Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Wingnut bullies on parade Previous entry: Sex work isn’t immune to urban legends

“Man pants” screwing up everything for everyone

The Name It, Change It campaign has been a big deal this election season, helped in no small part because feminist-minded folks are fed up with sexist attacks on female candidates.  But Amanda Hess has an interesting take on the whole issue today that’s worth discussing.  Not to get all “what about the menz?!” on you, but it’s an important question.  What about sexist attacks on men?

The WaPo has put together a compendium of sexist attacks on male candidates this election, some from female candidates happy to play the “mean girl” role, and some from male candidates channeling their own junior high school homosocial shaming tactics.  Male candidates and female candidates who get this kind of sexist shaming tend to be getting the same flavor—-apparently, a favorite way to attack both men and women is to feminize them.  Women are shamed for doing female-identified things like wearing high heels or having breasts, or they’re told to get back in the kitchen or they have their sexuality used against them.  Male candidates get feminized, too—-told to “man up”, that they don’t have “cojones”, or to “get your man pants on”. 

Amanda interviewed Siobhan “Sam” Bennett, the president of the Women’s Campaign Forum, and she said this:

What Bennett does know is that accusations of deficient manliness “are rooted in a tradition of sexism against women” in politics, she says, “whether a woman lobs it at a man, a man lobs it at a woman, or a man lobs it at a man.” When a candidate infers that manliness is a requirement for political office, female politicians everywhere suffer a hit. “It’s the same woman-bashing form of sexism, just sliced a different way,” Bennett says.

And when men are attacked in a misogynist way, more targeted sexist attacks against women are allowed to thrive. “It reinforces the normalization of this way of talking, and that’s our big enemy,” Bennett says. “It definitely hurts women candidates, no matter who’s throwing it around.”

It’s bad for the candidates that suffer it, bad for other candidates (especially female candidates), and frankly it’s just bad for our democracy.  This election is hardly an outlier.  For my entire lifetime, achieving some level of projected manliness has been considered an important attribute in a candidate.  It’s basically making all stupider every election season.  There is no reason that a man’s ability to wear a cowboy hat or a jumpsuit should make him a better leader.  And yes, the more that “manliness” is considered a critical character trait of politicians, the more women will be shut out.  Or to be more specific, it’s not that women can’t run or win, it’s just that they always have to walk this tightrope between appearing feminine but not too feminine, acting tough but not too tough, etc.  It’s too much of a balancing act.  Even right wing women pulling the “mama grizzlies” thing, where they get their girl points by dressing up but get their man points by being assholes mostly fail at this balancing act.

“Manliness” as a concept is mostly toxic in our culture, especially when someone’s trying to be a leader in a democratic society.  You get man points by being intolerant, ignorant, and unsympathetic, as well as by wearing a bunch of silly costumes.  The reason right wingers routinely attack Democrats for lack of manliness is that liberalism on any level is viewed as permanently unmanly—-having a heart, reading books, and getting along with others are all considered poisonous and feminine.  Having a political system that’s build around who can be the biggest dick and get away with it isn’t good for anyone.

This isn’t anti-man.  I think in general that the concepts of masculinity that permeate our culture are nearly as damaging to men as to women.  (I say “nearly”, because the women who get the worst brunt of men swimming in toxic masculinity are rape victims, sexual harassment victims, and domestic violence victims.)  Men are expected to shut off the best parts of themselves to prove themselves as men, and to make it worse, there’s never a point in the masculinity wars where you’ve proven yourself enough.  The only real option not to be constantly stressing is to let it go and feel comfortable in your own skin.  But there is non-stop pressure on men not to ever be comfortable, much less emotional and intellectual. 

And so yes, every time a candidate makes cracks about “cojones” or “man pants”, that’s a problem.  For female candidates, male candidates, the democratic system, and our larger culture.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:20 PM • (102) Comments

The WaPo has put together a compendium of sexist attacks on male candidates this election, some from female candidates happy to play the “mean girl” role, and some from male candidates channeling their own junior high school homosocial shaming tactics.

Conservative candidates tend to permanently locked into the worst aspects of that middle school/high school mentality, don’t they? Either they’re still trying to revive the feeling of being one of the “popular kids,” or they’re still stewing in resentment over being rejected by the “cool kids.”

Looks like some of them were so busy focusing on that bogus hierarchy during civics class that they missed the lesson about the Constitution explicitly mandating the separation of church and state. (you can’t make this stuff up).

Comment #1: Gracchus.  on  10/19  at  06:33 PM

It’s amusing to me how many of the masculine-obsessed wingnuts are also Real True Christians.  Given that Jesus spoke about things and performed acts that are almost exclusively seen as being from the “feminine”-side of human behavior, they have a tough time making their “feminine” Jesus into some example of machismo.  Clearing the money-changers from the Temple was absolutely not the only thing their Jesus is documented as doing.

Of course, rather than accept that caring, loving, having sympathy, and being thoughtful are human traits (and not exclusively in the domain of women) which would require a drastic re-thinking of their values, they have to create a Rambo Jesus god-figure who doesn’t exist in their holy book just to keep on message…

Comment #2: MikeEss  on  10/19  at  06:37 PM

It’s not just politics. Look at advertising, those “if you don’t drink Miller Lite you’re a fag” commercials. It does seem especially obnoxious in politics, though.

I’ve always thought this whole “what is a man” thing is beyond stupid. As far as I’m concerned, if you’ve got the right plumbing and you’re over 18, you’re a man, period, and deserve the same respect as any other man. Any other human being.

Comment #3: Bitter Scribe  on  10/19  at  06:40 PM

I think about this all the time as a guy.  Just how poisonous masculinity is for everyone involved.  I appreciate you highlighting it every so often.  I don’t know what to do about it, except call guys on it as often as I can in my personal life, but it’s pretty dis-heartening.  I really think it’s all down to the false dichotomy of “masculine” and “feminine”.  Arbitrarily partitioning off various traits as “belonging to women” or “belonging to men” that are in reality common to both genders is one of the key problems I think.  Everyone has moments of bravery, everyone has moments of grief where they have to cry, everyone would like to be smarter, etc.  All these traits we partition off by gender are just human traits.  Insisting they belong to one gender over another, and then making all the feminine traits inferior by definition seems insane to me.  I find it unfortunate that it’s the basis of our social relationships.

And yeah, the constant insinuation that only men can lead is going to take a while to get over.  We still obviously punish women in leadership roles for having aggressive qualities we praise in men.  But I don’t know how we make it better unless we just relentlessly call bullshit.  There’s also a huge fundamentalist aspect to this.  Growing up in what I thought was a fairly open-minded church (in retrospect - no), they did not and still do not allow women to lead the church as a pastor. The bible says women are equal but leading is “not their role”.  We’ll make more progress on this socially once people stop hearing “God created men to be in charge” from the pulpit.

Comment #4: SoylentH  on  10/19  at  06:45 PM

This kind of attack really is a triple whammy. Not only do you get misogyny, but you also get homophobia and style over substance. All of which is good for conservatives.

Comment #5: librarian  on  10/19  at  06:50 PM

Conservatives really don’t realize how much they reveal about themselves when they use feminine attributes or insults as synonyms for ‘incredibly icky and disgusting’, do they?  It all comes down to the fact that they think women are just the most vile things around.

Comment #6: ginmar  on  10/19  at  07:11 PM

@Comment #2, Jesus is just a brand name, he doesn’t mean anything.  The Jesus that Americans talk about has as much to do with the Biblical Jesus as I do with the famous Jazz singer I’m named after.

Comment #7: Toitle  on  10/19  at  07:15 PM

Good post.

The only thing I would add is that one other reason it is worse for women is that the one option men have—to put on the cowboy hat and the flight suit and act hyper-masculine—is denied to women. Women get trashed as lacking leadership skills and being too wimpy if they act traditionally “feminine”, but they also get trashed as maneating ballcrushing monsters if they act “masculine”.

So for women it’s a complete no-win situation, whereas for men it’s a win-if-you-are-willing-to-act-like-enough-of-a-douche situation. Both bad, but worse for women.

Comment #8: Dilan Esper  on  10/19  at  07:25 PM

As far as I’m concerned, if you’ve got the right plumbing and you’re over 18, you’re a man

So the penis makes the man? You don’t care about chromosomes or hormone levels or what the person themselves says they are? Society doesn’t seem to agree on this, see the strange testing in gender-oriented sports.

Comment #9: slingshot  on  10/19  at  07:25 PM

Conservatives really don’t realize how much they reveal about themselves when they use feminine attributes or insults as synonyms for ‘incredibly icky and disgusting’, do they?

Heh.  Almost as much as when they start hauling out the “gay gay gay sodomy buggery GAY!!” rhetoric.

“Being a man” is a performance act.  You only start policing other people’s performance if you’re secretly concerned your own performance might not be up to scratch.

I have to say that “reading is Teh Wimmen!” seems to be an American thing, but perhaps I’m biased.

Comment #10: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/19  at  07:33 PM

<blcokquote>The bible says women are equal but leading is “not their role”.</blockquote>

No, it really doesn’t say that. In fact, it says in many many places how UNEQUAL they are. This “equal but separate roles” bullshit is a fairly new phenomenon - probably to keep the women growing up that now have equal rights from all running away from religion.

Comment #11: slingshot  on  10/19  at  07:34 PM

The only thing I would add is that one other reason it is worse for women is that the one option men have—to put on the cowboy hat and the flight suit and act hyper-masculine—is denied to women. Women get trashed as lacking leadership skills and being too wimpy if they act traditionally “feminine”, but they also get trashed as maneating ballcrushing monsters if they act “masculine”.

Women can get bashed from either angle, making any woman vulnerable, but every man is open to bashing on whether he’s masculine enough.  Apart from possibly John Wayne, any guy could have his man cred questioned.

I recall when the wingnuts were hauling this out for Obama’s election.  I mentioned that he had two kids, a good relationship with his wife, and had supported himself and his family - wasn’t that pretty much manly enough for anyone?  No reply…

Comment #12: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/19  at  07:37 PM

Heh.  Almost as much as when they start hauling out the “gay gay gay sodomy buggery GAY!!” rhetoric.

Most homophobes aren’t gay, but I’d imagine a lot of them are angry at and jealous of gay men for breaking the rules.  Since they have to suffer through being around women to get sexual pleasure, why should gay men get to cheat and be able to do it with men?

That and a million other intersecting bigotries, anyway.

Comment #13: Toitle  on  10/19  at  07:53 PM

While I agree with the post, did it need an image of a near-impossible physical ideal for a male?

Comment #14: James  on  10/19  at  08:05 PM

Oh, lord: I’m feeding the troll.

No, Stickrule, the system where being the biggest dick is the key ISN’T good for men. It’s good for a very few men at the top, and it’s slightly less dreadful for non-dominant men than it is for women, but that doesn’t make it good for them. It’s toxic, demeaning and unsustainable. As if you care.

Comment #15: felagund  on  10/19  at  08:18 PM

Apart from possibly John Wayne, any guy could have his man cred questioned.

Not even The Duke got a pass on this puerile nonsense.

Speaking of which, hiya Stickie!

Liberal men think just as little of women as men on the right do.

That’s not can’t be accurate, given how much time conservative men like yourself spend obsessing over big swinging dicks.

Comment #16: Gracchus.  on  10/19  at  08:23 PM

If it isn’t good for men, then why do men like it?

Two types of men like it: bullying thugs and their lickspittles. As with stupid people, both types tend to be conservative. Which type are you?

What have guys like Bill Maher, Jon Stewart or Matt Taibbi ever said that makes you think that they have even an iota of respect for women?

Maher styles himself a libertarian, not a liberal. Taibbi’s a misanthrope—that means he has no respect for anyone. From what I know about him, Jon Stewart seems to like and respect women.

I’m sure there are a lot of liberal misogynists out there, but their numbers are dwarfed by the amount of conservative ones.

Comment #17: Gracchus.  on  10/19  at  08:31 PM

While I agree with the post, did it need an image of a near-impossible physical ideal for a male?

It’s related to the post - the pressure on men to be near-impossible in their “manliness”

Comment #18: slingshot  on  10/19  at  08:32 PM

I style myself as a neo-fascist, not a conservative.  Does that mean I’m not a conservative?

It means you’re a relatively honest conservative.  Well done.  Have a cookie.

Comment #19: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/19  at  08:40 PM

Are cookies “manly” though?

Comment #20: TheRealistMom  on  10/19  at  08:46 PM

I thought that sexism wrt how a man should be was a big factor in smears against Kerry and Gore. I really wish there was more discussion on it then.

I am sort of surprised that PAULSALATA or whatever his name has not showed up to call everybody a girl yet.

Comment #22: alysia  on  10/19  at  08:47 PM

I say it all the time: MACHO KILLS.

It kills women, sometimes directly. But it also keeps men from taking care of themselves, going to the doctor, or taking basic self help or self understanding steps.

And it’s no more useful when a woman is expected to do it.

Comment #23: WereBear  on  10/19  at  08:51 PM

I style myself as a neo-fascist, not a conservative.  Does that mean I’m not a conservative?

See comment #23. Couldn’t have said it better myself, PiatoR.

Maher is clearly a liberal.

No, he’s a libertarian who loathes the bigoted Know-Nothings who form the base of the conservative movement. That make him a “liberal” in the eyes of said morons, of course, but it doesn’t make it true.

You obviously didn’t read about the way Taibbi treated his female employees in Russia.  He clearly despises women.

He despises everyone. I know that you don’t consider women a subset of “everyone,” but trust me, they are.

Jezebel recently ran an expose on how sexist the Daily Show is.  They hired Olivia Munn for chissakes!

Comedy shows (and really any business that involves a writers’ room) are notorious for their frat-house atmospheres. Jon Stewart didn’t create that general situation, and as I recall from the Jezebel piece at that particular show things are better under Stewart than under his predecessor, and it quoted just as many strong supporters of Stewart himself as it did mild detractors. The criticism was aimed more at his management style than his supposed sexism.

Comment #24: Gracchus.  on  10/19  at  09:01 PM

I am sort of surprised that PAULSALATA or whatever his name has not showed up to call everybody a girl yet.

Don’t worry, stickie is fond of that lame insult, too.

Comment #25: Gracchus.  on  10/19  at  09:03 PM

“Are cookies “manly” though?”

...only if they’re made with a lot of unhealthful ingredients and advertised as something your girlfriend/wife/escort would frown on you eating.  If you could actually feel them shortening your life, it would be even better…

Comment #26: MikeEss  on  10/19  at  09:03 PM

Jezebel recently ran an expose on how sexist the Daily Show is.  They hired Olivia Munn for chissakes!

I don’t think she’ll be around much longer, unless she gets a lot funnier.

Comment #27: Bitter Scribe  on  10/19  at  09:12 PM

For fuck’s sake people, Amanda has specifically asked you not to respond to him because it messes up threads after she bans his latest account.

Comment #28: Toitle  on  10/19  at  09:13 PM

Are cookies “manly” though?

Sure, as long as they’re in the shape of a penis.

Eating them may not be.  Licking the little bit of icing at one end off slowly and suggestively definitely isn’t.

Comment #29: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/19  at  09:14 PM

And I’m not racist, I just hate immigrants.  Doesn’t work like that, ma.

Told you, Alysia.

Maher votes Dem, hates Repubs and is pro black/pro hispanic.  The guy is a liberal.

Again, just because that makes him a “liberal” in the eyes of narrow-minded morons, doesn’t make it true.

frat house = misogynist.  Then again, you wouldn’t know, having never been invited to one.

Beats not understanding the implications of the word “notorious.” Then again, I wouldn’t expect you to know, since it’s clear that you barely graduated high school.

I despise everyone too.  Am I not racist and sexist?

No, you’re just Matt Taibbi without the brains and writing talent. And let’s be honest, you love straight white conservative males. And, as noted above, their big powerful dicks.

Ok, I’ve had my fun. I’ll let the Pandagonians ban you now.

Comment #30: Gracchus.  on  10/19  at  09:20 PM

And when she bans me again I’ll just switch to a new IP and register a new account

This is stickie’s definition of an l337 haxor, by the way. Skills no doubt achieved during the 2 years of his distinguished post-secondary CS education at DeVry.

[sorry, couldn’t resist one more]

Comment #31: Gracchus.  on  10/19  at  09:25 PM

4: SoylentH The bible says women are equal but leading is “not their role”.

A lot of people, religious and otherwise, say this too. I’ve heard and read a lot of that kind of double-speak - lip-service to women’s equality while simultaneously advocating against actual equality. “Women are equal to men, but somebody has to be in charge.” Or “My church doesn’t view women as inferior, we just don’t believe they should be priests.” Or “I don’t have any problem with the idea of a woman President, but Hillary Clinton is a bitch.”

Also, what slingshot said. The Bible’s very clear that women are inferior subhumans put on earth to serve men.
That reminds me of another one: The thing about God being the head of man and man being the head of woman - I’ve seen a lot of arguments that that’s not a hierarchy laid out there, like I’m stupid.

Olivia Munn was the first female correspondent hired by TDS in like seven years. And she’s one woman. And she’s a Maxim cover girl. Stewart’s made Liz Winstead’s once-ingenious TDS into a sausagefest. And every time I turn to Comedy Central anymore, it’s wall-to-wall ads for “download real live girls to your cell phone.” I blame him. Fuck that guy.

Comment #32: snobographer  on  10/19  at  09:47 PM

I’ve always thought this whole “what is a man” thing is beyond stupid.

I totally agree, but I can’t help but think that it’s obviously an issue for some people. I mean, I never, personally, expended a lot of energy pondering, “what does it mean to be a man?”—it makes about as much sense to me as “what color is the letter F?”—but it is obvious that there are men for whom this is something they grapple with and have trouble dealing with life in the absence of a clear answer.

Comment #33: Tyro  on  10/19  at  09:48 PM

So what does “girly mangina” mean exactly?

Comment #34: snobographer  on  10/19  at  09:51 PM

So what does “girly mangina” mean exactly?

Stickie suspects MikeEss has a bigger dick than him, and is strangely fascinated by it…

Comment #35: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/19  at  09:54 PM

#33—I don’t think that Munn will be back, but mainly because her movie career is taking off and daily show correspondent is beneath her now.

There were a lot of problems with the Jezebel peice on TDS. It didn’t really take into account the culture of comedy outside the show. As Lizz Winstead said, there are a lot of filters taking women out of comedy before you even get to the level of daily show talent. Stewart is hardly a paragon of feminism, but he dose make an effort to seek out and promote female talent to a much greater extent than other comedy shows. He made an effort to higher two female writers recently and gave a platform to the brilliant kirsten schaal.

#40—Was there a time when Comedy Central wasn’t like that? I have been an addict of the channel since middle school and as far as I can remember it was always ads for sexy texting, ggw, and enzyte.

Comment #36: alysia  on  10/19  at  09:59 PM

“Stickie suspects MikeEss has a bigger dick than him, and is strangely fascinated by it…”

I’d respond to the troll, but I’m too occupied contemplating my new mangina…

Comment #37: MikeEss  on  10/19  at  10:07 PM

@29 Gracchus - “...as I recall from the Jezebel piece at that particular show things are better under Stewart than under his predecessor, and it quoted just as many strong supporters of Stewart himself as it did mild detractors. The criticism was aimed more at his management style than his supposed sexism.

That’s not true. Craig Kilborne was a frat boy misogynist douchebag, but he was just the anchor. Lizz Winstead was in charge and TDS had several more female correspondents and writers before Stewart took over. And the supporters who signed off on that open letter were almost all hair stylists and production assistants and the like. They weren’t in charge of the show’s content, which was the problem Jezebel raised in the first place.

@45 - alysia - “He made an effort to hire two female writers recently and gave a platform to the brilliant kirsten schaal.

After Jezebel and the Women’s Media Center publicly got on his case about it.

Was there a time when Comedy Central wasn’t like that? I have been an addict of the channel since middle school and as far as I can remember it was always ads for sexy texting, ggw, and enzyte.

Yes. The 1990s. There were woman-led shows, more female writers all around, and way fewer sexy-girls-for-sale ads. We’ve been witnessing a backlash the last ten years at least. A nasty one. And TDS’ sausagefest conversion under Stewart has been a central part of it.

Comment #38: snobographer  on  10/19  at  10:08 PM

46: MikeEss - I’d respond to the troll, but I’m too occupied contemplating my new mangina…

Of course, that’s not to compare you to a woman or anything. No misogyny there. No sirree.

Comment #39: snobographer  on  10/19  at  10:11 PM

he hired those writers before the peice. if he has hired more women after the jezebel peice, that is great though. Why didn’ the women’s media center go after letterman or anyone else after jezebel peices? or did they do that and Lettermen, etc just didn’t care.

Comment #40: alysia  on  10/19  at  10:18 PM

Ugh.  Both Sticktroll and a tedious “Jon Stewart is a Nazi Anti Christ Woman Haterz” troll in the same thread.  Can’t they just both get a fucking room?

Comment #41: Ms Kate  on  10/19  at  10:19 PM

@49 - They’ve made similar criticisms about all late-night talk shows, citing the numbers of female writers on each show, which are all pretty damn sparse. Jimmy Fallon’s doing better than any of them, except maybe Wanda Sykes.
@50 - Am I the “Jon Stewart is a Nazi Anti Christ Woman Haterz” troll here? Sorry to pick on your boyfriend, but I didn’t bring up the subject, and he is a dick. So is Bill Maher.

Comment #42: snobographer  on  10/19  at  10:37 PM

Apparently the observation that liberal people sometimes act in ways that they generally try not to is some sort of earth-shattering observation.  Boy, I’ve been schooled.

Comment #43: Linnaeus  on  10/19  at  10:54 PM

What’s sorta interesting to me is that once the dominant media narrative (ooh, does that come with black leather) aka list of gop talking points has established that a male candidate is effeminate (you know, doesn’t hate women and isn’t a kick-people-when-they’re-down asshole) then any manly things he does just go to confirm the pundits’ narrative of effeminacy. Kerry hunting and snowboarding, Dukakis in a tank blah blah blah. Whereas if a candidate has been established as masculine, then any wimpy behavior just confirms how comfortable they are in their masculinity.

From a safe distance, though, the “man” thing is a really effective filter: you know that anyone who uses it is a vile excuse for a human being and should not get anyone’s vote.

Comment #44: paul  on  10/19  at  11:01 PM

Lol!  Look at how the claws come out.

Yawn.

Comment #45: Ms Kate  on  10/19  at  11:05 PM

So anyway, I’ve been perusing NOW’s blog, ‘Say It Sister,’ and every one of their posts is polluted with copy-pastes from concern trolls about somebody involved with Jerry Brown’s campaign calling Meg Whitman a whore, for which Brown has apologized. Antifeminists are very concerned about sexism when it’s politically expedient. And they muddy the waters with their faux concern, like Palin does with the word “retard,” which only concerns her if a Democrat says it, but not if Rush Limbaugh says it.
The same people don’t give a fraction of a hoot about the sexist attacks on Krystal Ball, of course.

Comment #46: snobographer  on  10/19  at  11:08 PM

It’s ridiculous to call you gals the “2nd sex”.  You are 3rd, or 4th, at best.

So, what, men are at the top and you’re 2nd or 3rd?

Comment #47: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/19  at  11:21 PM

PiOTR, ftw.

Comment #48: alysia  on  10/19  at  11:28 PM

“Trannies are 2nd, 3rd is vacant, and then women are 4th.”

New low for troll comments…

Comment #49: MikeEss  on  10/19  at  11:36 PM

“Do Not Feed The Trolls.”

That means not responding to them, even if it’s funny, even if it’s to mock them.

I’m not sure what frame of mind it takes for Amanda to ask us not to feed the trolls, for us all to agree not to feed the trolls, and then to feed the trolls.

Comment #50: Punditus Maximus  on  10/19  at  11:43 PM

The underwear in the picture, both in blue and pink, is awful in design.

Comment #51: Lee  on  10/19  at  11:44 PM

The incredible harmfulness of American masculinity is starting to become a talking point I can use in dismantling it with even my most insecure friends.  In a general sense, it’s easy to show that there’s just no way to be happy while conforming to the infinite douchebaggery without any emotion whatsoever which is required of American men.

In particular, it is completely impossible to make enough money.

I keep telling my friends—the whole business is so toxic that you can simply check out wholesale.  Anyone who’s trying to hold you to any of it is just trying to justify their own bad decisions.  And that approach is getting results.

Comment #52: Punditus Maximus  on  10/19  at  11:46 PM

@59 What’s he supposed to do? Publicly disembowel himself? He didn’t make the comment.

No the right isn’t honest about its sexism. See the Mama Grizzlies campaign, the “Center for Concerned Women of America,” and every “crisis pregnancy center” in existence. All the right-wing pseudo-feminist anti-feminism.

Comment #53: snobographer  on  10/19  at  11:47 PM

Lee, I have never thought you so wrong raspberry

Comment #54: alysia  on  10/19  at  11:47 PM

Men are expected to shut off the best parts of themselves to prove themselves as men, and to make it worse, there’s never a point in the masculinity wars where you’ve proven yourself enough.  The only real option not to be constantly stressing is to let it go and feel comfortable in your own skin.  But there is non-stop pressure on men not to ever be comfortable, much less emotional and intellectual.

Well and succinctly put Amanda.  It affects even us self-identified feminist guys.  For a long time, I had a really difficult time with the fact that my wife makes more money than me.  I mean, why should I care as long as someone is bringing it home?  But, for some reason, I couldn’t let it go.  I know better!  Nevertheless, when I was in a mood for self-reproach, that would be one of the first things to come to mind.  It’s really hard to unlearn this shit.

Comment #55: Captain Bathrobe  on  10/19  at  11:52 PM

“Than I,” I should say.  I know better than that, too.

Comment #56: Captain Bathrobe  on  10/19  at  11:54 PM

The reason right wingers routinely attack Democrats for lack of manliness is that liberalism on any level is viewed as permanently unmanly—-having a heart, reading books, and getting along with others are all considered poisonous and feminine

Yes, that’s true, but there’s another reason Democrats have a problem attracting a certain segment of straight men: they cave at the slightest backlash from Republicans.  The best example is the Swift Boat debacle in 2004.  The SB scum come out with a pack of lies against a decorated vet who did one of the most horrible jobs in that war and what did the Dems do? Nothing, they plugged their ears and went “Lalalalala I’m not listening” instead of having an ad running 24/7 the next day saying in blunt, concrete terms: “This is a pack of lies by Bush (who fled TANG before his hitch was up), Cheney (couldn’t be bothered) and the rest of the chickenhawks”.  It’s one thing not to buy in to sexist/misogynistic/homophobic narratives, it’s another to sit there and be a punching bag for weeks.  I see it as a gay man and frankly, I’m worn out voting for Democrats because they cynically know that most people like me won’t vote for Republicans.

Comment #57: Henry Holland  on  10/19  at  11:59 PM

Yep.  This shit has been my biggest problem with Maureen Dowd and it’s exactly why I stopped reading it.  She claims she “gender bends” and “plays with gender roles.”

Uh, no she doesn’t.  She bashes women by bashing certain men as “feminized”.

It’s interesting, she probably hates Palin, but they have so much in common.

Comment #58: JennyLI  on  10/20  at  12:10 AM

Perhaps a lot of men exaggerate their masculinity because that’s all they’ve got going for them: “I may not make much money but look how strong I am!” It’s like religion in that (nearly) any guy can find not only solace but a sense of superiority there. Anyone not possessing a like masculinity or religiosity therefore lacks authority.

When I was growing up, “being a man” meant becoming an emotionally mature adult, although it included learning to use a wrench and a gun and a plumber’s snake. I even fix toilets in hotel rooms. (Not to say that it’s “man’s work”, just that it’s part of my heritage, like godlessness, liberalism and mathematics.)

Comment #59: bad Jim  on  10/20  at  12:12 AM

Snob @ 58, did you catch Megan McCain on Rachel last night?  It was a surprisingly good and interesting interview.

And she spoke at length about how the right wing was attacking her in a viciously sexist manner but there wasn’t a word being spoken about it by the usual suspects crying about sexism against Palin and O’Donnel.

I really enjoyed the interview.

Comment #60: JennyLI  on  10/20  at  12:13 AM

@74 - Not yet. I don’t get MSNBC, so I get Maddow on Podcasts a day after. I’ll definitely be downloading that one. Thanks for the recommendation.

Comment #61: snobographer  on  10/20  at  12:26 AM

every time a candidate makes cracks about “cojones” or “man pants”, that’s a problem.  For female candidates, male candidates, the democratic system, and our larger culture.

Absolutely.

The strangest group of people who’ve gotten irate about the whole “man up” thing? Men’s Rights Activists. Yep.

I talk about some of the, er, ironies of this in a post on my blog:

http://manboobz.blogspot.com/2010/10/mens-rights-activists-dont-tell-me-to.html

Comment #62: manboobz  on  10/20  at  02:03 AM

There’s a lot of anxiety in Dudes these days, I think its because there is starting to be a difference between those who spend at least half their day trying to be manly and those that don’t.  Turns out that the extra time and real human relationships with non-male humans is an advantage.  Or maybe its a function of age and things start getting really bleak and bitter once you nose over the half century mark.

Comment #63: ewellone  on  10/20  at  07:05 AM

I could do with real human relationships with male humans, too.  In a sea of dudebros, those can be hard to find.

Comment #64: bomberE  on  10/20  at  10:20 AM

It’s amusing to me how many of the masculine-obsessed wingnuts are also Real True Christians.  Given that Jesus spoke about things and performed acts that are almost exclusively seen as being from the “feminine”-side of human behavior, they have a tough time making their “feminine” Jesus into some example of machismo.

Come on, these are the same dimwitted fucknuts who ran around wearing Poison t-shirts in high school yet yelled “fag!” at any guy wearing an earring.

Intellectual consistency is, apparently, très gay.

Comment #65: Sarcastro  on  10/20  at  10:46 AM

@ #79: These are also the same dimwitted fucknuts who took the well-groomed hippie Jesus and turned him into a ‘roid raging, extreme pro-wrestler in all those stadium events that have been touring the country. Their Jebus is pretty much Randy ‘the Macho Man’ Savage.

Comment #66: Dr. Locrian  on  10/20  at  11:04 AM

@Cap’n Bathrobe:  I just wanted to say that I hear you and you’re not alone.

Comment #67: Punditus Maximus  on  10/20  at  11:16 AM

That’s not true. Craig Kilborne was a frat boy misogynist douchebag, but he was just the anchor. Lizz Winstead was in charge and TDS had several more female correspondents and writers before Stewart took over.

I re-read the Jezebel article. All it shows me is yet another boy’s club writers’ room led by on-air talent with poor management skills—that’s been the norm since Sid Caesar, and at this point it’s so well understood that it’s parodied on 30 Rock.

Most of the women quoted in the piece (including Stacey Grenrock Woods, who I know for a fact doesn’t pull punches) are saying just that and nothing more. And they’re not just quoting the P.A.s or makeup people. Even Stewart’s most talked-about victim, Madeleine Smithberg (the show’s co-creator), confirms that conclusion—I also doubt that she’s the first or last person of any gender at whom Stewart’s thrown a script in anger. It’s not a great situation, but it doesn’t make Jon Stewart a raging O’Reilly-style sexist, either.

You want to see the sort of maliciously sexist management you’re imputing to Jon Stewart, go onto the trading floor of any i-bank or brokerage. Or one of the rare construction sites that hires women. Or the showroom of an auto dealership. Or about about a hundred other industries where they don’t have the excuse of requiring a “freewheeling creative atmosphere” but still act in even more disgustingly sexist manner than your average writers’ room.

Turns out that the extra time and real human relationships with non-male humans is an advantage.

For everyone, sometimes in the strangest ways. Tech and coding is also male dominated, and usually you’ll get one or two guys who don’t shower or change their clothes on a regular basis. Add some women coders into the mix, though, and for whatever reason even those guys start cleaning up a little. That’s a major advantage in a small shop, where you don’t want one corner smelling like Jabba the Hutt’s bathroom.

The strangest group of people who’ve gotten irate about the whole “man up” thing? Men’s Rights Activists.

Never thought of that before, but now that you say it I’m not surprised that whingey, insecure douchebags would react that way.

Their Jebus is pretty much Randy ‘the Macho Man’ Savage.

Jesus vs. Jeezus

Comment #68: Gracchus.  on  10/20  at  11:52 AM

The pink one is especially bad.  Maybe it’s just the way it emphasizes his junk and makes it look like he’s carrying an Easter egg around.

Comment #69: BonAppetit  on  10/20  at  12:04 PM

(I say “nearly”, because the women who get the worst brunt of men swimming in toxic masculinity are rape victims, sexual harassment victims, and domestic violence victims.) Men are expected to shut off the best parts of themselves to prove themselves as men, and to make it worse, there’s never a point in the masculinity wars where you’ve proven yourself enough.

Ah c’mon, isn’t the stock response to this suffering of men supposed to be “Ah, did the poor men get the fee-fee’s hurt?”  The men who get the worst brunt of toxic masculinity aren’t those of us who can’t tell our fathers we love them (although I may’ve done that), or don’t get to read poems, or refuse to see a doctor when we’re bleeding into our brains, but the men who’re rape victims, or murder victims, or suicide victims. 

Ugh, if we have to start caring about men’s feelings, there’ll be no reason to associate with us at all! (I’m not sure how sarcastic that is?)

Comment #70: Brian  on  10/20  at  01:00 PM

Never thought of that before, but now that you say it I’m not surprised that whingey, insecure douchebags would react that way.

They love dishing out abuse to both men and women who don’t match their trogdolyte notions of masculinity or femininity but, you know, they have very thin skins, and a giant victim complex.

Comment #71: manboobz  on  10/20  at  01:07 PM

It’s not just politics. Look at advertising, those “if you don’t drink Miller Lite you’re a fag” commercials. It does seem especially obnoxious in politics, though.

Comment #3: Bitter Scribe

Light beer is manly?  Light Lager?  Really?
Or is it manly to drink a product whose company spends more money on advertizing then creating something that tastes good.

Comment #72: cynickal  on  10/20  at  01:13 PM

I worked for my Congressman Martin Heinrich. He is tall handsome, well groomed, soft spoken, environmental genius, and loves his kids—total wimp. At least what the ads say. There is the votes with Nanci Pelosi ads where she is depicted as a total harpie. So he is obeying the speaker woman beyutch. But he fooled them, he is running as a Democrat. He is taking on outsourcing of jobs and privatizing social security and is winning fairly big. They don’t understand being nice is often a sign of good leadership skills.

The one that kills me is when Rush fans point out how fat Michael Moore is.

The reason why conservative men love Sarah Palin, Michelle Malkin and Bachman is that they think they have a shot at the old mean girl hotties that rejected them in high school. These woman still act like mean 15 year old does not matter to them. But it is a good subliminal tool to hype up the base.

Comment #73: PatrickNM  on  10/20  at  01:19 PM

It’s toxic, demeaning and unsustainable. As if you care.
Comment 16—felagund

I somehow read the last sentence as “As are you.”

Though since it’s Stick that’s not all that far off.

In his defense, liberal men aren’t as anti-sexist as they should be (see, e.g., Keith Olbermann, Hershele Ostropoler). So stopped clock etc.

Maher votes Dem
troll

I’m curious how you know that. He’s a New Yorker, isn’t he? I’m fairly sure we have secret ballots here.

Comment #74: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/20  at  01:19 PM

I’m curious how you know that. He’s a New Yorker, isn’t he? I’m fairly sure we have secret ballots here.

Maher is a native of New York, but a resident of California, and we most certainly do have secret ballots here.

Not that it makes a whole lot of difference, given that Maher sometimes mentions political candidates or propositions that he supports/opposes on his HBO program.

Comment #75: Mezosub  on  10/20  at  01:35 PM

At least according to his public statements, Maher doesn’t always vote Dem. He voted for Dole in ‘96 and Nader in 2000. He just backed Kerry (mostly out of hatred for Bush) and Obama. That isn’t really that long of a Democratic streak.

Comment #76: alysia  on  10/20  at  01:59 PM

@BonAppetit #83

Maybe it’s just the way it emphasizes his junk and makes it look like he’s carrying an Easter egg around.

Maybe there’s a way our evil lefty feminist conspiracy can combine our two main goals of destroying religion and men…maybe we can (re)start a War on Easter “Baskets”?

Comment #77: Atheist, A Feminist  on  10/20  at  02:47 PM

@81

Thanks, Punditus. 

Re, your previous comment about ignoring the trolls: I think this—speaking from the heart and supporting each other—is the best antidote for trolling.  Ignoring is fine, but positivity is even better.  Thanks again.

Comment #78: Captain Bathrobe  on  10/20  at  03:58 PM

I worked for my Congressman Martin Heinrich. He is tall handsome, well groomed, soft spoken, environmental genius, and loves his kids—total wimp. At least what the ads say. There is the votes with Nanci Pelosi ads where she is depicted as a total harpie. So he is obeying the speaker woman beyutch. But he fooled them, he is running as a Democrat. He is taking on outsourcing of jobs and privatizing social security and is winning fairly big. They don’t understand being nice is often a sign of good leadership skills.

Ah, yes, Pelosi, evil empress of the universe who rules all of New Mexico via her trusted minions, Heinrich and Teague.  Or so sayeth the never ending barrage of Rethug ads on the t.v.  I’ll be so glad when the election is over.

Comment #79: adobedragon  on  10/20  at  05:58 PM

Sigh.

On the one hand, there is a lot of “be a man” or “man pants” or “grow some balls” stuff that is truly far more properly interpreted as “stop being a little boy” and “grow up and act like an adult” - when directed at a man acting like an immature frat boy, or worse, a 5 year-old.

Especially the “man pants” comment, which really does have its roots a generation or so ago when boys wore knickers or shorts, and getting your first set of long pants actually meant something in terms of maturity.

And we really, really do need this concept, in some sort of gender-neutral form - all too many people in our society need to grow up and stop acting like kindergarten kids at their worst.

I so want to disagree that this language as used isn’t misogyny, but rather that it is about maturity. But it isn’t. It has been utterly coopted as overt misogyny. Mixed in with the assholes are probably a few people who really do mean for people to just grow up and are confused by the sexism accusation, but the vast majority really do mean “don’t be a woman.” Especially when they talk about women having (or needing) the balls for this or that. Score another perfectly good concept down the tubes.

Resulting, of course, in the very real fact that the majority of the people (mis)using this kind of language are the ones who most need to do exactly that - grow up and act like grownups.

Comment #80: Lymis  on  10/20  at  07:09 PM

Thank you for this!  My Nigel, while otherwise awesome about calling others on sexist phrases, is awfully attached to the phrase “take your skirt off.”  He understands why it bothers me, and has stopped using it around me (and he is a good Nigel, I’m sure that now that he knows that it’s offensive, it’s not just a matter of not using it around me, since he is very bothered by people assuming that just because he’s a white male that it’s ok to say racist/sexist shit around him - he’s much better about calling people on saying racist/sexist crap than I am, as I tend to go into the “wait, did someone just say something that awful out loud, for real?” zone, and can’t react as I’m stunned into silence, which sucks, because people need to know that it’s not ok to say that kind of shit, even in a single-race or single-gender group) other than in discussions about why it’s problematic, but wanted a special dispensation on using a sexist phrase because it’d been in his lexicon since the playground, and therefore deserved a pass.  I was like, really?  The fact that we used a phrase when we were children makes it more suspect, not more deserving of a pass, b/c “childish insult” isn’t exactly an indicator that it’s an enlightened expression.  My compromise on the phrase is that he’s allowed to use it if he addressing someone who happens to be wearing a skirt at the time, kilts included.  It’s acceptable to use as a mean of saying, “hey, there is physical work to be done that require pants” but not as a way of saying “don’t be a girl.”  Because, hey, skirts are impractical attire for many activities, but it can only be used literally, not metaphorically.

“Grow some balls” is more problematic, because there it does have so much usage as “grow up” as opposed to “don’t be a girl.”  The strange, to me, thing is that it is an exception to my rule of thumb that kid’s insults are more likely to be suspect, as back in HS, the phrase was “grow some nads,” and gonad is a gender-neutral word.  I try very hard to just use “grow up” or “act like an adult” but damn it’s hard.  Saying “she’s got a pair of brass ovaries!” is too artificial for me to use, but “brass nads” wouldn’t trip up many listeners as being PC for the sake of being PC, so it doesn’t make me feel self-conscious to substitute it.

Comment #81: Djinna  on  10/20  at  08:59 PM

Does grow some balls mean get an inguinal Hernia?

Comment #82: PatrickNM  on  10/20  at  10:23 PM

Yes. The 1990s. There were woman-led shows, more female writers all around, and way fewer sexy-girls-for-sale ads.

Thank you for reminding me of why I stopped watching the Daily Show.  Ok, at the moment it’s technically because the only cable I can afford is the family package (which gets me TeenNick, FoodNetwork, HGTV, a DVR, and absolutely nothing else worth noting).  But originally it was because I kept seeing those frickin’ ads pop up*.  And it wouldn’t matter how hard I was laughing right before, after the third or tenth ad in the same 1/2 hour show - whatever joy I was getting from the show pretty much completely evaporated.

But then I’m a joyless, nagging, picky, oversensitive, type feminist who pretty much stopped watching Adult Swim after they ran ads telling me that they didn’t actually want me watching anyway.  (And I don’t mean that metaphorically - the actual ad was a response to a woman writing in, and their response to her was to essentially tell her that this was a boys club, so shut the fuck up.)  I would much rather pay money to watch the shows (or get them on the interwebs) than to have to “pay” by sitting through people telling me they despise and mock me.

*yes, I know, fast forward through them - but I still have to see enough of them to not get around knowing that they are there.

Comment #83: jennygadget  on  10/20  at  11:53 PM

jennygadget, just watch it on the web! wink

Comment #84: chibi  on  10/21  at  03:03 AM

I’m just wondering, as in the O’Donnel case, what the best immediate response would be, from a “winning” perspective, not a “i’m a good liberal” perspective. A good repeatable one-liner is worth 50k in ad buys, i’m sure.


My first thought was something along the lines of “Well, if you’re going to go there, Ms. O’Donnel, let me put you in your place…(segue back to matter at hand) ”

which I don’t think wins on either count.

Comment #85: Indy  on  10/21  at  11:21 AM

Lymis, a generation ago?  How old are you and where are you?  That had no meaning when my mother was a girl, much less me, and I am midle-aged.

You klnow, I don’t have a problem with saying “What are you, three?’ or just “Grow up!”, “Be an adult, already why don’t you?”, etc.  It is pretty damn common and not obviously PC.  Though, yes, I did have to point this out to my section manager when he was relating a story and claimed there wasn’t a replacement for the saying he used to use of “be a man” to his all male factory floor group just a few months ago.  He usually does better than that and prefaced the story with an appology to the 2 women in the room because he knew we would be offended.

Comment #86: helen w. h.  on  10/21  at  11:28 AM

I think this—speaking from the heart and supporting each other—is the best antidote for trolling.  Ignoring is fine, but positivity is even better.
Comment 78—Captain Bathrobe

Best solution: counter the message, if any, without directly engaging. Reaffirm progressive values without mud-wrestling the pigs.

Comment #87: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/21  at  12:50 PM

chibi,

The difference between watching the Daily Show on the web and the anime that I used to watch on Cartoon Network on the web is that I will always know that the same company that makes the Daily Show considers the trarget audience for those ads to be their demographic.  That isn’t the case for say, Inuyasha; Cartoon Network may not consider me a valuable member of their audience, but the producers of the original show in Japan know that women make up and important percentage of their audience.

Comment #88: jennygadget  on  10/21  at  10:27 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.