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Looking at the whys is not optional

CrimeEconomy

Camila Batmanghelidjh has a powerful piece in The Independent about the social underpinnings of the riots in London and elsewhere in England, and how the collapse of the social contract made this violence inevitable. Quoted at length for brilliance:

Working at street level in London, over a number of years, many of us have been concerned about large groups of young adults creating their own parallel antisocial communities with different rules. The individual is responsible for their own survival because the established community is perceived to provide nothing. Acquisition of goods through violence is justified in neighbourhoods where the notion of dog eat dog pervades and the top dog survives the best. The drug economy facilitates a parallel subculture with the drug dealer producing more fiscally efficient solutions than the social care agencies who are too under-resourced to compete.

The insidious flourishing of anti-establishment attitudes is paradoxically helped by the establishment. It grows when a child is dragged by their mother to social services screaming for help and security guards remove both; or in the shiny academies which, quietly, rid themselves of the most disturbed kids. Walk into the mental hospitals and there is nothing for the patients to do except peel the wallpaper. Go to the youth centre and you will find the staff have locked themselves up in the office because disturbed young men are dominating the space with their violent dogs. Walk on the estate stairwells with your baby in a buggy manoeuvring past the condoms, the needles, into the lift where the best outcome is that you will survive the urine stench and the worst is that you will be raped. The border police arrive at the neighbour's door to grab an "over-stayer" and his kids are screaming. British children with no legal papers have mothers surviving through prostitution and still there's not enough food on the table.

It's not one occasional attack on dignity, it's a repeated humiliation, being continuously dispossessed in a society rich with possession. Young, intelligent citizens of the ghetto seek an explanation for why they are at the receiving end of bleak Britain, condemned to a darkness where their humanity is not even valued enough to be helped. Savagery is a possibility within us all. Some of us have been lucky enough not to have to call upon it for survival; others, exhausted from failure, can justify resorting to it.

Emphasis mine.  Whenever something like this happens, there's a widespread tendency to shy away from trying to understand why, for fear that doing so will somehow come across as excusing those who commit violence, especially against their own communities.  But refusing to understand the situation leaves us in an even uglier space.  After all, the violence in concentrated in some communities and not others; the link between who riots and poverty is undeniable.  (Not that some people don't try, as one woman on Twitter complained to me that she's totally seen expensive sneakers on the feet of a rioter, which apparently renders the entire problem of poverty in Britain moot.  This, despite the fact that a pair of sneakers is not a job, it is not an education, and what it costs probably couldn't even pay for a week's worth of meals.)  If we pull faces and say that the only moral position is to write off the rioters as thugs and monsters, we're left with the question of why some communities break out into fire and some do not, why some people's children are rioting in the streets and some are not.  If we eliminate, out of the principle of not wanting to make excuses, these are the options left for why rioting tends to be so strongly associated with poverty: The poor are inherently, perhaps genetically inferior people with violence born into them. I personally reject this thesis, as it's never been proven with scientific evidence, and not for lack of trying from those who stand to gain from the discovery that inherent inferiority creates poverty, and not social injustice.  

It's also a more hopeless theory.  If we refuse to look at the whys of these situations, we basically are refusing to look at solutions.  Wriitng off the rioters as thugs and monsters and not asking why some people turn thuggish and some don't means never even making the first step towards preventing future riots.  By looking at social causes, we can at least start down a path that prevents future riots.  

I'm not excusing the rioters.  At the end of the day, each individual has moral responsibility not to stab, throw things, or set fire to the possessions of innocent people.  But the rioters aren't the only people who have flouted their moral obligations here.  The decision-makers of society have the choice not to treat people living in poverty like shit.  Choosing against that is also immoral.  While responding to abuse with abuse isn't morally correct, it's also inevitable if the abuse is large-scale, as it sounds from this essay like it is.  If we're going to cast moral judgments, we need to make sure that everyone who has erred is held accountable, and not just the ones who erred the most recently while being the most vulnerable to the criminal justice system.  

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:01 AM • (75) Comments

Hopelessness leads to violence, especially when the government prescribes more hopelessness to cure your ailment. Poverty is a mild form of slavery. Even if employed, fed, clothed, and housed, most people need hope to truly live. Otherwise, prisons would be the happiest places in America.

I hate that the riots are an abstract, that we’ll hear jokes about how a soccer match might break out in Notting Hill, and how there’s no sense to senseless violence. But there’s a reason these people are angry, and it’s that their government and businesses and even their culture has told them they’re expendable. Now imagine the Tea Party people can’t get their Social Security checks and think about the consequences. They’re slaves in search of a more-flattering master, not freedom-loving individuals.

I never had trouble struggling through my younger days. I had children and a family and was getting into debt paying for an education that’s now brought me a job and a pension and more. I had hope. Now that I see so many losing hope, I’m well aware just how lucky I was. Not that I had hope, but that I had opportunity. The social contract exists for the greater good. It’s not just another pot of money for the rich to eat up in the form of privatized Medicare vouchers, privatized Social Security, or other forms of “You can’t trust the government but you can always rely on your friends in Big Business” bullshit.

Comment #1: 3letterjon  on  08/09  at  08:56 AM

At the end of the day, each individual has moral responsibility not to stab, throw things, or set fire to the possessions of innocent people.

If you don’t regard the social contract as binding on you because it gives you nothing, social authority as legitimate because it doesn’t help you, or having any obligation to the nation because it eschews any towards you, why would you respect the so-called property rights of others?  If it’s not your community, why is it wrong to steal from it?

Society works not because of force - force is too limited.  It works because of belonging, mutual obligation, and an internalised consensus on what is acceptable. If the first two of those doesn’t apply to someone, then on what basis do you judge them wrong because they don’t hold to the last?

Comment #2: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/09  at  08:59 AM

Forgive me for recycling a comment I just posted on crooked Timber. Conservatives (and the plutocrats whom conservative politicians serve) pride themselves on their hard-headedness, so I’m constantly amazed at their inability to understand that social peace and the security of property are goods, which like any other goods must be paid for. You can pay for ever more brutal policing (with questionable returns in the long run, and then you pay yet again whenever containment fails, in the currency of lives and property destroyed) or you can pay for a welfare state that gives everybody a stake in the system. But you WILL pay, one way or the other.

Comment #3: Steve LaBonne  on  08/09  at  09:01 AM

I agree, Piator, that is an easy conclusion to make.  But of course, the problem is the rioters are attacking their own communities and innocent people, making the abstract moral justifications fade away. 

No matter.  If the only thing holding a system together is the expectation that 100% of the people who are routinely mistreated and abused will always take the high road, that system is doomed to failure.  You have to build systems for people as they are, and any random group of people will have high road takers, low road takers, and a huge mass in-between that can go any way, depending on the circumstances.  You want that huge mass to have incentives to act right, and you want the low road people to bea small enough group that they’re easy to single out. 

Incidentally, this is true of the very wealthy, as well.  The complete lawlessness of our financial markets created a situation where the high road takers were very few in number, indeed.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/09  at  09:12 AM

I really like how #3/Steve LaBonne has framed this, and I’ll extend the metaphor. The government is the only entity qualified to sell those services that create social stability. That means they have a monopoly. They can charge whatever they want—through taxes. The people who benefit the most from that stability, paid for through taxes, have the greatest ability to bear a higher price. It should be worth it to them, because they’ll only be paying a marginally higher percent, but they’ll be getting a greater and greater chance to earn a greater return because of the relative prosperity & stability created.

Comment #5: nonsequiteuse  on  08/09  at  09:14 AM

“But the rioters aren’t the only people who have flouted their moral obligations here.  The decision-makers of society have the choice not to treat people living in poverty like shit.  Choosing against that is also immoral.”

If the rich and influential in the UK, the “decision makers”, are anything like they are in America (and I suspect they are very similar), then they feel few, if any, moral obligations toward their fellow man.  I don’t know how influential Ms. Ayn Rand was in the UK, but she didn’t invent the idea that selfishness is the only real virtue.  This attitude goes way back, if Dickens’ writings are to be believed.

How to change this?  The French overthrew their oligarchy by storming the Bastille and discovering the seductive charms of Madam Guillotine, and continued the killing until the French revolutionaries turned on each other — leading to the rise of Napoleon in reaction.  The Russians overthrew theirs by embracing the violent possibilities of Marxism and the “justice” of the bullet (As the Rolling Stones said, “Anastasia screamed in vain”), but merely switched one set of cruel overlords for another.  The Chinese followed the Russian example — as Mao Zedong helpfully pointed out, “Power comes from the end of a gun”, and they paid a heavy price to prove it.

“If we’re going to cast moral judgments, we need to make sure that everyone who has erred is held accountable, and not just the ones who erred the most recently while being the most vulnerable to the criminal justice system.”

Absolutely true, but how do you get the oligarchy here, or there, so see that it’s in their own long-term interests to keep the proles satiated enough to willingly stay under their master’s thumbs?  It seems like the only way these situations get addressed is to cause enough of a spectacle (through violent terrorism, the only weapon available to the powerless) to make the people at the top pay attention.  And then the typical response to such a threat makes the situation worse, often much worse, at least in the short term.

“You cannot make a man understand something when his income position at the top of society depends on him not understanding it.”
...

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  08/09  at  09:14 AM

it’s a repeated humiliation, being continuously dispossessed in a society rich with possession

We have a society in which people are bombarded with messages that they must have X,Y,Z to order to a human being. The government delivers no credible contrary message.  We have a society in which young people have no jobs, no education, no training. Is it any wonder that, deprived of the opportunity to acquire a pair of trainers or a sense of belonging socially through ‘legitimate’ means, they turn to other avenues?

(And let’s not forget – the Lord Mayor of London and the Prime Minister both belonged in their youth to a club the purpose of which was to dress up in flash clothes, go to peaceful places, and smash them up. Rioting can be fun. Cameron and Johnson are both intimately familiar with this fact.)

Comment #7: Nineveh  on  08/09  at  09:34 AM

That’s “in order to be worth anything as a human being”.

Comment #8: Nineveh  on  08/09  at  09:36 AM

I think it’s worth remembering that this comes in the wake of an obscene display of wealth in the royal wedding.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/09  at  09:41 AM

EEks, I was going to your email to send you that article, when I clicked and saw you already had it up.

What SHOULD be the US takeaway from it, IMO, is that the first paragraph is describes exactly the attitude that the Teabagger types promote, and that was on display so recently in our Congress.  Thee are willign to smash, and destroy society (or financial stability for all) because they feel they are excluded.  The difference it seems is that the disenfranchised youth of England destroy society in order to change it to including them, while the Teabaggers want everyone to adopt their own destructive antisocial behavior.

Comment #10: phylosopher  on  08/09  at  09:56 AM

Indeed, I think the government recognizes that consumer spending on these products is a good thing that provides jobs and tax revenue.

To China, Vietnam,  and El Salvador, that is.

Comment #11: Steve LaBonne  on  08/09  at  10:08 AM

Then you have to realize that this sort of thing is a consequence of that decision. Same with things such as drug dealing. If people get the message that spending and items are an indicator of ones value as a person, then people WILL react to that message. And expecting one behavior for the poor and one behavior for the rich, quite frankly, is deprived. A better way to put it, is if we’re going to move away from a materialistic, comparative culture, the well-off need to lead the way.

Comment #12: Karmakin  on  08/09  at  10:17 AM

Margaret Thatcher is supposed to have said: “There is no such thing as society.”

So whether Ayn Rand has ever been read in Britain or not, they’ve long been on their way to the present disaster.

And they deserve it.

Comment #13: wapsie  on  08/09  at  10:23 AM

Manufacturing jobs, sure.

You think an economy can dispense with those? Everybody can be an engineer or a manger or a lawyer?

White-collar professionals are actually doing pretty OK even right now. You won’t buy social peace by only continuing to take care of them so they can continue to buy Chinese-made goodies. The people who aren’t beneficiaries of this bargain will make themselves heard sooner or later.

Comment #14: Steve LaBonne  on  08/09  at  10:24 AM

And expecting one behavior for the poor and one behavior for the rich, quite frankly, is deprived.

But par for the course. As Oliver Letwin put it,  “We don’t want more people from Sheffield flying away on cheap holidays.” Not allowing access to the things the rich enjoy to everyone else, is itself one of the pleasures of being a certain type of rich person.

Also, the tax revenue is still US revenue.

Ah, that it explains it. The UK’s tax revenue is all going to Washington.


 

Comment #15: Nineveh  on  08/09  at  10:26 AM

You think the best way to help the poor is to put them in an unskilled shoe-making assembly job?  And where does that leave the poor Chinese guy?  Or is it just “Screw the Chinese?”

Your first question is insincere- of course there need to be unskilled jobs in any healthy economy, and you know that damned well. As to the second (which by the way is inconsistent with the first, since it shows that you clearly realize such jobs do indeed benefit the people who hold them), I expect my country’s leaders to put my country’s interests first. The way China’s leaders (quite rightly) do for their country.

Comment #16: Steve LaBonne  on  08/09  at  10:41 AM

@#14:  Yeah, if corporations actually paid their taxes.  Furthermore, while many of these items are required (everyone will need to eat, and shoes are still a good idea if you want to take care of your feet), we aren’t objecting to their necessity, we’re objecting to the idea that material possessions are what determines a person’s worth.

Also, I’m with Bill Hicks in regards to people in marketing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

Comment #17: progrocker  on  08/09  at  10:47 AM

#9 Amanda, right—because wedding’s aren’t magic. I remember as a girl watching Diana’s wedding and all of the British commentators saying that it was bringing unity to Britain in a way they hadn’t seen since before the riots (of the 70’s). It was condescending then and it’s even more so now to think that watching the monarchy throw their money around should make someone feel more patriotic.

#10 phylo, that’s what I got from it too—that she was accurately describing tea baggers as well as rioters. Tea baggers are more successful anarchists because their money allows them to escape the mess they’ve made. When the rioters get up tomorrow morning, they have nowhere else to go but the streets that they’ve destroyed.

Comment #18: serious bette  on  08/09  at  10:49 AM

Looks like my comment got eaten. :(  Are we no longer allowed to include links or something?  Anyway, if it comes through sorry for the double post.

@#14: Yeah, it would be if corporations paid their taxes.

Comment #19: progrocker  on  08/09  at  10:51 AM

Oops, there it is . :/

Comment #20: progrocker  on  08/09  at  10:52 AM

We have a society in which people are bombarded with messages that they must have X,Y,Z to order to be worth anything as a human being.

Well, the stereotype of a lower-class Briton is someone who wears obnoxiously loud, high priced designer clothing and gaudy jewelry. Theyre not alienated because they lack access to luxury goods. They’re alienated because they’re discovering that money can’t buy social capital or public services.

That and the UK has been going through some kind of social/cultural decline for a while now and developing the attendant social pathologies. In the same way that many white collar immigrants are choosing not to come to the US, they’re eschewing the UK, as well, in favor of other destinations.

Comment #21: Tyro  on  08/09  at  10:55 AM

One of the things I read recently is that riots like this are actually most common in unequal societies.  That is, its not that people are poor or lower-class that makes them angry, it’s that they are poor or lower-class while others are obscenely rich.  It’s one of the effects of gutting the middle class—you see this huge gap between you and the people at the top and there is nothing bridging that gap.  You know that the people at the top don’t give a crap about you and that unless you win the lottery or become a pop or sports star, you have no credible means of moving up.  There’s nowhere to channel the frustration.

Comment #22: Kit-Kat  on  08/09  at  11:14 AM

No matter.  If the only thing holding a system together is the expectation that 100% of the people who are routinely mistreated and abused will always take the high road, that system is doomed to failure.  You have to build systems for people as they are, and any random group of people will have high road takers, low road takers, and a huge mass in-between that can go any way, depending on the circumstances.  You want that huge mass to have incentives to act right, and you want the low road people to be small enough group that they’re easy to single out.

Can we tattoo this on the back of the hand of every politician and policy maker? And get people to bloody well understand it?

Comment #23: witless chum  on  08/09  at  11:20 AM

anoNY2, why you are seeing in the UK is the result of more than 30 of Thatcherist conservative ideology. Your best move in this thread is to shut the fuck up and not spew the morally failed worthless libertarian ideology that you mistakenly adhere to. You are espousing a worthless a d failed belief system that has ruined people’s lives, and the least you could do is STAY AWAY from threads where the consequence of such a failed belief system has become clear. No one wants to hea how the solution a failing society like the UK is MORE Thatcherist conservo-libertarian beliefs.  They’re bullshit and don’t help anyone solve their problems, so shut the fuck up about them. what does your shitty, worthless belief system offer these people? It offers them nothing—it’s just solace for mediocre privileged worhless douchebags like yourself. So save it.

Comment #24: Tyro  on  08/09  at  11:23 AM

Well, the stereotype of a lower-class Briton is someone who wears obnoxiously loud, high priced designer clothing and gaudy jewelry. Theyre not alienated because they lack access to luxury goods. They’re alienated because they’re discovering that money can’t buy social capital or public services.

Basing reasoning on stereotypes: what could possibly go wrong?

Not that I recognise this stereotype anyway. A Kappa shellsuit from TK Maxx is not “high priced designer clothing” in anybody’s book, and the jewellery isn’t even of the standard that Ratner’s used to sell.

Comment #25: Dunc  on  08/09  at  11:29 AM

You think the best way to help the poor is to put them in an unskilled shoe-making assembly job?

The American industrial sector provided many Americans with regular paychecks and enough benefits to support their families, lives, and communities. Even if you were just a cog in the machine at Bowing or GM you still got a regular paycheck and enough benefits that you could afford the risky activities of putting down roots like registering to vote, buying a house, and chatting up the staff at the local shops. The modern service industry is structured around the philosophy that below a certain pay grade everyone is expendable. I could work two years at Old Navy and still be on the chopping block when it comes to downsizing or management needs a scapegoat so why bother putting down roots? You’re forcing a population into a state of permanent transience and then wonder why they feel excluded from the community.

Comment #26: scrumby  on  08/09  at  11:32 AM

Tyro, “many white collar immigrants are choosing not to come to the US” because the US government will not let them in.  Our immigration policies, as we all here know, are totally f*cked up.

Comment #27: helen w. h.  on  08/09  at  11:35 AM

or in the shiny academies which, quietly, rid themselves of the most disturbed kids.

Depends on what one means by “disturbed kids”.  If we’re talking disabilities causing them to underperform without accommodations to account for them, I agree that this is wrong. 

If we’re talking kids prone to violence, then I must strongly beg to differ. 

My opinion on this is colored by my experience with violent junior high classmates* who made the lives hell for the rest of us, college classmates’/colleagues’ experience with their high schools, and an ongoing situation where a client’s granddaughter’s suburban public high school admins is actually appealing a court order to keep the attacker/stalker separated from the rest of the school population.  Even after he has been found guilty of physically assaulting and stalking her….including throwing her down a flight of stairs.  WTH are those school admins and their supporters thinking???

* Most are now serving time in Rikers for physical assaults/robbery committed during or after I went off to high school.

Comment #28: exholt  on  08/09  at  11:41 AM

anoNY2: I blame autocorrect.

Comment #29: Tyro  on  08/09  at  11:52 AM

I am amused that anoNY2 is so deeply concerned about China and the Chinese.  Perhaps he has plenty of concern left over from not giving a flying shit about people living in the US.  Of course, we’re just his fellow countrymen, so screw us…

Comment #30: MikeEss  on  08/09  at  11:56 AM

Tax breaks and loopholes, what we really need to do in not do away with tax breaks but return them to their more historical place of being given for things that actually benefit the businesses and their communities: tax breaks for reinvestment in capital equipment rather than a tax on it; tax breaks for R&D rather than a tax on it/the facilities and materials required for it; no tax on any income that is paid out as dividends by rightly considering dividends paying back a loan/financing for start up and operation; training and educcation being considered necessary costs of business for tax purposes, etc.

Comment #31: helen w. h.  on  08/09  at  12:02 PM

Tyro, “many white collar immigrants are choosing not to come to the US” because the US government will not let them in.

First we must remember that the history of the US is marked by the search for cheap labor, which drives immigration. Sinclair’s The Jungle provides a digestible account. Getting immigrants to perform low skilled and unskilled labor was not a problem, but what about brainworkers? Most educated people did well enough in their home countries so they were not motivated to come to the US.

Then, since the 1960s, the US has welcomed Third World geniuses to go to graduate school in this country. Contrasting a future spent cooking over a dung fire with American air conditioning, color TV, and personal luxury vehicles, these grad students found a way to remain, even if it meant depressing the going rate for US citizens and green card holders.

There is a very weak counter stream of thought that argues that America’s best jobs should be saved for Americans and green card holders. There is yet another that argues against the drain of brains from societies that need them more than the US does. There is a definite trend of the homesick to go back to newly modernized societies, some, like Singapore, far more developed than is the US.

Comment #32: Hector B.  on  08/09  at  12:05 PM

we’ve received some complaints…

 

what’s the harm of atheism?

 


http://www.valentinesperformingpigs.com/images/piglets_red_spotted.jpg

(btw, this one looks like you, amanda)

 

http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/forum?func=view&catid=3&id=4321

 

Comment #33: xdoz20000  on  08/09  at  12:13 PM

Hector B,
You clearly have not tried to help a grad student try to figure out how to stay in the US after earning their dergee recently.  What you discribe is how it used to work and doesn’t really any longer.  They are going to Singepore because they are welcomed ther, anyone with a US or UK degree has an advantage.  They have a wonderful government site for helping prospective immigrants. (Family has currently been looking into situation in SE Asia as spouse is planning to expand his company there to allow for manufacture nearer to the point of sale.)

Comment #34: helen w. h.  on  08/09  at  12:16 PM

shorter anoNY2: Things can never be any different, and the fact that they used to be different is not an argument in favor of the possibility of change.

Comment #35: Punditus Maximus  on  08/09  at  12:34 PM

“I am concerned with both the idea that I shouldn’t care about people in other countries (something the neocons would certainly applaud)...”

Care about them all you want.  Be my guest.  I’m sure you’re just a big ol’ bleeding heart who’s simply in love with his fellow man.

Here’s a thought.  If you’re worried about somebody in China getting a job, but not worried about someone in your own country getting/keeping a job, that’s just fine and dandy.  But in the event that either a bunch of Chinese or a bunch of Americans start rioting and going all Rodney-King-Verdict because they can’t get decent jobs, which of the two will affect you more? 

If you think about it I’m sure you can appreciate, for purely selfish and practical reasons if nothing else, why you should be very supportive of economic policies that promote creating/maintaining an adequate supply of good jobs here in the USA…

Comment #36: MikeEss  on  08/09  at  12:55 PM

Unfortunately the quote is still bullshit that assumes that the rioters are subhuman monsters rioting for the raw thrill of carnage and chaos, some group of half-formed Jokers unleashed on a land without Batman, unrestrained by their powerful dark-skinned desire to destroy and kill for the basest of reasons.

When the real reason of the riots is sadly more pedestrian:

The riots began on 6 August in Tottenham, a northern borough of London, sparked by community rage over the fatal shooting of a young man by police officers and a lack of response from the authorities.

So cops decide to import some American police work shooting someone’s kid and then refusing to internally investigate not realizing that Europe hasn’t had decades of getting used to the notion of accepting any “collateral damage” in the “War on Crime”. This also combined with the corruption seen, especially in London police, as part of the Murdoch scandals where police were paid off not to notice that their evidence was being tampered with by Murdoch’s empire thus delaying investigations into the deaths and kidnappings of kids and thus putting more kids at risk.

And now the police trying to get some of their machismo back and thoroughly embarrassed by the fact that in Europe they will rise up and riot if the police are acting improperly and corrupt have decided to go old school demonization.

I have not read a single story coming out that hasn’t been half arguments about how the rioters are subhuman monsters with no connection to morals and barely above terrorists. Even the article I quoted. And the responses from the officials in charge have been wingnut worthy in their wording.

Even the quote above seems to want to blame the riots on some inherent problem of the rioters (who happen to contain a number of black and brown people seeing as how the initial complaint was about the unarmed shooting of a young black man), some genetic failing on their part, and I can’t help but feel New Orleans flashbacks when it was argued that everything would have been fine if the black residents being barred into the Superdome rather than evacuated hadn’t been such irredeemable mud people.

What has struck me about this whole rigmarole is that the UK is trying to really double down on the authoritarian tactics they learned from the US. Giving cops guns for non-critical (i.e. SWAT style missions), shooting kids and then refusing to investigate, viewing their constituents as subhuman, and definitely trying to undermine the urge to riot as a social protest action in order to defang the threat of letting the police state go wild on the population.

There have been a lot of shifts in the UK in recent months that have me very worried for them. The growing racial tension of whites wanting the elimination of black and brown UK citizens, the growth of legitimate critiques of Islam into outright hate for Islamic people and the growth of eliminationism in that direction, the growth of authoritarian police cultures, the surveillance state (CCTVs everywhere), and of course the importation of bad economic models from the states including the beginnings of tax cut fever and the demonization of the social safety net.

I worry that we’ll be the first 21st century first-world nation to devolve into fascism, but it’s possible that the UK may get there first if the citizens don’t start making positive changes.

Which might explain why the news stories out of Britain are one step away from calling the rioters a marauding horde of orcs. If you defang the public’s urge to riot over injustice, then you defang much of the public’s ability to put fear into the heart of the police state.

Especially when this could probably all be solved or at least calmed down by the police having the decency to throw up a fake investigation into the shooting and a fake aura of sincerity before inevitably concluding that there was nothing to see here like American police do.

That all said, it is tragic and unfortunate that so many peoples lives are at risk with the fires and am glad that no civilians have been injured or killed yet (otherwise the news stories would focus on them instead of the evil crime of evil that is “looting”, oh, yes, crime against property, let us hear that dogwhistle blow). I hope that continues and I hope that the UK can get off the path they’ve been on.

Comment #37: Cerberus  on  08/09  at  01:23 PM

I want Americans to have jobs

Actually, your own personal philosophy is unconcerned with this particular point—you said so yourself that you didn’t feel it was worth it for the US government to pay special care about their own people being employed. Libertarians certainly don’t mind being employed, but your religious belief system of libertarian is wedded to demands that a certain set of policies anprocesses be followed, and if it results in Americans having jobs, good, and if it doesn’t, that’s just the invisible hand of the market causing social destruction. That’s why your belief system is completely worthless to humanity and gives us no help in dealing with the social problems in the UK or the US in the present day. It does make moral midgets like yourself feel better about yourself, though.

Comment #38: Tyro  on  08/09  at  01:32 PM

what it costs probably couldn’t even pay for a week’s worth of meals

Of course it can.  I guess you don’t have any concept of what designer sneakers cost, or maybe your perception is colored by the cost of eating fresh and organic in New York, but you can certainly eat well for $100-$150 a week.

Comment #39: keshmeshi  on  08/09  at  01:40 PM

*I have nothing to add that hasn’t already been said, but…*

What’s funny is that my Mac is telling me that “autocorrect” isn’t a word.  Must be some kind of beef with Microsoft…

No, it’s just trying to distance itself from its insane cousin, the iPhone LOL

http://damnyouautocorrect.com/

Comment #40: Ruby  on  08/09  at  01:40 PM

ano-

On what is better. Well, personally I skew towards non-violent myself.

That said, it’s not really about what I view as most effective.

The thing about Europe social movements is that when the government or the police act badly there are recriminations from the population in either uprisings (the take over the streets as non-violently as you can) or riots (smash it up, make it memorable, let the order now there is a cost for bad behavior that can involve revolution).

These are the tactics that have been seen repeatedly and the strength of the safety net and the rights afforded the citizenry in many countries certainly argues that they find such tactics at least somewhat effective at blocking authoritarian reforms in many countries and demanding attention and reforms to the powerless when the system has failed them.

It’s a common enough tactic that the UK police and media shouldn’t be this thrown out of whack. This is to be expected when you are arrogant enough to shoot a kid and not even deign to investigate the case or acknowledge in any meaningful way the police screwup. This is what happens when you try and pull this shit in the UK. Fuck, the city of Liverpool has grudges that continue to this day with police forces and media outlets entirely because of police incompetence, much less outright police murder like this.

On “looting”, there is always going to be the opportunist. Note however that every time there is unrest that is nonviolent in that it has injured or killed no civilians, the papers always report the epic level crime of “looting” to make the protestors look as if they have no purpose or point. Yes, when things are getting smashed up, the poor are going to take home goods from businesses, many of whom will have no connection to the people doing the smashing. This is what theft insurance is for and it doesn’t at all stain the movement as a whole anymore than the existence of parking police makes it so no police anywhere serves an important role to public safety.

As I said, personally, I support non-violence, that’s how I roll, but this is what has worked for Europe for a long long time and I recognize that this is the price a government or police force there pays for bad behavior and the behavior there certainly is objectionable in the highest order.

Certainly the fact that most major European countries have avoided the “shoot first, ask questions later” justice-fails we’ve seen in the States and the way non-violent protests in the States of the murder of civilians by cops have often failed by dirty and underhanded tactics by the police, I can see the argument for the “smash shit up” strategy even if I have my own personal problems with it on a personal morality level.

It’s simply more effective. And it’s simply how it works in Europe. This shouldn’t have at all been a surprise to them.

Comment #41: Cerberus  on  08/09  at  01:56 PM

Does anyone remember the first phase of the American occupation of Baghdad, and how Donald Rumsfeld dismissed looting as the byproduct of freedom? I think it’s an interesting point to interrogate. Did Iraqis have some justification to engage in mayhem and looting, given that they were brutalized under Saddam and the sanctions regime? I may be wrong on this, but I remember the failure of American forces to maintain order was a blow to their credibility vis-a-vis the Iraqi civilians, who despaired at the lawlessness. Obviously, you can understand the underlying motivations without justifying the actions, but I wonder if we intuitively grasp the the two events in the same way.

Comment #42: ArielNYC  on  08/09  at  02:07 PM

This is what theft insurance is for and it doesn’t at all stain the movement as a whole anymore than the existence of parking police makes it so no police anywhere serves an important role to public safety.

That insurance must be more extensive in the UK, then.  From what I’ve seen and heard about from friends who regulate insurance companies in the US….most insurance policies for businesses have clauses absolving the insurers of coverage during “Civil Unrest” or “Insurrections”. 

In fact, there was a news item some years back where homeowners, small businesses, and car owners found they were out of luck because the damage/destruction was caused by rioting sports fans and thus, not covered under most insurance policies.

Comment #43: exholt  on  08/09  at  02:09 PM

@anoNY2: I think they might have learned the same lesson we have. Peaceful protesting is a one way ticket to be utterly and completely ignored. Well, unless the owner class really hates you because you oppose something like cheap, easily oppressed labor. Then you’re going to be painted as violent thugs no matter how peaceful you are.

The all but ignored anti-war protests are a good example of the former, the protests in Wisconsin the latter.

But hey, if you protest in support of the things rich people like, like tax cuts, you’re going to be called a massive movement even if only ten people show up.

Comment #44: JThompson  on  08/09  at  02:25 PM

Exholt-

Functional theft insurance, then?

I have my own problems with the concept of private insurance as it is often used as a means to avoid payment promised by whatever loophole possible. Certainly a public insurance program would be able to pay for damage done without any of those shenanigans and probably for cheaper as there would be no need to insure profits.

But the purpose of theft insurance is to protect against things like this.

Whether or not it works that way in reality is a problem of how private insurance further fails to meet the purpose it is there for.

Comment #45: Cerberus  on  08/09  at  02:25 PM

And by “all but ignored” I meant “completely ignored”. Preview is your friend.

Comment #46: JThompson  on  08/09  at  02:28 PM

On the topic of being ignored, doesn’t that just mean that the population in general doesn’t see the issue as pressing?

I like how you pretend that the wealthy class, despite owning pretty much all the news outlets, exerts no influence on the public perception of such events.

Millions of people showed up to protest the Iraq war - the news outlets virtually ignored them, and we got a war. Tens of thousands - at most - showed up to the early Tea Party rallies. The news was all over that shit, and now the Tea Party is exerting influence over Congress.

Your whole disingenuous philosophy is predicated on ignoring the fact that money gives the wealthy the power to shape society

Comment #47: Triplanetary  on  08/09  at  02:53 PM

anoNY2: The population might see the issue as pressing if they ever heard about it. The only people that hear of most protests are the people that follow politics closely and are politically aligned with them. It’s preaching to the choir.

They won’t hear about most of the peaceful ones. If you’re violent, they’ll hear about it immediately.

That being said, I’m still a little iffy on violence as a tactic. The only way it’s remotely excusable is as a tactic of last resort. Unfortunately for a lot of people, this IS their last resort. They see their back as being totally to the wall, and in many cases, they’re probably right.

Comment #48: JThompson  on  08/09  at  03:08 PM

“If we pull faces and say that the only moral position is to write off the rioters as thugs and monsters, we’re left with the question of why some communities break out into fire and some do not, why some people’s children are rioting in the streets and some are not.”

It’s not ever as simple as that.

There are rich people’s children who riot. David Cameron belonged to a drinking club at Oxford in which the “notorious dinners typically involve members booking a private dining room (under an assumed name) and drinking themselves silly before destroying it elaborately. They wear royal blue tailcoats with ivory lapels, and - having made merry - pride themselves in politely paying the restaurant’s owners compensation in high-denomination banknotes.”

There are poor people’s children who did not riot. (The overwhelming majority of the rioters that I have seen on any video evidence were male.)

Yes, what happened in the UK is a consequence of police killing a man and then letting his family find out from newspaper headlines and then ignoring his family and friends when they came to silently protest and to ask for answers, 48 hours later, and a consequence of riot police beating a teenage girl with their riot shields: and a consequence of tuition fees and cutting maintenance grants, cutting public funding for non-essential services specifically targeted at youngsters in poverty-stricken areas. All of that.

But nothing like a city-wide riot can be explained simply. Any attempt to get a simple answer will be the wrong one.

Comment #49: Jesurgislac  on  08/09  at  03:44 PM

@48: I hadn’t heard the police had refused to start an internal investigation of the death of Mark Duggan, but if they did it would be perfectly reasonable ... the IPCC (Independent Police Complaints Commission) would likely get very shirty about interference in their investigation. The IPCC investigates all police shootings (amongst other things) and reported today that there is no evidence that Mark Duggan fired any gun ... so the notion that there would be no investigation into this is nonsense.

The rioting may have been sparked by the shooting of Mark Duggan, but very quickly turned into something else.

@9: Perhaps surprisingly, the royal wedding probably had very little to do with this. In general the Germans in the palace are quite popular with the British public - something like a 76% approval rating. Probably lower amongst the rioters smile

But I don’t believe extreme wealth is behind this rioting (even if much of the rioting included looting), but more because of social exclusion - many young people today feel they are excluded from society because of a lack of jobs, the lack of any prospect of jobs, and a government perceived as making self-improvement through education much harder (or less specifically, a government on the side of the wealthy).

If you look in a shop window at an expensive plasma TV and think “in a few years I might have one of those” you probably won’t join in any looting. If you’re thinking “I’ll never be able to get that”, you just might.

The hoodies need hope!

Comment #50: veryz  on  08/09  at  04:01 PM

This is what theft insurance is for and it doesn’t at all stain the movement as a whole anymore than the existence of parking police makes it so no police anywhere serves an important role to public safety.

Cerberus @ 54: a certain portion of parking police duties are directly involved with public safety.  Haven’t you ever heard of fire lanes?  Know anything about accidents caused by sidewalk and shoulder areas being blocked by parked vehicles?  Or have you not ever thought about these things and just threw out snark?  Yes, their more common activities are for economic purposes, but they are also public safety personnel.

Comment #51: helen w. h.  on  08/09  at  04:02 PM

helen-

Yeah, I know, I was struggling to find the proper “everything is tainted because a small number are viewed as unnecessary” analogy as related to police. Parking police was the closest I could think of because they are publicly not well perceived of and a lot of their benefits to public safety are indirect.

But yes, without parking police, then gridlock would be much worse and necessary services would be impacted both financial and safety.

If you’ve got a better analogy to what I was trying to say, I’d appreciate it. I was just trying to point out to someone who reflexively defends police why the presence of “looters” doesn’t mean the protest has no point or legitimate grievances.

Comment #52: Cerberus  on  08/09  at  04:10 PM

There are other sources of news besides the MSM.  If people don’t care about the issue, they won’t take the time to check out competing sources, but it doesn’t change the fact that they don’t care.
Comment #64: anoNY2 on 08/09 at 03:14 PM

But then they don’t care because they haven’t heard about it. 

And if the MSM never covers it they’ll never hear about it unless they go digging for something they don’t even know exists.

Comment #53: oldfeminist  on  08/09  at  04:15 PM

I see the police have admitted lying about the circumstances of the shooting of Mark Duggan. It would really, really help public trust in the police if the Met didn’t have this pattern of killing people and then lying about the circumstances in which they did it until the video footage proving otherwise shows up.

Comment #54: Nineveh  on  08/09  at  04:49 PM

Apparently property damage from riots in the UK is compensated by the police who failed to keep order:  http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-cost-taxpayer-100-million

Comment #55: Nutella  on  08/09  at  07:10 PM

@Triplanetary

Millions of people showed up to protest the Iraq war - the news outlets virtually ignored them, and we got a war. Tens of thousands - at most - showed up to the early Tea Party rallies. The news was all over that shit, and now the Tea Party is exerting influence over Congress.

The tea baggers showed up hard in Republican primaries to hit at Republican candidates, and turned out in force to vote in 2010. Where were all the millions of Iraq War protesters in the 2002 elections, when it could have made a huge difference? At the very least, it could have made many of the Democrats re-think support for the war.

 

Comment #56: Bass  on  08/09  at  07:24 PM

My post got eaten. This is a test post.

Comment #57: Bass  on  08/09  at  07:25 PM

So to be against protectionism is to automatically be against Americans!

Yes, you now have it.  Good for you.

 

Comment #58: Punditus Maximus  on  08/09  at  07:48 PM

And we (the U.S.) outsources the wealth itself - see Panama new tax haven rules.

Comment #59: phylosopher  on  08/09  at  08:10 PM

Of course we don’t have any interest in a healthy China that currently helps fund our social spending.  I think we have just as much interest in a healthy world economy as we do in a healthy national economy.
Comment #27: anoNY2 on 08/09 at 11:15 AM

You’d have to couple that with an interest in a healthy world - which would start with ending a lot of the GATT garbage that guts environmental law.

Comment #60: phylosopher  on  08/09  at  08:17 PM

The UNIONIZED American industrial sector provided many Americans with regular paychecks and enough benefits to support their families…

Hope you don’t mind that I fixed that for you, Scrumby.  Because union jobs went even further - they often allowed the stable base for the kids of those union workers to concentrate on their educations, go to university and get true whitecollar, middle class jobs and entrench themselves firmly as “middle class.” 

That today’s independent and left center voter-and that’s what the corporatists want to take down. They like the politically stupid.

Comment #61: phylosopher  on  08/09  at  09:02 PM

But that is the place where we disagree, our definition of good “economic policies that promote creating/maintaining an adequate supply of good jobs here in the USA”.  I don’t want to put restrictions on trade that make us a protectionist state.  I want Americans to have jobs, but I don’t want the government to start forcing people to “buy American.”
Comment #47: anoNY2 on 08/09 at 01:18 PM

OK then, hope you’ll also worry about the conditions under which those Chinese work, and the pollution that affects their children.  Since many Americans at least pay lip service to environmental and humanitarian concerns, why not charge a premium for violations of those values. Why not highly tax imported items that are grown using banned in the US pesticides, or tax clothing made in foreign sweatshops with child labor unless the country of origin allows inspection by a neutral third party certifier?

 

Comment #63: phylosopher  on  08/09  at  09:11 PM

To anony2 #52:

Non violent protests?  You are kidding, right? how many of those actually even get reported anymore? They’re dismissed as a fringe group, or oh, just a bunch of disgruntled former hippies.  If they’re covered at all.

Comment #64: phylosopher  on  08/09  at  09:17 PM

Well ano, @ #61, the reason people will pay attention to a violent protest and ignore a non-violent one is first of all coverage. The non-violent protest gets none. 

Second and perhaps more importantly, it’s a matter of it
affecting them.  Don’t know if you’ve ever lived with family or a roommate, but if you have, you might know how it goes -
you ask someone to do something, take out the garbage, or fix a leaky faucet, nicely, politely and they may even agree that it is fairly their turn, or their responsibility.  But you nice it doesn’t get done, the requesting intensifies and is still ignored - until you put the trash in their path,  or the drip rebaches their level of hearing annoyance.

A non-violent protest can be ignored - a vioelnt one makes the individual think twice about venturing into the city, allowing their child to,  etc.

Comment #65: phylosopher  on  08/09  at  09:28 PM

@phylosopher: to a libertarian, the environment does not exist.  You have to keep in mind that conservatives generally don’t mean much of what they say, so expecting some kind of consistency isn’t sensible. 

So, yeah, if anoNYC brings up China, you’d expect him to be interested in environmental effects or human rights abuses, but that’s not really true.  It’s just something to say.  The big thing is that the point of human existence is to kowtow to this idealized fiction of the Free Market.  It’s not meaningfully different from any other religion; all of the post-hoc justifications are just the appearance of thinking, not the thing itself.

Comment #66: Punditus Maximus  on  08/09  at  09:30 PM

Where were all the millions of Iraq War protesters in the 2002 elections, when it could have made a huge difference? At the very least, it could have made many of the Democrats re-think support for the war.

It has been a while, but it’s important to remember that the Republicans insisted that congress vote on the AUMF before the 2002 mid term election. They hoped, quite rightly as it turned out, to defang it as an election issue. And it worked. A lot of people didn’t bother voting in the election precisely because they saw a whole bunch of very cowardly Democrats not only fall for that trap but then fail to muster meaningful opposition. While the house vote was never in doubt - Republicans had the majority - the Senate was 51/49 and 29 democrats voted in favor.

FWIW, I did turn out to vote in that election. But having seen the democrats fail to muster up anything remotely like opposition to what was by election eve a foregone conclusion, I was very demoralized. And the point is that a huge turnout would have been too late to make democrats re-think anything. I can imagine that turned a lot of people away.

 

Comment #67: Ross Lincoln  on  08/09  at  09:42 PM

What do the riots look like against a London Transport map? In the US in the 60s, rioters typically damaged mostly their own neighborhoods because that was the only place they could get to (Watts was famously cut off the freeways and other forms of mass transportation).

Oh, and on the expensive-shoes thing, this isn’t a sign that the poor people are well off, this is a sign that they’re being taxed in much the same way that clerical and professional women are taxed by having to wear all that “office-appropriate” clothing and accessory stuff. They more they spend on that crap, the less they can save or spend on things that might get them out of poverty.

Finally, to Steve LaBonne: today’s “conservatives” really seem out to justify the “parasite” title that socialists and anarchists used to throw around. Sometimes I wish that the ghost of Bismarck would haunt them all screaming “Don’t you effing understand why you have to have social services you cowardly losers!”

Comment #68: paul  on  08/09  at  09:49 PM

In the US in the 60s, rioters typically damaged mostly their own neighborhoods because that was the only place they could get to (Watts was famously cut off the freeways and other forms of mass transportation).

No, rioters destroyed their own neighborhoods because people who act violently rarely do so in a rational manner and always end up causing collateral damage to people who don’t deserve it. Riots in DC occurred in neighborhoods that were easily walking distance from more deserving targets. Lashing out against “the man” always ends up manifesting as lashing out against the small business owner Mr. Smith who owns the corner store because rioting against a police station or a government building would be actually dangerous and have serious consequences.

Comment #69: Tyro  on  08/09  at  11:05 PM

Sorry, Tyro, but I eyewitnessed Chicago in the ‘60’s, both of the ‘68 riots.  You better believe the establishment Richie Daley senior at the time) used the Chicago River as a moat to cut off entire neighborhoods by raising the bridges over the river, stationing cops at expressway overpasses, halting all auto traffic, etc.

It was definitely a scorched earth tactic.

Comment #70: phylosopher  on  08/09  at  11:48 PM

It was definitely a scorched earth tactic.

The scorched earth tactics were on the part of the rioters.

Comment #71: Tyro  on  08/09  at  11:51 PM

The UNIONIZED American industrial sector provided many Americans with regular paychecks and enough benefits to support their families…

Hope you don’t mind that I fixed that for you, Scrumby.  Because union jobs went even further - they often allowed the stable base for the kids of those union workers to concentrate on their educations, go to university and get true whitecollar, middle class jobs and entrench themselves firmly as “middle class.”

That today’s independent and left center voter-and that’s what the corporatists want to take down. They like the politically stupid.

Oh I’m very aware of the benefits of unions; the UAW put a roof over my head and food in my belly for 20 years. The right wing destruction of US industry these past few decades was mostly about killing off unions, poisoning the hole to kill the gophers. They’re pulling out all the stops to court non-union shops now but so much business has moved out of the country it’s not just going to up and move back because you’ve finally got the house like you want it.

Comment #72: scrumby  on  08/10  at  12:36 AM

Disagree there Tyro, the establishment just let the West side and Woodlawn burn.  Intentionally destroying what black middle class there was, because they and their children were seen as getting too uppity by Daley et al.

The 1969 murder by police of an intentionally set up, drugged and sleeping Fred Hampton followed those 1968 riots. Mark Clark was also killed in the police violence.

Comment #73: phylosopher  on  08/10  at  01:39 AM

I’m not excusing the rioters.  At the end of the day, each individual has moral responsibility not to stab, throw things, or set fire to the possessions of innocent people.  But the rioters aren’t the only people who have flouted their moral obligations here.

Though true, even having this discussion is seen by many riot victims or neighborhood residents caught in the midst of rioting as “excusing the rioters” and rubbing salt in their wounds after seeing their businesses and/or homes burnt out.  Even if they end up getting compensated through some public insurance scheme, it doesn’t solve the issue that their feelings of safety and normalcy has been violated. 

Especially when you have residents who have negative perceptions of rioters and a society “soft on crime” like one resident caught in the riots quoted below:

The weird thing is if you went up and hit a kid who was threatening you he would have the law on you in a second and the cops would arrest you .I have actually seen this even in Norfolk.Some local kids taunted a gay ever time they followed him home ,shouted at his house ,spray painted homophobic daubings .When he hit one of the the kids in question he was arrested and charged, accused of rape.It was all dropped in the end after one of the kids admiited that it was lying but took it about a year to actually drop the charges.When my friends son was murdered the police were far more interested in making sure the 15 year old killer was given full legal advice and a childrens officer to advise him despite being a known thug .Naturally they all clammed up and a walked free for lack of evidence despite witnesses .The kids know there is a nice warm lawyer and child protection officer waiting to make sure they dont get arrested.Thats why the cops arent arresting kids .Our human rights laws are a farce and will one day ensure that we get an over the top right wing government .I would vote for any party that repealed our damn human rights laws,they are beyond a farce and an insult .

 

Comment #74: exholt  on  08/10  at  09:31 AM

I have a libertarian coworker that I sometimes get into arguments with.  He’s all right with government-provided infrastructure that provides a direct benefit to him, like roads - but he’s against things like welfare that he considers “wealth redistribution”.

If these riots illustrate anything, it’s this:  social justice is infrastructure.

Comment #75: DaveL  on  08/10  at  06:46 PM
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