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Nerds and geeks

Books

The temperatures are going up (in Austin, they’re finally reaching close to 100) and the news cycle is slowing down, so I suppose that means more book reviews, movie reviews, and pop culture digressions.  I just read two books back to back that delve into what is certainly one of the compelling themes of modern culture—-nerdiness and geekery.  One is an anthology about women in the world of geeks called She’s Such a Geek: Women Write About Science, Technology, and Other Nerdy Stuff, and the other is an analysis of how the nerd stereotype, as understood by children (particularly middle school age), perpetuates the sort of anti-intellectual attitudes that are hurting this country, called Nerds: Who They Are and Why We Need More of Them.  Reading the two back to back, you get a feeling for how nerds and geeks are different, for sure, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg in what is a remarkably underanalyzed part of our culture, considering how much people worry about geekery and nerditude.

Nerds was written by child psychologist David Anderegg, and I’ll state up front that it was not without its flaws.  Anderegg is way to quick to compare anti-nerd stereotypes to bigotry, particularly racism, which bothered me since the stereotype of the nerd so very often gets attached to people who are relatively privileged people, even if they weren’t popular in middle school.  I also thought his disdainful for adults who retain their youthfulness was misplaced—-being “hip” isn’t always a choice made from fear, but often from a genuine desire to enjoy certain pleasures like new technology and music, instead of fading into the fuddy-duddy mentality. But those minor quibbles aside, it was an interesting examination of how the “nerd” stereotype, which is generally understood amongst adults in a relatively harmless way that incorporates nuance, is a black and white issue when you crawl down the maturity ladder.  Kids don’t have the capacity to really get geek chic or nerd pride, and instead simply believe that a nerd is one of the worst possible things you can be, and so run from it and punish kids who don’t with all their might.  And running from the nerd stereotype means avoiding subjects like math or science, or seeming too smart or refusing to pretend to be more sexually precocious than you are. 

In the process, he has to spend a lot of time even trying to figure out what the content of the term “nerd” even is.  (Anderegg is reasonably skeptical of the idea that there’s much difference between nerds and geeks, especially on a child level, though I think by the time you get to adulthood, there’s a sense that geeks are more socially skilled, and their geekiness is an attribute of liking certain things that may not preclude being hip in other ways.)  He concludes that the nerd needs the jock to exist, and vice versa, and that it functions as a way for middle school kids, and to a lesser extent high school kids, to understand their social hierarchies, which are based on a crude form of physical power.  He also grounds the stereotypes in the very old American struggle between the New World Man of Action vs. the Old World Man of Reflection, a false dichotomy that Americans seem to fall prey to over and over. (He mentions Ulysses as an example of a classic hero who doesn’t have to be fall on one side of the other of the mind/body split.  I’d point out that a new version that might be helpful to kids is the movie “Ironman”—-Tony Stark has all the telltale signs of being a nerd, including semi-magical technological genius, but he’s a Man of Action and totally not a nerd.)  He therefore links the nerdy preoccupations with technology and magical fantasies with this mind/body split, suggesting that both are seen by kids as a way to get access to power that isn’t a result of just physicality, and therefore they see it as transgressive.  But a lot of things can get a middle school kids labeled as a nerd, since middle school is a time of heightened interest in conformity.

 

Nerdiness is also about sex, or the lack of it, which is one reason that middle school kids, who are preoccupied with the idea of sex, are also preoccupied with fears of nerdiness.  I appreciated that Anderegg didn’t sugarcoat this reality for nervous parents.  He also, while being very pro-nerd, takes a reasonable, moderate position about the importance of “superficial” things like one’s appearance.  Some parents really are so intent on bringing up non-materialistic kids, it seems, that they forget that it’s not the end of the world to calm a middle schooler’s nightmarish existence by getting them a decent haircut or letting them wear blue jeans to school. 

One thing that Anderegg touches on but doesn’t delve deeply into in his discussion of the nerd stereotype is the fact that the Platonic nerd is invariably male.  The stereotype is flexible to incorporate women and girls on an individual basis, but few people conjure up the image of a woman when they think about nerds.  He doesn’t really get into why, because the on-the-ground reality is that girls do fear the nerd stereotype and run from math and science classes along with the boys, and he fears that the nerd stereotype on top of other pressures on girls to prove their femininity through anti-intellectualism is creating a massive problem.  But it’s nonetheless an interesting issue that She’s Such A Geek tries to address.  While some of the women who contribute to this anthology delve into how their geekhood separates them from the world at large, most are more interested in exploring how their womanhood separates them from really feeling at home with the geeks.

Part of the reason goes back to sex.  The nerd stereotype is one of a dude who wants but can’t get sex.  But women tend to be understood in terms of being desireable and available objects to such a degree that those who are put outside of those categories end up being closer to invisible.  If geekiness isn’t sexy, then women geeks simply aren’t seen in our culture, or at least they aren’t generally imagined.  Thus female geeks do routinely run into a sense that they aren’t even believed to be real, which puts an incredible burden on them just to assert themselves in the spaces that they thought would be most welcoming to them.

Sex is rarely far from any kind of analyzing of nerdiness or geekery.  Anderegg writes extensively about the bizarre but widespread American belief that you can be sexual or intelligent, but not both and especially not at once.  (Expressed often in the axiom about thinking with this head or that one.)  In one of the better essays in She’s Such A Geek, “Suzy the Computer Versus Dr. Sexy”, Suzanne E. Franks tackles this stereotype head on, talking about how her geeky male colleagues all seemed to think that excelling mentally meant shutting down sexually, but she discovered, through trial and error, that the more she was getting the laid, the more creative she became and the more able to take on mentally challenging tasks.  Which seems like common sense to me—-if you’re hungry or tired, you’re probably not as sharp, so why would it be different if you’re body is preoccupied with sending signals that you need some booty?  But the fact that incredibly intelligent people can’t see this really demonstrates how powerful the stereotype is.

The one thing that made me sad about She’s Such A Geek was how, over and over, female scientists and engineers writing their stories end up with, “And then I had to decide between my sanity/family or a research position/high-paying powerful corporate job, and I chose the former.”  I realize men go through this process a lot, but it does make you wonder if more women opt out than men, and why that might be.  Every individual case feels so pragmatic and so individual that you want to avoid claiming it’s a pattern, but after awhile it builds up and you wonder, aren’t there any proud female geeks who can write about sticking it out?

Please share you thoughts on geek/nerd work lives, sex lives, childhood nightmares, and online lives in comments.  As usual, the discussion about the differences (if there are differences) between nerds and geeks, like all unresolvable questions, is entertaining as all fuck, so I encourage that, as well. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:48 PM • (93) Comments

I’m definitely more on the nerd side of the line—I never excelled at anything dealing with numbers or technology.  So I’ve always found the Bill Gates/Steve Jobs archetypal story about rising the top of the finanical success ladder as compensation for earlier social ordeals to not ring very true to my own experience. 

As for my wife, she’s definitely a science geek who I wish would post here.  She’s seen so many women in the sciences being forced to drop out because their careers ended up being secondary to their husbands’.

Comment #1: Dr. Locrian  on  06/10  at  03:07 PM

I don’t really know the difference between geek/nerd/dork but I certainly am one of those.  I’ve always done well in school and got a lot of encouragement from my teachers.  I never felt embarrassed by my intelligence, but I have felt embarrassed about my unusual hobbies, such as Lego, Dungeons and Dragons, Sci-Fi/Fantasy and MMORPGs.  I have never looked like a stereotypical geek though.  I’ve been sexually active since high school, and I certainly was in college.  As a teenager, I didn’t have a problem with making friends, but I was often frustrated that it was hard to find friends with the same interests as me.  I never fit into a specific group, and birthday parties were weird because my friends weren’t necessarily friends with each other.  All of that changed when I went to college for engineering.  It was much easier to find people that I could talk to about silly stuff that would make other people look at me funny (like time travel paradoxes or how an N is just a sideways Z).  Anyway, pretty much everyone in my class at college was a geek/nerd/dork, but very few of them fit the stereotype.  There were plenty of attractive men and women who cared about fashion, music, pop culture, etc.  And the engineering students were as sexually active as all the other students.  I sort of had a crisis about my unusual interests in middle school (just like everyone else) and if I met a middle-schooler like I was, my advice would be to wait until college and things will get much better then when you’re around people who chose to study the same thing as you.

OT, but one year as I was giving out Halloween candy, a trick-or-treater was dressed up as a mad scientist, and I was sort of offended by that.  I gave him the candy anyway, but I tried to impart some wisdom during the 20 seconds of interaction I had with him.  Since I was originally planning to go into genetic engineering, I am especially sensitive to the mad scientist insult.  I can’t think of many movies/books/shows that portray scientists in a good light.  Most people think of Frankenstein when they think of a scientist, especially a genetic engineer.  Oh, I also hate it when people use the word “chemical” like it’s a four-letter word.  Everything is a chemical, and a big fancy name doesn’t necessarily imply that a material is dangerous.

Comment #2: bananacat  on  06/10  at  03:22 PM

He concludes that the nerd needs the jock to exist, and vice versa, and that it functions as a way for middle school kids, and to a lesser extent high school kids, to understand their social hierarchies, which are based on a crude form of physical power.

I’m just curious, but does he factor in that this isn’t a universal?  I say that because I went through the normal Canadian school system (that is, public), and I’ve tended to find that the nerd/jock dichotomy doesn’t seem to exist nearly as strongly, if at all.  Perhaps I simply lucked out in the schools I attended, but that difference didn’t really exist because, well, the nerds and the jocks were strongly overlapping sets.  At the end of the school year when they gave out various achievement and participation awards, a great many of the same people were going up to collect them for sports and academics.  In fact, I would have been clearly classified as a nerd/geek based on popular portrayals in the media: high marks, interest in science, not a wildly successful teenage Casanova, wore glasses, on the Reach for the Top academic competition team.  Yet when I received a plaque for my participation in school activities, I was rather amused to note that that it was primarily for my athletic activities as a player, manager, and official.

And I wasn’t, by any means, the only person that this was true for.  About the only sport where at least a third to half of the players weren’t also on the honors list at graduation was the hockey team.

That isn’t to say there weren’t social groupings, but they didn’t include nerd-jock.  If there was any big division it was between academic (planning on some kind of university/college attendance) and occupational (the guys and girls down in the shop and garage).

Comment #3: KeithM  on  06/10  at  03:24 PM

As a nerd dating nerds, I’ve seen very little confusion (except, I suppose, joking confusion) about my sexuality.  Quite the contrary—I’ve found that I have to do very, very little to be considered attractive by the kind of person I like.  I think my bafflement with that attraction has more to do with the fact that I’m its object than that it’s really hard to predict.  After all, I could be said to like people who are an awful lot like me: humanities nerds with lives and a powerful tolerance for whiskey.

I have seen, though, a lot of confusion from the men I date about their own sexuality.  They routinely express surprise to me that they’re having sex in general, and with me in particular.  It’s probably the only uncomfortable thing I’ve noticed about dating nerds, since I’m fairly certain that I’m actually a person of very average attractions outside of nerd world.  That disconnect is odd.  So is being treated like a catch by someone I’m thrilled to be with, instead of like one of the people involved in a mutual and perfectly reasonable attraction.

Comment #4: themmases  on  06/10  at  03:50 PM

Billy: Okay, Eric. Describe your perfect Friday night.

Eric: My perfect Friday night? Well, I could head to the mall and catch a movie. PG, of course. Or I could stay at home and play “Tetris” with my parents [Billy rings in]

Sean: Billy.

Billy: He’s a geek! [buzzer sounds]

Sean: Sorry, sorry, sorry, that’s not it. Mark, your turn to ask a question.

Mark: Okay, Eric, what would you say if I asked you to borrow your dad’s car to go to a party.

Eric: Will there be drinking at said party? [Mark rings in]

Mark: Sean, I got this one. This guy’s a dweeb.

Comment #5: norbizness  on  06/10  at  03:50 PM

I’m just curious, but does he factor in that this isn’t a universal?

I second this point as this dichotomy doesn’t seem to exist outside of the US mainstream K-12 schools.  If anything, most international students I’ve met over the years from Europe, Africa, and Asia found this mentality so alien to their own experiences. 

In addition to the fact it wasn’t unusual to excel at both sports and academics, the valuation of both is often quite different from the US.  At least speaking for Chinese school systems from my parents’ own experiences down to friends in my generation and younger….excelling at academics MADE YOU POPULAR and cool among your peers and it was students who didn’t prioritized academic achievement who were socially ostracized.  Though athletics were valued, it wasn’t prioritized by society, schools, and students as it seems in the US.

Comment #6: exholt  on  06/10  at  03:50 PM

I’ve always found the Bill Gates/Steve Jobs archetypal story about rising the top of the finanical success ladder as compensation for earlier social ordeals to not ring very true to my own experience.

I wouldn’t say that the nerd depends on the existence of the jock to exist so much as those who are adept at finding social success depend on those who aren’t to exist.

Social popularity and social reward isn’t just about a few physical features (height, beauty, etc) and temperament (charisma), though that’s a large part of it. It also feeds on itself in which the socially successful develop an understanding and desire for acquiring and doing the things that will lead to social success and validation. Those who lack these opportunities or temperament are going to put less of a personal priority in finding out what will give them greater and greater social esteem and instead turn to things that make them personally more happy or intellectually satisfied. And what does gives one high social acclaim in adulthood? Money and wealth. Someone who thrives on and succeeds at social success is going to go after these opportunities to make a lot of money for its own sake because of the social accolades it provides. Meanwhile, someone not in this position without these social interests (or natural talents) is going to pursue directions in which money is not necessarily the object.

So, yes, I probably make more money than your average dumb jock or Joe the Plumber, but my more socially agressive, more charismatic intellectual counterparts took advantage of the opportunities they had to go into investment banking or corporate law because they were more aware of and more desirous of the social rewards that money provides in these fields.

Comment #7: Tyro  on  06/10  at  03:52 PM

Amanda: Kids don’t have the capacity to really get geek chic or nerd pride, and instead simply believe that a nerd is one of the worst possible things you can be, and so run from it and punish kids who don’t with all their might. 

Well, for values of “kids” < “the set of all kids”, maybe. In my day, when I was a kid in the 1970’s, the term was neither “nerd” nor “geek” (those came later), but simply “weird”, and I owned it hardcore. I told total strangers that I was weird, and I was proud of being weird. The line from the song “Almost Cut My Hair”, “Feel like letting my freak flag fly”, was my anthem. My entire philosophy of life was “I’m OK, you’re dubious”, and if there was a conflict between me and the world as to the correct way to be, I thought it self-evident that I was right and they were just stupid.

I’m not saying that other kids didn’t punish me for it—they did—but what I got from that was not my social inferiority but theirs. I perceived myself as better than them, but persecuted for it. (Why I didn’t become a Randroid, I don’t know, but I thank the flying spaghetti monster for it. grin)

Catgirl: OT, but one year as I was giving out Halloween candy, a trick-or-treater was dressed up as a mad scientist, and I was sort of offended by that.  I gave him the candy anyway, but I tried to impart some wisdom during the 20 seconds of interaction I had with him.  Since I was originally planning to go into genetic engineering, I am especially sensitive to the mad scientist insult.  I can’t think of many movies/books/shows that portray scientists in a good light. 

I tried to go into science (failed because I got depressed during a crucial semester of grad school, but it’s still one of my great loves in life), and I *love* mad scientists. I dress up as them for Halloween myself. They’re not necessarily always evil, you know; I can think of multiple positive portrayals of the mad scientist archetype (Doc from “Back to the Future” is the most obvious one.) And I wonder if you actually read or watch any science fiction whatsoever if you’re not familiar with the positive portrayals of scientists in our culture. I actually see far more positive portrayals than negative portrayals, but I also live pretty much exclusively in the sf ghetto, so if there are evil mad scientists turning up in spy action thrillers I don’t see them.

Just off the top of my head, though: Scully (forensic scientist, but still scientist), Spock (and every other science officer in Star Trek—totally unrealistic because they have every discipline, but still very positive), Peter Parker, Tony Stark (engineer more than scientist, but most people can’t tell the difference), Sam Carter (Stargate SG-1), Rodney McKay (Stargate Atlantis), Willow Rosenberg (Buffy)... and I don’t even watch that much TV. I will confess, though, that I don’t know of many genetic engineers who are portrayed positively; even Star Trek treats genetic engineering as the ultimate horror. (But if you’d *like* to read about genetic engineers and psychologists portrayed positively, I recommend Cyteen and its sequel by C. J. Cherryh.)

Comment #8: Alara J Rogers  on  06/10  at  03:57 PM

Not to belabor the obvious, but you do realize that just by reading any of this (let alone posting here), you’ve clearly identified yourself as a major nerd.

Oh, wait…

Comment #9: smartalek  on  06/10  at  03:58 PM

I must also chime in with the fact that we didn’t have jocks, per say, at our school. I think the jock/nerd dichotomy is really not that present in Canada, at least Quebec. One reason might be that we don’t have the whole pep rally bullshit, rah-rah support of school athletes, and so on. We also don’t have fraternities on university campuses, believe it or not (well, in the francophone universities at least). My first contact with the ‘bros’ was during an internship in the USA. And of course, I got to meet all the ones that seemed to jump straight out of Revenge of the Nerds or some other piece of Americana.

Here it’s mostly about being popular/extroverts and being unpopular/introverts. Normally the popular kids are:

a) liked by administration/teachers
b) involved in extracurricular activities that are school specific: sports, sure, but also the journal, year book, student government, etc
c) decent academically (which I think is the big difference from the USA)

You also have countercultural groups who are in opposition to both the popular crowd and the unpopular (us) crowd, but IMO they are ‘popular’ in an alternative way that is not well liked by the administration: the metalheads, or the skater/extreme sport crowd. We didn’t have an hip hop contingent in my days because this was the 90s in a rather white bread town. There have been a lot more immigrants moving in the city since then and hip hop is now actually popular even with white kids, so I’m guessing we’d have that group now as well.

I had friends in all those groups, and enemies in all of them except for my own, which was just our little band of geeks. We were mostly together because of interests outside of school: video games, RPGs, things like that.

When I got bullied was mostly when I tried to get into sports. Possibly part initiation, part retribution because I didn’t play my part as the victim and tried to strike back.

Comment #10: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  03:58 PM

KeithM:

I’m just curious, but does he factor in that this isn’t a universal?

I wonder about that, too. The descriptions of high-school social hierarchies often sound cartoonish to me. As I remember my experience, there was a clique of jocks and cheerleaders, but they weren’t in any way the top of a hierarchy, they were just a group that mostly socialized with each other, like many others. (Maybe it had something to do with the fact that our school was smaller than all but a few in our area, so our “major” sports teams like football and basketball nearly always had losing seasons, so being part of them didn’t make you a hero.) They may have looked down on us, but we looked down on a lot of them, too, so it definitely wasn’t hierarchical.

I was one of the “smart kids,” and I was also involved in “lesser” sports like swimming and track. I also had the advantage of being one of the tallest kids in school, so I never had to worry about bullies. I was somewhat socially awkward, not unattractive, and in retrospect, probably could have had quite a bit of success with girls if I hadn’t been too shy to ask them out. The “smart kids” were roughly evenly divided between boys and girls (maybe a few more boys, but not a lot.)

I met (and later married) a geek girl playing D&D;at our school science fiction and gaming club, which was pretty proudly weird from the outset, so the idea that high school kids can’t possibly get geek pride also doesn’t ring true for me. All these descriptions sound more like movies and TV shows than real life to me. My high school experience was quite a while ago now, so maybe that explains it, but supposedly things were even more rigid back then.

Comment #11: Redshift  on  06/10  at  04:04 PM

Tyro:

I guess I wasn’t talking so much about looks or work ethic so much as a particular generational experience as it’s typically been portrayed in movies and television:  those who came of age during the Internet boom and the rise of the personal computer.

Specifically, this thread reminded me of a scene in Freaks and Geeks where a nerdy teacher is trying to give a pep talk to our younger set of geek protagonists.  He tells them that things may be bad because they’re picked on, but some day they’ll be the heads of Fortune 500 companies and those jocks that picked on them will be serving fries.  For a series that normally went out of its way to portray adolescent life in a very naturalistic, truthful way, the scene rang very false to me.

Comment #12: Dr. Locrian  on  06/10  at  04:04 PM

Granted my school crowd was greatly skewed due to the homeschooling, and then community college and right now online college - so exposure to traditional hierarchies is lacking here, mine is taken from my own perception of media. My boyfriend also underscores how the dichotomy of jock/nerd is a little blurred, his being on the football team and playing Dungeon and Dragons, for example. Although I think now there is a lot more emphasis on the universality of say, World of Warcraft and Star Trek. There is still the less than stellar portrayal of “nerds” - the science/math-minded intelligent set. Anyone who has watched Big Bang Theory* can see how the nerds are typically undersexed and peculiar, and the lone female nerd (Leslie) is presented as cold, meticulous and disinterested vs. the “common-woman” of Penny, who is clever and sexy.

*Which I really do enjoy, but is nevertheless capitalizing on every nerd/geek/dork stereotype ever.

Comment #13: Tenya  on  06/10  at  04:12 PM

What exholt said. I believe this is an American societal problem, not an anthropological one. Still needs to be addressed, but with that mindset.

Comment #14: the matthew show  on  06/10  at  04:14 PM

Alara:

Well, for values of “kids” < “the set of all kids”, maybe. In my day, when I was a kid in the 1970’s, the term was neither “nerd” nor “geek” (those came later), but simply “weird”, and I owned it hardcore.

Exactly! I’d forgotten that “geek” didn’t come until later. Weird overlapped with the smart kids, but wasn’t the same. I also recall when we got old enough to discover science fiction conventions in the late 70s, I heard one of the previous generation of SF fans complaining that while they prided themselves on being smarter than everyone else, fans our age prided themselves on being weirder than everyone else.

Comment #15: Redshift  on  06/10  at  04:14 PM

I usually make a distinction between “nerd” and “geek,” with the former having the more negative connotations: arrested development (stuck in a high school mentality); unmerited arrogance (“I’m better than everyone else because I know all about [esoteric topic X]”); misogyny (on the part of the male nerds); lack of a sense of humour about oneself; poor hygiene and grooming; etc. There’s a reason that the ranks of right-wing and Libertarian punditry are a phalanx of HS debate-club nerds.

Me? Even though I’m not as instantly identifiable as one anymore, I’m a big ol’ geek—always have been, always will be, and happily so. I’m more comfortable in solitude than in the company of others, am more interested in intellectual pursuits, bookworm, tech nut, honours student, have oddball interests. Somewhere on my home machine is my 15-year-old classification according to the Geek Code (just knowing about this makes one a geek by default).

I wouldn’t say I’m a nerd, though. I went to a private high school full of “smart kids” and geeky cliques, so there was none of the real bullying there that seems to create the nerd. Even the popular and good-looking kids had some sort of geeky obsession (my own popularity was consistently middling), and if you weren’t an academic achiever you were achieving in some other area. My prom date was a music geek who was also a blonde bombshell, sex and drugs were plentiful for those who were ready to partake (not for me, though I made up for the sex in college), and the jocks were too busy preparing for pro careers (which a few actually achieved) to bully anyone. It was an unusual place, and I’m very fortunate to have attended.

In my professional life, I’ve been equally fortunate to work in industries populated by geeks (tech and non-tech), so smooth sailing there.

I can’t think of many movies/books/shows that portray scientists in a good light.

In Neal Stephenson’s Anathem, a character classifies some of these stereotypes:

The Muncostran Iconography: eccentric, lovable, disheveled theorician, absent-minded, means well. The Pendarthan: fraas as high-strung, nervous, meddling know-it-alls who simply don’t understand the realities; lacking physical courage, they always lose out to more masculine Sæculars. The Klevan Iconography: theor as an awesomely wise elder statesman who can solve all the problems of the Sæcular world. The Baudan Iconography: we are grossly cynical frauds living in luxury at the expense of common man. The Penthabrian: we are guardians of ancient mystical secrets of the universe handed down to us by Cnoüs himself, and all our talk about theorics is just a smoke-screen to hide our true power from the unwashed multitude.

I’d define Stephenson’s various terms, but I’m confident that this geeky crowd will grok them (Ok, I’ll stop now).

Comment #16: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  04:15 PM

“Nerd” to me has always implied a cognitive/social deficit—practically a personality disorder in other words.  “Geek” has for the most part always carried a mostly positive connotation, a more or less well-adjusted person socially who has non-standard or esoteric interests compared with his or her contemporaries.  Often, in my experience, the early “nerd” matures into the “geek”—I rather think this happened in my case.

Comment #17: Felix Culpa  on  06/10  at  04:15 PM

Is there hope for change on the horizon, at least w/r/t smart women not necessarily being presumed out of existence?

I’m thinking of Kim Possible, the Powerpuff Girls, and Dr Jean Grey, among others.  But since I’ve never seen either of the cartoons, I don’t know how “smart” any of them are portrayed as being, or whether they’re shown as having to pay some kind of social price for letting their intellects show.

Tyro, good points.  I think many members of the nerd/geek community (or is that a bit of an oxymoron to the stereotype?) are very conscious of that motivation. I’ve never been to an MIT football game, but I’m told by someone who claims to be in a position to know, that they have a cheer they use when trounced (which I guess would be most of the time?) that goes:

“That’s all right
That’s okay
You’re gonna work
for us someday”

Comment #18: smartalek  on  06/10  at  04:15 PM

They routinely express surprise to me that they’re having sex in general,

In my (vast) experience, this is pretty common among non-nerd guys too, especially since I actually prefer no-strings hook-ups and they don’t have to buy me dinner, fake an interest in my cute cat stories, or put a ring on my finger before I want to have sex.

I second this point as this dichotomy doesn’t seem to exist outside of the US mainstream K-12 schools.

It actually doesn’t exist much in US mainstream K-12 schools either, at least not the ones I’ve been to.  It mostly exists in stereotypical teen movies.  While my schools certainly had cliques and snobbery, it was rare to hear people being made fun for being smart.  In fact, being smart was often admired by other students.

Comment #19: bananacat  on  06/10  at  04:16 PM

KeithM, he’s acutely aware that it’s a U.S. thing, and mourns that other cultures are picking it up from our pop culture.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/10  at  04:19 PM

decent academically (which I think is the big difference from the USA)

I think this comes from the low-stakes nature of high school in the USA. Poor performance academically in high school won’t shut you out of a college education (you’ll get in somewhere) and the fact that many professional positions in the US tend to be sales-related, which does not necessarily depend on academic/intellectual achievement or expertise. The professioanl consequences of academic weakness in high school are lower in the US, and thus there’s less social esteem (or at least fewer social points) accorded for academic achievement. People like exholt (and myself, for that matter) whose families came from countries where the academic stakes of high school were much, much higher and are still perceived the same way will tend to have a different view in the US and choose to sort students out almost entirely by academic accolades.

a nerdy teacher is trying to give a pep talk to our younger set of geek protagonists.  He tells them that things may be bad because they’re picked on, but some day they’ll be the heads of Fortune 500 companies and those jocks that picked on them will be serving fries. For a series that normally went out of its way to portray adolescent life in a very naturalistic, truthful way, the scene rang very false to me.

Hm. You see, the outcome doesn’t ring true, but the scene and the rhetoric does. It sounds like the whole scene was being portrayed ironically—because that nerdy teacher was likely similar to that set of protagonists when he was young and now he’s not a head of a Fortune 500 company, he’s a teacher. And why? Probably because he liked the idea of being a teacher more than he saw himself as some kind of “captain of industry” whose ambition was to have a big office.

Comment #21: Tyro  on  06/10  at  04:21 PM

I can’t think of many popular movies/books/shows that portray scientists in a good light.

There, I corrected myself.  I was specifically referring to media aimed at children.  I remember a cartoon where a kid genetically engineered some tomatoes for some reason, and they grew in a dark, concrete room and tasted like pork because they had pig genes.  Of course, genetic engineering doesn’t work that way, and I was offended that they not only gave kids incorrect information about genetics, but they also portrayed the scientist kid as crazy, power-hungry, and unstable.

Even the most scientific characters on prime-time dramas are portrayed as being smart but weird, like Gil Grissom in CSI who is shown as an unmarried man who is obsessed with work.  Then there’s Dr. House who is brilliant but arrogant, the typical mad scientist portrayal.

Kids don’t have the capacity to really get geek chic or nerd pride

Well, I did, but it took some time and experience.  But that’s what growing up is about.

Comment #22: bananacat  on  06/10  at  04:24 PM

Tyro:

I wouldn’t say that the nerd depends on the existence of the jock to exist so much as those who are adept at finding social success depend on those who aren’t to exist.

Yes, I think that’s it exactly.

Dr. Locrian: I agree, but the scene could have rung more true if he had been telling them they’d be successful techies, rather than tech CEOs. This is widely misunderstood in movie and TV writers, who seem unable to grasp that geeks now “rule the world” not by transforming into clones of the stereotypical high school ruling clique, but by already being the kind of people who could create things that have transformed life, that is, by building on their geek characteristics, not transcending them

Comment #23: Redshift  on  06/10  at  04:26 PM

“I can’t think of many movies/books/shows that portray scientists in a good light”

Ghostbusters, especially as compared to Walter Peck. And Saturn 3, I believe.

Comment #24: norbizness  on  06/10  at  04:31 PM

smartalek:

“That’s all right
That’s okay
You’re gonna work
for us someday”

Not sure about how it was used at MIT, but as a Yalie, I can report that in the Ivy League, that one was the standard response to:

“Break their elbows
Break their knees
We have higher
SATs!”

(We were on the “SAT” side against everyone except Harvard, where we had the response.)

Yay, geek culture! grin

Comment #25: Redshift  on  06/10  at  04:32 PM

Even the most scientific characters on prime-time dramas are portrayed as being smart but weird

As far as I can tell, these all seem to fall into a few categories: there’s the desexualized scientist, sometimes in a wheelchair to drive home the point, there’s the “supermodel with a ponytail and glasses” nuclear physicist who falls for the cop/military officer, or the evil mad scientist whose obsessions and detachment from humanity will ruin the lives of everyone else (Dr. Baltar being, strangely, both the archetype of this while at the same time being the most charismatic, compelling portrayal).

Ghostbusters, especially as compared to Walter Peck.

Good call. Also, Dustin Hoffman and his scientific/medical staff in outbreak. Particularly when the antagonists are the military-industrial complex who just wants to wipe everything out and be done with the problem.

Comment #26: Tyro  on  06/10  at  04:34 PM

my CT public high school did not have the “classic” nerd-jock dichotomy; the major athletes were black kids from the projects (football) and working-class Italians and Irish (baseball, wrestling). Affluent whites were mostly (like 2/3ds) Jews, and if they were athletes, they did things like track, cross country, tennis (not terribly macho or heavily-promoted sports). Cheerleading was a working-class Italian-Irish thing.

So among the rich kids (myself included) I spent most of the day with, we had nerds and “normal people.” The more popular normal people were mostly the same group as choir/drama clique, believe it or not. 

Half-assed theory: You need some homogeneity in your student body to have the classic nerd-jock divide. My high school was too riven by racial, ethnic, and class divisions for that.  (The only student activity that wasn’t a thorough ghetto for one group or another was the track team, and even there, black kids owned the sprint events, white weenies like me ran distance.)

We had bright, academic achievers with brilliant social (read: sex) lives. How I loathed them.

Comment #27: wapsie  on  06/10  at  04:36 PM

In the heyday of the biopic (mid 30s to early 40s), I think Dr. Paul Ehrlich, Louis Pasteur, and the Curies all got a star turn.

Comment #28: norbizness  on  06/10  at  04:38 PM

My favorite boys in high school were the math/science geeks. I didn’t excel at math but at the time I was really into science fiction and getting A’s in most other subjects - especially literature - made me a valuable asset to the Quiz Bowl team. I made friends with other geeks and we reveled in our geekiness. We totally got geek pride and even named our clique. I think that crowd of boys and girls was safe for me because I could just be myself. There was no pressure to play dumb to get the guy - it was quite the opposite most of the time.

The one thing I did notice was that there were not a lot of girls who tried out or competed in Quiz Bowl - in my school or in the ones we competed against. Lots of girls I knew were into other extra cirriculars, even ones like student council, band or orchestra where there was direct competition with boys during elections or auditions for first chair- but Quiz Bowl didn’t attract a lot of girls to participate. Even the ones who were much smarter than me - I think they were intimidated in a way the really smart boys weren’t.

Comment #29: MissCherryPi  on  06/10  at  04:45 PM

It actually doesn’t exist much in US mainstream K-12 schools either, at least not the ones I’ve been to.  It mostly exists in stereotypical teen movies.  While my schools certainly had cliques and snobbery, it was rare to hear people being made fun for being smart.  In fact, being smart was often admired by other students.

Catgirl,

That’s not what I’ve heard from plenty of college classmates, friends, and colleagues who attended mainstream US K-12 schools…whether public or private.  Some childhood friends who attended my zoned high school in NYC witnessed/experienced violent beatings because they were the “smart kids” and cousins and friends reported similar incidents in US public and private K-12 schools from all over the US. 

Moreover, I’ve had a taste of that BS in junior high school as I was pegged as one of the “smart kids” and thus, a nerd/geek to be picked on by everyone else.

Comment #30: exholt  on  06/10  at  04:49 PM

I think the nerd/jock thing has to be actively encouraged by the adults in the school.  I still remain absolutely baffled by the extent to which jocks were supported and elevated by middle and high school authority.  Looking back on it, who cares?  They’re just kids playing sports.  If it’s good for them, great, and developing kids’ capacities is what school is for.  But that’s all it is. 

So weird.

Comment #31: Punditus Maximus  on  06/10  at  04:50 PM

I think the nerd/jock thing has to be actively encouraged by the adults in the school.  I still remain absolutely baffled by the extent to which jocks were supported and elevated by middle and high school authority.

Jocks: American public high school administrators AS “Trustys”: American prison wardens.

Not weird at all, considering the nature of public schools.

Comment #32: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  04:54 PM

Count me among the ranks of those who don’t particularly understand (or care about) distinctions between the terms “nerd,” “geek,” or “dork” but casually admits to being one or all of the above.

It’s definitely something that evolves over time. I was always a bit of a paradox in my childhood and adolescent period. I wore all of the telltale signs of being a geek (very strong academically and didn’t pretend otherwise, highly enthusiastic about things like video games and, for a time, collectible card games), but defied the stereotypes in many ways by being quite athletic despite being (and remaining in my late twenties) a string-bean freak of metabolic nature, and having an obsession with and vast knowledge of professional sports that is not normally associated with male geeks.

I was, however, very socially anxious regarding women, a fact which wasn’t helped by attending an all-male Catholic high school. Over time, I learned how to “pass off” as someone who at least could “act” like one of the cool kids even if I never really became popular in the conventional sense of the word. My inexperience and discomfort in associating with members of the opposite sex was heightened somewhat by my first sexual relationship, a disastrous protracted affair with an older woman when I was 18, and it took me years to overcome many of the byproducts of it. So I largely spent my college years retreating into my geekdom while still fighting it by doing things like joining a social fraternity.

Then, when I got out of college, I realized how much complete bullshit it was to give a crap how people perceived me. I knew I was a good person, and had plenty of friends, so what did it matter if I’m a geek? I think the older you get the more you not only realize that yourself, but realize that most people your age ultimately feel the same way. In a way, my current relationship with my girlfriend is an embodiment of both of the nonsensical stereotypes mentioned in this post. I am a geek who’s not supposed to be able to get “attractive” women, and my girlfriend is a gorgeous woman who also happens to be a committed feminist. I can’t help but chuckle at how much angst this all caused me when I was younger, and lacked the perspective just to be happy with who I am instead of trying to meet the “expectations” of society.

Comment #33: Epsilon82  on  06/10  at  04:55 PM

Catgirl,

That’s not what I’ve heard from plenty of college classmates, friends, and colleagues who attended mainstream US K-12 schools…whether public or private.  Some childhood friends who attended my zoned high school in NYC witnessed/experienced violent beatings because they were the “smart kids” and cousins and friends reported similar incidents in US public and private K-12 schools from all over the US.

Ok, I guess my schools weren’t an accurate representation of other schools.  I admit that there was bullying at my high school and middle schools, but it wasn’t a jocks vs. nerds things.  I got teased mercilessly because I was really bad at gym class.  Other people got teased for being poor, or getting bad grades, or wearing non-fashionable clothes.  There was occasionally some teasing about intelligence, but it was rare.  There was also some overlap of good athletes with straight-A students.  Jocks certainly didn’t rule my schools, partly because our teams weren’t very good any partly because my high school was so large that there was a huge diversity of student interests.  None of the cheerleaders in my high school were popular; most people viewed them as being cheerleaders only because they were desperately trying to become popular.  I guess I was just lucky to go to a school that didn’t have such a strong jock/nerd dichotomy and had hardly an violence.

I wonder if things have changed over time.  I was in high school from 1999-2003.  Maybe things were worse before I got there.

Comment #34: bananacat  on  06/10  at  04:56 PM

Half-assed theory: You need some homogeneity in your student body to have the classic nerd-jock divide.

It would be interesting to correlate this theory with the worst-case outcomes of that divide: school revenge shootings like Columbine. I’d suspect that small towns and exurbs are more common venues for these disasters.

Comment #35: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  04:57 PM

feh on the “I was a jock AND a nerd” folks. you meet people like this in grad school, where having been nerdy is sort of a badge of honor, and they want to lay retroactive claim to something they never were.

a little dabbling in D&D;or some math/science skills or a few oboe lessons doth not a nerd make. you had to suffer (and be your own worst enemy, of course).

Comment #36: wapsie  on  06/10  at  05:03 PM

Is there hope for change on the horizon, at least w/r/t smart women not necessarily being presumed out of existence?
I’m thinking of Kim Possible, the Powerpuff Girls, and Dr Jean Grey, among others.  But since I’ve never seen either of the cartoons, I don’t know how “smart” any of them are portrayed as being, or whether they’re shown as having to pay some kind of social price for letting their intellects show.

Kim Possible is basically an action hero—smart and athletic, but not brilliant. She gets technical support from Wade (who is Q to her Bond). The main social price she pays is not for any of that, but for maintaining her friendship (Platonic until season 4 when they begin dating) with Ron Stoppable. Ron is explicitly weird—he’s explicitly NOT very smart. (He is, however, unshakably loyal to Kim, brave when the chips are down, and a fabulous chef. He’s also quick enough from four seasons of dodging bad guys that he becomes a running back on the football team his senior year.)

It’s been awhile since I’ve seen the Powerpuff Girls, but as I recall Blossom is quite intelligent, and pays no social price for it. (Buttercup is the team’s heavy, and Bubbles acts younger than the other two.)

You see the same dynamic on other shows. You have women playing action hero types in Buffy and with Zoe on Firefly, Willow on Buffy, Kaylee on Firefly, and Fred on Angel are in technical support roles. Willow suffers socially for it, but none of the others do (Kaylee suffers socially from being poor, not intelligent.)

Similarly, Raven on Teen Titans is clearly one of the smarter members of the team.

In general, I’d say that you’re right with a caveat. The ideal woman presented on younger adventure shows is moving towards an ideal of being smart, athletic, and attractive. This is a HUGE step up from “eye candy for the male hero” or “muse for the great man” roles. So far, though, all these women are spectacularly, classically attractive. You don’t yet have female characters like Ron (who is too undermuscled to be classically handsome, but too gangly to manage bishonen).

Comment #37: Llelldorin  on  06/10  at  05:04 PM

I wonder if things have changed over time.  I was in high school from 1999-2003.  Maybe things were worse before I got there.

Though my experiences took place in the late 80s/early ‘90s….from what I heard from current undergrads at several universities…..not much has changed in the bullying of nerds/geeks from the time I graduated high school.  If anything, because of incidents like Columbine…..it actually got worse at some schools because of their administrations’ application of “zero tolerance” policies and the fact those administrations usually sided with the jocks/popular kids against the “nerds/geeks”.

Comment #38: exholt  on  06/10  at  05:05 PM

“(Kaylee suffers socially from being poor, not intelligent.)”

Kaylee is pretty clearly portrayed as having social consequences for being in a geeky, smart and masculine (technological) field, since she’s seen as ‘one of the guys’ rather than female. She complains about it frequently, and it was a point of identification b/w the character & a number of my more engineering oriented female friends.

Comment #39: Mandolin  on  06/10  at  05:18 PM

exholt: I don’t dispute that it exists in some schools or even a lot of them, but I dispute the characterization that this sort of hierarchy is the rule and that all the school experiences people have talked about here are the exception. We’ve got anecdotal evidence for schools where this does and doesn’t happen, and I’m not willing to wave away either one without more systematic evidence. (And considering how badly off-base many books about the state of school-age kids have been in the bast, I’m not willing to trust that the author presented here knows anything more definitive either, without seeing the evidence.)

Comment #40: Redshift  on  06/10  at  05:23 PM

I was in high school 1987-1991. I don’t remember any obvious “geek/jock” divide at my school. Possible mitigating factors:  Our football team was awful (2-8 record), and didn’t exactly form its own clique; the center was in my immediate circle of friends, for example. Because of that overlap, most of the students who would elsewhere be “nerds” actually tended to go to football games to cheer them on (literally, in one case—our salutatorian was our mascot). There were too many cliques overlapping by too much for the classic defective “jocks bullying nerds” social environment to make any sense.

I like the half-assed theory above. My school was absurdly heterogeneous, so it would have been very hard to separate out into “geek” and “jock” factions. It also had enormously large numbers of asian immigrants. Culturally they didn’t follow the “geek/jock” dichotomy at all—their parents expected them to be both.

Comment #41: Llelldorin  on  06/10  at  05:24 PM

I also wonder how much of the US K-12 teachers’/school administrators’ siding with the jocks/popular people was a combination of the fact most of them tended to be former nerds/geeks trying to “correct” their high school experiences, jocks/popular people themselves, and/or marginal students themselves back in the day considering even Ivy/Ivy-level Education grad schools tended to have far lower admission requirements than other grad schools on the same campus. 

I knew of one undergrad classmate with around a 2.7 GPA who was not only offered admission to 2 Ivy/Ivy-level Education Grad schools, but was also awarded substantial scholarships….and he was neither socio-economically nor racially disadvantaged and I’ve heard lots of dismissive comments about “lowered standards” and “scraping the bottom of the barrel” from grad students in other departments/programs about their counterparts in their campus’ Ed schools.

Comment #42: exholt  on  06/10  at  05:25 PM

I guess my view is colored by growing up in the mid-80s, where nerds actually got props in the movies, from 30-year-old freshman Robert Carradine to the ensemble cast of Buckaroo Banzai. And anyone who worried about the mutual exclusivity of hotness and science chops just need to look at young Val Kilmer or the lady cybertechnician from Robocop II. Hell, we even had black computer geeks! (Die Hard)

Comment #43: norbizness  on  06/10  at  05:29 PM

To clarify: Anderegg describes the nerd stereotype as being the most problem with middle school and even tween kids, who put conformity at a premium.  High school kids are beginning to grow out of it.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/10  at  05:33 PM

She complains about it frequently, and it was a point of identification b/w the character & a number of my more engineering oriented female friends.

When did this happen? She did end up in a circle of racer-boy types in “Shindig”, but as I recall at least one of the racer-boys her age was trying to gin up the courage to ask her for a date (and being peremptorily shushed by an older racer-type). Simon took forever to ask her out, but that was because he was profoundly socially clueless. (I do recall her complaining about Simon’s cluelessness.)

Comment #45: Llelldorin  on  06/10  at  05:33 PM

gracchus, i think you’re right re: homogeneity.  i went to a large public high school in an affluent suburb not unlike columbine (which happened my senior year incidentally) and it gave me chills in part because i could see the conditions ripe for such a thing to happen at my school too.  we had a bomb threat about once a week from columbine until the end of the school year. 

we had a pretty strong jock culture and that seemed to breed contempt for the less athletically inclined and/or “poor kids”, and god forbid if you were both of those things. 

i was never embarrassed about my intelligence until i was about ten, when i started to notice that it was maybe considered uncool to make good grades/be smart/etc, and i struggled for at least the next five years to be entirely comfortable with asserting my intellect in any way that would attract attention.  i was definitely a nerd in middle school, but thankfully i always had friends and at my high school, there were enough kids to form a sizeable “art freak” clique that could get by with only marginal abuse from the jock/popular crowd.

Comment #46: chareth cutestory  on  06/10  at  05:42 PM

In all the schools I went to, teachers rarely sided with the jocks or popular students.  From elementary school through high school, teachers always sided with the “teacher’s pets”, which were the students who behaved and got good grades.  In high school, many teachers were annoyed by the stereotypical “jocks”, because those students had to get a certain grade to be allowed to play, and there was more pressure on the teachers to help them succeed even if the student wasn’t interested.  Of course, there were plenty of jocks who got good grades at my school, but those students rarely got in trouble.

Comment #47: bananacat  on  06/10  at  05:51 PM

My view is closer to Amanda’s, probably because I grew up in the Football Belt of Texas, where anyone who wasn’t either a player, a cheerleader, or a sycophant to either of those groups was not only worthless, but an instant target for abuse. And don’t think for an instant that the average teacher will stand up for the downtrodden. Like the Washington pundit class, many grade school educators want to be the cool kids they never were in youth, and direct their discipline accordingly.

Interestingly, my friends who made it onto the right side of the “gifted” IQ test and were in separate classes from us plebes have an entirely different memory of school than I do. So I’m willing to allow for subjective experience. But I don’t think it’s terribly debatable that pop culture has defined being smart as also being socially inept, and therefore something to be avoided.

Comment #48: the matthew show  on  06/10  at  06:07 PM

There’s a conflation of different ideas here: nerd as introvert, nerd as Brainiac, nerd as teacher’s pet/suckup. I would say that a nerd is someone who prefers dealing with facts to dealing with people. Nerds often need socialization.

I don’t know how the girls’ world worked, other than I know there were cliques and outcasts Being a nerd and/or a good student didn’t penalize you. Nor did being an athlete hurt or help you.

Comment #49: Hector B.  on  06/10  at  06:15 PM

In my school it was by and large an introvert/extrovert divide. It just happens that most “nerds” fall in the introvert divide. The problem, at least in my community (it’s more than just a school thing, as the problem went from the feeder schools to the main high school), was that the extroverts were rewarded for being extroverted, and the introverts punished.

Which actually explains the higher grades thing. They had more confidence, as well as getting the benefit of the doubt in objective cases. Myself, I was both depending on who I was with, so I kinda got the worst of both worlds.

The other thing is that at least where I was from, there wasn’t enough geeks for there to really be a “geek chic’. I suspect that’s the case in most small towns. Now? I suspect it’s a totally different story, as the internet allows small marginalized social groups to create more of a shared identity.

Comment #50: Karmakin  on  06/10  at  06:15 PM

I just wanted to pop in and say my current partner is a super nerd and the best sex partner i’ve ever had!!! yum!!!

Comment #51: SweetT  on  06/10  at  06:18 PM

As far as I can tell, these all seem to fall into a few categories: there’s the desexualized scientist, sometimes in a wheelchair to drive home the point, there’s the “supermodel with a ponytail and glasses” nuclear physicist who falls for the cop/military officer, or the evil mad scientist whose obsessions and detachment from humanity will ruin the lives of everyone else (Dr. Baltar being, strangely, both the archetype of this while at the same time being the most charismatic, compelling portrayal).

Ghostbusters, especially as compared to Walter Peck.

Good call. Also, Dustin Hoffman and his scientific/medical staff in outbreak. Particularly when the antagonists are the military-industrial complex who just wants to wipe everything out and be done with the problem.

(As previously mentioned) Colonel Dr. Samantha Carter: recognized as being the smartest person on the show, and a highly competent military officer, and one of the sanest people around (she almost hits Mary Sue status).  Charles and Amita on Numb3rs.  Abby and McGee from NCIS (McGee, constantly being made fun of by Tony for being a prototypical computer nerd, drives and expensive sports car because he’s a best-selling author).  Going back further there was Quincy. 

Sam Neill and Laura Dern’s characters in the Jurassic Park franchise.  Pierce Brosnan in Dante’s Peak.  Indiana Jones.  Gordon Freeman, PhD (Asskicking); he even wears nerd glasses.  The crew from Mythbusters (where science is not only cool, it’s explodey).

In cartoons, North American ones aimed at kids, there are unquestionably smart characters who are heroes (and frequently get in on the action).  Oh sure quirks are played up, but if the series is played for comedy every character smart or not will have something about them so that doesn’t count.  Just off the top of my head: Velma Dinkley (Scooby-Doo), Dexter (Dexter’s Lab), Susan and Mary Test (admittedly, they do tend to do the odd thing for SCIENCE!).

There’s a lot of them out there.  The standard clichés of “scientist” are now almost the exceptions.

Comment #52: KeithM  on  06/10  at  06:48 PM

I’ve read this book- I don’t know about racism, but I can see bigotry.

I fall somewhere on the geek-nerd spectrum, but I have friends and no MySpace page, so I don’t think I’m a dork.  And I’m really sorry in advance if this offends everyone, but I think my experience there was something similar to the experience of someone who is gay.

I acted different.  I knew I was different.  I didn’t want to be the same as everyone else, even though they put me through hell for it.  My parents didn’t get it- Mom kind of understood a very little bit, but Dad, not until I started working.  And then I got to college, met other people like me, found a supportive environment, and I began on the path to being okay with who I was- and I can change that about as much as someone can change being gay.

Even today, where I live- okay, here’s an example.  Three of my co-workers and I were walking back from lunch, and one of them commented on a third co-worker’s bumper sticker- cthulufish, if you must know.  The other made a joke that you would only get if you played tabletop RPGs, two of us laughed, and the third looked at us like we were on crack.  I got an email from him, sent to the other co-worker and the guy with the bumper sticker asking us if we played.  Long story short, I’m DM for a True20 game for them next week.

Point of that story is, there’s at least three of us in my office alone that have learned what happens when we make it known who we are, and we keep quiet.  True, we (probably) won’t get beaten up for it anymore, but we know enough that it would reflect badly, and we’d never live it down.  So we keep quiet, communicate in a sort-of code, and take pains to keep it secret.

I dunno- maybe it’s just my malfunction.  But what conditioned me to feel I have to do this?

Comment #53: The Angry Geologist  on  06/10  at  07:04 PM

Heh, wapsie, I’ve said that I’m “nerdy” before, and gotten slapped down by people who don’t like seeing that term watered down for nerd pride reasons.  Apparently, I can claim to be geeky, but there’s nothing nerdy about me.  Even though I’m bookish and into politics.  Something essential to nerdiness apparently passed me by.

Comment #54: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/10  at  07:04 PM

Heh, wapsie, I’ve said that I’m “nerdy” before, and gotten slapped down by people who don’t like seeing that term watered down for nerd pride reasons.  Apparently, I can claim to be geeky, but there’s nothing nerdy about me.  Even though I’m bookish and into politics.  Something essential to nerdiness apparently passed me by.

Though there is a fair amount of variability involved in the terms “nerdy/geeky”, the impression I got in junior high and from a lot of people was that one had deep interests in intellectual pursuits and excelled at academics, especially in STEM fields.  Though that criteria applied in junior high, my McCain-level academic performance in high school precluded me from the honor of being “nerdy/geeky” in a high school full of hardcore STEM “nerds/geeks”. 

If the term nerd/geek was ever applied to me in the company of those who knew me in high school classmates, they’d ROTFLOL and feel that “waters down” the term into utter meaninglessness. 

Interestingly enough, undergrad was the first place where I found one can be a nerd/geek with pride…and not necessarily have strong aptitude or interest in STEM fields.  Quite refreshing…

Comment #55: exholt  on  06/10  at  07:29 PM

They routinely express surprise to me that they’re having sex in general, and with me in particular

Not surprising when you consider most of them probably spent their entire teenage years being told in a variety of ways (both explicit and implicit) that they were not only undesired by women but undesirable to them (and probably worthless in general)...

I’ve been there, shit sucks.

Comment #56: Devonian  on  06/10  at  07:31 PM

When I was growing up (in Rhodesia) the most cool kids were the ones who were able to walk to their own beat, and out of step with authority.  There was such a thing as a nerd, but it was based solely upon whether you wore glasses or not (but being bad at sports helped—if only for the boys).  Being good at sports was considered normal, so it didn’t seem to elevate your status much.

Comment #57: scratchy888  on  06/10  at  07:49 PM

Hey Amanda, did either author have anything to say about where class interacts with all this?  Cause I think if they didn’t, they missed something big.  In that, you can more or less do what you want if you are wealthy, but lower class kids have to walk a finer line, etc.

Comment #58: rowmyboat  on  06/10  at  08:18 PM

Amanda, I have not read the book, but I’d like to comment on your statement about David Anderegg’s focus on bigotry as a structural enabler of the nerd/jock phenomenon.  I just think that it’s really, really, easy to underestimate (even with all of the recent killings) just how ingrained anxiety about the perpetuation of white supremacy is.  I was doing a Sarah Connor Chronicles binge for the last three days, and I was getting upset at the (to me) thinly disguised and irrelevant fear of Toussaint L’Overture.  So I was cussing and muttering that white people can write *books* about the end of humanity or about coexisting with trans/post-humanity without it being all about Fear of a Black Planet.  TheeeEEEEEeeen, I start going, wait, really?  Started looking through my digital sci-fi selection.

I found brits:
Iain Banks
Ken Mcleod
Richard Morgan (thirteen)

Canadians:
Peter Watts
Karl Schroeder

Australians:
Greg Egan

Japanese:
Masamune Hiroe

US white females:
Nancy Kress
Melissa Scott
C J Cherryh
C S Friedman
Kathleen Ann Goonan
Chris Moriarty
Linda Nagata
and some others (some are pretty marginal, Audrey Niffenegger’s The Time Traveler’s Wife had a very threatening O Butler/Theodore Surgeon-type ending, for example—I think only a few people really got what happened)

US minorities:
Octavia Butler
Steven Barnes
Walter Mosely

It took a long time before I could figure out oldies like Alfred Bester and Theodore Sturgeon.

But of newer guys…
For the most part, it really came down to Vernor Vinge, and I think, Walter John Williams.  And Vinge is practically a Canadian already.  I *am* dismissing quite a bit of cyberpunk, because they tend to very much be about individual transhumanism and not really *societies*.

The 4400 is a very interesting show in this light, now that I think about this.
———
But to come closer to the point, I think that when you examine societies where slavery is/was a functional element like Sparta, or Brasil, or Nazi Germany, you tend to see a dichotomy with muscle and brains that you would not see in other societies.  Empathy is a fairly verbotten thing, and anti-intellectualism is most truly about anti-empathy.

Comment #59: shah8  on  06/10  at  09:05 PM

Smart women might be invisible in mainstream society, but within circles of whiny-ass nerd NiceGuys who are socially inept and can’t get laid, smart women with more than an absolute baseline level of attractiveness (ie, washes hair more than once a week) might be the most stalked people on the fucking planet.

There is a REASON my nerdiness mostly consists of the Internet and watching BSG in my room these days. I did the game club thing, I got on the game club eboard… I wear clothes that match, and I stopped going to nerd events within a year. It’s not like I’m even that awesome… but really, it only takes two or three people wandering uninvited into your dorm room and never leaving, or following you home at night, to feel like the entire subculture is on your ass. Luckily, every single other female nerd you have EVER met will ALSO have eight thousand IDENTICAL stories to share, so you can feel better by locking yourselves in a underground bomb shelter and being all sisterhoodly.

Comment #60: thecynicalromantic  on  06/10  at  09:06 PM

I think nerds (geeks less so) tend to be late bloomers, which means that in grade and high schools where social stuff is the basis of the pecking order, they kinda don’t compete. The ones who eventually learn something like social skills can be pretty good conversationalists because they’ve effing applied themselves to thinking about how people interact in ways that more conventional types haven’t. (Of course, that assumes they didn’t apply themselves to the completely wrong model of behavior and learn it inside out…)

The late-blooming geek/nerd also benefits enormously from a liberal social milieu where you’re not expected to marry early. If I’d married any of the women who showed interest in me before I (eventually) graduated from college, we both would have been making a terrible mistake.

Comment #61: paul  on  06/10  at  10:03 PM

I’m just curious, but does he factor in that this isn’t a universal?  I say that because I went through the normal Canadian school system (that is, public), and I’ve tended to find that the nerd/jock dichotomy doesn’t seem to exist nearly as strongly, if at all.

Agreed.  Despite having a strong focus on the First 15 (all hail the conquering rugby team!), I didn’t notice the same sort of dichotomy in high school in NZ the Americans here are mentioning.  Whether that’s because it didn’t exist or whether it came in after I left, I dunno.

Then again, I was practically schizophrenic through most of high school, so I may not have noticed.

Comment #62: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/10  at  10:13 PM

Agreed.  Despite having a strong focus on the First 15 (all hail the conquering rugby team!), I didn’t notice the same sort of dichotomy in high school in NZ the Americans here are mentioning.  Whether that’s because it didn’t exist or whether it came in after I left, I dunno.

My theory?  Sports scholarships.

I can’t speak for countries outside Canada and the US, but we don’t have them up here.  Now, there are a few very good athletes who get recruited by US colleges, but they are comparatively rare (they usually end up representing Canada at the Olympics or other international competition), so that by and large there isn’t an expectation that an athlete in a Canadian school is going to be getting a free ride through university, or get to university based on the sport alone.

Associated with that is the fact that college athletics in other countries aren’t the monster industry (in the financial sense) that they are in the US.  So you’ve got where being a good jock can get you a ride to a college where there’s big money in what you do, for other people if not yourself.

And I think there’s some evidence of that: when you think of the stereotypical American high school jock, enemy of nerds everywhere as portrayed in countless TV shows and film and cartoons and whatnot, what sport is the first one to come to mind?

I’ll bet that 9 times out of 10, it’s (American) football.

For other major sports (except basketball), universities are not the minor leagues and training grounds, because there are actual minor leagues.  The sport is decoupled from the academic institution, and all the stuff that comes with it.  College baseball isn’t big money, nor is college hockey.  Who puts big money on the NCAA baseball or hockey, or track and field championship?  When did you ever see a TV show about the drama around a high school swimming team?

Football players (and to a lesser extent, basketball), well, they get treated special because what they do is something a large amount of people care passionately (and bet large sums of money) about.

Comment #63: KeithM  on  06/11  at  12:10 AM

It’s not just the college scholarships. Some/many high schools take their sports very seriously either as moneymakers (for someone, not necessarily the school) or as focal points for the community or as ego boosts for the faculty and administrators involved. My father-in-law could still tell you the names of guys he played high school football against almost 50 years earlier.

Comment #64: paul  on  06/11  at  12:20 AM

Smart women might be invisible in mainstream society, but within circles of whiny-ass nerd NiceGuys who are socially inept and can’t get laid, smart women with more than an absolute baseline level of attractiveness (ie, washes hair more than once a week) might be the most stalked people on the fucking planet.

This.  It gets better as you learn to spot the nerds who’ve had time to become well-adjusted (and, really, once the nerds you know have had that crucial time).  But I’ve never seen any guy nurse so desperate a crush for so long a time but a huge nerd.  The ones who aren’t so well-adjusted can be truly scary.

Case in point: what have I done to end up, by age 19 (I’m 22 now), with two separate exes against whom I’ve been counseled to seek restraining orders?  Apparently, possess both a love of research and the ability to wash myself.  Show some interest, and apparently they’re convinced that no one else ever will, and that they’ve got to keep you around by, say, mailing you threatening collages made from comic books.

Comment #65: themmases  on  06/11  at  12:29 AM

I don’t think sports scholarships are all *that* key, since girls who play a sport well tends to be a genuine student-athlete.  At my high school, the guys who actually were very good at sports weren’t menaces to high school societies.  I don’t know about you guys, but the “jocks” has always been the frat boys and the preppies, and always will be them.  The key being too much time on their hands.  Real jocks are busy at their crafts.  I think the football team might be an exception because that sport requires so many players, and thus, it encourages a higher tolerance for public assholes than otherwise might be the case.  And then there’s the whole gladitorial aspects.  Neh, I never had trouble with the football team, or any other jock-type.  I was pretty much the best athlete not on a team sport by a very long shot (because of my hearing), so I was always a poor target for bullying.  So take my musings with a grain of salt.

Comment #66: shah8  on  06/11  at  12:53 AM

And thecynicalromantic, themmases?  Plz feel free to shoot those nerds.  The fewer of that type out there, the better shot I got at a geek princess who’ll appreciate by bouggie ass.

Tho’ I might have the teensiest bit of appreciation for the no hope thing.  Geeky black girls hide, and you never knew they could hack an Access database until they’re over the horizon.

Comment #67: shah8  on  06/11  at  12:57 AM

What high schools did all ya’ll go to in the US where geeks and nerds weren’t scum of the earth?

I envy you.

When I was in high school, 1990-1994, I was constantly harassed, threatened, bullied, hectored and terrorized for being a geek, nerd, etc., and so were all my (few) friends.

Of course, I grew up in rural North Florida, so maybe that had something to do with it, but I think also perhaps a lot of these people claiming to be geeks really were not, and thus didn’t get to experience a lot of the “fun” that my friends and I did.

Comment #68: quoderat  on  06/11  at  01:01 AM

My career in the sciences will be pried from my cold, dead hands. I will never ever never ever never be a stay at home mom. There is definitely a trend of women getting Ph.Ds and then dropping out of the field.

Yes, I’m a nerd. I’m on the entomology quiz bowl team for my university. I have seen every episode of TNG, DS9, and Voyager. I have an unhealthily large collection of science fiction. I’ve been a hardcore raider in WoW. I met my husband playing D&D;. I dressed up for Halloween as a Desolation Angel from Magic: The Gathering. I’ve found that this and also not being hideously deformed meant that I had no trouble snagging nerdy boys. Which are the kind I like.

Comment #69: Entomologista  on  06/11  at  01:48 AM

What high schools did all ya’ll go to in the US where geeks and nerds weren’t scum of the earth?

I envy you.

Chicago suburbs.  Actually, they were a pretty horrible place to be a smart person (as, I imagine, all generally high-performing high schools may be).  My public school was large and competitive enough that there were at least 30 kids in my class of 650 belonging to the type that takes gym pass/fail.  Actually, a friend of mine who was more involved with those kids than I was attempted suicide largely because of it.

Whether those kids could rightly be called nerds, I couldn’t say.  It was obvious that most of them got most of their validation through one-upping other smart kids, since my friend was routinely asked if she got a 96 on, say, a chem exam because the questioner had a 97.  People literally gossiped about the talents of others, even if they didn’t attend classes with that person to compete with him or her directly.  Overall, I’d call it pretty toxic and am glad that I had a clear enough idea of my own academic interests that I felt no need to take AP Chem as an aspiring historian.

On the other hand, I had the option to take what I wanted with the smart kids and check out of that culture when I wanted.  The rest of the student body was, in my experience and according to what I’ve heard from teachers and administrators, notably non-cliquish even compared to other classes within our own school.  The smart kids were actually the most destructive.  But I’ve gotten the impression that’s not typical and since I came from upper middle-class, mostly-white public schools, that doesn’t really surprise me.

Comment #70: themmases  on  06/11  at  02:49 AM

The whole nerd/geek/dork/weird (did I get ‘em all?) dynamic wasn’t a hassle for me as a girl in high school. I ran with a couple of different packs of weirdos, so I wasn’t so strange all by my lonesome.

Twenty years later, though, as I chase an EE degree looooong after high school, I’m finding the “only chick” thing to be a bitch. To be perfectly honest, it’s probably self-imposed, but I don’t think it’s possible for me to sit in a room of 20+ people, look around and *not* notice that I’m the only woman, the only black person, and the only queer in the room. It’s freakin’ *weird*.  I can certainly find other geeks to hang with, but I can count the number of my friends who fall into this category on one hand with three fingers taped down.

I guess that’s why I find books like “She’s Such A Geek” to be so damned important, yet I find myself disappointed with every “left the field to tend to my family” story. Jesus, are you at least hacking on your own time? One doesn’t need to be an academician to explore the sciences, or a working engineer to hack or build things. That book has been on my shelf for almost a year and I haven’t been able to finish it for just that reason. (Yes, I will finish it promptly to make sure my complaint is justified.)

Comment #71: ubergeeke  on  06/11  at  04:05 AM

Show some interest, and apparently they’re convinced that no one else ever will,

I’d imagine most of them sincerely believe that. It goes back to the thing I mentioned earlier, I think. Friendly attention from a girl is like manna from Heaven, and about as common, when you’re socially inept and introverted…

Needless to say, I’ve been there. I literally thought that very thing about my ex, and still haven’t really shaken it (the whole thing turned out really, really badly)...

Comment #72: Devonian  on  06/11  at  05:05 AM

Entomologista: My career in the sciences will be pried from my cold, dead hands.

By a CSI technician?

Comment #73: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/11  at  05:16 AM

I always found that being a geek in the social sense—being into science fiction, fantasy, gaming—made me far more visible in certain melieus. I think it was very exciting to learn that in the settings of fan clubs, conventions, and comic book stores, my social status was instantly many notches higher than in the non-geek world. So, perhaps not in geek work settings, but in geek social settings, a female geek’s visibility is high (at least if she’s youngish). Embarrassingly high for many geek girls, and one learns ways to deal with it.
And for those who aren’t strictly heterosexual, it has also been at science fiction conventions where I’ve been most often had flirtatious approaches from other women. There are often panels on sexuality; sci-fi conventions, at east in California, are deliberately welcoming to diversity.

But at school, I would say I was picked on as a nerd largely because I was not class privileged. Girls in the same classes as me, getting the same kind of grades, didn’t get the same bullying I did… if their parents had money. The “popular” elite at my schools had both good grades and money. Social skills mattered, too, but money could paper over a lot of etiquette lapses or shyness.

Comment #74: Samantha Vimes  on  06/11  at  08:01 AM

I wouldn’t say that the nerd depends on the existence of the jock to exist so much as those who are adept at finding social success depend on those who aren’t to exist.

This. Like Amanda said, it’s all about sex really - and who is or isn’t getting it. So there’s some sort of divide in every teenage society along the lines of boys who are getting, or are seen to have access to, girls, and those who don’t. The specific markers that code for those perceptions (brains, money, fitness, creativity/originality etc.) are different in different places and at different times, depending on the other cultural factors at play. (And of course, importantly, quite often the markers code for the status but are not a true reflection of sexual prowess/activity)

I think the reason it’s so much more complicated for girls is that there’s a double stratification going on: there’s a hierarchy of male attention, but then there’s also the hieararchy of female sexuality. In other words, you can be a popular good girl, a popular bad girl (rare), and unpopular good girl or an unpopular bad girl (also rare, and the bottom of the social scale in any school).

Add brains into the mix and it all falls apart though - teenage society is all about conformity with differentiation, and in order for that to work the differentiation needs to be really clear cut. Once you transgress one or more of the dividing lines and stop fitting your group’s set of labels, you’re ejected from the hierarchy wholesale; which is what I think female geek “invisibility” is often about.

Smart women might be invisible in mainstream society, but within circles of whiny-ass nerd NiceGuys who are socially inept and can’t get laid, smart women with more than an absolute baseline level of attractiveness (ie, washes hair more than once a week) might be the most stalked people on the fucking planet.

Agree - but with the corollary that while smart women may be invisible in mainstream society, good looking women are inaudible in geek society.

In practice, if you are a genuinely good looking woman (i.e. beyond the ‘meeting basic hyegene standards’ level) what you gain in male attention by joining a geek crowd, you risk losing in intellectual respect. They seem to find it harder to believe that a woman who is attractive could possibly be intelligent.

It goes back to the clear cut differentiation principle; you can be a stupid beauty or an ugly Betty with brains. Anything more complex screws with people’s heads.

Comment #75: MarinaS  on  06/11  at  08:25 AM

My career in the sciences will be pried from my cold, dead hands. I will never ever never ever never be a stay at home mom. There is definitely a trend of women getting Ph.Ds and then dropping out of the field.

I see where you’re coming from, and I used to get indignant/depressed when I saw this happening, sometimes to some of the best minds I knew. The truth is, however, that science is a tough, tough field, and it’s not that hard to find yourself in a complete career dead-end, and I can understand how someone might simply say, “screw it, this isn’t worth the cost of my time and my psyche.” I know others who’ve quit the field for careers in finance, technology transfer, or patent law, and that’s a viable option, too.

I guess what I’m saying is that the determination and focus you’re showing is a great thing, but don’t judge people who came through the other side of the Ph.D. process and made a different decision, because from a certain perspective, those decisions were totally reasonable.

Comment #76: Tyro  on  06/11  at  11:13 AM

Tyro:

Another way of saying that is that a career in “the sciences” ain’t necessarily a career doing science. Lotsa grunts filling out the ranks. Smart, frustrated grunts.

Comment #77: paul  on  06/11  at  11:49 AM

College baseball isn’t big money…

Whatever you’re taking, stop….soon.

Comment #78: Magis  on  06/11  at  12:19 PM

“It would be interesting to correlate this theory with the worst-case outcomes of that divide: school revenge shootings like Columbine. I’d suspect that small towns and exurbs are more common venues for these disasters.”

A derail, but Columbine wasn’t a school revenge shooting in anyway. Google Dave Cullen, who’s researched the shit out of it for a new book.

“feh on the “I was a jock AND a nerd” folks. you meet people like this in grad school, where having been nerdy is sort of a badge of honor, and they want to lay retroactive claim to something they never were.”

Fine wapsie, but I was unpopular, got good grades and played high school football, because I was big and athletic enough to play offensive line pretty well. Playing football probably eased my unpopularity, but tiny schools in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan sure weren’t “Friday Night Lights.” (And, yes, I was hoping that something like ‘I play football, so girls will like me’ would happen, but it didn’t because I was still an awkward teenage boy. Collisions were pretty fun, though)

I hung with sorta a “Freaks and Geeks” crowd, which included kids from the nerd end and the poor, gearhead, and metalhead ends. (Those obviously overlapped) We were pretty shitty, honestly, about kicking down to each other and anyone lower than us.

Comment #79: witless chum  on  06/11  at  12:45 PM

What high schools did all ya’ll go to in the US where geeks and nerds weren’t scum of the earth?
I envy you.

Los Angeles suburbs here. Again, it’s hard to set up “jocks v. nerds” when the school is something like 40% asian immigrants—the trope is very US-specific.

Others have also speculated that the trope is more common in poorer areas, which may also be.

Comment #80: Llelldorin  on  06/11  at  01:23 PM

What high schools did all ya’ll go to in the US where geeks and nerds weren’t scum of the earth?

I envy you.

When I was in high school, 1990-1994, I was constantly harassed, threatened, bullied, hectored and terrorized for being a geek, nerd, etc., and so were all my (few) friends.

Your account of your high school experience is similar to the countless ones I’ve heard from college classmates, friends, relatives, and colleagues who attended mainstream K-12 public and private schools from all over the US.  It also mirrored my junior high school experience…though I only had to ensure 2 years of that and it ended on a high note as I gained admission to a few highly competitive urban public magnet high school and managed to win the last schoolyard fights against my bullies. 

Grew up in a formerly working-class NYC neighborhood and attended the same math & science public urban magnet high school as one of the Pandagonian bloggers during the early-mid-1990s.  I didn’t experience or witness any nerd/geek hate as they were the IN group.  If anything, the math and science teams were lionized and most among us actually made fun of anyone who fit the “jock” stereotype and/or anyone who couldn’t meet the perceived academic norms (i.e. One was considered a “retard” if their Pre-1995 SATs were below 1350/1600 as it was expected that we’d at least make the high 1300s or 1400s). 

Speaking of race and class, a little more than half of my high school was Asian/Asian-American when I attended and most of my classmates came from working class/low-middle class families with many who were immigrants/first generation Americans.  Though there were a few socio-economically privileged kids whose families would have normally sent them to private schools, they didn’t really start to come in great numbers until the last year of my time there. 

Even so…I’ve encountered plenty of socio-economically privileged kids and parents who ended up attending private schools because they were rejected by my school and/or they felt it was “too competitive” for their “darling” child(ren).

Comment #81: exholt  on  06/11  at  01:35 PM

a little more than half of my high school was Asian/Asian-American

Stereotypically, doesn’t that mean nerds made up at least half your high school?

I don’t know if the nerd-jock dichotomy exists outside of majority white schools.

Comment #82: Hector B.  on  06/11  at  02:00 PM

witless:

part of what motivated my “feh” comment was my own experience as an nerd-athlete—running cross country, indoor & outdoor track

to be sure, these are sports that don’t have a lot of jock cred attached to them, like football often does

cross country may actually ADD to your nerd quotient; when all gathered, my CC team’s general blinding dweebishness could be seen from space, despite the insane killer work-outs our coach mostly left us unwisely to devise for ourselves

the saving grace of all that running, and one of the few things I remember fondly about high school: I got far more in the way of basic decency and respect from the ghetto kids on the track team than I ever got from my rich, white, academically-accelerated peers—and despite the fact that I kind of sucked as a runner.  Showing up every day and working hard really mattered as it hasn’t ever really in my adult life. I felt the least harassed and ignored among the people I was supposed to avoid.

the jock-n-nerd claimants I was bitching about were people who were rather privileged and never really unpopular

Comment #83: wapsie  on  06/11  at  02:55 PM

This is interesting. I think the social hierarchy at my middle and high schools were EXTREME (I am not kidding, I was called “genius” as an INSULT and told that’s why I had no friends), and yes, it was 99.9% white. The money hierarchy was there, the jock hierarchy was there—even in the advanced placement classes and in band I was too nerdy to be accepted. I did hang out with the stoner crowd, though, I think when you’re at a certain level of social unacceptability for any reason you’re more likely to get along with the “undesirables” than all others.

I wonder if some people who don’t think this existed at their schools just weren’t affected by it—I’m not sure if the “hierarchy” is that visible to people in the middle. If you’re not on the top or bottom of it you may not even notice the dynamic where the most popular lived to make the lives of the least popular completely miserable. I could see someone from my middle and high schools thinking there was no hierarchy because they were in the middle so to speak and weren’t made suicidal by it every day.

I also do think it was much, much worse in middle school than in high school for sure.

Now I really wish I had been born in Canada or Asia. :(

Comment #84: Geekasaurus  on  06/11  at  03:20 PM

Stereotypically, doesn’t that mean nerds made up at least half your high school?

I don’t know if the nerd-jock dichotomy exists outside of majority white schools.

We had people who would superficially fit the jock stereotype in high school, but that caused one to be picked on for “not having one’s priorities straight” and being suspected of being marginal academically and intellectually. 

What little of that dichotomy existed at my high school was inverted in relation to mainstream US schools…..it was the nerds/geeks who were the “cool crowd” and jocks who had to work hard to gain their approval….or at least avoid being picked on for “misplaced priorities” or “not being smart”.  Even so, the level of bullying which existed at my high school was much tamer on the physical violence front than the countless stories I heard from others about their experiences at mainstream US K-12 schools. 

Then again, that was made up somewhat by the verbal bullying/labeling on the basis of one’s grades, SATs, ability to gain admission to Ivy/Ivy-level schools, and not being “nerdy/geeky” enough.  I still wonder how an older high school classmate who was a “jock” in many ways survived four years there considering he has been terrified of being around computers in a school where having such attitudes would immediately prompt derisive ridicule and verbal bullying.

Comment #85: exholt  on  06/11  at  03:23 PM

Amanda:

Anderegg is way to quick to compare anti-nerd stereotypes to bigotry, particularly racism, which bothered me since the stereotype of the nerd so very often gets attached to people who are relatively privileged people, even if they weren’t popular in middle school.

I think you’re too quick to dismiss this. As I know you already know (because honestly, I think I learned it from you!), having one type of privilege doesn’t protect you against other types of discrimination. Certainly a lot of the same language applies:

-harassment (including physical)
-being “The Other,” especially feeling like in the eyes of everyone else, my nerdiness made me a non-person. (And yes, sex played a big part in this.)
-most damaging of all, internalizing the viewpoint of my ‘oppressor’, especially feeling great buckets of shame for my preferences, and for who I was/am

You can say that my experiences were cushioned by my other privileges (white, male) and that’s true, but the difference is more of degree than kind.

Comment #86: MH  on  06/11  at  04:49 PM

I went to high school here in Red California from 1973-1977, and aside from one guy who use to bully me , I didn’t have any problems with the jocks, and neither did any of my friends at the time.

Of course, there were divisions, when you consider the Hispanic/Mexican population was 20% at the time, and the conflict between them and the white kids or “goat ropers”, but that didn’t affect anyone who was of neither category much.  A few years later, a conflict that involved the principal getting hit in a scuffle drew the administrations attention to the problem, which was then brought under control.

Comment #87: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/11  at  05:33 PM

“cross country may actually ADD to your nerd quotient; when all gathered, my CC team’s general blinding dweebishness could be seen from space, despite the insane killer work-outs our coach mostly left us unwisely to devise for ourselves.”

Hmmm. My school was too small to even have cross country, or it just wasn’t done up there. An ex of mine who I first met at a nerdish camp (Summer Institute for the Arts and Sciences!) during high school did though.

Comment #88: witless chum  on  06/12  at  12:33 PM

I find it interesting that one of the things commonly associated with nerd/geeks is comic books, a genre which is often founded on anti-intellectualism.  A consistent theme is that of the superhero (jock) using brute force to defeat the intellectually superior villain.

Comment #89: josesanders  on  06/12  at  03:14 PM

In addition to what someone said above about academic skill being valued in China, I’ve also read that the Chinese value quiet, shy students more than Americans do. As an introverted person, the idea of actually being valued FOR those traits kind of blows my mind.

I like what someone else said about viewing ourselves through the eyes of the oppressor. It’s a very hard thing to get away from sometimes. I have this idea that it’s “realistic” to evaluate myself as strangers in general might, and since I’m not a geek, nerd, or jock, just an odd-looking, quiet woman, I pretty much feel like an invisible non-person….

Comment #90: annejumps  on  06/12  at  06:40 PM

Now I really wish I had been born in Canada or Asia. :(

Regarding Asia, it isn’t all bliss…even for those who excel academically.  On the one hand, excelling at academics is much more highly valued and prized among peers and society.  On the other, academic expectations are far higher than in the US, especially in math and writing. 

Most college-bound students would have completed calculus by the end of junior high or early high school at the latest and anyone who needed “remedial writing” courses to write a coherent sentence, paragraph, or essay would have been precluded from attending college altogether. 

College admissions competition in Asian countries like China and those influenced by Confucian norms is so cutthroat that it would make even the Ivy/Ivy-level-centered US college admissions process look like a cakewalk in comparison.  In China, over 50% of university applicants who took the national college entrance exam failed to gain admission to ANY institution.  In Taiwan, only around 2/3 of all university applicants managed to gain admission to any institution as of the mid-2000s.  And keep in mind these applicants are taken from a pool of those who managed to secure admission to attend academic/college-prep type high schools. 

In addition to what someone said above about academic skill being valued in China, I’ve also read that the Chinese value quiet, shy students more than Americans do. As an introverted person, the idea of actually being valued FOR those traits kind of blows my mind.

A large part of this is due to Confucian hierarchical norms where the student’s place due to his/her lack of knowledge and experience in relation to his/her teacher is effectively to sit down, shut up, and take notes/complete class exercises assigned by instructor.  Such a system tends to favor students who are shy quiet types as they are often seen as more compliant and conforming and anyone who deviates from this by raising questions or worse during lecture are usually sanctioned by the educational system and society as a whole.  From what I heard from my parents, older relations, and current undergrad/grad students from various Asian countries, this tendency continues into the universities…though a few Profs are starting to make an effort to encourage more student classroom participation/interaction. 

One unfortunate side-effect of this tendency is that creativity and open discussion of subjects are strongly discouraged which ends up causing adjustment issues with students from such systems when they come to the US for college/grad school and find themselves in classes where asking questions during lecture and classroom participation is not only encouraged, but expected as doing so was strongly discouraged in their previous educational experiences.

Comment #91: exholt  on  06/13  at  01:05 AM

Ah, exholt, that makes sense. I was just so taken with the idea of being valued for that that I didn’t really think about it much beyond the surface.

Comment #92: annejumps  on  06/13  at  09:37 AM

I should also mention that most of the Confucian influenced educational systems like the ones in China, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan are also extremely high stakes with few, if any second chances if one merely stumbles or worse, fucks up at any point along the way. 

One Japanese classmate personified this as he had to come to the US to get a second chance in order to attend high school and college because he was involved in a school fight in 7th grade. 

That caused him to be blacklisted by all the academic junior high schools despite his expressing contrition to the authorities and demonstrated academic performance which prevented him from attending an academic high school necessary to become eligible to take the national college exam.  After a few years of working odd jobs, he was fortunate to find a benefactor who took the initiative to send and pay for his high school and college expenses so he could have the very second chance the Japanese education system effectively denied him. 

This is also the reason many Chinese and other Asian Ivy/Ivy-level grad students who attended topflight undergrads back in their home countries look upon their undergrad campus counterparts with some contempt as even Ivy/Ivy-level US undergrad admissions is considered far easier than taking their home countries’ national college entrance exams. 

The fact this option is often only available to children of wealthy families who can pay full tuition adds to the feeling that this is the backdoor route to college prestige for wealthy mediocre college applicants who otherwise would have had to content themselves with attending a third or fourth-tier Chinese university…assuming they were able to score high enough to gain admission to any institution. 

To those grad students, the “proper path” is to attend a topflight undergrad in their home countries and go abroad for grad school.  To be fair, every one of those grad students attended undergrad at Peking, Tsinghua, or Renmin Universities…..their equivalents of Harvard, MIT, and other Ivy/Ivy-level schools respectively.

Comment #93: exholt  on  06/13  at  12:47 PM
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