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Next entry: Most blog posts ever on a TV show the blogger has never watched Previous entry: Junk touching

More thoughts on junk touching

Why is all this happening with the TSA searches?  Why now? It’s a good question.  There’s some confusion about whether or not the body scan or the invasive pat downs are separate issues, which is giving Will Saletan an excuse to say that people should just acquiesce to the scanner and stop throwing fits. But the problem is that they escalated the amount of groping you have to endure if you say you don’t want to be scanned.  Plus, there’s a problem with framing this as a choice, as Lindsay notes.

Saletan purports to be an expert on applied ethics, yet he is blind to the sexualized coercion implicit in the “choice” between allowing a stranger in another room to see your naked body vs. having your junk touched.

She expresses a concern that a National Opt-Out Day would be used not to stop the searches, but to privatize the searches.  That’s a distinct possibility, but I think it’s true regardless of how people protest.  If opt-out days actually are organized effectively, they can be used as protests against whoever the hell is groping people in airports, so I’m coming around to the idea that it might be a good idea.  My main concern is that opt-outers will be seen by non-opting-out passengers as the enemy, and the point of the protest could be lost.  But the problem of backlash is true of any protest.

Anyway, more Lindsay:

Ostensibly giving passengers a choice between a scan and a pat-down makes the invasion of privacy seem more acceptable. It gives the passenger the illusion of control. We’re so busy playing “scan or grope?” that we forget to ask why we’re paying for scanners the TSA can’t even justify with a cost-benefit analysis.

This is the way it works.  Invasions of basic privacy are tied to “choice”, to make it easier for people to blame the victim.  You’re seeing this in action here with some people saying, “Well, you don’t have to fly,” and certainly with the “choice” between the scanner and the groping.  But, as Lindsay explains, that doesn’t quite work, since sometimes you’re groped after the scan, and some airports don’t have scanners, making the grope mandatory.  The “you don’t have to fly” thing is also bullshit, but it’s precisely the kind of bullshit women have been putting up with for millenia when it comes to restraints put on our freedom of movement and association.  If you get raped, well, it was your choice to go out without supervision/and drink/wearing that.  Obviously, restrictions on woman’s access to abortion and contraception are justified by saying you had the choice to keep your legs shut.  And so on.  This is why “women’s issues” are inseparable from police state issues, or letting a bunch of assholes work as a voluntary police abuse force of rapists.

So why now?  There’s another reason for the false choice.  Lindsay again:

My theory is that the agency wants to bully people into submitting to their very expensive and unpopular new toys…..

The new body search procedure seems designed to make the scanners look attractive by comparison.

When you tell people, get the scan or we’ll grab your genitals, you’ll take the former.  Why is it so important that people take the former?  To save time, for one, which is why the protest being suggested is to jam up the works by having people in large groups demand the pat down.  But I suspect there’s another reason, as well.  (Via.)

The companies with multimillion-dollar contracts to supply American airports with body-scanning machines more than doubled their spending on lobbying in the past five years and hired several high-profile former government officials to advance their causes in Washington, government records show.

L-3 Communications, which has sold $39.7 million worth of the machines to the federal government, spent $4.3 million trying to influence Congress and federal agencies during the first nine months of this year, up from $2.1 million in 2005, lobbying data compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics show. Its lobbyists include Linda Daschle, a former Federal Aviation Administration official.

Rapiscan Systems, meanwhile, has spent $271,500 on lobbying so far this year, compared with $80,000 five years earlier. It has faced criticism for hiring Michael Chertoff, the former Homeland Security secretary, last year. Chertoff has been a prominent proponent of using scanners to foil terrorism. The government has spent $41.2 million with Rapiscan.

You know you’ve fucked with privileged people when USA Today suddenly starts engaging in the investigative journalism of government corruption that you usually only find in places like The Nation.

Point is, there’s a lot of money to be made by selling scanners to airports.  And there’s a revolving door between people who work in high levels of government and those profiting off selling these devices.  It’s in the financial interest of these corporations that are lobbying the hell out of this to have you told that you use their products or you have your junk touched. 

Yep, we seem to have reached that stage of capitalism where sexual abuse is being used as a threat to get people (taxpayers in this case) to spend money to pad corporate profits. I wonder, once wingnut America figures that one out, if they’ll calm down with the outrage?  I mean, the free market is why you have to submit to the groping!  Suggesting your privacy comes before their profits is just as good as saying that you’re a dirty commie, didn’t you know?

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:14 PM • (121) Comments

With any luck, this will be a windfall for Amtrak.

Comment #1: Eric_RoM  on  11/23  at  08:22 PM

Suggesting your privacy comes before their profits is just as good as saying that you’re a dirty commie, didn’t you know?

I am offended by that epithet!  I showered this morning, I am a clean commie!

Comment #2: James  on  11/23  at  08:33 PM

From the comments in Jezebel:

They came first for the Muslim’s junk,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Muslim.

Then they came for the black’s junk,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t black.

Then they came for the women’s junk,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a woman.

Then they came for my junk…

…and I kicked up a huge fuss and demanded that they cut it out because it was infringing upon my freedom and goddammit you should listen to me because I’m a white dude and I and I alone have domain over my junk!

Read more: http://jezebel.com/comment/32890660/#ixzz169V7ilNh

Oh and by the by, USA is covering this because there’s a Democrat (if Blue Dog, sigh) president involved, AND CONSERVATIVE WHITE GUYS ARE KICKING UP A FUSS.

Comment #3: judybrowni  on  11/23  at  08:47 PM

When you tell people, get the scan or we’ll grab your genitals, you’ll take the former.

This.  I have a medical implant that makes metal detectors rather dangerous for me (I prefer not having a seizure, thankyouverymuch), so I’ve been dealing with the “enhanced pat-downs” for… I dunno, 7 years?  When the scanners started getting rolled out, I’ll admit I was stoked, at least at some airports.  When they gave me the option of scan or grope, I’d take the scan every time.  Some airports, like BWI, are staffed with complete fuckwits, who insist on both.  (Framed as choice, natch.  I chose to not go through the metal detector, nevermind it would have a non-trivial chance of killing me, so it’s my choice to put up with any indignity.)  But, yeah, that binary choice is very <strike>convincing</strike> coercive.

Having dealt with the gropings* for a while, I’m conflicted.  On the one hand, I’m glad the fucked-uppedness is starting to get noticed, and I hope it leads to stopping this shit.  On the other hand, being selfish, if you get rid of the scanners and pat-downs, nothing changes for me, and most of the people bitching about this now would have had no sympathy for me a few months ago (not pointing any fingers here—directed at the general population that didn’t give a shit until ZOMG THEY MIGHT FIND OUT HOW SMALL MY PENIS IS).  So the little revenge gremlin in my heart says “enjoy what you asked for, motherfuckers”, but, ultimately… shit’s gotta stop.

* In fairness, I should note that my experiences have been highly variable.  Occasionally I’d get lucky and have a screener who knew what was up and did their best to make it as quick and non-awkward as possible (thank you, TSA guy with a pin in your knee, you understand).  A lot of times, the TSA people were just assholes and petty despots, not out to molest, per se, but just out to make some lives miserable.  I’m not sure if it’s right to say I’ve been actually molested by airport security ever, but there’s one incident that was distinctly violating and my insistence to myself that it doesn’t count feels hollow.

Comment #4: Jewbacca  on  11/23  at  09:02 PM

I didn’t check the date on the USA Today article, but there was a blurb about the lobbying of the scanner manufacturers in an edition of The Nation from like 5 or 6 weeks ago.

Since you mentioned it…

Comment #5: Caelan Aegana  on  11/23  at  09:15 PM

With any luck, this will be a windfall for Amtrak.

I honestly looked at Amtrak for a conference I have coming up in St. Louis. I would have to go through Chicago, from North Dakota, and it would take me about 22 hours. Nope, not going to happen.

Comment #6: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  11/23  at  09:20 PM

As for taking the scanner over a grope: no choice for me, there’s cancer in my family and I’m 60.

I don’t have the links, but the radiation levels of the body scan: well, you might just not want to subject yourself.

Comment #7: judybrowni  on  11/23  at  09:22 PM

judybrowni,

Here are the two best links I’ve found:

The UCSF letter:

http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2010/05/17/concern.pdf

Congressman Holt and Dr. Brenner:

http://holt.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=651&Itemid=18

I’m concerned about the radiation too, as are family members of mine who are kinda experts on radiation in the medical context.

Comment #8: Ismone  on  11/23  at  09:30 PM

People I follow on Twitter have speculated that another reason this story is getting legs is that it’s being used to set up a push to privatize TSA functions.  If true, then I guess Halliburton has decided to finally take us literally by the short and curlies.

Comment #9: damnedyankee  on  11/23  at  09:45 PM

damnedyankee,

I hope not.  In any event, even if it is privatized, eventually, I think constitutional strictures would have to apply to private actors, as they did in the company store/company town context.

Comment #10: Ismone  on  11/23  at  09:48 PM

My uncle has a pace-maker and therefore cannot go through the full-body scanners. He flew this weekend and said that it was akin to a testicular exam.

I think that you (and Lindsey) are absolutely right: this is about supporting the military industrial complex not about security and making the groping so odious that most will opt into the full body scanners to avoid molestation is the purpose of the touching of our proverbial junk. But of course there are people like my uncle who cannot opt out thus are forced into these searches and molestation whenever they fly.

Comment #11: Thealogian  on  11/23  at  09:57 PM

Don’t forget everyone’s favorite milquetoast liberal!  Kevin Drum has come out for the intrusive TSA screening because, well because!  Hey if they bring down a plane it will be worse!  So under that special Drum logic we must give in to useless screening to keep draconian screening from happening otherwise.  The fact that the screening does nothing to protect us and they’ll be an attack at some point anyway is beside the point.  Can’t believe with Drum’s ability to surrender pre-emptively he isn’t part of the Obama administration yet.

http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/11/my-tsa-anti-rant

Comment #12: Robert  on  11/23  at  10:03 PM

Of course constitutional requirements would still apply to private equivalents of the TSA, but the route to enforcing your rights would be convoluted at best (my understanding for private prisons, for example, is that in some cases you can sue the prison directly, but in others you have to sue the state for putting you in a private prison, and then the state has to order the private prison to develop a plan to comply with the constitution, and some decades later, assuming you haven’t been released in the meantime, something may happen). The big thing about privatization is that it would bring back the opportunity for graft to local governments and whoever runs the airport authority.

But I’m not sure that even with private enterprise at stake the wingnuts will necessarily be convinced to go along. All of these new gadgets were invented by pointy-headed intellectuals.

Comment #13: paul  on  11/23  at  10:08 PM

AS I said in the other thread, though half my posts didn’t post—I have two little girls who get lead aprons for DENTAL X-RAYS.  WTF thought it was okay to irradiate children?  Or was it a case of the men not thinking about women and children again?

Remember air bags and how short women were “sitting too close” to the steering wheel?  How can there be a too close?  If the seat moves that far, I should be safe in it.  And “short women” were defined as 5’4” and shorter.  The average American woman at the time was 5’4”, and was “too short” for the designers.

What do I do?  I don’t want them groped and I don’t want them irradiated.

Comment #14: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/23  at  10:08 PM

If you don’t want them irradiated, don’t fly.  Honestly, airplanes put people high in the atmosphere and that alone exposes them to radiation.  You can argue about the efficiency of the scanners all you like, but this is like worrying about the caloric count of an appetizer before eating six cheeseburgers.

The scanners can’t detect all the explosive material, while metal detectors can’t pick up all things that work as weapons.  Grope checks can only find stuff in the places that get groped, and it’s not a pleasant thought but certainly possible to kiester enough bomb ingredients to disable a plane.  So really, what’s a Transportation Security Agency to do?  I can’t say.  There’s always a way to get through security if there’s a desire to do so, especially if someone is willing to die in the process.

We won’t get another 9/11-style attack because the cockpit doors are secure.  We won’t get another shoebomber, since we check shoes.  The underwear attack happened because all the liquids were being disallowed after another attack, and the security measures made that attempt worth trying.  Security is more reactive than proactive, as it will always have to be on some level.  The attempts that failed didn’t work out because of two things: bad bomb design and passengers who knew that the bomber must be stopped.  The 9/11 hijackers pretty much ruined it for all Muslim hijackers forever, since there’s just no way people are ever going to stay calm and hope for the best.

But that’s not good enough.  When, not if, another plane goes down, there will be a political price to pay that no one really wants.  We’ll hear the cry of “Why didn’t we just do the naked flying thing?” and “Why don’t we screen Muslims just a little more?” (regardless of the terrorists’ background.)  And whoever is in charge will be blamed (which is why anyone with any sense of how things would work has to assume that the scanned images are saved along with security camera footage to know exactly who went through when and what was missed by the screening personnel and who they were.)

And while it’s certainly a false choice between the scanner and the groping, it’s also a false choice between security and body autonomy.  At some point the question became not “Will you be willing to give up some rights to fly?” but “How many?”  That horse is out of the barn, galloping in another county already.

Comment #15: 3letterjon  on  11/23  at  10:45 PM

3letterjon-

Different type of radiation, so it’s not really a fair comparison.

Comment #16: Antigone  on  11/23  at  11:02 PM

Non-ionizing radiation has never been proven to be dangerous except at levels where actual heating occurs. Still. I’m kind of looking forward to the pat downs, but that’s just me.

Comment #17: pablo  on  11/23  at  11:10 PM

It’s a fair comparison, unless there’s some new electromagnetic spectrum that’s been patented by those government contractors.

Comment #18: 3letterjon  on  11/23  at  11:17 PM

Rapiscan Systems, meanwhile, has spent $271,500 on lobbying so far this year

Rape-a-scan?  Are you fucking kidding me?

At least they can’t be accused of false advertising.

Comment #19: Sour Kraut  on  11/23  at  11:25 PM

Rapiscan Systems

Has there ever been a more aptly named corporation - Rape-i-scan Systems.

Comment #20: Ms Kate  on  11/23  at  11:30 PM

Are they putting kids through these things now?  They were directing kids 12 and under around them the last time we flew.

Comment #21: Ms Kate  on  11/23  at  11:34 PM

3letterjohn.

Stop me if I’ve heard this one before.

See also “there is no conceivable physiologic mechanism by which air pollution can cause heart attacks”.

and ... and ... and ...

We simply have not had this sort of mass exposure before - and I don’t see the employees wearing any sort of dosimeter badges, either (don’t tell me that these things will never leak, or malfunction or that they have been ‘‘proven” safe.  As a scientist and epidemiologist, I am aware of a long history of “perfectly safe you silly fool (head pat)” turning into something else).

Comment #22: Ms Kate  on  11/23  at  11:42 PM

@pablo: X-rays are ionizing.  You’re thinking of the millimeter wave machines.  Different machines, different technical issues; same nekkid pictures that somehow miss 12-inch razor blades.

Comment #24: Jewbacca  on  11/23  at  11:54 PM

Ismone @ 8.  Hmm, the letter from the UCSF folks definitely has me leaning toward the grope instead of the scan.  Apparently, while the total amount of energy involved is small compared to what you get from exposure to comic rays during the flight, because the body scanner’s X-rays are so low-energy almost all of said energy is absorbed by the skin, which doesn’t have much volume, and hence the effect might be worse than you’d naively expect.

Comment #25: topometropolis  on  11/23  at  11:57 PM

“I wonder, once wingnut America figures that one out, if they’ll calm down with the outrage?  I mean, the free market is why you have to submit to the groping!  Suggesting your privacy comes before their profits is just as good as saying that you’re a dirty commie, didn’t you know?”

I’m guessing they will use the “no true free marketer” bullshit line then.  The free market is like an abstract concept that will never come, but will be used by its supporters as a means to an end.  Sure to a rational liberal your sentence makes sense, but to someone deluded in the myth of the free market, it doesn’t make sense.  As soon as the government gets involved for better or worse, there goes the whole free market concept.  Since every business decision involves some sort of government involvement, there can never be a free market and it is a myth.  It’s like the whole “no true conservative” argument.

Comment #26: Albert Cirrus  on  11/23  at  11:59 PM

My biggest concern about traveling with my kids is the example this sets of subservience to the security state. I mean, I don’t want them to think this is okay, cause it’s not, but I also want us to get to the grandparents’ house with a minimum of trouble.

But I’m not convinced these machines are completely safe, and given shoddy training and oversight, I’m even less convinced that they’ll always be correctly calibrated, and given that they’re steering pregnant women away from them, I’m not thrilled about putting my kids’ still developing bodies in the way of these things.

They’re saying now that kids under 12 are exempt from the patdowns. Can I opt my kids out of the scan without subjecting them to the patdown? (And hope that by the time they’re 13, we’ll be doing something differently.)

If push comes to shove, I’ll probably take the maybe small radiation risk of the scans over the very likely upsetting pat-downs.

Comment #27: chingona  on  11/24  at  12:12 AM

Oh, and if we’re all getting zapped with x-ray vision, can we keep our shoes on?

Comment #28: chingona  on  11/24  at  12:13 AM

It’s a fair comparison, unless there’s some new electromagnetic spectrum that’s been patented by those government contractors.


So you think the power spectrum doesn’t matter at all?  Son, I am disappoint.

But I do want to thank you for your first paragraph, 3letterjon.  It’s a wonderful example of a particularly annoying form of glibertarian physics envy: half-remembered freshman (if that) physics used to authoritatively brush aside legitimate concerns.

To wit, from the DFHs at UCSF:

The physics of these X-rays is very telling: the X-rays are Compton-Scattering off outer molecule bonding electrons and thus inelastic (likely breaking bonds).
Unlike other scanners, these new devices operate at relatively low beam energies (28keV). The majority of their energy is delivered to the skin and the underlying tissue. Thus, while the dose would be safe if it were distributed throughout the volume of the entire body, the dose to the skin may be dangerously high.
The X-ray dose from these devices has often been compared in the media to the cosmic ray exposure inherent to airplane travel or that of a chest X-ray. However, this comparison is very misleading: both the air travel cosmic ray exposure and chest Xrays have much higher X-ray energies [higher-energy X-rays often means less harmful, as they are more likely to simply pass through without absorption—Jewbacca] and the health consequences are appropriately understood in terms of the whole body volume dose. In contrast, these new airport scanners are largely depositing their energy into the skin and immediately adjacent tissue, and since this is such a small fraction of body weight/vol, possibly by one to two orders of magnitude, the real dose to the skin is now high.


Hey, take a couple orders of magnitude off the body mass it’s distributed to, add a couple orders of magnitude to the dose (per Rep. Holt’s letter, some machines are known to expose targets to 20 times the alleged dose, and that’s without TSA mouthbreathers at the switch), and pretty soon you’re talking out your ass and off by a factor of 10,000.

Comment #29: Jewbacca  on  11/24  at  12:18 AM

They came first for the Muslim’s junk,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Muslim.

Then they came for the black’s junk,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t black.

cigarettes electronic

Then they came for the women’s junk,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a woman.

Comment #30: electronic cigarette  on  11/24  at  12:18 AM

Then they came for the spambots,
and I was like, fuck yeah, get those motherfucking spambots.

Comment #31: mr_subjunctive  on  11/24  at  12:39 AM

#31

LOL!

Comment #32: BeanS  on  11/24  at  12:47 AM

That’s a pretty clever spambot, though, gotta admit.  And 3letterjon, see the ucsf letter.

Comment #33: Ismone  on  11/24  at  12:47 AM

Seriously? You all sound like REPUBLICAN Rick Santorum or Limbaugh on FoxNews

http://www.foxnewsinsider.com/2010/11/19/santorum-government-giving-into-terrorists-with-pat-downs

*radiation levels
*terrorists have won
*junk touchin’


It’s creepy! Righties and lefties talkin’ like they’re the same!!!!Twilight Zone!

Comment #34: BeanS  on  11/24  at  12:51 AM

They’re saying now that kids under 12 are exempt from the patdowns.

“I’m eleven.  Touch me and I’ll sue for child abuse.”

- “Sir, you have a bald spot and you’re wearing bifocals.”

“So, what - you’re a child development expert now?  I’m eleven!”

- “Do you have anyone who can vouch for you?”

“Yeah - my wife is right over there.”

Comment #35: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/24  at  12:53 AM

Then they came for the spambots,
and I was like, fuck yeah, get those motherfucking spambots. http://www.uggbootsestorede.com/

Comment #36: liumingzhu  on  11/24  at  12:55 AM

I certainly don’t know as much as the UCSF professors, but they are using a lot of “may” and “could” in their analysis of the scanners.  It sounds potentially scary, as it should, but they’re pretty much saying that further study is warranted rather than labeling the machines as cancer-causing.  Lower energy scans that might just go into the skin and just a little deeper may or may not have the ability to disrupt cells enough to cause cancer.  That’s what they’re saying.  Can it?  Sure it can.  Will it?  Unsure.  Is it worse than air travel itself?  Maybe.  From what I know about radiation, it’s cumulative exposure.  That makes the low energy and high energy comparisons comparable in the first place, and while I’m sure it’s a good idea to study, I’m still not convinced that the danger is greater than the activity (flying) itself.  For most travelers, it really won’t make much of a difference even if it is 20 times worse than advertised, as that can be made or lost in a few extra afternoons of gardening over the course of many years.

Comment #37: 3letterjon  on  11/24  at  12:59 AM

is 36 a joke? or is it the most ironic spambot ever?

Comment #38: alysia  on  11/24  at  12:59 AM

It’s way better if it’s ironic, so I’m hoping for ironic. Not going to click the link to find out.

Comment #39: mr_subjunctive  on  11/24  at  01:04 AM

#27,
I just came from FoxNews.com where a teabagger was talking the same way. Perhaps you should pull some awesome American commando karate moves on the TSA agent? Just a little weirded out because though my address bar says I’m at pandagon.net I still think that I’m at foxnews.com.

I’m also a little curious is a TSA agent a “blue collar” job? How do you not know that these aren’t just desperate people who have taken a tough and disliked job due to the economy? If it is a low paying job isn’t it a bit classist to simply hate on them for getting some work and supporting themselves with what they can pull together?

Comment #40: BeanS  on  11/24  at  01:04 AM

“In summary, if the key data (flux-integrated photons per unit values) were available, it
would be straightforward to accurately model the dose being deposited in the skin and
adjacent tissues using available computer codes, which would resolve the potential
concerns over radiation damage.”—the UCSF letter

They don’t know: their complaint concerns the potential hazards of using an indirect method of exposure measurement.  They could go to an airport and study this in the real world, but instead they just whip out a letter.  I’m glad they’re raising questions, but it sounds like they shouldn’t have a hard time coming up with the answers they seek.  It sounds to me like they want some research grants more than they want to get the answers.

Comment #41: 3letterjon  on  11/24  at  01:09 AM

@mr_subjunctive: You win an internet.  Here’s a prize: http://xkcd.com/810/

@Ismone: Forgot to mention, thanks for the sauce.  Lots of good-to-know stuff in there.  The manufacturers and TSA never even bothered to measure or estimate the X-ray flux of these machines?  What the I don’t even…

Comment #42: Jewbacca  on  11/24  at  01:15 AM

Shorter 3letterjon: “We don’t know for certain the machines are dangerous because the manufacturers and government refuse to do the relevant safety testing.  Therefore, anyone who wants to actually test them for safety before inflicting them on millions of people is obviously in it for the money.  I once half-overheard some things about radiation once and that makes me an expert, also too.”

Comment #43: Jewbacca  on  11/24  at  01:19 AM

So give ‘em the fucking grant money and study it. If this was a medical device, they would have had to prove it’s safe. But it’s not, so we’re supposed to take their word for it. There hasn’t been any testing on these things. Again, that’s not my primary concern here, but I don’t think we can just hand-wave away the safety concerns.

Comment #44: chingona  on  11/24  at  01:21 AM

@BeanS

It’s creepy! Righties and lefties talkin’ like they’re the same!!!!Twilight Zone!

It’s nothing new.  Whenever something that the left has been advocating all along either gains unequivocal support among a vast majority of the population or is suddenly proven true for the privileged few who control the Republican Party, the conservatives adopt our rhetoric.

Lefties have been claiming that the erosion of civil liberties under the cover of the War on Terror meant the terrorists were winning since shortly after 9/11.  Just because the Republicans finally decided that we were right because <strike>their junk got touched by a dude</strike> they have a direct line to the Founding Fathers, who finally decided to weigh in, doesn’t show what you think it does.  The Republicans have finally started to come around and, for some insane reason, you are channeling Bush circa October 26, 2001. 

That last bit is rather Twilight Zone-y, but the first bit is old news everywhere, and has already been covered on Pandagon again and again.  If you for some reason need more evidence for this rather obvious fact, you can pick up Liberal Fascism and see just how far wingnuts have to go to try and show they are the progressive ones when the majority of the nation embraces liberal values.  If that is too unpleasant (and I assure you, it will be, but just like security theater, it will <strike>waste time and money</strike> make you safer somehow), just remember that the party of Bush and Palin is and always has been the party that abolished slavery and passed civil rights legislation.

Comment #45: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/24  at  01:26 AM

#44,
“If this was a medical device, they would have had to prove it’s safe”

Dont know about that. Apparently x-rays that kids use for dentists are….KILLLING OUR BABIES, MONSTERS, FluORiDE, BLAcK helicOptErs, eeek!

“http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/us/23scan.html”

Comment #46: BeanS  on  11/24  at  01:53 AM

But I dont get why the focus is so much on the body pat-downs when about 90% of people use the body scanners. Most arent opposed to that so why dont people just use that rather than the pat-downs? The pat downs also look like they go over quickly.

Comment #47: BeanS  on  11/24  at  01:57 AM

The huffington post says airline attendants can also avoid the pat-downs.

Comment #48: BeanS  on  11/24  at  01:59 AM

@BeanS

The pat downs also look like they go over quickly.

Out of curiosity, what is the minimum amount of time that unreasonable and inappropriate touching must go on before it can be considered something worth getting upset about?

As to the rest of your JAQing off, some of that has already been addressed in this and/or the other thread, and just because most people might be okay with something doesn’t make it right.

Comment #49: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/24  at  02:03 AM

I’m not hand-waving away the concerns, only pointing out that the letter that’s being cited as proof that there is a significant danger consists of one sentence that suggests different measurements be made and many bullet points that list potential dangers.  Sure that’s ratio may be enough to justify a war with Iraq or to dismiss the link between greenhouse gases and global warming, but it isn’t enough to convince me of what many are suggesting I should be convinced of.  Further study is needed?  Yes, I agree.  Make the better measurements.

Comment #50: 3letterjon  on  11/24  at  02:04 AM

BeanS,

I don’t know what you’re going on about, and why, but one of the people I know who is most concerned about this is someone who uses medical x-ray sources to treat cancer.  Also, just about anyone who works with x-rays professionally will encourage me and anyone else to avoid x-rays as diagnostic tools, even when it is possible they would turn something up.  I also say this as the granddaughter of a woman whose death may have been hastened by diagnostic x-rays exacerbating a preexisting precancerous condition.

Also, re: the patdowns, you can go through the scanner and still get patted down.  Some travelers are reporting roughly one in three of the scanned people get patted down too.  So, then you have exposure to radiation + naked image & gropefest.

3letterjon,

As Jewbacca pointed out, none of this should be done without safety testing first.  No adequate safety testing has been performed, and the TSA agents aren’t being given dosimeters, which is straight-up bullshit.  The four UCSF profs raising the alarm are an oncologist, a biophysicist, and two x-ray crystallography experts, which is to say, this is right up their alley.

Comment #51: Ismone  on  11/24  at  02:06 AM

Bean S, I assumed you were arguing in good faith, now you’re just being intentionally obtuse. I am high risk skin cancer, and have no intention of taking the risk, and would prefer not to be groped by TSA approved strangers. You can have both if you’d like, but some of us will go ahead and fight against security measures that will do nothing to make us more secure. ans you can ever so kindly, shut it.

Comment #52: Awkward  on  11/24  at  02:06 AM

#51

“radiaton + naked image & gropefest”

Sounds like a fun concert I’d like to attend!

But Im not arguing it anymore. Like I give a crap. I just dont like hearing liberals and right wingers sounding the same because it makes me nauseas in my tum tum.

Comment #53: BeanS  on  11/24  at  02:10 AM

@BeanS

I just dont like hearing liberals and right wingers sounding the same because it makes me nauseas in my tum tum.

They sounded the same back in the aftermath of Sept. 11th too (at least some of them did).  There were lots of liberals making the same arguments the conservatives were making about the need for war with Iraq, and the importance of giving up liberties for security.  I’d assumed that all of those liberals had either learned that kind of thinking was a mistake or switched parties (or, in at least one case, ran as independents in Connecticut).

It certainly made me a bit queasy at the time.  Hearing the actual liberal arguments of the time from today’s Republicans?  That makes me the teensiest bit hopeful.  Your comments are just baffling, I keep wondering when I stumbled into the Tardis and why on earth that nice Doctor would bring me back to that period of American History.

Comment #54: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/24  at  02:24 AM

Ismone,

Did I doubt their findings?  No, I didn’t.  What they say is quite reasonable and they’re experts.  But I did note that their findings are based on a complete lack of actual data, so I suggest that their findings are based on speculation.  Is it good speculation or bad speculation?  Pretty good, actually, if their curricula vitae are to be judged.  But it’s still based on data that hasn’t been gathered.  I say gather the data rather than jump to their unmade conclusions.  And yes, put the measuring devices on the machines.  I don’t dismiss their suggestions, only the conclusion that their findings are actual findings.

If I was flying, I’d reluctantly choose the grope.

Comment #55: 3letterjon  on  11/24  at  02:24 AM

@53

So what do you want us to do, start arguing against civil liberties whenever Republicans start defending them? Or should we try to dissuade Republicans from agreeing with us that civil liberties are important? Neither makes any goddamn sense.

Comment #56: reverie  on  11/24  at  02:35 AM

BeanS, just ... whatever. Yes, thinking these things should be subject to some sort of minimal safety testing, given that they’re delivering very minimal security improvements, is the same as ranting at black helicopters. You’re right. There’s nothing to worry about. They only have our best interests at heart. I’m sorry I didn’t see it before, but you’ve opened my eyes.

Comment #57: chingona  on  11/24  at  02:39 AM

Wow, until this series, it honestly never occurred to me that people not wanting to have their privates on a screen or felt up by professionals doing their job were doing anything other than overreacting.  I mean, duh, random professionals feel your privates up and/or image them with specialized equipment all the time!  As a woman, I’m just so used to medical personnel needing to inspect my undercarriage and top end that it just wouldn’t occur to me to think that another professional who is mandated to image/feel either could possibly have anything other than 95% above board reasons (and that 5% doubt is due to experience with security guards in art museums/Pompeii who felt the need to demonstrate statuary on my person).  I’ve heard TSA people joke about not-so-randomly screening people while I was putting my shoes on, in reference to my (white, male, boring as hell looking) coworker coming through behind me - that was in Atlanta, had a good laugh with the rest of the group post-security, no, Mark, you weren’t pulled out because your glasses triggered the metal detector, but because unlike the rest of us, you’re a boring looking white male.

So, now I find myself realizing that I’ve got a weird sense of normality with the enhanced TSA screening techniques, and that’s freaky to me, as someone who normally is all about the civil liberties and whatnot.  Wait, what, having one’s privates touched in an impersonal context is something to be bothered by?  Who cares what my unclothed body looks like in a detached manner, when no one who knows me knows it’s me?  Hell, I’ve OFFERED to let observing nurses feel the lump in my boobie for future reference when discussing how it’d gotten the biopsy ok with new doctors.  With all the jokes I get whenever I put on a pair of lab gloves (as a chemistry person!) around non-chemist males, I always thought men got just as much professional junk inspection as I do.  Because for a large percentage of men, seeing someone put on gloves apparently means that they’re about to be told to turn their head and cough and/or have a finger inserted somewhere, even in everyday settings.

Shall have to ask my Nigel about this, as our backgrounds are similar, other than gender.  Yes, touching and/or viewing someone’s privates should be a private thing, but it’s hard for me to feel any antipathy towards those who don’t set the policy, and are just trying to get through their work day.  I can see that prison guard, for example, might attract a higher percentage than the average population of people who like to humiliate/torture others, but TSA agent?  Who the hell thinks that they went into that line of work because they so very much were hoping for the opportunity to grope strangers, much less you, personally?  The anger of the general populace towards the TSA agents is really appalling to me.  Growing up in DC, you just get used to everyday people being gov’t employees who are doing the best they can in a thankless job where everyone blames them personally for politics, and that it doesn’t have anything at all to do with their own preferences.

Though, my goodness, I really feel for those who have incontinence problems after the “underwear bomber,” and as a chemistry person, I know that it is damn ludicrous to outlaw beverages going through security.  Crap, it’s hard, I want to be a civil liberties stickler, but my body has already been normalized into professional property, and the world in general is so ignorant of basic science, super-specific details of it that a non-expert couldn’t be expected to know don’t bother me.  I’ve encountered plenty of asleep-at-the-wheel TSA agents (hello BWI, where I *UNKNOWLINGLY* (did a really bad job of purging my purse that morning, hell, it was a 5ish AM flight, I’m usually much better prepared) went through with FIVE lighters around 5ish years ago, in other words, long after lighters were forbidden, w/o a single one being noticed, I seriously freaked when I got to my destination and realized what a bad girl I’d unknowingly been.

So, policy may be bad, but the people who have to enforce it are probably acting out of work necessity and never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence, etc., so anger towards the agents on the part of the general populace pisses me off as well.

Ah, liberal guilt/wishy-washyness.  How can anyone NOT feel conflicting responses to anything complicated?

Comment #58: Djinna  on  11/24  at  02:40 AM

@3letterjon, it’s not that they didn’t take a good measurement, it’s that they (allegedly) never even took a meaningful measurement.  It’s like instead of testing how powerful one of those microwave pain beams is, they test how much it heats up dry air, observe that it’s less than sunlight, and conclude that it has negligible effect on people.

Look, here’s what’s so stupid and deceptive about air kerma.

Air kerma is a measure of how much kinetic energy (heat) the radiation puts into a unit mass of air (KERMA = Kinetic Energy Released per unit Mass of Air).  That’s fine and all when the absorption curves of air and people are comparable, then you just convert to Gray (unit of absorbed dose) and from there to sievert (equivalent dose, which is weighted based on the effects of the particular radiation type and energy).  The problem is that the absorption curves are radically different.  We know almost all the X-rays are absorbed (scattered, to be pedantic, but same basic effect in terms of absorbed dose) in the first few millimeters of person—that’s the entire point of how these machines work.  Almost all of those photons are hitting electrons in you, while most of them pass through the air without releasing any kinetic energy.  So air kerma is guaranteed to be an underestimate of exposure.  We don’t know exactly how bad the underestimate of exposure is, but we sure as fuck know the exposure is higher than they imply.  This is just made worse by using whole body mass in the implied denominator, not the tiny fraction of mass the X-rays actually hit.

Yes, you can compare different types of radiation, but it’s a very long road from air kerma to sievert (the relevant unit for comparison).  And why would you even do that with Compton scattering?  You’d have to figure out the X-ray flux from the absorption properties of air at that energy.  Just start with flux, which the UCSF signatories want to do, and which I guarantee the manufacturers had to at least estimate to make the damn thing.  There’s no way they could just have no idea how bright the beam is.

As for your posts #50 and #55…  Do you really think no one else clicked through and read the letter?  I’d love to see a cite for where they overreach as you allege.

*sigh* This is making me seriously rethink my preferences at airport security.

Comment #59: Jewbacca  on  11/24  at  03:02 AM

the people who have to enforce it are probably acting out of work necessity

I hate to Godwin the thread, but do we all seriously have to rehash the “just following orders” thing? That defense has been put to rest. It’s doesn’t make you a Nazi but it doesn’t let you off the hook for what you do either.

Re. radiation, I just googled this discussion: http://blog.geekpress.com/2010/11/radiation-risks-from-tsa-scanners.html and it looks like a couple good links even if you don’t trust a personal blog as a science source.

Comment #60: Bagelsan  on  11/24  at  03:09 AM

Nobody’s thinking about this: where are the relatively top dollar personnel that Al Qaeda fielded on 9/11? Ever since it’s been losers who bring to mind the guy who bombed the WTC. He got caught in part because he tried to get the security deposit for his truck bomb back.  Reid and Abdulmuttallub were both low-level, low-yield (so to speak) losers. The Times Square bomber couldn’t even park his car correctly, or connect any of the elements of his device. Hooked together, sure, it’s a bomb, but if you don’t connect it it’s just the dumpster behind Radio Shack. Their last big attacks were London and Madrid and those were five years ago. They’re just fucking with people now, and it’s incredibly sad to watch people fall for it.

  Realistically,  they’ll go after cargo holds.  Nobody’s screening for them, and you don’t have to sacrifice personnel.  But even that’s a relative long shot. Where are the garbage can bombs, the suicide bombers? If Al Qaeda wanted to attack US airports, they could hit the parking garage, the drop off point, the pick up point at baggage claim, or the security line itself.  Why haven’t they hit these points?  Because they can’t. And because they don’t need to. We’re freaking out over a loser who tried to set his shoes on fire nine years ago,  even though there’s not been one single attempt of that nature since then.  Meanwhile, the last time I flew I got home and found out that nobody had found the handful of live rounds I hadn’t found when I dumped my bug out bag out.

The passengers are doing all the heavy lifting.  I’m not worried about terrorists. I’m worried about the cargo hold and even then I’m not that worried.  Unless something happens over the hols,  my money’s on the tenth anniversary of 9/11 or on the elections.

Comment #61: ginmar  on  11/24  at  04:45 AM

@Bagelsan, thanks for the pointers to the links.  It’s good to hear the other side, and they make a fair point putting their figures in equivalent dose (but what assumptions are they making to get from air kerma to sievert? sorry, document not available), but goddamn that FDA response is insidious.  Sounds so reasonable and authoritative, but pay careful attention to the citations.  Almost everything is either a) systems from the 90s (i.e., irrelevant), b) seekrit-but-trust-us, or c) Ann Coulter-level footnotes-don’t-support-what-they’re-supposed-to. 

I clicked through for a bit (I’m +6 and have nothing better to do) and found a more recent assessment (warning: 15MB PDF) of the Rapiscan Secure 1000.  Just skimming the executive summary right now, and it’s already looking bad.  For starters, they didn’t use an arbitrary production-model scanner; they used one Rapiscan made special just for them to test (a second machine to double-check was “not available”).  Nothing at all suspect about that, nuh-uh.  It even had custom software that differed from those in TSA use, but that totally had no effect on the functioning of the system; this is based purely on Rapiscan’s assertion.  Also, they note in passing that “requirements ANSI/HPS N43.17-2002 and ANSI/HPS N43.17-2009, 8.1.2 were not evaluated.”  From the context, it sounds like that’s standards for installation and calibration; if anyone has a copy of N43.17 (either year), now I’m curious what the specifics left unevaluated are.  Best part, though?  They totally sign off on the emergency stop functionality in the executive summary, then reveal later in the details that the system they tested didn’t even have an emergency shutoff (one emitter had an unwired shutoff button and the other didn’t even have that).

I’ve read enough of that for tonight.  The details are tl;dr at the moment and heavily redacted in places.  Regardless, this is shoddy, shoddy work if this is supposed to pass for independent verification/testing (so sez the FDA).  I don’t even need to know anything about the specifics of data collection to know that—they epic failed before the first measurement.

Alright, work in 4 hours, time to pass out.

Comment #62: Jewbacca  on  11/24  at  07:34 AM

Funny you should mention The Nation cuz they seem now to think it’s A-OK, now that the protest movement appears to be just another example of the Visible Hand at work: TSAstroturf: The Washington Lobbyists and Koch-Funded Libertarians Behind the TSA Scandal

Comment #63: Aaron  on  11/24  at  08:18 AM

BeanS is the perfect example of a person who is “liberal” only because s/he is anti-conservative.  Making the argument that “conservatives oppose it so we must support it” is, quite frankly, ridiculous.  Seriously, come up with something better or STFU.  What’s really ironic is that BeanS has been duped by the conservative method of instilling fear to make people overlook legitimate problems.  In the other thread, s/he essentially admitted to having pants-wetting fear about riding on subways.

Comment #64: bananacat  on  11/24  at  10:59 AM

One of the most ironic parts of the whole “junk” controversy is listening to conservatives using the “don’t touch my junk” line as a battle cry.  These are the same people who used “teabag” before being told that it’s a dirty slang term.  How long will it be before they realize “junk” means private parts and they will be like “we never said that!”  Lol!

(And yes, I get teabaggers who claim they never used the term first.)

Comment #65: Albert Cirrus  on  11/24  at  11:01 AM

BeanS,

If you’re so anti-conservative, then I would like to point out that conservatives breath and drink water.  Just FYI in case you want to stop doing those things, because we all know that when conservatives do anything, it’s bad by default.  You wouldn’t want to accidentally be like them.

Comment #66: bananacat  on  11/24  at  11:04 AM

“I just dont like hearing liberals and right wingers sounding the same because it makes me nauseas in my tum tum.”

Clearly, then, we should all get back to disagreeing about what color the sky is instead of being happy that, just this fucking once, the usual asshole brigade might conceivably be on the side of the angels.

“So, policy may be bad, but the people who have to enforce it are probably acting out of work necessity and never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence, etc., so anger towards the agents on the part of the general populace pisses me off as well.”

What the agents are doing is wrong.  I don’t care how financially strapped you are, you don’t take money to sexually assault people.  I’m reasonably sure unemployment statistics don’t come up during discussions about organized crime legbreakers and sundry hitmen, why should they be a compelling factor when it comes to organized genital-groping?

I think the bigger problem is that people get to the part where they’re angry at agents but never get to the point where they recognize that what the TSA and the government officials outside the agency who could put a stop to this are doing to a) the flying public and b) their own employees is wrong.  Just because the in-the-shitter economy means you can get away with telling your workers to grope strangers’ junk or be fired and not face a massive walk-out, and the law means you can get away with barring them from unionizing, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be on the hook for a sexual harassment lawsuit and applicable criminal charges for each and every instance of nonconsensual genital touching you coerced both parties into under threat of firing/massive fines.  There is space to be both angry at someone for complying with a clearly immoral order and enraged at the person who gave the order and relied on eminently credible threats to see that it was carried out.

Comment #67: preying mantis  on  11/24  at  11:12 AM

Yep, we seem to have reached that stage of capitalism where sexual abuse is being used as a threat to get people (taxpayers in this case) to spend money to pad corporate profits.

And I was remarking to a friend only last night that we’d reached the stage of capitalism where the only viable investments left were in what basically boils down to fraud, grand larceny or plain theft.

When oh when will I learn not to underestimate the endless inventiveness of capital? Marx had no idea!

Comment #68: Dunc  on  11/24  at  11:17 AM

#63, Hmm. Shockingly I clicked your link, read the Nations story (Mark Ames! Hooray!) and found it didn’t at all comport with your summary.

“Hey, this appears to be an astroturfed protest” /= “go ahead molest people for useless security theater”

If the Koch Brothers want to stir up whiny white conservative outrage against something that legitimately is bad, that’ll be a nice change. If it’s apparently in service of privatizing airport security, well, we haven’t lost much if they manage that. Sure, we’ll be wasting at least billions shoveling money to government “contractors” (it’s a shame the same name has been applied to politically-connected bandits and the honest people who’ll install your plumbing and put up drywall) who only take the public teat out of their mouths long enough to mouth some libertarian platitudes about privatizing inefficient government.

Comment #69: witless chum  on  11/24  at  12:16 PM

I’m confused: how is this not in violation of the fourth amendment?  The fourth amendment doesn’t say “the government has a right to search you if you do [X] because you could always choose not to do [X]”, it says the only way the government (or its agents) can search you is with probable cause and/or a specific warrant.

Aren’t these searches exactly the sort of generalized searching that the 4th amendment was written to protect us from?

I wonder if some smart, ambitious prosecutor will decide to bust the TSA for having naked images of children.

Anyway, this is the sort thing where there is a big difference between people’s opinions and their voting behavior and the politicians know it.  A majority of people might be against these scans/searches but if Congress tries to do anything about it, any Congress-critter that raises a stink against the scans will be tarred and feathered as “not being serious about security” and hence loose in an election.  Alas, we can’t have a real democracy if people say one thing and then vote in another way.

Comment #70: DAS  on  11/24  at  12:20 PM

Djinna, if you can’t see the difference between a consensual medical test in the privacy of your doctor’s office done by someone with whom you have developed a rapport and a comfort level and whom you trust and having the government anonymously do so, I think you really have some problems with boundaries and personal space, and I feel sorry for you.  Consenting to allow some nurses to feel you is different from being forced to consent to an undertrained, underpaid person to grope you meaninglessly.  I am willing to consent to the embarrassment and discomfort of the gynecological exam in the parameters I listed above because the net outcome for me is positive:  I get a test done that determines whether or not I have cancer or any number of other medical conditions/diseases.  And you’ll note that even the insurance companies and doctors have reduced the frequency of those tests because they’re simply not necessary every year of your life.

You might not have a problem with your naked body being seen by some faceless goon in a back room, and the picture stored and possibly shared with friends (as has happened), and you may not have a problem with going out in public and having men treat your body as public property, but I do.  It’s bad enough when some doodbro yells or says something sexual to me in an attempt to punish me for having the temerity to have a female body that is nominally Beauty2K compliant.  It’s a fuckton worse when the same is done by some asshat in a uniform and I am FORCED to undergo the abuse or face a fine or worse for complaining or trying to get out of it.

I do NOT want some guy in some back room seeing my naked body.  I go to great lengths every day to cover up my body so that others can’t see my genitals or breast, or shit, even my stomach and buttocks.  I don’t want even the POSSIBILITY of my picture being stored and looked at and discussed by a bunch of doodbros deciding “who’s hot.”  On the other hand, I don’t care if it’s a lady or a man, I don’t want some stranger’s hand feeling up my labia.  I go to great lengths to avoid having that happen to me on a daily basis, and even if I get arrested and a police officer then has the absolute Constitutional right to frisk me, they don’t touch my labia or fondle my breasts.

If you have no problem with it, fine.  Don’t impose that shit on me or anyone else, and I hope to Bob you never have to travel with a prosthetic or any kind of ostomy or even a small child.

Comment #71: speedbudget  on  11/24  at  01:15 PM

I certainly don’t know as much as the UCSF professors…

Indeed, what a candid admission on your part. Oh wait…

From what I know about radiation, it’s cumulative exposure.

No, no! Stop! You were doing so well!

I’m still not convinced that the danger is greater than the activity (flying) itself.

Translation: I don’t know any physics, but I’m not convinced by these smarty-pants physicists!

For most travelers, it really won’t make much of a difference even if it is 20 times worse than advertised, as that can be made or lost in a few extra afternoons of gardening over the course of many years.

You don’t fucking know that! You just admitted yourself that you don’t know this. Aaaaaahhhhhh!

Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Comment #72: Jerry Vinokurov  on  11/24  at  01:17 PM

I understand the health concerns with the backscatter x-ray machines, but people should know that some airports have the millimeter wave scanners instead. I see the wiki page has a small note about potential health issues for those but it doesn’t seem to be on the same order as with the x-ray machines. Anyone got additional information on those?

I was able to quickly figure out which machine my airport uses - and actually, you can see what they look like on the TSA website (http://www.tsa.gov/approach/tech/ait/how_it_works.shtm). Just pointing it out so people know what they’re actually rejecting at the airport. Don’t submit to the grope for fear of x-rays if what your airport has is the millimeter wave scanner.

Comment #73: antiope  on  11/24  at  01:17 PM

Geez, speedbudget…

While I’m sure Djinna can speak for herself, I just have to point out:

Djinna, if you can’t see the difference between a consensual medical test in the privacy of your doctor’s office done by someone with whom you have developed a rapport and a comfort level and whom you trust…

How lucky for you that you have such a close relationship with your doctor. I don’t have a regular doctor so when I do go in for an exam it’s usually a stranger. Not directly relevant, but I wanted to note the generous assumption your making to enhance your argument. You do this again later, assuming every TSA agent is some “doodbro” who wants to look at your amazingly hot body, assuming they’re all unprofessional…kind of a dishonest way to craft your argument, I think.

You might not have a problem with your naked body being seen by some faceless goon in a back room, and the picture stored and possibly shared with friends (as has happened), and you may not have a problem with going out in public and having men treat your body as public property, but I do.

I happen to agree 100% with Djinna - I don’t think this is a huge deal. But let’s agree on this: I won’t call you an overly sensitive, hyper paranoid narcissist and you won’t call us weirdos with boundary issues. Seem fair? I really am not dismissing your concerns, I think they’re valid and should be addressed, but you don’t need to get all upset and frantic over the fact that not everyone shares them.

Comment #74: antiope  on  11/24  at  01:32 PM

@antiope

I think it is worth pointing out that, no matter what your relationship with your doctor is, there are far more avenues of accountability in medicine than there are in Homeland Security.  (Although, arguably, there should be far more accountability in both.)

Comment #75: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/24  at  01:36 PM

I happen to agree 100% with Djinna - I don’t think this is a huge deal. But let’s agree on this: I won’t call you an overly sensitive, hyper paranoid narcissist and you won’t call us weirdos with boundary issues. Seem fair? I really am not dismissing your concerns, I think they’re valid and should be addressed, but you don’t need to get all upset and frantic over the fact that not everyone shares them.

You don’t have to be paranoid or narcissistic to recognize that what’s going on in the airports right now is a huge invasion of personal space that isn’t doing anything at all to improve our security. The prospect of people being inappropriately groped is no longer a prospect, it’s a real thing that’s happening, and whether or not it bothers you personally is really beside the point.

Comment #76: Jerry Vinokurov  on  11/24  at  01:43 PM

Just so you know, that Whole Body Imager at the top is by L-3.  Rapiscan is the maker of the latest installed carry on baggage screening equipment put in at passanger screening checkpoints and Reveal makes the checked baggage equipment currently being installed.  The WBI and new baggage screening were chosen, as near as I have been able to tell, for a combination of fastest throughput and least false readings.  The puffers are both too slow and have issues with clogging vents.

Comment #77: helen w. h.  on  11/24  at  01:45 PM

Atheist and Jerry: like I said, I agree there are valid concerns here that need to be addressed. I really, honestly do believe that what is happening is not a sustainable solution, for a lot of reasons, including the privacy issue.

However, speedbudget overreacted and was creating all sorts of strawmen. The fact that I don’t care about the scanners - I haven’t been through a grope yet and won’t comment on that - doesn’t mean I have boundary issues. The fact that she does doesn’t mean she’s paranoid. We can discuss this rationally without resorting to childish namecalling and overreacting to people who don’t share our every feeling.

Comment #78: antiope  on  11/24  at  01:55 PM

L-3 WBIs do not use X-rays.  I think that would be Rapiscan, though I’m not certain.  You do not need a lead apron to stop them.

http://www.sds.l-3com.com/products/mmwave.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimeter_wave_scanner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_high_frequency

Not that the end of the second Wiki article talks about tests in the PATH trains.

Comment #79: helen w. h.  on  11/24  at  01:56 PM

@antiope

I probably should have addressed my comment to everyone who made or discussed the medical exam comparison, including speedbudget.  Sorry about that, I didn’t mean to imply that I was disagreeing with you specifically.  I think Djinna’s comparison of the security scans to exams is a somewhat fair one in many ways, but for two things:
1.  Medical exams normally have a lot more “probable cause,” so to speak.  Most people won’t ever even try to blow up or seize control of a plane, but most people will get sick at some point.  Even then, we don’t take an x-ray of every person who comes in saying their joints hurt during flu season.

2.  The TSA is a lot less accountable than a doctor, both in terms of reporting bad behavior and taking your business elsewhere.  It may be hard, expensive, inconvenient, near-impossible, what have you, to find a different medical practice after one behaved inappropriately or was too invasive, but it is actually impossible to take your business to another group of airline security screening personnel.

Comment #80: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/24  at  02:19 PM

@antiope

Shit, I did it again.  Most of #80 probably should have been more broadly addressed as well. 

@Everyone talking about the similarities between medical exams and security screenings

#80 is for you.

That is all.

Comment #81: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/24  at  02:25 PM

You do this again later, assuming every TSA agent is some “doodbro” who wants to look at your amazingly hot body, assuming they’re all unprofessional

“Why are you so full of yourself? Why do you think your body is so special? Who’d want to look at your body anyway?”

antiope, this is really Not The Point. The point is that you don’t know who is looking at your pictures now, and you don’t know who could look at them in the future. You don’t know who could be looking at and commenting on your body, and you don’t have to think you’re “amazingly hot” in order for that to make you uncomfortable.

Comment #82: snowmentality  on  11/24  at  02:32 PM

“However, speedbudget overreacted and was creating all sorts of strawmen. The fact that I don’t care about the scanners - I haven’t been through a grope yet and won’t comment on that - doesn’t mean I have boundary issues. The fact that she does doesn’t mean she’s paranoid. We can discuss this rationally without resorting to childish namecalling and overreacting to people who don’t share our every feeling.”

I don’t think I’d have a problem with either the scanner (just like a lockerroom, it’d seem to me) or the pat-down (I don’t have any kind of relationship with my doctor, nor do I want one), but obviously a lot of people do. (If everyone couldn’t guess, I’m male) I don’t get what’s so bad about speedbudget here. The societal consensus on this has generally been that you don’t have to let a stranger feel you up/see your naked body to fly. The TSA is trying to change that FOR NO GOOD REASON other than giving people a misleading impression of safety. The burden should be on the people who want to start invasively searching everyone, paranoids and otherwise.

Comment #83: witless chum  on  11/24  at  02:32 PM

Witless Chum: her post just annoyed me, that’s all. Sloppy, dishonest argumentation, insulting…not a huge deal, it just irked me and I felt like calling her out. No biggie. I agree with you.

Snowmentality: you’re right, we don’t know who’s looking at the pictures, but that is the point. It could be some doodbro, it could be some perfectly professional person, or someone in between. Who knows. If you set up the scenario to be one where you are being groped/ogled by unprofessional assholes, then yes, it’s a little odd to not have a problem with that. That’s what speedbudget was doing. “How could you be OK with some asshole frat boy molesting you?!?!” Similarly, it would be unfair of me to say that every TSA agent is a calm, courteous professional who would never abuse his/her power, so those who are concerned are just paranoid.

That being said, I do believe the overwhelming number of TSA agents are generally professional people who have to deal with a lot of shit and who just want to do their jobs as quickly and painlessly as possible. Maybe I’m wrong and we’ll find an overwhelming number of abuses, who knows, and I totally agree with Atheist, A Feminist about the accountability issue. That’s theoretically solvable, though.

Comment #84: antiope  on  11/24  at  02:59 PM

I have been to doctors whom I don’t have a relationship with, but the issue of consent was never a problem.  My issue here is with consent, which I am not allowed to give either way as far as the TSA is concerned, except nominally.  If my rapist had asked me if I would rather him rape me in the anus or the vagina, is that really a choice?  Did I really give consent if I allowed what I consider the lesser of two evils?

By the way, if you are calling that on of my strawmen, it’s one Djinna brought up, and not only Djinna, but a lot of people have equated these searches to medical examinations, which on the face of it should make people think twice.  Medical examinations can be invasive, especially the gynecological ones that are being compared to the searches.  The fact that the people making the equation can’t see how fucked up it is that they are comparing an invasive procedure to a “security” measure is disturbing to me.

I am sorry you don’t have regular doctor, but that is the fault of the fact that our health care system is set up to profit the insurance companies rather than to actually deliver medical services, and to have someone condescendingly say that just because I’ve consented to a test in any doctor’s office EVER means I have no reason to be upset about my “choices” here is really the strawman.

I was not assuming any of the TSA guys wanted to look at my body.  The fact is, THEY ARE.  Have you seen the pictures?  You can see the folds of flesh on genitals, they’re so detailed.  I don’t like the fact that some invisible person in a back room is looking at my body.  In our pornified culture, I would be shocked and amazed to find out that the men looking at the pictures of all the naked bodies aren’t, in fact, sexualizing the pictures that come their way.  They’re certainly sexualizing the women in front of them, as evidenced by the comments people are reporting they hear from the TSA agents in front of them.  It is also a fact that TSA agents are not properly trained for this kind of pat down and screening.

I never said I had an “amazingly hot body.”  I said my body is nominally Beauty2K compliant.  I will also point out that TSA agents feel no compunction in fat-shaming the people right in front of them while they are searching them, so I don’t see why my extrapolation to them sexualizing me and/or anybody else is so wrong.

Your trust in the fact that they AREN’T is surprising, given the rape culture we live in, evidenced by the idea that “it’s no big deal,” even though these searches are tantamount to sexual assault.

If I give consent for a doctor or medical professional to touch me and do certain tests, that does NOT equate to me giving consent to some nameless/faceless person looking at my naked body or, in fact, to any person groping my genitals.  Again I direct you to look up “rape culture.”

I’m not getting “all upset and frantic” over the fact that not everybody agrees with me.  What I am upset about is the fact that because some people aren’t bothered by these things, the assumption is that the rest of us should just get over it, which is privilege in a nutshell.

Comment #85: speedbudget  on  11/24  at  03:05 PM

Most arent opposed to that so why dont people just use that rather than the pat-downs? The pat downs also look like they go over quickly.

As someone else mentioned above, it really doesn’t matter. Even if you go through the scanner, the screeners have the option to then pat you down.

I’m a slightly cute, young-looking, blond woman. You want to know how many times I’ve been pulled for a physical pat-down AFTER going through an x-ray machine at an airport? About 50% of the time I fly. My only consolation in the recently released rules is that it looks like I can now request to be patted down by a female. I’ve made that request and been denied before.

Comment #86: hp  on  11/24  at  03:12 PM

“That being said, I do believe the overwhelming number of TSA agents are generally professional people who have to deal with a lot of shit and who just want to do their jobs as quickly and painlessly as possible.”

One of the big issues, as far as the long-term goes, is that it’s pretty normal to feel shitty after molesting an unconsenting stranger or leaving a child terrified and feeling violated*.  If you come home crying every day because of the psychological abuse heaped on you by your employers and the people you’re being paid to grope without permission, you’re unlikely to stay there a second longer than you have to.  Since agents can’t unionize and are being paid crap wages, there’s little hope for them of the job improving and comparatively remunerative employment without the nonconsensual stranger-fondling is going to be easier to find.  If this keeps going for long enough, we’re going to wind up with a radically disproportionate number of agents who really don’t fucking care what they’re doing to people so long as the checks don’t bounce or who actively get off on the power trip and/or sexual abuse aspects of the job. 

*The TSA’s policy generally seems to be that they won’t automatically perform enhanced pat-downs on children under 12, but that still leaves a lot of minors swept up in it and a lot of wiggle-room for agents deciding that there’s reasonable cause to perform one on a specific child, agents not knowing about the exemption, or agents judging the child older than 12 based on looks.  And that’s assuming they don’t walk back the exemption or quietly escalate their “normal” pat-downs.

Comment #87: preying mantis  on  11/24  at  03:21 PM

Speedbudget:
...and to have someone condescendingly say that just because I’ve consented to a test in any doctor’s office EVER means I have no reason to be upset about my “choices” here is really the strawman.

Where did Djinna say this?

I found your reaction to her post strange because, when I read her post, I read a woman expressing surprise about how normal she thought this all was. She even says, “So, now I find myself realizing that I’ve got a weird sense of normality…” I found her post pretty interesting, going through the various complexities of all of this and how she’s struggling with it. I didn’t see anything in there at all about how everyone should stop complaining or whatever else.

I will also point out that TSA agents feel no compunction in fat-shaming the people right in front of them while they are searching them

Really? You have evidence indicating this is the case of all or even a majority of TSA agents? Or is there a news story somewhere about an incident or two?

NOT that that would be OK, mind you, I’m just noting that it’s important to keep things in perspective. Doctors and nurses have been known to molest patients, but that doesn’t mean you argue to abolish doctor’s visits. Like I said, I am not surprised to hear stories about TSA agents being rude or abusing their power or even acting illegally - you find that in every profession, quite frankly - I’m just asking you to remember the millions of people who get screened every day and what percentage of them have these extremely negative experiences.

What I am upset about is the fact that because some people aren’t bothered by these things, the assumption is that the rest of us should just get over it, which is privilege in a nutshell.

Again, where did Djinna say this? I don’t doubt some are making that argument, but I didn’t read that at all in her post, which is why I found your response over the top.

Comment #88: antiope  on  11/24  at  03:36 PM

#64,
Now I know catgirl that you work for foxnews when you describe my post as saying that yeah I worry about a terrorist attack on a subway as ‘pissing my pants.’ Youre such a good liar catgirl, you should run for office in the republican party!

Comment #89: BeanS  on  11/24  at  03:39 PM

I wonder why no one is talking about the woman TSA agent and the guy who chooses a pat down and during the pat down makes sexually inappropriate comments torwards her and maybe even chooses it to be harassing.

Comment #90: BeanS  on  11/24  at  03:50 PM

#85,
If your pap smears are “invasive” I’d suggest getting another doctor. Mine arent and take about 5 minutes. I also have a female doctor.

Comment #91: BeanS  on  11/24  at  03:52 PM

#87,
So I see this as also a class issue. Its not like they want to be doing pat downs but they have to put bread on the table. Theres alot more issues here to discuss than simply radiation and junk touching.

Comment #92: BeanS  on  11/24  at  03:56 PM

hp, you’re kidding!  I am so sorry.

To everyone:  if something like that happens to you, file a complaint.  If you don’t feel safe doing it during, do it after.  Hp, as far as I know, from my own pat-down experience, we were always entitled to same-sex screeners.  Some women in my office, including one with surgical metal in her body, have confirmed that they have never been offered an opposite-sex patdown.

Comment #93: Ismone  on  11/24  at  04:01 PM

HP, it’s my understanding that TSA’s policy has always been that pat downs be conducted by individuals of the same gender. I may be wrong, but I’m 95% sure I’m not. For example, this article (http://tinyurl.com/2b23ttp) notes:

Lee said the procedure will continue to be conducted by screeners who are the same gender as the passenger. emphasis added

If you are being denied a female screener that’s a violation of the rules and you definitely should file a complaint.

Comment #94: antiope  on  11/24  at  04:23 PM

Is BeanS for real?  I can’t decide.

Comment #95: helen w. h.  on  11/24  at  04:25 PM

It’s not a “grope”.  It’s a “freedom fondle”.

Comment #96: wnoise  on  11/24  at  04:29 PM

Since agents can’t unionize and are being paid crap wages, there’s little hope for them of the job improving and comparatively remunerative employment without the nonconsensual stranger-fondling is going to be easier to find.  If this keeps going for long enough, we’re going to wind up with a radically disproportionate number of agents who really don’t fucking care what they’re doing to people so long as the checks don’t bounce or who actively get off on the power trip and/or sexual abuse aspects of the job.

This, preying mantis.  One hundred times this.

To go back to the comparison between a medical exam and a TSA pat-down for a moment, there’s an element that nobody discussed upthread, which is confidentiality.  In all of the original professions - medicine, law, and divinity - there is an explicit expectation of confidentiality.  That means that a doctor, lawyer or spiritual advisor has an affirmative duty not to repeat anything that is told to them, and not to discuss data points that the practitioner discovers during professional interactions.  That includes any body measurement or bodily-function measurement, or the result of any medical or psychological test or examination. 

TSA Agents are not professionals.  Here is a list of qualifications to be considered for employment as a TSA Agent, straight from their own website:

QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED:

Have reached his/her 18th birthday at the time of application submission;

Be proficient in English (e.g., reading, writing, speaking, and listening);

Have a high school diploma, GED or equivalent; OR

Have at least one year of full-time work experience in securitywork, aviation screener work, or X-ray technician work.

To be considered for initial employment, you must also pass a pre-employment drug screening test and a background investigation, including a criminal check and a credit check.

You must pass all initial training requirements including 56-72 hours of classroom training, 112-128 hours of on-the-job training, and all initial certification testing.

NOTE: Initial training may require you to travel for up to two weeks on a full-time schedule.

____________________________________________________________________________

Now, given that TSA only requires the equivalent of high-school dropouts with no felonies, drug convictions, civil judgments or bankruptcies, and the nationalized compensation for such a position is $29,000 annually, I ask you, what makes TSA officers less likely to fall victim to the exact moral malaise and psychological power-tripping that Philip Zimbardo warned us about in 1971?

I’ll tell you what:  Nothing.

TSA agents are some of the most disproportionately undersupervised security forces ever to exist.  Even police officers have Internal Affairs departments to whom they must answer for their mistakes and shortcomings, and to whom they must submit to oversight activities, such as periodic inquiries. 

TSA is nowhere near such transparency and oversight.  Therefore, the TSA as a group of agents are themselves a threat to the civil liberties of the flying public, and I have not one iota of confidence that anything any of them are doing is actually making any of us any safer. 

In my view, they are basically our modern US version of the stasi, and their only function is to steal vast sums from the public coffers in order to fund their sexual molestation and psychological intimidation games at airports.

Comment #97: Mezosub  on  11/24  at  04:50 PM

“Is BeanS for real?  I can’t decide.”

I can’t, either, but I am very interested in the version of taking a cervical swab that doesn’t involve anything going into my vagina and would like to subscribe to its newsletter.

Comment #98: preying mantis  on  11/24  at  05:00 PM

If you are being denied a female screener that’s a violation of the rules and you definitely should file a complaint.

Clarification:
I wonder how long that has been in effect. The most outrageous pat-downs I received happened 2003/2004ish.  I was refused a female screener at LAX, which has always had the most outrageous/bizarre security issues.

Nowadays, I’m willing to drive 16-20 hours to avoid having to fly and I have a 4-year-old in the car with me. I haven’t flown much in recent years . . .

I’m not so young or cute anymore, so maybe it wouldn’t be as bad. I just was trying to say that I like they are explicitly publishing that this IS the rule, so people know that they can demand it if they refuse to be scanned or are pulled away for further screening. When you don’t know that is is your right, it is easy for the rights to be implicitly denied (say, someone saying “well, I COULD get a female screener for you, but I don’t know when when is going to be available, so if you don’t mind waiting 30, 40 minutes . . . “)

Comment #99: hp  on  11/24  at  05:19 PM

I COULD get a female screener for you, but I don’t know when when is going to be available, so if you don’t mind waiting 30, 40 minutes . . .

I think I have actually read reports of exactly this in the past couple of weeks. Maybe at Salon? Patrick Smith of “Ask the Pilot” has been covering complaints rather extensively.

Comment #100: Well, what?  on  11/24  at  05:45 PM

“When you don’t know that is is your right, it is easy for the rights to be implicitly denied (say, someone saying “well, I COULD get a female screener for you, but I don’t know when when is going to be available, so if you don’t mind waiting 30, 40 minutes . . . “)”

I don’t know that there’s anything stopping them from doing that now, though.  There’s not really a commitment from the TSA that they’ll get you through the screening in x minutes or anything, and the standards vary so wildly from airport to airport that even an explicit statement of “You have the right to a same-sex screener” can easily be followed up with “But I don’t know how long it’s going to take them to finish up with their current pat-downs, it could be an hour, if you want to make your flight I strongly suggest letting the immediately-available opposite-sex screener grab your junk.” As an added bonus, it’s very difficult to prove that creepy-screener actually made you sit there for an hour in order to punish you for not letting them feel you up and not because no, for real, the same-sex screeners were all busy harassing people with prostheses and/or medical devices, so creepy-screener is unlikely to face much of a deterrent.

Comment #101: preying mantis  on  11/24  at  05:50 PM

I think the money reason is spot on. Not only the cost of the scanning machines, but the cost or the increase in effciency and therefore profits if people can be moved thru security faster.

Also, every time I see Rapidscan I read it as Rapescan. They really chose the worst name for that machine.

Comment #102: Olivia  on  11/24  at  06:05 PM

BeanS is a troll.  How can we tell?  The constant reversion to “US versus THEM” and “you are one of THEM” posited as a rational response to irrational requests for valid evidence to back up terrorist fantasy claims.

Us vs. Them is the hallmark “logic”  of the wingnut.

Comment #103: Ms Kate  on  11/24  at  10:16 PM

assuming every TSA agent is some “doodbro” who wants to look at your amazingly hot body

With this, Antiope outs itself as a full blown misogynist!

HINT TO JERK: it isn’t about whether the agent is satisfied IT IS ABOUT BASIC CONSENT TO INTRUSION ON A PERSON’S BODY REGARDLESS OF SEXUAL ATTRACTIVENESS.

Anymore from you and somebody might attach a twistyvirus to your computer, where all links lead to I Blame The Patriarchy!

Comment #104: Ms Kate  on  11/24  at  10:25 PM

@helen w. h. and Ms Kate

My money is still on BeanS as a time-traveler.  I expect the next argument will be that just because we haven’t found any <strike>WMDs</strike> terrorists among those attempting to board planes with these procedures doesn’t mean they aren’t there and we must make the world safe for democracy somehow, with nice fat government contracts if at all possible.

Comment #105: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/25  at  12:48 AM

Also, every time I see Rapidscan I read it as Rapescan. They really chose the worst name for that machine.

We could add HappyCuddleScan to “Freedom fondle”, but I think people will still object.

Comment #106: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/25  at  01:08 AM

@PIATOR

But what if we painted the outside with unicorns prancing about in amber waves of grain with American flags hanging off their horns?  That’d have to work, right?

Comment #107: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/25  at  02:59 AM

antiope, perhaps we should have a couple drinks and talk.  I think I’m just a little triggered by all this.  I read Djinna’s post completely differently, probably because the media is rife with people excusing the gropes in the name of “security.”  We are probably on the same page, but I’ve been in a state of near panic since I found out that I was actually in a backscatter machine without my knowledge or consent about five months ago, and I’m scheduled for a trip in December.  I’ve got sexual assault in my past, so I’m kind of freaking out about this.

I don’t know how one can do a PAP smear without it being invasive, but if BeanS has some amazing doctor, I would be willing to travel.  It doesn’t matter how nice my doctor is or how long I’ve known her, I jump like a rabbit every time that speculum goes in.  And that’s after she tells me what is going to happen and does the gentle thigh touching to warn me.

Call me weird, but I would rather be able to see the person looking at my naked picture.  It would make me feel much more comfortable to be able to see who is looking at me and their reaction.  Not knowing who is looking at me and what they are doing/saying with my picture is what is really freaking me out here.  I understand some people are more comfortable with the anonymity.  To me that is taking too much control out of my hands.

Again I apologize for coming on so strong, antiope.  Let’s have a couple shots.

Comment #108: speedbudget  on  11/25  at  11:37 AM

I suspect it would help if the scans and patdowns had to be done by registered nurses.

Comment #109: Dr. Psycho  on  11/25  at  02:57 PM

There’s yet another element of comparing the Freedom Fondle to a medical exam that makes it all wrong.

It’s not just a matter of consent and professionalism, it’s the distinction that when you go for a medical exam, it is for your own benefit. You’re not merely “consenting” to that cervical swab or prostate exam, you’re doing it because it is beneficial to you.

The Freedom Fondle isn’t comparable in that way.

Comment #110: catfood  on  11/25  at  06:28 PM

We should be arguing about how we can get people to accept less security.

Well, I’m not sure how much there is to argue about.  We’ve found one rather sure-fire way and it is in the title of the post.

It strikes me as pretty absurd, and I’ve not seen anything in the letter that makes that more reasonable.
They may be physicists but that doesn’t mean they know anything about cancer and the human body.

Umm… did you not see in the letter the actual areas of expertise of those signing the frickin’ thing?  I mean, I would think (although I probably lack your biochemistry knowledge) that oncologists know a bit about cancer and the human body.

I mean, Ismone pointed it out in comment #51, but it is in the letter you claim to have read as well:

The four UCSF profs raising the alarm are an oncologist, a biophysicist, and two x-ray crystallography experts, which is to say, this is right up their alley.

Oh, Chet.  Even when you might have a good point, it is so hard to respond to you seriously because of all the idiocy I had to wade through to find it.

Comment #111: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/25  at  09:06 PM

Chet,

Right on about this security not being necessary regardless of x-rays or anything.

But abso-fucking-lutley wrong that it doesn’t matter whether the denominator we use for x-ray exposure should be the entire body when the rays only penetrate so far.  Get it? The numbers are higher, because it is the same amount of rays concentrated on less volume.  Sigh.

That’s the problem Chet, their math is fucked.  Well, one of the problems.  Off to eat more pie!

Comment #112: Ismone  on  11/26  at  01:37 AM

@115

Lower energy particles or beams are efficient in DEPOSITING THEIR ENERGY IN THE SKIN (thus, producing a dose). Other higher energy x-rays and gamma rays, deposit their energy in a much more diffuse manner (over many centimeters of tissue depth). Since dose is energy deposited per unit mass of material, the less concentrated energy deposition produces a lower dose. For example, for unshielded beta-gamma emitters, the skin dose from the gamma component is less than a few percent of the skin dose from the beta component.  It does seem counterintuitive that x-rays traveling through the body would be more dangerous, but in fact those high energy beams don’t interact as much with the molecules that make up your body as much as low energy beams/particles.  It does makes physical sense if you do some reading on basic radiation physics.

Comment #113: LPOPP  on  11/26  at  05:02 AM

@Chet

Apparently your “wade” consisted of one single point of unclear pertinence. Or was there something else in my post you thought was stupid? Could you elaborate?

You asked for this.  The idiocy of your original comments:

1.  “There are more important issues to think about” Derailing
2.  Ignoring that at least one answer to your “more important issue” had already been raised.
3.  Failing to actually add anything that would contribute to a discussion of your “more important issue.”
4.  Responding to snark about how someone else with little knowledge of physics doubts experts in physics by confirming that you also have little knowledge of physics and doubt experts in physics.
5.  Claiming that the skin acts like a bullet-proof vest against radiation.  I suppose that makes the actual protection we use against radiation, like a lead vest, the equivalent of shielding yourself from bullets by standing in a bunker?
6.  Claiming that no one who wrote the letter had any understanding of cancer and the human body.

I could probably continue, but those were the main things that had me giggling the first time through.  Considering that there is roughly half as much idiocy as there were sentences in your comments, I think it is fair to consider that wading.  The only things in your comments that could possibly be considered good points were:
1.  Airline security is for show.*
2.  It would be good to get people to realize that.

If you want, I can continue the list, but I don’t want to derail the thread with trying to prove to you that you often come off as not knowing (or caring) what the fuck you are talking about.  We’ve done that before (more than once I believe) and it led some commenters to claim that you are a troll.  If everyone is okay with it, I can point out the idiocy underlying your understanding of aspirin, doses, and urination as well.  Chet, I think you are a fun enough commenter and normally contribute something good.  Surely you’ve realized by now that most of the time that something good is content for the rest of us to giggle at, though. 

*This should probably also be on the idiocy list since it has already been said over and over again on this and the previous “Junk Touching” thread and you didn’t bother to add anything new to that discussion either.

Comment #114: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/26  at  03:24 PM

is 36 a joke? or is it the most ironic spambot ever?
Comment #38: alysia on 11/23 at 11:59 PM

Spammers are often not bots, but people who travel the blogosphere, doing a copypasta job or even making a stupid comment, putting in the link and reporting their work to the spam company that hires them, hoping for the three cents or whatever they would get if their link got used.  Easy to track that using referrer tags.

They probably get much less than the spam company charges to “popularize your website!”

The business of spam is all in the middleman.  It doesn’t have to be effective, the website owner who buys this service just has to think it is.

They could go to an airport and study this in the real world, but instead they just whip out a letter.  I’m glad they’re raising questions, but it sounds like they shouldn’t have a hard time coming up with the answers they seek.  It sounds to me like they want some research grants more than they want to get the answers.
Comment #41: 3letterjon on 11/24 at 12:09 AM

Yeah, I’m sure the TSA would be happy to have someone who says she’s from the UCSF walk up and say, “I’m here to inspect your unit.

They’re going on the basis of the way the scanners are reported by the government to work.  They’re using established health physics principles to evaluate the risk.

I’m reasonably sure unemployment statistics don’t come up during discussions about organized crime legbreakers and sundry hitmen,
Comment #67: preying mantis on 11/24 at 10:12 AM

Well, they do when it comes to not enough opportunities for employment for those young people who end up selling drugs on the street or committing petty crimes.

What I am upset about is the fact that because some people aren’t bothered by these things, the assumption is that the rest of us should just get over it, which is privilege in a nutshell.
Comment #85: speedbudget on 11/24 at 02:05 PM

Djinna didn’t say it was okay, just that she was so used to being poked and prodded that she personally didn’t feel she’d be upset by the physical action of more poking and prodding.

You chose to pathologize her personal feelings.  Not cool.

Comment #115: oldfeminist  on  11/26  at  08:13 PM

@Chet

Since actually reading the credentials of ALL of the letter-writers was too hard for you, then I don’t know why you asked me to explain why you seemed so stupid.  Obviously reading that presented you with just as much difficulty. 

I’m glad you had a laugh, but you simply made most of those things up.

Um…no, I didn’t.  You are just continuing to demonstrate that you have problems understanding what other people (be they famous poets, online comic writers, CSA bloggers, or fellow posters) say even when they spell it out to you.  However, I am also really glad I had a laugh…then and now.

I’ve derailed nothing

Even if that were true the first time, it certainly isn’t true now, is it?  I’ll do my part and stop feeding the maybe-troll.

Comment #116: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/27  at  03:59 AM

speedbudget, I really do appreciate where you’re coming from and do not at all think your thoughts on this (or pap smears) make you weird. I just didn’t think Djinna’s post deserved such a hostile reaction is all. I do believe the argument you were countering is out there, though, and I agree with 200% that “just get over it” is not an acceptable response for those raising privacy concerns. And I am always down for shots.


Ms Kate: do you feel silly having responded before reading the rest of the conversation?

Comment #117: antiope  on  11/27  at  09:55 AM

@Chet

I really wasn’t going to do this, but it is so sad watching you struggle.

Since actually reading the credentials of ALL of the letter-writers was too hard for you, then I don’t know why you asked me to explain why you seemed so stupid.

Editing scar.  Either switch the “Since” to an “If” or ignore the “, then.”

Reading: it is not as hard as you make it out to be.

You were so absolutely certain that I’d described skin as a “bulletproof vest against radiation” that you went back to impeach me with my own words, and then realized that you weren’t actually reading all that closely before, and that’s when you had an “oh shit” moment and realized you had to beg the whole thing off before you totally looked like a tool.

You may want to look up the word “analogy,” you have already used it once incorrectly on this thread, but it may help you to understand why this:

an X-ray could be safer because it has the energy to shoot all the way through your body instead of being reflected by the skin. Nothing about that seems reasonable or possible. It’s akin to saying that a bullet that passes through your spine does less damage than the one stopped by your kevlar vest.

was accurately described as “Claiming that the skin acts like a bullet-proof vest against radiation.”  So, skin:kevlar::x-ray:bullet

Did that help?  I wish I could pat your head, poor thing.

Comment #118: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/27  at  03:41 PM

@Chet

I see you didn’t take my advice on looking up the word “analogy.”  Shame.  You do know how to read the analogy notation, right?  I mean, you have to be good at something and if you know any math at all (which, y’know, I’d assume is on the way to learning a bit of physics and biochem), you should be able to figure it out.  (Hint: Ratios are analogies of numbers.)  Maybe you should also look up the word “akin”?

Also, for the record, saying that I would continue to tell you why you were stupid if no one else objects is not a flounce.  No one objected, so here I am.  What I meant by “not going to do this” was that I wasn’t going to attempt a remedial English lesson over the internet.  If you actually read what is written in these threads (including apparently what you yourself have written), it might be easier for you to follow along.

Comment #119: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/27  at  06:55 PM

Actually, I should be more precise given your total confusion with what you wrote.

X/Y and A/B are ratios, where X, Y, A, and B are non-zero numbers.

If we say X/Y = A/B, we have a proportion. (This can also be written X:Y::A:B, X is to Y as A is to B.)
When X, Y, A, and B are words or concepts instead of numbers, this relationship is referred to as an analogy. 

So, in your assertion

[The claim that] an X-ray could be safer because it has the energy to shoot all the way through your body instead of being reflected by the skin. Nothing about that seems reasonable or possible. It’s akin to saying that a bullet that passes through your spine does less damage than the one stopped by your kevlar vest.

We have X=X-ray, Y=skin, A=bullet, and B=kevlar vest.
X is to Y (in that x-rays reflect off skin) as (or, to use your terms “is akin to”) A is to B (in that bullets are stopped by kevlar vests).

This can be written as X:Y::A:B or, as I wrote is above, X:A::Y:B.  (You should be able to confirm this yourself with some basic arithmetic.)  When I wrote this out in words, it became “the skin acts like a bullet-proof [or kevlar vest stopping bullets] against radiation [or x-rays].”  This is a simile based upon the relationship you asserted in your analogy.  It basically means that Y has the same relationship that B has to A with X, or the relationship that Y has to X is the same as the relationship that B has to A.  Y:X::B:A or Y/X = B/A, which is true by your original assertion.  (Again, simple arithmetic will get you from X/Y = A/B to the inverses.)

Now, maybe where you are getting tripped up is that you claimed the original statement (that x-rays reflected off skin are not safer than those which are not) was ridiculous, but you matched it with a ridiculous statement (that bullets stopped by kevlar are not safer than those which are not).  The matching makes the two analogous, which means that the components of each statement are analogous to each other.  That is the way language works. 

Example: “1 is greater than 4.  Nothing about that seems reasonable or possible.  It is akin to saying that 3 is greater than 12.”  So, 1:4::3:12.  That is true because the relationship between 1 and 4 is analogous (in many ways) to the relationship between 3 and 12.  Both are unreasonable assertions because 1 is actually less than 4 just as 3 is actually less than 12.  Unless there is such an analogous relationship, there is no reason to use the word “akin” and, in fact, no reason to make any comparisons between the two at all.  If you didn’t want people to think that you had compared skin to a kevlar vest and radiation to bullets, you should not have used the word “akin” and you certainly should not have used parallel sentence structures since that in and of itself would imply the analogies and relationships I have now painstakingly spelled out.

Does that help you find the words you wrote that I declared idiotic?  I am not sure how much more I could dumb this down.  The remedial math students I’ve taught normally got the concept at this point.  (They would have needed help with the simple arithmetic I’ve left to you, but I hope that I am right in assuming that you are at least slightly above that level.)

Comment #120: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/27  at  07:35 PM

Hey Chet.  Read this.

http://myhelicaltryst.blogspot.com/2010/11/tsa-x-ray-backscatter-body-scanner.html?spref=fb

Including tasty bits like:

“Here is the real catch: the softer the X-ray, the more its absorbed by the body, and the higher the biologically relevant dose! This means, that this radiation is potentially worse than an a higher energy medical chest X-ray.”

“Most cosmic radiation is composed of high energy particles that passes right through our body and the plane itself without being absorbed.” 

Emphasis mine, but here he’s explaining why it’s not like having a bullet pass through your body and hit your spine, it’s like having a bullet pass through your body and hit nothing, because these bullets are super-tiny and your body is full of holes. Thinking an X-ray is like a bullet betrays your classical-mechanics style thinking.

The author probably doesn’t know what he’s talking about, however, since he says, “I am a biochemist working in the field of biophysics. Specifically, the lab I work in (as well as many others) has spent the better part of the last decade working on the molecular mechanism of how mutations in the breast cancer susceptibility gene, BRCA2, result in cancer. “

Comment #121: oldfeminist  on  11/29  at  04:54 PM
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