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Next entry: The parade of racist images continues: Obama ribs ‘n chicken Previous entry: Joe the Ingrate Plumber

McCain’s blunt demonstration of base misogyny

Update: John McCain also repeated a lie about the “born alive” bills in Illinois.  RH Reality Check has compiled information about why the anti-choicers perpetuating the “infanticide” slur are wrong, usually deliberately so.

I’ll be honest—-after the debate, I was worried that it was closer to a draw than it really was.  I knew Obama won, but the expectations on McCain were lowered so much that it was clear that the pundits weren’t going to ding him for looking like he was about to blow up the whole debate, his evident fury that he still has to talk to Obama, his rambling, his bizarre attacks, and his pity parade for people who make 5.6 times the national median salary.  We didn’t watch much of the post-debate wrap-up, because we left to go to a party, but I felt that McCain would probably pull a draw or a win merely by not throttling Obama, and especially because he made a few empty gestures towards admitting Obama’s existence.  McCain has been down so long, I just feared the mainstream media types would throw him a bone, no matter how disingenuous. Once again, I was overly pessimistic

Other bloggers will no doubt be dissecting other parts of the debate, but what impressed me was how McCain demonstrated overt misogyny.  It was sort of weird of Obama to bring up the Lily Ledbetter situation when he was asked about abortion, but I think he realized that the abortion question was going to be the only one that touched on “women’s issues”, and thus his only chance to make a case for feminist causes and provoke McCain into openly insulting women, and in that sense, Obama succeeded magnificently.  First was McCain dismissing legislation that requires women to be paid fairly as a giveaway to trial lawyers.  He’s not wrong that discrimination does provoke lawsuits, but the solution is for employers not to discriminate, not for women and racial minorities to sit down and shut up, which was McCain’s implied solution.  And how come trial lawyers are the bad guys because they make money, like Joe the Plumber?  (Don’t answer that—-I know it’s because they give to the Democrats.)  But what was, in this household at least, the most jaw-dropping moment was when McCain accused women of using health care as an excuse to get out of their due punishment for raw sluttitude.  There’s no other way to interpret his comment about health exceptions—-he openly accused women who get later term abortions of lying about their health problems to get out of pregnancy.  Searing contempt for women dripped off that statement, and it was a nice little reminder that the purported concern that anti-choicers have for women is a weak ruse indeed.  The stereotypes of women that feed his statement—-that they’re inherently deceitful, that they are prone to sexual misbehavior (and the use of deceit to cover it up) and so they have to be firmly controlled, that they’re so stupid and inconstant that they’d actually diddle around for 5 months before they get around to an abortion—-were a neat little reminder of what anti-choicers really think about women. 


The reality, of course, is much different.  Few doctors perform late term abortions, and they’re watched like hawks by the anti-choicers.  George Tiller of Kansas is constantly dragged into court by anti-choicers accusing him of what McCain was saying, which is using health as an “excuse” to let someone escape the lord’s punishment for being a sexual woman.  Unsurprisingly, they never get him for anything. His clinic is known for the extensive counseling they do, because people that have to come to them are often traumatized by the series of events that led them to Kansas.  But honestly, no matter how much you point out that wanted pregnancies go wrong all the time and have to be terminated for the mother’s health, I don’t think anti-choicers care.  They’re working off Biblical misogyny, specifically the belief that sorrow in childbirth is a woman’s punishment for sin, and if god’s plan for you is to be really, really sorrowful because you’re disabled, dead, or have delivered a baby that’s dead or is dying a horrible death, then that’s just part of his plan. 

Here’s an example of someone McCain is accusing of lying.

More from Tiffany Campbell here.  I also have an interview with her coming up a week from Monday on the podcast, and she will explain how the accusation that she’s a liar is a common thing coming from anti-choicers.  It’s despicable to accuse women who’ve gone through these personal tragedies of lying.  And make no mistake, this is pure misogyny that leans hard on the stereotype of women’s inherent deceitfulness, and is related to other debunked myths, such as the myth that women “cry” rape (at least more than people “cry” other crimes—-the rate of false reports is about the same for various crimes) or any area where women are considered far more prone to lying than men.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 02:29 PM • (71) Comments

I wasn’t thrilled with Obama saying he’d support a third trimester ban with exceptions for the health of the woman carrying. But the contrast with McCain couldn’t have been starker.

Comment #1: Dolbia  on  10/16  at  02:37 PM

I wonder if any of the fundies who embrace “sorrow in childbirth” for women have ever noticed that in the same passage it calls for men to have hard lives toiling the fields.  The daughters of Eve are still suffering the pains of childbirth but the sons of Adam sure seem to have gotten off easy.

Comment #2: Donna  on  10/16  at  02:42 PM

I wasn’t happy about that either, pepito, but it’s obvious to me that unlike McCain, Obama is actually very contemplative about the abortion issue, and considers our lives important.

Comment #3: SarahMC  on  10/16  at  02:45 PM

I couldn’t believe how big an asshole mccain looked like.

And then Andrea Mitchell couldn’t wait to declare him the winner “on points”

He lost on all points, and he’s going to get hurt with the blatant and obvious misogyny.

I couldn’t believe it.  Obama brought up Ledbetter, and all McCain could do was shout “statute of limitations…TRIAL LAWYERS!”

And then he goes off on women’s health!

There you have 2 major gaffes.  If this had been a tight race, then he’d be done now.

But, its a distant race, and the media wants it to be close, so they try to ignore the bad.

Doesn’t matter in the end.  McShame is toast.

Comment #4: jerry  on  10/16  at  02:46 PM

I wasn’t thrilled, pepito, because saying you’d support it implies that it doesn’t already exist.  I wish he’d mention that the existing law doesn’t allow for post-viability elective abortions.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/16  at  02:52 PM

I wasn’t thrilled with Obama saying he’d support a third trimester ban with exceptions for the health of the woman carrying.

Well, but that’s pretty much what Roe v Wade says.

Comment #6: rea  on  10/16  at  02:54 PM

I wasn’t thrilled with Obama saying he’d support a third trimester ban with exceptions for the health of the woman carrying. But the contrast with McCain couldn’t have been starker.

Probably political pragmatism.  Same as the gay marriage vs. civil unions thing.

Don’t know if it’s rooted in reality, but at least in terms of framing, the biblecons are winning the message war on these things right now.

Comment #7: DTG in STL  on  10/16  at  02:58 PM

I caught part of Obama’s mention of Ledbetter- it came up in the context of judicial appointments around Roe-v. Wade. I think Obama mentioned it as a key “No Douchebags” clause to his judicial philosophy.

Comment #8: Indy  on  10/16  at  03:00 PM

As I stated today on RH (love the videos and podcasts Amanda keep up the good fight please) McCain pissed me off. I knew he was a dickweed but jeebus that was just like whoa. I take offense to his air quotes personally and anyone who has read my comments on this site and RH knows why. Geez this I am speechless and angry.

Comment #9: Liz Barnes  on  10/16  at  03:02 PM

Honestly I think Obama was trying to reach out to those Republicans who have been absolutely devastated by the last 8 years and want to vote for him but have little-hang-ups about voting Democratic, especially for Obama.  It’s pragmatic.  But I don’t like the repetition of the idea that every abortion is a tragedy, etc etc.  But that pales in comparison to the rank misogyny of McCain.  My fervent hope is that as McCain continually caters to the base it drives his poll numbers further down and we can do away with the myth that the Republican base has anything to do with mainstream American views and we can start talking about them as the extremists they are.

Comment #10: pennylane  on  10/16  at  03:04 PM

McCain’s air quotes and contempt seemed like yet another leap over a cliff into political suicide.  What the hell?  It made no sense at all.  What was he thinking?  I noticed that Chris Matthews (and I’m not sure who else) immediately jumped on it as a bad move.  It just . . . boggled my mind.

Comment #11: Dr. Locrian  on  10/16  at  03:18 PM

The fact that this plays makes me really sad for republicans, who apparently live in a world where marriage is a joyless arrangement between two people who see it as little more than a duty for the purposes of childbearing. Married Republican Men don’t feel that the possible death or maiming of their wife is a big deal—they obviously can’t care for the woman they’ve married. The reality that carrying a pregnancy to term could cause infertility, blindness, the injury or loss of a major organ, not to mention death, obviously can’t be that big a deal to them if they could be so casual about the “Health” of the mother. I can draw no other conclusion than no McCain-voting Republican actually loves or respects his wife, that he would not walk away from someone who admitted that her health and wellbeing was so inconsequential.

Comment #12: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/16  at  03:19 PM

The question is:

Did his contempt for women’s health tip over any female undecideds?  Or…  We’re the people who were furious with him, already lost to him?

Comment #13: Magis  on  10/16  at  03:21 PM

Speaking as a normal human being (oh, yeah, and the spouse of someone who would pretty likely be dead twice over without that right to terminate a pregnancy for health reason), I think we should all start rolling our eyes and making air quotes whenever someone talks about McCain’s time as a POW.

Oh, wait, that would be disrespectful. My bad.

That clip, just the sneering “health of the woman” part, should be in 24-7 ad rotation.

Comment #14: paul  on  10/16  at  03:23 PM

The dials on CNN HD were shocking and depressing.  The more McCain slathered on the contempt for women’s health and rights, the more undecided women tanked for him—-it might have been his lowest negatives of the night.  But men were actually liking it.  We were all in shock at my place to see that gender gap.  Like holy shit a lot more men are still that sexist that they begrudge abortion rights kind of shock.  I would have never guessed.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/16  at  03:29 PM

I have to say, my wife and I looked at each other in disbelief when he put up his quotes around health. I was stunned, and my wife said “Did he actually do that? Hi is so toast with (her group of close friends).”

Comment #16: Mark  on  10/16  at  03:31 PM

“He is so toast”...geez

Comment #17: Mark  on  10/16  at  03:32 PM

If there is anyone who still believed that McCain is a “moderate” on abortion rights, I hope they were watching. His sneering, contemptuous endorsement dismissal of all but the most extreme right-wing position on abortion left no room for doubt, and all the more convincing because he voluntarily said it himself.

I have one slight disagreement with your analysis of McCain’s attitude, though. While I agree that anti-choicers in general have the disdain for women you describe, I suspect his contempt was actually toward pro-choice activists and politicians, and a result of projection. I think his hard-line anti-abortion stance is purely political (I don’t think he actually cares about much of anything other than his own ambition and re-fighting Vietnam) and he’s incapable of believing that his opponents’ beliefs are any different. Therefore, he probably firmly believes that “health of the mother” is a cynical political ploy by the other side, and therefore worthy of nothing but disdain.

Comment #18: Redshift  on  10/16  at  03:39 PM

Wait a minute. A third trimester ban except for health of mother, if including the right to abort anencephalics and other fetuses with major anomalies not compatible with minimal function, is pretty much what we have at the moment.

I am as pro-choice as they come, but I am quite squeamish about allowing abortion of viable and moderately functional fetuses very late in gestation for reasons other than health. I’d consider pregnancy in any dependent minor to be appropriate health consideration, if only because parental consent laws and lack of funds make it hard for teens to get abortion earlier on. If parental consent and funding weren’t problems, I’d expect the 16+ teen girl to make up her mind in the first two trimesters, like any adult woman. Pregnancy in the very young (10 - 13) is a bad idea, and these kids aren’t thinking straight half the time - often serious denial early or even up to delivery. Sometime in the third trimester, I don’t know exactly when, but clearly by birth, the connection between pain at the spinal (reflex) level and pain as interpreted by the brain occurs. The newborn fairly quickly starts learning, with anticipation of comfort. I’d consider the 30 week gestation abortion (of neurologically normal fetus) to be inhumane at the level of lower mammal consciousness, and thus there should be a good reason why the abortion is done that late in gestation.

But wait - doesn’t this sound a whole lot like the rationale in Roe v Wade?

Comment #19: NancyP  on  10/16  at  03:40 PM

I couldn’t believe how big an asshole mccain looked like.

And then Andrea Mitchell couldn’t wait to declare him the winner “on points”

Well, you know, he was only a complete asshole to women. Not Americans.

I liked how Obama went for his water while McCain rambled on about “health.” I can’t decide whether he was thinking “I’ve lost three IQ points just from sitting next to this moron” or he was restraining himself from going into a victory dance and chanting “you just lost the election.”

Comment #20: Rick Massimo  on  10/16  at  03:46 PM

See, my mom is closer to the fence than she’ll admit (she’s not racist, but she can’t bring herself to vote for a Democrat because she is very pro-life, with some limited understanding of the complexity of the issue - and she doesn’t like McCain, either).  She’s been kind of steering clear of the election thing for the past few weeks, and I honestly think it’s because she doesn’t want to know any more and have to change her mind (she is not voting at all; I think my dad might pull for Obama - he dislikes McCain pretty intensely and likes Obama).

I wish she had been watching last night, fervently, but she didn’t, and that chance is effectively lost, because, while she would disagree that it would be legal at all, she understands logically the point that Obama made and would have been disgusted with McCain.

I really am grieving that, for her, because I don’t think she understands just how much the party she’s traditionally supported (although being disillusioned now) hates women, not just disregards, but HATES them, and that’s including (and perhaps especially) incest survivors like her - her health, mental and physical, means nothing to them; she shouldn’t have let her dad.

I’m just sorry, immensely.  Change is hard.

Comment #21: INTPagan  on  10/16  at  03:46 PM

I’m a dad to two wee ones thanks to an abortion done to preserve the health of Spouse.  I wonder how John McCain thinks I’d be better off without them?

Comment #22: Ron O.  on  10/16  at  03:48 PM

Could we stop talking about late term abortion as if women were beating down the door’s of planned parenthood so that they can experience the thrill of a partial-birth abortion?

If you honestly think that there are late-term abortions performed for reasons other than life or health, then you obviously have such a low opinion of women you shouldn’t be allowed into the softer side of Sears, much less be allowed to vote on laws about what we can do with our bodies.

And moreover, if you honestly think that there is an OB/GYN out there who would perform such a procedure, then you’re so divorced from the reality of OB/GYN fear of malpractice lawsuit (try talking to a childless woman seeking to be sterilized) that you probably think that OB/GYNs choose their practice because they want to see lots of pussy.

Comment #23: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/16  at  03:49 PM

We were all in shock at my place to see that gender gap.  Like holy shit a lot more men are still that sexist that they begrudge abortion rights kind of shock.  I would have never guessed.

That one pissed me off too.  I kept watching the ticker for the undecided men go up and up and I couldn’t believe it.  I wanted to personally smack each one of them.  Bunch of fucking bastards.  And McCain is the worst one.

Comment #24: ks  on  10/16  at  03:54 PM

The more McCain slathered on the contempt for women’s health and rights, the more undecided women tanked for him—-it might have been his lowest negatives of the night.  But men were actually liking it.  We were all in shock at my place to see that gender gap.

We noticed the same thing and all we could think was “who are these asshole men?”

Comment #25: Olivia  on  10/16  at  03:59 PM

There was also that quick seque to how much his life has been enriched by being a parent. Because his motive for being antichoice is that he just wants all those lying sluts to have enriched lives.

Comment #26: Molly, NYC  on  10/16  at  04:00 PM

RE: Indy

I had the same takeaway as you did re: supreme court nominations and the “no douchebag” part of it.  Obama will nominate justices that probably have liberal leanings, but will also be well accomplished.  We’ll see is McCain is willing to cast a vote for these qualified nominees or if their view on Roe v Wade makes them inherantly unqualified as he stated in the debate (but don’t worry, he doesn’t have a litmus test).

What I always find odd is that people claim they will be looking for “qualified judges” and do not take anything else into consideration.  What, do they have a giant Wheel O Qualified Judges they spin (a la The Price is Right) to pick as their nominee?  There is a reason conservative Presidents nominate conservative justices and liberal Presidents nominate liberal justices: because they think that view is better for America (or their own narrow interests, depending on how you want to parse the psychology).

At the end of the day two things are clear:

1)  McCain thinks Obama voted against confirming Justice Breyer in 1994
2)  Obama will do more to protect the rights of women (both in terms of health and economics) than J. Sidney “Air Quotes” McCain III

Comment #27: MDK  on  10/16  at  04:21 PM

Obama and the Socialist maniacs have finally revealed their real intentions. Obama has been faking like he is some kind of moderate while all along he intends to do all he can (his vision of “Change”) to institute Socialism. Given how little we know about this man other than his radical left connections (Wright, Ayers, ACORN Group, etc.), he might just be a communist. Obama’s Theft (Tax) Plan of “Spreading your Wealth around” is a failed strategy…it has failed over and over again in history…it lowers the standard of living. Obama has declared war on the “American Dream” of being successful as reflected by the accumulation of some wealth and he has formally welcomed in the era of open class warfare against wealth in America. As a People in a Nation for the People we need to do all that is possible to stop this radical leftist movement…ign me up for the American Resistance.  The Time is Now !!

Comment #28: Joe  on  10/16  at  04:27 PM

We just tried 8 years of tax cuts for the rich. Is everyone rich, yet? Oh, and how about that hallucinated wealth and job growth that just magnificently collapsed?

Comment #29: Matthew  on  10/16  at  04:35 PM

Oh my god it’s Joe the Plumber!

Comment #30: Ugly In Pink  on  10/16  at  04:37 PM

This supposedly happened to someone I knew when I was 16 or 17 (she was about the same age).  I can affirm some of the facts, like she was pregnant and got an abortion in the second trimester.  I heard the rest of the story from someone else (the would-have-been father).

A young woman gets pregnant.  She doesn’t have insurance.  She makes the rounds of abortion providers but can’t find one who will perform the abortion for her within her budget.  Because she finds out about the pregnancy late, and the bureaucracy moves so slowly, and she doesn’t have a car so there is no easy access to reproductive health services, she enters the second trimester.

She is coached by a friend to say, “if I have to have this baby I will kill myself.”

Medicare considers this to be a threat to her health, so she gets her abortion paid for.

This is the source of the air quotes around the mother’s health.  It’s based, of course, on deception that was CAUSED by the troglodytic world view that kept this woman from getting an abortion earlier on.

What I think all of us would prefer would be that she got good BC to begin with, learned early about her pregnancy, and was able to exercise her option to abort early.

Comment #31: oldfeminist  on  10/16  at  04:37 PM

@Joe: Hahahahahahaha…that is some excellent troll parodying.  A+!

Comment #32: Loomer  on  10/16  at  04:38 PM

Okay, I know that Joe is a parody of drooling, idiot wingnuttery, but is he like that on purpose, or is he just being himself?

Comment #33: Seraph  on  10/16  at  04:39 PM

I wonder if any of the fundies who embrace “sorrow in childbirth” for women have ever noticed that in the same passage it calls for men to have hard lives toiling the fields.

Oh, well THAT part is just a metaphor.

Comment #34: Notorious P.A.T.  on  10/16  at  04:40 PM

No, silly Notorious - it’s part of a different dispensation.  Aren’t you a good premillenial dispensationalist like everyone else?

Comment #35: Atheist Feminazi  on  10/16  at  04:45 PM

We noticed the same thing and all we could think was “who are these asshole men?”

Most people who are undecided at this point are largely (how to put this?) not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

Comment #36: Notorious P.A.T.  on  10/16  at  04:45 PM

Did anyone else get that same no-respect-for-women-even-my-running-mate vibe when he mentioned, for no particular reason, how “great” and what a “tough guy” Todd Palin is when he was dancing around the issue of Sarah Palins (lack of) qualifications for the Veep job?  What the hell was that aside all about?  Has he got some sort of man-crush on the dude?  Or is it more like, he totally doesn’t speak/can’t relate as a human being to Sarah, so he’s only chummy with her hubby?  I just immediately thought, “where the fuck did that come from and what in christ does it have to do with a FUCKIN thing they’re supposed to be discussing tonight?”....

Comment #37: thegoddessmelissa  on  10/16  at  04:58 PM

Joe - Give it up man. You know what you’re saying is totally loony-tunes. If you honestly don’t—then go get your head examined.

Because if a moderate democrat like Obama is a “socialist”—well, then just about anyone who thinks taxation is a legitimate function of government is. That would be just about every elected official in the US.

But I doubt you’re nuts. Just sad & desperate. Distraught that a Black may become president. Dismayed that your angry-daddy god has forsaken you. Poor dumb Joe.

Comment #38: wapsie  on  10/16  at  05:05 PM

I’d consider pregnancy in any dependent minor to be appropriate health consideration, if only because parental consent laws and lack of funds make it hard for teens to get abortion earlier on.

Considering that most girls under 14-15 are physically not up to the task of bearing a child, I think it’s probably pretty easy to convince a judge to grant a twelve year old a late term abortion.  Childbirth in a girl so young would probably lead to all manner of health problems down the road.

FWIW, and this is NOT NOT NOT at all to dignify McCain’s remarks with even a shred of sympathy, I wonder if his “stance” has something to do with how abortion worked prior to Roe.  Via life/health clauses, in some states women were able to get abortions for mental health reasons. 

Of course you usually had to have multiple doctors arguing your case before a judge, and they had to make you sound really, really crazy.  This left it wide open for the judge to order all manner of other stipulations and requirements, and there would usually be public records to the effect of OMG This Girl Is Fricking NUTS-OLA!  It could also have a future impact on your ability to have autonomy over your own life (including the ability to retain custody of other children or have a child later in life). 

This understanding, of course, is extremely problematic because it compares a system where abortion was unavailable to a system where first trimester abortion is widely available, second trimester is possible in some cases, and a judge’s input is only needed in extreme cases.  Which means you probably have way, way less people willing to pretend to have a health problem they don’t really have, even if it means they may lose all autonomy for the rest of their lives.  Because only people who have a real issue wait until the third trimester to seek an abortion.

Comment #39: The Opoponax  on  10/16  at  05:07 PM

Yeah, the mention of Todd Palin was very strange and strangely timed.  And I also was gobsmacked by the “men” line going up and up as McCain meandered around issuing tough talk about various social issues.  Any chance those same men really dig Todd Palin?

Comment #40: FlipYrWhig  on  10/16  at  05:09 PM

Did anyone else get that same no-respect-for-women-even-my-running-mate vibe when he mentioned, for no particular reason, how “great” and what a “tough guy” Todd Palin is when he was dancing around the issue of Sarah Palins (lack of) qualifications for the Veep job?  What the hell was that aside all about?  Has he got some sort of man-crush on the dude?  Or is it more like, he totally doesn’t speak/can’t relate as a human being to Sarah, so he’s only chummy with her hubby?  I just immediately thought, “where the fuck did that come from and what in christ does it have to do with a FUCKIN thing they’re supposed to be discussing tonight?”....

Yes, why yes I did, and I said almost verbatim what you said.

Then again, it’s kind of relevant, since The First Dude would be running the country in the event of an unfortunate circumstance - Sarah’s just there to swing the part of the electorate that wants a VPILF.  And it worked for the GILF faction in Alaska, too!

Comment #41: Atheist Feminazi  on  10/16  at  05:12 PM

McCain dismissing legislation that requires women to be paid fairly as a giveaway to trial lawyers.

This is really amazing, because if laws requiring fair wages will result in a windfall for lawyers, then that means unfair wages are rampant.  (As if we didn’t know that)  More than that, it means that McCain knows unfair labor practices are rampant, and he wants to protect the companies who are being unfair and not the women who are being discriminated against.

I mean, I understand that that fits the Republican world view of affirmative action—no woman or minority is as qualified as a man regardless of education or experience—therefore any woman or minority in any position is taking it from a more qualified man and is by definition of gender or race less qualified.

This view is why he’s befuddled by the pullback from selecting Palin.  Of COURSE she’s unqualified: she’s female.  Why would anyone expect her to be qualified? 

It’s just amazing to hear him actually say that a fair wage law is a giveaway to lawyers.  Companies shouldn’t pay women the same as men because they are never and can never be as qualified or deserving of the same pay.  They are only there for “affirmative action” reasons.


——
BTW, Tiffany Campbell is all kinds of awesome.  What can forced-gestationists say to her situation except to call her a liar?  They can’t handle that much reality, nor grant women the right to face such situations as adults.

Comment #42: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/16  at  05:14 PM

The First Dude is WAY involved in governing Alaska.  He attends meetings and is copied in on emails. 

Sarah is a good Dominionist and submits to her man.

McCain hates women, as I wrote above, and expects the c*nts to submit to their men.  Of COURSE he’s going to talk and relate to Todd!  Sarah submits to Todd’s authority in all things, so Todd’s her real boss.  Sarah is just a woman after all, and therefore disqualified for anything but childbirth.

Comment #43: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/16  at  05:19 PM

It was sort of weird of Obama to bring up the Lily Ledbetter situation when he was asked about abortion

I thought it fit in perfectly. The courts need to be ‘the shop for justice’ and the last, best defense of our rights. Ledbetter and Roe were woven into a broader fabric of a vision of a US committed to civil democracy, equality, and justice. At least that’s what I glimpsed right before “health” of the mother was pissed all over the fabric.

Comment #44: apm  on  10/16  at  05:37 PM

And then Andrea Mitchell couldn’t wait to declare him the winner “on points”

If it wasnt’ for the snap polls she’s no doubt would have been carving his name in granite.
At least those make it slightly more difficult for the right-wing pundits to completely make shit up.
Sorta.

Comment #45: Danica Lefse Queen  on  10/16  at  05:57 PM

I was actually quite pleased that Obama brought up Ledbetter. It could just be how I interpreted it at the time, but I heard this:

I think that it’s important for judges to understand that if a woman is out there trying to raise a family, trying to support her family, and is being treated unfairly, then the—the court has to stand up if nobody else will, and that’s the kind of judge that I want.

as a summing-up of both positions, Ledbetter and Roe, rather than of just Ledbetter. I was sitting there watching and just went “...wow. that’s really elegant.”

Now that I look at it again, maybe not, but I liked it.

Comment #46: Rebecca  on  10/16  at  05:58 PM

Or what apm said. wink

Comment #47: Rebecca  on  10/16  at  06:02 PM

This view is why he’s befuddled by the pullback from selecting Palin.  Of COURSE she’s unqualified: she’s female.  Why would anyone expect her to be qualified?

Exactly.  I don’t know why it took me so long to figure out that particular weird tic of the right wing, but they really do think that no woman or minority could possibly be as qualified—much less more qualified—than a white man, so any job that goes to one of “them” must have been handed out unfairly.

And it’s not just jobs.  Look at them whine about how Michelle and Barack Obama stole their spots at top universities from a more deserving white person.  Because, of course, all white people should be accommodated first.

These people need remedial kindergarten with a careful explanation about how only giving stuff to your friends and not bringing enough for the whole class is not fair.

Comment #48: Mnemosyne  on  10/16  at  06:13 PM

I don’t know why it took me so long to figure out that particular weird tic of the right wing, but they really do think that no woman or minority could possibly be as qualified—much less more qualified—than a white man, so any job that goes to one of “them” must have been handed out unfairly.

It’s funny, isn’t it, how hard it is to understand that world view?  They are racist and sexist because they really and truly believe that women and minorities are inherently less qualified and less capable.

No matter the evidence, only white men are really capable of doing a good job at anything.  And if a woman or minority “appears” more qualified, it’s only because white men gave them a hand up and are manipulating things behind the scenes.

It’s hatred.  It doesn’t go away.  That’s why I keep saying “lance this boil”—they need to know that their hatred is WRONG and that they are LOSERS.  Keep on believin’, just know that you will be social pariahs for your un-american behavior and that no sane people will want to be in your company.

Comment #49: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/16  at  06:33 PM

Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes: Thank you.  I hadn’t put that together before, but you are absolutely correct.  The question I’d been asking all along was “why did he pass over the Republican women who are much more qualified than Palin (ie: Hutchinson, Dole, etc)?” 

And the answer, of course, is that from his POV there’s no such thing as a qualified woman; therefore, since they’re all equally unqualified, go for the one most likely to attract VPILF voters.

Comment #50: sotonohito  on  10/16  at  06:50 PM

he openly accused women who get later term abortions of lying about their health problems to get out of pregnancy.

But he did exercise admirable restraint by not calling them “cunts,” as he called Cindy after she made light of his receding hairline.

Comment #51: Frederick  on  10/16  at  07:00 PM

The South Dakota video and the statement by Tiffany Campbell at feministing.com brought me to tears.  Powerful stuff.  McCain is such an asshole.

Comment #52: Frederick  on  10/16  at  07:08 PM

When even Chris Matthews calls you on your misogyny, that’s it.

Comment #53: J Neo Marvin  on  10/16  at  08:00 PM

But he did exercise admirable restraint by not calling them “cunts,” as he called Cindy after she made light of his receding hairline.

he couldn’t use the word since he made a big stink about the T-shirts using that word in reference to Palin (apparently, it’s gentlemanly to call his wife that word but a horrific act of Obamaistic negative campaigning when the word is used against his soul mate)

Comment #54: ol cranky  on  10/16  at  08:23 PM

Can someone help me here I been trying to explain to some members of my family (the a**hat side) why late term abortions are necessary. They keep arguing that if the baby can be taken out and put on life support why not just do that and put it up for adoption or something. I don’t know what to say back except try to fight with the talking points I learned from other prochoice voices but they won’t listen they are like a broken record with this if the baby can be put on life support thing. I want to slap them but can’t since they live so far away and that I am grateful for. Any help out ther for me dealing with these people? Much appreciation for any responses. Peace, Liz.

Comment #55: Liz Barnes  on  10/16  at  08:49 PM

They keep arguing that if the baby can be taken out and put on life support why not just do that and put it up for adoption or something.

More often than not, a late-term abortion is performed when a fetus is lacking something keeping it from living normally. Such as, say, a brain.

Comment #56: annejumps  on  10/16  at  09:04 PM

I know my response sounds flip. But late-term abortions usually take place because something has gone terribly wrong with a wanted pregnancy. The idea your relatives have that a late-term abortion should basically be equivalent to a C-section has no basis in reality.

Gretchen Voss’ story is sadly typical. I would point your relatives to it.

Comment #57: annejumps  on  10/16  at  09:09 PM

Liz, it sounds like you’ve run into the objection that it’s a person, so we should do everything we can to save its life.

First, most late-term abortions are for nonviable fetuses.  They can’t be put on life support.  So it’s not even an option for these.

Of the ones which maybe could survive, why would we spend millions of dollars keeping one unwanted fetus alive (don’t doubt that it would take this much) when already-born people go without health care?

Right now, we don’t spend every penny we can to provide health care for poor people, or those with no health insurance.  We let them die because they can’t afford medication or treatment or surgery or doctors or nursing care that would make their lives longer and more comfortable. 

Wouldn’t our money be better spent on people who actually already have feelings and lives, who have families and loved ones who share their pain and suffering?

Comment #58: oldfeminist  on  10/16  at  09:10 PM

They keep arguing that if the baby can be taken out and put on life support why not just do that and put it up for adoption or something.

I almost hate to suggest this, but since they think it’s perfectly fair to wave pictures of bloody fetuses around, have you ever shown them pictures of babies born with anencephaly (warning: disturbing) or other fatal birth defects? 

I can’t search for it right now, but there was a story printed in (I think) Ms. magazine a few years ago by a woman whose fetus died but she didn’t miscarry naturally, so she had to find someone to do a late-term abortion before the body started to rot inside her.  Because, yes, what’s being aborted is the pregnancy, not the fetus, so you have to have an abortion even if the fetus is already dead.  (In her case, the fetus got tangled up in its umbilical cord inside the uterus and strangled itself to death.)

Comment #59: Mnemosyne  on  10/16  at  09:10 PM

While I was waiting for my burger, I was looking at the LA Times, front page, above the fold (I’m in Pasadena).  I was extremely pleased that the reporter chose to put McSame’s misogyny front and center in a debate description, and described his attitude very well too.

Comment #60: Ms Kate  on  10/16  at  09:17 PM

Liz, they’re not usually far enough along in the pregnancy for that even to be an option.  Even if you’re in the 25-26 week old region, the vast majority of preemies die.  So putting a woman with already compromised health through an induction to bring a baby into the world that will probably die is too high a risk. 

Your family also has to ask themselves why they think doctors are so untrustworthy.  And why they think so little of women that they think women who have gotten 5 or more months into a pregnancy would shrug it off so easily.  A lot of women who have late term abortions have already decorated the nursery.  I would point this out to them.

Comment #61: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/16  at  09:21 PM

Your family also has to ask themselves why they think doctors are so untrustworthy. And why they think so little of women that they think women who have gotten 5 or more months into a pregnancy would shrug it off so easily.

Right. It’s as though the only difference between an induction/C-section and a late-term abortion is someone’s inexplicably cruel whim.

Comment #62: annejumps  on  10/16  at  10:16 PM

And then Andrea Mitchell couldn’t wait to declare him the winner “on points”

That’s why I always watch debates on C-SPAN. No nattering heads making instant, idiotic conclusions.

Comment #63: Bitter Scribe  on  10/16  at  10:35 PM

For me, this was one of McCain’s most sickening moments. The other was when he rolled his eyes and grunted disdainfully after Obama mentioned the murder of labor activists in Columbia. Even if you agree with him ideologically…how could you vote for such an ASSHOLE?

Comment #64: Bear  on  10/16  at  11:23 PM

Thanks for the suggestions in the comments, even though I didn’t ask for them. They are very helpful, as is Tiffany’s story. Sometimes I end up being the one who tries to (nicely) educate people who are stuck in anti-choice framing, especially about late-term abortions.

Comment #65: Bethynyc  on  10/17  at  12:10 AM

If they put the delivered fetus on life support, then in Texas the hospital would be justified in pulling the plug because of its inability to pay. Go figure.

Comment #66: paul  on  10/17  at  12:17 AM

If you honestly think that there are late-term abortions performed for reasons other than life or health, then you obviously have such a low opinion of women you shouldn’t be allowed into the softer side of Sears, much less be allowed to vote on laws about what we can do with our bodies.

Yes.  This.

I’ve read women’s descriptions of their experiences with late-term abortion.  It sounds incredibly painful.  Incredibly.  I don’t remember where I read it, but recently I read a woman describing how she screamed in pain as her cervix was being dilated.  I’ve had an IUD inserted and that hurt—I can imagine why she was screaming.

A woman who is five or six months pregnant generally has a large “bump” and has already been through a shitload of physical changes.  It’s just not going to happen that a woman shows up and says “hey, even though everyone knows I’m pregnant, and even though I happily put up with the morning sickness and the fatigue and various other symptoms for months, and even though I’ve probably felt the baby kicking at this point, and even though it will hurt like fuck, I’ve decided I don’t want a baby after all so please abort my healthy pregnancy”.

Comment #67: killjoy  on  10/17  at  12:47 AM

Thanks everyone I really appreciate the help. I think I get so emotional that’s it is hard to make my point after awhile when fighting with these people for an hour or so. I know all the facts that were stated above but it really is hard especially when you have had an abortion at any stage not to get upset at people who air quote our health. I have found that once you have had an abortion regardless of the circumstances when people battle over it you get angry when people want to outlaw it or simply disregard your health. So thanks again for helping me keep a cool head with these outrageous family members of mine and fight with facts. Peace, Liz.

Comment #68: Liz Barnes  on  10/17  at  11:25 AM

Agreed, Killjoy - by the point in the pregnancy, usually about five months, where you start to feel kicking, the idea of the pregnancy being a person definitely solidifies in the mind, and it’s pretty hard to conceptualize someone just casually walking into the abortion clinic and asking for one on a whim.

“Eh, I don’t want to be pregnant any more today; you have any openings this hour?”

Seriously.

And, yeah, they’re not lying - it hurts like hell to have your cervix scraped (that can help induce labor, and I screamed when that was done at the end of my first pregnancy), and I had an IUD inserted (when I was NOT on my period, due to scheduling issues and an irregular period) and that hurt like shit, too. 

Maybe they actually want all women to like pain, too, and they think we’re all masochists and that’s why we get pregnant, wait six months, and then hop over to the abortionist to get our annual dose of misery, and then throw abortion parties afterwards.  What the fuck is wrong with these people?

Comment #69: Atheist Feminazi  on  10/17  at  11:43 AM

Liz—I think it’s also important to remember that when a fetus is viable and healthy, and the woman’s life is at risk, they absolutely do exactly what your relatives are talking about.  Exactly that—deliver the baby, and then give baby and mama the health care they need so both are ok.  This is a birth, not an abortion, and considering essentially all 3rd trimester abortions are for wanted pregnancies, of course the woman would deliver a child than have it aborted.

Comment #70: roro80  on  10/17  at  05:24 PM

Toxemia and placental abruption off the top of my head.  If the mother’s blood pressure is incredibly, dangerously high and nothing the doctors do can bring it down, the pregnancy needs to end.  If the placenta breaks away partially or wholly, the mother can ‘bleed out’ and die if the pregnancy isn’t ended.  Those are emergency situations, and there’s not usually much time for those involved to make decisions, much less have to wait around for a justice to weigh in on it.

I generally believe it’s better that when a pregnancy ends at least one of the participants remain alive.

The vice principal at my son’s school had a baby die in utero.  Should she have to carry it until it rots and possibly kills her?  Or is it better to give her a “partial birth abortion” so she no longer has a dead baby inside her and she and her husband can hold the body of their much wanted, but very dead child?

Discovery Health even had something on about ‘stone babies’ once.  A fetus that dies in utero and is not expelled can be encased in calcium, ‘fossilizing’ it.  That’s not good, and it destroys any future chance a woman might have to get pregnant again.

And then there’s Tiffany Campbell, who had another Discovery Health special condition—twin to twin transfusion, where identical twins share a blood supply and one twin becomes parasitic to the other.  Should she have let both babies die?  Or is it better that she terminated the pregnancy of the nonviable baby and preserved the health of the other?

These are all shitty situations.  They are incredibly difficult choices to make, even when you know you’ve made the correct choice.  Anyone who thinks the government belongs in the middle of practicing medicine is either ignorant of the real risks of childbirth/pregnancy or just doesn’t give a damn about the pregnant woman.

Comment #71: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/18  at  12:09 AM
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