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Next entry: Clear eyes, full hearts, can lose Previous entry: Harry Potter: the anti-geek

Many words spent on a marvelous prank

Religion

What is secularism?: That's the question that I've come to realize the atheist/secularist movement is actually dodging on a regular basis.  Which isn't unusual---most social justice movements are actually pretty hazy when it comes to defining their core values.  This causes less tension than you'd think on a day-to-day basis, but often leaves a movement with an Achilles' heel.  For instance, "feminism" is defined by some feminists as "promoting the interests of women" and by some (like myself) as "breaking down the gender binary and all its implications".  The latter also tends to link feminism more strongly with other social justice movements.  The vast majority of the time, the tension between these definitions doesn't matter---we're all anti-rape, all pro-equal pay, etc.---but then someone like Sarah Palin comes along and suddenly people firmly in camp #1 reveal that they're willing to overlook a lot in order to get another female face into office.  

Anyway, the tension over "secularism" I've noticed is that for some (like myself), it means a society that has as much religious freedom as possible and for others, it means a more aggressive approach to pushing religion out of the public square.  Most of the time, there's no tension.  We all object to "under God" in the Pledge, state promotion of religion, and allowing religious groups to replace good educational standards with religious ideology.  We think that having Congress open with prayers is unconstitutional, even if you diversify who's praying, because it still favors belief over non-belief.  But the tension between the two views comes out when it comes to questions of individual expression of faith.  Folks like me think that secularism means that the government should err on the side of liberty when it comes to individual expression of faith, in no small part because we are intensely skeptical that government restrictions on such expressions will be fairly applied, which makes it de facto establishment of religion.  (For instance, France claims to be "secular", but the government tends to target religious minorities more, which increases the sense that Catholicism gets favored treatment.)  We argue that things like FIFA banning the Iranian women's team for wearing hijabs doesn't do anything for secularism except send the signal that secularism is a cover for racist bullying.  We argue that this will gradually erode religious faith over time, as people are exposed in the public square to the diversity of religions and this provokes them to think things like, "Well they can't all be right, but they could all be wrong."  It's easier to believe that your faith is the one true faith when you don't ever really engage the fact that others believe differently. 

The other argument is that secularism should be promoted aggressively by the government, and that believers should feel that their faith can only be expressed in private.  This argument gets dismissed out of hand a lot, but I think it should at least be heard, even if I disagree.  The underlying assumption is that by having so much religion in the public square, even if the government is officially neutral, believers start to think they do have support.  So  you have problems like Christians not understanding why they get to pray in school, but they aren't allowed to dictate what's taught in science class.  If we had a strict private/public divide regarding religion, these secularists argue, it would reduce tensions between groups in public as well. This is the argument in France behind banning all religious gear in the schools.  The hope is that by wiping religion out of the public sphere, people would become less religious over time, as well, because without the ability to establish yourself as pious to others, most of the reason to be religious disappears.  Also, this method takes away the need to constantly be drawing the line over where someone else's religious freedom ends and other people's right not to be hassled begins, since so many expressions of faith are about controlling others.  For instance, most religions still teach that women are lesser than men on one level or another, and that means many people being visibly faithful will do things that are oppressive to women.  

Like I said, I don't think this tension actually means the two groups can't work together, and honestly, the notion that there's two distinct groups is untrue, anyway.  A lot of people drift between the two from situation to situation, which is one reason why I think the latter can't work, because you see so many atheists assume that religious people from their own background are more harmless than religious people of other backgrounds, and so will be camp one with their own people, but camp two with different people.  But for argument's sake, there's the two camps on what "secularism" means.  

I bring this up, because I'm genuinely curious what an Austrian man named Niko Alm was trying to accomplish by presenting himself as a Pastafarian and demanding (and obtaining) the right to wear a pasta strainer on his head for his driver's license picture.  The whole thing is clearly parodying the whole debate over whether or not other religious groups should be allowed to wear religious headgear in these pictures, which has mostly (always?) been a fight over whether or not Muslim women who wear hijabs or face veils should be allowed to wear them in these pictures.  He could be showing how stupid it is to allow any religious headgear---i.e., standing up for camp two---but if that was his goal, he utterly failed, because the result of his prank is that nothing bad happened because he was allowed this freedom.  

Regardless of his intent, I think that his prank best works as a defense of camp one.  Alm had to wait three years for this right, demonstrating neatly how having strict limits on what counts as freedom of religion end up creating pointless bureaucracy when it would just be easier to let people do what they want, as long as it doesn't  interfere with anyone else's rights.  But Alm also managed to send up the most common criticism of camp one from camp two.  Camp two tends to tell camp one that they're too tolerant and that we're pandering to religious people, and that we live in fear of pointing out that religion is fundamentally silly.  That's true in some cases, but not always!  By posing with a pasta strainer on his head, Alm managed to show how you can both strike for religious freedom while also arguing, through parody, that religion is fundamentally stupid.  

So, well-played, Alm, and I wish you well in your further endeavors to destablize religious protectionism by getting Pastafarianism recognized as an official religion by the government.  

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:44 AM • (109) Comments

The hope is that by wiping religion out of the public sphere, people would become less religious over time, as well, because without the ability to establish yourself as pious to others, most of the reason to be religious disappears.

This. So much this that I cannot believe how excellent this statement is at summing up volumes of analysis in one simple sentence. Brilliantly done.

Comment #1: annie0313  on  07/15  at  09:40 AM

What I find interesting is that Niko Alm “was asked to submit to a medical interview to check on his mental fitness to drive.” 

I doubt the police require that of Ultra-Orthodox Jews, Muslim women, Sikh men, nuns, or anyone else wearing religious headgear.

Comment #2: Iris  on  07/15  at  10:22 AM

I do think there’s evidence that an aggressive approach to secularism is more effective at discouraging religiosity, but that said, it has to be balanced against human rights.  And I tend to favor human rights.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/15  at  10:22 AM

I’m clearly firmly in Camp 2 wrt governmental IDs.  I do believe that wearing something that obscures all your features is absolutley not acceptable.  On pretty much everything else, however, I’m a Camp 1 person. 
(Or am I reading too much into your example?  A veil hides your face; a scarf or other hiding your hair though?  It doesn’t really serve any purpose to restrict hats, turbins, scarves, whatever.)

Comment #4: helen w. h.  on  07/15  at  10:25 AM

I think it’s true that it’s hard to draw a bright line between the two camps.

The other argument is that secularism should be promoted aggressively by the government, and that believers should feel that their faith can only be expressed in private.

At a philosophical level, this sums up my position pretty well, but the emphasis ought to be on promotion of secularism, not suppression of religion. What does that mean? Governments need not interfere with how people choose to dress themselves or anything like that. What they have to take a strong stand for, however, is ensuring that everyone has the skeptical and critical-thinking skills they need to ask the right questions. And, while I’m generally not much of a fan of nationalism, I think it might be useful for governments to promote a welcoming but also well-defined sense of national identity, so that people can have a feeling of belonging without the need to join a community based around shared belief in superstitious nonsense.

Comment #5: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/15  at  10:27 AM

Actually, something bad did happen.  He was forced to undergo a psychological evaluation before they granted him his license.  Do you suppose that is required for people wearing more common religious headgear?  I don’t.

That requirement was a clear demonstration that the government in question favored some religious faiths and practices more than others.

As well, of course, as a demonstration of the well known fact that there is sanity in numbers.  One person wearing a pasta strainer on his head is crazy, or at least suspected of being crazy.  One hundred wearing pasta strainers is a “cult” and dangerous.  One hundred thousand is a deeply respected religious institution and mocking the strainers is horrible, wrong, and unforgivable.

Comment #6: sotonohito  on  07/15  at  10:30 AM

I do think face veiling destablizes the camp one arguments to just let people do what they want.  But more research is the answer, not just automatically assuming we know how much of a burden face veiling is.  What do they do in countries where face veiling is more common?  Do they allow women to wear veils in pictures?  How does that work out?  Since women who veil in pictures will presumably veil in public, you could also argue that the picture with the veil would be easier to match to the person.  Or not—-this is an empirical question, not a value question.  But it is worth pointing out that to match the person to the ID, you’d have to have a woman unveil in front of a cop when he looked at her ID—-or whoever took her ID.  Requiring someone to disrobe on any level in public is something that should only be undertaken under extreme circumstances.

I’m just saying, the question is far more complex than simply declaring that the line is drawn at covering the face.  What about eyeglasses?  They also obscure your features.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/15  at  10:34 AM

Soto, I’m hoping you misunderstood and are arguing in good faith.  In that case, what I meant—-and what I thought was obvious—-was that nothing bad happened to his society or his government by giving him this right.  When you’re balancing a human right against “something bad”, you generally mean to everyone else.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/15  at  10:36 AM

Amanda. Last time I got an identity picture taken in Canada, I was asked to remove my eyeglasses.

Comment #9: LC  on  07/15  at  10:40 AM

Really?  Okay, well again, it’s an empirical question.  Eyeglasses are an iffy thing because the flash tends to reflect in them and so you don’t look in the picture like you would in real life.  But now everyone who looks at your ID and then you has to concentrate a little harder, because you don’t actually resemble your picture.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/15  at  10:41 AM

And by “empirical”, I mean, it’s measurable how much facial obstruction makes it hard to match an ID to a person.  It’s not a values question at all.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/15  at  10:42 AM

Almost a decade ago England recognized the Jedis as a religion.  Do they get to wear their robes on their IDs?

Comment #12: cynickal  on  07/15  at  10:46 AM

Wouldn’t iris scanning be a decent replacement for identification by facial recognition?

Comment #13: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/15  at  10:56 AM

You have to admit he looks pretty good in that pasta strainer, though.

Comment #14: t-ster  on  07/15  at  11:01 AM

Oh, agreed. And the rule is that too much reflection means the photo is invalid because it obscures facial features. The practical effect has been that almost every photographer just asks you to remove your glasses.

Comment #15: LC  on  07/15  at  11:05 AM

If our veiled Muslim example woman went out in public, the male relatives she must have around her at all times can vouch for her identity.  And since she can’t legally drive a car anyway, she doesn’t even need a driver’s license, let alone worry about having an un-veiled picture on it.

See?  Problem solved. 

Any problems the Police State causes, whether secular or religious, can be fixed by more application of Police State methods…

Comment #16: MikeEss  on  07/15  at  11:26 AM

Almost a decade ago England recognized the Jedis as a religion.

No, they (or rather we, meaning Britain) did not. A fair number of people put their religion down as “Jedi” for the census, in the erroneous belief that it would lead to such a result, but they were wrong and it did not.

The closest we have to “official” recognition of religions (other than the established State churches) is registration of religious organisations with The Charity Commission. There are currently no Jedi organisations registered with The Charity Commission.

Comment #17: Dunc  on  07/15  at  11:39 AM

Please point to where I have objected to the freedom of speech.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/15  at  11:39 AM

”...now if we could only get you thinking this way for the freedom of speech…”

We all already believe that there should be very few (government) limits on free speech.

Come on this blog and say just about anything you want, and the government should stay out of it.  Same for RedState, Str0mFr0nt, Kos, and anything else.

Private restrictions on free speech?  Here, there, and everywhere.  And they’re perfectly legal and defensible.  Pandagon is Amanda’s and Jesse’s space.  Pandagon is a place of business.  There are rules.  Break the rules and suffer the consequences.

I would think even a “libertarian” such as yourself would understand these things… 

OTOH, re the 2nd Amendment, I don’t think we should arm infants with fully automatic weapons.  You apparently disagree.  I have a right to call you insane, and you can say the same of me.  I’m still correct…

Comment #19: MikeEss  on  07/15  at  11:44 AM

Oh please. Really? Citizens United? You bought that piece of legal hogwash? Good god, you might actually be too dumb to even be the troll we thought you were.

Comment #20: Well, what?  on  07/15  at  11:59 AM

I’ve been part of the secularism movement for years. Instead of noticing 2 camps, I’ve noticed that individuals when grouped, have a smear of ideologies.

However, to simplify; many align themselves as “moderate” atheists and “new atheists” and a smattering of “don’t care at all” and “other” atheists.

Amanda, I don’t entirely agree with you definition of the 2 camps though I am not going to say that you are wrong. We’ve just come to different conclusions based on a group that is ideologically kinda all over the place as atheist is nothing more than a lack of belief, and where one goes from that position can be anywhere.

Based on you definitions I guess I fall in camp 1. I want the government to be secular and all government function to be secular, but I also want people who are religious to be free to be religious, to be able to pray or express their religion as private individuals even at government functions so long as they are not acting as a representative of the government at that function.

But I don’t consider myself a moderate atheist and I think that theism is harmful to both individuals and society. Some theists may argue that there is no harm when it makes people feel good, give them hope, etc, but I’ll contend that belief in things that are not real makes it harder to impossible to perceive reality and that more than just those theists are put in danger and are harmed because of the beliefs of the theists.

I am also appalled by theists who actively force their world view, dogma, rules, start wars, and other religious baggage on everyone else so they can appease whatever deity they worship, if appeasing that deity is even the reason they do what they do to society. They can’t even demonstrate that their deity exists and yet expect everyone to worship it and live by its rules.

Maybe you should have put a third camp in your article, “militant” atheist. You know the atheists who talk about religion and secularism and write articles and blog posts about it, maybe even, *gasp* a book or *faints* art about the topic. Then we’d all be in that camp here. :D

Comment #21: R.T.  on  07/15  at  12:03 PM

No, they (or rather we, meaning Britain) did not.
Comment #18: Dunc

Bah!  I’ll never trust Google again.

“Please point to where I have objected to the freedom of speech.”
Citizen’s United?

Comment #20: anoNY2

Money =/= speech
Of course realizing that would also need you to recognize that corporations =/= person, seeing as a person is not imortal, while corporations are.  People have responsibilities to society, no corporation has ever been drafted or served on jury duty. People are not established through charters, while corporations have charters of incorporation.  That doesn’t even touch on the fact political ads are required to run regardless of their truthfulness.

Really, Anon, could you be more ignorant of how the world works?

Comment #22: cynickal  on  07/15  at  12:04 PM

Being against the Citizen’s United decision makes you against free speech?!  That decision basically boiled down to “If you’re rich, you get more rights”.  That doesn’t sound like rights to me at all.

Comment #23: Antigone  on  07/15  at  12:05 PM

”...I also don’t think we should arm infants…”

See!  You want restrictions on the 2nd Amendment too!  Are you turning into some sort of radical leftist hippie socialist of some sort?...

***

Re Citizen’s United:

You agree there should be some limits on the 2nd Amendment, because there are some things that are so insane we need to put restrictions on them to keep them from being abused.  Which I’m glad to hear.

But when it comes to the “free speech” rights of the enormous non-human-but-treated-like-people corporations in this country, who previously had unbelievable resources available to them to promote their POV, and have even more now, you don’t think there should be any limits on their behavior?  WTF?

Hell, I’ve already got the distilled essence of Rupert Murdoch’s political philosophy coming at me from every angle, 24/7, let alone Archer Daniels Midland, General Electric, Disney, and all the rest.  And you think they need to have even more access to the public sphere?...

Comment #24: MikeEss  on  07/15  at  12:09 PM

The government argued in the case that it could ban books that mentioned the election as well, how do you feel about that?

You mean Unfit For Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry

Really, Anon, could you be more ignorant of how the world works?

 

Comment #25: cynickal  on  07/15  at  12:12 PM

The glasses removal was toyed with here in the US for some jurisdictions and for passports because the glasses can hinder facial recognition software.
A woman de-veiling is generally only forbidden in front of a man.  You are assuming the cop would always be male (though not a bad assumption that this would often/generally be true), and that a stopped veiled woman would not be able to make a case for insisting on a female inspector for what is similar to a strip search. 
I find it problematic that a person in a veil could be pulled over for something and have the offense go onto the record of some person who is on an ID also in a veil unless some other form of verification were readily available.  I should think that the people who wear veils would find that problematic as well. 
Say a woman borrows her sister’s car (or some strange woman steals it).  The car owner’s driver’s license is in it (not wise, but I know people who do this).  The driver procedes to do something to get pulled over/given a ticket.  If the person driving and the owner are both veiled, how is the person stopping/citing them to know if the driver presents the other person’s ID?  (not that this might not happen already with two people who look similar, it’s just more possible)
Note this is only valid if another way of verifying ID is not readily available.

Comment #26: helen w. h.  on  07/15  at  12:17 PM

Jesus, leave it to a libertarian to derail a thread into how money is speech.

Every individual retains their freedom of speech regardless of whether or not they are part of a corporation. That is axiomatic. However, the corporation itself, that is, the corporate entity created by action of the state has no liberties at all, whatsoever, beyond what it is allowed by construction. See how easy that distinction is?

Comment #27: Jerry Vinokurov  on  07/15  at  12:21 PM

Wouldn’t iris scanning be a decent replacement for identification by facial recognition?

Ideally, yes.  But while we’re waiting for the price of iris-scanners to become affordable to the vast majority of government and private entities, we have to deal with the reality that most people don’t have them yet.

Comment #28: bananacat  on  07/15  at  12:24 PM

The case was about a documentary, which most certainly is speech.

“The Court overruled Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce, which had previously held that a Michigan campaign finance act that prohibited corporations from using treasury money.”

Just because people form a corporation doesn’t mean they lose their freedom of speech, or of the press.

Strawman.  At no time did any of the laws struck down by Citizens United prohibit an individual citizen from speaking out or cause them to lose their rights to freedom of speech.  The laws overturned were civil ordinaces that followed the precedence that you can’t yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater.

““If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech.” He also noted that since there was no way to distinguish between media and other corporations, these restrictions would allow Congress to suppress political speech in newspapers, books, television and blogs.”

Comment #29: cynickal  on  07/15  at  12:25 PM

So are you saying that you are perfectly fine with the government restricting freedom of speech..?

So your “rational” view of the situation is that because I don’t think we should arm infants, I should also think the freedom of speech should be restricted by the government?

Ah, thanks. Hard to get through the morning without a few “belligerent so” strawmen.

Comment #30: Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist  on  07/15  at  12:26 PM

I’m a theist and a secularist.  I think people should be generally free to practice their religion, just as they should be generally free to express their political beliefs, unless that practice infringes on another’s liberty, damages another’s property, or risks physical harm to another.  The government should not be promoting either a particular kind of religious belief over others or religious belief over non-belief (or vice-versa, actually), nor should it base laws or policies on a particular tenet of a particular religion.  Atheism and religious beliefs of all stripes ought to be free to participate in the market of ideas, and people should be free to seek to persuade others of the correctness of their beliefs, so long as that persuasion does not involve coercion or fraud.  I think everyone is better off if ideas can be freely expressed and debated; presumably, the “best” idea (whatever that means in a particular context) will eventually triumph, but at the very least, the negative effects of a bad idea will be weakened and watered down by the existence of competing ideas, and everyone’s belief systems are better off for having to face the reality that others believe differently.

Comment #31: Kit-Kat  on  07/15  at  12:30 PM

Whoa whoa whoa, cynikal brought that up, not me!

Comment #36: anoNY2

No, you brought it up trying to catch Amanda with a Gotcha.

Ok, so the NYT suddenly can be censored by the government…

Comment #38: anoNY2

Yes, if you’re both completely ignorant and illerate.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

Comment #32: cynickal  on  07/15  at  12:42 PM

“Furthermore, your argument that the free speech needs to be restricted is that there is already too much speech from those entities.”

A little scenario:

There is a townhall meeting every week.  All the citizens of the town are invited to discuss their grievances and promote their political views.

Every week, a huge, muscular fellow, surrounded by intimidating body guards, and carrying a bullhorn, muscles his way to front and center and proceeds at enormous volume to shout out his talking points of the week.  He is so loud no one else can speak and be heard, he’s physically threatening, as are his body guards, he has no normal sense of appropriate behavior, let alone shame, and so there is no practical way to keep him from de facto eliminating the free speech rights of everyone else.

There are laws regarding the conduct of these townhalls, but the mayor has just told everyone the laws are no longer enforceable, and as long as there isn’t any actual physical violence, there’s nothing she can do to stop Mr. Big.

Is that the way you think the marketplace of ideas in this country should be conducted?  One person/corporation with unlimited strength and resources should be allowed to simply drown out everyone else, regardless of the harm is does to everyone else’s right to free speech?...

Comment #33: MikeEss  on  07/15  at  12:42 PM

@Amanda, yes I did misunderstand.  Though I’m not at all sure it’s good for society at large if it is established that being visibly different is grounds for denying licenses until a psych evaluation is conducted.

As far as veils go, I will note that Saudi requires unveiling for ID purposes.  Not that they’re well known for freedom, but it does tend to take the values question out of things (or at least reduce it significantly).  I think that in non-Islamic nations there’s almost certainly some grounds for assuming that requiring unveiling for ID involves values to a degree.  OTOH, if the object is to provide a photo that can identify a person’s face, than I do think it’s relatively clear that photographing that person wearing a face obscuring garment is probably less than optimal.

Though I’ll admit that as a relatively hardcore secularist my fist thought is that granting exceptions to general rules on religious grounds is a very bad idea.  From my POV, freedom of religion is not the same as getting exceptions to laws and rules because you’re religious.  On the gripping hand, clearly laws could be written with the intent of harassing members of particular religions.  But I don’t think laws asking for a clear photo of a person’s face on an ID is an example of that last possibility.  Requiring all applicants for a driver’s license to eat a strip of bacon would clearly be an example of a law designed to harass both Muslims and Jews.  Requiring unveiling, I’m not at all seeing that as being a harassing law.

@anoNY2: Speech and money are different things.  Otherwise bribery would be legal: “no, I didn’t bribe that person, I just spoke to him with the hundred dollar bills I gave him”.  Furthermore, corporations aren’t people and therefore have no rights, only privileges.

I don’t think we should be going wild restricting corporate speech, but neither do I think we need to respect corporate speech as a right.  Restrictions that I would fight tooth and nail if they were being placed on individuals I can see as perfectly acceptable for corporations.

Comment #34: sotonohito  on  07/15  at  12:45 PM

Going back to my comment about the freedom of the press, it sure would be hard today to operate a publishing business (press) without forming a corporation!

Comment #40: anoNY2

Strawman.  But now you’re just playing semantics.  Take a business class on Articles of Incorporation.  It spells out clearly what a corporation can and can’t do and it is very easy to distinguish a corporation incorporated as “press” in relation to all other incorporations for business purposes.

Strawman.  Those “theater” ordinances are premised on public safety, something that can’t be said for BCRA and the prior campaign finance decisions.

Incorrect, they are directly related as I continue to point out.  When media outlets are REQUIRED to publish false information it is affecting public safety, just as lying about food content, pharmaceutical affects or yelling “Fire” in a crowded theater.  There is no difference between publishing “Hillary is going to set up Death Panels” than there is in publishing “McDonalds food will give you syphilis”

Comment #35: cynickal  on  07/15  at  12:57 PM

Ok, so the NYT suddenly can be censored by the government…

You are too dumb for words. The government cannot censor the NYT, or anyone else, because content-based censorship is prohibited by the First Amendment. That doesn’t mean that the NYT is free to donate infinity dollars to any political cause that it likes. The question is whether a corporation donating money to the making of a film is protected; it shouldn’t be, as corporations are not people and have no rights in and of themselves.

Comment #36: Jerry Vinokurov  on  07/15  at  01:02 PM

YES, a corporation making a movie, book, or newspaper is literally exercising the freedom of the press!  Now, why can this freedom, about which Congress “shall make no law,” be restricted by the government in regards to some corporations, but not others?

Comment #44: anoNY2

Because government has the right to decide who can incorporate and who can’t.  It can set restrictions on the actions of said bodies.  Its job is to prevent the suppression of rights of other bodies by protecting all citizens.  Even at the expense of the full and complete freedom.

It’s the PRIMARY PURPOSE of laws!

You inability to grasp even the basic concepts of rules and laws makes me wish to use full rights and privileges to forsake the social contract that is embodied in the rules of society and kinetically express my speech.

Ok, enough troll food.

Comment #37: cynickal  on  07/15  at  01:04 PM

Ok, so the NYT suddenly can be censored by the government…

Belligerent So pivoting to Ominous Ellipsis! This is some top-notch trollery.

Comment #38: Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist  on  07/15  at  01:05 PM

What do they do in countries where face veiling is more common?  Do they allow women to wear veils in pictures?  How does that work out?

I can’t be the only one old enough to remember when driver’s licenses didn’t have photos at all, can I?  We seem to be coming back around to that, though, with licenses that are good for 8 years or more.  I dunno about you, but my appearance can and has changed dramatically in periods far shorter than 8 years.

“Who are you renewing this license for sir?”
“Me.  That’s me!”

The glasses removal was toyed with here in the US for some jurisdictions and for passports because the glasses can hinder facial recognition software.

They made me take off my glasses for a DL photo in NY in 1994.  The resulting photo looked nothing like me.

Comment #39: Jake Squid  on  07/15  at  01:07 PM

“I get it, the corporations are making all the documentaries and so the individuals can’t make them?  Where is this corporation muscling out individuals?  How does a corporation making a movie impinge on my right to free speech?”

There were limits on this sort of thing.  Until the SCOTUS threw out 100 some odd years of precedent. 

So now there are really no limits.  If Really Big Corporation wanted to buy out all the ad spots in one market to argue against or in favor of some legislation, there is literally nothing that could stop them.  Is that what you want?

Hell, why stop there at Citizens United?  There are still laws in place that limit corporations’ direct contributions to politicians.  Why not throw those out too.  No limits on anything! 

Then we can go the final step and just let the politicians use their massive amounts of corporate money to pay voters directly for the votes they need.  The drastic reduction in political ads would certainly make the airwaves and the satellites more pleasant.  And god knows the results wouldn’t be a hell of a lot different from what they are now, in the decades after the fairness rules were tossed and the limits on press monopolies were shuffled aside.

After all, we don’t need a lot of viewpoints (that’s just messy and inefficient), just one point of view that is expressed so penetratingly and effectively that there is no room left for any competition…

It’ll be a libertarian paradise…

Comment #40: MikeEss  on  07/15  at  01:17 PM

.... without the ability to establish yourself as pious to others, most of the reason to be religious disappears.

Wow.  I love this.

Comment #41: stubbles  on  07/15  at  01:17 PM

...as the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster matures over the decades, we can look forward to “...He touched me with His noodly appendage, but in a bad place!”  Add to that a few stories of FSM ministers stealing funds from the collection plate to spend on hookers, fleets of Rolls Royce’s paid for with money from parishioners who’ve given everything to the church, and an air-conditioned doghouse or two, and then we’ll know that the COFSM has truly arrived as an alternative religious belief.

Oh, and we need a good schism, like one group claims that pasta featuring other ingredients than grain flour are heretical, and meatballs must contain meat and not be vegetarian, and marinara is okay, but pesto isn’t…

Comment #42: MikeEss  on  07/15  at  01:39 PM

anoNY2, your behavior in this thread is why people don’t like libertarians. Because everything with them is always about “Me Me Me.”

Comment #43: Tyro  on  07/15  at  01:45 PM

I2@13, “Wouldn’t iris scanning be a decent replacement for identification by facial recognition?”

Only if every cop—and every cashier—has a scanner handy.

Comment #44: Dr. Psycho  on  07/15  at  01:59 PM

This is what the US government requires for passport photos:

“Taken in clothing that you normally wear on a daily basis:

  * Uniforms should not be worn in your photo, except religious clothing that is worn daily.
  * Do not wear a hat or head covering that obscures the hair or hairline, unless worn daily for a religious purpose. Your full face must be visible, and the head covering must not cast any shadows on your face.
  * Headphones, wireless hands-free devices or similar items are not acceptable in your photo.
  * If you normally wear prescription glasses, a hearing device or similar articles, they may be worn for your photo.
  * Dark glasses or non-prescription glasses with tinted lenses are not acceptable unless you need them for medical reasons (a medical certificate may be required)
  * Glare on glasses is not acceptable in your photo. Glare can be avoided with a slight downward tilt of the glasses or by removing the glasses or by turning off the camera flash.”

Comment #45: Nimue  on  07/15  at  02:00 PM

”“Are you looking to reinstate the Fairness Doctrine?

...no, I’m looking for a way to cope with the fact that the USA is increasingly looking like Wiemar Republic-era Germany, just before an inspirational (to some) WWI vet, unsuccessful painter, and rabble-rouser from Austria took over the reins of power and set out to right what he felt were wrongs committed against the fatherland, and got the backing of Krupp and other immense and well connected firms to do what he wanted to do…

Comment #46: MikeEss  on  07/15  at  02:07 PM

@anoNY2: “This just brings me back to the argument that this would allow the government to censor newspapers. “

Like I said, some restrictions.  News agencies are one thing.  PAC’s are another.  We can restrict the speech of the latter without interfering with the former.

An outfit formed expressly to publish news is different from an outfit formed expressly to advance a politician or political position, different laws apply.

And, anyway, the NYT has already been censored.  Not by law, but merely by the Bush admin asking them to suppress stories about his illegal wiretapping program.  And they did.  They sat on the stories until after the elections in 2004.  So you can’t scare me with threats that the NYT might be censored if we don’t permit the Koch brothers to buy elections retail, the NYT is already being censored.

Comment #47: sotonohito  on  07/15  at  02:12 PM

Actually, I have many fewer problems with corporations making the film themselves. At least in that situation they would be forced to explicitly identify themselves with the product.

Again, corporations are not people. They aren’t even an agglomeration of people. They’re just entities that exist on paper, creations of the state. And as far as I’m concerned, engaging in political advocacy of any kind is an abuse of the privilege of being a corporation. In your private life as a citizen, you may do whatever you like.

Comment #48: Jerry Vinokurov  on  07/15  at  02:13 PM

Well, this was a clusterfuck of a thread, all because anoNY2 had to narcissistically shit all over it with her obsessio with citizens united instead of the actual thread topic, dumbass. This is why libertarians don’t get invited to parties. No one likes them or wants them around.

Comment #49: Tyro  on  07/15  at  02:28 PM

“This is the argument in France behind banning all religious gear in the schools.”

That’s not right. The right to wear whatever for religious reasons in public has nothing to do with public promotion of the garbs, which is the equivalent of religious groups dictating science curriculum.

Comment #50: Khal Mojo  on  07/15  at  02:33 PM

Pretty sure it wasnt to show the double standards but the stupidity of allowing these sorts of things such as religious accomodations at the expense of practical value. Also the requirements were as long as the face is to be shown then thats all thats allowable which he complied with. The majority of issues have come from women that want to wear veils. Seriously, I have no problem with a burqa/niqab ban. I also think that these women shouldnt be allowed to drive (I would be cited if I wore a beekeeper outfit while driving, religion is no excuse for exceptionalism. Safety first) and that starting your daughter down wearing these sorts of clothes at age 9 and even under 9 should be considered child abuse similar to how I think the Quiverfull movement should be heavily broken up since I think the way these people treat their girls is child abuse.

Comment #51: Bean Slap  on  07/15  at  02:40 PM

Re: bananacat @ 34, Dr. Psycho @ 61

Implementation need not be perfect or even particularly convenient at the outset in order for something to be worthwhile. I mean, I take your points that there would be expense and inconvenience, but I think at least one of the two is inevitable at the moment regardless of the given solution.

Plus, I’m not ashamed to admit that, having grown up on a steady diet of science fiction, stuff like iris scanners just screams “super keen” at me and I want to see more of all of it.

Comment #52: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/15  at  02:50 PM

“Since women who veil in pictures will presumably veil in public, you could also argue that the picture with the veil would be easier to match to the person”

OMG that is so sad! That doesnt even make sense! Apparently she’ll always wear the same veil over and over? Apparently she wont change her mind and decide not to wear the veil? This is PCism gone overboard (and I mean the real Pcism not the lies used to get people to tolerate bigotry-actual PCism)! We need to know what she looks like. How can you tell one veiled woman from another? I dont think people realize that people like Amanda take the ultra-conservative Saudi lobby’s arguments rather than actual logic as their foundation, nonetheless liberal theory as their foundation. Sadly it gives others the idea that liberals are more bleeding heart than critical thinkers. We cant let them have that delusional edge over us. The veil isnt even required by Islam. I’m also not helping out a severe sexual double standard that perpetuates rape culture. Theres nothing more unsettling than to see a robed/veiled woman in the heat of summer holding hands with her boyfriend/husband whose wearing board shorts, tank top, sunglasses and sandals. He eats freely at the cafes and she has to tuck it awkwardly and ill-habited under her veil. Give me a break….of course its sexist! Its screaming sexist, AND homophobic AND ableist. Some of these women dont even have slits for their eyes. Its literally an entire veil over their face!

Comment #53: Bean Slap  on  07/15  at  02:56 PM

Sunglasses, bikinis, winter head gear ARE NOT RELIGIOUS! They also werent invented by a rape culture. Literally if a rapist was a fashion designer he’d come up with the burqa/veil. Anyways, they DO tell you in many places to take off all obscuring head gear such as when you walk into a 7/11, not to walk around nude and to not wear heels in historic places because it erodes the antique original flooring. Religion is not an excuse to flout common sense.

Comment #54: Bean Slap  on  07/15  at  03:00 PM

#8

Well then why dont we allow FGM? They arent doing anything bad to others so why not allow it….or breast ironing…..or foot binding? And actually the burqa IS causing harm to other since it perpetuates a rape culture. It is a literal fabric philosophy blaming women for rape. It also causes health problems for the women among many other things. National security and normal communication being one of many obvious reasons to not have it in America. Its archaic and the veil isnt even required by Islam. Its just like the halal and kosher methods of slaughtering…..the national requirement should be that we slaughter animals in the most ethical manner possible-no exceptions based on religion. Originally I thought halal and kosher were simply a little prayer you gave over the food before you ate it which to me seemed like no big deal. I then found out that kosher and halal is a form of slaughtering which is more about religion than pain-free slaughter. I now check to make sure the meat foods I eat are not kosher or halal.

Comment #55: Bean Slap  on  07/15  at  03:09 PM

Re: Bean Slap @ 74

I’m inclined to say that private enterprises do (and should) have the discretion to make reasonable (i.e. rationally connected) rules restricting entry or service based on things like attire. I don’t know that the government necessarily has (or ought to have) as broad a discretion when it comes to that kind of thing.

As for whether veils are required by Islam (@ 72) I tend to think that governments need to stay completely out of theological or doctrinal disputes within religion, because nothing good can come of going down that particular rabbit-hole.

Comment #56: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/15  at  03:09 PM

#31 helen,
What is a man? Is a XY chromonsomed woman looking adrogen insensitive syndromed person a man? What about queer people? What about transpeople?The burqa isnt just an archaic dress form, they want everyone to revolve around this archaic system of beliefs that formed the burqa. Its homophobic and sexist. These women simply shouldnt drive then if this is such an issue for them.  These women are responsible for their own religious beliefs. Gawd, why do we get these archaic ultra-conservative women but not these poor girls/women from Afghanistan that want to come to the west so they can shed the burqa and the archaic treatment of females and celebrate the opportunities given to them that were hard-won by females before them?

Comment #57: Bean Slap  on  07/15  at  03:25 PM

So you have problems like Christians not understanding why they get to pray in school, but they aren’t allowed to dictate what’s taught in science class.

I really don’t blame them for being confused. Religion isn’t just about prayer. It’s about being a good person by doing what God wants you to do. If God wants you to cut off your daughter’s clitoris or stop evolution from being taught in school, that’s damned well what you should be doing.

Comment #58: junk science  on  07/15  at  03:39 PM

#42 mikeess,
More like Mr. Douchbag. Actually though, isnt he harming others by hurting their ears with the bullhorn? Gawd, how insecure do you have to be to do something like that? Perhaps the bodyguards as well as himself could all be carrying guns too to to add that extra douchy-ness? Was he a teabagger/right-winger?

Comment #59: Bean Slap  on  07/15  at  03:41 PM

Being against Citizens United is the same as being against freedom of speech in the exact same way as opposing drive-by shootings means being in opposition to having windows you can roll down.

Comment #60: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/15  at  04:00 PM

I mean, that’s pathetic baiting, right there.  I meant a good faith example of actual opposition to citizens having the constitutional right to express their views.

Comment #61: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/15  at  04:01 PM

#78
Right junks science. Technically she is doing something similar to what the creationists want (BTW the Muslims are also for creationism though in the U.S. its mainly pushed by the Christians since theyre the overwhelming majority. Its just good to know that the general Christians out there arent the only science foes out there) since she is trying to force her religious beliefs down everyones throat at the expense of common sense and security. Its quite obvious the veil obscures facial recognition, not to mention but one shouldnt be driving wearing one as its dangerous. I am going by Muslims themselves who say that the veil is not inherent to the religion. Even if it is then too bad, because there are certain secular and reasonable rules they have to follow if they want to drive and showing the face is simply one of them. This really makes me aware that I dont think Muslims really care about showing a positive presence to others if they always support such excemptionalism all the time, nonetheless the wearing of a non-required outfit that inhibits communication and trust and embodies a rape culture philosophy.

Comment #62: Bean Slap  on  07/15  at  04:04 PM

Comment #44: anoNY2 on 07/15 at 12:51 PM

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

YES, a corporation making a movie, book, or newspaper is literally exercising the freedom of the press!  Now, why can this freedom, about which Congress “shall make no law,” be restricted by the government in regards to some corporations, but not others?

And of course, any law that restricts what a company can say when advertising their product is an abridgment of the freedom of speech and the press.

Comment #63: sacundim  on  07/15  at  04:06 PM

@sotonohito #6:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_7C0QGkiVo
I think Arlo Guthrie said that a few decades ago, too.

Comment #64: phylosopher  on  07/15  at  04:21 PM

I took many business classes as an undergrad, and I know full well what Articles of Incorporation are.  I also am pretty damn sure that Citizen’s United’s articles of incorporation included the fact that they would create political speech such as movies. 

I’m kind of surprised you would leave it up to the corporation itself to decide whether it wants to be subject to the campaign finance laws…

Which just proves that you didn’t actually pay attention to the material.  Just like you don’t pay attention to any other facts.

“There is no difference between publishing “Hillary is going to set up Death Panels” than there is in publishing “McDonalds food will give you syphilis””

I don’t quite know what to do with this statement, though I hope the folks reading it realize the kind of government censorship power this reasoning would allow.  Anytime an individual or group criticized a government policy, they could be censored for it.  This would happen because the government itself would be the arbiter of what was “true” and what was “false.”

Comment #52: anoNY2

Requiring truth in advertising is some sort of fascist cencorship?  Really?

a.)  I gotta know what people’s rights were being violated by the corporation making a movie.
b.)  If no one’s rights are being violated, doesn’t the case for the government restrictions evaporate?
c.)  If you still hold to the belief that the government can act regardless of a lack of violation of other people’s rights, how do you sleep at night?

Overall, this illustrates an expansive view of government power, a la John Yoo.  Amanda in the original post was willing to live and let live with religious freedoms, and I agree with her on that.  I was just hoping to extend that attitude to other areas of the Bill of Rights.

Comment #58: anoNY2

Don’t those goal posts get heavy moving them around all over the place?

a) Irrelevent
b) No
c) If you can’t understand what a social contract is or how a government functions within it, you are too ignorant to be trusted in society.

Really, Anon, could you be more ignorant of how the world works?

Comment #65: cynickal  on  07/15  at  04:34 PM

If anyone thinks that suppressing religious expression works to remove religion from a society, please see “Former Yugoslavia” for reference on exactly how well that works.  In Albania, religion sprung back and evangelicals moved in to scoop up the “lost souls” - however, there weren’t the same issues as in “yugoslavia” because Albanians had a coherent nationality that trumped religion to begin with.  Yugoslavia was a kludged together republic.

Comment #66: Ms Kate  on  07/15  at  05:40 PM

Yugoslavia didn’t engage in wholesale suppression of religious belief—it was relatively more free compared to Warsaw Pact nations. Albania was one of the few countries to declare itself to be officially atheist. And even there, many people still retain their original religious identity (Muslim, Catholic, or Orthodox).

Part of the mythology (in a good way, I mean) about coming to America is that you get the freedom to express whatever religious practice you want, and the government can only intervene when it has a tangible, material interest. “I would prefer people being more secular in public” isn’t one of those reasons.

Comment #67: Tyro  on  07/15  at  06:01 PM

a.)  I gotta know what people’s rights were being violated by the corporation making a movie.
b.)  If no one’s rights are being violated, doesn’t the case for the government restrictions evaporate?
c.)  If you still hold to the belief that the government can act regardless of a lack of violation of other people’s rights, how do you sleep at night?

What cynickal said.  Also:

1.  Media audiences have a right to know if what they are watching (reading/hearing) is objectively measurable truth, or opinion.  As I understand it, when a corporate entity purchases airtime to broadcast a film designed to persuade the audience to some political position over another, and then presents it as truth, rather than opinion, it’s the same as false advertising.  The corporate entity is Mr. Big in MikeEss’s example.  The corporate entity shouts everyone else down, because no individual has the monetary wherewithal to air their own counter-information film.  The rights of the poor to not be lied to by the rich are the ones being infringed.  Since Libertarians consider poor people parasites and drags on society, and hope that they die, I find it intriguing that you have taken such a keen interest.  Perhaps you hope to someday be in control of a media conglomerate, ala Rupert Murdoch.  The recent happenings with his little newspaper situation demonstrate that being the richest and the loudest in no way makes you the wisest. 

2.  That’s like asking,  “If a tree falls in the forest and there’s nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound?”  Many Libertarians would argue that mere citizens have no right to truth in advertising.  Many media attorneys would argue against that.  I’ll take my chances with the sharks who let everyone know what they are, rather than Libertarian sociopaths who pretend to be harmless.

3.  Government serves many purposes other than the protection of, and redress for violation of, the citizenry’s rights.  Primarily, government functions to get things paid for.  If being interested in the other purposes that governments serve, outside of protection/redress for rights makes me a bad person, then I’m going straight to Hell.  If other posters here agree with my positions, I will be happy to save them a warm seat provided I reach Hades before them.

As the lady once said, “If you don’t have anything nice to say, come sit next to me.” 

 

Comment #68: Rachel Tyrel  on  07/15  at  06:27 PM

Ms Kate, it should be noted that Stalin revived a version of the Russian Orthodox Church in order to engender a religious feeling amoungst the ‘comrades’ after the Germans invaded in 1941.

Comment #69: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/15  at  06:51 PM

Literally if a rapist was a fashion designer he’d come up with the burqa/veil.

That’s a terrible thing to say and I probably will vehemently disagree with you once I stop laughing my ass off at the mental image… XD (Headscarves and the like are just straight-up beautiful, however. Most of the non-face-covering Muslim attire I’ve seen is really pretty and flattering.)

As for ID, we don’t need retinal scanners for traffic stops (we need them for increased “cool factor” though, obviously) ‘cause we have shit like Skype and camera phones. “Alright ma’am, I will glance away from your face while you unveil and look into this screen on my phone here. Follow the instructions of the female officer on the line, please.” But we still need an unveiled photo on record, I believe, even if it is kept modestly blurred until a female security person can access it.

Comment #70: Bagelsan  on  07/15  at  07:39 PM

“Ms Kate, it should be noted that Stalin revived a version of the Russian Orthodox Church in order to engender a religious feeling amoungst the ‘comrades’ after the Germans invaded in 1941.”

Religion is best understood as a tool for oppression and control, and nobody was more interested in oppression and control than Comrade Stalin.  Interesting that he understood this so well, and it’s so obvious from a outside perspective. 

Yet so many here are oblivious to the political and economic consequences of their beliefs, especially in the last couple decades as our overlords have increasingly used it to keep the proles in line…

Comment #71: MikeEss  on  07/15  at  07:48 PM

Religion is best understood as a tool for oppression and control, and nobody was more interested in oppression and control than Comrade Stalin.  Interesting that he understood this so well, and it’s so obvious from a outside perspective.

Yet so many here are oblivious to the political and economic consequences of their beliefs, especially in the last couple decades as our overlords have increasingly used it to keep the proles in line…

MikeEss, that’s crazy talk! I’m sure that if I keep working hard and keeping out the immigrants I’m gonna get to retire in a beautiful pasture and eat grass all day, like Snowball promised! Or if I hate enough gay people I get to, uh, go to “animal heaven.” Or whatever it was the raven character told everyone happened.  ...Um, I don’t remember Animal Farm very well.

Comment #72: Bagelsan  on  07/15  at  08:17 PM

Religion is best understood as a tool for oppression and control, and nobody was more interested in oppression and control than Comrade Stalin.  Interesting that he understood this so well, and it’s so obvious from a outside perspective. 

It took Stalin a while to figure this out, actually. It wasn’t until the Germans rolled into Russia and a lot of the population figured, “Stalin doesn’t give a fuck about us; why should we give a fuck about him?” Suppressing the church in Russia gave the people one less thing to consider worth defending their homes over. So he figured, “maybe if I stop fucking over this institution that people actually like, even just a little bit, they’ll consider the country worth saving.”

Comment #73: Tyro  on  07/15  at  08:52 PM

So your “rational” view of the situation is that because I don’t think we should arm infants, I should also think the freedom of speech should be restricted by the government?

Yes; you’re being a hypocrite if you accede to logical barriers in one area but not the other. 

 

Comment #74: Punditus Maximus  on  07/15  at  09:21 PM

Ironically, Thomas & Scalia are of great help here. They’ve ruled many seemingly “freedom of religion” under the “Free Speech” clause. This puts religion on equal par to other ideologies. It is neither privileged nor censored. This helps the Pastafarian’s case, since his church would be granted equal status to others. For S & T, religion is not the issue. Speech is. Full stop.

You may not have noticed this because most of the cases have involved lefty school administrators censoring religious speech under the guise of the Establishment clause. Lambs Church is a case in point. The church wanted to show films by arch-conservative James Dobson after hours in public schools. The state denied them access while simultaneously granting it to liberal secular groups.

Scalia and Thomas pushed back on the idea that religious speech gets lower protection on government property and SCOTUS ruled that this was indeed unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination.

Comment #75: Manju  on  07/15  at  09:21 PM

Manju, precedent, however, had long established that specifically with respect to religion, the state could not be perceived as favoring any particular religion or religion in general, and that included using state owned facilities for religious purposes. I admit that the issue was arguable, but that was the precedent—ideologies are religion neutral, and religions are more than just secular ideologies.

I suspect you know that, however, and are just piping in to be annoying.

Comment #76: Tyro  on  07/15  at  09:35 PM

Plus, I’m not ashamed to admit that, having grown up on a steady diet of science fiction, stuff like iris scanners just screams “super keen” at me and I want to see more of all of it.

I dunno.  I’m an SF person as well, but I have the same objection to being iris scanned as I do to being fingerprinted when I haven’t been accused as a crime.  I consider it an invasion of privacy.  A photograph—I mean, that’s just a snapshot of what I show the world every day, and I can always dye my hair or something if I want to make a radical change. 

Question: I don’t get the idea that taking a picture of somebody without glasses on is putting an extra burden on the person examining the license—couldn’t they just ask you to take your glasses off if they’re having trouble comparing you to the photo?

Comment #77: EG01  on  07/15  at  11:05 PM

@ # 70, heard this yesterday - what you describe is here:

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/14/137472487/what-it-means-to-be-always-on-a-smartphone

Describes cops using smartphones to do scans in the field.  Cost is @ $30K though.

The interviewee is Bran X. Chen and “Always On” is the title of his book.

Comment #78: phylosopher  on  07/15  at  11:41 PM

Implementation need not be perfect or even particularly convenient at the outset in order for something to be worthwhile. I mean, I take your points that there would be expense and inconvenience, but I think at least one of the two is inevitable at the moment regardless of the given solution.

Plus, I’m not ashamed to admit that, having grown up on a steady diet of science fiction, stuff like iris scanners just screams “super keen” at me and I want to see more of all of it.

I think you misunderstood me.  We should certainly move towards having iris scanners be commonplace.  BUT in the meantime while we’re getting that set up, we have to deal with the practical reality of many entities not having them.  Working toward a certain outcome and also dealing with the fact that reality hasn’t met that yet are absolutely not mutually exclusive.

Comment #79: bananacat  on  07/16  at  12:16 AM

That’s a terrible thing to say and I probably will vehemently disagree with you once I stop laughing my ass off at the mental image… XD (Headscarves and the like are just straight-up beautiful, however. Most of the non-face-covering Muslim attire I’ve seen is really pretty and flattering.)

It’s not as ridiculous as you think.  I think the ridiculous mistake that Bean Slap made was to imply that all rapists are the same.

But it is absolutely true that many rapists choose their target based on making it easier to get away with.  So it would certainly behoove some of them to set up a very strict dress code, so that whenever they rape someone it’s just that much easier to blame the victim for being “immodest”. 

Rape is about power and not (just) sex.  So it may seem like a rapist would prefer revealing standard clothing for women, and especially if he has some power in determining fashion standards he would feel powerful for making women wear something like that all the time.  But plenty of others want to make it easy to get away with rape, which means making victims more blameable.  Plenty of the men who rail about immodesty are rapists themselves.

Comment #80: bananacat  on  07/16  at  12:24 AM

Describes cops using smartphones to do scans in the field.  Cost is @ $30K though.

Oh, that’s pretty cool, but I wasn’t even thinking that fancy—I was just assuming that if a female officer wasn’t making the traffic stop, then one could be video-conferenced with to identify a veiled woman (rather than having a female officer drive all the way out there or making the driver show her face to a male officer.)

But it is absolutely true that many rapists choose their target based on making it easier to get away with.  So it would certainly behoove some of them to set up a very strict dress code, so that whenever they rape someone it’s just that much easier to blame the victim for being “immodest”.

I’m in 100% agreement with you on that! Rapists love making life easy for themselves, and religious/social oppression of women is a great way to do it. I felt bad about laughing at the idea of tasteful rapists putting huge black sacks on people, basically, but upon further reflection that a pretty accurate portrait of the whole thing so I guess I withdraw my “vehement disagreement.” :p

Comment #81: Bagelsan  on  07/16  at  12:35 AM

You are too dumb for words. The government cannot censor the NYT, or anyone else, because content-based censorship is prohibited by the First Amendment. That doesn’t mean that the NYT is free to donate infinity dollars to any political cause that it likes. The question is whether a corporation donating money to the making of a film is protected; it shouldn’t be, as corporations are not people and have no rights in and of themselves.

This doesn’t work. McCain-Feingold did not stop Citizens United from “donating money to the making of a film” so it has no bearing on whether or not the “NYT is free to donate infinity dollars to any political cause that it likes”.

Rather, McCain-Feingold restricted CU from pulling a Fahrenheit 9/11. Their film was considered electioneering while Michael Moore’s was not.

Right there you have a problem b/c the NYTimes endorsing someone is electioneering too. And they also are a corporation. So if electionioneering communications by corporations may be censored, what exactly stops the govt from censoring the NYTimes?

 

Comment #82: Manju  on  07/16  at  05:30 AM

I think the best takeaway from secularism is that religious freedom is not actually a separate freedom at all, but rather an expression of our other underlying liberties in a religious context.  We just feel the need to call it out as if it were separate, say, from our freedom of expression because religious dissent is so prone to being curb-stomped by the dominant group.

This why I think there ought not to be any religious exceptions in the law.  If the need for the law isn’t strong enough to supersede religious freedom, then it isn’t enough to supersede the individual freedom of choice that allows us to choose our religion in the first place.  We don’t require that people justify their choice of religious beliefs to the government, after all (and rightly so).  Adding religion as an intermediary between individual freedom and government restriction just clouds the issue.

Comment #83: DaveL  on  07/16  at  08:28 AM

Re: EG01 @ 97

Can you unpack your feelings a bit for me? I can’t quite wrap my head around what it is about biometric data that makes you want to keep it so closely held. I don’t understand the contrast with a photo and dying hair.

I don’t need to totally understand what you’re saying to reassure you that I wasn’t necessarily advocating a wholesale replacement of facial photo-id with something based on different biometrics. It might be an alternative for people who wanted to keep their faces under wraps (for whatever reason) though.

Re: phylosopher @ 98

That article is great. The price tag on the scanners is a bit over the top (if understandable), but if it drops as the technology develops, I could see them being deployed fairly extensively. Realistically, police forces wouldn’t need a scanner for each officer. One for each operating patrol car and speed trap, maybe.

Re: bananacat @ 99

Well then. No argument here.

Comment #84: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/16  at  10:39 AM

Can you unpack your feelings a bit for me? I can’t quite wrap my head around what it is about biometric data that makes you want to keep it so closely held. I don’t understand the contrast with a photo and dying hair.

Sure, no problem.  Fingerprints and iris scans are, to my knowledge, not only unique to an individual, but unchangeable.  If I want to disguise my face and hair for some reason, there are numerous ways I can do so without the process being permanent or painful, and whether or not to do so is pretty much up to me.  But if I want to change my fingerprints, my understanding is that I would have to burn my old ones off with acid.  So to my mind, the information being collected by fingerprinting me or iris-scanning me is far more personal and thus vulnerable to misuse than a photograph.  If the government is storing images of my iris and my fingerprints, and those are being used as identification tools, they can track my movements much more easily, whether or not they have a good reason to be following me or any evidence suggesting that I’ve committed any crime.  Historically, the US government at least has not used its powers for good, domestically.  The FBI, for instance, has gone out of its way to infiltrate various leftist organizations such as ACT-UP and the GMHC, and tailed people such as Martin Luther King and some random anarchist activist running a Hurricane Katrina relief organization down in Texas, while letting groups like the KKK literally get away with murder.  Basically, I don’t trust them with such sensitive identifying information, and I don’t want to give it up to them or the cops unless there’s a good reason, i.e., they have a reasonable suspicion that I’ve committed a crime and am a danger to the public.

Comment #85: EG01  on  07/16  at  11:25 AM

OK, I’m not sure if my reply to I, too, have an opinion! went through or not, so if this turns out to be a double-post, please forgive me.

Can you unpack your feelings a bit for me? I can’t quite wrap my head around what it is about biometric data that makes you want to keep it so closely held. I don’t understand the contrast with a photo and dying hair.

Sure, no problem.  Fingerprints and iris scans are, to my knowledge, not only unique to an individual, but unchangeable.  If I want to disguise my face and hair for some reason, there are numerous ways I can do so without the process being permanent or painful, and whether or not to do so is pretty much up to me.  But if I want to change my fingerprints, my understanding is that I would have to burn my old ones off with acid.  So to my mind, the information being collected by fingerprinting me or iris-scanning me is far more personal and thus vulnerable to misuse than a photograph.  If the government is storing images of my iris and my fingerprints, and those are being used as identification tools, they can track my movements much more easily, whether or not they have a good reason to be following me or any evidence suggesting that I’ve committed any crime.  Historically, the US government at least has not used its powers for good, domestically.  The FBI, for instance, has gone out of its way to infiltrate various leftist organizations such as ACT-UP and the GMHC, and tailed people such as Martin Luther King and some random anarchist activist running a Hurricane Katrina relief organization down in Texas, while letting groups like the KKK literally get away with murder.  Basically, I don’t trust them with such sensitive identifying information, and I don’t want to give it up to them or the cops unless there’s a good reason, i.e., they have a reasonable suspicion that I’ve committed a crime and am a danger to the public.

Comment #86: EG01  on  07/16  at  11:26 AM

Manju, keeping a corporation from putting out political propaganda isn’t the same as threatening freedom of the press.

Comment #87: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/16  at  11:41 AM

Manju, keeping a corporation from putting out political propaganda isn’t the same as threatening freedom of the press.

Yes it is. Foxnews, I’m sure you’ll agree, puts out political propaganda. They are a corporation. To keep them from doing so threatens freedom of the press.

Since there is no way to distinguish between Foxnews and the NYTimes without blowing up the first amendment, political propaganda is constitutionally protected speech.

Comment #88: Manju  on  07/16  at  02:43 PM

Foxnews, I’m sure you’ll agree, puts out political propaganda. They are a corporation. To keep them from doing so threatens freedom of the press.

Actually, Manju, it has been ruled that Fox News doesn’t have to live up to it’s name, that they can throw anything shit up on the screen and call it news.

Fox-Can-Lie Lawsuit

People frequently refer to a court case that Fox won, which essentially gives the media the right to lie. This came from an appellate court decision that states that the FCC’s news distortion policy does not qualify as a rule, law, or regulation.

From Wikipedia:

Jane Akre and her husband Steve Wilson are former employees of Fox owned-and-operated station WTVT in Tampa, Florida. In 1997, they were fired from the station after refusing to knowingly include false information in their report concerning the Monsanto Company’s production of RBGH, a drug designed to make cows produce more milk. They successfully sued under Florida’s whistle blower law and were awarded a US $425,000 settlement by jury decision. However, Fox appealed to an appellate court and won, after the court declared that the FCC policy against falsification that Fox violated was just a policy and not a “law, rule, or regulation”, and so the whistle blower law did not apply.

The court agreed with WTVT’s (Fox) argument “that the FCC’s policy against the intentional falsification of the news — which the FCC has called its “news distortion policy” — does not qualify as the required “law, rule, or regulation” under section 448.102.[...] Because the FCC’s news distortion policy is not a “law, rule, or regulation” under section 448.102, Akre has failed to state a claim under the whistle-blower’s statute.”[1]

In 2001, Jane Akre and her husband won the Goldman Environmental Prize as a recognition for their report on RBGH. [2]

In 2004, Fox filed a US$1.7 million counter-suit against Akre and Wilson for trial fees and costs. Akre and Wilson both appear in a major portion of the 2004/5 critical documentary, The Corporation.

In 2007 Jane became the editor-in-chief of the national news desk at InjuryBoard.com.[3]

From FoxBGHSuit.com:

Fox appealed and prevailed February 14, 2003 when an appeals court issued a ruling reversing the jury, accepting a defense argument that had been rejected by three other judges on at least six separate occasions…

The whistle-blowing journalists, twice refused Fox offers of big-money deals to keep quiet about what they knew, filed their landmark lawsuit April 2, 1998 and survived three Fox efforts to have their case summarily dismissed.  It is the first time journalists have used a whistleblower law to seek a legal remedy for being fired by for refusing to distort the news.  Steve and Jane are now considering an appeal to the Florida state Supreme Court.

From CeaseSpin.com:

Appellate Court Rules Media Can Legally Lie.
By Mike Gaddy. Published Feb. 28, 2003

The court did not dispute the heart of Akre’s claim, that Fox pressured her to broadcast a false story to protect the broadcaster from having to defend the truth in court, as well as suffer the ire of irate advertisers. Fox argued from the first, and failed on three separate occasions, in front of three different judges, to have the case tossed out on the grounds there is no hard, fast, and written rule against deliberate distortion of the news.

The attorneys for Fox, owned by media baron Rupert Murdoch, argued the First Amendment gives broadcasters the right to lie or deliberately distort news reports on the public airwaves.

In its six-page written decision, the Court of Appeals held that the Federal Communications Commission position against news distortion is only a “policy,” not a promulgated law, rule, or regulation. Fox aired a report after the ruling saying it was “totally vindicated” by the verdict.

http://foxnewsboycott.com/resources/fox-can-lie-lawsuit/

Since there is no way to distinguish between Foxnews and the NYTimes without blowing up the first amendment,

Except for the fact that broadcasting was developed after the 1st Amendment, thus it has to be handled differently than a product which is basically the same as it was in the 18th Century,  mechanized scribbles of ink on cheap paper.

And comparing a broadcast organization to a newspaper is a bit iffy, since they are under separate rules, right?

political propaganda is constitutionally protected speech.

BTW, the NYT does print political propaganda, they’re known as editorials.

So, your point again, is what, exactly?

 

 

 

Comment #89: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/16  at  05:00 PM

Actually, Manju, it has been ruled that Fox News doesn’t have to live up to it’s name, that they can throw anything shit up on the screen and call it news.

Right. Why are you presenting me with evidence that substantiates my point, while appearing to take issue with that very point?

 

Comment #90: Manju  on  07/16  at  07:55 PM

I would define my feminism as something like “the removal of the special privileges held by males and masculinity”. Going all the way to the gender binary strikes me a bit like defining abolitionism as “breaking down capitalism and all its implications”—it identifies the fundamental mechanism underlying the injustice and sets a comprehensive long term goal, but doesn’t point us towards significant injustices that could be righted without changing the system.

Going for the systemic solution also leaves some weird loopholes: you could have a society with a non-binary understanding of gender that still put an unjust premium on masculinity, just as you could have a non-capitalist society that retained the institution of slavery. (Some would say that slavery is a mandatory feature of non-capitalist societies! And societies with non-binary gender relations!)

Comment #91: AWidebrant  on  07/16  at  07:58 PM

Except for the fact that broadcasting was developed after the 1st Amendment, thus it has to be handled differently than a product which is basically the same as it was in the 18th Century,  mechanized scribbles of ink on cheap paper.

The courts have consistently ruled that “freedom of the press” not only apples to the printing press as originally intended, but to other forms of communication technology…like Amanda’s blog. This is a logical extension of the original meaning of those words.

Your attempt to restrict the clause to just the press is disturbing, but nonetheless refreshing. Upthread, we have some progressives assuring us that they are all pro-free speech. Now here you come along and blow a hole thru the first amendment, presumably b/c we are talking about speech of which you disapprove (FoxNews).

Thanks for the candor.

And comparing a broadcast organization to a newspaper is a bit iffy, since they are under separate rules, right?

The original justification for regulating broadcasters was spectrum scarcity. Now, even the FCC has conceded that the spectrum-scarcity rationale is irrelevant in the cable industry. The courts have since ruled various relics of the old justification, like the rule against personal attacks or editorializing, to be unconstitutional.

Every once in a while the Fairness doctrine reappears in lefty-land, and fellow leftists try to reassure Americans that they have no intention of censoring. Now you come along and try to apply irrelevant broadcasting restrictions to a cable news network that you do not approve of.

I once again appreciate the candor.

BTW, the NYT does print political propaganda, they’re known as editorials.

Its irrelevant. McCAin-Feingold did not restrict “political propaganda.” That has long been highly protected speech in our regime.

McCain-Feingold restricted “electioneering communications” 30 day prior to an election. Editorials are electioneering communications. Even the deputy attorney-gen representing the FCC conceded in front of SCOTUS that editorials by unions and other corporations could be censored under McCain-Feingold.

I suspect that was the moment the censors lost the swing votes. 

 

Comment #92: Manju  on  07/16  at  08:20 PM

The courts have consistently ruled that “freedom of the press” not only apples to the printing press as originally intended, but to other forms of communication technology…like Amanda’s blog. This is a logical extension of the original meaning of those words.

Yes, that was the point of the ruling I posted about Fox.

Your attempt to restrict the clause to just the press is disturbing, but nonetheless refreshing.

You’re a real doofus, do you know that? 

Now here you come along and blow a hole thru the first amendment, presumably b/c we are talking about speech of which you disapprove (FoxNews).

Thanks for the candor.

For bonus points, can you tell me why the FCC was created in the first place?

Its irrelevant. McCAin-Feingold did not restrict “political propaganda.” That has long been highly protected speech in our regime.

McCain-Feingold restricted “electioneering communications” 30 day prior to an election. Editorials are electioneering communications. Even the deputy attorney-gen representing the FCC conceded in front of SCOTUS that editorials by unions and other corporations could be censored under McCain-Feingold.

I suspect that was the moment the censors lost the swing votes

You haven’t even begun to figure out my opinion on McCain/Feingold, but then you don’t see any problem with allowing clear lies to be broadcast on Fox News.

The original justification for regulating broadcasters was spectrum scarcity. Now, even the FCC has conceded that the spectrum-scarcity rationale is irrelevant in the cable industry. The courts have since ruled various relics of the old justification, like the rule against personal attacks or editorializing, to be unconstitutional.

The court did not dispute the heart of Akre’s claim, that Fox pressured her to broadcast a false story to protect the broadcaster from having to defend the truth in court, as well as suffer the ire of irate advertisers. Fox argued from the first, and failed on three separate occasions, in front of three different judges, to have the case tossed out on the grounds there is no hard, fast, and written rule against deliberate distortion of the news.

Yes, that’s quite a loophole they have.

That puts the lie to your rationale, I doubt the Founding Fathers would’ve countenanced deliberate lies under the guise of news.

Thanks for demonstrating again what political confusion looks like.

And quit assuming people have positions opposite to yours, if you’re such a good mind-reader, you should be working for the equivalent of the Psychic Friends Network where ever you are instead of trying to convince people what a deep and intelligent political thinker you could be in 5 of 10 years from now.

Just a helpful hint. grin

Comment #93: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/16  at  10:32 PM

You haven’t even begun to figure out my opinion on McCain/Feingold,

Well, you responded to my comment about McCain-Feingold, which ended with the question:

So if electionioneering communications by corporations may be censored, what exactly stops the govt from censoring the NYTimes?


with:

Manju, keeping a corporation from putting out political propaganda isn’t the same as threatening freedom of the press.

…indicating that you believe corporations engaged in political propaganda do not enjoy free press protection. If they don’t, then the very basis of the laws unconstitutionality is lost. So for my purposes, that told me what I needed to know.

Now, it appears your reply above had no connection to McCain-Feingold at all. Rather you were introducing broadcaster’s free press rights and the limits therof into the conversation. Well, how the hell was I supposed to know you were moving onto another issue? 

but then you don’t see any problem with allowing clear lies to be broadcast on Fox News.

Or the NYTimes for that matter.

Look, the Times and the Nation deliberately denied the existence of the Soviet Union’s Ukrainian Famine. I’m sure you have no problem believing that I hate communist-sympathizers and enablers as much as I hate the Dixiecrat ones…and you know how much I hate them. But I don’t want to give the state the power to decide what is true. The market decides that. You and I.

Indeed, allowing the govt to have that much power is why communist regimes routinely devolved into Orwellian nightmares in the first place. Individual rights should trump state ones. 

That puts the lie to your rationale,

The rationale is in regards to the first amendment. Spectrum scarcity gives the govt a compelling governmental interest. That’s why FCC rules can’t constitutionally apply to newspapers. But now that this justification is slipping away, broadcasters find themselves increasingly on par with the likes of the NYTimes.

I doubt the Founding Fathers would’ve countenanced deliberate lies under the guise of news.

Really? They didn’t carve out an exception. And pamphleteers back then were known to lie.

 

Comment #94: Manju  on  07/17  at  12:56 AM

indicating that you believe corporations engaged in political propaganda do not enjoy free press protection. If they don’t, then the very basis of the laws unconstitutionality is lost. So for my purposes, that told me what I needed to know.

If that’s what you got from my comment, then you didn’t get what you needed to know.

They didn’t carve out an exception

But there are constitutional exceptions for libel, slander, false advertising, and even the regulation of billboards.

The rationale is in regards to the first amendment. Spectrum scarcity gives the govt a compelling governmental interest. That’s why FCC rules can’t constitutionally apply to newspapers. But now that this justification is slipping away, broadcasters find themselves increasingly on par with the likes of the NYTimes

It’s still true that the AM, FM and broadcast TV are using public airwaves that are a limited resource, and the ruling on Fox News wasn’t based on the spectrum scarcity argument, and your failure to acknowledge that fact tells us more about you than you want us to know.

Look, the Times and the Nation deliberately denied the existence of the Soviet Union’s Ukrainian Famine. I’m sure you have no problem believing that I hate communist-sympathizers and enablers as much as I hate the Dixiecrat ones…and you know how much I hate them. But I don’t want to give the state the power to decide what is true. The market decides that. You and I.

The Fox lie was nothing like that, put keep adding things to the discussion, it add so much to your pretensions of intellectual integrity around here.

You really don’t know much, do you.

Comment #95: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/17  at  02:24 AM

If that’s what you got from my comment, then you didn’t get what you needed to know.

You tell me that, “keeping a corporation from putting out political propaganda isn’t the same as threatening freedom of the press”. I get from that: “you believe corporations engaged in political propaganda do not enjoy free press protection.” And you tell me I didn’t get what I needed.

I guess you can’t always get what you need. But if your try sometimes, you get what you want.

But there are constitutional exceptions for libel, slander, false advertising, and even the regulation of billboards.

You got things backwards.  You can’t use narrowly carved out exceptions to justify another one. When it comes to basic freedoms, the bar is intentionally high. Strict Scrutiny is the word (I think, I’m not a lawyer). I can’t say because abortions in the last trimester can be outlawed, therefore the first should be unprotected too. You need to provide a new compelling governmental interest to justify the new restriction on a basic freedom. And it needs to be freakin compelling, like national security.

But again, thanks for the candor. You’re seeking to extend the rules governing commercial speech, rules that scotus is in the process of revisiting, and apply them to political speech. That’s good to know.

It’s still true that the AM, FM and broadcast TV are using public airwaves that are a limited resource, and the ruling on Fox News wasn’t based on the spectrum scarcity argument, and your failure to acknowledge that fact tells us more about you than you want us to know.

There’s no need to make a constitutional issue over one that can be decided on a technicality. Lower courts are generally unwilling to make grand philosophical statements. So Fox’s loophole decision in no way contradicts the larger philosophical point: spectrum scarcity is the justification for regulating the airwaves.

The Fox lie was nothing like that, put keep adding things to the discussion, it add so much to your pretensions of intellectual integrity around here.

Foxnews lies: DAGCM wants to rewrite the first amendment. NYTimes and The Nation knowingly deny the murder of millions at the hands of a left-wing govt: DAGCM not too worried.

Comment #96: Manju  on  07/17  at  05:56 AM

I guess you can’t always get what you need. But if your try sometimes, you get what you want.

You know, I once met a girl, or should I say, she once met me.

You got things backwards.  You can’t use narrowly carved out exceptions to justify another one.

Nope, that there are restrictions on freedom of speech means that there is no absolute freedom of speech.

Strict Scrutiny is the word (I think, I’m not a lawyer)

Why don’t you find out?

Lower courts are generally unwilling to make grand philosophical statements. So Fox’s loophole decision in no way contradicts the larger philosophical point: spectrum scarcity is the justification for regulating the airwaves.

You’re not a lawyer or law scholar, therefore you make stupid statements.  Makes sense to me.

Foxnews lies: DAGCM wants to rewrite the first amendment.

You can’t lie about a product you advertise, why should you be able to lie in other circumstances as well?

NYTimes and The Nation knowingly deny the murder of millions at the hands of a left-wing govt:

Yes, 70 years ago.

Ever notice how Manju has to reach back to the past to make arguments for the present, folks?

Me neither.

Comment #97: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/17  at  09:22 AM

I have actually been thinking about this issue myself, and writing about it on my blog.  A few weeks ago I responded to an article by Dr. Robert Benne, and it has resulted in our corresponding over the last few weeks, including follow-up posts.

For antone who is interested, here is the link to the first post about this topic:

http://shaunphilly.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/religion-and-politics-robert-benne-getting-it-wrong/

I do think we need to be a little more clear about what we mean by secularism in our community.

Comment #98: ShaunPhilly  on  07/17  at  04:25 PM

For instance, “feminism” is defined by some feminists as ... “breaking down the gender binary and all its implications”.

This is why I won’t join Google+.  Facebook doesn’t force you to choose a gender.

Comment #99: BABH  on  07/17  at  05:09 PM

Because he’s also making a reference to having out-of-wedlock babies, which the last time I checked, isn’t criminal.

Ducks aren’t cows. If I say “ducks and cows are disgusting” it doesn’t stand to reason, merely because I included ducks, that I said all animals are disgusting.  Those who have out-of-wedlock babies also lack moral character in Peterson’s opinion. To extrapolate out further is hackish.

But hey, just saying black criminals or those who have out of wedlock babies are lacking morals isn’t insulting, and to point to the behavior under stress of the unfortunates stuck in the Superbowl just demonstrates how Progressive their thinking has become these days, not calling them monkeys or jungle apes anymore is a real step up.

If your gripe is that its insulting, then go ahead and gripe. I won’t object. Cosby’s poundcake routine is insulting. Chris Rock’s n-word routine is insulting. Saying they are “acting like boys instead of men” is insulting. IIRC, one civil rights leader wanted to emasculate the person who said the latter over similar sentiments.

But don’t tell me these individuals are insulting blacks in general then protest when I call you a hack.

 

Comment #100: Manju  on  07/17  at  06:26 PM

oops.  wrong thread. wrong blog! meant for oliverwillis.com. sorry!

Comment #101: Manju  on  07/17  at  06:28 PM

You’re not a lawyer or law scholar, therefore you make stupid statements.  Makes sense to me.

You engage in 2 logical fallacies: 1. attacking the person not the argument 2. Argument to authority. Then you say the other person makes “stupid statements.” Heh.

You can’t lie about a product you advertise, why should you be able to lie in other circumstances as well?

You may not have an abortion in the 3rd trimester. Why should you be able to have one in other trimesters as well?

You have things backwards. When a basic right is in question, the burden of proof is on the State. When it comes to the first amendment, the bar is extremely high: strict scrutiny. You’re asking why people should be allowed to do something instead of justifying why people should be restricted.

Lying is constitutionally protected speech b/c to allow our govt to shutdown such speech is a mechanism that could enable tyranny, since the govt decides what is true and false. The narrow exceptions are just that. Falsely yelling fire in a movie theatre for example clears a very high bar, since it incites imminent life-threatening actions.

These limits have to clear numerous hurdles. So you can’t clear only one and then ask for an exception to the first. In other words, lying about fire in a movie theatre is unprotected speech not merely because it’s a lie, but for the reasons stated above. So you can’t say, “hey fox lied too, why not make their speech illegal as well” since the unprotected status of FIAMT does not depend merely on it being a lie. You have to clear all the other hurdles as well.

Ever notice how Manju has to reach back to the past to make arguments for the present, folks?

We’re talking about the first amendment. The rules you create today will likely be in effect 70 years from now. If fox can’t lie, then its unclear how the NYTimes can. This means a hostile admin could catch the NYTimes in a lie and then use that lie as an excuse to suppress the paper.

Comment #102: Manju  on  07/17  at  09:37 PM

You engage in 2 logical fallacies: 1. attacking the person not the argument 2. Argument to authority. Then you say the other person makes “stupid statements.” Heh.

You’re arguing ad ignorantum when you say “I’m not a lawyer”, whether you know it or not.

Lying is constitutionally protected speech b/c to allow our govt to shutdown such speech is a mechanism that could enable tyranny, since the govt decides what is true and false. The narrow exceptions are just that. Falsely yelling fire in a movie theatre for example clears a very high bar, since it incites imminent life-threatening actions.

You’re not allowed to lie about products you sell, why should it be permissible to libel people politically under the guise of ‘free speech’?

So you can’t say, “hey fox lied too, why not make their speech illegal as well” since the unprotected status of FIAMT does not depend merely on it being a lie.

You know, you get into these little arguments that in the end, convince nobody, except perhaps yourself, and you ignore the pernicious effect that lies can have in a democratic society,

Also, governments without the protection of the 1st Amendment have outlawed lying about recent history and ethnic minorities and their dedication to the truth seems to have not eroded their society, I don’t see what damage could come of not being allowed to broadcast lies in the service of political ideology except to News Corps pocketbook, which might be why you continue these obviously futile battles in the service of the Australiopithecus rightwingus.

We’re talking about the first amendment. The rules you create today will likely be in effect 70 years from now.

Then take a recent case from the last decade to the present day to make your point, you seem to do nothing here and elsewhere but to come up with excuses for those not Progressive or too Leftist for your taste.

This means a hostile admin could catch the NYTimes in a lie and then use that lie as an excuse to suppress the paper.

The NYT has weathered being caught out before, and unless the NYT establishes their own cable network, your argument has little merit.

Keep trying to be fair-minded, Manju, you should get there in 15 years or so.

Virtue should not be left to stand by itself.

Master K’ung.

 

 

Comment #103: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/17  at  11:28 PM

I don’t see what damage could come of not being allowed to broadcast lies in the service of political ideology except to News Corps pocketbook, which might be why you continue these obviously futile battles in the service of the Australiopithecus rightwingus.

Something’s amiss. The wiki article you cite claims:

a jury dismissing all of the claims brought to trial by Wilson,

which would mean that they found Fox could not be proven to have lied. But:

but siding with one aspect of Akre’s complaint, awarding Akre $425000 and agreeing that Akre was a whistleblower because she believed there were violations of the Communications Act of 1934 and because she planned on reporting WTVT to the Federal Communications Commission.

“she believed” sounds critical. In other words, even though Fox could not be proven to have lied, they still cannot fire someone who believes they did, under whislteblower law.

The appeal dealt with a very narrow question: does whistlebower law apply to FCC rules? The appeals court did not appear to actually rule that Fox can lie, since the lower court already decided that they didn’t.

Comment #104: Manju  on  07/18  at  01:28 PM

Another red flag is this:

The 2003 documentary, The Corporation, featured Wilson and Akre discussing their battle with WTVT, with Wilson claiming that the jury “determined that the story they pressured us to broadcast, the story we resisted telling, was in fact false, distorted, or slanted.”[4][

Wilson’s claim sounds false. The wiki entry indicates the opposite. Is wiki wrong or is Wilson?

Comment #105: Manju  on  07/18  at  01:51 PM

Perhaps you could research the subject with the same zeal and scholarship you bring to the 1960s Civil Rights movement, otherwise, your objections are noted.

Comment #106: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/18  at  02:26 PM

#90 bangelsan,
I’m a bit late in posting, I spilled water on my computer and it shut down so I had to wait a few days.

I find it a bit creepy you would think the idea funny. I never suggested that the designer would be good just that if a rapist were to put their ideology into an outfit they would come up with the burqa and the veil. This is why in so many of these societies where the burqa is worn or is mandatory they severely sexually debase and objectify women. They flog women (or men) who are raped in Saudi Arabia. They blame women if they are raped. The only way women in Afghanistan can avoid having stones lobbed at them when going to school is to toss one of those burqa sacks over their heads before taking it off when inside their classroom. Its not hard to connect the dots. The burqa/veil is a submissive coordination with a rape culture and male entitlement. The burqa isnt worn by men. It is the most inequal outfit in existence today probably making Islam the most regressive and sexist religion in the world today. The claim that the burqa is worn out of “modesty,” which with our experience with patriarchal religions is usually code word for double sexual standards that apply to women but not men, is clearly false. If anything using the non-sexual double standard association of modesty the burqa is quite immodest. The burqa sticks out from what everyone else wears, is huge, billowy, burly, and the person wearing it doesnt have the best field of vision or mobility so the other people around these women wearing burqas have to orient themselves around the Ms. Magoo. It inhibits her interaction with the world and causes health problems. I wrote this already but the burqa screams ‘blame the victim.’ Remember rape isnt about sex but power, control and humiliation. I also have no freakin clue what bananacat meant when they wrote that I label all rapists the same. Rape is all the same, not necessaily the rapist, but it all comes from power, control and debasement of the person via sexual exploitation. Its quite sad that a feminist wouldnt know this. Also there is no way that they get special treatment that I dont get when pulled over. I dont get to dictate which officer I speak to especially based on gender so why should someone wearing a burqa get special treatment just because they use religion as their excuse? Not to mention but allowing people to do this again, reinforces patriarchy and sexism in which everyone has to revolve around their archaic gender ideas. I cant believe you also didnt catch the transphobia, homophobia and queer phobia from that. Do the men get to dictate that they only talk to a male officer? Not to mention: WOMEN WHO WEAR VEILS SHOULD NOT BE DRIVING! Duh!

Comment #107: Bean Slap  on  07/19  at  10:27 PM

Could you at least break paragraph when you go from ranting about 1 person disagreeing with you or commenting on what you said to another?
I agree that no one should be driving with impaired and uncorrected vision (whatever the cause of that impairment or requiremant for correction).

Comment #108: helen w. h.  on  07/20  at  02:28 PM

Okay, now I’m done laughing at the rapist fashion design but I’ve switched to laughing at all the ranting you got going on (especially the bits where you explain stuff about how feminists “should” think, and about how women can’t drive in veils and shit. I lol’d.) Try to clench back that verbal diarrh—uh, diatribe a little more and maybe I’ll take you seriously*?

*well, probably not. ;p

Comment #109: Bagelsan  on  07/20  at  04:04 PM
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