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Next entry: Fundies probably don’t do it better Previous entry: Netroots Nation Panel!

Mega Science For Choads Debunking

I wish Slate would let me embed their frigging videos, because I’d love to embed the one they have up summarizing a series up by Amanda Schaffer examining all the non-science masquerading as science that claims to find vast differences between men and women’s brains, differences that always point to women being a biologically inferior sex—-stupid, talks too much, illogical, only good for being fucked and diapering babies.  Sadly, there are now women writing books in this vein, though of course they dress up the differences in language that pretends that they’re not claiming that women are inferior and should be relegated to second class status.  If you slap a woman’s name on a book that claims women are inferior, it gives it more credibility, which it shouldn’t, because believers should automatically assume that the female author is as stupid as the rest of her gender supposedly is.  But you know, you can’t claim it’s sexist if a woman said it.

I say bullshit.  But read Schaffer’s easy and quick series to see why.  Claims about scientific discoveries of women’s natural inferiority are usually not worth the paper they’re printed on, but they sell well because they appeal to people’s “common sense”.  But what we perceive to be true is rarely correlated directly with what is true, and there’s many reasonable explanations for the beliefs that Schaffer debunks in this piece.


Women talk more than men.  This is because people compare how much you talk to a baseline of how much you should talk ideally.  The baseline for men is “frequently” and for women it’s “little to never”.  Women do talk more than our allotted baseline, but as it turns out, we don’t talk more than men.  I mean, I do.  But I’m the exception to the rule.

Women are more empathetic.  This is the bait of praise (see, you’re better at something, isn’t that special?), but the switch is that women’s supposed greater empathy means that we get to have all the responsibility for family relations and worse, dancing around trying to read men’s brains and adapt our behavior to our partners (lesbians are completely left out of the equation, or assumed to be some kind of he-women), instead of men giving an inch.  You see, men would love to do nice things for us and care about us in return, but they can’t.  So all the emotional work is yours, ladies.  Schaffer shows that what little evidence there is for women’s greater empathy is muddled and points not to “hardwired” differences, but environmental ones.  If men had as much responsibility for emotional work as women, they’d be as empathetic.

Women are less logical.  Pretty much all attempts to shoehorn women out of the higher-paying fields of math and science into the arts or even the nurturing fields is based on a single study showing men are a little better at rotating 3D objects in their head.  You just know that if it had gone the other way around, they’d claim that this shows that women are evolved to spend all our time at home rearranging furniture.

Anyway, these are just my takes on the whole shebang.  Schaffer’s got the goods, science-wise. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:25 PM • (50) Comments

I was too intimidated by the length of the piece to try to serious blog it, but it was totally awesome, I read it on my lunch break today at work.

Comment #1: Lisa KS  on  07/08  at  12:04 AM

Pretty much all attempts to shoehorn women out of the higher-paying fields of math and science into the arts or even the nurturing fields is based on a single study showing men are a little better at rotating 3D objects in their head.

IQ tests are really good at identifying people who score well on IQ tests.

Comment #2: pepito  on  07/08  at  12:04 AM

Language Log had a really good series debunking the “women talk more than men” myth a while back here.

The popularity of these sorts of myths, and how often people say that they jibe with their experiences really shows why the scientific method exists: to prevent people from fooling themselves.

Comment #3: Max Polun  on  07/08  at  12:07 AM

Which is why people are against the scientific method.

Not science per se.

Just the idea that their natural and unsophisticated solipsim can be challenged, with the implication that they have to have empathy for objects not them.

Comment #4: shah8  on  07/08  at  12:38 AM

“British psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen” sounds like a Borat joke.

Comment #5: Hector B.  on  07/08  at  01:19 AM

Actually, it turns out women aren’t so welcome in the arts either.
According to “outspoken”(read:asshole) art critic Brian Sewell, it has to do with…wait for it…SPATIAL PERCEPTION!!  Y’see, if you can’t rotate 3D objects in your head you can’t do art.  And women can’t, so there you go.
Turns out spatial perception is what makes you rock in both the arts AND science!  And only men have it!  Wow, what a coincidence.

Comment #6: Nico  on  07/08  at  01:37 AM

Gives you hope right? As a scientist I had begun to think that we are doomed to never have honest science reporting. But then most Americans don’t “believe” in evolution so I suppose we’ve been doomed and perhaps we can only get better? Well paternalistic, privileged, sexist, and racist junk science still roam freely so maybe my fears are still valid…

Comment #7: Chaz  on  07/08  at  01:42 AM

“British psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen” sounds like a Borat joke.

They’re cousins.

Comment #8: chingona  on  07/08  at  01:55 AM

I work in the arts, I’m female, and spatial perception is pretty much my job. Suck it, Brian Sewell!

Comment #9: Ginger  on  07/08  at  01:57 AM

Baron-Cohen calls the empathizing brain type E, or “the female brain,” and contrasts it with systematizing brain type S, or “the male brain.” But only 44 percent of women are type E—not even a majority. Which makes the labeling seem odd. When I asked him about this, Baron-Cohen admitted that he’s thought twice about his male brain/female brain terminology, but he didn’t disavow it.

Thought this was pretty interesting. We are so wedded to these ideas we cannot even really see what is in front of us.

Comment #10: chingona  on  07/08  at  02:21 AM

IIRC, empathy turns out to be a function of being subordinate, not of gender.  For instance, employees are much more aware of their boss’s moods than the boss is aware of his/her employees’ moods, and the same is true if you’re talking about a male admin assistant to a female boss as it is the other way around.

Comment #11: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  02:26 AM

I work in the arts, I’m female, and spatial perception is pretty much my job. Suck it, Brian Sewell!

Furthermore, as a man, Brian Sewell should be able to mentally picture dozens of different angles at which he can suck it.

Comment #12: FlipYrWhig  on  07/08  at  02:27 AM

If you slap a woman’s name on a book that claims women are inferior, it gives it more credibility, which it shouldn’t, because believers should automatically assume that the female author is as stupid as the rest of her gender supposedly is.

It just goes to show that it’s easier for you to accept unreasonable positions if your thinking is fundamentally unreasonable.

Comment #13: gordo  on  07/08  at  02:45 AM

Mnemosyne, that deserves a blog all by itself.

Comment #14: Lisa KS  on  07/08  at  02:52 AM

My infant nephew, a week shy of his first birthday, is positively enthusiastic about rearranging furniture.  I think it’s mostly about his realization of the mobility of things relative to his strength. His idea of redecoration is throwing everything on the floor.

His mother, my brother’s second wife, is thought to talk too much by the adult children of his first wife, whom they themselves agree isn’t quite sane. I’m not sure of this talking too much; I like wife II. Phone conversations with my brother consist of long silences - we agree with each other too much to need to say anything. With wife, nieces and nephews I tend to chat up a storm.

So, if someone is thought to talk too much, I have to ask if he or she is compensating, dealing with things, carrying the load, and so forth and so on. I like hanging out with my chatty sister-in-law, and it’s not just the adorable child.

Comment #15: bad Jim  on  07/08  at  05:35 AM

Chinoga, quoting: Baron-Cohen calls the empathizing brain type E, or “the female brain,” and contrasts it with systematizing brain type S, or “the male brain.” But only 44 percent of women are type E—not even a majority.

I remember that test from when it first made the rounds (2004?) and was talked about at MakingLight. IIRC, pretty much the only commenter who didn’t score high S was male. (I’m a male with Aspbergers, it seems. )

Of course, the test asked about what you were interested in and what you believed to be your strengths—not what you actually were good in. And speaking from personal experience, I have met quite a lot of women who prided themselves on their empathic ability when they were just enthusiastic in forming theories about elementary body language readings, and men who believed in their superiour logic if they could understand a simple syllogism.

Comment #16: inge  on  07/08  at  06:14 AM

The BBC website had a test thing that measured whether you were a man or a woman, based on all sorts of shit like rotating 3D objects and finger length.  Turns out, I’m a guy.  You know the type, boobs, XX, etc.
What a load of crap.

Comment #17: volvatrack7  on  07/08  at  06:36 AM

That series is brilliant, and debunks a lot of myths.  It also left me shaking my head in some places, especially when it turns out that some of the research the whole “women are empathic and lousy at math” crap is based on is over forty years old.  That right there should have eliminated it from consideration, given the advances in science and medicine since the 1960’s.

I also think Simon Baron-Cohen should be ashamed of himself for labeling “empathic brains” female based on a *minority* of his study subjects.  Inexcusable.

Comment #18: Ellid  on  07/08  at  08:21 AM

Oh dear lord, I just took that BBC test and I’m seriously wondering how they grade you “male” or “female”.  I came up “male” in all but one of the individual tests but was graded “female” overall.  The test relies heavily on Baron-Cohen’s ‘work’ and the loading screens are filled with fun facts like “women talk a lot!” and “men are better at math!” “it’s all about testosterone in the womb!”.

What is fun to see is when you’re finished it shows you the results of the average male who took the test and the average female, and they are very, very close.

Comment #19: Arianna  on  07/08  at  08:51 AM

Until I became a father (of a boy) I saw gender based issues as “environmental not biological”.  My views changed dramatically as I witnessed my son amongst other boys and girls while very young.

The problems I see muddling through this often hinges upon How our socialization of our children makes their gender differences More Important in non-healthy ways and how we Push Sexist (and simply illogical) conclusions upon what differences exist.

We - males - are clearly the “weaker gender” - based upon our mortality (see my excessively too long blog entry of April 28, 2008 - at www.geoisphere.blogspot.com - with US Census Mortality statistics by gender).  Rates of attention deficit disorder and similar are much higher in boys than in girls.  Rather than acknowledging these kinds of things and trying to make things better, we are hung up upon how upon average us Males are “physically stronger” than women and how “males are better in math and the sciences” and similar.

Often we use lousy data to “prove” points which support Profit and/or Career Advancement.  Women in areas such as Psychology as well as the media get attention for “thought provoking” idiotic analyses of gender issues which support Sexist conclusions - duh! 

Reactionary forces who have lots of power are part of this of course.  Racism also is used - divisively particularly in the media to get attention - money and “fame”.  The incredible authors who lovingly study racism (suggesting difficult, but important paths to help end it) get perhaps 1/100th of 1% or the attention that Don Imus and Reverend Wright get.  It is simply much easier to play upon peoples’ angst - our fears, etc. - rather than telling difficult truths.

We men - are different than “you” women are.  We are not “better” than you are.  My Black Partner is different from me Both because of our gender and “race” differences.  Obviously the Sexism and Racism she faces alone make her life much, much, much tougher than mine is.  At the same time I don’t want to minimize the biological aspects of our differences either.  Thanks!

Comment #20: Geo  on  07/08  at  09:02 AM

Brian Sewell is the douchebag who loudly objected to Gateshead being selected as the site of a particular art exhibition, pretty much explicitly on the grounds that northerners are uneducated, working-class Philistines who don’t deserve the opportunity to look at art they’re too monkey-like to appreciate.

Comment #21: Bella  on  07/08  at  10:38 AM

Baron-Cohen’s an ass. It appalls me that he’s lauded for his work on autism—which, as far as I can tell, is really just part of his Brains of Mars and Venus agenda.

Comment #22: mythago  on  07/08  at  10:45 AM

I’m not really even sure if that bit about visualizing 3D objects in your head is right.  I spent some time in Math graduate school in the 80s and here’s my anecdotal and unscientific observations:

1.  The women who made to that level were brilliant, and never had any problems grasping any of the concepts, no matter how deep. 

2.  A lot of the men at that level were very good, but sometimes struggled with some of the more difficult ideas, and got help from their colleagues in sorting it out.

While the men in math graduate school at that time outnumbered the women something like 5 to 1, the women at that level were, on average, equal to the top 20% of the men. (in my estimation, which may not be the same as the faculty’s estimation at the time)

My conjecture is that real mathematical genius is rare, but probably just as common among women as men.  The women that truly possess it can succeed without the social support network that the merely good men possess.  The people who are middling smart need a social support to advance, which is more geared towards men than women.  My experience in this area is over 20 years ago, so I hope there have been some advances, but I haven’t been in an academic atmosphere for quite a while, so I don’t know.

Comment #23: Mark B. from Austin TX  on  07/08  at  10:49 AM

Mark B.: Or possibly not so much a support network as the fact that for a woman to get to that level, she has to prove not only that she is as good as the male candidates but that she is better, because her gender works against her in applying.

?

Comment #24: Rebecca  on  07/08  at  10:59 AM

The people who are middling smart need a social support [network] to advance, which is more geared towards men than women.

The social support network I’m talking about here is people who are willing to discuss mathematics with her, not just her emotional well-being.  Chances are, in high school, she didn’t know any other girls interested in math, and the guys didn’t want to talk about that with her.  It’s probably all OK by graduate school, but by that time, a lot of winnowing has occurred.

she has to prove not only that she is as good as the male candidates but that she is better, because her gender works against her in applying

At that time, and it may be different, very few women were applyin to math graduate school.  In there were very few women in advanced classes at the undergraduate level.  While discrimination against applicants may have been a factor, it’s certainly not the only factor.  I think it happens much earlier in girls’ educational careers.

Comment #25: Mark B. from Austin TX  on  07/08  at  11:19 AM

Please excuse the festival of typos in the previous post.  I’m not quite that illiterate, usually.

Comment #26: Mark B. from Austin TX  on  07/08  at  11:20 AM

While discrimination against applicants may have been a factor, it’s certainly not the only factor

Oh, of course. And I agree with you about the social network and how it’s geared more towards men - I think that and admissions bias come from the same root, that math has long been considered a “male” field.

Comment #27: Rebecca  on  07/08  at  11:24 AM

The thing that has invariably driven me insane about this research is: the *exact* same data that says that men are better at math, says women are better at all language and verbal skills. So, since 85% of all engineers are male, that means that 85% of all scriptwriters, novel writers, columnists, comedians, speechwriters, translators, and diplomats are female, right? Right?

Oh, wait, they’re not? Well, then *fuck*, I guess there must be something more than “biological differences in gendered brains” going on!

I mean, if you actually drill down into the gender differences research, what you find is that the only constant across all cultures is that men are always more violent. Given that you can’t find any consistent superiority in male mentation, but you can find male superiority at killing shit and beating people up, and given that we live in a world dominated by men, doesn’t this suggest that we live in a world dominated by men not because they’re better at anything worthwhile but because they kill and beat up anyone who challenges their authoritah? Which, you know, doesn’t make any sort of good argument for preserving the patriarchal status quo?

It’s amazing to me how “Men have a tiny .05% average superiority on mathematical exams, therefore men should rule the world!” is a vastly more common meme than “90% of all murderers are male, therefore women should rule the world,” despite the fact that 90% of all murderers being male probably represents a real biological difference that does *not* favor men (in any moral sense; it favors men in the sense that people who are better than other people at killing people can terrorize other people into submission better), and .05% average differences might represent statistical artifacts, let alone mere cultural differences, and almost *certainly* do not need biological variation to explain them.

(I should point out, for fairness’ sake, that 80% of all murder victims are also male. I would like to know why murder is not considered a “men’s issue” and a “male problem” the way rape is considered a female problem, or even the way domestic violence is considered a female problem, given that the percentage of murder victims who are male is similar to the percentage of DV victims who are female.)

Comment #28: Alara Rogers  on  07/08  at  12:04 PM

Word, Ms. Rogers.

Comment #29: Rebecca  on  07/08  at  12:27 PM

Actually, if you really want to point the finger, point it at the colleges which never gave their scientists a good course in statistics, specifically one that addressed the difference between statistical significance and statistical power. A .05% difference in average ability can be statistically significant with a large enough sample size, but at the same time it’s not very statistically powerful.

That is to say: first, the result of the experiment is due to an actual bias rather than random chance. Second, if you actually selected a random man and a random woman who participated in the experiment, it’s pretty much a coin flip whether he did better than she did - meaning gender doesn’t account for as much of the difference in “spacial ability” or whatever as other factors do.

Comment #30: Glazius  on  07/08  at  12:48 PM

Re: the education aspect

I noticed a bias towards accepting female graduate students in engineering (I just finished up my Master’s this past spring) rather than the opposite.  At least at the universities I applied to, they’re trying to get more women in engineering to demonstrate diversity.  I participated in several studies and programs during grad school to help recruiters figure out how to attract more women.  I’m not sure if the math and hard sciences did the same thing, but it was pretty consistant across the engineering colleges. 

I heard a lot about the social network idea for the average math students, mostly revolving around role models.  Because engineering is male-dominated, a fair number of high school guys choose to go into it because they have a (male) relative/role model in engineering, whereas the average female students will pick something else because they don’t have any female role models in the sciences.

Comment #31: Emaloo  on  07/08  at  12:50 PM

Emaloo, I noticed that too when looking at schools - Mark was talking about the 80s, however, a period about which I know little, and perhaps that was not the case then. :D Correct me if I’m wrong.

Comment #32: Rebecca  on  07/08  at  01:00 PM

A few random thoughts:

I heard about this guy a few years back - he’s a top research scientist who used to be a woman, and given that he has the same brain he had when he was a woman, he’s pretty well placed to talk about the effect of sexism on how women’s intelligence is perceived.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201883.html

After he underwent a sex change nine years ago at the age of 42, Barres recalled, another scientist who was unaware of it was heard to say, “Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister’s.”

And as a female undergraduate at MIT, Barres once solved a difficult math problem that stumped many male classmates, only to be told by a professor: “Your boyfriend must have solved it for you.”

“By far,” Barres wrote, “the main difference I have noticed is that people who don’t know I am transgendered treat me with much more respect” than when he was a woman. “I can even complete a whole sentence without being interrupted by a man.”

About a year ago, I saw something on television about raising boys that wasn’t nearly as bad as these things sometimes are and actually ran counter to a lot of the conventional wisdom. The main gist of it was that boys are more emotionally sensitive than our culture gives them credit for and they need to have that acknowledged and have space to express it to grow into healthy men. They visited a researcher who was doing this experiment with babies in which the mother would coo and interact with her baby for a minute and then look at the child stone-faced for another minute. The boy babies actually became very distressed when they weren’t getting any feedback from their mothers and would very quickly start to cry, whereas the girl babies were more likely to decide that mom sure was being boring and start looking around the room for something else to look at. This doesn’t really speak to empathy, but it speaks to emotional self-reliance, something that we tend to think of as male. The scientist said it was about 75/25 that the babies would react in the expected way for their gender. I understand that this could be just another form of gender essentialism, but I bring it up because 1) it runs counter to stereotypes of women being more emotional and 2) even here, where the researcher is finding a large disparity, you still have a whole quarter of each group that doesn’t conform.

All that said, even if there are slight differences in the aggregate between men’s and women’s brains, it doesn’t really tell you anything about any partiular individual, and my response becomes “So?” It would be really scary if the pseudoscientific research gets used to justify policies that reinforce traditional roles and realms for each gender based on how 51 percent or even 75 percent of that gender thinks or feels or reacts.

One last point, I’ve heard so many people insist that they thought gender differences were purely social until they had kids and they see that the girl is so girly or the boy is so boy-y, and I’m really confused as to how people reach these conclusions. 1) The way we treat little girls and boys, from their first breaths, are different in so many ways that are too subtle for us to even be conscious of - I don’t know how you would ever tease out the nature vs. the nurture and 2) You’re basing that one a very small sample size - your own children - and how they are as individuals doesn’t really tell you anything about male and female across the 6 billion people on the planet.

Sorry this is so long. This is a really interesting topic.

Comment #33: chingona  on  07/08  at  01:20 PM

The thing that has invariably driven me insane about this research is: the *exact* same data that says that men are better at math, says women are better at all language and verbal skills. So, since 85% of all engineers are male, that means that 85% of all scriptwriters, novel writers, columnists, comedians, speechwriters, translators, and diplomats are female, right? Right?

And, speaking as someone who IS an engineer, roughly 90% of my daily work is communication and writing and only 10% is actual math. Someone has to write down the assumptions that went into that math, the best ways to test and replicate it, how to utilize the end result, troubleshooting, etc. (Although 90% of my college work was - now out-of-date - math and 10% was writing, good going colleges!) So, it’s starting to make sense that engineers should be predominantly female, just based on the essentialist strategy. smile

Comment #34: Faye  on  07/08  at  01:49 PM

All that said, even if there are slight differences in the aggregate between men’s and women’s brains, it doesn’t really tell you anything about any partiular individual, and my response becomes “So?” It would be really scary if the pseudoscientific research gets used to justify policies that reinforce traditional roles and realms for each gender based on how 51 percent or even 75 percent of that gender thinks or feels or reacts.

And in fact, one of the worst things about the books discussed in Schaffer’s essays is that they give ammunition to (white, male) self-proclaimed “feminists” who want to “celebrate women” by “acknowledging their strengths,” which naturally boils down to reinforcing oppressive gender stereotypes. Women are empathetic and nurturing, so true feminism means encouraging women to embrace their inner stay-at-home mom.

More speculatively: I feel that in our relatively gender-charged culture, even fairly innocent ‘factual’ statements (“Men are better than women at spatial reasoning”) almost always get burdened with—or intentionally conceal—some kind of normative shadow-statement as well (“Men should be…”). Maybe this is just paranoid?

Comment #35: jericho  on  07/08  at  02:58 PM

I’m a construction field engineer.  Not even 90% of my work is mathematical.  The split would be more 98% vs. 2%.  When I was doing a bit of facilities design, it was more 95-90% vs. 5-10%, depending on the stage of the design.  And most of the math tended to have to do with standardized tables rather than actual equation crunching.

My husband, a heavy duty design engineer in ME and EE, spends closer to a 55% vs. 45% split, still favoring communication, when in the most heavily focused design stages.

Comment #36: Helen H  on  07/08  at  03:08 PM

More speculatively: I feel that in our relatively gender-charged culture, even fairly innocent ‘factual’ statements (“Men are better than women at spatial reasoning”) almost always get burdened with—or intentionally conceal—some kind of normative shadow-statement as well (“Men should be…”). Maybe this is just paranoid?

Not at all.  Think of all of the cultural statements about sex that talk about how all men want sex all the time with as many women as possible.  What room does that leave for men with low sex drives, or men who prefer monogamy?  Well, they must not be manly enough, and they have to conceal that weakness.

Comment #37: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  03:08 PM

Amanda,
Its just the flash player being used.  The same video is available on slatev, click menu for a pop up that includes “get embed code”.

Comment #38: Dan (Fitness)  on  07/08  at  03:59 PM

<chingona: One last point, I’ve heard so many people insist that they thought gender differences were purely social until they had kids and they see that the girl is so girly or the boy is so boy-y, and I’m really confused as to how people reach these conclusions.>

Makes me think of some friends with both a son and daughter. The father told me a story about how he was amazed at how fearless his little girl was in the playground. He was athletic, his son didn’t seem to be heading in that direction and he was pinning some hope that the girl would be the family jock.

Ten minutes later, the mother was raving to me about how her little girl loved sparkly things and dress-up. And how it must be innate in females. I highly doubt she’d have encouraged her son to play with toy makeup kits and plastic beads, but then, he wouldn’t have wanted to, since being attracted to bright shiny objects is only innate in girls and male homosexuals.

But it’s worked itself out now and the children have taken their proper roles in life. The girl is a shy adolescent, constantly ducking her head and apologizing like a good girl should. I guess she’d just had some kind of freakish testosterone/estrogen imbalance in her earlier years that made her prone to wild displays of physical daring and agility. And the little boy is going to be a real man, since he’s very interested in spectator sports. I’m absolutely sure these changes have nothing to do with the expectations of their parents, teachers, and peers, since none of these factors have any bearing on child development. It’s merely proof that, yes, girls and boys are vastly different. Sometimes you have to encourage these differences by making the proper toys and activities available, and discouraging their interest in inappropriate avenues, but with a little effort, and the help of friends, family, school and the media, boys and girls will fall naturally into their true roles.

Comment #39: ksms  on  07/08  at  05:01 PM

Going back a ways, I also found this article to be good at debunking myths.

Comment #40: JohnL  on  07/08  at  05:19 PM

Exactly. My son is two-and-a-half. He loves trucks, animals, dinosaurs and blocks. He loves “helping” his father with repairs around the house. He also loves helping us cook and sweep up and clean things. And he loves wrapping his stuffed animals in blankies and putting them on his shoulder and rocking them to sleep oh so gently. If we didn’t want him doing some of those things and we preferred that he only do other things on that list, it wouldn’t be that hard to steer him. And he wouldn’t necessarily be that unhappy because most kids that age, tantrums aside, actually really want to please the adults in their lives, and he does genuinely like those “boy” things. And why not? All those things are fun things. But I think he’s more completely himself if he gets to do all those things - the rough-housing and the cuddling, the fixing and the cooking. In particular, I love to see him display empathy, because it’s not something that 2 year olds have a ton of, and I think it’s a really important quality in human beings.

Or when my mother-in-law said of my niece, when she was all of six months old, “she is such a girly girl. she just loves her dresses.” Yeah, well, last time I checked, six month olds don’t express much preference for their clothes one way or the other. And as she grows, of course she likely will respond positively to everyone gushing over what a princess she is. Again, kids want to please.

I also notice that parents seem to be much more cautious of a girl child, more likely to praise a girl for being pretty and more likely to praise a boy for being brave or strong.

Comment #41: chingona  on  07/08  at  05:27 PM

But it’s worked itself out now and the children have taken their proper roles in life. The girl is a shy adolescent, constantly ducking her head and apologizing like a good girl should. I guess she’d just had some kind of freakish testosterone/estrogen imbalance in her earlier years that made her prone to wild displays of physical daring and agility.

This is so freaking sad, and it reminds me of the basketball playing girl who got kicked out of that league recently for being too good. I had a heated rant with the boyfriend that this was why girls would “never” be in the NBA - not because they aren’t skilled enough, but because they are beaten down until they stop trying.

Comment #42: Faye  on  07/08  at  06:15 PM

Chingona, I was really interested in the documentary you mentioned, so I did some searching and found this:

http://www.pbs.org/parents/raisingboys/emotion.html

Here’s the blurb about the study you mentioned, on the right sidebar:

Katherine Weinberger, Ph.D., a researcher featured in the PBS documentary Raising Cain, suggests that boys are more vulnerable and less resilient than girls in the first few months of life.

“Weinberg found that a higher proportion of girls could calm themselves when their mother’s face displayed a ‘stony expression’ (as opposed to a warm one) — but that the boys could not. More boys would get easily distressed, they cried more frequently, and were unable to calm themselves. While we somehow expect boys to be ‘tough,’ this evidence shows them to actually be extremely vulnerable. This proves what we’ve known for years — that boys feel a full range of emotions — even those considered ‘not masculine’ like fear, shame, humiliation, and uncertainty. If everyone understood (as research now shows) that boys possess some emotional vulnerabilities that girls do not, would they raise them differently?”

I’d be interested in seeing a study on how infants are treated based on sex, because, as commenters have mentioned already, people start assigning gendered characteristics to babies at an age before they can even have these characteristics, and I’m gonna go ahead and hypothesize that infants are capable of adapting their responses to adults and their surroundings at a very early age. Basically what I’m getting at is that this study makes it obvious that infant boys aren’t unemotional and they need emotional attachment with others, but I wouldn’t necessarily attribute the difference in emotional response to their being naturally more emotional as infants.

Aside from that, the book, Raising Cain, that the documentary is based on seems to be tainted by the usual woo about masculinity and the innate energy of masculine-ness, for example: “Is communicating with boys sometimes difficult? Yes, it often is.” or “Recognize and accept the high activity level of boys and give them safe boy places to express it.” It seems to me that all children are full of energy and hard to communicate with (forgive me the generalisations, I’m rarely actually around kids) but the energy is fostered in boys and communication and being emotive is fostered in girls. They’ve gotten part way there with the emphasis on boys being socialized out of being emotional, but they didn’t quite break through that gender essentialism completely.

Comment #43: MaeBell  on  07/08  at  06:58 PM

I’ve heard so many people insist that they thought gender differences were purely social until they had kids and they see that the girl is so girly or the boy is so boy-y, and I’m really confused as to how people reach these conclusions

I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve had a variant of this conversation:

“Boys and girls are born different - just ask any parent with both!”

“I have a boy and two girls and I think you’re full of shit.”

*crickets chirp*

It is un. freaking. believeable how much pressure people exert on children from birth to fit gender roles. And I’m not talking about mouth-breathing Freepers, but “nice” people who think of themselves as “progressive”. You haven’t seen a polite, liberal upper-middle-class daddy shit himself until you see his toddler son ask for a sparkly tutu.

Comment #44: mythago  on  07/08  at  07:06 PM

Mythago, I’ve also had a lot of doubts about Simon Baron-Cohen’s Extreme Male Brain theory of autism—- it seems one of the implications of such a theory is that all autistic women should be transmen. Which we’re not.

Also, this:

If one takes the population of autism as a whole (75% of whom not only have autism but also have mental handicap), the sex ratio is 4:1 (m:f) (Rutter, 1978). If one takes just the ‘pure’ cases of autism (who are also sometimes referred to as having Asperger syndrome), whose IQs are in the normal range, the sex ratio is even more dramatic: 9:1 (m:f) (Wing, 1981)

(emphases mine)

The problem here is that Baron-Cohen is identifying autism with the extreme end of his “male-type” brain, all math and spatial reasoning, severely limited in verbal abilities, and then he goes and points to Asperger syndrome as the perfect example, which is defined in the DSM as involving no delays in language acquisition. It seems like Asperger syndrome only fits part of the picture he wants to paint here: yes, we are strong “systematizers,” whatever that means, and yes, we do poorly at reading facial expressions and body language, but we also have no verbal impairments, which, given that the type-E, “female” brain is all about empathy and verbal fluency, an extreme “male” brain should be bad at language. Yet classical autism (which does involve language difficulties, and should therefore be more “extreme-male” than AS) has relatively more women with it than AS does (4:1 vs. 9:1 m:f).

‘Splain that, Prof. Baron-Cohen!

Comment #45: Lindsay  on  07/08  at  07:38 PM

Saying that there are Genetic - Gender based Differences - not simply from Socialization - need Not lead to (obvious) “better-worse” dichotomies, nor that there won’t be overlap in “male” areas among plenty of girl children, etc.

Many boys - my son included - were slower in learning to use a Toilet - than many girls are.  To turn that around and say that My Son is Messy Because of this would be a Huge Stretch and Ridiculous. 

From Age 9 months until he was 2 - B lived amongst Oodles of kids, many of whom were the children of graduate students from other countries.    It was obvious to see some of the effects of socialization as older girl children cared for younger siblings, but older boy children were commonly off playing.  B’s love of pink and purple - obviously dissipated as he learned gender roles in his pre-school environments.  Some of what I saw though was probably affected by individual genetic differences.

I think that perceptually - and in his very young play period - there certainly was More - physical emphasis amongst my Son and a Majority of the Boys vs. the Girls.  Does this mean that All of it was/is genetic?  Of Course not!  There were plenty of “tomboys” - amongst the little girls - of course.

I would not want to turn similar things around and say that boys have numerous negative things in their early school years - such as Various attention deficit disorders and similar - solely because of their socialization.

We hurt our children when we use gender to limit them.  We can help them being aware of gender both in how socialization messes things up in many ways as well as recognizing where gender may be a factor due to genetic differences.

Comment #46: Geo  on  07/08  at  07:42 PM

MaeBell, it definitely had some woo, but I thought the study was interesting in the context that you have people trying to use these studies to reinforce the conventional wisdom, then you have these other studies rather vigorously contradicting the conventional wisdom.

Re: mythago, it seems people are a lot more open to girls doing boy things than to boys doing girl things. There have been any number of threads here about the tendency, even among feminists, to denigrate traditionally feminine interests and pursuits, and I think this is another example of the “male” being the default. My father very much encouraged me to climb trees and generally roughhouse and I never wore girly dresses as a kid, but he got that look - that shit himself look - when I told him my son had been asking for a pink dress. And I’ll admit that even I felt conflicted about that - even though I felt like I shouldn’t care, it was hard for me not to care. I let him wear a pink t-shirt of mine as a dress around the house, but I would change him before we left the house. And then it passed. When I tried to think through why I cared, I realized I felt like he would get made fun of later in life if he didn’t learn proper gender roles early, and I reminded myself that my job as his parent is not to prevent him from getting made fun of, that I was made fun of plenty and turned out fine, and it’s more important that he learn to be comfortable with himself, whoever he is, than to go through life avoiding all mockery from assholes. But this isn’t an easy thing to keep front and center every day.

Comment #47: chingona  on  07/08  at  07:55 PM

At the same time I don’t want to minimize the biological aspects of our differences either.  Thanks!

Because if you, did the results would be…. ? Some horrible disturbance in The Force?

Comment #48: Nancy  on  07/09  at  12:11 AM

chinoga, The way we treat little girls and boys, from their first breaths, are different in so many ways that are too subtle for us to even be conscious of

An educational experience when it comes to how many cues you give away when you think you are prefectly neutral is working with animals. No, your dog cannot count. But it can watch you well enough to start barking when you look at it expectently and to stop when you lower your eyelids involuntarily because the correct number has been reached.

The cues we give to babies are usually far less subtle.

Comment #49: inge  on  07/09  at  12:24 PM

Jericho: And in fact, one of the worst things about the books discussed in Schaffer’s essays is that they give ammunition to (white, male) self-proclaimed “feminists” who want to “celebrate women” by “acknowledging their strengths,”

Gods, I hate that so much on a personal level. I suck at what these guys consider “women’s strengths”. So by having to play to what they think to be my strengths, I become incompetent. If I ever need a refresh on why gender essentialism should just FOAD, this “acknowledging women’s strength” crap does it.

Comment #50: inge  on  07/09  at  12:52 PM
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