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New York comes to its senses

It’s important not to listen to Marcia Pappas about anything—-her version of feminism doesn’t resemble our Earth’s version. She, for instance, suggested that Barack Obama was basically a rapist because he campaigned against Hillary Clinton.  Not an authority, but sadly, treated like one in the press, because she heads up New York NOW. And therefore, creates these awful situations where people get the mistaken impression that at least some feminists are saying X, when usually it’s just Marcia Pappas. 

Latest example is this whole thing with New York becoming a no-fault divorce state.  Because Pappas has this important title, she’s been able to convince the press that “feminists”—-at least some feminists of importance—-are angry about this.  The reality is that feminists were the ones who pushed no-fault decades ago, and feminists who deserve much of the credit for the relative ease of divorce today.  This is because feminists saw what is still true, which is that women are more likely to be unhappy, treated unfairly, or abused in marriages, and more likely to want out.  Even thought it’s evened out more that it used to be, women still file for divorce more often.  Even when you have no-fault divorce, it’s still shockingly easy for an abusive husband to use the court system to make it impossible for his wife to get a clean break.  Many abusive men get with those “fathers’ rights” groups and learn tactics from each other on how to come up with increasingly silly lawsuits over child custody and other issues in order to break a woman emotionally and financially and maintain your power over her.  The effects of abuse by court are nothing to sniff at, as this woman who was rendered homeless because of it can attest.

No-fault is hardly the end-all, be-all, but it’s a big improvement over a system where abusive spouses can stop the divorce itself, as well as file one frivolous lawsuit after another.  Simply knowing that you can get out easily can often make it easier to leave sooner, when an abuser has his hooks less into you.  As this post at Salon indicates, this is nothing to sniff at—-the introduction of no-fault divorce leads to a 30% drop decrease in domestic violence.  As this lawyer explained:

I’ve practiced in two states with radically different no-fault laws, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told a controlling, psychologically abusive spouse, “No, Mr. Jones.  You can’t make her stay married to you if she doesn’t want to be.”  (I also can’t tell you how many times, while teaching a pro-se divorce clinic, I hear the question, “Can I take back my name from her?”  But that is another story for another time.)  Fault-based grounds usually include mental cruelty, but true mental cruelty has a psychological component that can make it very difficult for the abused spouse to articulate that abuse.  More to the point, the abused spouse may be terrified to describe the relationship on paper and testify about it in a court.  And of course, a controlling spouse will always choose the path of most resistance to whatever it is that the other spouse wants.

I say we need to go a step further than no-fault and sever as many rights that a person has over their ex-spouse as possible.  There’s a lot of talk about tort reform in this country, but almost none of it addresses what is probably the single biggest abuse of the courts, which is the constant bullshit lawsuit filing done by angry, abusive men who can’t let go.  Why not limit the number of times you can sue an ex-spouse, or put a statute of limitations on it?  These men will tie women up in court for years, sometimes decades.

Pappas’ excuse for her stance is that fault-based divorce systems protect housewives.  That’s always struck me as a stretch of an argument, since someone can just leave you in the lurch without formally divorcing you if you’re dependent.  At least formal divorce systems do try to make sure that someone’s in-marriage investments count for something, even if it’s not much in practice.  Certainly, that’s how the lawyer they consulted at Broadsheet saw it:

Does unilateral divorce favor the spouse holding the purse strings? Not really. “It benefits the spouse who wants out of the marriage the most. That’s not always the ‘moneyed’ spouse. In fact, research suggests that it is more often the wife,” she says.

Pragmatic issues favor no-fault, but so does the simple ethical principle that feminists call “enthusiastic consent”—-the belief that all sexual relations should only occur if all parties are not just conceding, but wanting to be there.  Obviously, I’m not suggesting that a marriage should be glorious every minute of the day in order for it to be a real relationship.  But if one person is genuinely not happy and has truly withdrawn consent to be in the relationship, holding them in it against their will is a violation of their human rights.  There’s something creepy about Pappas’ image of housewives getting some kind of pointless revenge on husbands who leave by making it harder to dissolve the formal relationship.  It’s admittedly difficult to sympathize with a man who convinces his wife to become dependent on him and then abandons her, but even in this worst case scenario, I fail to see the value in keeping a zombie relationship alive instead of just ending it already.  And the vast majority of divorces aren’t anything like that.  So good on New York for finally coming to their senses.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:03 PM • (52) Comments

I say we need to go a step further than no-fault and sever as many rights that a person has over their ex-spouse as possible.

I’ll go you one better, and argue that this should be enshrined in a boilerplate pre-nup that’s a mandatory part of any marriage license issued by the state. For the moment, though, I’m also happy that New York has seen the light.

Comment #1: Gracchus.  on  06/17  at  07:07 PM

How about going even farther and making marriage a purely religious ceremony with no civil repercussions or responsibilities whatsoever? I know—never going to happen—but I can dream, can’t I?

Comment #2: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  06/17  at  07:28 PM

Pappas is and has been full of crap on this. Yes, there are some marriages where the husband wants out and the wife is able to extract concessions from him to agree to divorce without an ugly, expensive battle. Doesn’t that sound, I don’t know, abusive and controlling?

She apparently doesn’t understand that a divorce is a lawsuit, and the person wanting it has to get up in front of a judge and ask for the marriage to be ended. No-fault means the person wanting out only has to swear to a legalistic phrase that means “this marriage is over”. It means they are spared having to humiliate themselves in a public proceeding by describing the other spouse’s abuse, or infidelity, or neglect of the children, or gambling addition, and asking whether pretty please this is enough for the marriage to end - particularly if the abuser doesn’t want it to end.

I once volunteered at an Immigration Fair where people who had ‘green cards’ and wanted citizenship could get legal advice if they had issues complicating their citizenship applications. One woman (who appeared to have been brought over by her citizen husband) casually mentioned that she was separated, but still married, because for eight years he had “refused to give her a divorce”. She was amazed to learn that she did not need his permission to divorce. He, of course, had always told her that she did, and she never asked anyone who knew better. We sent her on her way with some phone numbers to call to get a divorce lawyer.

Comment #3: mythago  on  06/17  at  07:30 PM

I’m pro no-fault divorce, but I think some of this is over the top and falsely characterises the opposing position.

What rights over an ex-spouse need to be severed? I don’t think there are any. The reason I’m sceptical is that I think most the lawsuits aren’t so much to do with fall out from the marriage but rather child custody, and the fact that people were married doesn’t really matter there so much as the fact someone’s been acknowledged to be the father. And that would still be an issue even if they weren’t never married. I’m not sure there are any marital rights per se that need to be severed. I do think non-custodial parents need their rights taking away, but that’s nothing to do with marriage.

I’m also skepical about the horrors of being trapped in a marriage against your will by no-fault divorce. I think this is overcooked, this isn’t the 1850s, what’s actually the effect here? Let’s be clear - zombie relationships aren’t kept alive - courts can and do sort out the financial aspect of a separation so you can act independently and get on with your life. No-one is held in a relationship. The main effect (and this is Pappas real ‘excuse’) is that it prevents remarriage; which acts as bargaining chip as 50 year old investment bankers are more ‘marriageble’ than 50 year old stay at home moms, and women can use this to extract concessions which would give them a better position than they would under a no-fault regime.

Comment #4: leeders  on  06/17  at  07:31 PM

leeders @4: what are you talking about? Marriage is a legal relationship. It doesn’t just prevent remarriage; it binds you to the other person in all kinds of ways. For example, in every state of which I’m aware, a married woman’s husband is legally presumed the father of her children - kind of awkward if her new boyfriend is the actual father. Marriage affects inheritance, property rights and benefits too.

Comment #5: mythago  on  06/17  at  07:45 PM

They are over child custody.abusers happily use the children as a weapon. Children or no, forcing men to limit their lawsuits is a human rights issue. Please read the link of the woman left homeless. I wish her story was uncommon.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/17  at  07:47 PM

Er, child custody issues. Typing on phone, sorry. But the point stands—-abusers use ever tool available to keep a victim from escaping. We should limit their access to these tools.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/17  at  07:49 PM

Thank you so much for writing about this!

When I first saw that NOW was opposing this, I was wondering why, exactly, feminists were supposed to be against no-fault divorce.  Especially when just about everything I’ve ever heard or read has suggested that making divorce available to women was, itself, a feminist stance.  Of course.  It’s a nutty NOW-NY thing.  I had my head seriously spun by the bizarre party lines in NOW-NY when I first got involved in feminist activism.

Comment #8: The Opoponax  on  06/17  at  08:03 PM

What is it about NOW-NY that generates so much crazy?

Comment #9: mythago  on  06/17  at  08:48 PM

I’m not sure how we’d go about making statutorial limits to exspousal interaction, Amanda.  Though it would be an interesting discussion to have.

Comment #10: Crissa  on  06/17  at  08:49 PM

They are over child custody.abusers happily use the children as a weapon. Children or no, forcing men to limit their lawsuits is a human rights issue.

Again, using children as a weapon can apply to either gender in the divorce, as an example in my own (extended) family would show.  I’ll grant the lawsuits appear to be primarily a weapon of American fathers, however, MRAs or not.

Comment #11: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/17  at  08:53 PM

That’s because at least partly, when it comes to child custody, women don’t need lawsuits. They are the presumed primary parent in 90%+ cases. Mothers who run away with the children are much more common then vice versa. Many of these women are running away from controlling or abusive spouses. But not all of them.

Comment #12: Roivas  on  06/17  at  09:01 PM

Incertus @2, we already have that. It’s called “not getting married”. Some people like the idea, though, that they have some rights and responsibilities to persons with whom they set up housekeeping or have children. There’s a reason that the LGBT community is fighting so hard for the right to marry, and it’s not because they’re too fucking stupid to see the value of your dream.

Comment #13: mythago  on  06/17  at  09:13 PM

I live in New York and some of my dude friends asked me to explain this crap. I just emailed back -
NOW:Feminism :: Pong:Video Games

Comment #14: MissCherryPi  on  06/17  at  10:31 PM

NOW:Feminism :: Pong:Video Games

The sad thing is that this isn’t even that simple.  It’s more about the weird dynamics in the NY state chapter of NOW, which (I think maybe because NY is a big politically active state with a lot of members?) is oddly powerful for a state NOW chapter, and yet run by power hungry cranks who hold all kinds of completely backwards ideas.  Add to that all sorts of back-room organizational deals and factionalism, and you get this kind of shit.  I was once at a national conference where I was made to storm out of a session in protest over some shit that basically boiled down to our faction having a personal grudge against so-and-so and refusing to vote for their proposed change in the by-laws.

I guess the analogy would maybe be NOW-NY:Feminism :: Nigeria:Functional Government ?

Comment #15: The Opoponax  on  06/17  at  10:57 PM

It boggles my mind that this is an issue.

Comment #16: Rebecca  on  06/17  at  11:45 PM

But they always find that one woman who fits that stereotype.  The abandoned, bitter, housewife who is now a receptionist while her husband spends their retirement money on his former secretary.  And I’ve even met one of those.  But I have known many more women who initiated divorce and who left husbands who absolutely were dead-set against divorce, for completely new lives.  They’re now living those lives. 

This reminds me of how often I have been struck by the fact that nearly every really out of shape, terribly unhealthy person I have ever known always knows that one guy.  You know the guy.  The one who ran eight miles a day and ate nothing but sprouts and granola and dropped dead of heart attack at 35.

Yep.  They always know that one guy.  And they are so eager to tell anyone who will listen about him.  And how he dropped dead.

Comment #17: JennyLI  on  06/18  at  12:04 AM

This op-ed by Stephanie Coontz has some good background on what divorce was like in the pre-no-fault-era.

Comment #18: chingona  on  06/18  at  12:54 AM

I’m going to take a shot in the dark and assume you guys aren’t big fans of covenant marriage?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_marriage
:-p

I think limiting litigation on behalf of either spouse is a double-edged sword.  On the one hand, you protect a spouse from endless litigation.  On the other, you risk a spouse being legally defenseless when he/she hits the limit.  Imagine a spouse running out of lawsuit attempts before child custody is settled, or when the spouse wants to file for a restraining order.

From where I sit, the problem with the legal system is similar to the problem with the health care system.  Professional services grow increasingly more expensive, options have become increasingly complex, and people with the most money tend to get the best service.

We need affordable legal advice and streamlined legal proceedings.  We need more judges, so you don’t have ridiculously deep court backlogs.  I mean, this is all systemic not of divorce but of the legal system in general.  You don’t need to marry someone in order to legally harass them.  Just ask a guy who picked a fight with his home owners association.

Comment #19: Zifnab25  on  06/18  at  01:30 AM

Incertus @2, we already have that. It’s called “not getting married”. Some people like the idea, though, that they have some rights and responsibilities to persons with whom they set up housekeeping or have children. There’s a reason that the LGBT community is fighting so hard for the right to marry, and it’s not because they’re too fucking stupid to see the value of your dream.

I think the point Incertus was making is that the state should not be in the business of extending privileges to people simply because they happen to be in a recognized (presumably sexual) relationship.

And in general, I agree with that notion… why do we decide that couples are deserving of more societal benefits than single people?  What about people who are single by choice, or even not single by choice?  Why does society perpetuate the message that life is less meaningful if it doesn’t involve being involved in a longterm sexual partnership with another person?  That is more virtuous to be a person with one partner than a person no partners or multiple partners?

Anyway, that said… I think that the goal of getting the state out of the marriage is a noble long-term goal, but given that we are on the cusp of seeing gay marriage recognized all over the country in the next 10-20 years, it would be cruel to conveniently decide to abolish the state-sanctioned privileges afforded to married couples right now.

My hope… legalize gay marriage, let that play out for long enough to be generally accepted in society to the point where it no longer generates any controversy (mostly when the bigots die off), and then move to abolish all state-sponsored marriages perhaps by the year 2100 after same-sex marriage has long been accepted by mainstream society.  Granted, we’ll probably all be dead by then so it won’t necessarily matter to any of us personally debating this right now, but I would like to live to see a day in which we kill the cultural narrative that a single life is a less meaningful life than a married life.  Says who?  Whether it is meant to do this or not, providing special legal incentives to people who get married tends to convey the message that there is something less valuable about people who are not married - regardless of their reasons for not being married.  This idea that life cannot be complete and truly fulfilling without a permanent lifelong partner is crap.  I’m not married, I’m not so sure I’ll ever be married, and I don’t know if even want to be married.  Right now I don’t really see it happening, but what I want 5 or 10 years from now isn’t necessarily the same thing as what I want today, so I never rule out the possibility that my opinion on the matter could change later in my life.  In any case, I don’t think that the government should exclude me from enjoying certain benefits if I ultimately choose to never get married, or that it should provide me a privileged status should I decide to get married.  I don’t particularly like the idea that if I don’t settle down at some point longterm with my supposed “one twu wuv” that somehow or other that my life has been less meaningful.  And whether it is the intention or not, when you give tax breaks to people simply for being married, that basically amounts to the state deciding that married people deserve to be treated more favorably than unmarried people.  Says who?  Are couples who have their relationship state-sanctioned inherently more worthy human beings, better people, more deserving of favorable treatment by the government?  Why is that so?

Comment #20: DTGslu2K  on  06/18  at  06:21 AM

The idea that women are more likely to want to end the marriage fits with my experience of divorce. So does the idea that the men are more likely to be angry about it years later. Of course that’s just one data point.

Comment #21: atheist  on  06/18  at  07:22 AM

side note on “tort reform”:

it’s a total fabrication, a myth that the courts are clogged with frivolous lawsuits when the real purpose is to deny injured people the right to recover from the companies who hurt them. truly frivolous lawsuits got tossed out really fast. it’s like the famous mcdonald’s coffee case: the company knew that it kept its coffee way too hot but did it anyway, despite the known risk of severe burns.

Comment #22: cj  on  06/18  at  08:50 AM

“I think limiting litigation on behalf of either spouse is a double-edged sword.  On the one hand, you protect a spouse from endless litigation.  On the other, you risk a spouse being legally defenseless when he/she hits the limit.  Imagine a spouse running out of lawsuit attempts before child custody is settled, or when the spouse wants to file for a restraining order.”

This. Any restriction against obtaining redress in the courts seems scary to me. I can think of situations outside the abuser filing frivolous lawsuits where you’d need to over do your limit of lawsuits. I don’t now, it seems wrong to change the system because some people are misusing it. I guess you’d have to decide what percentage of custody cases amount to a legitimate disagreement and what amount to one party using the court system harass or get some payback.

One of the main things I’ve seen as a reporter who sometimes covers court is the extreme slowness of the court system. Ideally, I think we need more judges. Then, if abusive husband files his frivolous lawsuit, at least it gets dealt with quickly. That doesn’t solve the problem of cost, though.

And everyone follow the link to the Debra Dickerson (probably most known for the ‘Obama isn’t black’ thing) story, which she’s continuing to update on her blog. My first thought was (very silly and a bit classist) “She’s too good of a writer for this to happen to!” Her memoir “An American Story” is really pretty awesome.

Comment #23: witless chum  on  06/18  at  10:21 AM

How about going even farther and making marriage a purely religious ceremony with no civil repercussions or responsibilities whatsoever? I know—never going to happen—but I can dream, can’t I?

So what happens when my wife dies?  Where does “her” property go?  How about “her” bank account?  Who decides what was “hers” and what was “mine” when we’ve been together for 3 decades and her name is on some stuff, my name is on other stuff, and both of our names are on a lot of stuff?

How about when I’m in the hospital and in a state where I can’t make decisions for myself?  Who gets to make those decisions about my property and possibly my health?

Are you really advocating that everyone should consult a contract lawyer and have power of attorney paperwork drawn up for those in long term relationships and poor people be damned if they want that kind of protection/assurance?  Personally, I think that having a default partnership contract that says “these are the rights and responsibilities that we expect the two partners to have with regards to property and decision making capabilities”, and having it be easy for potential partners to obtain is a powerful one, and the less you have the more powerful it actually is.  And that’s what a civil marriage is, and why I’m in favor of extending it to any couples that want to enter into one.

There’s a reason why people who see no tax/insurance benefits to marriage, have no intention of having children, and aren’t particularly beholden to tradition will still - especially when they’re older - go out and get the marriage license anyway.  It’s a helluva lot easier and cheaper than getting together with an attorney to construct a power of attorney relationship and a living will and then getting together with an accountant to make sure that bank accounts and other property are properly structured so that if one of you kicks off the other one isn’t left destitute.

Comment #24: NonyNony  on  06/18  at  11:13 AM

DTG @20: the state doesn’t extend any benefits to people who “happen to be in a relationship”; it extends benefits, and imposes responsibilities, on people who make a legal agreement to have that kind of relationship. 

See, the flip side of not automagically getting certain benefits is you also don’t have certain obligations. The government is not going to make you hand over half your salary to your SO. It will not presume anything about paternity of your children. It does not impose a legal duty on you to care for another person. So what’s your beef?

Oh - that recognizing a particular form of contract hurts your feelings because it suggests that marriage is better, so clearly the solution is to crap all over everybody who isn’t legally single. Gotcha.

Comment #25: mythago  on  06/18  at  12:55 PM

Debra Dickerson’s plight was the result of having less money to spend on lawyers than her husband, and a (totally normal and justified) unwillingness to give up her children until it was literally impossible to go on.  Men are way more often in the position of having the money to do this to hurt the woman who is divorcing them than the other way around. 

As others said, calling a halt at a particular number of lawsuits means that last one will “stick” no matter what.  This won’t mean it will be fairer.  The legal strategy will simply change.  Preliminary suits will be minimal, just enough to keep things rolling.  But the final one will have all the money behind it.  The husband will be conveniently out of work and have a wonderful stable home to put the kids in, the wife will be caught in some trumped-up bullshit child abuse event, so he can take them away and the wife will be paying child support.

I don’t know that there is any good answer to this.  People go totally nuts when confronted with infidelity, abandonment, separation from their children.  Putting a limit on spending, or requiring that proceedings be made without lawyers, would simply invite more direct intervention by the angry spouse, a person who often doesn’t have the self-control to stay out of trouble himself or herself.

Comment #26: oldfeminist  on  06/18  at  01:25 PM

the state doesn’t extend any benefits to people who “happen to be in a relationship”; it extends benefits, and imposes responsibilities, on people who make a legal agreement to have that kind of relationship.

So long as they’re in a romantic or sexual relationship (generally a heterosexual one). That seems to be the issue. Why shouldn’t any two (or more) consenting adults, regardless of relationship, be able to enter into that sort of omnibus contract if they so wish?

Keep in mind that “what about the chilllldrrennnn?!” and “romantic relationships are traditionally considered special” are the so-called arguments that Know-Nothing bigots use against same-sex marriage or civil unions.

This isn’t about hurt feelings, this is about the state defining what is and is not a legitimate relationship or familial bond. Civil unions, available to any two or more consenting adults who wish to enter into them, are the better approach (with the understanding that past and existing state-issued marriage licenses will be grandfathered in).

It’s not going to happen, but if you follow the logic for same-sex marriage in good faith that’s really where a liberal should end up.

Comment #27: Gracchus.  on  06/18  at  01:52 PM

So long as they’re in a romantic or sexual relationship (generally a heterosexual one).

What state do you live in that forbids people from getting married unless they can prove they really, really love each other? Marriage is restricted to opposite-sex couples in most states, unfortunately, but doesn’t require proof of romantic love. If you and your roommate want to get married so that you can get insurance benefits, nobody is going to demand you prove that you’re in looooove. And there are a few other restrictions on things like marriages involving blood relatives or minors. But “romantic or sexual relationship”? (I like the oppositional structure there, by the way.) You don’t have to be in love to get married. You generally don’t even have to be having sex to get married.

“Civil unions” means “exactly what marriage is now, but let’s call it something else, because then most people won’t want them and we can insure a lot of lawyers full employment in making sure everything that formerly applied to ‘marriage’ still applies.” And anyway, if your objection is that government-recognized unions dis singles, you wouldn’t want civil unions either.

I don’t have a lot of patience for the rhetorical play that anybody who doesn’t think as you do is not acting in “good faith” or is not really a liberal.

Comment #28: mythago  on  06/18  at  02:29 PM

Why shouldn’t any two (or more) consenting adults, regardless of relationship, be able to enter into that sort of omnibus contract if they so wish?

They should.  Absolutely.  But that’s not the issue here.  The issue here is “current law doesn’t allow me to enter into that sort of contract with my sibling/best friend/etc for our fiscal protection, so IT SHOULD BE TAKEN AWAY FROM EVERYONE BECAUSE IF I DON’T HAVE THE COOL AWESOME TRIUCK IN FRONT OF ME RIGHT THIS INSTANT NOBODY SHOULD EVER GET ANY TOYS!”

Comment #29: stogoe  on  06/18  at  02:35 PM

If memory serves, I read somewhere that one reason more women file for divorce than men, is because some men who want a divorce take the passive-aggressive route of behaving so badly, or detached, that they push the woman to file.

Comment #30: judybrowni  on  06/18  at  02:51 PM

My own mother may not have committed suicide if there had been no-fault divorce in 1960—but, alas, she was also Catholic, so maybe even that wouldn’t have helped to save her.

Comment #31: judybrowni  on  06/18  at  02:52 PM

Not having a no fault divorce is like renting an apartment and not being allowed to move because the landlord still wants you there paying rent.

Marriage is a legal contract in the eyes of the law, and should be no more than that in the eyes of the law.

Comment #32: Ms Kate  on  06/18  at  02:56 PM

What state do you live in that forbids people from getting married unless they can prove they really, really love each other?

That’s more the Federal government’s purview, at least as far as marriages to immigrants go. But that’s irrelevant to the discussion.

It’s not the quality of the relationship upon which the several states are rendering judgment, but rather the nature of the relationship. For a long time, that judgment has determined that the only legitimate nature for a marriage relationship is heterosexual domestic partnership, the assumption being that romance and/or sex (better? I know some married couples with rockin’ sex lives) are involved in the decision to enter into that partnership.

What I’m saying is that the state should get out of the marriage business entirely, and into the civil union business, grandfathering in past marriage licenses as necessary. It’s a name change and re-branding, but unlike BP there are actual legal consequences that expand the nature of the underlying substance.

“Civil unions” means “exactly what marriage is now, but let’s call it something else, because then most people won’t want them and we can insure a lot of lawyers full employment in making sure everything that formerly applied to ‘marriage’ still applies.”

No, let’s call it something else in order to allow a wider number of people to enjoy the same omnibus rights, privileges, and responsibilities. One simple grandfather clause obviates the need for the lawyers.

And anyway, if your objection is that government-recognized unions dis singles, you wouldn’t want civil unions either.

Again, this isn’t anyone being dissed, it’s about allowing a broader legal definition of family by the state. Isn’t that what liberals are pushing for?

The issue here is “current law doesn’t allow me to enter into that sort of contract with my sibling/best friend/etc for our fiscal protection, so IT SHOULD BE TAKEN AWAY FROM EVERYONE BECAUSE IF I DON’T HAVE THE COOL AWESOME TRIUCK IN FRONT OF ME RIGHT THIS INSTANT NOBODY SHOULD EVER GET ANY TOYS!”

I’m not proposing to take anything away—I’m proposing that one term, freighted with all sorts of cultural baggage that’s really none of the state’s business, be replaced with another.

Under that system, couples can still get “married,” of course, just like they do now. The state won’t be involved, except to issue a civil union license to the traditional couple (who are standing in line at the courthouse behind the homosexual couple, and in front of the polyamorous group, and the two divorced best buds, etc., etc. )

From what I’ve seen here, the main fear seems to be that subsuming “marriage” into “civil unions” will somehow make them less “special.” And that’s true, but only insofar as the state is concerned.

Comment #33: Gracchus.  on  06/18  at  02:58 PM

How about going even farther and making marriage a purely religious ceremony with no civil repercussions or responsibilities whatsoever?

So you think it is a productive use of legal and societal resources to make every couple go to court for every little goddamn thing, from home ownership to advance medical directives to child adoption? what, are you a lawyer or something?

Realize then that any and all of this would only be available to the rich and you have a worse situation of privilege than we do now!  Marriage is a shorthand way of acquiring a package of benefits and rights - which is why the push for equality AND the reason MA grants that equality!

Comment #34: Ms Kate  on  06/18  at  03:01 PM

Gracchus, may I suggest the term “domestic corporation”

Comment #35: Ms Kate  on  06/18  at  03:03 PM

That’s more the Federal government’s purview, at least as far as marriages to immigrants go. But that’s irrelevant to the discussion.

No, sorry, moving the goalposts is another game I don’t find compelling. Your comment in @27 was “So long as they’re in a romantic or sexual relationship (generally a heterosexual one). That seems to be the issue.”  If romantic/sexual love is ‘irrelevant to the discussion’, why did you think it seems to be the issue?

Legally, you’re trying to have it both ways. Pretending for the moment that we could magically change the laws in some unquestionable ‘grandfathering’ way to keep any litigation at bay (thank you - best laugh I’ve had all week), all you’d be doing is importing the “marriage” laws, intact, with a new label. So you wouldn’t have a polyamorous group getting civilized or unionized, because the courts would simply read the old laws and cases with “civil unions” scribbled in over “marriages” and get to the same results. If what you’re saying is that the name change suddenly brings in a whole host of new rights, then civil unions aren’t just a name change, in which case, bring on the lawyers, and please explain why (and how) polyamorous groups and blood siblings get to unionize when they didn’t before.

And can I say how ironic and sad it is to have the same arguments flung up by anti-same-sex-marriage folks brought out here. Oh, just call them something else, there’s no need to use the M-word. Why have special benefits? Can’t they just make legal agreements, like roommates do? What’s wrong with them having civil unions as long as they have all of the exact same rights?

Comment #36: mythago  on  06/18  at  03:20 PM

Gracchus, may I suggest the term “domestic corporation”

That’s the spirit!

Seriously, “civil union” is a little more broad, covering more than just financial obligations and allowing for families who don’t co-habitate. The only components the state need concern itself with are “civil” (i.e. legal recognition of) and “union” (i.e. the joining of two or more people in a family).

Comment #37: Gracchus.  on  06/18  at  03:21 PM

I can’t say I like determining policy based on the (dubious) welfare of a tiny percentage of the population (women who choose to be stay-at-home wives) at the great expense of everyone else.  A woman who hands her entire financial welfare over to the whims and desires of another person has to accept the inherent risk:  that her husband could abandon her and leave her destitute.  Fault divorce laws are not the solution.

Comment #38: keshmeshi  on  06/18  at  03:28 PM

Ms Kate @34: oh, there you go with your detail-based agenda. Why can’t we just throw around terms like “union” and “corporation” and leave it to, well, somebody to figure out how to change current law to apply those? Changing the terminology to “civil union” is hard enough!

On ‘two or more’, sorry, but as a poly person myself, I have never heard a cohesive proposal of how to implement this, much less integrate it under current law. It’s a headache. It’s not impossible, but simply saying oh, just let whoever marry, betrays a stunning ignorance of the actual “civil” part of the “civil union” thing.

Comment #39: mythago  on  06/18  at  03:30 PM

keshmeshi @38, while I agree with your first and last sentences, the rest of your post misses the point. Marriage is a joint economic venture. While fault-based divorce is not the solution, marriage can and should offer legal protections; if you’re married it’s presumed “our money”, not “my money”, and telling a stay-at-home wife that she’s a dumbfuck who should have kept her own bank account is not really the solution either.

Comment #40: mythago  on  06/18  at  03:33 PM

No, sorry, moving the goalposts is another game I don’t find compelling. Your comment in @27 was “So long as they’re in a romantic or sexual relationship (generally a heterosexual one). That seems to be the issue.” If romantic/sexual love is ‘irrelevant to the discussion’, why did you think it seems to be the issue?

Because the Feds don’t issue marriage licenses—the several states do.

To be clear, I don’t think the Feds have much business determining if a marriage is legitimate or not, either.

Legally, you’re trying to have it both ways. Pretending for the moment that we could magically change the laws in some unquestionable ‘grandfathering’ way to keep any litigation at bay

No magic involved. One well-known category of contract is subsumed within a broader one, according the same omnibus contract.

So you wouldn’t have a polyamorous group getting civilized or unionized, because the courts would simply read the old laws and cases with “civil unions” scribbled in over “marriages” and get to the same results.

And new results. New law creates that. If a member of a polyamourous group wants to avail themselves of or dissolve the contract, they’ll do it. I have no doubt that there will be lots of appeals that will result in new precedents, but that’s the business of the law.

The legal acceptance of same-sex marriage or civil unions will also overturn some precedents grounded in “traditional marriage.” That’s a good thing.

If what you’re saying is that the name change suddenly brings in a whole host of new rights, then civil unions aren’t just a name change

I’m not saying that. I’m saying the name change comes along with a substantive expansion of access to an existing omnibus contract.

please explain why (and how) polyamorous groups and blood siblings get to unionize when they didn’t before.

As far as polyamorous groups go, it’s more your task to explain “why not?” The current arguments against same-sex unions might provide some useful starting points.

Blood siblings are a bit more complex. In the absence of parents or spouses (in the current parlance) or children, they’re currently given a lot of those omnibus rights and privileges anyhow. But if they detest each-other, they should have the opportunity to take advantage of the “pre-nup” (i.e. standard dissolution terms) that should be built into civil unions.

And can I say how ironic and sad it is to have the same arguments flung up by anti-same-sex-marriage folks brought out here. Oh, just call them something else, there’s no need to use the M-word.

In terms of legal recognition by the state of a union, there is no need. Both the same-sex marriage and the same-sex union are recognised, by the appropriate parties.

Why have special benefits?

No-one’s objecting to the benefits (nor are they discounting the responsibilities). The “special” part is the issue.

Can’t they just make legal agreements, like roommates do?

No-one’s arguing that. Quite the opposite, we’re arguing “can’t they get the same package of benefits, just like married heterosexual couples currently do?”

What’s wrong with them having civil unions as long as they have all of the exact same rights?

Nothing at all, when it’s state-recognised civil unions for anyone and everyone who wants one, and state-recognised marriages for no-one.

You want a marriage, go to church, or a ship’s captain, or stand up in front of your family, etc. The only entity that shouldn’t be able to grant that is the state.

Comment #41: Gracchus.  on  06/18  at  03:42 PM

On ‘two or more’, sorry, but as a poly person myself, I have never heard a cohesive proposal of how to implement this, much less integrate it under current law.

So only two individuals at any given time can have a family relationship as recognised by the state? Even excluding minors, that would be a surprising assumption.

And no, it isn’t impossible, and yes, it isn’t easy. That’s the civil rights movement in a nutshell for you.

Comment #42: Gracchus.  on  06/18  at  03:46 PM

No magic involved. One well-known category of contract is subsumed within a broader one, according the same omnibus contract.

Okay, no magic. Just handwaving. 

How will this be “subsumed”? Will all the rights and responsibilities of marriage be exactly the same? Guess not, since we’re letting multiples marry - so how does that change?  Again, you keep arguing in vague generalities - open the doors, let everybody in, it’ll just be magically grandfathered in and exactly the same, or it won’t be, but who cares, civil unions for all! I know the old line about “that works perfectly in the model, but how about in reality?” but you haven’t even proposed a consistent model.

As for poly, no, it’s not my job to explain “why not”, because the question is not why, but how. And, again, even as a poly person in discussions with poly and polyfriendly folks, nobody who understands how US law works has (to my knowledge) presented a way to handle multiple marriages or civil unions. If A marries B and then B marries C, are A and C married? What if A doesn’t consent to marry C - can B still marry C? What are C’s obligations to A if any? Vice versa? Is everything A, B and C own community property together? These are questions that people who approve of poly marriage/unions wrestle with, and throw up their hands at. Ignorantly snarking “why not?” is not a real solution.

Of course, all this tangent was in response to DTG’s complaint that we should abolish marriage altogether to stop making single people feel inferior.

Comment #43: mythago  on  06/18  at  04:23 PM

FWIW, I’m an example of a New Yorker (male) who wanted to get out of an (emotionally) abusive marriage, and whose wife tried to do everything to make it impossible for me to leave.  She finally agreed to a separation agreement on the day we were to go to trial, after 10 hours of negotiation.

The worst part was prepping for the trial: you have to get yourself into a mindset to convince the judge that your soon-to-be-ex is the worst human being on the planet, worse than Hitler, worse than Idi Amin.  You can’t admit, even to yourself, that she might have any redeeming features.  I found it revolting.  There’s something about devoting one’s time and energy to finding only the worst in someone that just turns my stomach.  When she finally agreed to a settlement (with very ill grace), I felt like I’d gotten a reprieve from death row.

And she made it clear that she would not have settled even then if it hadn’t been for the fact that we lived within a half-hour drive of New Jersey and Connecticut, both of which have no-fault, and she knew that if NY didn’t grant me a divorce, I would just move across the state line and do a no-fault.  (But I would have hated moving so far from my kids.)

Comment #44: AMM  on  06/18  at  04:51 PM

How will this be “subsumed”? Will all the rights and responsibilities of marriage be exactly the same?

Nope. As noted, they’ll work off the blueprint of existing rights and responsibilities, adjusting or abstracting concepts that used to be limited to parties of two. Given that, the adjustments wouldn’t be subtractory, so the grandfathering wouldn’t be difficult.

As for poly, no, it’s not my job to explain “why not”, because the question is not why, but how.

I asked “why not” because you asked me to please explain “why” at #36. No snark intended, it was a serious response to your question, which was only slightly less odd than someone asking “please explain why (and how) gays and lesbians get to unionize when they didn’t before”

I’d agree that “how” and “how not” is both our burden to examine. And you provide some good questions:

If A marries B and then B marries C, are A and C married? What if A doesn’t consent to marry C - can B still marry C? What are C’s obligations to A if any? Vice versa? Is everything A, B and C own community property together?

To address this, let’s discuss what state-sanctioned marriage is, as currently defined. The best definition I’ve been given is the joining of two families into one in the eyes of the state (hence the term “in-laws”). So we’re talking about the state recognising a family in terms of a collection of rights, privileges, and responsibilities—both financial and non-financial. To be clear, I have no problem with that concept.

Consent is also a key part of this formula, as you imply. The state should not force any adult into a contract to which they did not consent (although that does happen too with business contracts).

So (accepting your use of “married” over “unionised”)...

If A marries B and then B marries C, are A and C married?

If C hasn’t gone to the courthouse to become a consenting party to the contract, then no.

What if A doesn’t consent to marry C - can B still marry C?

Yes. At this point we’re separating out financial aspects of the family household (e.g. joint assets) from the non-financial ones (e.g. hospital visitation rights). And while it may be shocking, I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Perhaps it could be addressed by the state issuing two contracts: civil union (for non-financial rights and responsibilities) and some variation on domestic partnership (for the financial ones). Perhaps even a third contract connecting aspects of the other two (e.g. child welfare) if the parties want to enter into both.

(I know, I know, what about the poor married people? Grandfathering can include more than one contract)

The other questions you ask are covered by the existence of those separate contracts.

Now you might think it’s horrifying that people entering into a serious and presumably life-long relationship might have to sign more than one document to get their automatic package of state-issued goodies and protections. I tend to take such things seriously enough that I don’t mind making people think hard about their choices—choices that, given state recognition, affect all of us.

Comment #45: Gracchus.  on  06/18  at  04:59 PM

And honestly, if we can’t be arsed to sort of the details of adding more than two people to the mix, I’d be more than happy to keep it to any two consenting adults getting the omnibus package, regardless of gender or romantic/sexual relationship. Would you? Would you if all it took was a name change?

Comment #46: Gracchus.  on  06/18  at  05:11 PM

Gracchus, may I suggest the term “domestic corporation”

Please no.  I’m single, and don’t want to be on the hook for giving married people even more privileges, like unlimited spending in elections and government bailouts.  I also don’t need every pair-bonded couple in the country voting Republican (the official party of corporate America).  And I certainly don’t need them counting as 3 people instead of 2 for the census (ok, we haven’t quite gotten to the point of counting corporate people in the census yet - but wait for 2020).

Comment #47: libdevil  on  06/18  at  05:57 PM

adjusting or abstracting concepts that used to be limited to parties of two.

Gracchus, I realize this is going to sound snotty as hell and I don’t mean it to. But you’re handwaving. You’re taking an enormous and complex body of law and saying, in essence, we’ll just change the name and everything will work out, and you keep changing what you mean by that. First you’re saying hey, we’ll “grandfather” in everything so civil unions will just be the new name for marriage, severing all the social context from the M-word but otherwise changing nothing. Then you’re going on to propose enormous legal upheavals, to the point of creating a three-track system (possibly four, if we “grandfather” in existing marriage). Really, you think this is going to obviate the need for lawyers?

And again, the flip “just call it civil union” argument is exactly one made to shut down advocacy for same-sex marriage. Propose a pie-in-the-sky solution that will almost certainly never happen, and which marriage advocates don’t want anyway and insist that they achieve that before we’ll do something as simple as, oh, abolishing the mixed-gender requirement for marriage. If you want to be the one to tell LGBT marriage activists that they’re idiots for pushing for “marriage” and would be much better off adopting your proposed three-or-four-track, attorney-enrichment-program civil marriage setup, you know, feel free.

As for @46, other than “gender”, “already married to somebody else” and “related closely by blood”, what you’re proposing already exists. You do not have to be in love to marry. You do not have to have sex to marry. You often don’t have to be an adult. You do have to be the opposite sex of the person you’re marrying, and abolishing that requirement really is a minimal legal change. As opposed to creating a complicated new system that people will just call “marriage” anyway.

Comment #48: mythago  on  06/18  at  07:21 PM

Actually, my uncle was a runner who ate well and was totally healthy - and got an infection and ended up being one of the first 50 heart transplant recipients at OHSU hospital in 1986.  So yeah, these things happen!

But like I said, reform is always a worthy topic.  We’ve found out that no-fault benefits more than hurts, so we support that.  Would we have even struck upon it without the conversation?  Perhaps there needs to be less litigation and more arbitration in divorce… I dunno, but we won’t find out if we don’t discuss it.

Comment #49: Crissa  on  06/18  at  07:25 PM

As it goes, I think talking about stopping the same-sex marriage meme is a non-starter.  You need the right to choose someone to take care of you.  Someone to take care of your stuff when you’re sick, and we seem to pair off.  Even if these aren’t permanent; two is just better than one, for a household, for the children, etc.

So as long as the crazies are trying to deny even the barest legal connections between same-sex partners, we have to fight this fight.  Remember this is about hospitals denying access to spouses.  Remember that this is about people stealing or liquidating life-long partners at the end of their lives.  Remember that this is so that children can retain the connections and stability of their parents.  Where loved spouses can receive the same regard for pensions or health benefits given.  It’s such a multitude of basic, taken-for-granted rights.

So we have to fight for civil marriage.

Comment #50: Crissa  on  06/18  at  07:30 PM

Oh, forgot!  It’s even the right of religious freedom to choose to anoint the bond between two consenting adults.

Why freedom for thee, but not for me?

Comment #51: Crissa  on  06/18  at  07:31 PM

When you’re talking about abusers, the question is really something along the lines of “what set of rules will minimize the damage they’re able to do?” Might be some kind of limit on court access, might be sanctions for lawyers (yeah, right), might be something else. (I just talked to someone whose ex, 10+ years on, is renegging on a deal to help pay for the kids’ college tuition, and the upshot was “sure, I could take him back to court and get the money, but it would take lots of energy, and he’d just figure out something else to do. This way he might think he’s won for a while.”)

Comment #52: paul  on  06/19  at  10:04 PM
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