leap of faith at best for Comedy Central; she may be worthy, but she doesn’t have the track record to prove it yet.

Comment #69: BrianX  on  07/08  at  12:44 PM

I love how a conversation that WAS about sexism in the media is now about Emily Gould’s precious Fee fees and Olivia Munn’s tits.  Can I have Derailing for 1000 Alex?

Comment #70: shinobi42  on  07/08  at  01:05 PM

shinobi42 - you don’t think Munn’s experience at the photo shoot, where she reportedly broke down after pressure to be more sexy, is about sexism in the media?

Here’s Munn’s own telling of what happened:
I was at the photo shoot for the cover, and I’ve never done this before, but I just shut it down. I was crying. I knew what the publishers wanted. I’m not stupid. But I wanted to compromise. I told them I’d bring the Wonder Woman outfit to the shoot, but I do not want to be on the cover dressed like Wonder Woman. So I’m at a studio in LA, and the photographer keeps calling the publishers in New York, and she’s telling me what they want. “O.K., less tie. Open the shirt a little more. They want more cleavage.” Finally I was like “No!” I know they’ve done book stuff for a long time, and they know what they’re doing. But I was like, “What do you guys think is going to happen? Are you literally going to gang-bang me, throw me down, dress me in the Wonder Woman outfit and be like, ‘Now smile, Olivia. Smile!’” It was just too much. I wish I had pushed harder against it.

How can you reduce a discussion about this incident - which strikes me as incredibly relevant to not just sexism in the media but also the extent to which Munn’s sexuality is used to sell her - to a discussion about “Munn’s tits”?

Comment #71: antiope  on  07/08  at  02:07 PM

How can you reduce a discussion about this incident - which strikes me as incredibly relevant to not just sexism in the media but also the extent to which Munn’s sexuality is used to sell her - to a discussion about “Munn’s tits”?

We are trained to think that extremely attractive people have no difficulties in life. “Cry me a river” is the automatic response, as B405 points out.

Comment #72: Hector B.  on  07/08  at  02:42 PM

I’m de-lurking to share a couple of thoughts on this whole kerfuffle.  First, Olivia Munn lost any residual goodwill from me in her Salon interview with Sarah Hepola(http://www.salon.com/life/olivia_munn/index.html?story=/books/int/2010/07/07/olivia_munn_interview), where she claimed that “no one knew what the fuck Jezebel was before that story came out.”  Way to totally dismiss an entire community of engaged, activist women (and men!). 

Further, I don’t want to ascribe motives to Gould here, but didn’t she put out a memoir not too long ago that was roundly panned?  Could it be that she’s just stuck in “jealous bitches, hating on success” mode?

Comment #73: Jacquie  on  07/08  at  02:48 PM

Phyllis Diller is by no means dead, but she very publicly retired from performing standup eight years ago :“Phyllis Diller retired from the stage at the age of 84, in May 2002.”

Diller continued to perform voice-over, tv and film, her ImDB lists her last film work in 2009, when she would have been 91!

Comment #74: judybrowni  on  07/08  at  03:06 PM

Diller also continues to paint and draw: I received a hand-drawn Christmas card from her (okay, her usual Xerox copy of a hand-drawn Christmas card) last December!

Comment #75: judybrowni  on  07/08  at  03:09 PM

I had doubts when I heard they were trying out Munn. Her comedic timing on AoTS seemed a beat or two off to me. And the mildly ditzy shtick may play well there but wouldn’t seem to fit the Daily Show. Not that TDS doesn’t do ditzy, but aggressive faux-ditzy, a ala John Hodgeman, would seem to be more the order of the day. Who knows - maybe she’ll be more impressive in a different environment with better writers.

Comment #76: Theron  on  07/08  at  04:01 PM

Yeah, that Salon interview is pretty obnoxious. She just doesn’t seem to get it. I guess it’s easier to live with the idea that people hate you because you’re beautiful rather than examine why it is that in at least two photo shoots you have been pushed to tears because you were being so objectified. We’re on your side, Olivia! You CAN be funny and smart and beautiful all at once, but there is something very fucked up about the stories you keep telling! How are you not seeing that?

Comment #77: antiope  on  07/08  at  04:45 PM

I just remembered the monologue John Stewart did after Apple broke down the door of that guy who picked up the iPhone 4 in a coffee shop. Remember? “You’re supposed to be the good guys!”

I guess that’s how we feel about the Daily Show. Any aspiring thespians out there want to rip off that skit and spin it about this incident?

I know TDS is one of the few more liberal, progressive shows on TV. But it’s still on TV.

I can’t find a way to blame them for picking the ‘pretty face’ from a group of seemingly qualified people. Even if they didn’t pick Munn, they’d have still picked somebody who was at least conventionally attractive.

Comment #78: Santa Claustrophobia  on  07/08  at  04:58 PM

Here’s Munn’s own telling of what happened:

Holy Spaghetti Monster. I’m a man and was never a rape victim, so I don’t know if what I felt reading this is on the level of ‘triggering’ that I often hear about on feminist blogs, but that was deeply unsettling to me. On an emotional level.

Comment #79: BlackBloc  on  07/08  at  05:47 PM

I can’t find a way to blame them for picking the ‘pretty face’ from a group of seemingly qualified people. Even if they didn’t pick Munn, they’d have still picked somebody who was at least conventionally attractive.
Comment #78: Santa Claustrophobia on 07/08 at 03:58 PM

They were almost certainly picking her from a group of qualified *and* pretty people.  Don’t underestimate how many people want these positions and how many of them have both talent and looks.

Comment #80: oldfeminist  on  07/08  at  06:04 PM

@78: Well, yeah, and Apple are still a massive international corporation. That’s the point - what Stewart was lampooning that night was his own, and most of his audience’s, desire to imbue Apple with some sort of ethical credentials because they like the product and it plays into their particular aesthetic. Pulling the curtain away to reveal the real Wizard of Oz still made the joke on Stewart and other Apple fans, not on Apple.

In the same way, hiring someone who starts this kind of pissing contest with a (liberal) media outlet stright away, and then covering it up with a tokenistic letter from people whose paychecks depend on you (loyalty is such a wonderful thing) pulls away the curtain from TDS’s liberal schtick. The joke is on us for expecting better form a TV show, but it would still be a damn funny joke.

Comment #81: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  08:07 PM

Regular Jezebel commenters would have you know the site has been wildly inconsistent with their “no body snarking” rule as of late, with the new editor-in-chief who seems to care less about the original purpose of the site (for example, banning people for suggesting that certain language the eds’ use is ableist).

I agree with you about this article, though, and I think it’s kind of disappointing that they picked on the wrong things as a way of upholding anti-feminist trash.  Because the truth is, Jezebel is going the way of a lot of traditional women’s sites, and there needs to be an article pointing out how they’ve lost their way.

Comment #82: Erda  on  07/09  at  05:25 AM

I saw Olivia Munn’s first TDS segment but I didn’t know about the controversy at the time. I thought it was cool enough but I’m always uneasy with the introduction of a new correspondent (“OMG are they going to be funny ? What if they’re not funny ? Was that funny enough ?) so that colors my experience.

Anyway, I just watched her segment on Arizona’s papers please law. Two conclusions :
1) she’s very beautiful. I totally buy that it played a role.
2) she was hilarious ! Her looking over her shoulder at the camera as the pro-camera guy was speaking totally cracked me up. Whatever role her looks played, she’s good at her job.

Comment #83: Caravelle  on  07/10  at  02:02 AM

And that Salon interview doesn’t make me think less of her. She obviously took the whole incident personally, which she shouldn’t have because it’s not about her, but I can’t blame her for it. If in ten years she still says the same thing about Jezebel and the whole debate then I’ll think less of her, but perceiving personal attacks in the heat of the moment in comments that involve you peripherally… especially when those comments involve how pretty you are and whether you’re good at your job or not… I think that’s totally understandable.

And that’s considering I don’t remember the specifics of the Jezebel piece or its comments. For all I know some people do say that she’s all sexy and no funny. Which, true or not, she’d be perfectly justified in seeing as a personal attack.

Comment #84: Caravelle  on  07/10  at  02:16 AM

I know TDS is one of the few more liberal, progressive shows on TV. But it’s still on TV.

I can’t find a way to blame them for picking the ‘pretty face’ from a group of seemingly qualified people. Even if they didn’t pick Munn, they’d have still picked somebody who was at least conventionally attractive.

Comment #78: Santa Claustrophobia on 07/08 at 03:58 PM

Samantha Bee’s attractive, but not in a Maxim cover girl sort of way. The same could be said for Beth Littleford, Stacey Grenrock-Woods, Nancy Walls, Rachel Harris, and every female correspondent TDS ever had. But I’m guessing during this seven year no-girls hiring freeze TDS has passed up several suitably telegenic female applicants with better comedy chops than Munn.

Comment #85: snobographer  on  07/10  at  09:13 PM

BTW You guys got through that whole conversation about female comedians who’ve uglied themselves up for LOLs without one mention of Carol Burnett?

Comment #86: snobographer  on  07/10  at  09:19 PM
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