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Next entry: Sex addiction and avoiding gender essentialism Previous entry: Dehumanizing OWS, dehumanizing the 99%

Measuring skulls

Andrew Sullivan is back at it again, kindly reminding us that despite his support of Obama, who he really is never lurks far from the surface. Yep, he's defending The Bell Curve again, relying on the same tricks---mainly leaning on the assumption that the audience doesn't have time to do the background research, which is true enough and a reason why journalists really shouldn't promote pseudo-science---and Ta-Nehisis Coates is pushing back, albeit in a way that far more generous than I could ever feel towards Sullivan's intentions. It's really upsetting to see these redonkulous theories of race and IQ continue to be trotted out 30 years after biologist Stephen Jay Gould published The Mismeasure of Man, neatly outlining the history of these kinds of studies, the arguments for what kind of scientific proof would actually be required (hint: much higher than need-to-believe sorts like Sullivan accept), and the real-life results of putting a faux scientific veneer on old-fashioned racist and classist arguments about how oppressed people aren't oppressed but simply inferior. (Forced sterilization is a direct example, but basically all continued institutional racist oppression is rationalized by the "it's not the oppression, it's that they're not good enough" argument). There was even a 1996 reprint that kindly put to bed The Bell Curve's attempts to update the hoary old IQ studies of old. Ta-Nehisi addresses the ahistorical aspects of Sullivan's.....I hate to call the "arguments", so I'm going to say evidence-free whinings about the P.C. police preventing scientists from demonstrating what he clearly thinks they could, which is that black people are inferior as a group. 

With that said, Andrew's ahistorical approach to race and intelligence has always amazed. The contention, for instance, that "research is not about helping people; it's about finding out stuff," may well be true in some limited sense. But it's never been true, in any sense, of race and intelligence. In the 19th century helping out white people (however that is defined) was very much the point of intelligence research. Into the early 20th century, the rise of eugenics was equally linked the field to the advancement of "people." Even the intelligence theorists whom Andrew, himself, has advanced over the years are motivated by a desire to presumably help people, if only in the form of deciding how a society should expend its limited resources.

Advocates of the "p.c. egalitarianism" theory, such as Andrew, evidently believe that the notion that black people are dumber than whites is a cutting edge theory, as opposed to a long-held tenet of slave-holders and white supremacists. They present themselves as bold-truth tellers who will not bow to "liberal creationists." In fact they are espousing firmly established views that date back to the very founding of this country. These views did not emerge after decades of failure of social policy. Indeed they picked up right where their old advocates left off; within five years of the passage of the Civil Rights Act, Arthur Jensen was convinced that black people were intellectually addled.

I'll add a couple other points. Sullivan also neglects to remember---despite his claims to have done his research, he doesn't seem to have read Gould's masterpiece on this topic---that in addition to trying to find IQ differences between established racial categories, IQ studies of old targeted ethnic groups such as Italians. I'm sure Sullivan wouldn't find it so scintillating and provocative if I argued that science demonstrating that his Irish heritage puts him in a group that is morally and intellectually inferior to the groups the compose my heritage (French, German, Welsh), but the kind of studies he's so enamored of would have, in the past, done exactly such a thing. That the supposedly agenda-free researchers have stopped bothering to measure white ethnic groups against each other tells you everything you need to know about Sullivan's silly claims that this is about pure science and not about manipulating research to prove a pre-determined conclusion about people the researchers feel racism towards. 

Or to put it more simply, since the Irish and Italians became white, interest in finding "scientific" evidence that they're inferior people has completely dried up. 

I'm not a scientist, so please take my thoughts on this with that knowledge in mind. But I do love science, and have spent my time making fun of the endless stream of research that purports to find that women are inferior---though often by different measures than IQ, though that's a new development that has arisen no doubt as women have gained educational opportunities and can easily equal or even beat men as a group on IQ tests---so I think I can offer a little advice to people reading claims that black people are stupider as a group and are skeptical that research really could prove such a thing. Here's some questions to keep in mind as you read these debates. 

*What are the researchers measuring? The claim here is that "intelligence" is being measured. But what's the definition of "intelligence"? The assumptions employed by Sullivan and the researchers he champions are that intelligence is a single, fixed entity that in innate at birth. Is there evidence to support this contention? There's other ways to think about intelligence that have more evidence for them in the real world. For instance, I tend to do very well on the kind of IQ tests that we're talking about. I'm also quick with a joke, perceptive when it comes to the psychology of complex human systems, and adept at manipulating my first and only language, English. I'm decent at basic math skills. But I'm bad at learning new languages, and dealing with complex but abstract systems such as anything running a computer beyond the most obvious level. So am I "intelligent"? Most people would say yes, but if thrown into a situation I don't understand, the answer is absolutely not. Nor are any of my intelligences fixed in time---I could be having a bad day and be unable to crack a joke. Or I could suddenly have a burst of inspiration/a lot of coffee and dedicate myself to understanding something that's usually beyond me. Nor are any of these intelligences innate. It's probably true that if I had been taught a second language from the cradle, I could be bilingual, for instance. If I'd been socialized as male, I may have had more confidence with computers, as well.

Now defenders of IQ tests would say that it's measuring potential, and would say that because I'm "intelligent", I could pick up say, computer programming, faster than someone who isn't. This I find hard to swallow, because I've met people who were, say, swift at picking up how to play musical instruments (which I can't do) who don't perform nearly as well as I do on standardized tests like the IQ test. Additionally, I've never really seen any evidence to suggest that the IQ test captures potential instead of one's current ability to take IQ tests, which is why my scores graduallly improved every time I took tests like it. What changed was the context and how much I'd learned. This has been demonstrated in labs, as well---the brain is not a fixed entity by any means, but is constantly moving stuff around depending on context.

Before we even begin to measure, innate, fixed intelligence, we need to prove that there is such a thing. Which would require being able to sort out the innate, fixed-ness of it from factors such as education, stimulation, and nutrition. We'd also have to account for the fact that some people are really good at some things and not so much at others, and explain what the scientific reasons are to say X is more "intelligent" than Y. If you assume it takes more intelligence to write for The Daily Beast than fix a car, are you absolutely sure that it's not simply classism that's driving your assumptions? Where's your evidence?

*What tools are they using to measure it? We assume IQ tests measure intelligence, because that's what they've always purported to do. Which is why I really recommend reading Gould's book, because he does a great job of showing how, no matter how test writers tried to rearrange the test, it never really got past measuring acquired skills and knowledge to measure some sort of deep-down intelligence that's unaffected by acquired skills and knowledge. This is important, because if the IQ test is measuring acquired skills and knowledge does absolutely nothing to support the racist contention that differing outcomes for social groups is about innate intelligence and not limited opportunities. 

In addition to demonstrating that an IQ test measures some deep-down innate intelligence---which they've never been able to do, since the very existence of innate intelligence hasn't been demonstrated---they would have to prove that what they're measuring has more impact on eventual life outcomes than socialization, opportunity and education. Since dumbasses like George W. Bush can become President by coasting on privilege, I think that's probably going to be beyond even the most strained rationalizations of the most devoted racists. 

I realize that the authors of The Bell Curve did try to hedge on this by suggesting socialization is part of intelligence, but they still grounded their argument in the belief that innate intelligence is a natural limitation, and that it is the primary factor in how well racial groups do against each other in the economic and educational marketplaces. That's something of a red herring. Even if you think "intelligence" is only say, 50% fixed, you're still arguing that there's a fixed, innate intelligence. You still have to prove that contention. 

To be fair, since I'm a fan of the idea that there's no single definition of intelligence, I'm going to guess that Bush is a pretty good golfer. 

*What categories are they comparing in their research? When IQ studies first came into vogue, assumptions about who and who wasn't in the category we now consider "white" were much different, with Italians and Jews being considered tremendously different than Anglos. Which is to say, race and ethnicity are social and legal categories, but they can't really be understood realistically as biological categories. (According to Wikipedia, the authors of The Bell Curve tried to skip over this problem by claiming that previous studies finding Jews and white ethnics were less intelligent were nothing but folklore, but in fact, there's a strong historical record to prove otherwise.) All the problems inherent to treating men and women as discrete categories who can be meaningfully compared on factors like "emotionalism" and "horniness", as if we didn't have more in common biologically than not? That goes quadruple for treating race categories that way. Because we put a lot of social worth into things like skin color doesn't mean that nature agrees. If we chose as a species to highlight foot length instead of skin color, we're probably be seeing IQ claims correlated with shoe size instead of race. 

I'm not pulling one of those irritating white liberal "race is just a color" things out of my pocket. I accept race as a category and am a firm believer that social categories matter as much, if not more, than biological categories. I'm just arguing that it's important to know the difference. If you're struggling to understand the difference, consider people who have parents of differing racial categories, such as Obama. If you assume race is a biologial category, he's uncategorizable. If you assume it's a social category---as I do, and as most of us do, if you really think about it---he's black. He identifies as black and is identified by others as black. Most of us have a more diverse ancestry than you'd initially realize, making the notion of biological race categories even shakier. In addition, applying the racial categories that have developed in the United States to the world at large, which has a wide variety of ideas about how to categorize people, reveals the limits of conflating social categories with biological ones. In the U.S., for instance, we identify as large and diverse group of people from a large part of the largest continent in the world as "Asian", but I don't imagine they see themselves as a racially homogenous group.

*Is their hypothesis falsifiable? This is getting into the most science-y part of the scientific questions for laymen, and in most cases it might be more than the average reader can take on. But I do think there's one thing to consider for ordinary people looking at this debate: Do the people making the claims of intellectual inferiority back down when their claims are disproved? Or do they hedge, trying to throw up a lot of distracting complications to make their work impenetrable for ordinary people, and otherwise do anything but let go of their theory? I particularly think it's important to watch and see if someone with a racial inferiority theory tries to get you into the weeds by chasing down red herrings instead of dealing with the central arguments and the evidence for them. They're not interested in finding truth so much as defending their hypothesis. (Sullivan does this by saying, "No one is arguing that "that black people are dumber than white," just that the distribution of IQ is slightly different among different racial populations, and these differences also hold true for all broad racial groups..." Which is a way of saying, "If I say black people are dumber than white using bigger words, that will create a larger and more headache-inducing debate that will drive most of you off in frustration." That's not allowing your hypothesis could be falsified by any stretch.) 

In other words, if they're striving to make their claims as complex-sounding and headache-inducing as possible, instead of putting effort towards making their claims and their evidence clear and understandable, that's a giant red flag. They're not trying to invite criticism like proper scientists should, but trying to put a wall up around their ideas to protect them from it. 

Look out, too, for them putting you on the defensive. That's not how scientific theorizing works. It's like court: the burden of proof is on the prosecution. They are going to try to claim that the burden of proof is on those who think it's not obvious that black people are inherently inferior, but since we're not the ones making previously un-evidenced claims (that intelligence is fixed and innate, that IQ tests meaningfully measure it, that racial groups are distinct biological categories), it's not. If they try to shift the burden of proof or make their ideas harder and not easier to understand, that's about protecting the theory and not subjecting it to rigorous criticism. 

**************

Now, by bringing up these questions, I'm not trying to come up with a definitive answer, though I think it's utterly clear what my opinion is. I'm not interested in playing a game of concealing my point of view on these things, because that only contributes to an atmosphere of bad faith that has infected this debate from the beginning. For which I blame the pro-racism side, because they strike a bad faith pose of being merely interested in scientific discourse, even though there's no real reason to think that disinterested scientific research would move in a direction of using inadequate tools to measure ill-defined traits amongst groups that are genuinely hard to categorize using biological measures. But I think that their bad faith pose can cause people of good faith to engage on that level with them, and I hope keeping these four questions in mind will keep you grounded when dealing with an issue that has a whole lot of ill-intentioned hand-waving going on. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:06 AM • (119) Comments

Sully is a racist fuckwit obsessed with arbitrary hierarchy who discovered that torture was bad when Bush signed an antigay bill.  The fact that he supports Obama is one of the most sure signs that Obama is a pro-oligarchy President who is sure to fail.

Comment #1: Punditus Maximus  on  11/29  at  11:33 AM

Every time I start to get comfortable at Sullivan’s place, he lays this buffalo chip on the coffee table, and I remember that I have to read him more critically.  It’s a useful corrective, because he can lull you into a false sense of security with all his Obama love.

Comment #2: dopus dei  on  11/29  at  11:42 AM

Brace yourself for a bunch of comments quoting a recent study to say Gould was wrong about everything and the negroes really are retarded because science says it.

Comment #3: Baruk  on  11/29  at  11:46 AM

(Forced sterilization is a direct example, but basically all continued institutional racist oppression is rationalized by the “it’s not the oppression, it’s that they’re not good enough” argument)

Of all things, the new Star Wars MMO reminded me of this a couple days ago. The Sith Inquisitor storyline has you playing a slave who has a chance to become a sith, but your guide makes it clear that he thinks you’re incapable of making it, unlike Ffon. He’s so sure that you’ll fail that he gives you missions that (he thinks) are impossible, while giving Ffon easier assignments. (This backfires when you return with vital information that Ffon has already been sent ahead without. Talk about karma.)

Which feeds back to my usual question on stuff like this—if the people in question really are inferior, why do we need to throw roadblocks in their way? Let them fail on their own. Anything else just projects fear that they may be as good (or better) than you are. Which I suspect is the primary force behind such logic—people are threatened by the idea that they may not be as ‘good’ as they think they are.

Comment #4: Jayn Newell  on  11/29  at  11:57 AM

if the people in question really are inferior, why do we need to throw roadblocks in their way? Let them fail on their own. Anything else just projects fear that they may be as good (or better) than you are.

This only applies if you feel any kind of obligation to acknowledge reality. If you’re happy to live in your own little bubble of rationalizations, the only thing you need to worry about is that bubble being popped. Yeah, women and black people might be smarter than you, but if you don’t have to think about that or be reminded of it, you win anyway.

Comment #5: junk science  on  11/29  at  12:12 PM

Also, how smart can they be when you’re the one who gets to set the tests and put down the roadblocks? If they were so smart, they’d be in power, and they wouldn’t be obligated to put up with your bullshit.

Comment #6: junk science  on  11/29  at  12:17 PM

The thing is, even *if* there’s a biologically innate characteristic “intelligence”, it is only partially genetic; it can be heavily modified against by circumstances.

A thought experiment: we have genetically engineered two twins to be Super Geniuses. These twin babies are genetically programmed to have Superior Minds and be the next Einstein or Hawking. Then we implant one in a middle-class surrogate mother who has access to health care and good nutrition, can take time off work when she needs to for her health or her child’s, and who lives in a modern house that she owns and can afford to renovate when she needs to; implant the other in a working-class surrogate mother who works two jobs and still can barely make the rent on a slum apartment where the lead paint is peeling off the walls and there’s toxic mold in the bathroom. Working-class mom might be smart and might work her ass off to get her prenatal vitamins, but she has no health insurance and she can’t take time off work so she gets almost no real pre-natal care, she doesn’t get enough sleep, she doesn’t get to breastfeed, and she lives in a home that’s full of brain-damaging poisons that can harm her baby, and she *knows* it but she really hasn’t got much hope of changing the situation.

Are both kids going to grow up to be Super Geniuses, or is Slum Baby going to eat some lead paint chips and end up retarded, hyperactive, or with other brain disabilities that severely interfere with her ability to be a Super Genius? Odds are, Middle Class Baby is the one who’s going to grow up to win the Nobel Prize, and Slum Baby, even if she successfully beats the odds and *doesn’t* inhale lead paint, poison her brain with the toxic mold in the bathroom, get beaten up so many times by Mom’s boyfriend that it causes brain damage, get fed sub-standard nutrition her whole childhood and end up with a less healthy brain, or any of the other roadblocks that would interfere with her biological intelligence levels… still will probably have to jump through so many other hoops than Middle Class Baby that no one will ever recognize her as having equal intelligence to her long-lost twin sister.

We make our poor people live in places that literally poison them. Even if biological intelligence is a thing that exists, even if it has a large genetic component, how would you ever control for the fact that it’s so easy to damage with environmental poisons that we give poor people no protection from?

Comment #7: Alara J Rogers  on  11/29  at  12:23 PM

Which feeds back to my usual question on stuff like this—if the people in question really are inferior, why do we need to throw roadblocks in their way? Let them fail on their own. Anything else just projects fear that they may be as good (or better) than you are. Which I suspect is the primary force behind such logic—people are threatened by the idea that they may not be as ‘good’ as they think they are.

This sums it up exactly.  Minorities in America already have enough obstacles to overcome, not the least of which is the lingering racism in our society.  How would learning that they (or any other persecuted group) score a few less points on average on IQ tests possibly help?  What would we change about how we treat individuals, who could have any level of intelligence, high or low?

Comment #8: Dave Fried  on  11/29  at  12:24 PM

“I’m sure Sullivan wouldn’t find it so scintillating and provocative if I argued that science demonstrating that his Irish heritage puts him in a group that is morally and intellectually inferior to the groups the compose my heritage (French, German, Welsh), but the kind of studies he’s so enamored of would have, in the past, done exactly such a thing.”

This is the thing that bugs me so much about people like Andrew Sullivan, Pat Buchanan, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly (wow, there’s like some sort of trend there…) acting all racist, when it was not that long ago that their surnames (whether they were really Irish ethnics or not) would have guaranteed they were treated as second-class (or worse) right-out-of-the-gate.

There is a reason why the class of people who traditionally ran America, and largely still do today, are called WASPs: White, Anglo-Saxon (to exclude the Irish and the Scots), Protestants (to exclude Catholics, who were largely Irish and/or Scottish).

When you know your forebears were arbitrarily treated like scum because of their surnames, accents, and other cultural baggage — discounting individuals because of the group they are perceived to belong to and not for who they are as individuals — why would you turn around and do the same thing to other people?  (Another excellent example of this sort of thing is Michelle “In Defense of Internment” Malkin, Fillipina-but-honorary-WASP because she shits on brown people with the best of them…)

Sad…

Comment #9: MikeEss  on  11/29  at  12:30 PM

This is the point I always bring up when someone references this ridiculous book. While it might have taken hold among the mainstream media and casual racists, you know who never bought into this crap? People in gifted education, like my mother. When IQ tests are part of what you do for a living, you recognize their limitations as a measurement tool and you’re intimately familiar with the myriad of things that can throw off an individual’s score. There are countless articles in academic journals about this, and a certain level of anxiety about misidentifying kids who could benefit from gifted enrichment programs because of the problems inherent in testing.

Comment #10: Liz212  on  11/29  at  12:31 PM

@Alara: One flaw with that experiment: By the time Middle Class Baby is five, Middle Class Mom has been laid off, lost her insurance, and Middle Class Baby is now Slum Baby Two.

I’ve always found The Bell Curve and its ilk amusing in a horrible sort of way. We can’t define “intelligence” or “race” with anything like scientific rigor, but we can demonstrate not only a correlation but a causative relationship between them? Sure, and diluting medicine makes it stronger.

Comment #11: Froborr  on  11/29  at  12:32 PM

Amanda, this research is 4 years old, but it seems to suggest that intelligence isn’t a single entity because it’s the product of several brain areas working in concert.

Like memory, human intelligence is probably not confined to a single area in the brain, but is instead the result of multiple brain areas working in concert, a new review of research suggests.

The review by Richard Haier of the University of California , Irvine , and Rex Jung of the University of New Mexico proposes a new theory that identifies areas in the brain that work together to determine a person’s intelligence.

“Genetic research has demonstrated that intelligence levels can be inherited, and since genes work through biology, there must be a biological basis for intelligence,” Haier said.

The review of 37 imaging studies, detailed online in the journal Behavioral and Brain Sciences, suggests that intelligence is related not so much to brain size or a particular brain structure, but to how efficiently information travels through the brain.

Baruk, that study is worth crap, because there have been many cases of ‘intelligent people’ who have been shown to have astoundingly small brains, as in this report about the writer Anatole France:

THE BRAIN OF ANATOLE FRANCE.
BY

SIR ARTHUR KEITH, M.D., F.R.S.

On November 12th, 1924, Anatole France died when half-way through his 81st vear. For half a century he had attracted, charmed, irritated, and instructed a vast army of readers recruited from the more intelligent classes of all civilized countries.

Two days after his death his brain, the source of so many deathless pictures, was on its way to the Medical College of Tours, there to undergo detailed examination by anatomists, in the hope that modern skill might detect in its structure some definite basis which would explain the genius of the novelist. The search was conducted by the professor of anatomy, Professor Guillaume-Louis, and his chief assistant, Dr. Dubre’uil-Chambardel.

After an interval of three years the anatomists have at last drawn up their report; it was read at a meeting of the Academy of Medicine held in Paris last month.
‘From this report we learn that the brain of Anatole France, when stripped of its membranes, weighed only 1,017 grams, some 340 grams-about 25 per cent.-less than we expect to find in a man of mediocre ability; that the two cerebral
hemispheres, of exactly similar -weight, turned the scales at 854 grams-28 per cent. below mediocrity. We are told that the fissures and sulci which separated the relatively simple lobes and convolutions of the brain were deep, that the ventricles of the brain were small, and that therefore, in relation to mass, there was an extensive development of cortical grey matter.

No drawing, photograph, or illustration is reproduced to assist the reader in following the dry, descriptive details of the anatomical narrative, but from what we are told and from what can be inferred we must come to the conclusion that there was nothing in the external coinforimation of the brain of Anatole France which would lead an expert
anatomist to infer that it had been the seat of genius. The reporters sum up the results of their examination thus:

“The brain of Anatole France is of an admirable form. It represents a piece of real goldsmith’s work, the convolutions’ being long and sharply delimited, well folded, press tightly together, showing a very unusual degree of complexity.”

After the writer shows off a little:

........................................................

This lack of correspondence between brain mass and mental ability, as measured by accepted standards, has been a lifelong puzzle to me. I have known, in my student days, men with the most massive heads and sagacious appearances who proved failures in all the trials to which the world submitted them, and I have known
smallheaded men succeed brilliantly just as Anatole France did. What is the solution? Do the conditions of life bring out in a measurable form all the inherent Qualities of man’s brain?* Can we measure them by any system of psychological tests yet devised? Is there not such a quality as depth of feeling which need have no value in any kind of market in the world of commerce, science, art, or literature? What part of the brain is it that makes a man or woman so intensely affected by music, by art, by stuffering, or any emotional disturbance whatsoever?

*Is their hypothesis falsifiable?

Yes, yes, Amanda, that is the gold standard in science, Can you disprove a theory or confirm it?

(cont)

Comment #12: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/29  at  12:38 PM

“Cross examination is the greatest engine for ascertaining truth,” Wigmore on Evidence.

Now, biologically speaking, I would expect different types of intelligence to develop in different populations of humanity that live in different environments.To then extrapolate this to state that somehow a population whose physical adaptation includes darker skin and the ability to have a tan(which are two different traits, BTW) are somehow ‘less intelligent’ is ludicrous, and is akin to believing in Lamarckism or geocentric astronomy.

Look at the ancient Polynesians, going all over the Pacific Ocean without a compass or any theory of

I should also point out that my own experiences are that amongst musicians there are two kinds, some who can read and perform music on sight, but find it hard to memorize works to play, some, like moi, who aren’t that good at that, but can play and perform works from memory after some practice and even after years of not playing it.  I’ve seen a man sit down at a piano and play a work that he probably hadn’t played for decades, because I knew he didn’t have a piano at his house or available to him at his work.  There are some who are able to combine the two, like Artur Rubenstein who learned a work for piano and orchestra by reading the score while riding a train to give the concert with said work.

Comment #13: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/29  at  12:48 PM

The thing thats so frustrating about Sullivan is why so many well meaning people (like Ta-Nesihi in this case) give him the deferance and respect that they do. Posts like these and his defensive responses are treated like good faith arguments even though both his track record on this issue and the post itself all indicate otherwise.

Comment #14: harleysa  on  11/29  at  12:51 PM

Partial Welsh heritage, superior?  Impossible!  Harumpf!

Comment #15: ganews_  on  11/29  at  12:53 PM

  MikeEss at 9: Don’t forget that Jews were to be excluded to. It just wasn’t aimed at Catholics.

Comment #16: Lee  on  11/29  at  12:55 PM

After my usual Thanksgiving Eve boozeout and Guns, Germs, and Steel binge, I was biking on Thanksgiving morning with my #2 son (age 13) and explaining both the book and the backstory to the book, including The Bell Curve and its stupidities. 

#2 Son, who could be mistaken for a time travelling young PZ, quickly pointed out that the Bell Curve’s author and his supporters would be profoundly and fatally “stupid” if dropped into the territories inhabited by “low scoring” Khosan or Aboriginal Australian peoples ... or on the moon for that matter.

Comment #17: Ms Kate  on  11/29  at  12:58 PM

Genetic factors which map to intelligence are complex and interdependent, both on other genes (which may not be race specific) and the environment. Their are no doubt some minor genetic variations between races, which map to some intelligence variations (however you want to define intelligence), but they are completely lost in the noise of other factors. Wealth, health and socialisation are far more important to how well someone does in school for example.  So who cares? It is like studying the effect of Mars on the tides, the moon dominates 99.999..% of the effect so it is completely pointless.

Comment #18: benjaminsa  on  11/29  at  12:58 PM

I have the largest head of just about anybody I know, male or female.  Where’s my sceptor and orb?

Comment #19: Ms Kate  on  11/29  at  01:05 PM

Well of course you think that, Amanda—you have the brainpan of a stagecoach driver.

Comment #20: Sour Kraut  on  11/29  at  01:05 PM

How would learning that they (or any other persecuted group) score a few less points on average on IQ tests possibly help?  What would we change about how we treat individuals, who could have any level of intelligence, high or low?

It would help because it would mean it’s okay to be racist, because minorities really are stupid, and you’re not wrong to believe they’re stupid. We wouldn’t change how we treat individuals so much as feel justified in how we treat them.

Comment #21: junk science  on  11/29  at  01:08 PM

This is an incredible post Amanda.

Comment #22: Daisy  on  11/29  at  01:14 PM

” MikeEss at 9: Don’t forget that Jews were to be excluded to. It just wasn’t aimed at Catholics.”

True, but they weren’t considered “white” to begin with.

Of course, the Irish weren’t considered “white” for decades/centuries, but they “became” “white” long before Jews, whose transformation from non-whiteness to being considered “white” is mostly a product of post-WWII thinking (and is certainly not universally accepted among the more racist white people)...

I’m just fascinated that in a society like Nazi Germany, the same people could be considered stupid sub-human vermin, and yet also be considered the evil masterminds and master manipulators who held all of mankind in the palms of their wicked hands.

OTOH, in our own society we’re doing the same sort of thing regarding Arabs/Islamists: We (too many of us) think they are simultaneously stupid, uneducated and ineducable, gutter people who are only capable of the most extreme group-think, and have no motivation to do anything except count-up the number of virgins who await them in the next life after their suicide attack — and at the same time they are twisted geniuses who are so brilliant and conniving they can plan out the most elaborate and devastating attacks on America from cells in Gitmo and need only to blink their eyes in patterns to convey these plans to their eager followers, which is why we can’t let them ever be seen on live TV lest they trigger another 9/11.

Human beings are pretty messed-up creatures, aren’t we?...

Comment #23: MikeEss  on  11/29  at  01:16 PM

When you know your forebears were arbitrarily treated like scum because of their surnames, accents, and other cultural baggage — discounting individuals because of the group they are perceived to belong to and not for who they are as individuals — why would you turn around and do the same thing to other people?

You’ve already had to be the victim, and your reward is now getting to be the bully. That’s the Way Things Are. You’re either a bully or a victim, and dammit, being a bully is a lot of fun.

Comment #24: junk science  on  11/29  at  01:17 PM

Well, I must confess myself disappointed.  I missed Sullivan’s “Fifth Column” days, and only discovered him via link from TPM when he’d started in with the mea culpas and supporting Obama. 

I’ve read him regularly since then, finding some encouragement in the apparent fact that there was at least someone on the right side of the aisle who seemed to have some sense in his head and wasn’t completely driven by hate.  At the same time, he spent so much time saying “No True Scotsman” that I wondered if he had any real understanding of American conservatism. 

Every so often I’d get a glimpse of the fundamental conservative selfishness beneath, be remind that, like most libertarians, the only rights he was concerned with were the ones the affected him directly (gay rights and smoking pot in his case), but that just served as a reminder why were weren’t on the same side. 

But this?  Supporting the Bell Curve and considering himself a brave truth-teller against the p.c. police for telling it?  I guess he understands American conservatism just fine.

Comment #25: Seraph  on  11/29  at  01:27 PM

Ms. Kate at 17: “the Bell Curve’s author and his supporters would be profoundly and fatally “stupid” if dropped into the territories inhabited by “low scoring” Khosan or Aboriginal Australian peoples”

Yes! My extended family had a similar conversation recently, and one of my older relatives, who had grown up on a mid-century farm but left it to pursue a science degree, basically said that for all the stupid people in the world who couldn’t succeed at smart-people careers, there was always farming. I happen to have one of the smart-people careers on his approval list, but I couldn’t work on a farm to save my life. I can’t even grow lettuce in the back yard, let alone organize the tasks that differ week-by-week through the year on hundreds of acres, operate/repair/maintain million-dollar farming machines, or be able to tell when a field needed whatever farmers put on it to make stuff grow. My theoretical farm would fail and I’d end up in the poorhouse with all the other stupid people who obviously are there because they are too dumb to make ends meet.

It’s all about environment and solipsism. Of course the most highly-rated brains are the ones that happen to be intelligent in exactly the same way as the brains of people dreaming up the intelligence tests.

Comment #26: Proboscidea  on  11/29  at  01:27 PM

Excellent post, Amanda.  Your questions about measuring intelligence in particular have been on my mind since reading Nell Irvin Painter’s The History of White People, which is about the history of racial categories as we understand them, and the role of race “science” in construction and supporting that understanding.  It discusses “intelligence” specifically and (along with Cordelia Fine’s Delusions of Gender, another good read for a layperson which I read around the same time) did a lot to convince me that “intelligence” may be as much of a cultural projection on our biology as race is.

Even if intelligence were a fixed aptitude or potential—which I’m not convinced of, either—no single source for it has ever been found and most measures of intelligence break it down into several separate aptitudes.  Intelligence seems to me more like a confluence of socially valuable aptitudes.  Even if a particular race could be shown to do objectively worse on a particular measure of intelligence, it wouldn’t be proof that there aren’t other skills or abilities (like women’s work), not considered part of “intelligence,” that have been devalued by the culture doing the investigating.

Actually, if you’ve ever known or been (hi!) a person whose talents lie in the arts or humanities, it’s obvious that plenty of aptitudes are considered so lacking in value that even people with extraordinary skills in those areas can’t expect to eat without finding something else to do with their lives.  It’s hard to critique this, though, because many of the people having the discussion are “intelligent.”  By some mental acrobatics, “intelligence” is considered both innate and a reasonable dimension of merit, and so it’s integral to a lot of our self-image (including my own).

Comment #27: themmases  on  11/29  at  01:32 PM

NIMH has been collecting longitudinal fMRI data on adolescent brain development since 1989. These data directly contradict the “innate intelligence” hypothesis. Gray matter and caudate volume actually peak in early adolescence and then *decline* until young adulthood. The brain essentially unwires itself for a new period of experiential learning. The human brain is not fully developed until the early to mid-20s.

You can collect all the behavioral data you want, but the fact is that the organic structure of the human brain takes almost a quarter century to develop fully.

Comment #28: gusrex  on  11/29  at  01:43 PM

I’m just fascinated that in a society like Nazi Germany, the same people could be considered stupid sub-human vermin, and yet also be considered the evil masterminds and master manipulators who held all of mankind in the palms of their wicked hands.

You point to the poor inhabitants of the shtetls for the former label, and talk about the International Bankers and Bolsheviks for the latter(Trosky).

You don’t know what a racket being farmer is, Proboscidea.

Comment #29: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/29  at  01:58 PM

I’m just fascinated that in a society like Nazi Germany, the same people could be considered stupid sub-human vermin, and yet also be considered the evil masterminds and master manipulators who held all of mankind in the palms of their wicked hands.

I’m not surprised at all—our society does this with Mexicans—I have literally heard someone say in one breath that Mexicans are lazy AND taking our jobs, HOW DO THEY DO IT?!?

Comment #30: twg_  on  11/29  at  02:01 PM

gusrex, in the early 80s I knew a neuroanatomist who used to say that nobody knew at what point in time post-adolescence, brain development ended in H. sapiens sapiens(Modern Man and Modern Woman), so even back then there was evidence to support the notion that the brain didn’t stop developing when the physical growth into adulthood is achieved in the individual.

Comment #31: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/29  at  02:07 PM

The Mismeasure of Man is fascinating, and doesn’t say at all what most people who trot it out would have you think it says. 

It doesn’t say that there aren’t IQ differences between the races on average, it just says that it’s wrong to discriminate based on that because any individual in any race can be anywhere on the spectrum.

Comment #32: Funky Horns  on  11/29  at  02:18 PM

One of the big problems of trying to correlate American definitions of race to genetics is that if you actually look at the genetic clocks, skin color isn’t a reliable indicator of the underlying genetic relationships. There’s more genetic diversity across Africa than there is in the rest of the world combined. There’s no justification for the category “black” in terms of human evolutionary relationships.

While I do think that the concept of general intelligence (“g”) is reasonable, we just don’t have enough information to make evolutionary hypotheses beyond “yes, we’re probably smarter than chimps.”  Without either a firm quantitative model, or sequences of the genes in question, evolutionary hypotheses are very difficult to support.

Comment #33: CBrachyrhynchos  on  11/29  at  02:21 PM

This is a pretty good takedown

I suspect that Sullivan gets wrapped up in the narrative of fighting for scientific freedom against the PC hordes and that eclipses whether what he is defending is good science or not.

One thing about this, however: i would actually defend a certain amount of political correctness here. Imagine, for instance, a researcher who sought to establish how often women have orgasms during rapes. Obviously as a matter of pure academic freedom, i would defend the right of a researcher to look into that topic, but am i supposed to be unconcerned about how people might misuse a conclusion that a signifcant number of women have such orgasms?

I am not a fan of research into race and intelligence because i can’t see how this sort of thing would go in anything other than a bad direction, both because of the biases of the (usually white) researchers and because there are so many bigots out there who will jump on any scientific conclusion that whites are smarter than minorities.

This is an area that should be approached, if at all, with great caution. Sullivan wants to jump in with both feet.

Comment #34: Dilan Esper  on  11/29  at  02:29 PM

I went to a talk about debunking The Bell Curve at my psychology department when I was an undergrad, and this was about 10 years ago, either fall 2001 or spring 2002. The speaker said that when you control for education, nutrition and poverty, the differences between racial groups on IQ tests disappear. He made it seem so simple that my friends and I all walked out saying “How did The Bell Curve even get published?” Racism, obvs.

Comment #35: MissCherryPi  on  11/29  at  02:31 PM

I’m just fascinated that in a society like Nazi Germany, the same people could be considered stupid sub-human vermin, and yet also be considered the evil masterminds and master manipulators who held all of mankind in the palms of their wicked hands.

I’m not surprised at all—our society does this with Mexicans—I have literally heard someone say in one breath that Mexicans are lazy AND taking our jobs, HOW DO THEY DO IT?!?
Comment #30: twg_ on 11/29 at 02:01 PM

I think the phrase “a certain low cunning” manages.  They make it look like they’re working, and they are talented at getting out of work or being lazy while looking industrious.  That’s why you have to beat them when you catch them at it.

I learned early on in life how much bullshit is involved in intelligence testing.  I was in the first cohort of the Johns Hopkins SMPY study. 

Much of what they claimed and still claim about the study participants is blatantly false.  Recruitment was done by teachers—in my school, no girls were recruited, my mother had to see an article about the study and call them to get me in, and it turned out I was just as talented as the boys.  Students who had the same supposed level of education didn’t—girls were routinely taught less in math and science classes and did not get the kind of 3D visualization (the ultimate of all intelligences, guess why) training boys did and was tested for in the study because they took Home Ec, not Shop.

Comment #36: oldfeminist  on  11/29  at  02:33 PM

This is an area that should be approached, if at all, with great caution. Sullivan wants to jump in with both feet.

TNC’s metaphor here was great: Andrew is walking through the ICU, fiddling with all the machines and wondering why everyone is so uptight.

Comment #37: chingona  on  11/29  at  02:36 PM

I’m not surprised at all—our society does this with Mexicans—I have literally heard someone say in one breath that Mexicans are lazy AND taking our jobs, HOW DO THEY DO IT?!?

The wingnuts do this with liberals. On one hand, liberals are peace-loving, tofu-eating hippy wimps. On the other, they are dangerous radicals who, at a moment’s notice, will burst through your front door and take your precious guns.

Comment #38: adobedragon  on  11/29  at  02:41 PM

The thing is, even *if* there’s a biologically innate characteristic “intelligence”, it is only partially genetic

This is certainly true.

But ss race isn’t genetic, it’s only piling on. The entire enterprise is rotten all the way down.

Comment #39: rb1  on  11/29  at  02:42 PM

@Funky Horns It doesn’t say that there aren’t IQ differences between the races on average, it just says that it’s wrong to discriminate based on that because any individual in any race can be anywhere on the spectrum.

Incorrect. Actually, what it demonstrates is that the entire notion of a unidimensional measure of intelligence such as IQ is preposterous, and that those pushing it as a marker between racial categories invariably have racist intentions.

BTW, please describe the appearance and familial heritage of the ‘average’ white person. I’ll wait.

Comment #40: rb1  on  11/29  at  02:47 PM

Andrew is walking through the ICU, fiddling with all the machines and wondering why everyone is so uptight.

What else would you expect from a dumb mick?

Comment #41: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/29  at  02:49 PM

It’s hard to critique this, though, because many of the people having the discussion are “intelligent.”

Indeed, and if you try to engage with someone who’s supremely invested in the notion of IQ as proof that men are smarter than women and white folks are smarter than everyone else, they do exactly what Amanda said: abandon all attempt at rational discussion and simply accuse you of being opposed to IQ tests because you’re a dumbass who doesn’t like what the IQ tests tell you about yourself.

Even absent racist and sexist intentions, the validation that a high IQ can offer makes it that much more difficult for someone with a high IQ to see the flaws in the concept. Hence the existence of MENSA, I suppose.

Comment #42: Triplanetary  on  11/29  at  03:00 PM

Although I agree completely with your take down on the bell curve, I disagree with your comment “who he really is never lurks far from the surface”. I disagree with many of Andrew Sullivan’s ideas, but he his very open and honest about who he is, and what he believes. In fact I read him precisely because he clearly and intelligently argues for many ideas I disagree with. I don’t know about intentions, but it is useful to have the argument, even if the idea is a batshit insane one debunked 30 years ago.

Comment #43: benjaminsa  on  11/29  at  03:07 PM

I’d love to talk about Sullivan’s racism, but the fact is that even without the racism he already outed himself as a fascist-wannabe back in 2001.

Comment #44: atheist  on  11/29  at  03:11 PM

THE FLYNN EFFECT.

Sorry for shouting, but really. IQ Tests get renormed every 10-20 years because there’s a longterm increasing trend of about 3 points per decade in “pure” intelligence if you keep using the same tests and scoring. So you either have to accept that IQ is, er, inexact at best, or else believe that the founding fathers were a bunch of morons compared to the average ghetto stoner.

Comment #45: paul  on  11/29  at  03:13 PM

@CBrachyrhynchos: skin color isn’t a reliable indicator of the underlying genetic relationships.

Gee, you don’t say!

My daughter is as pale-skinned as my Irish-American carcass. Meanwhile her mother’s skin is a deep brown. I’d always assumed that this meant my daughter was much “closer” to me than to her mom, genetically. And also, she’s going to be just as smart as me. I mean we both sunburn easily, so we’re, like, the same ‘n shit!

Or, wait: maybe she’s half as smart as me (we Irish became white a few years back, dontcha know) and half as dumb as her mom? Someone help me out here…

Christ, this is the most moronic conversation. Why we give these racist assholes the time of day I will never understand.

(No offense intended toward you, CBrachyrhynchos; it’s just that we don’t need deep studies of genetic variance to see that race, a very real SOCIAL construct impacting virtually all aspects of life, is 100% lacking in biological basis. Cursory historical awareness and observation of our surroundings is definitive.)

Comment #46: rb1  on  11/29  at  03:17 PM

but it is useful to have the argument, even if the idea is a batshit insane one debunked 30 years ago.

Not so, if you’re the person being called stupid on the basis of your skin color.

Comment #47: rb1  on  11/29  at  03:18 PM

rb1 beat me to it!

Seriously, benjaminsa, endlessly entertaining debunked claims about the intelligence of a particular race for the sake of “argument” isn’t useful, it’s dumb and racist.  Reducing the real conditions of other people’s lives to an intellectual exercise (one that somehow doesn’t involve accepting evidence and moving forward with it) is a really callous use of one’s privilege.

Comment #48: themmases  on  11/29  at  03:37 PM

  MikeEss at 23: If I’m reading the articles on recent neuroscience correctly, humans do not generally form conclusions based on facts. Rather they form conclusions first and then find “facts” to form these conclusions. Its why debating rarely works in changing the minds of people who already made up their mind but can persuade those that are undecided. It also explains why humans can hold very contadictory ideas at the same time like Mexicans are lazy but at the same time taking our jobs.

  You are slightly wrong on Nazi ideology regarding the Jews. The Nazis didn’t believe that Jews were an inferior race of humans compared to Aryans. The Nazis did not believe that the Jews were human at all. We were seen as being viruses poisioning humanity in general and Aryans in particular in the Nazi cosmolgy. Thats why they could view as as inferior but at the same time still fear us as something that could beat them.

Comment #49: Lee  on  11/29  at  03:38 PM

At least one thing is clear—I suck at premonition.

Comment #50: Baruk  on  11/29  at  03:40 PM

Imagine, for instance, a researcher who sought to establish how often women have orgasms during rapes. Obviously as a matter of pure academic freedom, i would defend the right of a researcher to look into that topic, but am i supposed to be unconcerned about how people might misuse a conclusion that a signifcant number of women have such orgasms?

I think that the most responsible stance is that of course you have the right to study or research whatever you want - but then it’s also your responsibility to make sure that the media reports it correctly and to monitor how it is being used and speak out when it’s being misapplied. Psychology Today put up an evolutionary psychology post leading with the suggestion that semen keeps women from killing themselves.  The original researcher said very clearly that his study should not be taken to mean that people should stop practicing safe sex, but is more about how pair bonding happens. But that is rarely reported. (Neither is the fact that frequency of sex was not controlled for…)

Comment #51: MissCherryPi  on  11/29  at  03:46 PM

And another reason it’s not useful to have the argument: progress really slows down if you have to have the same argument as you had debunking this crap 30 years ago. I’m imagining how particle physics would have gone if Feynman or Gell-Mann had had to start every morning with a couple hours explaining “No, Albert, it doesn’t matter if god throws dice or not, the only thing that matters are the equations” and “Yes, Professor Sommerfeld, I know the surfaces of electrons and protons would have to be spinning at speeds faster than light to generate what we measure as spin. But they’re quantum particles and don’t have surfaces in the macro sense, so your equation really doesn’t apply. Now have a cup of tea.”

In short, if people are going to be in a public conversation, it’s not unreasonable to expect them to do their homework. And not doing your homework is a very effective way of holding back the people who have done theirs.

Comment #52: paul  on  11/29  at  03:54 PM

if the people in question really are inferior, why do we need to throw roadblocks in their way? Let them fail on their own. Anything else just projects fear that they may be as good (or better) than you are.

“Totally Not Racist” Fox news watchers like my father would be all too happy to explain to you that this proves that the situation of any minority is totally their fault. They do poorly in school not because they have bad schools and no funds, but because they’re naturally stupid. They live in dangerous housing and ghettoes because they’re not smart enough to get/perform better jobs and earn enough money to move up in the world. In other words, it’s all their fault. The “roadblocks” you speak of are simply not there. If pressed, he’d tell you that this is how “they” want/like to live. Black people delibeartely choose to go live in bad sections of town and go to poor black schools. Nobody makes them any more than they make them sit together at lunch.

I’m just fascinated that in a society like Nazi Germany, the same people could be considered stupid sub-human vermin, and yet also be considered the evil masterminds and master manipulators who held all of mankind in the palms of their wicked hands.

The above is also simultaneously coupled with the belief that everything black people do is a scam. They don’t really want to “improve” themselves because that would mean the end of living like kings and queens on welfare. They are master manipulators of the government and have created the myth of oppression and white guilt in order to keep milking hardworking white taxpayers of their money.

When I drove in to work this morning, I got behind a car with two bumperstickers placed right next to each other: Keep Working: Millions of People on Welfare Depend on You and God Bless Everybody: No Exceptions!. That about sums up America today.

Comment #53: Egnu Cledge  on  11/29  at  03:58 PM

The Bell Curve got published because it is a NON PEER REVIEWED book and there was a ready market for such bullshit.  It was intended to make money, not to inform.  If it were real science, it could have been published in a properly peer reviewed journal.

Which is why Pinker has started going the book route.  Baseless assertions and handy misinterpretations and half truths don’t get in the way of publishing.

Comment #54: Ms Kate  on  11/29  at  04:13 PM

It certainly is odd to see a writer as well-known and widely respected as Mr Sullivan buy into the whole narrative that presents IQ nativists as a plucky little band of truth-tellers beset by an unreasoning horde of politically correct fools. At the same time, I am puzzled by your description of The Mismeasure of Man as a “masterpiece.”  Frankly, I can’t see what niche it fills.  It’s too basic to offer much to readers who are familiar with psychometrics, and too cavalier in its strawman depictions of nativists to be useful as an introduction to the field.  I understand and share the late Professor Gould’s frustration with nativism and his indignation at the uses to which psychometric tests have been put under its influence, but I’m never surprised to see nativists cite his book as an example of the sort of thing they imagine themselves to be valiantly battling against.

Comment #55: acilius  on  11/29  at  04:23 PM

The Bell Curve got published because it is a NON PEER REVIEWED book and there was a ready market for such bullshit.

This is quite true. The late Richard Herrnstein, one of its authors, had actually done some peer-reviewed work on IQ distribution, which I remember reading about in Mickey Kaus’ book “The End of Equality”, and it was neither as far-reaching nor as categorical as what appeared in “The Bell Curve”. (That isn’t to say that it wasn’t problematic—only that it was much closer to the spirit of “scientific inquiry” that Sullivan thinks he is standing up for.)

He hooked up with Charles Murray, who was a hack from the American Enterprise Institute whose previous work consisted of books and position papers about how we should cut welfare mothers off the dole because it was their own fault that they were there, and wrote a book that was sure to sell to the right wing but which could have never gotten past peer review.

As a general rule—and this applies even to books whose conclusions I sympathize with—if you want good science, you don’t find it in the nonfiction section of your bookstore. You find it in scientific journals. Even authors with more integrity than Murray and Herrnstein can sometimes find themselves punching up a conclusion or changing emphasis when writing for a popular audience—they want to sell more books and nonfiction books are not peer reviewed or even usually subject to fact checking.

Comment #56: Dilan Esper  on  11/29  at  04:26 PM

the whole narrative that presents IQ nativists as a plucky little band of truth-tellers beset by an unreasoning horde of politically correct fools

The thing is, the media loves this narrative, no matter the specifics, so it’s not overly surprising to see any given journalist buy into it.

Comment #57: Triplanetary  on  11/29  at  04:44 PM

I just started reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali for the first time.  I finished Infidel and I’m half way through Nomad.  Mostly, I have truly enjoyed her uncompromising feminism and her willingness to pull no punches in criticizing the religion in which she was raised (though I think she is misguided in her belief that similarly damaging mores don’t exist in any significant way among Christians).  So I was thinking I would love to go out and have a cup of coffee with this woman, when all of a sudden she mentions (in Nomad, I think) how much she loved the Bell Curve, and how she thinks it would be useful reading for every black person in America.  That brought me up short.  Now I know there are other chapters in the book besides the ones that talk about intelligence as an innate and uniform factor, but I am wondering specifically what Ali found useful or compelling about the book.  I really wish she hadn’t dropped that little bombshell about her love of the Bell Curve without explaining herself.

Comment #58: Laurie  on  11/29  at  04:53 PM

The Nazis didn’t believe that Jews were an inferior race of humans compared to Aryans. The Nazis did not believe that the Jews were human at all. We were seen as being viruses poisioning humanity in general and Aryans in particular in the Nazi cosmolgy.

True. Viruses are powerful and scary, but certainly not smart.

 

Comment #59: junk science  on  11/29  at  05:02 PM

  The problem with the idea of falsifiability is that it has never actually happened. The were shouted down and never proven actually wrong with hard data. Also their theories mesh quite well with observed reality. The idea that Jews and Italians were low IQ is clearly false in view of their degree of success in society and in the world. Black IQ does not offer a chance for the same type of disproval. Everywhere in the world blacks are either at the bottom of the barrel if they are a minority or living in hellhole countries if they are a majority. They haven’t been able to close the education gap despite decades of efforts. Kids from black families with incomes of over 200.000$ scored lower on the SAT than white kids from families with 20.000-40.000$ incomes. How does the “paint chip” theory explain this.
 
http://www.jbhe.com/latest/news/1-22-09/satracialgapfigure.gif

    As for the bushman survival argument this is one of the most illogical argument ever made. Bush survival depends on acquired skill not innate intelligence. I can take a nuclear engineer and teach him to survive in the bush, I can’t take a bushman and teach him to be a nuclear engineer in 95% of cases.

Comment #60: davi111  on  11/29  at  05:06 PM

That the supposedly agenda-free researchers have stopped bothering to measure white ethnic groups against each other

That’s not entirely true.  A study came out a while ago showing that Eastern Europeans and rural Europeans are dumber on average than their Western and urban counterparts.  Of course, that likely says more about relative poverty and access to education in rural and urban areas.

And don’t some people still tell dumb Polak jokes?

Comment #61: keshmeshi  on  11/29  at  05:14 PM

Nuclear physics and doing well on the SAT are not acquired skills?  Huh.  I guess all those SAT prep courses people pay for are just a racket. 

Comment #62: Laurie  on  11/29  at  05:14 PM

#60: “I can’t take a bushman and teach him to be a nuclear engineer in 95% of cases.”

They’re as likely as anyone else if their upbringing is the same. That’s why adopted children from Africa and Asia don’t do worse than the average (in fact, they tend to do better due to greater parental care). Obviously if you grab a 30 year old bushman with no previous education, take him to America and try to teach him nuclear engineering, you won’t suceed. The same can be said of a 30 year old trucker from Massachusetts or Manchester, by the way.

Comment #63: Baruk  on  11/29  at  05:16 PM

Everywhere in the world blacks are either at the bottom of the barrel if they are a minority or living in hellhole countries if they are a majority.

See, doofus, there’s no genetic correlation for black and stupid.

Of course you never heard of the Nubian civilizations which weren’t hell-holes, and were much advanced than that of the ancestors of what we like to think of as “White Europeans”:

Various pharaohs of Nubian origin are held by some Egyptologists to have played an important part towards the area in different eras of Egyptian history, particularly the 12th Dynasty. These rulers handled matters in typical Egyptian fashion, reflecting the close cultural influences between the two regions.

  ...the XIIth Dynasty (1991–1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region. As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest, whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne. Especially interesting, it was a member of this dynasty that decreed that no Nehsy (riverine Nubian of the principality of Kush), except such as came for trade or diplomatic reasons, should pass by the Egyptian fortress and cops at the southern end of the Second Nile Cataract. Why would this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban other Nubians from coming into Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian rulers of Nubian ancestry had become Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and adopted typical Egyptian policies. (Yurco 1989) [22]

In the New Kingdom, Nubians and Egyptians were often so closely related that some scholars consider them virtually indistinguishable, as the two cultures melded and mixed together.

It is an extremely difficult task to attempt to describe the Nubians during the course of Egypt’s New Kingdom, because their presence appears to have virtually evaporated from the archaeological record. The result has been described as a wholesale Nubian assimilation into Egyptian society. This assimilation was so complete that it masked all Nubian ethnic identities insofar as archaeological remains are concerned beneath the impenetrable veneer of Egypt’s material culture. In the Kushite Period, when Nubians ruled as Pharaohs in their own right, the material culture of Dynasty XXV (about 750–655 B.C.E.) was decidedly Egyptian in character. Nubia’s entire landscape up to the region of the Third Cataract was dotted with temples indistinguishable in style and decoration from contemporary temples erected in Egypt. The same observation obtains for the smaller number of typically Egyptian tombs in which these elite Nubian princes were interred.[23]

Comment #64: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/29  at  05:20 PM

While it’s difficult to measure intelligence scientifically, I’m not buying the idea that it’s *impossible* or even extremely difficult to tell the difference.  There are, without a doubt, many people in this world who have seriously shitty (or even non-existent) deductive reasoning and critical thinking skills.  And not all of them have suffered poor nutrition, poverty, or lousy educational opportunities.

I do think, however, that in the grand scheme of decreasing inequality, the existence or non-existence of ethnic disparities are completely fucking irrelevant.  So what if people with sub-Saharan African heritage *supposedly* have lower intelligence?  The fact remains that African Americans, and most people of African descent throughout the world, lack the same opportunities as white Americans and white Europeans.  I mean, what’s the IQ point spread, supposedly?  A few IQ points?  That doesn’t/can’t explain the huge disparity in poverty rates.  Only institutional inequality and lack of opportunity can explain that.  And, ultimately, the only people who care about this shit are the people who want to keep that institutional inequality in place.  So they can just go to fucking hell.

Comment #65: keshmeshi  on  11/29  at  05:25 PM

@Comment #60: davi111 on 11/29 at 05:06 PM

As for the bushman survival argument this is one of the most illogical argument ever made. Bush survival depends on acquired skill not innate intelligence. I can take a nuclear engineer and teach him to survive in the bush, I can’t take a bushman and teach him to be a nuclear engineer in 95% of cases.

Really. Have you ever, in fact, taken a nuclear engineer and taught them to survive in the wilds of Sub-Saharan Africa, for a significant length of time? Have you ever survived a significant length of time in such an area, living as the natives do? I’m going to go out on a limb here and suppose that you have not, in fact, ever done any such thing, and might not be able to do so either.

Comment #66: atheist  on  11/29  at  05:28 PM

I can’t take a bushman and teach him to be a nuclear engineer in 95% of cases.

Given 25+ years of quality education, I daresay you could.

Comment #67: Triplanetary  on  11/29  at  05:34 PM

@Comment #60: davi111 on 11/29 at 05:06 PM

As for the bushman survival argument this is one of the most illogical argument ever made. Bush survival depends on acquired skill not innate intelligence. I can take a nuclear engineer and teach him to survive in the bush, I can’t take a bushman and teach him to be a nuclear engineer in 95% of cases.

So, you are claiming that you’ve taken a representative sample of Bushmen and tried to teach them to be nuclear engineers, and approximately one out of twenty Bushmen can do that? Dude, do you know what this means? Bushmen must be the most intelligent people on Earth! That’s much better than the average American.

Comment #68: atheist  on  11/29  at  05:36 PM

Racist dumbass wouldn’t last a day in the bush or in the physics lab, much less be qualified to teach a chimpanzee to scratch its balls. As long as he can tell himself he got a higher SAT score than x% of black kids, he can go on living with himself.

Comment #69: junk science  on  11/29  at  05:40 PM

@Comment #69: junk science on 11/29 at 05:40 PM

Racist dumbass wouldn’t last a day in the bush or in the physics lab, much less be qualified to teach a chimpanzee to scratch its balls.

I sometimes wonder if racist trolls are actually an elite squad of comedians, dedicated to making the rest of us giggle by any means necessary.

Comment #70: atheist  on  11/29  at  05:45 PM

Everywhere in the world blacks are either at the bottom of the barrel if they are a minority or living in hellhole countries if they are a majority.

See, doofus, there’s no genetic correlation for black and stupid.

Of course you never heard of the Nubian civilizations which weren’t hell-holes, and were much advanced compared to the contemporary ancestors of what we like to think of as “White Europeans”:

Various pharaohs of Nubian origin are held by some Egyptologists to have played an important part towards the area in different eras of Egyptian history, particularly the 12th Dynasty. These rulers handled matters in typical Egyptian fashion, reflecting the close cultural influences between the two regions.

      ...the XIIth Dynasty (1991–1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region.
      As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their
      sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest,
      whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne. Especially interesting,
      it was a member of this dynasty that decreed that no Nehsy
      (riverine Nubian of the principality of Kush), except such as came for trade
      or diplomatic reasons, should pass by the Egyptian fortress and cops at
      the southern end of the Second Nile Cataract. Why would this royal family
      of Nubian ancestry ban other Nubians from coming into Egyptian territory?
      Because the Egyptian rulers of Nubian ancestry had become Egyptians
      culturally; as pharaohs, they exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and
      adopted typical Egyptian policies. (Yurco 1989) [22]

In the New Kingdom, Nubians and Egyptians were often so closely related that some scholars consider them virtually indistinguishable, as the two cultures melded and mixed together.

        It is an extremely difficult task to attempt to describe the Nubians during
        the course of Egypt’s New Kingdom, because their presence appears to
        have virtually evaporated from the archaeological record. The result has
        been described as a wholesale Nubian assimilation in to Egyptian society
.
        This assimilation was so complete that it masked all Nubian ethnic identities
        insofar as archaeological remains are concerned beneath the impenetrable
        veneer of Egypt’s material culture. In the Kushite Period, when Nubians
        ruled as Pharaohs in their own right, the material culture of Dynasty XXV
        (about 750–655 B.C.E.) was decidedly Egyptian in character. Nubia’s entire
        landscape up to the region of the Third Cataract was dotted with temples
        indistinguishable in style and decoration from contemporary temples
        erected in Egypt. The same observation obtains for the smaller number
        of typically Egyptian tombs in which these elite Nubian princes were interred.

Comment #71: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/29  at  05:53 PM

I’ll never understand why supposedly smart people like Sullivan make the mistake that evidence is prescriptive… Instead of just descriptive.

The bell curve of performance in one school doesn’t match the one next door, so why would it stand that that the curve of performance of a genealogical grouping have any predictive value to the constraints of performance for another (later) group of the same genealogical grouping?  If that were so we’d never have had the 2-minute mile or the Fosbury Flop or any record-breaking.

Comment #72: Crissa  on  11/29  at  05:54 PM

So why are we even bothering with all this education bullshit if you can just take people from the bushes and 1 in 20 will become nuclear engineers! To think of all the money we waste trying to promote participation in the sciences when we just needed to get some bushmen.

Comment #73: alysia  on  11/29  at  06:02 PM

Oops! My apologies atheist, I commented on the stupid before finishing the thread.

Comment #74: alysia  on  11/29  at  06:05 PM

I am, according to the IQ tests, a genius - in the 160+ range.

What I actually am is moderately bright with a talent for pattern recognition.  Helps in suduku, doing geeky things with games - and doing well on IQ tests.

Nowhere does Sullivan mention the Flynn effect - a general rise in test scores - which is occurring AT THE SAME TIME as right-wingers bemoan White America declining into mongrelization…

Comment #75: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/29  at  06:13 PM

I don’t like having to argue this:  But we do know that intelligence capability is inborn; we have examples of many individuals with learning disabilities.  This is not the same as knowing what the capability of any individual may be, however, and there really have been no studies that find, given the same socialization, that there is any difference between even gender, let alone race.

We went to the Body Worlds exhibit last weekend, and I was disappointed to find up on one of their guide posters that ‘men are better at spacial and women may be less adept at math’.  There’s no scientific proofs for this.  That’s no better than Sullivan.

Argh.

Comment #76: Crissa  on  11/29  at  06:13 PM

But learning disabilities illustrate the difficulty of defining intelligence in any uniform way.  A person may have difficulty reading due to dyslexia, yet have excellent analytical skills.  Someone else may lack the ability to read social cues but may do well in school and IQ tests.

Comment #77: Laurie  on  11/29  at  06:20 PM

i found the most useful link to be this one:

http://drx.typepad.com/psychotherapyblog/2011/11/andrew-sullivan-iq-research.html

sullivan’s premise, and that of the alternet article, that there is an IQ “blackout” seems false. 

if anything, such measurements are becoming more and more common, particularly now that fMRI and rapid genotypic are available to assist with the research (rather than filling skulls with buckshot or seeds). 

IQ measurement is often required for studies of other issues, typically as a confounding variable that must be regressed out. 

as for the blackout, consider:

http://duende.uoregon.edu/~hsu/talks/ggoogle.pdf

Comment #78: ochlocrat  on  11/29  at  06:24 PM

Black IQ does not offer a chance for the same type of disproval. Everywhere in the world blacks are either at the bottom of the barrel if they are a minority or living in hellhole countries if they are a majority.

Yeah, and centuries of colonization and exploitation has nothing to do with countries being hellholes now. Of course.

That sound you just heard was my eyes getting stuck to the back of my head.

Comment #79: Alyson Miers  on  11/29  at  06:25 PM

If I’d been socialized as male, I may have had more confidence with computers, as well.

This point is also really important. Part of mastering a subject or skill is having permission to fail and learn from your mistakes. If you’re surrounded by people holding their breath hoping you’ll fail so their prejudices will be confirmed, it puts a lot of pressure on you to get everything exactly right the first time, which isn’t going to happen in most cases.

Comment #80: junk science  on  11/29  at  06:40 PM

There is no IQ research blackout. This whole debate is about the relationship between g and race. It’s true that you don’t see as many papers with titles like “IQ & Race,” but that’s because psychometricians realize that question was a non-starter in the first place, not because there’s a conspiracy to suppress a promising avenue of research. There was a brief vogue for explicitly investigating the question in academia, but the debate was always a bigger deal in the popular press than in contemporary psychology.

So, what’s g? G is the thing that all valid cognitive tests supposedly measure, the putative common denominator of intelligence. But how do we know if a new cognitive test is valid? Partially because doing well on the new test correlates with doing well on some older test, which in turn was validated relative to other tests. So, there’s a bit of circularity there.

What’s race? We could come up with a lot of conflicting or overlapping definitions, but one thing we can be pretty sure it’s NOT is a genetic concept. There’s no genetic formula for “White” or “Hispanic” or “Black.” What race you get classified as has more to do with historical, geographic, and linguistic happenstance than genetics. Yes, some of the criteria we use as markers of race in our particular classification system are genetic, like skin color—but different combinations of genes can yield similar-looking complexions. The Brown Paper Bag test is not science.

Trying to relate g and race is like trying to nail Jello to the wall.

Comment #81: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  11/29  at  06:55 PM

Everything Piator said @75. One reason I’ve traditionally killed on IQ tests and test like it is I’m really good at guessing what the test taker is aiming at.

Comment #82: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/29  at  07:39 PM

What’s race? We could come up with a lot of conflicting or overlapping definitions, but one thing we can be pretty sure it’s NOT is a genetic concept.

WORD!

I am:
Culturally white, but initially of low social economic status
White, “High Yellow” or “Brazillian/Hispanic” looking, depending on where I am and who I am talking to*
Ethnically mixed mostly celtic/English with substantial African and some Native American heritage
African subgroup mitochondrial genetics

What race am I? 

Oh, and my IQ puts me in the top 0.0001% of those tested


*People expect me to give them directions in Portuguese and Spanis; people would walk up to me expecting me to speak Catalan when I was in Barcelona, but then seem surprised when American English emerged; an older black professor in NoLa pegged me as “high yellow” in a discussion of how race was classically “assigned” in the deep south.

Comment #83: Ms Kate  on  11/29  at  08:12 PM

Andrew Sullivan is a monster.  He actually reads and refuses to dismiss out of hand studies that are unpopular.  He as editor also had multiple people who actually read The Bell Curve discuss and critique it.  Some of those people actually agreed with the book. 

That man has no sense of decency.  A decent man with an open mind should seek to shut down debate and not air differing opinions.

Comment #84: Brian7  on  11/29  at  08:22 PM

Brian7 lacks scientific ability.  Must be one of those low IQ people.

Comment #85: Ms Kate  on  11/29  at  08:38 PM

Nothing stimulates honest debate like a baseless but self-serving conspiracy theory.

Comment #86: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  11/29  at  08:39 PM

He as editor also had multiple people who actually read The Bell Curve discuss and critique it.  Some of those people actually agreed with the book.

In science, this is called “peer review” - but only if it is carried out by people familiar with scientific method, process, and discipline.  The fact is, this book wasn’t published under a true peer review system because it was lousy science and failed that quality check.  This was published as “popular” “literature” because it couldn’t possibly pass rigorous scientific muster - it is garbage.

Having a bunch of people who are not scientifically trained read and review and discuss it is all well and good, but it doesn’t make it correct, factual, or good science if they like it.

Comment #87: Ms Kate  on  11/29  at  08:43 PM

It’s more than a little bit telling that some people should claim to think that expertise in neither the field of intelligence testing nor statistical scientific inquiry is necessary to pass judgment on a book that ostensibly proves some people are ineluctibly less intelligent than others.

It’s the Moody’s version of peer review.

Comment #88: paul  on  11/29  at  09:19 PM

“some who can read and perform music on sight, but find it hard to memorize works to play, some, like moi, who aren’t that good at that, but can play and perform works from memory after some practice and even after years of not playing it”

When I was in secondary school and my music teacher was trying to get everyone to learn keyboard in the same room at once (I hated it, I have tiny hands), she used to scold those of us who tried to memorize the sheet music and then play it without looking up. She seemed to think playing as you read was the only legitimate way to do it.

Comment #89: Treefinger  on  11/29  at  09:19 PM

Treefinger, sight-reading is a separate skill that should be developed in musical training, but what you’re describing is the ‘one-size fits all’ approach which doesn’t work with keyboard training en masse.

Comment #90: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/29  at  09:34 PM

“If we chose as a species to highlight foot length instead of skin color, we’re probably be seeing IQ claims correlated with shoe size instead of race.”

Fun factoid: there is a general positive correlation between foot length and IQ. This is because taller people tend to have larger feet and taller people tend to have had better nutrition in their developmental years, which has a positive effect on developing whatever trait it is that IQ tests measure. The even funner factoid: because men are generally taller and have larger feet than women, I have seen this finding used as some form of proof that men are more intelligent than women.

People! Stop misusing the power of science for evil! With awesome science comes awesome responsibility.

Comment #91: zaewen  on  11/29  at  10:06 PM

That man has no sense of decency.  A decent man with an open mind should seek to shut down debate and not air differing opinions.

And a man who insists on dredging up the same false, cruel opinion for “debate” bores us all by forcing us to ponder “stupid or evil?” again.

Comment #92: themmases  on  11/29  at  10:34 PM

Dark Avenger;

don’t ignore the Axum Empire [modern Ethopia is the area that was the “heart” of the Empire]. it rivaled Rome in it’s day; for centuries, even. it’s “height” was 500-600CE, but it was around for forever… i don’t remember who, offhand, but someone in the bureaucracy of Justinius [the one married to Theodora] described the Axumites like this [paraphrased]: “Skin darker than the darkest bark, their hair is so curly it resembles wool, and is uniformly short on both men and women to control it; they are as tall as barbarians, and have no affinity for horse - but put them on a water vessel, and they’ll take your city with 50 spears and an oar” [that last line - 50 spears and an oar - is exactly what the translation said.]

there were extant countries in Africa in the 1600 and 1700’s that had laws and a law system as complex as our modern system [that worked a bit better, from what i understand]

i could go on.


but IQ! oh, the IQ, the freaking *BANE* of my existence. 

when i was 8, a teacher recomment i enter GATE [“Gifted And Talented Education]. in order to become a GATE student, one must have an IQ 131. 
so i was tested. i was tested on a BAD DAY - i had a temp of 104 and was hospitalized later that day. 
i scored 140. 

well, OBVIOUSLY this score COULD NOT be correct - there wasn’t a single other female student in that elementary school who scored even the minimal 131! not to mention, i was an Indian, and EVERYONE knows that us Injuns just aren’t as good at “white man” things, like academic tests. i must have “gotten lucky” or something. so i was re-tested a month later with a different version
i scored 183. 

all the teachers were FLOORED by this score, and kept giving me more, and harder, stuff to learn/do. 
i loved it! i was being allowed to learn at *MY* rate. 
but another thing was found during the testing. i have dyspraxia., which means that CERTAIN forms of math [geometry and trig, fractions] and languages are MUCH more difficult for me than people without dyspraxia.

I WAS NEVER TOLD I HAD DYSPRAXIA. i didn’t find out until i was 30. it was discovered when i was 8. 
YEARS in which i was subject to abuse for every A-, no matter how hard i worked. years where teachers gave me shit along the lines of “you have an IQ above 180, why can’t you do this? you’re just LAZY”. 
years of being told - by my parents who DID know i had this learning disorder - that, no, i did NOT need a tutor, i needed to “work”. 

and every single person i know [IRL] with an IQ of 140 or higher has gone thru the same thing. [ok, most were’t beaten for getting an A-, but they were punished].

so i don’t tell people my IQ anymore [exception made, obvs]. they always seem to think that i can do integral calculus in my head, or i’ll be tossed some complicated astophysics problem, then when i can’t solve it because i’ve never LEARNED astrophysics, i’m sneered at. 

IQ doesn’t measure much, really. All it measure how well you can function in certain, narrowly-defined areas, if you know enough about them. 

and it seems to be a uniformly BAD thing to KNOW what one’s IQ is. if it’s even ONE point above “average”, everyone expects that person to be automatically and uniformly perfect in academics, they’re pushed into the hardest possible classes, and called “lazy” if/when they can’t measure up to these expectations. if it’s even ONE point below “average”, no one expects ANYTHING from you [and treats you as if you have an IQ of 50, and discourages you from taking hard classes, etc, etc]

there’s no winning.

and when you bring “race” into it, it’s even WORSE. because, as i and many others have said, IQ only measures for certain things. it doesn’t MATTER that i have perfect pitch, that i played 8 instruments by the time i graduated high school. it also doesn’t matter that i’m literally incapable of most visual arts [the things you look at, as oppossed to performance arts, which i excel in]. i think i burned down a house when someone tried to teach me to knit. i can’t draw a straight line WITH a straight edge to guide me. it doesn’t matter that i can’t *DO* a thousand thousand things - i can’t cook, i can’t garden, i lose things on a regular basis - 150 years ago, i’d have been the poster child for “Most likely to die through sheer incompetence”. people who can COOK amaze me. athletic people amaze me. painters and potters and sculpters - once i’m done wanting to kill them in a fit of jealous rage - ASTOUND me. i’d KILL to be able to make a comic book [but it’s even harder for a writer to get than an artist]. as far as i can tell, in the real world, the point of IQ is to give people with high IQs something to brag about and a reason to look down on everyone else. [it’s why i’m not in MENSA. MENSA pisses me off]

and that’s not even getting into, say, idiot savants, or autistic people who CAN do astrophysics in their heads at 10, but can’t tell you the plot of a fiction book…

Comment #93: denelian  on  11/30  at  05:07 AM

The multiple threads with Ta-Nehisi Coates (who is still way too personally close to Sullivan to call Andrew what he is: a piece-of-shit hack) have brought up an analogy that should be repeated: even if intelligence was objective and measurable, saying it’s only genetic would be as disingenuous as saying that gays are genetically predisposed to higher rates of suicide and depression. What, a repressive society is involved? Bushwa!

As for people who were born yesterday, suggestions to Andrew on how to improve upon his blinkered thinking are like well-meaning suggestions to Carrot Top on how to improve his prop comedy, even though I hate Carrot Top and prop comedy.

Comment #94: norbizness  on  11/30  at  10:17 AM

Ta-Nehisi Coates seems like a really nice guy and he writes like it, for good and for ill. (See also TNC’s kid gloves treatment of Jeffery Goldberg’s war and Israel mongering. Although Coates standuply admits that Goldberg was somewhat of a mentor to him.)

The thing I find interesting about the obsession of some conservatives with this is a discussion I had with one once. After the usual volleying back and forth about “What is IQ, etc.” I asked him, “Say, it’s true there are small differences in intelligence between races. Why is that important?” The answer was “Because then we have to get rid of affirmative action!”

So, the grand implication of all this is….................something they want to do anyway because they object to it on ideological grounds. I’m sure it’s all about science, though.

And who in the hell believes that things like university admissions and government hiring are distributed rigorously according to intelligence? The kind of person who believes that people whose ancestors came from Kenya in the last few decades and other people whose ancestors came from Cameroon in the 1600s are genetically similar because they both happen to have dark skin, that’s who.

Comment #95: witless chum  on  11/30  at  11:42 AM

there were extant countries in Africa in the 1600 and 1700’s that had laws and a law system as complex as our modern system [that worked a bit better, from what i understand]

Indeed, the trading empires of North Africa impressed the European explorers who visited them and lived long enough to go back to Europe and publish books about them.

and it seems to be a uniformly BAD thing to KNOW what one’s IQ is. if it’s even ONE point above “average”, everyone expects that person to be automatically and uniformly perfect in academics, they’re pushed into the hardest possible classes, and called “lazy” if/when they can’t measure up to these expectations. if it’s even ONE point below “average”, no one expects ANYTHING from you [and treats you as if you have an IQ of 50, and discourages you from taking hard classes, etc, etc]

When I took a test to measure my intelligence at the age of 12, I deliberately missed some answers because I didn’t want the school officials to know, seeing as I was already being persecuted by my classmates for being a “white sheep among the black sheep” as my father put it.

Ironically enough, it was my father the college teacher who didn’t put pressure on me for my grades, mom disagreed with him and that apparently was a bone of contention between them for a while.

I had a college professor write that I had a ‘gentlemens’ approach to her class, which was what I called ‘useless botany’, you learned all about plants except how to grow the damn things.

Thanks for the info about the Ethiopian kingdoms/empires, as I slouch towards physiological decrepitude I realize how many gaps there are in my knowledge of world history.

I can probably give a coherent account of the development of my Celtic, Germanic, English and Chinese ancestors, but I’m slowly filling in the gaps for the rest of the world, I can’t visualize a world timeline like they always have printed in reference and text books.

it also doesn’t matter that i’m literally incapable of most visual arts [the things you look at, as oppossed to performance arts, which i excel in]. i think i burned down a house when someone tried to teach me to knit. i can’t draw a straight line WITH a straight edge to guide me


BTW, you’re not a Lethal Chef, are you, denelian?

Ranma: Soup, Akane. How did you manage to burn soup? You’d better hope the EPA never finds out about you…
Akane: You could have at least tried it!
Ranma: Tried it? It was on fire! The bowl was melting! And I didn’t like the look of that portal the fumes were forming…
Akane: It was only a tiny portal. And the chanting wasn’t that ominous…
Ranma: Damnit, Akane, good cooking isn’t supposed to break the laws of reality!

— The Nameless Sequel (Ranma ½ fanfic) by Mike Loader

My mothers’ best friend, who used to work in the San Francisco Bay Area as a window dresser, told me one time that it’s not easy for most people not artists to draw a circle freehand.  I can do so, but I’m better with photography than drawing.

I was a late bloomer when it came to music, one of my brothers had perfect pitch, my sister played the violin, but I started taking piano lessons starting out as a relative beginner when I was 17, and 4 years I was playing Rachmaninoff, Bach, etc.  I was once told that I played as well as 50% of music majors, not all of whom, in fairness have the piano as their primary instrument.

and when you bring “race” into it, it’s even WORSE. because, as i and many others have said, IQ only measures for certain things.

It’s worth noting that a ‘white’ person whose ancestors goes back more than 2 or 3 generations in America has a 33% chance of having African ancestry in their bloodline.

In my family, we had an aunt who was African-American and claimed to be a child my great-grandmother had with another man, in the end, Mother and I decided that she was telling the truth, because there was no material advantage to her claiming kinship with my father’s family, she must be telling the truth.

Comment #96: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/30  at  01:11 PM

I’m just fascinated that in a society like Nazi Germany, the same people could be considered stupid sub-human vermin, and yet also be considered the evil masterminds and master manipulators who held all of mankind in the palms of their wicked hands.

Still around. Back when I was more active in fighting the White Power Rangers, I was called a “race traitor” by one of the White Aryan Resistance morons. I pointed out out that, according to his own logic, the Jews controlled everything anyway, so I wasn’t being a race traitor…I was choosing the winning side and ensuring the continuation of my lily-white genes, unlike idiots such as himself doomed to extinction.

First time I saw the text equivalent of someone’s head exploding.

Comment #97: KeithM  on  11/30  at  02:25 PM

The thing I find interesting about the obsession of some conservatives with this is a discussion I had with one once. After the usual volleying back and forth about “What is IQ, etc.” I asked him, “Say, it’s true there are small differences in intelligence between races. Why is that important?” The answer was “Because then we have to get rid of affirmative action!”

Tell them women consistently have median scores 6-8 points higher than men on IQ tests, and state that this justifies discrimination towards women.  Then watch them splutter.

(That stat was just made up, by the way - I have no idea what gender differences there are, if any.  But any fake stat sounds more authoritative if you specify “median” instead of “mean”)

Comment #98: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/30  at  02:47 PM

One of the big problems of trying to correlate American definitions of race to genetics is that if you actually look at the genetic clocks, skin color isn’t a reliable indicator of the underlying genetic relationships. There’s more genetic diversity across Africa than there is in the rest of the world combined. There’s no justification for the category “black” in terms of human evolutionary relationships.

On a TV special about that subject, they took about 100 New Yorkers who’d volunteered their DNA for the NatGeo Genographic Project to Central Park and then had them stand in approximately the shape of the continents and where they considered their family to be “originally” from. Then, they started rearranging them to where the genetics indicated the majority of their genes were actually “from” (working backward through time, so they started clumping into larger and larger groups), often to the surprise of the participants. Very quickly you had some amusing results, like the black guy standing in the middle of the otherwise pretty-white “Central Asian” population. Not to mention most of the rest of the Central Asian population who had thought of themselves as Europeans.

Comment #99: KeithM  on  11/30  at  02:50 PM

Very quickly you had some amusing results, like the black guy standing in the middle of the otherwise pretty-white “Central Asian” population. Not to mention most of the rest of the Central Asian population who had thought of themselves as Europeans.

It used to be thought in the late 19th and early 20th Century that man ‘emerged’ in Central Asia, it’s reflected in a few H. P. Lovecraft stories in passing:

The dance-hall church is now mostly a dance-hall, and queer faces have appeared at night at the windows. Lately a policeman expressed the belief that the filled-up crypt has been dug out again, and for no simply explainable purpose. Who are we to combat poisons older than history and mankind? Apes danced in Asia to those horrors, and the cancer lurks secure and spreading where furtiveness hides in rows of decaying brick.
                                 
                                      The Horror at Red Hook

 

Comment #100: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/30  at  03:57 PM

So what you’re saying is that the Lovecraft canon was infallible prophecy?

AAAARRRRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!

Comment #101: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/30  at  04:52 PM

Get this, there are people around who want to believe that humans as we know them arose in several places simultaneously, rather than drifting out of Africa.  Theoretically, it is possible ... but there has yet to be any evidence supporting the idea and a lot of research into changes in genetic lines tends to refute it.

I’m sure we all know where this goes next ...

Comment #102: Ms Kate  on  11/30  at  05:39 PM

“Horror at Red Hook” is HPL’s most racist story. From his work, letters, and bio, I don’t actually think he was particularly racist for an absurdly sheltered person of his time and place.

He had married a woman who convinced him to move to NYC—the first time he had ever left Providence—and within minutes of arrival had everything he brought with him stolen. The size and cosmopolitan nature of NYC horrified him and “Red Hook” is where he poured out everything he hated about New York.

Comment #103: Mark Temporis  on  11/30  at  10:57 PM

From his work, letters, and bio, I don’t actually think he was particularly racist for an absurdly sheltered person of his time and place.

You should consider what his wife said about him:

He married a woman of Ukrainian Jewish ancestry, Sonia Greene, who later said she had to repeatedly remind Lovecraft of her background when he made anti-Semitic remarks. “Whenever we found ourselves in the racially mixed crowds which characterize New York,” Greene wrote after her divorce from Lovecraft, “Howard would become livid with rage. He seemed almost to lose his mind.”[11]

Comment #104: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/30  at  11:28 PM

If we want to discuss unscientific observations as per the Bell Curve, I’ll throw mine in.  Based on my educational experiences in high school and college…here are some of my observations:

Women excel in all academics…especially in math/science as women at my urban public math/science high school ended up taking the valedictorian spot for at least 3 years in a row.  In at least one of those years….women took both the val and sal spots.

African-Americans seem to self-select into engineering, pre-med, law, and math/CS. 

Latinos tend to self-select into law, pre-med, pharmacy, math/CS, and public policy. 

White male high school football players seem to have a paranoid fear of anything computer related.* 

Kids in the bottom quarter of the graduating class tended to be overwhelmingly White, Asian, and male. 

Some of the laziest undergrads I’ve ever met tended to be White “native Americans” who blame all of their academic failures on “those damned furriners”/“foreign-Americans” and their supposed “thick accents”.


* Really weird considering computer usage/geekery was so prevalent at our high school.  A reason why a film about teen hackers was filmed at our school. 

And another reason it’s not useful to have the argument: progress really slows down if you have to have the same argument as you had debunking this crap 30 years ago.

In short, if people are going to be in a public conversation, it’s not unreasonable to expect them to do their homework. And not doing your homework is a very effective way of holding back the people who have done theirs.

One of the reasons I’ve seen with problems in US K-12 education resulting in the need for remediation classes in college and underpreparation for most high school graduates for work/college is that disruptive students take up a disproportionate amount of the teacher’s time at the expense of the rest of the class.  Whether they make loud noises or ask incessant questions that were covered in previous classes/just five minutes previously to get attention and/or irk the teacher.*  The effects of one such student can already have a seriously negative effect on the learning process of the rest of the class. 

Imagine if the class had several or more such students distributed within a given class….

* This behavior continues in college as one classmate and I witnessed in one English lit class where another classmate did the above along with using the stock answer “Water, a symbol of life”......even when the work being examined never mentioned or even indirectly referenced water…..

Comment #105: exholt  on  12/01  at  03:51 AM

Gould’s book is largely out of date.

1. The abilities tested appear to reflect underlying neurobiology. See the research of UCLA neuroscientist Paul Thompson who summarises the research here with Yale psychologist Jeremey Gray.

http://www.yale.edu/scan/GT_2004_NRN.pdf

2. Variation in cognitive ability is significantly due to variation in genes. See the recent study lead by Ian Deary.

“To test his idea, researchers looked at more than half a million locations in the genetic code of 3,511 unrelated adults. Each of these sites is where people are known to have single-letter variations in their DNA, called single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs). These variations were correlated with the individuals’ performance in two types of psychometric tests that are established in assessing intelligence: one test measuring recalled knowledge (via vocabulary) and the second measuring problem-solving skills.

They found that 40% of the variation in knowledge (called “crystallised intelligence” by the researchers) and 51% of the variation in problem-solving skills (“fluid-type intelligence”) between individuals could be accounted for by the differences in DNA. The results are published on Tuesday in the journal Molecular Psychiatry.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/aug/09/genetic-differences-intelligence

3. Group differences in g are actually well known by researchers. (see Philip L Roth’s 2001 meta analysis in Personal Psychology, Volume 54, Issue 2, pages 297–330, June 2001).

4. The hard question is what causes these differences. When privately polled in the 1980′s relatively few academics seemed to think these were purely environmental, compared to those who thought they are due to both environmental and genetic variation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_IQ_Controversy,_the_Media_and_Public_Policy_(book)

5. It’s not that implausible that different geographic and cultural environments would favor different physical and mental traits over thousands of generations. Professor Robert A. Weinberg, winner of the 1997 National Medal of Science. Weinberg delivers the final lecture in Biology 7.012 at MIT (2004):

Weinberg (@ 32:40): ... And what happens if one of these days people discover alleles for certain aspects of cognitive function? Chess playing ability. The ability to learn five different languages. The ability to remember strings of numbers. The ability to speak extemporaneously in front of a class, for what it’s worth, for 50 minutes several times a week.

Whatever ability you want, valued or not so valued, what if those alleles begin to come out? And here’s the worse part. What if somebody begins to look for the frequency of those alleles in different ethnic groups scattered across this planet? Now, you will say to me, well, God has made all his children equal. But the fact is if you look at the details of human evolution, some of which I discussed with you a week ago, last week, you’ll come to realize that most populations in humanity are the modern descendents of very small founder groups.

... So the fact is it’s inescapable that different alleles are going to be present with different frequencies in different inbreeding populations of humanity or populations of humanity that traditionally have been genetically isolated from one another.”

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/biology/7-012-introduction-to-biology-fall-2004/index.htm

 

Comment #106: Pearlstein  on  12/01  at  06:49 AM

***as for the blackout, consider:

http://duende.uoregon.edu/~hsu/talks/ggoogle.pdf***

Yes, but the Harvard Medical School talk was cancelled. And note that the project Hsu is involved in originated in China! And realistically that is the most likely place for further research on the topic.

“But the organisation is involved in even more controversial projects. It is about to embark on a search for the genetic underpinning of intelligence. Two thousand Chinese schoolchildren will have 2,000 of their protein-coding genes sampled, and the results correlated with their test scores at school. Though it will cover less than a tenth of the total number of protein-coding genes, it will be the largest-scale examination to date of the idea that differences between individuals’ intelligence scores are partly due to differences in their DNA.

Dr Yang is also candid about the possibility of the 1,000-genome project revealing systematic geographical differences in human genetics—or, to put it politically incorrectly, racial differences. The differences that have come to light so far are not in sensitive areas such as intelligence. But if his study of schoolchildren does find genes that help control intelligence, a comparison with the results of the 1,000-genome project will be only a mouse-click away.”

http://www.economist.com/node/16349434?story_id=16349434

Comment #107: Pearlstein  on  12/01  at  06:54 AM

Dr Yang is also candid about the possibility of the 1,000-genome project revealing systematic geographical differences in human genetics—or, to put it <strike>politically</strike> incorrectly, racial differences.

Sorry, but political correctness doesn’t figure in here.  Scientific correctness does. Note the entire discussion in this thread about how race is NOT a scientific construct?  And why?

That isn’t a “blackout” that is called “quality control”.  Science needs more of it, not less.

Comment #108: Ms Kate  on  12/01  at  10:45 AM

When they can link genes to intelligence in the laboratory animal Rattus norvegicus, then we’ll be able to talk about inheritance and intelligence.

Otherwise, it’s all arm-waving and special pleading.

In this article, the authors argue that the overwhelming portion of the literature on intelligence, race, and genetics is based on folk taxonomies rather than scientific analysis. They suggest that because theorists of intelligence disagree as to what it is, any consideration of its relationships to other constructs must be tentative at best. They further argue that race is a social construction with no scientific definition. Thus, studies of the relationship between race and other constructs may serve social ends but cannot serve scientific ends. No gene has yet been conclusively linked to intelligence, so attempts to provide a compelling genetic link of race to intelligence are not feasible at this time. The authors also show that heritability, a behaviorgenetic concept, is inadequate in regard to providing such a link. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2010 APA, all rights reserved)

Unfortunately, some scientists are still racists:

Controversial interpretation of scientific data with racial implications has not been confined to a bygone era; contemporary leaders in the field of genetics have continued the tradition. Dr James Watson, who codiscovered that deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) had a double-helix form and who founded the International Human Genome Project, has made statements alluding to the anthropological differences of populations, outside the realm of medically beneficial genetic research. In November 2000, Dr Watson argued that there was a direct correlation between an individual’s skin pigment and libido. The darker the person, Watson argued, the greater their sex drive (Aidi, 2001). See also Watson, James Dewey

http://ispu.org/pdfs/naturepaper.pdf

Do you think a study should be done to test Dr. Watson’s hypothesis, Pearlstein?

 

Comment #109: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/01  at  10:46 AM

Also, if the abilities tested reflect “underlying neurobiology”, so what?  Identical twins of persons affected by schitzophrenia don’t automatically share their “underlying neurobiology” despite both identical genes and nearly identical environment!

Those of us in environmental disciplines know damn well that nerurobiological development is extremely sensitive to, say, lead levels ...

Garbage masquerading as science yet again.

Comment #110: Ms Kate  on  12/01  at  10:49 AM

Ms. Kate, Pearlstein couldn’t tell a population from a ‘race’ if his life depended on it.

Comment #111: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/01  at  10:57 AM

He probably thinks a “confounder” is like a bounty hunter.

The belief that genes are entirely deterministic is very attractive, but extremely wrong.  Interactions between polymorphisms and environmental and microbiological environments are the cutting edge now - and those environmental and microbiological environments are highly correlated with location, social status, etc. 

I think the lifelong followup of kids who were living in Chelsea, MA for lead exposure, IQ, and neurobiological outcomes says a whole lot about this.  If they have shown lifelong effects on IQ, behavioral issues, and now emerging evidence of diseases of aging correlated with lead exposure, I somehow doubt that their genetic heritage (mostly white, Irish and Italian ...) had shit-all to do with it.

Comment #112: Ms Kate  on  12/01  at  11:25 AM

Yes, but the Harvard Medical School talk was cancelled. And note that the project Hsu is involved in originated in China! And realistically that is the most likely place for further research on the topic.

Hate to break it to ya, but even ETS….the makers of the SATs/GREs have disavowed them as psychometric tests of intelligence. 

The fact one can study and improve their scores substantially is proof enough.  From my own observations…there are plenty of high SAT scorers that end up flunking out of college or flounder to graduation with -C/C averages after 4+ years.  On the other hand, I’ve known several people with objectively abysmal SAT scores(think below 1000/1600 on the Pre-1995 SATs) who ended up excelling in college and in life as working professionals/innovators. 

Just from the first few pages…Hsu’s study seems to be premised on half-baked ideas that even ETS wouldn’t necessarily endorse. 

“But the organisation is involved in even more controversial projects. It is about to embark on a search for the genetic underpinning of intelligence. Two thousand Chinese schoolchildren will have 2,000 of their protein-coding genes sampled, and the results correlated with their test scores at school.

Wonder how they’re going to control for the extreme differences in Chinese educational emphasis which still promote heavy rote memorization and cramming of facts over critical/analytical thinking and creativity.*  The latter two are still strongly discouraged by the educational establishment/government to the point many well-off Chinese families are starting a trend to send their kids to American colleges/high schools. 

* From what I’ve heard from Mainland Chinese international grad students….Chinese education up to….and including undergrad is mostly a “sit down, shut up, and take notes for however long the Prof lectures/drones on for 50+ minutes” affair.  Not very different from the systems my parents grew up with in the early-mid 20th century in Mainland China and the ROC(Taiwan).

Comment #113: exholt  on  12/01  at  12:49 PM

“sit down, shut up, and take notes for however long the Prof lectures/drones on for 50+ minutes” affair.

I once asked a Chinese Mainland cousin of mine about the differences between the classes here and there, and she reported the same thing, adding that any questions would have to wait until after class was over to ask the professor any questions about his lecture.

OTHO, I remember someone telling me about about an American college professor of the humanities who gave his lectures from a book he had written, reading it in class at a desk, head bent over, for the entire time.

 

 

 

Comment #114: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/01  at  01:29 PM

Kids from black families with incomes of over 200.000$ scored lower on the SAT than white kids from families with 20.000-40.000$ incomes. How does the “paint chip” theory explain this.

Income is not wealth. 

Money does not erase prejudice, in fact sometimes it intensifies it.

Comment #115: oldfeminist  on  12/01  at  01:50 PM

Consider as well that there are so few families with incomes over $200k that any estimate is bound to be unstable.

Current income does not measure previous privation, nor cultural issues that influence neurodevelopment, educational attainment, etc.  If your parent makes that kind of money as a sports or entertainment figure who is rarely around, or who did not have much formal education, your scores will likely suffer.

Comment #116: Ms Kate  on  12/01  at  02:47 PM

I once asked a Chinese Mainland cousin of mine about the differences between the classes here and there, and she reported the same thing, adding that any questions would have to wait until after class was over to ask the professor any questions about his lecture.

That’s assuming the Prof/teacher in question is not going to berate you for your “stupidity” or tell you to “figure it out for yourself”....assuming he/she is even willing to answer questions. 

OTHO, I remember someone telling me about about an American college professor of the humanities who gave his lectures from a book he had written, reading it in class at a desk, head bent over, for the entire time.

In the US, the above would be cited as an example of crappy teaching to be harshly criticized and denounced.  Heck…such a Prof would be extremely unlikely to be hired at most liberal arts colleges* and teaching-oriented universities as the above would be perceived as a clear indication the Prof/teacher is indifferent or even outrights hates teaching undergrads. 

In Mainland China/ROC(Taiwan)....profs like the above are “business as usual”.  Heck, sounds like most Profs my parents and older relatives had in Mainland China/ROC during the mid-20th century.

* My alma mater recently screened out several prospective Profs over the years precisely to minimize the possibility of hiring an academic teaching dud like the above Prof.

Comment #117: exholt  on  12/01  at  03:19 PM

@115,

Only the best and brightest in that low income group - the ones with some shot at college on scholarship - take the SAT.  It isn’t compulsory. I can think of only one other kid in my trailer park in my class who did so.

Comment #118: Ms Kate  on  12/01  at  03:22 PM

Ms Kate is absolutely right.  This is similar to why comparing US HS graduates and those of countries where the mjority of the population doesn’t finish HS (or possibly doesn’t even start HS) are worthless as real comparisons of the countries’ schools.

Comment #119: helen w. h.  on  12/02  at  01:39 PM

Only the best and brightest in that low income group - the ones with some shot at college on scholarship - take the SAT.

Sometimes twice, to get the best scores in both categories.

Tt wasn’t until I saw my PSAT that a teacher carelessly left out in his desk for me to see, I wasn’t aware that I really was that bright, I always thought of myself as “above average” even though I didn’t grow up in Lake Wobegon.  grin

Comment #120: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/02  at  04:27 PM
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