There are other legal problems that arise out of it, as well, when you start getting into torts.

I’m guessing the answers to a lot of those questions given the prevailing points of view from anti-choicers are both obvious and scary. But it’s likely they would prefer to avoid addressing them before legislation is passed, and then regulate “unintended”, but actually intended, scenarios that result afterwards. For instance, they probably would push for a tax credit for fertilized eggs.

I asked those same questions when amendment 48 made it to the ballot here in Colorado. I was actually proud that so many people voted no (myself included, of course) to it, even in El Paso county, where the whole mess started. As someone who has fertility issues, I worried this would effect egg and embryo donations. A bigger concern was what would happen to women who have miscarriages. I worried that something sad and private would suddenly become public and scandalous.

Will miscarriages have to be ruled either “accidental manslaughter” or “acts of God” and if so, can you buy an insurance policy for them? Will you need to register your Kotex as a crime scene and send it to the CSI department every month?

The absurdity just piles up higher and higher. Actually, I feel a bit hopeful about these, because they suck away conservative money on causes already proven not to succeed. 

And this one splits conservatives, who want to stop abortion, but *not* in-vitro—they want to be able to have lots of babies even if God gave them defective equipment. This has always been a huge hypocrisy that they’ve been able to sidestep, but if they really are serious about fertilized eggs, then in-vitro (and some other fertility treatments) goes too. And I can’t see them being willing to do that, on a large scale. Slutty single women is one thing, Sue-Ann not getting to have her baby is another entirely.

To a certain degree, many of these questions are trivial and silly.
Use of an HOV lane?  Really?  I mean, this is the best you’ve got?  And that bit about hypothetical contraception abortion is equally absurd if only because it would be impossible to detect or enforce.

That said, I can definitely see anti-taxers using “fetus as a person” laws to claim additional tax credits, even going so far as to claim miscarriages so they can pick up an extra grand or two (oh, yeah, I was about to have twins but it didn’t happen, same as the last 5 years).  That would be an interesting legal question.  Likewise, is the unborn child eligible for child support or food stamps?  Social Security benefits?  Medicare?  Medicaid?  How about hate crime legislation?  Scholarships? 

But there are much more significant legal issues that have already arisen.  If a pregnant woman is killed in a car accident, how many people died and how much is the insurance company libel for?  If a pregnant woman gets mugged and miscarries, is the mugger now up for manslaughter charges?  Does this new law change how people’s ages are calculated?  What’s a negative 3 month old child?  If a pregnant woman leaves the country without the consent of her husband, is she kidnapping the child?  Does the husband need to make child support payments before the child is born?  Can an unborn child own or inherit property?  Can it be taxed?  Does it need a passport?  Are you a US Citizen if you are conceived in the United States but born abroad? 

And, of course, there are all sorts of health issues that do raise interesting legal questions.  Can a pregnant woman legally drink or smoke?  Can she legally eat high cholesterol foods?  I do think you’ve already mentioned these.  And I can guess how this could get very silly or very serious depending.

But it then begs a very, very serious question of how a woman is supposed to KNOW she is pregnant.  If you are six months pregnant and don’t know it, what is the legal status of your unborn child?  Should we have mandatory pregnancy tests?  Should pregnancy be a matter of public record?  What would be the punishment for concealing a pregnancy?  What about ectopic pregnancies?

Yeah, this could get really, really ridiculous in a very quick manner.  To which I say - bring it on.  I would absolutely love to see some dirtwater state get hit with wave upon wave of sticky legal questions just so I can watch judges and DAs tremble in fear at this bold new legal frontier.  Watching a Republican state bog down its legal system would bring joy to my heart. 

I can absolutely see this turning into a nightmare, Pam.  I just think you can do better than HOV lanes.

I wonder about representation.  Perhaps liberals in blue states could could engage in massive amounts of unprotected sex during the 2010 census so we can increase Democratic share of the House of Representatives.

Oh man, I didn’t even think about that.
“Yes Mr Census taker.  Our family has four grandparents, two parents, two minor, three young adults and 684,391 frozen embryos in a fridge in our basement.  We would like our own Congressman, please.”

If a fetus has the same rights as a born child, then I have the same rights vis-a-vis it; I can give it up for adoption or dump it in foster care.

Where are the right-wing women lining up to become adoptive mothers of my blastocyst? Come on, girls, *one* of you must be willing to be cut open so my embryo can be implanted in your body…

I mean, the only way to give a fetus up for adoption without killing it would be to surgically remove it and implant it in another woman. So where are the willing pro-lifers signing up for fetal adoption?

Oh, wait, we can’t technologically do that yet? Well then, FETUSES CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS BABIES, because parents have rights with babies that apparently can’t be implemented with fetuses yet. If I don’t have the same rights in regard to someone as I do to someone else, they don’t have the same rights in regard to me as that someone else does. Rights are reciprocal.

Work on artificial wombs or male pregnancy or fetal extraction-and-reimplantation without harm, assholes, and when you have one of those things working reliably *then* maybe you can have fetuses having the same rights as people. But wait, none of you could possibly work in medical science, because you don’t believe in basic biological facts like evolution and “birth control pills do not cause abortion”. The best any of you can manage is to squeak by in med school or become pharmacists; you can’t actually do *science*. And besides, to you the fact that a person could live inside a female person and control her behavior is a feature, not a bug.

If a fertilized egg is a legal person, when is your legal birthdate?

If a foreign visitor or illegal immigrant gets pregnant here and then returns home before giving birth, the baby would have to be an American citizen since it was a legal person at the moment of conception.  Gives a whole new meaning to “anchor baby,” doesn’t it?

My first question when I heard about this nonsense was, “What crimes is the new ‘person’ guilty of?” 

If the woman does not offer to give nutrients willingly to this new person, is it not stealing?  If the woman does not want this person in her home, is it not trespassing?  If I stuck a tube in an unwilling woman and started draining blood from her, I would certainly be guilty of something, in fact I am pretty sure that the cops would come and make me stop, so can we expect the same treatment towards these fetal-American squatters?

What are the 17 states?

Should we have mandatory pregnancy tests?

It wouldn’t do any good—pregnancy tests don’t detect a fertilized egg.  You can only detect a pregnancy at implantation (which is when, medically, a pregnancy begins).

That’s my other question—what is the enforcement mechanism to find out if a woman’s egg has been fertilized?  Do you have to report to your gynecologist after every unprotected sex act so s/he can microscopically examine your fallopian tubes?  How are they going to get the microscope up there, anyway?  Do we even have the technology to make a camera that small?

I’ve wondered how miscarriages (which happen in about 20% of pregnancies) would be dealt with, too.  Would women be required to notify the government when they g0t a positive pregnancy test result or whenever they suspected they were late?  Would you have to call in a coroner whenever you had a miscarriage?  Hopefully enough people realize the lunacy of all this.

From a post I wrote ages ago:

“Come, let us consider the 14th Amendment, section 1, first sentence - “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”  Fertilised eggs aren’t born yet.  So what happens then?  Are they immigrants until they’re born?  Will the mothers have to get special pre-birth visas for their unborn babies?”

Fetuses are clearly illegal immigrants. Someone alert Lou Dobbs!

Goat —In Virginia a few years ago, we had a state legislator who introduced a bill requiring women to report miscarriages to the police as “fetal deaths” within twelve hours. (You can still read all about it here.) It unleashed a firestorm of outrage when it was publicized by my good friend blogger Maura Keaney (most recently campaign manager for the victorious Jim Himes in CT, yay!) and it was withdrawn.

So I think that may answer your question both for the anti-choice wingnuts and the general public: Yes, absolutely the wingnuts intend to go there, it’s not something they’re shy about. And yes, the general public easily realizes the lunacy of it.

Pregnant women have already claimed to be eligible for the HOV lane in California, Phoenix, and Seattle, so it’s not as far-fetched as you might think.

Redshift, thanks for they info.  I just moved to VA several months ago (Falwell territory) and am still coming to understand the particular brand of crazy around here.  However, if the election is any indication it appears that this is starting to change (fingers crossed for Pariello to hold on and win).

Anti-gay-marriage ballot measures may be winners for the wingnuts, but anti-abortion measures are losers. Always. Consistently.

Good luck surviving down there, Goat. I’m keeping my hopes up for Perriello, too, and Northern Virginia is going to keep riding to the rescue and shifting the state blue. I can’t wait for next year, when we turn the new Obama machine on the statewide races (governor, etc.)

Also, if you haven’t discovered him already, I highly recommend reading Waldo Jaquith‘s blog. He’s in Charlottesville, but knows a lot more about the downstate areas than someone from “communist country” like me.

I have devoted my life to the protection of the undead.  I believe that life begins BEFORE conception and will do what I can to advance legislation that will classify male masterbation as murder (you ladies are free to do as you will) and nocturnal emmissions as involuntary manslaughter. Menstruation will be outlawed and regulated, monitored by official jack-booted thugs.  Get with the program DEMONcraps.

No spontaneous ejaculations or sperm anywhere but in a vagina with a ripened egg waiting or unconsummated releasing of eggs ALL MURDER if you carry this thinking to it’s logical extreme.
Will the police be checking every young women to see if she has had a period because by god thats grounds for murder.

Does this mean the drinking age is now 20 years, 3 months?

this failed in CO and a majority of anti-choice groups were not supportive of this type of legislative attack at this time.  They knew their chance at success was tied to a win at the state level and a challenge going to a conservative christian stacked SCOTUS.  Understand that a lot of people who have fertility issues support anti-choice causes but this legislation may turn them the other way if they’re the one’s being called murderers.

Someone really needs to ask all these great questions to nutcases like Jill Stanek and her ilk. I’d have multiple digital orgasms while watching them squirm. Please, please, please ask!!! I beg of you!

Mnem:

Yes, we do have cameras that small. But there’s a hitch, as anyone involved in assisted reproduction will tell you: fertilized eggs and blastocysts really like to stay warm and dark and undisturbed. So even if you could get a camera up in there (and remember, you’d have to do this every month, cuz you can’t trust a woman to say if she’s had unprotected sex, oh, and there would be mandatory ultrasounds every couple of days because otherwise you won’t be sure when she’s ovulating) the answer would be, “Well, yes. You had a living fertlized ovum until about five seconds ago.”

I’m trying to think what state constitutional amendments I would like to come up with to run on the other side. How about declaring a right to coffee?

I’m looking forward to three days of bereavement leave every time my wife has her period.

How about if a woman’s water breaks and she nonetheless takes a long plane trip without telling anyone, thus endandering the fetus-person’s life? <cough>Sarah Palin<cough> If the fetus-person died as a result, would she be guilty of negligent homicide?

Incidentally, Judie Brown, the president of the “American Life League,” issued a press release stating that, “In a night overshadowed by pro-abortion victories, one bright light shone for the pro-life movement, and it came from Colorado.”  Wow, really?! What was this bright light?  It seems that Amendment 48, defining a fertilized egg as a person, “gained 27 percent of the vote in one of the most pro-abortion states in the Union.”  Holy cow, 27 percent, over a fourth of the vote?  That’s incredible! Party down, zygote defenders!  http://tinyurl.com/6jkmkc

This personhood amendment doesn’t go far enough. If I see someone that I would like to breed with her telling me “no” is preventing a possible personhood. We need to also protect possibe and imaginary people.

This kind of BS also has some scary implications for pregnant women’s medical/obstetrical care, which are nicely summed up at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuC4gGSZ-yU ... I think I’ve seen at least one or two of these cases brought up on pandagon before.  I’m pregnant with my first child and have been surprised by how suspicious many women are of the medical establishment, but y’know, if I were living in the kind of legal environment that allows shit like this to happen, it would freak me out pretty bad too.  Interestingly, the video points out that in some of these cases the victims were staunchly anti-choice - from what I’ve heard, I think at least one of them later marched against anti-choice legislation, having had a pretty horrifying taste of what it really means when the state has control over your body.

Wow.  That is an amazing (and appalling) video, Ami.  I like to think of myself as reasonably well-informed, but I had heard of almost none of those cases.

This shit is crazy, no doubt, but keep in mind: Amendment 48 got shot down by a 73% vote in CO, which, despite going pretty damn blue this Tuesday (hooray!) is about as socially conservative as they come.  (I mean, we gave this nation James Dobson AND Ted Haggard.  YOU’RE WELCOME.)  I actually think that an abortion ban would have a good chance of passing in CO, but when you bring in this “and also, women who have miscarriages will probably be investigated for manslaughter” shit, even pro-lifers back away.  So in a way, I’m glad the radical anti-choicers are taking this tack, because they’re showing the rest of America just how fucked up their priorities truly are.  In short: it’s nice when bad people are also stupid people.

Can an impregnated woman be punished for poor eating habits, or consuming alcohol or artificial sweeteners?

Pregnant women have been charged with (and convicted of) child abuse for doing drugs while pregnant.

(OT, but “pregnant” is a really hard word to type. I always mess it up.)

Fatman:

My first question when I heard about this nonsense was, “What crimes is the new ‘person’ guilty of?”

If the woman does not offer to give nutrients willingly to this new person, is it not stealing?  If the woman does not want this person in her home, is it not trespassing?  If I stuck a tube in an unwilling woman and started draining blood from her, I would certainly be guilty of something, in fact I am pretty sure that the cops would come and make me stop, so can we expect the same treatment towards these fetal-American squatters?

This is my usual argument for why fetal personhood is irrelevant. How long do you think the DA would have to wait before charging the kid?

Unfortunately, the right wingers I know seem to think that such things wouldn’t happen, and ignore situations where they have.

Screw it - attach riders on any of these amendments allowing pregnant women (working or not) to claim an automatic welfare benefit as a completely disabled person, on behalf of the poor wee FetalAmerican.

And then watch the supporters scream in horror and backpeddle…

PiatoR: As a woman currently in the throes of morning sickness, I support that fully

Moreover, since these ideas mean that you have to assume every single woman of childbearing age is pregnant at all times, meaning every female from 12 to 60 can be on disability for the entirety of her life

That a fertile woman is using contraception will not stop her from becoming pregnant 100% of the time. Personally, I became pregnant twice in exactly that situation.

Contracetive efficacy is defined as “# failures/ 100 woman/ year”. None of the methods (including sterilization) are 100% effective for absolutely everyone. Hysterectomy might fail since some women have two uteri.

“It wouldn’t do any good—pregnancy tests don’t detect a fertilized egg.  You can only detect a pregnancy at implantation (which is when, medically, a pregnancy begins).”

Actually there are tests to detect the hormone given off by a fertilized egg - aka “chemical pregnancy”.  The problem is a large majority of naturally fertilized eggs don’t implant in the uterus.  The only way to prevent this “involuntary manslaughter” would be to use a contraception that prevents fertilization.  I expect to see fundicrat heads exploding.

Can snowflake children vote when they turn 18?

Heck, can they drink when they turn 21?

Cparis:

Nah, “chemical pregnancy” is (believed in general by reproductive endocrinologists to be) unsuccessful implantation or super-early miscarriage, and happens way after fertilization. Any chemical signals given off by the blastocyst are in way too tiny quantities to be detected by anyone other than the cells of the uterine lining (which either respond by making a good attachment point or don’t).

When you do IVF,  the eggs get fertilized in vitro (duh), and then incubated for 2-5 days before getting transferred to the uterus in which it is hoped they will implant. Only after that do the doctors start monitoring the woman’s hormone levels; sometimes/often they see an initial rise followed by a fall, or a rise followed by an apparently normal menstrual period, or even a rise followed by other indicators of pregnancy followed by a(n apparently delayed) period. All of these are called chemical pregnancies because they don’t progress far enough to ever be detectable on ultrasound (which happens about 2-3 weeks after transfer depending).

Sorry for the pedantry, but it’s important to recognize that there really truly is no way to recognize the moment of fertilization. You can recognize a while later that an egg has been fertilized and started to divide, but only at significant risk to its survival.

Pam,

google planned parenthood and racism.

PiatoR: As a woman currently in the throes of morning sickness, I support that fully

Madam, you have my full sympathy.

From a distance.

Shorter larry:

Giving minority women reproductive freedom is racism, because of associations from the past that are no longer operative.

If I keep a couple dozen on ice, can I get a tax deduction and credit for each?  I’d need it to defray the cost of the liquid nitrogen deliveries.

Wow.  44 comments and yet no mention of the kind of “fertilized egg” that results in a precancerous condition known as a hydatidiform mole or molar pregnancy.

Yes, folks.  Lets confer personhood on a cancerous tumor just because it arose from a fertilized egg and couldn’t be removed because some scientifically ignorant dipshit wingnuts don’t understand that things can go very very wrong!

Zifnab: If a pregnant woman gets mugged and miscarries, is the mugger now up for manslaughter charges?

From a story in today’s Las Vegas Review-Journal, yes, it would seem so.  Under current Nevada law, if you cause the death of an unborn fetus during the commission of a felony, it’s a new charge.  This case is unique in that the fetus was only 18 weeks, not the 25 specified in the law.  With a precedent like this, it wouldn’t be much of a stretch to push the date back to conception.  Just get rid of the “quick” language.

‘UNBORN QUICK CHILD’: DEATH OF FETUS TO BRING CHARGE
Father slain, mother wounded in shooting

“We did some research of the definition of an unborn quick child,” Roger said. “It is any movement of a fetus in a mother’s womb.”

This guy wasn’t some mugger.  He was another abusive ex-husband who’d previously threatened to shoot his pregnant ex in the stomach.

The story is really sickening.  He ought to face as many charges as the DA can bring. 

http://www.lvrj.com/news/33989039.html
Roger said prosecutors reviewed the case and decided to pursue an additional charge of “manslaughter, killing of an unborn quick child,” against 25-year-old William John Keck.
</i>

It’s 11pm.  Do you know where your fertilized eggs are?

Technically, DA, that’s a longer larry. But only because of his fallacious appeal to googtacular authority.

My question is: when do identical twins become 2 people?

No, seriously.

If a fertilized egg is miscarried, should religious organizations which think it is a person, be required to hold a funeral?  Every time a woman is late would also count.  After all, every person should have the last rites, no?  Methinks they would be doing nothing but funerals. LOL

If a fertilized egg is a person, Then they won’t mind the mother removing it from her body so it can make it’s own way in life, otherwise the egg could be accused of socialism and no one wants that. (snark)

Sorry but American Christianist are WAY FUCKING SCARY,  In my country people who try this crap are openly Mocked! A zygote is a person? Do they even care that they sound COMPLETELY insane!

All cells contain DNA from which a human can be cloned, therefore, shaving should be completely illegal, as should washing, using the toilet, crying, vomiting, lying in bed, cutting finger or toe nails, bleeding, going bald, flossing, and a host of other things.  Just wait till we get Big Government on your backs, silly LIEbrals!!1!!  There’s a little bit of Jesus in all of your cells and we have to save him!

A serious lawyer friend was all but drooling at the opportunity to slam this bit of legal silliness back at the anti-abortion crowd. Her plan was to have a fetal class action suit, suing pregnant women and obstetricians for involuntary imprisonment.

Dear Personhood USA,

Twins.

Think about it.

Sincerely,

Reality

ElleDee, the site which Pam mentioned lists the 16 states they are targeting (the 17th, being Colorado where they lost).

Here are the 16 states:
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Florida
Massachusetts
Michigan
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
North Dakota
Nebraska
Nevada
Ohio
Oklahoma
Oregon
South Dakota

cordelia9889: You’re also harboring The Goode Doctor Cameron these days, for which I owe you many thanks - he’s coming to town soon to testify on behalf of my ex in his bid for custody. So, yeah, thanks for taking him in after Nebraska spit him out….

Her plan was to have a fetal class action suit, suing pregnant women and obstetricians for involuntary imprisonment.

That’s amazing. I’d be all over that media circus.