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Next entry: Hurting Runs Off My Shoulder Previous entry: Bang Bang Boogie

Missive from sinner’s row

Feminism

Kate Harding and Jessica Valenti both have pieces up defending themselves for marrying, and about the difficulties of crafting a feminist wedding, which are apparently the same exact problems trying to craft an individualistic wedding, which is a mandate that comes down on people just as hard as the one to conform, which creates the industry of everyone copying everyone else’s cute unique touches.*  I enjoy going to weddings, but have to say that as a guest to many, I think that what really impresses people is if you have good food, a good bar, and if you can get people to dance for hours at your wedding, that matters more than almost anything.  But I digress—-both Kate and Jessica talk at length about how merely deciding to get married means patriarchal creep into your lives.  Jessica found herself taking on most of the planning, and Kate found that even eloping didn’t mean she got to escape the horrible wedding beast.

While Valenti and I and our respective menfolk have made a lot of similar gestures toward having less screamingly anti-feminist wedding celebrations, at the very least—e.g., skipping any paternal delivery of bride to groom, keeping our names, encouraging guests who ask about gifts to donate to a charity working toward marriage equality—I know I’ve already capitulated to tradition a whole lot more than I expected to. I was planning to wear a blue dress for the reception, but then, all of a sudden, nearly white sounded kinda good. I started out with a “Screw etiquette—it’s not like our friends and fam would buy any pretense to elegance from us anyway” attitude, only to lose it when I realized I’d had envelopes printed up with both abbreviations and spelled-out words in the return address.

That’s the problem with trying to craft a feminism of personal solutions, where you police and guilt everyone about capitulation to patriarchal norms instead of tackle the underlying social structures that suck people into the vortex.  Still, personal solutions do have some appeal, because modeling different behaviors can influence society, piece by piece.  Which is why I’m a fan of just opting out, though that brings its own problems, not the least of which is that most people don’t really understand the opter-outer, and explaining yourself can often come across as judgmental and rude, even if you don’t want it to.  One of my first cousins got married recently, and he was the first of that particular generation (we all grew up within a bike ride from each other) to have a real wedding, and to make the whole situation odd, he’s the youngest of us who is really a working adult (the other three are in high school or college).  I’m the oldest, which means that I’m both the first person in my family to graduate college and to make it to 30 without getting married, but I suspect in the next few years I’ll be joined by others in the 30-and-unmarried club.  By and large, my family doesn’t seem to give a shit about this, but having an actual wedding drew out some minor pressure in the form of questions, and in one case, being made to go stand with would-be bouquet catchers against my stated wishes.  (I grabbed another cousin’s long-time girlfriend on the way and was like, “If I have to do this, so do you.”  Her reply: “But I’m not single!”  Well, neither am I.  So we started sinner’s row in the back—-the few, the proud, with their arms by their side behind teenage girls crawling over each other for the bouquet.) 


After this, I told Marc that I sort of sympathized with family members who would like there to be more weddings to go to, because they’re fun and our once-geographically-close family needs reasons to come together, and certain members who can be counted on to have crowded dance floors, in the unlikely event of a wedding, were especially ripe pickings.  He suggested that we could have an un-wedding, and I sort of thought about it for a second and then was like, maybe in a few years, but I’m not entirely sure I’d enjoy explaining why an un-wedding to my family.  As it is, few people will happily accept, when they ask why you aren’t married, that you’re not the marrying type.  Even an un-wedding makes me break out a little in hives, because while I’d like to believe I could make that fun and not at all fall into the pressure to say that this changes or legitimizes anything, it would be hard not to fall in that trap.

I’ve got many feminist reasons for not marrying, the sorts of things Kate and Jessica are referring to, but the main thing that makes me uncomfortable about marriage is the way it functions to put the stamp of social approval on love.  Obviously, many people crave this.  Jessica:

But never underestimate the power of being in love. Andrew is fabulous and I want to be married to him - due in no small part to the fact that he also identifies himself as a feminist and that an equal partnership is just as important to him as it is to me.

Which is great, and I certainly understand that worldview, especially if starting your own family is important to you.  For me, sexual love’s very appeal is that it creates a space of resistance to the enormous pressures to conform and comply.  It’s possible for married couples to see their own relationships that way, of course, but it takes one more step.  Living in sin without moving towards marriage helps me keep my life in this place of resistance where I’m most comfortable.  To illustrate instead of just jab near what I’m saying, my personal wariness dates back to when I was in high school and a friend who was a few years older was getting married had her bridal shower.  As she was opening her color-coded gifts, her older sister “joked” about how no one throws you a party to celebrate you if you’re a single woman who struck out on her own and resisted the social pressure to define yourself as Mrs. Something Or Other.  She was right.

There’s a reason that wedding planning falls on women’s shoulders, and it’s not just that women are always stuck with that kind of organizing and socializing work, though that’s part of it.  It’s also because we still get that it’s the bride’s big day, the most important party in her life.  And the achievement celebrated is getting a man to commit to you publicly, which our culture pretends is hard to do even though marriage is loaded up with privileges and benefits for men specifically that lead them to live longer lives and even make more money at work, because they’ve got someone at home taking on so much of the daily work to get through life for them.  When people talk about a feminist wedding, they mean one that celebrates your love more than the bride’s accomplishment in finding a man.  When they say that it’s hard to have a feminist wedding, I suspect part of the problem is that you can’t really get others around you to consent to seeing this as egalitarian as much as Bride’s Big Day.  The pressure is so extreme that I sometimes choke when I mention having a relationship with a man at all, not because I’m not blissfully happy with my situation, but because I know that relationship will define me more in the eyes of many than my talents, opinions, or accomplishments.

This is part of the reason that same-sex marriage is such a major league threat to conservatives.  Same-sex weddings don’t have the person with power and the person whose status was elevated by being chosen.  So you’re stuck with celebrating their love, and that’s going to have an influence on how straight weddings are understood. 

I’m certainly not dissing people who want to get married.  Having your love celebrated and legitimized is a powerful thing.  Unfortunately, it’s also the thing that makes me uneasy about weddings, because the piece of paper means more than the relationship itself.  Abusive marriages, marriages where the couple chose each other out of desperation but don’t really like each other, marriages caused by unintended pregnancy that will fall apart when they realize that isn’t enough to build a relationship on, trophy wife arrangements—-all these are considered more legitimate by virtue of that piece of paper than the relationships of non-married couples, even those who have long-standing, strong, and passionate relationships that everyone else would envy.  That bugs me.  And the solution of simply getting married and getting a piece of it yourself doesn’t do it for me.  And it’s not just because some people can’t.  Even when gay marriage is legal and uncontested in all 50 states, it will still feel wrong, to pressure people to get the paper to get the esteem.  For those of us who feel that it’s an encroachment on our carefully staked out individual identities, for those of us who are burned by a lot of exposure to divorce, for those of us who know that making official will introduce weirdness into our lives we don’t want, for those who have unorthodox support systems including platonic relationships that count more than sexual ones—-the whole system is really unfair.

Again, I want it to be 110% clear that I’m not saying anyone who marries is wrong or a bad person.  My critique is of the system, and the way that it creates a hierarchy of relationships built on paper and custom instead of the quality of relationships.


*For instance, the first time I heard about a “unique” father/daughter dance that involves hilariously breaking from a slow dance to a fast one, I laughed and thought that was actually pretty unique, but a quick perusal of YouTube shows that whoever thought of it first has seen the practice sweep the nation.  It’s adorable, of course, but falls short of the individuality mark. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:39 PM • (69) Comments

I really get what you’re saying here - however, one thing that I think is being forgotten is that sometimes marriage is actually a necessity to, say, be included on an insurance plan, or something like that which, while bullshit, is something you have to comply with if you actually want to both be able to go see a fucking doctor.

I love my partner in crime, I’m glad to have married him, and I planned on spending my life with him anyway, but I am resentful that this was a decision made out of sheer financial necessity rather than because we would have done it independent of this influence.  The company he works for will cover gay couples (which is awesome) but not domestic partners of opposite gender (which is silly, but I would guess common). 

I mean, as egalitarian as you can try to make it be, ultimately, you can’t always have partners with two equal incomes and equal earning potential and equal access to something as fundamental as healthcare.  It sucks. 

Again, I am really, really not saying I didn’t want to do this - I wouldn’t have done it if I hadn’t wanted to, and the same goes for him - but marriage wasn’t something we were particularly intent on doing in the beginning, and it’s stupid that we had to do the legal song and dance in order to have “legitimacy” that, really, is present in our commitment to each other, regardless of legal status.

Comment #1: INTPagan  on  04/24  at  08:27 PM

We didn’t do the “Introducing for the First Time Mr. and Mrs. Husband’s Last Name”  b/c I couldn’t decide if I was taking his name or not.  We had our band leader introduce us as “The adorable couple”.

It took years for me to decide that I am who I am and it’s not Mrs. Husband’s Name, even if I have ended up being a SAHM for the better part of a decade.  I had quite a few years of “Ms. Caren MyName HisName” but his name, being in last place, was considered the “real” one, especially by credit card companies and insurance companies.

Except I never did a damn thing legally.  Legally, I’ve always been me, and lately, I’ve dropped his last name completely. 

Etiquette-wise, I am “Mrs. HisFirstName HisLastName” but no one has ever addressed me as such.  I answer to “Mrs. HisLastName” b/c the kids all have his last name (that bit of patriarchy didn’t bother me so much, but my own name, which I always liked?  Never really wanted to lose it.)  I also answer to “PreschoolerName’s Mom” and there’s no patriarchy involved there.

Otherwise, I had the uber-traditional Nuptial High Mass (though I planned the Mass and avoided both Genesis and Paul entirely—bring on the Song of Solomon!)  Afterward we told all our Jewish friends they’d been converted.  Reception was the Downtown Chicago Hotel Party with Live Band.  It was a good time. 

Traditions can be fun, and there’s something special about making a big promise in front of your friends, family, State, and God.  Something that people of any gender identification/sexual orientation should be able to share, b/c damn it, they have long-term relationships and they should be celebrated.  It’s NOT just a piece of paper; and it shouldn’t be mandatory for a successful long-term relationship, but if people want to do it, nobody has a right to tell them no.

Comment #2: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/24  at  08:30 PM

To be completely honest, I got married when I did so that I could get more financial aid for college and not have to list my parents’ income on the finaid forms.  Granted, we did plan on getting married eventually, probably… 

I outlawed bridal showers before my wedding by informing the bridesmaid who was most shower-happy that there would be bloody vengeance on anyone who violated that dictum.  Even just fifteen years ago that statement was pretty shocking to people.  I also kept my name, and no matter how often my mother’s family addresses everything to Mrs. MyHusband, that isn’t going to change the fact that I am still Ms. MyName. 

The thing that most seems to bother people outside of my marriage, is the fact that I have always been the one who makes more money, and he has the job that is more of a “hobby.”  There is a lot about our marriage that is non-traditional.  We had a pagan hand-fasting, we’re not strictly monogamous and fairly open about it…

However, I did have a Spaying shower when I got myself fixed a couple of years ago.  Unfortunately, we never did get the damn uterus shaped pinata completed.  But I got trashy novels, slippers and comfy jammie pants for lounging in after my surgery.

Comment #3: GeekGirlsRule  on  04/24  at  08:43 PM

Unfortunately, it’s also the thing that makes me uneasy about weddings, because the piece of paper means more than the relationship itself.

Argh.  I have to admit, the “it’s just a piece of paper!” argument has become very irritating to me.  I have a LOT of pieces of paper that are very important, like my car title.  Paper is how we keep track of things.  When you’re forming a contract with another person—which is what marriage is—you want it on paper to prevent later shenanigans if things go wrong.  If you’re going to be mingling finances with another person, having a piece of paper is important to protect YOUR OWN interests.

People can argue that their own relationships are above silly, petty things like mortgages and insurance and healthcare decisions, but that only works until you break up and realize that since you’re not married and not on the mortgage, you don’t have a roof over your head.  Or if, God forbid, your significant other ends up in the hospital and you have to spend two hours tracking down his legal next of kin so he can be treated.  Things are better now than they used to be, but there are still a whole host of things that are a pain in the neck to accomplish if you don’t have that piece of paper.  For a lot of things, getting married is one-stop shopping.

Which is why I’m all in favor of gay marriage—if people want to form a legal partnership that includes the specific rights and responsibilities of marriage under the law, it’s not my business which consenting adult they want to sign that contract with.  Telling them that marriage is “just a piece of paper” misses the point by about a hundred miles.

Comment #4: Mnemosyne  on  04/24  at  08:50 PM

The problem with being “anti” is that you still end up having a wedding being dictated by tradition.  Some tradition is worthwhile, some isn’t, and some is merely coincidental.  The tough part is figuring out what you really want.

Marriage isn’t “just a piece of paper” - it is the formation of a legal family corporation which confers certain rights of partnership but also entails responsibilities of partnership.  It isn’t about a human relationship - that part is up to you and your partner.

Comment #5: Ms Kate  on  04/24  at  08:57 PM

btw, you don’t have to have a legal wedding - my sons attended preschool at the home of a couple who were married in Judaic law, but not under state law (they eventually did legally marry to get health benefits and custody issues regarding their adopted children sorted).  This was as they wished to live, until the legal complications were best simplified through legal incorporation.

Comment #6: Ms Kate  on  04/24  at  09:00 PM

Not going to go into details of my wedding except to say that it was done under protest; being of different nationalities, if we wanted to live in either country together and work legally, we had no choice.

I never stopped telling people that I had not wanted to get married, that I only did it because I had to, that I find marriage a patriarchal abhorrence, that there is no way to stop traditional gender roles from taking over to some extent or other. But everyone still believed that since I did it anyway, this was all just big talk; that my feminist ideals went out the window the minute a man asked me to marry him (he didn’t, but never mind).

Recently my sister told me that our mother had remarked to her that yes, you see, TheLady had always said that she didn’t believe in marriage, but even she got married, so it must be a fundamental need that all women share, even her.

She was talking not about my existing marriage, but about a future marriage she imagines I must still crave once my divorce from a man who turned out to be abusive, and whom she now despises, is final.

The slightly convoluted point I’m tying to make is this: no amount of saying you don’t believe in the patriarchal ideal, having a low key civil ceremony, wearing a black dress and refusing to change one’s name away from “Ms MyName” can deter people from pressing their patriarchal expectations on you. Not even the patent harm that marriage might inflict on you will convince even people who love you that really, maybe this is not something they should be pushing women towards.

So while I believe in the sincerity of Jessica’s intentions, and wish her happiness, I still staunchly claim that the only way to fix marriage as an institution is to dismantle it, like salvery - with which it shares several characteristics.

(I’m curious to see if my protestations against marriage are dismissed as so much hot air now, because I’m getting divorced and presumed “bitter”, in the same way that they were dismissed when I was married and presumed “in love” - we shall see)

Comment #7: MarinaS  on  04/24  at  09:03 PM

However, I did have a Spaying shower when I got myself fixed a couple of years ago.  Unfortunately, we never did get the damn uterus shaped pinata completed.  But I got trashy novels, slippers and comfy jammie pants for lounging in after my surgery.
GeekGirlsRule on 04/24 at 07:43 PM

Now there’s a party I’d like to go to!  (seriously.)

Although, to be fair, many weddings have open bars, I like to drink, thus I like weddings. 

I really enjoy explaining to people that no, I do not want to get married, ever, because it sounds like misery to me, but yes, I do believe that gay people should be legally allowed to get married, everywhere, because everyone deserves the chance to screw up their life equally.

Comment #8: LauraB  on  04/24  at  09:29 PM

My critique is of the system, and the way that it creates a hierarchy of relationships built on paper and custom instead of the quality of relationships.

This is why I whole-heartedly wish the state would get out of the marriage business altogether.  While I definitely appreciate some of the financial benefits that go along with it (insurance coverage, hospital visitation rights, etc.), I think a person should be free to designate whoever they want to be the beneficiaries of those things, and I don’t think there should be a state-mandated sexual relationship required.  While it would certainly be untenable to expect a business to extend partner benefits to multiple partners, why shouldn’t any pair of friends, of any gender, and any orientation be able to share in available “partner benefits”.  Be they a traditional male-female married couple, a same-sex married couple, or even two platonic best friends of any gender?

I know that sounds bizarre, but I know a pair that found themselves in precisely this situation.  It was a gay man and a straight woman who were best friends and roommates for years.  The straight woman had many medical issues which prevented her from being able to work full-time, and thus left her without decent insurance coverage.  This put her in a Catch-22: too sick to work enough to get decent insurance, and without insurance, she couldn’t afford to get too sick.  He had a fantastic job, and his company provided excellent medical coverage.  So they had the crazy idea to get married in a courtroom so that she could be covered under his company’s insurance policy.  And it worked.  But they had to live this bizarre lie as a “married couple”, despite their relationship being purely platonic.  They even had separate sexual relationships outside their marriage, but it was typically awkward explaining the situation to their lovers.

The bottom line was, the woman never really wanted to get married to anyone, and the man had no legal ability to get married at the time (this was several years ago).  But they both wanted to get the legal and financial benefits of marriage.

And why shouldn’t they be able to get those benefits?

Why shouldn’t anybody?  What about the asexual folks who don’t date?  Or those who just don’t have much luck with dating?  Why does society provide certain legal and financial benefits to people for being involved in what is expected to be a sexual relationship?

Why couldn’t two older (or hell, even two younger) women or men who have nothing more than a platonic relationship and consider each other best friends not get to benefit from all that comes with marriage?

Simple solution… any two people, gay, straight, same-sex, or opposite-sex, should be legally allowed to enter into a civil partnership which extends to them all of the legal rights that have traditionally only been offered in the context of a male-female marriage.  The nature of their relationship (either sexual or platonic) should have no bearing on whether or not they can enter into the partnership.  No more than one partnership can be entered into at a time for either partner, and the partnership can be severed at any time by either party.  If there are any disputes about community property, children, alimony, or maintenance payments, allow those disputes to be settled in a court of law, as one would in a traditional divorce.  One may enter into this type of partnership as many times as they wish, but they may only participate in one partnership at any given time - this will prevent someone from trying to game the system by having 100 partners who they expect their company to provide insurance for.

Leave the marriage business to the religious folks.  And if anyone wants to create their own religion or find a religion that will perform a specific type of marriage, more power to them.  But limit the current legal rights of marriage to the state, and do away with the concept of state granting special recognition to people solely because they are in a sexual relationship that they wouldn’t grant to two people not in a sexual relationship.

All that said… so long as the state continues to marry people and use the specific word marriage to describe the state-sanctioned union, they should be legally required to offer marriage to any couple, regardless of orientation.  Providing “civil unions” for LGBT couples while continuing to provide “marriage” for heterosexual couples is a despicable form of separate but equal othering, even if the law is written such that the civil union in theory would provide all the same legal rights as marriage.

There can be no differentiation in the language used by the state to describe the legally recognized union of an LGBT couple from the language that is applied to a hetero couple.

Comment #9: DTG in STL  on  04/24  at  09:31 PM

<blockquote>Simple solution… any two people, gay, straight, same-sex, or opposite-sex, should be legally allowed to enter into a civil partnership which extends to them all of the legal rights that have traditionally only been offered in the context of a male-female marriage.  The nature of their relationship (either sexual or platonic) should have no bearing on whether or not they can enter into the partnership.

Never gonna happen in the next couple decades. Why? One simple reason: immigration. You either drop immigration rights attached to this civil partnership, which would (rightly) invite lots of opposition from people who go abroad, fall in love, and want to settle with their partner. Or you leave them attached and face truly titanic amounts of opposition from the business and bigot communities, because anyone could then effectively “sponsor” a friend for immigration without all the bizarre, patriarchal hoops married couples have to jump through.

That said, I think this is clearly the right thing to do, and really do hope it becomes politically and culturally feasible someday soon.

Comment #10: Egarwaen  on  04/24  at  10:15 PM

While I definitely appreciate some of the financial benefits that go along with it (insurance coverage, hospital visitation rights, etc.), I think a person should be free to designate whoever they want to be the beneficiaries of those things, and I don’t think there should be a state-mandated sexual relationship required.

Hmm.  Although the idea is intriguing, I think you’re talking about two different situations.  There is the situation where you have two people who want to set up a household together with all that implies (such as the purchase of joint assets that would need to be divided up in case of a split) and there is also the separate situation where you have two people who do not want to live under the same roof but who still want some of the automatic inheritance and other rights currently conveyed by marriage granted to someone who is unrelated to them.

This, I think, is where having a civil unions option would be handy.  Basically, instead of forming a contract to create a new household with a spouse, you would form a contract to gain a new “sibling” who would have very similar rights to the ones that blood relatives are currently granted by virtue of being your family.  Spousal rights stem from your new spouse becoming your next-of-kin, so that’s what a civil union (of the kind I’m picturing) would grant—the next-of-kin rights without all of those unnecessary community property and child custody rights.

I’m not sure what the cake would look like, though.  grin

Comment #11: Mnemosyne  on  04/24  at  10:29 PM

TheLady, you remind me of this definition from Bierce’s The Devil’s Dictionary

  * Marriage, n. The state or condition of a community consisting of a master, a mistress and two slaves, making in all, two.

Comment #12: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/24  at  10:49 PM

Never gonna happen in the next couple decades. Why? One simple reason: immigration.

That’s actually precisely what I was thinking about when I was writing this.

I got into with a friend over this, and my friend made the contention that any unrelated man and woman of legal age could get married, regardless of the true nature of their relationship, so he thought my point was moot, at least as far as male-female marriages go.  And insofar as the state won’t typically come to your house to make sure you share a bed and have sex with your partner periodically, he was right.  Nevertheless, the societal expectation is that the couple should at least appear to be engaged in a sexual relationship.  Even if a man and a woman who are just non-sexual friends decided to get married just to get the legal benefits of marriage, there would still be considerable social pressure on them to at least appear to be a traditional couple that has a sexual relationship.

However, when it comes specifically to issues surrounding immigration, my point isn’t moot.  If my best friend is a woman (or even a man) from Japan, and we are only platonic friends, but we decide to get married to allow her to fast-track her way to American citizenship, we would have to lie, fairly convincingly in some cases, about the nature of our relationship.  We would be expected to be more than just platonic friends, but actual sexual partners.  We might even need to show an immigration officer our marital bed.  Would we necessarily have to have sex?  Of course not… but we would have to convincingly present ourselves as a couple in a sexual relationship.

And why?  Why should it make a spit of difference if our relationship is sexual or not?

Right there, a specific value has been assigned to a sexual relationship which says that if it is sexual, it can be state-recognized and will provide certain benefits, but if it isn’t sexual, no state-recognition or special benefits can be obtained.  Which implicitly means that the state is saying that certain types of relationships are better than others.

What if we are best friends?  What if we love each other deeply, though not in a sexual way?  Is platonic love “less valuable” to society than sexual love?

My mother was married to my father for nearly 30 years in a fairly loveless marriage.  My father wasn’t explicitly abusive, but he was very emotionally unavailable (still is).  My mother considered herself heterosexual, but because of significant sexual trauma she suffered as a child from her mother and her uncle, she never felt sexually comfortable.  She died a year ago, with her very best friend at her bedside, a widow named Joanie.  Neither my mother nor Joanie considered themselves lesbians, and they did not have feelings of sexual attraction for one another.  Nevertheless, they both considered their relationship the most important one of their lives, and they loved each other deeply, in a purely platonic sense.  The relationship they shared - though it wasn’t sexual - was more important to them than either of their marriages had been.  Was their love less valuable than that of two people who happen to fuck?

Anyway, it goes back to the original point that the state shouldn’t arbitrarily assign different meanings and importance to relationships based on what type of relationship they are, with certain caveats… blood-related persons should not be legally allowed to enter these partnerships (incest should be illegal, even between consenting adults), and age-restrictions should exist on who could enter these partnerships - a 50 year old man should not be allowed to enter a partnership such as this with an 8 year old boy or girl.  Nor should a 50 year old woman be allowed to.

But aside from that - two unrelated consenting adults should be allowed to enter a civil partnership which has all of the traditional benefits of marriage.

A way to deal with the immigration conundrum would be to require that the partnership must be maintained for a certain period of time (5 years?) before full citizenship rights are granted to the immigrant partner.

Basically, I think any couple should be allowed to enjoy the rights of marriage.  A woman and man who are in love sexually, a woman and a woman who are in love sexually, a man and a man who are in love sexually… or a woman and man who are buddies.  Or a woman and woman who are buddies.  Or even a man and a man who are buddies.  Any conceivable pairing of consenting, unrelated adults of any sexual orientation and whose relationship is of any nature should be allowed to obtain the partner benefits of marriage.

Because really… who decides what love is, and what the parameters of love should entail, and what type of love is worthy of being recognized by the state and afforded certain rights, and what type of love isn’t?

Comment #13: DTG in STL  on  04/24  at  10:54 PM

Getting married is fun, and funny. My ex husband and I were together for 11 years before we wed, and the decision to marry was for lots of reasons, chief among them having a giant party and celebrating our partnership with our friends & family.

Getting married (as heteros) is easy. Planning a ‘feminist’ wedding, or a ‘less-patriarchally-steeped’ wedding, also easy. A feminist marriage, that’s some tough shit right there. All the very very best to both Harding and Valenti- may your parties be glorious and the dancing endless. But sweet Mary and Joseph, good luck keeping the patrarchy out of your marriages. If anyone can find a way perhaps it’s one/both of them. And maybe they’ll share their solutions with the rest of us.

Comment #14: mir  on  04/24  at  10:55 PM

DTG, just so you know, pretty much everything you say seems to be win, and that one was the winningest win of all.

Comment #15: INTPagan  on  04/24  at  10:56 PM

And why?  Why should it make a spit of difference if our relationship is sexual or not?

Right there, a specific value has been assigned to a sexual relationship which says that if it is sexual, it can be state-recognized and will provide certain benefits, but if it isn’t sexual, no state-recognition or special benefits can be obtained.  Which implicitly means that the state is saying that certain types of relationships are better than others.

What if we are best friends?  What if we love each other deeply, though not in a sexual way?  Is platonic love “less valuable” to society than sexual love?

DTG, I completely agree with everything you’re saying. You’re 100% absolutely right, and I’d love to live in a world that works the way you describe. It would be glorious. But this idea is going to face a lot of opposition from those with a vested interest in the status quo WRT immigration, in addition to the usual bunch with a vested interest in the status quo WRT marriage. I want to believe that this is what society’s moving towards, but a lot is going to have to change before it happens. Frankly, winning acceptance for that will be a much, much harder battle than gay marriage.

Current US immigration law for spouses requires that you prove to USCIS that you’re a “real married couple” just to obtain a green card. We’re not talking citizenship here, we’re just talking the right to live and work in the same country. You have to prove that you live together, that you have friends who see you as a married couple, that you corresponded regularly while living in separate countries (via phone bills), that you go places and do things together (via photographic evidence), and, sometimes, that you have had or plan to have children. And even then, the immigrant can’t naturalize (become a citizen) until they’ve been married for 3 years, and divorcing or separating before then is (I believe, but hope I’m wrong) grounds for deportation. These immigration laws aren’t just about making it hard to become a US citizen, they’re about assimilating foreigners and forcing them to adopt American social norms.

Should that change? You’re damn right it should. Will it any time soon without a lot of anguish and hard-fought political and cultural battles? No.

Comment #16: Egarwaen  on  04/24  at  11:15 PM

DTG, just so you know, pretty much everything you say seems to be win, and that one was the winningest win of all.

Well thank you.

I guess what got me thinking about it was a relationship I had with a woman a few years ago.  We were roommates, but just non-sexual friends.  We were actually best friends.  Both of us heterosexual, but each having completely independent sexual love lifes.  For a good portion of the time we lived together, each of us had a significant other, but then I broke up with my girlfriend, and a month or so later she wound up breaking up with her boyfriend.  Everybody assumed our separate breakups were because we were hooking up with each other, which couldn’t have been further from the truth.  We were like brother and sister, and though we once had the weird talk about what it would be like to hook up and even tried making out for a minute, we both had a similar “ewww” reaction after we briefly kissed - it was just a little too weird for either one of us.  After a few moments of awkward silence, we started laughing about the whole thing, and joked that we should just get married for the benefits, since neither one of us was having much luck with our real love lifes, and we got along spectacularly, even though we weren’t sexually involved.

And while we were never serious about igetting married, we actually wound up having a pretty deep converstaion about it, and realized that the only thing that could actually prevent us from getting married was the social pressure of having to pretend to be in a relationship that we weren’t actually in, even though we both loved each other deeply - as best friends (without benefits).  We both agreed that it was pretty fucked up that the state had an arbitrary set of rules for the nature of a relationship people had to be in in order to get the benefits of marriage, and that it was possible for two people to love each other in a platonic way that for some people could be bigger than any sexual relationship that they had.  But the state still places higher value on the sexual relationship between a man and a woman than on any other type of relationship, and that was explicitly rooted in the patriarchal expectation of baby-making.

And that’s fucked up.  It isn’t the state’s job to assign a certain value to certain types of relationships between adults.  That should be solely at the discretion of the adults involved.

And this isn’t about taking away a male-female couple’s right to enter into a legal partnership where they can spawn to their heart’s content, but rather to take away the exclusivity of that right to a legal partnership.  So a man and woman in a heteronormative sexual relationship will still be able to enter into this state-recognized partnership and enjoy all the benefits (and consequences) that it entails, but so will any other pairing of consenting unrelated adults, regardless of either partner’s gender or orientation, and the sexual nature of their relationship - or lack of any sexual nature whatsoever - will be entirely between the two people involved.

Get the state ENTIRELY out of the bedroom business.

Comment #17: DTG in STL  on  04/24  at  11:24 PM

While the patriarchy invests any action we take under any circumstances, on a fundamental level, there is a real economic need for households which have some kind of legal existence separate from just the people in them, especially for the purpose of sorting out parental rights.

The existence of border cases and people for whom the system does not work does not invalidate the concept of the system.  I agree that the move toward gender equality, longer lifespans, understanding of sexual identity, and reproductive freedom over the last century has moved marriage from something it was into something it needs to eventually become.  But kids still exist, as do hospitals which need to know who to turn to if someone is ill and either cannot make decisions or need visitors.  These are problems traditionally solved by marriage, and anyone looking to do away with the institution will need to have equally effective solutions put forward.

Marriage is, was, and remains a fundamentally economic institution.  Love is love.  Marriage is marriage.  They can intersect, be deeply entwined, or be entirely separate.

Comment #18: Punditus Maximus  on  04/24  at  11:32 PM

I want to believe that this is what society’s moving towards, but a lot is going to have to change before it happens. Frankly, winning acceptance for that will be a much, much harder battle than gay marriage.

Oh, I realize that my opinion on this subject is off in the clouds in terms of what I can ever pragmatically expect to see in my lifetime, and getting to legal acceptance of gay marriage across the board is certainly the more attainable goal.  And if, or rather when, that goal is reached, it will indeed be a good thing worthy of celebration.

But I think it’s something to talk about, and to get people talking about, because as crazy as the notion of getting the state completely out of the business of assigning a special value to sexual relationships may seem today, I do think such a world is someday possible, though I have a hard time seeing it happening in my lifetime.

And this isn’t in anyway meant to be an anti-sex or anti-sexual love rant.  I think sex and love are great.  And I think they are absolutely none of the state’s business, and when the state makes it its business, it sets up some really fucked up patriarchal norms, which largely fuel our rape culture.

The only degree to which the state should ever be involved in matters of sex at all is in ensuring the strict prosecution of sexual assaults of any type, providing adequate education free of moral or religious prejudice and contraception to sexually active citizens, and ensuring that reproductive rights remain safe, legal, and readily available.

Comment #19: DTG in STL  on  04/24  at  11:37 PM

The unhusband and I have been together for almost 20 years we have two kids together and people keep telling me that one day I will change my mind and find myself blissfully floating down an aisle.  I don’t get what is so hard to understand about a woman that believes that commitment is between two people and not the state or religion.  I don’t need anyone to validate the life that we share.  We are a family and that is that. 
We refer to each other as unhusband and unwife to purposefully break the patriarchal understanding of our relationship.  Over the years our roles have flip flopped various times but we negotiate it as best as we can so that each person is preforming the tasks that they are able to. 
I do understand why some people feel the need to get the stamp of approval but it is not the piece of paper that keeps you together through the rough times; it is the love and commitment that you both share.  He is not the same man nor am I the same woman however we have made a commitment to grow together and share all things.  No shiny bauble or white dress could ever even begin to signify what we have.

Comment #20: womanistmusings  on  04/24  at  11:56 PM

I don’t see how insurance, etc. is a “however”.  That’s more evidence of how unfair the system is.  You shouldn’t have to tie yourself to a sexual partner for life in order to get health care.  That’s fucked up.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/25  at  01:00 AM

Mnem, I wasn’t just saying, “It’s just a piece of paper.”  I’m saying that no matter how feminist we try to make it, that piece of paper marks one class of women as superior to another, and one kind of relationship as superior to another, and that bothers me.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/25  at  01:04 AM

The existence of border cases and people for whom the system does not work does not invalidate the concept of the system.

But the problem is that most people are “border cases”.  Marriage was set up to be a self-perpetuating institution, and the happiness of the people in it is irrelevant.  Our society has decided we value people over institutions and equality over hierarchy.  As such, marriage doesn’t fit our values systems, since it upholds other values.  This is why half of marriages end in divorce, and a significant percentage of the others should but don’t, because the people involved bought into the bullshit idea that you should be devoted to a relationship that makes you unhappy because Marriage Is Sacred.

Once anything gets marked as sacred, it needs to be questioned a million times harder. 

There is no reason that permanence should be stamped onto people.  The very notion that permanence is in and of itself a value is a sacred cow that needs examining.  People fear change, but very often when the change they’ve dreaded for years (such as a divorce) becomes inevitable, they feel free and wonder why they wasted so much of their lives.

Why not build a system around the idea that life is brief and precious and should be lived to its fullest?

My answer, if someone really wants it,  for why I’m hostile to marriage is that I like waking up every day knowing that it’s a choice, not a duty.  Resisting at every corner the tendency of monogamy to be a prison where each person is too busy policing the other’s behavior to remember why they loved them in the beginning.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/25  at  01:14 AM

The bit about the bouquet reminds me of what happened to me at my sister’s wedding. Only not with the bouquet toss, but the garter toss.

So the reception is winding down and they get to the throwing stuff around bit and the garter toss is announced. So all the single men gather for this and I’m standing on the sidelines. I don’t remember who did it, but despite my protests, I was forced out there for this. And I can’t imagine why, what with my being 12 years old and all. I guess they thought it’d be a pretty funny goof to have me standing out there trying to catch the thing.

Now, I’m 12, not an idiot. I know what the significance of this is supposed to be. I know the ‘winner’ has to go out there and dance with the bouquet catcher. But that’s not why I didn’t want to do it. I just saw it as a really silly thing to participate in (not to mention the veritable squick factor of a) the husband tossing some of his new wife’s underwear to a bunch of men and b) that it’s my sister…yeah…).

To this day I still remember the picture of that moment. There I am, in front of men two and three (and more) times my age with a stupid grin plastered to my face (because I don’t necessarily want to be that guy) as I stare at the flying garter whilst grown men grab at it like loons. And me with my arms firmly at my side because I had zero intention of actually trying…

I don’t think I’ve ever been really comfortable at weddings for some reason…

Comment #24: Santa Claustrophobia  on  04/25  at  01:22 AM

though I planned the Mass and avoided both Genesis and Paul entirely

While I know this was about the ceremony, I read this and thought immediately of Phil Collins. And now this is running through my head:

I can feel it coming in the air tonight, oh Lord
I’ve been waiting for this moment for all my life

And if you eliminate Paul, does that mean you’re fine with John, George, and Ringo?

Amanda: A feminist wedding is whatever kind of wedding two feminists decide to have. The only expectation you have to meet is your own.

Comment #25: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  01:52 AM

Ages ago, I used to look at wedding dresses because I liked seeing what would look good on me.  But I never really considered getting married until I started reading up on feminism, whereupon I acquired an aversion to it.  I already know that societal expectations would weigh down on me and my hypothetical husband - the largest worry would be that they would poison the marriage.  I’d become The Wife, not out of any personal desire, but out of culturiffic programming on both our parts.

(My boyfriend is disinterested in marriage, and my girlfriend is already married, so it’s all good.)

DTG: what a gigantic pile of win, your comments!  Nicely done.

Comment #26: XtinaS  on  04/25  at  02:11 AM

DTG: the only argument that i have with anything that you said is simple: i don’t see why *any* consenting adults should be barred from having sex. consenting. adults. i don’t care if they are related; not my business. and even if they want to have kids, the ONLY issue i feel that is important there is genetic.
incest is a *social* more. people dislike it for the same reason they dislike cannabilism - because they are taught to. there is no reason, other than genetic, to not have a relationship… and, in a culture where DNA is fully understood and reading a person’s genetic code is easy, i’m pretty sure that the cultural dislike of incest will fade away. we aren’t there yet - but BC means that if a brother and sister who were consenting adults wanted to whatever, no one else should have any say. go, have sex with whomever, not my business.

on weddings:
i threw a party when i got divorced. we sorta vaguely eloped (i was 17, i took my family with us, because i needed parental permission, and it wasn’t my fault anyway, i blame Alabama.) so i never had a wedding.
when i do get around to getting married again (and amazingly, after 5 years with Pete i am *still* NOT getting pressure from my family, which makes me happy) i would like something resembling a wedding.
i will wear red.
oh, and my ex-husband is going to give me away. because if i can’t be sarcastic at my wedding, i won’t do it. isn’t it *my* day? so i can be sarcastic and make fun of the patriarchy with my cake.

Comment #27: denelian  on  04/25  at  04:23 AM

I think about this wedding issue all the time. My boyfriend and I live together and plan to spend our lives together, and I know he wants to get married, and I think we probably will when we have kids. However, I was recently diagnosed with a chronic disease that’s likely to present insurance problems if Obama’s health care plan doesn’t work out the way it sounds like he wants it to. I might have to marry him so I can have insurance. I love him and he’s wonderful (and a feminist, of course) but the wedding idea kind of freaks me out. Boyfriend, however, loves wedding receptions and really wants one. I think I’ll just let him do most of the planning and insist that we skip the ceremony. Besides, I look terrible in white and am not allowed to eat cake, not even a bite hand-fed by my newly legal overlord and keeper, thanks to Crappy New Disease, so that gets rid of two traditions right there.

denelian - I love the idea of your ex-husband giving you away. I would definitely do that if I had an ex-husband!

Comment #28: F. McGee  on  04/25  at  07:50 AM

I sort of sympathized with family members who would like there to be more weddings to go to, because they’re fun and our once-geographically-close family needs reasons to come together
Well, you can just invite them all to your baby shower. I mean, you do plan to have kids, don’t you? For the sake of your family?

...

But seriously, the structure in which legal supportive relationships are unconstrained by identity and sexual politics that DTG describes sounds ideal. The thing to think carefully about, though, is how easy it should be to end such a relationship. Of course, it should (obviously) be easy enough that people don’t get stuck in abusive relationships they can’t escape. However, I would argue it should be harder to get out of such a relationship than un-friending somebody on facebook, or else it seems like new kinds of abuse (both of the system itself, and of one partner by another) would be enabled.

Would you agree that there should still be an element of commitment (a presumption of durability) involved in a relationship before it warrants legal sanction? Or am I missing the point? And I’m not trying to cause trouble, I really think this deserves some attention.

Comment #29: FearItself  on  04/25  at  08:48 AM

I get the “So when are you going to take it to the next level?” question a lot.  I’ve found the best way to respond is “well, I have a familial disposition to be bad at marriage so this is the level.” 

I think part of my problem is the idea that length determines the value of a relationship.  I would rather have a series of short relationships with amicable endings than a long marriage ending in an ugly divorce.  I’m also very attached to the idea of being able to take care of my own business (most of the time) and I think my relationships are healthier when I know that I’m in them because I wanna be not because of legal or financial ties. 

I do think about the fact that I don’t have a next of kin that is capable of decision making, but that isn’t necessarily a power I’m comfortable thinking about anyone with.

Comment #30: semi_factual  on  04/25  at  09:01 AM

Weddings are fun though.  That’s how they get people, all the booze and fancy clothes.

Comment #31: semi_factual  on  04/25  at  09:09 AM

I always wondered why I couldn’t have a shower for me for being smart enough to not get knocked up or trapped into a marriage.  I hate showers, but I hate the fact that nobody is beholden to shower me with gifts more.  I guess I’m selfish that way.

Now I’m buying a house.  Damn right I’m going to have a housewarming party, and damn right, these bastards are going to bring me gifts.  I’ve been going to their baby and wedding showers for years, some of them on second and third marriages and STILL looking for gifts. 

But DTG hit the nail on the head.  I don’t have much luck finding guys who are worthy.  I grew up all over the world, so it’s hard to find people with sensibilities and even harder to find guys who accept that I’m a human being first and foremost.  So I remain single.  Because I’m not willing to lower my standards to have Any Guy around, I don’t get gifts?  Fuck that noise.

I won’t have a registry, though.  That shit is gauche.

Comment #32: speedbudget  on  04/25  at  09:37 AM

For me, sexual love’s very appeal is that it creates a space of resistance to the enormous pressures to conform and comply.

I really like this sentence.  My wife and I are atheists, and neither of us are close enough to our families to feel like their expectations compel us to do anything.  And I’m really fond of the path our relationship has taken.  When we decided we wanted kids, we quit on the birth control before we were married.  When she got pregnant, we eloped.  And if it weren’t for practical considerations, like insurance, I think we’d be happy with our relationship even if it wasn’t a state recognized marriage.  I don’t think being married, otherwise, adds anything to our relationship that we find important.

The one thing I thought reading this whole thing is that it sucks that being an outspoken feminist has to be an exercise in self-denial.  I’m sure it comes into play a million other ways outside of just marriage, but it would be nice to carve out some space for self-indulgence, even when you know, rationally, that it should make you cringe.

Comment #33: Wallace  on  04/25  at  09:48 AM

I am on board with everyone who’s said that long-term financial entanglements should be protected by clear contracts. For instance, not only do I plan to get married, I want a prenup that entails that if one partner takes a part-time job or stops working outside the home for any period of time to care for children, some sort of extra provision will be made towards that partner’s retirement fund out of the household income. DTG, your scenario is ideal. I think household contracts are a brilliant idea, partially because I love the idea of platonic friends being legally able to commit to lifelong mutual support.

Comment #34: purpleshoes  on  04/25  at  10:18 AM

Marriage is a feminist institution these days. It is a legal arrangement (far from perfect, granted) designed mostly to protect the interests of the woman and any resulting children. Without that legal protection, countless more women would find themselves forty-something with kids and no means of support while their 50-something ex husbands are driving around in a bright red sports car with a younger woman. If they were married, at least they have a shot of get something approaching what they deserve. And marriage has many other legal/financial benefits as well, lower taxes not least among them. I think it’s wise to see it as a legal/financial relationship first rather than “the happiest day of your life” or any other brand of romantic mumbo jumbo. But if people want to see it that way too, that’s fine and dandy. It’s just sad that so many turn it into an ordeal for themselves and everyone involved.

As for all that associated crap, I think that is something too many well-educated people over think. How a couple handles their wedding is something they can control. Big party, white dress? No big production, just a civil service at the courthouse or a marriage shack in Vegas?  Usually there is not going to be some way to do it that makes everybody 100 percent happy. You might as well figure out who you most want to make happy, accept it, then do what they, or you, want.

I suspect for most people it’s plenty bad enough without adding “should we make a big political statement?” to the mix. Of course I don’t deny that one can find political aspects in the proceedings, but for most people, obsessing over them is probably not the best way to get through the ordeal. But hey, maybe in your case it is? Whatever makes you happy, eh. Sometimes there’s no right answer. But on a good day, in the right relationship, you’ll more likely find that there is no wrong answer. It’s really not that difficult. Don’t think so much. Be.

Comment #35: chuckling  on  04/25  at  10:43 AM

Married Mr. Ranylt after 6 years of living in sin, for bureaucratic reasons (we’re both facing the possibility of working outside our country), and economic ones I’m not necessarily proud of (felt better buying a house with him as a married couple).  Also, as you say, got sick of having to justify our relationship as “real” to the nudnicks.  Yes, I gave in, but unlike Jessica V, I made sure I wasn’t put in any sort of traditional position (planning, meringue gown, etc).

There were certain conditions: no wedding, no engagement/diamond ring, no gifts.  We went to the courthouse with our two best friends as witnesses (NO family was allowed to come), then a day later we hosted only parents and siblings at our place, where we cooked the meal ourselves (they were weirded out, yes).  I wore business clothes to the court house.  We wear plain white gold bands that cost less than $100 each. Etc. 

I think we reinforced our values and purpose to all and sundry by this—we married for love, not for gifts, diamonds, bragging rights, or a wedding. Of course noses were out of joint, but as my husband said, we can piss off relatives with our nuptial choices for $10,000, or we can not have a wedding and piss them off anyway (have never heard of a wedding planned without some parent or in-law offended by some petty thing).

I married a right feminist, and while I still believe marriage period has its patriarchal issues (Amanda is right on), I think there’s a middle ground that is beginning to swell.

Comment #36: Ranylt  on  04/25  at  10:52 AM

I had a bit of a start when I read Jessica Valenti’s article. She wrote,

But mostly there were plenty of congratulations and hundreds of comments from other feminists on the ways their political beliefs had informed their weddings and marriages… ShifterCat told of…

Hey, I know ShifterCat! She’s one of my wife’s high school friends, and a very cool feminist.

ShifterCat told of a friend’s wedding where, as a small memento, every guest received “a little scroll saying that a donation has been made in their name to Habitat For Humanity”.

That was *our* wedding! We’re not sure how patriarchy-subverting it was to give donations to charity in lieu of favors, given that the idea came from one of those Stepford-esque online wedding forums. Still, pretty neat to see it in print!

Comment #37: Cyan, Lord High Procrastinator  on  04/25  at  11:40 AM

My answer, if someone really wants it, for why I’m hostile to marriage is that I like waking up every day knowing that it’s a choice, not a duty.  Resisting at every corner the tendency of monogamy to be a prison where each person is too busy policing the other’s behavior to remember why they loved them in the beginning.

See, I think of my marriage as a choice.  That said, when you come from a family where your parents and all of your aunts and uncles are happily married and no one is divorced (really, no one), marriage looks a whole lot easier to begin with.

Comment #38: FashionablyEvil  on  04/25  at  12:04 PM

“I think that what really impresses people is if you have good food, a good bar, and if you can get people to dance for hours at your wedding, “

My mom use to say all you needed for a great was free beer and great polka band. Strange how that makes more sense the older I get.

Amanda, think of the german influenced Tejano dance music you might have run into. Shit is catchy as the clap after some boozing.

Comment #39: The Pale Scot  on  04/25  at  12:12 PM

We’re not sure how patriarchy-subverting it was to give donations to charity in lieu of favors

Can feminism exist without ascribing everything that is annoying, pointless, or anachronistic to the patriarchy?  I don’t see how tying Jordan almonds up in lace net with a matching ribbon keeps the male power structure in place. Frankly, if it came up for a vote,  I would abstain and let the matriarchy decide.

Comment #40: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  12:44 PM

/cranky

Comment #41: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  12:44 PM

Amanda: A feminist wedding is whatever kind of wedding two feminists decide to have. The only expectation you have to meet is your own.

Ah yes, “choice” feminism. I’m not a fan of the notion that “feminism” is an empty signifier, and that even people who espouse anti-woman attitudes should get to be feminists.  That there is disagreement about tactics and some ideas within feminism doesn’t mean that it’s a meaningless word.  If you promise to obey your husband, for instance, that’s obviously not feminist.

However, I would argue it should be harder to get out of such a relationship than un-friending somebody on facebook, or else it seems like new kinds of abuse (both of the system itself, and of one partner by another) would be enabled.

I strongly disagree.  I’ve never seen any value whatsoever in making divorce harder than it already is (because it’s hard to break up with anyone).  It just makes everyone—-children, spouses, people around them—-even more miserable than they already are.  The easier divorce is, the better for everyone all around.

Marriage is a feminist institution these days.

I have a pile of statistics showing that women’s workload goes up while their salaries go down when they marry to prove otherwise.  Marriage may be egalitarian in the eyes of the law, but it’s still functionally there to shift women’s labor over to men for free.  Wives do more housework than non-wives, and have less paid employment.  Wives also have less freedom than non-wives. Some feminist women trade in their time and freedom for security, and the hopes they can build a more egalitarian marriage.  Most non-feminist women just trade in their time and freedom for the social approval that comes with being married.

Really, I could write an essay disagreeing with your comment, but I’ll stick to this:

It is a legal arrangement (far from perfect, granted) designed mostly to protect the interests of the woman and any resulting children. Without that legal protection, countless more women would find themselves forty-something with kids and no means of support while their 50-something ex husbands are driving around in a bright red sports car with a younger woman.

It wasn’t designed “for” women in any way, shape or form.  It was designed to bring women under the control of their husbands, and through decades of feminist lobbying, it was made less oppressive.  But it still isn’t designed for women.

From what I can tell, you think a woman’s choices are:

a) Be left destitute by a man who wants to run around with young women and a sports car
b) Be stuck in a miserable marriage with a man who wants A, but doesn’t want to bother with a divorce, so instead he just cheats on you

Which means you’ll probably divorce him anyway. 

If these are the options, then marriage is indeed broken and should be abandoned.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/25  at  12:51 PM

See, I think of my marriage as a choice.  That said, when you come from a family where your parents and all of your aunts and uncles are happily married and no one is divorced (really, no one), marriage looks a whole lot easier to begin with.

Well yeah, if you haven’t seen the way that divorce goes, then you don’t see how much marriage reduces your freedom of choice.  If you do experience divorce, you see how much more work it takes to break up, and it’s disturbing.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/25  at  12:53 PM

I don’t see how tying Jordan almonds up in lace net with a matching ribbon keeps the male power structure in place.

Strawman.  No one said that.

The issue at hand is that no one ties little Jordan almonds into a lace net with a matching ribbon to celebrate your PhD, your first book, the dream job, buying your own house without a man, or doing for yourself despite all the social pressure to put men in charge of your life.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/25  at  01:05 PM

If you promise to obey your husband, for instance, that’s obviously not feminist.

Yeah, I don’t know how to address that without falling into the “no true scotsman” fallacy.

I don’t think feminists should have to agonize over every detail of their wedding, e.g.

Would a feminist throw the bouquet?

Woule a feminist even have a bouquet?

Would a feminist have a lucky sixpence in her shoe?

Etc.

Comment #45: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  01:07 PM

no one ties little Jordan almonds into a lace net with a matching ribbon to celebrate your PhD, your first book, the dream job, buying your own house without a man, or doing for yourself

Having recently attended a baby shower I want to say that however worthy of celebration, those milestones lack the impact of welcomng new members to your family. And yes, there were party favors. Mine was tied up with a ribbon threaded through a miniature pacifier.

Comment #46: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  01:21 PM

I understand the idea that marriage is patriarchal and hence a committed feminist would find ways to defy it.  But one of the insidious things about patriarchy is that it suffuses, well, pretty much everything.  Property ownership is designed to be patriarchal.  Heterosexuality is entirely enmeshed in patriarchal scripts, norms, and expectations.  Capitalism is patriarchal.  America is patriarchal.  And yet feminists work within those parameters.  I guess what I wonder is why marriage is the Ne Plus Ultra, the institution that’s so irredeemably patriarchal that the best way to fight it is to renounce it.  Is it because there’s a sliver of possible resistance around marriage, while some of these other cultural formations have become by and large irresistible?

Comment #47: FlipYrWhig  on  04/25  at  01:54 PM

I think that what really impresses people is if you have good food, a good bar, and if you can get people to dance for hours at your wedding

The only time I’ve heard people complain about a wedding, it was because the food wasn’t good or sufficient. I’ve never heard anyone complain that the napkins didn’t match the flowers.

Comment #48: Tyro  on  04/25  at  01:55 PM

Having recently attended a baby shower I want to say that however worthy of celebration, those milestones lack the impact of welcomng new members to your family.

Why is a career achievement less important for women than getting a husband or a baby, though?  And it is for women—-while men get to enjoy weddings, I don’t think any of us are stupid enough to pretend that the bride isn’t the star of the show.  And even having men at baby showers is a new thing, and it rarely works out as well as intended, since a percentage of the men there will resent being forced to do such a woman thing.

Comment #49: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/25  at  02:26 PM

Hector, you’re wrong.  I’m not saying that I’d yank someone’s feminist card for doing something not feminist.  We all do not feminist things.  Make-up, high heels, hose, doing more housework, worrying about being a crazy cat lady, etc.

The no true scotsman fallacy would be saying, you did X and you don’t get to be a feminist.  I disagree. 

But I don’t think you get to call anything you want feminist because you define yourself as a feminist.  You can be a feminist and promise to obey.  But promising to obey is not a feminist act.  See the difference?  If everything is feminist, then feminism is meaningless.

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/25  at  02:29 PM

I have all sorts of how to have a feminist wedding stories which I don’t have time to relate now, but this is a related bit that I found amazing.

After I sent my wedding and birth of our son info to my college alumni magazine (these things happened 2 1/2 years apart, but I didn’t get around to it until I sent in the birth announcement, leading to them listing my wedding in the same year, 6 months before the birth, rather than 2 years 6 months.  Nothing wrong with that, except the incompetence, but there were a lot of people at that next reunion who wanted to know how long I’d been married).

But here’s the point:  before I sent in that announcement, I had been receiving mailings from the college as Dr. Kajey.  After the wedding announcement, they started sending things to Mrs. Kajey.  they respected me enough to believe I might want to keep my own name, but they were pretty sure being Mrs. outranked being Dr.  I of course called them on it, and they quickly corrected it.  But jeez.

And this is a highly ranked liberal arts college with a female president.  They ought to know better.

Comment #51: kajey  on  04/25  at  03:52 PM

‘Having recently attended a baby shower I want to say that however worthy of celebration, those milestones lack the impact of welcomng new members to your family.”

so, it lacks the impact FOR SOME PEOPLE.  i’m not in a position to weigh the impact of publishing a book versus having a baby, because i’ve never done either, but the latter i have no interest in, so if i’m only going to celebrate the doctorate or the book, why can’t that be IT for me?  why is getting a husband or having a baby automatically more worthy?  why can’t we define the milestones of our lives for ourselves?

Comment #52: chareth cutestory  on  04/25  at  04:20 PM

I didn’t really try to make my wedding feminist, but I’ll tell you what: being DAMN LAZY is a great way to avoid a lot of the patriarchal bullshit. Whenever my mom or someone else would start in on the “of course you’re going to _____” [fill in the blank with some completely unnecessary ritual] I explained that I had absolutely no intention of paying for or organizing such a thing, that it was taking important money away from the honeymoon and an eventual purchase of a home, and if they wanted such a thing, they could damn well cough it up themselves.

It’s not like I had some sort of punk-rock wedding, and I did do stuff that definitely made me a TOTP but .... eh. I mean, seriously. We’re talking about a wedding for bloggers who have very public records of liking the makeup and the high heels and the adorable shoes and have blogged about the pros and cons of fellatio. We’re suddenly going to demand that they be 100% perfect feminists because they’re getting married? Talk about bullying.

Comment #53: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/25  at  04:27 PM

why can’t we define the milestones of our lives for ourselves?

No one’s stopping you from doing so. But the problem is that throwing a party/celebration to mark those milestones requires other people to come and participate. I’ll travel to the other side of the country for a friend’s wedding. Outside my immediate circle of closest friends, I am less likely to attend PhD-completion-parties or book-publishing parties unless they’re within driving distance.

So we can define the milestones of our lives for ourselves, but we can’t always convince everyone else to go along with it.

Comment #54: Tyro  on  04/25  at  04:54 PM

tyro, i know, i guess i’m just trying to work on that—on convincing the people i’d want at my celebrations of meaningful events to recognize how important they are to me and to realize that if they want to help me commemorate something big in my life, they should check their expectations at the door and come out to the house-purchasing, book publishing, making partner parties instead of holding their breath for the white dress and the baybeez.  it takes time and effort, but it would be nice if we could move societally in a direction that is more understanding of the breadth of individual lifestyle choice.

Comment #55: chareth cutestory  on  04/25  at  05:41 PM

why can’t we define the milestones of our lives for ourselves?

No one’s stopping you from doing so. But the problem is that throwing a party/celebration to mark those milestones requires other people to come and participate. I’ll travel to the other side of the country for a friend’s wedding. Outside my immediate circle of closest friends, I am less likely to attend PhD-completion-parties or book-publishing parties unless they’re within driving distance.

So we can define the milestones of our lives for ourselves, but we can’t always convince everyone else to go along with it.

Let’s turn the tables on that one.  You are saying that everyone has a right to judge the significance of their own life milestones, but they don’t have a right to expect others to treat those milestones with the according level of importance.

You would travel 500 miles for a friend’s wedding, but not to celebrate them getting published.

I assume you would expect that friend not to hold any grudges over that.

Well what if my priorities place the importance of book publishing higher than a wedding?  And let’s say I’m your friend.  So you send me an invitation to your wedding.  As that is to me not such a significant moment, I opt to skip out, because I don’t want to travel 500 miles for something that I don’t consider as important.  Not because I don’t want to, but because I have limited time and money, and a wedding just isn’t as big a deal for me as a book publishing.  If you’re inviting me to a celebration of your book publishing, I’ll be there in a heartbeat.

Now, if you don’t think I have a right to hold a grudge for you skipping out on my book publishing celebration, would you then be justifiably entitled to hold a grudge against me for skipping out on your wedding?

To me, the most selfless approach is to ask yourself what matters most to the person whose event you are celebrating, not what you prioritize the most.

So if I know that you are about to be published AND are about to get married, and I know that I can only travel to celebrate one of those events, I will choose to travel to the event that is more important to YOU, because it ain’t about me.  If your book publishing is more important to YOU than getting married, then I will place priority on attending your book publishing party, not your wedding.  If getting married is a bigger milestone to you, then I would place priority on attending the wedding.  Because it is YOUR event, and it is a celebration for YOU.

And I would hope others would afford me the same courtesy.

Comment #56: DTG in STL  on  04/25  at  05:50 PM

and through decades of feminist lobbying, it was made less oppressive.  But it still isn’t designed for women.

Fair enough. It was the decades of feminist lobbying, and the resulting progress I was referring to. It’s been awhile since I visited those issues, but I think I am channeling “The Women’s Room” by Marilyn French, at least a little bit. A lot of feminist energy went into making marriage and divorce as fair as it is today. That’s not a controversial historical analysis. It’s roughly like stating that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

From what I can tell, you think a woman’s choices are:
a) Be left destitute by a man who wants to run around with young women and a sports car
b) Be stuck in a miserable marriage with a man who wants A, but doesn’t want to bother with a divorce, so instead he just cheats on you.

I’m not sure how you could reasonably ascribe that to me based on what I wrote. What you describe is more like what women’s choices were before the feminist advances of the late fifties and sixties. Personally, I wish women all the good choices in the world, but realistically we all have to compromise. And marriage, to some degree at least, provides a modicum of legal and financial protection for those who make bad choices. Sure, it could be better. Let’s keep working on that.

I can see where I could be misunderstood over my contention that sometimes we sometimes over think these issues and might be better served by simply being, at least a good portion of the time. I didn’t mean to say that people shouldn’t pursue academic studies and constantly try to gain expanded insight and knowledge into the way things work. What I meant was that it’s not always practicable to bring that society-wide political analysis to bear on all the minutiae of interpersonal relationships. I’ve no doubt it can work for some people, but in general it’s likely to lead to more heartache than its worth. We’re all flawed. Any successful long term relationship involves the acceptance of imperfection.  Best to identify those imperfections as early in the relationship as possible, then don’t enter into a long term relationship if you can’t accept them. But some people can fool you for a long time and some people change for the worse. Best to have legal protection when that happens.

Comment #57: chuckling  on  04/25  at  06:05 PM

i guess i’m just trying to work on that—on convincing the people i’d want at my celebrations of meaningful events to recognize how important they are to me and to realize that if they want to help me commemorate something big in my life

Well, if I had a friend who told me how important his/her book publishing/thesis defense/home purchase was, then I’d take the extra effort to head out to the celebration… but that’s because I’d like to think I’m the sort of person who can understand different perspectives. Other people might not be so accommodating, which is the problem with defining our own milestones—they require other people to accommodate themselves for your personal milestones. Whereas if we tell people we’re getting married, we have a fairly instantaneous and assure willingness from them to put things aside and join us in celebration.

Comment #58: Tyro  on  04/25  at  06:06 PM

It occurred to me while I was out and about that same sex weddings may be a model for feminist weddings because of the implicit equality between the partners. Bonding need no longer imply subjugation of one party by the other.

Comment #59: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  10:31 PM

Hector B.:

It occurred to me while I was out and about that same sex weddings may be a model for feminist weddings because of the implicit equality between the partners. Bonding need no longer imply subjugation of one party by the other.

As Amanda said in her post:

This is part of the reason that same-sex marriage is such a major league threat to conservatives.  Same-sex weddings don’t have the person with power and the person whose status was elevated by being chosen.  So you’re stuck with celebrating their love, and that’s going to have an influence on how straight weddings are understood.

Goodness.

Comment #60: XtinaS  on  04/26  at  03:00 AM

I’m totally behind DTG’s egalitarian thinking here, and I think e makes some great points against defining marriage as being between sexually co-active members of two sexes. But I don’t think the whole civil union propsal has any legs, or goes anywhere near far enough.

At the moment, marriage (or civil union in places that allow civil union for same sex couples) is assumed to be made up of the following components (roughly): financial partnership, cohabitation, shared child rearing, sexual congress. I’m not talking about the benefits of marriage (e.g. being able to claim on the other person’s insurance, getting better deals on mortgages or being allowed to legally immigrate into their country) - these are all functions of capitalist economies, and while they strongly reflect patriarchal assumptions they are not immutable.

What is immutable is the understanding of two people being married as them sharing a home, raising kids together, sharing their finances and pooling their incomes, and having sex with each other.

The whole “let’s have civil unions with our best friend” paradigm only takes one piece out of the puzzle, it doesn’t actually dismantle the package enough to afford individuals any real freedom. What if your best friend is someone who you really want to buy a house with because they make good money and are great at DIY, but they also happen to be a heavy smoker and you don’t want that around your kids? Why tie any of life’s most significant decisions to just one other person?

We already have provision in the law (at least in Europe we do, maybe it’s different in the US) to do things like buy a house with someone and have our rights protected by a simple contract, or ask more than one non-related person to be guardians for our children in case of our death, or choose who we designate as our next-of-kin if we’re not married. Why not just bypass the whole one-to-one thing altogether and make free choices about who we want to commit to in different areas of our lives, and not have to put up with fallout in one area (say, money) because of choices we made in another (say, sex).

With that belief in mind, there is no incentive for me to want to reform marriage at all. Redefining it is just flogging a dead horse. It’s not a good system, it exposes people (disproportionately, women and children) to a variety of unforeseen risks, and it’s steeped in religious and patriarchal dogma. May as well pack it in and make up our own commitment scripts as we go along.

Comment #61: MarinaS  on  04/26  at  03:13 PM

However, I would argue it should be harder to get out of such a relationship than un-friending somebody on facebook, or else it seems like new kinds of abuse (both of the system itself, and of one partner by another) would be enabled.

I strongly disagree.  I’ve never seen any value whatsoever in making divorce harder than it already is (because it’s hard to break up with anyone).  It just makes everyone—-children, spouses, people around them—-even more miserable than they already are.  The easier divorce is, the better for everyone all around.

Hang on, don’t misunderstand me. I never said I was in favor of “making divorce harder than it already is.” My point is that there’s a positive value to having some obstacles to dissolution of a formally recognized relationship between partners, just as there are some obstacle to the ending of any contract. I chose the facebook example not to be snide, but because that was the easiest, most trivial and low-effort kind of “breakup” I could think of.

I’m trying to say that it’s not a bad thing to have a legally and socially recognized level of partnership that entails a degree of commitment (or maybe more than one such level). It should certainly not be impossible or even difficult to end such a partnership, but ending it shouldn’t be trivial. Having the power to voluntarily make a commitment to another person is a positive good, and that power should be extended to more people than now possess it. Having the power to voluntarily get out of such a relationship is also a positive good, and should be denied to no one. But if getting out is too easy, the value of the initial commitment is diminished as well, isn’t it?

Comment #62: FearItself  on  04/26  at  03:18 PM

Oops. Forgot the italics. To be clear, the first paragraph in the block quote in the above comment is from my original comment, and the second is Amanda’s response.

Comment #63: FearItself  on  04/26  at  03:20 PM

Commitment doesn’t have any inherent value in itself that I can see. All it is is an internal policeman making sure that people emotionally and independently stop themselves walking away from personal situations that no longer suit them, in a society where stigma and the law have weakened as enforcers of patriarchal relationships.

You never read about “commitment” in 19th century novels - it’s marriage forever or nothing, because that’s the way it used to be. Once that edifice shuddered, and women began to get out of marriage in droves, something had to be done to corall them again - enter the “commitment phobic” man of magazine lore and romantic fiction (actual romantic fiction, not the good stuff that gets tarred with teh same brush - Mr. Darcy proposed twice!), and we’re all blinsided into trotting maniacally down a race course not of our own making, chasing after Mr. Big or his equivalent.

Commitment is a means, not an end. If two people love each other, it’s unnecessary. When they stop, it’s insuficcient.

Comment #64: MarinaS  on  04/27  at  06:24 AM

chuckling, marriage is only a feminist institution if you believe that the only thing a woman could want is a few kids and an older, richer man to support her and the kids.

If a man has kids, he’s obligated to pay child support whether he is married to the woman or not.  Also, if my husband really didn’t love me anymore and wanted to be with a younger woman (if he can find one who will tolerate a 50 year-old body), then I’d rather not be married to him anymore, so I can look for a better man.  Maybe I’ll even be the one to leave and find a 20-something man, and dump the kids off with my ex-husband.

Comment #65: bananacat  on  04/27  at  12:00 PM

Personally, I plan to get married for various legal benefits.  Ideally, my marriage would be me and my boyfriend making a personal agreement to work hard to stay together through tough times.  We wouldn’t even require life-long commitment to each other, because I’d rather have a divorce than be stuck in a pointless marriage, if it ever comes to that.  But if there are kids and insurance involved, it makes things much simpler to get legally hitched.  Then the “wedding” will be a celebration of our love for each other.  Ideally, it would be more like a reception than a wedding ceremony.  And it wouldn’t involve much work for planning, because it would be a casual thing.  We would have it in our home and leave out all the wedding-scam stuff that implies your love is proportional to how much money you waste.  We’ll have pizzas and stuff and it will be more fun for the guests that way too.  The thing the I actually like about weddings is that they bring family members together who don’t see each other often enough, so we would still have that but in a fun, non-traditional way.

Comment #66: bananacat  on  04/27  at  12:17 PM

Like Mighty Ponygirl,  I’m lazy. My approach to the wedding was that a) I don’t pay and b) I don’t organize. And I also did not engage in any traditions (throwing things around, walking around my husband in circles, being announced as Mr. & Mrs, changing my name, having bridesmaids, etc.).

After my own experience with getting married, I came to the conclusion that you can’t have a “feminist” wedding. I think you can have a wedding that is free of really overt patriarchal trappings. That’s the problem with patriarchy - it’s so insidious that it co-opts everything it touches, particularly around family structures, marriage, child-having and child-rearing, etc. Just think of any action that has been considered “feminist” in recent years - having non-traditional wedding, breastfeeding, using formula, having a child at home - there’s a cottage industry that springs up around every one of those things and it always has patriarchal overtones.

I don’t know…After freaking out about weddings/marriage for years, I just came to the conclusion that you just can’t avoid patriarchy creeping into the process, no matter how feminist you are and how good an ally your partner is. The best you can really do is remove the symbols and actions that are the most offensive to you. It then becomes pretty easy to have a wedding that’s free of overt patriarchal trappings and to actually enjoy the process of getting your family and friends together for a party to celebrate your relationship. As someone said upthread, having a feminist marriage - that’s the real issue.

Comment #67: elena  on  04/28  at  02:33 AM

It’s not often I say nice things about my family or where I was raised (Oklahoma), but I do have to say this: everyone I knew regarded weddings as the most important day in the *groom’s* life as well.  And that’s as it should be.  Agreeing to undertake marriage together is a formidable undertaking and you shouldn’t do it lightly. It’s all very important for everybody.

When I got married the first time I was too young (20) and inexperienced to resist all those insidious pressures to cave and conform and “be a good wife”. I ended up in an unhappy place and that marriage didn’t survive.  However when I married my current husband, at the age of 39, I was *much* better placed socially, experientially, monetarily, and everything else-ly, to resist those pressures.  Also, current husband does not pull much of that shit.  He has Asperger’s and has no idea what our gender roles are supposed to be. (Okay, I exaggerate, but not by much.) It’s not perfect, but it’s good.

MKK

Comment #68: Mary Kay  on  04/28  at  08:41 PM

This is timely for me because on Saturday, I didn’t marry my (male, hetero) partner of three years.  After an extremely boring wedding that we went to last year that lacked good food, alcohol, and dancing, we decided to do our own thing, placing primacy on the food/beer and assuming everything else would fall into place, which it very much did.  We exchanged vows, we had friends do readings based on equality in love and what commitment means to us, had an officiant to usher things along, and I just realized that I think we somehow managed to avoid a lot of patriarchal nonsense.  This may have been because we didn’t call it a wedding/non-wedding/commitment ceremony so no one had “wedding” expectations, they had “hippie feminist” expectations.  Oh, right, and the fact that we’re both pretty lazy helped, as was said.  Conforming to gender roles is way too much effort sometimes.

We took a good hard look at our relationship and realized we don’t need to marry at all.  Neither of us have chronic diseases so we don’t need to marry into the better health insurance plan.  We live in the same country so we don’t need immigration benefits.  Although my family certainly doesn’t support not being married (to the point where I just informed an uncle that his hostility to our celebration meant that I won’t speak to him again), their opinions of our relationship aren’t nearly as important to us as our own are.  Aside from a person really super needing better insurance or to move to a country permanently, I’m really confused why people say they need to get married.  Besides those two, what rights/responsibilities are that important?  Hell, even the tax benefits suck when you realize just how much you will lose when you divorce.

I wonder if people get more excited for weddings than other things based on the killing two birds with one stone theory?  You can celebrate *two* friends at a wedding but if one gets a book published in June and another gets a promotion in October, that’s a lot of traveling.

Comment #69: Rachel,II  on  04/29  at  02:20 AM
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