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Next entry: One more reason the term is “anti-choice” Previous entry: The Different Types of Not-A-Feminist Women

Misogyny and terrorism

Crime

I've been a little surprised at how little analysis there's been in the mainstream media regarding Andres Breivik, the Norway terrorist, and his views on women.  Man Boobz has been covering the story heavily, and David wrote about it for Shakesville.  Hugo covered it for the Good Man Project.  Sarah Posner tackled it for Religion Dispatches. But in the mainstream media, the focus has been solely on how Breivik was a rabid Islamphobe, which is of course really important, but this is also a good time to explore the intersections of anti-feminism, anti-immigration sentiment, the Christian right, and racism.

So I was stoked to see Michelle Goldberg take this one on at The Daily Beast, because there's just too little attention paid to how much misogyny fuels Christian right and other white nationalist terrorism.  Michelle, as is her custom, nails it, pointing out how Breivik was consuming a steady diet of mainly America, British and Canadian media---the language of the far Christian right is English.  Breivik's obsessions were so American, in fact, that not only did he obsess over "Sex and the City" in his manifesto, but he name-dropped Ellen Willis right next to Simone de Beauvoir.  Now, I'm someone who would put those two together, but Willis is, as as Michelle notes, a relatively obscure American feminist, known to feminists for sure, but not an icon like Betty Friedan, who Breivik also denounced.  (Her daughter Nona was understandably unnerved by this reference to her mother.)  It's obvious to me what Breivik's beef with Willis was---she's the woman who invented the term "sex-positive feminism", and Breivik was especially against sex positivity.  

This whole thing is a reminder that while secular types think of feminism's relationship with sexual liberation as complicated, as far as the Christian right is concerned, feminism is a movement that exists solely to make it hard for conservative men to marry and make babies with submissive virgins.  Everything goes back to feminists' supposed desire to encourage lacivious behavior amongst women, which is why they all seem to think the most important feminist text of the late 20th century is "Sex and the City".  Now, obviously that's my entire purpose in life, but I can safely say other feminists are interested in things like equal pay and whatnot.  

All jokes aside, what was remarkable about Breivik's views on feminism and Islam is that they're indistinguishable from the everyday rantings of anti-feminists and Islamaphobes in the media, many of whom get paid handsomely to spout the same shit that Breivik did about "demographic winter" and other paranoid fantasies.  What's also interesting to me is how widespread on the right the notion is that women's sexual liberation must mean that men lose something.  They perceive, rightly I think, that women's growing freedom has meant that men have higher expectations put on them not to harass and abuse, but I personally don't see that as a loss for men.  Being able to deal with women sexually as equals has a lot more potential for men, in terms of pleasure, but that's clearly not a message that's embraced by the masculinist right that Breivik was following so closely.  Breivik, sounding very much like an MRA, complained specifically about how women have more "erotic capital" than men, whatever this means.  Unsurprisingly, when someone posted his rants on a "men's rights" forum and passed them off as something written by a regular contributor, the writings were praised and upvoted until the ruse was revealed.  

It's hard to know what really to do with the understanding that Breivik---whose attorney is probably going to call "insane"---was actually more of a lucid conduit of right wing ideas than, say, half of the people sending me garbage on Twitter.  Obviously, most people who spout this garbage aren't going to go shoot up summer camps full of teenagers whose main crime is being generally supportive of liberal social and economic policies.  

But there's definitely a strong link between misogyny and violence that can't be denied.  Misogynists are far likelier to be violent people than non-misogynists, which is why rape and wife-beating are such common crimes.  (Domestic violence is the number one cause of injury for women 15-44.)  All bigotry provokes violence at its ends, of course.  This isn't the Oppression Olympics.  But misogyny and violence go hand in hand so often because misogynists really buy deeply into the idea that women are weak and men are "strong", by which they mean aggressive.  A steady drumbeat of misogynist thought couldn't be better designed to reach the unhinged and cause them to lash out violently, all while imagining themselves to be big, tough men who claim they were forced---with "why did you make me do this?" being the battle cry of wife beaters---into violence. 

Which is why it was so foul that Ross Douthat basically argued E.  In reality, these kind of masculinist postures just breed more violence, both in the widespread sort, but also every day behind closed doors, between individual misogynists and the women they encounter in their social circles, families, and even bedrooms. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:05 PM • (95) Comments

Being able to deal with women sexually as equals has a lot more potential for men, in terms of pleasure, but that’s clearly not a message that’s embraced by the masculinist right that Breivik was following so closely.

For most men this is definitely true, but I think I understand why MRAs and even Nice Guys would perceive it differently.  When women have freedom of choice, they choose men who aren’t foul, and, in a world like that, how’s an MRA going to get his dick wet?

Comment #1: keshmeshi  on  07/27  at  09:18 PM

Most MRA’s have never had anything resembling good sex.  I think that’s a big part of their hatred for life and devotion to stupid ideals at the expense of living.  Not enough connection to the things that can make life a joyous enterprise.

Comment #2: Punditus Maximus  on  07/27  at  09:27 PM

When women have freedom of choice, they choose men who aren’t foul, and, in a world like that, how’s an MRA going to get his dick wet?

That’s definitely true, but of course when you say “foul” I assume you mean personality-wise. And that’s the crux of it. Sexist men feel entitled to pussy no matter how unpleasant they are to be around, so rather than examining their own behavior, they blame those uppity women for daring to make their own choices.

But really, Amanda’s whole point about relationships based on equality and freedom of choice being better for men is true, but only for non-sociopathic men. And patriarchy really brings out the sociopathic tendencies in some men, because it gives them a group of people - women - that they feel entitled to possess.

Comment #3: Triplanetary  on  07/27  at  09:39 PM

I’ve been a little surprised at how little analysis there’s been in the mainstream media regarding Andres Breivik, the Norway terrorist, and his views on women.

No surprise - he’s a white right-wing Christian terrorist, not a brown Muslim one. Of course they’re going to ignore him as much as possible.

Comment #4: Geocrackr  on  07/27  at  09:43 PM

Argued E? Did Douthat create such a logical blackhole that it can only be described using irrational numbers? :p

As soon as they said “gunman attacked a Labor Party youth camp” I realized that this was not AQ but rather a right-wing ideologue who had decided to “do something about” the leftists in the country. And it’s hardly surprising that this guy had a beef with women, racism and sexism go great together because when you begin worrying about who the dominant skin tone of your country is, you tend to start getting pissy that the women of your preferred skin tone aren’t putting out enough babies of said skin tone.

The media has changed very dramatically in the last 20 years. When McVeigh bombed the Murrah Federal Building, the second that dead baby was snapped in the arms of the firefighter the right wing militias lost all legitimacy and support from the mainstream. But the extreme right wing also learned a valuable lesson about presenting “the other side of things”—so now, when Breivik guns down a bunch of helpless kids at a summer camp, you have shit like

a) Fox news refuses to acknowledge that Breivik is a Christian, (and they stand by it),
b) They also refer to him as a domestic extremist rather than a right-wing extremist,
c) Glenn Beck basically insinuates that the victims had it coming because they were the Hitler Youth.

If anyone tries to point out the cultural significance of what this person did in such a calm, rational, calculating and methodical manner, the back-up plan is to simply declare “well, he’s crazy.” As if mental illness makes a person a complete cypher, whose actions can not reflect and are not informed by their culture (and particularly their media consumption). Yes, there are some people who are just completely unintelligibly insane, but this guy weren’t one of ‘em. So instead of having a discussion about the price we pay in a culture that stinks of violent political rhetoric (and let’s face it, most of it coming from the right), we get to have discussions about what constitutes “crazy” and where the line between “crazy” and “evil” should be drawn, and whether or not a terrorist can understand what they’re doing is wrong.

And of course no one is going to touch the fact that he’s a flaming misogynist to boot, because misogyny is one of the dirtiest words you can say on television (unless you’re mocking the very concept that men can hate women). And if those previous discussions didn’t get the crazy card on the play, bringing up his attitudes toward women certainly will.

Comment #5: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/27  at  09:46 PM

Well-put, Mighty.

When Muslim terrorists are as calm and lucid as this guy, no one even mentions mental illness.  It doesn’t even occur to people.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/27  at  10:15 PM

  I’m going to argue that there Brevik’s misogyny is not being focused on because it was the least important motivator for his actions. Misogyny was probably not really that important of a source of Brevik’s rage.  Brevik’s rampage was caused at his belief that European civilization was in decline and he directed it towards those he believed responsible for that decline, European center-left politicians. He certainly didn’t seem to care that much about the genders of the people he murdered. Brevik is a xenophobe and racist. He is a misogynist to but I really think that was not the motivation for his actions. 

  *I never understood the demographic fears of the European far right via Muslim immigrants. There are hundreds of millions of White Europeans and only twenty million or so Muslim Europeans, half of whom live in either France or the UK. Even if they have a slightly higher birthrate, there is no way that they could every outnumber non-Muslims in Europe. Than again, the European far right used to fear the Judaizing of Europe and the demographic logic behind that was even sillier. 

Comment #7: Lee  on  07/27  at  10:16 PM

Of course women’s sexual liberation means men lose something.  If women can have sex without having children, men lose control over women’s sexuality.  That’s why it’s called sexual liberation.

Being able to deal with women as equals (sexually or otherwise) means that men have lost the ability to automatically be women’s superiors.  It’s a huge loss of status to have half of the population move up in rank to compete with you in the hierarchy.  The more people you can keep below you, the higher your rank will be.  With racism, sexism, nationalism, etc. you have a great way to move whole demographics out of the running as long as the people you gang up with can enforce the hierarchy you create.

Comment #8: Nimravid  on  07/27  at  10:18 PM

  Mighty Ponygirl at 5: I think the British blog Harry’s Place has the best analysis of Brevik’s Christianity.

  http://hurryupharry.org/2011/07/27/anders-breivik-the-bnp-and-crusader-christianity/

The short version of the argument is that Brevik isn’t a Christian in the sense that he believes in the basic doctrine and creeds of Christianity or that he is a regular church goer. Rather, Brevik sees the decline of Christian belief in Europe as symptom and symbol of European decline itself. When most Europeans were more actively Christian, European civilization was in full flower and strong.

Comment #9: Lee  on  07/27  at  10:22 PM

I always find it interesting (scary) that all these Reichwing groups — radical Christians, radical Muslims, Teabaggers, and so forth — are so much alike in so many ways, their shared misogyny just being one facet.

The Glenn Beck “Hitler Youth” comment was beautiful.  He’s advocated for summer camps where American youths are indoctrinated in Reichwing, detached from reality, beliefs, just like the fascists did.  If you laid out basic Nazi talking points, most wingnuts would agree with every one of them, except for naming Jews and Slavs as natural enemies of the German Volk.  Substitute “libruls” for Slavs (Jews can remain as enemies for most of them, as long as you keep it on the DL) and they’d eat up every part of it.

The only thing these people won’t accept is actually being called “fascists” — they loudly blame both Socialism and Fascism on liberals/Democrats (along with bad breath, the common cold, the rising cost of oil, shitty TV, and every other ill humanity faces).  Otherwise they’d be all for it, right up to the Kinder, Küche, Kirche they all agree are women’s only legitimate roles in human society.  It’s one thing (of many things) that brings all these disparate radical “conservatives” together…

Comment #10: MikeEss  on  07/27  at  10:29 PM

Punditus:

Most MRA’s have never had anything resembling good sex.  I think that’s a big part of their hatred for life and devotion to stupid ideals at the expense of living.  Not enough connection to the things that can make life a joyous enterprise.

I don’t know about MRAs, but today I was thinking about the people I really enjoyed having sex with (sorry, slow day.)  The single factor was that they all enjoyed sex too.  It’s so bleeding obvious:  you have good tennis with people who enjoy tennis, good hiking with people who enjoy hiking, etc.

It doesn’t matter if you are an MRA, a foot lover, a model-dater, etc:  sex is most fun when you enjoy it for what it is; if sex is your way of achieving something else, it just won’t ever be super-fun as an activity.

Comment #11: gorobei  on  07/27  at  10:56 PM

Lee, to believe that, you have to ignore 50% of the “demographic winter” theory that blames white women for not reproducing.

Since he actually attacked mainly white Christians who he considered race traitors, I think your minimizing is inappropriate and doesn’t fit the facts. I’d probably agree with you if he terrorized a group of Muslims, but he went after the people he blames for “letting” Muslim immigration happen.  In his own words, feminists are the main culprits in this theory.  I wouldn’t say he killed indiscriminately, either.  Victim reports indicate that he singled out the most beautiful girl in the camp to be killed first.

Let’s talk about you. Why is it important to you that we don’t look at how misogyny worked in conjunction with his other bigotries to motivate his actions?

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/27  at  11:15 PM

Nim, I honestly think for the average man, being superior to women isn’t as great as it’s made out to be.  It means getting housework done for free and your ego stroked, but the price is pretty high.  I think a lot of men have embraced feminist evolution because they enjoy being less lonely and more sexually fulfilled, which is the result of having more equitable personal relationships with women.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/27  at  11:17 PM

Bigotry inevitably leads to a bodycount, and that includes bigotry against women.

Comment #14: judybrowni  on  07/27  at  11:25 PM

Although the blond, blue-eyed, 6-foot-tall suspect would appear to be the Nordic physical ideal, a childhood friend said Breivik couldn’t make it with the ladies.

“He has never had a girlfriend, as far as I know,” the friend told the Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet.

Breivik even underwent plastic surgery in the U.S. to improve his chances of landing a girlfriend, the pal said.

Comment #15: ema  on  07/27  at  11:56 PM

“I never understood the demographic fears of the European far right via Muslim immigrants. “

I grew up in an odd Methodist church.  Mostly harmless, but among the odder things taught in the church was that Jesus could be coming Any Day Now.  I remember summer camp discussions about Revelation (and this was years before anyone had heard of the Left Behind series.)

Russia’s not looking so how as an Anti-Christ candidate these days.  Jews are the traditional group for crazy people to hate but, according to the script I got from the End Times Soon people, they’re supposed to rebuild the Temple before Armageddon (Last Time Now views may vary wildly from group to group; consult a doctor before trying to make sense of this sort of stuff.)

If Russia is out, the Jews are needed by prophecy, and the End Times are supposed to be Real Soon Now, Muslim Terrorists are probably have to be the group to go to for all your Armagedeonny Boogeyman needs.  (Never mind that Muslim Terrorism brought us the would be terrorist who couldn’t blow up his shoes.  They’re going to get Magical Satanic Competence any day now.)

Comment #16: Gilded Spork  on  07/28  at  01:07 AM

For someone with an authoritarian/hierarchical viewpoint, it’s an obvious plus to automatically be in the upper half of the hierarchy and it’s worth a price.  But I honestly believe that for the average man, being superior to women probably is pretty good (even if it’s not as great as it’s made out to be.)  If it wasn’t that great, I’d think there would be less resistance to change.  I might do a lot at this point just to get the free housework, I don’t know what I’d do if higher pay, ego-stroking, and all branches of government plus media catering to my sex were also on the table.  I guess it’s possible I’m easily corruptible, but didn’t they do a study a while ago where they told brown-eyed kids they were smarter and better, and turned the whole classroom into monsters oppressing the blue-eyed kids in a matter of days?

Comment #17: Nimravid  on  07/28  at  01:13 AM

Re: Nimravid

Well, it wasn’t a study (it was a third grade lesson for one class), the brown-eye/blue-eye lesson was done by Jane Elliott ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott )

Comment #18: Gilded Spork  on  07/28  at  01:22 AM

@Gilded Spork: that’s the one.

@Amanda, to me, the right is defined by their hierarchical/authoritarian viewpoint.  For many men with that viewpoint I’m sure equality for women is perceived as all loss and no benefit to them, and I think it’s framed that way by the right because it’s genuinely the way they think.  Because women having sex without being punished or controlled because of it is a threat to the current power structure, and keeping the current power structure intact is pretty much what the right is all about.  You’re absolutely right about the threat of violence implicit in misogyny.  Nobody is calling it out in this case of terrorism because it’s an accepted and common viewpoint, and probably because it’s the threat of violence in all of these anti-woman, anti-immigrant diatribes that helps keep people from stepping out of line and trying to change things too much.

Comment #19: Nimravid  on  07/28  at  02:44 AM

This is a bit OT, but why the hell is every rabid anti-feminist absofuckinglutely OBSESSED with Sex and the City??  I mean, yeah, it has sexy single women sleeping around, but what show doesn’t?  And it been off the air for, what, like 8 years? 
Amanda, I’d love to read a post by you about the continuing hold of SatC on the right wing mind, I think there’s a lot to unpack there…

Comment #20: nico  on  07/28  at  03:52 AM

These atrocities are always carried out by macho macho men, so it should never be a surprise that they have issues with women. They always think that the world is about to end because of the sins of their neighbors and the dangers from within and without.

It’s a little harder to understand why these fears are so popular. Sure, picturing ourselves as living in the End Times makes us special, but why these specific threats? Feminism isn’t a threat because it’s been successful; women have always been a threat to macho macho men because they have a magical power to invoke an involuntary response despite heroic efforts at self-control. (Eek! An erection! The saints always hated that.)

In political discussions we wonder why the right wing wants to revert to the economic policies of the Gilded Age, capitalism red in tooth and claw. The theocrats would be happier yet in the Middle Ages, not realizing that they’d be likelier serfs than knights.

Comment #21: bad Jim  on  07/28  at  05:06 AM

  Attn Amanda: Point. I agree that misogyny is an important part of Brevik’s murderous rampage and it should be talked about. However, in Brevik’s case my opinion is that that it formed background rather than foreground reasons for his terrorist act. I base this on who he decided to murder, members of the Norwegian Labour Party. Brevik does blame white European women for not having enough babies but he directed his rage at center-left politicians and young people who wanted to be center-left politicians. My interpretation of this is that this means that Brevik saw the causes of what he thought was wrong as primarily being political.

  Another way to put this is that Brevik hated Jews to. He wrote in his manifesto that the only reason that Europe doesn’t have a “Jewish problem” is because there are only a million Jews in Europe and 80% of them live in France or the UK. This clearly implies that if there were more Jews in Europe and the Jewish population was more evenly dispersed than Brevik would see Europe as having a “Jewish problem” in the same way that he now believes that Europe has a “Muslim problem.” Yet, focusing on Brevik’s Jew hatred would be the least important thing you could focus based on who Brevik choose to kill. And I say this as a Jew who thinks that not enough attention is paid to anti-Semitism. 

  Attn Gilded Spook at 16: Thats not quite what I meant. The main fear of the European far right is that non-White Europeans in general and Muslim Europeans in particular in general are going to soon outnumber White Europeans. This is impossible demographically. Obviously, people on the Far Right latch unto a boogymen but I still don’t understand the demographic fear.

Comment #22: Lee  on  07/28  at  06:42 AM

I honestly think for the average man, being superior to women isn’t as great as it’s made out to be.  It means getting housework done for free and your ego stroked, but the price is pretty high.

All of that is true, however I think you are underestimating the high that supremacy gives some people.  It can be very addicting.  Take the major slave holders in the antibellum south.  Slavery caused massive inefficiencies in the actual production of cotton.  Just one minor example; plows had to be made three times as strong as their northern equivalents, because slaves had a habit of breaking things their masters owned. 

All in all, the southern aristocracy would have made a lot more money by using sharecroppers or hiring seasonal help.  But if they had done that it would have cost them their supremacy.  Not only over the slaves, but over the poor white farmers who were marginalized by the plantation system.  They liked pretending they were Cavaliers out of some bad Walter Scott novel. 

Taking it back to the topic at hand, I think the same desire for supremacy infects a lot of men.  Yes, the sex would be better and life would be more fulfilling if they treated the women in their lives as equals.  But they would much rather be Roger Sterling than Barrack Obama.  Their motto is a twisted parody of 1 Corinthians 13:13:  And now these three remain: faith, hope and supremacy. But the greatest of these is supremacy.

Comment #23: prufrock  on  07/28  at  06:50 AM

I was recently in a discussion with a right-wing apologist who was upset that anyone might connect Breivik’s right-wing ideology with his violence.  I asked him a simple question: short of actually bombing and shooting people, where do you disagree with him?  Where does he go off the rails?  I didn’t get an answer.

Ross Douthat pulls the same thing.  He reminds us how, when you confine yourself to isolated quotes, you can find similarities between some things said by the Unabomber and Al Gore… but he can’t seem to offer one point of disagreement between his beliefs and Breivik’s - apart, presumably, from the whole “mass murder is bad, m’kay” thing.

Comment #24: DaveL  on  07/28  at  07:00 AM

The Norwegians already have us beat in the aftermath-of-violence department.  Their head of state is saying that this will only lead to MORE openness, MORE democracy, MORE of EVERYTHING Breivik hated.  Compare that to the US response to terrorism (either completely ignore it in the case of domestic terrorism or turn around work hard as hell on gutting our freedoms in the case of foreign terrorism).  I only wish we could have reacted in the same way, with a lot more introspection.

By the way, I know we ask this a lot, but at what point how many “lone gunmen” have to attack and kill masses of people before our collective governments decide to start looking at our homegrown terrorists and the culture of hate that breeds them, especially here in the States?

Comment #25: speedbudget  on  07/28  at  07:05 AM

Nico @ 20: I think it’s the name.  Will and Grace has single women getting laid AND gay men who aren’t flaming, but it doesn’t have ‘sex’ or ‘homo’ in the title so you have to actually watch the show to know that.

Comment #26: Jayn Newell  on  07/28  at  07:30 AM

Lee, the question is why are you minimizing?  At no point did I dismiss his overt Islamaphobia.  But his rabid misogyny is a major part of the equation, and people who spread this shit around really need to think about what their misogyny sounds like to the unhinged. 

Breivik himself credits his misogyny for who he is.  He says upfront that his supposedly feminist upbringing and the rejection of it is what started him on this path. 

Also, the “demographic winter” thing was started by anti-choice fanatics who were looking for a way to peddle anti-choice hysteria to Europeans, who don’t have the same streak of sex panic that leads to anti-choice legislation here.  So they latched onto blaming white women and abortion for Muslim immigration, and voila! They had a hook.  You’re minimizing the impact of anti-feminist thought on this guy.

So why are you playing the Oppression Olympics?  Why is it important to you to minimize the way that misogyny can influence the unhinged towards acts of violence?

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/28  at  08:10 AM

All of that is true, however I think you are underestimating the high that supremacy gives some people.  It can be very addicting. 

I don’t disagree.  I’m not underestimating that.  But sexual satisfaction is a uniquely compelling motivation that, once you taste it, is really hard to give up.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/28  at  08:12 AM

Lee, it’s interesting how the people who are so quick to dismiss that Breivik wasn’t a “real christian” are the same people who will say shit like “Muslims attacked us on 9/11” and have to basically have a fire lit under their ass in order to admit that the vast majority of Muslims in the world are peaceful and nonviolent.

Just as with Islam, there are people who identify as Christians in a tribal, racial sense. Most Americans who identify as Christian don’t actually go to Church all that often. And it turns out the 9/11 hijackers weren’t exactly the most observant Muslims—considering how many of them went to strip clubs and the like on the eve of the attacks. But we don’t give them that careful treatment. I wonder why that is.

Comment #29: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/28  at  08:39 AM

Also, Breivik might have hated women because they weren’t birthing enough Nordic babies to fight off the brown, ululating hordes, but seeing as how he actually believes that his actions will be the spark that sets off the cleansing fire of anti-islamic revolution in Norway, it would be pretty stupid for him to go and gun down a bunch of women—after all, dead women can’t birth babies.

Comment #30: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/28  at  08:42 AM

One of the worst crimes of kyriarchy is that it stunts the imaginations of people who buy into it.  They become unable to conceive of a relationship that doesn’t involve domination in some sense.  The key link between anti-feminism and and anti-immigrant sentiment is that they both depend on viewing society as a zero-sum game—in order for one group to gain in influence and respect, everyone else has to lose.  If women gain more freedoms, they must be taking them away from men; if immigrants get jobs and homes, they must be stealing them from natives.  If you’re not on top, then you must be on the bottom.

Comment #31: David Paul  on  07/28  at  08:48 AM

Ah, I see Jon Stewart and I are on the same page. smile

Comment #32: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/28  at  09:03 AM

  Amanda: I do not think that I am downplaying Brevik’s misogyny, I just place it in a different part of his thinking than other people with different interpretations of Brevik’s worldview. I admit that I coul turn out wrong regarding this but based on what Brevik did and what we know from his manifesto, he seems to view what is wrong with Norway/Europe as being primarily a political problem that could be solved with terrorism/political violence rather than a societal problem. My opinions on Brevik could be wrong but that is how I’m interpreting him based on the evidence.

  Might Ponygirl: I don’t think that the blog post I’ve linked to is arguing that Brevik isn’t a real Christian, nor am I arguing that. What I think is wrong is calling Brevik a Christian fundamentalist because his approach to Christianity is different than the Christian fundamentalist/evangelical approach. The closest analogy would be to the Neo-Nazi groups that embrace Norse paganism without really believing in Oden and company. Brevik mourns the decrease in belief in Christianity in Europe because he thought that when Christian belief was higher than Europeans were more assertive and assure of themselves. He doesn’t believe that the Bible is 100% literally true, which is the basic belief of Christian fundamentalism. Nor does Brevik seem to want the laws/morals of his European utopia to be based on those presented in the Bible, which is a big part of the Evangelical approach. Rather, Brevik desires wider belief in Christianity as a way of fostering his version of European identity. He also seems to be a too into High Church Christianity to qualify as a fundamentalist.

  speedbudget: Considering that wide swaths of the American public likes to indulge in moral panics once a decade or so, it is not surprising that our response to terrorism is more immature than the Norweigian response. There are a variety of complicated and simple reasons behind this.

Comment #33: Lee  on  07/28  at  09:19 AM

But sexual satisfaction is a uniquely compelling motivation that, once you taste it, is really hard to give up.

I completely agree.  However, what if a given man’s sexual satisfaction is rooted in supremacy?

Wait, that’s rape.  Never mind.

Comment #34: prufrock  on  07/28  at  09:19 AM

The only person to use the term “fundamentalist” in this discussion is you, Lee.

A fundamentalist Christians is a particular type of Christian. It would be as stupid to label him a fundamentalist Christian as it would be to label him a pentecostal. But you cannot escape that he identifies as a Christian and that his ideology was radical and tribal.

Comment #35: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/28  at  09:28 AM

I agree that Breivik’s misogyny has not had much media attention, and that’s important, because misogyny is often overlooked or seen as unimportant in the context of other extremist actions. That said, I agree with Lee that Breivik’s misogyny is not his prime political/social drive. Breivik hates women, and Jews, and Muslims, and people who aren’t white, and anyone else who he thinks threatens his vision of the Perfect Nordic Society. But the people he blames are the Norwegian centre-left*, the Scandinavian political establishment which has been extraordinarily successful** over the past sixty years in building up societies that, though they have their faults, are generally streets ahead in terms of equality on all fronts compared to societies anywhere else in the world. His plan was to destroy the Labour party, by wiping out its youth leadership, and the iconic figure of Gro Harlem Brundtland. Oppression of women in order to outbreed the Muslim Hordes is part of his scheme as a means to an end, but disgusting as his views are, they don’t seem to me driven by the visceral loathing of women and sexuality seen in the US rightwing.

(I don’t agree with the article on Breivik not being a Christian fundamentalist. That seems to me to rely on a very specific meaning of fundamentalist that isn’t universally applicable. Breivik is a self-identified Christian extremist, and the fact that in a European context rather than a US one this hasn’t taken the form of young earth creationism doesn’t mean that his Christian nationalist identification doesn’t tie in in the same way to an extreme nationalist white supremacy everything-was-better then picture that aims at the same goals. After all, US Christian fundamentalists aren’t actually fundamentalists in that they follow the Bible literally, as evidenced in their stereotypical fondness for polycotton and general coveting of their neighbours’ everything.)

Comment #36: Nineveh  on  07/28  at  10:31 AM

Oops.

*Centre-left in a Norwegian context, that is.

**With the help of well-spent oil money.

Comment #37: Nineveh  on  07/28  at  10:32 AM

  Nineveh, that is a very decent criticism of the article. The entire argument of whether Brevik’s Christian fundamentalist or not depends on how much importance a person gives to the meaning of words. If you think that Christian fundamentalist refers to a very specific phenomena than you won’t see Brevik as one. If the term is used in a more general sense to any sort of Christian supremicist/nationalist than Brevik easily is one.

  The well-spent oil money only really applies to Norway. Denmark is a bit poor in natural resources and Sweden’s resources are wood and metals.

Comment #38: Lee  on  07/28  at  10:49 AM

Yes, I should have specified that oil was specifically Norway. Finland and Sweden have done similar things (Sweden with the advantages of being richer already, and being neutral in WWII) with other natural resources, and Denmark though it has achieved similar things has a different economic base, having the advantages of smallness, but the disadvantages of fewer natural minerals to dig up and trees to chop down. And then there’s Iceland…

Comment #39: Nineveh  on  07/28  at  11:23 AM

I don’t disagree.  I’m not underestimating that.  But sexual satisfaction is a uniquely compelling motivation that, once you taste it, is really hard to give up.

Two things:

1) They haven’t tasted it; they don’t like women enough to ever have tasted it. Ergo, they aren’t missing a damn thing, and
2) I honestly don’t think that’s as universal an attitude as you (or I) would like it to be. A lot of peoples’ priorities just aren’t structured that way. And hell, for a not-insubstantial set, sexual satisfaction is derived largely from coercion itself.

Comment #40: Well, what?  on  07/28  at  11:30 AM

Further rumination on #40 (sorry, I probably blasphemed too early).

I mean jeez, I’m a woman and a feminist, and yet, if someone said, “we’ll pay you more money and give you more power for the rest of your life, and you’ll have a partner who’ll do all your dirty work. Caveat: You won’t ever have good sex again”...well, I’d probably have a hard time turning it down. Sex just isn’t so important that I’d choose it over nearly every other significant aspect of my life.

If they offered me those things and implied that good sex and love was in fact part of the bargain, which is how our culture actually sells it, then there’s absolutely no reason I’d turn it down.

Now personally I know enough of psychology and anthropology to understand that no such deal could EVER pan out as promised, but I’m probably the exception in that regard, rather than the rule. Patriarchy may hurt men too, but they aren’t aware of it most the time. And in a lot of ways, it’s still way too sweet a deal for them to give up.

Comment #41: Well, what?  on  07/28  at  11:37 AM

Apparently Michael Kimmel wrote a piece on this for Sociological Images (which branched off into the misogyny of white supremacist culture), but as soon as I learned of its existence it got taken down for some unknown reason. I really wanted to read it. Shakesville also has a piece on it, although I know there is a rabid hate-on of the site among commenters here.

Breivik is bothering me more than any other recent attack like this, and I think that’s because of the reaction of MRA blogs (my boyfriend lives in Oslo but none of his friends or family were personally affected). As with what happened with George Sodini a few years back, it’s all “oh he was driven to do this by a culture that hated him and his sensible ideals”. Consider that the MRA and PUA blogosphere is what made these guys people with ideals (barely) differing from the mainstream. Consider your own responsibility in making them unhappy, douchewads. MRA communities are the single most concentrated force that gets disenchanted men to believe laughable bullshit like women having sex with men who aren’t them makes them oppressed. The likelihood of Breivik and Sodini feeling entitled to what they wanted without nutbars telling them it’s what they deserved is significantly lower. That’s because there isn’t any fucking force in society oppressing white dudes that they could have felt independently. It’s all on you, fuckwits.

Comment #42: Treefinger  on  07/28  at  12:06 PM

Lee, telling us oversensitive females that we should be considering the important things here? Say it isn’t so! Nice, I guess, to see he hasn’t changed.

Comment #43: Nobody in Particular  on  07/28  at  12:41 PM

Shakesville also has a piece on it, although I know there is a rabid hate-on of the site among commenters here.

Shakesville has plenty of brilliant, clarifying & eye-opening posts by both the regular contributors & the community.  One has to plow through plenty of intellectual condescension & hand-holding, Fat-Eartherism, etc. to get to the pearls, but the rewards are worth the hazards.

What fucks myself & others off about Shakesville is the self-indulgent habit of Shakers gatecrashing other people’s blogs and rhetorically gang-raping comment threads they don’t happen to like into the ground.

Comment #44: Smartpatrol  on  07/28  at  01:41 PM

rhetorically gang-raping comment threads

If you’re going to criticize the atmosphere on Shakesville, which has a lot to criticize, you might not want to make their point for them by using rape as a metaphor. Which is disgusting and misogynist in and of itself.

Comment #45: Nobody in Particular  on  07/28  at  02:00 PM

Anyone think it’s kinda inconsistent that Breivik dude was all “ZOMG!! Demografik Winterz!” and then he goes and shoots a bunch of white girls who would soon be entering their peak reproductive years?

As for hierarchy, I can understand the appeal if I won my position by my on talents and efforts. I’d feel pretty damn proud of myself. But I could not have the same satisfaction by simply being given power for reasons having noting to do with my efforts or unique nature. I get no enjoyment from the status points I get for free by being white and male. It’s not as much fun to win the race if your starting blocks were moved a little forward.

My need for position and status isn’t really that great, mostly I want good food, interesting work, and hot sex with a loving and trusted peer, and freedom. Whatever gets me these serves my interests, and the partriarchy just doesn’t have a lot to offer.

Comment #46: Bacopa  on  07/28  at  02:18 PM

I’m a woman and a feminist, and yet, if someone said, “we’ll pay you more money and give you more power for the rest of your life, and you’ll have a partner who’ll do all your dirty work. Caveat: You won’t ever have good sex again”...well, I’d probably have a hard time turning it down. Sex just isn’t so important that I’d choose it over nearly every other significant aspect of my life.

Yeah, good point. I’d find a way to like the sex I did get.

On the other hand, if offered the chance to be a selfish, hateful, unlovable asshole in exchange for unpaid domestic labor, I think a lot of us would turn it down. There’s something to be said for the peace of mind you get in the active pursuit of being a good person.

Comment #47: junk science  on  07/28  at  02:27 PM

You probably do think that you get no pleasure from your free status points—and maybe that’s true for you, but I bet it’s not for a lot of guys with unexamined privilege.  They’re born on third and think they hit a triple—it doesn’t occur to them that those points are unearned.  Plus, if you’re view of the world is basically zero-sum, you’re not going to welcome an improvement in anyone else’s status, because to your mind it necessarily means you’re losing something.  And you might not get a ton of pleasure, but you avoid a lot of pain—you get to live a life free of harassment and discrimination based on your sex or skin color.  I wouldn’t discount what’s in it for people to maintain the status quo, even if it does exact a cost (again, a cost they aren’t aware of—they don’t know they’re missing out on great sex or real companionship, or that the glorification of male aggression may shorten their lifespan or restrict their acceptable behavior).

Comment #48: Kit-Kat  on  07/28  at  02:42 PM

Anyone think it’s kinda inconsistent that Breivik dude was all “ZOMG!! Demografik Winterz!” and then he goes and shoots a bunch of white girls who would soon be entering their peak reproductive years?

I thought about that too—but I suspect in his head they’re already race traitors, and they posed a greater danger alive (as future labor party sell-outs) than gambling on the chance that they’d see the light and settle down to make more white babies. Hell, they might have been so indoctrinated into the anti-Norweigan/pro-Islamic philosophy that they would in fact pair off with some muslim man and have his babies.

Comment #49: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/28  at  02:54 PM

On the other hand, if offered the chance to be a selfish, hateful, unlovable asshole in exchange for unpaid domestic labor, I think a lot of us would turn it down. There’s something to be said for the peace of mind you get in the active pursuit of being a good person.

But as I said re: sexual pleasure, you can’t miss what you’ve never known. A person who’s never experienced the peace of mind of being a good person probably doesn’t consider it, abstractly, to be a good trade-off. wink

More seriously, you are correct—hardly anyone would consciously opt to be a selfish hateful asshole. But most “traditional” or quasi-traditional men (NOT Breivik and his ilk, NOT the MRA douches—just men who are not open to questioning the ideas of patriarchy) do not think of themselves as being hateful; indeed nothing in our culture except the reviled Feminism would EVER tell them that they are. To their minds, they do love the women in their lives. They just have no idea what real, actual love looks like. 

 

Comment #50: Well, what?  on  07/28  at  02:54 PM

Fat-Eartherism,

Bwahahahhahahahahh.

Comment #51: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/28  at  03:01 PM

nothing in our culture except the reviled Feminism would EVER tell them that they are.

That nasty feminism has a way of creeping up on people. And once you realize unexamined privilege is a deeply unsexy quality, you have to consciously choose to accept reality or deny it. Constant denial is uncomfortable, which is why MRAs have such huge bugs up their asses.

Comment #52: junk science  on  07/28  at  03:08 PM

To clarify, I wouldn’t call the average guy who has never examined his privilege hateful. He’s just a spoiled child who doesn’t know how good he’s got it, and children don’t spoil themselves. But once he does have his eyes opened for him and chooses to continue being a spoiled child, he becomes fully accountable for his actions.

Comment #53: junk science  on  07/28  at  03:14 PM

@Junk Science: It sounds like you know a lot of thoughtful, educated folks with ample exposure to the ideas of feminism and privilege. Lucky you. I also know several such people. It makes life hella easier, that’s for sure.

But I just don’t think too many people have anyone who ever tries to open their eyes. And indeed, they have instead many people with big, noisy platforms who are committed to stapling those blinders on everyone’s face, forever.

Comment #54: Well, what?  on  07/28  at  03:21 PM

(Is it becoming too apparent that I no longer think there’s hope for real improvement in the world? oops…)

Comment #55: Well, what?  on  07/28  at  03:30 PM

It sounds like you know a lot of thoughtful, educated folks with ample exposure to the ideas of feminism and privilege. Lucky you.

Well, no. Not nearly enough. Having a lot of gay friends helps, but we have the advantage of built-in oppression to rip the blinders off our eyes. I just wonder where all the Pandagon commenters are in real life.

Comment #56: junk science  on  07/28  at  04:11 PM

  Nobody in particular, just where in my posts did I say anything remotely like what you are accusing me of saying?

Comment #57: Lee  on  07/28  at  04:20 PM

Constant denial is uncomfortable, which is why MRAs have such huge bugs up their asses.

No kidding.  You’d think the cognitive dissonance of the effort it takes to maintain said levels of denial would make their heads explode, but alas…

@  NiP.  Oh fer…look, I’m using ugly, violent language to describe a violent, ugly practice.  I chose those words to hold a mirror up to the behavior the S-Ville Attack Drones indulge in far too often & throw it back in their faces.  If you’re going to do the Shaker Goon Squad’s job for them & police other people’s language, you’ll have to stop by Iris Chang‘s estate & let the folks there know what a disgusting, misogynistic person she was.

Comment #58: Smartpatrol  on  07/28  at  04:20 PM

Um, SP @ 58? Using the term rape to refer to actual rape isn’t a problem. (Or did you not read the book? HINT: it’s about rape.)

Using “rape” to describe mean comments on the internet, on the other hand, is fucking gross.

Comment #59: Well, what?  on  07/28  at  04:30 PM

Treefinger: Kimmel’s Sociological Images post is up. It speaks very particularly to how misogyny underlies violent far-right movements, and Kimmel has some serious personally accomplished research into it.

Comment #60: adit  on  07/28  at  04:42 PM

I just wonder where all the Pandagon commenters are in real life.

You know, I’d imagine we are in most places. I’ve seen commenters ID from all over, with a slight tilt toward the urban over the suburban or rural, but there’s a lot of that representation as well. Living in, for example, a major urban center is no guarantee that you won’t be neck-deep in privilege-blind people who are benefiting from patriarchal norms that they have pretty much never heard questioned.

 

Comment #61: Well, what?  on  07/28  at  05:10 PM

Well, what?, it is not simply “mean comments on the internet”, it is bulldozing into comment threads and bullying, intimidating, shaming, harassing, shouting-down & repeating ad nauseam & refusing to leave until the other participants have either been shamed into submission or left in frustration.  It is “fucking gross”.  It is a power-tripping silencing technique whose dynamics are quite similar to group sexual assault (submission & silence through shame &/ fear), but verbal instead of physical.  Which is why I used the word “rhetorical”.  The fact that verbal assault is touch-free doesn’t make it any less vile or disgusting.

Re: the book.  Wow,  I had NO IDEA.  I mean, I own a signed copy & have read it several times & the word was RIGHT THERE IN THE TITLE but it took your PATRONIZNG ADDRESS HITTING ME OVER THE HEAD to make it register.  I mean, “The Rape of Nanking” makes it sound like someone named “Nanking” was raped until it dawns on one that “Nanking” is the name of a city.  One could be left standing there like one o’clock half-struck trying to figure out how an entire city could be raped unless one realizes that the author was using the word as a metaphor to describe exactly what was done to the citizens of that city both individually & as a whole by a gang of people who invaded a space where they were not welcome & behaved in a vile, horrible manner, taking what they wanted, doing what they wanted to whomever they wanted & refusing to leave & bulling everyone there into submission becasue “fuck you, we’re on the right side of history & we’ve got the power & you don’t”...sounds familliar…

</off topic>

Comment #62: Smartpatrol  on  07/28  at  05:50 PM

What fucks myself & others off about Shakesville is the self-indulgent habit of Shakers gatecrashing other people’s blogs and rhetorically gang-raping comment threads they don’t happen to like into the ground.

...and it’s Shakesville for the win!

I honestly did not see that coming, as Smartpatrol started off so well in the first paragraph, what with the Fat-Earther jokes and all. But no, they came from behind at the last second, rushing right past the competition and through the finish line as he tripped over the word “gang-raping” and fell flat on his face.

It ain’t over till it’s over, people. That’s the lesson we learned today.

Comment #63: flea  on  07/28  at  06:22 PM

The fact that verbal assault is touch-free doesn’t make it any less vile or disgusting.

Except, of course, that it totally does.

Comment #64: flea  on  07/28  at  06:24 PM

Generally, if we’re arguing over semantics, the appropriate use of “rape” or whatever, it means one side has a point the other side doesn’t want to deal with so they’re focusing on word-choice. Just an observation.

I’ll return to lurking.

Comment #65: hockubs  on  07/28  at  08:04 PM

That’s not my experience.  Sometimes, an argument over semantics is just a cigar.

Comment #66: Punditus Maximus  on  07/28  at  08:11 PM

@ Smartpatrol
“the author was using the word as a metaphor”

Yes and no. The fact that actual, real widespread rape of the citizens of Nanking was one of the most remarkable and disgusting things about what happened there does make whether or not it was exactly a metaphor (a partial metaphor?) ambiguous. In any case, it was silly to bring Chang up as an example, because either way it’s possibly the least offensive one in existence. And I take your point, really, but the whole “got raped” metaphor is several levels grosser than saying “crazy” or “idiot” sometimes, which is one of the more legitimately silly things you can get jumped on for. As to why I mentioned it in the first place, I don’t see any reason to believe Shakesville in particular is supposedly more guilty of that than most other progressive/feminist blogs that aren’t Pandagon, so I wondered why it catches more ire.

Adit, cool beans, thanks for alerting me.

Comment #67: Treefinger  on  07/28  at  08:30 PM

The likelihood of Breivik and Sodini feeling entitled to what they wanted without nutbars telling them it’s what they deserved is significantly lower. That’s because there isn’t any fucking force in society oppressing white dudes that they could have felt independently.

I’m sure they still would.  It seems like the defining characteristic of the anti-social is to imagine that the world is out to get them, even when it isn’t.  Then there’s the shitty behavior and outlook on life which make people recoil from them, creating even more of a persecution complex.

I’m not trying to excuse MRAs, to be clear.  I just think they’re pouring gasoline over the flames, not starting the fire itself.

Comment #68: keshmeshi  on  07/28  at  08:48 PM

Hey dudes, be VEERY careful about using rape metaphors. To be safe do not use them at all. And especially do not use rape metaphors for something as trivial as a bunch of blog followers from one site showing up a another site to post comments. Call it “Troll summoning, Level 7” or something like that.

Rape is pretty serious, it should mostly be used to refer to more serious stuff, like rape, fore instance.

I’m not a big fan of the whole “trigger warning” trend. Seems to me most people can tell from the beginning of the post whether there are triggers below the fold, and for all I know, hitting the trigger a few times might be therapeutic. But to use “rape” as a metaphor for something mundane is not just a potential trigger, it is an infuriating trivialization of of a horrible experience many have gone trough.

Don’t Be That Guy. Google the slogan. It’s awesome.

Comment #69: Bacopa  on  07/28  at  09:08 PM

Amanda, this is going too far.  Claiming that all MRAs are Anders Breivik Behrings-in-waiting isn’t true.  How many of them have done stuff like this?  One (two if you count George Sodini, but that’s quite a stretch).  How many of them are there?  Probably something around two million in the United States alone.

All told, if you take all of Breivik’s anti-feminist rants and put them together, they come out to be a grand total of around two Microsoft Word pages in 12-point font with one-inch margins.  Considering that his manifesto was about 1500 pages long, that makes anti-feminism less than half a percent of his platform.  Most of it was anti-Islamic, anti-Marxist (which was what engulfed and fueled his anti-feminism, and caused him to target the Labour Party’s camp), and self-congratulatory.

I mean, really, what would you think of MRAs who blame Valerie Solanas’ attempt on Andy Warhol’s life on feminism?  They’d be grasping at straws, right?  Of course they would: Solanas suffered from paranoid schizophrenia.  Breivik was a disturbed, psychotic man, and even if the MRM had never existed, he probably would’ve done this horrible deed anyway.

Comment #70: Phil87  on  07/28  at  09:39 PM

Bacopa—Trigger warnings aren’t for people who don’t need trigger warnings. They’re for people who do. And the only person who can know if they need a trigger warning or not is that person. It’s online etiquette in feminist spaces.

If you don’t need a trigger warning, just ignore it. If you do need a trigger warning, you’re probably glad you’ve been given it.

Hitting a trigger can be therapeutic, but it has to be part of a process of therapy and not just an uncontrolled “oops, suddenly I’m reading about violent rape when I was just raped last week. I think I’m going to go slit my wrists now!”

Put another way, I have thankfully and blissfully not needed trigger warnings in my approaching 2 decades on the internet. But if tomorrow I was attacked, I would probably need trigger warnings for a while. Let’s say OnlineFeministA is another commenter and she was raped like, 6 years ago. She isn’t trying to deal with fresh trauma and has made a satisfactory rebuilding of her life and then some. She is free to ignore the trigger warning as I did last week. But right now, when my life is a big ol’ shit sammich and I’m trying to pick up a few pieces, the occasional trigger warning is going to help me out in a big way. I might need them for a week, a month, or five years. But it’s kind of nice to think that the online feminist community has got my back on this matter.

Comment #71: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/28  at  09:42 PM

#6 Amanda,
Yes they do mention mental illness for Muslim terrorism. It seems to be the go-to terrorist explanation used for terrorsts now-and-days. I’ll tell you what, I want to commit a crime to go to one of those nice spa, errrr Norwegian prison systems (just joking of course).

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gIIBjM01FteS_UVmmAIf3Os1WlFA

“Defence lawyers retorted that Abdi was “mentally disturbed” and had quit his previous posting as an air force pilot due to his mental illness.”

““He does not understand what he has done,” the defence said, requesting a referral for psychiatric tests”

Comment #72: Bean Slap  on  07/28  at  11:01 PM

Phil @70

A lot.

Oh sorry, you were minimizing.

Cause in reality, nearly every mass-murderer and terrorist has either belonged to groups espousing shall-we-say unevolved views on women or straight up MRA anti-feminist beliefs themselves. It seems to be one of the central requirements for being willing to engage in mass-violence as a political or social tool, which is why it’s a good thing if we talk about that once in a while instead of consistently writing these guys (and it is nearly always a guy) off as “lone whackjobs” or small-scale single-issue terrorists or “extremists”.

So, yeah, not every MRA is going to turn out to be a mass-murderer, but a significantly large cluster have been wife abusers and child molesters or have raised as heroes wife abusers and child molesters.

And the movement as a whole has a problem when the comments of this mass-murderer can be entered in MRA circles and be well received, not to mention the community’s rallying behind the “martyr” who set himself on fire because he was not allowed to force his company onto the daughter he punched.

And to the minimalists and to those like Lee who don’t understand why we would be focusing on the “minor” elements in favor of the more obvious, I’d like to point out the elephant in the room.

Intersectionality

That is, how one bigotry feeds on another and often combine or work together in the same way as multiple oppressions do in the lives of the oppressed.

The experience of racism or sexism or anti-immigration sentiments rarely are separate singularly-focused entities. Hatred of women can feed hatred of minority groups you see as “emasculating” which can further increase fear and hatred of women for “failing their demographic duty”. Fear of homosexuality can be based in fears of sex and fears of a disintegration of the “natural hierarchy” and can make you more frightened and aware of other “disintegrations of the natural hierarchy” like racial minorities getting uppity or religious minorities like atheism also doing visibility activities.

And all of these in turn can be expressed in political fears that the world you are used to is being stolen by unasked for change and the radical leftism of thinking of others as people.

The swamp runs deep.

In the case of Breivik, he states that his anti-feminism and MRA beliefs were what made him more aware of and more invested in his political and anti-islamic bigotries.

Further more, as we’ve seen in the ignored case studies of every mass murderer in possibly recorded history, the connection between anti-feminist beliefs and violence is one that we ignore at our own peril.

Especially since this incident and the growing exportation of American right-wing terrorist activities have larger been informed and tested against the non-population of women in the form of anti-abortion “activism” and attacks.

Those same tactics are now being seen as means of “solving” the problem of liberal politicians in much the same way of “solving” abortion doctors and for many of the same reasons including “emasculation” of our national character, soft, squishy emotions like caring too much for minority communities seen as “inherently dangerous”, and a general need to be “active”, “strong”, and “resilient”.

Obsessions over personal virility and a feeling one needs to prove themselves a man by engaging in traditional masculine activities such as violence for a cause have been huge pilot lights for the violence we see around us and if we don’t at least give a little attention towards that, we’re going to be ill-suited to address this problem in any way other than scrambling to put out fires after the fact.

Comment #73: Cerberus  on  07/29  at  12:29 AM

“The main fear of the European far right is that non-White Europeans in general and Muslim Europeans in particular in general are going to soon outnumber White Europeans. This is impossible demographically. Obviously, people on the Far Right latch unto a boogymen but I still don’t understand the demographic fear. “
How is it impossible? It’s already happening in America, after all.

Comment #74: Devonian  on  07/29  at  04:00 AM

IDK why you’d throw around “gang-raping” when there’s so many other great ways to describe terrible comments in threads.

trolling
threadshitting
garbageposting
pigpiling
smartpatrolling

Really the list just goes on

Comment #75: Dan  on  07/29  at  04:32 AM

Dan-

Or the more common and definitely more accurate term:

Dogpiling.

“Whenever I try to X, they dogpile me over shit from other threads.”

Or they could defend an inaccurate term that buries your intended meaning and minimizes an issue that the community in question cares deeply about causing inherent conflict that makes it difficult to have their points heard/respected.

Cause that’s just so much easier.

Comment #76: Cerberus  on  07/29  at  08:28 AM

Re. The Rape of Nanking, the book title uses the word rape in the sense of taking something (generally property) by force, first citation from 1350. The sense meaning sexual assault (and originally specifically sexual assault of a woman by a man) is first cited in 1425. Sense (1) has pretty much been overtaken by sense (2), but it still exists. The sense in which Chang talks about the rape of Nanking is not a metaphor, though the predominate modern meaning adds to the power of the older one in this instance. “Gang-raping comment threads” is a metaphor in a way Chang’s title is not, and a thoroughly nasty one at that.

Comment #77: Nineveh  on  07/29  at  09:39 AM

Lee @@57 - I would guess the following:
@ 7:

I’m going to argue that there Brevik’s misogyny is not being focused on because it was the least important motivator for his actions. Misogyny was probably not really that important of a source of Brevik’s rage.  .... He is a misogynist to but I really think that was not the motivation for his actions.

@ 22 responding to Amanda @ 12:

Attn Amanda: Point. I agree that misogyny is an important part of Brevik’s murderous rampage and it should be talked about. However, in Brevik’s case my opinion is that that it formed background rather than foreground reasons for his terrorist act. .... My interpretation of this is that this means that Brevik saw the causes of what he thought was wrong as primarily being political.

@33 responding to Amanda @27:

Amanda: I do not think that I am downplaying Brevik’s misogyny, I just place it in a different part of his thinking than other people with different interpretations of Brevik’s worldview. I admit that I coul turn out wrong regarding this but based on what Brevik did and what we know from his manifesto, he seems to view what is wrong with Norway/Europe as being primarily a political problem that could be solved with terrorism/political violence rather than a societal problem. My opinions on Brevik could be wrong but that is how I’m interpreting him based on the evidence.

The last was in response to why are you minimizing and dismissing the opinions the man expressed HIMSELF in his manfesto.  Because, you know, what he said about himself apparently is not evidence in your mind, or something.

Comment #78: helen w. h.  on  07/29  at  10:24 AM

@SP who is no doubt no longer listening (if, indeed, he ever was):

If you think that being “bulldozed” and “silenced” by what is essentially dots on a screen is even remotely on the same plane as having your actual physical body invaded, or for that matter, beaten, all while you wonder if this horrible thing is the last thing you will ever experience on this earth…you are either so damaged and fragile that you really ought to be hospitalized before you break down, or you are so fucking stupid that you ought to just shut the motherfucking fuck up, because you’re embarrassing humanity.

Comment #79: Well, what?  on  07/29  at  10:28 AM

Claiming that all MRAs are Anders Breivik Behrings-in-waiting isn’t true.  How many of them have done stuff like this?  One (two if you count George Sodini, but that’s quite a stretch).  How many of them are there?  Probably something around two million in the United States alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_Polytechnique_massacre

The École Polytechnique Massacre, also known as the Montreal Massacre, occurred on December 6, 1989 at the École Polytechnique in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Twenty-five-year-old Marc Lépine, armed with a legally obtained Mini-14 rifle and a hunting knife, shot twenty-eight people before killing himself. He began his attack by entering a classroom at the university, where he separated the male and female students. After claiming that he was “fighting feminism”, he shot all nine women in the room, killing six. He then moved through corridors, the cafeteria, and another classroom, specifically targeting women to shoot. Overall, he killed fourteen women and injured ten other women and four men in just under twenty minutes before turning the gun on himself.

Comment #80: keshmeshi  on  07/29  at  03:43 PM

@Cerberus haha nah I mean dogpiling is the classic but pigpiling is a popular alternative in many circles! It much better evokes the feeling of a poor posting pileup, I feel.

Comment #81: Dan  on  07/29  at  05:16 PM

keshmeshi—calling back to my original comment, when faced with Marc Lepine’s actions, the media narrative was very quick to either a) dismiss him as a crazy cypher whose actions could not be legibly traced back to his ideology (false) or b) place the blame on women (his mother, the women of the school, some mean ol’ feminist he met once and made him mad) (false). At no point did they simply review what he did, his stated purpose for what he did, and the political and cultural landscape that surrounded what he did and come to the conclusion that maybe there’s a cultural bias against women and a tendency to excuse violence against women.

Comment #82: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/29  at  11:13 PM

Mighty Ponygirl at #71.. I know what trigger warnings are for, I’ve just seldom seen them used when they would make a difference. Usually it’s clear above the fold that there’s likely a trigger. And some sites, like this one, don’t use them and things sometimes get heavy here. Perhaps in cases where’s there’s no hint of triggers, trigger warnings should be used. Anyway, I don’t have a dog in the fight about most of the things trigger warnings are about, so why did I even mention this? And I never advocated that trigger warnings should NOT be used.

Dan at #75

I already proposed that “Troll Summoning, Level 7” be used as the appropriate metaphor. I like your choices, but mine is better. PZ already uses the term “Pharyngulating” for rushing an online poll.

I will be seeing PZ and Dawkins at the Texas Freethought Convention. I hope that Hitch will be healthy enough to receive his award in person. And please, my fellow Houstonians, be cool in the elevators. I will not be riding in the elevators myself as I will be commuting in for the events, not that I think a come on in the wee hours of the morning in an elevator totally out of the blue is the best way to break the ice. Come on people! Why was RW’s video so controversial?  Who could not figure this out, or see what what was up if they didn’t already know this?

Has anyone thought to get Jim Parsons (aka Sheldon Cooper) to the convention? The site is just two min and ten min from The Alley and Stages Rep where he got his start in acting.

Comment #83: Bacopa  on  07/31  at  01:15 AM

Well I see this sort of as an issue of two wrongs dont make a right. Anders story of his Muslim friend who cheered after enemy fire hit allied fire would be upsetting (though not enough to go AWOL). However I see this as a Right-wing versus Right-wing sort of thing. The Muslim right wing that riot over cartoons, assassinate feminists, and have very conservative views that seem to get deeper over generations along with the misogyny, homophobia and theocracy always seem aimed at liberals. It was Theo Van Gogh who was executed and Hiirsi Ali had to go into hiding. Liberals, not a mosque attendance were killed in this case as well. I also see it as two wrongs dont make a right. This doesnt erase the Muslims slate clean. The recent bombing in Russia killed 100 (and I didnt see any comment here about the Muslim right wing) and sharia law is still allowable in Britain and the comments by the Muslim Association that when Britain became more “civilized” they would push for the more orthodox version didnt go away just because of one lone terrorist (BBC).Remember we still cant draw Muhammed but Jesus is still acceptable. I see it as Right wing versus Right wing pissing competition with liberals as the casualties. The example of how many right-wing Americans agreed with Anders entiments seem a little disengenuous as they could do the same thing with environmental terrorism.I also find it disengenuous that when a Muslim in Britain does this sort of thing you dont write about it. There has never been an article on the hijab or burqa and its implication of rape culture and double standards. The heel and vaginoplasty has been more dicussed. Seriously, read this shit (next post), its creepy.


One extremist doesnt get others off the hook and I have a hard time believing in Islamophobia as a real thing. Usually they use it as an excuse to try and censor people. Black and whites dont serve anybody.

 

Comment #84: Bean Slap  on  07/31  at  04:07 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/sharia_1.shtml

“I think Muslims generally are shocked by the general lack of respect and discipline here, especially if they are immigrants and not born here. They are particularly shocked by lack of discipline in schools and the difficulties faced by so many teachers in getting children to behave in class and actually learn.
They are shocked by the appalling rates of theft, drunkenness, drug addiction, sex outside marriage, abortions, rape of children and old ladies, homosexuality - especially when it is being put forward as quite normal and an acceptable alternative sexual lifestyle; homosexuals in positions of authority (from teachers to MPs).”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576066/We-want-to-offer-sharia-law-to-Britain.html

“Despite this, Dr Hasan is open in supporting the severe punishments meted out in countries where sharia law governs the country.Even though cutting off the hands and feet, or flogging the drunkard and fornicator, seem to be very abhorrent, once they are implemented, they become a deterrent for the whole society (now it is law)”

“In fact, Sheikh Mogra argues that sharia in Britain would give rights to women. “A Muslim man can take a second wife under sharia law and treat her as he wants, knowing that she has no legal rights in Britain. It means that she is regarded as no more than a mistress and he can walk out on her when he wants.”

“A survey by Policy Exchange found that 36 per cent of young British Muslims believed that a Muslim who converted to another religion should be “punished by death”.

“Today, Izzadeen, the self-styled ‘Director for Waltham Forest Muslims’, will march with his supporters — many of them new young recruits to Islam — as part of their campaign to make the suburban borough into Britain’s first Sharia-law zone. Under his brutal set of rules, there would be a ban on alcohol, gambling, drugs, music, smoking and homosexuality, as well as on men and women mixing in public”

“He says Muslim women have also been threatened with violence for not wearing burkhas”

“Mr Craig says he believes the campaign for Sharia zones has more widespread support among Muslims than the authorities are prepared to admit. ‘I would like to think that the campaign is orchestrated by extremists, and is only supported by a small group of their followers; but I fear that it is not the case.’

“A recent poll by research organisation ICM of 500 Muslim families revealed that 40 per cent supported the introduction of the strict religious code in Britain.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4749183.ece

“ISLAMIC law has been officially adopted in Britain, with sharia courts given powers to rule on Muslim civil cases.The government has quietly sanctioned the powers for sharia judges to rule on cases ranging from divorce and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence.”

“Siddiqi said that in a recent inheritance dispute handled by the court in Nuneaton, the estate of a Midlands man was divided between three daughters and two sons.The judges on the panel gave the sons twice as much as the daughters, in accordance with sharia. Had the family gone to a normal British court, the daughters would have got equal amounts”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197478/Sharia-law-UK—How-Islam-dispensing-justice-side-British-courts.html

“The Islamic Sharia Council is listed as a charity but people seeking a divorce, or talaq, must fill in a form and pay a fee. For a man it is £100; for women, it is £250 because the imams say it takes more work to process a woman’s application as her word has to be corroborated”


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality

0% tolerance of homosexuality in Britain. There is also other troubling news about Muslims in Europe such as rising anti-semitism.

Comment #85: Bean Slap  on  07/31  at  04:08 AM

phil87,
Well Solanas wasnt a feminist. She also shot Andy Warhol not because he was a man but because she thought he had stolen her manuscript which was going to make her “millions.” She also said her SCUM Manifesto was a literary device not a literal one and admitted there were no SCUM groups. Originally she was planning on shooting her book publisher, but he was on vacation. She was also a schizophrenic, a woman in the 60’s and beaten/sexually abused by males. You cant say that about Sodini.

Comment #86: Bean Slap  on  07/31  at  04:12 AM

Also after Sodini killed these women there were lots of congrats by MRAs which was covered at Alas a Blog. You can see the MRAs responses to the shootings here:http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2009/08/06/mens-rights-activists-anti-feminists-and-other-misogynists-comment-on-george-sodini/

A taste:


“George Sodini is an MRA hero as much a reason to learn game. Finally a mass murderer writes a relatively coherent manifesto. Could be better, but at least it is implied that feminism is to blame and he is taking a last stand. I had been waiting for this (almost thinking I had to do it myself) and I am impressed. Kudos.

Women are treated much better than men in America. This is merely the blowback from feminism.

Women have to accept this incident as a tax on their freeloading. Women get men to buy them drinks, dinners, and bridezilla weddings, all in return for virtually nothing. Once in a while, a few women get shot up. Given the $500 billion a year that women mooch off of men each year, that is a relatively small tax to pay.

…he had every reason to lash out at the society that screwed him over and make its denizens feel some of the pain that they had inflicted on him. There are millions, tens of millions of men in this country who have been deceived in a similar fashion, and there are numerous Sodinis amongst their ranks who will react violently and murderously once they uncover the truth.”

  It was also mention at pandagon(http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/these_crimes_dont_happen_in_a_vacuum/). You shouldnt forget the Amish school shootings and the Platte Canyon high school shooting.

Comment #87: Bean Slap  on  07/31  at  04:19 AM

@Bean Slap

There were far, far more feminists congratulating Lorena Bobbitt for the horrid act of violence she committed against her husband.  They celebrated it like nothing else.  They hailed her as a feminist hero.

And for the record, she really wasn’t raped by him.  When she was arrested by the police, the first justification she gave was “He was selfish.  Whenever we had sex, he would always pull out before I came.”

What was the public’s reaction to that horrible incident?  They laughed and guffawed.

Also, you need to stop acting like only men do stuff like this.  Ever heard of Amy Bishop?

Comment #88: Phil87  on  08/01  at  01:29 AM

<off topic>
Apologies for posting off topic again, but some shit you don’t have to sit still for.  Bacopa, Treefinger, Nineveh, Cerberus, I’ll post a response here & anyone who wants to comment on the phrase “rhetorical gang-rape” can do so at the same location.  I knew that using such a phrase was taking a risk, but the 1st step to dealing w/ a problem is to call it by it’s proper name.

Now then…

@ 88:  Would you like a little cheese with that whine?

@ 75: Danny, Danny, Danny.  You stayed up all night & that is the best you could do?  Pity.

@ 63: Yes! Win! *high five* Another comment thread rhetorically gang-raped into submission, successfully punished for dealing with a topic we didn’t like, without our permission and for going in a direction we didn’t approve of.  So, *cleans blood of teeth* who’s next? </flea>

FTR I wasn’t aware that this was a contest, but someone smarter than I once pointed out that the easiest way to spot the one who’s lost the argument is to look for the one who declared victory first.

@ 65:  Nailed it.

you ought to just shut the motherfucking fuck up, because

Piss on you and the parochialism you rode in on, Mrs. O’Reilly, & you may change your online handle from “Well, what?” to “Duh?“.  If you really think - if you’re truly convinced - that rape is confined to a physical act, you haven’t been paying attention: it is an ugly, toxic power dynamic that has many different manifestations & degrees, none of which diminish the seriousness of the others, all of which grow out of the assumption of entitlement to other’s time / space / energy that fuels rape culture, which itself is a key component of the culture of violence.  People who engage in it know exactly what they’re doing in the same manner that the 4am Elevator Proposition Pigs know exactly what they’re doing.  I don’t expect you to understand what I’m talking about, but I understand your tantrum.  Ignorance is bliss, & I’m harshing on your buzz.

If you’re absolutely confident that online verbal assault is just “dots on a screen”, then I have a proposition for you & flea: go knock on the front doors of the homes of the parents of Alexis Pilkington, Megan Meier, Ryan Halligan & Tyler Clementi and repeat verbatim what you said @ 79.  Tell them it was all just “dots on a screen”.  Call them & their children “fragile” & “fucking stupid”.  Do the same for Kathy Sierra.  Being the generous type, I’ll be more than happy to cover the cost of your hospital bills &/ funerals.

Comment #89: Smartpatrol  on  08/01  at  02:14 AM

Phil87 @88:
feminists were congratulating her?  My, you are a moron.  Feminists would have wanted her to be able to leave without having her life destroyed (metaphorically and economically) rather than kill him.

Comment #90: helen w. h.  on  08/01  at  10:31 AM

I don’t think Anders Breivik is an anti-semitist (or strongly against gays or many other oppressed groups)—at least he is not a clear case:

http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/07/26/norway-terror-accused-breivik-on-the-jewish-question/

“Despite the Crusader lineage to which he aspires, however, Breivik has no intention of driving Jews from Europe,  much less from the Holy Land. On the contrary, his manifesto hails Zionist Jews as a crucial ally in his battle between Christendom and Islam, proclaiming Israel as the frontline citadel in that war. Breivik’s Crusade would have Jews on board for an existential fight against Islam; the mirror image of the “Crusader-Jewish” alliance that Osama bin Laden vowed to drive out of what he defined as Muslim lands.

In his rambling history drawn from a range of Islamophobic sources, Breivik paints a picture of Christians and Jews (and also Hindus) as fellow sufferers under Muslim oppression through the ages. He soft-pedals around the uncomfortable fact of Crusaders killing Jews, insisting that in the limited instances where such events occurred, they were the work of renegade bad apples.
Nor does he evade Hitler’s Holocaust; he simply says the Fuhrer was wrong about the Jews:”

It is worth to remember, that nowadays most islamophobes are friend of Israel. One reason for that is the fact that many Zionists (eg. MEMRI propaganda videos) openly spread propaganda against Muslims, so they have common enemy.

But I think it is worth to member that Anders Breivik has taken parts from left, right and many different kind of movements to his manifesto. And his demands that government should resign and he should be pointed as the leader of the military are so ridiculous that he must have some kind mental illness. No rational and sane extremist would think that after this kind of terror attack, he would be offered the leadership of the military.

Comment #91: Friend of Truth  on  08/01  at  12:16 PM

Lee, why do do think that it is “impossible demographically” that Muslims outnumber white Europeans? Of course it can’t happen within generation, but if the higher birth rate of Muslims continue for several generations, it is mathematically inevitable outcome. And the constant flow of immigrants from Muslims countries accelerates this progress.

Of course it is possible that in the future Muslim birth rates drop to the same level as whites, but if that does not happen (and if Muslims don’t convert to other religions in large numbers or something other as drastic happens), then Muslim majority will be inevitable outcome.

Comment #92: Friend of Truth  on  08/01  at  12:27 PM

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Comment #94: chenchen  on  08/03  at  05:34 AM

Of course it is possible that in the future Muslim birth rates drop to the same level as whites, but if that does not happen (and if Muslims don’t convert to other religions in large numbers or something other as drastic happens),

As a minority reaches parity in class and income, it inevitably has a decline in the children to family ratio(I don’t speak sociologese, can you tell?), as the greater resources are used for less children which in return means a greater chance of overall success than having 7 or so and hoping that one or two of them can achieve enough to help the siblings down the line. 

The primary exception to that are those who have a high income and can support multiple kids, as in my great-grands’ family on the Monk side, or make do because of their religious views and in the Chinese phrase, “Eat bitter.”

Comment #95: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/03  at  06:34 PM
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