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Next entry: No laughing, no screwing, no learning how to read Previous entry: Why isn’t my (love, commitment, and) marriage recognized in all 50 states?

Mad Men Monday: Katie Roiphe is wrong again

Honestly, it must be exhausting to be Katie Roiphe, to have to spend so much time ginning up stories where the whole point of them is to be so wrong that it makes people physically uncomfortable.  I mean, if I could get paid like she does to be wrong in ways that delight and invigorate the privileged as they strafe against the guilt trips laid upon them by those who have no real power over them, maybe I’d be able to summon the energies to be so very, very wrong all the fucking time.  Her Saturday essay about “Mad Men” theorizes that people are fascinated with the show because of jez jelus, because supposedly Americans are a bunch of health nuts who don’t drink very much, or commit adultery.  (Hat tip.) 

I will say this in Roiphe’s favor: She does do a neat trick, turning inside out the usual mainstream media assumption that the East Coast elite aren’t “Real Americans”, and replacing it with the assumption that they are the only real Americans.  Statistically speaking, the notion that we are a nation hungry to leave the gym to sit our collective asses swilling alcohol and screwing around, is completely backwards. Compared to the 1960s, for instance, Americans are much thicker in the waist, indicating that Roiphe’s thesis that we’ve abandoned gluttony for the elliptical simply can’t be true.  In the U.S., per capita alcohol consumption has remained steady since the 60s—-in 1965, it was 2.27 gallons of ethanol alcohol per capita, and in 2007 it was 2.31.  As for adultery, well, that’s a tougher row to hoe.  The notion that we’re less sexually promiscuous in the 60s is flatly false, as any hysterical conservative will gladly tell you.  That we’ve replaced the young marriage-adultery-divorce-remarriage cycle that was really starting to dominate in the 60s (as documented on “Mad Men”) with the youthful experimentation-later marriage-fidelity with a dose of sex toys and porn in the bedroom cycle doesn’t strike me as being so sad, and Roiphe, to her credit, can’t even make a case for the deliciousness of the old ways of Doing It.  But should the allure of adultery inspired by youthful marriage and sexual repression still have its claws in you, there are many red states full of religious fundamentalism that provide that opportunity, and the high divorce rate to go with it.

At least she’s hip enough to catch that a lot of the culture of petty indulgence of the 60s was a minor escape from the crush of responsibility, though she makes the mistake of playing like the suburban set’s drinking and screwing around was somehow some new thing that precluded the hippie rebellion.

In the early ’60s they smoldered against the repression of the ’50s; and it may be that we smolder a little against the wilier and subtler repression of our own undoubtedly healthier, more upstanding times.

There was a slight increase in alcohol consumption from 1955 to 1965—-2.00 to 2.27.  I wouldn’t overthink that, except to point out that as the Baby Boomers grew to be teenagers and start drinking, this sort of thing was to be expected. 

But her argument is grander than statistical realities! 

Of course people still have hangovers and affairs, but what dominates the wholesome vista is a sense that everything we do should be productive, should be moving toward a sane and balanced end. The idea that you would do something just for the momentary blissful escape of it, for intensity, for strong feeling, is out of fashion.

When we talk about the three-martini lunch these days it is with contempt, with a pleasurable thrill of superiority. How much more sensible we are than them! How much healthier! How much more prolific! “How did anyone get any work done?” someone will invariably ask. But maybe that’s the wrong question, or maybe the kind of work they got done was a different kind of work, or maybe that’s not the highest and holiest standard to which we can hold the quality of human life.

Maybe it’s because they were in a culture that still had some relationship to the social contract, and subsequently people didn’t spend their every waking hour worrying and working to avoid being first in line during the inevitable layoffs.  But sure, blame organic milk.


What made this article particularly funny was that it came out right before an episode of “Mad Men” that seemed particularly determined to disprove Roiphe’s hints that modern people are kind of pathetic compared to the days when people reacted to repression by accepting the rules and then drinking and cheating to escape their miserable fates.  (Nowadays, we are so silly, thinking that if repression is what makes you sad, question the rules!)  “Christmas Comes But Once A Year” was all about how Don’s drinking and philandering has moved from the column of habits he can control to habits he can’t control, making him a pathetic figure in the eyes of his younger colleagues.  One thing in particular about Roiphe’s essay seems especially stupid, in light of this most recent episode:

[Gay Talese] also recalls copy girls slipping out in the middle of the day with more than one man to the surrounding hotels. “You didn’t have the word ‘exploitation’ then,” Mr. Talese said. “And mostly it wasn’t exploitation.”

The scene in “Christmas Comes But Once A Year” where Allison the secretary finds $100 cash in a card and stares in to space gives, I suspect, a more accurate explanation for why the word “exploitation” wasn’t used back then—-because women hadn’t started to put their mouths around the word, but not because they didn’t feel that way.  It’s easy for a man to praise a system where men were encouraged to think of themselves as swinging playboys, whether they were married or not, but women were still stuck with being considered washed-up and useless if they couldn’t get married by 30.  It’s a fundamentally right wing argument to say that exploitation didn’t exist until some feminists made the word up.  I wasn’t alive then, but I trust feminists who say that the word was created, as words usually are, to describe phenomenon that already existed.

Roiphe can’t see this, as she is congenitally incapable of empathizing with other women.  (For once, she does mention a female writer of the era, instead of sticking to her usual male-centric literary name-dropping.  But all she can glean from Mary McCarthy is that she drank a lot and slept around.  Not a whiff of a mention of McCarthy’s penetrating insights into how badly women especially were served by 60s style repression/release.)  This passage is exactly the sort of thing that reveals how much Roiphe misses with her knee-jerk anti-feminist inclinations:

I was also struck by how many of the parties she describes, on the beach, or on the Upper East Side, devolved into romantic chaos, how easily married men fell into bed with women who were not their wives.

Except they wouldn’t have called them “women”.  In the 1960s, men were men and women were “girls”, as least if they were considered sexually attractive enough to commit adultery with.  By skipping over this fact, Roiphe can comfortably pretend the main reason we recoil at the sexual politics on “Mad Men” is because we’ve grown sexually boring, despite having way more sexual partners on average, as well as legal sex toys, open homosexuality, and a sense that oral sex is perfectly normal, vanilla stuff. 

The funny thing is that up until last night, you could, by squinting sideways and wishing really hard, imagine that the screwing around on “Mad Men” isn’t supposed to be a horror show.  And that’s because Don has largely been attracted to women that are not beholden to him, that can walk away at any time.  The characters that exploit women straight up aren’t Don.  On the contrary—-think of the scene where Don uncomfortably entertains one sister while his boss Roger gets drunk with another one and makes her carry him around on her back, half-dressed.  At the most, we got a hint of how Don has an unfair amount of power over his lovers simply by being male when the schoolteacher asks sadly on the phone if she’s going to lose her job because she slept with him.  Again, Don shows his noble side and lets her off the hook. 

But now the notion that male power is offset by chivalry has fallen apart completely.  A weak moment, and Don’s rule against shitting where he eats is thrown out the window.  And the person paying the price is his secretary, someone the audience perceives as a woman, but who would have been assuredly called a “girl” by every man around her, including those younger than her. 

I don’t know if it’s just because we finally get AMC in HD or not, but I was particularly struck by how the camera reveals that Allison, while still young, has teeny tiny wrinkles starting to form around her eyes.  I’d like to think it was a deliberate choice to let her natural age shine through the make-up a little, letting us know that perhaps Allison is beginning to feel the pressure of approaching 30 while stuck in a career that has basically no ladder to climb.  The boss coming on to you in her position would usually be something to turn down or, if you give in, to forget basically immediately.  But Don is recently divorced, and has always kept a professional distance from her, unlike those other grabby men she’s had to put up with her entire adult life.  So when he comes on to you, it surely can feel like it’s for real, because he’s not that guy, right? But, as she learns at the end of the episode, in a world where that guy faces no consequences for his disrespect for women, any man can slip into being that guy if he wants to. 

It’s the ingredient that’s missing in Roiphe’s waxing nostalgic for a time she didn’t have to live through. Roiphe’s insinuations that our repressions are the same as they ever were, but we’re just less fun when we cope through escape, is missing the point in the ugliest way.  Maybe our escapes are less dramatic because our repressions are so severe.  Maybe it’s because you can be the 30-year-old secretary without having to convince yourself to give in to a dissatisfying sexual encounter with your drunk boss on the slim hope that he’ll up and marry you.  Maybe it’s because we don’t get married at age 20 because someone got knocked up, only to find ourselves restless 10 years later because we never got a chance to experiment a little before settling down.  Really, it’s sad that we even have to have this discussion, because frankly, it should be obvious. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:58 AM • (76) Comments

I saw Roiphe’s byline in the NY Times over the weekend and skipped the article completely.  Life’s too short and that’d be five minutes or so I’d never get back.

Weren’t the scenes with Sally and Glenn really riveting?  I loved last night’s show.

Comment #1: JennyLI  on  08/02  at  11:41 AM

Regarding Roiphe, some people are just way too attached to their misconceptions.  Ms Roiphe, who was born in 1968 and can only perceive the 1950s via Leave It To Beaver re-runs on TVland, has no idea how much adultery, drinking, and screwing around went on in the 1950s.  I suspect that there has been precious little fluctuation in screwing around, statistically, since monogamy became a norm for most cultures.  A huge percentage of literature predating the “revolutionary” 1960s describes adulterous affairs.  I have older relatives who were sexually active in the 1950s and they’ve assured me, with smiles that seem formed of memory rather than philosophy, that sexual promiscuity was not invented in the 1960s.

As for Mad Men:  Last night’s MM made an interesting juxtaposition between Freddy and Don, I thought.  Freddy may even have been a hotshot like Don ten years previous, before his drinking got out of control.  The show is doing a good job of showing how the still handsome Don is no longer the hot item he once was, with this being the second episode in a row where the “Don Draper Treatment” didn’t work with a woman much younger.  The school teacher may have been Don’s last hurrah in that arena.

Now, what’s with Peggy?  She surprised me last night with her little fiction.

Comment #2: DBK  on  08/02  at  12:02 PM

I think as far as Peggy’s faux virginity, it may be mostly a sin of omission.  I don’t think she’s painting this long, rosy story of purity for her boyfriend (what’s his name?)  I think she’s just letting him assume she’s a virgin, by not bringing up anything about Pete or Duck.  And he’s completely convinced, because he just doesn’t conceive that it’s possible.  He doesn’t doubt it for a moment.

Comment #3: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/02  at  12:06 PM

Yeah, I agree with DBK; Don is getting into a mess. I can see Freddy Rumson as Don’s Ghost of Christmas Future; spiraling downward into alcoholism, then (maybe) getting sober and finding the world has moved on without him.*

*Of course, Peggy hasn’t left the old world entirely either, or she wouldn’t be saying stuff like “Nothing makes old ladies look good!” But that may be a combination of frustration with Freddy and a 20 something’s certainty that she herself will never get old. It would be interesting to ask a 2010 Peggy about that, since she’d be an old lady herself today.

Comment #4: Blue Jean  on  08/02  at  12:09 PM

As long as KR doesn’t write about politics, the damage her stupidity can do is limited.  Assign her daytime soaps, and we can ignore her completely (my standard operating procedure).

Comment #5: tomdurk  on  08/02  at  12:10 PM

I think what happened is she didn’t sleep with him right away, and so he just assumed she was a virgin.  And she thought she might as well let him think it.  She’s got the JFK picture on the wall; she’s a good Catholic girl, right?

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  12:11 PM

Er, or what Loch Ness said. 

Blue Jean, I think Peggy’s speaking a straight up exposition of her advertising philosophy.  Not that old ladies can’t look good, but more that this isn’t what goes into ads now.  And she’s right; in the 60s, everything was being sold with dewy young women.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  12:13 PM

In fact, one of the most recognized and effective ad campagins of all times, was Ponds:

She’s engaged.

She’s lovely.

She uses Ponds.

And that was it.  The “she’ in question was a debutante.  That would have been years, in fact, I think decades (trying to think back to college marketing), before 1964.

It might be interesting to see where Peggy takes that girl.

Comment #8: JennyLI  on  08/02  at  12:18 PM

She’s a WONDERFUL Catholic girl…very much like the ones I slept with when I was younger.  grin

I get the “sin of omission” thing, but this is Peggy; I’ve been getting used to her being more courageous than this, standing up to people like Don and Freddy and her mother and the priest…telling Pete he’s a daddy.

Oh, and she didn’t sleep with just Duck and Pete.  There was some sort of zipless fuck in there somewhere too, wasn’t there?  I remember some guy she used for a roll in the hay and tossed away (Peggy testing out her inner Draper?)  I LOVED that Peggy.  She decided to try playing the game like the boys and she did it well and it seemed to work for her.

Comment #9: DBK  on  08/02  at  12:19 PM

Oh, and the other thing we know about Peggy’s boyfriend is that he spontaneously claimed to be her fiance.  So we have three facts here:  a.) he thinks she is (was) a virgin; b.) he’s interested in marrying her; c.) Peggy’s having conversations about ‘marriageability’

I think there’s a nasty scene coming where the boyfriend finds out about Pete, Duck, or maybe one of the other guys (though my money’s on Duck), either shortly before or after proposing to her.  And ends it with some brutal slut-shaming.  I just hope Joan’s in the room when it happens.

Comment #10: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/02  at  12:24 PM

I think right now the takeaway is the pressure to get married is so severe that it afflicts even Peggy.  Also, it’s not unreasonable to want love and commitment.  We’re supposed, I believe, to be appalled that Peggy can’t have it all because most men she encounters are small-minded.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  12:27 PM

Just to clarify, I mean I hope Joan’s there because she’s quick with a vase, not because she needs to hear any slut-shaming.  And because I think that Joan and Peggy have the potential to be better friends for each other than just about anyone else they know, and it would be a good opportunity to draw them together.

Comment #12: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/02  at  12:36 PM

“I think right now the takeaway is the pressure to get married is so severe that it afflicts even Peggy.”

I’m with you there.  She said as much when she said she doesn’t want to spend New Year’s Eve alone.  Agree with the nasty scene prognostication, too.  It will be Pete who spills or, in a surprise twist, Don.  Don was the one to whom the BF claimed to be a fiance.  Don knows about Peggy’s baby.  Don, the ever reticent, had to spill his guts to Advertising Age; some folks never talk because they can’t stop once they start.  Don spilling the beans would be much more of a plot enhancer than Pete, who we already know is something of a jerk.

Comment #13: DBK  on  08/02  at  12:36 PM

What does “jez jelus” mean?

Comment #14: Binx  on  08/02  at  12:40 PM

I’m with Binx.  You lost me with that one.

Comment #15: B405  on  08/02  at  12:41 PM

Just jealous.

Comment #16: JennyLI  on  08/02  at  12:42 PM

aaaah. Thanks.

Comment #17: Binx  on  08/02  at  12:42 PM

Blue Jean, I think Peggy’s speaking a straight up exposition of her advertising philosophy.  Not that old ladies can’t look good, but more that this isn’t what goes into ads now.

I hope you’re right, Amanda.  Of course, Peggy has achieved her position with her brains and her talent, not her looks, so perhaps she doesn’t think looks matter as much as they usually do for women, especially for that time.

Still, that line is a subtle reiteration on your post’s theme. If a woman’s primary importance is her looks, and her looks are considered gone when she’s old (like 30), then what importance does she have?

There’s another reiteration during the planning scene, where Roger tells Joan to upgrade the Christmas party from “convalescent home” to “Roman orgy”. She’s making all these cool, clever arrangements to meet his goal, while his main contribution is to tell her to “wear that sexy red dress with the bow on the back, the one that make you look like a Christmas present.”  Yeah, it’s a compliment, but it could be a subtle put down as well, as if he’s saying “No matter how smart and how good you are at your job, Joan, you’re still a decorative object.”

Comment #18: Blue Jean  on  08/02  at  12:42 PM

Just jealous. Say it out loud.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  12:43 PM

Yeah, I think Peggy’s just thinking strictly in terms of advertising beauty products.  She’s basically making the aspirational argument in advertising vs. Freddy’s threatening one.  Her theory is you show pictures of an ideal and let the audience fall in love with those images and therefore your product.  His theory is that you threaten women openly and spell out consequences if they don’t use your product.  The shift in strategies is hinted at in the discussion of feminine hygiene ads, too.  A little less “use this or your husband will abandon you for a younger woman!” and a little more pictures of women in expensive white gowns next to the word “Modess”.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  12:47 PM

If you’re curious and have the time, I recommend sifting through this website.

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/adaccess/

It really shows the shift towards more subtle forms of persuasion in advertising over the decades.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  12:49 PM

Freddy Rumsen sounded like he could have an op-ed column in the nytimes when he was giving Peggy advice. You can’t do anything or he won’t respect you.

I hate the guy from Lucky Strike. Hate.

Comment #22: pharmakos  on  08/02  at  12:54 PM

Of course, the answer to the “how could anyone get any work done?” question also rests on the legions of secretaries, sleeping car porters (OK, that’s anachronistic by then) and poorly-paid, insecurely-tenured everybody who wasn’t a white guy. Which takes you back to the exploitation thing from the other side. “... in high heels and backwards.”

Comment #23: paul  on  08/02  at  12:56 PM

Thanks for the link, Amanda!  It looks fascinating.

Comment #24: Blue Jean  on  08/02  at  01:00 PM

Lucky Strike guy is Satan.  I think he’s there to show parallels in coercion, but being forced to wear a Santa suit and have people sit on your lap seems less humiliating and revolting than being forced to sleep with someone to keep your job.

Comment #25: DBK  on  08/02  at  01:07 PM

Roiphe is ridiculous.  There was a running theme in the show about how dangerous men were with power, and how they put everyone else in compromised positions - from Alison, Don’s secretary, to Lee Gardner (is that his last name?) the Lucky Strike guy, viciously humiliating Roger with the Santa suit and flirting with Roger’s wife.  This IS NOT a precursor to the a hippie revolution, where they were just cooler and less uptight than we are - Joan is wound TIGHT, and that is how she has survived.  Peggy has to work twice as hard to be taken seriously - she is FAR better than Freddy, but will never be respected as much.  There aren’t moments of momentary bliss and spontaneity in Mad Men, there are moments of people with power using it against the less powerful.

I would like to NOT go back to that, thanks.  Feeling forced to sleep with my desperate boss so I don’t lose my job is not a past I am going to pine over.

Comment #26: Gayle Force  on  08/02  at  01:16 PM

Ah, if only Roiphe would read Slavoj Zizek…

Comment #27: Catullus  on  08/02  at  01:16 PM

Although I’m influenced by my own experiences, I suspect the demographics of drinking has changed since the mid-sixties, when women like my mother would have one whiskey sour per week when she went out with the girls, while the guy next door would have a six-pack of beer each evening. (My dad was a teetotaler.) Women did not go to the tavern and spend their evenings drinking, like a lot of guys did in my neighborhood growing up. While there may have been some secret female drinking going on, fathers of friends of mine died from cirrhosis while no woman I’ve known ever did. Businessmen drank, and drank hard, with their customers and vendors; secretaries might have a single banana daiquiri.

Now I think more people of both sexes drink moderately, rather than something like the 80:20 rule prevailing. (Twenty percent of the drinkers consuming eighty percent of the booze.)

Comment #28: Hector B.  on  08/02  at  01:20 PM

DBK #25 - Lucky Strike guy is Satan.  I think he’s there to show parallels in coercion…


Roiphe apparently is one among the legions of people that don’t recognize the parallels that the writers of the show obviously put in to show what power and coercion and double standards look like to people like her who don’t get it. I didn’t read her article, but I suppose she empathizes more with Roger being forced to put on the Santa suit than with any of the women and minorities on the show (or IRL) who are regularly expected to compromise their dignity in worse ways to survive that world.

I’m glad it’s more apparent this season what a self-loathing, self-destructive, impulsive mess Don is, but I fear many viewers will stick to their simplistic ideas about how awesome it is that he gets a lot of tail.

Comment #29: snobographer  on  08/02  at  02:03 PM

snobographer, Mad Men is a prime example of Truffaut’s belief that using visual media as a moralizing force is often an excercise in futitlity because what you are trying to denounce often ends up looking glamorous. Apocalypse Now is another example. Sometimes, people just view things at a shallow level. They look at Mad Men and see a bunch of white men get lucky with women and drink a lot of alcohol while missing the large point about how horrible this was not only for women and minorities but for the Mad Men themselves in many ways. Whats really bad about this is that the Mad Men production team aren’t particulary subtle and it really shouldn’t be that hard to miss the point.

  On different sexual systems, the current system of youthful experimentation with latter marriage is much better than the previous system but it would be nice if people remember that not everybody gets to enjoy the youth experimentation part, in fact a lot of us miss out on it entirely. I would have liked to have experienced some of the young love and lust that people gushed about. At the very least, I’d appreciate if people were less in my face about how wonderful it is.

Comment #30: Lee  on  08/02  at  02:17 PM

Hector, I think you’re a bit off in your assessment of how much of the drinking was being done by women.  My mom was born in 1922.  She tells stories of being young and sneaking bottles in places.  Oh, and then the drinking during wartime!  She met my dad (her 2nd husband) in a neighborhood tavern around 1960, introduced by a mutual friend.  And she was a perfectly “respectable,” “normal” young woman, not remotely any kind of anomaly for her times.

Comment #31: CalliopeJane  on  08/02  at  02:17 PM

I remember my parents’ parties in the 60s.  Whiskey sours were the big drink then.  The moms drank right alongside the dads and held their own.  (I was the little kid who had to go to bed early on those nights, but used to sneak out and watch the action from a hiding place).

Comment #32: DBK  on  08/02  at  02:26 PM

Lee, if all discourse were conducted to avoid provoking jealousy, we couldn’t discuss pleasure or joy at all.  Or warm beds or having roofs over our head.  Someone, somewhere is always missing out.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  02:39 PM

Whats really bad about this is that the Mad Men production team aren’t particulary subtle and it really shouldn’t be that hard to miss the point.

I think it was Amanda who once said something about not needing giant arrows to point out “this is bad,” but really the writers come this close to providing those giant arrows and people still don’t get it. Lee Garner is totally one of those giant arrows.

Comment #34: snobographer  on  08/02  at  02:52 PM

“We’ve got girls, games, and gifts.”

Girls=games=gifts.

Too bad Lee Garner Junior doesn’t want the first, and his frustration in the closet will be acted out through bullying with games and gifts.

But equating girls with games and gifts is a given in that period.

The attitude remained the same ten years later, when I lived in New York, however, finally butting up against new feminist perspective.

While working for a temp agency, I encountered a creepy old boss who tried to massage my neck and shoulders while I was typing.

When I complained to the temp agency and refused to go back, they replied, “But most of the girls like it!”

Yeah, right. Which is why they had to send in yet another a new victim—me—without warning that the boss would put his hands on her.

By no means the first, last or worst example of sexual harassment on the job that I’d live through in that decade, but the consciousness that I didn’t have to put up with that crap, that I wasn’t a party favor, helped me fend it off.

There’s a reason we have sexual harassment laws now and not then: it would take the women’s liberation movement to turn the personal into the political.

Comment #35: judybrowni  on  08/02  at  03:06 PM

This particular episode had unsubtle jabs all over it, especially with the grousing about the evils of Medicare.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  03:16 PM

Lee it’s important to remember that everyone is lacking something and not all great sex takes place in one’s youth.  I’ve known people, and quite a few of them, who tell me their best sex happened much later.  Some say in their 50’s! when they fell head over heals for a second time.  ANd that is not being condescending at all.  It’s completely true.

And as Amanda said, we couldn’t even talk about our homes if that were the criteria.  Though, I wonder if others have been a lot more careful about things like that since the great recession?  I know that I have noticed some blowback on my own friend’s fb pages.  One of my friend’s loves to post status updates of when she’s shopping for the day.  And I’ve definitely seen blowback from people who are now hurting, and I’ve seen her cut way back on that.  I myself didn’t mention to one of my best friends when I bought a new car.  She lives in the city, I live on LI and she’s in a terrible financial position this past year or two.  I waited till she was in it one day, and then just waived it off as old news.

Comment #37: JennyLI  on  08/02  at  03:21 PM

But it may be only to the politically (and historically) informed that the jab at Medicare may seem unsubtle…

Historically accurate it is, and I think of a piece with the Mad Men ethos.

Comment #38: judybrowni  on  08/02  at  03:22 PM

But even if they’re uninformed historically, they’d have to have been in a coma not have heard similar outrageous claims about Obama’s health care plan, or “Obamacare”.  I think most got it.  It’s exactly what Digby always writes about; the teabaggers aren’t anything new.  That was them then, and we see what they are now.  They’re the same people.  Everything the media tries to turn the tea party into something new, some new so-called “populist” (LOL) grass roots movement, it’s good to drive that home.  They’re not new.  And they’re not populists.  THey’re the right wing and they’ve been wrong on every single issue all along.  THey were wrong on Medicare.  They were wrong on civil rights.  They’re wrong today on gay rights.  They’re wrong today on universal health care.

I don’t think you could miss it, but maybe I am being too optimistic.

Comment #39: JennyLI  on  08/02  at  03:32 PM

Angl, I don’t know if it’s the quality of the sex that’s in question—-a lot of adulterous affairs are bad sex—-but the feeling that you know what’s out there and what you may or may not be missing. 

I think the burden of handling pangs of envy when confronted with fairly normal disclosure of the non-bragging sort lies with the person experiencing the pangs.  If a friend of mine has something new and she mentions it without it being all like, “Nyah nyah I can shop and others can’t”—-if her purpose is to say, “Look, I have something new!”—-then any pangs of envy I feel are mine and mine alone to handle.  She owes nothing.  Pangs of envy experienced because you witness people in love, people that are happy, people who have exciting hobbies, people that know things?  If you don’t learn to handle it on your own, I don’t think other people shutting up will fix it.

Comment #40: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  03:38 PM

Angl, I think she meant it may seem unsubtle to people who don’t know that the hysteria over health care reform recycled the exact same arguments that the hysteria over Medicare used.  It’s accurate, but I can see how as a narrative device it felt a teeny bit on the nose.

Comment #41: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  03:40 PM

I don’t think she’s painting this long, rosy story of purity for her boyfriend (what’s his name?) I think she’s just letting him assume she’s a virgin, by not bringing up anything about Pete or Duck.

If you look at women’s sex advice manuals of the period, that’s very much what they were told to say - if you’re not a virgin, don’t say so, just smile mysteriously and let him assume what he wants to assume.

Comment #42: Nineveh  on  08/02  at  03:52 PM

@ #41, ohhh, I see what you are saying now. Yeah, I guess there are a lot of people who don’t know that the health care reform crazy mirrored the debate around Medicare.

“but the feeling that you know what’s out there and what you may or may not be missing.”

Yes, that must be difficult and I can see it leading to adultry and divorce.

Comment #43: JennyLI  on  08/02  at  03:57 PM

Why’s Peggy pretending to be a virgin at all though? Is she hoping this guy will marry her? I can understand her feeling pressure to get married and feeling lonely around the holidays, but she could do so much better than that guy.

Comment #44: snobographer  on  08/02  at  04:00 PM

I don’t think she’s aggressively pretending anything.  She just let it be assumed.  We don’t see her playing along more than murmuring.  It’s passively pretending to be a virgin.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  04:45 PM

but she could do so much better than that guy.

Can she, though?  I don’t see the much better guy lying in wait.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  04:46 PM

For once, she does mention a female writer of the era, instead of sticking to her usual male-centric literary name-dropping.  But all she can glean from Mary McCarthy is that she drank a lot and slept around.  Not a whiff of a mention of McCarthy’s penetrating insights into how badly women especially were served by 60s style repression/release.

I went to grad school with Roiphe (fwiw, she was a year or so behind me and in a different department) and if memory serves Mary McCarthy was a major figure in her PhD dissertation, which is on literature and psychoanalysis in mid-20C America. 

Like others above, I tend to reflexively avoid reading anything that bears her byline.  Thanks for reading this one so we don’t have to, Amanda!

Comment #47: Ben Alpers  on  08/02  at  05:13 PM

Ah, Roiphie’s just performing her usual song and dance meant to assure the white men at the Times, that yes! things were so much better back when you guys could rape and discriminate and booze it up with nary a word of criticism.

And your underlings long to go back to that fairy tale existence, as much as you!

It’s why she was hired, and why she’s kept on as their house niggah.

Comment #48: judybrowni  on  08/02  at  05:38 PM

@45&46;- Yeah I think she’s letting him assume she’s a virgin to keep his nagging her for sex somewhat at bay, plus maybe she’s wanting something more than a strictly-sex fling, like she’s had so far, and feels celibacy is a way to get that. Or she just feels like being celibate for a while. But I just don’t see why she’s with this guy at all. He’s a douche. Yeah all the guys on the show are douches to varying extents, but I thought Duck, for his issues, at least respected her as an individual. Smitty was kind of cute and got her jokes and expressed an interest in her. Her new illustrator is really cute, but she probably wouldn’t want to get involved with a coworker. Hell that one-night-stand guy from the bar was better than this boyfriend. I really dislike him. He’s reminding me of Joan’s husband. He’d probably even freak out if she tried to get on top.

Comment #49: snobographer  on  08/02  at  05:38 PM

For reference, here’s a link to a review of Roiphe’s book, a defense of rape culture, that likely served as her audition for her role at the Times.:

http://www.interactivetheatre.org/resc/notbadsex.html

Comment #50: judybrowni  on  08/02  at  06:01 PM

I can’t recall but was the woman who was doing the survey and picthing the consumer research company in last night’s show, Dr. Faye Miller, in the show before?
I think that her character is fascinating. She’s one of the few people who can call it like it is but puts up with a lot of shit in the name of going along to get along/ahead.
I’m guessing she wasn’t or I would have remembered her.

I’m pretty annoyed that Freddie is back. I never liked that guy. Now that he’s sober I can’t really say it was because he was such a lush. He’s a dick too.

Comment #51: Danica Lefse Queen  on  08/02  at  06:25 PM

Remember that Lee Garner, Jr. (Lucky Strike( guy was also the one who got Salvatore fired.
Pure evil.

Comment #52: Danica Lefse Queen  on  08/02  at  06:29 PM

This Atlantic assessment of last night’s episode is more on the mark than Roiphe:
Mad Men’s Very Modern Sexism Problem.

http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2010/08/mad-mens-very-modern-sexism-problem/60788/

Comment #53: judybrowni  on  08/02  at  06:57 PM

...that’s a tougher row to hoe.

My first read on that was “Rowe to ho.”

Comment #54: Eric_RoM  on  08/02  at  06:59 PM

...some new thing that precluded the hippie rebellion.

“Precluded”??  Hardly.

Comment #55: Eric_RoM  on  08/02  at  07:00 PM

As soon as I read that piece by Roiphe, I thought, “How long before Amanda Marcotte puts up a critique/response?  I’d like to see what she thinks.”  Though I knew Amanda - rightly so - wouldn’t care much for it.

On an admittedly more superficial level, it looks like Mad Men is moving pretty quickly into 1965 now, and it seems that in terms of interior design, fashion, etc., we’ll be seeing more Swinging 60s and less Cool 60s.  I like the cool better, but that’s just me.

Comment #56: Linnaeus  on  08/02  at  07:16 PM

snobographer at 34: Many people do not like anything that is didactic in their entertainment. For many this dislike is so strong that they ignore any sort of message the tv show, movie, book, play, or whatever has. Brecht was a perpetual victim of this and he wrote some of the most blunt Communist entertainment possibly. I’m not a Communist but it takes a very special type of stupidity to miss the point of a Brecht play. Of course, Brecht also wanted his audiences to find his places entertaining and fun to, so that might have been a problem.

  Mad Men is a bit more subtle with its aesop than Brecht but its not that subtle.

Comment #57: Lee  on  08/02  at  07:33 PM

I refudiate that phrase.

Comment #58: B405  on  08/02  at  08:29 PM

I will say this in Roiphe’s favor: She does do a neat trick, turning inside out the usual mainstream media assumption that the East Coast elite aren’t “Real Americans”, and replacing it with the assumption that they are the only real Americans.

But isn’t that pretty much all the NYT ever does? I’m not sure I’d give her much credit for this ‘trick’. It’s probably in their style sheet.

Comment #59: mythago  on  08/03  at  12:07 AM

Amanda, one consideration is that more is known about the deleterious effects of excessive alcohol consumption then back in the era of Mad Men.

It wasn’t until the late 60s that studies using baboons(your tax dollars at work, folks, turning surly primates into surlier drunks, is this a great country or what?) demonstrated that some of the effects of malnourishment associated with chronic alcoholism couldn’t be reversed with the proper diet because the effects were due more to liver damage than lack of nutrients in the first place.

Also, the therapeutic approach to alcoholism was yet to be popularized outside of AA.

I remember a Perry Mason episode where Mason discovered that someone who was in the same AA group as his client wasn’t an alcoholic but was in the group for his own nefarious purposes, because he saw the guy drink moderately, and everyone at that time ‘knew’ that alcoholics couldn’t drink moderately, thus the ‘buddy’ wasn’t an alcoholic.

I would have liked to have experienced some of the young love and lust that people gushed about

You also missed out on rejection, jealousy, self-doubt about anyone finding you attractive knowing how to date but no clue as to how to go beyond that state of the game, etc.

Also, FWIW, traditional Chinese Taoist medicine teaches that teenagers should be fucking like 50 year olds(not short and sweet, taking ones time) and 50 year olds should be fucking like teenagers(Every chance they get grin  ).

Comment #60: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/03  at  12:50 AM

This particular episode had unsubtle jabs all over it, especially with the grousing about the evils of Medicare.
Comment #36: Amanda Marcott

I was lurking the Mad Men blogs on AMC’s site and saw a couple commenters who were really pissed off about that.
Paraphrasing: “This show isn’t even worth watching anymore if you’re going to make stupid political statements!”

One was complaining that it was out of character for Roger Sterling to not stand up to Lee Garner.

I don’t know what these people think they’re watching.

Comment #61: snobographer  on  08/03  at  01:12 AM

It really shows the shift towards more subtle forms of persuasion in advertising over the decades.

You’re right on there. Bert’s psychologist pal and his protege are there to show the mechanics behind that shift (well, that and to provide an interesting new ... “conquest”(?) ... for Don). In the 4th Purpose Culture, it’s cookies for every consumer/human resource who performs like a good doggie! Well, everyone except the psychopaths and/or shareholder class who, gauche as it is to say aloud, own the cookies to begin with, and the psychologists who’ll be paid to dole them out on an industrial scale:

Atherton: They are children, and they can’t accept the fact that others have to make decisions for them.

Lane: So we are not part of this ‘herd’ you’re talking about.

Atherton: You’re from Great Britain. I think you’d be familiar with the perils of socialism.

Bert [the Ayn Rand fan]: Civil rights is the beginning of a slippery slope.

Atherton [apparently a fellow Rand fan, and, it would seem, a wartime colleague of Bert’s—irony]: If they pass Medicare, they won’t stop until they ban personal property.

“Did you enjoy ze Fuhrer’s birthday?” indeed.

It seems the only person prostituting herself honestly and with self-awareness was the hooker in the last episode—cash on the table, work-life balance, and no bloody Santa suit.

if all discourse were conducted to avoid provoking jealousy, we couldn’t discuss pleasure or joy at all.  Or warm beds or having roofs over our head.  Someone, somewhere is always missing out.

The same thing goes toward discussing the negative, I’d add. One thing I liked about this episode was that, despite the widely varying nature of the “have a cookie” humiliations, all the actors had a chance to show their equally pained reactions before jumping up on their hind legs or refusing the request. For most of us, our own problems are certainly petty in comparison to those of others. But they are our own problems and pain is pain.

Mad Men is a bit more subtle with its aesop than Brecht but its not that subtle.

Yeah, I keep trying to tell people something like that, but all I hear from a lot of them is “nothing happens” or “it’s a soap opera” or “looka the cool clothes and martinis and smoking!” On the other hand, there are discussions like this on the Web and in the press.

In other words, the writers and show runner find a pretty good balance between Western Union and entertainment. What’s unsubtle to us here seems imperceptible to an equal number of people who like the show.

Comment #62: Gracchus.  on  08/03  at  02:30 AM

I remember that discussion, and the talk about “You’re from Great Britain.  I think you’d be familiar with the perils of socialism.”  What perils?  It was a British company that bought the original Sterling/ Cooper, and unless I’m missing out on some very important history, GB still has private property, infrastructure, all the fun things of a modern society (which I’m afraid that the US is going to lose soon if we don’t start working on it). 

What the heck was he talking about?  What are people talking about when they say it now?

Comment #63: Antigone  on  08/03  at  03:01 AM

#63

It’s the cw passed down from the top 2% who can afford to buy political candidates and fund red-scare propaganda campaigns that essentially frame somebody like Larry Ellison as a “small business owner.”

Comment #64: snobographer  on  08/03  at  05:07 AM

Watched it last night. It was good. Not as good as the first episode, but it always takes the season an episode or two to develop.

Gracchus—the cookie thing was especially bitter for me, particularly when I worked for a “non-profit” that made millions of dollars and when they hiked our health care rates by 30%, they made it up to us by yes—giving everyone a stale, inedible cookie painted up with the company colors.

I work for an employee-owned company now. smile

The episode was interesting. Christmas lights were not at all flattering to Don and Roger—Don is coming across as a bit of a desperate old lech: he’s been rejected this season by his date in the first episode, and then the psychologist in this episode, and the only time he’s been able to get a woman to sleep with him was when he exerted blunt male privilege.

And yeah—anyone who claims that Roger would have stood up to the Lucky Strike guy needs to just stop watching the show so that the reality of the characters doesn’t interfere with the bad fanfic going on in their imagination.

What did people make of Glen trashing the house? Was his motivation only that he wanted to help Sally escape the house she hated, or was he also pissed off at Betty? Or is he just a pre-teen psychopath?

Comment #65: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/03  at  09:11 AM

What the heck was he talking about?  What are people talking about when they say it now?

Basically the NHS and other post-war Atlee schemes, or at least the BS version painted by a collection of Cold Warriors, Birchers, Randites, Libertarians and Teabaggers from the 1950s to the present. Then as now, when they talk about “socialism” they might just as easily be referring to Keynesian economics (corporate welfare excepted, natch).

The funny thing is, when he said “You’re from Great Britain…” I thought the follow-up would be something about the class system, where everyone knows their place. Silly me, though—such conversations are verboten in the U.S.

What did people make of Glen trashing the house? Was his motivation only that he wanted to help Sally escape the house she hated, or was he also pissed off at Betty? Or is he just a pre-teen psychopath?

I’ll take answer D: All of the Above. The boy has the makings of a fine Weatherman.

The inclusion of a dim-witted toady was a nice touch.

Comment #66: Gracchus.  on  08/03  at  10:00 AM

Though, I wonder if others have been a lot more careful about things like that since the great recession?  I know that I have noticed some blowback on my own friend’s fb pages.  One of my friend’s loves to post status updates of when she’s shopping for the day.  And I’ve definitely seen blowback from people who are now hurting, and I’ve seen her cut way back on that.  I myself didn’t mention to one of my best friends when I bought a new car.  She lives in the city, I live on LI and she’s in a terrible financial position this past year or two.  I waited till she was in it one day, and then just waived it off as old news.

I try to passively gauge where other people are first economically/financially before disclosing what I purchased, especially if it is not an immediate necessity such as work clothes or computers/related items due to my profession.  I certainly won’t be discussing expensive luxuries I have such as the electric guitar and amplifier in my apartment as I am not a professional-level musician who can justify such nice musical equipment.  Oftentimes, someone else or I will change the topic to something that’s not as related to buying things as that tends to be too painful for many…especially in this economy. 

IME, part of showing consideration is to gauge whether it is the time and place to be discuss such things…and the recession combined with the fact most friends and I aren’t that big on consumerism means that it is usually not a great time and place. 

Then again, another part of this was how this reminds me of mostly male co-workers who consumed to such excess that they ended up in financial trouble while accusing me of being “cheap” for not being extravagantly wasteful by replacing my furniture, electronics, etc every 3-6 months as they did.

Comment #67: exholt  on  08/03  at  10:17 AM

Actually, the screwing around goes back a lot farther. The 1930s were pretty hot if my father’s accounts are accurate, and we can all thank technology, latex condoms - aka rubbers - for the great sexual revolution of the 1930s. It wasn’t until the 1950s that marriage became the big thing again. That was one reason for the revolution in the 1960s and 1970s. The big changes came with The Great War with respectable women showing their knees in public for the first time in maybe 1500 years and demanding the right to vote. 1918 changed everything.

Mad Men is definitely about sex and power, but it’s also about the advertising business. It went through big changes in the 1960s, and it wasn’t just television. The entire way the business worked changed. The whore masters with their little black books of party girls were replaced with more effective and creative copy writing and visuals. The big assembly line “creative” departments were replaced with smaller project oriented teams. Read Della Femina’s “From Those Wonderful Folks Who Brought You Pearl Harbor” for a fairly good account. Della Femina, who formed his agency in the 60s, joked that each group in the advertising business was sure that some other group was having all the sex, particularly with the female models, but as he points out, the models are awfully neurotic. They make their living based on their looks, so they have to be very careful, and they compete with other lots of other good looking models and get told “no, you aren’t good looking enough” several times each work day. You’re the best looking girl, or guy for that matter, in your high school, and you get told that ten or twenty times a week. We haven’t seen that on Mad Men yet.

I’ve never found Mad Men to be particularly glamorous. Anyone who does is pretty credulous which sort of explains Roiphe’s piece. Even the guys don’t seem to enjoying themselves. Screwing around and drinking are presented as something one does to relieve the tedium. Even in the 60s we knew that, and that’s why there were so many changes in the 60s.

Don Draper always struck me as a chameleon who used his incredible creativity to change with the times. He’s not even Don Draper. He’s sort of a mirror. Remember, he’s an ad man, and he reinvents himself just as he reinvents the products he sells. But then, isn’t life about inventing and reinventing oneself? He’s just starting to notice world changing around him. I’m curious to see what his mirror shows.

Comment #68: Kaleberg  on  08/03  at  02:02 PM

Re: #67:

I wish there was more people online being less idiotic.  The majority of my friends are not doing well (combination bad economy, student debt, and just plain being young).  We were discussing what we would do with a 1000 dollars a day, and one of my aunts had the audacity to claim that 356,000 dollars a year “isn’t that much money”.  The TITHE of that money is more than what my husband and I make in a year.

It was incredibly insulting, and pissed me off to no end.

Comment #69: Antigone  on  08/03  at  03:55 PM

I think as far as Peggy’s faux virginity, it may be mostly a sin of omission.  I don’t think she’s painting this long, rosy story of purity for her boyfriend (what’s his name?) I think she’s just letting him assume she’s a virgin, by not bringing up anything about Pete or Duck.

I tend to go with the sin of omission as well, with a little Draper twist thrown in. In the last episode, when Don complained that the Ad Age reporter didn’t check his facts Roger responds “You didn’t give him any facts. He had to make assumptions.”

That tactic may have backfired for Don, but it worked for her with her BF, who seems to have gotten his sexual experience from Swedish “educational” books and films. She’s definitely learning from her mentor, and he apparently appreciates that (now he’s calling her “sweetheart”).

I really like how they drop these little hints and call-backs and cultural touches to shade out the characters, even the secondary ones. For example, they’re building a fascinating history for Bert Cooper just by showing his Objectivism (no doubt intertwined with anti-Communism), his taste in art and culture (traditional Japanese and modern minimalism) and now the implication of his involvement with Atherton in wartime and post-war propaganda or psy-ops.

Comment #70: Gracchus.  on  08/03  at  05:49 PM

The funny thing is, when he said “You’re from Great Britain…” I thought the follow-up would be something about the class system, where everyone knows their place. Silly me, though—such conversations are verboten in the U.S.

Comment #66: Gracchus

There’s been some interesting hints towards Lane’s class-status in that regard. My understanding of how classism works in the UK is limited, but Lane obviously didn’t go to a “good” enough school or come from a “good” enough family. That’s why Sinjin and his sidekick kept treating him like an expendable cog no matter how well he did his job; he wasn’t One Of Them, so the success they would allow him was strictly limited.
It’s also why he bristled at the classist rants from Cooper and his buddies.

See? I didn’t get it at first, but the Giant Arrows pointed the way!

I didn’t like Lane much initially, but he’s grown on me. I wonder what happened to his wife. She was an asshole.

Comment #71: snobographer  on  08/03  at  08:35 PM

I wish there was more people online being less idiotic.  The majority of my friends are not doing well (combination bad economy, student debt, and just plain being young).  We were discussing what we would do with a 1000 dollars a day, and one of my aunts had the audacity to claim that 356,000 dollars a year “isn’t that much money”.  The TITHE of that money is more than what my husband and I make in a year.

It was incredibly insulting, and pissed me off to no end.

Interestingly, I still have trouble visualizing how people can squander trust funds of that size and much much more within 5 or even 2 years even though I’ve known plenty of classmates and colleagues at work who did just that.  Then again, I do know of acquaintances who spent at least $10,000/week on clothing shopping sprees in Paris every weekend during their college years….and contrary to popular stereotypes…there were more than a few dudes who were part of this group…..

People who say large amounts of money such as $356,000 is not a lot of money IME tend to be the very squanderer types I’ve encountered…or wannabe pretenders who want to make themselves seem wealthier than they actually are….and are probably wallowing deep in debt to maintain that facade.

Comment #72: exholt  on  08/03  at  09:29 PM

exholt, it’s all relative.  It has to do with expenses and expectations.  If you are living in a one room apartment in a not so nice neighborhood, $356,00/yr is a LOT of money.  If you have a home in a nice New Jersey ‘burb that you bought in 2004 and your mortgage is around $350,000 and your property taxes are $12,000/yr, then it is a lot less because you’re paying around $3500 a month just for the house.  Maybe your kids are in private school and that’s $30,000 a year each for the two future Masters of the Universe.  Nothing but the best for the kids, even though being in that particular suburb provides top notch schools.  Vacations, lawn service, housekeeper.  $1,000 a day isn’t much at that point, even if your taxes leave you with $200,000 in sendable income.  Health insurance is costing you a thousand a month if you have your own business.  It adds up.  And those people aren’t evil.  Can you blame them for thinking, “I make X, so I should be living an X lifestyle”?

I don’t make that much, but I make a good living, as does my wife.  We make a lot of room for retirement savings and whatever is left is what we live on.  We put the savings part first and not the spending, but that’s just us.  We have wealthier friends who do complain about how their money doesn’t go very far, but they also have the McMansion in the good suburb and a home at the beach and two kids in college and one big, gorgeous Mercedez SUV and the other car is a BMW and so on.  No, that kind of money doesn’t go too far if you spend it on big ticket items.

Comment #73: DBK  on  08/04  at  10:44 AM

“even if your taxes leave you with $200,000 in sendable income”

That’s “spendable” income, not “sendable”.

Damn fingers.

Comment #74: DBK  on  08/04  at  11:05 AM

If you have a home in a nice New Jersey ‘burb that you bought in 2004 and your mortgage is around $350,000 and your property taxes are $12,000/yr, then it is a lot less because you’re paying around $3500 a month just for the house.

Funny as I do have relatives who live in an upper-middle class New Jersey suburb with such property taxes.  Only thing was they managed to buy in 20-30 years ago despite being immigrants starting out, the fact that town was already expensive back then, and all of their kids attended the excellent local public high school.  Just had a conversation about this topic with my uncle this past weekend and while he grouses about the taxes…..his annual living expenses are nowhere near the figures you cited….and he’s no scrooge regarding his own lifestyle nor those of his children/grandchildren, extended family, and his community. 

Maybe your kids are in private school and that’s $30,000 a year each for the two future Masters of the Universe.  Nothing but the best for the kids, even though being in that particular suburb provides top notch schools.

If only the clueless US upper/upper-middle class parents realized that:

1. Even the best private schools is only beneficial if the parent(s) understand that the student has the willingness to take full advantage of its offerings.  W and a few older cousins especially one who attended the rival private school to President Obama’s alma mater are living proof that if the student is crappy and has a poor attitude towards learning….it is a complete waste…..

2. There are plenty of crappy private schools in the US which charge $20k-$30K+ per year and graduate students who aren’t fully prepared for the rigors of a standard college curriculum…especially at the Ivy/Ivy-level colleges as I’ve found as a well-paid academic tutor during my undergrad and post-college years as a moonlighter in the greater Boston area.  I’m still stunned there’s at least one expensive private school in the US which allows students to graduate with only 2-3 years of “rocks for jocks” type non-lab science courses, 3 years of history/social studies, math preparation not adequately covering geometry/trigonometry…much less pre-calculus, and atrociously poor writing skills…..and I do not consider my writing to be up to what I thought were college-level standards by any means….

Comment #75: exholt  on  08/04  at  11:23 PM

exholt:  “Even the best private schools is only beneficial if the parent(s) understand that the student has the willingness to take full advantage of its offerings.  W and a few older cousins especially one who attended the rival private school to President Obama’s alma mater are living proof that if the student is crappy and has a poor attitude towards learning….it is a complete waste….. “

Yeah, your child becoming President, that was a waste of school.  Not everyone thinks of a moron in a high position as a failure.

You might spend the money to put your kids in a private school so they can hang out with other kids who have money, so when it comes time to get a job, the easy but lucrative job for “stupid” people who only took “rocks for jocks” goes to the rich friend, not the poor kid who’s a nobody.  It’s “affirmative action” for wealthy people.

Your example of someone who bought into a good neighborhood 30 years ago is great—for those who were able to do that.  People who have 14 year old kids may have been 14 themselves 30 years ago, or even 20 years ago.  Not everyone can tell what’s going to do well. 

It seems you’re building your dream world on a meritocracy of intelligence, rather than money.  Neither is particularly friendly to people who didn’t get a lot of either at birth.  Some people, if they work really really hard, still end up failing a lot of classes and just only make it out of high school, or don’t even get that far.  They still have human worth.

And there’s nothing wrong with not wanting to work like a dog, either.  Life is to be lived, not suffered through.

Comment #76: oldfeminist  on  08/07  at  06:29 PM
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