Wow, that’s a pretty asanine and juvenile tweet by Olbermann.

Idealogically, I consider KO to be more progressive ally than foe overall, but his conduct in this matter and certainly in that tweet paint him as a bit of a defensive ass.

Glad to hear that Moore directly credited Sady for his shift on the issue.

I don’t know what to say other than, this is been pretty extraordinary to watch.

When I saw Moore on Olbermann and they were both being idiots about this, I was kind of stunned. I’m not a huge fan of people who are that incredibly partisan, even if they’re partisan about stuff I tend to agree with, because a lot of times I find they get captured by assumptions and beliefs over reality.  But those two are certainly smart enough to have never fallen into this trap in the first place, so what the hell?

Reading TBD during the week and seeing those guys shift, though, it’s like seeing just how much effort it takes to nudge the world a little closer to where it should be, but also that it can be done.

IF this were Olbermann’s first offense, it’d be different, but it’s not.  It’s not his first taste of the victim-blaming apple. A month or so ago, he called the victim of harassment the ‘worst person in the world’ and held up her picture after a bunch of football players harassed her.  And then there’s his Hillary hating. Moore strikes me as the more likely of the two to be reachable. Wolf….she always seemed kind of afraid of getting too angry, cutting her ties to the mainstream.  She seemed aware that she wasn’t a total outcast yet, as you tend to get if you embrace feminism unabashedly. Her attitude is just about as bewildering as, say, Whoopi Goldberg’s was, when she talked about ‘rape-rape’ in regard to that other celeb rape case—-Polanski.

I’m actually a little annoyed that Olbermann is taking this week off (Chris Hayes of The Nation has been guest hosting). I don’t necessarily think his absence has anything to do with this issue, because it’s a holiday week and lots of high-profile talking heads take off during Christmas week. But I kinda wish he was on, because I’m curious to see whether or not he would be willing to address is as Moore had done last night. He has in the past offered apologies and retractions and even included himself on his own “Worst Persons” list, but it’s usually been when he has screwed up the facts when making criticisms directed at a Republican or a conservative.

I have a feeling that whenever he returns to air either next week or maybe the week after, the issue will have mostly faded out of the spotlight and he’ll probably never say another word about it. It would be nice if he would follow in Moore’s footsteps on this, however.

Ironically, she’s being outcast not because of feminism, but because she’s a batshit conspiracy theorist.

IF this were Olbermann’s first offense, it’d be different, but it’s not.

I think that makes the fact he relented towards #mooreandme, to any extent, all the more remarkable, and makes Sady deserving of greater props.

I read that article about Twitter earlier today and I still can’t figure out what that KO tweet even means? It has nothing to do with the issue, and I find it hard to believe that this one tiny userpic is going to encourage anyone to smoke, let alone serve as some kind of anti-feminist ploy to lure women specifically to smoke. He obviously wanted to make a nasty personal slam on Sady and was grasping for straws there. Aside from everything else, KO just really showed himself to be even more of a petulant child than many already believed him to be.

As far as the campaign itself, what else is there to say? It’s amazing that Sady was successful. It’s definitely a victory. But it’s sad and discouraging that it takes a monumental effort to get one man, who should be an ally, to admit that women matter.

Great article on Slate.

I have to wonder, since when is smoking anti-feminist?

We live in a world of grey.  I do not expect perfection from people like KO, Moore, Julian Assange, or even our own Amanda.  There are times when I’ll agree, and there are times when I’ll disagree, and I’m sure if you care to read what I say, you’ll say the same about me.

So, the real question in the grey scale is when do the negatives outweigh the positives?  I suspect those are also different for various people.  Julian’s already been on the edge, and the charges deserve a hearing—he also should have the opportunity to clear his name.  That’s what a court is for.  KO?  Hard to say.  Moore?  He’s always been a demagogue and stands behind what he believes, but he’s also willing to learn, so he’s OK by me.

See, this is what liberalism should be—a willingness to throw away dogma when you admit you’re wrong. Ironic that wingnuts can’t seem to see our opposition to their points as that, rather than pure intransigence. (Of course, considering we’re talking about people who regularly conflate liberalism, socialism, Marxism, and Jacobinism…)

ginmar:

Are you referring to the Ines Sainz flap? I stopped reading our local free sports rag because of the editor’s doing the same thing.

I cried when I first read this.  I can only imagine what Sady must be feeling, she must be overwhelmed emotionally.  She said she was going to keep going until Moore came down and spoke to her, and i thought that was incredibly smart because it immeidately brought to mind Cindy Sheehan, and I bet it did for Moore too.

I’m relieved and happy that Moore was big enough to do this.  I hate those damned grudging apologies and prefer none at all to them.  Good for him.

KO is an asshole, so now i feel that all of those rumors about him being an asshole at work are true. Wolf, it’s hard to even talk about her, but if I ever find out she’s coming to a book signing or anything like that near me, I will be there and not to get her autograph.  Just to tell her face-to-face how she made me feel and how destructive she has been to women.

Amanda, your staunch support of Sady Doyle has been a real inspiration to me.  And I was so disappointed in Michael Moore—until now.  (I’m with Daisy, I hatehatehate those weasly “mistakes were made, I wuz Takenouttacontext, sorry if you misconstrued my noble intentions, blerghy blarghy blurble” non-apologies that Republicans so specialize in.)

How refreshing, a real apology, complete with thanks to the person who corrected and enlightened him!

Many thanks to you and Sady—and hey, Mike, welcome back into this pro-transparency AND anti-sexual-abuse feminist’s good graces.

Love Millicent’s post, love your post on DoubleX.  This protest really gave new meaning to the phrase “mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore”.  It really made a difference—it’s going to make prominent liberals think twice before they dismiss rape accusations or otherwise piss off feminists, its success will give hope to those who wish to call them out for doing so in the future (as Sady points out in her postmortem), and it clarified to a ridiculous extent exactly how much we do live in a rape culture (with the help, as Millicent points out, of the rape apologists and trolls).  Huge props to the many women, and among them the many rape survivors, who put their emotional well-being on the line to make it such a success.

A good portion of the trolls I came across, who criticized Sady for her “offending tone” and supposed lack of civility, for her supposed self-regard and for placing herself at the center of the debate.  To those trolls, I have to say, would #mooreandme been one hundredth of the success it was if Sady had spoken throughout with a disengaged authorial voice that was untrue to the genuine passion she felt, and that she felt others should feel?  If she described injustice in purely technical terms, instead of conveying through her writing style how injustice FEELS?  (I have to say some of the worst trolling was the type that was disguised with an aggressively civil and reasoned tone.)  If she had NOT personalized the story, and to some extent “made it about her”, just as Michael Moore made Roger & Me “about him”?  Do those trolls think half the #mooreandme protesters would have lent their voices on Twitter if Sady hadn’t written her post, “Four Days Outside the Tower.  I’m Scared.  I’m Tired.  I’m Crying.  And I Won’t Stop.”?  I really don’t think so.  To the extent that, of necessity, she made herself a focal point of the protest, she did so brilliantly and effectively, and only to the extent that it would further the cause.  So much so that when, in her postmortem, she says that Michael Moore thanking her is Michael Moore thanking all of the protesters, it really rings true.

Good on MM for getting his head out of his ass and changing his mind honestly and acknowledging why. That’s a million times better and more honest than what KO is doing; seems like for him, such cephalorectal disengagement would require surgery. *sigh*

And of course, cudos to Sady and the many women who made this happen, in the first plce. One battle won.

The trolls went after that because they know women are socialized to feel guilty for getting their due credit.  Sady, I hope, does not.  She deserves to feel proud.

Olbermann has issues with women, flat out.  He is just always on the wrong side of any controversy involving a woman.  It’s his blind spot, and it’s something anyone should keep in mind when dealing with him.

I’m pleased that Moore has justified my highly positive opinion of him by issuing a real apology and doing exactly the right thing, which is to thank someone who tried to keep you from doing something wrong.  Even if they weren’t successful at first, obviously they had your best interests at heart, and it’s your fault you didn’t listen faster.

@Amanda—definitely.  What Sady’s done is huge.  I’m convinced after Millicent’s post that this is kind of a watershed moment in the use of the internet for feminist and liberal protest, and that in addition to being the driving force behind that, she’s helped create a little more space for feminists to express themselves without equivocating to avoid the impression that they’re driven by a desire for recognition (which, honestly, name one notable thing a human being has done in history that hasn’t been driven by such a desire) or that they believe their own individual human experience matters—both of which are sort of unspoken conditions for a woman’s being taken seriously in popular discourse (and which have got to be a huge reason why you see dismissive attitudes towards rape accusations—because accusing someone of rape is a public admission by the accuser that she believes she matters and should be paid attention to).  And of course you and the others in this thriving feminist community on the internet have helped create a safe space for doing that; Keith Olbermann and others in the mainstream seemed taken off guard that so many feminists and pro-feminists were speaking with such powerful, confident, un-“civil” voices, but such a thing doesn’t seem so unusual when you follow this blog, Feministing, Feministe, Amanda Hess, Shakesville, and on and on.  (And I don’t even know who I’m addressing this to, this is nothing new to you or likely anyone else who comments on this blog; I guess I’m excited to see how the #mooreandme movement has helped illustrate and challenge all of these attitudes.)

Which is why I find it a little irksome that Rachel Maddow didn’t mention Sady or even #mooreandme on air (although Maddow gave credit later on her blog), and that Sady isn’t being invited on liberal shows, etc., to talk about her role in this.  It seemed a little bit like a validation of the trolls’ “she just wants attention, don’t encourage her” argument.  (This premise, of course, formed the basic thrust of Olbermann’s, and until yesterday, Moore’s response through the whole thing.)  When honestly, has anyone heard of the term “leader”?  A lot of movements have them, especially the more successful ones.  I guess we’ll see what comes the next couple of weeks.

Sady behaved like, and was, a genuine and excellent leader, simple as.

And the trolls and misogynists just wouldn’t wear a woman in that kind of position, also simple as.

Amanda, your commentary on this has been excellent throughout, and thank you for using the platform you have via Slate and other outlets to help get the message heard.

keep pumping it up, this issue will be dead soon.

here’s another one to practice up on: mumia abu-jamal killed a cop. repeat, ad infinitum.

i’m glad naomi’s not so concerned about popularity contests, “friends” and “being liked”. she’s not the only one that “lost it” during the bush years.

is that really what is all about? the truth is determined by the number of people that say something is true?

you might want to check that rhetoric.

Artistry: 1.0 / 10.0
Technical Merit: 4.0 / 10.0
Novelty: 1.5 /10.0
Relevance: 2.5 / 10.0
Audience Response: 0.5 / 10.0
Overall Troll Score: 1.9 / 10.0

I think a lot of us have KO a pass on his misogyny in the past, because it’s mostly been directed at conservative women.  I know I’ve been guilty of that in the past. 

His naming that female sportscaster a worst person in the world for doing her job wearing less than a burka and getting harassed was beyond the pale. 

Also, I noticed a lot of his “funny” videos, or at least the ones he plays over and over and over, feature women getting hurt, like the German female sportscaster who got hit in the head with a ball. 

This was my last straw.

Moore has always struck me as a person who can admit he is wrong and who understands male privilege.  This is covered in at least one of his books, there is a chapter about male privilege and how hard it is to continue to stay aware of it and how it needs often to be pointed out by a woman.  I am glad he showed his continued ability to learn, admit he was wrong, and graciously thank the woman who pointed it out.

Unfortunately, it strikes me that Olbermann, ever since he decided he was a reborn version of Edward R. Murrow, and maybe before that, is not nearly as good at this realization/recognition/apology/growth behavior, but stays firmly in the denial/anger stage.  He pretty much has to be always right and seems to have an ego the size of Mt. Everest.  Maybe one day a woman he really respects will give him a message that he will be able to hear - I live in hope.

All right, I had to share this here, because it is so… novel.

I caught some shit from male friends for participating in #mooreandme At one point several of them kept making snide comments and I finally said, “Ya’ll might want to unfollow me for a couple of days, because I’m not stopping.”  Then one of them said, “You know, I tweet a bunch of stuff you don’t care about, and you don’t complain. I won’t either.”

The novel part was, today a friend of mine said, “Don’t you worry that tweeting about rape will trigger PTSD in some of your followers?”

sigh

I’m trying to figure out the fuck Mumia Abu-Jamal has to do with Michael Moore’s comments about the rape allegations against Julian Assange.

2.5 is awfully generous for relevance, don’t you think?

Alysia:

Yes. But at least s/he made reference to Naomi Wolf, who was mentioned in the actual post. A lot of them don’t even do that much, so I was feeling magnanimous.

I’m trying to figure out the fuck Mumia Abu-Jamal has to do with Michael Moore’s comments about the rape allegations against Julian Assange.

Yeah. None of the anti-mooreandme protestors seem to get that it was never about declaring Assange guilty.

So, the real question in the grey scale is when do the negatives outweigh the positives?

Well, obviously, James, rape isn’t enough of a negative in your world to matter.

I don’t know if it was noted elsewhere on this blog, but Sady got props for standing up to the rhetoric in The Nation.

http://www.thenation.com/article/157288/case-julian-assange

The heroic Sady Doyle, a blogger at Tiger Beatdown, gets lots of credit for starting a Twitter campaign that forced Moore and Olbermann to—sort of—back off their sexist chortling. But it’s too late: the “revelations” that Sweden has laws against condomless sex and that “Miss A” is a CIA “honeytrap” are all over the left blogosphere. And it isn’t just men who are spreading it. On The Huffington Post, Naomi Wolf posted a satirical letter to Interpol, aka the “World’s Dating Police,” repeating the broken-condom falsehood and adding that Assange’s crimes include “texting and tweeting in the taxi…while on a date and, disgustingly enough, ‘reading stories about himself online’ in the cab.” Is this the same Naomi Wolf who wrote a 2004 New York magazine cover story accusing Harold Bloom of putting his hand on her thigh twenty years previously?