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Next entry: Bias! The Home Game Previous entry: It’s The Biggest Day In The World

Megawatt assholes not finding fembots for sale; wingnut welfare on the case!

Choads

Apparently, Kay Hymowitz wrote an article mourning that young men spend a lot of time playing video games instead of making babies.  I have my doubts—-Hymowitz is a standard issue wingnut welfare writer, and therefore blaming men for anything is against her contract, unless said men can be proven not to be white—-but nonetheless she’s come around to make it very clear to her benefactors that if there’s something wrong with young men who don’t get married and make babies right out of college (something that’s debatable in itself), then all of the blame can be placed on the shoulders of women.  100%, complete, not a speck of blame goes to men for male behavior.  I think we can all breathe a sigh of relief.

Their argument, in effect, was that the SYM is putting off traditional markers of adulthood—one wife, two kids, three bathrooms—not because he’s immature but because he’s angry. He’s angry because he thinks that young women are dishonest, self-involved, slutty, manipulative, shallow, controlling, and gold-digging. He’s angry because he thinks that the culture disses all things male. He’s angry because he thinks that marriage these days is a raw deal for men.

Ah yes, the marriage “boycott”.  Your average feminist is well-acquainted with the boycott.  We get warned about it all the time by certain men: You women shape up and accept your second class status, or we boycotters will continue not to marry!  It’s interesting, because it’s as if a bunch of people who don’t shop at Bloomingdale’s because they can’t afford it decided to redefine their non-shopping behavior as a “boycott”.  Do they really think that’s going to fool anyone?  I disbelieve there’s any such boycott going on, but if there is, good!  Men who think women should be held to a separate, unfair standard should remove themselves from the dating market until that day that they grow up and realize the world doesn’t revolve around them and their desires.  The problem isn’t that there’s a “boycott”.  The problem is that there isn’t one.  The people who are showing up at Bloomingdale’s to gawk are getting in the way of paying customers, to extend this metaphor way past the comfort zone. 


What’s interesting about the demands of the Nice Guys® that Kay pities is that they’re self-contradicting.

Here’s Jeff from Middleburg, Florida: “I am not going to hitch my wagon to a woman . . . who is more into her abs, thighs, triceps, and plastic surgery. A woman who seems to have forgotten that she did graduate high school and that it’s time to act accordingly.”

Poor Jeff!  Women owe it to him to have a BMI of no more than 18.5, but if they show any visible effort to get this, they are disqualified.  Going to the gym to get your body perfect for a demanding man gets in the way of other ways you could be spending your time to make a demanding man happy.  You could be cooking food he likes, instead of that rabbit food you eat, for instance.  Women, you suck.  You need to be thin and taut, but eat like a horse and be able to spend all your time lounging our playing video games instead of working out.

How do I know that Jeff wouldn’t be happy with a chubbier lady who did eat more and work out less?  Well, if he was willing to date such women, he wouldn’t be generalizing this way, now would he?

Alex: “Maybe we turn to video games not because we are trying to run away from the responsibilities of a ‘grown-up life’ but because they are a better companion than some disease-ridden bar tramp who is only after money and a free ride.”

Indeed, one wonders why a man who is prone to using terms like “disease-ridden bar tramp” finds that his only opportunities for physical affection come from women who want the money up front before they touch him.  With charms like his, he should have women on him like he’s James Bond.

This is from Dean in California: “Men are finally waking up to the ever-present fact that traditional marriage, or a committed relationship, with its accompanying socially imposed requirements of being wallets with legs for women, is an empty and meaningless drudgery.”

Hear hear!  If your wife is nothing to you but a source of paid labor in the form of sexual service and housework, then why waste your time on amateurs?  I can agree with Dean—-men who are interested in service women should stay away from the messy emotions of those who want things like love and passion in their lives, and stick with women they don’t weigh down with their bullshit.  When I have housekeepers clean my house, I don’t have to marry them, either.  I just pay them and everyone’s happy.  Of course, I pay a fair wage, so I’m probably doing more than Dean thinks he should.

So what’s to blame for all this male anger?  The obvious conclusion to people not on the wingnut welfare tap is that a handful of men who wrote Kay are megawatt assholes with a major sense of entitlement.  You know, it happens. There are people of every race and gender who are incapable of relating to others as human beings, and so are easily angered when other human beings make choices for themselves instead of the care and comfort of the megawatt asshole.  But since this is a wingnut welfare piece, the source of the problem is not, “Some people are just big assholes,” but women, or specifically women’s equality.  See, things were better for men in the days when women were all allowed to only have a very standardized set of desires: Find a man (any man) who will have you, marry him, and have babies.  And only one gender was allowed to be capricious, have mixed feelings, move through phases of their lives, or be manipulative for sadistic reasons.

The reason for all this anger, I submit, is that the dating and mating scene is in chaos. SYMs of the postfeminist era are moving around in a Babel of miscues, cross-purposes, and half-conscious, contradictory female expectations that are alternately proudly egalitarian and coyly traditional…..

The woman may be hoping for a hookup, but she may also be looking for a husband, a co-parent, a sperm donor, a relationship, a threesome, or a temporary place to live. She may want one thing in November and another by Christmas. “I’ve gone through phases in my life where I bounce between serial monogamy, Very Serious Relationships and extremely casual sex,” writes Megan Carpentier on Jezebel, a popular website for young women…..

In fact, young men face a bewildering multiplicity of female expectations and desire. Some women are comfortable asking, “What’s your name again?” when they look across the pillow in the morning. But plenty of others are looking for Mr. Darcy.

Oh my god, that’s terrible.  Different women want different things.  Women may want one thing now and something else entirely later.  Women have different personalities and change as they age.  Some women are players and some women are husband-hunting.  Some women are assholes, and others are sweethearts.  Some toy with your emotions to boost their own ego.  You can’t just input “flowers + smiles + ring” and get what you want out of women. You have to think about their desires.  You have to wonder what they want.  You have to talk to them and try to figure out what they expect.  Sometimes they don’t know, and put you off.  You may even be forced to discuss your dates over coffee with a friend.  They may stress you out.  You wonder when they’re going to call.  If they really like you like they say, or if they’re leading you on.

Dating women sounds a lot like a lighter, simpler version of dating men, actually.  No wonder sexist assholes are so humiliated by it that they react by flipping out and trying to punish women, by calling for a boycott until all women want the same thing and acting the same way, or in lieu of that, trying to control our behavior by, say, getting abortion banned.

Kay Hymowitz and her self-pitying man squad can go fuck themselves off a cliff.  The premise of her article—-that women’s basic human right to self-determination should be rethought because it means men have to put more effort into dating that puts them closer, though still far short, of what women have to put into dating—-is unbelievably demeaning.  People who rail against feminists because we believe that women are—-gasp!—-people, and should be treated as such never fail to amaze me. 

To be generous to men who claim confusion, though, I will say that our media does no good by them.  If you flip on your TV or go to the movie theater, most images you see of women will posit that the world is stuffed full of beautiful women (who never have to work at it) that are lonely and desperate to marry just about anyone to avoid the horrible fate of spinsterdom.  That the world is a fairy tale for straight men, where women are so desperate and so single-mindedly focused on the ring that you can pretty much do anything you want to women without receiving any blowback, because they’re so afraid you’re going to take that ring away.  Even my beloved “30 Rock” mines humor out of the baffling idea that professional women in their 30s are desperate for male attention, and it makes them, if not give up their career aspirations, at least feel very conflicted.  If you’re a dude and you go out there under the impression that women have an air of desperation, and that things like making your own money or being independent are just brave fronts women put on that fly off the second a guy—-any guy—-presses his hand, then you’re going to find the real world to be a massive disappointment. It’s not just that women spend time at the gym and still have cellulite.  It’s that the career and the independence might not be a front for a lot of women after all.  And that women aren’t so desperate for marriage that the name and identity of the groom don’t matter much.  You have to actually try.  You find that women have desires that are complex like actual human desires, and that you have to behave, well, a little more like a woman if you want a healthy relationship. You have to care what the other person wants.  You may even have to ask.

Smart men realize a) that this isn’t such a big deal since it’s women’s lot in life and b) women generally still have it worse and end up putting more time and effort into dating and mating than men, even though things are more equal.  And they don’t get bitter, but do what they have to.  Many even decide that dating real women who have ambitions and idiosyncrasies is more enjoyable than dating imaginary fembots who perform up to expectations would be.  Real women are human, which means that if you accept this, they often end up being more than sex-and-service dispensers, but can be your lovers and your friends.  That spending time with a girlfriend can be more than a chore endured for sex, but like spending time with your human (aka, male) friends—-fun and interesting.  I know, crazy.

But Hymowitz isn’t doing her male readers any favors by playing up their thwarted sense of entitlement.  Instead of burrowing into a bitter, sexist pseudo-boycott, these men would be better off accepting women as equals, and realizing that means that they have to put up with some of the stuff women have to put up with from men (mixed signals, confused expectations, relationships that peter out because of different goals), but in the process, they’re regained some of their own humanity by believing in the humanity of women.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:27 PM • (115) Comments

If only this were at least partially true you know what the beautiful side benefit would be?

Less wingnut babies!

Now that’s sexism I can believe in.

Be unhappy, bitter and unmarried oh young wingnut men, you only have your country to save!

Comment #1: ice weasel  on  11/22  at  05:42 PM

Somehow I don’t see the women of the world mourning the loss of these nitwits from the dating pool.

Comment #2: damnedyankee  on  11/22  at  05:58 PM

I don’t read your blog regularly, but I stop in every once in a while.  You never fail to impress.

-D

Comment #3: Dante  on  11/22  at  06:04 PM

Men who think women should be held to a separate, unfair standard should remove themselves from the dating market/gene pool until that day that they grow up and realize the world doesn’t revolve around them and their desires.

Sort of like this slight edit to Amanda’s wonderful writing, ermine?

Comment #4: phylosopher  on  11/22  at  06:09 PM

When I read things like this, no part of me goes:  “geez, I sure better shape up so I can catch a guy” and believe me, I’m insecure enough to feel pangs of self-doubt when I hear sexists complain about women.  Because none of those quotations from young men mesh with my reality AT ALL.  Where the hell are these guys coming from?  All women, everywhere are diseased bar tramps who only want their money?  What.  The.  Fuck.  They must live in Pretend Land, so I’m pretty unconcerned about what they think.

Comment #5: Denise  on  11/22  at  06:10 PM

“the SYM is putting off traditional markers of adulthood—one wife, two kids, three bathrooms”

That is a very different ratio of kids to bathrooms than I would have given.  If you have to have more bathrooms than kids to be an adult then I don’t know very many adults.

Comment #6: GumbyAnne  on  11/22  at  06:15 PM

“I am not going to hitch my wagon to a woman . . . who is more into her abs, thighs, triceps, and plastic surgery. A woman who seems to have forgotten that she did graduate high school and that it’s time to act accordingly.”

Shhhh, do you hear that???

That’s the sound of millions of women across the country breathing a sigh of relief.

Seriously, do these guys expect any woman to want to “hitch their wagon” to them?  Methinks these guys are more angry over the fact that they can’t find a single woman willing to put up with them.

Comment #7: Bruce  on  11/22  at  06:19 PM

What Denise said. Actually, I was going to say pretty much the same thing.

Who are these people? And I’m serious about that. The fellow men I talk to and interact with, for as long as I can remember just don’t don’t talk like that. They don’t really think like that. They may be sexist and shallow from time to time, but I don’t hear talk like that.

They may have traits that they don’t want in a partner that is some of what is mentioned, (of course, there’s nothing wrong with that) but they don’t assume that goes across the board, or even in most cases those traits are universal among women. They don’t look down on other people who are married (although from time to time, in specific circumstances…well..you know..), and in fact most seem to want it eventually WHEN THEY FIND THE RIGHT PERSON.

For better or for worse, men are holding back into rushing into it just as women are.

Comment #8: Karmakin  on  11/22  at  06:28 PM

Seriously, do these guys expect any woman to want to “hitch their wagon” to them?  Methinks these guys are more angry over the fact that they can’t find a single woman willing to put up with them.

I think you’re right, Bruce.

These are the type of guys who get mail order brides out of anger at our culture for not producing enough desperate women for them to lord over.

Comment #9: Cat Ion  on  11/22  at  06:28 PM

“The reason for all this anger, I submit, is that the dating and mating scene is in chaos.”

Well, of course the dating and mating scene is in chaos, silly Kay!  That’s because the dating and mating scene is full of women.  Women are chaotic.  Light and Order are both guy things.  Here’s the proof of it:

“The woman may be hoping for a hookup, but she may also be looking for a husband, a co-parent, a sperm donor, a relationship, a threesome, or a temporary place to live. She may want one thing in November and another by Christmas.”

See, when a guy wants one thing on Thanksgiving and another thing by Christmas, that’s because he’s human, but when a chick wants one thing on Thanksgiving and another thing by Christmas, that’s because she’s Cthulhu.  QED.

(This is such a dead-on post that I really shouldn’t have tried to add to it, but I couldn’t resist.)

Comment #10: bekabot  on  11/22  at  06:31 PM

Is this why Atlas shrugged?  ‘Cause a bunch of idiots decided to remove themselves from the human race and nobody cared?...

Comment #11: MikeEss  on  11/22  at  06:39 PM

“Maybe we turn to video games not because we are trying to run away from the responsibilities of a ‘grown-up life’ but because they are a better companion than some disease-ridden bar tramp who is only after money and a free ride.”

There are also dudes who fit this stereotype to a T.  At a friend’s frosh dorm at a certain Boston area campus during a visit, encountered a bunch who were hoping to be “set for life” by dating and marrying “loaded” women from BU, Wellesley, Tufts, and Harvard. 

They didn’t appreciate it when I rolled my eyes and laughed at what I felt were immature and parasitic methods of being “set for life”....especially when all they were seemingly good at was getting obnoxiously drunk, yelling sports chants at the top of their lungs, vandalizing the dorm, and asking/demanding money from their parents whenever they run out….which according to my friend was every 3-5 weeks.  rolleyes

Comment #12: exholt  on  11/22  at  06:42 PM

I am always baffled by the whole “women are just after my money!” thing.  Maybe it is a class difference or something because almost everybody I know makes between 15k-40k a year and I don’t know a single woman (NOT ONE!) who expects men to spend all sorts of money on her or thinks that she shouldn’t have to work.  The financial support that most women want is somebody who is likely to be gainfully employed most of the time and can be relied upon to split expenses.  Who knows, maybe these greedy women are everywhere but I only happen upon radical independent feminists in my daily life, or something.

Either these greedy, gold-digging women live in a different world than I do or they are part of a MRA/NiceGuy fantasy world.  I suspect the latter.

Comment #13: GumbyAnne  on  11/22  at  06:42 PM

I agree, there’s really nothing to add to this excellent post. But there must be a name for this phenomenon other than “sym” which makes me think they are computer generated sims.  How about “least common denominator guys?” or “least common denominator mating?”  There is something astonishingly weird at hearing how difficult it is for guys to find exactly the right girl. That’s to be expected unless you are expecting something generic that exists everywhere. But if you wanted to find exactly the right woman, for whom you were exactly the right guy—you wouldn’t expect to stumble across her on a bar stool or in a gym. And you wouldn’t really be surprised that there weren’t hundreds just like her so that you could choose, almost at random, from a pool of waiting beauties.  Basically, that’s the beef, isn’t it? That women aren’t so generic, so desperate, so financially broke, so determined to give it all up for you that these guys have infinite choice. Instead they actually have to work—to find a woman who wants them, is ready, and available. And they can’t for the life of them figure out what the metric is. It used to be money, they think, but they don’t have nearly enough to buy a lifetime of love. Or maybe its power? but they sure don’t have that. And this other thing? sexual attractiveness, courtesy, kindness, and intellect? what the fuck is with all that lame shit anyway? Why can’t I just put my quarter in and get a woman out?

I got mr. aimai, of blessed existence, out of the personals in a free newspaper.  I got 88 responses to my ad and had a wonderful time dating twelve of the guys. But one guy, who I never dated, kept calling back the telephone line (for which he had to pay 4.95 a minute) and leaving me messages which more or less added up to “hey, I called once already! I paid for this woman! where is she!”

Its work finding your bashert (hebrew for destined soulmate) and don’t let anybody tell you any different. If a guy’s too fucking lazy to put himself out to please you he deserves to be lonely but more to the point he probably will be lonely for a good long time.

aimai

Comment #14: aimai  on  11/22  at  06:47 PM

Can I just take a moment to express my annoyance that, once again, parenthood is held up as the signpost of adulthood?  It’s a hard job and I don’t want it!  Jeez, these people can’t deal with the idea that somebody - anybody - isn’t living according to their script, can they?

Comment #15: Seraph  on  11/22  at  06:58 PM

This exact article has been published by dozens of authors over the past decade - why do they all think that men have just recently invented shallowness?

Comment #16: Sara Anderson  on  11/22  at  07:16 PM

This is from Dean in California: “Men are finally waking up to the ever-present fact that traditional marriage, or a committed relationship, with its accompanying socially imposed requirements of being wallets with legs for women, is an empty and meaningless drudgery.”

My two thoughts with this:

1) When women are just baby factories and dispensers of sex, that’s fine, but when men are objectified, Katy bar the door.

2) Since society is imposing the requirement, the clear answer is to get pissed at the women.  *eyeroll-induced headache*

Comment #17: XtinaS  on  11/22  at  07:22 PM

Either these greedy, gold-digging women live in a different world than I do or they are part of a MRA/NiceGuy fantasy world.

Though these stereotypical behaviors do not apply to the majority of women out there, they do exist. 

One night after working late in downtown NYC, my co-workers and I were having some drinks in a bar and a couple of middle-aged women walked up to a co-worker and chatted him up before demanding he pay for the dinner and drinks they ordered….despite the fact he never knew them beforehand….much less asked them out.  He rightfully refused to comply with their demands despite their entitled insistence as the rest of us were stunned at their behavior.

Comment #18: exholt  on  11/22  at  07:22 PM

What’s interesting is that someone always says, “But I have met women who are shallow/gold-diggers/etc.!”  As if women’s right to equality can be halted until we’re all angels.  If equality comes at that price, it’s not equality, because men’s station exists regardless of behavior.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/22  at  07:27 PM

Notice that Kay Hymowitz leaves out men that don’t want to marry for reasons that have nothing to do with women or the dating scene and aren’t angry/bitter over it, as if they don’t exist.

Comment #20: Ben D.  on  11/22  at  07:42 PM

What Amanda just wrote above me is exactly it. Expecting all women to be perfect ignores the fact that women are HUMAN… and have issues and foibles just like all humans.

Comment #21: Tha14thOpossum  on  11/22  at  07:42 PM

I think all those wingnut baby boycotters are doing the world a couple of huge favors.  First and formost they are not abusing women by imposing themselves on them.  Secondly by not producing any more baby wingnuts.  Sounds like a winning proposition to me.  I say we encourage them, maybe even make incentive payments to see who can remain celibate longest.

Comment #22: DrDick  on  11/22  at  07:57 PM

I am always baffled by the whole “women are just after my money!” thing.  Maybe it is a class difference or something because almost everybody I know makes between 15k-40k a year and I don’t know a single woman (NOT ONE!) who expects men to spend all sorts of money on her or thinks that she shouldn’t have to work.

I do know women who want to date men who make a lot of money, but it’s because they make a lot of money, and they’ve already experienced resentment from men who make way less that they do and think the women should be apologetic about it.

Comment #23: Av0gadro  on  11/22  at  08:02 PM

As if women’s right to equality can be halted until we’re all angels.  If equality comes at that price, it’s not equality, because men’s station exists regardless of behavior.

Amanda,

I posted that incident as a response to GumbyAnne who said she believed she believed it was more of a MRA/NiceGuy fantasy world.  I believe it is a both/and situation.

Though the fact they wrongly extrapolate the behavior of some individuals to assume this is indicative of all women, this stereotype is not derived only from the imaginations socially maladjusted dudes if what I witnessed in that incident and heard from dating/other experiences from co-workers and classmates in the NYC area are any indication. 

It could also very well be regional as I never witnessed or heard complaints about such behavior until I moved back to NYC.

Comment #24: exholt  on  11/22  at  08:08 PM

Damn, Amanda, you’re on fire today!  Brava!

I imagine this was typed in a white-hot frenzy, so the copy editor in me will forgive:

You need to be thin and taut, but eat like a horse and be able to spend all your time lounging our playing video games instead of working out.

Just thought the English major in you would want to know that.—a quibble

Everything else, spot on and hilarious. I do think you underestimate the laziness issue, but there’s material enough for another post.

Comment #25: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  11/22  at  08:13 PM

<blockquote>and they’ve already experienced resentment from men who make way less that they do and think the women should be apologetic about it.<blockquote>

Should I ever be lucky enough to be the gigolo for a wealthy woman, I will be properly grateful for each and every second.

Comment #26: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  11/22  at  08:15 PM

Should I ever be lucky enough to be the gigolo for a wealthy woman, I will be properly grateful for each and every second.

An older cousin’s wife is the main breadwinner of the household while he takes care of the kids/household.  Works well for them despite the crap they receive from their acquaintances and my aunts/uncles.

Comment #27: exholt  on  11/22  at  08:24 PM

I wonder which came first: the woman only out for a moneybags mate or the stereotype of said gold-digger?

I, for one, am in full support of this boycott. Stand up for your entitlement issues, boys!  The feminists are right behind you, encouraging your celibacy.  And no, mail order brides are not options—it’s the principle after all.

Comment #28: history_mom  on  11/22  at  08:31 PM

The cherry on the shit pie:

“What happened to all the nice guys?” His answer: “You did. You ignored the nice guy. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy.” Women, he says, are actually not attracted to men who hold doors for them, give them hinted-for Christmas gifts, or listen to their sorrows. Such a man, our Recovering Nice Guy continues, probably “came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he’d have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an asshole than he ever wanted to be.”

It’s not a real story until you quote some douche from Craigslist Rants & Raves.

Comment #29: mir  on  11/22  at  08:43 PM

Is there a Darwin Award category for these “Nice” Guys?

Comment #30: RepubAnon  on  11/22  at  08:47 PM

I know, exholt.  I wasn’t trying to disagree.  Just saying.  Didn’t want a sexist to latch onto your comment as “proof” that women haven’t “earned” what men get as a birthright.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/22  at  08:56 PM

Eric, don’t worry, when I publish in real magazines, I have a paid editor to do the job.  Phew!

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/22  at  08:58 PM

Such a man, our Recovering Nice Guy continues, probably “came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he’d have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look

Doesn’t sound like he’s recovered, actually.

I am a Recovered Nice Guy, and while it was true that I once felt resentful that attractive women I knew were “using” me for tech support and friendship without, I thought, “playing by the rules” and dating me in return, I got over it. I mean I was in deep.

I got over it when I learned to man the fuck up and ask them out, actually put what I wanted out there, instead of thinking that I could just nice a woman into a relationship with me.

It was hard, but at the same time, it wasn’t hard. (And I had some help.) It doesn’t have anything to do with what women are doing. It has everything to do with a type of guy who’s still applying Magical Thinking to relationships, and thinks that if he just pulls his ear, spins around three times, and fixes her computer 5.3 times exactly, she’ll be obligated to fall in love with him.

It’s just about growing up. You know, about 5 years too late most of the time.

Comment #33: Chet  on  11/22  at  08:58 PM

I think Amanda is misdiagnosing mere lightweight thinking about romance and relationships into full bore misogyny.  I read the same article and put it in the same category of wishful thinking as the Mars/Venus books and Dear Abby.

Changes in society do make it hard for people to know what to expect, and what is expected of them.  I wouldn’t go around underestimating that.

And remember that for at least two reasons it is actually difficult be considerate of other people:  1) You need a good understanding of somebody who is unique and different.  2) You need to face that your own selfishness may get in the way.

This is a hard area;  We all need it to work better, we all are tempted to analyze things in a self-serving way, there is no escape from the problem, we’d have to be smarter than ourselves to understand ourselves, technology keeps on changing things, we change as we get older and so do our dates,  there are very few ways to test our theories against reality or scientific experiment.

And all of that is compounded by the eagerness with which people gobble up anything on the topic of relationships; tempting editors to fill up pages with whatever tripe they can find.  You can always sell a few more copies by flattering your readers.  Perhaps the publisher of City Journal found that all its readers were male?

Comment #34: Fred2  on  11/22  at  09:11 PM

What’s interesting is that someone always says, “But I have met women who are shallow/gold-diggers/etc.!” As if women’s right to equality can be halted until we’re all angels.

Er, a bunch of young guys supposedly swearing off commitment is not quite a threat to women’s right to equality.  This is what it is - Yet Another Whine About Teh Evilz Of Teh Womenz, not an attempt to take away abortion rights or discriminate in the workplace.

Comment #35: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/22  at  09:15 PM

I’ve always had the idea that if I ask someone out I should pick up the checks.  Dating is different than having a relationship though.  Everyone should contribute what they are able to a relationship, financially and emotionally.

I think most people probably date people who make money in the same range that they do.  A lot of things in our society are based on class, although we try to deny it.  Of course there are some gold diggers and gigolos in every strata of society.  Being wealthy doesn’t make a mooch less likely to mooch.  This isn’t just a heterosexual thing either.  A lot of gay men, especially young gay men, take advantage.  On the other hand, older guys are usually better off financially than young guys and are better able to afford the expenses.

It seems to me, though, that the men Amanda is talking about aren’t really so much concerned with women being gold diggers as in their wish to be dominant partners in the relationship.  Hymowitz could have found men who were the direct opposite of the men commenting, but that wouldn’t have helped her prove her point. 

I haven’t heard that there has been a great drop off in men marrying women anyway, and the birth rate seems plenty high enough.  We’re very overcrowded as it is.  People who complain that enough people aren’t marrying young and having babies don’t have a very clear understanding of what’s going on her on Earth anyway. 

They’re awfully noisy though and hard to ignore.

Comment #36: G Porgy  on  11/22  at  09:15 PM

“D00d!  She’s only after my Xbox!”

“Run, bro, RUN!”

Upon further reflection, it seems that these guys being unable to get a date isn’t a problem, but rather a solution.

Comment #37: damnedyankee  on  11/22  at  09:16 PM

And another tangent not discussed (granted less important than the main thread - but worth mentioning…)

What’s so wrong about guys in their mid 20’s (let alone guys like me in my mid-40’s) liking to play video-games!  Yes there’s a generational misconception (particularly by people in um MY generation - or older) that seem to think that video games are just for kids) and that therefor men who play video games are being childish.

But the reality is, the median age for gamers is something like the late 20’s/early 30’s.  The majority of games are designed and marketed to adults not children.  And - heaven forbid - even WOMEN play games!

Comment #38: fuzzbone  on  11/22  at  09:25 PM

young men who don’t get married and make babies right out of college

I just want to mention that more than half of the young men in this country will never graduate from college.  That out of the way, I see this quote:

young women are dishonest, self-involved, slutty, manipulative, shallow, controlling, and gold-digging

This assertion is entirely true.  Some of them.  Other young women are variously honest, selfless, demure, innocent, wise, acceptive of others and indifferent to wealth.  In brief, young women are all different.  Guys who have got burned by their last girlfriend or two or three, in order both to keep their morale up and to be realistic, should keep that fact in mind, shake it off, and try again.

Comment #39: Wayne Lee America  on  11/22  at  09:37 PM

Oh for cryin out loud, my sock puppet Wayne Lee wouldn’t have said that!  He don’t never think that sensibly; his talk radio addiction has got him in a dizzy tizzy 24-7.  That was my other me.

Comment #40: W. Kiernan  on  11/22  at  09:41 PM

I read the same article and put it in the same category of wishful thinking as the Mars/Venus books and Dear Abby.

Don’t know much about Dear Abby, but the Mars/Venus books are hella sexist (“It’s okay if the woman’s not into sex!  Lie there like a dead log!”), so I’m not seeing your point.

Comment #41: killjoy  on  11/22  at  09:50 PM

What’s so wrong about guys in their mid 20’s (let alone guys like me in my mid-40’s) liking to play video-games!  Yes there’s a generational misconception (particularly by people in um MY generation - or older) that seem to think that video games are just for kids) and that therefor men who play video games are being childish.

The complaints I’ve heard from the older generation and those in my/younger generation who aren’t gamers is not merely that video games are just for kids, but that it is one of the, if not the, most unproductive frivolous waste of time.

I’ll admit to having had this perception from childhood till the time I started working as I’ve witnessed several childhood and college classmates becoming so addicted to videogames that their grades tanked…...some to the point of being academically suspended/expelled.  One of them was my college roommate.

Fortunately, being exposed to highly accomplished co-workers and friends who managed to maintain their hardcore videogaming hobby while deftly balancing their academic/professional lives rapidly after graduation cured me of that notion.

Comment #42: exholt  on  11/22  at  09:56 PM

This is another one of the “look for the common factor in all these bad interactions” stories, but you mostly have to wonder what decade it’s pitched at. How many guys can there really be who think that women’s most-thought-about mission in life is to be attractive and desirable to them? After you take out the ones who would never sully themselves by reading something a probably nonchristian woman wrote, it can’t be that many. Instead, this is more like accidental leakage from the parallel universe where McCain won in a landslide.

Comment #43: paul  on  11/22  at  09:58 PM

The complaints I’ve heard from the older generation and those in my/younger generation who aren’t gamers is not merely that video games are just for kids, but that it is one of the, if not the, most unproductive frivolous waste of time.

We should bowl or play golf instead?

Comment #44: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/22  at  10:01 PM

“Changes in society do make it hard for people to know what to expect, and what is expected of them.  I wouldn’t go around underestimating that.”

Um, if you are the age of the young men this article is talking about—my age,say, which is 24, or even Amanda’s age, she being a bit older—you were born when this change had already happened.  This isn’t some strange new world with different rules you’ve suddenly been thrust into.  It’s been like this your entire adult life.  Your entire life, period, actually. 

Which is why we can sometimes write off casual blatant sexism from really old people, because it was different when they were coming up, and they’re going to die off soon anyway, leaving a better world behind them.  I you were born in the US in the last three-ish decades, this IS your world.

Comment #45: rowmyboat  on  11/22  at  10:11 PM

The misogyny angle has already been more than adequately covered by Amanda’s original post and subsequent comments, but I just want to point out how incredibly insulting Hymowitz’s article is to the men involved. Instead of encouraging men to grow up in a meaningful way (the way that people grow when they have to take into account the emotions and desires of others around them), it infantilizes them and sanctions their withdrawal from meaningful relationships as a form of protest (when of course it’s nothing of the sort).

I mean, I’m part of that cohort (I’m 26), and yet somehow I’ve managed to maintain several stable relationships over the years. It’s seriously not that hard; all you have to do is treat your significant other like a human being. Surprise, people are different! Surprise, some people are assholes! Surprise, some other people are very nice! This is neither particularly confusing nor a momentous revelation. I guess I just don’t get how some people have so much trouble relating to others; maybe the time those guys spend playing video games would be better spent reflecting on how they could be better partners in their relationships or something.

Comment #46: J.V.  on  11/22  at  10:11 PM

I used to have a neighbor who would BLARE the Tom Leykis (sp?) show every afternoon while he lounged around the pool.  His two friends would join him and they’d all suck on beers and laugh and whine and grouse about women - you know - because women are stupid selfish moneygrubbing bitches.

It never dawned on these guys that being unemployed alcoholic whiners MIGHT have something to do with their failed relationships with women…

Comment #47: Beast  on  11/22  at  10:14 PM

I have to admit. I was not NEARLY mature enough to be out there dating right out of college and there damn sure weren’t any women after my money (read: nonexistent money). That’s why I played video games all the time. I had no money and I was interested in partying w/“my boys” only. Several years after this, I decided that I needed to grow up. Worked hard, got a better job, cleaned myself up and met the wonderful woman who I now spend my life with.

These guys apparently think that women are after their money? They don’t have any fucking money. Talk about living in a dream world. I’ve been in their shoes (although I can say with 100% certainty that I never referred to even one woman as a “disease-ridden bar tramp “, much less all women). They need to GROW UP.

Comment #48: Mark  on  11/22  at  10:17 PM

My husband and I have his&hers;WOW accounts, and we raise our son to be a gamer too. Daughter in law wasn’t a gamer, but son solved that by interesting her what he liked.

Comment #49: K. Mac  on  11/22  at  10:31 PM

“Oh my god, that’s terrible.  Different women want different things.  Women may want one thing now and something else entirely later.  Women have different personalities and change as they age.”

snork!

Comment #50: Lisa KS  on  11/22  at  10:44 PM

Excellent points all in the article.

My wife somehow managed to finish her doctorate while she and I got through Brutallus pre-nerf together smile

Comment #51: Andrew  on  11/22  at  11:29 PM

“Women, he says, are actually not attracted to men who hold doors for them, give them hinted-for Christmas gifts, or listen to their sorrows.”

My husband will be more than a little shocked to find out I’m not attracted to him, what with all of the kissing and hugging and sex.  But apparently I can’t possibly be really attracted to him since he does all of the above and I married him anyway.

Comment #52: Mnemosyne  on  11/22  at  11:37 PM

Video games aren’t always a problem for everyone, and can, of course, be played responsibly. But it can easily become an addiction, as mentioned, and lead to resentment when playing video games for hours and hours at a stretch for days becomes more important than the relationship. Like anything else people can become addicted to.

Comment #53: annejumps  on  11/22  at  11:40 PM

This isn’t just a boycott to cover for a lack of skill in dating, but to some degree a shunning of the old concept of adulthood in general.  Some of it is a defensive posture to compensate for the fact that good-paying jobs aren’t there for the taking even with hard work, clean living, and self-discipline.  Some is to compensate for the immense amount of depression over the fact that not only do these people have crappy jobs but also huge amounts of debt.  And some is over the fact that their poor job prospects, large personal debt, and the situational depression that comes along with those two factors makes them poor candidates for good relationships.  There’s a lot of Poor-Me whining coming from those men, but there’s also a lot of causes for misery.

That being said, just because they’re bitter doesn’t mean they will come to really understand why.  And blaming women for their lack of self-esteem, self-control, goals, ambition, financial stability, and a desire to change is anything but productive, smart, appealing, edifying, or a recipe for success.  A moist and warm hole won’t make Sallie Mae’s nasty emails go away, won’t balance the checkbook, and certainly won’t make them any less pathetic.  These losers need to grow up, but even afterwards they’ll still have to figure out how to be comfortable with the fact that they are in fact losers if they’re ever going to be able to confidently approach a woman.  Self-acceptance may be the first step toward changing, but it’s oh so much easier to blame the pretty girls who won’t give them the time of day.

Comment #54: jon  on  11/22  at  11:52 PM

Yeah…

“Smart men realize a) that this isn’t such a big deal since it’s women’s lot in life and b) women generally still have it worse and end up putting more time and effort into dating and mating than men, even though things are more equal.  And they don’t get bitter, but do what they have to.  Many even decide that dating real women who have ambitions and idiosyncrasies is more enjoyable than dating imaginary fembots who perform up to expectations would be.  Real women are human, which means that if you accept this, they often end up being more than sex-and-service dispensers, but can be your lovers and your friends.”

  ...what she said.

Comment #55: Kordo  on  11/23  at  12:47 AM

Oh, I have a friend who sorta fits this stereotype. In a sense, I don’t blame him, as his wife cheated on him after he had a catastrophic illness (to be fair, she did exactly the same thing that Newt did proving not only men do it), so now after he’s recovered, he has rejected American women altogether. I think he’s overreacting, but I’m not really in a position to talk him out of his fantasy female, either.

I had a great friend who was a gorgeous golddigging female (she never held a job that I ever knew of), and we had lots of great times together, but marriage? I certainly wasn’t rich enough to keep her in the style to which she was accustomed (she never seemed to marry, maybe she was devastated when Bill Gates got himself hitched), and I thought that a serious relationship was fraught with peril. A night out with her cost a fortune, but they were worth it as we always had a great time. I never held any of her extravagances against her (as some of my friends did, they scorned her as a parasite and other epithets), because I knew that she found an easy way to live and she enjoyed it. I couldn’t be moralistic about it, because I enjoyed her company and what’s wrong with having a good time with a woman who I could get along with? I was hardly broke at the time.

Comment #56: papa zita  on  11/23  at  01:04 AM

jon,
So you’ve noticed that men prefer to remain immature long past the time they should grow the hell up, too? I never understood that.

Comment #57: papa zita  on  11/23  at  01:14 AM

I just read the article that this post refers to, and somehow it matches what I had written yesterday about certain types I used to know, who preferred to go under the name of “Nietzscheans”.

http://unsanesafe.blogspot.com/2008/11/redeemed-son-of-nietzsche.html

Comment #58: jennifer cascadia  on  11/23  at  01:27 AM

These guys apparently think that women are after their money? They don’t have any fucking money.

Even if they do, then so what?  The problem isn’t “golddigging” for these guys, it is the LACK of gold digging ... in other words, the women are not worshipping them for their earning potential because they themselves are making their own money, buying houses for themselves, etc.

Easier to blame it all on old stereotypes than admit that the deck is no longer stacked such that women need men and their earning power!

Comment #59: Ms Kate  on  11/23  at  01:40 AM

Is it just me, or is the bit about a “traditional marriage” being a drag for a guy entirely based in the banal fantasyland of yesteryear?  Not only is this whine dated, it can be entirely rebutted by “well, then, how about an egalitarian marriage where you are expected to be a human with a heart and do your share of the work”.

Comment #60: Ms Kate  on  11/23  at  02:06 AM

I wonder if part of the nice guy thing comes from the idea that if you work hard you can be successful at anything. In terms of work and school it is probably true that a huge part of ones success comes from how hard you are willing to work at it.
Relationships are completely different generally if you have to work at it something is wrong. I get the impression from some “nice guys” I know that they don’t understand why someone is not interested in them after all they are working so hard. Plus, most of us male and female are told that if we try real hard we will be successful. Generally in a relationship you find someone that is easy to be around and a work ethic probably ruins the relationship more than it helps.
Nice guys for whatever reason can’t understand this and they spend their lives working to get what they think they want rather than enjoying what they might be able to have.

Comment #61: karl  on  11/23  at  02:16 AM

Video games aren’t always a problem for everyone, and can, of course, be played responsibly. But it can easily become an addiction, as mentioned, and lead to resentment when playing video games for hours and hours at a stretch for days becomes more important than the relationship. Like anything else people can become addicted to.

Yep—for someone with the right mindset, you can become addicted to damn near anything.

It can also be, as jon said, a sign of situational depression.  When I was unemployed and playing “The Sims” until 4 am, in retrospect that was probably a warning sign.

Comment #62: Mnemosyne  on  11/23  at  03:17 AM

“That spending time with a girlfriend can be more than a chore endured for sex, but like spending time with your human (aka, male) friends—-fun and interesting.  I know, crazy.”

If it wasn’t for you, Amanda, and all your crazy talk I might still think men should be into feminism just to be fair to “thuh liddle ladies.”  Heh.  It’s gotta be at least a year since the last time I thanked you.  So thanks.

“But Hymowitz isn’t doing her male readers any favors by playing up their thwarted sense of entitlement.”

Weird how anti-feminism puts men down and then while we’re down it keeps us distracted with “teh feminiz, teh feminiz, theyz in ur jobs, makn u walkin walletz!”  Because, yeah, right, *feminism* encourages us to be choads.

figleaf

Comment #63: figleaf  on  11/23  at  04:12 AM

But it can easily become an addiction, as mentioned, and lead to resentment when playing video games for hours and hours at a stretch for days becomes more important than the relationship. Like anything else people can become addicted to.

Video games are not addictive.

They’re just more interesting, a lot of the time, than people’s classes or relationships. If your sig-other is paying more attention to their Xbox than they are to you, don’t get resentful - get more interesting.

Comment #64: Chet  on  11/23  at  05:09 AM

Well, karl, relationships ARE work. You have to give them time and attention to maintain them. If you haven’t noticed that, it may mean you haven’t been doing your share. Phoning your mom or emailing a friend are forms of relationship-maintenance work, and with a romantic partnership, there are a ton of other things, like making schedules that work together; discussing and compromising on budgets, menus,  and pets. Saying something complimentary to the other person. Covering for them at an awkward social moment. The nice part is the work becomes easier to deal with when you’ve been with someone a long time, which is one reason why long-lasting couples often say they are more in love now than they ever were—the discussions that were once difficult are now normal and even enjoyable in a way, because even things like surrendering a mortgage one can’t meet or having a pet put to sleep are less stressful when you know you have the full agreement, support and trust of your partner.

But emotions can’t be made to happen, which I think is where people confuse the work of maintaining a relationship with the idea that working at courting is feasible.

Comment #65: Samantha Vimes  on  11/23  at  06:53 AM

Papa Zita,

Men and women both have among their numbers way too many who refuse to become conscious adults.  For every videogame-addicted manchild, there’s a woman who has already planned her wedding, her home, her children’s names, the kind of dog they’ll have, and all the rest except the steady boyfriend.  Cluelessness isn’t something that comes with the Y chromosome, it’s a regressive trait that can pop up just about anywhere.

Comment #66: jon  on  11/23  at  11:16 AM

Then there are the curious cases like my former husband.  When we first dated, and for the first couple of years of our marriage, he was responsible, hard-working, either employed or in school, and treated me well.  He liked classical music, read good books and magazines, and though he was an SF fan/gamer, I was too, and we were in the same games and attended the same conventions.

It all changed in 1990-1991, after his beloved grandmother died and he was laid off.  Suddenly he only wanted to listen to “lost 45’s” and heavy metal from the 1970’s.  Friends his own age were replaced with teenagers and college students who were in the same live action role playing group.  He left me and married a girl 19 years his junior, who had been his “foster daughter” in the LARP (to the point that she called him “Daddy” in public).  It was as if he was trying to recapture the glories of his teen years, even though he hadn’t particularly enjoyed his teens when they actually occurred.

And to this day he still thinks he’s a Nice Guy since he gives his wife roses, weeps over pets that die, and is good to his mother.

Comment #67: Ellid  on  11/23  at  11:58 AM

I’m with you Samantha Vimes—relationships do take work.  If you think they don’t and aren’t putting any into yours, your partner is probably working overtime trying to take up the slack, and you are acting like an entitled choad.

Comment #68: rowmyboat  on  11/23  at  12:43 PM

Here is similar information and I think in America, its called the “Marriage Strike”

http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSSP1371220080602?feedType=RSS&feedName=lifestyleMolt&sp=true

Men prefer being solo over a bad marriage: study

SYDNEY (Reuters Life!) - Bachelor Carl Weisman got fed up of being classified as a playboy, a loser or a commitment-phobe so he set out to find out exactly why he and a growing number of eligible men were steering clear of marriage.

Weisman, 49, conducted a survey of 1,533 heterosexual men to research a book aiming to give women an insight into why some smart, successful men opted to stay single—and help lifelong bachelors understand why they are still the solo man at parties.

He concluded that most men were not afraid of marriage—but they were afraid of a bad marriage.

“Men are 10 times more scared of marrying the wrong person than of never getting married at all,” Weisman told Reuters in a telephone interview.

“This is the first generation of people who have grown up with bad divorces. People assume there is something wrong if you don’t marry but these are men who have made a different choice and not given in to social pressures.”

The release of his book “So Why Have You Never Been Married? - Ten Insights into Why He Hasn’t Wed,” comes amid a growing trend for more people to stay single, with less social or religious pressures on men—and women—to tie the knot.

Weisman said U.S. figures showed that in 1980 about 6 percent of men aged in their early 40s had never married but this number had now risen to 17 percent.

AFRAID TO MAKE MISTAKES

Weisman said his online survey found there are three groups of bachelors—about 8 percent who never want to marry, 62 percent want to marry but of which half won’t settle for anything less than perfection, and about 30 percent who are on the fence.

Four out of 10 bachelors did not want children compared to three out of 10 wanting to be a father. The rest were undecided.

But while 72 percent of respondents said they were not afraid of marriage, about half of them said the situation that scared them most was marrying the wrong person.

“It’s so important to these men to get it right. My best advice to single women after bachelors is to be patient. If you’re in a hurry to get married you’ll be frustrated,” he said.

Weisman also found that financial issues, both positive and negative, played a large part in men’s fear of commitment.

“Those with little money said they would have nothing to offer a partner, with some suffering self-esteem issues and withdrawing from the dating pool,” said Weisman, an engineer-turned-author with two books now published.

“While those who are financially sound were terrified what a bad divorce could do to them.”

Weisman said his research blew away any idea that single men were unhappy.

“A compelling issue was how many of them had found contentment in a never-married life,” he said. “They had created lives full of careers, friends and ambitions. It was not like they walk around all day worried about not being married.”

For him, researching the book made him also look at himself—and he ended up living with a girlfriend for the first time.

“Now we’re looking at getting married. As I researched the book I found I was looking at men 10 years older than me and it was like looking into the future. If I didn’t change, nothing would,” he said.

Comment #69: Blech  on  11/23  at  01:02 PM

Here are some interesting takes on the Marriage Strike:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Marriage-strike

 

http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/2008/02/18/the-marriage-strike-an-extremist-plot/

Comment #70: Blech  on  11/23  at  01:24 PM

I am reading both of Hymowitz’s articles.  Early in to the first one, one very shallow thought occurs:

Can we please stop using the phrase “reptilian brain” to describe a het male’s normal response to attractive women?  “Reptilian” is a pejorative.  There is nothing blameworthy about het males being attracted to females.  This is fucking normal, and only assholes, moralists and worthy religious figures (an almost wholly overlapping three-part Venn diagram, I agree) think otherwise.

Comment #71: seeker6079  on  11/23  at  01:26 PM

women generally still have it worse and end up putting more time and effort into dating and mating than men

You really think so?  It seems to me like women have a much easier time getting dates than men.  Men are permanently receptive, and all that.

Comment #72: Notorious P.A.T.  on  11/23  at  01:41 PM

jon,
I have dated the woman who had her future planned down to the number of children, which church she was going to be married in, etc., and guess what? I didn’t find that attractive because I knew she was living in a fantasy world where I was to be made into her image of the Ideal Husband. I didn’t matter in the relationship except I was reasonably good looking and intelligent enough to have a college degree and be a good provider. I was generic in their eyes. Fortunately, it’s easy to get out of relationships like that - I just wouldn’t be what they wanted me to be, I’d just highlight my faults, be intransigent and the women would quickly pick up on that and dump me. I wouldn’t live someone else’s vision of my life so I could be miserable. As a child I was very self-directed and didn’t need any real oversight, and suddenly I’m supposed to be told what to do when I never had to be before in my life? Never happen. I like compromise, but it has to be compromise, not endless concession.

There was a pretty funny movie that had an extreme case of that sort of woman, called Man of the Moment, where Margaret Lockwood played a woman who even has it planned that her fiancee Douglas Fairbanks, Jr. had to get rid of his longtime dog pal, because the dog didn’t fit into her plans for their life. She even says she’s going to treat Fairbanks like a little boy who must be told what to do.

Comment #73: papa zita  on  11/23  at  02:10 PM

“Fortunately, it’s easy to get out of relationships like that - I just wouldn’t be what they wanted me to be, I’d just highlight my faults, be intransigent and the women would quickly pick up on that and dump me.”

Surely it’s even easier, more honest and less hassle all round to dump her?

Comment #74: MissPrism  on  11/23  at  02:13 PM

I repeat from another thread: I am very sick and tired of simplistic hacks like this equating fun things with adolescence and immaturity on the one hand, and soul-killing predictability and dullness with adulthood and maturity on the other.  It is NOT NOT NOT such an either/or dichotomy. 

An adult that like games, or harmless self-indulgent behaviour and who seeks to enjoy life is not immature, (s)he is simply an adult that likes fun things. 

I wonder: is this sort of binary oversimplification a cultural throwback to our Christian heritage?  What I mean by that is, “fun = sin, happy = bad, suffer = what should be” the metaculture’s vestigial default setting for such measurements?

Comment #75: seeker6079  on  11/23  at  02:56 PM

Video games are not addictive.

They’re just more interesting, a lot of the time, than people’s classes or relationships. If your sig-other is paying more attention to their Xbox than they are to you, don’t get resentful - get more interesting.
Chet on 11/23 at 03:09 AM

Well, no, see, Chet, the resentment comes from the expectation that one needs to compete with an inanimate object like a video game; that one should be making oneself more interesting than a video game. If I’m supposed to be competing for someone’s attention in that circumstance, well, no thank you, I’d rather end the relationship and they can stay with what’s keeping their interest.

And yes, they can be addictive.

Comment #76: annejumps  on  11/23  at  03:06 PM

You really think so?  It seems to me like women have a much easier time getting dates than men.  Men are permanently receptive, and all that.

P.A.T., my disagreement with that perspective aside, she’s talking about more than just getting dates. She’s talking about the nearly-invisible relationship and appearance maintenance work, too.

Comment #77: annejumps  on  11/23  at  03:12 PM

Some of it is a defensive posture to compensate for the fact that good-paying jobs aren’t there for the taking even with hard work, clean living, and self-discipline.  Some is to compensate for the immense amount of depression over the fact that not only do these people have crappy jobs but also huge amounts of debt.  And some is over the fact that their poor job prospects, large personal debt, and the situational depression that comes along with those two factors makes them poor candidates for good relationships.

Word.

That being said, blaming women is anything but smart

Word.

Comment #78: Notorious P.A.T.  on  11/23  at  03:53 PM

P.A.T., my disagreement with that perspective aside, she’s talking about more than just getting dates. She’s talking about the nearly-invisible relationship and appearance maintenance work, too.

I figured she was talking about something like that.  But still:  where I live it’s a lot easier for a woman to get dates than a man.  It’s not like the average man will *only* date a woman who spends 10 hours a day in the gym, 2 hours a day in the salon, 8 hours a day shopping for clothes, 12 hours a day hanging out with him, etc.

Don’t just say you disagree with me, say why.  Help me out, here.

Comment #79: Notorious P.A.T.  on  11/23  at  03:59 PM

Miss Prism.
Well, yes, but they did start the mess by having unrealistic expectations, so I figured they can clean it up as well. Usually they didn’t say outright what their expectations were until a few months into the relationship (although there were signs sometimes before I knew what was coming - one had a copy of Bride (or something like that, it was many years ago) magazine on the coffee table of her apartment, which at the time I chose to ignore since she shared the apartment). It was much easier to for me to break up with someone who already realized that there was something wrong with our relationship. I don’t care to list someone’s faults and irrationalities for them, some take it as target practice and get rather angry and emotional (and if they ask me why, I have to tell them why I can’t get along with them long term. I try to be nice about it, but sometimes it can’t be done). I pretty much know my own failings and if they’re going to get in the way of a relationship, I may get told off, but I’m never told anything I don’t already know.  It’s always interesting to see how some women deliberately misread me as well, I got the one that I was “too intense” a lot, which I figured was an out for them. Anyone who knew me well would never list intense as a personality trait of mine. My best friend in college was a woman and she laughed at me when I told her I was too intense.

Comment #80: papa zita  on  11/23  at  04:21 PM

It’s not like the average man will *only* date a woman who spends 10 hours a day in the gym, 2 hours a day in the salon, 8 hours a day shopping for clothes, 12 hours a day hanging out with him, etc.

Don’t just say you disagree with me, say why.  Help me out, here.

But it *is* like the average Nice Guy (tm) will.  The average Nice Guy, and the SYM of the article want perfect subservient specimens, and when they can’t get them, well, they’re just going to boycott the whole deal!

Because it’s not like they are dating anyway…

Seriously, that’s what the article is about, and that’s why we are mocking it.

As for dating help?  Where do you live PAT?  Are you somewhere where the ratio between men and women is skewed toward men?  B/c women have an easier time dating in that environment on availability alone, and vice versa if there’s a higher female/male ratio. 

I used to live in Boystown—lots and lots of cute guys who were only interested in the other cute guys.  Not conducive to finding a date around the neighborhood, so I had to venture elsewhere to find dates.

If you have trouble finding dates in general, move out of your general location to where the single women are.  Of course, once you find them, you still have to deal with the fact they are human and run the gamut from shallow to deep, pretty to ugly, skinny to fat, intelligent to stupid, etc. and that their desires can change over time just like men’s desires do.  Figure out what you want, look for someone with similar interests, try to live happily ever after.

There ya go.

(By the way, my husband just pulled off the greatest Christmas coup ever by convincing his mother NOT to buy us an unwanted “Bed in a Bag” but a Nintendo Wii instead!!!  Bonus!!!!  Eleventy-one!)

Comment #81: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/23  at  04:25 PM

Some of it is a defensive posture to compensate for the fact that good-paying jobs aren’t there for the taking even with hard work, clean living, and self-discipline.  Some is to compensate for the immense amount of depression over the fact that not only do these people have crappy jobs but also huge amounts of debt.  And some is over the fact that their poor job prospects, large personal debt, and the situational depression that comes along with those two factors makes them poor candidates for good relationships.

Double word.  When I read the first of Hymowitz’s two articles that was the thing that leapt out at me: the complete and deliberate ignorance of the fact economic factors were and are at play.  The right wing pop media puts a great deal of subconscious and conscious effort into making people look away from economic causes for their misery, preferring to lay blame and keep attention on cultural tropes.

Comment #82: seeker6079  on  11/23  at  05:31 PM

Well, yes, but they did start the mess by having unrealistic expectations, so I figured they can clean it up as well.

Gee, that’s really considerate of you. Instead of being honest with a woman who is putting all this effort into trying to make a relationship with you work and telling her that you are not interested in having a relationship, you make her do gymnastics trying to figure out that you don’t want a relationship and break up with you.  Entitled much?

Karl: Relationships are work. ALL THE TIME. If you are not working at a relationship, then you are taking your partner for granted.  But you do the work because you want to and because you love another person and because when you love a person it does not feel like a burden to do this work.  Now, if the “work” of the relationship entails one partner wishing the other partner were somehow different than they are, then I agree that something is wrong. The work of a relationship does not involve changing anybody but yourself, and only then if you WANT to change (not out of insecurity or being bullied into it).

And that’s at the heart of the “marriage strike” isn’t it. These jerks don’t feel like relationships are supposed to be work for them, i.e. that they are responsible for maintaining their half of the deal by being considerate, thoughtful, caring, and generally recognizing that they have a PARTNER.  They are pissed that they can’t expect women to continue doing all the emotional work and worship them for their almighty earning power (which may or may not exist) and not hassle them about their how they spend their time/money. A woman’s job is to be available at a moment’s notice when they want attention and affection, but to disappear without complaint when they need to relax or whatever. Oh, and to make sure that the man’s life functions seamlessly (by doing the domestic work, arranging holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, and generally organizing life). If women aren’t willing to agree to this deal, then they get called “disease-ridden bar tramps” or gold-diggers.

Comment #83: history_mom  on  11/23  at  06:38 PM

These guys apparently think that women are after their money? They don’t have any fucking money.

I’m sure they’re talking about their future money. I’m betting they also vote Republican so that the gummint will keep their hands off that future stash of cash as well.

You know, the one good thing about the supposed “men were men and women were women” golden age that Hymowitz and these man-children are pining for is that men were men and BOYS were BOYS, and no one in their right mind would think that these guys’ self-justifications for why they weren’t getting any dates bore any relation to the truth of the situation, much less take them seriously, compile them in a story and think it was important to anyone in any way.

I’m sincerely confused: Do these guys not notice that their male friends are all different, and change their minds on things occasionally?

Comment #84: Rick Massimo  on  11/23  at  06:57 PM

Karl: Relationships are work. ALL THE TIME. If you are not working at a relationship, then you are taking your partner for granted.

That’s fair. It’s just as fair to say that this is something people in bad relationships tell themselves so they can feel superior and self-righteous about the fact that they have to work at it all the time. Excuse me, ALL THE TIME.

Which is to say, it’s not remotely fair. Or true. Or close to true. 

And seriously, what kind of miserable relationship has only two modes, work or complacency? I’m not going to say that work can never be necessary or rewarding, but if that’s all you do, or if that’s what you do most of the time, that is not normal or pleasant, and it damn well isn’t necessary or desirable. You work through problems,  you work through crises. But being considerate of and attentive to people you love isn’t work, any more than having conversations or sex with them is.

Comment #85: sophonisba  on  11/23  at  07:57 PM

Sophonisba: I can only conclude that you have not been in a decade-plus relationship.  Because reminding yourself not to take your live-in partner for granted (which being caring and considerate and attentive is) is work.  Where do you get the idea that work=drudgery=bad?  In a healthy relationship, it is work you enjoy doing (you look forward to finding ways to please your partner, it takes relatively little effort because you want to do it); in an unhealthy relationship you either resent doing it or completely neglect your part.

If you don’t think that maintaining a relationship in good times takes work, well then, I doubt you’ve had much experience. Because if you aren’t doing anything to make a relationship work when things are good (like learning to compromise, learning how to communicate in productive and healthy ways instead of negative ways, learning to put another person first but also when to put yourself first, etc.), you have nothing to fall back on when things are bad.

Comment #86: history_mom  on  11/23  at  08:07 PM

On the other hand, if you don’t think good relationships are work, it is probably because your partner is doing it all for you.

Comment #87: history_mom  on  11/23  at  08:10 PM

:-D This was an awesome post!

Comment #88: She-cago  on  11/23  at  10:24 PM

You really think so?  It seems to me like women have a much easier time getting dates than men.  Men are permanently receptive, and all that.

Because we have no taste, preferences, or higher brain functions. mmmm boobies. *snort*

Comment #89: banisteriopsis  on  11/23  at  11:32 PM

“Three bathrooms”?? THREE!? Woah, slow down there Cap’n Hymowitz or the S.S. Elitist!

Comment #90: Vic  on  11/24  at  01:25 AM

Because we have no taste, preferences, or higher brain functions. mmmm boobies.

I’d just like to announce to all and sundry that I have absolutely no class.

Comment #91: atheist  on  11/24  at  01:26 AM

I’m fixated on the three bathrooms.  Someone help me figure this out;  my husband and I both have Master’s degrees and good jobs, but neither of us has ever lived in a house or apartment with more than two bathrooms.  Right now we share one bathroom with our young child!  My question:  am I still middle class?  Because I think at some point class started to be defined entirely by material goods, in which case I’m screwed.

I have no opinion on these young guys and their decision not to get married, other than to say, “Be happy with your decisions and stop blaming other people if you’re not.”

Comment #92: Eileen  on  11/24  at  10:09 AM

The ‘Marriage Strike’ causes consternation and debate, it’s true..
Why not see what my readers have to say about it?

http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/the-marriage-strike-its-because-you-have-a-small-penis/

Comment #93: E F  on  11/24  at  10:17 AM

I don’t join in the first step with Hymowitz’s article, which is the assumption that you have to be dating, getting married and having kids, or playing video games/watching TV bemoaning the fact that you are not dating, marrying, etc. Don’t straight bachelors have anything to enrich their lives, like hobbies or something? It might give you something interesting to talk about, when you meet someone. Why only pursue things everyone else tells you that you should, like marriage? If you don’t enjoy dating, then don’t do it. If you haven’t found someone to marry in your 20s, then don’t get married. What is so wrong with pursuing a Ph.D. or career anyway?

Basically, if you’re unhappy because other people are not behaving the way you want them to, it’s your problem, not their problem.

Comment #94: Luke  on  11/24  at  10:41 AM

Just another example of how irresponsible heteros are screwing up marriage for the rest of us . . .

Comment #95: rea  on  11/24  at  11:24 AM

Why the complaining? If a man does not want to marry, it is his choice.  There are plenty enough uneducated men who don’t know what they are in for who do. You can do the same or differently as you you choose, too. And aren’t “all men just rapists and that’s all they are” ? Why would a woman want to marry a man in that case, let alone complain about him not wanting to? Or are you desperately looking and feeling disappointed?

Comment #96: amfortas  on  11/24  at  11:57 AM

Hey, recently arrived antifeminist trolls:  Should you care to actually read the post, you’ll likely find you agree with it.  But no, a woman has to hold your freakin hand for that too, right?  Does your mom still wipe your ass after you shit, too?

Comment #97: Gavel Down  on  11/24  at  12:10 PM

Second note to antifeminist trolls:
You have come to a blog where most people have deep qualms about the institution of marriage.  If you do too, then welcome to the club.

Comment #98: seeker6079  on  11/24  at  01:02 PM

Why the complaining?

Really not complaining. Quite pleased, in fact. The fewer entitled idiots in the dating pool, the better.

I say this as someone who is in a very happy LTR with a smart, kind, and considerate guy, one who knows that it’s possible to both play computer games *and* be an adult: all you have to do is take seriously the things that need to be taken seriously (like relationships), and be prepared to treat your partner like, y’know, a *partner*. He doesn’t resent, or feel intimidated by, the fact that I have a brain, and want a career and independence alongside what we have together; on the contrary, those are precisely the things he loves about me (as I do in him).

I could never have settled for anything less, and I don’t think anyone else should have to, either. So if there are some blokes out there who say they won’t get married because they’re stuck on some pie-in-the-sky idea of what women ‘should’ be or used to be, then I think we can all breathe a sigh of relief and hope they keep their word..

Comment #99: Nic C  on  11/24  at  01:49 PM

Prefatory remark: Everything I’ve ever seen linked to from City Journal appears to have been pulled from the writer’s ass. What is its reason for being? There were two main themes:

Nice Guys (TM) Resent Women

The men described—“sensitive, kind, thoughtful, intelligent men who were in touch with their feminine sides, who shared their feelings, who enjoyed watching Ally McBeal rather than Beavis and Butt-Head”—appear to be Nice Guys(TM) who hate women because they don’t live up to their fantasy expectations of them: “If I put a rose on her desk chair and hold the door open for her, she’ll drop her panties for me like clockwork!” Humanity wins when these guys select themselves out from the gene pool.

Some Women Have Unreasonable Expectations of the Opposite Sex, As Well

But I’m prepared to believe that there are self-selecting women, too. Miss Pickypickypicky, like “Lisa,” the 26-year-old journalist who rejected her 29-year-old good-looking social worker date because he failed to open the car door for her, and who asked her what she wanted to do instead of having the evening planned out thoroughly, is not flexible enough to be in a relationship with a real human being. But, I’ve never encountered such unreasonable women outside of Wodehouse’s Bertie and Jeeves stories.

Comment #100: Hector B.  on  11/24  at  05:02 PM

“We get warned about it all the time by certain men: You women shape up and accept your second class status, or we boycotters will continue not to marry!”

I’m calling bullshit. This is a total mischaracterization. While it is true that more and more men are abandoning the institution of marriage, it is not tied to any sort of ultimatum that requires women to do anything except live their own independent, happy lives. Any pressure to act like “second class” citizens to ensure a wedding ring in their future comes from women themselves, not men—who don’t want to get married in the first place. Really, men who are avoiding marriage have no reason to complain about independent women, and as far as I can see, they’re not.

Comment #101: iMod  on  11/24  at  09:26 PM

iMod, do you read? the post is about childish guys whining that there are no ‘good’ women to marry so they’ll just sit in their rooms and sulk.

Comment #102: chibi  on  11/24  at  10:56 PM

“...the post is about childish guys whining that there are no ?good? women to marry so they?ll just sit in their rooms and sulk.”

Or for about $50, the US Government will provide the *means* to get to the bevyland; to a female cornicopia: its called a Passport.  Just south of Mexico alone, there are over 50 million marriage-age women throughout Central and South America.  So these guys need not sit in their rooms (or country), whine or sulk.  Problem solved.

Comment #103: Fash  on  11/25  at  12:16 AM

Thank you for illustrating the original point of the blog post, Fash.
A “female cornicopa (sic)”? Really?

Comment #104: less13lee  on  11/25  at  12:21 AM

Speaking for myself, and as an antifeminist..

All I’m seeing here is an assertion that feminists ‘own’ the marriage strike.
So, which is it? A minority (actually a growing majority) of men are to blame for being irresponsible - or you don’t want to marry anyway?

And if this is the case, where are all these rather obvious ‘shaming’ articles coming from?

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/points/stories/DN-hymowitz_27edi.ART0.State.Edition1.378ca5b.html
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article3283690.ece
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YzNlNzlhOWFkMzEyMTI1OGZiZmJkYWFmMzYzY2I2OTQ=

..and how do feminists regard these responses?

http://blogs.theage.com.au/lifestyle/allmenareliars/archives/2008/02/a_reply_to_the.html
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/02/05/single-young-males-a-defense/

I think it would be a great step forward if we started talking about possible causes and solutions - if that is what we want - rather than ‘ownership’.

Comment #105: E F  on  11/25  at  04:41 AM

It’s funny that a lot of the posters here have NEVER run into any woman who shows any golddigging tendencies.

I’m shocked ... SHOCKED ... Rick to find out that gambling is going on here.

Comment #106: VVG  on  11/25  at  05:42 AM

One truism is that women throughout history and everywhere geographically have wanted to “marry up”.

It’s at the point now, though, where they are brainwashed into thinking that all men are beneath them (which is curious, given the fact that men produce far more than women). Who wants to have a spouse commandeer your resources while thinking you are beneath her?

With all Amanda’s talk about being a “second class citizen”, would YOU go for that deal (to the women here)? LOL Women talk about being second class citizens and men ARE second class citizens. Just good enough to work for the woman.

Comment #107: Egbert  on  11/25  at  05:52 AM

a lot of the posters here have NEVER run into any woman who shows any golddigging tendencies.

I looked carefully in the essay for an example of a golddigging woman. The only concrete example of a “highway robber out to relieve men of their earnings” was—that bitch—Mom.

it’s hard to overstate the distrust of young men who witnessed divorce up close and personal as they were growing up. Not only have they become understandably wary of till-death-do-us-part promises; they frequently suspect that women are highway robbers out to relieve men of their earnings, children, and deepest affections.

If these laddish men have a problem with their mothers, I don’t see how it is the fault of today’s young women, who are busy preparing themselves for their careers. Further, this mother-resentment may be what’s turning off the women they meet.

Now, high-maintenance women do exist, but they announce their proclivities in advance as surely as a rattlesnake does. If their ideal mate is an Armani-clad guy rolling S-Class, they and I can keep looking.

Comment #108: Hector B.  on  11/25  at  01:00 PM

Who wants to have a spouse commandeer your resources while thinking you are beneath her?

Do you mean, like a spouse who thinks that your ability to produce a human being from your own body, which costs tremendous effort to that body, is something that you owe to them, and is also something trivial and is not real work, while considering you to be an inferior life form?

Welcome to the last 5,000 years of being a woman.

Comment #109: Alara Rogers  on  11/25  at  03:46 PM

Alara, that’s what my dad said before he got drafted to go to Vietnam.

Oh.My.God.

Like exactly!

He never came back.

But I’ve had 5000 years of being exploited as a woman ... and I’m only 22 years old.

And I know exactly what history was long ago, because my women’s studies teacher told me.

Comment #110: 5000yroldwoman  on  11/25  at  07:38 PM

iMod, do you read? the post is about childish guys whining that there are no ‘good’ women to marry so they’ll just sit in their rooms and sulk.

Well, then maybe every guy I’ve ever known is incredibly well-adjusted and mature, because I’ve never come across this attitude in real life. It sounds to me like a convenient fantasy concocted by women looking for someone to blame for the fact that no man wants to marry them. It’s a whole lot easier to blame videogames and Sportscenter than to take an honest look in the mirror and admit, “He’s just not into me.”

Comment #111: iGod  on  11/25  at  08:03 PM

I think the problem here is that being married to a woman is not as great as women think it is.

But in any case ... Amanda is really an intensely caustic and bitter woman. If she reacts like this when a man doesn’t want to marry her, think of how she would go off when a guy with freshen-up gum on his breath tried to get to know her.

What a fucking bitch.

Comment #112: Problem  on  11/25  at  09:16 PM

My favourite pages: , naked cheerleaders masturbating,

Comment #113: Clara03  on  11/26  at  09:27 PM
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