“Their bodies were so close together that there was no room for real affection.”

Um. I’m not going near that site, but this sounds horribly like an attempt at written porn. An anti-sex mockery of porn, which frankly would be a pretty funny idea if someone else had come up with it.

The command that readers “think about it” is one of the most annoying of all Internet traditions.

Ach, why are my eyes bleeding?

Those panties are so funny, I’d buy a pair if it didn’t mean giving money to those abstinence-only fuckers. 

I’ll wait for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence to come up with their own version.

Love how the comment section is closed on every post.

“LALALALALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU I CAN’T HEAR YOU!!!!!!”

Others have attributed the 17 pregnancies to the free day-care center at Gloucester High School and the comprehensive sex education curriculum employed by the school.

I’d find the above more upsetting if the same thing hadn’t all ready been trotted out in the comments at Feministe earlier:

Actually my mother has worked her entire career in a low income school district and she completely blames lenient daycare programs for making teen pregnancy seem like an appealing option to girls who do have a lack of direction. The program in her district provides student mothers with brand spanking new everything, strollers, bags, clothes, toys, etc. Plus they let the mothers carrying around their designer decked babies to their classes like fashionable totes.

Now, I do think that providing daycare opportunities is crucial to getting those teenagers to finish their highschool education but you can definitely go about it in the wrong way. In some cases girls are basically being financially rewarded for having babies in their teens.

It seems like a lot of people, even those who identify as feminists and read feminist blogs believe that treating pregnant teens as people, and trying to help them out v. giving them the old Scarlet Letter Treatment will keep them coming back for more Teen Pregnancy Goodness.

I’m pretty sure 90% of the point of “abstinence” education is to make sure you cannot think of anything other than non-stop fucking.

The other 10% is hating homos.

Maybe I should say this over at Feministe but this - “In some cases girls are basically being financially rewarded for having babies in their teens.” - is shallow thinking at its worst.  Assessments of financial reward assume a thought process that includes “how much am I going to get” and “for how much work”.  From these shallow assumptions about the financial rewards of motherhood, you’d think that all mothers have to do is pop ‘em out, stick ‘em designer clothing and job done!  Anyone who has actually had children, or known anyone who has children, knows that having a baby is actually a 24/7 job, one of the hardest there is.  Unless this commenter is assuming that these young women are all completely stupid (shallow, thoughtless assessment number 2), then the “financial reward” argument is a complete crock.

I can’t wait until the genophobes start marketing the new Ritalin for your kids’ sex drive. When do you suppose they’ll come out with that? I’d bet that these Jeebus’-leg-humping crazies will be lining up in the streets to chemically neuter their kids for fear of wrath from the Invisible Man in the Sky™ should they be *gasp!* caught humping anybody else.

“Others have attributed the 17 pregnancies to the free day-care center

Thank FSM I pulled my daughters out of daycare when I did!!! Whew!!

They were 9 and 6; far too young to be mommies.

But then again, I was also PAYING for teh evul daycare, not free. Hmmm… wonder if that breaks some sort of law.

Others have attributed the 17 pregnancies to the free comprehensive sex education curriculum

I remember when sex ed at my school made me pregnant.  It was a difficult time.  Oh sure, being a single father doesn’t have the stigma attached to it of a single mother, but I had dreams!  Goals!  Plans for my life!  And my parents were shocked.

Yes, but didn’t the National Enquirer buy the rights to your story?

Oh wait… that was Batboy. My bad.

Sorry I’ll have to defend my self here because I wrote the quoted piece.

It seems like a lot of people, even those who identify as feminists and read feminist blogs believe that treating pregnant teens as people, and trying to help them out v. giving them the old Scarlet Letter Treatment will keep them coming back for more Teen Pregnancy Goodness.

As I said I think it’s crucial to provide help.  But do I think giving a $1000 stroller is the way to solve it?  Do I think allowing babies to disrupt class is the way to provide it?  No, get a hand me down stroller and use that money to provide services, like keeping the daycare in good shape, maybe some parenting classes or support groups.  Keep the baby out of class so the mother can actually attempt to get an education.

From these shallow assumptions about the financial rewards of motherhood, you’d think that all mothers have to do is pop ‘em out, stick ‘em designer clothing and job done!  Anyone who has actually had children, or known anyone who has children, knows that having a baby is actually a 24/7 job, one of the hardest there is.

Most of these young women have never had to deal with children, just look at that godawful show on NBC I think about giving teenagers who want kids babysitting duty and how horribly unprepared they are.  Of course all they get to see of other classmates with children are well dressed babies going through the halls like motherhood commercials.  Then you have to add to that the fact that most people underestimate the amount of work that a baby actually takes, even if they have been planning for years and they are thirty-five years old.

For many of these kids getting something like a really expensive stroller is a reward because most of them have never owned anything near that worth and chances of being able to afford so in the future, are not the greatest either because a disturbing large percentage never graduate highschool anyways. Without the proper support in highschool to back up all the giveaways you are creating a situation where the most financially prepared these women will every be to have kids is when they are 16 years old.

So we have a mother who has about a 50% chance of graduating highschool and to help her we’ve given her a really nice stroller and some baby clothes.  Sorry but no, this is not the way to help these women.  Put the money into the daycare, into highschool equivalency programs, into work training, provide discount childcare to new graduates so they can stand a chance at getting a decent job or possibly some post-secondary education; that’s the way to help.

As I said I think it’s crucial to provide help.  But do I think giving a $1000 stroller is the way to solve it?  Do I think allowing babies to disrupt class is the way to provide it?  No, get a hand me down stroller

Wow.  Pregnant teenagers are so not-really-human that they shouldn’t get to have shiny new and functional stuff for their babies, like most pregnant adults deserve.  They should accept hand-me-downs and be grateful they even got that.  And god knows the big thing to worry about is that they are going to sell that $1000 stroller on the black market and use the money to buy meth…

Not to mention, OK, try to think back to when you were a teenager.  What sort of “stuff” did you drool over?  I guess I can’t speak for everyone, but the things I wanted were nicer clothes, cool computer/stereo/tv type gear, maybe a car.  I didn’t keep a stash of back issues of Parents Magazine under the bed so I could flip through the ads and fantasize about the $500 baby bjorn… 

Hypatia, to be honest my main problem is that, unless you are from Gloucester and went to that high school and saw the daycare program for yourself, how do you know what it’s really like?  How do you know how much money is being spent on strollers, or on what condition the girls are allowed to have their babies in class?  How do you know there are no parenting classes or job training?  For that matter, how do you know where the money comes from and how it’s earmarked for use?  It’s always possible that they got a grant from a stroller company that included X amount of their top of the line model.  What are they supposed to do with that, then, sell them on eBay and use the proceeds to buy the girls some shitty old broken down crap from a garage sale?

Unless you were a teen mom at Gloucester High, I don’t really think you have room to pass judgement on how their programs are run.

Okay, in light of the other things wrong this is a minor objection, but isn’t the seventeen number wrong?  The only source I can find for that number is the MSNBC report on the “pregnancy pact” breathless urban-legend acceptance.

I read that blog too…as well as Ladies Against Feminism.  The latter is hilarious sometimes.

Amanda! You show why liberals are such terrible liars! Those 17 pregnancies were not the result of a sperm cell uniting with an egg 17 times! It required at least 17 distinct sperm cells, and 17 different egg cells! And that proves that you lying liberals can’t be trusted and, you know, would you want to suck on a lollypop someone else has just finished sucking on? Or chew some gum someone else had chewed? Or sucked on a lollypop someone else had chewed, probably to get to the soft chewy center, only to realize it wasn’t a Tootsie-Pop? (Moreover, would you really want to suck on anything an owl had chomped?)

Um. Where was I?

So, anyway, does the job of chastity blogger pay well? And am I showing appropriate levels of outrage?

Oh, this isn’t the job interview. Damn.

I would further contend that the “used strollers! tattered diaper bags!” method of helping teen moms is just a slightly more socially palatable version of that Scarlet A. (or F, for fucking?)

It says to all concerned: I made poor choices and don’t REALLY deserve this help that all these Nice, Kind, Generous people have given me. They’re really just too, too good. No really. Pats on the back, you Nice Kind Generous People.

Others have attributed the 17 pregnancies to the free day-care center

That’s about as stupid as the theory that subsidised health care would encourage people to engage in more risky sports such as parachuting.

The 1000$ stroller comments remind me of one of my favorite books as a kid. A filthy rich little heiress loses her wealthy father, and her boarding school makes her pick one black, too small shabby dress and throws the rest of her clothing away. The clothing was already paid for, it was just so she knows her place.

That would be A Little Princess, no?

I seem to remember, though, that the things were sold because she had outstanding debts to the school.  But you’re right that the real point was that they only let her keep one ill-fitting black dress.  I think they also made her be a scullery maid and live in the attic.

Unless you’re talking about a different book with a similar plot, of course.

Wow.  Pregnant teenagers are so not-really-human that they shouldn’t get to have shiny new and functional stuff for their babies, like most pregnant adults deserve.  They should accept hand-me-downs and be grateful they even got that.  And god knows the big thing to worry about is that they are going to sell that $1000 stroller on the black market and use the money to buy meth…

Wow Opoponax could you possible misinterpret that more? Seriously WTF.  You going to immediately insinuate that I was trying to call them meth addicts…wow just wow… straw men are fun I guess.

First things first.  I never even passed judgement on the Gloucester High system, I didn’t say whether it was good bad or in the middle, the original comment was simply to point out that in school daycares can be run improperly.  The example was the school my mother has worked at, which is in a bloody different country.

Two, well again I just have to say WTF.  You don’t think $1000 dollars could be better spent on, I don’t know, the actual damn daycare?  I didn’t know I was such an undeserving middle-class child when I was growing up I mean, I must have suffered to wear hand me downs as a child.  Guess what, when you have young children, hand me downs are pretty much a fact of life.  This isn’t about shaming people, this is about reusing what is still perfectly good and saving money.  Unless my married, middle class mother also needed to be “shamed” because I slept in a hand me down crib.

How do you know how much money is being spent on strollers, or on what condition the girls are allowed to have their babies in class?  How do you know there are no parenting classes or job training?  For that matter, how do you know where the money comes from and how it’s earmarked for use?

Again I will point out that I know the program that I was speaking about, (once again not Gloucester) because my mother worked there.  It’s policy that the women are allowed to have their children with them,  I know that there are no classes or job training, I know that nearly all the money comes from the government. Etc. etc. etc.  If you had examined the post you would have realized this.

I would further contend that the “used strollers! tattered diaper bags!” method of helping teen moms is just a slightly more socially palatable version of that Scarlet A.

There was no mention that they had to be in bad condition.  Damn, no wonder the environment is fucked.  All of this “Oh my god I couldn’t possible touch an item that has been used before, it’s shameful!”  Seriously you both need to grow up and reassess your wasteful attitudes.  I don’t find it shameful. I would gladly line up for a cheaper used stroller, when that pregnancy test comes back positive I’m surfing over to Craigslists, over 50% of the big ticket items in my own home are “previously loved” as they like to say.

Again $1000 dollars for a stroller, do you people actually think that’s reasonable?  Especially when you can afford one that is new for a third of that?

The example was the school my mother has worked at, which is in a bloody different country.

For what it’s worth, my response to you was based on the assumption (assumption, yes), that you’d developed all these opinions based on something you’d read about Gloucester specifically or high school daycare programs in general.  TV newsmagazines earn their bread and butter by dropping factoids like that: “some high school somewhere with a daycare program gave the mothers fancy strollers!  the gall!” and expecting the viewers to draw conclusions that play on stereotypes and common misconceptions, resulting in some kneejerk reaction like “in-school daycare causes more teen pregnancies”. 

So, ultimately, the question is, wtf could you possibly know about it?  The only people who have any place to have an opinion about high school daycare centers and how they’re run are those who’ve been personally involved.  Which still doesn’t include you, by the way.  If I had a dime for every malicious story I’ve heard that started with, “My mom used to work at this school where…” or “My dad was a cop in X town, and…”, I certainly wouldn’t be sharing a tiny apartment half a mile from the subway in Brooklyn, I can tell you that.

I know everything about it (again that particular school) because my mother worked in the damn system and I’ve devoted my time to that daycare many a time. I’m sorry but people besides teenage mothers get to judge whether or not a system is meeting the actual needs of the school efficiently and effectively. I never said my mother has this experience, therefore every high school daycare sucks, I never even came close to it. I was quoted out of context. I actually defended highschool daycare. I was warning against money mismanagement, perpetuating the image that it’s easy work being a mom, and policies that are detrimental to their education.

Hypatia-

Where, exactly is the program you know so intimately?  You keep saying it isn’t Glouchester, but I don’t recall you ever saying exactly where it is.

Explain to me again, slowly, why teen mothers beeing given new baby items will make them more likely to be… teen mothers?  Aren’t they all ready, by default, teen mothers?  If someone has all ready done something once, woudn’t it stand to reason that they are all ready more likely to do it again? All of the circumstances that led to the first pregnancy have probably not just gone away. And if a new stroller is enough to tip the scales, I’ve got to think it has to do with what I said in my comment on the Feministe thread earlier. The social pressures on teen girls that make them feel inadequate and spur them on to conspicuous consumption are the real culprits, not nice strollers.

The $1000 stroller thing makes me laugh, a little.  It’s an urban legend in the making. It reminds me a lot of Regan’s $600 toilet seats.  If a school system is really giving away $1000 strollers, I think it is logical to conclude that : a. they have been given some steep discounts on them; or b. the school system (like Regan) is guilty of gross mismanagement.  Neither of those things, in and of themselves, is an indictment of giving teen mothers good baby items as a part of a program to help them out.

And finally, your arguments for secondhand baby items being “good enough” for these teen mothers because they were “good enough” for your family reek of middle-class entitlement.  I mean, if anyone “deserves” new baby stuff, it’s middle-class folks, and if they can’t have those things, no one else should, either.  Right?

There are lots of good reasons to give out new baby items and not used ones- one of the best I can think of is liability.  With all of the recalls and problems with children’s items, I can honestly say I would think twice about accepting OR giving out second hand baby items these days.  Any school system is probably going to arrive at the same conclusion.  And on a purely personal note, I believe the teen mother should win the “$1000 stroller lottery” over the middle class mother any day because the $1000 stroller is probably going to mean more to the teen mother.  Having been a middle-class mother of a baby, I can honestly say having a nice stroller can be helpful, but it’s not essential.  I have a car, a family network to help me out, I had baby seats and snuggli carriers- in other words, I had options.  Teen mothers often don’t have as many options, and that means they depend on what they do have all the more. I’d gladly earmark my tax money for $1000 strollers for teen mothers any day of the week.

There are lots of good reasons to give out new baby items and not used ones- one of the best I can think of is liability.  With all of the recalls and problems with children’s items, I can honestly say I would think twice about accepting OR giving out second hand baby items these days.  Any school system is probably going to arrive at the same conclusion.

I also think there’s a huge difference between people deciding how to best spend their own money, figuring, “hey, the Joneses still have their old high chair from when Suzy was born, and it seems to be in pretty good condtion…” vs. “We are doling out secondhand strollers, and that is what you are getting whether you like it or not.”  I would also guess that it’s probably easier to score 10 strollers through some kind of arrangement with a local store or stroller manufacturer than it is to scare up 10 secondhand strollers which are in good condition and don’t have recall issues etc etc etc.  What, are you going to knock on every door in town and demand a stroller? 

I would also look at other programs where schools give handouts of supplies to students, and ask why Hypatia doesn’t think poor beneficiaries of these programs deserve secondhand items.  Why give a $50 brand new backpack, when you can probably find one for $3.50 at Salvation Army?  Why buy new sports equipment when you can strike a deal with the private school up the road for their castoffs from last year?

It’s a wonder Hypatia hasn’t started a local school lunch program where the poor kids get leftovers brought in from home by the rich kids.

We own a $200 stroller. It survived one kid, it might well survive a second (if I can avoid doing the stuff that made a couple of tires fall off). Then we’ll give it to a friend or acquaintance who needs one. People with $800 strollers are far more likely to have them still in good condition and available for donation (as are stores that sell $800 strollers when the new model year rolls around).

Oh, and the teen mother in our circle of friends (never did finish high school) loved to dress her infant in frilly clothes and give her “princess” toys to play with, but that wasn’t why she got pregnant, or even why she didn’t get an abortion. Those reasons completely predated any sign of the kid.

The idea that the only person who can have an opinion about a government sponsored program is a recipient of it is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.

Every tax payer/voter that touches the program through those activities has an important opinion about it.

And this comes from someone who fully supports comprehensive sex ed as well as programs to ensure that teen mothers receive every educational opportunity.

Where, exactly is the program you know so intimately?  You keep saying it isn’t Glouchester, but I don’t recall you ever saying exactly where it is.

Why is this relevant? Obviously you should realize that I can’t give you the exact location as it could get my family in a little bit of trouble. It’s in Ontario.

Explain to me again, slowly, why teen mothers beeing given new baby items will make them more likely to be… teen mothers?<>

<i>b. the school system (like Regan) is guilty of gross mismanagement.

DING DING DING We have a bloody winner.  What was I arguing? Oh yeah, the fact that these programs can be mismanaged.

And finally, your arguments for secondhand baby items being “good enough” for these teen mothers because they were “good enough” for your family reek of middle-class entitlement.  I mean, if anyone “deserves” new baby stuff, it’s middle-class folks, and if they can’t have those things, no one else should, either.  Right?

Oh seriously you just need to STFU.  I don’t think anyone deserves anything, and used items are fucking good enough for fucking anybody.  I love how this works, I’m entitled because I think second-hand items are ok for teen mothers; I’m also entitled if I think second-hand items are ok for myself, or the middle class (which I’m not one of at the moment thank you very much);  am I also entitled if I think Bill Gates could get by with a second hand bike?  I guess I should go down the street and berate Good Will for being so entitled, I mean if the very association of the words second-hand mean entitled, nothing can be more entitled then fucking selling the stuff.

I don’t consider myself above anyone in anyway. I would also just like to point out that if you read my post the reasoning was very much waste reduction.  If you think second-hand items have such a stigma attached that’s your own damn problem.  Actually you know what, this “come up with a bullshit theory about people you don’t even know” is fun.  Let me try it.  You have a problem with second-hand items because obviously second-hand items are only for people who can’t afford new items, aka, the poor, and you’re a classist. Of course we also know that minorities are some of the poorest people, so you’re also a racist.  Hey, this is fun!

With all of the recalls and problems with children’s items, I can honestly say I would think twice about accepting OR giving out second hand baby items these days.

Sorry but there are plenty of items that a) won’t have major safety concerns and b) if you spend $300 on some strollers instead you can hire someone to look over the recall lists and check over items for damage.

And on a purely personal note, I believe the teen mother should win the “$1000 stroller lottery” over the middle class mother any day because the $1000 stroller is probably going to mean more to the teen mother.

Funny thing, I would too but that doesn’t mean it’s appropriate for a school program to be run that way.

I’d gladly earmark my tax money for $1000 strollers for teen mothers any day of the week.

Good for you, but again, if I can pay $300 for a perfectly good, yes even brand new, stroller I would rather that the other $700 go towards job training or further education so the mother can actually have a decent future.

It’s a wonder Hypatia hasn’t started a local school lunch program where the poor kids get leftovers brought in from home by the rich kids.

Please start labeling yourself “the straw man” because that’s all you can really contribute.

Any linky on the $1000 teen-mom stroller? Or are we just rehashing Reagan’s “welfare queens driving Cadillacs” lie?

“The school my mom woked at….” crap. 
No links, and no specifics because that might cause the mother trouble somewhere in Onterio.

My daughter attended an alternative high school that had a day care center for the teen moms.  She came home one day and said that spending a couple of hours in the center GUARANTEED that she had no interest becoming a mother any time in her lifetime.  She might change her mind, of course, but at least she recognized that having a baby wasn’t just a fashion-accessory fad.

Wow, fill in the blank: “Buying a house can wait till marriage.  Will you?”
Eating your vegetables…
Getting a pet…
Driving…
Drinking beer…
Voting…
Travel…

etc.

It’s just so…meaningless.  Of course one CAN postpone sex (or many other activities) until marriage.  But what that billboard needs is a compelling REASON to.