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Next entry: Standing with Amanda Terkel Previous entry: Commenting on Thersites’ comments section appeals to my sense of nostalgia

Lord Saletan asks, “How would you ladies like it if someone could abort your baby, huh?!”

There’s something deliciously transparent about the masculine anxieties guiding William Saletan’s latest two hand-wringing pieces on how yeah, yeah, abortion should be legal, but omigod moral ambiguity.  Thus, his tin ear to the notion that women are full human beings with every right to decide whether or not we shall continue to do work when the terms of the contract change is rather astounding.  The devaluation of women as laborers is exactly why I say that feminism is an economic issue, and honestly, the attitudes he expresses about women’s right not to form a new human being with our own bodies if we don’t want to explain as much about why there’s a persistent pay gap between men and women as anything else.  But less upfront framing, more quoting, right?

First piece is remarkably transparent, right from the get-go.

Would you abort a fetus just because it wasn’t yours?

I’m sick of supposedly pro-choice people who engage in non-medical language like this—-you abort the pregnancy, and the woman (remember her?) is the patient.  She has a condition she would like to go away.  So you stop, aka, abort the process.  But really a minor detail compared the obvious issue with this opening statement: In the view of anti-choicers, all abortions are due to a woman aborting someone else’s fetus.  That fetus was made by the father and belongs to god, and a mere woman has no right to touch it.  Plus, it’s assumed that no woman really wants to—-childbirth is submission to our feminine destinies, and we may resist that up front (because we’re sinners), but if we submit, we’ll be happy we did.

But what Saletan is talking about is an unfortunate situation where a doctor’s office mixed up two embryos, and implanted the wrong one in a woman.  This all happened in Japan, a relevant detail because of what happened next, which is that the woman who had the wrong fetus inside her decided to abort at 8 weeks.  (Saletan makes this sound like it’s far in a pregnancy, but in fact the Guttmacher uses that as the defining point for really early abortions.)  Saletan viciously characterizes the woman who chose abortion as finicky, and even hints that there was a second screw-up, or could have been:

Or, rather, because it may have come from the wrong family. Remember, the first two embryos that went into the woman were hers. For complex reasons, the doctor inferred that the one that had grown was the third one. According to the Yomiuri Shimbun, doctors told the woman on Nov. 8 that “it was not possible to confirm the source of the fertilized egg at that time, but they could analyze the mother’s amniotic fluid in six weeks. However, if she waited that long, it would be too late to terminate the pregnancy.” Apparently, the fetus was subsequently discarded, leaving no way to settle the question.

He goes on at length, describing it as aborting a “child” and suggesting that any decent pro-choicer would find the situation agonizing (because of the “child” thing), and he pits the “bad” woman who had the abortion against the “good” woman who may or may not have lost an embryo, and who needs it more because she’s 40.  Really, the whole thing is disturbing, because he gets so hung up on these details, he glosses over the fact that the case is fundamentally about a woman who decides that she doesn’t want to give her body over to develop a child that isn’t hers.  And that’s her right.  As a decent-minded pro-choicer who remembers that women are people, too, I’m appalled at the idea that we would even consider coercing or bullying a woman into bringing a child into the world with her body to make a complete stranger happy.  That Saletan expects such an immense sacrifice of self—-and of time the woman could spend trying to start another pregnancy that she wants—-speaks to a belief that women’s sacrifice is expected and not appreciated, that our labors are simply worth less than those of men.  Look, I think the fact that I feed my cat every day and change her box should mean that she’s my cat, and I’m not going to magnanimously hand her off as proof that I’m a good, self-sacrificing woman.  I can only imagine how rough that pressure is if you made a child with your own body.  In fact, I don’t have to imagine—-birth mothers don’t speak out as much (probably because they don’t want to break the taboo that adoption is nothing but rainbows and roses), but when they do speak about the profound loss they’ve suffered, it’s devastating.*

Saletan, I suspect, sympathizes more with the woman who made the embryo than the woman who aborted the pregnancy, because the woman who made the embryo is, to be blunt, in a position that’s closer to what a man could find himself in than a woman.  But he’s being myopic beyond just his male-centric worldview—-he’s also being American-centric.  He’s assuming that people’s views about abortion are universally held, and that the universal tailors close to what he, William Saletan, believes.  But while Japan’s take on abortion is probably just as complicated as America’s, it’s complicated in much different ways.  Abortion was legalized in Japan in 1948, but the pill was only legalized in 1999.  It’s still not popular (condoms are favored), and the Japanese birth rate is really low, so the only conclusion is that they use abortion…..a lot.  Some people like to point to the Japanese tradition of offering a small bribe to a temple to keep the ghosts of children not born from haunting you as proof that the Japanese are just as nutty anti-abortion as Americans, but I’m not buying it.  Routine religious observations don’t necessarily tell us squat about lived beliefs.  None of this is to say that I know exactly what’s going on, but I’m offended at Saletan’s assumption that we can project our attitudes on them.

Essay #2 is along the same lines, only the “women’s labor is less valuable” assumptions underlying the abortion debate are more obvious.  A company that arranged surrogacy agreements took money from a bunch of couples and then didn’t pay the surrogates.  Color me unsurprised—-the baby-getting industry is rife with this sort of sleazy behavior.  Which isn’t to slam all of it, of course.  There are a number of respectable, progressive agencies working with in fertility treatment, adoption, and surrogacy.  But there’s a lot of fertility specialists who fudge their numbers, adoption agencies that are affiliated with misogynist religious organizations, black market baby traders who may even steal babies, and of course, you have major anti-choice activists who’ve been caught trying to buy babies from desperate women

But what this means is that a group of employees are being asked to work for no pay.  If they weren’t women who were already subjected to sexist romanticizing about the sacrificial feminine nature, I doubt that anyone would even be concerned for a moment if they chose to abort, especially since surrogate mothers are subject to all sorts of discrimination.  None have chosen to abort, which just makes Saletan’s anxiety even more suspect.  Apparently, it’s a problem that women even have the option to refuse to work for no pay.  That he technically accepts this right only mediates the offensiveness of his stance—-if he really respected women, he wouldn’t even consider such a right to be an excuse to pearl clutch.

Again, I have to point out that the context for this hand-wringing is, as Amy Benfer noted, that this lack of legal control over a woman’s choice to terminate or continue a pregnancy is SOP for men.  Now, that’s legal control—-socially, many people still operate as if men have the final word over what women do with their bodies, which is why MRAs can generate so much outrage when a man’s wishes for a pregnancy outcome are overruled by the woman who is actually pregnant.  That’s why Saletan’s hand-wringing is so damn offensive, because he’s concern trolling the idea that a woman’s right to control her body is for real, and no one should have a trump right over that.  Personally, I consider the social beliefs that women don’t have a right to abort (or use contraception) if they damn well please to be nearly as big an issue as legal access, because the authority that parents, boyfriend, churches, husbands, and other people have over a woman’s life can feel and therefore be as real as the government’s authority. If, for instance, you fear violence if you make certain choices, then you aren’t free to choose, are you?  But here’s Saletan, feeding into the idea that a woman’s right to her own labor and control over her body is, if not a legal issue, subject to exactly that sort of social pressure that feels as real, and sometimes more real, than legal authority.


*Not that all birth mothers feel this way, of course.  But there’s a reason that most women who are “supposed” to give babies up for adoption don’t, and there’s a reason that they had to tie pregnant girls to tables, force them to deliver, and take the baby away before the mother even saw it in the 50s and 60s.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:53 AM • (102) Comments

So, in the case of the woman in Japan, does Saletan think the woman should have carried to term and then given the baby to the biological mother? After all, the fetus wasn’t “hers.”

Comment #1: chingona  on  03/25  at  12:20 PM

Of course men have no moral ambiguity when they contribute to creating these children and then walk away without supporting it.  None of these fundies give a damn about the life of a child.  Life is more than the ability to breathe there is an element of quality that needs to be considered.

Comment #2: womanistmusings  on  03/25  at  12:20 PM

“Some people like to point to the Japanese tradition of offering a small bribe to a temple to keep the ghosts of children not born from haunting you as proof that the Japanese are just as nutty anti-abortion as Americans, but I’m not buying it.”

Considering how dicey it can be to get a service for a miscarriage in fetus-hugging American denominations, it does seem wise to take the Japanese tradition as evidence for anything with a grain of salt.

Comment #3: preying mantis  on  03/25  at  12:21 PM

Oh my head.

If this woman was carrying implanted feti, then she was also undergoing fertility treatments.

Why the ever living fuck should she carry some other person’s child to term, wasting perhaps her only opportunity to have her own?

If she’s having embryos implanted, then she has already made the decision that she wants to be a biological mother to her own child, and that she’s willing to pay for and undergo onerous treatments to get such a pregnancy started.

Aborting makes complete sense—and if she were American, I’d expect her to sue the ever living fuck out of the fertility center.  THERE’S where the misplaced ire belongs—on the assholes who screwed up the one thing they are expected to do—implant the correct embryo into a woman.

Saletan apparently can’t reconcile the fact that a woman would be willing to undergo a pregnancy and have a child with the fact that the same woman could be willing to end a pregnancy and not have a child.

It’s called choice.  If there’s only one option, there’s no choice.  This woman wanted her own child.  She has fertility issues, so she’s going to abort and start over (hopefully at a different clinic). 

The other woman, the woman whose fetus was implanted?  Also wronged.  Also should sue.  But that doesn’t give her the right to force the first woman into an unwanted surrogacy to develop that particular embryo.  That’s all sorts of fucked up.

Forced gestation.  Unacceptable no matter the circumstances.

Comment #4: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/25  at  12:35 PM

In the same vein as ‘women’s work is worth less’: I was reading about breastfeeding on one of the other feminist blogs, and the writer made a really great point, that one of the arguments for breastfeeding, that ‘it’s free’ only works as an argument if you consider a woman’s time to be worth nothing.

Reading that was such an ‘Aha!’ moment for me, I wanted to share it.

I, personally, see no moral ambiguity in abortion. I believe it has to be a woman’s choice, available right up to the moment of birth. No legal limits. Sure, I’m horrified at the thought of a woman changing her mind about having the baby at 8 1/2 months, and having an abortion. But I also trust woman, and know the chances of that happening are vanishingly small, and the chances of a doctor performing the procedure even smaller.

But I worry sometimes that my lack of ambiguity won’t play well with the people in the middle, and that the anti-choice people will use that against us.

Comment #5: JPlum  on  03/25  at  12:36 PM

If Lord Saletan could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

Comment #6: phantom power  on  03/25  at  12:39 PM

This is a little off topic but is anyone a little creeped out by the fertility industry.  A buddy of mone in college donated sperm once a month for at least four years that I know about about.  He was tall and a good student so, at least according to him, his product was in high demand.  I wonder how many kids he has, and what are the odds that a few of them will wind up dating when they are older.

Also, it doesn’t seem healthy to cater to peoples weird desperation to have kids, the whole industry is waste of medical resources.

Comment #7: John Rove  on  03/25  at  12:49 PM

From my male perspective, the first column was a discussion of an interesting corner case, like “What if, you married your grandfather’s 30 year old widow? Would you be your own grandfather? Think about it.” Although now that it’s been pointed out to me, I can see Saletan is really advocating the involuntary servitude of women to make up for the mistakes of others—somehow I don’t think he’d advocate similarly that otherwise uninvolved men drop their plans to take on perhaps life-threatenng work—receiving nothing in return—for the next seven or more months.

It also took me a while to appreciate Amanda’s criticism of the opening sentence: Would you abort a fetus just because it wasn’t yours? But it’s clear now that Saletan could have easily rephrased it as “Would you abort a pregnancy just because the fetus you’re carrying isn’t your own?”

Comment #8: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  12:50 PM

Also, it doesn’t seem healthy to cater to peoples weird desperation to have kids, the whole industry is waste of medical resources.

Do you likewise complain about the unhealthiness of catering to peoples weird desperation to have intercourse? Viagra, Cialis, and Levitra are similarly a waste of medical resources—no one needs to have a hardon to go through life. But what infertility treatments and impotence treatments share is the medical principle of fixing the part of the body that doesn’t work, or finding a work-around such as a prosthesis.

Comment #9: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  12:56 PM

Actually, the Japanese attitude toward abortion is complex, but nothing at all like the anti-abortion right.

My understanding (and the books I read on this were written in the 90’s, so things may have changed) is that, because of the belief in reincarnation, abortion is considered acceptable even though it is also considered killing a human or at least quasi-human being, because you are giving the soul of the child a chance to be reborn somewhere else that is better suited for them. One euphemism for abortion is “returning a child”. And yes, the Japanese do in fact honor the spirits of the “children” they aborted, just as they honor the spirits of the dead in general, but this does not translate into feeling that it is wrong to have an abortion… or rather, it’s more that it’s an acceptable wrong, something sorrowful but not as bad as the alternative of having the child would have been.

Before abortion became safe, the Japanese may have practiced infanticide. They have long had a tradition of controlling reproduction because they live on a tiny-ass island with few resources. One saying they have is “Ichi hime ni taro” (first a princess, second Joe), which is usually interpreted to mean “It’s best to have a girl first and then a boy” (presumably because the girl will help you with the boy.) This has meant in the past that they have practiced infanticide, and now practice abortion, to maintain gender balance (interestingly, although the Japanese have a very sexist culture, there are still elements of ancient matriarchy that turn up from time to time… the cult of the mother, in Japan, actually *does* translate into some small amount of real power for women, counterbalancing the patriarchy they live under.) It’s called “mabiki” or weeding out. They also believe in spacing births, for pretty much the same reasons.

A culture that has historically practiced infanticide to maintain gender balance and space births is *not* suddenly going to go all apeshit about abortion. They view it as a wholly necessary evil.

Comment #10: Alara J Rogers  on  03/25  at  01:05 PM

John Rove, sperm donors are identified by a number that should be shared between agencies. If the child’s parents are straightforward with him or her, the child will at least probably not end up marrying any biological proximates.

I know several infertile people (especially on the internet) and actually, I could see this actually being an agonizing situation: if you’ve worked for years and spent a lot of money to get pregnant (something other people can do as easily as tripping over a futon) but you’re not pregnant with the genes you want, there are a lot of considerations. I mean, depending on why you’re infertile, you may have considered donor eggs or donor sperm already, or surrogacy: honestly, I could conceive of situations where, like adoptive parents who signed up for a six-month-old girl and wind up getting matched with a two-year-old boy, someone shrugs and goes “a baby is a baby and I’ve got a baby, so….”

The idea that this woman who desperately wants a baby should carry out a full-term pregnancy, give birth, and then give up the baby is some of the shittiest reasoning I’ve ever heard in my life, though. The best reasoning for actual people’s actual rights seems to me to be that all other parties give up jurisdiction over their genetic material as soon as it enters a person’s uterus, in the absence of a clearly-drawn contract stipulating otherwise (for example in the case of surrogacy).

However, if you take the misogyny out of the first question, it ends up rephrased as “Would you terminate a pregnancy if you decided it wasn’t a pregnancy you wanted to carry to term?”. Which, duh. Yes.

Comment #11: purpleshoes  on  03/25  at  01:14 PM

I don’t have a problem with the people who seek infertility treatments or adoption at all.  But the reason that there’s a serious sleaze issue both in fertility treatment circles and adoption circles is because we are so wed to the patriarchal ideal of a married couple plus baby that we look the other way and refuse to see it.  Even just shining a more critical light on the issue might clear out some cobwebs.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  01:23 PM

Alara, it sounds like they’ve conceptualized the loss of the potential child in a way that emphasize potentiality, honestly.  Religion’s problem is that metaphors are taken as literal, but in a metaphorical sense, that seems a little more realistic than the metaphors our anti-feminists use to imagine fetuses.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  01:24 PM

Purple, the thing is that we can’t know really how agonizing this necessarily is in Japanese culture.  How people feel about babies, genetics, etc. is very culturally dependent, and it’s interesting because Dorothy Roberts talks about this in her book “Killing The Black Body”, where she talks about dramatically different cultural attitudes within the U.S. on adoption, fertility treatments, and how they relate to people’s own conceptions of themselves and their racial status.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  01:33 PM

we are so wed to the patriarchal ideal of a married couple plus baby that we look the other way and refuse to see it

Whoa. While this may be a patriarchal ideal, surely reproductive freedom includes the freedom to reproduce. Don’t take away women’s agency.

Comment #15: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  01:37 PM

Hector B.
Seems like you can make that argument for lots of medical procedures that while not treating life threatening conditions they make life more enjoyable, fertility treatment is different in that society is probably going to have to pick-up a good deal of the costs. (when I wrote the comment I was thinking of Octamom)  I guess my question is where do you draw the line?

Personally I think society has turned children into the ultimate accessory and medcine should stay out of it.

Comment #16: John Rove  on  03/25  at  01:39 PM

I wasn’t saying that, Hector.  Don’t put words in my mouth.  I was saying a reluctance to criticize adoption and fertility industries goes straight up to the belief that even asking questions about ethical behavior is somehow questioning a man’s right to a child (many people have no problem denying single women or lesbians assistance—-gay men, either, but then again, they’re not considered “real” men), and so people fear doing it.  With that level of fear of oversight, of course these industries are going to be rife with corruption.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  01:46 PM

“Seems like you can make that argument for lots of medical procedures that while not treating life threatening conditions they make life more enjoyable, fertility treatment is different in that society is probably going to have to pick-up a good deal of the costs.”

How is society going to have to pick up the costs, exactly?  And what costs are we talking about?  Crazypants multiples are a rarity (Ms. Suleman still hasn’t produced as many as the Duggars), and fertility treatments tend to either not be covered or be poorly covered under insurance plans, so it’s not like “society” is ponying up for that.  After that, the children thus produced aren’t any more or less society’s problem than children produced by any other method.

Comment #18: preying mantis  on  03/25  at  01:50 PM

John, I think “Octomom” (and Jesus, the woman clearly has problems but can we not turn her into a supervillian) is a really extreme example of a woman with mental health issues and an unethical doctors that is not in any way representative of most women who undergo fertility treatments. I don’t know why you think it is for you to decide what medical treatments other people should receive. I have issues with plastic surgery, but it’s not my body, not my decision. And it’s not your decision how people ought to feel about whether or not they have children. Especially given that this is a discussion of women’s reproductive rights.

Comment #19: chingona  on  03/25  at  01:50 PM

Also, what preying mantis said. Also, if fertility treatments were covered by insurance, we’d see more regulation, more compliance with standard of care, and fewer rogue doctors doing rogue procedures. Also, adoption isn’t exactly free of ethical concerns. So ... it’s complicated.

Comment #20: chingona  on  03/25  at  01:51 PM

Amanda, that’s a good acid test: does the fertility industry support the right of women to reproduce when there’s no man in the equation?

Comment #21: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  01:56 PM

I agree that children produced naturally are just as expensive for society as one produced by fertility treatments but that doesn’t change the fact that they are still a cost to society, these kids have to be educated and vaccinated and they produce a carbon foot print.  My point is that we should be looking at ways to reduce the number of children in the world and one of those ways is to end fertility treatment.

Comment #22: John Rove  on  03/25  at  01:56 PM

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  That was my point—-there’s good guys and bad guys, but what shouldn’t surprise us is that there are bad guys.  And that they run rampant, as there’s very little will on behalf of the public to look too closely.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  01:58 PM

Your knee-jerk reaction—-the assumption that looking closer at the baby-getting industry means that I’m all for shutting it down—-is, by the way, exactly why people are afraid to ask the hard questions.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  01:59 PM

Amanda, that’s a good acid test: does the fertility industry support the right of women to reproduce when there’s no man in the equation?

In general, yes. Some individual doctors don’t.

My point is that we should be looking at ways to reduce the number of children in the world and one of those ways is to end fertility treatment.

How about improving contraceptive access for people who don’t want kids and work to reduce social pressure to have children so that people who are ambivalent about having kids don’t? How about a strategy that respects people’s intelligence and agency instead of one that relies on coercion?

Comment #25: chingona  on  03/25  at  02:00 PM

My point is that we should be looking at ways to reduce the number of children in the world and one of those ways is to end fertility treatment.

What happened to the goal of “Two to replace two”? Aren’t the results of fertility treatment likely to be the most treasured children, with parents who will remain involved in their upbringing?

Comment #26: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  02:02 PM

John, making birth control free and easy to get would do a whole lot more.  Fertility treatment created babies are a vanishingly small percentage of babies born worldwide.  All evidence shows that women who are fully empowered to control the size of their families choose to have slightly under two on average—-we could, just by making birth control free and accessible to all women—-start rolling back the numbers of people in a generation to a much more feedable number.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  02:02 PM

Amanda, I encourage scrutiny of every part of our society. I just have not been able to accept that the patriarchy is the ultimate source of all evil in this world. When, for example, a co-worker needs hammertoe surgery after spending a lifetime shoving her feet into shoes that were too small for her, I can’t help thinkng “Which patriarchs told her not to wear Clarks, or Cobbie Cuddlers?”

Comment #28: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  02:17 PM

I agree that birth control should be available and free for anyone who wants it.  Free vasectomies would probably have a thousand fold return on costs.

Fertility treatment is also a problem, at this point one of if not the biggest problem facing the planet is over-population,almost everything that we talk about, climate change, war, poverty, is in some way tied to over-population and adding more children through fertility treatment just adds to the problem.

Comment #29: John Rove  on  03/25  at  02:18 PM

Hector, it’s a little silly to suggest that the patriarchy would have nothing to do with the question of where more babies come from, who is allowed to have them, and who gets to claim them while foisting the work of making/raising them on someone else.  Most anthropologists suggest that the very origins of the patriarchy go back to these questions, and we have undeniable evidence in the abortion debate that control of reproduction is considered issue #1 for patriarchy fans.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  02:21 PM

John, it’s just weird and childish to consider such a minor numerical issue to be a “problem” worth examining.  Unless it goes back, as I’ve said before, to the need to control and dominate reproductive choices.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  02:22 PM

“My point is that we should be looking at ways to reduce the number of children in the world and one of those ways is to end fertility treatment.”

If all you’re shooting for is reducing the number of children in the world, you could burn the candle at both ends and end vaccination, too.

“How about a strategy that respects people’s intelligence and agency instead of one that relies on coercion?”

Respect people’s intelligence and agency?  Pfft.  What are you, some kind of commie pinko leftist who actually wants her initiatives to work instead of flaming out in a grand, self-destructive gesture of ideological purity?

Comment #32: preying mantis  on  03/25  at  02:23 PM

“My point is that we should be looking at ways to reduce the number of children in the world and one of those ways is to end fertility treatment.”

That is awfully convenient.

“We have to fight overpopulation! No more babies!
No more babies at all?
Well, no.
But you infertiles - bad luck!”

Comment #33: _IM_  on  03/25  at  02:25 PM

alara and amanda,
I think the book Alara read is probably the one I read “Liquid Life”

http://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Life-Abortion-Buddhism-Japan/dp/0691029652/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238001722&sr=1-1

by walter LaFleur.  Its a brilliant study of a very complex cultural and historical situation—which, btw, was becoming a pawn in larger patriarchal games and political manipulation even as LaFleur was writing the book. BAsically he demonstrates that the soul, to the extent that Japanese ideas of incarnation and reincarnation can be captured by a word like soul, is thought to inhabit the body at a certain point in time. An abortion simply returns the soul to a state of waiting for another body and another family.  Women, men, and families who decide on an abortion can simply apologize to the given soul, propitiate it and mourn it at the “Jizo” shrines, and get on with their lives secure in the knowledge that somewhere and sometime in the future that soul gets another body and another family. Probably one that is better for it but certainly, given rather complicated ideas about Karma and causality, a “right” one. Christianist theology is really pretty difficult stuff because of its empahsis on a single life time, a single moment to get right with god, and a very peculiar and unexamined problem in the way they think about agency.  In a multi lifetime universe the soul in waiting to be born has some choice and agency, or at any rate some relationship, with the life they eventually get. If you don’t end up with that life its not something that is necessarily done *to*  you as it is something that is necessary to your karmic journey and something even (in some versions) that you are choosing.  The whole christianist emphasis on “innocent” life and on the mother as murderer strikes me as sick not because I don’t love me some babiez but because it just seems part of the generally supine position of christians before their angry god.

aimai

aimai

Comment #34: aimai  on  03/25  at  02:31 PM

Spending time and resources on fertility treatment encourages the myth that children are mystical gift.  Seems like most people agree that we should encourage people to limit family size but heaven forbid anyone should be childless. 

To me that seems like a mixxed message.  Sort of like the whole Bristol Palin thing where people tell teenagers not to get preganant but at the same time tell them that children are a gift.(I know abstinence education doesn’t help on that one)

Even if test tube babies are only a small part of the over-population equation they are sort of like two stroke motorcycle in the seventies, a small part that can be easily fixxed.

Comment #35: John Rove  on  03/25  at  02:34 PM

Ah, John Rove is here to lecture us with the imperative that those of us who aer infertile are so because God wants us to be.

Speaking as someone who may need fertility treatments in a few years because the mate I’ve chosen isn’t an optimal producer of viable sperm (or, as they call it in the medical profession, “man chowder”), may I kindly invite Sir Rove to go fuck a pineapple?

Comment #36: Essie Elephant  on  03/25  at  02:34 PM

“When, for example, a co-worker needs hammertoe surgery after spending a lifetime shoving her feet into shoes that were too small for her, I can’t help thinkng “Which patriarchs told her not to wear Clarks, or Cobbie Cuddlers?””

Which patriarchs deem high heels, with their documented discomfort, health, and safety issues, mandatory office attire?  Which patriarchs still link lesbianism with wearing “comfortable shoes”?  Which patriarchs still frequently precede “hairy-legged, man-hating” with “Birkenstock-wearing”?  Having a big shoe size isn’t the same big honking deal that having a big dress size is wrt normative beauty standards, but your coworker trying not to go above the dreaded Size X in shoe is likely not a stand-alone, 100% self-inflicted choice in the same way that women didn’t band together however many years ago and decide that stiletto heels were now their deal, and nuts to any man who didn’t like it.

Comment #37: preying mantis  on  03/25  at  02:35 PM

“I can’t help thinking ‘Which patriarchs told her not to wear Clarks, or Cobbie Cuddlers?’”

I would guess they number in the hundreds, and include everyone from her mother to boys who turned her down for dates in high school to co-workers (probably female) who snickered over the passerby in Clarks.

Probably most of them were women; doesn’t mean they weren’t enablers of the Patriarchy.

Comment #38: Dr. Psycho  on  03/25  at  02:39 PM

Amanda, I guess my perspective is influenced by the number of women among my family and friends who clearly decided if and when they would have children. The two who needed infertility treatment had not set out to have children till they were in their mid-thirties. So unless the patriarchy implanted a time bomb in these two, I didn’t see its influence.

Comment #39: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  02:41 PM

And…derail achieved thanks to John “I hate inferile people” Rove and Hector “What patriarchy?” B.

So, since we’ve derailed already, I’ll chime in with an anecdata.

Friend of mine got pregnant in high school and didn’t abort because she just felt really ambivalent about the whole thing. Neither, though, did she want it to ruin her life and keep her from college, etc. After she has the baby, she starts looking into adoption, and is apparently told that you can’t give the baby up without the father’s permission - I guess the father has first dibs. Only problem is, the guy is a complete head-case and says, basically, “Give it to me so I can torture it to make you feel bad.” Not such a good place to be in. She ends up keeping the baby, because what else are you going to do?, and, well, I won’t say it ruined her life, but I will say that college didn’t happen.

I always think of him when I see an MRA bleat that it’s not fair that his lady friend got an abortion, when he totally would have been willing to take the baby off her hands. There are worse things than being aborted, ya know?

Comment #40: Essie Elephant  on  03/25  at  02:46 PM

The two who needed infertility treatment had not set out to have children till they were in their mid-thirties. So unless the patriarchy implanted a time bomb in these two, I didn’t see its influence.

I guess you haven’t heard about the direct link between infertility and “silent” STIs like chlamydia, which are easily prevented by condom use, assuming you can get your male partners to agree to wear a condom.  They’ve found that’s where much of the legendary mid-30s infertility springs from.

Any other areas that you want to claim have never been influenced by the patriarchy?  I think we’ve taken care of office dress codes as they apply to shoes and infertility that happens because women don’t have the power to refuse to have sex if their partner doesn’t wear a condom (see also, AIDS rates in Africa).

Comment #41: Mnemosyne  on  03/25  at  02:51 PM

John, women’s bodies and women’s lives are not tools to achieve social goals, no matter how worthy those goals might be. Women’s bodies belong to women to do with what they want.

Comment #42: chingona  on  03/25  at  02:53 PM

I can’t believe this thread. Is this like Feminism 101 or what?

Comment #43: chingona  on  03/25  at  02:54 PM

mnemo, I don’t see the relevance unless you’re asserting that chlamdyia made these women decide to have babies.

Comment #44: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  02:57 PM

“Saletan, I suspect, sympathizes more with the woman who made the embryo than the woman who aborted the pregnancy, because the woman who made the embryo is, to be blunt, in a position that’s closer to what a man could find himself in than a woman.”

Thank you for hitting that nail on the head.  Lord Saletan has abruptly become clearer in his motives to me.

Comment #45: Lisa KS  on  03/25  at  02:59 PM

mnemo, I don’t see the relevance unless you’re asserting that chlamdyia made these women decide to have babies.

Were you not saying that these women in their 30s ran into fertility problems when they decided they wanted to have babies, with the implication that that’s what they get for waiting “too long”?  If so, I find it hard to believe you don’t understand what extremely common STI-induced fertility problems would have to with your friends’ fertility problems.

If not, I have absolutely no idea what your point was, other than that sometimes people decide to have babies at an age you don’t approve of.

Comment #46: Mnemosyne  on  03/25  at  03:02 PM

Hector B, unless the women in question told you that their fertility problem was, specifically, ovarian reserve, their age has nothing to do with it. Yes, you start having ovarian reserve issues the older you get, but it’s not like there’s an expiration date on the ovaries come age 35.

I became infertile at 23 due to PCOS and recurrent pregnancy loss. I have a friend who is my age with PCOS, hypothyroidism, and her husband has motility and count issues. I have another friend who’s also my age whose husband has 0 sperm (azoospermia) due to a botched hernia procedure 4 years ago; essentially the doctors accidentally gave him a vasectomy as they repaired his hernia. I have another friend who’s in her late 20s now who has such severe PCOS that she effectively hit menopause at age 26. And so on and so forth. Infertility effects the young as well.

Oh, and for the record, I have a lesbian friend in her mid-30s who has problems with endometriosis and hypothyroidism which have led to over a year of known-donor inseminations either failing or miscarrying. And since she lives in Florida, she can’t do anonymous donors or adopt.

And John who hates infertiles and has no understanding of the reality fertility or fertility treatment, you do realize that embryonic stem cells come from leftover IVF procedures, right? No IVF, almost no stem cell research.

Amanda, I don’t know how many infertiles you know or infertility blogs you read, but the majority of the infertiles I know lament the lack of regulation and the ethical muckiness of fertility treatment and adoption. I’ve seen friends screwed over by adoption agencies and state foster care stuff, I’ve seen people online wind up with unethical reproductive endocrinologists, hell I’ve seen women get successful with IVF only to have horrific pregnancies and get almost no help from doctors (after several 2nd trimester miscarriages). I think that, in general, the infertile world is talking about these issues, it’s just the blind fertile people who ignore them.

It’s all such a clusterfuck right now, and much of it would be improved by a better sense of compassion for the women going through infertility, miscarriage, and pregnancy in general.

Comment #47: Ashley  on  03/25  at  03:04 PM

Ah. mnemo, my point was that the women I knew who sought fertility treatment did so out of their own individual, personal desire to have a baby. Other women I know who had babies did so out of their own individual, personal desire: they decided to have babies, and went to find men who would cooperate.

Now maybe the dark hand of the Patriarchy was behind all these decisions.

Comment #48: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  03:10 PM

“So unless the patriarchy implanted a time bomb in these two, I didn’t see its influence.”

“mnemo, I don’t see the relevance unless you’re asserting that chlamdyia made these women decide to have babies.”

You don’t automatically wind up infertile in your mid-thirties.  The idea that our ovaries rot and our uteri turn to dust at 35 just as a matter of course is pretty much a myth.  If they were infertile due to non-STI-related issues, they likely would have had trouble conceiving with that partner at 25 or 30 just as they did at 35, so age is a red herring in that case.  If they were infertile due to STI-related issues, that absolutely goes back to sex-ed, condom use, and women’s ability to negotiate safe sex and access a full spectrum of reproductive care during the entirety of their reproductive lives.

Comment #49: preying mantis  on  03/25  at  03:14 PM

Hector, don’t think we haven’t noticed that you blew past the “who makes women wear nasty shoes” comments…

Comment #50: Essie Elephant  on  03/25  at  03:16 PM

pm: I see that now. For whatever physical reason, these women sought infertility treatment. Their motivation was to get pregnant and have a baby.

Comment #51: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  03:17 PM

Sure, I’m horrified at the thought of a woman changing her mind about having the baby at 8 1/2 months, and having an abortion. But I also trust woman, and know the chances of that happening are vanishingly small,

That’s the most important factor.

Comment #52: bananacat  on  03/25  at  03:17 PM

essie: someone chastised me about derailing the topic, so I thought I had better skip over the tyranny of patriarchal footwear expectations.

Comment #53: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  03:19 PM

I think Hector is misreading Amanda a bit, but some of us are misreading Hector on his position on fertility treatments. I think (and correct me if I’m wrong) what he’s trying to say is that even in a post-patriarchy, plenty of people would still want kids and because some people would still need fertility treatments, we would still have fertility treatment in a post-patriarchy. Is that what you were getting at, Hector? If so, I think you were misreading Amanda. She puts a fair amount of credit to patriarchy for the desire to have kids (more than I would, but then, I’m a mother), but I don’t think she thinks we’d voluntarily extinct ourselves in a post-patriarchy.

The bit about the high heels is just dense, though. Sorry.

Comment #54: chingona  on  03/25  at  03:20 PM

chingona, I know, it’s like, once you combine a little bit of science with the baaaayyybeeeez suddenly we’re back to the sensible shoes argument. (For an interesting close reading of one text using the symbolism of sensible shoes, see slacktivist here.) Soon we’re going to have to explain why women go to the bathroom in pairs, gals! Aren’t you glad we can be here to educate?

Comment #55: purpleshoes  on  03/25  at  03:30 PM

chingona, thanks for the insight. At first I thought Amanda was saying that the whole business of seeking fertility treatments was patriarchal. My position really is that women enter the world of fertility treatment for their own reasons. But I can see where the fertility industry could be patriarchal.

And as a patriarch (j.g.) there’s only so much blame I’m prepared to accept. Women, this is one patriarch who wishes you would always wear comfy shoes. (Birks are NOT comfy—the cork footbed transmits every shock right to your knees.)

Comment #56: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  03:31 PM

Hector B, I do appreciate your attempts to tackle John Rove, who has done an excellent job of delivering the “saving the pandas requires public judgment of your uterus!” argument in all its not-actually-proven-by-any-population-research glory.

Comment #57: purpleshoes  on  03/25  at  03:36 PM

(Warning, my comment may post several times. I’d hit blaspheme, and it would say it couldn’t post. So, I tried a bunch, and now I look and it’s posted. No idea what’s going on)

Comment #58: Ashley  on  03/25  at  03:41 PM

women who are fully empowered to control the size of their families choose to have slightly under two on average—-we could, just by making birth control free and accessible to all women—-start rolling back the numbers of people in a generation to a much more feedable number.

Unfortunately, that’s not the case.  There’s a reason why China instituted a one child policy.  Developing countries have many more young people than old, which means that, even just replacement birth rates (one child per adult) will still result in population growth for many generations to come.  It’s still a worthy goal of course, but barring any major catastrophe that wipes out a lot of people, it’s going to take decades before we see our population stabilize, let alone decline.

Comment #59: keshmeshi  on  03/25  at  03:48 PM

Why don’t you wear dresses, Hector? They’re breezy and comfortable on warm days and look quite nice.  And don’t give me any of that crap about patriarchal expectations.  We all know that your choice as a man not to wear skirts, dresses, and makeup (which can be awfully helpful in hiding the odd zit, accentuating sweeping masculine brows and cheekbones, and adding that hint of color) is entirely personal and not due to any societal influences, leaving you free to mock women for frivolously choosing to wear harmful high heels as an entirely free choice that they make out of their own pigheaded vanity.

Comment #60: Gavel Down  on  03/25  at  03:52 PM

And as a patriarch (j.g.) there’s only so much blame I’m prepared to accept. Women, this is one patriarch who wishes you would always wear comfy shoes. (Birks are NOT comfy—the cork footbed transmits every shock right to your knees.)

Posted that last one without seeing this.  Well, certainly ladies should stop listening to the entire rest of society and listen to you personally, otherwise it’s their own damn fault. Acknowledging societal pressure inflicted by both men and women as a function of a hierarchical society dependent in no small part on keeping one half of the population inextricably associated with sex equates to blaming you personally. Geez.  I have a penis and yet manage not to be that dense, why the hell can’t anyone else seem to?

Comment #61: Gavel Down  on  03/25  at  03:56 PM

Why don’t you wear dresses

Men probably could start wearing dresses, considering that, save for formal occasions, women quit wearing dresses in the early 1960s, the same time as they started leaving the house without hats and gloves. We refer to that time as “The Patriarchal Reformation.” It climaxed with the abandonment of the panty girdle, until after a few years of abdominal freedom, the patriarchy mandated pantyhose.

But as a practical matter, while comfortable shoes for women are sold in every mall (and Cobbie Cuddlers in every K-Mart), dresses for men are available only in pricey—and scarce—TV boutiques.

Comment #62: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  04:07 PM

Why don’t you give that a try, and see how it works out for you?  I’ll be right here.

Comment #63: Gavel Down  on  03/25  at  04:10 PM

I’ve quoted from this before, re: birth, surrogacy, costs of bearing and raising a child, but it’s one of my favourites so I’ll quote it again.

A little background first: One of my favourite bits from Lois Bujold’s story, Ethan of Athos. For a little backstory, Ethan is an obstetrician from a planet where only men live, and where all reproduction and birth is made possible through uterine replicators. (The uterine replicators show up in other stories of Bujold’s, and on some planets, make it possible for women to live longer healthier lives.) Ethan has to go off-planet to collect new genetic strains to reinforce their older, senescing strains, and in the process runs afoul of some particularly nasty folks. He is aided along the way by a female mercenary and they have this conversation:

“What kind of genetics project?” he asked suddenly. “Millisor’s thing, I mean. Don’t you know any more about it than that?”

She spared him a thoughtful glance. “Human genetics. And in truth, I know very little more than that. Some names, a few code words. God only knows what they were up to. Making monsters, maybe. Or raising supermen. The Cetagandans have always been a bunch of aggressive militarists. Maybe they meant to raise battalions of mutant super-soldiers in vats like you Athosians and take over the universe or something.”

“Not likely,” remarked Ethan. “Not battalions, anyway.”

“Why not? Why not clone as many as you want, once you’ve made the mold?”

“Oh, certainly, you could produce quantities of infants—although it would take enormous resources to do so. Highly trained techs, as well as equipment and supplies. But don’t you see, that’s just the beginning. It’s nothing, compared to what it takes to raise a child. Why, on Athos it absorbs most of the planet’s economic resources. Food of course—housing— education, clothing, medical care—it takes nearly all our efforts just to maintain population replacement, let alone to increase. No government could possibly afford to raise such a specialized, non-productive army.”

Elli Quinn quirked an eyebrow. “How odd. On other worlds, people seem to come in floods, and they’re not necessarily impoverished, either.”

Ethan, diverted, said “Really? I don’t see how that can be. Why, the labor costs alone of bringing a child to maturity are astronomical. There must be something wrong with your accounting.”

Her eyes screwed up in an expression of sudden ironic insight. “Ah, but on other worlds the labor costs aren’t added in. They’re counted as free.”

Ethan stared. “What an absurd bit of double thinking! Athosians would never sit still for such a hidden labor tax! Don’t the primary nurturers even get social duty credits?”

“I believe,” her voice was edged with a peculiar dryness, “they call it women’s work.”

Comment #64: PixelFish  on  03/25  at  04:14 PM

women who are fully empowered to control the size of their families choose to have slightly under two on average—-we could, just by making birth control free and accessible to all women—-start rolling back the numbers of people in a generation to a much more feedable number.

Unfortunately, that’s not the case.  There’s a reason why China instituted a one child policy.  Developing countries have many more young people than old, which means that, even just replacement birth rates (one child per adult) will still result in population growth for many generations to come.  It’s still a worthy goal of course, but barring any major catastrophe that wipes out a lot of people, it’s going to take decades before we see our population stabilize, let alone decline.

keshmeshi, I think you’re missing the “fully empowered” part here. I’ve lived in developing countries in with extremely patriarchal (more blatant than ours) social structures in a capacity where I got a lot of opportunities to talk to women about their child-bearing and -spacing desires. Family size will and does come down when more children survive childhood and when more women have opportunities to educate themselves or educate their children. With China, they had an extreme situation in which social change may well not have occurred fast enough. India, without a one-child policy, faces a similarly extreme situation in terms of resources vs. population growth. (Which is not to wholeheartedly endorse China’s one-child policy, but to say I can understand the justification for it, as much as the way it has been implemented troubles me deeply.) But speaking generally, most women who want children and live in places where they can 1) expect their children to survive, 2) expect to educate their children and 3) expect to have their partner listen to and respect their desires on contraception ... want between one and three kids, with the average being slightly less than 2 and have that many kids. In countries with less pre-existing population pressure than India or China, that would be perfectly adequate to stabilize world population.

Comment #65: chingona  on  03/25  at  04:33 PM

Developing countries have many more young people than old, which means that, even just replacement birth rates (one child per adult) will still result in population growth for many generations to come.

Since China was still a primarily agricultural country until very recently, it’s no surprise that people were still having children beyond what the country could afford since they needed labor to work the land.  But I think you’re seriously overestimating how much choice Chinese women had in making the decision to have a large family, especially in rural areas. 

You’re also greatly underestimating the child mortality rate in developing countries.  If you know the chances of your child surviving to adulthood are 50/50 or worse, why in the world would you put all of your eggs in one basket and restrict yourself to a single child who could very well die before his/her 18th birthday?

People in developing countries aren’t churning out kids because they don’t know any better.  They have extremely rational reasons for doing so, and ignoring those reasons means you’re never going to be able to come up with the kind of policies that will actually help slow population growth.

Comment #66: Mnemosyne  on  03/25  at  04:41 PM

People in developing countries aren’t churning out kids because they don’t know any better.  They have extremely rational reasons for doing so, and ignoring those reasons means you’re never going to be able to come up with the kind of policies that will actually help slow population growth.

And this. This.

Comment #67: chingona  on  03/25  at  04:46 PM

Hector, the notion that any random woman can be considered completely uninfluenced by the patriarchy is weird.  But I never, ever, not once said that people who want children are bad people.  I’m just pointing out that the taboo over even questioning the industry is patriarchal, and that is why corruption runs rampant.  Should I repeat it again, or do you get it?

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  05:05 PM

Amanda, I don’t know how many infertiles you know or infertility blogs you read, but the majority of the infertiles I know lament the lack of regulation and the ethical muckiness of fertility treatment and adoption.

I’m aware of this But sadly, it has almost no influence on the mainstream discourse on this subject, where infertility clinics and especially adoption agencies are considered above reproach.

Comment #69: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  05:24 PM

There’s a reason why China instituted a one child policy. 

Not quite accurate.  China instituted the one-child policy because the Chinese government falsely believed you cannot encourage a behavior without mandating it.  In fact, many demographers point to voluntary childlessness as a major factor in Chinese population growth slowdown.  The notion that women, on average, volunteer to be pregnant a lot isn’t backed up by research.  A few, maybe, but that’s offset by those who’d go without altogether.  Michelle Goldberg talks about this some in her book.  Population growth is an environmental issue, yes, but we’re lucky enough that voluntary participation in reduction is possible and even the most likely to work method.

Comment #70: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  05:33 PM

Of course, when I say they are considered above reproach, I should have noted that ended the second a single, non-white woman had 8 babies at once.  Had she been a married white woman with bizarre religious beliefs, however, there would be no questioning of the ethics of the situation

This has nothing to do with the patriarchy, which I’ve been assured by Hector is not a system or a form of social organization, but is apparently his opinion on shoes.

Comment #71: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  05:39 PM

There are a lot of conservative religious types, though, who oppose fertility treatments unless every embryo is used, or just oppose it, period, as playing God. I don’t think it’s that it’s beyond reproach, but that support and opposition break down in kind of weird ways that aren’t related to what you or I might think are the more significant moral or ethical issues.

Comment #72: chingona  on  03/25  at  05:59 PM

You’re right, but I think the religious rights’ “no dick, no deal” approach to reproduction shows exactly how beyond reproach the clinics are.  (The religious right loves all manifestations of adoption agencies, and I have no doubt they’d like a return to ripping babies away from screaming teenage girls.)  Rarely do you get legislators being so impolitic as to try to ban IVF.  They keep their opposition to it mostly to themselves.  They instead try to ban it by using anti-abortion measures—-trying to define fertilized eggs as people, implying that stem cells come from abortion, etc.  Because they’re aware that pushing against infertile married couples’ right to have a child is never, ever going to fly.

Comment #73: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  06:17 PM

I do think married couples have a right to try and use whatever means they want.  It’s worth wondering if the anti-choice movement also hates IVF because they see it as draining potential anti-choice converts from them?  They deftly exploit would-be adopters, using their emotional vulnerability to turn them on women who abort.  (Many adoption agencies require you to sign something saying you support a ban on abortion and will raise a child to be anti-choice.)  If people use fertility treatments to have children, they have less motivation to sign up for coercive measures to get children to adopt.

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/25  at  06:19 PM

Amanda, I think we’re good now.

Comment #75: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  06:19 PM

I do think married couples have a right to try and use whatever means they want.  It’s worth wondering if the anti-choice movement also hates IVF because they see it as draining potential anti-choice converts from them?

Fascinating. And, of course, in an ideal world where fertility treatments are 100% effective and affordable, we don’t “need” women-who-might-otherwise-abort to carry the baby to term and give it up for the good of society. Fertility treatments yank that guilt trip (“How can you abort your unwanted baby? So many women would DIE to have a baby!!”) right off the table.

Amanda, sometimes I think you’d make a scary-good fundie. Joking. smile

Comment #76: Essie Elephant  on  03/25  at  06:24 PM

The fertility industry seems to reinforce the notion that a persons life is meaningless unless they reproduce, while I can understand some couples being unhappy that they cannot have kids, how much of that unhappiness stems from people being told that they have to reproduce.

Comment #77: John Rove  on  03/25  at  06:25 PM

“It’s worth wondering if the anti-choice movement also hates IVF because they see it as draining potential anti-choice converts from them?”

The anti-choicers are a little patchy on their opposition to IVF and other fertility treatments, I think.  So many of the crazies around here are so pro-fertility, however it happens, that it really shocked me to find out that the Catholics are so down on it.  I mean, it doesn’t get much more motherhood-as-martyrdom than being willing to go through the wringer in so many different ways just to have a shot at fulfilling your womanly duty.  It wasn’t “God just doesn’t want you to have kids,” it was “God will surely give you children if you just clear enough of these obstacles and make a great enough leap of faith.”

They also helped stifle any “I just don’t feel called to be a mother” sentiments from younger women in the congregation in much the same way the “Your uterus will fall out at 35 and then you’ll be sorry” stories are used to spook women on the career track or “There are children starving in Africa” was meant to get you to clean your plate.  Adoption wasn’t really high-profile for those folks, and the One True Narrative generally ended with the knocked-up slut realizing that she really did love her baby and deciding that she’d go through whatever hard-life-as-penance it took to be a good mom.  God forbid any woman be able to ditch the millstone around her uterus so easily. 

And really, so long as fertility treatments remain expensive, difficult, and time-consuming, they pose little in the way of a real threat to the anti-choice movement.  It’s out of reach for too many couples, and a lot of the ones who can get it credit its success as a real, non-figurative miracle anyway.

Comment #78: preying mantis  on  03/25  at  06:52 PM

John Rove, seriously, STFU. 

The vast majority of people undergoing fertility treatment are not doing it because of social pressure. It is far too emotionally and financially taxing, but in many cases easier than going the adoption or surrogacy route. Several of my friends have been struggling with infertility and it is no picnic. The only reason they do it is because they want a child and feel THEIR life would be incomplete without children. Children are a gift for those of us who want them, which is why we don’t want somebody else deciding when or how we become parents no matter the justification.  Give women the tools to manage our own reproduction and it’s funny how the social pressure to have babies lessens.

I understand that not everyone feels the same imperative to reproduce and that there needs to be more social approval for adults living their life child-free, but for some of us, absent social pressure we would still consider our lives the poorer for not being parents. But even with social pressure removed, the majority of women will still decide to become parents and it is offensive to suggest that this urge to reproduce is purely about social pressure that makes us think our lives would be incomplete.  I shouldn’t have to prove to some asshole on the Internet that my desire for fertility treatments isn’t driven by a social pathology but an “authentic” desire to be a mother.

Comment #79: history_mom  on  03/25  at  06:57 PM

The fertility industry seems to reinforce the notion that a persons life is meaningless unless they reproduce, while I can understand some couples being unhappy that they cannot have kids, how much of that unhappiness stems from people being told that they have to reproduce.

I think you have your cause and effect backwards. The fertility industry exists because people want children. You might think they want them for the wrong reasons, but they want them nonetheless. The fertility industry doesn’t make people want to have kids. If anything, if that’s what everyone needed to have a child, a lot fewer people would bother. From what I have seen, it is no walk in the park.

Comment #80: chingona  on  03/25  at  07:08 PM

It’s out of reach for too many couples, and a lot of the ones who can get it credit its success as a real, non-figurative miracle anyway.

I think part of this is because any two couples can spend the same amount of money and undergo the same procedures, and one will end up with a baby and the other won’t. There’s a lot they still don’t understand, can’t predict, can’t control, etc.

Comment #81: chingona  on  03/25  at  07:10 PM

The Japanese attitude toward abortion is complicated.  Amanda is right: abortion is very common in Japan.  It’s difficult to get reliable numbers, but it’s estimated that perhaps half of Japanese women have had at least one abortion by their mid-twenties; many have had several.  The Pill wasn’t legalized until recently and is still viewed with distrust.  Health professionals in Japan spent decades spreading false scare stories about the Pill: that it’s very dangerous to women’s health, that it causes permanent infertility.  To this day, few Japanese women use hormonal birth control.  Also, a lot of young women don’t feel able to demand that their partners use condoms, and with AIDS still uncommon in Japan, a lot of young men don’t see a strong reason to use them.  So abortion has become a common method of birth control.

There is a religious objection to abortion, but it’s relatively slight; it basically comes down to the popular belief that aborted, miscarried, and stillborn fetuses have trouble getting back on the wheel of reincarnation.  As someone above mentioned, women often place statues of Jizo, a bodhisattva regarded as a patron of children, in cemeteries to commemorate an aborted fetus.  Jizo is supposed to guide the fetus’s soul in the afterlife.  Beyond that, neither Buddhism nor Shinto has a strong tradition against abortion.

And yet I’ve seen Japanese anti-abortion arguments that are indistinguishable from the arguments made by Christian right-to-lifers in the U.S.  It’s not really a religious issue; religion is just the front put up by anti-choice people in the U.S. because it’s simpler and sounds nicer than their actual objections.

Comment #82: Shaenon  on  03/25  at  07:11 PM

“The fertility industry seems to reinforce the notion that a persons life is meaningless unless they reproduce, while I can understand some couples being unhappy that they cannot have kids, how much of that unhappiness stems from people being told that they have to reproduce.”

I find this particularly laughable considering the fertility industry pretty much doesn’t advertise. I have never seen a billboard for a reproductive endocrinologist, have never gotten a flyer telling me about a shiny new IVF technique, and have certainly never seen a tv commercial for, say, Clomid.

The great thing about infertility is that it really sucks. Anyone who’s even remotely ambivalent about wanting children is not going to be willing to jump through all the hoops needed to do even the most minor fertility treatment (usually several blood tests, transvaginal ultrasound, and a semen analysis, and then you get to time sex, chart your temperature, and deal with side effects of drugs). The amazingly vast majority of people undergoing fertility treatment are doing it because they REALLY want kids.

I’ve seen this in my own family. I was a planned pregnancy, but pretty much a whim, and they conceived me on, literally, the first try. Had it taken even 3 months, I’d probably not exist because my parents didn’t really want kids. I, on the other hand, spent 2 years trying, endured 3 miscarriages, had 42 blood tests, one plain old TV ultrasound and one incredibly traumatic sonohystogram, and was about to start Clomid before I conceived naturally. If I wasn’t absolutely certain that I wanted to be a mother, if my husband wasn’t absolutely certain he wanted to be a father, I would have just said ‘fuck it’ and gone to grad school and moved on with my life. But, that’s not who I am, and I know many like me.

Ah, the joys of human variety.

Comment #83: Ashley  on  03/25  at  07:40 PM

“I think part of this is because any two couples can spend the same amount of money and undergo the same procedures, and one will end up with a baby and the other won’t. There’s a lot they still don’t understand, can’t predict, can’t control, etc.”

That’s not even getting into things like miscarriage, stillbirth, birth complications, complications from IVF itself, etc. etc.

And, for the record, to beat out the “why not just adopt” crowd (surprised they haven’t shown up), on average 3 rounds of IVF will cost you <$30,000 and get you a living kid within 15 months (statistics show that most people will be successful in their first 3 IVFs), whereas one adoption can cost that much or more, often takes 2 years or more, and has MUCH more paperwork and hoops to jump through.

Comment #84: Ashley  on  03/25  at  07:45 PM

And, for the record, to beat out the “why not just adopt” crowd (surprised they haven’t shown up)

Tell me about it. Especially given that the basis of the objection was overpopulation. The thing that really frustrates me, though, about the “why not just adopt” crowd is that they act like ART is fraught with all these terrible ethical dilemmas but adoption is totally clean and pure and good. I’m not anti-adoption. I’m more pro-adoption that many people I know, and I have a lot of adopted relatives, so without adoption, I’d be missing a good chunk of my family. But it carries its own ethical dilemmas and trade-offs, and those who think it doesn’t are buying into, whether they realize it or not, that whole idea of “saving” unwanted children, which is a really pernicious idea when you’re talking about the decision to become a parent.

Comment #85: chingona  on  03/25  at  07:52 PM

I just love the way Saletan agonizes over these “moral dilemmas.” He’s not nearly as pro-choice as he thinks, non?

Comment #86: daphne  on  03/25  at  07:58 PM

I can relate to the issues brought up regarding adoption. The sister of a friend of mine is currently in the process of adopting a kid from Kazakhstan. Other friends adopted little girls from China, and, 20 years ago, from Korea. These cost ocnsiderably in terms of time and money, not to mention the moral dilemma of uprooting children from their homelands and families.

And there’s more reasons to adopt than infertility. Another friend’s wife carries a genetic trait that at the time assured that reproduction would be a recipe for tragedy. Gay men cannot reproduce without third-party assistance.

The “cleanest” adoption I know of was in my wife’s family, where children whose parents were killed in a car wreck were adopted by a childless aunt and uncle.

Comment #87: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  08:38 PM

Not only do reputable fertility clinics not push the idea that people are incomplete without offspring, they do psych interviews and questionnaires before agreeing to take someone as a patient to weed out exactly those kinds of people.


Meanwhile, I think that this isn’t quite right:

There are a lot of conservative religious types, though, who oppose fertility treatments unless every embryo is used, or just oppose it, period, as playing God. I don’t think it’s that it’s beyond reproach, but that support and opposition break down in kind of weird ways that aren’t related to what you or I might think are the more significant moral or ethical issues.

The religious types typically oppose IVF, where the decision about which embryos to transfer is made by the doctors and/or patients, but many of them seem to be fine with drugs that induce superovulation, producing multiple eggs many of which will neither fertilize nor, if fertilized implant, nor if implanted survive to term. (And when those odds come down boxcars instead, you make the national news and get a year’s free diapers…)

Comment #88: paul  on  03/25  at  08:50 PM

Even the Catholics? I thought opposed all ART.

Comment #89: chingona  on  03/25  at  08:59 PM

I’m not sure. Catholic doctrine opposes non-PiV ART, but if you want to have sex when a sane reproductive endocrinologist would tell you not too, I don’t know.

Comment #90: paul  on  03/25  at  09:29 PM

Amanda: I didn’t know that about the adoption agencies. (I tried googling, but of course got a big morass of weird anti-choice propaganda, but was curious if you have a citation. I don’t doubt you but I find it interesting and want to look into it further.)

Comment #91: PixelFish  on  03/25  at  09:32 PM

Personally, I consider the social beliefs that women don’t have a right to abort (or use contraception) if they damn well please to be nearly as big an issue as legal access, because the authority that parents, boyfriend, churches, husbands, and other people have over a woman’s life can feel and therefore be as real as the government’s authority.

Absolutely social pressures are as big, or bigger, than legal issues.  The law is faceless, formless, etc.  Family, boyfriends, husbands, churches, etc. can make a woman’s life absolutely fucking miserable to her face under the guise of “concern” or “love.”

*Not that all birth mothers feel this way, of course.  But there’s a reason that most women who are “supposed” to give babies up for adoption don’t, and there’s a reason that they had to tie pregnant girls to tables, force them to deliver, and take the baby away before the mother even saw it in the 50s and 60s.

I got pregnant at age 16 in 1976 and gave birth at 17 right after I graduated early from high school.  Considered abortion and for the life of me, since I’ve had 2 since then, cannot remember why I didn’t do it, which I could have.  So…I spend the entire pregnancy determined and planning to put the baby up for adoption.  Well, baby is born and I can’t do it.  I figure - what the hell - I can be a mom.  I had supportive parents, was on my way to university, had a sizeable trust fund to back me up, blah blah blah.

Two years into being a mother, I realize there is no way I can have any kind of life and be a mother at 19 and give my daughter a life at least as good as the one I had grown up with.  I put her up for adoption when she was 2 years old.  THE most difficult thing I’ve ever done.  Also the most right thing I’ve ever done. She was adopted immediately into a wonderful home and had the life I wanted her to have.

It absolutely burns me to the core when forced-birthers blithely talk about carrying a baby for 9 months and just walk away from it the minute it’s born.  It doesn’t work like that.  Damn right there was a reason women were tied to tables and not allowed to see the baby.

It may sound odd, but I wish there was more, or ANY, support for women who are miserable, unhappy too-young mothers to let their child go for adoption if they are still quite young and minimal emotional rippage for the child would be involved.  It wasn’t easy.  It appalled a lot of people.  It pissed a lot of people off.  I cried every night for a year.  But it can be done.  I’ve met her, talked to her parents numerous times on the phone and she had everything she should have had and more.  Things she was not going to get from me; not for lack of love by any means.  Just lack of age and the inherent instability of being 17, 18, 19, etc.

Comment #92: kac90b  on  03/25  at  10:13 PM

When we adopted we were never asked/told we had to be pro-life.  We never heard anyone mention it either.  Yes, adoption isn’t a cure-all nor is it a pure ethic-free undertaking.  Yet not even birth is ethic-free, as someone could be raped, forced to give birth, have no access to birth control, etc.  But I don’t think it’s right that it sometimes seems OK to say “welp you’re infertile, no kids for you” but then defend any woman’s right to have a kid even if she’s a whack job.  I would march on Washington to support womens’ reproductive rights, but why is it I’m a horrible person to some for wanting a child of my own*?

*A child who is truly an orphan or willingly given away

Comment #93: Vail  on  03/25  at  10:45 PM

Vail, what agency did you use? Domestic or International?

This is true of both Bethany Christian and Catholic Charities, the two largest adoption agencies in the country.

I was very strongly considering adoption and many agencies wouldn’t deal with me because I’m a pagan. I settled on either a local one or Lifetime Adoptions, which is a facilitator and not an agency. And just so happens to demand the money up front and asks how much more you’re willing to pay in the first interview.

Comment #94: Ashley  on  03/25  at  10:55 PM

I could write a whole book on sex and birth control in Japan.  But I’ll stick to a few things:

Condom use is not very popular.  The rates of AIDS in Japan are skyrocketing.  Mostly this is among homosexuals, but I think this is only because most heterosexuals aren’t getting tested.  Cheating is commonplace, and some men enjoy “sex tours” in southeast Asia, so I would not be surprised if a lot of unsuspecting housewives were being infected with HIV with no reason to suspect it.  (Also, there’s still the view of AIDS as a “foreigners disease.”  That’s a whole other bag of fish.)

Women don’t like the pill because they think it’ll make them fat.  It’s also not covered by NHI, so that’s about $20 out of pocket at least, every month, as well as the fact that some clinics make you come back every month to get the next pack.  But it’s easy to get (just an FYI to any women who want to come to Japan—I’m always having to correct the misinformation that the pill doesn’t exist here), especially if you know exactly what formula you want. 

Abortions are mostly for financial reasons and require the permission of the father.  Also, because cheating is rampant and condom and pill use low, I would guess some abortions are also the result of “whoops, I knocked up my mistress.”  The cheapest abortions are about $1000.  Also not covered by NHI.  (Neither is pregnancy unless something goes wrong.)  Morality doesn’t really enter into it.  It’s just, “Can we afford a baby?  No?  Abortion.”  Likewise, teen pregnancy is unheard of—according to Unicef, Japan has the lowest teen pregnancy rate in the world.  Probably because abortion is “whatever.” 

Adoption here is ... hahahahahahahahahahaha.  People don’t really adopt in Japan, so kids sit in orphanages forever.  There is a lot of issue with blood relation and family registers and adoption doesn’t jive with that.  Which is sad, but ... well, that’s just culture.  Like the cheating, the sexless marriages, lack of condoms, aversion to the pill, unwillingness of the government to pay for anything to do with reproduction ... it’s all culture.  Crappy.  But culture.  Hopefully someday something will change but ... well, I hope that happens before North Korea bombs us to shit.

Comment #95: BonAppetit  on  03/26  at  01:22 AM

Just to return the thread to its inital place, let me see if I have understood this correctly:

Saletan thinks that a woman who desperately wants a child should consider carrying someone else’s child, that was effectlvely forced on her, and then should give it away?! 

At first, I thought he said that she should keep it herself, and I thought that was bad enough, but no - she should carry it and then give it away.

He needs to shut the hell up before someone who has had fertility issues (which he clearly hasn’t) punches him.

Comment #96: Katherine  on  03/26  at  06:20 AM

While I don’t disagree with your conclusions, I have to take issue with some sloppy rhetoric.

Abortion was legalized in Japan in 1948, but the pill was only legalized in 1999.  It’s still not popular (condoms are favored), and the Japanese birth rate is really low, so the only conclusion is that they use abortion…..a lot.

That is absolutely not the only conclusion that can be drawn from those premises. It’s equally plausible, for example, that the Japanese don’t have very much sex, a conclusion that would be supported by the interminable working hours of salarymen.

Comment #97: DanaDanger  on  03/26  at  10:04 AM

This guy blows chunks.

Also, the people not paying the surrogates, that’s infuriating. 

When I was in college, I donated eggs three times to pay part of my tuition.  The second time I did it, they negotiated me down from 10k to 9k, because the couple “couldn’t afford it”.  It was so cowardly, it felt so unfair!!!  They weren’t getting a discount from the labs, the doctors, the lawyers, all the people who were making real money and were not putting their health on the line for it and could easily stop the process and turn them down if not paid.  Instead, they were bullying the weakest person in the chain.  The young woman who needs 9k just as much as she needs 10k.

Comment #98: raspberryjamba  on  03/26  at  12:33 PM

DanaDanger, have you ever met a human before?

Comment #99: Essie Elephant  on  03/26  at  12:39 PM

That is absolutely not the only conclusion that can be drawn from those premises. It’s equally plausible, for example, that the Japanese don’t have very much sex, a conclusion that would be supported by the interminable working hours of salarymen.

Your assumption, DanaDanger, is that the wives of Japanese salarymen have no choice but to have sex only with their husbands.  On what grounds are you making this assumption?

Comment #100: bekabot  on  03/26  at  01:48 PM

Ashley we used Lutheran Social Services.  They did ask for some money upfront for the home study etc. but before the process started they gave us a cost list and when each chunk of money was due.  If we could afford to adopt again we would probably go through Holt, though their Mongolia program may end soon (the adoption part, they’re still doing the charity part).  I know there are some good agencies out there that are run by parents that have adopted, not church sponsored.  An agency like that might be a better fit for you.  You might want to check out some yahoo groups, for example if you are adopting from a certain country there might be a group out there you can join and get some recommendations for agencies (i know that my group at least bans people who work for agencies, it’s just for hopeful parents so the advice would be less biased).

Comment #101: Vail  on  03/26  at  03:58 PM

Your assumption, DanaDanger, is that the wives of Japanese salarymen have no choice but to have sex only with their husbands.  On what grounds are you making this assumption?

Fair enough. That still doesn’t *necessarily* mean that Japan’s low birth rate can be chalked up to lots of abortions. I was only saying that you can’t draw the birth rate/abortion conclusion from the premises in the article without more information.

Comment #102: DanaDanger  on  03/27  at  12:07 PM
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