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Manic Pixie Dream Girls, the Santa Claus of romantic comedies

Movies

The people behind this movie “(500) Days Of Summer” owe this Insufferable Music Snob money to cover my dry cleaning bills.  Why?  Because I was subjected to this preview while waiting to see another movie, I yakked all over my clothes and they are to blame.  I will also add that while I try very hard not to harbor prejudice in my heart against women who have ginormous Bambi eyes—-because bigotry is wrong, you know—-Zooey Deschanel has finally just gone too far.  Of course, it’s so obvious that I’m forced to believe that she’s actually a darkly cynical person who is willing to ride the “so cute it’s not cute anymore” train until she’s sitting on a huge pile of money.  So I’m blaming the men who write these roles. Even my cats know that they have to mix it up on occasion by taking a giant stinky shit as a precaution against inducing cavities.  Even puppies know that you’ve got to slobber. 

But I digress, because it wasn’t Deschanel that caused me to lose control of my gag reflex.  It’s scene that starts off this trailer, where our young male hero falls head over heels for a woman in an elevator because she….loves The Smiths.  Oh my god!  He could have searched the world high and low for such a rare gem as a bona fide female human being who knows how to sing along to a popular Smiths song.  I’m sure subsequent dates were full of further revelations about shared love for other obscure bands that one couldn’t possible expect a woman to know of.  Perhaps they will retreat to his place where he’ll be astonished at her breadth of taste, so rare and precious in the ladyfolk.  She could own a Talking Heads album!  She may harbor love for Radiohead.  Perhaps she even listens to the Beatles?  It’s almost too much for a man to hope for so much rare awesome taste in one woman. 

Reading this essay by Doree Shafir about the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trend in “indie” romantic comedies dredged up all the pain and nausea this trailer caused me to suffer. It also caused in me, to swipe from Hugo, a “yes, no, and maybe” reaction.  The yes part:

She’s more of an elusive cipher, and this is a road Deschanel’s been down before, in Elf and All the Real Girls. .....

The most we learn about her is that she likes The Smiths, and Belle and Sebastian, and seems to have great style; throughout the film she’s decked out in adorable, vintage-y outfits…...

Still, girls like Summer invariably serve as combination muse/object of obsession, usually allowing the guy in the equation to finally unlock his true creative impulses.

It’s exactly these things that are frustrating.  The fantasy is of quirky, fun-loving women who have no internal life, no real ambitions, and who live only to send the hero into a dreamy reverie about how he does deserve more, dammit, and gosh, isn’t she cute?  The problem here is that a lot of characters that get tarred with the label of MPDG are from movies where the big reveal is that actually, it turns out that even adorably quirky women have internal lives, real feelings that can be hurt, and deserve respect as human beings, not to be treated as adorable accessories for the hero.  Or that’s the message in “Annie Hall”, at least.  MPDG movies are about stripping away the tension between the fantasy of the woman with personality and understanding and the real-world ego needs of women that are equal to men’s, by creating characters who are wholly the fantasy.


Shafrir mentions some examples, and my “no” reaction was that she got some wrong.  “Lost In Translation” and “Breakfast At Tiffany’s” don’t count, even if the actresses are so adorable that it’s hard not to feel a stirring of jealousy.  “Breakfast At Tiffany’s” is a seriously fucked-up movie in many ways,* but you can’t deny that the plot is driven by Holly Golightly’s failure to be the cipher she aims to be.  She wants to be a MPDG because it makes her money and keeps people at arm’s length, but her humanity keeps catching up with her.  That’s the whole point of the business with her cat being named Cat.  As for Sophia Coppola’s movies, I always thought she was more interested in examining how the pressure to live up to male fantasies of nubile ingenues damages the women who are objectified by it, but that’s most obvious in “The Virgin Suicides”. 

The “maybe” part for me was due to the fact that I kept getting the uneasy feeling that Shafrir is mixing up romantic comedy fantasies with real life, because instead of lambasting these movies for leaning on a dehumanizing stereotype of women, she aims her guns at the “girls” themselves, even though, as fantasies, they don’t exist.

Of course, men find these women utterly bewitching. And why wouldn’t they? They’re the ultimate unattainable muses. They never make any demands; they never nag; they keep everything operating on a level of fantasy. It’s like they’re women who read The Rules while listening to Elliott Smith. (See also: the girl in the band, who is often the ultimate ingenue.) And of course, it’s not difficult to see the appeal of a woman like Summer. She’s always just out of reach, making herself scarce at crucial moments and artfully dodging any of Tom’s questions about whether they’re boyfriend and girlfriend.

See what I mean?  At some point in writing this, Shafrir moved from lambasting the male writers who try to pass off their romantic fantasies as genuine characters, which is lazy and insulting writing, and goes on to be angry with women who don’t actually exist and, as such, couldn’t have done anything to Shafrir to make her so angry at them.  I might be overreading this, but this paragraph makes her sound like she’s jealous, and that takes away most of her authority to talk about this subject.  Zooey Deschanel is a real human being, and she doesn’t actually flit around in the real world giving men the idea that there is such a thing as a perfect woman who doesn’t get periods, doesn’t have bad days, and is always eager to listen to your hopes, fears, and dreams without wasting your time by having any herself. 

Reading that paragraph also gave me pause, because it falls way too much into the trap of joylessly reminding people that love is about hard work and not about that fun stuff, or maybe I just took it that way because she took a swipe at the “girl in the band”, as if a woman is betraying the sisterhood by pursuing ambitions and artistic pursuits that might make her more attractive to some men.  One would think that being in a band is exactly the sort of ambitious pursuit that we should applaud in women, though I do agree that a determined screenwriter could easily turn that into a MPDG trait by making the character’s talent seem effortless and minimizing her investment in the outcome.  This isn’t a small concern, since Shafrir seems to be moving into thinking that there are tons of women out there who are willing to actually pretend to be dream girls, and now everyone who’s in a band or avoids nagging is suddenly a suspect for the crime of giving men too high of hopes.  I don’t think that’s too much the case.  No matter how many books like “The Rules” are published, exhorting women to work hard at concealing their humanity from men in hopes of bewitching them into thinking they’ve found a perfect cipher, at the end of the day, women want the same thing out of love as do men—-the be understood, loved, and supported.  The poor fools who buy “The Rules” are just under the impression that you can drop the act after a set period of time, and he’ll accept the big reveal, which seems unlikely if a man is actually dumb enough to be sucked into believing he’s seeing a woman who doesn’t want anything from him in return for giving so much of herself.

But I do totally get Shafrir’s frustration.  The premise of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl is that our poor hero, who deserves so much from womankind, has been left adrift in a sea of boring hags.  That’s why the trailer for this movie made me want to shoot myself.  The audience is so in tune with the sexist premise that most women are tedious that we’re actually expected to buy the idea that a man would be blown away by meeting a female Smiths fan.  The answer to this isn’t to demand that men lower their expectations in terms of wanting to be with women that have some spark of life, though.  The problem with the stereotype is the one I thought Shafrir points out elsewhere—-the MPDG’s quirkiness, good taste, and love of life is portrayed strictly in terms of what men want for themselves, and we don’t get much indication that there’s anything going on below the surface in the MPDG.

*I haven’t yet read the book, which I hear is a lot different.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:20 PM • (166) Comments

I hate you snobby snobs and your snobbishness and I listen to country radio…and even I own Talking Heads albums.

Comment #1: lonespark  on  07/21  at  06:27 PM

Well, my point exactly.  Who the fuck is shocked when someone likes the Smiths?

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/21  at  06:31 PM

Does she also happen to be married/engaged/dating (to) an unemployed, funny-but-stupid slob? I thought that was required for good looking female characters these days.

Comment #3: Stephanie  on  07/21  at  06:34 PM

I’m so fascinated and glad to read this after wading through all the goopy reviews men have written of the film.

Comment #4: nolo  on  07/21  at  06:35 PM

what a soul-sucking load of bullshit. that movie trailer made me want to punch anyone unfortunate to get within swinging distance. at least “nick and norah’s infinite playlist” was about teenagers, there is no fucking excuse for adults acting like such jackasses.

the only nice thing i can muster up to say is that the bloggers at apartment therapy said the scenery and the way LA is shot for the film is beautiful.

Comment #5: jessilikewhoa  on  07/21  at  06:38 PM

I had the sense that this movie was supposed to be _warping_ the manic pixie dream girl indie rom-com plot—judging by the trailer, the guy comes off (to me at least) as stalkerish and unstable and really, really wanting to force the woman into the MPDG fantasy that she doesn’t actually embody.  There’s even the line in the trailer where the guy’s sister says something like “just because some cute girl likes the same stuff you do doesn’t mean that she’s your soulmate.”  I’m not sure they even end up together, or stay together especially long.  The only review I read was in Salon, so maybe that’s where I got the idea that it was more critique than validation of the concept.

Comment #6: FlipYrWhig  on  07/21  at  06:44 PM

just read the essay you link to over at the daily beast, and i can’t for the life of me understand why deschanel’s character is being attacked for sleeping with the 3rd rock kid’s character without wanting to marry him.

And that’s why portrayals of women like Summer are, ultimately, retrograde. For Summer turns out to be the bewitching villain in this story, breaking Tom’s heart without a second thought. When Tom finds out she got married, he asks her how she was able to get engaged to someone so soon after they’d broken up; after all, she’d told him many times that she wasn’t looking for a boyfriend. “It just happened,” she says, batting her big blue eyes at him. Thanks for the closure.

especially irks me because i met the man i’m about to marry when i explicitly did not want a boyfriend. i told him i did not want a boyfriend. i was sleeping with someone else when i was first dating him because it was casual and open and i could and i wanted to. i ended up wanting to be with him and later to marry him, and the best way to describe it would be to say “it just happened.” Shafrir seems to take issue with women doing what they want, and i take issue with that.

Comment #7: jessilikewhoa  on  07/21  at  06:46 PM

Or, to come at it a different way, it’s possible that the trailer is banking on MPDG memes (to get earnest indie kids and post-kids in the door), but the movie itself is tweaking them.  I hope.

Comment #8: FlipYrWhig  on  07/21  at  06:46 PM

This trailer was conspicuously devoid of zombies, robots, chase scenes, explosions or frivilous kill scenes, so I agree with you that this film will suck.

Somehow, though, I’m sure my wife will pick it for us to watch on cable at least 4 times. At least it will displace “Miss Congeniality”.

I’d pay good money to see a feminist film where chicks kill zombies without the help of any man.

Comment #9: I Heart Puppies  on  07/21  at  06:48 PM

I just watched the trailer and I’m confused. Am I supposed to actually want to see this movie?

Fess up, Amanda. You edited this together to make it look and sound as awful as possible, didn’t you?

Joking. Fucking hell, throw in a fatal illness and this is MPDG perfection.

Comment #10: RickMassimo  on  07/21  at  06:50 PM

I’d pay good money to see a feminist film where chicks kill zombies without the help of any man.

That’s pretty close to a fair description of _Aliens_.

Comment #11: FlipYrWhig  on  07/21  at  06:52 PM

You mean there are people who actually *believe* there are real (or even pseudo-real) MPDGs out there?  I once had a romance with a young woman who shared a lot of the same tastes that I did, but who had a seriously messed up life before we met (daddy issues, etc). I learned all that up front, and we tried to make a go of it. She ended up wanting someone to replace her father and that wasn’t me. She wanted the Knight in Shining Armor, and kept trying to push and bait me into doing things that weren’t me, and I began to resent it a lot. I wonder if a KISA and a MPDG met, would they spontaneously explode into a giant ball of pink cotton candy?

The romantic comedy sure has fallen from the standards of earlier times.

BTW, the book BAT is quite different than the movie.

Comment #12: mndean  on  07/21  at  06:53 PM

Of course, men find these women utterly bewitching. And why wouldn’t they?

Because some of us actually DO like “a woman who actually has opinions, who doesn’t play hard to get, who articulates her hopes and dreams and expects her boyfriend to get excited about those, too.”

i ended up wanting to be with him and later to marry him, and the best way to describe it would be to say “it just happened.” Shafrir seems to take issue with women doing what they want, and i take issue with that.

She (and, as far as I can tell, the movie, but for different reasons) seems to take issue with women maybe not knowing why they do what they do, and not necessarily being able (or even wanting) to explain themselves to a man’s satisfaction, which is of course the standard.

Comment #13: RickMassimo  on  07/21  at  06:59 PM

JohnGor0, just wait for the film version of Pride & Prejudice & Zombies!  Elizabeth Bennet kicking some serious zombie ass with the help of her four sisters, and it ought to pass the Bechdel test (they talk about zombies).

Comment #14: tiggrrl  on  07/21  at  07:02 PM

mndean:

The romantic comedy sure has fallen from the standards of earlier times.

Perhaps the same geniuses who took over radio programming in the 70’s and 80’s have set their sights on the romantic comedy. We watched “My First Mister” a couple of months ago, and it was a pretty cool film for the first 45 minutes. Then, it’s like a star chamber of film critics with real shit taste got ahold of it and turned it into a feel-good, lesson-learning piece of beef crap.

That happens alot. I don’t know if it’s men trying to create some ideal of ironic, quirky women you immediately want to punch in the face, or trying to make films that offend no one.

Give me an Inland Empire, or a Persepolis any day of the week.

Comment #15: I Heart Puppies  on  07/21  at  07:07 PM

She (and, as far as I can tell, the movie, but for different reasons) seems to take issue with women maybe not knowing why they do what they do, and not necessarily being able (or even wanting) to explain themselves to a man’s satisfaction, which is of course the standard.

but from the trailer and Shafrir’s own write up, it seems like Deschanel’s character is honest the entire time about what she wants and doesn’t want. just because that changes once she meets someone a few months later doesn’t change what she wanted before. Shafrir seems to take issue with the fact that desires and interests aren’t static and the people, even those ca-razy women type people, change and grow.

Comment #16: jessilikewhoa  on  07/21  at  07:10 PM

One would think the MPDG is a dead horse trope by now. Is it even possible to pull that kind of character off successfully without deconstructing her? (And, actually, wasn’t that the entire point of “Amélie”?)

Comment #17: BrianX  on  07/21  at  07:11 PM

but from the trailer and Shafrir’s own write up, it seems like Deschanel’s character is honest the entire time about what she wants and doesn’t want. just because that changes once she meets someone a few months later doesn’t change what she wanted before. Shafrir seems to take issue with the fact that desires and interests aren’t static and the people, even those ca-razy women type people, change and grow.

Right. That’s what I’m saying, or meant to at least.

Comment #18: RickMassimo  on  07/21  at  07:12 PM

All things considered, I have found two things about this movie refreshing:

Deschanel’s character saying, “No, I’M Sid.” because I like that (in appearances at least) she comes across as self-assured and kind of not really concerned with Dude’s feelings on the issue or masculinity.  Big ups to her character here.  Also in another trailer she mentions being perfectly happy alone.  This is also cool.

Secondly, in another trailer he tells his little sister everything and she says something to the effect of, “You really think because you like all the same stupid shit she’s your soul mate?”  And I wanted to kiss the kid right there, because who *hasn’t* suffered from that idiocy at some point?

Comment #19: aliceinreality  on  07/21  at  07:14 PM

Deschanel’s character saying, “No, I’M Sid.” because I like that (in appearances at least) she comes across as self-assured and kind of not really concerned with Dude’s feelings on the issue or masculinity.

I liked that too, although I felt like I was being asked to find that surprising and shocking, which I found insulting.

Comment #20: RickMassimo  on  07/21  at  07:18 PM

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Comment #21: Crissa  on  07/21  at  07:23 PM

I wonder if a KISA and a MPDG met, would they spontaneously explode into a giant ball of pink cotton candy?

Apologies for excessive swearing, but it’s impossible to state the below properly without it.

No. It’s the biggest fucking mess you’ve ever seen in your entire life, because in real life the credits don’t start to roll two minutes after the fucking wedding. What happens is that life grinds onwards, and isn’t all bliss and puppies. The KISA (who, in real life, is just some guy with unrealistic expectations) gets a bug up his ass about the fact that his MPDG turns out to be an actual human woman who can’t remain MPDG 24/7. The MPDG (who, again, is just some woman with unrealistic expectations) similarly gets infuriated that instead of life being all romance and candy and OMGawesome, life continues to be filled with work, bills, kids (who in real life are immature human beings and not factories of cuteness and sunshine), and so forth. Typically you get an UGLY blowout, a messy divorce, then the KISA wanders off into NG® territory while the woman goes nuts trying to be a MPDG with children.

Comment #22: Llelldorin  on  07/21  at  07:24 PM

Dear MonkeyShines,

Please refrain from starting your post to Amanda with the condescending “MandySez”.  Perhaps Amanda doesn’t mind it, but it makes me want to shove a pencil into my frontal lobe.  It makes you come across as a smirking douchebag that pats a woman on the head while dismissing anything she says.

Thanks!

A concerned citizen
Kitten parade

Comment #23: kitten parade  on  07/21  at  07:31 PM

Thanks Kitten parade.  That always sort of pissed me off too, because no one else refers to her as “Mandy” except trolls.

Comment #24: Antigone  on  07/21  at  07:48 PM

@MonkeyShines

As far as I know there are only two romantic comedies worth watching: The Lady Eve by Preston Sturgis, staring Barbara Stanwyck, and Much Ado about Nothing by Shakespeare, I like the film version with Emma Thompson.

I love The Lady Eve (and all of Preston Sturges, even Miracle at Morgan Creek, though I’m kind of creeped out by the “miracle,”) and also all the Katharine Hepburn romcoms, like Bringing Up Baby, Philadelphia Story, Woman of the Year, State of the Union, and Holiday.  Actually, her character in Bringing Up Baby is an interesting precursor and foil to the MPDG: free-spirited, unconventional, whimsical, but also substantive. 

Maybe it’s the distance of years, or KH’s awesomeness, that doesn’t make her personality irksome and insufferably flighty in that film?  Or perhaps it’s that the romantic comedies of the 40s question and cast doubt on the very idea of “love at first sight,” which is after all the engine of the MPDG concept.  That’s why the MPDGs don’t need to have personalities; they are immediately adorable.  The “comedies of remarriage” (to use Stanley Cavell’s term) from 40s present situations where couples must deliberately choose each other, arrive at mutual love rather than starting from it. 

As for musical tastes/dating, when my current partner came over to my place for the first time, I remember how impressed he was that i had stockhausen and boredoms cds.  I never thought of it as a particularly gendered thing, though maybe it sort of was…

Comment #25: olivetti  on  07/21  at  07:51 PM

One would think the MPDG is a dead horse trope by now. Is it even possible to pull that kind of character off successfully without deconstructing her?

It seems likely to me that some kind of deconstruction or form-genre-formula commentary was the filmmakers’ intention—for instance, the review I read pointed out that the film isn’t organized in a clear narrative sequence. 

But MPDG doesn’t seem dead yet.  Or at least people keep beating the horse.  That movie about working at a cheapo amusement park for the summer, which also came in for a whuppin’ here (and which I didn’t see), seemed to have been quite earnest, and there was a recent Zach Braff movie that also appeared quite earnest about the emotional needs of cluelessly sensitive white menz who just need one quirky sparky woman to save them from oblivion. 

Whether this one succeeds in deconstructing anything or not is an exercise I’ll leave to those who watch the actual movie.

Comment #26: FlipYrWhig  on  07/21  at  07:51 PM

I saw the preview, and it just about made me puke, too. No shit? You like one of the most popular songs by one of the most popular bands of all time? Holy fuck! Let’s move in together! It’s not like she said she loved Sleepytime Gorilla Museum or even, say, Mr. Bungle or something.

Did anyone see the preview for the movie about the woman who falls in love with the guy with Asperger’s? I’m starting to think that the Hollywood version of guys with Aspergers is becoming the male version of the MPDG. That preview also made me want to puke.

Comment #27: Jenny Dreadful  on  07/21  at  07:57 PM

I wonder if a KISA and a MPDG met, would they spontaneously explode into a giant ball of pink cotton candy?

Time to watch “Natural Born Killers” again….

Comment #28: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/21  at  07:58 PM

The only way I’d believe that whole “omg she like Smiths!?@!” reaction is if his character had just fallen off the turnip truck out of Garth Brooksville. Aren’t they in LA? They have hipsters in LA don’t they? Don’t hipster boys talk with girls about, like, stuff? Aren’t they supposed to be oh-so-enlightened with regards to gender roles in comparison with the rest of us old farts.

Comment #29: Margo  on  07/21  at  07:59 PM

Re: Blue velvet as a romantic comedy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf-Gn0bXPCc

Comment #30: Gaslight  on  07/21  at  08:07 PM

The movie was called Adam.

Comment #31: Jenny Dreadful  on  07/21  at  08:13 PM

I’d be wary of judging the movie by the trailer - I say this because I just saw a trailer for ‘Once’, after I’d seen the movie, and the trailer had little to nothing to do with the plot.
The thing I really liked about ‘Once’ was that (spoiler alert) both characters realize by the end that having the same taste in music does not a relationship make. From the trailer, it looks like they’ll wind up being gooey and happy with each other. I also liked that the characters were actually members of a band and played all their own songs, although it did make seeing them in concert a little weird.

In other words, a really good movie can have a really shitty trailer that makes it look formulaic when it’s not at all. Or the movie might be formulaic. It’s pretty 50/50.

Comment #32: jalmondale  on  07/21  at  08:15 PM

From the trailer, it looks like they’ll wind up being gooey and happy with each other.

Not at all.  This looks like the story of Joseph Gordon-Levitt falling in love, getting dumped, and moving on with his life / (alt super depressing ending) committing suicide.  Hence the “this is not a love story” disclaimer at the start.  This is a total break up movie.

That’s my guess, anyway.

And even then, I don’t see what the big deal is.  Amanda isn’t pissed at “trendy goth girl” nearly as much as she’s just on another one of her “stereotypes drive me up a wall” moods.  Which is fair.  It’s hard to find good original movies anymore.

Comment #33: Zifnab  on  07/21  at  08:40 PM

olivetti,
Try Too Many Husbands for another good romantic comedy, or either of the Cary Grant/Irene Dunne comedies, The Awful Truth or My Favorite Wife. There’s lots more of them out there. Since you’ve seen all of Sturges (I hope that includes Easy Living), you don’t need me to tell you about them.

Comment #34: mndean  on  07/21  at  08:45 PM

Llelldorin,
I hope you realize I meant the archetypes used in the movies, not actual, real humans (since they don’t exist, which was my point).

Comment #35: mndean  on  07/21  at  08:48 PM

Sorry, mndean, I’ve just run into a few too many people who really get into these wretched movies, and are convinced that life would just be wonderful if they could find their “soulmate.” It makes for aggravating listening.

Comment #36: Llelldorin  on  07/21  at  08:50 PM

especially irks me because i met the man i’m about to marry when i explicitly did not want a boyfriend. i told him i did not want a boyfriend.

Same here, except we will have been married for 12 years as of next month.  It made perfect sense, too, because my previous boyfriend experiences sucked.

Comment #37: lonespark  on  07/21  at  08:53 PM

What really cracks me up is that they are having this “OMG!! You love the…” moment over the Smiths of all bands. It’s not like they are obscure. By indie standards, they are the Beatles!  They were in a massive, national car campaign! Yet the filmmakers obviously think that this is a band so obscure that the likelihood of two people who both like them meeting is some sort of magical event of cosmic proportions. I mean, have they noticed that liking The Smiths pretty much makes you a part of a demographic at this point?

However, my love for There’s a Light knows no bounds, so I’m willing to forgive the idiocy, because I’m a sucker. Which is probably why they picked The Smiths to begin with - they are a huge cultural marker for us 30-somethings and we allegedly have money to spend at indie films.

Comment #38: elena  on  07/21  at  08:56 PM

OK, I have to ask, aren’t The Smiths and Pixies slightly odd shared tastes _for people the ages of the characters_?  I saw Pixies in 1992 and already knew well that I was very late on board that train.  IMHO it’s not quite the same as the characters bonding over a mutual love of, I dunno, Franz Ferdinand or something.

Comment #39: FlipYrWhig  on  07/21  at  08:57 PM

FlipYrWhig: Not particularly.  I’m 23, and most people I know from ages 19-25 are aware of both bands, and know songs by both.  People our age reached backwards for hip bands in HS before we moved forward to hipper bands in college, I think.

Comment #40: aliceinreality  on  07/21  at  09:01 PM

Which is probably why they picked The Smiths to begin with - they are a huge cultural marker for us 30-somethings and we allegedly have money to spend at indie films.

Right, but the characters look much more like 20-somethings.  When I first saw the commercial for the movie, I thought it was going to be about college.  (I just Wikipediaed the actors and they’re a lot older than I realized.)

Comment #41: FlipYrWhig  on  07/21  at  09:02 PM

@ aliceinreality:  Fair enough; we were reaching backwards for Bowie and The Clash.

Comment #42: FlipYrWhig  on  07/21  at  09:05 PM

Ok, I do like that “I’m Sid,” part.  But I would like for it to be in a movie about something completely different.

Comment #43: lonespark  on  07/21  at  09:06 PM

FlipYrWhig, I think the characters are older. Maybe late 20s? The 3rd Rock guy has always looked younger than his age. But I always get the sense that 30+ is the target demographic for films like that. I could be wrong!

Comment #44: elena  on  07/21  at  09:11 PM

flipyrwhig, not at all.  the smiths are still an indie institution for 20-somethings.  just about every rock club in LA has a periodic “smiths night.”  so yeah, even early-20s hipsters know/like these bands, to say nothing of mid/late-20s hipsters like myself and ms. deschanel.

along those likes, i’ll reiterate that meeting someone of that description in LA who DIDN’T like the smiths would be the aberration.  morrissey is practically the mayor of east LA.  silly filmmakers!

Comment #45: chareth cutestory  on  07/21  at  09:12 PM

The male protagonist is surprised that the MPDG chose to marry someone else—isn’t this one of the typical scripts for a Nice Guy (tm), that the other guy isn’t objectively any better than him, so why doesn’t MPDG follow the script?

I guess the friend calling her an uppity better than everyone superskank is supposed to be a big laugh moment.

Comment #46: oldfeminist  on  07/21  at  09:15 PM

Amanda, I really wish you had read up on this movie before you wrote this post. I had heard about in during a radio interview with the director, and it became pretty clear that it was a deconstruction of all of the MPDG tropes and tropes about fate and love-at-first-sight that we’re accustomed to in run-of-the-mill romantic comedies. Assuming this review is accurate, this is what we get:

The film begins not with how Tom and Summer met, but their break-up. A break-up which totally devastates Tom and throws him into a deep depression. He keeps thinking back to their 500 days “together” to try to figure out where things went wrong.

But all he can remember are the good times. Why didn’t it work? Why doesn’t she love me? But I love her so much! And like most broken relationships, Tom should have been able to figure it out from the start. When she said that she wasn’t interested in having a serious relationship, he should have realized right then that it might not work. But the feeling of love propels you forward. If you believe someone is your sole mate, than it’s easier not to notice the obvious. You obsess over superficial connections (like say music) and artificial experiences rather than connections of substance.

The reason that you and the commenters are almost offended at a movie that portrays a relationship that begins with something as ridiculous as two people who like the same music is because it is ridiculous, but the truth is that the movie makers seem to know that.

Am I going to see this movie? No. But we should at least have enough respect for the material to know what is going on before criticizing the creators. People should be able to do trite, stupid things in movies do make fun of people who do those trite, stupid things. You were the one who took me to task for saying that movies are too mass-market a medium to make subtle distinctions in the message. Can you at least entertain the possibility that this movie is precisely about those mistaken assumptions we make in relationships that cause us to have misplaced expectations about relationships and the people we have them with?

Comment #47: Tyro  on  07/21  at  09:34 PM

@Zifnab: “Not at all.  This looks like the story of Joseph Gordon-Levitt falling in love, getting dumped, and moving on with his life”

Sorry that I wasn’t clear - I meant the trailer for Once, not the trailer for 500 Days of Summer. I was comparing movie vs. trailer where I’d seen both, and saying that the differences there suggest that judging a movie by its trailer is not a valid strategy.

Comment #48: jalmondale  on  07/21  at  09:41 PM

just about every rock club in LA has a periodic “smiths night.”

You might meet somebody who really loves you, and you go and you stand on your own, and you leave on your own, and you go home, and you cry and you want to die.

I stand corrected.  I was so wrong that heaven knows I’m miserable now.

Judging by the review Tyro links and the review I read in Salon, it sounds to me like the trailer is stitching back together all the commonplaces the film itself is attempting to deconstruct.

Comment #49: FlipYrWhig  on  07/21  at  09:44 PM

Stills from MPDG films with appropriate captions = Anthropologie catalogue

Comment #50: sara  on  07/21  at  09:48 PM

Deschanel’s character saying, “No, I’M Sid.” because I like that (in appearances at least) she comes across as self-assured and kind of not really concerned with Dude’s feelings on the issue or masculinity.

I liked that, too, but then I got a really unpleasant air of homophobia/misogyny when he replied with, “Oh, so I’m Nancy?” Haw, haw, poor guy, being emasculated like that. Not only is he compared to a woman, the woman’s name is Nancy! Like what you might call a gay guy! Truly, I feel for him.

Comment #51: Lauren O  on  07/21  at  09:48 PM

The clothes at Anthro don’t bear close examination, either. They are always photographed with long shots or diffuser effects.

Comment #52: sara  on  07/21  at  09:49 PM

gaslight,

Awesome Blue Velvet romatic comedy trailer—I liked the “if David Lynch had drected Dirty Dancing” one as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjvuCOlkO4E&feature=fvw

Speaking of David Lynch, I would nominate Wild at Heart for the best trailer/worst movie combo.

And for fuck’s sake, I remember coming home from law school for Christmas in 1984 and my youner sister (I guess she was someone’s MPDG) playing the “Hatful of Hollow” import for me—on vinyl of course.  Reel Around the Fountain was pretty revlatory.  But that was 25 friggin’s years ago.

Comment #53: Sir Charles  on  07/21  at  09:54 PM

OK, I have to ask, aren’t The Smiths and Pixies slightly odd shared tastes _for people the ages of the characters_?

Kids into music might get it.  I had lots of punk when I was in my late teens, and that was well after the punk movement.  On the other hand, I think this is something I see a lot…  slightly older writers write characters about ten years younger than themselves, but they don’t do much research.  They just write themselves ten years younger only now.  Have you ever accidentally tuned in to the sitcom How I Met Your Mother?  Don’t go out of your way, but it is the best example I know of this phenomenon.

Comment #54: Eileen  on  07/21  at  09:55 PM

“younger” and “revelatory”—I guess I should preview before I blaspheme.

Comment #55: Sir Charles  on  07/21  at  09:56 PM

I liked that, too, but then I got a really unpleasant air of homophobia/misogyny when he replied with, “Oh, so I’m Nancy?”

I was disappointed by this response too, because I compare myself and my husband to people regardless of sex/gender all the time.  It doesn’t phase him at all.  The Joseph Gordon-Levitt character lost almost all attractiveness points with that response alone. 

Back when I was dating, that response in an early date scenario would have meant no more dates.  I don’t have time to reeducate doofi.

Comment #56: Eileen  on  07/21  at  09:59 PM

Question for the group:

Was Harold and Maude a variation of the MPDG genre, a spoof of it, or something different altogether?

Comment #57: Captain Bathrobe  on  07/21  at  10:05 PM

SPOILER WARNING

I saw this movie this weekend, and I liked it. First, the good stuff. It was beautiful to watch and beautifully told. And I liked the music. I’d watch it again just for those things. What I liked best, though, was that they don’t end up together. This was a big plus for me because I think we need more love stories like this in our culture - stories about love that doesn’t result in marriage and kids but is still meaningful and good and worth having in your life. So I thought that was a step forward as far as romantic comedies go, and I appreciated it. 

But the bad stuff - yes, it’s all MPDG. Really, one of the worst offenders I’ve seen. My boyfriend (who was the one who suggested we see the movie, so it’s not always the chicks who run out to see this stuff) claimed there was a review that said this movie turned that on it’s head, but it did not. Just because they don’t end up together doesn’t mean she doesn’t still function as a MPDG. And the fact that they married her off at the end really annoyed me. The whole movie she’s going on and on about not wanting to belong to anyone and hating labels, etc., and out of nowhere she just gets engaged? I can buy the “it just happens” thing, but it would’ve been nice to see a bit more of that transformation in her, especially since I think dating him was supposed to be part of that transformation. Really I think they just needed something to signify this relationship was definitely over - something to bring about that dramatic change in HIM - and marrying her off was the easiest way to do it, even if it wasn’t really consistent with her character.

Comment #58: antiope  on  07/21  at  10:07 PM

Amanda—Agreed about “Annie Hall.”  Even though Diane Keaton’s character is the model for all modern MPDGs, part of the point of the movie is that she has an internal life and personal issues separate from the hero, and when he can’t be satisfied with her and tries to remold her into his personal ideal partner, the relationship blows up in both their faces.  (In “Manhattan” Woody comes up with the solution: get a woman while she’s young enough to have almost no internal life or issues, so you can sculpt her personality from scratch.  Ew.)

Katherine Hepburn’s character in “Bringing Up Baby” rubs me the wrong way, mainly because Hepburn seems way too smart for Manic Pixie crap.  Which is another thing about the MPDG: for the character to seem plausible at all, she has to be either a teenager, mentally ill, or stupid.*  No self-respecting adult acts like that all the time.


*The most amazing send up of the MPDG is, of course, in “Arrested Development,” where -SPOILERS- Michael dates a woman who appears to be a MPDG for several episodes without realizing she’s mentally retarded.

Comment #59: Shaenon  on  07/21  at  10:10 PM

Perhaps the same geniuses who took over radio programming in the 70’s and 80’s have set their sights on the romantic comedy,

It’s Fox Searchlight—that’s pretty much what happened. The studios just hopped on the indie bandwagon in the late ‘90s, and are slowly blandify-ing and rom-com-ing the underlying themes while retaining the superficial hipster trappings with some shiny Hollywood polish. The MPDG is one of those trappings, right along with the mopy emo-type boy, the quirky thrift-shop set dressing, and the alternative music.

The music is the key marker. This movie is aimed at exurban Millenials (male and female) who’ve just recently discovered that there’s more to music than the Billboard top-40. That’s why, for this film, they chose The Smiths, who I enjoy but ... well, they’re a band that someone as square as me enjoys, and has for close to two decades.

but from the trailer and Shafrir’s own write up, it seems like Deschanel’s character is honest the entire time about what she wants and doesn’t want.

It seems that way to me, too, although I’d have to see the movie to be sure. Either way, the Summer character does indeed fulfill the basic role of the MPDG in that she shakes the mopey emo-boy out of his boring grind of a life—the difference from movies like “Garden State” and “Elizabethtown” seems to be that, after the MPDG has some standard-issue mutual fun (cue montage and soft-focus sex) with the sweet guy, she gets the heck out because she’s smart enough to understand that he’ll never be as fabulous and edgy as her no matter how hard he tries to change. From what I’ve read, I believe she ends up engaged to a “bad boy” type within months of dumping the protagonist.

That last bit will probably attract the resentful NiceGuys® once the word gets out, giving it a little bump beyond the initial date-movie traffic. The development and marketing departments of Fox Searchlight are many things, but they’re not fools when it comes to making money—despite the indie veneer they’re about as earnestly devoted to ars gratis artis as Louis B. Mayer was.

Comment #60: Gracchus.  on  07/21  at  10:13 PM

So the votes seem to be trending “clueless possibly-insecure reviewer” rather than “formulaic moviemaker”.

(Oh, and am I right that Amanda seems to be using “girl in the band” as “musician who is in a band and happens to have two X chromosomes” whereas the reviewer is using it as “naive, probably not-very-talented eye candy who gets noticed by all the guys in the audience while the male musicians do all the work”?)

Comment #61: paul  on  07/21  at  10:14 PM

Was Harold and Maude a variation of the MPDG genre, a spoof of it, or something different altogether?

Maude is totally, completely a MPDG.  She is the head of a subset of MPDG’s who inspire and then take themselves out of the way (i.e. die).  She inspires and heals the lead guy and then gracefully kills herself so he can take the lessons he learned from her into his real life.

See also Sweet November.  And Autumn in New York.  There are more examples;  it is a complete sub-genre.

Comment #62: Eileen  on  07/21  at  10:16 PM

Katherine Hepburn’s character in “Bringing Up Baby” rubs me the wrong way, mainly because Hepburn seems way too smart for Manic Pixie crap.

It was screwball comedy, where every-one of every gender (except the Ralph Bellamy doomed-fiance types) gets hysterical, so I was willing to accept it from Hepburn there there. Also, she is going for Cary Grant ... in glasses ... and a bow-tie. Smart-but-kooky seemed the only way to go there.

That said, the same tropes are still there—they just take them more seriously in movies like “500 Days of Summer” than they did in “Bringing Up Baby.”

Comment #63: Gracchus.  on  07/21  at  10:23 PM

Agreed about “Annie Hall.” Even though Diane Keaton’s character is the model for all modern MPDGs, part of the point of the movie is that she has an internal life and personal issues separate from the hero, and when he can’t be satisfied with her and tries to remold her into his personal ideal partner, the relationship blows up in both their faces.

You got it. They’re both screwed up, along with most of the other characters. Allen’s original title for the film was “Anhedonia” (“an inability to experience pleasure from normally pleasurable life events such as eating, exercise, and social or sexual interaction”).

Annie Hall is only a model for MPDG’s in terms of off-beat superficial mannerisms and dress, but she doesn’t transform Alvy’s life for the better, which is what a real MPDG would do.

Comment #64: Gracchus.  on  07/21  at  10:35 PM

The trailer skeeves me out because guys who like music that much make want to run away screaming.

Comment #65: Entomologista  on  07/21  at  10:37 PM

The first MPDG that came to my mind was the French chick in Better Off Dead.

Comment #66: Azalea  on  07/21  at  10:40 PM

I seriously doubt it, Flip. I read that review, too, and I think she was stretching.  The thing is the “just because she likes the same things you do” line makes NO SENSE, because EVERYONE LIKES THE SMITHS.

Comment #67: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/21  at  10:46 PM

There’s a difference between movies that give in to the MPDG trope and movies whose male protagonists believe that their object of affection is their MPDG for the purpose of exploring and exposing his delusion (eg, The Heartbreak Kid, Chilly Scenes of Winter).

For those just joining Pandagon, please see Manic Pixie Dream Girls debunked back from August ‘08.

Comment #68: Tyro  on  07/21  at  10:51 PM

Maybe I’m reading too much into it but I didn’t see that he was crazy about her because she liked the Smiths.  I thought it was because she was someone outgoing enough to talk to him in the elevator.  Let’s face it, he looks like a dorky loser and here’s this very pretty and social woman who speaks to him.  I would have said, “Holy shit”, too when she walked out of the elevator even if the Smiths were 179th on my list of favorite groups.

Comment #69: Tom P  on  07/21  at  10:53 PM

Actually, her character in Bringing Up Baby is an interesting precursor and foil to the MPDG: free-spirited, unconventional, whimsical, but also substantive.

And she knows what she wants and goes balls-out to get it.  I can’t think of many MPDGs like that.  Usually they seem to accept interest from the male lead.

A little off topic: I normally hate movies like Bringing Up Baby where one character is put upon by another, but for some reason I love BUB.  I guess it’s because Hepburn and Grant are so likable in that film, and, despite how exasperating she could be, you have to root for Susan.  David just can’t be allowed to marry Miss Swallow.

Comment #70: keshmeshi  on  07/21  at  10:54 PM

EVERYONE LIKES THE SMITHS

Now that you mention it, The Smiths is the least controversial possible choice the filmmakers could have made.  They are exactly THE non-alterna alterna band.  I can’t think of a less controversial choice.  I can find people who hate Weezer and Red Hot Chili Peppers because they sold out, who haven’t heard of the Pixies, or who got burned out on Violent Femmes, but I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who doesn’t like The Smiths.

The trailer takes more of a chance (but not, and they know it) with the Hall and Oates song.

Comment #71: Eileen  on  07/21  at  10:54 PM

I should add that I didn’t get much else from the trailer except that she dumped him and he wants to win her back which I am fairly certain is the theme of at least 80% of all love films.  Although I did like the line where she said she was Sid Vicious.  That would at least make the film more interesting.

Comment #72: Tom P  on  07/21  at  10:56 PM

In Bringing Up Baby, you know that David really wants Susan, he just doesn’t realize it because he has Miss Swallow on the brain.

Comment #73: Tom P  on  07/21  at  10:58 PM

I’ve just run into a few too many people who really get into these wretched movies, and are convinced that life would just be wonderful if they could find their “soulmate.” It makes for aggravating listening.

That I can understand. My group of friends is older, so I never have that problem.

BTW, weren’t the Smiths around when I was in my early 20s, around 25 years ago? That’d be like a movie set in the late ‘70s having two people meet cute over their love of The Five Royales.

Comment #74: mndean  on  07/21  at  11:10 PM

BTW, weren’t the Smiths around when I was in my early 20s, around 25 years ago? That’d be like a movie set in the late ‘70s having two people meet cute over their love of The Five Royales.

That’s why I asked (at 7:57 PM).
 
I’m looking forward to someone writing a meet-cute fable involving Squeeze or The Selecter.

They are exactly THE non-alterna alterna band.  I can’t think of a less controversial choice.

B-52s.

Comment #75: FlipYrWhig  on  07/21  at  11:29 PM

The B-52s are a good weeder group, because it is perfectly possible to not be into them, but if you’re not into them because you hate Fred Schneider for some *mysterious* reason, then you’re probably a douche.

Comment #76: Eileen  on  07/21  at  11:35 PM

I think a movie where a couple meets cute over something like heroin would be a nice slapdown of this syndrome. Unfortunately, it’s already been done, long ago.

Comment #77: mndean  on  07/21  at  11:38 PM

Not to disagree with anything else written above…

I don’t know who the Smiths are.  Never heard of them.  I’m in my twenties.

I’m not super into music but I do like music and listen to it.

Comment #78: Victoria  on  07/21  at  11:39 PM

From what I’ve read, I believe she ends up engaged to a “bad boy” type within months of dumping the protagonist.

We’re not told anything at all about who she ends up with.

There’s a difference between movies that give in to the MPDG trope and movies whose male protagonists believe that their object of affection is their MPDG for the purpose of exploring and exposing his delusion

That’s a fair point, and I fully admit that I expected this to be more of the same MPDG, so perhaps that’s why I saw it that way. Your comment made me think of two scenes in particular, one which - looking back on it with this perspective - is especially heartbreaking for Summer. The curse of the MPDG! When she finally talks about her hopes and dreams, no one hears her!

I already told a friend I’d see it again with her. I’ll try to keep a more open mind during the second viewing.

Comment #79: antiope  on  07/21  at  11:40 PM

The thing is the “just because she likes the same things you do” line makes NO SENSE, because EVERYONE LIKES THE SMITHS.

Maybe it would be better as “just because _you think_ she likes the same things you do,” or even “just because she likes the same lame, normal things you do.”  If the guy was getting all swoony because the woman really liked grilled cheese sandwiches or something, it would be _more_ cutting to say “just because she likes grilled cheese sandwiches like you do.”  It could still be a line that makes sense if the point is that the guy’s sister is taking the piss out of him for thinking he has a deep emotional connection… when he doesn’t.

Tyro wrote “There’s a difference between movies that give in to the MPDG trope and movies whose male protagonists believe that their object of affection is their MPDG for the purpose of exploring and exposing his delusion,” and I think that’s right.  Of course the sticking point is trying to figure out which kind this movie is, and then it’s even further complicated by the fact that a movie could be designed to make you find the guy obnoxious, obsessive, and delusional, and yet end up showing him as likable and sympathetic anyway because of the performance or the audience.  (E.g., the Apatow movies show us a bunch of enormously self-absorbed and emotionally stunted assholes, but the audiences that embrace them say things like, “Bro, that is so us.”)

Comment #80: FlipYrWhig  on  07/21  at  11:55 PM

the sticking point is trying to figure out which kind this movie is, and then it’s even further complicated by the fact that a movie could be designed to make you find the guy obnoxious, obsessive, and delusional, and yet end up showing him as likable and sympathetic anyway because of the performance or the audience.

I think it’s hard to ever make a movie about an unsympathetic protagonist. After all, you have to sell tickets. At the same time, it’s not totally an inaccurate portrayal. Good people with good intentions can still be immature and act obsessive and delusional. You can get a movie about a character who comes to a certain amount of self-realization where he grows out of a childish delusion. The audience reaction isn’t going to be “what a douche,” but “Yeah, we’ve been there.”

Comment #81: Tyro  on  07/22  at  12:10 AM

From a guy’s perspective, I don’t think the movie is really about the woman.  It is about a very common guy phenomenon - falling in love, believing it is real, then being dumped and not understanding how this thing you thought was real love didn’t pan out.  What I don’t get is that these two seem too old for that.  It’s something that happens to guys in their late teens/early 20’s.  But the first time a guy really falls in love, he’s dumb as a rock.  He doesn’t care if they share the same values, or have the same attitude towards money, or have common goals for what they want to do with their life.  All he knows is she’s so adorably cute, and is just the kind of woman he imagines will be his wife, and he signs up like he really believes in it, and he’s going to be a good partner and be everything she wants and they’re going to make it work. 

And women, who seem to be smarter about this stuff in their early 20’s, figure out that this is not the last relationship they ever want to have and they pull the plug on it, and the guy is left unwilling to accept that was the outcome.  (This happened to me with my college girlfriend, and I participate on a guitar-related forum and it’s amazing how many guys in their early 20’s have a similar experience - the 3 or 4 year relationship they spend 2 years getting over.)

I don’t know anything about MDPG’s, but I think maybe the reason her character is so shallow is that the movie isn’t about her.  It’s principally about the guy.

Comment #82: Wallace  on  07/22  at  12:14 AM

It seems to me a plot failing.  Wouldn’t a young lady these days would have to be sort of a classicist to be into the Smiths?  We elderly folks may have followed them two and a half decades back, but who ever heard of a pixie (not a Pixie) with grey hair?

Comment #83: W. Kiernan  on  07/22  at  12:15 AM

the Apatow movies show us a bunch of enormously self-absorbed and emotionally stunted assholes, but the audiences that embrace them say things like, “Bro, that is so us.”

The Apatow factory movies (which I generally enjoy) also work a slight variation on the MPDG trope, wherein the woman who helps rescue the protoganist from his extended adolescence is quirky and fun and sexy, but also grounded (e.g. Katherine Keener in “40-Year-Old Virgin,” Katherine Heigl in “Knocked Up”). The male and female leads usually end up together. Apparently he (and his acolytes) draw on his own marriage to Leslie Mann for this formula.

Comment #84: Gracchus.  on  07/22  at  12:19 AM

I assure y’all the Smiths’ music is alive and well in the younger generations. I’m 21, and I listened to them all the time during my melodramatic high school years. My (female) best friend of the same age is more obsessed with the Smiths than any other person you will ever meet. They may not be that mainstream, but if you encountered someone in the elevator who liked the Smiths, all that would tell you is, “This person is at least remotely interested in indie music.” It wouldn’t tell you anything about the rest of their musical taste or personality or compatibility with you. Although in my melodramatic high school days, I did think other Smiths-lovers were soulmates; maybe that’s the age anachronism here, rather than the liking of the Smiths.

Comment #85: Lauren O  on  07/22  at  12:32 AM

Erm my housemate (late 30s) hates the Smiths. In all other respects she fits exactly the demographic you would expect to like the Smiths. I like them (early 40s). She likes New Order (who I find annoying). We have a rule that we can only play those albums when the other person is out.

Comment #86: JC  on  07/22  at  12:40 AM

I live with my head wedged firmly into Top 40 Land most of the time, and I like songs by The Smiths, fer crying out loud!  This is what Hollywood thinks is obscure?

I only watch a few romantic comedies, ever, ever, and the MPDG makes me want to stab the writers.  I like Singles (which I realize is a cringe-worthy product of it’s time) but the bit where Bridget Fonda kisses grungy guy over saying “bless you” makes me nucking futz.  Right up to that point, there had been a wonderful example of how suck it is to be someone’s MPDG, and the movie blows it!
___
I had a thought but I lost it as my husband and I got into a 2 hour argument on health care, and I had to explain a lot of things, including the glass ceiling.  I love the man dearly, but he’s so blind to white male privilege it makes me homicidal.

Comment #87: Godless Heathen  on  07/22  at  12:47 AM

I think maybe the reason her character is so shallow is that the movie isn’t about her.  It’s principally about the guy.

Wallace, you’ve explained Hollywood in a nutshell.  Every movie is principally about the guy because, you know, what other perspective could there be?

Comment #88: Godless Heathen  on  07/22  at  12:51 AM

t is about a very common guy phenomenon - falling in love, believing it is real, then being dumped and not understanding how this thing you thought was real love didn’t pan out.

This is in no way, shape, or form, by any stretch of the imagination, a “guy phenomenon.” Taking a universal human experience and claiming ownership of it on behalf of men while denying it to women is the essence of misogyny. Well, one of the essences.

Comment #89: sophonisba  on  07/22  at  01:08 AM

I’ve been hoping that this wouldn’t turn out to be the worst MPDG movie ever, because I really like Zooey Deschanel (of course, I also like to assume that in real life, she’s not as shallow and one-dimensional as pretty much every character she’s ever played on film). At the same time, I’ve been assuming that it will be, because Annie Hall is the standard.

Also, I wouldn’t be able to name a single Smiths song of the top of my head, not even if my life depended on it.

Comment #90: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/22  at  01:16 AM

@ Dan:  You’d probably recognize at least one, the song used for the theme to “Charmed,” which was also in a car commercial.  That’s “How Soon Is Now?”  I’m partial to the title “Heaven Knows I’m Miserable Now.”

Comment #91: FlipYrWhig  on  07/22  at  01:35 AM

<i>The trailer skeeves me out because guys who like music that much make want to run away screaming. </i?>

Gee, I hope we never meet, then. Among other things, I’m also a musician. Of course, my idea of fun is to get our band to do a Harold Arlen jazz standard, rearranged.

Comment #92: mndean  on  07/22  at  01:36 AM

Since Joseph Gordon-Levitt’s hotness couldn’t get me through the trailer I’m gonna guess it won’t get me through the movie. 

The music based meet-cute is overplayed, but its the talk-talk-talkiness of the trailer that drove me off.

Comment #93: semi_factual  on  07/22  at  01:38 AM

The music based meet-cute is overplayed

At least this MPDG meet-cute isn’t as bad as the Shins MPDG meet-cute in Garden State.

Comment #94: Eileen  on  07/22  at  01:51 AM

best anti-MPDG movie i can think of? “chasing amy.” he wants her to be the MPDG but her real life kinda gets in the way. one of my favorites. FSM bless kevin smith.

Comment #95: chibi  on  07/22  at  01:57 AM

mndean, she must be even more terrified of us freaks of the female sort that ‘like music that much.’ i don’t know anyone who doesn’t like MUSIC, wtf.

Comment #96: chibi  on  07/22  at  02:14 AM

I don’t know who the Smiths are.  Never heard of them.  I’m in my twenties.

You know Johnny Marr from Modest Mouse? The Smiths are his first band.

raspberry

Comment #97: Auguste  on  07/22  at  02:32 AM

chibi,
It’s worse than that for me. I actually took a year of music theory as well. She might run screaming into the streets as I approach. And I know about old movies. Thousands of old movies. I’m not safe to be around.

Comment #98: mndean  on  07/22  at  02:33 AM

At some point in writing this, Shafrir moved from lambasting the male writers who try to pass off their romantic fantasies as genuine characters, which is lazy and insulting writing, and goes on to be angry with women who don’t actually exist and, as such, couldn’t have done anything to Shafrir to make her so angry at them.  I might be overreading this, but this paragraph makes her sound like she’s jealous, and that takes away most of her authority to talk about this subject.  Zooey Deschanel is a real human being, and she doesn’t actually flit around in the real world giving men the idea that there is such a thing as a perfect woman who doesn’t get periods, doesn’t have bad days, and is always eager to listen to your hopes, fears, and dreams without wasting your time by having any herself.

Reading that paragraph also gave me pause, because it falls way too much into the trap of joylessly reminding people that love is about hard work and not about that fun stuff, or maybe I just took it that way because she took a swipe at the “girl in the band”, as if a woman is betraying the sisterhood by pursuing ambitions and artistic pursuits that might make her more attractive to some men.

Maybe, I’m underreading, but I don’t take away from that passage that she’s lambasting real women.  I think she’s still criticizing a movie trope.  And if you look at women who are actually in bands it’s pretty obvious that there aren’t any who fit the MPDG mold.  Or women not in bands, for that matter.  I know I wouldn’t be able to mimic a MPDG if I tried.  I think I’ve known a few women who tried to pull it off.  They failed, badly.

Comment #99: DonnaDiva  on  07/22  at  03:08 AM

This is in no way, shape, or form, by any stretch of the imagination, a “guy phenomenon.” Taking a universal human experience and claiming ownership of it on behalf of men while denying it to women is the essence of misogyny. Well, one of the essences.

sophonisba on 07/22 at 12:08 AM

This.  Once again, we must remind one and all that male != default human.

Comment #100: DonnaDiva  on  07/22  at  03:12 AM

I don’t know anything about MDPG’s, but I think maybe the reason her character is so shallow is that the movie isn’t about her.  It’s principally about the guy.

Yep.

Comment #101: DonnaDiva  on  07/22  at  03:16 AM

This.  Once again, we must remind one and all that male != default human.

Also, “me and my friends” is not “guys”, and “my ex-girlfriend” is not “women.”

(The reverse holds as well; you run into rants along the lines of “why do men cheat?” in which “men” appears to be an alias for a Mr. John ExBoyfriend of 432 Main St., MyTown.)

Comment #102: Llelldorin  on  07/22  at  03:20 AM

In re new music + youth culture I think the major difference with youth culture now that I can observe is that it’s become uncoupled from new music except for the occasional dance-pop-whatever hit. Old music competes on a much more even level now, because of the way the internet works – much easier to find things/ songs if they already have mindshare, + being ensconced in video games, the decline of the mass media push, etc.

Also your twenties aren’t your teens – by then, if you’re interested in music, you’re spending time expanding your tastes by going back along the influences of the bands you grew up on. Even in college – I spent lots of the early/mid ‘90s listening to late ‘70s punk. My friends, artist types, were heavy into the Stones, Zep, ‘60s girl groups. So, you know?

Comment #103: brandon  on  07/22  at  03:38 AM

This trailer was conspicuously devoid of zombies, robots, chase scenes, explosions or frivilous kill scenes, so I agree with you that this film will suck.

Everyone knows that the ultimate guy movie would have pirates, dinosaurs and an all-girl U-boat crew.

Comment #104: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  07/22  at  03:44 AM

mndean:

It’s worse than that for me. I actually took a year of music theory as well. She might run screaming into the streets as I approach.

Heh. I have a master’s degree in music history. I think I might be the anti-Entomologista.

Comment #105: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/22  at  06:14 AM

I will never forgive Deschanel for playing Trillian as a dappy, simpering MPDG in the Hitch-Hiker film.
In the books, Trillian was A FUCKING ASTROPHYSICIST.
I can make no further contribution to the discussion.

Comment #106: MissPrism  on  07/22  at  08:02 AM

MissPrism,
Maybe we should call all MPDGs “a Zooey” (there really isn’t anyone else with that name around), thereby being descriptive and insulting of the actress’ choice of parts all at the same time. Even have Zooey awards for the most revolting MPDG of the year. She may win herself for a few years.

Comment #107: mndean  on  07/22  at  08:25 AM

You know what would have been funny?  If the band that caused this dialogue was She & Him.  Then I would be forced to laugh.

Comment #108: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  09:05 AM

Oh, and am I right that Amanda seems to be using “girl in the band” as “musician who is in a band and happens to have two X chromosomes” whereas the reviewer is using it as “naive, probably not-very-talented eye candy who gets noticed by all the guys in the audience while the male musicians do all the work”?

Quite possibly.  If so, the latter is a character type I’ve never seen in a movie, but I’ll happily believe it’s there.  And if so, like the MPDG, that’s a fantasy.  I’ve seen a lot of live bands in my time and a lot of female band members, but I’ve never seen one who shows up just to be cute and doesn’t actually work as hard.

Comment #109: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  09:11 AM

Victoria, then you need to go listen to some Smiths, and you’ll probably realize a) you’ve at least heard “How Soon Is Now” and b) that you, like everyone else, likes them.  The reason that everyone likes The Smiths is that they are a great band.  They’re not even that “indie”, since from what I can tell, they’re superstars of a sort in Britain.

Comment #110: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  09:17 AM

Donna, I sure hope you’re right, but Shafrir drifted away from using words like “character” and “stereotype” and “audience” and used language about how of course men like these girls, because these girls deceive them about the nagging boringness that is inevitable when you get with a woman, etc.  and suddenly I thought I was reading someone talk about why your lover is more fun than your spouse, instead of a movie trope.

Comment #111: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  09:27 AM

Am I the only here how despises the Smiths and anything remotely related?

Why oh why don’t MPDGs like metal.  “I just love Darkthrone.”  I’d pay ten bucks to see that.  “So cold, so pure, Transilvanian Hunger.”

Comment #112: Todd  on  07/22  at  09:34 AM

err… who despises the smiths.  How I despise the Smiths involves projectile vomiting and wanting to relentlessly stab people who try get me to stop despising them.

Comment #113: Todd  on  07/22  at  09:36 AM

I am surprised that no one has mentioned that Zooey Deschanel is in a band. Which I haven’t heard, even though they just played here and a lot of my friends went, because (chibi et al) I’m not that into music.

Well, moreover (and I think this is what Entomologista might have been getting at) I’m not that into music as a competitive hobby that requires hoarding gigabytes and gigabytes of music with which to impress people and a grim obsession with the hipster delineation of cool versus uncool taste. I view spending hours and hours and hours of your life obsessively pursuing new music as a hobby that should be on league, interest-wise, with collecting riddles / botanical samples / train schedules - a cute personal quirk - but unfortunately Late Capitalism’s love of turning culture into a commodity and encouraging an unceasing pursuit of novelty means that all the sudden the contents of my iPod are supposed to be the be-all and end-all of my identity as a human being. It’s as obnoxious as being judged by my shoes or my car. The only thing saving it for me is the fact that it’s at least mostly predicated on theft.

Sorry, apparently that struck a nerve. I mean, if you play music, good for you. That’s a basic human urge to make things; I both write and knit, so I know where you’re coming from. I am just really sick of being asked what kind of music I’m into at parties. Bad music. And music I can sing.

Comment #114: purpleshoes  on  07/22  at  10:06 AM

purpleshoes, I did coyly mention it in the comment about how it would be funny if Deschanel was like, “Oh, you like She & Him?  Me too!  *sings a little of it*”

Comment #115: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  10:18 AM

purple, you don’t have to justify your non-obsessiveness with music by describing those who are deeply into it as “grim”.  I promise you, they aren’t grim people.  Insufferable Music Snobs usually are pretty witty folks in my experience, and they generally have such a childish love of music that they often go from being too cool to dancing around like dorks within mere seconds of hearing something they really like.  I’m not even close to being the music obsessive that some people I’ve met are—-I don’t have a basement full of records—-but in my experience, someone being a complete nut for music collecting is almost always coupled with a great sense of humor and a tendency to grab life by the horns.  Occasionally, you’ll meet someone who’s like that but a little more of a homebody, but so far, I’m batting 1000 on “great sense of humor”.

I realize that record collectors and music snobs make people feel insecure, I really do, but it’s always funny to me that they do so more than film snobs or food snobs, who have the same childish love/inability to grasp why others don’t share it, but they aren’t turned into the punching bag for everyone who wants to feel superior to the hipsters.  My working theory is that music obsessives almost all were nerds and geeks in high school, but they’re seen as straying from the fold and becoming cool adults.  But make no mistake, it’s as geeky hobby, and requires the same levels of commitment, untoward enthusiasm, and piles of useless knowledge as any geeky hobby.

Comment #116: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  10:30 AM

I mean, seriously, that’s why “High Fidelity” worked so well, especially the record store scenes.  I can’t think of a better example of how the competitiveness of record collecting geeks is just like any other geek obsession—-they might as well be boasting about the video game scores or whatever.  I know people exactly like Jack Black’s character.  Yeah, they dress well and get laid a lot, but give ‘em a beer and ask them for a top ten list, and they will get all enthused about it.

Comment #117: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  10:38 AM

<u>I’d pay good money to see a feminist film where chicks kill zombies without the help of any man. </u>

That’s pretty close to a fair description of _Aliens_.

And the “Resident Evil” series, I believe.

Comment #118: Alara J Rogers  on  07/22  at  11:01 AM

I wish my wife was into speed metal. Alas..

Comment #119: MarkusR  on  07/22  at  11:11 AM

“And the “Resident Evil” series, I believe.”

Alice kicks ass.  There may be a few men in her universe who tag along and get a few kills, but ultimately it’s all about Alice…

(...at least one of the Alices - at a time - anyway…)

Comment #120: MikeEss  on  07/22  at  11:30 AM

In Wallace’s defence, his use of the guy-thing phrasing (and the implicit male-by-default message correctly noted by others, above) is in direct contradiction to his own point: that women go through this too, and earlier than men.  That “fall deep and pine” thing, in my own humble and limited experience, just happens to them in high school, the guys in their early twenties.  I watch too few movies of this type to have any opinion at all as to whether or not movies are made about the girls’ earlier experience.  (I followed the earlier thread to the original MPDG-debunking, and was thrilled to see that I’d only seen one of the movies in its entirety: Annie Hall, and only parts of one other.  Yay!)

YMMV on this earlier-on-the-curve thought, naturally, and I’m 44 so there’s some generational difference, too, I’m betting. But not much.  If the Apatow et al movies are anything to go by girls are encouraged to be humourless and focused at an early age, and boys are urged to defer their maturity for as long as possible; decades, if you’re “good” at it.  Given that construct the “learning experience as the hammer falls” romance is bound to come later for young men.

Comment #121: seeker6079  on  07/22  at  11:57 AM

Re. younger set being followers of Gen-Xers’ music; I saw Peter Murphy live a week ago (yes, it was a pretty good show) and I made of point of checking out the demographic while we waited in line to get into the hall.  Yes, most were late-30s+, and they were the ones in the old Bauhaus or Bela Lugosi tees, but to my delight there were a few young 20s, as well, who knew a bloody lot about it.  They were—I don’t need to point out—flagrant music geeks.

Comment #122: Ranylt  on  07/22  at  12:01 PM

Amanda, I suppose that if you are yourself a music nerd you can probably tell the difference between people who like music for music and people who are just into the oneupsmanship. I associate Dudes Who Are Into Music with the kind of people who do the hipster-compliance once-over upon meeting new people, and I dislike them accordingly. For the record, the same people I find grim in their musical competitiveness I tend to also find grim in their cinematic, literary, and sartorial competitiveness. I have no objection to music as a nerdly hobby - but as a high-turnover commodity in which something can be so three months ago, I have a bit of a grudge. And that’s what I associate with people who are not, say, into a particular band or into an obscure style but rather declare themselves to be Into Music, to bring it back around.

purpleshoes, I did coyly mention it in the comment about how it would be funny if Deschanel was like, “Oh, you like She & Him?  Me too!  *sings a little of it*”

Oh man, I missed that, high five. Yeah, Ms. Deschanel’s big bambi eyes have been peering at me from fliers on every telephone pole for the past month. I had no idea who she was until her band showed up.

I may have said this before, but while I feel bad for Keri Ferrell for being so clearly unwell, that whole story is also pleasingly Revenge of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl to me. All showing up out of nowhere being adorable and into obscure music and then absconding with people’s wallets.

Comment #123: purpleshoes  on  07/22  at  12:04 PM

Insufferable Music Snobs usually are pretty witty folks in my experience, and they generally have such a childish love of music that they often go from being too cool to dancing around like dorks within mere seconds of hearing something they really like.

Yep. I once befriended a barista who turned out to have *played in* not one, but TWO of my favorite college-era bands. I was in AWE of this guy, and utterly terrified of his vast musical knowledge, until we went to a bar and he did a full-on, Fosse-hands dance sequence to “Don’t Stop Me Now.”

Yeah. Hard to be intimidated after that.

Comment #124: Well, what?  on  07/22  at  12:08 PM

I am surprised that no one has mentioned that Zooey Deschanel is in a band.

They were on Elvis Costello’s TV show. She has a wonderful voice, and is a good songwriter. She manages to pull off that country lilt thing unironically, which is hard to do, both because it’s technically demanding and because it sounds like such a cliche in so many settings.

BTW, I think Spectacle is a great example of what Amanda’s talking about with “music nerds are just nerds”. Elvis Costello is so not a normal interviewer, he just asks people questions about where they got ideas for songs, and nerds out about their influences with them. The one where Elton John was on, that was just them being huge music nerds on TV. The one where he had Smokey Robinson on you could tell he could barely contain himself because it was just SO COOL that Smokey Robinson was there.

Comment #125: HonestB  on  07/22  at  12:19 PM

You know, actually I could just be bitter because I’m not that far out of college and hated college party chitchat in general. But having to have a preprepared list of musical tastes ready at all times was definitely my least favorite part.

Comment #126: purpleshoes  on  07/22  at  12:20 PM

t’s always funny to me that they do so more than film snobs or food snobs, who have the same childish love/inability to grasp why others don’t share it, but they aren’t turned into the punching bag for everyone who wants to feel superior to the hipsters.  My working theory is that music obsessives almost all were nerds and geeks in high school, but they’re seen as straying from the fold and becoming cool adults.

I don’t want to encourage the “music nerds suck” argument that’s about to break out here, but I think the reason people react more defensively to music snobs is that music practically saturates our daily lives in a way that movies or fine dining don’t (for most of us).  Every time I turn on the TV, there’s music playing.  I have my car radio tuned to a music station.  I love video games and they all have music playing.  So to the person who is insecure about their music tastes, there are potentially hours of every day where they can worry about being judged by a person far cooler than they.

Comment #127: Denise  on  07/22  at  12:22 PM

If the Apatow et al movies are anything to go by girls are encouraged to be humourless and focused at an early age, and boys are urged to defer their maturity for as long as possible; decades, if you’re “good” at it.

I’d disagree about Apatow’s portrayal of women, at least in the primary roles. The female leads, while definitely not the focus of the films, are provided with a past, an agency of their own, and hopes/dreams/ambitions—all of which are denied to the typical MPDG (and also to the typical male protagonist’s spouse/girlfriend/daughter). At the same time, he usually portrays them as fun and sexy and quirky—and more grounded (but not necessarily humourless) than the guys. As noted above, he seems to base these female leads (in those broad outlines) on his own wife.

Comment #128: Gracchus.  on  07/22  at  12:22 PM

BTW, I think Spectacle is a great example of what Amanda’s talking about with “music nerds are just nerds”. Elvis Costello is so not a normal interviewer, he just asks people questions about where they got ideas for songs, and nerds out about their influences with them.

I’m not a music geek/snob, and I find this show fascinating. For some reason, I take a lot of pleasure in watching people completely geek out* about a subject I know very little about.

* I prefer “geek” to “nerd” in this context—the latter implying insecurity.

Comment #129: Gracchus.  on  07/22  at  12:28 PM

Fair enough, Gracchus; I’ve only seen snippets of film and miles of commentary.  I’d be curious, though, if my take on all that re the lads (encouragement of arrested development and seeming acceptance of the notion that absent a woman boys simply don’t mature*) is accurate.  Is it, or am I getting the wrong read on the films?

* - I’ve always hated this trope, btw.

Comment #130: seeker6079  on  07/22  at  12:34 PM

Gracchus:
To me the word “nerd” has always had a subtitle of “ineffectual” whereas the word “geek” implies “so effectual in some areas that it gives off a weirdness vibe to norms” ... fwiw.

Comment #131: seeker6079  on  07/22  at  12:36 PM

Fair enough, Gracchus; I’ve only seen snippets of film and miles of commentary.  I’d be curious, though, if my take on all that re the lads (encouragement of arrested development and seeming acceptance of the notion that absent a woman boys simply don’t mature*) is accurate.  Is it, or am I getting the wrong read on the films?

Your take on the lads is pretty accurate as far as I’ve seen. I don’t necessarily consider it a bad thing, since Apatow usually shows both the negative and positive consequences of the Peter Pan Syndrome (e.g. negative—they live like pigs; positive—they haven’t been transformed into soul-dead arseholes by a decade in the rat race).

Basically, Apatow’s taken that hoary old Hollywood trope you (and I) hate so much, and given it a spin: the man-child is “rescued” by a hot and fun grounded woman, who understands his geeky quirks and only insists that he grow up a little bit, and doesn’t try to change the positive aspects of his extended adolescence that the audience finds so sweet and charming. I have no doubt that’s why his movies (and TV shows—he did “Freaks and Geeks” and “Undeclared”) are so popular. It’s a nice fantasy for both the men and women in the audience, as opposed to the MPDG movie (which is aimed at pleasing the men) or the “chick flick” rom-com (where the male leads are cardboard cyphers as empty as the MPDG).

Comment #132: Gracchus.  on  07/22  at  12:49 PM

Seeker: Really? To me “nerd” implies specialization while “geek” implies intensity. Our local sciences target school used to have a whole system for classifying nerd, geek, and dork. As I remember, there was an x-y-z axis of intelligence, specialization, and social dysfunction.

Comment #133: purpleshoes  on  07/22  at  12:50 PM

LOL at the “I love Darkthrone” alternate scene.

It’s true though, the MPDG is always just mildly alternative, listening to something that’s just off the top 40. I call that the ‘non-threatening indie chick’.

I’d like some rom-com to turn that on its head and the stuck up, junior marketing executive gets all hot on a tattooed chick who likes to scream out some Cradle of Filth (and seriously, as far as ‘extreme’ music go, CoF is not exactly that far off the mainstream).

Of course, since this is Hollywood you know she’ll turn out to be a Suicide Girl or something, and then she’ll break his heart because she’s just too promicuous, or she does webcam and he can’t deal, or what have you. Because everyone knows that tattoos = slut (not that having more than one sex partner in a month makes you a slut, anyway, except that I assume that’s how it will play out in anything by Hollywood). But then by the Power of Love he’ll get her to turn her life around and her hymen will magically reform itself and she’ll be monogamous and with our Hero forever. The “Girl Next Door” syndrome (what a rancid movie that was, the only question is why I was dumb enough to rent it thinking it wouldn’t be).

Comment #134: BlackBloc  on  07/22  at  12:52 PM

BlackBloc, I think there’s a reason why the true apotheosis of the Nonthreatening Music Girl on either side tends to be petite and weigh eighty pounds soaking wet.

I once had someone try to MPDG me for being in the middle of a translation project on Cuban propaganda rock of the late 60s, incidentally. I guess I do feel smug that even if I’m no one’s manic pixie anything at least I got pigeonholed as that on account of something massively obscure.

Comment #135: purpleshoes  on  07/22  at  01:01 PM

All I know is, I can’t wait to see the discussion of the “Scott Pilgrim” movie here.

Comment #136: Gracchus.  on  07/22  at  01:10 PM

Amanda, I suppose that if you are yourself a music nerd you can probably tell the difference between people who like music for music and people who are just into the oneupsmanship. I associate Dudes Who Are Into Music with the kind of people who do the hipster-compliance once-over upon meeting new people, and I dislike them accordingly. For the record, the same people I find grim in their musical competitiveness I tend to also find grim in their cinematic, literary, and sartorial competitiveness.

Well, I suppose some people are just grim and competitive in general, but that doesn’t seem to be the fault of being music fans. I tend to find that grimness much more prevalent in other areas, but in my experience, people who really love music, food, or movies tend to be more, not less grim.  It actually makes sense, of course, which is why if hipsters aren’t getting bashed for thinking they’re so cool, they’re getting bashed for having too much fun. 

The grim, self-serving scenesters that put you off do exist, but they often don’t know shit about music and are often targeted by the music geeks for abuse for it.  I know of one incident where a friend of mine fronted like he was in an up and coming band that didn’t exist to see a group of scenesters nod sagely. Which of course is the reason that when music geeks bash “hipsters”, they mean know-nothings who just like to show up and look cool, but then music geeks get bashed as “hipsters” for knowing a lot and being proud of it. 

I’m forced to conclude that hipsters are mythical creatures that, like the ever-present slut, is a person that everyone knows but no one is.

Comment #137: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  01:25 PM

Romantic comedies are, for the most part, a flawed genre anyway. They always end where they should actually begin.

Comment #138: MHF  on  07/22  at  01:30 PM

hm, yeah, I did end up in the anti-poseur rant, didn’t I. Where I was trying to start was more that I understand being interested in making things but I am nervous about any aspect of being rated by how well I consume things, and the commodification of music bothers me. True music nerds are probably less prone to this than most people if they’re really plunged into the inner workings of music-type things.

I guess to me there’s overtones there of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl herself - I think you could really boil the way she’s approached in these movies to “commodity fetishism” and have done. Like a really great album or a self-help book, really.

My sister is a hipster, by the way. And a really nice, nerdy person, though she does the coffeeshop hipster once-over better than anyone I know.

Comment #139: purpleshoes  on  07/22  at  01:50 PM

I found it interesting how people who do make judgments about the musical tastes of others usually end up befuddled when they find it difficult to classify me, especially when they see my CD and media file collection.  What’s more funny is that most of the musical snobs I’ve met have such narrow musical tastes to the point that they believe that their favored musical genre is the one and only definitive best music and everything else sucks and/or they don’t seem to realize that there is far more to music than what is available in their genre or in the US/Western world. 

One of the things which annoys me the most is the fact most musical snobs IME act like they know a lot about music and really hate you when you accidentally show them up by exhibiting musical tastes well outside of their experiences such as my interest in Chinese folk/Mando/canto-pop, 1930’s era Chinese pop music, Korean pop/house/hip-hop, Japanese rock/pop, Bollywood soundtracks, etc.  rolleyes

Interestingly enough, it was undergrad classmates who were conservatory students and thus, actual musicians who warned me that the vast majority of musical snobs who really love to play oneupsmanship tend to be BS artists who know shit about music and perform oneupsmanship as a way to assuage their own insecurities and to cover their limited knowledge of music.  This was further confirmed by several friends who play in local Indie rock and folk groups in Boston and NYC. 

In many ways, these music snobs are no different from older family members and their stuffy friends who felt that only classical music and sometimes Jazz are “real music” and everything else is rubbish.  And they wondered why I went through a strong anti-classical music phase in late high school/early undergrad.  rolleyes

Comment #140: exholt  on  07/22  at  01:51 PM

I seem to remember Amanda recently pimping a book where the couple connected because they were both fans of Big Star.  I don’t quite grasp how that’s different and thus didn’t immediately trigger said gag reflex.

(nothing against Love is a Mix Tape, of course, it’s a great book)

Comment #142: stormhit  on  07/22  at  02:26 PM

EVERYONE LIKES THE SMITHS

Gotta take exception to this; I find The Smiths intolerable. Also, if someone approached me in an elevator and said “I love that thing you’re reading/listening to/etc.” that would definitely make me think about that person, though the instant love angle in the trailer seems pretty overplayed.

Comment #143: Jerry Vinokurov  on  07/22  at  02:27 PM

BlackBloc, I think there’s a reason why the true apotheosis of the Nonthreatening Music Girl on either side tends to be petite and weigh eighty pounds soaking wet.

Most bro douches aren’t interested in a woman who could snap them in half if they said some seriously stupid misogynistic shit around her? smile

Comment #144: BlackBloc  on  07/22  at  02:50 PM

I just saw the movie and it was alternately cute and creepy. Tom starts off as a typical “nice guy” tm and stalkerish character but evolves into a merely clumsy, shallow, emotionally overcommitted romantic hero. He’s in love with a woman who doesn’t mind having sex iwthout committment and who doesn’t want committment. That, actually, isn’t enough for him. He’s a true romantic. But both characters are so shallow, and young, and uninteresting (whether because the writers are or because that is assumed to be the right thing for people that age) that they neither of them have an inner life *to share.* So though he wants to be her boyfriend, and she doesn’t want to be his girlfriend, its really no big loss since they share nothing but a vapid love of some music (more important to him than to her) and the occasional forays into porn and sex, and…well…that’s it. Their cute scenes are kind of lame facetiousness in Ikea. They don’t go to concerts, or plays, or read books, or do anything really. They neither of them seem to have gone to school, at least insofar as their conversation would reflect that. They are *both* all aabout the emo.

When she leaves him for the other guy the movie becomes, for five seconds, a tiny bit more complex. That scene that people complain about where she says that her marriage “just happened.” is a direct reference to the central point of the movie—love is ineffable. You either feel it or you don’t. He thought he felt it so he wanted to go at her full bore and “have” her as a girlfriend. She knew she didn’t “feel it” and so she was less interested in naming the relationship anything, or having it be permanent. Its true that at first she is described as a person who “believes” that love isn’t possible and that her marriage, at the end, is a reversal. But his “journey” is a similar one because he is described at the beginning as a person who (wrongly and foolishly and based on a misreading of the movie the graduate) thinks that only one great love is possible.  At the end of the movie *she* learns that love comes along and you follow after. And *he* learns that the one great love of your life can actually be the wrong love and he meets another girl and you know that she will be the “right” one for him.

The problem for me with the movie is that they are both, largely, uninteresting, charmless people. The jokes are mild, the angst mild and fake. The friends and younger sister utterly and deeply fake and tv sitcom like. I mean, shallow doesn’t begin to describe the writing and the acting.

 

 

 

 

 

 


aimai

Comment #145: aimai  on  07/22  at  03:03 PM

I will never forgive Deschanel for playing Trillian as a dappy, simpering MPDG in the Hitch-Hiker film.
In the books, Trillian was A FUCKING ASTROPHYSICIST.

Maybe we can blame the director for that?  But yeah, that was really disappointing.

Comment #146: lonespark  on  07/22  at  03:20 PM

Thanks, aimai. I liked the Ebert review, but yours was even more useful. It looks like a DVD rental, and it also looks like a waste of two talented and interesting actors (I understand why they were cast, and why they took the parts, but why stop with indie cred?).

From what I’m reading, the marriage part does seem like a betrayal of her character—falling in love doesn’t have to lead to marriage (it can, but it doesn’t seem likely here). I suppose it was either that or killing her off with some disease. Is it implied how long “Summer” sees the mystery guy before she makes it official?

Comment #147: Gracchus.  on  07/22  at  03:35 PM

I know I’m weighing in late here, but yesterday I finally caved and saw “Garden State.”

Which a friend had warned me against, but we’re both old fogies on our way to 60, and I’m a fan of (good) romantic comedies, which are difficult to come by these days.

Nevertheless, I found Garden State unbearable and the MPG annoying, and like no woman I’ve met in my life, and a weird variation of the movie “wish fulfillment woman”, the emo version, I guess.

She’s childish with no goals of her own, with a “quirky” life she’s willing to drop in an instant for depresso guy.

Just a bundle of “cute” tics, but acts like a grownup only to support emo boy in all his depresso glory.

Ugh, more a Martian than recognizable human.

And sorry, but I’m a student of screwball comedy and “Bringing up Baby” is one of the few I find unbearable for MPG Katherine Hepburn.

(Worse even than Carole Lombards rich ditz in My Man Godfrey, which I can enjoy by overlooking the superficial ditziness of Lombard’s performance.)

Give me the smart dames of All About Eve and Ball of Fire, or Hepburn in just about anything else than Bringing UP Babe.

Comment #148: judybrowni  on  07/22  at  03:41 PM

lonespark,
A script is usually sent to an actor’s agent before they ever accept (and the agent likely has stacks for a client such as Deschanel so she can pick and choose), so unless some major rewriting was done (for which she could have withdrawn), she knew exactly what she was getting into.

aimai,
Um, that film sounds even worse than I imagined. Most people who don’t want to get married don’t for a long time, if ever, if they mean it and it’s not just a conceit. I’ve found this more true of women (where it takes more fortitude to stick to that position considering the pressure) than of men, who often fall into marriage after a comfortable living-together period. At least that’s been true in my circle of friends and acquaintances. Even the young woman I mentioned in my first post said to me she wasn’t getting married to anyone until she was 25, which is exactly how old she was when she did get married (she got divorced three years later, so love never conquers all). I wouldn’t buy this movie on any level.

They got one thing right - most young people are too shallow for a movie to be made about their romances, even if they’re likable for their ingenuousness. It’s not worth paying to see.

Comment #149: mndean  on  07/22  at  03:44 PM

Ball of Fire? I’d rather see Stanwyck in Lady of Burlesque or Ginger Rogers in Roxie Hart. Hawks did alright by women until he got older, but Wellman usually gave them a bit more autonomy. Of course in Roxie Hart, you have to stomach the terrible ending (which does look tacked-on). and buy that she’d ever marry George Chandler.

Comment #150: mndean  on  07/22  at  03:50 PM

I realize that record collectors and music snobs make people feel insecure, I really do, but it’s always funny to me that they do so more than film snobs or food snobs

The food profile that makes people feel insecure is The Vegan.  Maybe it’s all vegetarians.  But it brings about a similar reaction in many people:  somehow this person (the Veg or the Music Snob) doesn’t just like what she or he likes, it gets read as superiority, and thus other people feel guilty and inadequate about what they like.  I don’t know why, but it happens. 

I’m trying to think of other tastes that inspire that nerddom/backlash dynamic, and the only other thing I can think of is scotch.  I’ve known some Insufferable Scotch Snobs/Nerds.  Niche-ier than wine or beer.

Comment #151: FlipYrWhig  on  07/22  at  04:47 PM

To clarify: There’s a genetic history of deafness in my family, and I can’t hear music the way most people can. I don’t know when something is off-key, because I can’t hear it. I can’t hear high pitches. Music is just not something I am able to participate in, to a large extent. So why would I want to hang out with people who are primarily interested in something in which I cannot participate? I’m sure you all think I live a bleak, joyless life because I don’t want to hear about other people’s bands or have them trash my playlist.

Comment #152: Entomologista  on  07/22  at  05:18 PM

I initially thought Amanda was being too harsh on all of this.  I just thought the trailer made the movie seem like just another indie romantic comedy.  Having read the spoilers online just now, I can’t decide if Joseph Gordon-Levitt is playing a self-absorbed douche or a Nice Guy.  Regardless, I am now on board with Amanda.

Comment #153: bouj  on  07/22  at  05:25 PM

“I seem to remember Amanda recently pimping a book where the couple connected because they were both fans of Big Star.  I don’t quite grasp how that’s different and thus didn’t immediately trigger said gag reflex.”

I imagine it’s roughly the musical equivalent of a comcis-geek couple initially connecting because they’re both fans of Carla Speed McNeil as opposed to both of them liking Batman.

Comment #154: preying mantis  on  07/22  at  05:54 PM

I imagine it’s roughly the musical equivalent of a comcis-geek couple initially connecting because they’re both fans of Carla Speed McNeil as opposed to both of them liking Batman.

Not Batman ... maybe Spawn or Judge Dredd (i.e. semi-mainstream).

Comment #155: Gracchus.  on  07/22  at  06:04 PM

I’d pay good money to see a feminist film where chicks kill zombies without the help of any man.

That’s pretty close to a fair description of _Aliens_.

_Alien_ is even better because not only does the chick kill the alien without the help of a man, but she does it in her underwear.

Comment #156: Tom P  on  07/22  at  06:07 PM

Speaking of blaming the actual women, did anyone else see the rant on “Amazing Girls” that was sort of a forerunner to the Manic Pixie Dream Girl thing?
http://thepetitesophisticate.blogspot.com/2007/12/soapbox.html

I sort of saw Lolita as a kind of Manic Pixie Dream Girl deconstruction. In the book, Humbert Humbert describes her physical appearance and grace and airs extensively, yet he never really gets around to talking about her actual personality. Lolita’s just a construct in his mind, and objectively she would probably be viewed as a regular adolescent girl. He loves her vulgarity, but hates the fact that she’s too vulgar (i.e. her sexual experiences at the camp). Then he starts to realize that she’s a real human being and reacts to being molested and manipulated the way a real human being would, and he resents her for it, saying how these American kids today aren’t innocent enough. He continues to pine after her and control her, but then she runs away because, as it turns out, his fantasies are unfeasible and damaging. Also, Lolita, like MPDGs, is short and thin and vulnerable and rather shallow, but that’s because she’s twelve.

Re: the 500 days trailer. At one point Summer says something like “you don’t think a woman could enjoy being free and independent?” And then the guy, in response, says she must be a lesbian. Ugh. Will skip.

Comment #157: Lenina  on  07/22  at  06:25 PM

FlipYrWhig: add to that Insufferable Coffee Snobs (though I am partly there myself, so no malice intended)—and I ain’t talking the Starbucks or Die crowd, I mean the Bean Fair crowd who wouldn’t be caught dead in a coffee franchise—and, perhaps, Insufferable Audiophiles, which are not to be confused with music geeks. There is overlap but I know audiophiles with limited, “mainstream” taste in tunes, too.  One friend of ours keeps his Ultra-Spendy5000 speakers in the middle of his living room because they sound better.  So the household just walks (well, trips) around them.  It defies reason but they sound better, so…that one increment of quality is just too valuable for him.

As someone who was a vegetarian for many years, I’m sensitive to the insecurity/overreaction of others, too, but I readily admit there are a few non-meaters who actually do OneUp carnies.  Most of the veg/vegans I know couldn’t care less what others eat and don’t project superiority, but one of them goes out of his way to carp about it constantly and guilt-trip others.  But that’s a fault of his personality, not his diet preference.

Shorter me: I think we find these types in every hobby.  I call them the “WAY of the Dragoners”, after that awesome character in BBC The Office. He’s no fiction. For the ultimate in nerddom/backlash, check out comics/SF/gamer geeks for good times.  They fit the “mostly cool, with some tools” as well.  I say this as a gamer geek—there are a couple of guys I know who are so WAY of the Dragon you want to shove them under a bus. They tend especially to get their “I know more than you do about it” dander up even more around women geeks.

Comment #158: Ranylt  on  07/22  at  06:40 PM

FlipYrWhig:

The food profile that makes people feel insecure is The Vegan.  Maybe it’s all vegetarians.  But it brings about a similar reaction in many people:  somehow this person (the Veg or the Music Snob) doesn’t just like what she or he likes, it gets read as superiority, and thus other people feel guilty and inadequate about what they like.  I don’t know why, but it happens.

When I experienced this as a vegetarian, it often seemed to me that I made people uncomfortable because I was forcing them to think of their food as a choice, not a matter of course.  I know lots of vegetarians, and no self-righteous ones, actually.  I think what people who don’t like vegetarians object to is realizing that there may be a moral dimension to what they eat that they hadn’t considered, and which may have arguments in its favor that will force them either to stop doing or to feel guilty about doing something that they enjoy.  That there are decent arguments for eating less, or no, meat, is obvious, and it’s obvious to the person feeling insecure, too: no one feels that their beliefs or behavior are threatened by a genuinely stupid argument.

All this is pretty insulting as the person supposedly responsible for these people’s feelings, of course.  It rarely occurs to people bothered by vegetarianism that I’m mature enough to respect people who do what they honestly believe they should, for reasons they can articulate; not people who do or don’t do the same things as me.  Almost as bad is being asked by (I’m sure well-meaning) people whether I care if they eat meat while they are with me.  As I’ve expressed to Matty all too often, it comes off as a more socially acceptable way to ask, “Are you a judgmental asshole who will try to control my personal decisions?”  It’s an excellent way to guarantee I’ll twitch.  So is saying “irregardless,” as it turns out, but that’s neither here nor there.

Comment #159: themmases  on  07/22  at  07:26 PM

Just yesterday I received a message from some random person, congratulating me on liking Talking Heads…  Because so few people “admit” to liking them.  I’m still not sure if he was trying to flatter me, or just an idiot.  It isn’t as if they’re some talentless and dated guilty pleasure, whom everyone loves but only listens to when they’re home alone.  The experience was even less impressive in real life, I can assure you.

I think several people I’ve dated have appreciated my taste in music, but generally not in a condescending way that celebrated my capacity to appreciate anything good, even with a boyfriend who knew more about music than anyone else I’ve met so far.  I can see why: I get a lot of pleasure out of showing people new things they turn out to enjoy, and since he wasn’t a condescending asshole, I assume he appreciated that I was receptive to his taste.  I managed to show him things he hadn’t heard of too, but that may be more of a point of pride for me.  It certainly wasn’t the obnoxious pat on the head I got the other day, and I don’t think it defined our connection.  But then, I get a certain sadistic joy out of reminding people who are attracted to me how human I am, so it probably couldn’t have.

Comment #160: themmases  on  07/22  at  07:38 PM

Almost as bad is being asked by (I’m sure well-meaning) people whether I care if they eat meat while they are with me.  As I’ve expressed to Matty all too often, it comes off as a more socially acceptable way to ask, “Are you a judgmental asshole who will try to control my personal decisions?” It’s an excellent way to guarantee I’ll twitch.

IME, it is better to be yourself in your culinary inclinations and assume the other person is mature enough to accept your tastes as they are by not asking them such questions.*  In most cases, nothing will come of it and the mealtime can be focused on more uplifting matters like mutual interests and fun hangout banter.  Only in the rare handful of cases did I meet a vegan/vegetarian who was judgmental about what I ate when I ordered what I wanted. 

Am still wondering if it was a coincidence that they all happened to be extreme busybodies who loved to boss others around in areas which are none of their business….and that I later found most of them were members of extreme radical groups like PETA.  :p


* Most recent demonstration without incident took place last weekend.  smile

Comment #161: exholt  on  07/22  at  08:16 PM

At the end of the movie *she* learns that love comes along and you follow after. And *he* learns that the one great love of your life can actually be the wrong love and he meets another girl and you know that she will be the “right” one for him.

So Mr. I’m A Young, White Middle-Class Guy Therefore I Am Inherently Interesting gets to bang Zooey Deschanel for a while and then meet Ms. Right Who Will Eventually Be His Fun-Draining Wife?

“But I WANTED to settle down with Zooey Deschanel! Honest I did! But she wouldn’t let me!”

I haven’t seen it, so please tell me I’m wrong.

Comment #162: RickMassimo  on  07/22  at  10:41 PM

At one point Summer says something like “you don’t think a woman could enjoy being free and independent?” And then the guy, in response, says she must be a lesbian.

OK, but that scene looks to be consciously played so that we’re all well aware that that guy is either a tremendous gaping asshole, or being deliberately “outrageous,” or both.  It’s funny (if it is) because he’s a douche, not because a free and independent woman must be a big ol’ queer.

Comment #163: FlipYrWhig  on  07/24  at  02:01 AM

The audience is so in tune with the sexist premise that most women are tedious that we’re actually expected to buy the idea that a man would be blown away by meeting a female Smiths fan.

That’s exactly the reaction I had too.
Exactly. Luckily I’m dating a guy who gets it and has the same reaction.
Guh.

Comment #164: Danica Lefse Queen  on  07/25  at  05:32 PM

“My working theory is that music obsessives almost all were nerds and geeks in high school, but they’re seen as straying from the fold and becoming cool adults.”

Really?  Because my working theory is that all of us non-music nerds tend to conflate you with all the popular kids in school who watched TRL obsessively.  Not because You Have Betrayed US!!! but because, not being music snobs, we actually think you are the same kids that watched TRL obsessively. Not because I, personally, now hear “The Clash!” and think “Carson Daly!” but because until I knew who the fuck The Clash were, how the fuck was I supposed to know the difference?

And, you know, the snobby attitude doesn’t always make it easy to figure this out.  Not necessarily talking about you - I’ve read a few of your music posts and can’t remember being turned off by them once I got started.  But when I first ran across them they made me go all “bleh”  just on general principle - because I figured it would just be another instance of someone tossing around names that I had never heard of, and then looking at me weird when I had no idea what they were talking about. And yes, I have most definitely gotten those those quite often, ‘cuz, um, yeah—->

This goes triple for nerds who are very much NOT auditory learners.  I was never into popular music until after college in part because until the internets and itunes came along - which made visual info about music that was linked to the actual music easy to hunt down -  I couldn’t keep any of the band or song names straight.  Even the stuff that was on the radio all. the. time.  It wasn’t that I didn’t like music, it was that I just couldn’t get a handle on it any more than most of my classmates could breeze through geometry like I did.  Since then, however, I’ve routinely had revelations like “oh that’s who The Cure is.” and the like.

really, srsly, I’m not kidding about that.  I was on iTunes one day maybe four years ago and thought, hey, everybody is always talking about The Cure, I wonder what they sound like.  Started thinking “huh…this looks famil…”  when I saw titles like “Manic Monday” Then I hit play a couple of times and was all “WTF?  How did I not realize until now that THIS is who The Cure is????”  Granted, I may be an extreme case - I was a complete nerd, absurdly introverted, and have the most abysmal auditory memory and learning capacity - but still.

And the whole being a young feminist prior to internet and without musically inclined and similarly feminist friends didn’t help either.  I still clearly remember one of my first jr. high slumber parties where we were supposed to dance to rock videos circa 1989 (I specifically remember “Pour Some Sugar On Me” and something that involved a car and a couple of women that looked like they had walked in from a different kind of video) and thinking “wtf?  that’s just creepy” and having nobody to point me towards Liz Phair, Indigo Girls, Ani DiFranco…much less Dar Williams or Janis Joplin.

iTunes, lyric searches on google, and the “music” field on lj has been my saving grace this past decade.

just sayin’

Comment #165: jennygadget  on  07/25  at  09:50 PM
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