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Next entry: Zero tolerance strip search declared illegal, but what are the implications? Previous entry: Governor Sanford’s Disturbingly Adult E-Mails

Maybe The Bad Kids Aren’t So Bad

imageDisclaimer: I’m currently a legal intern for the ACLU of Michigan.

I went a virtually all-black grade school until seventh grade, when I switched over to a more integrated school - about 60% white, 40% black.  Everyone knew about the “good kids” and “bad kids” in school, but I never really thought about the fact that the “bad kids” at that school were almost uniformly black, and often hounded for the most asinine of transgressions, from laughing about something in a book when the teacher was in a bad mood to taking off coats on the playground in winter.  White kids who acted out in the same ways were often treated as class clowns, laughing along with the teachers and made to do constructive punishments/tasks in obvious efforts to get them harness that joyful creative energy towards something positive, which was really easy to see from detention.

Any more, many schools don’t do detention, they just suspend or expel.  Combined with zero tolerance policies, often for subjective transgressions, being a grade school or high school student is perilous - whether you behave well or behave poorly, your continued presence in school is often subjected to the whims of teachers or administrators in dealing with you. 

The ACLU of Michigan prepared a report on this phenomenon, talking about the “school-to-prison pipeline” - the pattern of suspensions and punishment that lead to dropping out, and particularly to criminal activity.  It’s uniquely dangerous for black males, because we’re so big and threatening from the age of nine onwards.  I remember being 4’7” and screaming “thug life” from the seat of my Huffy at passersby…well, I would, except usually Chip N’ Dale’s Rescue Rangers was on, and that was far more important.

One of the things the report discusses is the vastly disproportionate numbers of punishments that black students receive - in Ann Arbor, for instance, black students make up 18% of students but 58% of suspensions, with numbers like these are repeated in districts across the state.  I’ve had this discussion with people before, and the explanations for this usually attempt to pin it on parental involvement, or culture, somehow believing that the apogee of black culture is mouthing off to a teacher, because that makes sense.

I have a basic rule in life: if a group of people seem to be acting illogically given what are seemingly clear reasons not to, then there’s likely something else at work.  We could accept that black kids and black families are just drastically more likely to train themselves to do disruptive things that will be cracked down on in schools, but that makes virtually no sense whatsoever.  I think there are a couple of things at work, the first being that assumption by many teachers that black students and black males in particular are more aggressive and therefore more likely to transgress initially.  The second is that, from the perspective of black students, being more likely to be treated in a capricious and heavy-handed manner by authority figures makes you less likely to respect those authority figures.

There’s a reason we don’t prescribe the death penalty for every crime.  If you’re going to be put to death for stealing a loaf of bread, then you’re not going to be put to super death for mugging someone, or raping them, or killing them.  It works the same way in schools - when almost every transgression is met with suspension or expulsion, teaching a kid that asking “Why?” when a teacher says stop is the same thing as bringing a gun to school is a great way to encourage a kid to bring a gun to school.  Why would you have trust in a system that targets you for overwhelming punishment for almost anything you do, and lets others skate for the same actions? 

Anyway, read the report, and remember that the victims of zero-tolerance policies aren’t just the honor students who bring a butter knife to school for their lunch, it’s the normal kids who have a bad day and end up getting tasered for it, or who get ten-day suspensions for “insubordination” because they repeated something that someone else got away with. 

**Image of Bobb’e J. Thompson added because that kid is both hilarious and likely to get kicked out of any school you put him in for posing a comedic threat of splitting to people’s sides.

 

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 07:55 AM • (176) Comments

Great post!  It is also worth noting that black students are disproportionately subject to paddling at school in the states that allow it.  This is disturbing in and of itself, but the fact that these states tend to be former slave states adds a bit of extra horror to this phenomenon.

Comment #1: Laurie  on  06/25  at  08:26 AM

Our school systems are broken in so many ways that I wouldn’t know where to start if I was to redesign them from the foundation.  But having some sort of justice and due process when the schools go from acting as educational institutions to become correctional facilities would be a good thing to emphasize.  I’d go much further and allow for those who want to not go to school to not attend, which would free the schools of the students who don’t want to be there and keep them from bothering those who do.  I’d also make the school day and the work day have similar schedules, so that the parasitic daycare industry will stop leeching money from working parents.  And of course, I’d want a curriculum that is relevant to what people want to do: get good jobs, work with things, exercise in healthy ways, and understand our world rather than sit there, be quiet, calm down, do as you’re told, and be still.  Very few jobs in the real world require that much dogged obedience, and even fewer good employers want to have to tell their employees what to do every minute.

What’s also horrible is how these kids that get kicked out of school are labeled as dropouts, which furthers the impression that it’s always chosen, which furthers the impression that black men don’t want to learn, which further “justifies” the kicking out of black kids, which…well, you get the picture.

Comment #2: 3letterjon  on  06/25  at  09:27 AM

Very few jobs in the real world require that much dogged obedience

That’s a joke, right? I would say the thing that schools teach best is how to prepare yourself for the job market. Dogged obedience is the one skill most valued by corporate management.

Comment #3: BlackBloc  on  06/25  at  09:31 AM

It’s a cycle: adults expect black children to behave worse, and due to lowered expectations and capricious punishments, black children behave worse and give up on a system that not only does not work for them, but actively works against them.

This study is fantastic thing, because we have to examine how the system is failing.  Education is so important, especially in a democracy.

Of course, this study is RACIST since it examines race and challenges whites to change their behavior.  How we are to figure out there is a racial bias if we don’t look at the facts is, of course, problematic, but since there’s a black president, we shouldn’t talk about race ever again.  Especially if we discover that racists are still among us—even moreso if it shows people are unintentionally racist.

I don’t think all the teachers are intentionally picking on the black boys.  Children get reputations and teachers talk.  Our racist society gets into our brains, even if we don’t realize it.

When I first moved to scary Chicago, I would find myself on guard when I saw a group of black teens on the train.  then I started asking myself “Self, would you be this frightened if that were a group of white teens?”

Sometimes the answer was yes, but most of the time it was no.  They were just teens goofing.  So, I worked on training myself to STOP BEING SCARED OF BLACK PEOPLE. 

Teachers need to be informed that they are treating black children differently as a class, and that this behavior is unacceptable in 21st Century America.  This study does not show that black kids are bad—it shows they are treated badly, and the change has to start with the ADULTS.

Comment #4: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/25  at  09:32 AM

This saddens me.

On an individual level I suspected very strongly that this is happening (the assumption of Black inferiority), but this report puts a scientific stamp on it. I experienced it in high school myself from a few of the teachers…this underlying assumption that I was smart (since I was *there) but “not that smart” since I am Black. I also experienced it in college & sometimes at work.

*I went to Stuyvesant HS in NYC where Pam went.

My husband and I have an 8 year old boy who has already been affected by this dynamic. (Oh how we hoped to protect him from this for a few more years)...The school is mostly white with white teachers; however, the principal at the school is Black!

There have been a few bumps & we have already spoken to our son about how other people may perceive him differently and even treat him unfairly because he is Black. I am so angry that I even had to have that conversation with him.

Comment #5: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/25  at  09:52 AM

Through grade school and high school, I always went to small Christian schools, where class sizes were small enough that most teachers knew most of the kids. 

I managed to be a kid who fell into the trap you describe: Perceived to have a bad attitude, getting caught and punished (corporal punishment in those days) for doing things I saw other kids do without being punished, arbitrary and capricious enforcement of arbitrary and capricious rules which too often found me to be a transgressor.  And, of course, in response I had what some considered a bad attitude, because I felt myself unfairly and continually the target of School Authority, and frequently being punished (typically with paddling) for what seemed perfectly normal young-and-stupid boy activities.  So a vicious cycle was created.  And I’m just a poor white trash boy from California.

I never skipped school, always went to my classes on time, got reasonable if not exemplary grades, was considered smart, if lazy, by most of my teachers, and generally speaking was “normal”.  But because I was on the bad side of the system, I developed a siege mentality and a broad cynicism I have to this day.

I light of my experiences, it’s very easy for me to picture the truth of what you’re saying happens to too many black kids in school. 

It’s nice to think that Obama’s election symbolized a great turning point in the politics and culture of racism in America.  But examples like this show just how deep the problems really are, and the minimal perception of the existence of these problems indicates just how difficult a task lies ahead, if we’re to ever become something like the country we’ve always thought we already were…

Sigh…

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  06/25  at  09:56 AM

All the parental-blame shit is just that, shit.  We had similar circumstance in my daughter’s last-two public schools (before we went to homeschooling).  The first was a mostly=white school where the white kids (with one mixed-race girl with white adoptive parents) went to the Enriched Spanish Immersion track and the black kids, with a very minor white population of about 10%, went to general program. 

During that time my daughter was routinely bullied by a rich, white (sociopath in training) kid whose “saintly mother” volunteered at the school.  Every thing he did was met with incredulity and a lack of effort at discipline by the administration because he was a “good kid” from a “good family.”  Yet some very honest and decent black kid (one of the three children I let my daughter hang out with) from my neighborhood wore his pants “too low” and he “must be in a gang” got suspended even though his pants were low (like a stereotypical plumber) because he was a chubby-bunny and he couldn’t pull them up the way they wanted…

He was as every bit middle class as the white kids.  And, though a year behind my daughter, one of the few they allowed in the Spanish immersion program.

Anyway, the white sociopath bully kept this crap up from second through fourth grade.  I would routinely ask the school administration to take care of the problem, but they never did.  Finally, in fourth grade I finally blew my stack and ripped the Principal from one-end down to another about five minutes after the little bastard came up to me and told me, to my face, my daughter was “stupid” even though she was, like him, in gifted and talented.

Besides the screaming (and I was screaming), I let her know LAWYERS WERE THE NEXT STEP and I would be going after her job if she didn’t shape up and start doing it.  The little shit-head was suspended three times in two weeks for his bullying and the problem went away.

Anyway, it’s just a “just so” story.  But I keep seeing it.  Year after year.

I won’t got too far on the Magnet school my daughter went to.  It was “white suburban kids” in an “inner city school” academic magnet.  Holy fuck, they treated those kids like criminals.  It even spilled over to the white kids by the end of the year.  We left in March and went to homeschooling because we thought the district had lost its mind and was going “boot camp” style education.

Later we learned the predominantly white middle school she would have went to is your typical “laid back” white-kids middle-school.  The insane discipline wasn’t district wide—it was black school specific.  Again, a “just so” story.

But I’ve seen hundreds of these “just so” stories within my district.  So I have a tendency to believe this report is accurate.  It certainly fits with five-and-one-half years of my observations of the local district and the way the student populations are handled.

Comment #7: MosesZD  on  06/25  at  10:02 AM

Once again, careful attention to a detailed, but transparent statistical analysis gives racism no where to hide.

I’ve heard similar excuses made for why the schools with large percentages of minority students have to be run like prison camps for their own good/greater achievement/collegeboundness, etc.

Jesse, if you need any help designing further analytical tests of excuses for this bullshit, let me know.  It sounds like you have a good data set going, but somebody is going to say “but black kids are poor so they don’t know how to act”, and you are going to have to sift that out.

Comment #8: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  10:11 AM

This goes far beyond just school.  If authority figures expect someone to be bad, they will watch that person closely and will eventually find what they are looking.  An example of this is store employees following around black people and other minorities suspecting them of shoplifting.  Of course you’ll find more black people shoplifting because you’re watching them more closely.

It’s not just about race either, although that certainly plays a big part.  I was on the other side of this issue and I knew from a very early age that I could get away with anything, because I was just a Good Kid(TM) and every adult knew that.  I’m sure part of it was due to my being white and female, but I really was a teacher’s pet and rarely did anything bad.  In fourth grade, I had a crush on this boy, Matt.  His eraser rolled across the room and he asked me to throw it to him.  I was afraid of getting in trouble, but he was so cute that I did it anyway.  The teacher scolded him for it even though he was clearly the one catching and not throwing.  The teacher never even suspected that a Good Kid(TM) like me could be involved.  Fortunately, Matt didn’t get any punishment other than warning for such a minor thing.  This was before we had those crazy zero tolerance policies.

I read an essay in one of my sociology classes about this same scenario where race wasn’t a factor, and it was about rich kids in a town getting away with more than the poor kids of the town.  I’ll see if I can find the author and title when I get home.

Comment #9: bananacat  on  06/25  at  10:13 AM

It seems like many middle school and High school teachers really don’t like it when kids exceed their expectations, it seems to threaten their world view and perhaps implys that some teachers are not real good at bringing out the best in their students.  One way to deal with this is to sabotage students who don’t know their “place” and declaring a student a discplinary problem is a great way to do that.

I wonder if teachers know they are doing this or if in their mind they are just protecting the good students from the “bad” students.

Comment #10: John Rove  on  06/25  at  10:15 AM

Oh, and I have to say: I’m lucky that our school system is so incredibly mixed that black kids would be hard to identify, let alone single out.  There was a lot of problems when they opened the new schools and retired a bunch of lazy ass old white principals and put the best administrators in charge of the remaining, much larger, much more diverse rebuilt schools. Suddenly, a lot of white kids who had been skating were getting properly disciplined for their bullying behavior (which had escallated in their new environments where it wasn’t just accepted because their dad had been a bully, too ...). Their parents were getting called in to the office to account for the behavior problems, and several of them were banned from the bus system for varying lenghts of time before they finally got the message that THIS WAS NOT OKAY.

Comment #11: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  10:17 AM

I read an essay in one of my sociology classes about this same scenario where race wasn’t a factor, and it was about rich kids in a town getting away with more than the poor kids of the town.  I’ll see if I can find the author and title when I get home.

I think the assumption gets made that all black kids are poor kids and the bullshit marches merrily along.

Comment #12: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  10:19 AM

sorry ... there WERE a lot of problems ...

Comment #13: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  10:20 AM

Hell, I saw this in my school system in the 70’s-80’s.  The weapon of choice was detention, of course, but still applied with zero-tolerance efficiency.  The elementary schools at this time were being partnered with one another, linking white middle-class neighborhoods with schools in minority neighborhoods.  But I’m just one kid, and it’s all anecdotal.

Comment #14: idiosynchronic  on  06/25  at  10:30 AM

Thank you so much for posting on this subject.  As a young high school teacher, I’ve found that our schools do an incredible job of indoctrinating kids into an unfair system and preparing them to be apathetic to injustice around them. 

Even worse, many kids who are constantly the target of this kind of discipline internalize the messages they receive from teachers and administrators.  They often think of themselves as “bad kids” who can’t do anything right.  Kids who call “racism” on authority figures aren’t much better off; they are automatically silenced with the trouble-maker label.  At my last school (which I’m thankfully leaving) punishments were given by administrators in stomach-turning ways. 

Example:  I sent a student (a white boy) to the office for calling another student (a black girl) “darkness” and telling her that he was going to burn a cross on her lawn.  The administrator had a talk with him and sent me an email saying he didn’t need to be punished because he was “just joking.”  The kid continued the behavior, because the attitude of the adults (aka the white male administrator) around him reinforced it.  I had to report the behavior to the principal, who also decided the best solution would be to have another “stern talk with the boy”...disgusting..

Oh…and…about three weeks later, I sent a black student to the office for skipping the last 30 minutes of my class to go to Sonic…he got three days of in-school suspension…

I’ve honestly just stopped sending kids to the office.  I mean…really?  Skipping 30 minutes of Art to go get some cheese fries is considered a punishable offense, but hate speech isn’t?  yuck. yuck. yuck.

Comment #15: ak  on  06/25  at  10:34 AM

I saw a presentation on this at the Texas ACLU meeting.  It’s so out of control in some places in the South that it’s pretty openly being used to resegregate, by creating permanent detention/special ed schools to shuffle most of the black students into.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/25  at  10:44 AM

It seems like many middle school and High school teachers really don’t like it when kids exceed their expectations,
John Rove on 06/25 at 09:15 AM

Uhh yup!  I’m currently engaged in battle - and there is no other word for it - diplomacy was found to fail a couple years ago - with the local school system and board.  These idiots refuse (illegally) to test a kid for early admission to kindergarten.  The kid who has been reading since age three.  (not my kid).  The same school system that refuses to accelerate kids later unless parents raise hell, and refuses, although the state specifically designed a broad based planning committee to be representative of the community.  They loaded it with school personnel, and then found a parent who couldn’t attend a single meeting!

Part of the problem is teachers unions, though I’m pretty pro-union otherwise.  One of the things we’ve suggested in lieu of spending like $96Million on a high school addition is to “allow” virtual education through a gifted program like Stanford’s EPGY or Johns Hopkins great programs but pricey from a homeschool curriculum perspective, a real bargain from a public school per student perspective.  Of course they panicked, because it would mean that kids could learn without someone there to force them todo it while they were incarcerated in the public school building.  Thus, all those teachers and administrators were unnecessary - yes, the emperor was nekkid.

Comment #17: phylosopher  on  06/25  at  10:48 AM

In my high school, black kids were fairly rare—we probably had between 10-30 at any time in a student population of 800-1000.  And in my school, most of the black kids were also in sports.  So they had that ... Jock Protection.  (The quarterback brought a switchblade to school and didn’t even get suspended.  Imagine that.  He was white, but I don’t think that really makes a difference if he’s the quarterback.)  Plus, our administration was two white women and a black guy, and all three were really awesome as far as school administrators go (it went to shit after I left), and I think they were pretty fair as far as sex and race were concerned.

The kids who were unfairly targeted were usually the druggie/wiccan/punk/goth kids, who usually all fell into one category including those four cliques.  I had a friend who was my opposite—she was mouthy and did drugs and smoked and hung out with the bad crowd—but was also in the gifted program with me and very talented and so on.  But I saw the administration pick on her all the time.  She wasn’t poor by any means, so I would be hesitant to say that it had anything to do with class.  Most of the kids in my school came from poor families.  But she was in that “outsider” group where they wear spiked collars and black nail polish and play at being wiccans and whatever, and that was the daaaaangerous group.  Especially after Columbine happened in my sophomore year. 

But yeah.  Kids in that “group” didn’t have to do anything particularly bad.  They were bad by association.  So you could be black and that was fine.  You could be poor and that was fine.  But wear a pentagram or dye your hair funny colors and everyone will put you under a big freakin’ microscope.  A few teachers were cool about the kids who were “different,” but let’s just say that ... most were not.

(As I said, everything kinda went to shit after I left, so I dunno what crap they’re pulling now except people have to leave room for Jesus at school dances and wear dresses with sleeves or something.  Hoooooboy.)

Comment #18: BonAppetit  on  06/25  at  10:54 AM

I think there are a lot of issues here, which when blurred make the situation hard to understand. Its worth isolating them to get a sharper picture of what’s happening.

1.) Offenses like “insubordination”, which are not covered under zero tolerance and leave a lot to the judgment of teachers and administrators. In this area, especially, the offense and the penalty are in the eye of the beholder and unconscious beliefs or active prejudices can easily come into play.

2.) Offenses like assault or possession of drugs or a dangerous weapon on campus or some other serious offense. Yes, there are *some* judgment calls to be made (a student with a regular tylenol, minor horseplay, a nail file) but by and large it *isn’t* a grey area.

3.) “Zero Tolerance” policies being used as a shield for administrators suspending students for trivial offenses that a reasonable person would not consider serious (see above). Or students being denied a fair shot at due process when facing suspension.

I’ve worked in education for 10 years . . . 5 years as a substitute teacher and 5 years as a high school counselor. My experience is anecdotal, but for what its worth here it is.

1.) Consistent, fair, and robust discipline and classroom management is absolutely necessary for creating safe learning a environment.

2.) Teachers often need better practical skills in managing students behavior and in recognizing cultural differences, but at the same time students *must* be willing to adapt their behavior to fit the classroom. Schools should offer interventions to help students gain those skills (which are essential for participation in society).

3.) Students who persistently misbehave or who have extreme misbehavior need serious consequences. If such behavior is tolerated it will spread throughout the school and all students will suffer.

4.) Accountability cannot simply be for students. Administrators need to monitor teachers discipline, local educational authorities need to monitor schools discipline (particularly for serious offenses) and LEAs should be monitored by states to make sure the process is fair and not abused.

5.) Out-of-school suspension is a huge waste and should be avoided. At the same time, anecdotes about a few absurd suspensions don’t speak to whether or not the bulk of suspensions were justified or not.

In my mind schools need to have a rigorous process in place to *prevent* discipline problems, consistent punishments in line with the seriousness of offenses, and independent oversight of the entire process to make sure that it is balanced. But at the end of the day, when you have a large school with thousands of students, you need rules in order to keep everyone safe.

Comment #19: Leanmc  on  06/25  at  10:57 AM

Amanda’s right, it is out of control in the South, especially in Texas where the school districts convinced the state to pay the “alternative” schools AND pay the school money for the same student.  After that, there is zero interest in doing anything but shuffling the black (and hispanic) kids to the alternative schools, which of course are overwhelmingly black and hispanic, and which disrupts their educations as well since they don’t have the funding or teachers to even offer all of the necessary classes these students need, especially in the higher grades.  We “fired” the school district and homeschooled our daughter through high school.  Three years later, she’s graduated and now working on her Associates.  We’ve already decided that when the grands come, we’ll just homeschool them too.  Screw the schools.

Comment #20: Pockysmama  on  06/25  at  10:58 AM

There is an extensive body of research in the social sciences on this kind discrimination against minorities in the schools (which documents exactly this kind of disparity) and its consequences going back almost 50 years.  My personal knowledge is specific to Native Americans, who are my research population, but there is comparable research for African Americans and Hispanics.

Comment #21: DrDick  on  06/25  at  11:00 AM

The cycle-of-racism part of this is crucial, because once a kid learns that good behavior doesn’t pay off in good treatment, you’ve pretty much lost them.  There’s a sort of sick irony here as well, which is that the most obvious bad behavior can come from the most biddable kids; the longterm bullies typically have learned to (superficially) cover their tracks and lie more convincingly.

Comment #22: paul  on  06/25  at  11:04 AM

2.) Offenses like assault or possession of drugs or a dangerous weapon on campus or some other serious offense. Yes, there are *some* judgment calls to be made (a student with a regular tylenol, minor horseplay, a nail file) but by and large it *isn’t* a grey area.

Actually, most of the zero tolerance issues at my school were those gray areas.  I remember hiding my nail clipper and file so I wouldn’t get suspended.  I get a lot of hangnails and I have OCD which means I’ll go crazy if I can’t cut them, so I couldn’t just leave the clipper at home.  There was never an incident with an actual weapon at my school.  Every single zero tolerance issue was a gray area.  There was one time when one person actually smoked a cigarette in the bathroom, and she didn’t get caught.  Other than that, people got in trouble for birth control pills (some women have to take them at lunch because they get sick if they take them in the morning), OTC pain relievers, prescription inhalers, and nail files.  Having a gun or real knife is already punishable and doesn’t need zero tolerance to punished harshly.  But the gray stuff is much more common than the truly dangerous stuff in most schools, even the bad ones.  And that’s where the discrimination in punishment comes in.

Comment #23: bananacat  on  06/25  at  11:10 AM

“Other than that, people got in trouble for birth control pills (some women have to take them at lunch because they get sick if they take them in the morning), OTC pain relievers, prescription inhalers, and nail files.  Having a gun or real knife is already punishable and doesn’t need zero tolerance to punished harshly.  But the gray stuff is much more common than the truly dangerous stuff in most schools, even the bad ones.  And that’s where the discrimination in punishment comes in.”

If a student has a prescription for a drug, they can simply have it locked up in the main office for when they need it. Depending on your state, there are rules to allow students to carry inhalers for asthma or syringes for diabetes etc provided there is proper paperwork on file. The legal liabilities for allowing students to carry controlled substances on campus without oversight is too great.

As for weapons, reading Michigan’s zero-tolerance policy possession of a simple nail file ought not fall under the category of weapon. But (for example) baseball bats or golf clubs can be used as weapons but are allowed at schools when they are specifically for those sports. Tire irons are allowed in cars or to be used to change flat tires. But brass knuckles? Numchucks? I’m sorry, but just because some administrators misuse or unwisely classify a non-weapon as a weapon does not mean that school officials do not need the ability to punish students for bringing actual weapons to school.

Of course, I think that all zero-tolerance suspensions ought to be reviewed by an independent panel.

Comment #24: Leanmc  on  06/25  at  11:22 AM

I would say the thing that schools teach best is how to prepare yourself for the job market. Dogged obedience is the one skill most valued by corporate management.

Better believe it. The boring, prison-like atmosphere created by American public school administrators is exactly what the Human Resources Culture wants.

Comment #25: Gracchus.  on  06/25  at  11:36 AM

Meanwhile strip searching 13 year olds at school is officially NOT LEGAL!

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  11:40 AM

but just because some administrators misuse or unwisely classify a non-weapon as a weapon does not mean that school officials do not need the ability to punish students for bringing actual weapons to school.

When did anyone ever say that schools should not have the ability to punish students for bringing actual weapons to school?  Guess what?  Schools punished students for actual weapons long before zero tolerance polices.  I guess the better point is that just because some people need to punished for bringing an actual weapon to school, that is not justification for punishing someone who has a nail file.

If a student has a prescription for a drug, they can simply have it locked up in the main office for when they need it. Depending on your state, there are rules to allow students to carry inhalers for asthma or syringes for diabetes etc provided there is proper paperwork on file. The legal liabilities for allowing students to carry controlled substances on campus without oversight is too great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  I’ve heard it all before and it means nothing to the schools.  They make you jump through a million hoops to bring medication to school.  A prescription alone is not enough.  Even then, they have a policy of keeping emergency inhalers in the nurse’s office where they’re not particularly useful anymore.  It doesn’t matter what the laws are if the school disregards them and there is no enforcement.  As for birth control pills, well it’s just not practical to leave them with the nurse.  Students get 4 minutes between classes and my school building was huge.  There was barely enough time to even stop at your locker, so many students carried all their books all day.  Of course you’re not allowed to run OR be late to class either.  Pile on top of that an incompetent nurse who assumes every student is faking everything and would surely slut-shame any student who was using birth control pills.  Also, it’s a privacy thing.  Of course, many people think that teens just shouldn’t have any rights and their privacy doesn’t matter, but a school nurse really should not get to know which students take birth control pills.  For any type of OTC painkiller, there’s just no way at all to leave them with the nurse.  You’d have to get a prescription first and the nurse would still give you a hard time about taking them.  Students can’t simply do anything.  The real world is different.

And most importantly, the black kids who are being punished unfairly are not bringing actual dangerous weapons or drugs to school.  The kids we are talking about in this article are being singled out for bad but not terrible behavior, while the white kids are getting away with the exact same behaviors.

Comment #27: bananacat  on  06/25  at  11:42 AM

Leanmc, let’s not argue this one again. There is no such thing as free movement on a modern school campus and asking your teacher to let you go to the office and then explaining to two or three people on the way that you need to go take your birth control pill is way more of a burden of interference and a violation of privacy than I think is remotely appropriate. (At my high school the trendy-delinquent thing was to drink Everclear out of plastic water bottles, for chrissake; I kept waiting for them to ban water. Because you can always go to the water fountain in the hallway! During the four-minute class change during which you aren’t allowed to loiter!). Also, let’s consider that in North Carolina it’s illegal for a school nurse to distribute or provide birth control. That’s kind of a key point here. It’s supposed to apply to condom distribution, but my school nurse in high school was very right-wing and frantically religious, so that would not have been the place to test it if the alternative was getting knocked up at age sixteen.

Blackbloc, it was not until I got my first soulless bureaucratic job that I realized what elementary school had been for. I just sat and filled out forms all day! It was like fourth grade all over again! It is my goal to some day get far enough up the career ladder that it’s something like high school. (At the same time, my soulless bureaucratic job provided health coverage and put you within 90% of the poverty line, which, if I was a single mother with a GED - as some of my coworkers were - that would be a literal lifesaver and I don’t want to ignore that fact. Elementary school skills were keeping food in a lot of people’s mouths.)

Comment #28: purpleshoes  on  06/25  at  11:42 AM

I would say the thing that schools teach best is how to prepare yourself for the job market. Dogged obedience is the one skill most valued by corporate management.

It may be like this in some industries, but not all of them, and certainly not at any of the places I have worked.  There are certain safety and legal regulations that we must follow, but transgressions are punished by scale, and people rarely get fired for a first offense unless it is really major.

Comment #29: bananacat  on  06/25  at  11:44 AM

I had a longer post earlier, but it’s either Tipping Point or Outliers that makes a point that people that are successful tend to have parents from an upper middle class to rich background that makes them feel free to challenge authority, while lower class parents tend to obey the authority.

So when a teacher conference is called, upper class management style comes in and parents will challenge the teachers to do their jobs and will believe their children.  In the lower class situations, the parents automatically assume the teacher is telling the truth and vow that the child will be punished and will have to perform better.

The fact that those parents know that they can fight the system is an advantage, b/c if their child is being mistreated or falsely labelled, they can fight it.  Whereas simply obeying authority results in a continuation of this system.

I went round the wringer on this one with my eldest—>we’re out of parochial school precisely b/c his preschool teacher, with her Masters and no prior experience teaching, decided that he had an “anger problem” the third week of school when he lost his temper and growled like Godzilla.  She’d never heard any child make a noise like that before.  I knew he’d practiced getting that roar just right.

She and her sycophantic social worker assistant insisted my kid had ADHD, anger issues, low self-esteem, and a couple of other serious issues, and that he needed to be medicated and probably wouldn’t be able to keep attending a ‘normal’ school.

We played the game.  We took him to the University of Chicago and had him analyzed by a team of psychiatrists, who said that the school was wrong about EVERYTHING, however, that he was impaired in that classroom.

Yeah.  B/c his teacher decided after 3 weeks that there was something wrong with him and created a self-fulfilling prophecy.

He was not invited back.

We sent him off to the public school, where I met with the VP and his teacher before the school year started to get ahead of the issues.  His kindergarten teacher, with 8 years of experience, came up to me after the first week of school and said, “There’s nothing wrong with this kid.  He might be a little immature, but nothing out of the ordinary.  This ends here.

I should thank the evil preschool teacher for saving us thousands of dollars, since none of my kids are ever going to Catholic school.

It’s been a learning curve, though.  In further conferences, I go in and let teachers know my kid is a handful, and that I will support them as much as I can, but I expect them to do their jobs and treat him appropriately.  He’s needed some occupational therapy for fine motor issues, which led to much frustration—>he is brilliant at reading and creating stories, but the physical act of writing was so hard for him.  He’s slow and his handwriting looks like that of a much younger child.  CPS accommodates him with therapy and extended test times, and he’s an honor roll student now.

Even if you go in trusting the authority, they can still screw with you.  We PAID to have an incompetent hack derail my kid’s education—it took almost a year for him to recover from being called the “bad kid”, and he still has issues with it on occasion.

You have to know that you can challenge the authority, and that you are due fair treatment, and that you can demand it.  Parents who are working full-time and who trust the system might not have the ability to challenge it—I was a full time mom, and it took me a year to learn how to work it.

If you go in thinking that the system is rigged against you anyway, and tell your kids just to stay out of trouble, then the crappy system can go on.  No individual parent is going to be able to tell that it’s racism, at least not in a credible way, and not just their kid.  We need the study and then we need ACTION on the study and then we need a future study to prove the problem’s been solved.

Comment #30: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/25  at  11:45 AM

Caren, I would not be surprised if race and class play really heavily into whose parents get away with yelling at the principal. I went to an elementary school with a lot of poor white people, and I imagine ducking-and-covering is better than having your family classified as trashy and that being the end of that.

Comment #31: purpleshoes  on  06/25  at  11:53 AM

Jesse, please report on your work more often. It is critically important and I am especially interested since you will probably be going to some of the schools that I attended in Detroit. Things there have changed dramatically for the worse since I was a kid so finding a school where there aren’t tons of social problems brought on by the unfortunate effects of poverty may be impossible. And finding a diverse school (and by that I mean one with more than 10 white kids) to study within city limits is definitely impossible. Please write more on this topic. I’m very interested in what you find and I sincerely hope that we as a society have moved at least a little bit beyond “Death at an Early Age.”

Comment #32: DC Fem  on  06/25  at  11:53 AM

“Schools punished students for actual weapons long before zero tolerance polices.  I guess the better point is that just because some people need to punished for bringing an actual weapon to school, that is not justification for punishing someone who has a nail file.”

Yes, and schools used arbitrary punishments long before zero tolerance policies, also. Absent a zero tolerance policy schools could *still* classify a nail file as a weapon and punish students unfairly unless there was a meaningful independent review process to make sure students have due process. What zero tolerance policies *ought* to do is make sure that every person who violates the policy is punished *and* have that punishment reviewed for fairness. Zero tolerance policies are supposed to *prevent* arbitrary and selective punishment. The problem is a lack of monitoring those decisions. All long-term suspensions should be reviewed for appropriateness.

“For any type of OTC painkiller, there’s just no way at all to leave them with the nurse.  You’d have to get a prescription first and the nurse would still give you a hard time about taking them.  Students can’t simply do anything.  The real world is different. “

Yes, you *can* get a prescription for OTC painkillers. You *can* leave them with the nurse. If the nurse violates their professional ethics by giving you a hard time about taking your medicine, you can report them to their boards. And if the laws in your state don’t protect the rights of students to get appropriate, confidential medical treatment as prescribed by their doctors then you can argue that those laws need to be changed. If a student has a prescription to take a pill daily, then that *can* be simply accommodated (especially if, as you mentioned, the pill was to be taken *at lunch*). That may not be so at every school . . . but it *ought* to be. Its safer and more realistic to change incompetent, unethical medical practices at schools rather than allowing students to simply walk around with drugs.

“And most importantly, the black kids who are being punished unfairly are not bringing actual dangerous weapons or drugs to school. The kids we are talking about in this article are being singled out for bad but not terrible behavior, while the white kids are getting away with the exact same behaviors.”

Well no. That’s simply not true. The *anecdotes* in the article are about kids who had punishments that seemed disproportionate. You might personally believe this to be the case. But the article really doesn’t speak to whether or not the differences in suspension rates by race were due to unfair discipline or whether white kids got away with the same behavior. There weren’t *any* examples of students who were fairly punished and no way to discern what proportion of these suspensions were just and what were unjust.

I would like to see better statistics of the suspensions broken down by race and type of offense. I would like to see better statistics within categories like suspension for weapons or drugs to specify the type of weapon or drug. I think that stricter independent oversight of discipline is absolutely necessary. I think that this is a real problem and needs to be addressed in a systematic way and that schools need to be held accountable.

I’m not really sure where we disagree, unless its that I think that schools *can* be fair and that we need processes in place to make sure that happens whereas I don’t really see what your solution to this problem would be.

Comment #33: Leanmc  on  06/25  at  12:18 PM

Well no. That’s simply not true.

No offense, but it is true, given that it’s what we’re talking about.

Comment #34: Jesse Taylor  on  06/25  at  12:20 PM

purpleshoes, there’s no question that race and class play into it.

I’m still pissed off b/c my kid was treated like shit—this despite the fact I WAS Catholic, white, and my kid is brilliant.  Had he looked more like his father, we probably wouldn’t have lasted the school year.

My son has received a far more “Christian” education—as in respecting your peers and not being allowed to clique up or bully—at CPS than he ever did in Catholic school.  Cliquing seems to be a feature and not a bug there.


——————-

Ms Kate—have you read Thomas’ dissent?! :O He’s going on and on about how she could have hidden pills in her underwear, that she wouldn’t have been the first, and now lots of girls will be hiding things in their underwear b/c this ruling makes underwear the safest hiding place.

1st, he’s thinking about teenage girls’ underwear and what’s underneath it WAY too much.  2nd, he doesn’t think teenagers deserve to have their underwear *be* a safe place.

This man does not belong on the Court.  But of course no one could take the word of Anita Hill, she was black AND female.  Uppity.

Comment #35: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/25  at  12:21 PM

Leanmc, please stop being an official denial apologist for the system.  The school system should have the burden to prove that it is dispensing discipline fairly, not the other way around.

Comment #36: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  12:25 PM

Leanmc—suppose it’s true that the black kids are all suspended for drug or gang issues.  WHY would that be the case?  It still indicates a failure of the school system to educate and protect children if they aren’t white.

AS for the rest of your pie-in-the-sky—yeah, that’s how it SHOULD be and that’s even how many of the laws are written.  We’re talking about how it is in reality, and this study shows that a disproportionate amount of punishment is allotted to minority students.  That’s an unacceptable failure as it indicates either punishing those students more harshly or failing to educate them safely.  It’s not a failure on the kids’ part; it’s a failure on the entire school system’s part.

Unless you believe black kids are just bad and that they’re all gang-banging druggies by nature, the study indicates a problem in the SYSTEM and demands a systemic response.

Comment #37: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/25  at  12:27 PM

Caren, note that Thomas was the ONLY dissenting justice.  He just can’t seem to get past his right to what is in a 13 year old girl’s underwear.  The rest seem to have had their consciousness raised.

Comment #38: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  12:28 PM

Caren, oh, I completely understand. One of my favorite children in the world wound up in three-days-a-week occupational therapy because it was the only way to keep him in a private school even though he liked to fidget and sometimes had trouble being self-directed. He was four. The public school system did a masterful job of treating him like a normal child and just moving him to a teacher who could handle a high-energy kid.

Comment #39: purpleshoes  on  06/25  at  12:30 PM

Yes, you *can* get a prescription for OTC painkillers. You *can* leave them with the nurse.

Not with the nurse at my school.  Also, do you suggest that every single student go to a doctor and get a prescription for a painkiller that they only need for an occasional headache or cramps?  I doubt that many doctors would be willing to even write a prescription for stuff like that.  If the prescription says “take as needed” the nurse will assume you’re faking your headache to get drugs, because nurses do not trust students to know when they need pain medication.  The only way to get it is to have a prescription that says to take it daily, and then you’d be taking way more medication than you need, all just to get rid of an occasional headache.  You’re living in a fantasy world.  The real world is a bit different.

If the nurse violates their professional ethics by giving you a hard time about taking your medicine, you can report them to their boards. And if the laws in your state don’t protect the rights of students to get appropriate, confidential medical treatment as prescribed by their doctors then you can argue that those laws need to be changed.

Yeah, right.  The boards will always side with the nurse over a teenager.  Same thing for any judge where the laws already exist.  If the laws don’t exist, are we supposed to tell students in pain to just wait a few years while we get this law changed?

Zero tolerance policies are supposed to *prevent* arbitrary and selective punishment.

Well, they do eliminate arbitrary punishment, because everyone gets the exact same punishment regardless of how bad their crime is.

The problem is a lack of monitoring those decisions. All long-term suspensions should be reviewed for appropriateness.

And who would monitor all these decisions?  The people monitoring will almost always side with a teacher over a student.  Welcome to the real world.

Comment #40: bananacat  on  06/25  at  12:34 PM

If a student has a prescription for a drug, they can simply have it locked up in the main office for when they need it.

Purpleshoes at 10:42 has already had a good run at this, but there is one other factor.  Even if we magically cured the problems noted by purpleshoes, one unmentioned one would remain.  In just about every school I’ve ever been to as either student or parent the main office staff were the most sullen, hostile, condescending women I’ve ever met.  (It hasn’t changed in 30 years.  My younger daughter’s previous school secretary was inches away from an explosion from me one day for that very reason. )  I can’t imagine being so cruel as to force a teenage girl to go through the humiliation of having to Oliver Twist herself into an obsequious knot every day just to get her BCP from one of those sneering toads.

Comment #41: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  12:36 PM

I’m not really sure where we disagree, unless its that I think that schools *can* be fair and that we need processes in place to make sure that happens whereas I don’t really see what your solution to this problem would be.
Leanmc on 06/25 at 11:18 AM

I call bullshit, Leanmc.  States differ; my state is one that leans heavily to giving the local school board shitloads of control - even if it means they subvert policies specifically put in place at the state level. Yeah, I’ll continue to jerk their chains as a taxpayer, and fighting at the state level for appropriate gt funding, but we’ll be back to homeschooling next year - it’s less trouble then fighting the system full time.

Comment #42: phylosopher  on  06/25  at  12:37 PM

Purpleshoes, not sure what you are saying when you write: “Leanmc, let’s not argue this one again. There is no such thing as free movement on a modern school campus and asking your teacher to let you go to the office and then explaining to two or three people on the way that you need to go take your birth control pill is way more of a burden of interference and a violation of privacy than I think is remotely appropriate.”

Every single day in pretty much every single school in the USA students leave class to take medicine that is prescribed by their doctors. Students get hall passes from teachers, it is not a big deal. Its not rocket science. Its routine. You typically don’t have to pass checkpoints and gatekeepers and explain in detail precisely why you have to go to the office. Maybe the schools in your area are Kafkaesque and don’t give students passes to go to the office for medical treatment. If the nurses or whoever is in charge of administering medication in your school does not respect the confidentiality of students regarding medication, that is a problem that ought to be addressed either by existing rules regarding medical privacy or by creating such rules. Privacy is very important.

You mention North Carolina, and maybe I’m wrong but NC General Statute 115C-375.1 allows nurses or any other authorized school employee “to administer any drugs or medication prescribed by a doctor upon written request of the parents”. That would seem to include birth control pills, but if I’m wrong I’m wrong.

Comment #43: Leanmc  on  06/25  at  12:37 PM

This racism hits at all levels.

So, let’s begin with the fact—pretty much proven by study—that racism impacts quality of care in medicine. That is, one’s quality of care is poorest when one is a minority being treated by a white doctor, and the quality improves when both involved are minorities. To its credit, the doctors and professionals of the medical establishment were suitably appalled by the findings.

Now extend that concept to teaching.

Clearly, in the short-term, at least, we’d want to see an increase in minority teachers. Since black teachers haven’t been found to treat white children in a discriminatory fashion, they are particularly valuable.

Which is why Obama’s pals are firing them en mass. Oops.

Part of the problem is teachers unions, though I’m pretty pro-union otherwise. 

In the link I gave above, the teacher’s union was complicit in the discrimination. Unions are in a very bad position from jump: they are supposed to represent their members, and their members alone, but they are often the only large organization in the system that speaks for the children (since the city and state can happily abandons the kids). However, this is hardly a barrier from union corruption, and such corruption thereby leads to what is scientifically known as “epic clusterfuck.”

Comment #44: No One of Consequence  on  06/25  at  12:40 PM

If the nurse violates their professional ethics by giving you a hard time about taking your medicine, you can report them to their boards. And if the laws in your state don’t protect the rights of students to get appropriate, confidential medical treatment as prescribed by their doctors then you can argue that those laws need to be changed.

The head nurse for our district, a brainless total hack of a woman with no modern inputs, has so far:

sent out 25 year old forms and then defended it with a letter saying “but those are the ones that the state sent us”, when 45 seconds on the internets produced the proper ones in .pdf format

claimed that having a couch in a classroom “spread the flu”, yet said nothing when the school system refused to turn on the AC in the middle of a flu EPIDEMIC when ventilation and protection from ambient ozone are major limiting factors in flu transmission (I’ve done this sort of research or supervised it for years and I have never seen an uphostered furnishings variable in an analysis of flu transmission; AC and air pollution are biggies!)

Why the hell should I expect this woman to know or issue policies containing knowledge of any important public health or medical event since 1984?  One of the key reasons you keep incompetents like this around is they do what they are told.

Comment #45: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  12:41 PM

Leanmc  on  06/25  at  11:18 AM
If a student has a prescription to take a pill daily, then that *can* be simply accommodated (especially if, as you mentioned, the pill was to be taken *at lunch*). That may not be so at every school . . . but it *ought* to be. Its safer and more realistic to change incompetent, unethical medical practices at schools rather than allowing students to simply walk around with drugs.

Um, no it’s not. It’s completely unrealistic to expect to review and correct a broken system that is the standard model for all schools in the country in a timely fashion. It’s a foolish thing to claim.

And the stats back up disproportionate punishment for blacks. More importantly, so do policies. The “military schools” (think about that oxymoron) and strict-discipline privitized schools single out black communities, and only black communities, nationwide. I know of no exceptions.

Comment #46: No One of Consequence  on  06/25  at  12:41 PM

As a special ed teacher back in the day, I remember the absolutely alarming statistics regarding black kids who were labeled as having Behavior Disorders, Emotional Disorders, ADHD, and other learning disabilities. I was a consultant who traveled from school to school (this was in Nebraska) and would go into self-contained classrooms for kids with these labels. It never failed. These were very predominantly white schools with a few black or Hispanics kids. And I would go into the classroom for kids with behavior disorders and 9 out of 10 of them would be black or hispanic. And really, the majority of these kids really didn’t seem have many behavioral issues at all in the lower elementary grades, but by the upper grades, the same kids would have learned a crapload of self-fulfilling bad behaviors. I would sit in IEP meetings and just be shocked at these teachers/specialists that would swear up and down in pearl clutching shock that race had nothing to do with these kids being predominantly put in Sped for behavior problems, yet would sit there and not qualify a white kid for services while qualifying a black kid when both exhibited very similar behaviors. It was a way to get kids out of the regular classroom that teachers didn’t want to deal with, and they basically manufactured kids with behavior problems. School to jail pipeline, indeed.

Comment #47: Lexie  on  06/25  at  12:46 PM

Ms. Kate:

It’s the classic bureaucratic dilemma, isn’t it?  The battle between process people and outcome people.  Process people tend to gravitate towards bureaucratic positions and take “blocker” roles: the rules before the point of the rules.

You can give up on Leanmc, by the way.  His view of schools is the same as Andrew Sullivan’s view of conservatism and catholicism: don’t judge them by what they are, or how they operate, judge them by a notional platonic ideal of what they could and should be in a perfect world.

Comment #48: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  12:46 PM

Since black teachers haven’t been found to treat white children in a discriminatory fashion, they are particularly valuable.

Maybe, in general, that is true.  Unfortunately, the administrators they refer the kids to for discipline may not be so enlightened.

Furthermore, my niece had a black teacher who slammed her white first grade classmate’s head into a desk for not coloring a halloween cat the “right” color, and then threatened the class if they told.  My niece did tell anyway, and the other kids backed up the story when separately interviewed, YET THE TEACHER WAS NOT FIRED!

Anecdote? Yes.  Individual story? Yes.  True?  Yes. 

The fact is, incompetence is incompetence and the teacher unions protect incompetence and that is why people get fed up with them.  While it may be harder for black teachers to get employed in the first place, and they thus tend to be more competent, there are incompetent teachers of every color out there and some of them are vindictive and burnt out.

Comment #49: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  12:48 PM

Ms Kate:
Add to that the fact that union leadership tends to be made up of people who like being obstructionist assholes who protect other incompetents.  Back in the day when I practiced in a firm that did employment law we had a steady stream of workers through the door who’d been jerked around by their unions: the lazy asshole steward would protect his lazy asshole buddy and railroad the hardworking guy, that sort of thing.

I was and am union, but they’re a bit like firearms or guard dogs: they have to be carefully tended and monitored or, inevitably, somebody will get hurt.

Comment #50: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  12:52 PM

Further, let’s not forget this reality: that petty, mean-spirited people tend to gravitate towards those places where those views can cause the most damage and thus, for the wielder, emotional satisfaction.  The greater the external need for them to change, the greater their indulgence of their obstructionist tendencies.  The classic example remains the DC clerk who was in charge of the flints for the muskets as the British and Canadians were approaching Washington.  When faced with protests against his giving them out individually with a careful count of each his response was to simply take them back and start his count again.

Comment #51: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  12:58 PM

Leanmc, I actually do agree with you that this is the best course when we’re talking eleven-year-olds with something that has as high a resale value as Adderal that has to be taken in as precise a daily course. It’s still a violation of privacy (everyone in your class will know what you’re doing, trust me) but it falls within the reasonable curtailment of the civil liberties of a child in order to provide for the safety of that child. I will never believe that it is the best course for a sixteen-year-old with birth control pills. The only reasons for a sixteen-year-old to give someone else her birth control pills is if that someone else also needs contraception and doesn’t have access to it. I’m sorry, but that’s a reasonable risk.

As far as the general statutes in North Carolina, http://www.ncleg.net/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_115c/gs_115c-81.html search for “contraceptives”: “Contraceptives, including condoms and other devices, shall not be made available or distributed on school property.” So we have two statutes in direct contradiction of each other, and I think it would have to go to the courts. I suspect that if anyone in North Carolina has asked school nurses to handle birth control pills for their daughter, they’ve specified it as medication for heavy periods or irregularity. Which, again, you could argue that that’s a reasonable workaround, while I think it’s teaching your daughter that her reproductive life is not subject to a reasonable expectation of privacy unless she lies about it.

I do believe that reasonable oversight and review are more rational then, I don’t know, burning the school system to the ground and starting over or whatever radical reform is available on this thread. I just really do not believe schools in certain regions of this country have an appropriate organizational culture to react rationally to culturally divisive issues and ingrained prejudices, and I’m not sure what you do about that one.

Comment #52: purpleshoes  on  06/25  at  01:01 PM

“No offense, but it is true, given that it’s what we’re talking about.”

I *agree* that there are students who are unfairly punished. I *agree* that racism both conscious and unconscious is a real problem that needs to be addressed. I *agree* that systematically there is a need to monitor suspensions in schools and make sure that punishment is fair and fits behavior.

That said, the report had a lot of anecdotes, and statistical disparities. Yes, it might be that the disparity is 100% racism or that the disparity is 100% black kids misbehave but neither strikes me as likely and the statistics given don’t actually speak to the proportion of students who are being *unfairly* punished. To me that’s the number one thing that needs to get zeroed in on. We can assume that some are unfairly punished and some aren’t, and anything beyond that we are going to bring our own personal biases on because the data in the report isn’t specific enough to support either hypothesis.

With regards to short-term suspensions I absolutely believe that there’s a significant amount of racism. With regards to long-term zero-tolerance suspensions, I’m not as sure. With both more detailed data needs to be a key element of identifying what the problems are and finding solutions.

The way it is now, one side is saying “racism pure and simple” and the other side (which I don’t consider myself a part of) is saying “they simply have bad behavior”. That’s a distraction. Doing away with zero-tolerance isn’t going to solve anything if the real issue is that local administrators are being capricious and arbitrary in their decision-making without meaningful due process or oversight.

Comment #53: Leanmc  on  06/25  at  01:02 PM

Every single day in pretty much every single school in the USA students leave class to take medicine that is prescribed by their doctors. Students get hall passes from teachers, it is not a big deal.

It is a big deal, because the world does not match up with your fantasy.  Teachers make a big deal about giving out passes and letting students miss any part of their class.  Nurses make a big deal about administering them, because so many assume that all kids are lying about their illness.  Principals make a big deal when students are walking down the hallway, even if they have a hall pass.  Being slut-shamed by authority figures because you are taking responsibility for not getting pregnant is a big freaking deal.  Having your privacy rights violated because you’re just a teenager and don’t really count as a citizen is a big deal.  Getting in trouble because you are late for class or running in the hallway because you have to stop at the nurse’s office is a big deal.  Having to choose between being unable to concentrate all day because of pain or risk being strip-searched for having an OTC painkiller is a big deal.  Taking away people’s rights in the name of safety theater (meaning it’s not even effective at safety) is a huge deal.

Comment #54: bananacat  on  06/25  at  01:03 PM

Ditto seeker and Ms Kate on teachers unions—I did some work for one and can attest that they are a fundamentally neutral party at best, which makes them fertile soil for corruption. Part of the problem is that labor laws in the U.S. presume at every step of every process that the union can do no wrong vis-a-vis its membership. Weirdly enough, the only time unions are weak is when they are facing off against management. When they face off against their own members, unions are obscene. So members who play the game or have good connections end up with more effective union protection than those that do not. Behavior, good and bad, is irrelevant.

Comment #55: No One of Consequence  on  06/25  at  01:07 PM

The best piece of wisdom from the Supreme Court Opinion:

c) Because the suspected facts pointing to Savana did not indi-
cate that the drugs presented a danger to students or were concealed
in her underwear, Wilson did not have sufficient suspicion to warrant
extending the search to the point of making Savana pull out her un-
derwear. Romero and Schwallier said that they did not see anything
when Savana pulled out her underwear, but a strip search and its
Fourth Amendment consequences are not defined by who was looking
and how much was seen.

This needs to be applied to EVERY disciplinary policy - otherwise, you have a “guilty until proven innocent” situation and an attitude of “we can cavity search you all we want and it isn’t a big deal if you have nothing to hide”.

Comment #56: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  01:15 PM

I think the root of the problem begins in the primary grades, because little boys have a hard time sitting down quietly and paying attention. And black boys get dinged for their natural behavior more than white boys do. School thus becomes something unrewarding and painful; something to be shunned. The problem can be solved by modifying primary education to accommodate children’s natural behavior—Montessori-type education is one such solution.

Comment #57: Hector B.  on  06/25  at  01:30 PM

It may be like this in some industries, but not all of them, and certainly not at any of the places I have worked.

IIRC you’re an engineer, right? In that case, you’re, like me, part of a privileged minority of people who do work that hasn’t (yet) been completly deskilled by Taylorism. We had to learn to think for ourselves after going through the desert of the intellect that is high school and undergraduate studies, then been admitted into the small elite of people who did post-grad studies and were left to fend for themselves after years of learning naught but factory discipline at school. Most people never get that far into the system to get this much intellectual freedom.

Even then, I’m in software engineering, and I would say that the march of automation is rapidly proletarizing the field. I give it a decade or two before we’re all just extensions of the machine, like so much assembly line workers.

Comment #58: BlackBloc  on  06/25  at  01:33 PM

Students get hall passes from teachers, it is not a big deal. Its not rocket science. Its routine. You typically don’t have to pass checkpoints and gatekeepers and explain in detail precisely why you have to go to the office.

Hall passes were a pretty big deal 25 years ago when I was in high school and, yes, any passing adult could quiz you about why you weren’t in class even if you had a hall pass.  There was an adult hall monitor who sat in the front lobby near the offices who would quiz you if you had to go past him.  I find it hard to believe that schools have become more permissive about hall passes in the past 25 years than my very quiet, mostly-white, suburban high school was.

(Trivia:  not only did Tom Morello from Rage Against the Machine go to my high school, my brother took home ec classes from his mom, who was a teacher there.)

Comment #59: Mnemosyne  on  06/25  at  01:42 PM

Leahmn—as a migraine sufferer whose illness runs in the family, I can tell you with great certainty that it is simply impossible to get a school to reliably stock and provide medication to students.  In addition, the whole presumption of no privacy is stupid; if the school wanted students to carry around a laminated copy of the doc’s signature attached to the pill bottle, that’d be reasonable.  But expecting the nurse’s office to act as a dispensary for a thousand kids is beyond moronic.

Comment #60: Punditus Maximus  on  06/25  at  01:43 PM

Which is why Obama’s pals are firing them en mass. Oops.

The typical public school teacher is a lifer who started in the district at age 22, and plans to retire at 65. Now some teachers can sustain their enthusiasm and put in the effort for all 43 of those years, but many experienced teachers are burnt out and simply go through the motions. These teachers should be removed and replaced with people who try to earn their pay.

Comment #61: Hector B.  on  06/25  at  01:53 PM

If a student has a prescription for a drug, they can simply have it locked up in the main office for when they need it.

Yeah, putting onerous, humiliating obstacles in between a student and a prescribed medication isn’t a stupid idea at all.  That’s not going to cause any distress, any missing pills, or any fights with teachers who decide to inject their own judgment into the situation.

Or you could let kids have their damn pills.  There was no zero tolerance when I was in high school, and we successfully managed to get out, all of us, without maiming ourselves on a birth control pill.

Comment #62: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/25  at  02:03 PM

I mean, it’s amazing how many people think it’s appropriate to subject teenagers to the same levels of responsibility and supervision that is appropriate for 5-year-olds, and then we just turn them out into the real world and expect them to be adults.  With no practice, no training wheels.

Comment #63: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/25  at  02:04 PM

“I think it’s teaching your daughter that her ...life is not subject to a reasonable expectation of privacy unless she lies about it.”

At least the Right is applying the same standard of privacy to teenage girls that they did to the 42nd president.

Comment #64: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  02:08 PM

Hector B. talks out of his ass:

The typical public school teacher is a lifer. . .These teachers should be removed and replaced with people who try to earn their pay.

Many of the people being fired are young teachers. Many of the people being fired are experienced teachers under the age of 35. Their replacements are people with no teaching experience.

The entire point of the article is that the firings are occuring without regard to the actual experience, qualifications, history, age, or skill of the teachers involved. Hence the term “mass” firing. They’re being fired for the sake of political and economic gain for a few politicians and a small set of corporations.

Perhaps Hector’s teachers should have spent some time instructing him on reeading comprehension. One would hope that, not understanding the term “mass,” the natural inclnation would be to look it up. Oh, the tragedy of our educational system.

Comment #65: No One of Consequence  on  06/25  at  02:16 PM

There was no zero tolerance when I was in high school, and we successfully managed to get out, all of us…

Yeah, weird that.  I went to a catholic high school near Toronto which put profound emphasis on treating kids like adults so far as was possible (see below), and the result was anarchy.  I quick look through facebook shows us what slimy, anarchistic (sorry Blackbloc) criminals the lot of us turned out to be: doctors, researchers, housewives, small-business people, artists, award-winning documentarians, multimedia innovators, high-tech inventors, corporate attorneys…  menacing hoodlums, every one.

I mean, it’s amazing how many people think it’s appropriate to subject teenagers to the same levels of responsibility and supervision that is appropriate for 5-year-olds, and then we just turn them out into the real world and expect them to be adults….

That’s the biggest flaw of High Schools in general, and I’ve kvetched about it before: you cannot produce a rational result from rational teenager if you demand that they Act Like Adults! while treating them like children.  Can’t.  Be.  Done.

Comment #66: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  02:16 PM

but many experienced teachers are burnt out and simply go through the motions

Professor Avenger had a 37 year career as a community college teacher, and Mother Avenger used to observe that like cops and firefighters, teachers should be able to get an early pension because of the burnout factor.

Comment #67: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/25  at  02:24 PM

(Shrugs.) 

Dark Avenger, many of us have equally intensive career demands and we don’t have two+ months off from our clients in the summer nor do we have unions to protect us no matter how badly we fuck up.

Teaching is an incredibly challenging profession.  It is also possessed of many sweet spots that other professionals would drown kittens to get.  I think what vexes some people and prevents them from having a rational as opposed to emotional response to teacher complaints is that teachers only wanna talk about column A and never about column B.

Comment #68: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  02:28 PM

That is, one’s quality of care is poorest when one is a minority being treated by a white doctor…

No one of consequence - do you have a link for this?

Comment #69: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/25  at  02:28 PM

Yeah, West Texas is behind all trends, including the one of treating teenagers like small children.  I mean, we had all the evils like pep rallies and dress codes, but they didn’t think that we were too stupid to know how to swallow an aspirin without supervision.  Then again, that was the 90s, and we were still the latch key generation, not the everyone-gets-a-trophy generation.

Comment #70: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/25  at  02:31 PM

Re: having pills. 

I was a “good kid”.  AP classes, no disciplinary record, nice white middle class family.  I also got horrible migraines when I was in high school.

If I took some Tylenol with codeine when I started getting my “halos” (my fingers would tingle, I’d start seeing auras, people’s voices would sound like they were coming through a radio) I could bypass the whole migraine (the hot-razor in my eyeball pain, the sensitivity to light, the sensitivity to sound, the nausea) and just have a headache.  So, my family did the responsible thing (initially) and told the school administrator (nurses?  You have to be kidding me.  Who has nurses anymore?) to let me have the Tylenol when I started getting my symptoms.

Lo and behold, I tell my teacher that I have these symptoms, and he thinks I’m either on drugs, or making it up, and won’t let me go.  My 10 minute window passes, and I’m in pain. So now, I have to wait in the office (with the clacking of the keyboard, and the copy machine whir which sounds like gunfire to my sensitivity, plus the NM dessert sunlight streaming through the cracks in the window) while my parents take off work to come get me. 

So, after that, we do the irresponsible thing- I keep the pills in a plastic baggie and hide it in the deepest pocket of my backpack.  If I start feeling a headache that’s too bad, I skip school and drive home. 

Luckily, the “good kid” thing prevents me from EVER having my backpack searched, or ever having anyone stop me when I go to the car.

But, their “mistake” the first time led me to have a 24-hour-pain filled time.  So excuse me if I’m all for bypassing that authority.

Comment #71: Antigone  on  06/25  at  02:31 PM

This carries over into perceptions of the entire school body at large.

Where I grew up, there was only one public high school and one public middle school in the whole county (a rural county) that was 40 percent black, 60 percent white (there were literally no other races there).

The public schools were decent institutions, probably not as good as wealthier suburban schools but a decent, working and lower middle class public school.

But despite this, the local Segregation “Academies” were seen as “better”. Even though their test scores were the same! Even though their class sizes weren’t much smaller! Why? Because they were 95 percent plus white.

Comment #72: Ben D.  on  06/25  at  02:36 PM

Antigone, I had a similar go around with something that is not even a drug!  It is called “lactase”, and there are multiple case reports of kids eating entire bottles of it and not even getting a tummyache.

My kids are lactose intolerant - says so on all their forms.  The FDA doesn’t even call lactase a drug, and I pointed all these scary, scientific and medical things out to them.  Yet there was still a demand of “proof” and a “doctor’s note” - schools seem to think all a doctor exists for is to generate doctor’s notes.

SO ... I put it in their packs and told them to take it to the bathroom if they had a surprise ice cream party of something.  The stupid burns.

Comment #73: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  02:43 PM

Uhura:

Offhand, no. The study was done in, iirc 2002. It was before the CA gubenatorial recall, definately. Here was an early hit on google, though:

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN1226090820070612

I could probably find the original study’s info, but I’m very lazy (and should be doing something mildly useful) at the moment.

Comment #74: No One of Consequence  on  06/25  at  02:43 PM

I only scanned the thread quickly so I apologize if somebody already made this point, but (and I know this isn’t remotely news to Jesse): it’s important to understand that this phenomenon extends far beyond school; young black kids, males especially, are exposed to a degree of police surveillance (and arrest for stepping even a centimeter out of line) way, way beyond what their white counterparts ever experience. So that, for example, black people are far more likely to be arrested for drug crimes than whites even thought there isn’t a shred of evidence that drug use among whites is actually any lower.

This country still has a very long way to go to achieve sanity about race. And of course we have tons of conservative racists, like our trolls around here, doing what they can to make that road even slower.

Comment #75: Steve LaBonne  on  06/25  at  02:48 PM

Seeker, unless you’re a pediatrician, you do not have the same demands as a schoolteacher.  When peoples’ kids are involved, all rationality goes out the window.  Teachers aren’t expected to do a good job only by some rational standard - they’re expected to do a good job by the standard of every single parent of every single child, and those standards are often arbitrary and conflicting (even in some cases between the parents of just one child).  That’s impossible, but it’s the expectation because, well, THE CHILDREN!!!!!  We’ve got such fucked up notions about childhood and parenting, and teachers are subject to all of that.

Comment #76: libdevil  on  06/25  at  02:52 PM

it’s important to understand that this phenomenon extends far beyond school; young black kids, males especially, are exposed to a degree of police surveillance

You’re absolutely right, and I did touch on this already.  Black people and even other racial minorities are more likely to be followed around in a store.  Of course, we shouldn’t be surprised that they catch more shoplifters among the group that they monitor more closely, but a lot of people will use this as evidence to pretend that minorities really do shoplift more.

Comment #77: bananacat  on  06/25  at  02:56 PM

On an individual level I suspected very strongly that this is happening (the assumption of Black inferiority), but this report puts a scientific stamp on it. I experienced it in high school myself from a few of the teachers…this underlying assumption that I was smart (since I was *there) but “not that smart” since I am Black. I also experienced it in college & sometimes at work.

*I went to Stuyvesant HS in NYC where Pam went.

No doubt about that. 

I had a taste of this by being a McCain-level student and for being a working-class kid who had no problems openly mocking teachers with authoritarian tendencies.  I was protected somewhat by the fact I am Asian-American which meant I didn’t have to put up with a greater layer of BS that Black classmates had to put up with at our high school. 

As for college, I had one working-class Blasian high school classmate whom a college calc prof at one Ivy institution failed because it was found he had an animus against engineering majors….and in retrospect, some racist animus as that Prof gave him an F despite clear evidence he averaged -A/B+ level grades for all problem sets and exams.  Took 2 years to get the grade changed even with the full backing of the Engineering and Arts & Sciences deans and clear documentation that the failing grade was unwarranted.  Unfortunately, because that asshole Prof was already planning to retire after decades of Profing and had many powerful friends…nothing was ever done to punish him.  :(

It seems like many middle school and High school teachers really don’t like it when kids exceed their expectations, it seems to threaten their world view and perhaps implys that some teachers are not real good at bringing out the best in their students.

A large part of this is because so many of those teachers weren’t very good students themselves in high school and/or college. 

With the exception of the altruistic oriented, the vast majority of undergrads who tend to go into K-12 teaching tend to graduate toward the bottom of their undergrad classes.  When several Ivy/Ivy-level grad schools of education not only admitted, but also provided substantial scholarships to socio-economically privileged White students with 2.7 GPAs and is a common phenomenon from what I heard from several friends who went into teaching, this is one serious sign that the best undergrad students tend to avoid this profession in droves. 

Working conditions, low pay compared to other professions requiring Masters degrees, being surrounded by colleagues who may not be as intellectually engaged, and having to deal with the widespread disrespect/disdain of not only parents and the larger society, but educational bureaucrats and government officials are all important factors in causing this. 

Add to this the fact many of the academic achievers in high school and college IME recounted how their teachers resented them for greatly exceeding their academic requirements and used authoritarian bullying to maintain their overinflated sense of “superiority”.....and it is no wonder that the vast majority of my high school classmates and academic achievers in college refused to consider teaching as a career.  To them, having to spend 8+ hours/day with colleagues whose ego “writes checks their intellects can’t cash” results in a life that is the epitomization of hell on earth.

Comment #78: exholt  on  06/25  at  02:56 PM

Leanmc:

Yes, you *can* get a prescription for OTC painkillers. You *can* leave them with the nurse. If the nurse violates their professional ethics by giving you a hard time about taking your medicine, you can report them to their boards.

I’ve never really understood the need for leaving medication with the nurse. Why on earth can’t kids be trusted to take their own medicine? I mean, why would you want to take ibuprofen if you’re not in pain? What could you possibly gain from that? What do the schools think the students are going to do with their birth control pills, if they are allowed to have them in class - get high on estrogen? I can understand such policy with really small children (let’s say, up to the age of ten or twelve) or with drugs which can be abused, but this is just very strange to me. If the school doesn’t trust older kids to look after themselves even in these harmless situations, how can the teachers expect them to build any responsibility at all?

The fact is, we don’t even have school nurses in my country, and I don’t remember a single instance where this caused problems. When there was a medical emergency, ambulance was called. When a kid was sick, s/he lied down on a couch in the teachers’ room, perhaps got some basic medication like aspirin or medicinal charcoal, and parents were called. Nobody was stressed about medication in the hands of older kids, and yet we didn’t poison ourselves. In high school (fifteen and older), when a student got a headache or felt ill and wanted to go home, s/he was allowed to go home on his/her own, provided the parents agreed. When this happened (quite rare), a classmate accompanied the student to look after him/her on the way home, but I don’t remember the system being abused in any substantial way.

Another thing i don’t understand is the restricted movement in school. Why would you need a hall pass? Is it to prevent bullying?

Comment #79: Majoranka  on  06/25  at  03:06 PM

Teaching is an incredibly challenging profession.  It is also possessed of many sweet spots that other professionals would drown kittens to get.  I think what vexes some people and prevents them from having a rational as opposed to emotional response to teacher complaints is that teachers only wanna talk about column A and never about column B.

And yet we don’t see people running in droves to become teachers.  My guess is this:

Working conditions, low pay compared to other professions requiring Masters degrees, being surrounded by colleagues who may not be as intellectually engaged, and having to deal with the widespread disrespect/disdain of not only parents and the larger society, but educational bureaucrats and government officials are all important factors in causing this.

...has something to do with it, at least in part.

Comment #80: Linnaeus  on  06/25  at  03:07 PM

The entire point of the article is that the firings are occuring without regard to the actual experience, qualifications, history, age, or skill of the teachers involved. Hence the term “mass” firing. They’re being fired for the sake of political and economic gain for a few politicians and a small set of corporations.

Well of course. After all, 93% of CPS teachers are rated “Excellent” or “Superior,” so this “mass firing” could have nothing to do with clearing out the deadwood.

http://tntp.org/files/TNTPAnalysis-Chicago.pdf Page 44.

Comment #81: Hector B.  on  06/25  at  03:08 PM

Another indication that not enough CPS teachers are being fired:

http://cbs2chicago.com/investigations/Painful.Lessons.Abuse.2.931134.html

An exclusive CBS 2 investigation discovered Treveon Martin is one of at least 818 Chicago Public School students, since 2003, to allege being battered by a teacher or an aide, coach, security guard, or even a principal. In most of those cases - 568 of them - Chicago Public School investigators determined the children were telling the truth. ...

The 2 Investigators found reports of students beaten with broomsticks, whipped with belts, yard sticks, struck with staplers, choked, stomped on and pushed down stairs. One substitute teacher even fractured a student’s neck.

But even more alarming, in the vast majority of cases, teachers found guilty were only given a slap on the wrist. ...  Of the 568 verified cases, only 24 led to termination. Records show one teacher who quote “battered students for several years” was simply given a “warning” by the Board of Education.

And another student was given “100 licks with a belt.” The abuse was substantiated, but the records show the teacher was not terminated.

Comment #82: Hector B.  on  06/25  at  03:25 PM

What exholt said regarding work conditions, and what Lineaeus linked from exholt to my post.  Well thought out.

I think that the “where” makes a huge difference in teaching satisfaction.  I have relatives and close friends who went into teaching here in Ontario.  They are well-paid, have fantastic benefits, great retirement plans (the Ontario Teachers plan, for example, is so damned rich that it is one of the owners of the Toronto Maple Leafs, one of the most valuable franchises in sports), they love their work and decades later to it still find it invigorating and pleasurable.  (One relative just had her two daughters follow her into the field.)  Their experiences seem to be GREATLY at odds with the American ones under discussion here.

Comment #83: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  03:28 PM

Hector B:

Such a rate of violence leaves one with a natural question:  Are they using CPD officers as teachers?

Comment #84: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  03:30 PM

. . . And they fired all teachers at “failing” schools, good and bad. In fact, by taking advantage of their own bad policies when it came to firing teachers, school officials could sweep out good teachers by pinning the entire endeavour on the bad ones. Complete fucking fail, Hector.

Comment #85: No One of Consequence  on  06/25  at  03:31 PM

I think so too, seeker.  While I can’t say anything definitive about teacher satisfaction in the school district in which I grew up, I can say that as a student I received a solid education, had few problems with my teachers, and my academic achievements were encouraged at every point in my primary and secondary education.  I loved going to school and used to feel a bit down when I had to go home (though I of course had my share of bad days).  I don’t know if that was because of good teacher satisfaction, but I’m inclined to think that that was a factor.

Comment #86: Linnaeus  on  06/25  at  03:34 PM

. . . And they fired all teachers at “failing” schools, good and bad. In fact, by taking advantage of their own bad policies when it came to firing teachers, school officials could sweep out good teachers by pinning the entire endeavour on the bad ones.

This is one reason why I’m sometimes skeptical of the enthusiasm for firing “bad” teachers; it seems to be rooted less in an effort to ensure good teaching and more in an effort to assert greater control.

Comment #87: Linnaeus  on  06/25  at  03:42 PM

The control thing is key, Linnaeus.  Don’t forget, in almost every organization, public or private, lean or fat, it’s the dead wood who decides who is “dead wood” and, needless to say, they never axe themselves.

Comment #88: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  03:44 PM

Seeker, I volunteered at a low income school on the south side of Chicago when I was in college.  I would have been surprised if the majority of the teachers WEREN’T burned out and discouraged—it’s really depressing tutoring 6th grade students who can’t even read at a 1st grade level.

Comment #89: FashionablyEvil  on  06/25  at  03:45 PM

Not to say that it can’t be rewarding, just that it’s an uphill battle.

Comment #90: FashionablyEvil  on  06/25  at  03:50 PM

The control thing is key, Linnaeus.  Don’t forget, in almost every organization, public or private, lean or fat, it’s the dead wood who decides who is “dead wood” and, needless to say, they never axe themselves.

Especially when they tend to gravitate toward being the Educational bureaucrats and leaders who make those determinations…..and from what I heard from friends who spent time teaching K-12….they tended to be THE bottom of the barrel in terms of undergrad studies, Ed school, and teaching…...

Comment #91: exholt  on  06/25  at  03:50 PM

exholt, it wouldn’t surprise me a bit.  Talentless control freaks tend to gravitate towards positions where they can jerk around people with talent.  Much of the entertainment industry is built on this very premise.

Comment #92: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  03:52 PM

It’s not limited to education or entertainment, either.  One of the reasons that my mother was comfortable with retiring from nursing was that every year there seemed to be fewer doctors and nurses and more and more administrators telling the health providers what to do and how many forms that they had to fill in to do it.

Comment #93: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  03:55 PM

Yeah, weird that.  I went to a catholic high school near Toronto which put profound emphasis on treating kids like adults so far as was possible (see below), and the result was anarchy.  I quick look through facebook shows us what slimy, anarchistic (sorry Blackbloc) criminals the lot of us turned out to be: doctors, researchers, housewives, small-business people, artists, award-winning documentarians, multimedia innovators, high-tech inventors, corporate attorneys… menacing hoodlums, every one.

In other words, professions that (per BlackBloc) haven’t “(yet) been completely deskilled by Taylorism.” When a conscious decision is made by a school administration to treat teenagers like adults so far as was possible, its alumni are better positioned to enter into this privileged (and well-compensated) minority without years of unnecessary struggle and misery against the system. Getting through undergrad, for example, is much easier when you’ve already been taught to take responsibility for your own course of study.

My school experience was similar to yours, with similar alumni outcomes. The school reversed the typical American public school priorities, which seem to place academic rigour a distant second behind behavioural conformism. The primary messages my middle/high school delivered were “choose your own path,” “think critically,” “be creative,” and “question authority”—concepts that are anathema to the vast majority of American public school administrators.

An important disclaimer: my school, like most private schools, enjoyed the advantage of small class sizes and admissions selectivity, excluding a lot of the extremely disruptive student behaviour that I hear about from friends who teach in the public system. But, that said, the school made an effort (through recruiting and scholarship programmes) to ensuring a diverse student body, and minority students were not particularly singled out as “bad kids.” Also there was a whole lot of drugs and sex and (New Wave, Rockabilly and Punk) rock-n-roll going on off- and (to a lesser degree) on-campus.

Comment #94: Gracchus.  on  06/25  at  03:56 PM

Don’t forget, in almost every organization, public or private, lean or fat, it’s the dead wood who decides who is “dead wood” and, needless to say, they never axe themselves.

In any given round of corporate layoffs, chances are extremely high that the HR department will escape unscathed and whole. The same goes for the organisation’s cadre of MBAs. Putting it kindly, this situation is not mere co-incidence.

Comment #95: Gracchus.  on  06/25  at  03:59 PM

Dark Avenger, many of us have equally intensive career demands and we don’t have two+ months off from our clients in the summer nor do we have unions to protect us no matter how badly we fuck up.

I really don’t understand this mentality. If you don’t have a union to protect your interests, *newsflash*! you can start one. It seems to me to be the height of whinyness to complain about all the unionized people getting their due for labor struggles when you’re not willing to get off your ass and organize yourself for your own benefit.

I’ve been arguing for a few years now with colleagues that IT workers and software engineers should stop being idiots and get unionized, instead of thinking of themselves as being on the same side as white collar management. But you know how it is, it’s all gLibertarians who will pontificate endlessly about rational self-interest but that get the vapors as soon as you tell them that true rational self-interest would be to stop coming in to work for no additional pay during code rushes to hit milestones, to organize together to get better work conditions and salaries, and to stop thinking that the managers who are screwing you by telling you you need to come in and finish a project on the weekend instead of going to your son’s game is on your side and that if you suffer through enough of this you’ll get to be a well paid manager yourself.

Comment #96: BlackBloc  on  06/25  at  04:11 PM

It’s difficult to unionize lawyers, too, but there are some promising developments.  Ontario’s criminal lawyers are finally refusing to take legal aid certificates for pay rates which haven’t gone up in 20 years, for example.  Because, you know, making sure that an accused person has decent counsel isn’t something that Decent People put up with.

Comment #97: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  04:17 PM

from the perspective of black students, being more likely to be treated in a capricious and heavy-handed manner by authority figures makes you less likely to respect those authority figures. ~ This is logical, common sense..right? Well, it is for me anyway.

When I had a run-in with the school district because I wanted to transfer my son out of one school and into another, I had to use the ‘media’ card..meaning when the board told me no, I told them I would be contacting all my friends in the media..tv, newspaper, etc.

That was the only thing that worked.

Comment #98: Dusty  on  06/25  at  04:22 PM

Are they using CPD officers as teachers?

Actually, according to a friend’s mother, who used to work in the office at Harper High (a tough school in a tough neighborhood) CPD officers were their favorite substitute teachers, because none of the students would fuck with them.

And they fired all teachers at “failing” schools, good and bad.

Were these teachers not given ten months in which to find another position within the CPS? According to the New Teacher Project report I cited, 84% of reassigned teachers find new jobs.

Comment #99: Hector B.  on  06/25  at  04:24 PM

I’ve been arguing for a few years now with colleagues that IT workers and software engineers should stop being idiots and get unionized, instead of thinking of themselves as being on the same side as white collar management.

It’s not only Libertarians—it’s the fact that many of the coders are young and inexperienced with all the ways corporate life can subtly screw you (another result of the public school system, where the screw-overs were explicit). It’s created a culture in IT where at least two generations’ worth of highly paid managers who are completely unfamiliar with the name Fred Brooks, and where permanent crunch time and 80-hour work weeks (at 40-hour fixed salaries) are regarded as par for the course instead of indicators of gross incompetence.

That situation, as much as automation, has contributed to the proletarisation of non-management coders. In some ways, your assessment of one or two decades is highly optimistic.

Comment #100: Gracchus.  on  06/25  at  04:27 PM

According to the New Teacher Project report I cited, 84% of reassigned teachers find new jobs.

Wow, way to miss the point completely.

a) The teachers and staff were not reassigned, they were fired.
b) If the teacher finds a new job, on his or her own, what of it? Can a manager fire an employee just for being black and then point out to the court that the employee found a new job so no harm was done?

So the original point remains. This is another example of disaster capitalism. Deliberate or neglectful governance that serves as an excuse for personal profit. The fact that it’s racist just makes it easier to pull off.

Comment #101: No One of Consequence  on  06/25  at  04:41 PM

Just as an odd comment, I was a student at the high school that suspended a boy for having a bread knife in his truck - Lawrence D. Bell High School in Hurst, Texas.  It was my senior year of high school, and the guy was a good kid, and no tolerance is incredibly fucking stupid.  My high school’s a laughingstock nationwide, and rightfully.

Comment #102: INTPagan  on  06/25  at  04:41 PM

Dark Avenger, many of us have equally intensive career demands and we don’t have two+ months off from our clients in the summer nor do we have unions to protect us no matter how badly we fuck up.

FWIW, Professor Avenger taught night classes and summer school, and his activity in the local teachers union was negotiating the contracts with the school management, not covering the butts of any incompetent fellow teachers.

It is notable that the union hasn’t gotten a good raise since his retirement, a coincidence I’m sure.

As a matter of fact, the only time they did have an incompetent teacher, the district handled it by giving the teacher a golden handshake retirement, afterwards he tried to get work wit a part time basis with the district on he found out about the handshake part.

Any other cliches you’d care to trot out today?

<u>Because, you know, making sure that an accused person has decent counsel isn’t something that Decent People put up with.</u>

So, refusing to work for next to nothing is objectionable because why?

Would you work if I offered you a contract based on wage rates for your position that are 20 years old?

Or is that something Decent People put up with these days?

Comment #103: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/25  at  04:42 PM

You typically don’t have to pass checkpoints and gatekeepers and explain in detail precisely why you have to go to the office.

My school had checkpoints and police patrols, actually. I don’t think it’s that rare.

Comment #104: Matty  on  06/25  at  04:48 PM

So, Dark Avenger, you really think that an elementary school teacher who bashes a kid’s head into a desk (for any reason!) should be retained? 

BTW, the teacher’s union in our local district, that my husband briefly worked for, set up contracts such that teachers who didn’t know shit about computers ended up teaching computer classes by handing out photocopied worksheets for kids to fill out because they didn’t know shit about computers ... but they had tenure!

Comment #105: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  05:17 PM

How do I portect my son?

Comment #106: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/25  at  05:17 PM

Oops - I meant protect

Comment #107: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/25  at  05:18 PM

It’s not only Libertarians—it’s the fact that many of the coders are young and inexperienced with all the ways corporate life can subtly screw you (another result of the public school system, where the screw-overs were explicit).

Aren’t all young coders Libertarians (until they learn better)? smile I stand by my point.

In some ways, your assessment of one or two decades is highly optimistic.

To be fair:
a) I’ve been in this field almost a decade now and have parroted the ‘one or two decades’ number for all this time, so we might already be starting to see the effects I warned about back then.

b) From the small amount of IT I’ve done, it seems to be even farther along the path than us code jockeys working to produce software for sale as a product (or, increasingly, as a service), who can at least pretend to some amount of creativity and problem solving in our work still and are a bit farther from the days of being replaced by a machine or someone fresh out of a technical school in India. Not that India doesn’t have great coders and highly educated computer scientists, but the point of outsourcing is not to outsource these jobs to them… they can always hire the highly skilled workers to come work in America if they really need these unique skillsets. The point is to drive down the costs of the middle and lower tiers, by hiring lower and middle tier workers over there instead of here (where there’s less history of fussyness over such things as ‘labor rights’). Taylorism is about making a job less and less dependant on a particular worker’s skillset and to thus make work (and workers) a fungible quantity so that any worker can replace any other. It’s about commodifying workers. If you need to hire Joe Coder because he has a relatively unique skillset, it’s going to cost you more than if you’re able to redraw the job so that any coder from any place on the planet is able to do it. The best example is projectionists. Most of the move to digital movies was pushed by an incentive to deskill the job of projectionist so that now any teenager on a summer job can do it, instead of needing to get someone that has some rather technical skills in A/V.

c) My older colleagues that don’t have their heads up their ass think we’ve already been there for a while, so my guess is that it’s been progressing this way for decades already and that the point where we’ll have attained proletarization is probably a subjective determination of where you draw the line on a continuum rather than a binary thing

Comment #108: BlackBloc  on  06/25  at  05:20 PM

My high school had an automatic expulsion for fighting rule that was unevenly applied in just this way.  White students would bully, bait, and start fights with Black students in order to get them expelled.

There was a certain cachet of hopelessness for all the students not on the AP track.  In order to get into the AP classes, you had to pay $75 per placement test.  It’s no surprise that the same clique of students shared classes, club memberships, and dominated the music department.  These rich kids, almost all white, could do no wrong.  Pretty much everyone who wasn’t an AP kid became a “disciplinary problem” of one sort or another, mostly because when the school has blatantly given up on you, you can’t quell your resentment.

I saw it often, as I struggled to get through each class, that when white students disrupted they were treated as high spirited, good kids who lacked focus.  Meanwhile, when black students disrupted class, they were banished to sit in the hallway until the class finished.  If you think it’s not much of a punishment, they missed class, they weren’t allowed to catch up, and they were still tested on material they didn’t get.  This was usually a punishment for arguing with a teacher’s views, something we were all bound to get up to because we were bored, pissed off, and generally smarter than we were being given credit for.

I did get to take one AP class, AP physics was added before they got a test in place for it, and I got to fill one of the open slots.  In this class, even the least engaged students were treated with deference, nobody ever got sent out of the room, and even questions asked in bad faith were answered honestly.  And since we were all being treated as if we could actually learn and contribute, we all behaved a lot better.

I shudder to think what the school has become now.  I hear that they finally built a second high school in the area, so I can imagine how the new school populations are split.  My old school is probably “the Black school” because it had the largest vo-tech program.  I’m sure the AP test fee has doubled since my time, and even fewer kids are being given a chance to be educated.

Comment #109: Godless Heathen  on  06/25  at  05:21 PM

By ‘best example’, I meant outside of IT. I was trying to draw a parallel between our field and a field that has already been ‘Taylorized’ out of existence in the past decade.

Comment #110: BlackBloc  on  06/25  at  05:22 PM

Uhura, find a multicultural area if you can, a place with black, white, hispanic, asian, and mixed families in non-trivial numbers.  From what I’ve seen, it makes it very hard to lump certain kids into certain categories when there is a big mix of folk in both the community and in the staff of the schools.  It also makes it harder to get an us vs them thing going when Us and Them are very difficult for the kids to define.  Talk to people about your concerns, particularly people like yourself who have children in the schools.

It won’t end all racist bullshit, but it makes it less likely from what I’ve seen.

Comment #111: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  05:27 PM

Point, Ms Kate, and, for that purpose, I would advise Sacramento.  The one high school I went to in the area was far more mixed than anywhere I’ve been in Texas.  (Just as another random thing.)

Comment #112: INTPagan  on  06/25  at  05:28 PM

Wow, way to miss the point completely.

a) The teachers and staff were not reassigned, they were fired.
b) If the teacher finds a new job, on his or her own, what of it?

You’re not fired if you’re still drawing a paycheck—that’s my basic rule.  Teachers can devote thirty days to finding a new job within CPS, and they have ten school months to find a new job while subbing.  For pete’s sake, there are 666 (ominous!) schools in CPS, employing almost 24,000 teachers. And 84% of teachers designated for reassignment do find a new job within CPS. I have to conclude that there’s something odd about those who do not.

Section 4 - List of Vacancies

Upon notice to the tenured teacher of removal, the Department of Human Resources will immediately
provide the tenured teacher with a list of all unencumbered vacant positions for which he or she is
qualified. The Department of Human Resources will also provide each tenured teacher who makes a
written request to the Department of Human Resources with a copy of the list of vacancies in any area
identified by the Department of Human Resources to be an area of systemic critical need.

Section 5 - Opportunity to Interview

During the first thirty school days after notice of removal, the tenured teacher will be permitted to interview at schools of his/her choosing without being assigned any additional duties. The Board will make available to affected tenured teachers lists of vacancies, job counseling and assistance with resume writing and interviewing skills.

But if you believe that 93% of CPS teachers deserve their ratings of “Superior” and “Excellent.” this will not persuade you.

Comment #113: Hector B.  on  06/25  at  05:33 PM

Yes, you *can* get a prescription for OTC painkillers.

Sure you can. If you’re among the privileged minority in this country who have health insurance liberal enough to allow you to go to the doctor for a prescription every time you think your kid might need an ibuprofen, an Immodium, a Benadryl, a decongestant or a cough suppressant, or an itch cream. Oh, and a job and transportation flexible enough to allow for taking your kid to the doctor to get all those prescriptions.

Comment #114: kristin  on  06/25  at  05:35 PM

BTW, the teacher’s union in our local district, that my husband briefly worked for, set up contracts such that teachers who didn’t know shit about computers ended up teaching computer classes by handing out photocopied worksheets for kids to fill out because they didn’t know shit about computers ... but they had tenure!

Ms. Kate,

A serious problem that is not only limited to K-12, but also to many colleges and universities…including my undergrad. 

Had several older undergrad classmates who warned me off taking CS classes with one instructor because as a tenured Prof, he was placed in the CS department after a department related far more to English lit that he was in was eliminated in the 1980s.

Comment #115: exholt  on  06/25  at  05:45 PM

The same school system that refuses to accelerate kids later unless parents raise hell,

This is system wide—schools no longer let kids skip grades as much as they used to. I think the concept is that while many kids might have widely different abilities starting out, they tend to converge over time, and they feel it’s better to simply cater to those kids within their own grade rather than skipping them. It’s sort of the reverse version of social promotion. Not saying this is necessarily a great idea, but that’s the reasoning.

“I skipped a grade” used to be a typical refrain of a bright child. Now you only see those 16-year-old college students in very rare cases.

Comment #116: Tyro  on  06/25  at  05:49 PM

“I think there are a couple of things at work, the first being that assumption by many teachers that black students and black males in particular are more aggressive and therefore more likely to transgress initially.  The second is that, from the perspective of black students, being more likely to be treated in a capricious and heavy-handed manner by authority figures makes you less likely to respect those authority figures.”

This is an interesting assertion and I would like to address it if I may. I don’t necessarily disagree with you but I think for many situations you have the whole thing backwards. As a teacher I have found that students are less likely to respect authority figures because they feel that they are being dealt with unfairly but that the reasons for them feeling like they are being treated unfairly are terribly skewed. I have had students in the past who feel they are “owed” some type of extra respect. I don’t know why they feel they are “owed” this but their sense of ownership makes them feel entitled to equal footing with the teacher, which is complete bullshit. This skewed sense of respect is often coupled with the view that the world is out to get them. I find that it is often not the teacher who is refusing to give the student a chance but the student who refuses to give that chance to the teacher. I have had students who automatically assume that the reason they are getting in trouble is not because they yelled “this is fucking stupid” in my class but because they’re black. I don’t doubt that what you say is occuring in school districts and it should certainly be put to a halt as soon as possible. However, it is also important to realize that teachers are often getting the shit end of the stick when the parents and their student blame their childs behavior on race and not on the fact that they are a crappy parent and their kids an asshole.

Comment #117: Ryan  on  06/25  at  05:56 PM

Yep Kristin - Doctors exist to write notes for school administrators and nurses, doncha know!  The State of MA had to offically tell schools to NOT demand doctors notes during this end-of-year epidemic because it was wasting too much time for the doctors who had their hands full already!

Comment #118: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  05:56 PM

Why should a doctor have to write a note justifying a student taking an over-the-counter medication?  Isn’t that why it’s over the godsdamned counter?  How stupid.  Parental statement should be more than sufficient, or do they just not trust parents to know their childrens’ needs?  I mean, what, do we have an epidemic of kids getting high on Advil?  Fuck, this is idiotic.

Comment #119: INTPagan  on  06/25  at  05:58 PM

And for those “how can you tell what pill it is” people, well, it is VERY EASY.  Pills come in specific shapes and colors, with codes on them.

For those which may be abused - like Oxycontin and Ritalin - it is real super easy because of the branding.  All they have to do is have a nice poster.  Doesn’t match the poster?  It ain’t a problem.

Comment #120: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  06:01 PM

But you know, INTPagan, many school administrators will tell you how kids are getting all the pills out of their medicine cabinets, mixing them in bowls, and taking handfuls to swallow!  They, like read this somewhere, so the kids around them just HAVETA be doing it!

Not that there is any documented source for these stories ... we just know they are true!

Comment #121: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  06:03 PM

This is one reason why I’m sometimes skeptical of the enthusiasm for firing “bad” teachers; it seems to be rooted less in an effort to ensure good teaching and more in an effort to assert greater control.

Linnaeus,

Another factor in the enthusiasm is the perception shaped by instances of exceedingly bad teachers who were retained and continued to teach at a given school despite his/her abusive behaviors and/or refusal to fulfill their responsibilities to teach their students. 

There were a fair number of such deadwood teachers in my junior high and high school who at best, spent the entire class through the whole semester just reading the newspaper while the rest of the class were left to their own devices….or worse…continued to be employed despite documented cases of denying disabled students services/accommodations they were entitled to under state educational laws.  And yes, I do speak from firsthand experience as a student who encountered both types of bad teachers.

Comment #122: exholt  on  06/25  at  06:04 PM

I have had students who automatically assume that the reason they are getting in trouble is not because they yelled “this is fucking stupid” in my class but because they’re black.

And if they have previously gotten in trouble for things the white kids do with impunity, then they might as well yell “this is fucking stupid” if yelling what the white kids yell has always gotten them the same as swearing does.

Comment #123: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  06:05 PM

Ms Kate, I bet it happens at the emergency contraception parties where they take the morning-after pill and have orgies, and then swallow bowlfuls of Advil and Zantac.

Comment #124: INTPagan  on  06/25  at  06:05 PM

Not that there is any documented source for these stories ... we just know they are true!

Sounds like a Rainbow Party. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_party_(sexuality)
We know it was real; it was on Oprah.

Comment #125: Hector B.  on  06/25  at  06:07 PM

Ms. Kate, I have had someone on another blog insist that girls are going to, for instance, empty out packs of birth control pills, fill them with drugs (what kind of drugs, ffs?) and somehow put the foil back on afterwards. This is a person who 1) has never seen most street drugs even in pictures 2) has no idea how easy it is to smuggle things into schools.

Comment #126: purpleshoes  on  06/25  at  06:07 PM

Priding myself on keeping up with the latest teen lingo, when I first heard the term “pharm party”, I thought it
likely meant an underage drinking party at someone’s farm, out in the middle of nowhere. How wrong I was.
“Pharm,” as it turns out, is short for pharmaceuticals, such as the powerful painkillers Vicodin and OxyContin.
It seems that one of the latest trends is for teens and young adults to organize parties in order to consume
random fistfuls of prescription drugs. According to an article by Donna Leinwand in the June 12, 2006 USA
Today, it’s a culture with its own lingo: Bowls and baggies of random pills often are called “trail mix,” and on
Internet chat sites, collecting pills from the family medicine chest is called “pharming.” In the article, Carol
Falkowski, director of research communications for the Hazelden Foundation, says young abusers of
prescription drugs also have begun using the Internet to share “recipes” for getting high. Some websites are so
simplistic, she says, that they refer to pills by color, rather than their brand names, content or potency. The
parties, she says, may help explain the increase in teens and young adults showing up in the emergency room,
overdosed on bizarre and potentially lethal combinations of pills.

Ahhhhh ... paranoia with truthy gooooodnness!

Comment #127: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  06:10 PM

Here’s Slate hunting the Wild Pharm Party or evidence of their existence: http://www.slate.com/id/2187499/

(hint ... hefallumps and woozils have better documentation)

Comment #128: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  06:13 PM

Ms. Kate,

You’re right they might as well have yelled it if others had done it before with impunity. I agree with you. This wasn’t done because others before him had gotten away with it. In fact others, black and white, had been punished for this exact same behavior. He felt it was because he was black and even after phone calls home and lengthy explanations he could still be overheard complaining about being in trouble because he was black and getting no respect.

Comment #129: Ryan  on  06/25  at  06:16 PM

As far as the pills are concerned there are reasons for having them in the nurses office. We had students suspended this year because they stole medication from a student, who was supposed to have it in the nurses office, and started selling it to other kids, one of which began to have irregular heart palpatations. They are kept in the nurses office for liability reasons. If you let them bring in whatever they will do exactly that.

Comment #130: Ryan  on  06/25  at  06:20 PM

Ryan, it’s one thing if they’re bringing in Vicodin or propranolol or some shit like that.  It’s another thing if it’s over-the-counter stuff or birth control - I mean, seriously, what, are you afraid that kids are going to deal birth control?

Comment #131: INTPagan  on  06/25  at  06:21 PM

If you let them bring in what, Ryan.

Nobody here is saying that street-value prescriptions should be in student’s hands.  What we are saying is that drugs that won’t be abused like OTC medications,  BCP AND GODDAMN INSULIN INJECTORS, INHALERS AND MIGRAINE MEDS shouldn’t be the business of the school.

Easy to understand and implement.  Never was a problem when I was growing up, either, even though the diabetic kids had syringes back then!!

Comment #132: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  06:23 PM

Oh yeah ... epi pens.  Yes, you aren’t dying enough ... you can’t go to the nurse (oops, can’t breathe, well, that’s your fault!).

Comment #133: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  06:26 PM

Jesus Christ, this argument is getting so stupid that I might have to go see the nurse for my blood pressure medication.

Comment #134: INTPagan  on  06/25  at  06:27 PM

There is this ridiculous series of commercials in my area about kids abusing pharmaceuticals.  One is just totally ridiculous.  It’s supposed to be a street drug deal complaining that he has no business anymore because kids just get high at home.  He is the worst actor ever.  No one would believe that he could actually be a drug dealer.  The whole concept is pretty ridiculous anyway, because there just aren’t a whole lot of prescription drugs that give a pleasant high.  Birth control pills, thyroid medication, heartburn medication, nasal spray, and prescription-strength naproxen won’t do much for you.  The only things that might get someone high are narcotice painkillers and some psychiatric drugs, although those usually make you feel worse rather than better, unless you have the specific condition they treat.

Comment #135: bananacat  on  06/25  at  06:27 PM

No.  You are NOT going to the nurse during a test, you hear me! You should plan to have your asthma attacks during break young man!

Comment #136: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  06:28 PM

Damn, you caught me.  I was going to sell my birth control pills to some of the other kids and then we were going to get high on, um, birth control.

(I’m a chick, but it’s all good.)

Seriously, I go through Pandagon comment breaks, because threads like this raise my blood pressure since stupidity annoys me.  I mean, seriously?  Kids might end up getting high if they aren’t made to keep their insulin in the principal’s office?  ::headdesk::

Comment #137: INTPagan  on  06/25  at  06:34 PM

This is system wide—schools no longer let kids skip grades as much as they used to. I think the concept is that while many kids might have widely different abilities starting out, they tend to converge over time, and they feel it’s better to simply cater to those kids within their own grade rather than skipping them. It’s sort of the reverse version of social promotion. Not saying this is necessarily a great idea, but that’s the reasoning.

“I skipped a grade” used to be a typical refrain of a bright child. Now you only see those 16-year-old college students in very rare cases.

This is one symptom of the “teach to mediocrity” mentality endemic in US K-12 schools. 

Can anyone explain arguments on why it is good to mandate a 13/14 year old be stuck learning standard 9th grade material when s(he) has not even mastered elementary/junior high school material or is eager and ready to take intermediate and above undergraduate/graduate level courses?

From what I’ve seen and heard from most teachers and fellow classmates from junior high to college, such inflexible policies tend to overwhelm those who are un/underprepared to learn at their expected grade level while frustrating and boring the bright students who want to move on to more challenging material. 

Incidentally, there was one high school classmate who graduated at 15 and went straight into a Phd program in math.  Also, there are certain colleges like Simon’s Rock which accept 15 year olds for undergrad admissions.

Comment #138: exholt  on  06/25  at  06:36 PM

Exholt, I skipped a grade and never regretted it. 

My 13 year old, who has already spent much of his first day of summer vacation with borrowed software, teaching himself enough Japanese to enroll in the Japanese Saturday School next year, will likely be interested in Simon’s Bard of the Rock.  I think I will show him.

Comment #139: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  06:39 PM

Ms. Kate,

Yes it should be the business of the school because the school is liable if anything happens. We have to know about it and if it is a severe condition then yes they can have it on them. If a parent wants their kid to have tylenol then they have to send a note saying it’s ok because of liability. And for fuck sakes no teacher is going to keep a kid from their inhaler if they are having an asthma attack. That’s bullshit and the teacher should be held liable for their negligence if that’s the case. I know in my school if a kid asks to go to the nurse we let them and then the nurse documents why they came in and the reason we do that is because believe it or not, we have kids who make shit up to get out of class. I’m not arguing for zero tolerance and I’m just telling you why things are often done the way they are. As far as birth control is concerned I think they should have it but depending on the student I would be concerned if they were leaving my class every single day to take it, especially if it is a once a day pill and could be taken earlier. Given how long they were out of class, and their grade, it might appear that they are choosing that time in order to get out of a class which has been done before.

Comment #140: Ryan  on  06/25  at  06:46 PM

Ryan, from a public health perspective you are full of it.  If you need medication on you, it doesn’t matter if you are a school kid - you need it on you!  More and more school policies are reflecting this reality.  You are too much vested in a broken system predicated on paranoia and damn little evidence of anything happening to see that.

Some stats please?  Or is liability theory borne of paranoia more important than reality?

Comment #141: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  06:49 PM

On the other hand, my 10-year-old is functioning well above grade level in some areas but if the school suggested his skipping a grade I would be solidly against it. He’s really *young* for his age and I can’t imagine a scenario in which being around older, slightly more sophisticated kids would be good for him socially.

In some schools kids from different grades have hardly any time to interact (at my son’s schools the grades have to eat lunch at different tables even, limiting inter-grade interaction to one recess) and it can be really hard for kids socially to be isolated to a group of older kids who have a likely chance of regarding them as a little bit of a “freak” anyway (I say this as someone who definitely qualified to skip grades as far as academic abilities go, but similarly wouldn’t have cut it on the social front).

Comment #142: kristin  on  06/25  at  06:49 PM

Exholt,

I completely agree with you. I know in the high schools in my area they are on a credit system but not in the middle school. We are trying to go to standards based education but it has proven difficult because it requires far smaller classrooms which means more money and space and there is often not enough of either. I wish that we actually tracked kids instead of believing naively that every child will learn the same thing at the same level as that holds back the bright kids, bores the average student and often bypasses the low learners.

Comment #143: Ryan  on  06/25  at  06:51 PM

Ms. Kate,

You’ve never worked in a school have you? I don’t know why I ask that because its obvious you haven’t. The reason they have this is because, rightly or wrongly, they have been threatened with lawsuits and so implement these policies. They also do it because the students don’t usually remember and regularly forget to take their medicine. Having it in the nurse’s office is a check on the students and allows the school to administer it properly.

Comment #144: Ryan  on  06/25  at  06:58 PM

My 13 year old, who has already spent much of his first day of summer vacation with borrowed software, teaching himself enough Japanese to enroll in the Japanese Saturday School next year, will likely be interested in Simon’s Bard of the Rock.  I think I will show him.

Ms. Kate,

Out of curiosity, what software is he using?

As for considering Simon’s Rock, great place from what I heard from people who attended including a college classmate who transferred from there. 

Only thing is that it tends to be more of an artsy place which may be a turnoff if your son is a hardcore science/engineering type.  It was one reason why few high school classmates, if any, applied or even bothered to consider it or other schools like it.

Comment #145: exholt  on  06/25  at  06:58 PM

Ryan, my husband taught for several years in Public and Catholic schools.

The only near lawsuit in that school system was because a child did not have her epi pen handy.

Threatened with lawsuits?  BY WHOM?  WHEN WHERE WHY?  These stories are everywhere = how about documentation?  I would think it more likely that a diabetic kid or asthmatic kid would be harmed and sue.

I even demonstrated using FDA documents that lactase was not a drug and not harmful, and still got your same bullshit spiel about “lawsuits” without any documentation of any real lawsuits, prevalence of lawsuits, or threats.  What next, faculty rainbow parties or pharm party rumors?  Lets see the information.

Comment #146: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  07:02 PM

He’s using a borrowed copy of Rosetta Stone. 

When he’s not doing that, he’s playing piano, reading, or drawing.

Comment #147: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  07:03 PM

Oh yes, Ryan, you still have yet to explain why legal, over the counter medications are under this same umbrella.  Tylenol is the only potentially dangerous one.

Comment #148: Ms Kate  on  06/25  at  07:04 PM

I wish that we actually tracked kids instead of believing naively that every child will learn the same thing at the same level as that holds back the bright kids, bores the average student and often bypasses the low learners.

Tracking as it was practiced in the US and is practiced in many parts of the world is too inflexible and penalizes students for messing up early in life as we all tend to do in elementary and junior high school.  It also lends itself too easily to being abused by teachers and other educational authorities to penalize kids from minority and disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds. 

Instead, I’d be for a more flexible system which would allow those performing below grade-level to be placed at/above grade level when s(he) has caught up and s(he), parents, and the teachers feel s(he) is ready and those at or above grade level to throttle back the pace if they encounter overwhelming challenges AT ANY POINT in K-12.

Comment #149: exholt  on  06/25  at  07:10 PM

*Sigh*

I’m not being clear and for that I apologize. Re-reading the posts I think I see where I made my mistake. The assertions I am making come purely from my teaching experience where threats have been made about medications in relation to 504’s and IEP’s, which are legally binding documents. At the moment I do not have any studies or statistics to present but this conversation has certainly spurned me to begin looking. I am agreement with you that students should be allowed to carry over the counter medication that does not pose a threat. However, I think you are talking more high school where I am referencing middle school students which does make a difference as far as their maturity level and reliability to administer their own medication is concerned. I know that we also try to keep most things in the nurses office after we have caught students being stupid and snorting crushed up motrin or trying to bring pot into school with their inhaler. Again this is anecdotal and unfortunately schools tend to crack down on everyone when one person does something stupid. I think this goes back to zero tolerance laws which lend themselves to abuse. It is far more desireable to look at these instances on a case by case bases and make judgements from there.

Comment #150: Ryan  on  06/25  at  07:21 PM

Exholt,

Again, I agree with you about tracking as traditionally practiced but the system you advocate would only be possible with smaller classrooms and a more fluid system, which I know in my district the teachers are exploring and hopefully working towards. One of the main problems with it has become when a student does not wish to learn which does happen. I have had students that do not care and will not work. We have tried several different avenues for such students with little luck as they don’t seem care and their parents could careless. If the student doesn’t progress do you still keep a kid in the eighth grade till their 17? How do you work with and encourage a student like that who doesn’t want to be encouraged? By the way this is the profile of a real student and not something I’ve made up.

Comment #151: Ryan  on  06/25  at  07:27 PM

Ms. Kate,

If you don’t mind me asking, what state do you live in and do they have language immersion schools? What you are doing for your child is terribly impressive.

Comment #152: Ryan  on  06/25  at  07:29 PM

Exholt,

Another factor in the enthusiasm is the perception shaped by instances of exceedingly bad teachers who were retained and continued to teach at a given school despite his/her abusive behaviors and/or refusal to fulfill their responsibilities to teach their students.

Yes, these instances do happen, but I wonder if that leads to reasoning along the lines of the availability heuristic, i.e. we get the perception that the problem of bad teachers is worse than it actually is (in aggregate) because we see/hear about those instances way more than we do about instances of good teachers.

So yes, I agree that your observation is correct.  It’s just that I question whether the perception adequately matches the reality, again, on the whole.

There were a fair number of such deadwood teachers in my junior high and high school who at best, spent the entire class through the whole semester just reading the newspaper while the rest of the class were left to their own devices….or worse…continued to be employed despite documented cases of denying disabled students services/accommodations they were entitled to under state educational laws.  And yes, I do speak from firsthand experience as a student who encountered both types of bad teachers.

I don’t doubt your experiences at all.  It’s possible that I was just fortunate (or that my memory is faulty) because I can’t recall ever having a teacher who acted like those in your examples.  I’m not saying that they didn’t exist in my district, but I never directly experienced teachers like that.

Comment #153: Linnaeus  on  06/25  at  07:57 PM

You’re not fired if you’re still drawing a paycheck—that’s my basic rule. 

Your basic rule is empirically wrong. The definition of “fired” does not include your infantile formulation, in either its common use or in a legal sense. Further, one can be fired from a position and rehired by the same company or corporate parent and nevertheless sue that corporation for unlawful firing—so your point is moot.

However, you still seem to be acting deliberately dense. The positions themselves are completely eliminated; it was not reassignment:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/1638912,CST-NWS-skul25.article

But if you believe that 93% of CPS teachers deserve their ratings of “Superior” and “Excellent.” this will not persuade you.

I never said that. You’re creating a strawman. You said that: twice. Please stop shovelling bullshit and claiming it’s mine. I don’t even understand why those stats you’re throwing out are even relevant.

Comment #154: No One of Consequence  on  06/25  at  08:03 PM

So, Dark Avenger, you really think that an elementary school teacher who bashes a kid’s head into a desk (for any reason!) should be retained?

Considering the fact that, as explained previously, my father’s union activity wasn’t defending bad or incompetent teachers in the community college he worked at,  you seem to have drawn the wrong conclusion, Ms. Kate from my post here.

One of my brothers was abused by his fellow students, and the administration ignored it until Mother Avenger took him out of school and said he wouldn’t be back until his safety was assured.

Guess what, it worked.

Do you always theorize without having all the data in hand to do so, Ms. Kate?

Try finding another strawman to practice on, please.

Comment #155: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/25  at  08:23 PM

Uhura, find a multicultural area if you can, a place with black, white, hispanic, asian, and mixed families in non-trivial numbers.

We live in such an area. The issue is the teachers are mostly WHITE.

From what I’ve seen, it makes it very hard to lump certain kids into certain categories when there is a big mix of folk in both the community and in the staff of the schools.

Fast fact: Most minorities don’t want to be teachers.

  Talk to people about your concerns, particularly people like yourself who have children in the schools.

To what end?

Comment #156: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/25  at  08:52 PM

Everybody but the kids profits from giving abusive teachers a slap on the wrist. The administrators get a nice PR issue about how the union prevents them from giving kids a good education, the union gets an object lesson in just how powerful it is, other teachers get a nice warm feeling of security about their own tenure.

I think whoever talked about teachers as being like firefighters or police was right, and that in many ways this kind of screwed-up no-accountability behavior substantiates that. When you give people huge piles of daily stress, very little power over the conditions or results of their work, and large amounts of public disapprobation, you pretty much have to give them tenure…

Comment #157: paul  on  06/25  at  09:10 PM

So, refusing to work for next to nothing is objectionable because why?

Would you work if I offered you a contract based on wage rates for your position that are 20 years old?

Dark Avenger, either you missed my point or I didn’t make it well.  Clarification: I strongly approve of the actions of the defence bar, find it long overdue and hate the fact that access to experienced counsel always got shoved to the bottom of the priority pile.  Bravo, Addario et al.

Comment #158: seeker6079  on  06/25  at  10:13 PM

Glad to hear of it, seeker, and I withdraw my remark as well.

Comment #159: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/25  at  10:45 PM

The tenure is a trade-in for lower pay. If cops and teachers were given more thorough up-front benefits (including psych benefits for the stressful positions) and a much higher salary, the tenure-pension attached-for-life suicide pact between the state and the employee wouldn’t be necessary. Until states make such personnel a financial priority (over, say, stadiums), the rest of society wouldn’t have to pick through the mess.

Comment #160: No One of Consequence  on  06/25  at  11:06 PM

The tenure is a trade-in for lower pay. If cops and teachers were given more thorough up-front benefits (including psych benefits for the stressful positions) and a much higher salary, the tenure-pension attached-for-life suicide pact between the state and the employee wouldn’t be necessary. Until states make such personnel a financial priority (over, say, stadiums), the rest of society wouldn’t have to pick through the mess.

Even if the conditions for teacher compensation that you suggest were met, I would say that teachers should still have some mechanism, based either in a collective bargaining agreement or civil service law, to protect against such acts as arbitrary discipline and/or dismissal.

Comment #161: Linnaeus  on  06/25  at  11:30 PM

However, you still seem to be acting deliberately dense. The positions themselves are completely eliminated; it was not reassignment:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/1638912,CST-NWS-skul25.article

Ah. Those are layoffs. Fewer kids means fewer teachers are necessary to teach them. That’s not the same as your original citation: failing schools finally being closed.

But you don’t get it. The formal teacher evaluation system is useless. Nobody gets fired for poor performance. Closing a failing school is a drastic step, kind of like burning down your house to get rid of a mice infestation. Eighty-four percent of those teachers get another assignment—that pretty much indicates those teachers who don’t are duds.

Principals can choose which teachers to add to their schools—they don’t have to take someone else’s castoff. Maybe these are wonderful teachers who simply don’t interview well; I don’t know.

I do feel sorry for the staffs—maintenance, janitorial, cafeteria—who don’t get picked up elsewhere.

Comment #162: Hector B.  on  06/26  at  12:31 AM

Ms. Kate, while the enrichment stuff is a great thing to do for your child and will teach him a lot more than the school system will, I want to be a voice of caution about the early college thing. I’m just saying without completely laying out my adolescence here that very bright children often seem a lot more mature in the family context where the fact that they lack some very basic life skills isn’t apparent. I have heard better things about Simon’s Rock than a certain girls-only program in Virginia, but it was my experience that a decent magnet school, AP track, or IB provides as much stimulation as college freshman classes, without putting you in over your head on the life skills front. Of course you know your child better than anyone except him and I’m sure your choices will be fair ones. I’ve just seen that situation go heavily heavily pear-shaped, and people tend to get so excited over the prodigy thing that sometimes no one mentions downsides.

Comment #163: purpleshoes  on  06/26  at  01:06 AM

Dark Avenger:
One reform that I would like to see applied to Ontario’s Legal Aid system ties into the `bureaucratic interference’ discussion earlier upthread.  All legal aid accounts are vetted by full-time lawyers.  They examine whether you stayed in tariff, whether you needed to X or Y, and so forth.  What it amounts to is that every account which isn’t a straightforward bill is scrutinized by lawyers who don’t actually practice law.  You can imagine how infuriating this is, and how much money is going in salaries and benefits to people who don’t actually provide the service.

Comment #164: seeker6079  on  06/26  at  08:49 AM

I wish I had not read this fucking thread.

Comment #165: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/26  at  01:16 PM

A White lady on my forum actually posed this question:

Lots have black men have been successful in spite of their situation. In spite of being black, in spite of being poor, in spite of being arrested, in spite of being beaten up.


Is it because we’re all racist, or do Black men commit more crimes?

Comment #166: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/26  at  01:25 PM

Oh - the discussion was about Black men being arrested / hassled by the cops. :(

Comment #167: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/26  at  01:27 PM

my experience that a decent magnet school, AP track, or IB provides as much stimulation as college freshman classes, without putting you in over your head on the life skills front. Of course you know your child better than anyone except him and I’m sure your choices will be fair ones. I’ve just seen that situation go heavily heavily pear-shaped, and people tend to get so excited over the prodigy thing that sometimes no one mentions downsides.

Good point on the social aspects.  There are many high school kids, however, who are actually far more mature than their peers and would socially benefit more from being placed in a good undergraduate setting rather than being retained in high school with the same aged…though more socially immature peers.  Even if one is immature in terms of life skills, s(he) may benefit from being around older more mature peers provided the undergrad institution and its student body prioritizes academics and is not a “party-school”. 

As for whether magnet schools can provide the same level of stimulation….this can be chancy as the quality of magnet schools can vary greatly from what I’ve gathered from colleagues and friends whose children attended magnet schools in many other areas including the Boston area. 

Some do an exemplary job “overpreparing” like my high school did which means most kids from these types usually excel in their undergrad studies…even when they are taking intermediate/advanced courses and doing course overloads each semester.*  Others, however, provide an “AP/IB” curriculum which would be considered unacceptably watered down for even a “regular” non-AP/IB track at urban public magnet high schools like the one I attended. 

* Speaking partially from personal experience and mostly from those of fellow high school classmates.

Comment #168: exholt  on  06/26  at  03:13 PM

First of all—I’m a little amazed that girls need to have their birth control dispensed to them at school. The BCP is a once-a-day medication that needs to be taken every day. Why can’t they just take it before bed like the rest of us did? I mean, you need your parent’s permission to get the thing, so it’s not like this is some sort of weird privacy thing.

Next—now, don’t get me wrong, I’ve encountered plenty of bad teachers in my day, and there is no doubt in my mind that zero-tolerance policies are a great way for schools to railroad “undesirables” into alternative schools, and I’m not going to argue against Jesse’s point, but some of these comments are absolutely ridiculous.

This notion that we can just “get rid of the bad teachers and put good teachers in their place” presupposes that the supply for teachers outweighs the demand just because a bunch of crappy teachers are squatting in the jobs that good teachers would otherwise snap up in a heartbeat. Not the case. A lot of crappy teachers are keeping their jobs because there’s no one to replace them. Teachers are paid poverty-line wages in this country, so a lot of people who would otherwise consider teaching can’t do it because they wouldn’t be able to support their family. And no, I don’t think teachers should get six-figure salaries (although, being married to one and having been reared by one, it would be nice for me), because it takes more than just a desire to get paid to be a teacher. But we have to start by incentivizing the position more than we have by making it a living wage job. Until then, this idea that we could just “pitch the bad teachers and put the good ones in their place” is about as realistic as demanding that people stop having kids so that class sizes shrink and we don’t need quite so many teachers and we can get rid of the bad teachers that way.

Finally, a lot of the time it is the parent’s fault. Helicopter parenting is not something that the media has blown out of proportion: these people exist and they make it impossible not only for their kids to learn, but often for everyone else’s kids to learn, because they demand so many concessions for their child’s disruptive behavior that the teacher cannot mete out effective discipline. This idea that we should automatically “blame teachers first” when a kid goes off the rails is preposterous. Yes, teachers are humans and capable of monstrous insensitivity and criminal negligence, but so are the kid’s parents, last I checked. And when you’ve got a parent who will threaten lawsuits and rain down all sorts of abusive hellfire because their Special Angel Son screamed at the top of his lungs and crawled under his desk because the teacher asked him to stop talking to his friend and do the worksheet, they are absolutely at fault. This sort of shit is happening more, not less, than it used to. It pisses me off to no end that teachers, who as I’ve pointed out already, are not exactly in it for the money, are the first in the crosshairs when there’s something wrong with the quality of education our kids are receiving.

Comment #169: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/26  at  04:46 PM

This notion that we can just “get rid of the bad teachers and put good teachers in their place” presupposes that the supply for teachers outweighs the demand just because a bunch of crappy teachers are squatting in the jobs that good teachers would otherwise snap up in a heartbeat. Not the case. A lot of crappy teachers are keeping their jobs because there’s no one to replace them.

In addition, there has been an increasing social stigma associated with teaching because of the effects of the combination of low pay, bad working conditions, disrespect from all corners of society, etc which ends up driving away most of the topflight undergrad students, those who have better career options, and those who aren’t altruistic. 

With the exception of the few topflight undergrads who were motivated by altruism and/or had socio-economic privilege, most people who tend to go into teaching from what several friends who taught K-12 found and from what I’ve seen as a student did so because their academic performance and lack of career skills meant they had few other options. 

It doesn’t help that even the best Ed grad schools have far lower academic admission requirements than other grad/professional programs on the same campus because few topflight students are willing to consider teaching K-12 as a career and thus apply to such programs so they can only take what’s left. 

In some quarters, this causes the K-12 teaching profession to be associated as a career of last resort for mediocre undergrad students.  This is further undermined by MSM reports such as one from the Boston area where a disturbingly high number of K-12 teachers with Ed.M degrees failed a 6th grade-level statewide proficiency test. 

This creates a vicious cycle where crappy pay, conditions, and treatment from all corners of society drive away the best students who have other options which causes the teaching profession to be mostly populated by mediocre students whose presence and sometimes performance causes more stigma and disrespect from society at large…and then rinse and repeat ad finitem. 

Finally, a lot of the time it is the parent’s fault. Helicopter parenting is not something that the media has blown out of proportion: these people exist and they make it impossible not only for their kids to learn, but often for everyone else’s kids to learn, because they demand so many concessions for their child’s disruptive behavior that the teacher cannot mete out effective discipline.

Agreed though I believe it is a confluence of both/and rather than solely bad parents or bad teachers along with American society’s long traditional disdain for intellectualism and intellectuals. Alexis de Tocqueville was already noticing this problem during the 1830’s as illustrated in “Democracy In America”. 

To really fix the root of the problem, everyone in US society needs a severe attitude adjustment about how much we value intellectualism, intellectuals, and education.  This is one area where we can learn from the best parts of other societies…especially those in East Asia, Africa, and Europe while avoiding the pitfalls of their systems.

Comment #170: exholt  on  06/26  at  08:01 PM

@MosesZD: I was bullied quite a bit in school too (not for race though; I’m white) I was bullied because I was fat. Well, I still am, but that’s beside the point. I tried going to the teachers and their aids, but all that happened was the little shits were sent to the “wall” where they had to stand for five minutes. Rest assured, when time was up, they’d be back. I spent most recesses during most of my gradeschool years running or hiding (or getting picked last for football). Anyway, I was a sensitive kid, and didn’t do much; eventually though, I decided the hell with it, and started busting skulls. The bullying stopped pretty quick, but I was still punished for it.

@catgirl: Your eraser-slinging story reminds me of a guidance counselor I had in grade school named Mr. Oswald, and one lesson in particular. It was about making assumptions, whether based on rumors, stereotypes etc., without looking at the facts or doing any investigation. In a bit of role playing, he had me throw an eraser at the blackboard while he pretended to be writing on it. When it hit, he whipped around and blamed someone else, calling them out in a torrent of words. Years later, after the fire and arrogance of youth has (mostly ; )) cooled off, I truly understand the lesson and do my best to be objective and obtain all information before forming an opinion.

Comment #171: The Gray Train  on  06/26  at  08:53 PM

@ak: the difference between the white kid’s hate speech and the other kids quest for cheesy, deep fried artery plugs is this: one was words, and the other was action. now don’t get me wrong; hate speech is a whole other beast from normal taunting. the kid should be educated on the civil rights movement and the KKK, as well as a conference with the boy, the girl and both of their parents. as for skipping class, the kid should get detention; part of going to school is learning how to follow a schedule and rules, along with developing responsibility and building character. while i bet the fries were tasty, his responsibility was to remain in school.

Comment #172: The Gray Train  on  06/26  at  09:06 PM

the difference between the white kid’s hate speech and the other kids quest for cheesy, deep fried artery plugs is this:

Making racist comments is hateful, nasty behavior that hurts people in palpable ways. Eating cheese fries is nutritionally questionable. As for leaving school to do it, whatever. My sense of morality and justice fails to be moved. If he’s regularly ditching class or doing his schoolwork, sure, teach him to be more responsible. But at least he’s not a hateful, piss-spitting worm.

Comment #173: junk science  on  06/26  at  10:02 PM

sorry, “not doing his schoolwork.”

Comment #174: junk science  on  06/26  at  10:02 PM

as for skipping class, the kid should get detention; part of going to school is learning how to follow a schedule and rules, along with developing responsibility and building character. while i bet the fries were tasty, his responsibility was to remain in school.

Going to school everyday and having a perfect attendance record, following rules, and remaining in school is developing responsibility and building character…..umm…yeah…right. 

This sort of mindlessly following the rules without question or else face arbitrarily applied harsh punishments is one reason so many seemingly “perfect kids” who avoided “being bad” end up floundering and failing once they hit college and find that the main responsibility for their undergraduate education falls mainly on them and that there won’t be harsh punishments and handholdings from parents, teachers, and deans to keep them out of trouble. 

Saddest part….if he was an undergrad at my college..the most my Profs would have done if they were inclined to punish is deduct a few points for class participation for that day…if they even bothered.  In most cases….the Prof wouldn’t have minded as they understood we may need to run off to get to our next class, get something to eat due to the fact our schedules may run past mealtimes, or that the weather was unusually nice.  Heck….sometimes our Profs will join us in leaving the class to grab a late meal…..smile

The fact this happened is probably his first offense adds to the sense that his punishment is grossly excessive.  The fact there is a racist element to this only adds to that sense….

Comment #175: exholt  on  06/26  at  10:51 PM

Agreed though I believe it is a confluence of both/and

which I was arguing as well, but I think that the scales are certainly tipped against the parents in this one. As I’ve mentioned, I’ve had teachers that border on monstrous in my days, and of course I immediately think of them when “bad teacher” comes up, but most of my teachers were at least capable and competent, even if there weren’t a lot of “mind-blowingly awesome” ones. But a few helicopter parents can hobble a teacher’s entire classroom plans with their demands for IEPs and special treatment for their kid. It’s obnoxious.

But you’re absolutely right in that there is a downward spiral of prejudice against teachers. Angrymob specifically went to college to become a math teacher, preferably high school math. He excelled in his department, and since math is the one subject where you are pretty much guaranteed to make a 6-figure salary with just a bachelor’s degree (actuary), all of his professors were actually trying to encourage him not to become a teacher because he could “do better.”

Talk is so cheap: People are so quick to talk about how teachers “touch the future” and how they do such an important job, but when it comes time to put real value on the job, people just get pissy about their taxes.

Comment #176: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/27  at  12:24 PM

so…

i’m only going to talk about one thing.
about those school nurses, hall passes, and medication that is actually medically necessary but no one believes you:

i have been on narcotics since i was NINE. because constant chronic pain from the diseases i have.
drugs i needed on a regular basis just to function:
naproxin (Rx level)
Flexaril (muscle spasms, often extreme enough to make me fall)
Vicodin (there is a balance to be achieved between *too stoned to think* and *in too much pain to think* i found that balance by age 11. i was prescribed a vicodin every 4 hours from age 10-age19)
Birth Control
Lexapro (the *SINGLE* SSRI that helped with fibromalgia)
Wellbuturin
Phenegrin (for when any of the above made me nausous, which happened often)
Benadryl (for when any of the above made me *ITCH*)
Thyroid replacement
Various Migrain and/or anti-seizure meds, these varied by year
Epi-Pen

i think that’s everything was that Rx.
guess how often a teacher would let me GO AND TAKE ONE OF THESE NECESSARY MEDICATIONS?
my teacher’s *NEVER* believed i needed *ANY* of my meds until i *LITERALLY* either threw up or fell down.
also, MORE THAN FUCKING ONCE, like 8-9 PER YEAR, large amounts of my Rxs DISAPPEARED
but it was never because they were stolen by someone in the office, oh NO - we filled out the forms wrong or they were miscounted (there was an incredibly anal standard procedure that *started* with having to take in sealed-by-the-pharmacist bottles and complicated paperwork to verify the meds that was *always* strictly followed, but whenever my pills came up missing, i was told that *we* must have miscounted. if it wasn’t that we just hadn’t brought them in. despite proof of correct count)
actually, my favorite was the winter of my Sophomore year - at the beginning of the new semester, a new nurse was hired. she fucking decided unilaterally without ever having met me, talked to me or anyone who knew me, without calling my doctor or pharmacy, and without even reading the medical chart the school had for me, that i was just a fucking drug addict and threw away *ALL* of the medication i had in the office at that point. including epi-pen and etc, it was over $2,000 worth of meds
because i was *obviously* a drug addict .
and the school? blew me off until my mother came to the school *PISSED* that all my meds were gone and they cost over $2,000 and what right did a fucking anyone have to make *any* sort of diagnosis on a person she had never met or even looked at the charts for?
at which point the school tried to expell me, and it took bringing two doctors and a fucking LAWYER to the school board for them stop being stupid shits.

but teacher inflexibility and the stupidity of school nurses aside (this nurse? also told all the staff that i was on BC and that i was having sex with multiple partners and that i had to have had an abortion, and also told staff and also other students that i was a drug addict - not just my Rxs, but she claimed that i also did cocain and that was why i was so thin and threw up all the time)

there were 5 minutes between classes. i actually literally didn’t have time between most classed to get to the next class, let alone get all the way across campus to the office, convince the secretary i needed my meds, convince the VP i needed my meds, and then convince the nurse that i needed my meds. even if i had been physically able to make all my classes and/or could move as fast as all the rest of the students, it took a minimum of 15 minutes to get my meds once i was in the office

and see, i’m not in a wheelchair or on crutches or wearing any braces - therefore, according to Educational Administration Logic, i am not disabled and am just a lazy slutty drug-addict slacker who probably slept with her teachers to get her grades.

eventually i got permission from the STATE Board of Education to carry my meds on me. but i was always treated as a suspected drug addict and possible dealer, and had to constantly *prove* that i was not.
and i may appear to be an extreme case (I’m *not*). but how many kids are on meds? *needed* meds of some sort or another? and most of those meds have to be taken multiple times a day, and AT A SPECIFIC TIME every day - and most schools just don’t fucking let it happen. so the bi-polar kid who needs to take Lithium at 9 am and again at 2pm is generally going to be *fucked* at least part of the time, one way or another, if s/he has to go to the office for every dose.

it’s idiotic. it’s cruel. it’s petty. it’s actually pretty damned reprehensible.
and it *DOES. NOT. WORK.*

Comment #177: denelian  on  06/28  at  05:31 AM
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