http://youtu.be/G3JzD9wAKhE is another good song about marriage. I’ve listened to it many times, but am still not sure just how serious he’s being, if at all. It’s not as cynical as this one http://youtu.be/DMwUCmuND8Q , at least not as cynical in tone.

I think a lot of the difference in gay and lesbian rates is that there’s a much greater likelihood that the lesbians have children and would like to share those health and other benefits that are so important when raising small people. The simple addition of children to the equation would probably account for a great deal of that disparity.

I emailed you a while back about turntable.fm, not sure if you got it or just thought it spam but I think you would love it if you don’t know about it.  You basically set up a room set up a playlist and be a DJ over the internet.

I think 3letterjon may be right. There are also issues of discrimination against women (and lesbians in particular) that may render marriage more immediately attractive (inclusion of partners for benefits, inheritance of property and lease rights, blah blah blah).

Tough to say.  States where it’s legal, with the exception of Iowa, tend to be less sexist and less homophobic in general, and so the economic woes of lesbians are not nearly like they are in other places.  Children is an interesting point, though.  Even to this day, a lesbian raising a child is statistically likely to have had that child during a prior relationship with a man, which means marriage is the best way to secure some legal relationship between her partner and her child.

Tough to say.  States where it’s legal, with the exception of Iowa, tend to be less sexist and less homophobic in general, and so the economic woes of lesbians are not nearly like they are in other places.  Children is an interesting point, though.  Even to this day, a lesbian raising a child is statistically likely to have had that child during a prior relationship with a man, which means marriage is the best way to secure some legal relationship between her partner and her child.

Women are socialized to be caregivers in a way men aren’t, and so by marrying one, you get cared for more.

Yes.

Things that my husband doesn’t really have to think about because I’ve taken them up: Laundry, menu planning, grocery shopping, bathroom cleaning, budgeting, lawn care, kitchen cleaning, dishes. And general awareness and tracking of what needs to be done around the house: he’ll do things if I ask him, but I have to ask him or remind him. (This isn’t new since we got legally married; it has been an issue since we moved in together.)

I could finish my Ph.D a hell of a lot faster if I had someone taking care of all of these things for me so they didn’t even have to be on my radar screen.

Another thought on what 3letterjon said: Women’s caretaker socialization might lead many lesbian couples to care more about the legal protections of marriage—they let you take care of your partner more efficiently.

I think that even in less sexist states, there is probably a great attraction to marriage for women because of sexism itself. Even less sexist states see women making less on average than men, and pension/social security bennies etc are more important to have if you wouldn’t be able to get by on your own. Women are also trained to be the caretakers of the family, so they’re going to think more about stuff like enduring power of attorney in the event of sickness or an accident.

People who are mushy-middle about gay marriage need to have the legal ramifications of marriage clearly spelled out to them with absolutely no punches pulled in suggesting that there but for the grace of god goes their own marriage.

I like to read the post first and then the update, and sometimes it’s hard to tell when one ends and the other begins. Could you put updates at the bottom, or in a blockquote box?

I do want to caution about one thing—I don’t know that women filing for divorce more means women are more desiring of divorce.  I have tended to chafe against that argument when MRAs make it to say how eeevil we womenfolk are.  I think that in a lot of marriages, the wife is the paperwork person, she does the taxes, pays the bills, etc.  Someone has to file, and just because she files doesn’t mean they didn’t mutually decide to divorce.

Once you count bisexuals, the amount of queer women is not that much less than the amount of queer men.

This data is from a 2002 study from the National Center for Health Statistics.

Men:                            Women:
gay - 2.3%                      lesbian - 1.3%
bi - 1.8%                        bi - 2.8%
“something else - 3.9%          “something else” - 3.8%

When you put in bisexuals and “something else,” it almost evens out.

This doesn’t really explain why lesbians get married more than gays. I just get annoyed when people forget that there are many bisexuals that gays and lesbians might also be marrying.

Another factor that may have some relevance is if the same-sex marriage is the first one or not. Stats from British Columbia, in the first few years after same-sex marriage was legalized (and most of the people getting married were Americans) showed that roughly 55% of the of the marriages were between women and 45% between men, but nearly 28% of the women had previously been in a (hetero) marriage and only 14% of the men.

I sorta disagree, Ismone. Although I agree with you that men can be diffident about the paperwork end of things, in some cases only needing a divorce when they want to remarry. Where I disagree is in the case of men adulterers, I often get the impression that the fellas just don’t seeing the point of leaving a wife they’re cheating on. Why not have both wife and mistress?  That kind of thing is often a deal-breaker for the wives (they’re the ones that suffer the social humiliation, after all),so they’re the ones that file for divorce.

I was happy to see Nona link to “I Want a Wife.” It’s really the definitive piece on the phenomenon.

But how does the actual happiness within a marriage affect wanting to get married prior to that? Surely if that theory was correct hetero men would be far more eager to get married than hetero women, and generally speaking the reverse seems to be true. Perhaps it’s just that lesbians, along with straight women, are socialized into wanting to marry and settle down far more then men are.

I rediscovered this song a few months back.  I first heard it when I was about 10 years old and it influenced my decision to avoid getting married. 

Carly Simon, That’s the way I’ve always heard it should be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux7HgO9QhAc

@13 In my experience hetero men seem more eager than hetero women to get married.  Almost every man I’ve been involved with has proposed or broached the subject whereas I have never been interested.  And I’m not all that great a catch.  I see the same phenomenon among my friends. 

But I think you’re right about the socialized part.  Anecdata again:  Straight women who aren’t in relationships tell me they want a husband.  When there’s a man actually present, they seem more ambivalent.

Unree, if you don’t see yourself as that great a catch, then you’re more likely to be dating a guy whom doesn’t see himself as that great a catch; such guys are more likely to propose out of a fear of being alone later in life, compatibility be damned.

You may be right on your overall point, but even if the plural of anecdote was data, that’s not a very good anecdote.

Okay @16, I’ll bite: do you observe women in hetero couples wanting marriage more than their male partners?  That’s the stereotype but it’s not consistent with what I’ve seen.

I’ll take back the not-great-catch comment because it’s not verifiable.  Maybe I am a great catch, who knows.  I was trying to forestall “Unree’s boasting about what a hot irresistable wifetype she is” and fell into another pit.

Anyone care to guess which of the 57 counties in California has the highest rate of gay parenting?

The answer will surprise you.

Yet this county known for its dairy farms is home to the self-described “lesbian Brady Bunch” - Kristin Beasley, Candi Hood and the six children they had with husbands before they realized they were in love four years ago.

Perhaps it’s just that lesbians, along with straight women, are socialized into wanting to marry and settle down far more then men are.

Joke told me by a lesbian friend 20 some years ago: you know what lesbians drive on the second date? A moving van.

(I make no statement on whether or not it is true: she found it hysterical.)

Searching for an apartment a few years ago, I once came across an ad from a heterosexual single mother seeking what she described as a platonic wife. I think the ad was based on the Brady essay but rewritten as a fairly equitable list of responsibilities that would be shared and benefits she and said wife would get for the arrangement. She wanted somebody with whom to share housekeeping and child-care duties in exchange for free room and board. Basically a more involved form of roommate. It seemed like a pretty decent idea to me that more hetero women should sign on for.

@19 KeithM - Last Pride Parade I attended in SF, U-Haul had an ad campaign based on that joke.

(Not) Getting Married Today -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrRDrz53Q1E

and

Marry Me a Little -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrfk8weTWTM

Sondheim found marriage to be a rich source of humour and drama.

Don’t we get to help with the playlist? 

White Wedding—Billy Idol
Wouldn’t It Be Nice—The Beach Boys
Les Trois Cloches (English version, Three Bells)—The Browns (English version)
Chapel of Love—The Dixie Cups
Wedding Bell Blues—The Fifth Dimension
I’m Getting Married in the Morning—Cast and Chorus, My Fair Lady
I Wanna Get Married—Nellie McKay
The Rain, The Park, and Other Things—The [motherfucking] Cowsills
Ballad of John and Yoko—The Beatles

Apparently, lots more divorce and breakup songs.  I wonder why that is.

Dixie Chicks had one about being ready to run when/if asked to marry.

The other thing that gets me, is that male couples tend to have like more than twice the income of lesbian couples.  It’s crazy.  It’s very common for a lesbian woman to have a nonworking spouse at the same time as making half the average gay man.

Maybe the fact that unemployment is such a downer for men (another socialized thing) might lead to less gay marriages than lesbian ones…

I think there might be some demographic differences between the younger gays and lesbians and the older ones. Older lesbian couples are much more likely to have children, while younger lesbian couples may have been out since high school and have always had marriage to another woman as a potential possibility. Older gay men may not even be out at work, so there may be reasons not to make public announcements about their sexuality as those higher-paying jobs Crissa alludes to in #25 might also be contingent on being straight at the office. Many of those men might be entangled in a marriage of convenience to a lesbian already (I know of a few couples of that sort.) Younger gay men? I imagine they are closer to younger lesbians in outlook, but I wouldn’t really know. Most of my anecdotes deal with people like my mom (lesbian with an ex-husband and some children) and my lesbian friends (who have grown up on independent-minded lesbian cultural models and like the idea of marriage equality even though they haven’t seriously considered it that much*.)

*it’s Arizona, we’ll have gay marriage before any of the Confederacy, but not that much before.

I do want to caution about one thing—I don’t know that women filing for divorce more means women are more desiring of divorce.  I have tended to chafe against that argument when MRAs make it to say how eeevil we womenfolk are. 

If men filed for divorce more often than women, MRAs would use that as evidence that women are evil and men want to get away from them. Interpreting evidence differently doesn’t work on people who have a predetermined conclusion.

You may be right on your overall point, but even if the plural of anecdote was data, that’s not a very good anecdote.

The point being argued was whether men want to get married more than women for whatever reason, not whether the reason is the awesomeness of their partner or their fear of being alone. Maybe women would rather be alone than married to someone who is statistically likely to take more than he gives to a marriage, and men feel the opposite. That has nothing to do with the attractiveness or lack thereof of either partner.

I think it is important to check the age group of gay men and women getting married.

It could simply be that marriage is most attractive to long-term couples, long-term couples are in older age groups by definition, and AIDS wiped out a whole lot of gay men in that “marrying” age group.

It may simply be that we had a generation of gay men who would be marrying their long-term partners now ... except they died twenty years ago.