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Next entry: Republican leaders throw constituents under the conservative bus -  let the markets decide Previous entry: Another attempt to grant sperm more rights than women

Movie director “get out of rape free” card works on public, not on courts

If you want your stomach turned this early in the morning—-or even if you don’t, but you want to read a fascinating account of the automatic nature of rape condoning in our culture—-check out Bill Wyman’s account of the whitewashing of Roman Polanski’s crime of anally raping a 13-year-old, a crime that keeps him from returning to the U.S. (because he’s running from justice), and a crime that he’s trying to clear his name of, even though he admitted that he did it.  In fact, there’s absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he drugged and raped a 13-year-old girl.  When there’s so little doubt about guilt regarding other crimes, there’s rarely this sort of public hand-wringing about whether the guilty is really guilty, but we’re talking rape and we’re talking about our rape culture.  A rape culture is a funhouse mirror version of the anti-choice culture’s attitudes about abortion.  Anti-choicers want abortion to be illegal with the three exceptions being health, rape, and me.  Rape apologists, who still sadly dominate the discourse, think rape should basically be legal except for dark alleys, virgin daughters, and me.  Even though every single rape apologist claims to oppose rape, they find ways to claim that rape isn’t rape, even when the victim is 13, drugged, and pleading with you to stop as you rape her up the ass.  Rape apologists in fact tend to see the victims as the real criminals, with some rape apologists suggesting mandatory criminal charges against victims if the prosecution can’t find the defendant guilty, which is another way they agitate to legalize rape without coming out and saying so.  If you can’t report a crime, it’s de facto legal.

Since both traditions stem from the same misogynist place, you occasionally see darkly funny examples where rape apologists see forced childbirth as the appropriate punishment for a rape victim, except one of the three major exceptions.  Take Bill Napoli’s famous comment about who “deserves” an abortion

A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated. I mean, that girl could be so messed up, physically and psychologically, that carrying that child could very well threaten her life.


Anti-choice sentiment is part of the rape culture, of course, because like rape apologists, anti-choicers view women as subhuman and our bodies as eligible for being commandeered for others to their own ends.  So this isn’t a surprise.  And I read rape apologies (and lately, with the Chris Brown/Rihanna thing, sympathy for domestic abusers) all the time, even ones funded by taxpayer dollars, so I shouldn’t be as shocked as I am to read Wyman’s account of this documentary “Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired”, but I think I was mostly because the pro-rape tone to the whole thing leaned on every tired cliche that more practiced rape apologists have learned to disguise a little bit better.

They can’t outright accuse the victim of lying , because Polanski admitted that it’s true.  But what’s fascinating is whether or not a rape victim’s account is given social weight by being collaborated by a Be-penised American, the same slurs come out as would if rape apologists thought they could get away with calling the victim a liar.  This documentary has them all: She’s not a virgin.  She puts herself in situations with rascally men on purpose, because she wants to get something out of them.  Can’t you see he’s a good guy?  In a sense, calling a victim a liar is the same narrative as saying she deserved to be raped, so it wasn’t a rape at all.  They fold into the same story, to the degree that, “She’s lying,” is probably code in many cases for, “She had it coming.” 

Wyman, and most decent people I’d think, are more shocked when the “deserving victim” narrative is trotted out for someone who isn’t old enough to be in high school yet, but we shouldn’t be.  Nobody deserves rape at all, so to suggest minor victims deserve it even less is mathematically impossible.  If utterly undeserving (and all victims are utterly undeserving) grown women get the full-blown slander treatment, then of course minor victims will get it.  Maybe even more, since they’re even less capable of defending themselves and therefore juicier targets.  Interestingly, this is why teenagers get raped more than adult women, as well, so indeed the post-rape victim slander is, as reported by victims, experienced as a continuation of the rape because it is

Polanski gets all this defense for what he did because he’s a great artist.  I’ve argued in the past that his art shouldn’t be spoiled by the creepy bastard that is the man.  I think “Rosemary’s Baby” is one of the most feminist horror films I’ve ever seen, and that isn’t changed by my fear that the director was getting off on torturing poor Rosemary.  To this audience, at least, it reads like a tale where the patriarchy is literally Satanic.  But just as his crimes shouldn’t detract from the greatness of his art, nor should the greatness of his art compel anyone to overlook his crimes.  If anything, the extreme lengths the judge in his case went to in order to make sure his celebrity didn’t allow him to escape justice were justified because not only does our culture go light on men who commit gender hate crimes against women, that goes double for celebrities.  People are simple-minded in this sense—-they can’t swallow that someone who did something they liked (made great movies) also did something horrible that requires justice (raped a 13-year-old), and so they deny that the celebrity is a criminal.  In fact, that’s another cheap trick the director of “Wanted and Desired” does—-she shows people declaring that Polanski isn’t a rapist, therefore he couldn’t have actually raped the girl he raped.  But since he did rape her, he is in fact a rapist, and any and all attempts to suggest otherwise are pure denial and/or a tacit admission that you think some kinds of rape (of non-virgins, even adolescent ones, perhaps) should be legal.

It’s simple in that sense, but in another, it’s actually kind of complicated.  Polanski’s defenders clearly romanticize him as a masculine rebel—-Wyman describes the portray of Polanski as “Byronic”, which is apt, since Byron was also a romantic figure of rascally masculinity, complete with the misogyny implied.  And that’s the fundamental issue with rape apologists—-most of them have this deep affection for predatory masculinity.  Some are predators, some romanticize predators, and a lot are weaklings who think that being a predator makes you strong.  There’s different strains of this romanticization.  Most of the troglodyte wingnut rape apologists you’ll meet on the interwebs romanticize frat daddies and kind of wish they could slap on a baseball cap backwards and rape passed-out college-aged women.  But then there’s the more “sophisticated” version that Wyman targets here, which he calls “continental”, which is a tad unfair, because I doubt European women like being raped anymore than American women.  But I know what he’s getting at.  The sort of people who don’t much understand the frat daddy rapists, but think there’s almost something glamorous if you’re artistic and your chosen victims are 13 years old and therefore sure to shock the bourgeoisie, who otherwise are tolerant to supportive of rape, as long as the victims are a little older and more ruined. 

Of course, I’m a fun-killing feminist who thinks all rape makes you a suck-ass rapist who should go to jail.  I’m sure this puts me and Bob Herbert in the “boring” category, though it’s worth pointing out that bores like me are asking for a world that is in fact more fun for women.  Which makes us “fun-killing” only if you don’t think women have subjective experiences like real human beings. 

Anyway, read the story.  It’s super-interesting, and good for beefing up your resistance to the same slanders when they’re aimed at older and therefore less sympathetic targets than the 13-year-old that Polanski raped. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:13 PM • (161) Comments

I think that the Salon article took the pendulum a little too far in the other direction in neglecting the legal and procedural quirks where Polanski was about to accept some sort of plea agreement with the prosecuting attorney, and also in discounting the victim’s current desires for cloture on the issue (this was pointed out in about comment 10 or so). The fact that Wyman refers to the “judicial misconduct supposedly uncovered in the documentary” neglects the fact that I’ve heard about this misconduct for years and years before the documentary.

However, the Salon article reads like a welcome dose of reality compared to the weird revisionism and rape apologetics shown the documentary’s excerpts. And, as a legal issue, no way should the case be dismissed. Perhaps he should abide the original plea agreement with interest tacked on for the last three decades.

Comment #1: norbizness  on  02/19  at  01:44 PM

I know a shocking number of people (all liberals, most identifying in at least some sense as feminist or pro-feminist) who don’t believe that the Polanski thing was “really” rape, or if anything a statutory rape technicality due to the age of the girl.  Which frankly nauseates me. 

I know they feel that way because they really like Polanski’s work and hate having to hold “brilliant genius” and “depraved rapist” in their minds at the same time.  I also think it also has something to do with the way we romanticize the 70’s, especially the “sexual revolution” aspects - this is obviously a situation where the decadence of that era stepped over the line and stopped being sexy, and started being blatantly fucking immoral.  Which is hard for a lot of people to accept - they don’t want to acknowledge that there was a genuine dark side to this legendary artistic period they all idolize.

Comment #2: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  01:48 PM

I think that the Salon article took the pendulum a little too far in the other direction in…discounting the victim’s current desires for cloture on the issue

How is this relevant?

Comment #3: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  01:49 PM

Then Wyman should either have said it’s irrelevant and not brought it up, rather than hypocritically pooh-poohing it after claiming to be concerned with whatever justice is meted out on her behalf (i.e. discussing her grand jury testimony).

Comment #4: norbizness  on  02/19  at  01:53 PM

Wyman is responding to the public controversy surrounding the story.

The girl in the case is now in her 40s; she has said the case is behind her and that she has forgiven Polanski. (The documentary waits until the end to note that this came only after she settled a civil case against the director.) But the issue here isn’t Polanski being left alone; he’s the one trying to get his case dismissed.

He’s acknowledging the “Let Him Go Free” crowd’s so-called “point” that, yes, the victim has stated that she has “forgiven” Polanski (probably just to get on with her life), but that her forgiveness in the matter has nothing to do with the fact that Polanski is still trying to grand-stand his way into a dismissal on the ground that he’s just too-fucking-special for the law to apply to him.

Comment #5: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  01:56 PM

Nor is Wyman claiming that this is about “justice for her” as opposed to justice period. The grand jury testimony was brought up to show that the documentary clearly chose NOT to include it.

Comment #6: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  01:57 PM

This case has been bugging me for years. When I was in film school my peers seemed to assume that Polanski was a victim of the puritanical US judicial system. Then I actually read the facts of the case: she was 13, not 17. She was drugged. The crime he was being charged with was rape, not statutory rape. The statutory rape conviction was the result of a plea bargin. Then he fled jurisdiction. The man is a bastard and a rapist. Period. The fact that the victim has changed her mind is irrelevant, because in our system the government prosecutes crimes, not the victim.

The conviction cannot and should not be vacated if we are a just society. He PLEAD GUILTY. He fled jurisdiction. If he wants to appeal that is his right, but he can’t appeal on the run. This case is everything that is worst about the male-centered hollywood culture (even more so in the 1970s)

Comment #7: stephen  on  02/19  at  02:04 PM

Norbiz, he fled jurisdiction. He wants to appeal he is welcome to come back, surrender, and appeal.

Comment #8: stephen  on  02/19  at  02:05 PM

I know a shocking number of people (all liberals, most identifying in at least some sense as feminist or pro-feminist) who don’t believe that the Polanski thing was “really” rape, or if anything a statutory rape technicality due to the age of the girl.  Which frankly nauseates me.

I realize this will probably bring out the trolls, but I would like someone - anyone, really - to explain how a 13 year old can meaningfully consent to sex with an adult. Emphasis on the work “meaningfully”.

I fear this comes from the “girls become ‘women’ as soon as their first period kicks in” mentality and it turns my stomach. Alara has dealt with this more eloquently than I, but I do not believe that the reproductive ability to create new children makes one automatically less of a mental child, nor does it make children into over-night mental woman / man / adult.

Comment #9: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  02:12 PM

High on my list of “fascinating if not quite consistent” books is Marianne Sinclair’s Hollywood Lolitas, which talks all about Hollywood’s and American culture’s obsession with the idea of little girls who are sexually mature (or could be sexually mature with the “right” Humbert Humbert).  It doesn’t entirely hold together and revels in the prurience a little too much, but it has some really interesting commentary about the Polanski case in light of the history of Hollywood and DW Griffith’s obsession with teenage girls that underlies many of his films.  It doesn’t excuse Polanski—at all—but points out that what he did was on the continuum of what is/was considered normal in Hollywood, which is one of the reasons he has so many defenders.

When you have movies essentially pimping Shirley Temple out as a seven-year-old coquette after doing Marlene Dietrich impersonations from the age of 3, it doesn’t seem so very strange in that world for someone to claim that a 13-year-old is completely cognizant of what she’s doing.

There’s also quite a bit about ambitious Hollywood moms, and “Sandra” had one of those.  Why on earth would you take your pretty 13-year-old to meet a director who’s a notorious pedophile and then leave her alone with him at his house?  Seriously, WTF?

Comment #10: Mnemosyne  on  02/19  at  02:20 PM

“I know a shocking number of people (all liberals, most identifying in at least some sense as feminist or pro-feminist) who don’t believe that the Polanski thing was “really” rape,”

Liberals are not any less misogynistic than any other group.  They *should* be, since misogyny goes directly against liberal/progressive values, but far too many of them are blind to it.  They still think “edgy” = “funny”, after all.

Hence the invention of the word “fauxgressives” - those that claim to be progressive, while holding onto sexism and male privilege.

Comment #11: Gypsy Lee  on  02/19  at  02:24 PM

(Thank you for the book recommendation, Mnemosyne. I love Pandagon book recommendations - I’ve got an Amazon wishlist full of them.)

Comment #12: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  02:25 PM

But that’s, the point, Essie.  If you’re responding solely to the public controversy, then why poo-poo legit legal issues?  But yeah, the larger point that Wyman’s making is relevant.  It really never stops shocking me how much people play right into the hands of rape apologists, and the warm reception this movie got is another example.  It reminds me in no small part of how warmly people received that movie that came out a few years ago touting some grand conspiracy theory about how Courtney Love killed her husband. It seems that no matter how ridiculous the claim, if it’s wrapped up in misogyny, it’s brilliant instead of bizarre.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  02:27 PM

Stephen: You, I, and Mr. Wyman all agree on that solution.

I wonder if it all comes down to fanboyism/fanpersonism: if Charles Barkley gets a DWI while a member of the Phoenix Suns, I say let the bastard break rocks on a stretch of I-10… if he gets one while a member of the Houston Rockets, I suddenly become more a quivering pile of hypocritical apologetics. Similarly, if you substitute Michael Bay for Roman Polanski, my response might not have been any more than “throw away the key.”

Comment #14: norbizness  on  02/19  at  02:32 PM

The fact that the victim has changed her mind is irrelevant, because in our system the government prosecutes crimes, not the victim.
~ ~ stephen

Just a smallpoint: while I agree with your post wholeheartedly, I do want to focus a bit on the above quote.  His victim didn’t “change her mind”, rather she said she’s forgiven him.  There’s a difference.  She’s probably forgiven him in order to remove the weight from her shoulders (I say “probably” b/c I don’t know her full reasoning for doing so; she’s a better woman than I think I would be in that situation).  The wording “changed her mind” makes her sound - to me, mind you - wishy-washy, whereas forgiveness is something that - again, to me - a very strong person does. Not that wishy-washyness & strength are true opposites.  This all makes sense in my head, I just have a tough time putting it into words.

Comment #15: fastiller  on  02/19  at  02:35 PM

He wants to be pardoned or otherwise allowed to enter the US?

How about EXTRADITED?

Comment #16: Ms Kate  on  02/19  at  02:36 PM

The victim didn’t, I don’t think, change her mind.  She forgave him, which is a personal issue and not a legal one.  In fact, people who commit crimes are forgiven by their victims all the time, and this doesn’t change their sentence.  Forgiveness, in our culture, is almost a religious issue, or at least an emotional coping issue.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  02:37 PM

I read the article last night and I felt that Wyman did address the procedural bullshit around the case—I know very little about the matter other than “Polanski drugged and raped a girl over at his friend Jack’s place, fled country, can’t come back, victim has forgiven him.” Reading the article I feel much more informed than I was, I wasn’t previously aware that the judge was out for blood and that Polanski could have had a case for having the judgement thrown out if he hadn’t fled the country and acted like a complete douche since the conviction. So no, I don’t think the article was biased. I thought it made a very clear case that just because there were problems with the trial, it doesn’t excuse Polanski’s attempt to flee justice, the behavior of the defense attorney, or the documentary’s efforts to whitewash what happened.

And yeah, her publicly declaration of forgiveness counts for jack squat in this situation. If you give a 13 year old girl wine and reds so that you can “seduce her” and, despite her pleas that you stop proceed to rape her in the ass because she says she’s not on the pill, her ability a few decades later to put that behind her doesn’t mean that you won’t do it again when you’ve admitted that you’ve done it; don’t see anything wrong with what you’ve done; and don’t think you should be punished for it because there’s no reason to believe you won’t do it again. I’m not a big fan of using our incarceration system as a punishment mechanism, but I do believe that it should be used as a public safety mechanism and a corrections mechanism. If you’re raping people and don’t feel that what you’ve done is so terribly wrong, you should be put away until you can get it through your damn rapist skull that raping people is wrong and you shouldn’t do it anymore.

Comment #18: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/19  at  02:37 PM

Essie Elephant, I think many people believe that if a young girl “has experience” (i.e. has been abused before), she’s open for business.  Or if she has a troubled home life and seeks attention in all the wrong places, adult men are just giving her what she wants and what’s wrong with that?

Comment #19: SarahMC  on  02/19  at  02:37 PM

I realize this will probably bring out the trolls, but I would like someone - anyone, really - to explain how a 13 year old can meaningfully consent to sex with an adult. Emphasis on the work “meaningfully”.

Irrelevant issue in this case, though.  He raped her over her protests.  This wasn’t a statutory rape issue, but a traditional rape in the sense of having sex with someone who has explicitly told you no.  So, I don’t even see the relevance, except that it’s brought up by rape apologists who then would be seeking ways to legalize the rape of minors by pretending it was just a statutory issue instead of a legitimate non-consent issue.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  02:39 PM

I do not believe that the reproductive ability to create new children makes one automatically less of a mental child, nor does it make children into over-night mental woman / man / adult.

It’s funny, because I somewhat disagree with this, but still agree that people under the age of 18 are considered legally unable to consent (to anything), and so it shouldn’t matter whether we socially or medically consider 13 year olds “women” or not, and thus statutory rape laws should stand. 

In fact, part of what I find shocking about the general attitude towards this case is that, nowadays, if a 13 year old of either sex was drugged under the supervision of a major filmmaker, it would be a scandal of epic proportions.  Even leaving aside the rape stuff.  Our society has become a lot more protective of children, and a lot more willing to consider a 13 year old a child, in the intervening decades since this happened.  And yet we still manage to find a way to excuse Polanski’s behavior.

Comment #21: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  02:40 PM

Exactly Opoponax ... even Priests are doing time for this shit nowadays.

However, as someone who was not much different in age than the victim, I can tell you that Generation X recoiled with revulsion at the Sexual Morass that was Disco, and things have continued to change ever sense.  If you ever saw Boogie Nights, it pretty much describes how it all had gone to hell at that point.

Comment #22: Ms Kate  on  02/19  at  02:43 PM

You can read the testimony, starting here, that explains it.  The girls was drugged, and unable to fight back, but she did protest.  Classic rape, not at all a “can she consent” issue, because she did not consent at all.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  02:44 PM

As for forgiveness, it was likely something the woman did to get on with her own life and take responsibility for that which came after.

Comment #24: Ms Kate  on  02/19  at  02:44 PM

Also, awesome on Polanski for claiming that the whole thing was a setup by the victim’s mother to trap poor sweet Roman in a casting couch scandal. Because what man could resist offering to take naked photographs of a 13-year-old girl, giving her champagne and quaaludes, and then putting his dick in her ass?  It was a total setup!!!! Little girl: Slutmobile. Slutmobile’s mom? Gold-digging bitch.

Comment #25: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/19  at  02:49 PM

Yeah, I think this case really gets to the heart of our desire to make everyone out to be saints or sinners, perfect heroes or victims, or else evil people with nothing to contribute except pain and hatred.

We want our serial killers to never have been “family men”, our political heroes to never have been womanizers or drunks and so we like to scrub the nasty parts out one way or another. I think it’s to avoid facing the messy soup of life and also forgiving and escaping blame for oneself. As long as one is plain and boring and follows the rules, they’ll never be compared to a “great hero” because only the special chosen are perfect enough to do what they did nor will they ever devolve into a monster because those people are literally born with Satan in their hearts.

I think the Polanski thing hits home because it shatters this illusion with a sledgehammer. He has a history befitting our beloved “great heroes and tragic stories”. His pregnant wife and friends killed by Manson, parents escaping the nazis, mom killed by them, tortured artist making great work. This fits our narrative so well we want to follow it to the end, but then he commits an act that is equally in the unquestionably the behavior of a monster by the same narrow checklist.

It freezes up that either/or thinking because they can’t stand to wipe out the greatness with the monstrosity, but the very fact that he confessed to the crime means they can’t just make the horror go away. I think the misogyny has been tipping the scales and letting the either/or thinkers make him back into a hero, but I think it raises the hackles because it’s clearly a demonstration that people are more than those perfect hollywood roles. Someone we don’t like can be a victim, someone we love a victimizer and we can’t just shield ourselves from “bad things happening” by making sure the “right types of people” are around us at all times.

We’d actually have to confront the social problems that underly them and admit they can show up in anyone and that doesn’t erase what else they’ve done. I still love Polanski and Miles Davis’s work despite the horrific crimes they have perpetuated in life. Though I still am not fully clear as I’m still intensely depressed when I confront that personal fact about them and it does slightly sour my future enjoyment.

Comment #26: Cerberus  on  02/19  at  02:52 PM

If you’re raping people and don’t feel that what you’ve done is so terribly wrong, you should be put away until you can get it through your damn rapist skull that raping people is wrong and you shouldn’t do it anymore.

Quoted for extreme truth.

Irrelevant issue in this case, though.  He raped her over her protests.  This wasn’t a statutory rape issue, but a traditional rape in the sense of having sex with someone who has explicitly told you no.  So, I don’t even see the relevance, except that it’s brought up by rape apologists who then would be seeking ways to legalize the rape of minors by pretending it was just a statutory issue instead of a legitimate non-consent issue.

Too true, and thank you for the reminder. I was distracted by the “statutory shouldn’t be illegal” crowds that sickens me.

Comment #27: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  02:56 PM

I picked up a copy of the original Cape Fear, with Mitchum and Peck. I hadn’t realized, last time I saw it, that the entire movie is about our fucked up rape culture. Mitchum is going to rape Peck’s daughter and there isn’t much Peck can do about it. I was really surprised by the politics of it—very loud.

Of course, it is 1962 so they somehow figured out how to make daddy the victim.

Comment #28: humanadverb  on  02/19  at  03:08 PM

It seems that no matter how ridiculous the claim, if it’s wrapped up in misogyny, it’s brilliant instead of bizarre.

*cough* People vs. Larry Flynt *cough*

Comment #29: DonnaDiva  on  02/19  at  03:22 PM

How about EXTRADITED?

This is exactly what I’ve never understood about this case. How in the HELL is what he did not an extraditable offense? Does anyone out there know why this toad has never been extradited?

Comment #30: Steve LaBonne  on  02/19  at  03:25 PM

I think the Polanski thing hits home because it shatters this illusion with a sledgehammer. He has a history befitting our beloved “great heroes and tragic stories”.

It also belies the cultural myth that being abused/bullied or having lived through various horrors somehow “builds character”.

Comment #31: Ms Kate  on  02/19  at  03:38 PM

I think the Polanski thing hits home because it shatters this illusion with a sledgehammer. He has a history befitting our beloved “great heroes and tragic stories”.

It also belies the cultural myth that being abused/bullied or having lived through various horrors somehow “builds character”.

I always assumed he got a free pass because the horrors in his life had so shattered his moral compass that you couldn’t really blame him for being so messed up that he raped a little girl.

It’s one part “he deserves a freebie now and again after all he’s been through” and two parts “he can’t tell the difference between right and wrong after all the horrors he’s seen” with a little smattering of “he-men survivors deserve a little compensation from the world”.

IMO.

Comment #32: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  03:43 PM

Yes Polanski is trying to use his asshole license, which is routinely granted to certified Great Men of the Arts by the arts & entertainment culture. I wrote about this phenomenon a few years ago and I also recall having a debate with Amanda and Lindsay from Majikthese about it - at that time they were on the pro-Great Man of the Arts side.  Please feel free to check your archives, Amanda, for the discussion I’m talking about - I’m guessing it would be 2005 or 2006.

Comment #33: Nancy  on  02/19  at  03:48 PM

This is exactly what I’ve never understood about this case. How in the HELL is what he did not an extraditable offense? Does anyone out there know why this toad has never been extradited?

The terms of the extradition treaty between France and the US.  Under the original 1909 treaty, rape is a subject for extradition, but not statutory rape (not also that in that document, abortion is an extraditable offense).  Poland’s is loose enough for him to skip under it there as well.  And, in the case of France, there’s been diplomatic issues which tends to limit how much one government looks at requests from the other.

Polanski has been very careful to avoid countries with tighter treaties (and friendlier relations) to the US, like the UK and Canada.  Were he to set foot in London he’d be promptly put on the first jet across the Pond.

Comment #34: KeithM  on  02/19  at  03:49 PM

I have the same ambiguity about watching and enjoying Polanski’ work that I do Woody Allen’s.  Allen’s moral failure of course was not as heinous as Polanski’s, but still a civilized man does not seduce the minor adopted child of his live in girlfriend.  The fact that Soon Yi married the clod doesn’t excuse his act in my mind, and probably not in Mia Farrow’s either.  But Hollywood hails him as a genius and actors of both sexes long to work for him.  Maybe Polanski should try Allen’s excuse, “The heart wants what the heart wants.”

Comment #35: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/19  at  03:58 PM

Thanks. So evidently the plea deal having been only to statutory rape is what enables France to refuse to extradite him. Gah. Seems like the prosecutor back then really screwed up by dropping the other charges, or gave him special celebrity treatment.

Comment #36: Steve LaBonne  on  02/19  at  04:02 PM

I’m interested in direct quotes from myself or Lindsay that say that Polanski shouldn’t do the time for his crime, Nancy. My opinion has not moved.  It moves on other things, but not on this.  I will watch his movies without guilt.  He should go to jail.  If I recall correctly, the dispute is whether these things are mutually exclusive or can both be true.  I was on the side of the latter, you on the former.  That hasn’t changed; read the post.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  04:07 PM

Amanda, this is a really good post, thank you for writing it.  I especially appreciate that you did not shy away from the “great artist” aspect and I think this is a perfectly clear and appropriate summation:

But just as his crimes shouldn’t detract from the greatness of his art, nor should the greatness of his art compel anyone to overlook his crimes.

Thank you for that.  I don’t understand how people can have such difficulty with this.  Do I think Polanski is a rapist who should serve jail time for his crime?  Absolutely.  Do I also think Chinatown is, hands down, one of the greatest films ever made that never stops delighting me?  Also yes.  I am OK with both of these.

Again, good piece looking at the entire rape culture, Polanski’s place in it, and all of our collective uncomfortableness dealing with it.

Comment #38: Angie  on  02/19  at  04:16 PM

France can have him.

Comment #39: Bitter Scribe  on  02/19  at  04:17 PM

I’m interested in direct quotes from myself or Lindsay that say that Polanski shouldn’t do the time for his crime, Nancy.

I don’t have access to those archives, or I would gladly share. I never said that you thought any criminals should get away with their crimes.

But his crimes DO reflect on his art. Unless you think there are two Polanskis in there. The rapist and the Great Master. And his raping a 13 year old has GOT to impact your view of his directing a scene in which John Huston’s character tells Jack Nicholson’s character that he doesn’t blame himself for raping his daughter.

If he was a good plumber and you had to admit that the rapist was a good plumber, that would be one thing - but his work dealt with morality. It makes him a world class hypocrite. Is that who you want to direct your works of art that deal with morality? A gigantic hypocrite? If so then your ability to compartmentalize is far far greater than mine. Is that really a good thing?

Comment #40: Nancy  on  02/19  at  04:25 PM

I realize this will probably bring out the trolls, but I would like someone - anyone, really - to explain how a 13 year old can meaningfully consent to sex with an adult. Emphasis on the work “meaningfully”.

Ages of consent are all over the place.  See here.  So you’re dealing with social expectations rather than anything grounded in objective fact - these days, I have doubts about 18 year olds being mature enough to consent, which is a huge change from when I was 16.  Neil Postman’s _The Disappearance of Childhood_ is probably also relevant here, and generally worth a read if you haven’t before.

As Amanda has said, this isn’t a matter of statutory rape.  Presumably, he’d have also have been charged in Spain.

Comment #41: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/19  at  04:27 PM

Do I also think Chinatown is, hands down, one of the greatest films ever made that never stops delighting me?  Also yes.  I am OK with both of these.

The credit for that goes primarily to Robert Towne’s screenplay.

Comment #42: Nancy  on  02/19  at  04:28 PM

Actually a victim forgiving a criminal can reduce the sentance or not bring any charges at all.

This needs to be mentioned because it does like the Judge was out to get Polanski and did do several things that if true get cases thrown out all the time. http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/17/polanksi.fugitive.hearing/index.html

“Polanski pleaded guilty in 1977 to a single count of having unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor. The director, his lawyer and the prosecutor handling the case believed they’d hammered out a deal that would spare the young victim a public trial and Polanski jail time, according to the filing.

The first surprise came when Judge Laurence J. Rittenband sent Polanski to prison for “diagnostic testing” to determine whether he was what then was called a “mentally disturbed sex offender.” (The results came in after Polanski spent 42 days at a maximum security prison. He wasn’t.)

The second surprise came on the eve of sentencing, when Rittenband informed the attorneys that he was inclined to send Polanski back to prison for another 48 days.”

As she has from the beginning, the victim says Polanksi shouldn’t go to prison. Samantha Geimer, now 45, married and a mother of three children, sued Polanski and received an undisclosed settlement. She long ago came forward and made her identity public—mainly, she said, because she was disturbed by how the criminal case had been handled.

Earlier this month she filed a court declaration accusing prosecutors of victimizing her yet again by publicizing graphic details of the sexual encounter.”

Comment #43: tootiredoftheright  on  02/19  at  04:30 PM

Nancy, my position hasn’t changed one iota.  I’m sure the man put himself in his art in all sorts of ways, including his misogynist sadism.  Most art reflects our misogynist culture.  But nope, I’m still firmly in the “can’t write it all off” camp.

The problem is that if you write off artists who are rapists, but not artists who are murderers, imperialists, sexists, racists, and other sundry sins, you’re implying rape is a special crime above all others that merits a suspension of critical thinking that other crimes do not merit.  As a woman and as a rape survivor and therefore as someone with a mega-interest in this, I refuse to do that.  I am not more sinned against than the Jews who died in the concentration camps, for instance, but to boycott Polanski and not a fascist like Ezra Pound is to suggest that rape is worse than genocide, and I’m not going to do that. 

Boycotting has become a useless political exercise because it’s not about direct action to pressure a company to change policy, but instead this weird purifying ritual some people left and right engage in to make themselves feel like they’re “doing something” without doing anything at all.  Refusing to watch Polanski’s movies does nothing to advance the cause of women.  Ironically, engaging in a critical discussion of the feminist implications of “Rosemary’s Baby” does a lot, though.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  04:36 PM

Nancy, you’re engaging the narrative I decried, the bizarre notion that one character flaw could be so severe, it could actually infect someone’s competence at art.  That’s wrong.  Lord Byron fucked his sister, but was still a great poet.  The notion that Polanski is a rapist and therefore it is physically impossible for him to be a great director makes no sense logically or in reality.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  04:37 PM

Piator, I generally tend to come down on the opposite side of arguments than you, but I do respect you the more for recommending Postman’s book. I do own and have read it, and I find it very interesting, although I do think he tends to confuse DOES with SHOULD sometimes. (Don’t we all struggle with that, though.) I’m also very fond of Amusing Ourselves to Death.

And I do get what you are saying about the fluidity of maturity. But I still maintain that a child that is barely reproductively “activated” cannot meaningfully consent to sex with an adult.

Comment #46: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  04:38 PM

I’ll add that your well-meaning attempts to claim that “great director” and “rapist” must somehow be mutually exclusive categories ironically only helps rapists like Polanski get off.  All he has to do is point out that he is a great director, and therefore can’t be a rapist.  And people buy that, because they believe, as you seem to do, that rapists cannot have anything good about them.

Comment #47: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  04:40 PM

When is the documentary defending Michael Jackson going to show up ?

Ih, I get it, MJ is black and freakish, not “Byroneske” like Polansky…

Comment #48: Renmiri  on  02/19  at  04:41 PM

And I do get what you are saying about the fluidity of maturity. But I still maintain that a child that is barely reproductively “activated” cannot meaningfully consent to sex with an adult.

When I was 14, I sat next to a girl who was pregnant (and presumably had had sex at 13 or 14) - and seemed to have her shit together about it more than some 20-somethings I could name.  Making blanket statements about *emotional* maturity leaves me uneasy.

Comment #49: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/19  at  04:43 PM

This needs to be mentioned because it does like the Judge was out to get Polanski and did do several things that if true get cases thrown out all the time. [...]

“The second surprise came on the eve of sentencing, when Rittenband informed the attorneys that he was inclined to send Polanski back to prison for another 48 days.”

A judge has the authority to disregard a plea agreement and sentence the defendant to prison when that wasn’t part of the deal.  I don’t know anything about the judge or the details of how he handled the case, but I can imagine that after reading the girl’s account of what happened, the judge might not be inclined to go along with the prosecutor in letting him get off virtually scot free.  That’s not judicial misconduct.  Also, while I think there are instances when taking the victim’s wishes into account are appropriate, that’s not always the case.  (Think domestic violence.)

Comment #50: Raging Red  on  02/19  at  04:45 PM

I still love Polanski and Miles Davis’s work despite the horrific crimes they have perpetuated in life.

What did Miles Davis do?  I know he was a druggie, but I haven’t heard anything other than that.

 

People’s attitudes about this case demonstrate clearly why we have to continue to have statutory rape laws in this country.  It’s virtually impossible to get a forcible rape conviction, and can you imagine the field day a defense attorney would have with a victim who didn’t say no or who “only” said no and didn’t physically resist?  Get rid of statutory rape laws and virtually no rapist who attacks adolescents or teenagers would ever get convicted.

Comment #51: keshmeshi  on  02/19  at  04:45 PM

PiaToR—Because she wasn’t flipping her shit every waking moment while she “sat next to” you doesn’t mean she was emotionally mature enough to have sex. She obviously wasn’t mature enough to insist on birth control. And the 20-somethings who don’t have their shit together—so what? Because a 14 year old was able to keep going to school despite her pregnancy doesn’t mean she’s magically super-responsible adult woman whose emotional maturity is a foregone conclusion.

And furthermore, I call bullshit on your need to muddy the waters.

Polanski gave her quaaludes and champagne. She protested and he raped her anyway.

Stop making this sound like one of those hand-wringing cases of a poor 18 year old boy who gets arrested for fucking his 17 year old girlfriend. This man drugged and raped someone. The fact that she was 13 years old is not the crime. Polanski fucking drugged and raped someone, and to top it off, she was only 13.

Comment #52: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/19  at  04:53 PM

When I was 14, I sat next to a girl who was pregnant…

The fact that she seemed on the surface to be “mature” to you during pregnancy, it does not follow that she was mentally an <b>adult<b> either prior to or after sex.

Anecdotes of “well, she seemed fine to me!” prove nothing about mental maturity.

Comment #53: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  04:53 PM

“Get rid of statutory rape laws and virtually no rapist who attacks adolescents or teenagers would ever get convicted. “

Which isn’t very different from what happens now.  How many pre-teens have judges said were asking for it, wanted it, knew what they were getting into?  That said, i think the outcome you describe is exactly what the desired outcome is (for those seeking it).  Call me cynical.

Comment #54: Gypsy Lee  on  02/19  at  04:57 PM

And his raping a 13 year old has GOT to impact your view of his directing a scene in which John Huston’s character tells Jack Nicholson’s character that he doesn’t blame himself for raping his daughter.

It’s funny that you both deny Polanski any credit for producing the brilliant work of art that is Chinatown, and also blame him for having the NERVE to direct a scene written into the film by the writer you just gave all the credit to. 

Not to mention that Chinatown was made years before the rape, so I don’t really see what your point is, at all—someone worked on a film with a subplot pertaining to rape, and then years later raped someone, so therefore…?

What, was he supposed to say, “Well, this script talks about rape, and raping a young girl is pretty much at the top of my list of things to do before I die.  I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to recuse myself from directing your film…”?

Comment #55: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  05:01 PM

I have the same ambiguity about watching and enjoying Polanski’ work that I do Woody Allen’s.

Not me. They both suck on ice. And then there’s the whole pedophile thing.

Samantha Geimer herself put it best when told that Polanski had won a libel suit regarding another alleged case of the man propositioning an underage model;  “Surely a man like this hasn’t got a reputation to tarnish?”

Fucking Brits. Is there another nation on Earth where you could win a libel trial over accusations of pedophilia - in an American publication - while testifying via satellite from France because if you came to Britain in person you’d be extradited for child rape!?

Comment #56: Sarcastro  on  02/19  at  05:05 PM

I think a big part of victim blaming is due to fear.  Everyone likes to believe that rapists are only scary guys who look a certain way, so that it’s easy to identify them and avoid them.  But if an average man, or even a great man is also a rapist, then it could be anybody that you know.  It’s often easier to pretend that normal men can’t be rapists than to think you need to fear every man you know.  This happened when a classmate in college turned out to be a rapist and another classmate was the victim.  Some of the people who were friends with the rapist just didn’t want to face the reality that it could have easily been them instead.

Comment #57: bananacat  on  02/19  at  05:08 PM

But his crimes DO reflect on his art. Unless you think there are two Polanskis in there. The rapist and the Great Master. And his raping a 13 year old has GOT to impact your view of his directing a scene in which John Huston’s character tells Jack Nicholson’s character that he doesn’t blame himself for raping his daughter.

If he was a good plumber and you had to admit that the rapist was a good plumber, that would be one thing - but his work dealt with morality. It makes him a world class hypocrite. Is that who you want to direct your works of art that deal with morality? A gigantic hypocrite? If so then your ability to compartmentalize is far far greater than mine. Is that really a good thing?

Who ever said that we were required to read Polanski’s work in light of his crimes?

There’s a reason nobody ever brings up Richard Wagner’s raging antisemitism when they’re talking about his operas. It’s because his personal hatred of Jews doesn’t have a goddamn thing to do with the plotting, composition, or production of his work, not even with — as is often claimed — Parsifal. Bringing it up would simply be irrelevant, and demonstrate that ideological axe-grinding is more important to you than commenting on the work itself. You can’t simply declare that Polanski’s films are all inherently tainted because they “deal with morality” (a uselessly vague claim to begin with), but he wasn’t a stand-up guy in real life. That’d be like claiming that Wagner’s operas have diminished artistic merit because they all “deal with race,” but Wagner himself was a raging racist. To be blunt, that’s a horribly simplistic and self-serving way to read art, and not one that merits any serious consideration at all.

Now, I do know some people, mostly older Jews, who refuse to listen to Wagner on principle. However, these same people universally make no bones about the fact that in terms of artistic merit alone, he deserves a very high seat in the pantheon of operatic composers. It’s not a matter of “compartmentalizing.” It’s a matter of acknowledging reality as it is, rather than as you wish it to be.

Comment #58: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  02/19  at  05:08 PM

It is not so much the emotional maturity as it is the power differential that creates the impossibility of meaningful consent inherent to the concept of statutory rape. Even the most mature fourteen year old doesn’t have the power that a celebrated and famous cinema auteur has. And again, just because it seems to be slipping away: Polanski was convicted of statutory rape as part of a deal where he pled guilty to a lesser charge. That does not change what he did. He drugged and raped a protesting child, then fled the country to avoid being sentenced.

Phoenician in a Time of Romans, I sort of get what you’re saying, but that comes off as really, really creepy. And you bring up this point a lot in rape-related threads. Why is that, do you think?

Comment #59: kaninchen  on  02/19  at  05:09 PM

When I was 14, I sat next to a girl who was pregnant (and presumably had had sex at 13 or 14) - and seemed to have her shit together about it more than some 20-somethings I could name.  Making blanket statements about *emotional* maturity leaves me uneasy.

Nothing says “has shit together” in a 14 year old like being pregnant.

Comment #60: DonnaDiva  on  02/19  at  05:10 PM

Phoenician in a Time of Romans, I sort of get what you’re saying, but that comes off as really, really creepy. And you bring up this point a lot in rape-related threads. Why is that, do you think?

Because no thread on child rape is complete without some dude interjecting to remind us all how mature some young girls are.

Comment #61: DonnaDiva  on  02/19  at  05:14 PM

Those of us who like Rock ‘N Roll in its various forms have faced the dichotomy of enjoying compelling work produced by a disturbed/drugged-out/despicable human beings for decades.

If I could only listen to rock music produced by exemplary people, I’d be listening to silence (at least for the most part).

I can admire Janis Joplin’s work, for example, without approving of the drug abuse that killed her.  The same concept goes for Michael Jackson, Jim Morrison, and Jimi Hendrix.

As other examples of this dichotomy, we admire Thomas Jefferson while decrying his ownership of slaves.  Many people admire John F. Kennedy, despite his sexual issues.

Polanski has made some great films.  He’s also a rotten human being.  I can enjoy his films and still think he needs to be in prison…

Comment #62: MikeEss  on  02/19  at  05:15 PM

“Not to mention that Chinatown was made years before the rape, so I don’t really see what your point is, at all—someone worked on a film with a subplot pertaining to rape, and then years later raped someone, so therefore…?”

Do we know this the *only* rape he committed?  Isn’t it possible that such a scene would be fairly indicative of if not Polanski’s personal view on rape than his desire to be absolved of the crime? He needn’t have written it to use it to for rape apologetics.

Comment #63: Gypsy Lee  on  02/19  at  05:16 PM

Because no thread on child rape is complete without some dude interjecting to remind us all how mature some young girls are.

Well, with my card it’s the only way I’m ever gonna get BINGO.

More seriously, I don’t think you’re wrong. I’m just wondering what his reasons are.

Comment #64: kaninchen  on  02/19  at  05:20 PM

“Polanski has made some great films.  He’s also a rotten human being.  I can enjoy his films and still think he needs to be in prison… “

It’s interesting because, for me, since finding out about Mailer’s penchant for wife-slashing, I haven’t been able to compel myself to read one of his books.  It’s not a conscious, deliberate boycott so much as a sick feeling in my stomach that I don’t want to nurture. I’m told I’m missing out. 

I hear what Amanda is saying though. Perhaps I should rethink.

Comment #65: Gypsy Lee  on  02/19  at  05:25 PM

There’s a reason nobody ever brings up Richard Wagner’s raging antisemitism when they’re talking about his operas. It’s because his personal hatred of Jews doesn’t have a goddamn thing to do with the plotting, composition, or production of his work, not even with — as is often claimed — Parsifal.


No, but I will always hate Wagner for his rape of Germanic Paganism and how the product of that rape somehow became the popular archetype for those legends.  Wagner is to real Germanic Pagan culture what 50s cowboy movies are to real Native American culture. 

I mean ... no self-respecting viking, much less Odin, would have been caught dead in one of those helmets with the stupid little wings on it.  I want to slap the **** out of him for his fashion sins alone.

Comment #66: angulimala  on  02/19  at  05:27 PM

Even the most mature fourteen year old doesn’t have the power that a celebrated and famous cinema auteur has.

This is especially stark when you read the girl’s accounts of what happened.  You’re 14, and you’re at Jack Nicholson’s house.  Roman Polanski is offering you champagne (and, I suppose, luudes), photographing you for the issue of Vogue he’s guest editing.  Suddenly you realize this is probably not where you need to be right now. 

BUT YOU’RE 14 YEARS OLD.  YOU CAN’T EVEN DRIVE.  WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO?!

Emotional maturity has nothing to do with it.

Comment #67: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  05:34 PM

Wait, make that 13.  I was getting all confused with PIATOR’s story…

Comment #68: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  05:35 PM

Isn’t it possible that such a scene would be fairly indicative of if not Polanski’s personal view on rape than his desire to be absolved of the crime? He needn’t have written it to use it to for rape apologetics.

He didn’t write it.

Comment #69: Raging Red  on  02/19  at  05:42 PM

PIATOR’s comments do have a context a bit aside from the OP that some of you might find helpful.

1
2

Comment #70: D  on  02/19  at  05:42 PM

Point of fact on the Woody Allen thing for MiddleageLiberal—Soon Yi was 21 when Mia found those nude pictures of her in Allen’s drawer. There’s no indication that he slept with her when she was underage.

Comment #71: Liz212  on  02/19  at  05:43 PM

Those of us who like Rock ‘N Roll in its various forms have faced the dichotomy of enjoying compelling work produced by a disturbed/drugged-out/despicable human beings for decades.

If I could only listen to rock music produced by exemplary people, I’d be listening to silence (at least for the most part).

Roman Polanski can’t be a scumbag because he’s a great director.
Roman Polanski can’t be a great director because he’s a scumbag.

The two statements are completely equivalent, both emotional reactions, and both as equally dumb.

Comment #72: KeithM  on  02/19  at  05:44 PM

Do we know this the *only* rape he committed?

Well, no, but it would be rather unfair to speculate that because we know he raped one woman, therefore he must have been positively in the habit of it. 

Isn’t it possible that such a scene would be fairly indicative of if not Polanski’s personal view on rape than his desire to be absolved of the crime? He needn’t have written it to use it to for rape apologetics.

Polanski didn’t write the story of the film, in any way, shape, or form.  He didn’t even collaborate on the writing of the screenplay (if what I remember is accurate - please correct me if I’m wrong).  Obviously he could have declined the job offer, or he could have actively lobbied to take that subplot out of the final film.  Though I think it’s a bit much to speculate that because he worked on a film which had a rape subplot, therefore he is a serial rapist, or whatever you’re insinuating.

Comment #73: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  05:52 PM

Ok, minor “takeback”—apparently Polanski lobbied to change the ending from a happy one, where Cross the rapist gets his and Evelyn Mulwray survives, to a sad one, where the opposite happens. 

But still.  It’s really, really hard that because he was against a nice pat happy ending for the film, therefore he is a heinous serial rapist using his creepy fetish to further his Hollywood career, or whatever is being insinuated here.

Comment #74: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  05:55 PM

He needn’t have written it to use it to for rape apologetics.

So when you watched the end of Chinatown, as Noah Cross leads his screaming daughter/granddaughter away from her mother’s body while the police stand by, helpless to do anything, your thought was, “Wow, Cross is my hero now!  Everything he did is justified!”

And, yes, that ending was Polanski’s ending, not Towne’s.  They had enormous fights over it, because Towne wanted Evelyn and Katherine to escape and live happily ever after.

I think that’s part of what drives people nuts with Polanski.  If you watch his films, he knows this stuff is bad.  He knows it’s evil and reprehensible.  And yet he did it anyway.

Comment #75: Mnemosyne  on  02/19  at  05:58 PM

Where is all the talk of CRIMINAL ALIENS that seeps in whenever certain rape apologists get wind of a fugitive from justice who isn’t a citizen wanting to visit?

Comment #76: Ms Kate  on  02/19  at  05:59 PM

“He didn’t write it.”

Which I said, and you quoted me saying.

++
“Well, no, but it would be rather unfair to speculate that because we know he raped one woman, therefore he must have been positively in the habit of it. “

IIRC, statistically, rapists don’t rape just once.  Since others on this thread referred to him as a pedophile and that the mother of his victim knew that, I can’t see how speculating that he might have done this before is unfair.

I’m not saying he did or didn’t. Who knows.  My point was that simply because this scene was before this particular rape doesn’t mean anything.  It seems entirely possible that he was using such things to ease his conscience or justify his desires or behavior. 

“Though I think it’s a bit much to speculate that because he worked on a film which had a rape subplot, therefore he is a serial rapist, or whatever you’re insinuating. “

I’m obviously failing to be clear. To put my point another way, directors have control over what is on the screen.  The craft it, they add their take on it, color it as they will.  They don’t have to have written the screenplay to use the material to further their own agenda. 

++

“So when you watched the end of Chinatown”

I was merely speculating on what Nancy might have been getting at in her original post about it way upthread.

Comment #77: Gypsy Lee  on  02/19  at  06:22 PM

My point was that simply because this scene was before this particular rape doesn’t mean anything.  It seems entirely possible that he was using such things to ease his conscience or justify his desires or behavior.

If Polanski, as you say, was trying to use scenes like that to justify his own actions, don’t you think the film should have, you know, at least tried to justify Cross’ actions instead of presenting him as an unrepentant monster?  How many people do you know who watched the film and decided that Cross was the hero so his actions were justified?

That’s where the theory falls down.  You can argue that Woody Allen was justifying his future actions when he made films like Manhattan that have him dating high school girls, but I just don’t see where Polanski is justifying or excusing rape in Chinatown or any of his other films.  Which, again, is what I think drives people nuts—he doesn’t excuse or minimize it, and yet he himself did it.

Comment #78: Mnemosyne  on  02/19  at  06:35 PM

“Which, again, is what I think drives people nuts—he doesn’t excuse or minimize it, and yet he himself did it.”

Cognitive dissonance? It’s those OTHER rapists that are monsters.  The only moral abortion is my abortion. That kind of thing?

Comment #79: Gypsy Lee  on  02/19  at  06:39 PM

To put my point another way, directors have control over what is on the screen. The craft it, they add their take on it, color it as they will. They don’t have to have written the screenplay to use the material to further their own agenda.

Wasn’t there just a post here yesterday that was all about how right-wingers routinely confuse commentary with endorsement?

I’d really like to see you explain how your assertions don’t suffer from the exact same confusion.

Comment #80: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  02/19  at  06:41 PM

“He didn’t write it.”

Which I said, and you quoted me saying.

Ah, when I read “he needn’t have written it to use it for rape apologetics,” I interpreted it as you admonishing him for writing it for the purpose of rape apologetics, not that he could still be using the film for rape apologetics even if he didn’t write it.  If that makes sense.

Comment #81: Raging Red  on  02/19  at  06:42 PM

Point of fact on the Woody Allen thing for MiddleageLiberal—Soon Yi was 21 when Mia found those nude pictures of her in Allen’s drawer. There’s no indication that he slept with her when she was underage.
Liz212

OK, I stand corrected.  But that just means he wasn’t a criminal.  He was in his mid-50’s and had been living with Mia and their own three kids (two adopted, one biological) in addition to Soon Yi since Soon Yi was about 10 years old.  As their biological son said, “He’s my father married to my sister. That makes me his son and his brother-in-law. That is such a moral transgression. I cannot see him. I cannot have a relationship with my father and be morally consistent… I lived with all these adopted children, so they are my family. To say Soon-Yi was not my sister is an insult to all adopted children.”

It took me awhile but I will watch his films and can appreciate his grasp of the human condition, in spite of his own bout with moral depravity.  I was even prepared to like “Vicki Christina Barcelona”.  I found it a pretentious attempt to be Francois Truffaut, though I don’t think I was affected by my disapproval of him as a man.

Comment #82: MiddleageLiberal  on  02/19  at  06:48 PM

The problem is that if you write off artists who are rapists, but not artists who are murderers, imperialists, sexists, racists, and other sundry sins, you’re implying rape is a special crime above all others that merits a suspension of critical thinking that other crimes do not merit.  As a woman and as a rape survivor and therefore as someone with a mega-interest in this, I refuse to do that.  I am not more sinned against than the Jews who died in the concentration camps, for instance, but to boycott Polanski and not a fascist like Ezra Pound is to suggest that rape is worse than genocide, and I’m not going to do that.

WHERE did that come from? You appear to have created a straw man - when did I ever say that rape got special consideration over other crimes?

Boycotting has become a useless political exercise because it’s not about direct action to pressure a company to change policy, but instead this weird purifying ritual some people left and right engage in to make themselves feel like they’re “doing something” without doing anything at all.  Refusing to watch Polanski’s movies does nothing to advance the cause of women.  Ironically, engaging in a critical discussion of the feminist implications of “Rosemary’s Baby” does a lot, though.

Another strawman. Who said anything about boycotting? I still watch Chinatown. But the scene with John Huston is much weirder for me now. You got a problem with that?

Comment #83: Nancy  on  02/19  at  06:49 PM

I think that’s part of what drives people nuts with Polanski.  If you watch his films, he knows this stuff is bad.  He knows it’s evil and reprehensible.  And yet he did it anyway.

And?

Using that criteria, something over half the writers and directors of the various versions of “The Twilight Zone” would fall into the same category, about three quarters of horror writers, countless novelists…

The Downer Ending isn’t either a Polanski innovation or an exclusive trope to him.

Comment #84: KeithM  on  02/19  at  06:52 PM

I’ll add that your well-meaning attempts to claim that “great director” and “rapist” must somehow be mutually exclusive categories ironically only helps rapists like Polanski get off.  All he has to do is point out that he is a great director, and therefore can’t be a rapist.  And people buy that, because they believe, as you seem to do, that rapists cannot have anything good about them.

Boy is that an example of twisted logic. I don’t even know how to begin to address this since you seem to be just pulling shit out of the thin air.

it isn’t about being a director even. It’s about being a director who deals with subjects that presumably deal with issues of ethics and justice. And he’s a little rat who wants to whitewash his crime and avoid justice.

I don’t have a taste for hypocrites telling me what’s what when it comes to ethics and justice. I thought I made that pretty clear in my prior post.

And again - you got a problem with that?

Comment #85: Nancy  on  02/19  at  06:53 PM

OK, I stand corrected.  But that just means he wasn’t a criminal.

“Criminal” has a meaning, and it’s not “people who do things I find morally reprehensible”.

Woody Allen may be a sleazy scumbag pervert, but that in itself is not a crime.

Comment #86: KeithM  on  02/19  at  06:57 PM

Cognitive dissonance? It’s those OTHER rapists that are monsters.  The only moral abortion is my abortion. That kind of thing?

I don’t think it’s that simple.  As I said, you can argue that with Woody Allen since you do have his characters getting into relationships with much younger women and being justified in doing so within the course of the film, even though it’s creepy in retrospect.

It’s more of a weird disgust/self-disgust thing with Polanski, in a way, as if he finds himself to be a monster, so he portrays the people who do the same things he does as horrible monsters.  I’m going to pull the “completely fucked-up childhood” card, not to excuse him, but because I think there’s an extra level of fucked-upedness and dissociation (not just dissonance) at play that you don’t see in very many people that comes out in his films, which makes doing a shallow reading like “he’s just justifying his own actions in Chinatown” very difficult.

I’m picturing something almost like Spike Lee.  If all you did was read Spike Lee’s interviews, you’d think he was some kind of insane racist who wants to kill whitey.  But if you actually watch his films, they’re very balanced and nuanced and he doesn’t blame or excuse anyone for the racial situation we’re in.

Same thing with Polanski.  He may say things in public to justify himself, and believe them in public, but something else comes out in the course of making the art, something a lot weirder and more complicated than simply trying to excuse his actions through art.  I can’t think of any Polanski film that excuses or minimizes or glamorizes the abuse of its female characters, but if someone can think of one that’s arguable, I’m open to it.

Comment #87: Mnemosyne  on  02/19  at  06:57 PM

Lord Byron fucked his sister, but was still a great poet.

Are you seriously comparing consensual incest with raping a 13-year old? It seems to me that you are regressing here - as if, because both incest and rape are considered “naughty” the entire issue of consent has become meaningless to you.

Comment #88: Nancy  on  02/19  at  06:59 PM

The Downer Ending isn’t either a Polanski innovation or an exclusive trope to him.

No, though he is very fond of it.  But there aren’t very many people whose downer endings consist of a girl being taken away to be raped by her father/grandfather while half of the LAPD stands by and lets him do it.

Comment #89: Mnemosyne  on  02/19  at  07:00 PM

But the scene with John Huston is much weirder for me now.

I don’t think I want to know what you thought of Huston’s character before you found out Polanski was a rapist, because it’s kind of creepy in itself that you would turn against Noah Cross only after you found out about the director’s crimes.

Comment #90: Mnemosyne  on  02/19  at  07:03 PM

“Wasn’t there just a post here yesterday that was all about how right-wingers routinely confuse commentary with endorsement?

I’d really like to see you explain how your assertions don’t suffer from the exact same confusion. “

You mean, repeat myself.  Sure, no problem.

“IIRC, statistically, rapists don’t rape just once.  Since others on this thread referred to him as a pedophile and that the mother of his victim knew that, I can’t see how speculating that he might have done this before is unfair.

I’m not saying he did or didn’t. Who knows.  My point was that simply because this scene was before this particular rape doesn’t mean anything.  It seems entirely possible that he was using such things to ease his conscience or justify his desires or behavior.”

I’ll add:  if he did, indeed, have such a reputation, it seems entirely possible . . etc.

++

“It’s more of a weird disgust/self-disgust thing with Polanski, in a way, as if he finds himself to be a monster, so he portrays the people who do the same things he does as horrible monsters.  I’m going to pull the “completely fucked-up childhood” card, not to excuse him, but because I think there’s an extra level of fucked-upedness and dissociation (not just dissonance) at play that you don’t see in very many people that comes out in his films, which makes doing a shallow reading like “he’s just justifying his own actions in Chinatown” very difficult.”

Now this is something I understand. As I mentioned earlier re: Mailer, the “ignore this, pay attention to this” thing I don’t quite grasp yet.

Comment #91: Gypsy Lee  on  02/19  at  07:04 PM

How many pre-teens have judges said were asking for it, wanted it, knew what they were getting into?  That said, i think the outcome you describe is exactly what the desired outcome is (for those seeking it).

No doubt, but it does seem like most of the reports I’ve seen of judges behaving that way have come from the UK.  Do they have different statutory rape laws than we do?  Here, if the prosecutor can prove the victim is underage and that there was sexual contact, it’s pretty much a slam dunk.  Even if the victim lied about his or her age and the defense has evidence of this, it’s still not good enough.

Not that some judges can’t make a difference with light sentencing or pushing plea deals.

 

I’m not sure I get where “the mother knew Polanski was a pedophile” thing comes from.  He’s long had a preference for much younger women (His wife is 33 years younger than he is.), but the rape is the first instance I know of where he put the moves on a minor, let alone such a young minor.

And, let me just say, I can’t even begin to guess why anyone who marry that scuzz bucket.  Ewwww.  Even if he weren’t a rapist, he’s so sleazy.  He cast himself perfectly in Chinatown.

Comment #92: keshmeshi  on  02/19  at  07:11 PM

And his raping a 13 year old has GOT to impact your view of his directing a scene in which John Huston’s character tells Jack Nicholson’s character that he doesn’t blame himself for raping his daughter.

It’s funny that you both deny Polanski any credit for producing the brilliant work of art that is Chinatown, and also blame him for having the NERVE to direct a scene written into the film by the writer you just gave all the credit to.

Not to mention that Chinatown was made years before the rape, so I don’t really see what your point is, at all—someone worked on a film with a subplot pertaining to rape, and then years later raped someone, so therefore…?

No clearly you don’t get the point and so I guess I will have to explain it all out…

I said “And his raping a 13 year old has GOT to impact your view…”

We know now what he did. He did something similar to what Noah Cross did. And like Noah Cross, does not want to face the consequences. And really, never did. He seems to have had a pretty pleasant life as a revered and productive director in France. 

Maybe that doesn’t impact your view. It sure impacts mine. Just like the fact that Jack Nicholson discovered that the woman who raised him was actually his grandmother, and that his sister was actually his mother, impacts my view of the scene where Faye Dunaway does the daughter-sister-daughter thing.

Nicholson didn’t know about it at the time the movie was made. But I know about it now. Therefore it impacts my view of the scene.

Is that really so difficult to understand?

Comment #93: Nancy  on  02/19  at  07:11 PM

I don’t think I want to know what you thought of Huston’s character before you found out Polanski was a rapist, because it’s kind of creepy in itself that you would turn against Noah Cross only after you found out about the director’s crimes.

How could you possibly reach such a conclusion? That I would turn against Noah Cross only after… what a grotesque and unjustified thing to accuse me of. Why would you think such a thing?

Comment #94: Nancy  on  02/19  at  07:14 PM

I just realized you’re clearly the same Nancy who got all hot and bothered about how Jane Eyre is The Most Feminist Novel, EVAR in that evopsych thread I killed with a thoroughly nonjudgmental passing reference to Jane Austen.

Teh lols.

Comment #95: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  07:16 PM

<blockquote.I just realized you’re clearly the same Nancy who got all hot and bothered about how Jane Eyre is The Most Feminist Novel, EVAR in that evopsych thread I killed with a thoroughly nonjudgmental passing reference to Jane Austen.

</blockquote>

And why are you bringing that up here? Other than to apparently attack me by misrepresenting what I said on a different thread? Because you’d prefer to drop this subject but can’t just let it drop without a snipe, no matter how irrelevent?

Comment #96: Nancy  on  02/19  at  07:27 PM

Nancy, I don’t think that stuff like the scene from Chinatown comes from a good place inside of us. That’s part of why we celebrate it in art—catharsis, and self-discovery.

That I’ve written misogynistic smut but never actually done those things and hold women in high regard shouldn’t make my misogynistic smut any more acceptable than Polanski’s high art.

Comment #97: humanadverb  on  02/19  at  07:35 PM

And why are you bringing that up here?

In that thread, you didn’t seem particularly able to understand that Jane Eyre can still be a good book even if it is not 100% the most perfectest feminist novel ever, and in this thread you don’t seem particularly able to understand that there may be some shard of value to some of the work created by an openly misogynist racist piece of shit (even work he created years before he was ever accused of any crime).  Chinatown is 100% bad because a rapist directed it (and/or said rapist deserves no credit for any of its redeeming qualities, and all the dishonor for any qualities that you find less than redeeming).  Jane Eyre is 100% good because apparently it was once considered slightly ahead of its time, politically.

It’s not like I mined ancient archives to unearth the time you said you liked to kill kittens - two bizarrely absolutist opinions of two politically charged pieces of art in two days.  Seems perfectly valid to comment on where I’m standing.

Comment #98: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  07:36 PM

A director, not a screenwriter is considered the author of a film, for the reason that the director is the one who realizes the thing and puts it together and is in control.  Scripts are routinely altered and rewritten heavily to realize a director’s vision, and “Chinatown” was such a script.

I think you give directors way too much credit. The reason that the last Indiana Jones movie sucked wasn’t because of the direction - it was because of the lousy script.

I’m sure not everything Polanksi has directed is pure gold.

Comment #99: Nancy  on  02/19  at  07:36 PM

Fuck.  that should be “rapist”, not “racist”.  Gah.

Comment #100: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  07:37 PM

even if it is not 100% the most perfectest feminist novel ever,

Wow, what a douchebag you are.

you don’t seem particularly able to understand that there may be some shard of value to some of the work created by an openly misogynist racist piece of shit

I don’t “seem” because you don’t get what I’m saying - you’re the one who takes everything to extremes which is apparent by the way you caricature my arguments.

Comment #101: Nancy  on  02/19  at  07:40 PM

...and “Chinatown” was such a script.

Not really.  Having read pretty substantial accounts of the production history of Chinatown, that’s probably the opposite of what I’d say about it.  The script was very much Towne’s and Evans’s baby.  The dispute over the ending caused an all-out feud between Evans and Polanski, which is pretty rare on a project where the director has iron-fisted control over the script.

Comment #102: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  07:40 PM

Nancy, I don’t think that stuff like the scene from Chinatown comes from a good place inside of us. That’s part of why we celebrate it in art—catharsis, and self-discovery.

What in holy hell is your point in saying that?

I really feel like I’ve become some kind of stand-in for whatever arguments some of you have with other people - and you just attribute anything and everything to me whether I’ve said it or not. It’s really fucking weird.

Comment #103: Nancy  on  02/19  at  07:42 PM

Nancy, I guess I just don’t understand why it matters to you so much. If I assumed something you weren’t trying to say… well, I guess that’s possible.

There’s nothing for me to say that hasn’t been covered by others. Cheers.

Comment #104: humanadverb  on  02/19  at  07:45 PM

Point of fact on the Woody Allen thing for MiddleageLiberal—Soon Yi was 21 when Mia found those nude pictures of her in Allen’s drawer. There’s no indication that he slept with her when she was underage.
Liz212

I’m pretty sure that Mia Farrow indicates in her autobiography “What Falls Away” that they first got together when Soon Yi was 17.

He also did some weird things to Dylan, when she was about 5 - he had a habit of sticking hs fingers into her mouth all the time. Farrow reported that the kid would scream for everybody to hide her when he came to visit.

Comment #105: Nancy  on  02/19  at  07:53 PM

Great movie directors can be shitty human beings, as can great athletes, artists, writers, musicians or, for that matter, plumbers.

Appreciate their work for what it’s worth, and deal with their crime (if they commit one) appropriately.

The Salon article seemed to make sense, although, since I haven’t seen the documentary (and don’t intend to), I can’t make a truly informed judgment.

Comment #106: Bitter Scribe  on  02/19  at  07:54 PM

Polanski is still trying to grand-stand his way into a dismissal on the ground that he’s just too-fucking-special for the law to apply to him.

That pretty much says it all.  He’s a rapist but he’s Roman Polanski so therefore he should be allowed to get away with it.  I wonder if he’s a Republican.

Comment #107: Tom P  on  02/19  at  07:54 PM

Nancy, I guess I just don’t understand why it matters to you so much. If I assumed something you weren’t trying to say… well, I guess that’s possible.

There’s nothing for me to say that hasn’t been covered by others. Cheers.

Why WHAT matters to me so much???

Comment #108: Nancy  on  02/19  at  07:56 PM

I wonder if he’s a Republican.

He probably isn’t. He’s probably one of those oh-so-progressive boys who feels that the overwhelming abundance of his amazing talent and the fact that he’s so into the social justice excuses his own fucked up behaviors. It’s like carbon offsets for rape.

Comment #109: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/19  at  07:58 PM

Whose accounts? Evans’s?

I’m specifically referring to the book Easy Riders, Raging Bulls by Peter Biskind, which talks a lot about the making of Chinatown and the careers of notable people who were involved with it—Evans, Polanski, Nicholson, etc. among many other Hollywood personalities of the late 60’s and early 70’s. 

Also, I work in the film industry, so you really don’t have to tell me who is responsible for what in the production of a feature film.  I’m fairly intimately acquainted with that information, seeing as the only reason I’m still at work is that I’m waiting for a director to decide what still shot he wants to insert tonight, and somebody’s got to be here to print it when he does.

Comment #110: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  08:02 PM

No, though he is very fond of it.  But there aren’t very many people whose downer endings consist of a girl being taken away to be raped by her father/grandfather while half of the LAPD stands by and lets him do it.

Nope.  That’s why it’s considered a classic (if horrific) example.  But, let’s see, we have a father killing his son, supposedly as a mercy, only to find out about two minutes later, to his utter horror, that it hadn’t been necessary.  A submarine captain who’s been to hell and back and managed to get his people home is killed, and his boat destroyed, after they dock.  A detective is psychologically destroyed when he finds his wife’s head in a box.  He loves Big Brother.  The girl who just wanted to see her brother goes out the airlock because of physics.  All Lear’s children are dead because of his own stupidity.  All the characters in a comedic series go over the top to their deaths.  They didn’t really get away from the zombies.  Or, after succeeding in her lifelong quest to find her mother, she does…and she’s a zombie that has to be shot.

There’s lots of memorable downer endings.

Comment #111: KeithM  on  02/19  at  08:02 PM

Nothing pisses me off more about the Polanski rape issue than the idiotic idea that because the rape victim has managed to go on with her life and wasn’t reduced to a shivering mass of terror in a mental institution, that somehow that means that Polanski should be pardonned.

The fact that his victim has recovered and gone on to lead a somewhat normal life in no way whatsoever affects his guilt in this matter.

He drugged and raped a 13 y/o.  He knew it was wrong, and he did it anyway.  Sure, he was in a bad place since his wife was brutally murdered, but that does not forgive or permit him to violate and victimize someone else.

He’s guilty.  He admitted it.  He fled the country.  It doesn’t matter that it was decades ago.  He fled from justice, and he does not deserve a pardon or any forgiveness for attacking a child.

He’s a rapist.  Regardless of how great any art he produces is, regardless of any regret he may have, he drugged and raped a child.

Comment #112: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/19  at  08:10 PM

Nancy:

“Wasn’t there just a post here yesterday that was all about how right-wingers routinely confuse commentary with endorsement?

I’d really like to see you explain how your assertions don’t suffer from the exact same confusion.“

You mean, repeat myself. Sure, no problem.

“IIRC, statistically, rapists don’t rape just once. Since others on this thread referred to him as a pedophile and that the mother of his victim knew that, I can’t see how speculating that he might have done this before is unfair.

I’m not saying he did or didn’t. Who knows. My point was that simply because this scene was before this particular rape doesn’t mean anything. It seems entirely possible that he was using such things to ease his conscience or justify his desires or behavior.”

I’ll add: if he did, indeed, have such a reputation, it seems entirely possible . . etc.

Right-wingers also routinely confuse verbatim repetition for argument.

Comment #113: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  02/19  at  08:17 PM

Point of fact on the Woody Allen thing for MiddleageLiberal—Soon Yi was 21 when Mia found those nude pictures of her in Allen’s drawer. There’s no indication that he slept with her when she was underage.

No, but she was and is the sister of his children with Mia.  He and Mia had a houseful of kids, and he knew Soon-Yi when she was a child and underage.

It’s very different from some guy dating an older woman and then falling in love with her daughter.  Soon-Yi is Woody’s adopted and biological children’s sister.  That’s just wrong, and it’s why he didn’t get custody of Satchel and very limited visitation.

When this came to light, I realized that the age difference between Woody and Soon-Yi was the same as between me and my stepfather.  That Woody and Mia had been together for as long as my parents had been married.  That it really was not so different from me coming home from my junior year in college and running off with my dad.

When we made the connection of ages and time in a relationship with the mother, my dad and I just about vomited.  It was a long long time before I could watch a Woody Allen movie again, and I still don’t really see the need to go to his movies anymore.  The bad taste he left in my mouth affects my ability to screen his movies objectively.

I don’t care that they have now been married for years.  Woody Allen is a fucked up individual.  I’m just grateful he’s been in therapy forever, since who knows what he might have done otherwise.  He might have to be neighbors with Polanski, had he been left to his own mixed-up desires.

Comment #114: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/19  at  08:33 PM

Gypsy Lee, you’re not missing anything. Mailer’s works are so male-centered, that his female characters barely show up. Any writer how cannot handle one half of the human race deserves no accolades. BTW, how many of the people telling you you are missing out are male?

John Updike, another man who could not handle female characters—now dead. FEH.

Comment #115: LCforevah  on  02/19  at  08:33 PM

John Updike, another man who could not handle female characters—now dead.

Oh. My. God. Thank you for this.

When I was earning my undergrad English degree, I had to read the Rabbit quad. I could not for the life of me understand why Updike was considered so good - he cannot portray a realistic female to save his life. Seriously, I’ve seen more realistic female characters in Cinemax softcorn porn.

I digress. But thank you.

Comment #116: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  08:37 PM

Um, I hardly ever comment and this is a really sensitive issue for me, so I can be inarticulate, but I really think Nancy has a point.  As far as I can tell, she is trying to say that the actions/life of an artist can, should, and DO affect the way we interpret their work.  It makes me think of the Kyle Payne case.  Dude actively speaks out against rape and counsels victims, then it comes out he’s a rapist himself.  His motivations and the perceptions we assumed him to have (which would be feminist) ought to be reexamined to get a better understanding of his crime AND the work he did.  Activism is very different from art, but I think a similar principle applies there as well. 

Nancy’s not saying all his work should be burned or that all of it sucks.  She’s just saying we have to look at the whole picture; people can be contradictory, but in most cases, those can be explained if we look between the lines.  I see it a lot like examining the history behind a work and looking at how it influences it.  Just because Roman society was patriarchal and fucked up in significant ways doesn’t mean we can’t appreciate the works Ovid or Catullus, but that DOES mean we should criticize and examine the ways they present rape in mythology. (Sorry for the nerdiness, I’m a Latin geek and had a test today.)

Comment #117: Tokidoki  on  02/19  at  08:45 PM

Here’s a thought.

Avoiding the topic of whether or not it’s okay to still keep liking Polanski’s work, is it right to keep patronizing him financially?

I don’t know if directors get royalties (probably not), so maybe I should couch this as a musician. If the situation were the same and the offender was living it up in France and enjoying his non-extraditable status, would it be right to buy his music, knowing your purchase is winding up in his pocket?

If Polanski directed another movie, or perhaps a sequel to his older movies, would it be right to patronize it?

I’d say if you must enjoy his work, then do so and don’t look back. But if you didn’t already own the stuff, get it off of YouTube or - at worst - buy it used.

What say anyone else? I’m curious.

Comment #118: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  08:52 PM

I think once you step into the rabbit hole of thinking you’re condoning everything about someone by seeing their movie/buying their album/watching their show, you should either quit watching pretty much all entertainment because you’ll inevitably be complicit in something.  You shouldn’t go to college, either, because they’re going to make you read books that were written by royalists, imperialists, and slave owners.  In purifying yourself properly, you need to cut off all contact with the world.  Because personal purity is more important than living or affecting the world.

Comment #119: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  09:00 PM

Toki, she’s staking out a critical stance that actually has no logical coherence.  We cannot consider the artist’s intentions the “true” reading of a piece, because, if nothing else, they can lie.  We don’t know what Polanski was thinking.  It’s interesting to speculate, but we’ll never know for certain.

She’s also an aesthetic Stalinist, a path I refuse to go down, because eventually no artist is morally and politically pure enough to be enjoyed.

Comment #120: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  09:03 PM

Are you seriously comparing consensual incest with raping a 13-year old?

From what I understand, Byron’s sexual relationships, including those with his sister, weren’t always so consensual.  But of course, he’s dead, so he gets a pass.  And he’s canonized. 

Are you suggesting that raping a 13-year-old is actually more of an offense than genocide?  They still teach Ezra Pound in schools. 

You standards of aesthetic Stalinism are very particular.

Comment #121: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  09:07 PM

How could you possibly reach such a conclusion? That I would turn against Noah Cross only after… what a grotesque and unjustified thing to accuse me of. Why would you think such a thing?

Because you said your view of a character who revels in the fact that he raped and impregnated his own daughter changed when you found out that the director was himself a rapist.

What about your view of Noah Cross changed when you found out Polanski was a criminal?  Did you automatically assume that your repulsion towards Cross was not Polanski’s intention and that he must have wanted you to like Cross because of his own crime?

Comment #122: Mnemosyne  on  02/19  at  09:09 PM

I think once you step into the rabbit hole of thinking you’re condoning everything about someone by seeing their movie/buying their album/watching their show, you should either quit watching pretty much all entertainment because you’ll inevitably be complicit in something.  You shouldn’t go to college, either, because they’re going to make you read books that were written by royalists, imperialists, and slave owners.  In purifying yourself properly, you need to cut off all contact with the world.  Because personal purity is more important than living or affecting the world.

If there’s a rapist living on the lam and my money subsidizes his existence, I am helping him to continue on the lam indefinitely. He’s not going to get kicked out of his comfy flat in non-extradition land as long as I’m paying his bills for him. And he’s certainly never going to accept that he’s not So-Fucking-Special when people keep subsidizing him and idolizing his work. Money talks, and it’s childish to pretend that it doesn’t.

The rest of this comment does even make sense, except in a childish “NYAH!” kind of way: Studying Thomas Jefferson in college isn’t benefiting him in any way, nor does it subsidize a rapist to stay free, possibly ensuring that he may prey on another child. So I don’t see how this has anything to do with my original question.

I’m not saying a boycott is the right thing to do, so much as I’m saying that where your money goes deserves more consideration than just “it’s complicated, so I won’t bother thinking about it, especially if I might miss out on a bitchin’ CD”.

Comment #123: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  09:14 PM

And furthermore, I call bullshit on your need to muddy the waters.

Polanski gave her quaaludes and champagne. She protested and he raped her anyway.

Ponygirl, I haven’t said word one about Polanski.  I haven’t had word one to say about Polanski.  Read.

Comment #124: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/19  at  09:24 PM

Ponygirl, I haven’t said word one about Polanski. 

Well, apart from “As Amanda has said, this isn’t a matter of statutory rape.  Presumably, he’d have also have been charged in Spain.”  Feel free to explain how that is “muddying the waters”.

(It’s not like it’s that difficult to follow - I quote the bit I’m responding to, and everything)

Comment #125: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/19  at  09:31 PM

And I caveat the above comment with respect to you Amanda - obviously there is an awful lot to consider in something like this.

I really don’t think people should stop enjoying artwork (or even NON-artwork, given the example I’m about to make) because the people involved suck ass. As you pointed out, Amanda, someone is ALWAYS going to suck ass when it comes to something as big as, say, a movie.

But I DO think that this issue deserves to be examined - not to be dismissed outright as trivial.

Comment #126: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  09:32 PM

Rape apologists, who still sadly dominate the discourse, think rape should basically be legal except for dark alleys, virgin daughters, and me.  Even though every single rape apologist claims to oppose rape, they find ways to claim that rape isn’t rape, even when the victim is 13, drugged, and pleading with you to stop as you rape her up the ass.

Who exactly are the “rape apologists” making these claims while dominating our discourse? Some names would be helpful. Thanks.

Comment #127: Amazing Larry  on  02/19  at  09:33 PM

is it right to keep patronizing him financially?

This was one of the big reasons I never really had the heart to get all excited about The Pianist back a few years ago.  The idea that some of my $10 ticket was going to keep this rapist holed up in France just really turned me off.

And, yes, directors who are members of the DGA do get royalties in certain situations.  They definitely get them for first theatrical runs of feature films.  I’m not sure about DVD, but that was at the heart of the WGA strike last year, so I doubt that directors currently do.  Quick, go snap up a copy of Chinatown or Rosemary’s Baby before they renegotiate their contract!

Comment #128: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  10:11 PM

Okay, I have to VERY BRIEFLY threadjack and seek knowledge.

1. “a father killing his son, supposedly as a mercy, only to find out about two minutes later, to his utter horror, that it hadn’t been necessary.”“______________________
A submarine captain who’s been to hell and back and managed to get his people home is killed, and his boat destroyed, after they dock.”  <u>Das Boot</u>
“A detective is psychologically destroyed when he finds his wife’s head in a box.”  <u>Se7en</u>
“He loves Big Brother.” <u>1984</u>
2. “The girl who just wanted to see her brother goes out the airlock because of physics.“____________
“All Lear’s children are dead because of his own stupidity.”  <u>Ran, (or King Lear if you want to get fussy).</u>
“All the characters in a comedic series go over the top to their deaths.” <u>Blackadder Goes Forth</u>
3. “They didn’t really get away from the zombies.” _______________________
4. Or, after succeeding in her lifelong quest to find her mother, she does…and she’s a zombie that has to be shot.” _________________________

I demand/plead/respectfully request that more knowledgeable people fill in the blanks for me.

Comment #129: seeker6079  on  02/19  at  10:14 PM

It will be seen that what the defenders of Dali are claiming is a kind of benefit of clergy. The artist is to be exempt from the moral laws that are binding on ordinary people. Just pronounce the magic word ‘Art’, and everything is O.K.: kicking little girls in the head is O.K.; even a film like L’Age d’Or is O.K.(2) It is also O.K. that Dali should batten on France for years and then scuttle off like rat as soon as France is in danger. So long as you can paint well enough to pass the test, all shall be forgiven you.

One can see how false this is if one extends it to cover ordinary crime. In an age like our own, when the artist is an altogether exceptional person, he must be allowed a certain amount of irresponsibility, just as a pregnant woman is. Still, no one would say that a pregnant woman should be allowed to commit murder, nor would anyone make such a claim for the artist, however gifted. If Shakespeare returned to the earth to-morrow, and if it were found that his favourite recreation was raping little girls in railway carriages, we should not tell him to go ahead with it on the ground that he might write another King Lear. And, after all, the worst crimes are not always the punishable ones….

From George Orwell’s “Benefit of Clergy: Some Notes on Salvador Dali”, full text found here.

Just be be clear, Orwell was not only talking about Polanski-esque situations—and how creepily accurate is that analogy-turned-prediction of “raping little girls” analogy in light of Roman The Rapist?—but also of art itself that is a moral sinkhole.

Comment #130: seeker6079  on  02/19  at  10:19 PM

And he’s certainly never going to accept that he’s not So-Fucking-Special when people keep subsidizing him and idolizing his work.

This was another reason I had a hard time getting all rah-rah about The Pianist.  In what other context would a wanted criminal be given an Oscar for his work?  Why is this OK? 

Put this in context—people are wondering right now how it is that Bernie Madoff has not been shackled in a dungeon somewhere subsisting on bread and water while he awaits trial.  And yet we respect known fugitive rapists enough to give them Academy Awards.

Comment #131: The Opoponax  on  02/19  at  10:21 PM

Just a word in defence of Nancy:
In her reference to her perception of Cross I don’t believe that she took a position that she thought it was fine until she found out that Polanksi, too, was a kiddy rapist.  If I understand her correctly, what she said is that it changed her view and perception of the scene.  Our knowledge of what the actors / directors did does impact on our view of film-making.  By way of personal example, I saw Polanski’s MacBeth, then read Helter Skelter, and it added to the horror of the knife and violence imagery the next time I saw it.  I get the impression that such is what Nancy was saying.

I take no position on the other debates between all of you.

Comment #132: seeker6079  on  02/19  at  10:23 PM

And he’s certainly never going to accept that he’s not So-Fucking-Special when people keep subsidizing him and idolizing his work.

This was another reason I had a hard time getting all rah-rah about The Pianist.  In what other context would a wanted criminal be given an Oscar for his work?  Why is this OK?

This.  And it’s not.  And it goes to Allen and Soon Yi Previn, too: there is a familial relationship of trust that should have been cherished and respected, not violated.  I think that Allen is morally a rapist in this respect, if not criminally one.

Comment #133: seeker6079  on  02/19  at  10:25 PM

“3. “They didn’t really get away from the zombies.” _______________________ “

This one’s easy:  Almost every zombie movie ever made has a twist at the end that reveals it’s not really over. 

Actually, the original B&W;, low-budget Night of the Living Dead is one of the few that doesn’t.  It has a twist (as do all proper horror flicks), but it isn’t the zombies returning…

Comment #134: MikeEss  on  02/19  at  10:31 PM

Toki, she’s staking out a critical stance that actually has no logical coherence.  We cannot consider the artist’s intentions the “true” reading of a piece, because, if nothing else, they can lie.  We don’t know what Polanski was thinking.  It’s interesting to speculate, but we’ll never know for certain.

Ah, thank you, I get where everyone is coming from now, sorry for my newbieness.  I dunno much about commenters or anything so I probably miss a lot of behavior patterns too.  I hope I didn’t imply there was a “true” reading of an artwork because christ that mindset drives me nuts.  (It’s hard to get out of the habit of assuming _everyone_ is coming from that position because most literature teachers I’ve had have been pretty tyrannical about their viewpoint being the true meaning.)  Whether it’s lying or just old-school cognitive dissonance like someone proposed who knows, but we do know both are often a huge trait most rapists and apologists need to survive, either in public or with themselves.

More what I was trying to say is that there’s no way we can know, but that speculation and skepticism of a rapist having feminist ideas can never hurt. I also like to think that pointing out hypocrisy and contradictions will help improve pretty much any work/theory/idea.

Comment #135: Tokidoki  on  02/19  at  10:40 PM

Okay, glad to clear that up.  I don’t know enough about Polanski to know if he has feminist ideas, but I doubt it.  But he did make some great movies, one of which I think lends itself to a very interesting feminist reading.

Comment #136: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  11:12 PM

To illustrate the failure of treating the artist’s personality and beliefs as the only “true” reading of a work and more important than the text itself, I offer this: Ray Bradbury claims “Fahrenheit 451” has nothing to do with censorship.  I’m not joking.

Artists are fallible human beings.  It’s a good reason to treat art as separate from the people who make it.  God knows that even I, as a petty little blogger/author, find that sometimes my writing is deeper and sharper than I, with all my failings, ever could be.

Comment #137: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/19  at  11:14 PM

“3. “They didn’t really get away from the zombies.” _______________________ ”

Descent?

Comment #138: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/19  at  11:21 PM

PiToR: Learn the definition of “muddying the waters” before you instruct me to read.

Comment #139: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/19  at  11:24 PM

1. “a father killing his son, supposedly as a mercy, only to find out about two minutes later, to his utter horror, that it hadn’t been necessary.”“______________________

The Mist would be my guess. It is the most appallingly downer ender of any movie I remember seeing, and that includes a fair amount of Japanese and Korean horror.

Comment #140: kaninchen  on  02/19  at  11:49 PM

If I understand her correctly, what she said is that it changed her view and perception of the scene.  Our knowledge of what the actors / directors did does impact on our view of film-making.

I don’t disagree with that at all.  As I said above, the relationship between Woody Allen and Mariel Hemingway in Manhattan was always creepy, but now it’s extra-super-special creepy.

I’m just confused how finding out the film’s director is a rapist changes your view of the despicable rapist at the center of Chinatown.  I guess you could argue it makes the character even creepier (though he’s pretty much presented as Satan incarnate already), but I don’t really see how your view could fundamentally change unless you either (a) didn’t think he was so bad but changed your mind after learning the truth about Polanski or (b) thought he was bad but now think that the film is endorsing his actions because the director is a rapist.  And if someone thinks that Chinatown is valorizing Noah Cross, well, that person is a fucking moron.

I would never call Polanski feminist in a million years, but he does (or at least did) have a very clear-eyed view of how much it sucks to be powerless (which usually means female) in this society.  Repulsion is a pretty good case in point:  you’re never supposed to feel anything but sympathy towards Carole even though she kills two people, and the rape sequences are about as anti-erotic as you can get.  But that doesn’t make him a feminist, just someone who can empathize with powerless victims since he was once a victim himself.

Comment #141: Mnemosyne  on  02/20  at  12:06 AM

1.  “The Mist” (recent movie version)
2.  The classic short story “The Cold Equations”.  Still causes an enormous kerfuffle when you bring it up, 50+ years after it was written.
3.  As mentioned, almost any zombie movie qualifies, but the remake of “Dawn of the Dead” is the example I’m thinking of (the end of the film makes it seem like they got away to an island…but wait until after the credits and you see they didn’t get away).  Also the two “Cavers Meet Monsters” that came out not too long ago (in one, everyone dies, in the the other, it looks like two got away, but then one discovers the monsters have infected the other one…and are now free in the world.
4.  That one, I don’t expect many people to get.  It’s the most recent Tomb Raider game.  Lara finishes the quest that’s consumed the lives of both her and her father, and has to put a bullet into the brain of her zombie mother.

Comment #142: KeithM  on  02/20  at  01:25 AM

Point of fact on me—Woody Allen is not a criminal, but is a fucked-up individual. I was not exonerating him from his quasi-incest, just from statutory rape.

My Republican father was just telling me about his experiences at jury duty. One case, that was ultimately plead out, was a guy who raped an 11 year old girl with cerebral palsy. This man’s explanation was that he had actually wanted to have sex with the hot 16 year old sister, but she’d been drinking with her boyfriend. So he had sex with the handicapped 11 year old, assuming that she would not be able to testify. Little did he know that she was intellectually perfectly normal, and could communicate via one of those little keyboards. He struck a plea deal, but still got 20 to life on 3 counts. When I think of all the men that barely get any prison time for raping girls or women, this sentence makes me a little angry. It’s perfectly appropriate, of course, but it would be perfectly appropriate for most rapists. But we need the victim to not only be underage but handicapped to get this kind of punishment. Otherwise, there’s a long line of people waiting to blame the victim. It’s horrifying. That we can’t summon that level of outrage when any woman gets violated is the crux of our problem as a culture.
Further horrifying was my father’s statement that he didn’t know people actually did things like that and then excused them in the way this defendant did. I almost said, “Well, that’s why you still vote Republican,” but that seemed too glib given the circumstances.

Comment #143: Liz212  on  02/20  at  01:28 AM

Descent didn’t have zombies (they were devolved cavemen) plus there is a sequal so it also doesn’t fit since there were surviors.

Comment #144: tootiredoftheright  on  02/20  at  01:39 AM

Thanks for the answers!

Mnemosyne @ 10:06 pm:
“Change” one’s views doesn’t necessarily mean change up or down a positive-negative scale.  It could mean additional perspective which brings additional negative emotions, like a crime scene viewed with new, disturbing and revealing evidence in hand.  I don’t speak for Nancy but I think that’s a fair reading of what she had to say. 

To watch Chinatown and be shocked by the avuncular, poisoned evil of Houston’s character is one reaction; to watch it again knowing the director who brings you the story is also an unrepentant, privileged and virtually legally immune child rapist can, I would imagine, bring an extra level of horror: what was once a story neatly constrained and contained within a film is now something which has a darkness that has come out into real life.

Comment #145: seeker6079  on  02/20  at  02:09 AM

Is the Bill Wyman who wrote the review the former Rolling Stones bassist - who was known for “consensual” relationships with teenage girls himself?

Comment #146: Dolbia  on  02/20  at  05:06 AM

Amanda:

To illustrate the failure of treating the artist’s personality and beliefs as the only “true” reading of a work and more important than the text itself, I offer this: Ray Bradbury claims “Fahrenheit 451” has nothing to do with censorship. I’m not joking.

And on the other end of the spectrum, Don McLean has for 40 years consistently refused to explain the meaning of “American Pie,” choosing instead to let everyone read into it whatever they wish.

The intentional fallacy is precisely why I brought up Wagner’s Parsifal upthread. For a good long time, it has been blithely assumed that Wagner intended Parsifal to be an antisemitic opera. Claims that it is antisemitic are common. I assume that these claims got started — in German-speaking countries, anyway — during the run-up to World War II, but I’d have to do some research to verify that. In this reading, it’s presumed that Klingsor is a stand-in for Jewishness simply because he opposes the Christian hero Parsifal, who represents the pure-blooded “Aryan” and scion of all that is good and pure. But in all of Wagner’s writings, as well as those of his wife, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that would suggest he intended any such thing. There is nothing in the libretto that openly admits to such a reading, and little that would even suggest it. The opera doesn’t appeal to the antisemitic imagery that was common late 19th Century Germany, not even subtly. There’s just nothing there.

This is the problem many, if not most, academics have with arguments that appeal to authorial intent. Not only do they distract attention from more useful scholarship, but they’re usually based on pure speculation, tenuous connections to known biographical facts, or just made up out of whole cloth. There is absolutely no difference between “Parsifal is Wagner’s paean to antisemitism” and “Chinatown is Polanski’s paean to kidde-rape.”

Comment #147: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  02/20  at  08:09 AM

“The girl who just wanted to see her brother goes out the airlock because of physics…”

I didn’t remember the title of this, but I saw it on the Sci-Fi channel more than ten years ago, and I had no idea that not only did someone else watch it, but that they remembered having seen it, too. But thanks to KeithM, I now have the reference to the origianl short story.

Comment #148: Tyro  on  02/20  at  10:17 AM

There are few articles on Pandagon in which I am in complete agreement with Amanda, but this is one of those few.

One wonders what Hollywood celebrities would do were Mr Polanski to return to the United States—whether willingly or otherwise—and be thrown in jail.  Would we see all sorts of “Free Roman” protests?

Comment #149: Dana  on  02/20  at  12:46 PM

There are few articles on Pandagon in which I am in complete agreement with Amanda, but this is one of those few.

Yes, but as is implicit in the rest of your post, this is because the target is a “Hollywood celebrity.” If it were someone else, perhaps someone who were a friend or someone whom you identified with, you might feel differently.

Implicit—and sometimes EXplicit—in a lot of these “high profile criminals” is the attitude from their defenders of, “this person is my friend. this person is successful. how can he be deserving of extreme punishment?” There’s an undercurrent of misogyny in a lot of these attitudes (because we give a pass to the rich and the powerful, who tend to be male), but, ultimately, in the ambition of some to make this out to be a peculiarity of “hollywood celebrities” it’s actually a symptom of much more ingrained problems in the public mindset.

Comment #150: Tyro  on  02/20  at  01:06 PM

It could mean additional perspective which brings additional negative emotions, like a crime scene viewed with new, disturbing and revealing evidence in hand.  I don’t speak for Nancy but I think that’s a fair reading of what she had to say.

Having attempted a rational argument with Nancy before, I’m sorry to say that may be an unwarranted assumption on your part. :(

I’ve been thinking about it more, and I think a big chunk of the Polanski problem is that dichotomous way we have of thinking about violence and abuse.  For some reason, we still have this weird idea in our heads that someone who was abused can never turn around and become an abuser themselves, no matter how many times we see abusive parents (who, 9 times out of 10, were themselves horribly abused) or abusive partners (who, again, often were themselves abused as children).**

So because Polanski makes movies where he so clearly empathizes with the victim, there’s this weird trick in our heads that makes us say, “Well, if he understands how it feels so clearly, then there’s no way he could turn around and do that to someone else.”  There’s absolutely no reason for us to think that, except to make ourselves feel better and feel like we understand our fellow human beings, because it’s been disproven time and time again.  I think the same thing may have been at play with the “feminist” guy who turned out to be a rapist:  just because he understood and empathized with rape victims didn’t mean he wouldn’t rape himself.

Finding out that Polanski actually is a rapist makes a lot of people try to squeeze him into that “rapist” box in their heads and decide that, because of his crimes, his films don’t really empathize with the victims and must secretly be siding with the abusers instead.  He must be a hypocrite if he says that abuse is bad and then abuses people himself.  They feel like they got fooled by Polanski’s empathy, and they get pissed off.  But viewing it that way is no different than deciding that women are either virgins or whores with no in-between.  People are complicated, especially when they’ve had massively fucked-up childhoods that let them rationalize horrifying behavior.

 

** Note since it often comes up:  no, I’m NOT saying that anyone who was abused as a child will inevitably become an abuser themselves.  The vast, vast majority of people don’t.  But there is a subset of people within the group of abuse victims who do become abusers and it does no good to pretend there isn’t.

Comment #151: Mnemosyne  on  02/20  at  01:15 PM

“Having attempted a rational argument with Nancy before, I’m sorry to say that may be an unwarranted assumption on your part. “

Yeah.  Like I’M qualified to talk about rational!  wink

Comment #152: seeker6079  on  02/20  at  02:18 PM

Well, Tyro, none of my friends has ever been accused of rape, so I can’t say, with absolute certainty, I’d never feel sympathy for him, because that hasn’t been tested.

However, I have written, several times, about Dr Tracy McIntosh, the University of Pennsylvania physician and medical researcher who drugged and then raped the daughter of one of his friends, and the idiotic judge who sentenced him to 11½ to 23 months of house arrest!  I hope that’s enough for you.

Comment #153: Dana  on  02/20  at  02:30 PM

Mnemosyne:

I wonder if it’s a lot simpler than that.  It seems to me that a good part of the sympathy for Mr Polanski is due to the fact that this is an old crime.  It reminds me, in a way, of the people still searching for high-ranking Nazis: even if they are found, they’re going to be in their nineties by now, so just what punishment can you give them?  Mr Polanski is now 75 years old, which, to my mind, isn’t too old to be punished, but I can see where some people would think it futile to jail him now.

Comment #154: Dana  on  02/20  at  02:44 PM

Dana, I am genuinely curious how Dr. McIntosh is regarded by his colleagues. Certainly the judge supposedly even tried using the “too important to be treated like a common criminal” excuse in light sentencing, which is similar to the dynamic at work with Polanski. Wouldn’t you say that the issues at work are similar, here?

I think another thing at work is that we like the “happy ending”—we love stories in which a person overcomes his difficult past in which he was victimized and ends up “rising above it” to be a better person. Polanski’s story shows us that there’s no redemption story in the end: the abuser becomes the abused and doesn’t even realize he’s not much better than the people who victimized him to begin with. It’s like a Greek tragedy but without the self-realization.

Comment #155: Tyro  on  02/20  at  03:00 PM

“Mr Polanski is now 75 years old, which, to my mind, isn’t too old to be punished….”

I’d agree.  It’s like the hoary old English criminal law story.  An elderly recidivist finds himself up before the bench for sentencing.  The judge, tired of seeing this fellow over and over, gives him twenty-five years.  The old lag protests: “Your Honour!  I’m 70 years old! I shall never do 25 years!”
“Well, sir,” replied the judge, “all I can ask is that you do as much of it as you can.”

Let’s hope we all live long enough to see Polanksi face this conundrum.

Does anybody know if Polanski has had charges / in absentia convictions added on for his flight? They’re usually added on in such cases, aren’t they?

Comment #156: seeker6079  on  02/20  at  03:10 PM

Tyro wrote:

Certainly the judge supposedly even tried using the “too important to be treated like a common criminal” excuse in light sentencing, which is similar to the dynamic at work with Polanski. Wouldn’t you say that the issues at work are similar, here?

Hard to say.  In Dr McIntosh’s case, there was genuine outrage at Judge Means’ ridiculously lenient sentence.  District Attorney Lynne Abraham said that to call it a slap on the writs was an injustice to those who actually got a slap on the wrist!  It seems as though Judge Means was Dr McIntosh’s only supporter.

In the Polanski case, there are a lot more supporters of letting the director off than just one, or Amanda would never have bothered to write about it. 

In a way, it’s a reversal: a lot of people want to let Mr Polanski off, while the legal system does not want to, while there was one judge who wanted to let Dr McIntosh off the hook, while he had no (public) support. 

As for how Dr McIntosh’s colleages see things, well, he has no colleagues now, at least not medical colleagues.  After the commonwealth fought the lenient sentence, Dr McIntosh was sentenced to 3½ to 7 years in the penitentiary, just last February.  The earliest he can get out of the pen is late 2011.

Comment #157: Dana  on  02/20  at  04:34 PM

Mr Polanski is now 75 years old, which, to my mind, isn’t too old to be punished, but I can see where some people would think it futile to jail him now.

I think it’s something even simpler that Amanda has written about before.  You have a lot of people who’ve worked with Polanski and because they “know” him, they think there’s no possible way he could have committed a crime.  Look how nice he is!  Look how much he loves his children!  Clearly, he’s a good person, so the girl who accused him of rape must be lying or at least exaggerating.

It’s something that happens time and time again:  people are unwilling to believe that people they know are capable of terrible crimes.  That’s why you have people who defend their neighbors who turn out to be serial killers or concentration camp guards.  They don’t want to believe that they’re actually bad judges of character who only looked at the externals and not the hints along the way that there was something wrong.

I am curious to find out how many women (especially actresses) who’ve worked with Polanski are cutting him these breaks.  It’s almost always men making the excuses for him.

Comment #158: Mnemosyne  on  02/20  at  05:47 PM

You know, weirdly, up until this point I had been what you might call “grudgingly sympathetic” to Polanski, but mostly I blame that on not really giving it much thought, and I feel pretty stupid and ashamed for that. The only difference between Polanski and, say, a DeBeers executive is that the suffering Polanski created was at his own hands, not a hired thug.

Drag his ass back to the US and don’t let him anywhere nearer to a camera than a prison-owned Hi8.

Comment #159: BrianX  on  02/20  at  09:40 PM

Amanda, re Fahrenheit 451:

IIRC Bradbury’s position on it was a bit more nuanced than that. It wasn’t about government censorship but censorship by mob rule—at least as Beatty framed it, the bookburning was a function of a closed-minded, apathetic public deciding that it was better to eliminate any book that caused strife, which to all intents and purposes meant any literature that wasn’t an owner’s manual or light entertainment (like a porn mag or Mrs. Montag’s TV script). In a way, then, the larger point is about the dangers of incuriosity and the assumption that if I don’t need to know something, no one else needs to either.

To the extent that Bradbury is right about this, however, he definitely seems to have forgotten that such a lesson applies as much to censorship by authority as it does to censorship by the masses; he very well might be missing his own point, in other words.

Comment #160: BrianX  on  02/20  at  09:48 PM

That’s why you have people who defend their neighbors who turn out to be serial killers or concentration camp guards.  They don’t want to believe that they’re actually bad judges of character who only looked at the externals and not the hints along the way that there was something wrong.

There’s a problem with that statement: those neighbours need not have been bad judges of character at all.

The serial killers, I’ll give you, but the thing about the concentration camp guards is simple the Stanford Prison Experiment made all too real.  Sure there were genuine monsters, but in other cases they were otherwise normal people who, had not the context they were in allowed them to become monsters, would be and later were when their context changed utterly indistinguishable from the people around them.

One of the things that comes through clearly over the years since the war is that a lot of those guards and SS and Nazis who were later found out lived completely normal, mundane lives.  They weren’t, as countless TV shows and movies portray, secretly conspiring to found a Fourth Reich, the vast majority weren’t engaged in any kind of criminal activity.  They were simply ordinary men (for the most part, obviously) who went to work every day, kissed their children good night, went out with the wife to the odd movie…utterly indistinguishable from anyone around them.  Had they not been in the right place at the right time, that would have been the entirety of their lives.

And that goes up the ladder right to the very top.  Himmler would have been a chicken farmer with crank beliefs, Goering an ebullient war veteran and flying ace toasting old victories, Heydrich a showy lady’s man spending his life constantly in trouble for the wives and daughters of other men left in his wake, Eichmann a detail-minded functionary in some business.  Had Eichmann emigrated to the US or Canada in the 1920s, the Architect of the Holocaust would likely not have stood out at all from any other German immigrant.

Sure there are monsters right from the start, and sometimes the monsters seek out the opportunity to indulge their appetites, but sometimes the monster is a creation of opportunity and circumstance.

Comment #161: KeithM  on  02/21  at  01:09 AM
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