Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Did anyone notice that “fiber” and “fascism” both start with an “F”? Previous entry: Barbour: just a super duper curious kind of guy

Minimizing historical injustices

History

One of the most fascinating phenomenon aspects of collective psychology to me is collective willful ignorance.  I wrote about this some in terms of Wikileaks and how it disturbs collective unknowing, and I think Ricky Gervais touched on it when talking about atheism as a matter of letting yourself know what you already know. I get why people don’t want to know certain things they do know, and why they suppress that knowledge, but that we can do it—-and that we can it collectively—-is truly fascinating.  And that people who speak the truth everyone is ignoring can disturb the ecosystem of collective denial is also fascinating to me, probably in no small part because the vast majority of hostility I’ve experienced from others has directly stemmed from their being upset with me for saying out loud what we’re supposed to collectively ignore.

One of the most routine kinds of collective denial is historical denial.  It’s the result of cognitive dissonance caused when your belief that your people are generally good people is disturbed by historical evidence that your people in the past did great evils.  The urge is to minimize the evil.  The most extreme of this is denialism, which crops up when people not only wish to minimize the great evil, but also generally agree with the principles that caused it and want to make the historical facts that disturb their sense that they’re right about what usually amounts to bigotry.  So they deny the Holocaust because they don’t want to confront what their own anti-Semiticism led to in the past.  Or, in the case of the trolls on #mooreandme, they deny that rape is a real problem and always has been, because they don’t want to confront their own resentments of women’s right to control their own bodies, or really struggle with the fact that most of their people (in this case, men) have, throughout most of history, treated women like they were subhuman.  And then you have neo-Confederates, who are basically like Holocaust denialists, but for slavery. 

Denialists often can’t completely deny a historical reality, so they just go to great lengths to minimize it.  Holocaust denialists rarely say there was no Holocaust, at least if they’re speaking to a Western audience.  They just claim that the numbers of people killed were negligible, and then go on to argue, either directly or through implication, that the Jews made it all up so that they could have cover to do [fill in one of the millenia-old anti-Semitic theories about a Jewish conspiracy to run the world]. Neo-Confederate arguments are basically identical.  The argument is that the South seceded for reasons other than slavery, and while they admitted that slavery was legal (since that’s basically undeniable), they minimize how many people owned slaves, how much of the Southern economy was based on slavery, and how miserable slavery was.  They argue that the South seceded because of taxes (ignoring that the tax arguments were about slavery), or that it was to prove a point about federalism (ignoring the fact that the South’s biggest beef with the Union was that the federal government wasn’t using its power enough, to return escaped slaves to the masters).  The conclusion reached by denialists is that blacks and liberals exaggerate slavery in order to steal money from white people and give it to black people.  If you ever hear someone screeching about “reparations”, for instance, they are 99.9% likely to be a slavery denialist. The “Never Forget” movement grew in the wake of WWII in response to this common problem of human nature, and it was effective.  Holocaust denialism has been marginalized.  Sadly, slavery denialism is mainstream in the United States, precisely because the winners of the Civil War were more interested in making nice than holding people who committed treason in defense of slavery accountable. This week, there were actual celebrations of the anniversary of secession, and the only reason that happens is that slavery denialism has given them cover to fantasize openly about being able to own slaves. Slavery denialism is so mainstream that its myths have been absorbed by people that reject its conclusions. Even on this blog, I’ve seen well-meaning people who’ve absorbed slavery denialism myths suggest that the reasons for secession were more complex than they were, for instance.

Which is why I was thrilled to see that the South Carolina newspaper The State published an article denouncing slavery denialism, and arguing that, contrary to widespread myth, the South seceded for one reason: slavery.  Their proof of this is from original documents from the era, namely the secession declaration from South Carolina, the first state to commit treason. (Via.)

What we found most striking in rereading the Declaration was the complete absence of any other causes. After laying out the argument that the states retained a right to secede if the Union did not fulfill its constitutional and contractual obligations, the document cited the one failing of the United States: its refusal to enforce the constitutional provision requiring states to return escaped slaves to their owners. “This stipulation was so material to the compact,” the document declares, “that without it that compact would not have been made.”

Emphasis mine, because I know this myth that the South had reasons other than slavery is so widespread pushback in comments is inevitable (and distressing, since it serves racist ends).  One of the common distraction arguments is to say the South seceded over the right to secede, which is like divorcing someone to prove that it’s legal.  It’s not entirely untrue to say that by the time of secession, most Southerners had decided they felt very strongly about “states rights”, but the only reason they developed this belief was it rationalized slavery.  By the same measure, the only reason “states rights” is an issue now is it rationalizes racist, sexist, and homophobic laws.  Then, as now, “states rights” believers support broad federal powers when those powers serve their ends, such as support for Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 then, and support now for federal laws restricting gay rights or women’s rights.  Indeed, the idea that secession was obviously a right wasn’t a given in the South until it was convenient to say so, and even then, the Confederacy didn’t allow secession itself. All claims that the South seceded for reasons other than slavery fall apart even under cursory examination.

So that’s straight up denialism.  But I’m also interested in the other end of the willful ignorance spectrum, which is a squishier liberal “they weren’t that bad, were they?” kind of thinking.  This applies only rarely to trying to minimize the ugliness of slavery and secession, because that’s so far in the past that I think it’s easier for people to think that we’ve left it behind us.  And believing we’ve left it behind us is the main desire that drives this softer kind of denial, instead of the strong denialism, which is driven by wishing to justify affection for the old, bigoted ways.  It’s when it comes to more recent history that you see more liberal-minded people give into the desire to minimize.

I jokingly call it the “all segregationists evaporated in 1964” belief.  For at least my entire lifetime, it’s been basically considered improper and impolite to suggest that anyone living today was a segregation supporter, even though that’s physically impossible. (When I was born, the Civil Rights Act was only 13 years old, to put this into perspective.) They didn’t all die when segregation was banned.  They kept on—-many of them, like Jerry Falwell, fighting for it until the bitter end.  But saying out loud that Falwell was a segregationist became impolite, even though it was true, and when he died only a couple of people in lefty magazines were courageous enough to note that Falwell built his career opposing civil rights, and only switched to anti-feminism when racism stopped being the source of the biggest checks.  Conservatives love to take advantage of this collective willful ignorance, because it gives some of their more odious figures free license to say straight up racist things without paying any real penalty for it.  On the contrary.  They can expect people to leap up to minimize what they said.


Take yesterday, for example.  I wrote a post about Haley Barbour’s comments praising a racist group that ran the KKK out of town only because they had strategic differences with the KKK, not because they had different aims.  I noted that Barbour mentioned that he went to a civil rights rally in 1962, which he spun as if it was an innocent thing to do, and I suggested that he was probably there to intimidate and threaten people.  The fact that I said this by insinuation was supposed to be a joke, a riff on the fact that no one is supposed to say out loud that segregationists are still among us. Even with my long experience in dealing with people’s kneejerk and well-intended desire to minimize, I didn’t expect folks to do that in this case, since it seems so obvious to me that Barbour is a bully and a thug, and the same kind of vicious redneck I’ve have to deal with for much of my life. 

And yet, a sample of people trying to suggest there’s an outside possibility that a conservative white man living in a segregated Mississippi town that is basically run by organized racists went to an MLK speech out of curiosity or boredom.

It was 1962 in Mississippi: what the hell else was there to do?.....

I actually think Mr. Barbour’s account is fairly true. If you live in the boonies you went to whatever show came round regardless of whether you personally interested in it. So they went to see King speak and having no personal interest in civil rights, or current events, or good speech writing Barbour and his friends hung out in the back of the crowed to drink beer/flirt with girls. To imply that they went there with the idea of causing trouble is ridiculous. I doubt any of those boys had enough nerve or drive to go to a rally and actually start shit. If someone else started shit they would probably gleefully join in, only to fade into the crowd when the cops showed up looking for responsible parties, each one crafting a story of how he daringly made a stand against those ******’s, single-handedly fighting off fifty of them before giving the slip to the corrupt authorities.

The last one is quoted at length to highlight the ignorance of how pro-racist the police usually were in places like Yazoo County, Mississippi.  Skulls cracked at civil rights events didn’t usually belong to the opposition.

I find Barbour’s memories of his youth to be completely believable.  (And lynchings happened everywhere in the country, not just in the South, so I doubt his presence at the event was to intimidate blacks.  Picking up girls was a much more likely explanation.) Those citizens groups may or may not have been better than the alternatives, but they were still racist.  I can excuse some ignorance about his childhood, and think his adulthood is what should be focused upon.  That’s where Haley Barbour can prove to be a racist fucktard or a man who outgrew the world he came from.

And the racist fucktard wins by a mile.

Singled out because I want to highlight that people minimizing the realities of segregation often do so with good intentions—-they may even be willing to sign off on the idea that Barbour is racist, but are just reluctant to imagine that a bunch of good ol’ boys in their adolescent cockiness in Mississippi would think it was a fine time intimidating civil rights activists. Particularly as he has expressed open admiration for a white supremacist group.

Here is Michelle Goldberg, dropping some historical context that suggests that my reading, and not the “we can’t accept that someone that blatantly awful made it this far in politics” reading, is the correct one.

At the beginning of the century, Yazoo was a violent enough place to earn prominent mentions in almost every history of lynching, with 19 men dying at the hands of white mobs before 1930. Anti-black violence continued through the 1950s, when Barbour was growing up. In 1957, for example, a white farmer murdered a black soldier for the crime of sitting at a table with the farmer’s sister.

Barbour reports that when Martin Luther King spoke at the Yazoo County fairground in 1962, blacks and whites alike went to see him, though Barbour remained in his car on the rally’s outskirts, which suggests that he was there for reasons other than solidarity. No reporter was present to capture this moment of interracial comity, unique in the history of the South. But journalists were there when King spoke in Yazoo in 1966 during a freedom march, pleading for nonviolence while “[n]egroes and whites exchanged gunfire in a town 75 miles away,” as one dispatch says. About 100 whites stood, staring, on the gathering’s periphery, but the report makes it pretty clear they weren’t there to lend their support.

Odds are that Barbour is remembering an actual event that he did go to, but he’s misremembering the year, probably conveniently.  After all, one of the excuses proffered for him is that if he did this in 1962, he was a minor and folks like the last commenter suggest that we should therefore treat it as a juvenile offense.  But the rally actually happened in 1966, making Barbour 19 and not a minor, and it was only two years before he went into politics himself to help Richard Nixon’s campaign with its Southern strategy.  Notably, this is after the Civil Rights Act, which is probably another reason Barbour is motivated to move the actual date back four years. God forbid we admit that segregationists didn’t just evaporate on the day that bill became law.

As for any suggestion that the White Citizens Council was somehow a gentler, less violent group than the KKK—-instead of just one that was more interested in putting the face of upper class respectability on the same old thuggery—-I offer this:

When black parents in Yazoo filed petitions to desegregate county schools, the Citizens Council took out a full-page newspaper add with their names and addresses. The same information, Dittmer writes, was posted on placards in every store in town.  All the signatories with white employers lost their jobs.

Let me repeat: all.  The chance that Haley Barbour was a real stand-alone guy with anti-racist feeling in the 1960s in a town where white people were fairly uniformly opposed to desegregation is pretty much too impossible to believe, especially since someone who was legitimately anti-racist from that era would have not defected from the Democrats to the Republicans after the Democrats turned civil rights into law.

I understand the urge to minimize.  Acknowledging how ugly people can get to places of power in our country is hard to do.  But please don’t.  Because people make excuses and minimize is why someone like Barbour can get as far as he has.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:57 AM • (79) Comments

Amanda,

I’ve had a question re: the rape charges against Julian Assange, and I was interested in your take on it.  I think that withdrawn consent in the middle of sex is obviously rape.  I have had some maddening conversations with friends where they say, “Wait, CAN YOU withdraw consent in the middle of sex?”  It’s self-evident that consent is granted on a moment by moment basis, and once it’s withdrawn, at that moment, if the other party doesn’t abide by that withdrawal of consent, it turns into rape and right quick.

My concern is about the feasibility of prosecution.  In a case of forcible rape, there’s physical indicators, etc, which wouldn’t be relevant here, since the initial act was consensual.  How do you feel that women would best be able to hold people accountable for rape after consent has been given without it being turned into a crazy he-said she-said, where everyone assumes it’s just that the crazy lady regretted it afterwards?

Comment #1: Fargus  on  12/21  at  12:52 PM

Just a couple of things I like to point out to Civil War denialists that have gotten some moments of silence from them while they regroup and think of more bullshit:

The Louisiana Territory cost the U.S. $15 million in 1803. Let’s adjust for inflation and say that that same amount of land would have cost the government $80 million by 1860. The people enslaved in the south were worth a net total of $1.5 BILLION dollars. Which would you fight over? The U.S. government had already displayed a willingness to pay for land but no such desire to pay for enslaved human beings. Knowing that that same government was going to free said enslaved human beings and you would be out of a shitload of money is why southerners committed treason.

And please ask an enlisted man or woman under the age of 25 what they owned prior to signing up with the armed services. Many did not own the shirt on their back and certainly weren’t able to afford homes or cars. Therefore, when denialists say that most treasonous southern soldiers did not own slaves, please remind them that the vast majority of people the world over who are young enough to fight in a war don’t own much of anything—their parents do.

Comment #2: serious bette  on  12/21  at  01:10 PM

Amanda,

this post is on point and breathtaking in its pointed criticism of Barbour and supporters of segregation.  I appreciate your thoughtful and well-researched arguments.  As an African American woman, I have come to expect a minimization of discussion of race in most online discussions (even in liberal blogs) and you consistently hammer these issues home very effectively. 

It is disappointing to me that the first comment on your persuasive post is one about Assange.  I know he is the hot topic at the moment, but I think we need sustained engagement into issues presented by Barbour and the Presidential hopefuls of the GOP.  Barbour is just an example of the denial of the “Tea Party”, birthers, and others whose cognitive dissonance of this country’s President being a Black man catapulted them in Stage 5 racial panic.

Comment #3: barbara smith  on  12/21  at  01:15 PM

I jokingly call it the “all segregationists evaporated in 1964” belief.

I sometimes encounter this sort of thing from students when I teach the Sixties.  Related to it is a tendency to use the absence of out-and-out segregationist rhetoric in the US today to “prove” that racism is no longer a problem in contrast to the open segregationism seen in the early 1960s.  In fact, as historians like Joseph Crespino have shown, even before 1964, Mississippians who had been advocating “massive resistance” to desegregation began to shift tactics and rhetoric because the strategies pioneered in the late 1950s were not working.  Just as Jim Crow itself was an accommodation to the reality of the 13th Amendment (and the non-enforcement of the 14th and 15th), so post-‘65 racial politics in the South (and the North, for that matter) is an accommodation to the realities of the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts. There’s no point whatsoever arguing for segregation if segregation is illegal. So you shift your ground and, e.g., urge federal policies that aide private (white) academies…or create a “war on drugs” that principally impacts African Americans, creating skyrocketing, racially disparate incarceration (and disfranchisement) rates.

Comment #4: Ben Alpers  on  12/21  at  01:17 PM

Kinda like the guys who only read Playboy for the articles, Haley Barbour only goes to civil rights speeches for the chicks.

Comment #5: Goat  on  12/21  at  01:19 PM

Dammit, I forgot the first rule of conservatives: they are always lying about everything.  Of course Barbour was lying about being 15.

Comment #6: Punditus Maximus  on  12/21  at  01:19 PM

Of course withdrawal of consent is the grounds for it being rape.  Maybe not legally in all states, but if you continue to fuck a protesting person, you are a rapist.

Prosecution is a harder thing, of course.  I’m not a lawyer, and not the person to ask.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/21  at  01:22 PM

Also, in the future, Fargus, can you keep your comments on-topic?  Thread-jacking such an important issue may be perceived, rightly or wrongly, as minimizing the importance of this topic.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/21  at  01:24 PM

On the states’ rights issues pre-Civil War, it’s the same cognitive dissonance we see with today’s Republican party. The slave owners were against states’ rights before they were for it. As in they wanted to force territories that were becoming states to become pro-slavery whether the people of that territory wanted it or not. And as you mentioned, the whole fugitive slave thing was pretty anti-states rights.

I vowed as a 17-year-old in 1978 to never ever visit Mississippi again when our family RV had the misfortune of breaking down there. You could go to a state rest stop and see the old segregated public restrooms that were in horrible condition. And my father, when we had to spend the night in front of the mechanic’s garage, hung out with an old black man sitting in a lawn chair next door. The white people driving and walking by gave him some pretty scary looks. And it wasn’t like we were from the northeast. We lived in freaking Florida, not exactly a bastion of enlightened thinking. While all corners of the U.S. have serious issues with racism, it’s just that much worse in MS.

Comment #9: louC  on  12/21  at  01:24 PM

Knowing that that same government was going to free said enslaved human beings and you would be out of a shitload of money is why southerners committed treason.

Of course, this is a rationalization on their part.  Slavery is stealing labor.  So it’s as if you stole something from someone and then threw a fit when the cops showed up to take it back.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/21  at  01:27 PM

Fargus, move it to an appropriate thread.

Comment #11: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/21  at  01:29 PM

But the rally actually happened in 1966, making Barbour 19 and not a minor, and it was only two years before he went into politics himself to help Richard Nixon’s campaign with its Southern strategy.

This fits more with the picture I painted in the earlier thread:

I have no doubt that the ambitious little ratf*cker already had his eye on the main chance and was doing a little research for his future career. Given his stated admiration for the Citizens’ Councils, at the time he likely saw the sentiment behind them as an attractive political avenue for himself.

Weasels like Barbour aren’t into direct action, preferring to hand off the dirty work to others. Notice, for example, how he’s ever so fastidious when it comes to distinguishing socially acceptable racists (the Citizens’ Councils) from the lumpen ones (KKK rednecks). My bet remains that he was listening to and observing the reactions of the whites around him, perhaps doing a little recon on what the enemy was saying.

Comment #12: Gracchus.  on  12/21  at  01:35 PM

Ben Alpers @#4

As I remember, Massive Resistance (always capitalized like that!) was a response to Brown v. the Board of Education so it started in the 50’s. 

You’re right that many methods have been used to avoid integration.  One of the most effective ones was the control of property:  Realtors,  mortgage bankers, and others worked together to make sure that every neighborhood was either all white or all black. 

I shouldn’t have said ‘worked’ in past tense.  This still goes on today.  And it goes on in all areas of the country, not just in Mississippi.

Comment #13: Nutella  on  12/21  at  01:40 PM

When I moved my shit out of DC, it happened to be the weekend of the Beck rally. I decided to go to mt vernon since I had not been there before and wanted a break from packing. This was stupid as the beck-devotees basically worship the place and it was filled to the brim with old white anger-monsters. I ended up overhearing SO many conversations about how slavery wasn’t so bad because washington allowed his slaves some of the leftover animal feed! He also allowed the slaves to sell their eggs for real life money making his slaves “more free than the slaves of the democrat welfare state.” It was gross how many people seemed to think that “benevolently” enslaved was how black people were best off.

Comment #14: alysia  on  12/21  at  01:47 PM

Integration maps at http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/explorer?view=raceethnicity&lat=39.7392&lng;=-104.984&l=10 show how very segregated our neighborhoods are:  Try looking at Chicago, New York, or Philadelphia.  Interestingly enough, Yazoo City looks pretty integrated on these maps.  I don’t know what it’s like to live there now, of course.

Comment #15: Nutella  on  12/21  at  01:52 PM

re serious bette @#2:  Excellent point.  I would also like to point out that confining pro-slavery activism and sentiment to actual slaveholders lays a heavy finger on the denialists’ side of the scale.  There were entire economies built around slavery.  There were the hands-on people who made money trading slaves, transporting slaves, catching slaves, watching slaves, torturing/killing slaves, etc.  There were the logistics people who manufactured and sold the chains and manacles and other hardware.  I’m sure someone with greater knowledge or a more robust imagination could write several pages off the top of her head about all the non-slaveholding people who had significant financial interest in maintaining the institution.

Even if you allow for the fiscally unwieldy and inefficient nature of an economy built on chattel slavery, you have to factor in the cultural, sociological, and political structures that evolved around the institution.  Is it beyond reason to suggest that, say, an illiterate, penniless white Southern farmer who couldn’t get out of debt because he couldn’t compete with his slaveholding neighbor might sign up to fight for the Confederacy because, hey, they’re paying and he gets to defend his superiority over the negro?  I think not.  Consider how many people today still gleefully fuck themselves at the polls for the right to make negroes hurt worse than they will.

Comment #16: Sam Holloway  on  12/21  at  02:12 PM

Flirten with girls and busting a few heads, sounds like youthful indescretion to me.

Comment #17: John Rove  on  12/21  at  02:20 PM

To be honest, I don’t think he’s minimizing injustices.  I think he (and many others too) is so self centered he has never looked beyond his own experiences to get a bigger picture.  It’s not minimizing, he’s blind to what happens to others.  It requires a leap in intellectual/emotional development that I don’t think he (and again, many others) has made.  It often comes out in the level of arguments/proofs they propose.

I would also add, I’m sure that in his mind, intimidating is innocent. Standing around looking threatening is a great way to “show people their place”, and if they stay there, everyone is safer. Shoot- even threatening someone is only talk.

Comment #18: drachonfire  on  12/21  at  02:20 PM

The “there were hardly any slaveowners” argument is a really strange defense, if you think about it. It’s basically arguing that feudal societies weren’t feudal because there were hardly any aristocrats—when that’s precisely the thing that made them feudal societies!

Comment #19: Llelldorin  on  12/21  at  02:22 PM

From The Oxford History of the American People by Samuel Eliot Morison, who could certainly never be accused of anti-Southern bias:

[N]obody who has read the letters, state papers, newspapers, and other surviving literature of the generation before 1861 can honestly deny that the one main, fundamental reason for secession of the original states which formed the Southern Confederacy was to protect, expand, and perpetuate the slavery of the Negro race. In the official declarations by the seceding conventions in states which formed the Confederacy, there is no mention of any grievance unconnected with slavery.

Comment #20: Bitter Scribe  on  12/21  at  02:30 PM

It’s so chilling to read that Barbour went to this rally to sit in his truck at the edges.  Do you have to be a person of color, or a woman, to immediately and viscerally get how chilling that is?  I don’t know.

I know that bringing up appearance can cause a lot of pushback, but I"m not going to back down from saying that from the very first time I saw and heard Haley Barbor speak, I thought to myself that if someone called up Central Casting and said, yeah send me down a guy to play a southern sheriff who turns the hoses on black people, they would have sent this guy.

Comment #21: Daisy  on  12/21  at  02:30 PM

The “there were hardly any slaveowners” argument is a really strange defense, if you think about it. It’s basically arguing that feudal societies weren’t feudal because there were hardly any aristocrats—when that’s precisely the thing that made them feudal societies!

:-p Given that plantation societies effectively WERE feudal societies, that’s a pretty good comparison.

It’s horrifying to see the self-destructive nature of the south.  You’ve got a handful of white elitists pushing their poorer white neighbors to beat on the poorer black neighbors.  All so they can collectively exist in some of the poorest, filthiest, most underdeveloped states in the nation.

I’d love to see the economic impact of a lynching or a white riot.  How many jobs were lost.  How much money it cost the county.  How many extra people put on the federal dole.  I think the most compelling argument against a Barbour Presidency would be simply, “Who the hell wants to live in Mississippi?”

Comment #22: Zifnab25  on  12/21  at  02:34 PM

Flirten with girls and busting a few heads, sounds like youthful indescretion to me.

One of the great things about Republicans is their selectively broad view of “youthful.” I’ll always remember how Henry Hyde, one of Bill Clinton’s chief moralising hounders during the Lewinsky business, brushed his own extramarital affair off as a “youthful indiscretion” when he was caught. Hyde was 41 years old at the time of the affair.

Comment #23: Gracchus.  on  12/21  at  02:46 PM

when he died only a couple of people in lefty magazines were courageous enough to note that Falwell built his career opposing civil rights, and only switched to anti-feminism when racism stopped being the source of the biggest checks.

While I think your analysis above is spot on, I think there’s another angle that’s missing.  One of the big differences between the segregationists who became persona-non-grata (like David Duke) and the ones who stayed “respectable” (like Falwell) is that Falwell was widely seen as a con-artist by the political and journalist elites - it at least seemed like he was in it for the money and the power, and not because he was “really a racist.”  And although the idea that someone who gins up racist resentment for money rather than because he “really believes it” seems worse somehow to me than the converse, to the political and journalist elites if you’re doing something for the money or the power that’s not as bad as if you’re doing it because you really believe in it.

Comment #24: NonyNony  on  12/21  at  02:48 PM

Did anyone see one of those Sons of Confederate Veterans scumbags on Hardball yesterday, trying to weasel around the truth?  I guess they are throwing a ball - a ball!! - with dancing, etc. in South Carolina to celebrate secession. It was quite a performance - no, secession wasn’t an act of treason, it was an act of courage; no, secession didn’t cause the war, it was Lincoln who caused the war by refusing to let the South leave the Union; no, it wasn’t over slavery (he did slip up and admit that slavery was an “issue”). And then Matthews asked the guy if he would fight for or against slavery. And his answer was that it wasn’t over slavery, but he would have fought on the side of his ancestors for the South.

So there you have it, denialism in action. I don’t know if this guy is a straight-up liar or someone who sincerely bought into this version of events because of cognitive dissonance, in an effort to minimize the evils done by his ancestors. Does it matter, though? It’s still evil and harmful.

Comment #25: elena  on  12/21  at  03:05 PM

I liked what someone at Balloon Juice said about Barbour’s comment that it “wasn’t that bad”.  I paraphrase: “That’s because YOU’RE WHITE!  The Holocaust wasn’t that bad for the Nazis either, idiot.”

As to Assange, people are imperfect beings.  It IS entirely possible that the guy that gave us a good thing in Wikileaks, is also a completely reprehensible human being.  I’ll wait on the courts to determine his level of guilt, but it looks strongly like he is minimally a misogynistic asshole.

Comment #26: Geeno  on  12/21  at  03:26 PM

...he would have fought on the side of his ancestors for the South.

Oh, for a time machine…

Comment #27: Bitter Scribe  on  12/21  at  03:29 PM

Apologies, wasn’t trying to thread-jack.  I wasn’t trying to minimize anything, I just got to the bit about #mooreandme and a question occurred to me and I jumped straight to post it while it was in my mind.  I’ve taken it to a more appropriate thread.

I tend to sympathize with the take that Barbour can get away with this kind of nonsense until he comes under more intense scrutiny.  I’d hate to be proven wrong, but as long as he’s a Southern former governor and just a presidential hopeful, and not a candidate or nominee, there’s almost no scrutiny there at all.  Couple that with the fact that white southerners tend to get a pass anyway, and the recent rash of neo-Confederate revisionism, and it’s easy to see how the dude will skate through this at least for now.  But I’ve really got to think that if this guy were in any kind of true national spotlight, stuff like this would take him down right quick.

Comment #28: Fargus  on  12/21  at  03:36 PM

@Fargus: one thing our Establishment Media has been very comfortable with is defining Republican deviancy down.

Comment #29: Punditus Maximus  on  12/21  at  03:38 PM

I read about Barbour on TNC’s blog and that led a link of the actual newsletters for the Citizens Council.  The text of the articles pretty much makes it clear what kind of organization this was:

http://www.citizenscouncils.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=newspaper

Comment #30: barbara smith  on  12/21  at  03:42 PM

@Punditus Maximus: Agreed.  But then I can’t help but remember George Allen’s “macaca” moment pushing him from the race.  Obviously not all circumstances are created equal, and that was an unusually bad year for Republicans, but it showed that there ARE circumstances where even Republicans who are being talked about as presidential contenders can be kicked to the curb for race-baiting.

I’m not confident, though, that that was indicative of any larger social trend or anything like that, sadly.  It could be that if the economy’s still bad, the “Republicans are racist assholes” meme that sometimes gets its head briefly above water will be entirely displaced by the “Republicans resurgent as Obama flounders” meme.

Comment #31: Fargus  on  12/21  at  03:47 PM

I think your upbringing in Texas has a lot to do with this.  As a Northerner:

1) It’s always been self-evident to the vast, vast majority of us up here that the Civil War was indeed fought over slavery, and we’re pretty contemptuous of the ignorant yahoos who seem to have come out of nowhere to assert otherwise.  We think they are stupid and not worth the time of day, and they certainly don’t represent “everybody” or anything near close to everybody.  Or anybody worth considering or paying attention to.

2) We disagree that it’s “impolite to assert that no one living today was a segregation supporter.”  Those of us Northerners who are age 40 and older all have stories about going to the South for some reason and finding to our horror that black people couldn’t drink at the same water fountains, use the same bathroom facilities, etc.  A 50-year-old friend from Texas once remarked on how it was “wonderful” that a black family that happened to be sitting one table over from us at a restaurant was “allowed” to eat there, because they certainly couldn’t have eaten with whites in her youth.  My FIL, when in the service, was traveling with his men in the south and was told that one of his men couldn’t eat in the same restaurant (which, of course, he objected to and said my men will stay with me and that’s the end of it).  We remember the Little Rock schoolhouse integration and we’re more than aware that things that we as Northerners take for granted are new to some areas of the South who are far, far behind the times.

And before anyone gets into busing-in-Boston and all that—sorry, maybe the great unwashed in the North didn’t want black kids bused into their neighborhoods, but they didn’t think that they shouldn’t have the right to at least anywhere they wanted in the damn bus, or use a water fountain or a toilet, or eat in a restaurant.

Comment #32: Susanne  on  12/21  at  03:48 PM

With all this I guess we’re about to find out how far the (false) equivalency of pointing out something is racist and actually being racist.

At this point, it seems that you’d have to actually be wearing a hood and carrying a burning cross to count as racist.  The CCC is as crazy as the KKK, but juuuust a bit more subtle.

I sure hope that isn’t enough to give this guy a pass.

Of course, it may just redefine the standard to “not as crazy as the CCC”...

Comment #33: wsn  on  12/21  at  03:50 PM

Grachus:

Yeah, republicans and conservitives are just a bunch of crazy kids.  A while back TPM was showing pictures from a young guns event and all those people were older than my parents.  I guess the good part is that eventually all the octagenerians that make up the conservitive party will die off

Comment #34: John Rove  on  12/21  at  03:53 PM

This is a very good post. Thank you.

Comment #35: tesseral  on  12/21  at  03:57 PM

One of my favorite slavery denial myths is that “slaves weren’t beaten as much as the PC liberals say they were.”  This is interesting because (besides that there were beaten slaves) they weren’t beaten because they were property.  They treated slaves like they were televisions, few people break tvs because they are angry and that they are expensive.  So their excuse for minimizing slavery is just as bad.

One of my wild, but probably true theories about conservatives is that they still think of blacks as slaves.  Besides the “blacks are on the liberal plantation” line, they also trot out the “liberals support black abortions” line.  You see, every conservative deep down believes that the re-legalization of slavery is around the corner, so they treat every black fetus as potential property.  That and of course they hate women.

Comment #36: Albert Cirrus  on  12/21  at  04:07 PM

TNC has a great post up on his blog which discredits pretty much every part of Barbour’s statement.  Before reading it, it was a stretch to think that the “White citizen’s council” in Yazoo was any different than it was in every other town in the South, but i thought maybe Barbour was just too young/naive to know what the WCC actually did. Now it seems obvious he’s just flat out lying, which makes him seem even more racist/cynical. Ugh. I understand the desire to minimize, even though it’s wrong. I grew up in Texas as a minority, and didn’t experience all that much racism (it was there in the background and a few rednecks would say racist shit, but mostly you were left alone). So it’s just hard to comprehend how much progress we’ve made. We as a society were siccing dogs on children, killing innocent people, and basically creating a “night-is-day” complete inversion of justice in the South—all because people wanted to sit at the same lunch counter or exercise their legal right to vote—only 45 years ago. Racism is still pretty bad, but it’s light years less overt and total than it was then, and it’s just hard to imagine coming so far in so little time. Then again, the transition from the Holocaust to a much less anti-Semitic society was also quite fast. Our brains just don’t like to think things can change that quickly—it disturbs our sense of order and security.

Comment #37: t-ster  on  12/21  at  04:15 PM

In fairness, minimizing them is rather an improvement over either ignoring or actively denying them, which is the normal Republican attitude.  It has indeed the foundation of the Republican party since at least the late 60s.

Comment #38: DrDick  on  12/21  at  04:20 PM

Susanne—agreed 100%.

All one had to do was to be alive in 1968 to remember the Wallace campaign.

Comment #39: James  on  12/21  at  04:26 PM

confining pro-slavery activism and sentiment to actual slaveholders lays a heavy finger on the denialists’ side of the scale

The Southern Plantation system, which was built and relied on slave labor, produced a magnitude of other ills as well.  Through their economic clout and economies of scale, the Planters successfully impoverished and marginalized most of the rural white population and increasingly drove them off of the best farmland.  They also established themselves as a political oligarchy which retained control throughout the region up through the 1960s and still retains power in many rural areas.  The resulting political discontent in the South was the prime driver for Indian Removal in the 1830s, which was mostly focused on removing the large inland tribes of the South (Cherokees, Muskogees (Creeks), Choctaws, Chickasaws, and Seminoles in order to open their lands to settlement by the displaced small farmers of the coastal plain.  Removal of the Indians in the lower Midwest was more of an afterthought and almost none were removed from the upper Midwest or Atlantic seaboard.

Comment #40: DrDick  on  12/21  at  04:32 PM

The usual suspects are asleep on the job so I will fill in with their favorite tropes:

Republicans freed the slaves.
Blacks are teh real racists now.
—Their prime weapon against the white man is Affirmative Action
—Five of nine white male Supreme Court Justices is not enough

Comment #41: Hector B.  on  12/21  at  04:41 PM

One of my favorite slavery denial myths is that “slaves weren’t beaten as much as the PC liberals say they were.” This is interesting because (besides that there were beaten slaves) they weren’t beaten because they were property.

Oh, they were beaten, all right. Not all of them, all the time. But think about it: What other way is there to make someone work for you for absolutely no compensation?

Comment #42: Bitter Scribe  on  12/21  at  04:59 PM

Albert—except that what they would do is have a pregnant slave lie down so that her belly was in a ditch, so that when they beat her it wouldn’t harm the developing property.

Comment #43: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/21  at  05:05 PM

Susanne, your confidence that Southern slavery apologists can be safely ignored because the South is irrelevant is disproven neatly by the number of American Presidents from the South in recent decades.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/21  at  05:07 PM

Susanne, as a fellow Northerner, I’m not so sure the prevalent attitudes toward the South here are really based on the North being on the right side of the civil rights debate post-Civil War. It has more to do with snobbery over cultural differences (especially if you’re talking about New York or Boston) and, as such, isn’t really a good thing. North doesn’t have the greatest record on civil rights and race relations either; it is only by a direct comparison with the South that it comes out looking a bit better. I mean, does it really matter that the kids being bused to desegregate Boston schools were allowed to sit anywhere on the bus? The very fact that an anti-school desegregation campaign was allowed to gain mass support in Boston as recently as 1974 means that we don’t get to pat ourselves on the back and point-and-laugh at the ignorant Southern yahoos.

Comment #45: elena  on  12/21  at  05:15 PM

Susanne, your confidence that Southern slavery apologists can be safely ignored because the South is irrelevant is disproven neatly by the number of American Presidents from the South in recent decades.

There is also the fact that most of the biggest gains in the 2010census are in Southern states, who gained seats in Congress.

Comment #46: DrDick  on  12/21  at  05:17 PM

I’m not so sure the prevalent attitudes toward the South here are really based on the North being on the right side of the civil rights debate post-Civil War. It has more to do with snobbery over cultural differences

As a southerner (from Oklahoma), I would say that this is dead on.  Much of the difference is between largely urban industrial areas in the north and largely rural agrarian areas in the South.  It is also true that the educational system and public infrastructure in the south has always been less developed than in the North owing to the ongoing stranglehold of the Planter class and their allies on the politics of the region (see my post above).

Comment #47: DrDick  on  12/21  at  05:22 PM

I should add that I also lived for 12 years in Chicago, which is one of the most profoundly racist places I have ever been.  It is also the case that defacto segregation also existed in the north (Harlem for instance) and there were large numbers of “sunset town”, which barred blacks from being inside the borders from sundown to sunup throughout the Midwest and northern states.

Comment #48: DrDick  on  12/21  at  05:30 PM

DrDick, exactly. It’s a cultural/class issue largely based on the urban/rural divide. Most of the time, when the South/North thing comes up, people will talk about rednecks, guns, how the South is backwards, how they talk funny, how widespread poverty is, and how racist they are. But that latter has more than a whiff of “racist backwards rednecks, unlike us industrialized, cultured, city-dwellers.” So even the Southern racism is cast as a cultural divide issue, and not as a social justice issue. Chicago, of course, is a great example - Mayor Richard Daley never officially acknowledged it, but he was a member of an ethnic Irish youth club that committed multiple acts of violence against African Americans in the Chicago race riots of 1919. It’s one of those cities that really illustrate that there doesn’t need to be a formal segregationist law on the books for segregation to take place.

Also, interesting points about the effects of the Planter class on education/infrastructure in the South. Sort of like the “patriarchy hurts men, too” argument - it’s not something I would normally lose sleep over, since the effect of oppression on the oppressed is much more devastating than its effect on the oppressor - but racism carries negative consequences for the entire community, even the racists.

Comment #49: elena  on  12/21  at  05:56 PM

Some of the comments here about experiences in the South reminded me of my own experience. I was working as a surveyor for the National Park Service. We worked out of Lakewood Colorado and ranged the entire U.S. In the summer of 1980 we were sent to work at Cumberland Island, Georgia. Although there was Park Service housing on the island, we were told that congressmen liked to reserve that housing for trysts with their mistresses, so our office arranged for our crew to stay at a lodge in St. Marys. When I arrived at the lodge to check in, the very nice proprietor asked me “Do you have any black people on your crew?”. When I answered in the negative, he replied “That’s good, because if you did, we couldn’t let the crew stay here”. This was 1980! He went on to explain that he was “not a racist” but must uphold the community standards because otherwise he would have no business. I had several other experiences while working there which reminded me that the Old South has not died off. The events following Katrina should convince anyone of that.

Comment #50: tesseral  on  12/21  at  05:57 PM

2) We disagree that it’s “impolite to assert that no one living today was a segregation supporter.” Those of us Northerners who are age 40 and older all have stories about going to the South for some reason and finding to our horror that black people couldn’t drink at the same water fountains, use the same bathroom facilities, etc.

I think you miss the point. 

Everyone knows that segregation actually happened.  Amanda’s not disputing that knowledge.  But does anyone know anybody who will admit to having been a segregationist?  It is not possible that every single segregationist from the Civil Rights era is now either dead or a KKK member.  But they would like for everyone to believe that.  They would like for everyone to believe that segregation was a terrible yoke around the necks of Whites and Blacks alike, and that but for a few very evil jerks (who are now either dead or KKK members) everyone would have lived in harmony.

They want you to forget that in actuality, most Whites in the South (and many in the North) loved segregation, argued for it, fought for it, and supported measures to keep it alive long after it was made illegal.

Comment #51: Denise  on  12/21  at  05:58 PM

@32:

maybe the great unwashed in the North didn’t want black kids bused into their neighborhoods, but they didn’t think that they shouldn’t have the right to at least anywhere they wanted in the damn bus, or use a water fountain or a toilet, or eat in a restaurant.

I notice that you didn’t mention African Americans being able to live anywhere that they wanted, since that was very much not the case in the urban North.

@39:

All one had to do was to be alive in 1968 to remember the Wallace campaign.

...which did very well in many non-Southern states.

For example, in 1968, Wallace captured:

10.04% of the vote in Michigan
11.81% of the vote in Ohio
13.25% of the vote in Nevada
11.39% of the vote in Missouri
14.47% of the vote in Maryland
10.19% of the vote in Kansas
11.45% of the vote in Indiana
12.55% of the vote in Idaho
13.28% of the vote in Delaware
12.07% of the vote in Alaska

[Source: Dave Leip’s Atlas of US Presidential Elections]

There was far more support for George Wallace in these states in 1968 than, say, for Ralph Nader in 2000.

George Wallace was (properly) seen as a major national political force precisely because he had great appeal outside of the South. As important as Nixon’s Southern Strategy was in 1968, in 1972 Nixon’s attempt to forge a “new majority” was built on luring the votes of white, ethnic working-class Northern Wallace voters (people who a little later would be called “Reagan Democrats”) to his campaign. This is why Nixon put such a premium on making sure Wallace ran as a Democrat not an Independent in ‘72, and why Nixon showered so much cultural attention on “hard hats” and threw relatively many (for a GOP President with a long, anti-labor track record) policy bones to organized labor.

(All of this is incidentally covered very well in Jefferson Cowie’s recent book on the politics of the working class in the 1970s, Stayin’ Alive)

Comment #52: Ben Alpers  on  12/21  at  06:04 PM

Even if you took Haley at his word, assuming the most benign of motives back in the day, Americablog sums it up nicely:

“Barbour on the segregated south: It wasn’t that bad.”
 
I’m sure it wasn’t, if you were a fat white guy.

Comment #53: judybrowni  on  12/21  at  06:11 PM

wsn, please quit calling the WCCs the “CCC”—the Civilian Conservation Core was a proud product of the New Deal, not a tool of Southern yahoos.

Punks hanging out on the fringes of a political event, yeah, that’s not intimidating or anything.  Best case: looking for random excitement.  Worst case, truck bed filled with baseball bats.

Kudos to Amanda on one of her best journalistic posts!

Comment #54: Eric_RoM  on  12/21  at  06:13 PM

There was far more support for George Wallace in these states in 1968 than, say, for Ralph Nader in 2000.

It is also worth noting that the highest KKK membership in the country today is in Indiana and that Neo-Nazi groups are prevalent throughout the North (I was in Chicago when they wanted to march in Skokie).  Some of the worst violence against forced bussing was in Detroit.  There is just as much racism in the North as in the South, it is just structured differently.  I also have the perspective of having grown up under Jim Crow and segregation in Oklahoma in the 50s and 60s and having seen the Civil Rights movement play out on my TV every night from junior high onward.  I also created a bit of a stir as a four year old by starting to drink out of the wrong water fountain at the bus depot.  It made quite an impression on me.

Comment #55: DrDick  on  12/21  at  06:26 PM

@ Eric_RoM,

Oops.  I was thinking of the Council of Conservative Citizens, which seems to be abbreviated as CofCC.

Which is not quite what is being discussed here anyway.

Ah well. My bad. Won’t happen again.

Comment #56: wsn  on  12/21  at  06:38 PM

Removal of the Indians in the lower Midwest was more of an afterthought and almost none were removed from the upper Midwest or Atlantic seaboard.

No need to physically remove the ones killed off my smallpox.

Comment #57: James  on  12/21  at  07:03 PM

No need to physically remove the ones killed off my smallpox.

While their populations were dramatically reduced by disease compared to the southern tribes, there were still thousands of Indians in those areas.  The critical factor on the Atlantic coast is that their land had already been taken and they were confined to small reservations, where many remain.  There are a several Indian tribes on Long Island, as well as in Massachusetts and Connecticut, located on state reservations (these were established before the American Revolution).  The same is true all along the coast.  The last native speaker of Narragansett died in the 1930s.  The Indians of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, southern Michigan, and Wisconsin were in fact removed, also owing to settler pressures.  Most eventually wound up in my home state of Oklahoma after the Civil War (the last native speaker of Peoria died there in the 1970s).  Those of the upper Midwest were left alone as nobody wanted the land for anything except the timber and the tribes signed treaties allowing that.  Indians were removed when they controlled significant amounts of land that white settlers wanted and the pressure began in and was always strongest in the South.  FWIW, I am a cultural anthropologist specializing in Native North America, particularly the southern tribes.

Comment #58: DrDick  on  12/21  at  07:27 PM

I’ve always seen Holocaust Denialism as a matter of perspective: was the Holocaust a historical event or a goal?  That makes all the difference, since most Holocaust Denialists who say it didn’t happen have a tendency to wish it did.  Those who do squeamish things around the edges, trying to foment doubt about the complicity of certain groups and so forth, are in a different sort of denial.

Racist Denialism also comes in two or more sorts.  There are those who suggest that the blacks, being inferior people, actually liked being subservient and needed a guiding hand.  They rarely say it that way, instead talking about generations on welfare and a host of other dogwhistles.  And then there are those who just lack empathy for others and because things weren’t that terrible for them, they figure everyone else had a not terrible time as well.  In other words, they can be evil or clueless.  In most cases the cluelessness never goes to straight evil, though the evil messages resonate.

I could forgive Barbour’s cluelessness if he was fifteen, but the fact that he misremembered things that badly and was nineteen changes things.  That’s his evil showing through.  I can’t state with as much confidence as some here that he attended to intimidate, but going to an event without any real plans or intents is something much less likely for a nineteen-year-old than a fifteen-year-old.  Obviously neither you nor I was there, but since he’s already lied about the when it’s not out of the question to suggest he’d lie about the why.

I still think it’s more important to focus on his modern-day relationship with racism than on whether or not Barbour appropriately apologizes for the citizen councils of his much-younger (but maybe not as much younger as earlier stated) days and his memories thereof.  It’s good to hear him backtracking from his earlier comments and his aide’s spinning clarification, but it’s still not a true repudiation of racism until he actually stops being a racist sympathizer.  I’d like to see the focus shift to his more recent events, such as the reincarnation as a watermelon “joke” and his refusal to distance himself from racist groups that wish to honor him.

Comment #59: 3letterjon  on  12/21  at  08:37 PM

Wow. I actually got singled out. I guess I should have emphasized my final point more. Whatever Haley Barbour’s reasons for attending that rally he’s far to much of a sniveling, whiny coward to actually do anything. There are people in that snobby racism bunch who are clever enough to play their prejudice close to the chest, rejecting the violence and the uncouthness of the Klan and the Aryan Nations and sell themselves as some sort of genteel bigot to further their aims with the public. Barbour just doesn’t strike me as that type. He’ll intimidate if he’s not threatened, bust heads if someone else instigates it, and rail about the evils of blacks, Jews, Muslims, etc. if there’s a sympathetic audience but he isn’t going to suffer for the cause.

Comment #60: scrumby  on  12/21  at  08:37 PM

Christ, Susanne.  You are packing a whole lot of Northern White privilege there.  Just a very few examples:

Boston was one of the most racist cities I lived in.  The Stuart murder and the state of siege placed on the Black community did not happen that long ago.  Try being black even today and going into a townie bar, or moving into the neighborhood.  Black students still harassed by police at Harvard.  Henry Louis Gates-gate in rarefied Cambridge, anyone?

Western New York where I grew up, my older cousins all supporting George Wallace’s campaign, people crowing “Good riddance, glad he’s dead” when Martin Luther King was murdered, my family friends joking about how they shot at the N***er soldiers for fun when they served in WWII.  We were also a Sundown Town, and 50% of the county went for McCain-Palin, despite the economic devastation in my hometown, and I will bet my last dollar it was partly because of race.

None of this bullshit about snobbery, cultural divides, etc.  Those are mere euphemisms.  Where I grew up, racism was and still is an integral part of the culture, period.

Don’t get me started on Philly, where I live now (although my neighborhood is very integrated, and I love this city).  The legacy of Frank Rizzo lives on.  Just read the comments section in the Inquirer on any day, I dare you.

I swear the denialism - among even white liberals, because that is what their minimizing leads to - Amanda writes about here makes my blood boil.  Somebody should start a blog where everybody can record their experiences with allegedly post-1964 civil rights America, from all four points in the country, so we will never have the excuse (I am looking at the white liberals and even so-called progressives) of minimizing, denying and forgetting.  This is no less than a crime against all our children of all colors, and against future generations.

Comment #61: Kathy  on  12/21  at  08:50 PM

I’ve noticed the people that are hardest on guys like Barbour are the usually the folks from the South. I guess we’re not as likely to minimize them or the harm they do because we’re used to dealing with them and know exactly how much damage they do. And how much more they’d do if given a chance.
Grow up hearing phrases like “The War of Northern Aggression” in history class in 1991 and you kind of lose the urge to downplay just how badly some people would still like to go back to that time.

When I was born, the Civil Rights Act was only 13 years old, to put this into perspective.

Good grief. I’m the same age as you and I never thought of it that way. I’m not one to minimize the segregationists either in number or harm, but that’s the first time it’s ever occurred to me just how many adults I dealt with on a regular basis as a kid absolutely had to have been segregationists. It’s a bit staggering.

@Denise: Do you mean politicians that will admit to supporting segregation, or just regular people? Regular people do it all the time, but only in the “right” sort of company.

Comment #62: JThompson  on  12/21  at  08:52 PM

I live in Boston now. It is one of the most segregated places I’ve ever been. What they couldn’t accomplish by blocking bussing and integration they accomplished by sending their kids to private schools or living in solidly white neighborhoods. That is what a “good school system” means up here. You can see it on the link above with the 40 American cities broken down by race. People regularly tell me to be careful when I take the orange line. Yeah, thats the line that goes to Roxbury, Hyde Park, Jamaica Plains and Dorcehster. These are the only places in Boston where minorities are not a tiny minority.

I heard the n word more from Italians in Rhode Island than I heard from My Tennessee family when I visited. And they were racists too.

Comment #63: sizzle  on  12/21  at  08:55 PM

I’ve always seen Holocaust Denialism as a matter of perspective: was the Holocaust a historical event or a goal?

And the horrible thing is that this is actually a legitimate question.  From what I’ve read, there’s a strong case to be made that the Holocaust was a matter of bureaucratic processes - that competing bureaucracies just drifted further and further into the orderly extermination of populaces under competitive pressure without ever quite intending to get there from the start.  There was a ratchet effect where you couldn’t go wrong by paying attention to Mean Mr Moustache’s ranting, but could be seriously compromised by easing up.

Cf the US security nonsense happening now, where no-one is willing to say “enough”.

Comment #64: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/21  at  10:20 PM

Piator?  No.

They damned well intended to get there from the start.  The issue was that it was on its face barbaric, even in anti-semitic Europe.  The bureaucratic shambling was simply trying to get to yes on the question of “eliminating” jews.

I don’t think people really understand just how evil the Nazis were, and just how normal that evilness was in humanity in general.  Few people read decent history (you know, where the losers are respected, but not Lost Causeism).  If the Nazis had won at Moscow in 1940, they were fully fucking prepared to instigate an urban famine in which tens of millions of Russians were to die.  US Southerners were pretty much like that too, and the US in general back in the day was fundamentally based on genocide as a means of economic growth.  Speculate on land that isn’t yours, ferment land grabs if the local border folks weren’t breeding their way there, and the country gets huge amounts of cash and collaterals for loans that built up the more settled areas.

Comment #65: shah8  on  12/21  at  11:03 PM

Inre:  #14.  It just shows what you get when you have Glen Beck teaching you history.  Washington was the first Federalist and believed in a strong central government.

Comment #66: DBK  on  12/22  at  12:14 AM

Amanda, I’m a white Northern professional in early middle age, and I was really shocked by that “when the cops showed up looking for responsible parties” bit:  thanks for addressing it!

On the Northern racism front—am I right that MLK said he was never so frightened before as when he lectured in Chicago?

Comment #67: Josh  on  12/22  at  12:55 AM

It is also worth noting that the highest KKK membership in the country today is in Indiana and that Neo-Nazi groups are prevalent throughout the North (I was in Chicago when they wanted to march in Skokie).  Some of the worst violence against forced bussing was in Detroit.

Another interesting thing I remembered reading from somewhere eons ago: during the height of the KKK’s popularity in the 1920’s, the state with the most numbers of registered KKK members was in the state of Ohio. 

May explain the continuous issues the local townies in my college town seem to have regarding interracial dating, racist harassment of POC, and one even wanting to not only should racist taunts…but also attempt to physically attack me during the mid-late 1990’s. 

A Chinese-American supervisor and friend also recounted how when he stopped at a gas station in rural Georgia on his way to Florida in the mid-‘90s, he was confronted by a shotgun wielding White man beside a pickup truck who said “Well lookee here.  Chinese food.” and gave him a creepy glare.  He immediately got back into his car as he realized things could get ugly fast.

Comment #68: exholt  on  12/22  at  01:15 AM

Christ, Susanne.  You are packing a whole lot of Northern White privilege there.  Just a very few examples

I’ll add one.  My hometown, Los Angeles.  What sizzle @63 wrote rings true for me.  After the Watts Riots of 1965 (I was 5), white flight to the San Fernando Valley, Ventura County and Orange County was commonplace.  Now, the freeways are markers: south of the 10 is where *they* live; if you live west of the 405, you’re pretty guaranteed not to have to deal with *them* except as the dudes who wash your car etc.  Nutella’s link to the integration map app at the NYT had me chuckling.  I punched in my zip code 90057 and one of the very few green circles (=white) in the area of Latinos, blacks and Asians is on the corner where my apartment building is. 

I don’t think people really understand just how evil the Nazis were, and just how normal that evilness was in humanity in general

Luckily for us all (including the Germans), they were also insane and kind of dumb and bad planners in a way.  There were fighting a two-front war (four if you include Africa and the Balkans) and in the midst of all that implement a very resources intensive program for the Final Solution. Yes, they got the slave labor but the sheer manpower (personpower?) and resources needed to implement the Final Solution doesn’t seem like an optimal use of those things.

Comment #69: Henry Holland  on  12/22  at  01:55 AM

Comment #69: Henry Holland on 12/22 at 12:55 AM

Nutella’s link to the integration map app at the NYT had me chuckling.  I punched in my zip code 90057 and one of the very few green circles (=white) in the area of Latinos, blacks and Asians is on the corner where my apartment building is.

I’m not sure the locations of the dots within the tracts are meant to represent anything.  I think they just use the number of dots in the tract to represent the population, and color them to represent the ethnic ratios in each tract, but the location and color of each dot is otherwise random.  For example, I don’t think there are multiple families living in the horse track in my town…

Comment #70: sacundim  on  12/22  at  02:46 AM

A little “not so bad” perspective, from the Firedoggers: http://firedoglake.com/2010/12/21/highlights-from-haley-barbours-not-that-bad-1960s-mississippi/

Comment #71: 3letterjon  on  12/22  at  10:48 AM

I can’t speak for anyone else from the UK (or the US, for that matter), but growing up on both sides of the Atlantic was very eye-opening for me.  The British racists hide behind their “plucky” resistance during WWII and fail to acknowledge their racism when it comes to “them” moving into neighbourhoods which might as well be segregated, for all the white people that actually live there, and the US racists keep a vision in hteir heads of a Christianity that puts them at the forefront of everything - Bill O’Reilly saying that liberals are trying to break down the “white male power structure” being a perfect example.  On both sides (perhaps not surprising, since the English took over in the US), the genocidal nature of their “nation-building” is carefully erased in favour of a vision of a power pyramid where rich white men are always at the top (their women are allowed to share in the privilege, but only because they sold themselves to the highest bidder).

I was taught to look at what the English did (hell, they did it to their own kingdom, in Scotland, Ireland, and Wales) and see it clearly, probably as a result of my mother trying to steer me away from her racist mother (who also thought that women should never have been given the vote - no wonder my mother was a feminist and a humanist) and her ideas of white supremacy - nothing as obvious as saying the n-word, but a generalized contempt for every person darker than her own lily-white hue.  I volunteer at a living history museum that talks about both slavery and the impact of the colonists on the local Indian tribes, and it’s remarkable how many people get uncomfortable at the idea that their shining city on the hill came into being on the backs of other nations and races.

I get really angry when self-professed liberals try to minimize racism, since they’re supposed to be on the side that’s fighting against it, but I continually underestimate the desire of white people to elide their own past.  I’ve had some good conversations with people who simply weren’t taught to think about racism in its subtler forms, though - and I really don’t think “why isn’t there a White History Month” is a funny joke at all.

Thanks, Amanda - I rarely write comments here (though I read every day!), and never this long, but this post was really, really good.  I remember you writing before about the South and the Civil War, and it was eye-opening - I had been taught (I went to HS here, Uni in the UK) the line that the causes of the CW were “complicated”, just like a lot of my generation, and seeing the historical documents quoted was awesome.  I always felt the Southern celebration of the CW was icky, and now I can counter it.  So thanks.

Comment #72: attack_laurel  on  12/22  at  11:47 AM

Which would you fight over? The U.S. government had already displayed a willingness to pay for land but no such desire to pay for enslaved human beings.

A deeply ignorant comment.  Lincoln’s prewar support for compensated emancipation was exactly what motivated seccession.

Comment #73: rea  on  12/22  at  01:01 PM

The really stupid thing about secession is that it wasn’t even about the fact of slavery. Slavery was constitutionally protected and there were 17 slave states (meaning even with 50 states there aren’t enough free states to ram a constitutional amendment down the slave states’ throats). It was about ancillaries to slavery—getting freed slaves returned and expanding slavery to the territories.

Comment #74: shargash  on  12/22  at  04:49 PM

Is Holocaust Denial a goal or an event?It’s neither.  It’s a deliberate strategy.  In Lying about Hitler it’s very clear that David Irving shaves a bit off here, adds a bit here to try and minimize what the Nazis did and maximize whatever he can find that Jewish people might have done——if you accept his interpretation of his sources. Barbour might claim, for example, that he misremembered or something, but it’s funny how he only forgets the stuff that makes him look racist.  The parallels between any group of denialists and any other group are pretty striking;  they all do the shave-and-add routine wherever they can.  When you see both together, it’s unmistakable, but even when you see just one you have to figure it’s not in good faith, which is why anybody railing about how black people are more criminal, or women are getting more violent, (but men and whites are just misunderstood) is just being a bit more subtle than the rest.

Sundown Towns is a really good argument against the claim that racism is worst in the South.  I forget the author, though.

Comment #75: ginmar  on  12/22  at  07:08 PM

Piator?  No.

They damned well intended to get there from the start.

Can you demonstrate they had a coherent plan prior to the Wannsee Conference?  Even then, the plan they came up with was to work the Jews to death rather than simply shovelling them into camps.

To quote Wikipedia:

Developments in early December, 1941, disrupted the original meeting plans. On 5 December, the Soviet Army began a counter-offensive in front of Moscow, ending the prospect of a rapid conquest of the Soviet Union. On 7 December, the Japanese attacked the United States at Pearl Harbor, causing the US to declare war on Japan the next day. To fulfill its obligations under its Tripartite Pact with Italy and Japan, the Reich government immediately began preparing to issue a declaration of war on the US on 11 December. Some meeting invitees were involved in these preparations, and Heydrich postponed the meeting, with no rescheduled time, on 8 December. In early January 1942 Heydrich sent new invitations to a meeting to be held on 20 January. The German historian Christian Gerlach sees in Heydrich’s postponement the exploitation of an opportunity to broaden the original objective. Götz Aly writes: “The postponement followed, one could assert, the political confusion that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor had caused. But Gerlach substantiates with convincing details that the originally planned Wannsee Conference had an entirely different theme than that which actually took place six weeks later. It had only been anticipated to discuss problems that occurred with the deportations of the (Greater) German Jews… Only after Hitler’s speech of 12 December was Heydrich able, as Gerlach shows, to broaden the theme and fix a conference on the ‘Final Solution of the European Jewish question’.”[13]

To treat the Holocaust as some sort of incomprehensible anomoly is a serious mistake, IMHO.  Appreciating the anatomy of how a people came to such evil is a guard against similiar processes haoppening again (or, perhaps, a way of identifying when they are happening again).

Comment #76: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/22  at  08:16 PM

Again. No.

Deleted a more verbose response, because that last one doesn’t deserve it.

Comment #77: shah8  on  12/22  at  08:32 PM

With hatred that all-encompassing, one doesn’t really need a plan. One just needs a catalyst. Like Hitler.  Mein Kampf is a pretty good demonstration of what he wanted to do.

Of course, I’m sure there’s an undiscovered document out there, in Hitler’s handwriting, that says, “MY BIG PLAN TO EXTERMINATE THE JEWS. CHAPTER ONE:”...and so on.  The steadily-escalating persecutions of the Jews are pretty damning, too. 

I can’t believe we’re having to argue whether the Holocaust was planned or not.

Comment #78: ginmar  on  12/22  at  08:52 PM

Knowing that that same government was going to free said enslaved human beings and you would be out of a shitload of money is why southerners committed treason.

Before the civil war, this was not realistically going to happen.  There were some attempts at “compensated emancipation” to free slaves and pay the slave holders, but it went nowhere.  The south didn’t just mind losing money, they were deeply committed to slavery as a system of social organization.

They were also kind of paranoid, and extremely controlling.  The fact that the rest of the country managed to elect a president that they didn’t want to was the immediate trigger.  (Democracy is only worth following so long as you get what you want, after all.)  They weren’t happy with a Federal government that they didn’t dominate.  And once they had seceded it took a while for them to turn it into a shooting war, over Fort Sumter, while negotiations were still underway.

Comment #79: wnoise  on  12/22  at  09:21 PM

@Comment #67: Josh on 12/21 at 10:55 PM

On the Northern racism front—am I right that MLK said he was never so frightened before as when he lectured in Chicago?

As a lifelong liberalish Chicagoan, I gotta say that Chicago’s reputation for deeply held, but semi-hidden, racism, is extremely well deserved.

Comment #80: atheist  on  12/23  at  02:35 PM

The North is, and always has been, every bit as racist as the South, but it’s always been slightly different.  Racist attitudes in the North were always, going back to the Civil War, the province of the working class who feared the freed slaves would take their jobs, in much the same way the Mexicans are taking Americans’ jobs now.  The upper classes, who regard(ed) themselves as superior to everyone else anyway, were the abolitionists.  Kinda makes me wonder if it was just about cheap labor for the textile mills in New England.  These attitudes have remained, passed from one generation to the next - even as some of these families worked their way up to the moneyed class.  It has been transferred to each new wave of immigrants as they come in.  The Portuguese, the Italians, the Irish, the Blacks, all engaged in a great circle jerk of resentment, while the English reap the rewards.  There are hosts of local exceptions, but that has been the general run of history in New England.

Comment #81: Geeno  on  12/23  at  04:10 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.