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Next entry: The Broad Swipe Of Censorship Previous entry: Vatican defends excommunication of mom of 9-year-old rape victim

Lord Saletan promotes the finger-wagging band-aid solution

I sat and watched this video with my jaw open in astonishment. It’s so unnerving.  I’m covering one aspect of it for next week’s podcast—-mainly going over the problem of having three men discuss women’s rights as if women were not involved at all—-but I want to blog some more about this, because it pissed me off so much.  Ken Blackwell has nothing at all to add to this, of course.  He just screams about how he and his are going to pray away female sexuality, and it’s just a matter of time.  It’s mildly useful that Blackwell openly admits and downright brags about how he and his are basically against women having sex and that the only form of birth control they’ll tolerate is the pill you hold between your knees.  But mostly he shuts down any discussion.  Matthews going out of his way to “respect” Blackwell’s seething misogyny made this feminist despair of ever getting anywhere in the mainstream media.

Blackwell’s argument against the existence of non-procreative sexual intercourse is actually kind of funny, though.  He comes right out and says we should abstain as a way to differentiate ourselves from other animals.  In my experience, however, wearing clothes, speaking, and walking upright tend to be enough to signal to other humans that I am not a lemur or a newt.

Not that Matthews or Saletan says anything illuminating.  Frances Kissling is defending Saletan today on RH Reality Check,, and while I think her point about approaching women where they’re at on a moral level in the clinic is well-considered, I have major, major issues with what Saletan is saying here.  She references meetings he’s had with abortion counselors who, understandably, shy away from giving women condescending lectures about their moral obligation to use condoms from here on out.  Saletan’s big on the value of moralizing and lecturing women, and he thinks this will create common ground with conservatives, who feel like women who have sex should be punished somehow.  Mandatory childbirth is ideal, but perhaps a condescending, boring lecture that you’ll tune out while wishing you could just go home now and take some aspirin will do?  What if we throw in law forbidding women to take painkillers, so they have to feel bad about being slutty slut sluts?

Saletan does mean well when he talks about contraception, I think, but he just can’t release the hope that the misogynist punishment regime would be satisfied with halfway punishments.  Saletan’s instigating factoid is that the small minority of sexually active straight women who don’t use any form of contraception account for half of abortions (and women who use it sporadically probably almost all of the other half), and with this he and Chris Matthews basically come right out and say that the only reasons could be that such women are stupid and irresponsible.  As I say in the comments of Frances’ post, though, that such women get abortions shows that they are not the irresponsible “couldn’t be bothered” hussies that they’re made out to be by these three men—-getting an abortion is taking responsibility.  Truly irresponsible women of the sort they’re imagining are the ones who can’t get it together to get the abortion and end up being in someone’s child protective services case file.


It’s a small minority of women who don’t use or barely use contraception that get most abortions, yes.  If we could get them to use contraception, that would significantly reduce the abortion rate, which pleases fence sitters and helps expose that “pro-lifers” are not really interested in reducing the abortion rate per se, but are mostly interested in using female fecundity as a way to oppress and punish women.  Abortion reduction is also a worthy goal because abortions suck—-they are painful, expensive, you can’t have sex for two weeks, and often you go into a crisis mode where you have reanalyze your relationship, etc.  Also, dating is hard afterwards, because a lot of dudes are technically pro-choice, but still so attached to the idea of Sperm Magic that abortion makes them uneasy, and they wish that women were all upset at their rejection of the masculine life force for reasons of convenience.  But I think that moralizing lectures about responsibility is a go-nowhere proposition that’s main appeal is that it seems to punish women for their sexual choices that harm no one else.

A couple of weeks ago, I saw Heather Corinna lecture about her very successful model of sex education, and the one thing that jumped out at me is that good sex education is mostly about letting the student lead the process.  Which is to say, the student defines her needs, and the educator seeks to fill them.  (It’s the Montessori method.)  It’s a lot more effective because students have more understanding of both what they don’t know and what they want to know and therefore will listen to.  That’s why Scarleteen is built off questions sent in by teenagers, and not an adult’s idea of what you need to know.  It’s proof positive that the method works, because that’s the best sex education website out there for teenagers, bar none. 

Taking Heather’s principles into consideration, I have to say that Saletan has this ass backwards.  If we want women who aren’t using contraception to get better at it, instead of delivering moral lectures about responsibility, we need to ask them why they aren’t using contraception and listen to their answers.  If we know why, then we’ll have a better idea of how to change the problem.  It’s a question that doesn’t get asked much in the U.S., and I suspect it’s in part because we don’t want to hear the answers.  Saletan denies that it’s an access issue because there’s so many condoms, but the Guttmacher (where he gets his numbers) disagrees in part, demonstrating that inconsistent birth control is linked to poverty and continuous access issues.  I have an interview up this week with Rachel Gold of Guttmacher about how women who should get assistance with contraception are falling through the cracks.  But honestly, stories I’ve heard from abortion counselors and clinic workers inclines me to believe that a major reason a lot of women don’t use contraception is that they don’t feel empowered to do so. 

It shouldn’t be surprising.  Our culture sends a very mixed message about sex with men to women, and the only consistent thread is that women don’t deserve shit.  We’re considered naughty and soiled if we do have sex, but prudish and withholding if we don’t.  Plus, sex is necessary to keep a man, and having a man is mandatory, because there’s something wrong with a single woman.  For many women, economic dependence on men adds to their problems.  Because men hear the same messages, many of them both feel entitled to sex, but also look down on women who have sex with them.  This isn’t experienced by such men as inconsistent, because it just shows to them that sex is one of the many ways that their superiority is reinforced.  Indeed, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that a lot of women hear from their own partners both messages about how you have to do it, but you’re a slut if you do.

It’s well understood that people who feel like they’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t tend to slide into very passive behavior, and for many women how are just getting it from all sides, working up the will to take contraception may seem nearly impossible, and only an event like an unintended pregnancy will spur them to action.  If you rely on condoms as your main form of birth control, that means using contraception is about negotiating with someone who has more power than you every time you do it, and for men who don’t understand how hard this can be for some women, imagine if you had to criticize your boss every time you saw him.  It would be easier just to let it slide a lot of the time, wouldn’t it?  Not every woman is lucky enough to have a sex partner who grabs the condom without question.  It’s been my experience that even men you’d never suspect will avoid the subject until you bring it up, and even then, some whine about it.  You have to have a lot of moxie to push back against this all the time, and I’ve been fortunate to get the sort of social support required to have it, but not every woman has that privilege.  If the condom rejector is someone you’re in a long-term relationship with, then it can be treated, in my opinion, as a form of emotional abuse and should be understood within that model, with all the understanding we have for how hard it is for women to separate themselves from abusers.

But we won’t be able to get this level of understanding to tackle the issue by lecturing and berating women.  Assuming, as Saletan does, that multiple abortions is evidence of irresponsibility is in and of itself irresponsible.  We need to know more about the reasons, and maybe if we find out, as I suspect, that multiple abortions are often due to domestic violence, poverty, or mental health issues, we can respond in ways that are more effective and compassionate.

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:52 PM • (66) Comments

He comes right out and says we should abstain as a way to differentiate ourselves from other animals.

I can’t think of a better example of starting at a conclusion and then coming up with a rationalization to justify it. You know what else sets us apart from animals? Medicine like birth control! Technology like condoms! Abortion sets us apart, too; we could just eat our babies to control our population, like animals do.

the idea of Sperm Magic

After hearing this phrase, my boyfriend feels there should be a product on the market called SpermWow. “It’ll make you say wow, every time!” “You’re gonna love my sperm!”

Comment #1: Lauren O  on  03/09  at  10:11 PM

In my experience, however, wearing clothes, speaking, and walking upright tend to be enough to signal to other humans that I am not a lemur or a newt.

Well, to be fair, most people aren’t doing any of those things while they’re having sex.

Comment #2: Karalora  on  03/09  at  10:15 PM

I was watching that segment when it was aired and it just boggles my mind how somehow none of these talking heads and none of their producers get it at all.  It should strike them all as VERY WRONG to sit around as a bunch of men and negotiate over exactly how much freedom they are gonna give the silly little ladies.

And lots of them I bet would identify as liberals and maybe feminists!  But they don’t get that if you really think women are people just like penis-owners are people you would not sit around and talk about laws that specifically and only affect women without including EVEN ONE TOKEN WOMAN!

I don’t understand how some supposedly liberal men like Matthews don’t die from the overload of cognitive dissonance.

Comment #3: GumbyAnne  on  03/09  at  10:28 PM

Slightly off-topic, but “dating is hard afterwards” seems like a rather silly reason why abortions suck.  Why would you have to tell someone that you date later about an abortion you had earlier?  Unless you had some kind of major complication which affected your fertility and this new partner wants to procreate, your medical history isn’t anyone else’s business.  Having an abortion is nothing to be ashamed of, bragged about or “confessed”. 

Otherwise, I agree with your position wholeheartedly, Amanda.  Preventing a surgical procedure by taking precautions is preferable - cheaper, safer, less painful, and a whole easier.

Comment #4: BadKitty  on  03/09  at  10:29 PM

I don’t understand why we have to worry about differentiating ourselves from animals.  We are animals and all animals are pretty damn different from each other already.  I guess Blackwell is just another self-hating mammal.

Comment #5: semi_factual  on  03/09  at  10:37 PM

“blockquote>(having) multiple abortions is evidence of irresponsibility is in and of itself irresponsible.  We need to know more about the reasons, and maybe if we find out, as I suspect, that multiple abortions are often due to domestic violence, poverty, or mental health issues, we can respond in ways that are more effective and compassionate. </blockquote>
I worked in a clinic for a few years and my experience is that the women we saw for multiple abortions had a whole lot of issues going on in their lives and having repeated abortions was the least of their problems.  Many aspects of their lives were out of their control and having an abortion - whenever necessary - was a whole lot more responsible than continuing a pregnancy and definitely preferable than trying to raise a child themselves.  They didn’t need morality lectures, they needed help.  Addiction, prostitution, domestic violence, developmental problems leading to abuse…  Also, many of them were exotic dancers and being pregnant tended to reduce their tips.  Turns out that most dudes that go to strip clubs aren’t turned on by a pregnant stripper.

Comment #6: BadKitty  on  03/09  at  10:44 PM

I saw the segment when it aired too and I was screaming at the TV.  It was made of wrong - from beginning to end.  The only possible way it could be useful is to highlight the lunacy of Blackwell’s position, since most people are for contraception even if they’re uncomfortable with abortion. 

Back in the 80s, the book “Swept Away” described the way that mixed messages about sexuality creates disconsonance in women’s sexual attitudes and behaviors.  Sadly, the book is just as applicable today.

Comment #7: DonnaDiva  on  03/09  at  10:50 PM

BadKitty, I think she gives her reasons in the article.  Her reasons are good—-it comes up a lot, men talk about it in the abstract, and it’s natural to mention it in those cases if you don’t think it’s a bad thing and if you dislike dishonesty.  I’d have no problem telling men about it.  If they judge, though, that’s a bummer.

Seriously, where I come from, casual discussion of medical issues isn’t at all off-limits.  I don’t know anyone who goes out of their way to talk about it, but if it comes up, it does.  And such a contentious issue as abortion comes up a lot, and so it seems natural to mention it.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/09  at  10:58 PM

We were having a discussion of trans issues in my psych class the other day, and one guy - who identifies himself as a liberal and as being all about personal freedom and all about individual rights and so forth - when all out arguing that, just as trans folk are required to get a psychologist’s approval before being granted access to sex change surgery (patronizing language intended), so too should women who want abortions. It boggles the mind: personal freedom, unless you are doing anything involving sex or gender. Then I want to butt in and make you pay for me to be the gatekeeper to your own body. Ugg.

Comment #9: Dymphna  on  03/09  at  11:00 PM

Next up: three white guys on why black men have such trouble making it to the top of wall street…

Another item not on the agenda: putting some women in such constrained economic and personal circumstances that unplanned pregnancy doesn’t seem like such a big issue until it actually occurs.

Comment #10: paul  on  03/09  at  11:05 PM

Awesome as usual, Amanda.  I watched that segment, and my urge to take an assault charge because it would be worth it, nothing serious mind you, having never been remotely violent once in my life, was getting a big kick in the ass from Saletan’s faux “centrism” on the issue.

What.  A.  Dick.

And where to put this newfound desire to break a nose, or even frighten into believing I MIGHT break a nose?

It’s all new to me.

And don’t think it was only women who watched and thought, what kind of a**hole would do a segment on abortion without any women?  How could that even OCCUR to the producers of the show?

And here’s another existential question:  How does one resolve their loathing of the Talking Heads in any other way but disengaging, when trying to stay current is not good for the cause of personal sanity?  Is this the “paradox of thrift” writ socially?

Comment #11: John O  on  03/09  at  11:25 PM

Bad Kitty, your observation about strippers is well worth noting.  I mean, here’s women who are definitely marked as sex objects that don’t deserve basic respect, and they get a lot more abortions.  More data for my theory that unintended pregnancy is often a direct result of being unable to negotiate safe sex practices with men.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/09  at  11:40 PM

just as trans folk are required to get a psychologist’s approval before being granted access to sex change surgery (patronizing language intended), so too should women who want abortions.

Well, hell, it would make a lot more sense the other way around—women who do not want abortions, who want to spend the next 18 years raising a child, ought to be the ones needing a psychologist’s approval.  Not that it makes any sense at all . . .

Comment #13: rea  on  03/09  at  11:41 PM

Can we get an all female panel together to discuss what kind of care men should get when they get prostate cancer?

BadKitty, it can be hard to go through an intimate emotional relationship without being able to discuss something that happened to you.  For a lot of women, an abortion may not have been traumatic, but it wasn’t a walk in the park either.  It helps to have a partner you can talk to about your life experiences and to know that your partner is going to be supportive.  At the very least, putting it out there helps you rule out the dickweeds who can’t handle women’s autonomy.

Comment #14: Godless Heathen  on  03/09  at  11:42 PM

“In my experience, however, wearing clothes, speaking, and walking upright tend to be enough to signal to other humans that I am not a lemur or a newt.”

Don’t forget we have thumbs to differentiate us from the other species as well.

“...starting at a conclusion and then coming up with a rationalization to justify it.”

Good observation. I call it “arguing backward.”

Comment #15: daphne  on  03/09  at  11:43 PM

Saletan’s big on the value of moralizing and lecturing women, and he thinks this will create common ground with conservatives, who feel like women who have sex should be punished somehow.

So what’s the obsession with “finding common ground” with a bunch of misogynists? 

It’s similar to the Rauch/Blankenhorn article Pam noted a few weeks back. Granted, Rauch shares with Blankenhorn pretty much every political position other than the gay ones (if Rauch weren’t gay, he’d be part of the right-wing haters). But, why on earth the obsession with finding common ground with those who don’t give a shit about finding common ground?  What’s the point of attempting to find a middle space with those who wish we didn’t exist? What’s the point of finding a middle space with those who despise women’s sexuality? what the hell is wrong with these people?

Comment #16: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  03/09  at  11:44 PM

I love how Lords Matthews and Saletan talk about “people who have abortions.” You know, those people. People like Chris and Will, regular guys, except well, you know…

Comment #17: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  03/09  at  11:49 PM

It is *animals* who have mating seasons which have evolved *only* to precreate. Lord Salteen is so fill of it, its oozing out his ears. He probably has brown eyes, too.

Comment #18: Kwillow  on  03/10  at  12:22 AM

I mean, really!  Imagine horses or whales or spiders mating just for fun!  Maybe there should be a panel debating whether female spiders or preying mantis’ should eat their mate’s head after mating if its only for -cough- fun.

Comment #19: Kwillow  on  03/10  at  12:31 AM

MAJeff—I am probably in the minority on this one but I do think it’s kind of encouraging that people like Saletan are interested in ‘finding common ground’ because it means they are all the more likely to stop yelling and have a discussion about it. Saletan might have some plainly goofy ideas about women but wanting to talk about repro health is a huge step in the right direction from, say, hassling women going into Planned Parenthood.

Comment #20: Colin  on  03/10  at  12:39 AM

That said normally I am reading about Saletan on people like Ross Douthat’s blog and not watching Blackwell yell everything that pops in his head, when it comes to discussions like this.

Comment #21: Colin  on  03/10  at  12:40 AM

Lord Saletan also had a barnburner in Slate today, explaining why liberals should also feel bad about stem cell research, because advocating it too much is the moral equivalent of defending torture.

No, seriously.

Comment #22: lodger  on  03/10  at  12:41 AM

Hearing these guys makes me want to go out and get an abortion…and I’m not even pregnant!

Comment #23: Arakiba  on  03/10  at  12:56 AM

Wow. I love how Matthews calls birth control the lesser of two “evils”. I don’t think my birth control pills nor my partners condoms are “evil”. They are divine.

And why didn’t anyone call out Blackwell when he stated that “science” is on their side and they’re winning because “science” “proves” that life begins at conception? I almost choked on the air I gasped.

Comment #24: UltraMagnus  on  03/10  at  12:58 AM

So what’s the obsession with “finding common ground” with a bunch of misogynists?

I think there’s an important distinction to be made between legitimate attempts to find common ground - such as with people who are uncomfortable with abortion but aren’t nutjobs who think women should be punished for sex - and totally wasted efforts on misogynistic nutjobs like Blackwell. 

OTOH, the task is not made easier by the disturbing number of people, even among those who identify as pro-choice, who say things like, “But I don’t think abortion should be used as birth control.”  Saletan seems to be in that camp.  Or you have guys like Tweety, who act like letting women have the “lesser evil” of contraception is an extraordinary act of magnanimity.  The sheer level of douchebaggery infecting the discourse on reproductive health in the MSM makes it a wonder that women are able to get accurate information about contraception at all.

Comment #25: DonnaDiva  on  03/10  at  01:39 AM

Truly irresponsible women of the sort they’re imagining are the ones who can’t get it together to get the abortion and end up being in someone’s child protective services case file. It’s a small minority of women who don’t use or barely use contraception that get most abortions, yes.  If we could get them to use contraception, that would significantly reduce the abortion rate . . . .

But my paycheck depends on these women! Don’t take them away from me! In all seriousness, I wish my job would become obsolete. I work with foster kids and their birth parents, and those parents are all kinds of f’ed up. These aren’t people who had kids, messed up, had their kids taken away, and have some hope of getting them back. These are people who should never have had kids in the first place. It’s a very sad situation, and the children are surprisingly resilient. It’s very easy for people to say “They should just use birth control.” But the people who need birth control the most don’t have the same access, the sense, or the mental stability that most other women have to get birth control.

Comment #26: Emily  on  03/10  at  01:53 AM

Saletan’s instigating factoid is that the small minority of sexually active straight women who don’t use any form of contraception account for half of abortions….

What is the source for his assertion?

I ask because, although about 48% of unintended pregnancies result from contraceptive failure, with 52% of unintended pregnancies contributed by the 10.7% of women who use no method at all, an unintended pregnancy does not equal abortion.

[Of the 3.1 million unintended pregnancies: 1.4 million unplanned births and 1.3 million induced abortions (plus an estimated 400,000 miscarriages).]

Looking at contraceptive [non]use in women who obtain abortions, we have:

Forty-six percent of women had not used a method in the month of conception, but 38% had used one previously. Of these prior users, 42% had used a contraceptive method within three months of conception, and 65% had used a method within six months…. Eight percent of women having abortions indicated that they had never used a contraceptive method….

Prior users are a different patient population from never users.

Further complicating the matter, note the reasons given for not using a method:

Forty-six percent of women had not used a contraceptive method in the month they conceived, mainly because of perceived low risk of pregnancy and concerns about contraception (cited by 33% and 32% of nonusers, respectively).

Lecturing women who don’t think they’re at risk for pregnancy (for whatever reason) or who have concerns about contraception about morality is utter nonsense.

Comment #27: ema  on  03/10  at  01:56 AM

I was under the impression that fucking whenever you want to also separates humans from most other mammals. (Twillow alluded to this above.)

This business about “not using abortion as birth control” may be a dogwhistle. While we may agree that, sure, nearly any other birth control method is superior, it’s intended to signal to others that if you do accidentally get pregnant you deserve to be stuck with it.

There probably ought to be some counseling offered with an abortion, if needed: emotional support, remedial education, a gift bag with condoms and Plan B, perhaps, and a list of local resources. I’m not suggesting that this isn’t already done; I don’t know.

Comment #28: bad Jim  on  03/10  at  02:05 AM

“It’s mildly useful that Blackwell openly admits and downright brags about how he and his are basically against women having sex and that the only form of birth control they’ll tolerate is the pill you hold between your knees.”

Okay.  What the hell does “hold the pill between your knees” mean?  Can someone explain this to me?  I heard it used once in passing by a pro-lifer and it’s been confusing me ever since.

Comment #29: jackalopemonger  on  03/10  at  02:10 AM

I don’t watch Chris Mattews that often.  Does he always seem drunk?

Comment #30: Hari Narayan Singh Khalsa  on  03/10  at  02:17 AM

I should clarify:  I know what it’s a euphemism for.  I’m just wondering what that phrase originated from.

Comment #31: jackalopemonger  on  03/10  at  02:18 AM

“Also, dating is hard afterwards, because a lot of dudes are technically pro-choice, but still so attached to the idea of Sperm Magic that abortion makes them uneasy, and they wish that women were all upset at their rejection of the masculine life force for reasons of convenience”

i think that this is refering to continuing to date the person who got you pregnant - you killed their sperm! or some such shit.

other than that…
i hate Blackwell. i live in Ohio, so i have LOTS of extra reasons.

jackalopemonger: the phrase is, if i remember correctly, from lying literature put out saying that BC doesn’t actually work, and that the only way the Pill WOULD work is if you put it between your knees, meaning (as you alluded too) “keeping your legs together”

Comment #32: denelian  on  03/10  at  02:22 AM

jackalopemonger: back in the 60’s someone said the only completely safe and effective birth control pill was one held between the knees. (It has also been asserted that there is at least one position in which one can copulate while satisfying that constraint.)

Comment #33: bad Jim  on  03/10  at  02:27 AM

Why would you have to tell someone that you date later about an abortion you had earlier?  Unless you had some kind of major complication which affected your fertility and this new partner wants to procreate, your medical history isn’t anyone else’s business.  Having an abortion is nothing to be ashamed of, bragged about or “confessed”.
BadKitty on 03/09 at 05:29 PM

Well, I certainly never asked, but in each of the two most important relationships in my life—my first one, and the one that eventually lasted 15 years—my girlfriend chose to tell me, fairly soon after I first met them.

It certainly helped me come to terms with the reality that abortion is a thing smart, together women I admire and in these cases loved do, and I came from a background that taught the opposite. I don’t think either of them would have said anything if I hadn’t already evolved more progressive thinking on the matter by then—but neither do I suppose either would have been interested in a relationship with me in that case either. Them sharing this with me at any rate helped solidify my new convictions.

None of which implies in any way that anyone should ever be obligated to share such private things. It can be very risky, nor is anyone else entitled to know. But I appreciated that they trusted me with these intimate facts, and I think it was good for the relationships that they saw I could be trusted with them.

Now, there are lots of types of relationships where it would really not be a good idea, but I am not very good on the whole subject of light, casual relationships—they seem like an OK, even great, idea in principle, but I don’t know how to do them, so I don’t know much about them. When I’ve gone into relationships I tend to take them really seriously and so this kind of close intimacy seems right. (But now that I think of it, this may have been a big part of how my last relationship went sour—or maybe it didn’t really, it just ended and there was some uncomfortable disentangling to do because I didn’t understand how to let go. In that one, there was no discussion of sexual history on either side—because she said to shut up about it).

Anyway I just think there is more discursive space to consider than “ashamed, bragging, confessing.” That doesn’t apply to any of what my first girlfriend or my long-term one was doing.

Comment #34: Mark Foxwell  on  03/10  at  02:36 AM

I love how Lords Matthews and Saletan talk about “people who have abortions.” You know, those people. People like Chris and Will, regular guys, except well, you know…

Seriously, I stopped watching at two minutes because I got pissed that they kept saying “those people” or “people”. It was bad enough having three men discussing women’s reproductive rights, but to actually disappear women from the conversation by never actually saying “women who choose abortion” or “women who do/don’t use contraception”...just, wow.  I really love being a non-entity to these douchebags.

Comment #35: history_mom  on  03/10  at  02:39 AM

For recreational sex, we humans can only be compared to dolphins and bonobos - the species where both of the participants want to do it.  And the species that have the most intelligence.Males of many species of mammals are quite willing to have sex most of the time, but females of most of these species are receptive for very limited periods [estrus].  If they are not in the receptive phase, males are usually uninterested, or if they are, the females use behaviors that make it known that she is not available. 

So, we should not act like the smart animals, only like the dumber animals.  Good comparison, Blackwell.

Comment #36: natural cynic  on  03/10  at  03:09 AM

Indeed, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that a lot of women hear from their own partners both messages about how you have to do it, but you’re a slut if you do.

I had a chance encounter many years ago with a woman who had just walked out on her “old man” (her term) because he was apparently the living stereotype of the selfish male sex partner: No foreplay, screw until he orgasms, done.  According to her, when she brought up the idea that it would be nice if, y’know, she got some pleasure out of sex as well, he screamed at her that she was a whore and a cunt.  So yeah, I can confirm there’s at least one woman out there that was getting both messages, or at least they were 16 or so years ago.

Comment #37: JCfromNC  on  03/10  at  03:16 AM

Their constant use of the word ‘people’ instead of ‘women’ is just infuriating. Attempting to sound ‘gender neutral’ when talking about abortion, as if it was something equally in the hands of men as well as women, is just insulting.

Comment #38: Pietoro  on  03/10  at  04:08 AM

“Saletan might have some plainly goofy ideas about women but wanting to talk about repro health is a huge step in the right direction from, say, hassling women going into Planned Parenthood.”

No, the people hassling women going into Planned Parenthood are there to make people like Saletan’s plainly goofy ideas seem less extreme.

Comment #39: preying mantis  on  03/10  at  09:00 AM

I think it was Glenn Greenwald who said that Saletan is genuinely eager for people to reach a reasonable middle ground, said reasonable middle ground being defined by whatever Saletan believes and why can’t people be as reasonable as him?  Priceless.

I think that the problem with Saletan and Amy Sullivan is that they often make the mistake of excessively urging those on the left to move towards the right as compromise.  There is an inherent recognition that reasonable folks on the left are more likely to compromise ergo there is a higher return for your investment, i.e., pressure.  I must confess that whatever the topic I find myself thinking, “oh, fuck off and wag your finger at the right about compromise for a change” is something that occurs to me a great deal when either of those two get going.

Equally foolish in Saletan’s premise is that he never seems to recognize the fact that regarding abortion and such like matters he is, when dealing with the right, dealing with maximalists and absolutists.  Even those on the right who might want to have secretive access to abortions for themselves or their pregnant daughter do not want anybody else to have them.  They aren’t interested in compromise, so why bother?

Comment #40: seeker6079  on  03/10  at  09:49 AM

ema, I think Saletan has a point:

Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy, 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had had unexpected sex and 1% had been forced to have sex.

Your link, my link—-it’s true that 46% of abortions come from the small minority of women who weren’t using anything.  That’s nearly half.  The 32% and 26% that “had concerns” or “unexpected” sex are the ones that I think require a lot more research, because “had concerns” and “unexpected sex” are red flags to me that indicate that there’s serious, underlying issues.  But not, of course, that the women are stupid or that a moralizing lecture will work. 

Where Saletan screws up is he sees those phrases and fills in “reckless bimbo”.  In fact, that’s hard not to do.  “I had ‘concerns’ so I got pregnant anyway,” does sound stupid.  That’s why more research is needed to clarify what “concerns” and “unexpected” mean—-I suspect coercion is a huge part of the unexpected.  Many rape victims are unwilling to label their experiences rape, and many coercive sexual experiences aren’t considered rape by the law.

Barry realized that if the U.S. could get the abortion rate down to Belgium’s, we would have 700,000 fewer abortions.  That would be a 57% reduction in the abortion rate.  That means that it is, in fact, doable for cultural and government responses to get that 46% to use something and the rest to use something more consistently.  I say we ask how they did it.  I bet they did it by being responsive to what women who have abortions actually say.

bad Jim, it’s already done.  Maybe not in 100% of clinics.  One problem is that not all clinics are exactly the same.  But most, yeah.  Saletan admitted as much later, but watch for him to “forget” that counseling about contraception is already part of the services.  For all that he writes about it, it’s time he humbled himself and spent a day at a clinic as an observer, though being a man, he may be blocked from it.

Comment #41: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/10  at  10:24 AM

This is where it must be frustrating to be a reproductive rights advocate in the USA, because all conversations are a variant on this:

Right-to-Lifer: “The most important thing is stopping abortions!”
Right-to-Choicer: “If we had a functioning sex-ed system and ready access to contraception we could reduce the number of abortions by hundreds of thousands.”
Right-to-Lifer:  “No.  I will only accept a complete stop!”

Lather,  rinse, repeat.

Comment #42: seeker6079  on  03/10  at  10:50 AM

jackalopemonger: back in the 60’s someone said the only completely safe and effective birth control pill was one held between the knees. (It has also been asserted that there is at least one position in which one can copulate while satisfying that constraint.)

It goes back a lot further than that - there’s a centuries-old joke about the only way to keep from getting pregnant is to keep a shilling/penny/whatever between your knees.

In addition to the point about it being totally possible to have sex like that, I always found the “pill between your knees” phrase to be funny because oral contraceptives can be taken vaginally.  It’s recommended for women who get stomach irritation or who have a nausea-causing illness.

Comment #43: Leely  on  03/10  at  10:58 AM

Saletan is going Meghan “Jane Galt” McArdle’s analysis of the Guttermacher data. He wrote several days ago that he was convinced by McArdle’s “careful” analysis of this data purporting to show that the “pro-choice” solution of giving out birth control won’t reduce the number of abortions.

The study tabulates the reasons women having abortions gave for not using b/c. McArdle makes a big deal of the fact that about 30% of women getting abortions said they didn’t use b/c because they thought they were at low risk of getting pregnant but only about 8% said they didn’t use b/c because they couldn’t afford it.

I’m just a demented pro-choicer, but the obvious implication of this data is that we have a SEX ED problem, not a morality problem. A significant percentage of the population is wandering around with the profound misapprehension that they can accurately predict “low risk” times of the month to have unprotected heterosexual intercourse. If they knew the facts, they wouldn’t believe that. It’s not that they’re irresponsible, it’s that they’re empirically mistaken.

Comment #44: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  03/10  at  10:58 AM

“McArdle makes a big deal of the fact that about 30% of women getting abortions said they didn’t use b/c because they thought they were at low risk of getting pregnant but only about 8% said they didn’t use b/c because they couldn’t afford it.”

Not to mention that it tends to be an if-then problem. “If I’m probably not going to get pregnant from this, then I don’t need to spend money I need for other things on BC.” “If I’m probably not fertile right now, then I don’t need to fight with him over condom use.” “If he says he’s had a vasectomy, I can save the condoms until I need them.” If you make BC of all types readily available, for free, you’re probably going to see a lot fewer women taking the risk even if you don’t manage to make their assessment of it more accurate.

Comment #45: preying mantis  on  03/10  at  11:29 AM

Here’s a corny joke I heard from some late night call-in show as a teen:

Q: What do you call people who use the rhythm method as birth control?
A: Parents.

If 15% of all abortions are for women who thought they were at low risk for getting pregnant, we need to educate people better about this.  I’m glad that I was well-informed from an early age so I’ve never had to face this choice.  I’m also glad that if I do have to face this choice in future, it will be up to me to make it.

Comment #46: bananacat  on  03/10  at  11:35 AM

Anybody who calls himself “Lord” anything needs to be laughed at ... repeatedly ... until he either gets a clue or goes away.

Comment #47: Ms Kate  on  03/10  at  12:28 PM

It’s a small minority of women who don’t use or barely use contraception that get most abortions, yes. 

Not like men have any responsibility here, you know.

Comment #48: Ms Kate  on  03/10  at  12:29 PM

Leely, bad Jim:  thanks for the info!

Comment #49: jackalopemonger  on  03/10  at  12:40 PM

To add to what Lindsay said, one reason a lot of women think they can’t get pregnant is that every time you turn around, you see another hysterical news story about how you won’t be able to have babies if you wait until you’re 27 or whatever.  A lot of people really think there’s a long period of infertility before menopause, when in fact you can get pregnant right up until it.  The media acts like this declining fertility is true across the board, ignoring factors like STD transmission that add to the growing numbers of women who have fertility issues in their 30s.  So many women get lax about birth control in their late 30s and get pregnant. 

Of course, that’s probably only one contributing factor. What they need to do is intense surveying, using interviews instead of multiple choice surveys, to get at exactly what’s going on.  Why didn’t you think you could get pregnant?  Was it the “safe times” issue, a false belief in early menopause, what?  I’d love to know more about the stories behind these pat answers.

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/10  at  12:48 PM

In my experience, however, wearing clothes, speaking, and walking upright tend to be enough to signal to other humans that I am not a lemur or a newt.

It’s possible that you were a newt, and just got better.

McArdle makes a big deal of the fact that about 30% of women getting abortions said they didn’t use b/c because they thought they were at low risk of getting pregnant but only about 8% said they didn’t use b/c because they couldn’t afford it.

Of course, this couldn’t have anything to do with the fact that sex ed for the last decade has consisted largely of exhortations to abstinence, with intimations that birth control is ineffective and morally equivalent to abortion anyway.  I’m firmly with Lindsay Beyerstein: the Guttmacher data isn’t as granular as I’d like to see, but the implication is that sex ed—in the sense of organized classes, as well as common social knowledge—is simply failing.

Comment #51: Robert McCowen  on  03/10  at  01:20 PM

Rule #1 about Chris Matthews:  he’s awesome unless the subject touches women in any way, either a specific woman, or issues concerning women.  Then he turns into an off-his-rocker shithead, inviting guests that hate women in general or who hate the specific woman being discussed, and most likely both.  I usually watch the first few minutes when he announces the evening’s general subjects, and if he says “Hillary Clinton” or “Octo-Mom” I don’t watch; if he says “abortion”,  “contraception”, “birth”, “feminist”, or any other women’s issues indicator, I don’t watch it that night, because, like you all, I will end up screaming at the TV.

Comment #52: roro80  on  03/10  at  01:50 PM

A possibly-obsolete data point, but when I went through high school in Louisiana in the early 1980’s, there was NO sex ed whatsoever.  It wouldn’t surprise me to find that that is still the case, and that many school districts throughout the “bible belt” also don’t offer it.

Please don’t be fooled by Saletan’s oh-so-reasonable quest for some kind of middle ground.  He only looked reasonable and moderate on that show because he was paired up with raving lunatic Ken Blackwell.  If your choice for national leader was between George W. Bush and Stalin, that still wouldn’t make Bush a good choice.  Saletan is not on your side.

Bob Somerby has extensively chronicled Chris Matthews’ irrationality when it comes to Hillary Clinton.

Comment #53: liberalrob  on  03/10  at  02:42 PM

As a college student, I know several young women who simply (and openly) don’t use any form of contraception. I have a few thoughts on it:

- Where I live, serving jobs are just about the only places inexperienced young people can find work. This leads to two problems: one, they often have a schedule that varies greatly from day-to-day, which makes it more difficult to take the pill consistently, and two, they’re only paid $3.35/hour plus tips, which means that their income fluctuates and some months they have a hard time making rent (and $25-40 for BC is just not an option).

- Unfortunately, a LOT of young men seem convinced that the inconvenience of condom use outweighs its benefits. Even if they don’t directly tell their partners they won’t use them, many young women don’t feel comfortable asking them to.

- The side effects of hormonal contraceptives can be pretty severe for some women, especially in the first few months of use. I almost stopped taking the pill during my first month because the mood swings were having a tangible impact on my relationship, and I felt fatigued ALL the time. I personally consider pregnancy a major concern, so I stuck it out… but I can definitely see why some women wouldn’t.

Comment #54: Katie Joy  on  03/10  at  02:48 PM

To go way up thread, I didn’t know too many strippers who got abortions, several with children though. No more so than the general population, I’d wager. I remember one particularly charming customer giving me a lot of hell about the patch, most guys would see it, ask if I was quitting smoking or avoiding pregnancy, I’d chirp avoiding pregnancy and life would be well. Except this one guy that went on and on and on about how it would be bad for business and I should go on the pill instead and it was so much better and blah blah blah. Not that he was spending any money, was giving the bartenders hell and was obviously an ass in every way possible, but still annoyed me. You could probably do a very interesting social commentary of how men treat strippers - not the girl you take home to mother, so how does one treat her? Not that all were horrendous, but the assholes really stood out.

imnotsorry.net actually has a lot of stories of “well I hadn’t gotten pregnant once, so I thought I couldn’t” as to why women hadn’t been using contraception consistently. A friend of mine had the same experience resulting in a pregnancy (and birth), basically thought that because she hadn’t gotten pregnant from ‘risky’ encounters yet (and by that I mean rhythm method or pulling out or not using anything for one encounter) than she didn’t need to be too careful about birth control. And a few “what, I’m too old to be pregnant!” thoughts. But god forbid people like Saletan or Blackwell actually consider a website like that when painting all women who have had abortions with the same brush.

Me, I love my implanon. My mother talks about it to clients considering birth control options: “My daughter used implanon and she’s very happy with it.” Hoorah for long-term options.

Comment #55: Tenya  on  03/10  at  03:14 PM

mainly because of perceived low risk of pregnancy and concerns about contraception (cited by 33% and 32% of nonusers, respectively).

Lecturing women who don’t think they’re at risk for pregnancy (for whatever reason) or who have concerns about contraception about morality is utter nonsense.

I’m sorry, but no.

That “perceived” low risk of pregnancy could be among women who are at or near menopause who think they can’t get pregnant, but it’s just as likely to be women who know little to nothing about pregnancy and human anatomy.  There still are people out there who believe that a woman can’t get pregnant the first time she has sex, that a woman can’t get pregnant while having sex in a pool, that douching will lower or eliminate the risk of pregnancy.  These beliefs are an incredible failure of our school system, and much of it can be blamed on abstinence-only education, but it’s absolutely not nonsense to correct those erroneous beliefs.

I guess I’m in the minority of thinking that it’s not a bad thing for abortion providers to offer contraceptive counseling to women seeking an abortion.  Perhaps one thing that providers could do is give women a questionnaire when they come in, asking about their knowledge of pregnancy and contraceptives.  Any patient who doesn’t know much or anything about those subjects gets the counseling, anyone who passes with flying colors gets spared a boring lecture.

Comment #56: keshmeshi  on  03/10  at  03:43 PM

Keshmeshi:

I think you’re misreading the bit you quote. No one is arguing against contraceptive counseling based on “no, you really are at high risk for pregnancy most of the month” and “if these contraceptive methods aren’t good for you, try these other ones, oh, and by the way, what you’ve heard about condoms failing most of the time is baloney.” What they’re arguing about is lectures along the lines of “You’d better learn to tell your husband to use a condom, even though he has a job and you don’t, or else you’re just an evil abortion-loving slut.”

Comment #57: paul  on  03/10  at  04:10 PM

Actually, you *can’t* get pregnant for most of the month.

The tricky part is that a set of careful measurements (temperature, cervical fluid, etc.) tell you when you are approaching ovulation, the counting method really doesn’t.

Another tricky part is that sometimes sperm can stick around (possibly for up to a week) and then zap you right in your fertile 24-48 hour window.

The one time I became pregnant, I knew I was fertile.  (Of course, my signs are pretty dramatic, it is perfectly normal for ovulation not to be obvious, even if you know what you are looking for.)

Comment #58: Ismone  on  03/10  at  04:46 PM

I really don’t quite get Saletan. I only got as far as him saying that liberals need to stop relying on just the availability of contraception and start making sure people (through sex education) know how to use and then do use contraception. Umm, it’s liberals that want such comprehensive sex education. If this is what he thinks is the centrist argument, then he’s not looking at the conservative argument. And Blackwell says he is against such sex education a minute later. Except for the shaming part, Saletan is arguing for a program that liberals have been arguing for for the last two or three decades. How does he not get that conservatives will not agree to this (since many like the Catholic Church are also against contraception)? Is he stupid (does he ignore Blackwell? ok, I can see that)?

Comment #59: JohnL  on  03/10  at  04:51 PM

Amanda, you’ve given me a great idea. The next time they debate this issue, they should have a panel composed entirely of lemurs. It would be at least as informative, and far more adorable.

Comment #60: Liz212  on  03/10  at  09:33 PM

jackalopemonger asks; “Okay.  What the hell does “hold the pill between your knees” mean?  Can someone explain this to me?  I heard it used once in passing by a pro-lifer and it’s been confusing me ever since.”

I was once called a “fornicating lesbian whore”.  I had a serious identity crisis for about 2 seconds then I had to explain to him, using my fingers as a learning tool, that lesbians don’t fornicate.  He seemed very confused.

As for the three clueless boys on their discussion of the issue involving lady parts, perhaps a discussion could be had involving Rachel Maddow (moderator), Cecil Richards (moderate) and Catherine McKinnon (extremist) on how uroligists should question their patients when they come in with STD’s and what common ground we can find on how to compromise their autonomy as moral agents.

Comment #62: curtis  on  03/10  at  10:39 PM

Curtis—I would so pay to watch that panel discussion.

JohnL—Regardless of the Church’s position, 97% of Catholic women use contraception at least once in their lives, making them just like—non-Catholic women in terms of contraceptive use. 

I am hoping the other 3% are nuns or just asexual.

Comment #63: Ismone  on  03/10  at  10:45 PM

I’m a little more sympathetic to Saletan’s position because, at least early on, it seemed pretty clear that he’s motivated entirely by panic that the Blackwells (and, more ominously, the Alitos, Scalias, Robertses, Thomases, and Kennedys) are going to successfully overturn Roe.

The problem being that he’s totally fallen into the totally ‘winger-manufactured frame that the issue is abortion instead of pregnancy.  Consequently he frets about ways to reduce demand for abortion instead of ways to reduce unplanned, unwanted pregnancies.

Making it about abortion (where it’s perfectly logical to say things like “hmm… how can we deal with those pesky ‘repeat offenders?’”) makes the hard-core anti-abortion, anti-contraception, anti-choice, anti-autonomy happy because only women have anything to do with abortion.  And so they can make it all about blaming women, holding women responsible, and controlling women.

Another reason it makes ‘wingers happy to use *their* frame is that like it or not the majority “mushy middle” is queasy about abortion.  And ‘wingers *really really* like it.  They can hide in it, they can exploit it, and they draw *tremendous* strength from it.

But the thing is the mushy middle is every bit as queasy about unplanned, unwanted pregnancy.  (That they’re equally queasy about abortion *and* pregnancy is exactly what makes them “mushy.”)  Which is why I’m actually more sanguine about efforts to find “middle ground” on the issue.  There’s no possibility of finding any actual common ground with the Blackwells of the world, but shifting by shifting the emphasis to reducing unplanned, unwanted pregnancies we can drive a giant freaking wedge between the ‘wingers and everybody else.  Because everybody else, including even most merely sentimental, non-ideological abortion opponents, are perfectly comfortable backing sex education, more social support, and initiatives to make contraception safer, more reliable, more affordable, more available, more varied, and easier to use.  Inside that frame ‘wingers stop looking extra “passionate” and start looking like… the obstructionist, misogynist kooks they are.

But inside *that* frame the “mushy middle” might start looking a lot more resolute.

—-

Incidentally, another thing about shifting from an abortion frame to pregnancy prevention, by the way, is that while *abortion* might be only a women’s issue responsibiity for *pregnancy* is not.  And inside *that* frame you can bloody well hold women *and* men accountable, you can do education and outreach for women *and* men, and you can bloody well agitate for safe, reliable, affordable, available, varied, and easier to use *contraception* for women *and* men. 

‘Wingers might hate that.  Some so-called “librul doods” might hate that.  A few really old-school feminists might not be too crazy about it (although I suspect most would be happy to see it.)  Heck, even classic MSM “battered partner syndrome” types like Saletan might be too paralyzed to fear to participate in it.  And sure, I know it sounds crazy, but since *not* trying it hasn’t been particularly successful (in no small part to anti-feminist framing of men’s immaturity, irresponsibility, and incapacity) it’s not like it’ll hurt to try.

Cool, cool post Amanda.

figleaf

Comment #64: figleaf  on  03/11  at  02:54 AM

Doh!  But then again,  I appear to have been wrong about Saletan’s motivation.  I still think that makes him a species type for the mushy middle, and still an excellent candidate for shock-trooping the Prevention-First style wedges between, well, himself and the likes of Blackwell.  But “You won.  Now for your next challenge: don’t lose your soul” is a little… um… prim.

figleaf

Comment #65: figleaf  on  03/11  at  01:56 PM

Amanda:  This is a terrific post.  Thanks. 

I grew up in a fundie household and, surprise surprise, got pregnant at 18.  You have absolutely hit the nail on the head when you write that “the reason women don’t use contraception is that they don’t feel empowered to do so.”

Keep up the good work. 

(long time reader, never commented here before, I hang out at Eschaton)

Comment #66: TJ in NC  on  03/13  at  12:09 PM
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