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Next entry: The naturalistic fallacy isn’t health care Previous entry: Breaking Bad season finale

NBC, please stop ruining funny shows. Kthnxbai.

Spoiler babies: If you're not all caught up on all shows on NBC, just skip this one. 

The excitement over Breaking Bad last night was sadly undermined by the fear that we'll soon be having to put Parks and Recreation to bed. I was thrilled when the show was renewed--- from what I understand, it was touch and go there for a bit---but now I'm beginning to think that they had to sell out big time to get that renewal, and it may become unwatchable. Thursday night's episode, which we watched on DVR last night, felt like a big time shark jump, the moment when the writers gave in and stopped making a show for smart people who are quick to get a joke, and started to make the show for people who don't get a joke unless you explain it to them. 

Example #1: the joke at the top of the show, which you see in the first part of the full episode here. I was excited that they were going to send up NPR and just general quiet, pretentious public radio, and they did do that with the joke about "Nefirtiti's Fjord". Old P&R would have simply had her read the bit about the lesbian funk-Afro etc. band and played the music and gone out, trusting that the audience gets why that's funny. New P&R has the characters explain the joke to you with Leslie complaining that the music sucks and the DJ explaining that "lesbian" trumps "quality". Which in turn makes the joke kind of offensive, instead just a funny poke at public radio for the overall pretentiousness of their music, instead of zeroing in on the "lesbian" thing. 

Example #2: After Ann finally gets Ron and April's attention with a gross medical story, Ron calls her by another name to put her in her place. Not that funny a joke, but at least a joke. But then they cut to him explaining what he did, in case you didn't get it. Here's an idea: instead of riding every joke into the ground for fear that one will get by the slower people in the audience, why don't you just keep making jokes, figuring some have to hit? That's what you used to do!

Example #3: I think we get why the birth certificate nonsense was stupid, and the people of Pawnee are stupid to care. There was a recent event in our history that would be a helpful reminder, in case we didn't get that. So why do you keep explaining it, over and over again?

There are more examples---I counted at least 7, and that was after I started counting, so there were probably more---but it's too depressing to watch it again and count them up. Plus, I have other complaints!

Complaint #1: Bad characterization. For no real reason, they've made Chris stupid and Ann even more so.  The whole subplot with Ann trying to get Ron and April to talk to her is the dumbest thing they've ever done with Ann, and Ann is by far the weakest character on the show, story-wise, of any of them. Ann used to be there as a bit of a no-nonsense character who was baffled by the red tape and politics of city government. Now Ann....gives a shit if two people she doesn't even like that much make small talk with her? We have had zero indications to date that Ann is a person with a perverse love of small talk, nor do we have any reason to think she's an attention whore. I think this is an attempt to get Rashida Jones onscreen more, which I can appreciate because she's cute and funny, but if you don't have anything good for her to do, don't just make up out-of-character weirdness that has no relationship to human behavior.  

Also, old Leslie would have asked her mom about her birth first.

Complaint #2: Sentimentality. Old P&R had a healthy sense of humor about Leslie's attachment to the shithole they call Pawnee. One of the best running jokes on the show is how the ungrateful citizens of Pawnee ruin every public meeting by being irrelevant and cranky. Leslie's sense of scale is supposed to be out of wack, even if other parts of her personality are admirable. But now she's giving impassioned speeches about why she loves Pawnee, and instead of it being a joke, we're supposed to get sentimental with her about her fictional town that has been routinely portrayed as Backwardsville, USA? No, thank you. This is especially fucked up in light of the birth certificate storyline---since it was a reference to the President's situation, there's an unpleasant whiff of suggesting that the racist screeching about the birth certificate should be written off as relatively harmless eccentricity instead of a toxin that's eroding our political discourse. That's unforgivable in a show that usually has a swift grasp of the realities of politics.

These are my complaints, and I'm only issuing them because the only thing that's made me laugh all season was the torturing-Ann-with-penises joke. That said, I don't blame the writers fully for this downward dive that P&R has taken. I blame NBC. Towards the end of the show, I turned to Marc and said, "I'll bet this dumbing down wasn't the writers' idea. I just can't imagine you get so stupid so fast. I'll bet NBC had a come-to-Jesus meeting where they were told that either they make the show much stupider and less harsh towards the assholes in our society to reel in a larger audience, or they will be canceled." I'm a firm believer in the mediocrity principle, and I think that Hollywood executives have turned making mediocre but popular shit into an art. And they're not wrong! Shows that are sharp in their critiques of American society will be turned off by people who cherish the unjust status quo, as well as people who get uneasy about "mean" humor, which probably kills off more of an audience than a network show can afford to lose. Shows that assume an audience that's paying attention and is smart enough to get rapid-fire humor also lose a huge audience chunk, which is why 30 Rock can't pull it out in the ratings no matter how many Emmys they get. (And the only time they surged in ratings was their worst, stupidest season, season 3.) I get why networks see sharp, pointed humor and want to reel it in. So that was my theory of what's happening to P&R

And then, right after I floated this theory, I got a confirmation from the universe, in the form of the writers of Community. See, we had only caught up to the end of season two last week, so we watched the season premiere of season three right after the latest episode of P&R. I had heard in the rumor mills of the internet that Community is also hanging by a thread, under threat to tone down the weirdness by NBC, with cancellation looming. I worried that they, too, would rob the show of everything odd about it I love in order to appeal to people who don't like sharp humor and prefer predictability in their sitcoms. But instead I got this:

If that's not a "fuck you" to NBC executives telling them to tone it down, I don't know what is. This confirmed all my suspicions that the showrunners and writers are getting immense pressure to produce more generic, sentimental, unfunny crap that has a mass appeal. It's a shame to see P&R give in to that pressure, but I suppose predictable, since The Office went there years ago. Let's just hope 30 Rock keeps riding their Emmys off into fuck-you land, because for some reason they've managed to come back to the humor that made them so great in the first place without getting cancelled. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:23 AM • (59) Comments

Speaking of Community, anyone else annoyed by Brita getting stupider and stupider?  She used to have lines that weren’t about being a parody of a liberal.

Comment #1: Gavel Down  on  10/10  at  09:33 AM

I haven’t watched “Community” much—or really, much of anything else—‘cause I quit cable several years ago. But I watched the D&D episode online a while back and loved it. And that trailer is pretty amazingly genius.

Of course that means it’s doomed. NBC will take that as a personal insult.

Comment #2: Scott  on  10/10  at  09:43 AM

Overall it’s insanely good.  MORE ABED.

Comment #3: Gavel Down  on  10/10  at  09:45 AM

I’m glad you wrote this post.  I’m kind of picky about the type of sitcoms I like.  I liked Community since the very beginning.  I don’t really know why, but I just loved it right away.  So the first season I would watch it, followed by P&R that I also liked.  When they changed the time slot, I didn’t follow it because most other shows I watch are an hour long.  I don’t like 30 Rock because I can’t really stand any of the Baldwins, and I missed out on the beginning of the Office and didn’t want to jump in near the end, so I never watched those.  So I stuck with Community, did something else from 8:30-9, and sadly gave up on P&R.  I was thrilled to find it back in this time slot for this season.  I found it less funny than I used to, and I figured something major happened during the season that I missed it. 

But I have to completely agree with you about Ann.  I don’t like this change at all.  I also don’t like the way April is changing.  Maybe I completely misread it, but I thought her character was completely apathetic and antisocial and hated every minute of being around all those other people, and that’s what made her unique.  Now she’s just another run-of-the-mill office worker.

Comment #4: bananacat  on  10/10  at  09:50 AM

I am a HUGE Parks & Rec fan who bows down in gratitude to you for this post.  I too noticed that last week’s ep felt “off,” yet failed to nail down exactly what was wrong about it.  Thanks for being sharper than me.

I agree that the Community song & dance bit was fucking brilliant, but sadly, the quality of last week’s episode was down, too.  I love Chang, but the Arizona Match Company biz was just not funny.  Bring back Troy & Abed in the morning!

Comment #5: Radicalhw  on  10/10  at  09:55 AM

Now that they mock her for being lefter than thou, I love Britta. The left isn’t above teasing. Plus, her friends who actually got tortured aren’t being mocked.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/10  at  10:11 AM

I’ve felt that both Community and P&R are running on steroids or something this season: the performances and jokes have run much harder at punch lines than I remember from earlier seasons, and in both shows the characters seem to be acting a little differently from their previously established personalities, for better and worse. It doesn’t really hurt Community, which is still aggressively weird and never really inhabited a naturalistic universe to begin with. But the difference in tone on P&R is jarring. In earlier seasons, they didn’t underline and put quite as many exclamation marks over the absurdities of Pawnee’s universe. Now it’s way over the top. I’m not quite ready to quit watching yet, I’m still laughing, but yeah, it’s definitely kind of strange this season.

Comment #7: Dr. Locrian  on  10/10  at  10:26 AM

I read something about Community & P&R being in danger too.  It showed the raw numbers in comparison to what shows like 2-&-1/2 Men pull.  Considering what pricks network execs are, I am legit shocked that either show (or The Office, for that matter), made it past season one.

P&R is going down, and the only way to save it is for it to get cancelled & then picked up on cable.  That way they can actually run free and get creative freedom.

Comment #8: bouj  on  10/10  at  10:35 AM

Agree that P&R has felt a bit off.  It was totally baffling to see Poehler over-act her way through the first two episodes after managing the character with such a steady hand for seasons two and three.  I hadn’t considered that maybe NBC was leaning on them to broaden the appeal, but that idea really strikes a chord.

See also:  turning Ben into Jim Halpert, dispenser of smug looks to camera and I’m-superior-for-no-reason-at-all jokes at other characters’ expense.  See also:  leaning too heavily on previously established jokes/minor characters instead of expanding the universe (Burt Macklin, FBI is really funny, but not when he gets brought up every chance the writers get).  See also:  Tom making the exact same entrance in each episode, declaring his swag, wearing something too-ridiculous and handing out 720 merch… and never explaining why he’s still hanging around the Parks department (except in the one case to solicit Ben for financial help).

I thought the change in the treatment of Leslie’s relationship to the town (moving it from totally delusional to kind of understandable if a bit silly) helped the show through seasons 2-3, if only because the show became about the idea that it’s okay to believe in things unironically.  The show came out in favour of sincerity, or something, and even characters’ silly ambitions and Leslie’s over-the-top enthusiasm was infectious (and still funny) rather than grounds for ridicule.  And for a while that was working (and kind of refreshing) because they still mostly stayed away from the weird sentimentality of this season, which is kind of a hard line to walk.  Immensely good natured but not saccharine.  But now things seem all out of whack. 

Mike Schur has said in multiple places that this season will be really “juicy,” and I think that probably bodes poorly.

Comment #9: inthepost  on  10/10  at  10:40 AM

Community has been on something of a slide.  I think the last episode was one of the worst episodes I’ve seen to date.  The focus on Chang going crazy was cheap and lacked the kind of genre appeal detective gimmick I was hoping they’d play with - frankly, I think Chang’s whole character was always incredibly weak, but this was far worse than the Brita/Chang Protester/Police faux-romance from last episode.  And the whole “This group is made out of horrible heartless insular assholes” story that covers the main group was… lackluster.  It feels like they made an off-handed shout out to each character’s stereotype and then just kinda phoned in the rest.

Comment #10: Zifnab  on  10/10  at  11:06 AM

The addition of Whitney to the lineup has me a little worried.

Comment #11: SweetT  on  10/10  at  11:24 AM

Your comments are as always insightful, and I agree the show has seemed different this season. However: “Is she going to powder her vagina?” has had me laughing throughout the weekend. Maybe I just like Adam Scott more than is healthy.

Comment #12: thejcar  on  10/10  at  11:29 AM

Now that they mock her for being lefter than thou, I love Britta. The left isn’t above teasing. Plus, her friends who actually got tortured aren’t being mocked.

Yeah, I love this vein of Britta humor. If anything, reading lefty political blogs should help. We know that person, or at least have read her comments. The show does a pretty good job of being loving, but amusingly harsh toward all the characters.

So, I picked a bad season to start watching Parks and Rec, huh? I’ve been pretty underwhelmed, but I thought I needed to get to know the characters a bit, since it’s obviously that kind of show, to get the hilariousness.

Comment #13: witless chum  on  10/10  at  11:45 AM

I don’t know about this. Shows have off episodes all the time.  I’m not ready to write off P&R yet.

I don’t really have any sympathy for either P&R or Community for the network pressure they are almost certainly receiving from NBC.  That’s the price you pay for making a show on a broadcast network in exchange for a much larger budget and financial upside in the event that you make a hit. NBC is right to be concerned because both shows get terrible ratings.  If they want more creative freedom they should work on cable.  There’s a reason all the good drama, and much of the good comedy, is made for cable.

I still think both will probably get at least one more season after the current one, due to how bad of shape NBC is in and syndication concerns.

Comment #14: dead souls  on  10/10  at  11:49 AM

I’m worried about Community too, creatively.  Most of my biggest laughs from the show have come from the tension between the members of the study group, and I think it’s a great opportunity to have them both come together to take on a common enemy (a class they’ll actually have to work to pass) and splinter from the tensions that produces.  They may still go that way, but I’m finding fewer reasons to like them each as a person, except for Britta who is becoming much more of one. 

The difference is that the group should be bigger than the sum of it’s parts, but not so much this season.  I mean I can like Jeff and simultaneously think he’s a huge jerk, or Pierce, but I’m getting less of the warm fuzzies when my tv friends appear onscreen because they are taking each other for granted, which makes me feel like they are taking my show loyalty for granted too.  It’s a bit lazy and less ha-ha funny.

Comment #15: Skipjack  on  10/10  at  11:53 AM

I’m sorry, but the US version of The Office always sucked, being a cheap rip off of a sharp Brit show that just couldn’t quite catch up.

Comment #16: helen w. h.  on  10/10  at  12:04 PM

I dunno. I feel that since the beginning, you always had to watch Parks in a generous spirit: forgiving them the many clunkers, the many set-ups that just aren’t that funny, the many clumsy plot and character developments, the many talking-to-camera bits that don’t go anywhere, all while waiting to get to the parts that are actually funny. You sustain yourself with a memory of the funny parts and an affection for some of the actors.

You have to do that with all sitcoms, but I’ve always felt that was way, way more true of Parks than of other highly regarded shows. My theory has been that the Parks writers at their peak are simply less good than those of the Office or Community at their peaks. So I’m not surprised by the downward spiral.

Comment #17: JasonB  on  10/10  at  12:11 PM

I just don’t relate to TV as the characters being my “TV friends”, so if they are absolute and complete assholes, that can be just as entertaining to me. I prefer it far more than ham-fisted sentimentality. My least favorite parts of “Community” are when they expect us to root for their unlikely friendships.Whne the group is characterized as a big bout of codependence, I like it way more. For instance, the attachement to Pierce is straight up unhealthy; when the show admits that, it’s better because it’s more honest.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/10  at  12:19 PM

As a thought experiment, let’s try to think like a television executive.  You have a job, and that is to sell advertising.  You want to maximize the profit from that advertising.  How do you do it?  Do you go for the largest number of viewers?  That’s the common approach, but is that the best approach?  You end up getting the same set of eyeballs as everyone else.  Do you attempt to go for a secondary market, so you get a unique set of viewers, with the thought that the advertising potential is greater?

Obviously, you try for some form of mix…  But once you get that success in a secondary market, what do you do?  The costs of production are going to increase, as you will need to pay more to produce the shows that draw the secondary market.  At some point, those costs may become too great—even though the show remains popular with its core audience, the advertising revenue may not pay for the production costs.  So, you need to expand the market, somehow.

So, thinking generally, once you have a successful show that appeals to a secondary market, how do you keep it successful?

Comment #19: James  on  10/10  at  12:23 PM

Jason, I have no interest in a generous spirit with TV. I treat my friends and family with a generous spirit, because they do that in return for me. But TV is a business; I can demand a better quality product and be critical of what’s on offer. Plus, a lot of shows are mediocre because that’s perceived as more lucrative. If people actually start demanding better TV, we create economic incentives to create it.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/10  at  12:26 PM

Wow, James, I’m sure none of the rest of us have thought about TV shows as a way to sell things.  We just whine about how they aren’t perfect for us!  Thanks for explaining that it’s a business!
</sarcasm>

I never liked Community.  I tried the first episode and what boded poorly for me was Chevy Chase as the elder statesman.  He gets to say racist things so we can laugh but it’s funny because it’s a character, amirite.  Ugh.  I couldn’t get past that.  I guess maybe I just have too many of those modern day Archie Bunker types around me already.

Comment #21: oldfeminist  on  10/10  at  12:39 PM

I’m sorry, but the US version of The Office always sucked, being a cheap rip off of a sharp Brit show that just couldn’t quite catch up.

Plus, British accents automatically make everything smarter and more interesting, amirite?

We just whine about how they aren’t perfect for us!  Thanks for explaining that it’s a business!

Now that’s unfair. All this time I was convinced that television executives were just wealthy art patrons.

Comment #22: junk science  on  10/10  at  12:50 PM

Full agreement from me on that score, Amanda. However, except maybe for Gervais’s shows, which have short runs, I’ve never seen a sitcom that didn’t have some clunker episodes, and some clunker parts of good episodes. I just meant you gotta roll with the bad stuff or you’ll never get attached to any show.

I’ve reached my tipping point with Parks, though. Too much crap.

Comment #23: JasonB  on  10/10  at  12:51 PM

Now that they mock her for being lefter than thou, I love Britta.

Now that she’s a cheap one-note stock character, dimwitted but hot and almost supernaturally naive, instead of an intelligent feminist?

You would.

Comment #24: Gavel Down  on  10/10  at  12:52 PM

As a thought experiment, let’s try to think like a television executive.  You have a job, and that is to sell advertising.  You want to maximize the profit from that advertising.  How do you do it?  Do you go for the largest number of viewers?  That’s the common approach, but is that the best approach?  You end up getting the same set of eyeballs as everyone else.  Do you attempt to go for a secondary market, so you get a unique set of viewers, with the thought that the advertising potential is greater?

As a thought experiment, let’s all try to think like Hitler…

Seriously, I don’t get people who want to post about ratings and such, obviously following it the way I follow the NHL. As a TV viewer, I want to see shows that entertain me, which I’m sure is at cross-purposes with NBC making money. (I’d like to see shorter commerical breaks, for one, to say nothing of the fact that the only show on the network I watch is on a perpetual cancellation watch) What’s good for me is bad for them, so I’m not sure why I should be so solicitous of their point of view.

Comment #25: witless chum  on  10/10  at  12:57 PM

I should add that I wasn’t disagreeing with you for criticizing Parks: by all means, go for it. I was just offering an alternative explanation of its recent suckitude: that it’s writing wasn’t all that great or consistent to begin with, and so it has less room to get worse before stinking.

Comment #26: JasonB  on  10/10  at  12:57 PM

I just don’t relate to TV as the characters being my “TV friends”, so if they are absolute and complete assholes, that can be just as entertaining to me. I prefer it far more than ham-fisted sentimentality.

Yes, but complex assholes, please.  The reason the character of Pierce works (and why I would suggest oldfeminist try giving it a few episodes) is that he’s a pathetic asshole, old and alone and hopelessly out of touch and people are laughing at him and he knows it.  Also he’s marvelously funny in the D&D episode while being an incredible prick to a suicidal nerd.  The treatment of Brita has been a stale, endlessly repeated joke while draining the character of anything resembling a personality.

Comment #27: Gavel Down  on  10/10  at  01:09 PM

Oh man I was way too excited to read this because YES. I thought I was imagining it, but there were several moments during the last few episodes of P&R where I thought, “Why did they just explain that joke and make it not funny?” It makes me sad because not only has it been such a hilarious show, but Ann and Leslie’s relationship is, I think, one of the best fictional representations of adult female best friends ever. Too many shows make women catty back stabbers or unfunny sentimental mom-types, but P&R was almost perfect.

And also ditto on that Community musical. I must have watched 15 times already.

Comment #28: Rebecca Watson  on  10/10  at  01:09 PM

Oh, finally, I’d like to see more of Jeff being an asshole, and in ways other than “tempted to fuck a teenager.”  The first season had quite a bit of mocking him for being a smug, pretentious manipulative hipster and it was pretty fabulous.

Comment #29: Gavel Down  on  10/10  at  01:21 PM

So, is anyone watching Sunny this season?  I caught a few episodes and it seems… harsh for the sake of harshness.  Theyre really trying to get these characters as scum-baggy as possible. 

Its not all playing perfectly, but the decision of Fat Mac is a bold choice for the ensemble.

Comment #30: pasteymachine  on  10/10  at  01:34 PM

I have to admit that I hate Pierce’s character and I don’t think he adds anything at all.  The group would be just as funny without him.  They’re all assholes in their own fun way, and we don’t really need a character like Pierce to play that role.

Comment #31: bananacat  on  10/10  at  01:40 PM

One of the things I’ve had to learn with TV is that seasons are kind of separate things.  ST:TNG is unwatchable the first season, delightful seasons 2-4, and unwatchable again until the finale.  Buffy is an entirely different show Season 6, and only really gets its feet back halfway through Season 7.*  So it’s ok if a show goes an entirely different direction; it’s just a different show now.  And it might not like you any more, and that’s ok too.  There is a lot of TV.

That said, I appreciate “Sunny in Philadelphia” on an intellectual level, but I can’t watch it.  I just don’t need to incorporate that kind of negativity in my life.  There’s probably an episode of “How Things Work” or “Holmes on Homes” that could use my eyeballs instead.

*Man, I loved the themes of 6, but the implementation was so terrible!

Comment #32: Punditus Maximus  on  10/10  at  01:54 PM

Its not all playing perfectly, but the decision of Fat Mac is a bold choice for the ensemble.

I have only seen the first episode this season, which, yes—definitely harsher than is usual for them and that is saying something. But I am curious about the Fat Mac subplot as well. I can neither figure out where it came from nor where it is going.

Comment #33: Well, what?  on  10/10  at  02:25 PM

Well @33:

It came from the actor watching a sitcom and realizing the characters got more attractive with time.  He said wanted to deconstruct that.
Dude looks unhealthy… Dude looks… like me! *sobs*

Comment #34: pasteymachine  on  10/10  at  02:53 PM

I’m sure touchiness about seeing yourself mocked has nothing to do with your reaction to Britta, Gavel. Nothing.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/10  at  03:01 PM

I have nothing in common with Britta whatsoever, and I’m sure your meaningless, sneering response to my criticisms have nothing to do with my first comment hitting a little too close to home.  Nothing.

Comment #36: Gavel Down  on  10/10  at  03:28 PM

*Man, I loved the themes of 6, but the implementation was so terrible!

(Spoilers, obvs.)

I hated Willow being addicted to magic. I think they could have done all the good parts of that storyline if they’d gone with her being seduced by power, rather than addicted. Willow becoming a hugely powerful witch and going overboard with that would have made sense. And her fighting evil in her own way would have made for a neat dynamic with a disinterested Buffy. You’d have wondered whether Willow was right, despite her methods becoming increasingly questionable.

The great thing about Season 6’s ending is that Buffy doesn’t save the day. Willow is ultimately more powerful and beats her. Friendship, awww, saved the day instead.

Comment #37: witless chum  on  10/10  at  03:38 PM

How does it have mass appeal when they generally cancel such shows?  It seems to work… Sometimes.

Comment #38: Crissa  on  10/10  at  03:44 PM

junk science @ 22:
I assume that was sarcasm.  In case not, no, things can be just as unfunny and derivative in an accent other than standard US TV, including British. (SAE US western coastal?)

Comment #39: helen w. h.  on  10/10  at  04:07 PM

Let me expand further:  There is nothing wrong with making fun of liberals or anyone else, provided the jokes are 1. not excessively repetitive and 2. actually funny.  In early season one, there was a very funny moment where Britta proudly and self-righteously declared herself to be a “western, empowered WOMAN” to Abed’s dad and ended up making an ass of herself with her assumptions.  It was hilarious.  Similarly, the bake sale for awareness in one of the first episodes was a great parody of liberals.  And then there was Britta’s first boyfriend, Tiny Nipples.  He was great.  In the past few episodes I have seen a boring, leaden one note joke “haha Britta’s super leftyness makes her naive and a hypocrite” every single time she appears, and she speaks in a whining baby voice. 

Besides, when we laugh at the Britta jokes, we aren’t laughing at ourselves.  Neither of us are impoverished activists.  If anyone, I’d say the person you and I most resemble is Jeff.

Comment #40: Gavel Down  on  10/10  at  05:02 PM

In the past few episodes I have seen a boring, leaden one note joke “haha Britta’s super leftyness makes her naive and a hypocrite” every single time she appears, and she speaks in a whining baby voice

I’m not seeing the same joke as you are. It’s not that her leftyness makes her naive and hypocrite, it’s that her being pretty selfish and shallow as hell sabotages her ideals again and again. She constantly seems to be getting off on being holier than thou, not someone who’s an activist primarily because she believes in the cause or causes. And I don’t buy that she’s impoverished. Her wardrobe isn’t and I chose to believe that’s a deliberate costumers choice and not TV just being stupid.

Her motivation for protesting in the secon episode of the season wasn’t her ideals, it was that she was annoyed that her former friends were cooler than her.

Comment #41: witless chum  on  10/10  at  05:26 PM

It’s not that her leftyness makes her naive and hypocrite, it’s that her being pretty selfish and shallow as hell sabotages her ideals again and again.</blckquote>

Leaving aside for the moment that selfish, shallow, and stupid is a notorious antifeminist stereotype and not above criticism as a character choice, I didn’t see “getting off on being holier than thou,” I got “feeling like a wretched failure in living up to her own ideals.”  Can you provide some examples of selfish or shallow actions or words to back this up?

<blockquote>And I don’t buy that she’s impoverished.  Her wardrobe isn’t and I chose to believe that’s a deliberate costumers choice and not TV just being stupid.

That’s a very bad choice.

Comment #42: Gavel Down  on  10/10  at  05:37 PM

Should have previewed, sorry.

It’s not that her leftyness makes her naive and hypocrite, it’s that her being pretty selfish and shallow as hell sabotages her ideals again and again.

Leaving aside for the moment that selfish, shallow, and stupid is a notorious antifeminist stereotype and not above criticism as a character choice, I didn’t see “getting off on being holier than thou,” I got “feeling like a wretched failure in living up to her own ideals.”  Can you provide some examples of selfish or shallow actions or words to back this up?

And I don’t buy that she’s impoverished.  Her wardrobe isn’t and I chose to believe that’s a deliberate costumers choice and not TV just being stupid.

That’s a very bad choice.

Comment #43: Gavel Down  on  10/10  at  05:38 PM

I don’t think Britta works well as the holier-than-thou person who doesn’t really care about causes, mainly because that’s Shirley’s role and she’s better at it, and we don’t need two of them.  It works for Shirley because she’s the mother figure of the group (although mostly just due to her age, sadly) and that makes her seem like less of a jerk for it.

Shirley was the original holier-than-thou.  It’s great for Britta to care about her image because every single character does.  But there used to be more to her than that and I don’t like the way her character is changing.

Comment #44: bananacat  on  10/10  at  06:36 PM

So, is anyone watching Sunny this season?  I caught a few episodes and it seems… harsh for the sake of harshness.  Theyre really trying to get these characters as scum-baggy as possible.

Its not all playing perfectly, but the decision of Fat Mac is a bold choice for the ensemble.
Comment #30: pasteymachine on 10/10 at 01:34 PM

I’m watching it, and enjoying Fat Mac. 

The character of Sweet Dee always tickles me, because she’s horrible without any of it being associated with her gender.  And I enjoy gross humor, so stuff like the dead dog in the latest episode works for me.

Comment #45: oldfeminist  on  10/10  at  06:43 PM

The reason the character of Pierce works (and why I would suggest oldfeminist try giving it a few episodes) is that he’s a pathetic asshole, old and alone and hopelessly out of touch and people are laughing at him and he knows it.  Also he’s marvelously funny in the D&D episode while being an incredible prick to a suicidal nerd.  The treatment of Brita has been a stale, endlessly repeated joke while draining the character of anything resembling a personality.
Comment #27: Gavel Down on 10/10 at 01:09 PM

I just felt the characters were (1) the smart white guy trying to get one over on the system the same way we ha ha get out of jury duty and ha ha get out of a speeding ticket, and (2 through 99) a bunch of stereotypical comic foils to his “normal” POV, with again the Chevy Chase character representing the smart white guy grown old.  I didn’t feel I had the mental room for another such comedy.

Comment #46: oldfeminist  on  10/10  at  06:53 PM

As a thought experiment, let’s try to think like a television executive.

Oh gawd, SHUT UP ALREADY! I fucking hate this. It’s pathetic. No, I refuse to think like a TV exec, because I AM NOT A TV EXEC. James is just like the Obama apologists who are always like, “Well, you have to think like a political strategist to understand why Obama gave up on cause Y, and why he toned down his rhetoric on cause X, because otherwise voter group A wouldn’t vote for him…” People get PAID to think like political strategists and TV execs. Why do you want to put yourself in their shoes and make excuses for them? If they’re constrained in their choices by the system they’re in then go ahead and talk about that. But to play armchair strategist or TV exec or whatever, I don’t know. It’s like licking their boots, when they’re supposed to be providing a service to YOU. Ugh.

Comment #47: SallyStrange  on  10/10  at  07:40 PM

Old Feminist:  Pierce isnt smart.  He’s the dumbest of the group.  Pierce has every advantage, but that privilege separates him from being truly close to anyone.  Evryone barely tolerates him, to the point of having an episodes long debate on whether to kick him out. 

You nailed Jeff though. Hes LAWYER who faked having a pre-law degree.  Hes a liar and a shallow empty cup of handsome, and the point is hes finally getting a little substance. 

Britta has been getting better.  You kind of have to picked up that her backstory is shes been protesting on a shoe string for about 5 years longer than she should have, its gone no where, and now she wants to pay her rent.  Her wardrobe may be good,  but she has NO savings, and she waits tables. 

Comment #48: pasteymachine  on  10/10  at  08:24 PM

Shirley was the original holier-than-thou.  It’s great for Britta to care about her image because every single character does.  But there used to be more to her than that and I don’t like the way her character is changing.

Shirley is great because they keep her complex—the episode where she martyred Abed’s terrible Jesus movie was the first point where I started taking her really seriously as a character. And her occasional not-at-all-nice moments (like trying to get Chang locked up as a kidnapper, or suggesting that they baptize comatose Abed) do a good job reminding you that her adorb-sweet-mommy front is just a front.

But I don’t get that complexity out of Britta at all; she started out funny but kinda 1-dimensional and never got better (just got more predictable and hence less funny.) Maybe they’ll go somewhere with her character starting to become a decent student, and becoming more organized and having more to lose as she grows up (rather than just play up her stupidity for laughs)? I just feel like I still don’t have a handle on her as a person aside from the stereotypes.

(And the Abed-as-computer jokes are just falling flat now. Guys, you aren’t supposed to actually treat that as true! His ranking of everyone was funny, but just plugging data into him and getting algorithms out seemed dumb.)

Thank god Troy is still so so pretty. :D

Comment #49: Bagelsan  on  10/10  at  09:39 PM

pasteymachine, are there female characters that aren’t just tired stereotypes?  I’m looking at the wiki page about the characters and…the Black woman who’s hyper religious and gossipy?  The Jewish virgin?  The liberal poser and whiner?

Comment #50: oldfeminist  on  10/10  at  10:46 PM

(1) the smart white guy trying to get one over on the system the same way we ha ha get out of jury duty and ha ha get out of a speeding ticket

If that was what you thought it was, I’m not surprised you turned it off, but the first two seasons were not kind to Jeff at all. These are the people who made Arrested Development, after all.  They don’t really do likeable, but if that’s not your bag I understand.

pasteymachine, are there female characters that aren’t just tired stereotypes?

They’re treated with some complexity and wit, mostly.  Annie isn’t supposed to be a caricature of a Jewish girl, she’s Tracy Flick from Election.

Comment #51: Gavel Down  on  10/11  at  01:08 AM

51: Which Arrested Development creative (writer/director) alumni are on Community? I only ask because I can’t see how both would be spawned by the same mind(s).

Comment #52: norbizness  on  10/11  at  10:09 AM

pasteymachine, are there female characters that aren’t just tired stereotypes?  I’m looking at the wiki page about the characters and…the Black woman who’s hyper religious and gossipy?  The Jewish virgin?  The liberal poser and whiner?

Have you watched the show?  They’re all token characters, but that’s the point.  Most of them move beyond being mere tokens, so it’s done in a subversive way.  Troy is the high school jock, Abed is the one with Asperger’s, Jeff is the vain aging man who is desperately trying to cling to his youth and looks, and Pierce is the old angry guy.  But you go into the show seeing all these stereotypes and the entertainment comes when they actually turn out to be full people (in most cases).

Comment #53: bananacat  on  10/11  at  12:30 PM

I think when P&R and the Office began to be less fun was when they removed the threat. The Office isn’t as good when it’s “man, are my co-workers a bunch of juiceboxes” instead of “my co-workers are a bunch of juiceboxes and my Franzia-bag of a boss might lose us all our jobs.” Similarly, Chris and Ben aren’t as fun as doofy city manager and adorbs straightman as they are as the superhuman weirdo and his hobbit minion who want to shut down the parks department.

Basically, both shows lowered the stakes and are trying to get by on antics and sentimentality.

Comment #54: Matty  on  10/11  at  01:07 PM

  (1) the smart white guy trying to get one over on the system the same way we ha ha get out of jury duty and ha ha get out of a speeding ticket

If that was what you thought it was, I’m not surprised you turned it off, but the first two seasons were not kind to Jeff at all. These are the people who made Arrested Development, after all.  They don’t really do likeable, but if that’s not your bag I understand.
Comment #51: Gavel Down on 10/11 at 01:08 AM

I don’t require likeable—I did mention I liked Sunny, after all, where no one is likeable, I didn’t have problems watching Arrested Development (though I wasn’t super hooked), I enjoy Curb.  I liked the original Office, too.

What I do want is that the show world not be seen through white boy eyes.  That was what I got from the first episode, and why I didn’t tune in again.  The show doesn’t have to be “nice” to Jeff for the show to be written POV white boy or for people to identify with him even if he’s supposed to be a putz.

But you go into the show seeing all these stereotypes and the entertainment comes when they actually turn out to be full people (in most cases).
Comment #53: bananacat on 10/11 at 12:30 PM

The people start out as stereotypes and then “flesh out” into something more complex.  Great.  How about they not start out as stereotypes in the first place? 

Sitcom 101 is taking the stereotypical characters and putting them together in a jar with predictable results.  Sitcom 102 is showing a contradictory or soft-side quality to one of your comic stereotype characters.  It doesn’t sound like they’ve gone beyond that, though they are focusing on “different weird” rather than “different endearing” as is typical.

Whether the stereotypes are mitigated later on or the central white boy character is dissed doesn’t change the fact that the white boy is the center, stereotype characters assemble around him, and non-stereotypes don’t appear.

Could that formula still be funny?  Sure.  I won’t say there are no comedies I like that are just as flawed and formulaic.  I just didn’t warm to it and I don’t think I’m going to at this late date.

Comment #55: oldfeminist  on  10/11  at  01:23 PM

I think when P&R and the Office began to be less fun was when they removed the threat. The Office isn’t as good when it’s “man, are my co-workers a bunch of juiceboxes” instead of “my co-workers are a bunch of juiceboxes and my Franzia-bag of a boss might lose us all our jobs.”

Yeah, after the merger and the drawn out Jim/Pam stuff in S3, they decided that instead of the problems of the workplace they would focus on relationships in the office. Given the state of the economy in the past few years they could have written some really sharp stuff, but just sort of fell back on a bunch of lame will they/won’t they storylines that weren’t nearly as compelling. Of course to really tell a story of office life they would have had to layoff half the folks there.

Comment #56: Col Bat Guano  on  10/11  at  04:53 PM

Whether the stereotypes are mitigated later on or the central white boy character is dissed doesn’t change the fact that the white boy is the center, stereotype characters assemble around him, and non-stereotypes don’t appear.

This isn’t exactly the case, though; it starts that way but a lot of the show really isn’t about Jeff (including Troy and Abed’s bromance and some very Bechdel-test-passing stories), and non-stereotypes do appear (for an example off the top of my head, Chang the Spanish teacher.)

Comment #57: Bagelsan  on  10/11  at  08:41 PM

@56 - if they had laid off half the folks there, they could have branched out into how the different characters coped with some real open venues for some really funny, if likely dark, stuff.  But no one there had that kind of guts or vision.  I am keeping in touch with some of my co-worker friends who have been laid off, doesn’t eveyone do that?  Even as just gossip it could have added something.

Comment #58: helen w. h.  on  10/13  at  11:47 AM

OK, having watched the last Community I thought I’d take the opportunity to retract what I’d said earlier regarding my concerns about the show losing its way.  This episode (season 3 number 4) was pretty much everything I’d been waiting for, and hoping for.  I had considered adding to my complaints earlier in this thread but I’m glad I waited on developments.  The group dynamics are back and I feel this episode was both the funniest and most interesting this season by a large margin.  I expect it’s too late to spark any debate in this thread, but I’d just like to underline that the best part of watching a show like Community is the human factor.  Everyone of the ensemble, when given a chance to prove that they have feelings, rose to the occasion, but when thwarted by externalities was reactionary and diminished.  I relate to that on many levels in real life, and having seen it laid out so cleanly I feel hopeful on multiple levels, for observers of the show and of the human race.  There are lessons again for the circumspect.

Comment #59: Skipjack  on  10/14  at  12:10 AM
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