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Next entry: The Department of Justice defends DADT, White house stonewalling on repeal plan continues Previous entry: There is literally nothing about Sarah Palin that’s genuine

Maybe they don’t want to be happy

Matt notices part of David Brooks’ stat-spewing on what affects happiness, a statistic that should actually give people pause.

The daily activities most associated with happiness are sex, socializing after work and having dinner with others. The daily activity most injurious to happiness is commuting.

To this, Matt notes:

Brooks doesn’t pivot from this into any real policy specifics.

To which I say, of course he doesn’t.  Because the lede in that story, and the subtle implication throughout, is that women having careers is bad for them, because they need to spend all their time at home catering to and probably monitoring their husbands to keep them from cheating.  Because even a man who wears Nazi gear is the sort of catch you need to hang on to, lest you become a crazy old spinster. Picky ladies are lonely ladies, after all!

But while Brooks sees all happiness studies as a tool to bash independent women, Matt’s actually willing to think about policy implications.  Since traffic not only makes global warming worse and eats up productivity, but it also makes people so unhappy, we should really work on reducing it through increased public transportation, telecommuting, and of course, congestion pricing.  All great points, but to my mind, this unsurprising statistic about how traffic makes people so unhappy should be a reminder not to overrate the importance of happiness to people making decisions.

Focusing on what makes people happy is a big trend right now, and I generally applaud it because it has the potential to open people’s eyes and get them to look at mundane issues in new ways.  But I don’t think it’s useful to assume that whatever increases people’s happiness is what they’re going to want.  People often choose duty over joy, and with a lot of conservatives especially I’ve noticed a tendency to feel self-righteous because they don’t have as much happiness as others.  People will marry people they don’t like, have children they don’t want, take jobs that make them hate their lives because they’re high status, or otherwise prioritize other desires over the desire to be happy.  Many, many people choose living in fear over living with joy.  I don’t think these people are stupid, and would necessarily prefer happiness if they were educated to the fact that it’s an option.  Again, they may even see happiness as suspect, a sign you’re doing something wrong.  (For example.) 


You see this with the traffic situation.  Exploding commute times are the result of suburban sprawl.  And even though there’s always people getting defensive and saying they moved to the suburbs for the right reasons in these threads, the extent of suburban sprawl owes a lot to both fear and status-seeking.  Urban centers are painted as scary (with racial diversity being used to raise the stakes with much of the audience for this), dirty, crowded, and low status in terms of private amenities.  People are willing and able to give away the joy of not sitting in traffic in order to avoid living in smaller apartments that seem less impressive than some of the big suburban homes, and they’re willing to take on the much higher chance of dying in a car accident to avoid the possibility of being mugged walking down the sidewalk.  You can educate them until you’re blue in the face on the statistics, but there are levels of meaning that are simply more important to people than happiness or even realistic risk assessment. 

Until you understand this, the outrage over health care reform will never make sense.  From the rational actor/happiness project perspective, there is no reason for your average middle class tea bagger to be up in arms over this health care reform package.  It won’t do anything to hurt them, and for a lot of them, it will have substantial benefits.  The simple reduction in fear of being unemployed alone should argue for it, as should the ability of middle class people to continue doing what they already do, which is extending young adulthood for their children until their mid-20s so those kids can situate themselves into more lucrative and stable careers.  I could go on, but seriously, the package has a ton of goodies for these folks.  And yet they freak out.  Don’t they want to be happy?

Well, maybe, but it’s certainly less important to them than maintaining their sense of superiority to other people.  They don’t want the rising tide to lift all boats, if their neighbor’s boat lifts up.  Just as many people will give up 2 hours of their precious day sitting in traffic instead of having to dirty themselves by being neighborly or, god forbid, living in a smaller place in the city, so they’ll give up reliable health care in order to make sure that others they deem lesser don’t have a share in it.  It’s not just traffic, either.  The other studies Brooks noted about how being a social person involved in your community increase happiness?  I think a lot of people get that, too, but look at how the suburbs that have gone up in the past 20 years have moved more and more towards visual symbolism of shutting yourself off from the world.  No sidewalks, no front porches, and increasingly, no front yards.  For whatever reason, this has been a big trend in the U.S., and shows that people will often put other considerations before happiness, even ones that make no sense at all. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:04 AM • (163) Comments

Excellent point. I’ve been interested in how, contrary to economic dogma, people often do not act in such a way as to maximize their own self interest. Here you go even further into happiness itself, and this is really key to understanding folks as well. Below self-interest there is something much stranger called self-love and everyone is its puppet.

Comment #1: atheist  on  03/31  at  11:20 AM

I have never had a job with a long driving commute, and this is exactly why: driving in commuter traffic is HORRIBLE.

Comment #2: Dr. Psycho  on  03/31  at  11:24 AM

This is not surprising - in the US, the conservatives and libertarians value money and status over happiness (dirty liberal tree-hugging happiness!), and get their own twisted pleasure out of being on top of the heap.

We, do, after all, as a culture worship and try to be the people who specialize in having everthing while others have none - what greater pleasure is there for your average teabagger than making sure that no matter how small the pile is, you are the only one on top?  Even if it means making your pile smaller?  Life isn’t worth living unless you’re number one!

The trouble might be that we’re defining happiness too narrowly - snobbish satisfaction and the sense of self-worth people get from seeing green glints of envy in other people’s eyes is a kind of happiness, too.

Comment #3: attack_laurel  on  03/31  at  11:28 AM

One of the big things that keeps me happy is going on walks in my neighborhood.  It is important to my own self esteem to get out and claim my right to move through my larger habitat.  I probably would never have discovered this if I had spent my whole life in the suburbs I grew up in.  The culture of fear is suffocating and its hard to free yourself from it when no one around you has. 

It sucks that the being in need of better planning and community life makes people more likely to be terrified of the very things they need.

Comment #4: semi_factual  on  03/31  at  11:29 AM

I hate my commute:  80 minutes, five days a week, where all I do is move a ton of metal 22 miles.  The public transportation alternative is roughly 3 hours each way: ie, not an alternative.  I can’t read.  I can’t do productive work.  I can’t pet my cat.  I can’t relax.  The only amelioration is listening to music.  Because my current job requires me to be in the office to communicate with an overseas office, I can’t set my hours to make that drive shorter—I’m stuck in the peak of the commute.

After I get to work, can take a while to wind down.  After I get home, it again takes time to wind down.

Comment #5: James  on  03/31  at  11:37 AM

No front yard and no sidewalks?  I can’t quite envision that, though I don’t doubt you.  I get annoyed at people who bought old Victorians in my former neighborhood—which were awesome b/c the lots were 1 1/2 the normal Chicago lot size—knock them down and build McMansions up to the property lines.  Part of the glory of that neighborhood was the yard size.

Part of that for me is that growing up in Indianapolis, everyone lived on about an acre.  The downtown hadn’t been revamped yet, so the whole city/county operated as a giant suburb with office parks and strip malls randomly placed through the cornfields and churches.  Chicago lots have always seemed itsy bitsy to me.

But it’s funny how suburbanites are afraid of the dangerous city.  If someone wants to rob me, they have to pick my building, get in, and then pick my unit and get in.  In the suburbs, there’s just the one choice—>that one.  Seems much scarier to me now.

Comment #6: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/31  at  11:42 AM

“People are willing and able to give away the joy of not sitting in traffic in order to avoid living in smaller apartments that seem less impressive than some of the big suburban homes…”

You forget that there is also the time spent on cramped subway cars (at least in NYC in my experience) to add to the “smaller apartments” side.  I didn’t really have a problem with it since I only experienced it on the ride home (went to work on the bus), but I’m sure it would have been trying if I had thinner skin.


“It won’t do anything to hurt them, and for a lot of them, it will have substantial benefits.”

Doesn’t it have the potential to hurt the nation due to its cost.  Everything is a trade-off, and saying “it won’t do anything to hurt them” goes too far.


“I could go on, but seriously, the package has a ton of goodies for these folks.  And yet they freak out.  Don’t they want to be happy?”

This is ignoring the costs of the program, which the teabaggers (to their credit) do not seem to be doing.  I would likely benefit from the program, and my girlfriend certainly would, but I also understand that it is hugely expensive, no matter what the Dems do to cover up those costs.

Comment #7: anoNY  on  03/31  at  11:42 AM

Per the other thread of projection with the liberals just don’t understand conservatives BS, I think this is one of the big differences (aside from the myriad of obvious including the projection) between conservatives and liberals (and I apologize for the awkwardness of this sentence).

That is to say, liberals do more or less value happiness and believe that happiness should be a goal mixed in with protections to make sure someone’s happiness doesn’t come at the expense of someone else’s basic humanity. That people should have the greatest freedom by which they can shift around their lives into what makes them happiest and so they can live their life closer to what they want.

Whereas conservatives are more obsessed about duty often to loosely defined religious entities beaten into them as children. They feel they owe “society”, “God”, or a loose understanding of themselves as entities of the race war or the proud male sex or etc… these totems of status and these sacrifices of actual happiness so that they can protect and uphold a hierarchy. They may believe that the payoff for this in the mortal realm will be some manner of happiness, but they’ll gladly squander happiness and turn away from everything that not only makes most people happy, but even that which makes them personally happy for the sake of “duty”. Even how they view the afterlife is based on hierarchy, status, and duty. They need to present their worthy place in the hierarchy so after they die, they will be rewarded with their duty by going to the more status-laden afterlife where they will live a life in complete duty to the “good” deity and stay in the “good part” of the afterlife. Heaven is just another suburb, still scrubbed of anything that makes them happy other than the chance possibility of seeing relatives who never made you very happy in life because they were as petty and judgmental as they were.

I’m probably not describing it the best, but this seems to be the main contention in the liberal and conservative approaches to life. Liberals want people to be free to express themselves and be happy and see those pursuits as what is important. Whereas conservatives are “sacrificing” themselves for some other invisible force for ill-defined benefits closely related to enforcing existing hierarchies.

I think the why comes out in the views of change. Those who fear change will be seduced into sacrificing happiness to protect what “is” just so they don’t have to think about what could be (likely reinforced every time they sacrifice real happiness for that and realize belatedly they didn’t have to, but too late now). Those who see change as a part of life are more easily able to say, “hey shouldn’t we all be using this to get a world where we can live easier and do more of what actually makes us happier?”

Comment #8: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  11:44 AM

Agreed - commuting by car is the third ring of hell. For the years that I had to do that I probably spent $300 per year on lottery tickets hoping to be permanently freed from the pain of driving to work.

So I’m definitely no apologist for the suburbs. BUT where I live, it is way more expensive to live in the city than in the suburbs. And now there’s some proof that us bus riders from the burbs are paying more for public transit than subway riding city dwellers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/28/AR2010032802897.html

(And forgive me if the link doesn’t work. Not so good at html codes.)

Comment #9: DC Fem  on  03/31  at  11:49 AM

“This is not surprising - in the US, the conservatives and libertarians value money and status over happiness (dirty liberal tree-hugging happiness!), and get their own twisted pleasure out of being on top of the heap.”

@ Laurel:  Libertarians value the freedom to pursue happiness how one wants to.  I’m sure some of them value money and status, but it is quite stupid to lump them all together in some general description when one of their core values is individualism.  I am sure many liberals and progressives also value money and status.

Comment #10: anoNY  on  03/31  at  11:50 AM

I think misery can become its own goal for a conservative.  One of my best friends is a staunch conservative(I grew-up next door to him) and he is stuck in a marriage he hates, with a couple of kids that he doesn’t seem to fond of; and he has said on several occasions “at least I am getting into heaven”.  As I usually tell him, “no, you are just getting an early start on hell”.

For some reason he seems to think being misreable is somehow honorable, and really it just makes him and his family unhappy.

Comment #11: John Rove  on  03/31  at  11:57 AM

This is ignoring the costs of the program, which the teabaggers (to their credit) do not seem to be doing.  I would likely benefit from the program, and my girlfriend certainly would, but I also understand that it is hugely expensive, no matter what the Dems do to cover up those costs.

Correct for where “hugely expensive” means “decreases the deficit” and “costs of the program” are never compared to costs of doing nothing.

Comment #12: acallidryas  on  03/31  at  11:59 AM

I think you are spot on about some people valuing other things more than happiness. My dad grew up in India, the eldest of many, many children.  There were several responsibilities (and perks) inherent to that role at that time (30’s). Growing up, I’d always hear him talking about duty, i.e. “you should go to the Gupta’s dinner because it’s your duty.”  To him, duty wasn’t a bad thing, but just something you did to keep family and community in order. But to me it smacked of being forced to do what you don’t want to. In the end, he’s a pretty happy guy (mostly because he is a kind, super easy going guy), but I think duty motivates him much more strongly than it does others, and he finds happiness arguments kind of incomprehensible. 

Meanwhile, I just visited a friend who lived out in the suburbs of Austin. I LOVE Austin, but this is NOT Austin.  It’s 30 minutes from everything, and my friend worried about her mortgage and expenses, never did any of the things she liked, never went out to eat, didn’t meet many people, and didn’t seem happy. IT was obvious her house was just a big millstone, but she chose it so she could get a giant, cheap, exurban monstrosity that had all the amenities she was used to.  It seemed illogical, but I think she couldn’t bear the thought of living in a smaller, more modest house but living just a few miles from the center of the city. The idea of “going down” in the world was just too much to bear.

In both of these cases, people were moved by something other than happiness. They even frame their arguments as “sure that would be nice, but we decided this thing would be better.” Not make them happier, per se, just be “better” on some amorphous scale. For my dad, the better is “less precarious or selfish,” and for my friend it’s “making sure I have a nice house.”

Comment #13: t-ster  on  03/31  at  12:03 PM

anoNY @8-

Well that shifts a bit once you have a country that really values extensive public transportation. I’m currently finishing out two years in Denmark and one of the most remarkable aspects is the Scandanavian approach to transportation. First of all cars, gasoline, and congestion pricing lower the amount of car travel immensely. To make up for that, bus lines sprawl throughout the city centers with many many lines of convergence, bus rights of way, 5 or more buses per hour for busy sections. These bus lines also sprawl way out into the surrounding suburb cities and farms.

I’m living currently in an industrial suburb city off the city of Aarhus and the buses that run out of Aarhus run through 4 times an hour and broader buses connecting some of the outlying suburbs to each other run a little less frequently. When I first came here, I grabbed as some emergency housing a farm house in the distant exurbs of the Aarhus sprawl, in a named “town” so small that no one in the city center had even heard of it or anything near it. A bus line within 15 minutes of walking came every other hour, another bus line that came more regularly (3 times an hour) was a relatively short bike ride (about 30 minutes) (and practically instantaneous car ride) away. And on top of that, there is an extensive railway system that ran on the main lines between major cities and big towns about once every hour and through some of the less traveled roads every 2-3 hours with several couple of day lines connecting in with the greater eurorail system, which also has stops relatively near some disconnected towns that aren’t close enough to jack in to any nearby city bus system. And on top of that there is a ferry between the top big landmasses of Denmark and a second bus line designed to connect between cities and towns that runs a couple of times a day that again connects to the greater European network.

We could have more extensive, less crowded, and more on-time public transportation in America if we actually valued it on the level that we value the bloated freeway system.

Not to mention the obvious, that many people would gladly take being sandwiched like sardines on public transportation than be stuck in traffic. At least sandwiched people can read or play a mini-game on their phone or just daydream. Being in traffic means you’re not only trapped, but have to keep your mind heavily energized in order to pay attention to the roadway and be able to move a couple of inches every minute or two. That combination by the simple physiology of the human brain will leave it highly strained, more so than under the stresses of the crush.

Comment #14: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  12:06 PM

Also, I’m commuting now (four trips of 1.5 hours a week) after years of not owning a car.  But I commute from the big city into another town, because my school is in a small town and I can’t bear the thought of living there and doing nothing during the week or driving in little trips to go everywhere.  So I’ve sucked it up and started driving because driving in two long spurts makes me happier than driving in little spurts everywhere.  But I feel guilty and know it’s making me cranky, and that I’ll only do it for a few more months.

Comment #15: t-ster  on  03/31  at  12:07 PM

Brooks doesn’t pivot from this into any real policy specifics.

Questioning the value of long commutes would also call into question Brooksie’s beloved “Bourgeois Bohemian” exurban paradise, populated by Boomers who maintain the superficial trappings of ‘60s progressivism while indulging in the consumerism and selfishness promoted by his neoCon masters.

This is not surprising - in the US, the conservatives and libertarians value money and status over happiness (dirty liberal tree-hugging happiness!), and get their own twisted pleasure out of being on top of the heap.

More to the point, Libertarians of all varieties tend to value the idea that there is an “Away” they can go to: lily-white exurbs, free-state movements, survivalist bunkers, ranches with prominent “trespassers will be shot” warnings, etc. Anyone with a lick of sense (i.e. liberals and most progressives) knows that there’s really been no such thing as “Away” in America since Frederick Jackson Turner put forward his thesis in 1893.

Not co-incidently, this is one of the reasons why the sweet spot for neoCons in the year 1895—the social conservatism their Know-Nothing marks love was still in effect, as was the last vestige of the idea that one could get “Away” from the bad people (immigrants, African-Americans, etc). Meanwhile, the reality was that robber barons were running rampant and workers were well-integrated into the industrial precursor of the Human Resources/4th Purpose Culture.

Comment #16: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  12:07 PM

“Correct for where “hugely expensive” means “decreases the deficit” and “costs of the program” are never compared to costs of doing nothing.”

/snark Correct for where “decreases the deficit” means “decreases the deficit when 10 years of revenue funds 6 years of benefits, and requires changes to reimbursement rates that have been planned before and have never happened, AND requires savings due to waste in another program run by the same government.” \snark

Cute response, but even you must know that expanding any social program will increase costs somewhere.  I agree that there are costs to doing nothing, I am just pointing out that there are trade-offs involved, and the teabaggers seem aware of that.

Comment #17: anoNY  on  03/31  at  12:07 PM

Being in traffic means you’re not only trapped, but have to keep your mind heavily energized in order to pay attention to the roadway and be able to move a couple of inches every minute or two.

I haven’t commuted by car every since I moved to NYC in 1993, and continued that habit after I moved away to another city with good public transit. I have and maintain a license, but don’t own a car or drive one unless I have no choice (e.g. visiting L.A.). Not driving on a regular basis on a road system designed and run according to what Jane Jacobs correctly characterises as the pseudo-science of traffic engineering is a major contributing factor to my personal happiness.

Comment #18: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  12:15 PM

@ Cerberus16:  I agree that some folks (myself among them) prefer the subway to the car, but isn’t it asking a bit much for the US, a hugely spread-out country, to develop a Scandinavian-style public transportation system?  Could that kind of thing work?  I admit that I do not know how spread out Denmark is.  Also, some folks would still prefer to have the “anytime” convenience of a car, along with the ability to easily transport “stuff” in that car.  Perhaps once everyone has all-electric cars we won’t worry about building up an incredibly expensive rail system.

Comment #19: anoNY  on  03/31  at  12:17 PM

Ahh, what would a week be without the mandatory “scum sucking evil suburban peoples” post!
Almost like a day without prune juice.
I hate to clue you in, but you still can get away from the bad people. Just takes a little planning.

Comment #20: ayutokamina  on  03/31  at  12:21 PM

“More to the point, Libertarians of all varieties tend to value the idea that there is an “Away” they can go to: lily-white exurbs, free-state movements, survivalist bunkers, ranches with prominent “trespassers will be shot” warnings, etc. “

Not quite sure what this means.  Are you saying that libertarians DO in fact value happiness over money and status, even if the happiness they seek is illusory?  Libertarians do tend to value having their own property, something I’m sure many liberals also value. 

Oh, and the Free State project is about exercising political power in accordance with the current rules (elections).  It is not nearly as *frightening* as those survivalist bunkers you mentioned!

Comment #21: anoNY  on  03/31  at  12:26 PM

Amanda, it isn’t the absence of a front yard that determine neighborliness - it’s the porch.  (And yes, studies show that).  Putting a house closer to the sidewalk actually encourages visiting. (again, studies reinforce this)  Blame legally required setbacks for the lack of neighborliness.  If you want to blame something,  blame the absence of the front porch (or it’s reduction to decoration) and the proliferation of the deck. 

And Cerberus - wait ‘til you get back to the US.  Being stuck in traffic, to many, now means time to do laptop work and text, which means more accidents, which means a longer commute time which means more texting…..

Comment #22: phylosopher  on  03/31  at  12:29 PM

My dad grew up in India, the eldest of many, many children.  There were several responsibilities (and perks) inherent to that role at that time (30’s). Growing up, I’d always hear him talking about duty, i.e. “you should go to the Gupta’s dinner because it’s your duty.” To him, duty wasn’t a bad thing, but just something you did to keep family and community in order.

My Parsi ex-wife had the following couplet from Tagore drilled into her in childhood: “I slept and dreamt that life was beauty. I woke and found that life is duty.”

Comment #23: Steve LaBonne  on  03/31  at  12:30 PM

Steve LaBonne,

Oh God, Tagore!! You have no idea how many Robindrasangeets I had to suffer through as a child.  I didn’t know that Parsis were into him though…

Comment #24: t-ster  on  03/31  at  12:34 PM

Not quite sure what this means.

I’m saying that the Libertarian mindset value the bogus notion of “Away” as a key to happiness. I included everything from survivalist bunkers to the Free State project (and would add the private islands of truly wealthy Libertarian types) because there’s a common thread here.

Are you saying that libertarians DO in fact value happiness over money and status, even if the happiness they seek is illusory?

The bogus dream of “away” is very wrapped up in money and status. If that concept confuses you, I’d advise you to look at how everything from private islands to gated communities to “prepper” kits are marketed. And I don’t think that the “ideal” version Free State is gonna have a lot of room for people who aren’t wealthy enough to pay for everything from private schools to pothole maintenance on the street where their McMansion sits.

Oh, and the Free State project is about exercising political power in accordance with the current rules (elections).

I’m not talking about means for pushing the project forward (i.e. elections), I’m talking about the project’s base motives (i.e. getting “away” from those minority welfare queens who drain our precious profits). Not that there won’t be corporate welfare, but corporations can do no wrong.

Comment #25: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  12:37 PM

but you still can get away from the bad people.

Don’t I know it. Living in a big city means I almost never have to meet people like you in person. grin

Comment #26: Well, what?  on  03/31  at  12:37 PM

#23

Not quite sure what this means.  Are you saying that libertarians DO in fact value happiness over money and status, even if the happiness they seek is illusory?  Libertarians do tend to value having their own property, something I’m sure many liberals also value.

I think the point is that libertarianism still has the smell of religion and “duty” about it, as it essentially posits that the individual should cut themselves off from a sinful society, using weapons and high-tech defenses if necessary, lest they become contaminated by the “collectivism” of this fallen world. It does not seem to me anyhow, that most people would or could be very happy while carrying out the libertarian plan. To me, libertarianism seems too much like a religion, complete with mortification of the flesh, to truly be on the side of earthly happiness. But your milage may vary.

Comment #27: atheist  on  03/31  at  12:38 PM

I mean, check out ayutokamina, who clearly subscribes to this Libertarian mindset with the bitterly earnest statement:

I hate to clue you in, but you still can get away from the bad people. Just takes a little planning.

Who needs parody when you have a real-life illustration.

Comment #28: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  12:38 PM

phylosopher @24

Which is why I’m so grateful that I’ll be moving back to the one city in America that has a functional, extensive, well-oiled public transportation machine. Ah, San Fran, shine on you wannabe European diamond (ok, technically Alameda, but the BART, ferry, etc… means I’m pretty connected to the San Fran grid).

Comment #29: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  12:39 PM

when 10 years of revenue funds 6 years of benefits

Except that’s a flat-out lie.

/trollfeed

Comment #30: Dan  on  03/31  at  12:40 PM

Cute response, but even you must know that expanding any social program will increase costs somewhere.

This is willfully ignorant.  It’s been fairly conclusively established that one of the main costs in our system is the tremendous effort insurance companies go to in order to avoid paying claims; any regulation which decreases this will realize a massive cost savings from decreased waste.

Now, I do agree that decreased waste during a time of 10% unemployment is a double-edged sword.  But we gotta start sometime.

Comment #31: Punditus Maximus  on  03/31  at  12:41 PM

I haven’t commuted by car every since I moved to NYC in 1993, and continued that habit after I moved away to another city with good public transit.

Ah, how I miss the subway!  Luckily, I currently have a 20 minute walk or 4 minute drive to work.  But I do miss being able to go anywhere in Manhattan relatively quickly.  The first time I took the subway (from W4 to the cloisters) I thought to myself - this is almost as good as a transporter from Star Trek.

I agree that some folks (myself among them) prefer the subway to the car, but isn’t it asking a bit much for the US, a hugely spread-out country, to develop a Scandinavian-style public transportation system?

anoNY: who said we have to live so spread out?  In fact, if we had not so heavily subsidized a superhighway system we would not be spreading out so much.  We could mostly live in cities like Boston or New York or small walkable towns and cities like we have in New England/Upstate New York.  And as we run out of oil, being so spread out will no longer be economically feasible. The middle class will not be able to afford to live in exurbs and commute to a distant workplace.

Me?  I like the anytime convenience of being able to walk out of my building, walk a few blocks downtown and have access to all of the activities and shopping I need.  No gas, no parking hassles.  That is true freedom.  The car gives an illusory sense of freedom.

Comment #32: Richard Goblin  on  03/31  at  12:42 PM

I agree that some folks (myself among them) prefer the subway to the car, but isn’t it asking a bit much for the US, a hugely spread-out country, to develop a Scandinavian-style public transportation system?

It’s a different geography, but the realities of limited energy resources mean that it’s going to have to change. The focus will probably be on building up urban and near-urban (i.e. older suburbs) public transport infrastructure on a city-by-city basis, combined with the long-haul high-speed passenger rail they’re already discussing. This comes too late and should have started decades ago, but the car culture and the desire to live in some illusory “away” has stymied it.

Also, some folks would still prefer to have the “anytime” convenience of a car, along with the ability to easily transport “stuff” in that car.

Walkable cities and towns (whether legacy urban areas or purpose-designed New Urbanist suburbs) go a long way toward eliminating the need for that “anytime” convenience. Practises like European-style grocery shopping (i.e. doing a little every day, carrying one or two bags) at markets close to home or work also helps with the transport problem. Finally, there are companies like Zipcar that combine situational car-sharing with a for-profit rental/subscription model when larger loads need to be transported.

But I’ll agree that all that is up against a serious cultural barrier that has managed to conflate rugged individualism with conspicuous consumption.

Comment #33: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  12:48 PM

Most people I know with horrible, rather than bothersome, commutes all bought homes and then changed companies/jobs (due to lay offs mostly or worsening working conditions related to those) or transferred jobs within companies (often not voluntarily) to locations farther from home.  The others almost all have a spouse who works close to where they live.
I was trasfered from one center to another, but that put me closer to home.  My spouse works one town over from home.  I could actually get from my small city downtown to within 0.5 mi of my primary work location via public transit
- BUT that would be via commuter rail, using two different lines that only transfer at end of line, would require a much shorter drinen commute that would use much more gas per mile, would require paying for parking, would make it impossible for me to go to other comapny locations where I sometimes must attend meetings.  Public transit would cost more and take far longer than my 28 mile each way round trip.
Because I can flex my time slightly and sometimes can telecommute (yeah!), the driving isn’t that bad for me.

Comment #34: helen w. h.  on  03/31  at  12:51 PM

I have to say that there are pretty annoying things about the bus situation here in Seattle but I wouldn’t trade it for the BFs commute on 520 over the lake (with the techie people) every weekday.
The main annoying thing is having to share the bus with LOUD high school kids in the morning. Nothing like a reminder that you’re up too early after having one too many glasses of wine than kids YELLING about this that or the other at 7:20 am. heh heh At least it’s only for about 8 blocks so whatever. Makes me appreciate summer in the way that I’m sure parents appreciate fall-spring.
After commuting by bus for the 12 years I’ve lived in Seattle I don’t think that I could commute by car as easily or at all. I would really miss my reading, listening to music, knitting or playing iPod mah jongg too much. It’s just a nice bit of brain free time (despite the rather crowded conditions sometimes) that you get before the stress of the workday.
I don’t live too close to downtown here but each neighborhood in Seattle has thing mostly within walking distance anyhow so I’d say that I buy a tank of gas about once every 2 months or so.

Comment #35: Danica Lefse Queen  on  03/31  at  12:57 PM

“(and would add the private islands of truly wealthy Libertarian types)”

Such as…..who?


“The bogus dream of “away” is very wrapped up in money and status. If that concept confuses you, I’d advise you to look at how everything from private islands to gated communities to “prepper” kits are marketed.”

I think you are quite wrong to assume that only libertarians would want a private island.  Here is a list of some famous “libertarians” who do in fact own these islands!  http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/443909/celebrities_who_own_islands_a_list.html?cat=54

Yep, Lenny Kravitz is quite the dogmatic, isn’t he?

Can we please stop acting like libertarians are the only people on earth who would ever want a nice house (or an island)?


As to the Free State project, one of the reasons for libertarians to move is to avoid the current levels of corporate welfare we already have, not to create more!

Comment #36: anoNY  on  03/31  at  01:00 PM

anoNY @21

Ooh, implementation, exciting.

Okay, first of all, implementation would to be functional require massive, and I’m talking New Deal level of infrastructure investment and a slow shift from how we spend our money and even how we run our trains (right now, industrial trains trump passenger trains on all lines which makes city to city very slow). So on whether or not NIMBY makes America wholly unwilling to pay for something for “other people” who include them especially when we have so much psychosexual baggage about cars as a mark of status and male penis, the likelihood that we’d do it even if it were plausible is highly unlikely.

That said, it is possible and plausible for America to be networked. Yeah, it’s spread out, but think of an organism like say all of Europe. There is extensive rail network criss-crossing the continent providing a strong alternative to freeways and flights for medium and long city to city travel and makes it the de facto number one for short range city to city travel. It is backed up by every country having an extensive long-range bus system and heavy fines on gas and cars to discourage car congestion. Even the baltic states and Eastern European states which have less extensive rail make up for it with a very extensive bus system that runs several times per day city to city.

That’s backed up by each city center having its own extensive bus system and the larger cities with the most sprawl having extensive subway systems to alleviate the congestion which runs in accordance with load and usage rather than budget cuts (though sometimes admittedly without air-conditioning or cleaning crews to wash off graffiti). And each of these systems inter-connect. When I traveled to Barcelona, my hostel was actually in a neighboring town deep in the mountains, but one still connected by rapid subway travel to the city center that ran about 3-4 times per hour. If I wanted to go deeper into the countryside, the city center bus lines connected towns and cities to each other or the Spanish rail-system could connect me to further destinations that connected by bus or subway.

So that’s a lot of Europe and a lot of small towns in Europe still plugged into the system. Given that most of America is spread out but operates from similar urban centers/ring of exurban smaller towns/far out small towns, it makes sense that a similar system could grow and operate and indeed up to as late as the 1950s, that was the case, with the train being the most used method of traveling into most cities for work.

As a further point, I used to live in SoCal, land of the endless sprawl, land of the 95 lane freeways, box stores, and cars as status symbols. And in San Diego where I lived, they had extended their poorly designed trolley system slightly further into the suburbs (connecting yet another mall, because everyone wants to use a public transportation system that can pretty much only take you to malls, yeah, well planned) and installed a system called Park and Ride where there was a cheap parking lot you could use to take the trolley deeper in.

It was a smash hit, becoming the key place to go for sporting events and even the big conventions. You could avoid the traffic tangle downtown or near the stadium and just drive your status symbol to the lot and ride in comfort the rest of the way. Imagine the usage those lots could have had if the trolley had a line that ran down the big industrial work centers instead of the malls that usually used local underpaid workers who don’t always have their own cars? The sheer cutdown on freeway hours used by each car and how that would lower overall congestion?

So I think people can be coaxed to using it if it is seen on the line from where they (i.e. the white suburban car-statusians) live and where they work (i.e. the middle class status jobs in soul-crushing HR culture companies).

But yeah, the trick is getting people to support it even though “it may fund brown people’s ability to travel without the cock-mobile” and “it decreases the centrality of my cock-mobile to the greater culture”. Those are two issues I don’t see the dominant American culture letting go of without a fight.

Comment #37: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  01:04 PM

There is a definite strain of resentment of conservatives angrily demanding that liberals stop being so damn concerned about being happy. You can see it in their breathless condemnation of people who choose to wait to get married, or choose not to do so at all. you can hear it in their rush to condemn any zoning changes that reflect liberal preferences, rather than their own preferences/demands. It comes through when it turns out that conservatives are always the first ones to condemn “anti-bullying/harrasment” programs at schools. You see it in the low priorities they put on maintaining a core group of friends in their community and how they mock those who maintain a social life (those comments over at Dennis the Peasant’s blog linked to above are telling).

I don’t think we should necessarily drag libertarians into this: most libertarians are just a few people with middling intellects angry that the world does not acknowledge their genius: their role in this is mostly resentment that libetaks’ pursuit of happiness does not include spending their time praising them and their life choices or ensuring that the country reflects their preferred lifestyle. They’re too narcissistic to get resentful that people like to enjoy their lives.

Comment #38: Tyro  on  03/31  at  01:08 PM

Gracchus @20:
Traffic engineering is a branch of transportation engineering within civil engineering and is not pseudo-science.  It is unfortunately constantly constrained by politicians and property owners and various public busibodies (usually of the NIMBY variety) who have no understanding of the math, physics and technology involved to create transport systems that actually work.  Try blaming the right people.

Comment #39: helen w. h.  on  03/31  at  01:09 PM

@Richard34

I agree that walking around is very convenient, but the majority of the country is not set up to make the transition to that kind of lifestyle.  That would require mass relocation, all to make people more happy (at least in theory). 

“And as we run out of oil, being so spread out will no longer be economically feasible. The middle class will not be able to afford to live in exurbs and commute to a distant workplace”

One way or another the country needs energy reform.  I think that eventually electric vehicles will replace gas, and we can live how we want, whether in urban centers or suburbs.

Comment #40: anoNY  on  03/31  at  01:12 PM

Below self-interest there is something much stranger called self-love and everyone is its puppet.

Well, to paraphrase Einstein, the ego is an illusion, albeit a convincing one.

Exhibt A, realitybeam.

The trouble might be that we’re defining happiness too narrowly - snobbish satisfaction and the sense of self-worth people get from seeing green glints of envy in other people’s eyes is a kind of happiness, too.

A few years back, my wife told me about one of her fellow Filipinos who lived on the fashionable west side of town who heard that one of her neighbors got a big-screen TV.  In response she bought the biggest TV they had at a local store, only to have to have it sent back, because it wouldn’t fit through any of the doors.

She had to settle for the second-biggest TV instead.

No front yard and no sidewalks?  I can’t quite envision that, though I don’t doubt you.

In Studio City, CA, I was surprised to see that the neighborhood I was visiting with a girlfriend at the time had nothing but a thin concrete curb separating the front yard from the street.  This was a house that was literally a 2-minute walk from the main drag, but it was assumed that you’d be driving anywhere you needed/wanted to go. This wasn’t a new neighborhood, it was probably build post-WW-II.

But it’s funny how suburbanites are afraid of the dangerous city.

Here in the countryside of southeastern Tulare County, CA,  it’s well known that you shouldn’t keep anything of value in your house unguarded, as it was a practice of criminals to wait and watch certain houses until the family left for some occasion and then burgle their target. It was taken for granted that the residents wouldn’t be back for at least an hour or so because that’s the round-trip time to any cities of any significance, like for Sunday church, etc.

For some reason he seems to think being misreable is somehow honorable, and really it just makes him and his family unhappy.

Is he Catholic?  Mom used to refer to her uncles’ wife as his “ticket to heaven”, so it’s a common theological concept.

t-ster, there is a similar concept in Chinese culture about “face”, which is how you present yourself in public and your relations to and with your family. 

The term face may be defined as the positive social value a person effectively claims for himself by the line others assume he has taken during a particular contact. Face is an image of self delineated in terms of approved social attributes. (Goffman 1955:213)
Face is the respectability and/or deference which a person can claim for himself from others, by virtue of the relative position he occupies in his social network and the degree to which he is judged to have functioned adequately in that position as well as acceptably in his general conduct. (Ho 1975:883)
[Face] is something that is emotionally invested, and that can be lost, maintained, or enhanced, and must be constantly attended to in interaction. In general, people cooperate (and assume each other’s cooperation) in maintaining face in interaction, such cooperation being based on the mutual vulnerability of face. (Brown and Levinson 1978:66)
Face is a sense of worth that comes from knowing one’s status and reflects concern with the congruency between one’s performance or appearance and one’s real worth. (Huang 1987:71)
“Face” means ‘sociodynamic valuation’, a lexical hyponym of words meaning ‘prestige; dignity; honor; respect; status’. (Carr 1993:90)

Face(sociological concept)

Comment #41: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  03/31  at  01:14 PM

#40, good point.

Comment #42: atheist  on  03/31  at  01:14 PM

Such as…..who?

The people who visit this site, amongst others.

I think you are quite wrong to assume that only libertarians would want a private island.

That would be relevant if I was making that assumption. I’m not saying that “only libertarians would want a private island,” I’m saying that the Libertarian mindset finds the idea of having a private island or the some affordable equivalent “away” from all the “bad people” particularly appealing.

What you’re engaging here is a fallacious syllogism. For example, when I state that all men are mortal and that Socrates is a man, I’m not saying that all men are Socrates.

Similarly, when I say that the Libertarian mindset cherishes the bogus dream of getting away to a private island free of “bad people” (pace ayutokamina), and then say that Lenny Kravitz owns a private island, I’m saying neither that Kravitz is a Libertarian nor that all Libertarians are Lenny Kravitz.

Comment #43: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  01:16 PM

anonNY, “America is too stupid and incompetent for living styles to accommodate anything but my prefered way of life” is not a compelling argument.

Comment #44: Tyro  on  03/31  at  01:18 PM

We chose a house close to hubby’s work over 20 years ago. Ironically, I really wished for a rural life, but have gotten accustomed to the very family-friendly suburb we live in, with access to good rapid-transit lines around the SF area. I admit being close to his work has been a huge plus for the entire family.

My husband didn’t last a year in a different job which had >1 hour commute. It was a living hell for all of us, and he’s back working 10 minutes from home.

That said, I find that audio books and studying a language have greatly improved the quality of the considerable time I sometimes have to spend in traffic. They keep my mind focused on Jane Austen/ Japanese grammar/ whatever and the traffic just fades to an incidental part of my life rather than the main focus. Others’ mileage may vary.

Nothing to say re Mr. Brooks, as it’s been said eloquently above.

Comment #45: means are the ends  on  03/31  at  01:18 PM

This is kind of unrelated. Sorry about that.

Does anyone else here listen to audiobooks or podcasts on their commute? It’s an absolute life-saver, I can assure you. I take public transit everywhere, personally, but my commute is still annoying (especially when there are unexpected delays). I know people who commute by car who love them, too.

SO OFTEN I hear people whining, “I’d love to read more, but I just don’t have time.” That’s so silly!! You DO have the time—when you are driving in your car or riding the train or bus. I tend to enjoy audiobooks even more than reading a book because hearing someone read something well can bring new life to a story.

I listened to all of Sherlock Holmes on audiobook and then the entire A Song of Ice and Fire series (well, the books of the series that have been released thus far, at least). SO AWESOME. It got to the point where I couldn’t wait to leave for work just so that I could listen to more of the book(s)! I actually started having a happy, positive association with commuting or even just standing in the rain waiting for the train to show, simply because I was listening to something awesome. It probably seems impossible that your commute could be exciting and fun, but if you’re listening to an awesome action story or hilarious thing, then, magic happens.

So, yeah, I recommend this solution to basically everyone ever. I don’t understand why more people haven’t discovered this wonderful secret towards making a commute (or any long wait by yourself) much more bearable.

Comment #46: Samus  on  03/31  at  01:19 PM

Traffic engineering is a branch of transportation engineering within civil engineering and is not pseudo-science.  It is unfortunately constantly constrained by politicians and property owners and various public busibodies (usually of the NIMBY variety) who have no understanding of the math, physics and technology involved to create transport systems that actually work.  Try blaming the right people.

You’re correct about the constraints, but read Jane Jacobs’ Dark Age Ahead. She describes the confirmation-bias mindsets and ad hoc practises that separate out traffic engineering from civil engineering and even transportation engineering.

Comment #47: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  01:21 PM

anonNY, “America is too stupid and incompetent for living styles to accommodate anything but my prefered way of life” is not a compelling argument.

It is if you think you’re the kind of special snowflake genius who can manage to get away from the stupid and incompetent and scale down an unsustainable consumer lifestyle to your household or a Free State or the like.

Comment #48: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  01:24 PM

“I don’t think we should necessarily drag libertarians into this: most libertarians are just a few people with middling intellects angry that the world does not acknowledge their genius: their role in this is mostly resentment that libetaks’ pursuit of happiness does not include spending their time praising them and their life choices or ensuring that the country reflects their preferred lifestyle. They’re too narcissistic to get resentful that people like to enjoy their lives.”

Aren’t many commenters on this post expressing resentment that America does not acknowledge their superiority when it comes to geographical living preferences and other lifestyle choices?  I would say that the libertarian would welcome other people enjoying their lives however they see fit, so long as the others did not interfere with the libertarian enjoying his or hers.

The above comment is just an insult, I think it reveals something about its author.

Comment #49: anoNY  on  03/31  at  01:27 PM

But it’s funny how suburbanites are afraid of the dangerous city.  If someone wants to rob me, they have to pick my building, get in, and then pick my unit and get in.  In the suburbs, there’s just the one choice—>that one.  Seems much scarier to me now.

I don’t know about the USA, but around here whenever we have an epidemic of home invasions, it’s always in the suburbs (Laval, Longueuil, etc). Not Montreal proper. If you were an home invader trying to score big money, would you rather drive to the burbs with its self-selected middle class and above population and houses all isolated from each other, or try your luck in an economically diverse city where every apartment is within earshot of at least five people?

I don’t know why people think the burbs or small towns would be safer. Sure there’s more murders in Montreal… there’s more people! When a murder happens in a burb or a small town, it’s big news because it doesn’t happen that often, but if you were to normalize for population you end up still being more likely to be killed or mugged in a small town (*someone* is bound to get attacked each day in a big city… that someone is still very unlikely to be you). Hell, at least in Montreal I never get hassled by a pickup truck full of 20 somethings who follow me around calling me a frog faggot and telling me they’ll beat me up because they heard me talk French to a cashier and I’m from outside of town (which is one type of crime that small towns disproportionally have… but I guess if you’re one of the Elect who decided to live there, you don’t have to fear the Welcoming Commitee).

Comment #50: BlackBloc  on  03/31  at  01:27 PM

Does anyone else here listen to audiobooks or podcasts on their commute?

I do, and agree wholeheartedly with your comment.

Comment #51: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  01:29 PM

Time is an element of happiness that people don’t understand. That is, when people buy the big suburban house with the yard, church, softball league and trade off for the high paying job in a distant city they think they “get” all the goodies without paying a price.  And they may well be very happy in their new home/community. Its just that they have implicitly accepted that the part of their life that is spent there is very limited in time to an hour or so before bed, and an hour in the morning.  Suburban working moms spend a ton of time driving (I do too, and I’m in a city) their children from place to place as well as commuting to work.  Watching their kids basketball games, or whatever, is a pleasure—a real pleasure—as are other community events. But time, distance, and the work world hack away at those moments and reduce them to chores instead of a natural part of everyday life.  And people accept that because, I think, they can’t really grasp that it could be any other way. Or perhaps they cant grasp in advance of purchasing the house that it will be that way.  People imagine they “get” the yard but they forget the hours of gardening time that goes in to making the place available for a family barbecue. And then they discover that they don’t have time for the family barbecue because of the transit time for all involved to get in and out of the city for work.

I think people evaluate their decisions about living in the same way they plan their lives. I read a study a year or so ago that argued that people always assume they will have more free time in the future than they do in the present so tha tthey readily agree to “have lunch” with someone or “go to a play” if its three months off without checking their calendars today and seeing that they have no free time now. In fact, in three months, their calendars will be similarly booked. In the same way they imagine that life in the suburbs will be just like in the movies—they discount the transit time necessary to get in and out, or the cost in time and expense of driving everywhere, and they sort of imagine themselves as figures occupying a “house” landscape, a “garden” landscape and a “work” landscape that dont really exist.

aimai

Comment #52: aimai  on  03/31  at  01:30 PM

“I’m not saying that “only libertarians would want a private island,” I’m saying that the Libertarian mindset finds the idea of having a private island or the some affordable equivalent “away” from all the “bad people” particularly appealing.”

But you are not saying why a libertarian would find it “particularly” appealing, though you claim just that.  If you think owning an island says something about its owner, then say so.  Just remember that libertarians are not the only people who own islands (and none of the libertarian-leaning people I know own one).

Comment #53: anoNY  on  03/31  at  01:31 PM

Aren’t many commenters on this post expressing resentment that America does not acknowledge their superiority when it comes to geographical living preferences and other lifestyle choices?

No, they’re commenting on the unsustainability of certain geographical living preferences, the illusory nature of their benefits, and the impact the consequences of those preferences (i.e. long commutes in heavy automobile traffic) have on stress and happiness levels.

Comment #54: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  01:34 PM

““America is too stupid and incompetent for living styles to accommodate anything but my prefered way of life” is not a compelling argument. “

I don’t understand why this was directed at me, but I agree.  I am not interested in forcing others to conform to my living style.

Comment #55: anoNY  on  03/31  at  01:36 PM

It is possible that Greater Boston is structured differently than other metro areas, but living in the city itself doesn’t necessarily mean a shorter commute, and for a lot of people, is unaffordable.  If I were willing to buy a car and move to a neighboring suburb, I could probably shave half an hour off of my commute, and $500 off of my rent.  Living in Boston proper offers other perks that make it worth the drawbacks, primarily that I consider 90 minutes traveled by train and bicycle twice a day preferable over one hour by car, but a lot of people can’t afford the time or money.  I am sure some people move to the suburbs because they fear the city, but I think most have valid reasons other than being too stupid to realize that, duh, city > burbs. 

I mean, when you’re talking about suburbanites, you’re either talking about people who just can’t afford to live in the city, or people who would drive the cost of living up, thereby pushing other people out. I don’t see what is accomplished by telling members of these two groups to abandon the suburbs and move to the city.  We need to make the suburbs themselves more sustainable and social places to live.

Comment #56: mamram  on  03/31  at  01:36 PM

BTW, regarding economically diverse cities: I’m pretty sure that’s the main issue leading to the exurb flight. While a lot of it is based in White Flight, I’m pretty sure the concept can be generalized to class segregation and not only racial segregation. People don’t want to live near poorer people. The point of being wealthy is status, and you don’t get status by rubbing elbows with the hoi polloi. Concerns about ‘crime’ are similarly as much about class than about race. In suburbs and small towns, there are homeless people. They just have the ‘decency’ to live in tents outside of town or something, and not being so rude as being visible and poor.

Comment #57: BlackBloc  on  03/31  at  01:37 PM

But you are not saying why a libertarian would find it “particularly” appealing, though you claim just that.

 

Read again: they find it particularly appealing because they’re more in love than non-Libertarians are with the illusory dream of getting “away” from the “bad people.” Other people buy private islands for other reasons.

If you think owning an island says something about its owner, then say so. Just remember that libertarians are not the only people who own islands (and none of the libertarian-leaning people I know own one).

Again with the fallacious syllogism. Shall I call you “Socrates” (which happens to be my name, and the name of every other human being)?

Comment #58: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  01:38 PM

“No, they’re commenting on the unsustainability of certain geographical living preferences, the illusory nature of their benefits, and the impact the consequences of those preferences (i.e. long commutes in heavy automobile traffic) have on stress and happiness levels.”

For one, the “illusory nature” of the benefits and the impact of the preferences is very subjective.  It depends on what aspects of transportation (convenience, carry capacity, stress, etc) someone values the most.  Some commenters want to force people to change their ways to what the commenters prefer, which I labeled as “acknowleding their superiority” to make a rhetorical point. 

Whether or not the current system is unsustainable, it will be changing over the next X years due to rising fuel costs and advances in energy.  I agree that fossil fuel-powered autos are on the way out as costs rise, and I am quite alright with that.  However, once cars are electric, what would be unsustainable about the suburbs?

Comment #59: anoNY  on  03/31  at  01:42 PM

@ Gracchus

I guess I just don’t see the connection between wanting an island and wanting to get away from some specific “bad people.”  Why can’t it just be that they want to get away from everyone, like other island owners?  Saying that they want to get away doesn’t necessarily lead to any conclusion about what they want to get away from.

Comment #60: anoNY  on  03/31  at  01:53 PM

For one, the “illusory nature” of the benefits and the impact of the preferences is very subjective.

Sorry to break it to you, but in the developed West ca. 2010 there is no “away.”

Some commenters want to force people to change their ways to what the commenters prefer, which I labeled as “acknowleding their superiority” to make a rhetorical point.

Your rhetorical point is empty and gratuitous. No-one’s talking about forcing people to change their ways or claiming moral superiority for living in a city. They’re talking about the fact that circumstances will dictate that they’ll be forced to change their ways, that they should have changed their ways a long time ago, and then discuss the conservative and Libertarian cultural streaks that kept it from changing.

Whether or not the current system is unsustainable, it will be changing over the next X years due to rising fuel costs and advances in energy.  I agree that fossil fuel-powered autos are on the way out as costs rise, and I am quite alright with that.  However, once cars are electric, what would be unsustainable about the suburbs?

Read up on things like water rights ownership, and you’ll see what’s unsustainable in much of the western U.S.‘s exurbs. Read up on consolidation trends in American retail and you’ll see what’s unsustainable about the economics of the exurbs. Read up on anti-tax initiatives in an aging society and you’ll see what’s unsustainable in the public infrastructure and services funding of the exurbs. Read up on the history of Sundown Towns, then look at remote gated communities with euphemistically named covenants and consider the unsustainability more of them in the context of the American nation’s unity and sense of shared purpose.

Some of these things can be fixed or retro-fitted, but they’ll need a major cultural and economic shift to happen. At this point, any such shifts will occur under major duress, with some ugly side effects.

Comment #61: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  01:55 PM

Uh, anoNY, I don’t really think American exceptionalism is valid in regards to America being too “foreign” in its sprawl to support public transportation. Look at Europe from the air and its city centers are spread out from each other, look at Eastern Europe where this function is advanced and there are also severe economic disadvantages. They still manage to have a very functional public transportation grid without running into the American problems. And this is even true even in massively dysfunctional political cultures such as the Czech Republic (they have nazis and open soviets running against each other and the current PM is a crazed libertarian who denies evolution and climate change, up to and including running his own institute to try and “disprove” them, but their trains run on time and more frequently than Denmark). Seriously, my Czech friend complained about having to wait 15-20 minutes for a bus, because he was used to every 10 minute service even in the exurbs.

I think a public transportation could easily plug into our system and overtake it and I gave an example about how making the system actually useful for the very type of white, middle class douchebags who are willing to run to the suburbs to avoid brown people will also reduce the length traveled by cars.

The BART is another great example of this. A lot of people drive their cars or take a bus to the nearest BART station and travel in the rest of the way, not enough to stop the congestion, but enough so as to alleviate it partially. More, reliable systems will be used and reduce the number of people relying on wasteful (by space consumed) cars.

America isn’t so far gone from public transportation grids that it can’t be repaired. Even upper middle class people relied on the grid up to and including the early 60s and yes, from the suburbs (see Man in a Grey Flannel Suit). Furthermore, most of our cities are still built on this city center/surrounding exurbs model that can rely on the model I described in earlier posts for smaller cities and towns and the model seen in larger cities like Barcelona and Copenhagen or Stockholm for larger sprawling cities like NY, LA, or SD.

You could even have a sort of compromise system like is starting to be implemented in several American cities and I described above where you create some lines connecting major sites of employment to major sites of middle class housing and have connected parking lots up and down the line for people to drive to.

Eventually though, we will just end up having to connect major public transportation lines throughout where people are living. See Europe. There are a number of people living in towns with less than a 100 people living in them that have multiple bus lines passing through. On the bus line I used when I lived in the exurban farmhouse, one town the bus passed through had by my estimation 20-30 houses. It had two bus lines passing through it, which could be stopped at any point down the line for people like me who didn’t live close to any scheduled stops. I just flagged the bus or told the bus driver to let me off and boom, easy as pie.

Given the number of people who live in densely compacted pseudo-villages in the suburbs (pseudo-villages which all somehow manage to have school buses running to and through them to the nearest schools), one should be able to have adult line buses connecting between them to pseudo-city-centers which connect by rail to other pseudo-city-centers or high-industrial or business centers. And that’s without asking a single suburban to move out of the sprawl.

Comment #62: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  01:56 PM

@anoNY:

I’m sorry, but you’re confirming Gracchus’s point about unexamined assumptions driving libertarian preferences.

Comment #63: Punditus Maximus  on  03/31  at  02:00 PM

“I think a public transportation could easily plug into our system and overtake it and I gave an example about how making the system actually useful for the very type of white, middle class douchebags who are willing to run to the suburbs to avoid brown people will also reduce the length traveled by cars. “

Can we just replace existing cars with electric versions of them and save the cost of building a rail system or having more busses?

Comment #64: anoNY  on  03/31  at  02:01 PM

I guess I just don’t see the connection between wanting an island and wanting to get away from some specific “bad people.”

Perhaps ayutokamina can enlighten you. I’m sure he’d love an island free of feminists, atheists, libruls, and other “bad people.” I’m sure he’d also identify as an economic Libertarian.

Why can’t it just be that they want to get away from everyone, like other island owners?

Let’s put it this way: Lenny Kravitz, who seems to enjoy the diversity of urban life, doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy who would want to live permanently on his private island away from everyone. I can’t say the same about Libertarians who dream of owning their own island.

Saying that they want to get away doesn’t necessarily lead to any conclusion about what they want to get away from.

It does if I’m specifically talking about Libertarians who dream of owning a private island away from everyone (or living in a “Free State,” or moving to a gated exurb, or retreating to a remote bunker, etc.).

I can’t make it much clearer than that, but it’s becoming equally clear to me that you don’t want to understand it. So rather than repeating myself, “Socrates,” re-read my comments above.

Comment #65: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  02:04 PM

There are a lot of interesting issues at play here. This really reminds me of how fortunate I am to have managed to literally cut out commuting from my entire routine. After a volunteer teaching gig ended, I was living with my parents until I finally got a real job that happened to be located relatively nearby in the same suburb where my parents lived. So when I moved out a few months later, I was able to choose from no fewer than 5 apartment complexes within a half-mile radius of my workplace. I’ve been living there for nearly three years and have never had to spend more than 5 minutes a day in traffic, and that includes being able to go home for my lunch hour and saving money on eating out or the trouble of packing something.

It’s been so routine for a while now that it’s easy to forget how much of a blessing it is. Especially now that my girlfriend has since moved in with me, on the rare occasion I have to drive a significant distance during approximate times of heavy traffic, it really hits me. Aside from the added expenses of gas and wear and tear on my car (which if I had to, I could probably get away with walking to work if necessary), it’s just a godsend in terms of having time to relax and do what I want in my off hours.

Of course, I work for an extremely small company, so it’s an unusual situation to be able to live like this in the suburbs, but I sure got lucky, I suppose, to be able to avoid the grind of commuting as well as avoid the “soul-crushing HR culture” to which someone here so rightly alluded.

Comment #66: Epsilon82  on  03/31  at  02:09 PM

Of course, I’d also like to see the sprawl die, but that’s more for the political, happiness related, green-belt related, -ism related, and sustainability especially with re: gas, length of infrastructure reasons.

But my point still stands that with a simple retooling of bus-lines, hell, just following school centers with connective lines or rail to other pseudo centers and business centers, we could massively reduce reliance on cars and thus traffic, global warming, and their tools as cock-mobiles.

I’m under no illusion that the politics of this would be easy or even successful. It’s about suffering for the status of the familiar, the hierarchies of old, and the patterns one has become accustomed to for many. And public transportation in America is “lower-class” and brown so it’s deliberately underfunded and “kept away” from the parts of town that are useful.

And as way of personal anecdote, when I was young, my parents lived in the suburban sprawl and got suckered in by the “good schools” trap. The only public transportation nearby was a singular public bus line that didn’t really go anywhere useful and was greatly separated from either the major business sections of the enclave or the major housing enclaves. It wasn’t even near the freeway or a major parking lot, but sort of alone in an empty green-belt. None of the nearby mini-mall shopping centers, nor pseudo-village “housing communities” had a nearby public bus line, nor did the so-called “city center” at least, not anywhere near the actual center with the mall parking lots.

I suspect this was because the “shopping centers” didn’t want poor non-shoppers using their parking lots in order to travel on the bus lines and none of the “housing communities” wanted to be near a bus line and admit that it would be useful. There was however several “school bus lines” that wound very close to my house even though I lived within walking distance of two of them.

And that political problem is hard to fix as it so often is for any other necessary positive change. Much less the political problems that suburban sprawl is unsustainable, ugly, happiness-draining, oppressive, destroys green-belts and creates environmental hazards and strained infrastructure (see San Diego’s massive increase in deadly firestorms and water battles).

Comment #67: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  02:11 PM

Can we just replace existing cars with electric versions of them and save the cost of building a rail system or having more busses?

No. The energy that generates that electricity has to come from somewhere, and the public grid infrastructure will have to take on that burden in the short and medium terms. The centralising effect means that there will be some increased efficiencies, but there are no techno-utopian free lunches that exist just to keep people isolated in private vehicles. There are long-term, large-scale efficiencies associated with public transit that a private vehicle can’t beat.

A large cultural problem (and an intractable one, I’m afraid) is that the vast majority of people are neither systematic thinkers nor long-term thinkers. And a good portion will happily accept the miserable outcomes of sequential, short-term thinking so long as others are either equally miserable or if they can somehow get “away.”

Comment #68: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  02:14 PM

Can we just replace existing cars with electric versions of them and save the cost of building a rail system or having more busses

I’m always amazed when people rail about the cost of trains and busses in the name of advocacy for cars.

Comment #69: Dan  on  03/31  at  02:14 PM

The above comment is just an insult,

Well, it was meant to be, but that’s not all it was.

What was that about libertarians being narcisisstic? Sure enough, anoNY insists on
turning this into a thread of “It’s all about me! It’s all about me!”

Comment #70: Tyro  on  03/31  at  02:17 PM

I’m always amazed when people rail about the cost of trains and busses in the name of advocacy for cars.

I wouldn’t be. The auto and oil industries have been propagandising against regional rail since the days of L.A.‘s Red Cars.

Comment #71: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  02:19 PM

“fifty individual vehicles each carrying one passenger all going to the same location would clearly be MUCH more economical than one large vehicle taking all fifty people, especially after all fifty people spend twenty minutes circling the block in competition for the same ten good parking spaces.”

Comment #72: Dan  on  03/31  at  02:20 PM

anoNY @66-

Hmm, oohkay, I’m going to explain some things, but at the same time, I don’t want to kill your idea entirely. I mean electric cars are great and wonderful devices that will do wonders for the gas crisis and global warming, but they won’t deal with the problem of congestion. And that’s just it, I don’t want to blunt enthusiasm for electric cars, because they’re great, no doubt, but I’m going to have to stand up for some realities.

Okay, that poorly said, let’s get into it. Public transportation is not only good on the obvious merits, but it greatly reduces congestion, which allows more streamlined movement of people and things and less stress in transportation. Individual cars, even with passengers can’t seat as many people in the amount of space involved as buses, trains, and subways can, which means not only more vehicles blocking pathways, but more paths to try and lessen congestion. You start needing multiple multi-lane freeways connecting a deeply sprawled road network that cuts into skyline, noise, and green-belt. And the pressure keeps increasing for more and more freeways to cut down the congestion caused by the massive amount of space taken up by single-occupancy vehicles trying to all get from heavily dense population centers to heavily dense corporate and business centers and vice versa. It is this specific space load that causes things like “rush hour” in congestion.

Public transportation along well-traveled lines and with convenient access points reduces said congestion and thus decreases stress in the travel. It does so by decreasing the amount of space each single traveler takes on roadways. In the space of 2-3 cars, a bus can easily transport 50 people without even crowding them in. For rail, a single lane can transport hundreds of people great distance with far less problems than multi-lane interstate highways which notoriously become messes when they connect with city centers.

It’s about the physical space a car takes up on these transportation paths versus the space a bus or a form of rail can take up. And suburbs are prone to many problems of this all the time. If you go to a suburb, there is a massive sprawl at every one of the local mini-mall “shopping centers” which serve as the main grocery/etc… stores for neighboring communities, which is caused by the immense parking lots for cars. These parking lots are often jam-packed with screaming stressed out soccer moms and the like trying to find parking or navigate the crush of cars.

It’s a huge waste that creates massive concrete and asphalt areas that visibly cut into green-belts and thus make life seem more sterile and artificial, not to mention still crowded, psychologically moreso than a friendly inner-city street where you can walk to local stores and then back to your house on nice relatively uncrowded sidewalks.

And there’s no other option transportation wise, because there aren’t any bus-lines connecting the suburban population centers with these “local” “shopping centers”. It’s a huge waste of physical space.

And physical space is really the big elephant in the room with regards to the suburban sprawl. For a planet becoming massively overpopulated, physical space is no longer the easily wasted freebie it once was. And furthermore, waste of physical space for things like car culture and congestion greatly reduces psychological comfort both because being stuck in traffic sucks, but also because the necessities of car culture are also ugly to look at (not many people write an unironic love-song to a crowded freeway or a parking lot) which reduces the psychological satisfaction of seeing lots of green and life and living natural motion.

So yes, things need to fix global warming and oil dependency first and soon, so I don’t want to knock that, but public transportation does need to get expanded in America for a host of other reasons including making it so people who refuse to switch are having less of a negative impact and are less stressed out and hateful towards their fellow humans when they get home.

I’m betting collectivist policy would be a lot easier if white suburbans closest interaction with non-TV “real people” weren’t faceless cars jamming the freeways of their commutes. Cause, I’m sure that feeds into the emotional logic of “fuck ‘em, I’ve got mine.” Oh, they don’t want to starve to death, should have thought of that before you cut me off in traffic leaving me to impotently swear at my steering wheel. And that is how a non-crazy person ends up voting Team Evil.

Comment #73: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  02:35 PM

Damnitt, I write a long post and several people do a snarky summary that hits all the main points.

Note to self, be less wordy.

Yeah, physical space, cars take up more of it, require more of it at the destination point, and more space taken up means congestion. Buses and rail takes up less space, both in the infrastructure (freeways, road widths, rail lines, bus stops versus parking lots) and in the actual vehicle (one person to one car or even 5 people to one car versus 50+ people to one 2-3 modern car sized vehicle, etc…).

Also what Gracchus said about the electrical grid. In the long term we need more wind farms, solar farms, but right now, most of our load is also coming from oil and coal and our infrastructure is pretty frayed right now thanks to 30 years of “government is the problem” deregulation.

Comment #74: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  02:42 PM

Replacing existing cars w/ electric cars does nothing to solve the traffic problem, unless I’m missing something…

Comment #75: teabea  on  03/31  at  02:47 PM

<i>Just as many people will give up 2 hours of their precious day sitting in traffic instead of having to dirty themselves by being neighborly or, god forbid, living in a smaller place in the city, </b>

Project much? This is a ridiculous assertion on pretty much every level.  Actually most people are happier when surrounded by trees, grass, birds - nature in short.  Why should we glorify living in an environment of asphalt?  First of all you’ve ignored the obvious fact that living in a city like Boston, New York or SF is typically much more expensive than living than in a suburb. Your attitude smacks of elitism.  Second, I actually find a much higher level of neighborliness in my suburban home or the small town in rural NH where I grew up than I did living in downtown Boston or Manhattan.  That’s partly a function of how transient the populations tend to be in major cities, but also there’s simply less day to day interaction in a city with your neighbors.  Sharing gardening tips with a neighbor tends to breed a closer relationship than simply standing in the same elevator to your apartment building after a long day at work. The problem, of course, is that the stress on the environment created by millions of people all wanting their acre of land is real, is immense and is devastating over the long run.  I get that. But attacking suburbanites by assuming they are racists living in fear is no way to gain allies, and really just plain ignorant.

Comment #76: vanya6724  on  03/31  at  02:50 PM

@ Gracchus

“It does if I’m specifically talking about Libertarians who dream of owning a private island away from everyone (or living in a “Free State,” or moving to a gated exurb, or retreating to a remote bunker, etc.).”

But that was exactly my point, if Libertarians want an island to get away from everyone, they don’t want it specifically to get away from some specific bad people.  Your assumption that they had some sort of bigoted intent was incorrect.  If you are only talking about bigoted libertarians, and not all libertarians, then just say it.  I for one would love to own an island, but I would not want to live there permanently, too isolated.


“No. The energy that generates that electricity has to come from somewhere, and the public grid infrastructure will have to take on that burden in the short and medium terms.”

I agree, but this applies to public transportation too.  Centralizing may save energy, but it seems to get close to my point about “forcing” people to change habits.  Even if someone did not use the new public transportation, they would still probably be paying for it.  I think you were right on one thing though, no one here was specifically talking about forcing someone to change habits.

Comment #77: anoNY  on  03/31  at  03:05 PM

anoNY-

And I’m openly paying for the bloated military wasted budget that employs most of the same people who tried to openly run me over with their cars back when I lived in a suburb. We’re all paying for stuff that we’ll never use, that’s the point of civilization fuck.

Course, they also use public transportation in that roadways are less congested the more public transportation is available which reduces their personal stress and hassle without them having to change one bit. Paying for extended public transportation is like paying people to leave the roadways.

Maybe we should start selling it like that to the suburban penis-mobilers.

Comment #78: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  03:11 PM

off topic:

Cerberus:

the Czech Republic (they have nazis and open soviets running against each other and the current PM is a crazed libertarian who denies evolution and climate change

Um, hi, a Czech here. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you’ve said about public transport. Just a couple of notes on our political situation: by the “Nazis” you probably mean the fascist Delnicka strana (The Worker’s Party). It was recently banned and it was never a serious political player (they were never in Parliament). I can’t think of any other party which would fit that description. The “soviets”, I guess, is the Communist Party. That one, unfortunately, is in parliament. Until recently, it was ignored by all other parties, but now it seems the social democrats might negotiate with it after the elections. We’ll see. I don’t like the idea, but in the current situation, I don’t think they are capable of doing any real harm, they can’t change the history now. Being a part of politics again and having to compromise might even rob them of some of the “protest votes” they get. Moreover, they don’t profile themselves as an anti-system party, and don’t advocate things like communist economy. But they are annoying, yes, and I don’t want to see them have seats in government and screw up our foreign policy for the next four years. Finally, the libertarian loon is not our PM, but our president Vaclav Klaus (the president has little real power in our system). He’s quite an oddity, because his views are not really mainstream. Some people love him because he likes to play the state sovereignty card against the EU, but most people with two brain cells to rub together loathe him with a passion and count down the three years he has left in office. Our political climate is certainly frustrating and our president embarrassing, but we’re not running headlong into a civil war, as it might seem from the description above wink

/lengthy nitpick wink
/off topic

Comment #79: Majoranka  on  03/31  at  03:14 PM

“I’m always amazed when people rail about the cost of trains and busses in the name of advocacy for cars.”

The distinction is in the source of funding.  A new public rail system would be expensive, and all taxpayers, users of the system or not, would be forced to pay for it.  Busses would be less expensive, but would still have a cost borne by both users and non-users.  Electric vehicles would allow costs to be borne by users only. 

My problem is not with public transportation per se, but rather with being forced to do something.  It seems to conflict with the idea of being free.   


“Also what Gracchus said about the electrical grid. In the long term we need more wind farms, solar farms, but right now, most of our load is also coming from oil and coal and our infrastructure is pretty frayed right now thanks to 30 years of “government is the problem” deregulation.”

I agree that the load would exceed what is currently on the grid.  I am not sure deregulation is completely to blame for holding us back.  Oil and gas were cheap, and solar and wind are not quite proven.  Also, wouldn’t nuclear power help?

Comment #80: anoNY  on  03/31  at  03:16 PM

Majoranka @81

And a worthy nitpick indeed. I used your country as a throwaway example and exaggerated rhetorically the level of poltical dysfunction, which is indeed not anywhere near impending Civil War and thanks for the fix on the role of the loon.

I used your country as a sort of throwaway example with an over-exaggeration based on second-hand information (the bitching of a Czech friend of mine about why the lunatic President is hard to force out and why it’s hard to build a non-soviet-communist socialist party to represent the left and center-left better for social reform) and you’re right to go, here’s the full story, ignore the crazy expatriate.

Honestly, the way he made it sound didn’t sound so much like it was impending civil war but that the two major parties were pretty much using “fighting the old wars of WW2 and the uprisings against the Soviet Union to prevent much real change. I should probably have took a little bit longer to bring that in.

More to the point of course is that even some of the civil-war recovering Baltic states still have good public transportation because they value that in Europe whereas in America we apparently value our ability to kill anyone anywhere overnight.

So thanks for the corrections and sorry for accidentally disparaging your nation.

Comment #81: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  03:24 PM

Actually most people are happier when surrounded by trees, grass, birds - nature in short.  Why should we glorify living in an environment of asphalt?

There’s this thing in cities called “parks”—some of them groomed, some of them more rustic, some small, some large. They generally contain trees, grass and birds.

First of all you’ve ignored the obvious fact that living in a city like Boston, New York or SF is typically much more expensive than living than in a suburb. Your attitude smacks of elitism.

I’d suggest that a version of Parkinson’s Law exists in terms of money: “Expenditures expand so as to fill the scope available for their application” (which could be related to Parkinson’s second law: “expenditures rise to meet income”).

Put another way, they weren’t building modest 3-bedroom tract homes in the exurbs for the past 15 years, they were building 4- or 5-bedroom McMansions. Throw in increased costs associated with driving the car everywhere, and things tend to even out if you’re focused on finance rather than class-based populism.

Second, I actually find a much higher level of neighborliness in my suburban home or the small town in rural NH where I grew up than I did living in downtown Boston or Manhattan.

I wouldn’t be surprised, because if you “belong” (due to social class or accident of birth and willingness to conform) you’re golden in a small town or isolated exurb. People who are gay or members of visible racial or religious minorities or who are into “strange” intellectual pursuits often get out of town the moment they graduate high school.

Places like Boston and Manhattan by their nature create welcoming and neighbourly spaces for strangers. Small towns and suburbs create welcoming and neighbourly spaces for those already in the “in group.” In both cases one is identifying who they’ll be neighbourly with, but in different ways.

Sharing gardening tips with a neighbor tends to breed a closer relationship than simply standing in the same elevator to your apartment building after a long day at work.

There are just as many things for neighbours to bond over in an urban elevator: building issues, civic issues, children, gossip. To say that the magical, earthy nature of gardening creates a closer bond is to stray into Bo-Bo Brooks territory, and you seem too thoughtful and honest to go there.

The problem, of course, is that the stress on the environment created by millions of people all wanting their acre of land is real, is immense and is devastating over the long run.  I get that. But attacking suburbanites by assuming they are racists living in fear is no way to gain allies, and really just plain ignorant.

The general attack here is on the culture that’s made manufactured fear and illusory benefits major selling points for moving to the suburbs and claiming that acre (and being good little HR/4th Purpose Culture consumer-employees), and the how it’s made people less happy, not more.

Comment #82: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  03:24 PM

“And I’m openly paying for the bloated military wasted budget that employs most of the same people who tried to openly run me over with their cars back when I lived in a suburb. We’re all paying for stuff that we’ll never use, that’s the point of civilization fuck. “

I’m all for spending less on the military.  I’m sure you were kidding about civilization, it has been pretty effective at protecting us so that our standard of living is constantly improving.  However, I don’t see it as the government’s responsibility to try to influence people’s stress levels, even for the better.  I agree that there are benefits to public transportation, but that is not enough to get me to support it.  I would place the benefits against potential costs such as financial costs (and you know implementation costs will be higher than advertised), displaced citizens due to trackbuilding, maintenance and operating costs, security costs, and others I cannot think of.

Comment #83: anoNY  on  03/31  at  03:24 PM

ayutokamina @ 22:

I hate to clue you in, but you still can get away from the bad people. Just takes a little planning.

When you’re right, you’re right.  I moved out of the suburbs in 2004 and into the City. 

I left all the bad people behind.  I see them sometimes - some of them come into the city to work or to spend some money.  They’re just as evil and annoying as they are in the ‘burbs.

But, at least they go home, and then all is right with the world.  The suburbs are evil.  The people are evil.  The very nature of the place is soul-crushingly evil. 

But, if the evil people want to live in the soul-less, evil, angry, repressed, hateful landscape that is the suburbs, so be it.  I’d rather have them out there than living in the city, where they’d just ruin the neighborhood.

Comment #84: jerry_101  on  03/31  at  03:29 PM

The distinction is in the source of funding.

Oh okay. Well that’s a stupid, meaningless distinction, so I guess there’s no problem.

My problem is not with public transportation per se, but rather with being forced to do something.  It seems to conflict with the idea of being free.

You’re right, being forced to spend tens of thousands of dollars to buy a car along with thousands of dollars per year in repair fees along with the MUCH GREATER share of general tax dollars needed to subsidize roads and highways than are spent on transit all so that you can spend hours of your life trapped in traffic jams does go against the idea of being free, which is why so many of us sensibly prefer the liberating option of sensible and cost-effective mass transit.

Comment #85: Dan  on  03/31  at  03:32 PM

But that was exactly my point, if Libertarians want an island to get away from everyone, they don’t want it specifically to get away from some specific bad people.

Again, Socrates, re-read my posts if you want to understand my point. I’m not going to keep repeating the same thing, especially since everyone else seems to get it.

I agree, but this applies to public transportation too.  Centralizing may save energy, but it seems to get close to my point about “forcing” people to change habits.

I can only point to the comments on congestion, above—especially in relation to the main point of the original post. Perhaps you can tell us how electric cars will relieve congestion.

I know centralisation and paying a miniscule share for infrastructure you don’t use may be a scary concept for you, but that’s the price of living in any developed nation-state. If that’s the only thing you want to get “away” from, I’ll admit that there are lovely places like Somalia where you can re-locate. Closer to home, you might look at the effects on California’s K-12 education system after Prop 13, or the lack of emergency services in that conservative/Libertarian haven of Colorado Springs.

However, I don’t see it as the government’s responsibility to try to influence people’s stress levels, even for the better.

Except to pay lip service to the concept from a health point of view, the state doesn’t give a hang about stress levels. It does care about sustainability, a happy side effect of which can be lower stress levels. Living an unsustainable lifestyle, on the other hand, creates a lot of stress: ask anyone who’s buried in credit card debt but surrounded by consumer goods; or ask someone who’s underwater after the mortgage payments on their McMansion “unexpectedly” ballooned.

Comment #86: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  03:32 PM

I agree that the load would exceed what is currently on the grid.  I am not sure deregulation is completely to blame for holding us back.  Oil and gas were cheap, and solar and wind are not quite proven.  Also, wouldn’t nuclear power help?

Comment #82: anoNY

As I work in the industry, let me take a stab at this…
No.

There is the little problem of transmitting energy from source to destination.  Money is made generating it and selling it at its destination.  There is no money to be made getting it from one location to the other.  The New England blackout of 2002 proved this.

Since the 80’s when deregulation of energy grid began discussion, investment has moved to either building more generators or building more homes and offices that can be billed for using electricity.  Enron exploited this inattention to transmission with things it like to call “Death Star” and other such names.  It bought up huge amounts of generated power then sold it to California but routed it through bottlenecks which brought the system down.

It’s also the reason that T. Boone Pickens back off on his Mega Wind Farm in Texas.  There are no transmission lines to the region that fit his needs and the cost of running new high votlage lines was prohibitive to his priffit margin.

Comment #87: cynickal  on  03/31  at  03:32 PM

Sorry, I got caught up in my geekiness and didn’t answer the question asked.

No, the world hold only enough fissionable material to sustain us at 2005 levels for 50 years.  Plus it takes about 10 years to build a nuclear power plant.

Comment #88: cynickal  on  03/31  at  03:35 PM

“To me, libertarianism seems too much like a religion, complete with mortification of the flesh, to truly be on the side of earthly happiness. But your milage may vary. “

@athiest29

This is a bit late, sorry about that.  I don’t see libertarianism as commanding me to do anything like cutting myself off from society, like a religion might.  It’s really about being more tolerant, not less so.  I read Reason magazine, and I agree with a lot of the opinions but certainly not all.  It’s kind of like some universalist religion where every member comes to it with slightly different beliefs.  I have heard of people who describe themselves as libertarian who think we shouldn’t pay taxes or should kick out immigrants.  Then again, I know plenty who believe immigration should be more open, and some limited government (funded through taxes) is legit.  I think you make us out to be too much like Catholics in your comment, too dogmatic.

Comment #89: anoNY  on  03/31  at  03:40 PM

“MUCH GREATER share of general tax dollars needed to subsidize roads and highways than are spent on transit “

Right, because those roads are just going to be ignored once rail is implemented?  Rather, you can pretty much add the cost of a rail system to that of the existing road infrastructure.

Comment #90: anoNY  on  03/31  at  03:42 PM

anoNY @82

Sorry, phrased that imprecisely apparently. The infrastructure itself is frayed because of deregulation, i.e. the grid, the power lines, the transformers, not the method of energy creation. Energy creation is the way it is because oil companies have spent over 40 years trying to make “green energy” and the very idea of sustainability into a curse word so that we all assume that wind farms and solar panels would be a waste of resources better spent on failing to defeat natives around the world in high-tech super wars.

And I hate to keep harping on this, but a)freeways aren’t free. I’m, your, we’re all subsidizing their building, upkeep, policing, and expansion. We pay for them, that’s why they aren’t pothole filled toll roads two lanes wide. b) Busses and public transportation would be a means by which we could reduce wear and tear on roads, reduce congestion to high-traveled locations, and otherwise aid both users and non-users together.

And primarily chiefly and unequivocally, c) We all pay for things we don’t directly use and not all of them are nice to include universal benefits even for non-users like public transportation provides in reduced congestion and road width as well as asphalt sprawl to car-users. There are a number of things I’ll never be able to make use of and have no intention of making use of that are there to take care of people who need them or provide them benefits. There are even some things I rather wish my money wasn’t going to or which will actively make my life worse (such as the faith-based subsidies to anti-gay charities). But the thing about living in a republic and being a part of a functional society is that I get to pay for things that are for other people or that other people want and other people pay in for things I want or that are for me. We all pitch in to help everybody, because that creates a more functional and fair society.

But somehow it’s only the conservatives who get to complain about how “their tax money gets spent” as if they were the only people paying taxes. Liberals pay taxes too. Given the break-down of blue-state/red-state, liberals often end up paying more of the taxes and getting less of the benefits as their money ends up going to help fix things broken by conservatives going “I don’t want my money paying for it”.

Also regarding an earlier concept regarding green:

Look at any major european city. They are green, they are alive, they have sprawling green-belts filled with massive art and nature, city parks, etc… Look at suburbs, so much space goes to maintaining very large parking lots that the areas end up losing more and more green until the only green comes from golf courses and the occasional identical tree withering on the meridian.

There is an approach to green and nature in cities, or more to the point, european cities, so that while there is less actual nature, there is more psychological nature. Stranded on a 10 lane freeway, you don’t feel connected to nature, you feel smogged in and covered by asphalt.

Most people like the commenter then assume that’s a problem owing entirely to cities because all they see of cities is the freeways in and the massive parking lots in front of their glass office buildings, but inside the belly of the beast, there’s green all around if they manage it right and a good city has a lot of green a subway line away in either parks or neighboring protected green-belt.

Comment #91: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  03:42 PM

First of all you’ve ignored the obvious fact that living in a city like Boston, New York or SF is typically much more expensive than living than in a suburb. Your attitude smacks of elitism.

Well, sure if you ignore all data that doesn’t fit your preformed conclusion.
Feel free to look at the following link for actual cost of suburban living.
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2010/03/housing-and-transportation.php

Comment #92: cynickal  on  03/31  at  03:43 PM

I am not sure deregulation is completely to blame for holding us back.  Oil and gas were cheap, and solar and wind are not quite proven.  Also, wouldn’t nuclear power help?

One reason that nuclear power isn’t more widespread in the U.S. is that responsible engineers and physicists (and educated voters) saw the trend toward deliberate deregulation (as opposed to the organic and informal deregulation that operates inside a Soviet-style system), and understood that combining it with concepts like containment systems and rod disposal made for a terrifying mix.

Comment #93: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  03:43 PM

I’m still a city dweller, but I’ve had some serious conflicts with noisy, shitty neighbors recently, enough to make me realize the attraction of living in the suburbs.  Yes, a commute can make you miserable, but so can electronica blasting through your floor from 8 a.m. to 10 p.m. every. single. day.

Comment #94: keshmeshi  on  03/31  at  03:45 PM

Example regarding cities and green. I live in <a >this city</a>. And it’s way more green on the ground than even that photo makes it look. It also houses almost 240,000 people.

Comment #95: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  03:46 PM

Cerberus @ 83: No hard feelings smile I have sympathy for your friend, most people are truly unhappy with our political scene now.

Comment #96: Majoranka  on  03/31  at  03:47 PM

Whoops, let me try that link again: Here.

Comment #97: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  03:47 PM

The distinction is in the source of funding.  A new public rail system would be expensive, and all taxpayers, users of the system or not, would be forced to pay for it.  Busses would be less expensive, but would still have a cost borne by both users and non-users.  Electric vehicles would allow costs to be borne by users only.

So you think that the only people paying for the construction and maintenance of roadway are their users? That’s cute.

My problem is not with public transportation per se, but rather with being forced to do something.  It seems to conflict with the idea of being free.

You’re required to pay taxes, and some share of those taxes go to programs that you do not participate in. That’s called “civilization.”

There are real-world barriers (not just the government “forcing” us to behave in a certain way) to continuing our unsustainable way of life. Being forced to change our behavior is a LOT better than the alternative, which is to continue with the way we’ve been doing things until we run head-long into those real-world barriers.

Comment #98: grolby  on  03/31  at  03:53 PM

Right, because those roads are just going to be ignored once rail is implemented?  Rather, you can pretty much add the cost of a rail system to that of the existing road infrastructure.

No, as fewer people drive (i.e. use the roads) there’ll be a shift to fees and tolls for their usage. General taxes will still be a fact of life to maintain roads, but buses and other public transit vehicles that create wear and tear will be charged fees along with the private cars, though likely at different rates.

Additionally, rail systems are used by a handful of private and public entities, meaning setting and collecting usage fees there becomes much more efficient as well (though technology will make this gap smaller than it might have been in the past).

Comment #99: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  03:53 PM

anoNY @85

I’m being hoist on the petard of my linguistic clumsiness.

Okay, what I was trying to say there was that we all pay for things that we don’t personally benefit from because other people benefit from them and pay for things they don’t personally benefit from but I do.

What you have advocated for is that suburbanites have a right to not pay for public transportation if they don’t personally benefit from them, despite wanting all of us sinner inner-city brown-people-loving types to continue to pay for the upkeep, expansion, and policing of their beloved freeway system.

Someone should benefit at the end of the day and the beautiful thing about public transportation that you seem utterly clueless to parse is that there are direct indirect benefits to car-users from public transportation. Chiefly, less congestion.

You know, the happiness draining, soul-crushing, time-wasting hell that requires us to constantly expand the existing freeway systems and expand them through greater and greater areas of green-belt causing massive noise pollution, air-pollution, and generalized stress.

That congestion. People using public transportation use less physical space. Cause less congestion for the proud penis-mobilers of the suburban Fighting Fit so they can get home in a reasonable time and stop blaming the existence of cities for why they are so stressed out and mean-feeling when they get home.

Electric cars are great, they fix some existing critical problems, but the problem of congestion is what’s causing the stress for car-based commuters and the topic of this thread.

Comment #100: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  03:58 PM

I’m still a city dweller, but I’ve had some serious conflicts with noisy, shitty neighbors recently, enough to make me realize the attraction of living in the suburbs.

I hear you, but you haven’t seen a dispute with noisy, shitty neighbours until you share a real property line with them.

In an urban rental apartment or condo or co-op you have some recourse with the landlord or sponsor or board, and the cops are more willing to enforce “quality of life” laws if your city has a 311 line.

In the ‘burbs you’re lucky if there’s a 311 line, and otherwise you’re pretty much on your own against arsehole neighbours (who do indeed exist there).

Comment #101: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  04:00 PM

For the record, I live in a city, and wouldn’t live anywhere else.

But I think you *vastly* underestimate the degree to which people want to live in the suburbs because they think it’s better for their children. Imagine kids running around in green yards, playing ball or frisbee in a field, climbing trees, sitting in a wading pool or swinging on a swingset. Now imagine the exact same kids running around in an abandoned lot that’s gone to weeds, playing ball or frisbee in the street, climbing onto roofs, sitting in a crowded public pool or swinging on a broken-down swingset in an urban area where there’s broken glass and used needles on the ground. That is the mental image contrast that I think most parents picture.

I’m sure there’s some racism (I don’t want little Joey going to *that* school because of all the black kids there) involved, but suburban schools tend to perform better, have less school violence and fewer obvious signs of drug use around them, and have nicer playgrounds. There are a *lot* of genuinely good reasons why a parent of small children would prefer a suburban environment for their kids.

Of course, my feeling is that as soon as those kids hit the teen years, the pluses of lots of access to tamed nature and yards large enough to have your own equipment without having to share with big kids who might bully you are vastly outweighed by the minuses of no transportation and *nothing* fun to do. In a city, there are recreation centers, there are buses and other forms of public that let kids get to stores that are more creative than Hot Topic, teen mobility allows them to get to parks, and in some cities there are even nightclubs that don’t serve alcohol and let teens in. I wanted to live in a city so my kids would be happier when they were teens, and I just went out of my way to find the biggest yard in a city that I could. But I can’t blame suburban parents for doing what they feel is best for their child—it’s hard to look ahead when your kid is two or three and imagine what they’ll want when they’re fourteen. A lot easier to imagine what they will find fun when they are six.

Comment #102: Alara J Rogers  on  03/31  at  04:06 PM

So, in the two big American cities I’ve lived in (NYC, where I grew up, and SF (& other parts of the Bay Area), where I’ve been living all my adult life), the cost of living in the metro centers is just so damn expensive that working class and middle class families move to the ‘burbs out of financial necessity, and maybe because they think their kids will have a better shot at a decent education in a different school system.  Moving from Manhattan to Yonkers or from S.F. to Vallejo, for example, isn’t exactly a move up, status-wise. 

I’ve lived in cities all my life and on the whole really like urban life, but it’s not as black and white as cities are lovely/ suburbs are awful.  There are neighborhoods in cities that are pretty awful, where people don’t take walks because they don’t feel safe, and there are no grocery stores or parks, and the schools are awful, etc.  In my personal experience, living in a crappy urban neighborhood doesn’t really do much for my happiness.

Comment #103: Anony Mouse  on  03/31  at  04:09 PM

Majoranka @98

Oh no problem, and hey, could be worse, you could be America. Man do I feel bad for anyone moving back to that broken system in a couple of months…

Oh wait.

anoNY @91

Oh right, libertarian. I really should have seen that you weren’t just repeating their bullshit passively, but an actual investor in Kool-Aid Inc. Suddenly the “but freeways are free and besides public transportation is tainted by collectivism” brain diarrhea makes a lot more sense.

Of course, to actual people interested in business, having your employees arriving to their work with low stress is highly critical to having a non-fractious workplace that’s more motivated. As is a workforce that doesn’t constantly feel drained and miserable when they arrive home with very few hours to recover.

Of course, there’s also a number of huge benefits to business in having a strong social net in general, including less things needing to be invested in to get your product to market or in taking care of basic needs for your employees.

But then, that would offend the libertarian pony fantasies, I guess.

Comment #104: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  04:10 PM

But I think you *vastly* underestimate the degree to which people want to live in the suburbs because they think it’s better for their children.

Just the other day I was talking with a parent who moved to the suburbs, mainly because she was legitimately worried about the increased incidence of childhood asthma in Brooklyn (where she lived) and the Bronx due to pollution. She described how often her infant was exposed to smoke and dirty steam on the streets.

Obviously this is a real problem, and one that has to be fixed to make the city more livable. But it’s also not something that will be fixed within a year, so I can’t really blame a parent to want to go somewhere else.

Imagine kids running around in green yards, playing ball or frisbee in a field, climbing trees, sitting in a wading pool or swinging on a swingset. Now imagine the exact same kids running around in an abandoned lot that’s gone to weeds, playing ball or frisbee in the street, climbing onto roofs, sitting in a crowded public pool or swinging on a broken-down swingset in an urban area where there’s broken glass and used needles on the ground. That is the mental image contrast that I think most parents picture.

They may be in for a disappointment if they move to a low-tax suburb, where the once pristine playgrounds and K-12 schools are as run-down as their urban counterparts.

Of course, my feeling is that as soon as those kids hit the teen years, the pluses of lots of access to tamed nature and yards large enough to have your own equipment without having to share with big kids who might bully you are vastly outweighed by the minuses of no transportation and *nothing* fun to do.

Two words: New Grenada

Comment #105: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  04:16 PM

Oi, okay, people, the “grimy urban centers” idea is a racist, classist one, one who’s existence owes to specific problems of suburban types deliberately underfunding city centers. The broken glass playground especially rises from rich types buying out lots and doing nothing with them, but refusing right of local communities to clean them up or repurpose them for community benefits.

And suburbs are “clean” only on the surface. The ultimate victory of style over substance. They look “clean” but the neighborhoods around mine when I grew up had high levels of neighbor-on-neighbor violence, had a massive white-person-based drug trade with a flaming drug gang war, and high levels of child abuse and more hidden behind nice and clean facades.

There’s a reason they are so perfect for horror movies. Rows of identical houses, where no one really cares about what’s going on inside, while all manners of abuses were smiled over and forgotten, and host to so many openly nasty bigotries and petty acts of violence and selective enforcement.

It’s a sterile hell, like so many sci-fi dystopians have imagined in their works. A world with the nasty corners of humanity kept so perfectly out of sight so all the respectable people can pretend it was carefully kept away in those nasty areas where they let it see the daylight.

Oh yeah, it’s perfect for horror and cultural satire.

Comment #106: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  04:21 PM

I stopped paying attention to anoNY when he proudly proclaimed that when we run out of fossil fuels, we’ll just use ELECTRICITY!

Which apparently comes magically from elves and is not, apparently, generated mostly by using..fossil fuels.

Comment #107: Well, what?  on  03/31  at  04:22 PM

Samus:

SO OFTEN I hear people whining, “I’d love to read more, but I just don’t have time.” That’s so silly!! You DO have the time—when you are driving in your car or riding the train or bus. I tend to enjoy audiobooks even more than reading a book because hearing someone read something well can bring new life to a story.

This doesn’t work for everyone.

In particular, I become extremely nauseated when I try to read aboard any vehicle traveling on a road, or any vehicle that has to slow down and speed up a lot (so trains are ok, but subways and buses are not, and neither are cars.) But I can’t listen to audiobooks because I read about five times faster than the human voice, and t h e s l o w n e s s o f s p e e c h drives me insane when I know that I could be drinking from the firehose and instead I’m getting a trickle.

Of course, the speed with which I read means I *do* have time to read, and I read a lot—I just started buying ebooks for my cell phone, and when I’m on line at the grocery store I can whip my phone out and read a few pages. But audiobooks are not actually equivalent to written works—you use different parts of the brain in processing speech versus writing, and I’m probably not the only person who comprehends writing faster and better than speech.

Also, you can’t listen to music if you’re listening to an audiobook. And if I have to endure a commute in traffic without music, I will kill.

Comment #108: Alara J Rogers  on  03/31  at  04:24 PM

@109

I now have a powerful urge to write a fantasy story about “Peak Elf”.

Comment #109: Cerberus  on  03/31  at  04:25 PM

Why have you chosen to live so far away?

I live in Silicon Valley.  One ends up changing jobs more often than in other places where I live, so I picked a fairly central location.  My best commute was a 2 mile walk.  When I had a contract in San Francisco, Caltrain was absolutely wonderful.  Now, I’m working for a startup, so there’s no Applebus or the like to the officepark hell.

Comment #110: James  on  03/31  at  04:25 PM

No, the world hold only enough fissionable material to sustain us at 2005 levels for 50 years.  Plus it takes about 10 years to build a nuclear power plant.

Plus none of the nuclear power plants have ever been built within planned budgets, and all ended up being unprofitable barring massive government subsidies (which in the USA were basically coming from a PR fund designed to make nuclear energy sexy to deflate the anti-nuclear weaponry activist groups).

Nuclear is great for weaponry, not so great for energy production. But the DoD figured that the first would meet with stiff resistance from the public if they couldn’t sell the latter as an alternative use. Nuclear energy is basically a loss leader.

Comment #111: BlackBloc  on  03/31  at  04:27 PM

When you hit Peak Elf, things go to hell in *unimaginable* ways. wink

Comment #112: Well, what?  on  03/31  at  04:27 PM

Plus it takes about 10 years to build a nuclear power plant.

Just 3 years if you do away with all that pesky government regulation anoNY whinges about.

What? You didn’t say “relatively safe.”

Comment #113: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  04:30 PM

Isn’t James as pictured (not the commenter) also doing the international hand sign for ‘mocking Hitler’ as well as doing the salute and hat?

Comment #114: Crissa  on  03/31  at  04:31 PM

When you hit Peak Elf, things go to hell in *unimaginable* ways.

More like things go to Drizzt.

Comment #115: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  04:32 PM

In an urban rental apartment or condo or co-op you have some recourse with the landlord or sponsor or board, and the cops are more willing to enforce “quality of life” laws if your city has a 311 line.

I did ultimately get my landlord involved* (she was more sympathetic than I thought she would be), but I decided I didn’t want to live in an apartment with little privacy (I could hear everything my neighbors did, so, by extension, they could hear everything I did) when my neighbors were such fucking assholes.  If I merely shared a property line with them, I wouldn’t have felt it necessary to move.

*Ironically, I would’ve been satisfied had they only blasted music for a couple of hours a day; I only complained once it went on for hours and hours.  Since they refused to be reasonable and insulted me for complaining, I had to go to the landlord, and she pretty much shut them down completely.  Some people are too stupid to live.

Comment #116: keshmeshi  on  03/31  at  04:33 PM

Most people I know with horrible, rather than bothersome, commutes all bought homes and then changed companies/jobs (due to lay offs mostly or worsening working conditions related to those) or transferred jobs within companies (often not voluntarily) to locations farther from home.

Worse—when I worked for Bell Labs in New Jersey back in the 1980’s, I bought a house in Pennsylvania where I could afford it.  Three months later, they relocated our group to Lincroft with no relocation.  75 miles away.  That’s shortly before when I left Bell Labs.

Comment #117: James  on  03/31  at  04:36 PM

If I merely shared a property line with them, I wouldn’t have felt it necessary to move.

I could introduce you to people who felt differently. One suburban horror story was the semi-absentee neighbour who let their lawn and leasehold maintenance go to pot. I’m talking waist-high weeds, rodents, feral cats, a whole ecosystem. The neighbour’s teenagers were another form of animal—their blaring music might have been less frequent then that of your arsehole neighbours, but I doubt they and their friends ever pissed on your doormat or fire escape.

Given that a property line doesn’t ensure that one is “away” from such problems (per the Libertarian dream), my friend spent almost 10 years trying to alternately sell their home at something close to the price paid (no easy task, as you might guess) and get the town to take over the neighbour’s property. Since the owner was as slipshod at paying property taxes as he was with care of his home, the city reluctantly had to step in and clean things up, so my friends’ house was sold. But it was 10 years of hell getting to that point.

(bonus: this neighbour from hell was—surprise—a religious fundie!)

Not to diminish your experience in the slightest. I describe an extreme situation, but yours sounded pretty damned miserable.

Comment #118: Gracchus.  on  03/31  at  04:49 PM

Majoranka, I have a friend at Charles University.  He writes home the craziest things about dealing with bureaucracy and things like fist-fights with nazis in bars.

Comment #119: Crissa  on  03/31  at  04:52 PM

I think to some extent the grass is always greener. I grew up in Chicago, I’ve never really lived anywhere else, apart from a stint at the University of Illinois 150 miles away. I have grown up taking trains and buses everywhere and still do. I have never owned a car. I frequently borrow my dad’s though and I have to say, driving is AWESOME. I think anything that gets you out of your daily routine is awesome. It also feels faster to me a lot of the time.

As a public policy matter of course, I obviously see the superiority of public trans.

Comment #120: typist  on  03/31  at  05:04 PM

you’ve ignored the obvious fact that living in a city like Boston, New York or SF is typically much more expensive than living than in a suburb.

True.  But ...

(1) Living in Brattleboro, VT, Fitchburg, MA, or Binghamton, NY is cheap.  All of these are walkable small cities.  Ithaca, NY and Burlington, VT are also walkable but still affordable.  Walkability does not entail “more expensive.”  Compare the cost of living in Fitchburg with Columbia, MD.  Columbia is the apotheosis of car culture suburbs.  I think you can even live in Ithaca for less.

(2) New York, Boston, and SF are high demand locations.  This is in part due to the desirability of their urban environment.  But then again, Philadelphia isn’t that expensive and is pretty walkable.

Comment #121: Richard Goblin  on  03/31  at  05:07 PM

If I were willing to buy a car and move to a neighboring suburb, I could probably shave half an hour off of my commute, and $500 off of my rent.

In other words, if you were willing to pay $300-400 a month in gas, insurance, maintenance, car payments (or foregone interest) and maintain a much higher level of attention during your commute, <b>and</a> impose the marginal cost of another car on the road and another parking place downtown on all the people around you, you could shave $500 off your rent.

Comment #122: paul  on  03/31  at  05:18 PM

Like Alara @ #104, city living wins my vote, but I understand nevertheless the appeal of the suburbs, particularly for people living with small children. 

The city is grimy.  It just is.  The air quality is terrible, and everything is covered with sticky grey automotive dust.  People spray paint graffiti on your front door.  There’s no room to play indoors, so you take your kid to the park and watch like a hawk that they don’t dash out into traffic or pick up a needle.  Physically, there’s a greater margin for error in suburban spaces, as parks are set well off the roadside, with more grass and less glass and (hopefully) fewer drugs lying around.  Shopping on foot with small children is no picnic, either.  Even entering and exiting the house is a logistic challenge, because of traffic, oh god, the traffic. 

During the winter, my parent friends sit around reminiscing about the suburban 3-, 4-, 5-bedroom houses-with-basement-playrooms that we all grew up in.  Or a least a fenced yard so you can toss them outside.  A little space becomes pretty appealing when you are surrounded by small demanding highly-active people.

Comment #123: Pomme  on  03/31  at  05:26 PM

In Memphis, urban homes have yards, and many many people live in homes, even if they rent them. However, folks act like Memphis has the cooties. I swear, people dog on Cordova because it was annexed, even though it’s the same suburb it ever was! *slightly related to the suburbs/urban debate*

Comment #124: shannon  on  03/31  at  05:29 PM

my friend spent almost 10 years trying to alternately sell their home at something close to the price paid

Home ownership definitely adds an additional wrinkle.  Although if I had owned my apartment, I wouldn’t have been able to move either in this market.

Comment #125: keshmeshi  on  03/31  at  05:39 PM

The only reason I can think that people think sitting in a subway is as bad as sitting in a car stuck in traffic is if they really can’t stand being close to so many people that are different from them.  That’s the only reason.  The subway rarely frustrates the way stop and go traffic can, and because you’re not in control on the subway, you can devote attention to listening to a podcast, reading a book or newspaper, or otherwise occupying your time productively.  When I had to sit in traffic, I couldn’t even listen to music, because the gap between the energy music gave me and my ability to move my car made me want to scream with frustration.  But I love listening to music on the subway!  I can give it my full attention.

Not surprising that a libertarian would put not having to sit with people different from you—-maybe even of different races!—-as more troubling than the shoulder-scrunching misery of having to sit in traffic.

Comment #126: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/31  at  05:41 PM

I find being stuck on a subway train a pinch more frustrating than being stuck in traffic, not because, I hope, I am a huge racist, but because the former happens to me as a matter of routine so much more often, and also, I rather like solitude and don’t always enjoy being surrounded by strangers regardless of their demographics.

Comment #127: typist  on  03/31  at  05:50 PM

Well, a few people are ‘different’ in that their hygiene is not up to snuff, but it’s not as bad as traffic congestion IMO.

Comment #128: shannon  on  03/31  at  05:54 PM

I live in the Seattle area. I live outside of Seattle and commute to work because it’s DAMN expensive to live IN Seattle and much cheaper for a LOT more space outside Seattle. I do kinda wish the public transportation was better here, I hate traffic. But taking the bus takes 3 times as long (there are no bus lanes on 520 and I don’t work downtown so no express buses so they stop every block once in Seattle). I wish we had a subway here.

Comment #129: slingshot  on  03/31  at  06:27 PM

I’d also like to mention that Seattle is clean and green. Out of all the metro cities I’ve been to, by far my favorite to live in. In NY i could TASTE the air and couldn’t breathe well. I’ve lived most of my adult life in Seattle, and only recently went to suburbs to have more room for a boyfriend and 2 dogs. (room that we couldn’t afford in Seattle).

Comment #130: slingshot  on  03/31  at  06:32 PM

Crissa @ 121:
Fist fights with nazis in bars?! Well, everything’s possible, if he goes to some unsavory places or has anarchist friends… Has never happened to me but I’m Czech and white. We do have some small fascist groups here, but they don’t seem to pose a significant threat. Prague is full of tourists and people from other countries, though it’s nowhere near as cosmopolitan as, let’s say Paris or London. It’s not like you’d have to fear violence walking down the street or going into a pub, even if you’re a foreigner… But I don’t want to discount his experience, I just find it really surprising. Bureaucracy, on the other hand, is not surprising at all. We’re really good at it. Everybody hates it (except the clerks themselves), but nobody knows what to do with it. What is your friend studying? I’m at Charles University too, Politics Science and English.

Comment #131: Majoranka  on  03/31  at  06:37 PM

The only reason I can think that people think sitting in a subway is as bad as sitting in a car stuck in traffic is if they really can’t stand being close to so many people that are different from them.  That’s the only reason.

Christ on a cracker, Amanda. The fact that you can’t manage to think of a reason = anyone who doesn’t <3 the subway is a bigot? Here’s a reason I’m actually ashamed you didn’t think of: harassment. When I lived in Portland - a city with a fine public transit system, by the way - it wasn’t until I got a motorcycle jacket and wore it regularly that I stopped getting hit on by the kind of guy who is all sweet until you tell him you’re not interested and then calls you a bitch. And I’m not even all that cute. A close friend of mine, who’s Asian, actually quit commuting by bus and bought a car because she could not go a single day without some assclown bothering her. Report to the driver? Right, as if some overworked, underpaid bus driver whose primary concern is not getting screamed at for being .2 minutes late to a stop is going to take time out of his busy day to deal with a harasser.

As for the people proclaiming the frugality and neighborliness of living in a city, try it when you’re not a childfree urbanista. There’s a reason that San Francisco has an abysmally low number of families living in the city, and it’s not because people with children are too ashamed of their own uncoolness to live next door to the West Coast version of Amanda Marcotte.

Comment #132: mythago  on  03/31  at  06:44 PM

People who talk about “crime” in cities I think are stuck in a time warp. They still think it’s the 70s, 80s, and early 90s when there WAS A lot of crime in the cities, especially during the crack epidemic. But since ‘91 or so crime started dropping off dramatically and then continuing to go down more gradually, especially in the big cities like NYC and LA.

Comment #133: Ben D.  on  03/31  at  06:50 PM

Ben, a lot of people who talk about crime (no scare quotes) in cities do so because they live in cities and, thus, have to deal with actual crime in their daily lives. I don’t mean the fake “dark people will knife you for your wallet” crap that newspapers push, but bike theft, break-ins, vandalism, and the kind of low-grade crap that is pretty shitty when you’re on the receiving end, and that the police don’t especially care to spend much energy on. Of course, anybody who thinks “the suburbs” (a term apparently encompassing everything in between a ten-acre farm and downtown Manhattan) are totally free from crime is deeply mistaken.

Comment #134: mythago  on  03/31  at  06:55 PM

Ben, a lot of people who talk about crime (no scare quotes) in cities do so because they live in cities and, thus, have to deal with actual crime in their daily lives.

I was referring to people who live in the suburbs, and always have, and tell me (or post in the comment threads of the local paper) who terribly crime ridden downtown is, and how they’d never go there after dark, etc. Hence the scare quotes.

I live in the city, have since 2004, I’ve never been the victim of any kind of crime serious or otherwise. In the suburbs, my tires got slashed. Twice. YMMV.

Comment #135: Ben D.  on  03/31  at  07:01 PM

To be fair, one of the factors in today’s longer commutes is the increase in two-career couples.  It’s a lot harder to move so as to optimize two commutes than it is to optimize one.  It’s even harder when you are also trying to optimize access to quality daycare, etc.  That certainly doesn’t mean we should want to go back to the 50s, only that increased commute distances is part of the price we pay for greater social and economic equality.

Comment #136: EDguy  on  03/31  at  07:30 PM

When you hit Peak Elf, things go to hell in *unimaginable* ways.

Well, of course,  The buggers reproduce so rarely it’s not economic.

However, I’ve been working on a way to convert orcs into bio-fuel with which I’m just about ready to go public…

Comment #137: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/31  at  07:38 PM

Until we get controlled fusion as an energy source, electric cars aren’t the solution, as energy costs will simply be centralized at a power plant. Petroleum is limited, coal is NOT clean, natural gas and solar are our best options at the moment.

I *do* believe in fusion, but not on planning our lifestyles around a power source that may not be available in the near future.

Comment #138: Samantha Vimes  on  03/31  at  07:50 PM

@134 Right on. I despise driving, despise traffic, despise parking. I’ve engineered my life to revolve around buses and trains (and the occasional cab or rental car). Hopefully I’ll never own a car again. I’ve been in one near-accident (thankfully never an actual accident) and that is an experience I never want to have again.

BUT

I have had some unpleasant, revolting, dangerous, and downright horrific experiences on trains/buses as well. If someone decided—in an informed manner, mind you, not just knee-jerk—that those experiences don’t balance out the benefits, I could hardly blame them.

Comment #139: Well, what?  on  03/31  at  08:50 PM

I don’t know who talked about cars for when you need to move stuff, and for when you need to go now.  There is always car services, cabs, etc.  Taking a cab every now and then because it’s 4am or because you are taking fancy-homemade dessert to your mom’s birthday + metrocards is still a lot cheaper than owning, maintaining, ensuring, driving and parking a car. 

Nowadays, we don’t even get cabs.  Our friends with cars will sometimes beg us to take their cars home, just so they don’t have to move them in the morning.  But I know that this problem is specific to crowded cities and a specific encouragement to not get cars.

Comment #140: raspberryjamba  on  03/31  at  09:01 PM

This might be off topic, but someone up-thread mentioned that it’s hard to pull off city-living and public transportation using when you have children. 

I guess I had never before realized other people see childlessness as a privilege even though both parenthood and childlessness are conscious choices.

Comment #141: raspberryjamba  on  03/31  at  09:08 PM

The only reason I can think that people think sitting in a subway is as bad as sitting in a car stuck in traffic is if they really can’t stand being close to so many people that are different from them.

I’ve never been sexually harassed, jostled, groped, or flashed in my own car.  I also don’t have to smell other people’s (especially indigents’) body odors.  I don’t have to worry about stepping in vomit or other human fluids/waste.  Nor do I have to deal with the occasional lunatic who throws a shit fit or provokes a fight, forcing everything to come to a grinding halt until the cops come to forcibly remove him/her.

Comment #142: keshmeshi  on  03/31  at  09:29 PM

Make Love Not Traffic.

Comment #143: Ms Kate  on  03/31  at  09:49 PM

Keshmeshi, that’s one reason that I bike to work.

Now, biking means dealing with traffic, but it also means being able to get around traffic.  I also find it easier to cope with traffic if I’m physically active - fight or flight response gets put to good use as flight.

Comment #144: Ms Kate  on  03/31  at  09:50 PM

Raspberryjamba, it has more to do with accessibility expressed from a singular selfish standpoint. 

Most aggravations of taking youngsters on transit, in my experience, are largely issues that also affect people with disabilities - stairs instead of level platforms, putting in so much seating that there is no room for anything being carried, including folded strollers (also affects single travellers with suitcases, folding bikes, large instruments, boxes, grocery carts, etc.).  Much is also, quite frankly, lack of will to try it and failure to fully understand how far a kid can really walk.

With the youngest of kids, planning a longer journey is necessary - but it is also a very inexpensive form of entertainment!  My kids and I would joyride the rails for fun.

Comment #145: Ms Kate  on  03/31  at  09:54 PM

Per the kids-in-a-suburb discussion, that’s how I grew up and it was lovely. I am shy, private and bookish, and I’m not particularly interested in going out every night (or every weekend… or every month, even…) There was pretty much nothing else I wanted as a kid than to hang out in my *large* backyard, spend time in my *own* bedroom (1 of 3 kids no less!) and walk to the smallish library or the tiny downtown (it had a local bookstore and an ice cream shop, so I was perfectly satisfied.) The privacy and quiet was very nice, and not being able to easily access nightclubs or whatever really was no burden at all.

The school was likewise nice; living outside the city meant the school was free to sprawl across and large chunk of land, and it had its own track, several fields, parking, etc. That also made it very accessible—single-story meant only about 2 short staircases in the entire building, with ramps next to them. All my friends (who were not all white people, shockingly) lived within a few miles of the school, and all their houses were bike-able from mine no problem. I liked to walk to the pond. I liked to take my dog out to the fields around the school and watch her tear around like a crazy bitch, too. :D

So, not to blow the everloving minds of the social and sophisticated and oh-so-diverse city-dwellers out there, but there are some people out there who really are suited for a more relaxed lifestyle, and who value a little space and a backyard more than they value being able to smell 20 million other humans every time they step out the door. smile

Comment #146: Bagelsan  on  03/31  at  10:15 PM

What I want to know is this: how does sex while commuting affect my happiness? THIS IS IMPORTANT.

Comment #147: stonebiscuit  on  03/31  at  11:00 PM

Bagelsan:

If you could walk to the local library or the rest of downtown, you didn’t live in what has become the typical suburb. Think no-sidewalk group of cul-de-sac streets opening directly on limited-access local highway, also sidewalk-free. One of the things I’ve found as I visit more and more places is that people tend to think of suburbs as small towns, but most of them have nothing like the things that make people nostalgic for small-town life. (Just the things that made people leave their small towns for the big city.)

Comment #148: paul  on  03/31  at  11:03 PM

And now, a real comment:

But it’s funny how suburbanites are afraid of the dangerous city.  If someone wants to rob me, they have to pick my building, get in, and then pick my unit and get in.  In the suburbs, there’s just the one choice—>that one.  Seems much scarier to me now.

When someone robbed me, they had been watching/trying all the apartments in my building over a period of several days. My bedroom window happened to be unlocked because it was spring, and I had forgotten to relock it after having it open for much of the day. My mistake, naturally, but being one of a bunch of apartments doesn’t necessarily make you any safer from home invasion. I love living in my city (Atlanta, which def. has its own problems), but from what I understand, statistically crime is higher in urban areas.

Comment #149: stonebiscuit  on  03/31  at  11:13 PM

No, the world hold only enough fissionable material to sustain us at 2005 levels for 50 years.  Plus it takes about 10 years to build a nuclear power plant.

This entirely depends on what kind of fuel cycle your nuke plants are running. Fast breeder reactors, CANDU-style non-enriched cycles, or thorium-cycle systems have several times more potential fuel each. That said, fission is definitely a stop-gap measure between coal etc. and solar, wind, fusion, etc.

Comment #150: truth is life  on  04/01  at  12:49 AM

If you could walk to the local library or the rest of downtown, you didn’t live in what has become the typical suburb.

What is this, the No True Suburb argument?

Much is also, quite frankly, lack of will to try it and failure to fully understand how far a kid can really walk.

I’m not thinking the reason SF has such a low ratio of families-with-kids to everybody else is not that people are just too darn lazy to see how many miles their kid can walk before collapsing in exhaustion.

I was actually thinking of expenses. Things like housing, for example. Or schools - sorry, I’m by no means an anti-public-school snob, but when even the education department of a city admits that it’s completely fucked up, there’s nothing unreasonable about assuming you’ll have to pay tuition somewhere. When I was single and didn’t have kids, I didn’t really care about living in a small apartment or in a crummy neighborhood, and I sure didn’t have to try and figure out how to get a Costco box of diapers on the bus.

And of course, as EDGuy pointed out already, where you live vs. where you work is a much simpler occasion when “one” is singular.

Comment #151: mythago  on  04/01  at  01:07 AM

So, not to blow the everloving minds of the social and sophisticated and oh-so-diverse city-dwellers out there, but there are some people out there who really are suited for a more relaxed lifestyle, and who value a little space and a backyard more than they value being able to smell 20 million other humans every time they step out the door.

That’s why there’s Ithaca, Burlington, Brattleboro, and every other small, walkable city in the Northeast.

Comment #152: Richard Goblin  on  04/01  at  02:19 AM

i’m a childfree urbanista through and through but what mythago, keshmeshi and others are saying is the damn truth and i’m sort of surprised amanda overlooked the harassment issue with public transit, quite honestly.

Comment #153: chareth cutestory  on  04/01  at  02:43 AM

What I want to know is this: how does sex while commuting affect my happiness? THIS IS IMPORTANT.

Ever see “The World According to Garp”?  Something like that…

Comment #154: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  04/01  at  04:57 AM

Strawberry, in some parts of the country, having children is ‘the default’, and childless people are weird outliers. *is a weird outlier*

Comment #155: shannon  on  04/01  at  10:53 AM

I’m late to the party, but I’ll put in my two cents nonetheless.

I remember the first time I took my niece to DC (yes, for a protest—it was her 12th Birthday and she came with me to the March for Women’s Lives).

I grew up in the SF Bay Area and when I was 16 we moved to Lexington, KY (yes crazy, but Lexington is a pretty cool town EXCEPT for the lack of public transportation).

I loved BART growing up and I used to take the bus to a variety of activities (at 10 I was allowed to take the bus alone and 12 BART).

My niece, having been deprived of all public transportation for the majority of her life (she moved when she was 2), she was AMAZED by the Metro in DC and wanted to know why Lexington (heck, every city) didn’t have one! That was a great weekend all around, but her wide-eyed adoration of the Metro really did make me wonder, why aren’t more mid-sized cities devoted to public transportation and how can her wide-eyed admiration be shared!

Well, I’ve read up and I get it—white flight, car industry, lack of city planning, sprawl sold as American dream, etc. Its a sad state of affairs.

I love public transportation as I experience in large metro areas, but in mid-sized communities it is inconvenient by design and a great way to punish the poor for existing.

I will say, that one friend who moved to NYC (who really didn’t want to move there because that’s not her scene, but her husband is in-love with the NYC image) has generally adopted to the public transportation thing well, but one day she did call me crying because a homeless man sat down in the middle of the subway car and, well, pulled down his pants and pooped in protest for not getting money from the other riders. She is a strong person generally, and this would be scarring to anyone and this is more indicative of our shitty mental-health system—but that kind of stuff does happen and I get why some people are afraid of public transportation (I should mention that the friend who witnessed this is black and she’s originally from Chicago, so she’s not Peggy Sue from Petticoat Junction).

The thing is, and he’s where I’m going to be rough. That is life—people are seriously fucked up and unpleasant things happen. Public transportation is just another town-square and agreeing to take Public Transportation means agreeing to acknowledge the general mess of the human condition will impact you more directly on occasion, just as walking will put you in the real world, not in your fortress of solitude the car has become.

Peace

Comment #156: Thealogian  on  04/01  at  11:00 AM

Let me just say that as someone who has always lived in a city and has never owned a car, that I would never want to move to the suburbs. I’d never be able to tolerate the impossibility of walking places or the inherent void of it all.

And no, I’ve never found the subway particularly stressful. Commuting by subway is actually halfway enjoyable, as I can completely zone out and ignore anything that would bother me.

In regards to Ms. Marcotte’s OP, I’m hardly surprised that commuting (by car) contributes so significantly to unhappiness. Maybe you can put up a post regarding how the car-dominated culture came about. Though it’s pretty old, I think the documentary Taken For A Ride might be a good place to start.

Comment #157: Maronan  on  04/01  at  12:36 PM

Maybe it’s a New England thing but the whole “city vs. suburb thing” simply doesn’t reflect my reality. Is Somerville, MA a suburb or a city? Northhampton, MA is a diverse thriving community - and very car centric, and to me has the feel of a suburb.  The same is true of the area around Portsmouth, NH or Portland, ME. These are GLBT and artist friendly places, but they sure are not centralized cities in the European sense, and if you don’t have a car you’re pretty limited in daily life.  They are really sprawling exurbs of Boston.  Especially Portsmouth - a lot of the musicians and artists I know who live there have day or part-time jobs down in Boston. They live there because it’s get more space for their money than in Boston, it’s more friendly, there’s a lot more outdoor activity. They didn’t move there or to Northhampton to get away from the freaks, they are the freaks.  You can live right in downtown Boston in Charlestown and you’ll have all the homophobia and hatred of minorities you can handle. Maybe it’s different in the Midwest or the South but I’m sorry - in New England the suburb vs. city dichotomy does not exist the way a lot of posters are trying to portray it.

Comment #158: vanya6724  on  04/01  at  12:44 PM

And no, I’ve never found the subway particularly stressful. Commuting by subway is actually halfway enjoyable, as I can completely zone out and ignore anything that would bother me.

Yeah as much as I tried, I couldn’t actually tune out the stranger’s hand up my crotch. Silly me. I must be an overly-delicate suburban flower.

(I still take the subway every day, but I’m under no illusions about it being a perfect mode of transit.)

Comment #159: Well, what?  on  04/01  at  02:38 PM

RG @ 123
I work, in Woburn, with people who live in Fitchburg.  That’s more than 50 miles each way. 
I understand from them that Fitchburg has a very high proportion of people who work in Boston, along the I-128 circle around Boston, and on the I-495 circle even further out around Boston (though not as far out as Fitchburg). 
8 years ago, my spouse worked with someone from Fitchburg whose family was in a multigenerational house with students in Boston and Lowell, working adults in Waltham and Boston and retired adults.  While there is commuter rail, it is not workable for the majority of the commuting population there and has insufficient parking. 
Fitchburg is also a very bad choice for your illustration in that most residential parts seemed far to walk from a grocery store with any substantial purchases and without excessive time.  They have parking lots at their grocery stores for the same reasons other locations do; people drive to them.
I also spent a couple of months in Binghamton.  Unless you are talking downtown, it is not only not walkable it’s damn near not driveable in any reasonable sense.  Between the river and the multiple interstates, you can’t get there from here without going almost all the way back to where you started was a pretty common situation. 
I have no personal experience with Brattleboro, so can’t comment.
Yes, Fitchburg and (parts of) Binghamton are all nice little cities.  No, they are not examples of lack of the car commute issue because people can’t get what they need by walking.

Comment #160: helen w. h.  on  04/02  at  11:09 AM

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Comment #161: hoodly  on  04/05  at  07:34 AM
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