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Next entry: Hahaha, “Decent” Muslims Previous entry: Mad Men Monday: Katie Roiphe is wrong again

No laughing, no screwing, no learning how to read

ChoadsFeminismSex

I know this whole thing is probably disconcerting for her, but thanks to Jaclyn Friedman for pointing me to the most comically incoherent bout of slut-shaming I’ve read in a long ass time.  See, Jaclyn wrote a moving story about how making the move to straight up slutting it up was liberating for her.  Contrary to the incoherent claims of her critic Susan Walsh, Jaclyn did not suggest that trolling Craig’s List for casual sex is the right thing for everyone or the right response to every situation.  And, unlike Susan, I can prove my claims!  While Jaclyn’s essay is very much about how sluthood worked for her, when she says that she’s telling her story for others, she doesn’t say, “Because everyone should sleep around all the time and not want anything else.”

Sluthood isn’t a disease, or a wrong path, or a trend that’s ruining our youth. It isn’t just for detached, unemotional women who “fuck like men,” (as if that actually meant something), consequences be damned. It isn’t ever inevitable that sluthood should inspire violence or shame. Sluthood isn’t just a choice we should let women make because women should be free to make even “bad” choices. It’s a choice we should all have access to because it has the potential to be liberating. Healing. Soul-fulfilling. I’m telling you this because sluthood saved me, in a small but life-altering way, and I want it to be available to you if you ever think it could save you, too. Or if you want it for any other reason at all. And because even if you don’t ever want sluthood for yourself, you’re going to be called upon to support a slut. I’m telling you this because when that happens, I want you to say yes.

Access to =/ a mandate.  At the end, she suggests your only real duty is to support your friends if they decide to have casual sex, but certainly no duty to do it yourself is implied.  This is very, very important, because Susan Walsh has very strong ideas about how there’s only one path for everyone, and so she makes the mistake of thinking that’s what Jaclyn is saying.  Even though Jaclyn already stated up front that she’d done her time in monogamous relationships, and figures she will again one day.

On to Walsh’s piece, because seriously, the incoherence may put Sarah Palin’s baffling use of the word “cojones” to shame. 

Women who understand the power of sex, the incredible chemistry of it, women who know that sex is not casual physiologically speaking, women who do not embrace a life of sluthood, are indeed left alone by many men. That’s a good thing in some ways, but terribly disappointing in others. Very few women embrace the notion of receiving zero male attention once word gets out that they are not slutty. They cannot compete with determined sluts in the marketplace among these men.

I found this to be super awesome, because usually the faux concern aimed at loose women is about how no one will ever love them.  But now they just suck up all the cock, leaving none behind for the ladies who like to wait it out a little.  So you’re obligated to stop fucking so other women don’t feel they have to.  This argument, taken to its logical conclusion, basically means that we can’t wear lipstick (or not), can’t have a sense of humor (or not), can’t be skinny (or not), can’t be curvy (or not), and absolutely can’t date.  Because if a man finds out that he prefers this quality over that quality in a woman, then women who don’t have that quality will always be left out. 

Fuck it.  Let’s assign partners by lottery.  Screw this notion that we should enjoy each other’s company. 

Notice, by the way, that women’s preferences (for a man who moves fast vs. a man who moves slow, for instance) aren’t even considered?  We just want someone with a pulse and a penis to validate our existence, I suppose.

We got into a Twitter battle over this, and I kept trying to get Susan to define a “slut” for me, based on the universally understood idea belief that you’re a slut once your Number gets over a certain point.  Realizing she wasn’t going to win any friends settling on a number, Susan dodged the question, saying instead, “I reject theconcept of a #. Women should listen to their own instincts. If it makes you feel like crap, stop doing it.”  But of course, she’s lying (or really, really fucking stupid), because she attacks Jaclyn for feeling good about her choices.  If she doesn’t want women to feel like crap, she should be applauding Jaclyn’s piece, which had thrilling lines like:

“I’m telling you this because sluthood saved me. Sluthood gave me the time and space to nurse a shattered heart.”

And:

“I’ve remembered how much I like pleasure, and how much of it there is in the world. I’ve had to learn how to reject people nicely but clearly, and learn how to appreciate a generous rejection when it’s aimed at me.”

Oh, and:


“But most days, sluthood helps me be patient. It keeps desperation at bay. It reminds me to enjoy the life I have now, instead of waiting for someone to come start it. It helps me know my heart better, and my libido. It makes me better at communicating about both of them, and much less likely to confuse the two. To my mind, far from ruining me for real love, sluthood is preparing me for it.”

For some people (not just women), sleeping around isn’t going to work for them. But that doesn’t mean that these benefits aren’t real for those who do find that it works.  Jaclyn’s absolutely right that getting some action can take the edge off, particularly if you tend to get nervous when you’re horny.  If you both have a rule that you don’t fuck unless it’s love, and you’re super horny, you’re very likely to round up any old asshole into true love just to get off.  And then, after dating them for awhile, the break-up is even uglier!  But if you just found them hot, screwed them, got it out of your system, and then didn’t bother to follow up, you both have more time in your schedule to meet people who may actually work out as your actual true love, and you tend not to be so wound up.  Relaxed, non-desperate people are charming, you know.  They do better on the sexual “market” that Susan is obsessed with.  If you see yourself as an item for sale on the market, then you may want to consider that the bidders aren’t eager to date women that have a twitchy, desperate vibe.

Or maybe you could grow up and realize that if a person isn’t going to love you for you, they aren’t worth having.  Still, even if you’re uncomfortable with casual sex, the “Something About Mary” advice to rub one out before a date so you don’t have the twitchy, desperate vibe?  I don’t think that’s deceitful or anything.  Just putting forth your best you on a date.

Susan then takes a swipe at Jaclyn for being queer, takes another swipe at her for being in her late 30s, and proceeds to drop some pseudo-science about oxytocin (she admits that men feel it, but continues to deny that they can really feel attachment/love like women can, which is supposed to make us want them why?).  It’s the usual misogynist argument: women want love but not sex, men want sex but abhor love, so women have to trick men into pretending to love us by withholding sex.  Basically, all women are prostitutes who sell our pussies in exchange for a feigned expression of love.  We’re supposed to want this because, shit, I have never figured out why.  Because women are delusional, I guess, and will accept fake love in exchange for sex.  Which makes me wonder—-if women can round up a man pretending to love us to get access to pussy, then why can’t we simply pretend a casual encounter was a tragic love affair that ended because he was shipped off to war and died?  Put that ability to delude yourself to work!

Jaclyn says she’s happy, and Susan proceeds to call her a liar, because Jaclyn’s happiness disproves her weird theory that women can only be made happy by luring men into fake love through the vagina market.  So she says Jaclyn has “red flags”. 

Fast forward through a few more relationships. Rapid fire serial monogamy is a clear indication that something is wrong. Ur doing it wrong.

This is supposedly evidence against the joys of sluttiness, but Jaclyn actually experienced rapid fire serial monogamy before she decided to slut it up.  The whole point of her essay is that casual sex gives her a way to not fall into the same traps as before.  In other words, Susan has reading comprehension issues.

I launched myself somewhat full-throttle. Again, the prevailing drive is impulse, perhaps even compulsion.

Proving once again that the whole point of this exercise is straight-up misogyny.  The only reason that Susan gives for why it’s wrong for a woman to seize the day is that it’s wrong for a woman to seize the day.  If you don’t like women behaving assertively, the problem isn’t with women.  It’s that you are a misogynist.  Yes, even if you’re a woman.  That just makes it sadder.

It was comforting to me to find that there were other people I found appealing who felt similarly. Seeking relationships as a form of sexual validation works in the very short-term. It’s a house of cards, though, as Ms. Friedman learned.

Says the woman who is writing about how women should view themselves as commodities on the market that sell for the highest bidder.  Hypocritical as well as incapable of reading correctly!  If Jaclyn was talking about anything but sex, the idea that there is something wrong with her for meeting like-minded people would be laughable.  Imagine if her essay was about how much she liked playing gin rummy, and wrote, “It was comforting to me to find that there were other people I found appealing who felt similarly.”  Then it would just be common fucking sense.

If there was any kind of a click at all, I’d throw myself at them whole-hog. Ouch. Not a good strategy. Leads to shouts of “Psycho! Leave me alone!”

Again, this is the problem that Jaclyn said that sluthood fixed.  Susan conflating pre- and post-sluthood is so chronic here that I’m beginning to think she’s less illiterate and more aggressively arguing in bad faith.

When something would inevitably go wrong… it would feel overwhelming. Like I was dying. Like I was broken all over again. This is painful to witness. I do understand the profound need that Ms. Friedman must feel to be healed, and loved.

Faux concern for a person you’re bullying is a red flag for wingnuttery, I must say. She follows up this feigned concern, by the way, by suggesting Jaclyn is going to get murdered like in that movie with Diane Keaton from the 70s.  Because trying to control someone with threats of violence equals concern.

It also does explain why the more tender emotions that tend to shape most people’s romantic lives—-love, empathy, passion, kindness, lust, rapport, compassion, and even humor (something Susan really doesn’t like when it comes from feminists)—-pass her by, as does any understanding of nuance, change, diversity, or any of the various waves that make no two situations alike, no two relationships alike.  Human relationships are reduced to a market, where women are selling and men are buying.  Human emotions are like pressing buttons on a microwave.  One orgasm = one insta-falling in love (but only for women, ‘cause men’s love hormones are muted).  These kinds of varied and empathetic emotions were all over Jaclyn’s moving piece.  You cannot reduce people to market commodities in Jaclyn’s world, even if they are posting on Craig’s List.  Their needs are varied and ever-changing, and very, very real.  Part of me thinks that’s what pissed Susan off the most, since she doesn’t seem to get it, with her neat little prescriptions about how much sex to give up when to shield yourself from heart break.

Good luck with that, by the way.  Susan kept trying to trip me up on Twitter, demanding that I say that I think that no woman is ever made sad by a casual encounter, that women don’t fall in love during casual relationships and find heartbreak.  (She seemed, per her assumption that men don’t feel love or attachment, to discount the possibility that casual sex could leave a man heartbroken.)  I simply replied that she prove that limiting your sexual encounters to committed relationships means never feeling sad, or never being dumped.  I offered to take her to a divorce court if she was skeptical that sex in a committed relationship was a foolproof bulwark against heartbreak.  So she settled on trying to make me feel dirty.  I almost felt bad for her, because a line like that—-“Bumping bones is not dating.”—-is almost too fucking easy.  I replied, “No, of course not. Going to dinner and then bumping bones is dating.”  You’d think that someone who learns so much from movies like “Looking for Mr. Goodbar” would also know that Audrey Hepburn taught us that anyone with a cute little black dress is basically shielded from witless cracks about human sexuality designed to make women feel less than fabulous.

Of course, Susan did swipe at that kind of comment:

aking refuge in snark is a favorite maneuver among feminists. “Something to do with?” “Getting all used up?” Snark, snark. Sneer, roll eyes.

The fantasy is that we snark in our writing and then go to bed and cry ourselves to sleep.  Well, I fantasize about Jon Hamm and Matt Damon showing up at my door with a bottle of expensive wine and a lot of really big fluffy pillows, myself.  To each their own, I guess.  But I can tell the difference between a fantasy and a reality.  And I know that the “feminists” she’s speaking of like snarking for the same reason Jon Stewart and Judd Apatow like snarking—-that’s the language we grew up speaking.  Of course, I can see why someone who doesn’t understand that women might have sex for the pleasure of it can’t understand very well that people crack jokes because laughing is fun. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:35 PM • (121) Comments

Holy hell, someone get this Susan women a copy of “The Ethical Slut” stat. 

After I read that book, suddenly it clicked why my marriage was a little constraining to me.  I wasn’t monogamous.  I didn’t care if my husband slept with other women (no, seriously, I didn’t) and I wanted to be able to sleep with other people. 

There are some women and men that the whole, dating, getting married, being monogamous for the rest of their lives works for them.  And that is fabulous.  If that is what works for you, trying to be poly or trying to slut around for awhile or trying to be with the same sex WILL leave you miserable.  But that’s not because being poly, queer, or even down right slutty is wrong.  It’s because trying to fit yourself into a shape that isn’t you hurts.  If you’re poly, or queer, trying to be mono and straight is like taking a corkscrew and trying to turn it into a nail.

Comment #1: Antigone  on  08/02  at  07:34 PM

The entire people angry at other people having sex is just a form of jealousy. Just because a person’s love and sex life sucks doesn’t give that person a right to demand that everybody else on the planet live a hermit’s life.

Comment #2: Lee  on  08/02  at  07:35 PM

The “sex will make you sad!” thing is such a racket, too.  Every bump and bruise the slut experiences is attributed to her sluttiness, but every bump or bruise the person in a committed relationship or who is abstaining experiences is just life.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/02  at  07:45 PM

Granted I’m a guy and probably don’t have much grounds to comment, but I had to share Jaclyn’s article on Facebook.

Comment #4: BrianX  on  08/02  at  07:50 PM

“I reject theconcept of a #. Women should listen to their own instincts. If it makes you feel like crap, stop doing it.

Man, that’s not even actually a dodge, it’s just, like… an outright admission of the correctness of the opposing viewpoint, a total embrace of exactly what Friedman was arguing for. That’s the point where I’d go “whoa okay, thanks for agreeing that I’m right and that you’ve been completely wrong, laters.”

Comment #5: Dan  on  08/02  at  07:54 PM

What do you think the chances are that we can sneak the essay into the comments at Dawn Eden’s blog?...

Comment #6: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/02  at  07:59 PM

Brilliant.

Comment #7: Ranylt  on  08/02  at  08:02 PM

While there are definitely people out there who get hurt when going outside of “default mode” relationships, there are also people who get hurt inside such things.  All relationships can go sour, lead to heartache, be wonderful, be blah, or be boring, but the notion that people won’t get hurt if they follow some simple rules is a stupid one.  People get hurt when they’re vulnerable or even when they just think they aren’t.  For some, that means risks should be avoided at all costs.  For others, that means risks don’t matter because “shit happens” or some other nihilistic philosophy.  Where’s the happy middle?

All I know is that I have a pattern of dabbling in relationships and then committing early and then not wanting to draw back from that commitment because of how my girlfriend might respond to such a request.  I only hurt myself that way.  It’s my choice to be less of a slut than I could, but it’s not as if martyrdom has its advantages.  Where’s the right slut/monogamous mix?  I haven’t found it, but I will do more research.  And that’s probably slutty.  Or is it studly, since I have a penis?  Damn those double standards.  I can’t be free to call myself a slut even to a lesser degree.  Can’t be a player if I don’t play by the rules.  Or is it The Rules?  I don’t play by those, either.

Comment #8: 3letterjon  on  08/02  at  08:06 PM

Damn does she hate men.

Now that said, speaking as a man, I think our gender has many, many, MANY flaws. But boy. Still. She hates men.

She thinks men are cold calculating creatures who fake love for the sex. That’s what it looks like to me. I won’t say that this is never the case. Life can be complicated, and men have our own pressures. Not all relationships are relationships where the man wants all sex all the time and the woman just wants to snuggle. Women have their own needs and desires, and yes, they want them fulfilled. And there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s the opposite of wrong actually. Meaning it’s right, good, but above all. Healthy. As long as all parties are not under any false illusions or pretenses and acting like mature adults.

There’s no problem.

Comment #9: Karmakin  on  08/02  at  08:19 PM

With zero disrespect meant towards any other posts, this is the best article I’ve seen here in a while.  The rest is good, this is just better.  And I haven’t had a chance to read the source material- will have to do that after work.  Kudos.

Now if only some of my co-workers could see this and just maybe stop acting like “omg sex without a boyfriend no wai!”... I have no interest in them, they’re too young, it’s just sad that the possibilities are so ingrained as impossible to imagine.

Comment #10: Spiffy McBang  on  08/02  at  08:19 PM

a lot of really big fluffy pillows, myself

We aren’t talking in metaphor here, I hope

Great article, thanx, AM, really right on the money

Comment #11: firefall  on  08/02  at  08:30 PM

Thank you for this!

I think it is important for women in committed relationships to respect the right of other women to slut it up.  Most of my friends in committed relationships have no problem with the way I live.  But there are women I know, most of whom seem pretty miserable in their own relationships, who inquire about when I plan on settling down.  I don’t think its jealousy or anthing like that, but something about the freedom to do whatever I want makes them really uncomfortable, like I’m a loose end that needs to be tied up (heh).

Comment #12: kitten parade  on  08/02  at  08:31 PM

Hell, speaking as a straight man I wouldn’t be displeased with Matt Damon, some wine, and some cushions laying about.  raspberry

Really, though.  Susan’s whole thing comes across as weaselly ‘for your own good dear’ and is creepy.  And while realizing the major focus here is on women, yeah.  I love being treated like some helpless slave to my lusts, unable to desire or realize any emotional needs past sex.  Thanks for the sympathetic shout out to the guys in the audience.  (This being the internet, please note there were no snark markers on that last bit - I do mean it)

Comment #13: Sivi  on  08/02  at  08:42 PM

it’s just sad that the possibilities are so ingrained as impossible to imagine.

Interesting.  You praise Amanda for a long piece on women’s right to choose what they want and be comfortable or uncomfortable with casual sex, and it’s *your* conclusion that women should be obligated to like casual sex.  Perhaps you should shut your pie hole.

Comment #14: keshmeshi  on  08/02  at  08:48 PM

They cannot compete with determined sluts in the marketplace among these men.

What an image: all those ‘determined’ sluts marching into bars, hoisting teh menz over their shoulders and marching back out while the Good Girls stand by open mouthed, and subsequently dateless.

Comment #15: Eric_RoM  on  08/02  at  08:59 PM

What an image: all those ‘determined’ sluts marching into bars, hoisting teh menz over their shoulders and marching back out while the Good Girls stand by open mouthed, and subsequently dateless.

Snu-snu?

Comment #16: ks  on  08/02  at  09:05 PM

If men are such cold, calculating creatures who only feign affection in order to get sex, how does she explain the gay men who get married and have children?

Comment #17: Entomologista  on  08/02  at  09:15 PM

Entomologista,

Duh!  Gay men aren’t actually gay, just in need of therapy.  Good Christian therapy.

Comment #18: 3letterjon  on  08/02  at  09:23 PM

I think at the end of the day conservatives don’t REALLY believe their own bullshit.  Like, they believe that men don’t want love, but then proceed to act as if their husbands and sons and brothers married for love.  I find this all the time with conservative thought.  Only sluts get abortions, but march off to the Planned Parenthood.  Only lazy people need welfare, but it’s different with your brother Mark, he’s just having a rough time with the economy as it is.  My home is always open to those in need, but eww, would you call the cops? That homeless person is at the corner again.

I think they have this fictitious universe in their head, and out in the world, the world that isn’t their family and friends and neighbors it’s totally different.  “Women just want love and men just want sex but I married your father because he was so sweet to me and he’s such a good provider, and I’m taking Jane’s kids for the night because she really needs some, ahem, intimate time with John.”

It’s just frustrating to look at it from the liberal perspective, because we DON’T participate in all of these pleasant social fictions.  We look at and go “Well, men often also want love and women often also want sex, so why are we talking around the issue and giving terrible, sexist advice about this?”  But that starts to lead to some scary examination of how we view our narrow circle against the rest of American society, and gasp, the world, and how we aren’t so different, and then we run headlong into cognitive dissonance, so let’s just stick our fingers in our ears and go “la la la” for awhile.

Comment #19: Antigone  on  08/02  at  09:27 PM

To paraphrase Lenny Bruce: Where do the determined sluts hang out? I’m dying to meet them!

Comment #20: Bitter Scribe  on  08/02  at  09:31 PM

Yeah, I have found that the pretty strictly monogamous relationship is my style. However, I have friends who ask such questions as, “I just don’t understand. How can you have a long-termmonogamous relationship?” And she was serious! She just is on a completely different wavelength from me and my wife. She and her husband are just about our closest friends back home these days, and are part of a distinctly non-monogamous crowd (that many of our friends are part of).

While they don’t understand our desire for monogamy, it’s not something we’re going to be angry at each other over. We just live in different ways, in that one little respect, and in the rest our values are very similar and compatible.

Comment #21: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  08/02  at  09:52 PM

Amanda wrote:

We got into a Twitter battle over this, and I kept trying to get Susan to define a “slut” for me, based on the universally understood idea belief that you’re a slut once your Number gets over a certain point.  Realizing she wasn’t going to win any friends settling on a number, Susan dodged the question,

On the old Mary Tyler Moore Show, back in the seventies, Mary asked Lou Grant, her boss, how many men a woman could sleep with before she became “that kind” of woman.  He thought for a moment, and then answered, “Six,” and walked away.

Comment #22: Dana  on  08/02  at  09:56 PM

murdered like in that movie with Diane Keaton from the 70s

Annie Hall’s darker than I remember it being.

Comment #23: Ferox  on  08/02  at  10:04 PM

And Mary Tyler Moore blanched at the number of six men as the definition of slutatood.

But perhaps Susan could tell us where the hell are all the men who would agree to marry a woman they hadn’t slept with?

Even my father (born in 1923) who followed the ethos of the times and married two women he hadn’t slept with first (in 1947 and 1962), for the third go-round in 2004 married a friend, who after they both became single, was his lover, first.

If a 79 year-old man wants both a friend and lover as a wife, I can’t imagine there are scads of more modern guys who want to take pot luck in marriage, especially if they have to pretend to be in love to get it.

Comment #24: judybrowni  on  08/02  at  10:12 PM

The ‘70s film in which Diane Keaton played a slut murdered for her fun is, of course, Looking for Mr. Goodbar.

Comment #25: judybrowni  on  08/02  at  10:15 PM

3letterjon @ #8, I am in the exact same boat wrt relationships (minus the penis, i suppose) and it does suck and it does hurt and I can sort of see why someone would want to pretend there is a formula of how to live that would help one figure it out. However it seems that thinking there should be a one-size-fits-all prescription for love is so immature. I just don’t understand how Ms. Walsh, presumably an adult, has so little life experience that she hasn’t seen that different things work for different people, and hasn’t experienced how hard it is to find a dating pattern that works for you.

Comment #26: alysia  on  08/02  at  10:23 PM

This is just another manifestation of the conservative incapacity to even comprehend the idea of tolerance and compassion.

Comment #27: Punditus Maximus  on  08/02  at  10:41 PM

What an image: all those ‘determined’ sluts marching into bars, hoisting teh menz over their shoulders and marching back out while the Good Girls stand by open mouthed, and subsequently dateless.

Did your image include the name of these bars?  Inquiring Minds Wish To Know.

Comment #28: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/02  at  10:52 PM

I know this keeps on being mentioned here very often, but it does amaze me every time how conservatives can claim feminists are man-hating monsters, while at the same time portraying men in the worst possible ways.

And they do believe it, too (well, some of them at least); I know this because when I was younger, I also didn’t really believe that men were capable of real love, or of wanting a family and children. I was actually stupid enough to mention this to a gay man who was telling me about an ex-boyfriend who had wanted to settle and have kids. Very awkward moment.

Comment #29: jadehawk  on  08/02  at  11:13 PM

Yes please, inquiring minds do want to know.

Comment #30: Lee  on  08/02  at  11:22 PM

What an image: all those ‘determined’ sluts marching into bars, hoisting teh menz over their shoulders and marching back out while the Good Girls stand by open mouthed, and subsequently dateless.

lol If it was that easy, we could all just take up weightlifting and have as many men as we wanted!  Two in each hand!  Grab a fifth in your teeth!

Comment #31: fluffster  on  08/02  at  11:25 PM

What’s a Susan Walsh, and why is she so angry that other women are enjoying sex and not suffering for it?

I love the giveaway of “fuck like men”. Gee, no issues there about sex being dirty and shameful and something nice ladies only do to please their men.

Comment #32: mythago  on  08/02  at  11:59 PM

But now they just suck up all the cock, leaving none behind for the ladies who like to wait it out a little.

maybe a little comes out the side of… oh never mind!
I’m giggling over this sentence like crazy. It’s true that certain types assume this and hilarious that they get other people to believe it. And also funny.

Comment #33: Danica Lefse Queen  on  08/03  at  12:09 AM

The reference to Mr. Goodbar reminds me of a capsule review of Species: Alien meets Mr Goodbar.

Leaving that aside, I think Ms. Walsh’s real issue isn’t that she wants a long term relationship and “sluts” make that difficult to achieve. The bit about sluts competing for men with “good game” is a giveaway. If her real focus was on a long term relationship, she be thankful for the sluts. They would sweep away all the men looking for casual affairs like a top offensive line clearing a path for a running back and she’d be able to pick from a clear field of monogamous men. There are men who are more interested in long term relationships than casual affairs. Some will be attractive and emotionally compatible for her and not all will be Mormons. The problem is she doesn’t want one of those men. She wants to convince some Casanova to settle down with her proving she can beat out all the other women. In other words she wants a conquest, not a marriage. No wonder she’s upset.

Comment #34: infornific  on  08/03  at  12:16 AM

I love it when conservative prudes drop Oxytocin Bombs. They almost sound like little doctors! Adorable. Elaborate on any subject of brain chemistry besides that single word, and enjoy the vacant stares and cocked heads.

I’ve seen someone attempt to oxytocin bomb a chemistry major. The resulting bloodbath was spectacular.

Comment #35: kaje  on  08/03  at  12:39 AM

Info, I don’t think she believes men can want love. They want sex, and unless you hold back the sex, they won’t offer “love”. Quotation marks, because I don’t believe that it’s love unless it’s offered freely. And lots & lots of men want love.

I think in the real world, the categories “want love” & “want casual sex” aren’t mutually exclusive. Nor does someone who wants love but sleeps around doomed. It’s common to have your fun while waiting forlov.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/03  at  12:53 AM

Wow, this Susan person sounds completely unhinged on Twitter. I just hate the way all those conservative faux-feminists jump out with the “it hurts women” line the second they figure out that most women like to have sex without feeling guilty about it. Thanks for the concern, but I think each one of us is pretty capable of figuring out what those hurtful things are to us. Women aren’t the Borg. And the way she condescendingly keeps diagnosing Jaclyn as miserable and unhappy is just infuriating. Folks here pointed out that she hates men. True, but people like her just really hate other people and the possibility of others experiencing pleasure (or love without manipulation).

Comment #37: elena  on  08/03  at  01:01 AM

where the hell are all the men who would agree to marry a woman they hadn’t slept with?

Mother Avenger reported that half of the Notre Dame Girls High School class of ‘54 got married after they graduated, but they were Catholics, I’m sure their Protestant and Jewish counterparts were a bit more free than that.

Comment #38: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/03  at  01:09 AM

I don’t think she believes men can want love. They want sex, and unless you hold back the sex, they won’t offer “love”. Quotation marks, because I don’t believe that it’s love unless it’s offered freely.

Yeah, the faux love that men supposedly regurgitate (if women play them just right) is pretty well sketched out by the same myths: Not too much sex and not enough and he will bring home a paycheck, not call you fat, hold your purse once in a while if you’re doing something else, skip what he really wants to be doing to visit your mother, provide a limp and derivative “romantic” gesture on anniversaries/Valentines day/your birthay; and if you’re really really good at playing him he’ll do something like grudgingly go to the bridal expo/shopping for antiques/watch romantic comedies with you.

That is the group of behaviors people like Walsh call “love” (if it comes from men). Like you I call bullshit, of course. And it leads to the saddest situations where women with men who supposedly “love” them want nothing more than for those men to act like they LIKE them, a little bit, once in a while. Sort of. Or at least don’t actively loathe and avoid the company of their girlfriend.

Comment #39: kristin  on  08/03  at  01:10 AM

I keep remembering something my aunt once said (not to me, but to my father, her brother-in-law, who later told me).  She said that she was really, really glad that she had slept with a lot of men.  Why?  Because in the process she learned a lot about herself and about what she really wanted from a partner.  No regrets, no self-pity, no emotional trauma.  She’s been happily married for a number of years now—she married and had a child in her 40s, giving the lie to the canard that women are used up and undesirable by that age (as if!). 

But, no, according to Susan Walsh, my aunt cries herself to sleep every night over all the time she wasted not trying to land Mr. Right and having to settle, instead, for…Mr. Right. 

Um…well, no matter.  Just you wait!  There’ll be Heck to pay!  Heck, I tell you!

Comment #40: Captain Bathrobe  on  08/03  at  01:18 AM

Snu-snu?

“We hear tell men used for Snu-snu. But all we have go on are ancient legend and subscription to Cosmo.”

Poor Kiff, so sweet, shy, sensitive, romantic and uninterested in sex with strangers. And all he gets is the love of the hawt girl who slutted it up in the past and isn’t ashamed of it.

Comment #41: shakahi  on  08/03  at  01:26 AM

I wondered who the heck Susan A. Walsh was. And the internets did not fail me: She’s all about training women how to use their sexuality to manipulate men:

Susan A. Walsh is the woman behind HookingUpSmart.com which aims to support young women in their search for meaningful relationships by providing strategic insight and guidance as they manage their social and sexual interactions with men. This is a site where girls can read about, talk about and even laugh about the realities of the hookup scene as they learn helpful strategies for reclaiming the upper hand with boys to get the relationship they want

Comment #42: Hector B.  on  08/03  at  01:41 AM

Interesting.  You praise Amanda for a long piece on women’s right to choose what they want and be comfortable or uncomfortable with casual sex, and it’s *your* conclusion that women should be obligated to like casual sex.  Perhaps you should shut your pie hole.

That- wait.  What?

I’m saying the exact same thing Amanda said.  No one has to choose anything.  But if this sort of thing comes up in conversation, the young women I work with don’t even conceptualize it as an option.  Never has there been even a hint of suggestion from any of them that they grasp why it’s appealing to some people, but for whatever reason they’re not inclined to pursue it themselves, or that they’ve so much as thought about it as opposed to giving an automatic “ew” reaction.  And that reaction also comes from far less than the idea of casual sex.

To be clear, I’m not being critical of them.  They’re in the 19-23 range, and I grasp that they’ve probably learned to react that way because only “bad girls” would be into casual sex, seeing hot naked dudes, hickeys, etc.  But that makes the fact that it happens even sadder.  They should feel free to contemplate it and do what they think will make them happy without so much negative weight laying on one side of the scale.

Re-reading my comment, I think my wording was a little odd, but I’m still not sure how you got more than that out of what I said.

Comment #43: Spiffy McBang  on  08/03  at  01:55 AM

Hell, speaking as a straight man I wouldn’t be displeased with Matt Damon, some wine, and some cushions laying about.

Dammit, all you slutty straight-but-agreeable guys are sucking up all the Matt Damons that us nice girls could be having! You bastards!

Also, you’re apparently using up the wine and cushion supply! Must you leave us nothing? How will we non-sluts have our turned-to-lesbianism-in-desperation-due-to-lack-of-men orgies without these? Without wine, how will we primly drink ourselves to tear-stained sleep? Without cushions, where will we keep our multitude of cats?

Comment #44: Bagelsan  on  08/03  at  02:03 AM

Y’know, I’m generally one who prefers monogamy*, if for no other reason than the fact that keeping up with multiple partners is more hassle than it’s worth, because I’m fairly introverted and find constant socializing exhausting anyway.  And I’ll even grant that sex is very often used as a bargaining chip, although IME that’s much more a signature of long-term partnerships than casual ones.  But it does not follow that all people are, or in any way should be, as boring as I am.  Really, I think the key issue here is that all of us—not only “sluts”—need to be pretty self-aware and realistic when negotiating sex and relationships.  Women (and men, of course) who flounder and try on personae that don’t fit, who expect that adopting a stock character will produce a standard plot resolution of some kind or another, will more often than not find themselves miserable at some point, because they’re relying on dumbass narratives to navigate a non-scripted world.  And that’s at least as much the case for marriage-minded “good girls” as it is for self-described sluts, IMNSHO… we’ve all known the utterly predictable types who ended up divorced and bitter because neither life nor other people follow the parts as written in someone else’s head, after all.  I despise people who insist that a traditional sex-for-social-validation model is perfectly safe, when it’s almost certainly fucked up people’s lives at the same or higher rate than a slut/hookup/free-love/whatever model.  Concerns over unsafe or thoughtless behavior aren’t wrong, after all; pretending that a system of withholding and denying intimacy for security is unquestionably better absolutely is wrong.

*that said, I just ended a rather embarrassingly long period of celibacy with someone who probably has more potential as a good friend than as a partner, and who also has a long-distance FWB thing going at the moment.  It’s not my favorite way to operate, but the burgeoning friendship was also at risk due to sexual tension, so it seemed smarter to risk both types of potential relationships while being honest than it would have been to pretend that one was too important to even consider the other.  Anyway, I’m actually less anxious about him than I was a couple of weeks ago, which is clearly not The Way It’s Supposed to Be.  So there.

Comment #45: latts  on  08/03  at  02:10 AM

Dammit, all you slutty straight-but-agreeable guys are sucking up all the Matt Damons that us nice girls could be having! You bastards!

Presumably, Matt Damon must be an ultra-fag, as opposed to all the straight-but-agreeable guys attempting to suck him <strike>off</strike>up.

This might come as a surprise to Sarah Silverman.

Also, you’re apparently using up the wine and cushion supply! Must you leave us nothing? How will we non-sluts have our turned-to-lesbianism-in-desperation-due-to-lack-of-men orgies without these?

Traditionally, locker rooms.

(If the signature literature of our formative years, bad porn movies, counts as “tradition”)

Comment #46: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/03  at  02:30 AM

#43: Spiffy, take heart: it took me forever to figure out how your comment was pretzeled around enough to be taken poorly.

Snu-snu, yesssss. 

As to the names and addresses of the Determined Slut Army taverns and bars, SORRY!! For some reason I never got the X-Files version of Photoshop that lets you zoom in forever on any random photograph.

Comment #47: Eric_RoM  on  08/03  at  02:37 AM

Good show, Amanda. It’s easy enough to get the mouth-breathing trolls around here to paint themselves into corners, but it’s a greater feat to get a pseudo-feminist concern troll like Susan Walsh to do the same.

Susan: there are straight men who are interested in long-term, exclusive relationships—far more than there are NSA types like me. In other words, if you’re simply looking to get the “upper hand” with a guy (because FSM forfend that relationships involve honesty and equality), there’s plenty of low-hanging fruit out there.

Comment #48: Gracchus.  on  08/03  at  02:46 AM

By the way, Jaclyn’s Friedman’s well-written article could have the alternate title of “The Responsible Grown-Up’s Guide to CL Casual Encounters.” But then again, she’s an adult, unlike certain little girls who look at sex as just another tool for “reclaiming the upper hand with boys to get the relationship they want.”

Comment #49: Gracchus.  on  08/03  at  02:53 AM

I love the confirmation bias happening on her blog. 

Susan Walsh clearly has issues with premarital sex (and admits she used to frown upon such encounters, but has since “relaxed” her standards) and most especially with casual sex. She clearly thinks that women cannot truly enjoy casual sex without it being a pathology and that women who engage in casual sex are damaged gods.  She also thinks that sex is a transaction and that men don’t love women unless coerced by denied access to sex.

And she wonders why she never hears from the multitude of women who have had casual sex and been just fine? Or why she doesn’t hear from men who feel like the expectation that they are supposed to only be interested in casual sex has made them miserable and led them to have sex earlier than they were ready for?

But clearly, it is simply biological that women cannot have casual sex and men must have it.  No social conditioning at all.  Ignore the man behind the curtain.

Comment #50: history_mom  on  08/03  at  02:55 AM

Come on, people, she’s just doling out common sense. If she doesn’t reiterate “a man won’t buy the cow when he can get the milk for free” for the 86,409,237 time so far this week, who will?

Seriously, too many people make a very good living from mindlessly regurgitating sexist cliches.

Comment #51: snobographer  on  08/03  at  02:56 AM

More and more, I loathe the term “common sense”.  Apparently, it is simply repeating old prejudices ad nauseum so that another generation can be raised with the same fucked up ideas as previous generations and be miserable when they fail to conform to “common wisdom”.

Comment #52: history_mom  on  08/03  at  03:06 AM

Re-reading my comment, I think my wording was a little odd, but I’m still not sure how you got more than that out of what I said

It might have been your emphasis about how you aren’t out to bone them, and you have to be pretty dense not to see it.  Every advance in letting women have the choice to be sluts or not inevitably leads to the message that any woman who chooses not to be a slut is a prude and that it’s “unfortunate” and “sad” that she hasn’t embraced how she “should” be.

Comment #53: keshmeshi  on  08/03  at  03:25 AM

And, really, why do you fucking care whether or why they choose not to embrace that option?  Perhaps you should mind your own business AND shut your pie hole.

Comment #54: keshmeshi  on  08/03  at  03:26 AM

@52 I hate it too. Once somebody breaks out with that one, you can all but preempt everything they’ll say next.
Men need women for sex and housework. Women need men for money and protection.
Mars/Venus, man-cave/shopping, blue/pink, Tonka Trucks/baby dolls, horny/lovelorn, etcetera

And they’ll argue that stereotypes and cliches exist because they’re true. They will not see their way out of that loop.

Comment #55: snobographer  on  08/03  at  03:45 AM

Even going back in my father’s family, sex before marriage resulted in marriage for two of the five brothers and sisters in the 1940s.

My aunt Ginny got pregnant and “had” to get married. Which may go a long way to explaining her surprisingly positive attitude in the 1970s to legalized abortion.

It was commonly believed in the family that Uncle Bill married Aunt Rhett just before he shipped overseas because she’d “seduced” him.

Aunt Grace withheld sex from Uncle Tony so he was forced to marry her (she was quite the pretty and personable catch, and all he had was money.)

What a surprise that as it turned out, she was only interested in a comfortable marriage, and not a shared marriage bed.

The twin beds she bought after the birth of their one child were gossiped about, and despite the suspiscion that uncle Tony played around, Aunt Grace didn’t divorce him until he nearly gambled away every bit of the property she’d come to own after she went to work when her daughter went to college.

No gossip about Aunt Lena before marriage, but Uncle Tommy then proceeded to chase everything in a skirt after their marriage, including the nieces.

My father also abstained from sex with his first two wives before marriage, but that in itself can’t be blamed for the train wrecks both marriages eventually became.

Possibly one of the reasons I never married is because I didn’t see one marriage in my family that I would want to be a part of: but Miss Susan would have approved of those bad bargains where the women traded their virginity for a ring, although they turned out no better than the forced marriages after hasty sex.

But that’s the sexual era Miss Susan would have young women emulate now.  Sorry, honey, but I saw the fall out from that era’s sexual repression and it was not pretty.

Comment #56: judybrowni  on  08/03  at  03:48 AM

Whether they had sex or not before marriage, those marriages of the 1940s in my middle class family, they shared one aspect: none of the particpants had had the experience of a relaxed history of dating that had included a variety of sexual partners before marrying, young.

On the other hand, my brother and sister each had a number of sexual partners of both sexes in the late ‘60s and mid ‘70s, and each then settled down to happy relationships that have lasted over three decades.

But then again, they’re both gay, and have been denied marriage, so that they’ve got that going for them.

Comment #57: judybrowni  on  08/03  at  04:06 AM

I spent a good chunk of my early and mid twenties living in punk houses with piles upon piles of straight guy roommates (among others). I can’t even count the number of times the same story played out:

1) Male roommate hooks up with a woman who clearly says she wants casual sex/isn’t looking for a relationship/is auditioning him as a friend with benefits/only wants to date casually.
2) Dude rejoices. ‘I’m getting laid and I don’t have to commit? This is the best thing ever! She’s fucking awesome! I hope this lasts forever!’
3) Woman follows through with her clearly-stated intention to not get into an LTR with the dude, usually in a friendly, don’t-take-it-personally kinda way.
4) Male Roommate is crushed. Spends weeks wondering if she was The One, moans about how he’ll never find such an awesome partner again, and spends way too much time in his room crying, drinking crappy beer, and playing video games before getting over it. 

So much for the men want sex/women want love stereotype. These guys think they just want sex, because that’s what they’re told they want (and sex is usually a thing they want out of relationships) I saw it a lot in college, too, with young guys trying to figure out how relationships work, and not understanding why women don’t automatically fall for them every time they show a little genuine interest. I think a lot of guys are so surprised to find they have actual feelings for the women they date, they completely overreact and assume their feelings are more serious than they are. Or they’ve been trained to think women are all desperate to find a guy that has any actual feelings for them, and when they think ‘Score! I’m that guy!She has to love me!’ they don’t understand how the object of their affection could be uninterested.

Comment #58: impossibletospell  on  08/03  at  04:50 AM

From the Susan Walsh page:
“Anyone who regularly dismisses a large body of peer-reviewed academic studies in this area is as ridiculous as a member of the Flat Earth Society.”
I’ve tried making this same comparison about climate change deniers, and they just got offended.

Also it’s fairly easy to test if the Earth is or is not flat. Testing the effect of hormones on humans, a species which combines hormones, social demands, conscious reasoning, subconscious desires, and random wtfness in their responses to stimuli? Okay good luck interpreting those results. You’re gonna need a lot of (insert your favourite statistics package here) to figure out what results are worth publishing.

Anyway, by her logic, I take it that Susan Walsh does not dismiss the evolutionary connection between all species, including our own. Since a large body of peer-reviewed academic studies shows that we’re just balding bigger brained apes. So she must know that oxytocin is known from multiple mammals, not just our own species, and it probably affects them and we in similar ways, since, really, our brains and rat brains aren’t fundamentally different.

So. Since oxytocin is required for both sexual arousal and bonding (somehow Susan wants to discuss the latter but not the former effect) then that means our brains, like those of rats, need the same hormone to get off and to want to partner with someone who gets us off. Which makes logical sense: if we find someone who gets us off, we will want to continue getting off with them. If we really want to get aboard Susan’s thought train and declare that hormones rule human existence, then people commit so they get laid more. How romantic.

On the other hand, oxytocin is also released when we get ourselves off… This must mean that our evolutionary impulses want us to just sit around fantasizing about Matt Damon all day.

PS Kaje @ 35 I want to hear more about the oxytocin + chemistry major story. Please?
PPS Does the Susan Walsh story have a reason for including a picture of Jaclyn?

Comment #59: artiofab  on  08/03  at  06:03 AM

It might have been your emphasis about how you aren’t out to bone them

That’s what did it?  Hell, my entire purpose for putting that in was to make it clear I wasn’t suggesting they should embrace sluthood or whatever, and to put some distance between what I was trying to say and any possibility it would be taken as a lecherous dude thinking about how great it would be if his co-workers just wanted to bone all the time.

And, really, why do you fucking care whether or why they choose not to embrace that option?  Perhaps you should mind your own business AND shut your pie hole.

Jesus.  Alright, I’ll try once more, and I hope this comes through:  I DON’T GIVE A SHIT WHAT THEY DO.  What I care about- and this applies to pretty much every aspect of life, not just this topic- is that people take the time to think about what’s out in the world, what possibilities exist, and make a conscious decision to explore or not explore whatever they want.  And if there are unjust mitigating circumstances that prevent someone from doing that, that’s a problem and it should lead to people talking about the fact it’s a problem.

I don’t try to push people around me into doing anything specific.  I push them to think about what they’re doing.  Whatever they finally choose is their business.  If that’s somehow a bad thing, I’m deeply curious as to how.

Comment #60: Spiffy McBang  on  08/03  at  06:20 AM

I find that if I assume women to be virginal angels then they are.

Comment #61: ewellone  on  08/03  at  06:43 AM

Snu-snu?

I’m a little late to the party on this, but I can hear Walsh thinking, “Men…love?  Women…have fun NSA sex?  Does not fempute!”

Comment #62: Zombie, Lord Tennyson  on  08/03  at  07:23 AM

“Basically, all women are prostitutes who sell our pussies in exchange for a feigned expression of love.  We’re supposed to want this because, shit, I have never figured out why.  Because women are delusional, I guess, and will accept fake love in exchange for sex.”

No, no, no!!!  Don’t you listen to Christian radio??  We women do this because, deep down, all of us (every one of us, every last single one) want….

A Bayyy-Beeeeeeeeeee!

Gee…I thought you knew that!  </sarcasm>

Comment #63: VollyfromtheBlog  on  08/03  at  07:39 AM

I find that if I assume women to be virginal angels then they are.

I’d be more inclined to believe you if a certain nice church-going Christian who dislikes smutty humour and suggestive music hadn’t rung up earlier tonight and given me a booty call.

Comment #64: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/03  at  07:51 AM

As far as I can tell (n=1 and all that) sex does tend to strengthen my bonds with people, but in most cases the bonds come first. But note those plurals: bonds, people. I can have an intense few days with a long-distance partner, lots of our time spent in bed, then come home and be as strongly connected to the guy I live with as ever. Maybe moreso: all that good sex makes me generally happy, and that good mood is good for my other relationships.

But I suspect that Walsh really doesn’t have room in her universe for multiple committed relationships.

Comment #65: rosvicl  on  08/03  at  08:42 AM

Bagelsan @#44, you made me giggle immoderately.

Actually, the whole comment section is making me giggle, which is bad, because I’m at work and trying not to disturb my co-workers with mad cackling.

Amanda, great article, and thanks for fighting the good fight (on Twitter, no less).

Comment #66: attack_laurel  on  08/03  at  09:11 AM

Excellent post, Amanda. The idea that there’s a magic way to never get hurt is ridiculous. The most hurtful relationship and break-up I ever had was barely sexual.

I’ve slutted it up a bit before too, and Jaclyn’s right - it can be a positive thing for certain people, at certain times. If I’d never done so, I wouldn’t be as confident in, or as comfortable with, monogamy and commitment as I am now.

Comment #67: MissPrism  on  08/03  at  09:17 AM

PS Kaje @ 35 I want to hear more about the oxytocin + chemistry major story. Please?

Seconded!

Also, cheers, artiofab, for the info on oxytocin.

Comment #68: Nic_C  on  08/03  at  09:39 AM

Hector @42: The sad thing is that it can’t be the relationships they want, even!.  Like kristen @39 said, the desire is a permanent partnership with someone who actually love-loves you, which includes an element of liking you, and not rolling their eyes and only doing things with you under duress, because otherwise the sex could dry up.  Part of what people like Walsh do to sell their schtick it emphasize over and over again how it’s impossible to find a man who actually likes you.  That’s why it’s so critical to Walsh to imply as frequently as possible that a man will never, ever stay except under duress.  The idea is to get you to this point where you feel you have a choice between being alone or settling for someone who condescendingly puts up a show of love in order to get his dick wet.  It’s a really bleak picture. 

The other tactic is to mock feminists for saying we want more from male partners, to paint us as naive.  At the end of the day, I have to say that the scam is a lot like the Glenn Beck Goldline scam—-scare women into accepting a worldview that isn’t real, and then offer them a solution that enriches you at their expense.

Comment #69: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/03  at  09:40 AM

Anyone who regularly dismisses a large body of peer-reviewed academic studies in this area is as ridiculous as a member of the Flat Earth Society.

I wish someone could point these out to me!  All I’ve ever seen is a few small studies that show that a variety of experiences release oxytocin, not that oxytocin is the same thing as love or that it overwhelms things like, “I think they’re hot and fun to fuck, but I can’t carry on a decent conversation with them to save my life.”

Comment #70: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/03  at  09:49 AM

No, no, no!!!  Don’t you listen to Christian radio??  We women do this because, deep down, all of us (every one of us, every last single one) want….

A Bayyy-Beeeeeeeeeee!

Of course, you can make that transactional without the fake expressions of love.  Hell, now you can buy sperm outright.

Comment #71: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/03  at  09:55 AM

Of course, you can make that transactional without the fake expressions of love.  Hell, now you can buy sperm outright.

Not good enough for your typical Libertarian—the economic transaction ideally must be as close to zero-sum as possible, with the woman getting screwed both literally and figuratively. Walsh is different only in that she’s proposing it’s the man who gets conned.

Comment #72: Gracchus.  on  08/03  at  10:06 AM

I kept trying to get Susan to define a “slut” for me, based on the universally understood idea belief that you’re a slut once your Number gets over a certain point.

That idea is FAR from “universal.” To me, a “slut” isn’t just someone who’s had a lot of partners. It’s someone who doesn’t care in the slightest who those partners are, someone for whom sex is her entire raison d’être, someone who can’t relate to men on a non-sexual level, someone who will do anything, including things she wouldn’t otherwise want to, in order to get partners and thereby achieve validation.

Comment #73: ttintagel  on  08/03  at  10:19 AM

@ttintagel, your definition of a slut sounds to me like a woman who has been traumatized and needs some professional help.  I think calling someone who sounds like they are in a great deal of pain, a slut, is a bit cold.

Comment #74: JennyLI  on  08/03  at  10:27 AM

Tin, in other words, a straw slut. You’ve raised the bar so high the word is rendered meaningless. Unless, of course, you have a fucked up definition of “relating to men”, one that involves submission or something.

Where do lesbians fit into your odd little definition?

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/03  at  10:32 AM

*I* don’t call ANYONE a slut. I’m just saying it’s not as simple as having a lot of partners.

Comment #76: ttintagel  on  08/03  at  10:32 AM

To me, a “slut”

*I* don’t call ANYONE a slut

But you managed to come up with your own definition anyway.

Comment #77: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/03  at  10:48 AM

Thanks for writing this Amanda. (And for the Twitter war).  Susan Walsh quoted my response in her piece, and I let myself get baited and write some “in the moment” response in the comments on her piece. My silly angry comment is no match for the hatred coming from her supporters on that site, and I don’t care to engage them again. (Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice…)

But I’m glad to see that there are people sticking up for Jaclyn, and by extension, me.

Frankly, the only thing I have to say to Susan Walsh right now is this old Yiddish [removed]or curse) which translates roughly to something like this….

“You should grow like an onion with your head in the ground.”

Comment #78: Leahbee  on  08/03  at  11:34 AM

I’m pretty sure I’d qualify as a slut under most people’s definitions (not ttintagel’s), but I don’t like the word and have no interest in reclaiming it. I prefer “hussy.” It just seems more good natured to me - saucy and mischievous. More representative of my attitude towards sex. I’m in my late 30s, and I do think it’s easier to negotiate this space as a woman gets older. Sometimes I think about how much more and better (not to mention sober) sex I could’ve had in my 20s if I had then the same level of comfort with who I am and want I as I have now.

As for The Number… just, No. Sexual intercourse is not a commodity that one needs to account for.

Comment #79: vladimir  on  08/03  at  11:49 AM

Don’t let the bastards grind you down, Leahbee. I wouldn’t have had the guts to write as honestly as you or Jaclyn did, but thank you both for daring.

Comment #80: MissPrism  on  08/03  at  11:59 AM

These stereotypes are hurtful on so many levels.  I’m a woman and a few weeks ago I met a guy that I was interested in having NSA sex with, and I thought the was interested in the same thing.  So even though I’ve been a “slut” for 10 years and know that the stereotypes aren’t really true, I was still surprised to find out that this particular guy only likes to have sex in the context of a more serious relationship.  Of course I respect his choice and I understand that every person is an individual who wants their own path in life.  But because of our fucked up culture, I’ll admit to having doubts about what he really said.  I mean, it’s every man’s dream to have NSA sex, right?  And if he doesn’t want that with me, then maybe he’s just making an excuse and he’s actually repulsed by me.  Something that should have been a very minor event turns into a crushing rejection when you layer in those stereotypes about men.  And I’m sure that’s a feature of the scheme, not a bug.  If I dare to want casual fun sex, then my punishment is to assume the very worst when things don’t work out so I’ll be discouraged from trying again.  And it’s a pretty good tactic too, because if I weren’t a feminist and therefore dependent on validation from men, it might have actually worked.  I’m thankful that I can see people as individuals with different desires so every choice they make isn’t all about me and my implied failures as a woman.

Comment #81: bananacat  on  08/03  at  12:15 PM

I got divorced in February, but I’ve been sexually partnerless for a year now, and I am heartened by Jaclyn’s essay. I am not up for Craigslist Casual Encounters (yet), but with each passing month, I feel more courageous about getting out there and getting some. I support sluttery!

Comment #82: maurinsky  on  08/03  at  12:15 PM

Here’s a scary story to tell in the dark.  My brother has a friend,let’s call him “X.”  X has spent his life sampling religions.  So, he’s joined various religions for a time.  Recently X started attending a Christian church, and met a lady there with two kids.  Well, somehow X found himself with a “surprise pregnancy” on his hands.  (I told my brother, “How does that happen in the modern age?  Seriously? A surprise pregnancy?  Did we travel back to the 1930s while I wasn’t looking?”)

Well, obviously, X “has no choice” but to marry this woman and buy her a house.  Now, this woman is a Believer and worships The Lord, and X now finds himself in what sounds to me like his own personal Hell.

So, X calls my brother the other day, whispering into his phone, furtively, “She’s making me get rid of my DVDs.” 

Apparently, The Sopranos and British Gangster films are not approved of by the Lord.  (Which surprises me.  Have you read the Lord’s book?  I would think gangster films would be right up His alley. )

Now, my brother met X when they attended film school together and planned on a future making movies together.  So, to me, this is like this lady is ripping out part of X’s soul, and eating it.  So, now, I plan to work with my brother to determine the parameters of X’s prison sentence.  (“Ok, can he watch cartoons?  Would, say, Despicable Me be ok?”)

This just makes me happy that my long term partner is a witty, inelligent woman who loves Tarantino movies (seriously, Kill Bill is her idea of a chick flick). 

Oh, and we both slept around a lot before we got together, though that’s between us and our boss, Lucifer, who may be evil but at least isn’t going to make her get rid of her Sopranos and The Wire DVDs.

Comment #83: pauls  on  08/03  at  12:35 PM

Nic_C @ 68 , everything I wrote about oxytocin is on wikipedia, so I once again thank it for being smart so I don’t have to be. Also, someone in Susan’s comments gave a much smarter and more succinct statement about oxytocin.

In the case of oxytocin, it’s poorly understood even among endocrinologists, and has as much to do with breastfeeding as with intercourse, yet nobody claims that women who breastfeed will lose their ability to bond with subsequent children. In the case of evolutionary psychology, the field has been riddled with poor science and just-so stories, and has been even more disserved by antifeminists misreporting findings to support essentialist nonsense about gendered behavior — in fact, almost all human behavior is a mix of biology and culture that is extremely difficult to disaggregate, and out physical dimorphism far, far outstrips our behavioral dimorphism. I recomment Pink Brain, Blue Brain for a real rundown on the science, and people treating slight differences as polar opposites instead of natural variations has a lot of drawbacks.

Leahbee @ 78 Good for you on for fighting the idjits on their own turf. Even when you don’t win, it’s good for them to see that not all humans accept their version of reality. Besides, you get to learn new weird insults, such as “river troll”.

Comment #84: artiofab  on  08/03  at  12:46 PM

I was most intrigued by this passage in Walsh:

As an aside, note the switch to men. Though Ms. Friedman identifies as queer as of today, she went trolling for heterosexual sex. She says that her trauma history means she “still has triggers to manage,” and she states on her site that she was sexually assaulted in college. I’m in no position to untangle this skein, but it certainly raises questions about her motivation in seeking men on Craigslist.

It’s not just a swipe at being queer but a willful misunderstanding of queer as meaning lesbian (and thus Friedman has somehow deceived herself about her “real” orientation).  And it’s a not-so-subtle suggestion that her slutiness is motivated by trauma and/or mental illness.  Nice.

Comment #85: pennylane  on  08/03  at  12:56 PM

Aunt Grace withheld sex from Uncle Tony so he was forced to marry her (she was quite the pretty and personable catch, and all he had was money.)

What a surprise that as it turned out, she was only interested in a comfortable marriage, and not a shared marriage bed.

Here’s the issue: Is the woman (or man) who doesn’t want to have sex before marriage doing so out of ethical convictions? Or is it that s/he has little interest in sex? (Or sex with the opposite sex, etc.) In the olden days, adolescent guys would use physical attributes as a proxy for how desirable a sex partner the woman would be: pretty = satisfying sex partner; big boobs = satisfying sex partner; cute butt = satisfying sex partner. None of which is a marker for anything, of course.

Comment #86: Hector B.  on  08/03  at  01:40 PM

Who would want a man that fawns over sluts, fakes love for some poon, and high tails it with a wake of misery?  A delusional nut job. 

I imagine men and women who hold out for love first also have a check list in their back pocket with all the desirable qualities they want in a partner, necessary steps to attain a perfect relationship, and the password to their super secret wedding of the century scrap book. 

I surfed my options and it was liberating.  I had ground rules, no married men, no one with kids, and always safe.  One day, I stumbled upon a man, that in one conversation, I knew “this is different” .  When that feeling overcame me, I took my time.  I knew if I surfed him I’d be risking my heart.  By the third date I knew we were on the same page.  Once we both understood what was on the line, we went for it.  Ten years of marriage later, neither of us regret any of our choices. 

Sluthood is not exclusive of loving relationships, nor is it pass to screw now ask questions later.  Someone who is truly embracing their heart will, as Amanda said, be able to recognize the difference.

A close friend who swore I’d regret marrying after only a few weeks, and regularly feigned disapproval for my life, did it all “the right way.”  Love first, long engagement, big wedding, finish college, get established, have kids.  She didn’t even finish college before it collapsed.  She faulted the sluts he worked with for it.  I faulted the delusion that “there’s a right way”.  She’s still doing it the right way and in some ways I think she’s probably missed her chance for true love.  It may have been the guy bartending at her wedding (hired help is off limits), the cute delivery guy that she turned down (no college), or the next door neighbor that washed her car on Saturdays “since I was right there anyway”  (not her type).  Eventually she’ll settle for good enough with another checklist phony and as we grow further apart, always wonder what could have been.

Comment #87: Com-wife  on  08/03  at  01:47 PM

A close friend ... did it all “the right way.” Love first, long engagement, big wedding, finish college, get established, have kids. 

I realize opinions may differ across generations, but for at least the past 30-40 years or so, “finish college” comes before “big wedding” in the “right way” roadmap.

Comment #88: Tyro  on  08/03  at  02:16 PM

So I went to this Susan person’s blog and found that she’s a writing coach with an MBA who has styled herself as a relationship expert.  I had to stop reading her posts because they were making me feel stabby.  But what’s really sad is that she seems to have a following of commenters who hang on her every word and have user names like “Reformed Tomboy”.  Susan could at least come right out and admit she’s a reactionary anti-feminist but she couches her views in modern lingo.  I find her to be judgmental and immensely unlikeable and I’m guessing so do most of the guys who date her.

Comment #89: DonnaDiva  on  08/03  at  02:43 PM

Thanks for this article.  As a guy I never had to think about my “number” or what it would mean if I had too many partners.  Then again I’ve always been a monogamist, and always in lengthy relationships, so I probably wouldn’t have gotten flak if I was born a girl.  Although it sounds like I would have been made aware of the dangers of sluthood, something I was spared growing up.  No one ever talked to me about my reputation, for example.  It feels like I’m reading about some alien civilization; it’s very disturbing to realize it’s my own.  Um, yay privilege?  =/


This might be a dumb question, but is there anything I can actually *DO* to help with this kind of stuff?  It all feels so overwhelming, and all I do at this point is read, learn, and get depressed over how shitty things are.

Comment #90: copper  on  08/03  at  02:57 PM

The bloodbath went down thusly: we had a classmate we dubbed Sabrina the Catholic Witch (her beliefs were a weird mix of New Age and the former) and of course she knew everything. One day before class premarital sex came up, and she proceeded to tell us all about how frequent sex makes you immune to oxytocin’s effects and will make you incapable of love. 

Chem dude, a quiet fella who wasn’t involved in the convo beforehand, was like “O RLY?”. He then grilled her on receptors, other triggers of oxytocin, etc. (Needless to say I’m not a chem major).

She sputtered and finally said , “well, I don’t know all about that other stuff. I’m no brain surgeon.”

To which Chem Dude replied, “then maybe you ought to shut your goddamn mouth” and turned his attention back to his book.

I have a whole bunch of stories involving the Catholic Witch. She was so easy, yet satisfying, to pwn.   

Comment #91: kaje  on  08/03  at  02:59 PM

kaje,

I sympathize so much with that chem major.  I have to deal with the “quantum” bullshit that gets spouted all the time, but I’ve never handled it with such thoroughness and brutality.  I’ll try to remember that approach next time it comes up.  “Then maybe you ought to shut your goddamn mouth”, indeed!

Comment #92: themann1086  on  08/03  at  03:12 PM

I’m curious why Susan put Jaclyn’s picture in her post (You know, using first names is direct but I wonder if it diminishes the thought put into the comment…ah, well, something to ponder another time).

Are people (I assume a higher percentage women) supposed to look at that picture and think something in particular?  Is the picture supposed to humanize the subject or tickle the inner “Look at her.  She has to be an unhappy slut because I can see…”

The picture is an invitation to judge, of course.  I admit it, I’m sorry, I’m a guy.  Whether it’s my upbringing, society as a whole or the testosterone, I look at the picture and make the instant decision about whether I would or would not.

Female friends of mine tell me pictures, such as those on the covers of magazines, invite women to judge and compare, particularly whether the viewer wants to like what she sees and possibly emulate.  Somehow, it just seems like that picture is there for women to look at and say, “I don’t like that woman and I don’t want to be like her.”

(Shrugs shoulders)  And, yeah, guys sometimes think sex is a sign of a relationship starting and are crushed to find out that was wrong.

Comment #93: algebrateacher  on  08/03  at  03:14 PM

I am quite sure this vile Susan person included the photo as a shaming tactic.  Which is kind of an odd thing to do when the object of the shaming has already declared that she is not ashamed.

Comment #94: Laurie  on  08/03  at  03:28 PM

Late in the comments, there was a rash of “she’s a fat ugly whore” comments, some of which were deleted and some left in place.

I got in a bit of a battle in the comments over there and the sticking point is basically that Susan doesn’t believe Jaclyn. She has her preconceived notions that casual sex leaves someone a shriveled wreck of a person, so that must also apply to Jaclyn. It’s outside the realm of possibility that she is actually happy and sharing her experience with anyone receptive to the message; she must be miserable and crying out for validation.

It must be really weird to just not listen to people. My approach to discussions like this (shaped in no small part by reading this and other feminist blogs) is to listen to people and try to understand their story on its own terms. If I can’t do that, I chalk it up to the narrowness of my experience.

My favorite part of the comments was this:

Grerp: “Apparently we now need a way to express that we are not transgendered.”
Clearly, we needed to get people on that urgent vocab lack, and thank God someone was up for the task. Cisgendered – pffft.

Me: If you only have a word for difference from the usual, and not for the usual itself, you imply that the difference is negative, shameful.

Grerp: If you allow yourself to be pressured into using the made-up lexicon of others, you allow them to dictate the terms of the conversation.

Can’t have anyone but white bitches dictating the terms of the conversation.

Comment #95: eldepeche  on  08/03  at  03:29 PM

Well, someone pointed out towards the end that Susan actually admitted in one of her comments that many (Many!!!) women have casual sex and move on to good long-term relationships.  Soooo, why pick on Jaclyn? Because Susan is oh-so-concerned for her??? I don’t get it.

Comment #96: Laurie  on  08/03  at  03:48 PM

There’s an episode of Dr. Phil on (NOT my choice) right now where he’s attempting to shame a sexually-active 14-year-old girl who seems somewhat more annoyed at people trying to shame her than the fact that she’s allowing herself to be used (especially as she’s turning around and telling Phil to his face that she uses them right back and actually has trouble brushing some guys off).

Now I don’t thin 14-year-olds should be having sex, but if it was my daughter I’d dump a copy of The Guide To Getting It On and a box of condoms in her lap and tell her not to do anything stupid. But watching Dr. Phil talk about her alleged lack of self-esteem when she doesn’t actually have any obvious self-esteem issues—well, that’s why I don’t plan on watching the rest of the show.

Comment #97: BrianX  on  08/03  at  04:17 PM

#97 BrianX- Me and my therapist are both in agreement that Dr. Phil is one of those most aggravating people on the planet.

It probably goes double for him, since he’s great at his job, and Dr. Phil is so…not. He knows I have esteem issues and a NSA approach to sex, but he’s never accused me of having the latter because of the former.

Comment #98: kaje  on  08/03  at  04:26 PM

@97

I saw a brief bit of that where he had some bullshit criminologist (who probably got their degree in like 1976) on telling this young woman and her mother that the daughter’s tattoos would lead to a life of crime and were a big cry for help, and the daughter was trying to explain about self-expression and was getting upset.

I was watching this and thinking “when the fuck did we go back 30 years?”

I generally count on these people dying off and letting social progress occur.

Comment #99: Sivi  on  08/03  at  04:39 PM

#88, Yeah, generations change.  At the time we were both quite young, and I’m sure impatience rearranged her timeline.  Who wants to get married later when they could do it in the hot bod of a 21 year old?

Frankly, I don’t care if they meet over the internet and get married via hamm radio.  If its right, do it, but don’t count on preconceived ideals to guide you to that perfect partner and don’t let other’s expectations make decisions for you. 

I think the slut versus monogamy argument is one of those elephant in the room fights.  If one group cares soooo much about what all the others are doing, they’re missing their own lives.  The question shouldn’t be about who’s giving out for free, the questions should be “why do they care?”

Comment #100: Com-wife  on  08/03  at  04:42 PM

Dr. Phil is an interesting character. I think he does have a very deep understanding of *certain* parts of the human mind, but that’s because he’s a PR guy and before his TV gig, persuasion was what he did for a living. While persuasion is an important part of the advice-giving gig, you still need an understanding of the things you’re giving advice about, and although I don’t think he’s quite as big a scumbag as, say, Dr. Laura, he’s definitely too old-school for what he’s doing. He really needs to go back to school for social work or something.

Obviously, I’m not fan.

Comment #101: BrianX  on  08/03  at  05:09 PM

#93- I was struck by her putting up Jaclyn’s photo, too. I suspect its to emphasize that she is making this personal. Its not about what Jaclyn has to say, but about her personally. Someone last week also had a pro-shame response and shows the same pattern of obsessive repetition of Jaclyn’s name. Every point was tied back to her personally. Posting her photo is done to expose her on a more personal level than the unearned familiarity with using her first name. I use her first name because I’m friends with her. She was at my wedding. When I made my retort to Susan, though, I made a point to reference her in a more formal manner specifically to counteract Walsh’s dismissive personalization.

Beyond all of that, I think you’re right that this invites judgment of her physically. It would be incredulous for Walsh to claim ignorance of that outcome, even if she doesn’t want to get her hands dirty with it directly. Sure enough, several commenters have responded with petty and infantile attacks on her appearance simply because its a way of expressing their desired dominance over her. I’m surprised eldepeche says some were removed, as what Walsh has left up is just horrid in its own right and speaks very poorly of herself for not even responding to that garbage. She may not be making the vicious snipes herself, but she clearly condones them through her inaction. Just part of a long-history of trying to discredit feminists by mocking their appearance.

I keep wanting to point at that Jaclyn looks quite nice in the photo, but that’s really not the point at all. The point is trying to exploit the vulnerability that comes with self-expression. What she looks like doesn’t matter at all to the people picking her apart. They’d be doing it no matter what she looks like. Its just about dominance and intimidation. Even if Jaclyn isn’t driven back, they hope it makes other women more reluctant to speak out. Its as much an attack on Jaclyn as a threat to others.

Comment #102: BStu  on  08/03  at  05:23 PM

@copper (#90)

>This might be a dumb question, but is there anything I can actually *DO* to help with this kind of stuff?  It all feels so overwhelming, and all I do at this point is read, learn, and get depressed over how shitty things are.

I’d say the big thing to do is not to buy into the slut narrative when it comes to the women in your own life. Listen to how they describe their own experiences and don’t judge—encourage them to define their own happiness and well-being, regardless of what the culture says about them. And be supportive of their right to define their own experience when the culture does inevitably judge them for stepping out of line.

Another thing you can do is call bullshit on your male friends who talk about women as sluts or otherwise reduce women to objects. Ann Friedman has a great article about this in the American Prospect right now.

Comment #103: annajcook  on  08/03  at  05:30 PM

One particular comment calling her a whore was removed, but the following was fine:

Jaclyn Friedman apparently posed for a calendar with other fat women back in 2008. I saw this photo linked on another blog. I think that Friedman is the third obese woman from the left: http://www.bigmoves.org/images/rc_poster_med.jpg

I think her time would have been better spent at the gym instead of having sex with random weirdos whom she met on Craig’s List.

Comment #104: eldepeche  on  08/03  at  05:32 PM

eldepeche:

Well, there really wasn’t much point to you bringing that up, now, was there? Because it, like, doesn’t really matter.

Comment #105: BrianX  on  08/03  at  06:43 PM

Ooops. Misread. Not much point to *the original writer* bringing it up.

Comment #106: BrianX  on  08/03  at  06:43 PM

There is an even worse fat shaming comment there, too. Of course, that’s like grading which rotten egg stinks the most. Its a distinction without much consequence.

Comment #107: BStu  on  08/03  at  06:51 PM

Comment #29: jadehawk on 08/02 at 10:13 PM

I know this keeps on being mentioned here very often, but it does amaze me every time how conservatives can claim feminists are man-hating monsters, while at the same time portraying men in the worst possible ways.

That’s only contradictory if you assume that men aren’t entitled to be the way they describe them.

Comment #108: sacundim  on  08/03  at  07:46 PM

Oh man, I had to torture myself by reading some more of that wannabe Dr. Laura hack’s site.  Susan and a couple of her commenters rilly rilly love Evo Psych and are VERY defensive about it.  Which just gives more credence to my theory that it’s a secular religion to its adherents.  And it totally pisses them off when people are unimpressed by their verses of Scripture lines about oxytocin and biology.

Comment #109: DonnaDiva  on  08/03  at  10:03 PM

I think her time would have been better spent at the gym instead of having sex with random weirdos whom she met on Craig’s List.

As if there weren’t enough fail in that comment already, I had gotten the impression that, calorie-burning-wise, no her time wouldn’t be better spent doing anything but sex. I’m told that shit gets your heartrate right up. :D

(Yeesh. So sluts get all the men, cushions, wine and good cardiovascular health? Lucky fuckers!)

Comment #110: Bagelsan  on  08/03  at  10:38 PM

@annajcook (#103): Thanks for the article.  It was like a flashback of my first boss: oh-so-polite when other people were around, but whenever it was just the two of us I got a marathon of racism, sexism, etc.  What was especially creepy was that I was still a teen, and since I had a very sheltered upbringing I think I spent most of these private moments in wide-eyed shock.  Who knows, maybe that was what made it entertaining for him.  I definitely didn’t have the guts to say anything, in part because he was my dad’s friend from high school.  When confronted with a similar boss at my last job I was a lot better about disagreeing respectfully, although I still found our exchanges frustrating.  Oh well, at least getting laid off had a silver lining - I haven’t had to talk to that asshole in over a year now!

Comment #111: copper  on  08/03  at  10:47 PM

kaje @91 thanks for sharing the story. smile

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Comment #113: q1111  on  08/04  at  06:16 AM

Dark Avenger, it’s not a definition I sat, thought about and came up with on my own. It’s the definition I was socialized with; it’s the one that the people I know in real life were socialized with. Honestly, until yesterday I had never, ever heard anyone used the word based *solely* on number of partners. To me, that seems like calling someone a drunk based *solely* on the fact that he is in the habit of having a glass of wine with dinner most nights.

That can be the tricky part about slang words – they often have different shades of meaning depending on the user and the listener, and it can lead to misunderstanding.

Comment #114: ttintagel  on  08/04  at  09:04 AM

ttintagel, I don’t care where you got it from, it’s still a stupid and ignorant definition of a word that shouldn’t be used in the first place.

Comment #115: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/04  at  10:46 AM

eldepeche adds fat-shaming to slut-shaming.

But to me Jaclyn looks pretty hot in her swimsuit. So the fat-shaming fails.

Comment #116: Hector B.  on  08/04  at  12:00 PM

Hi, thanks, I didn’t write that. I posted that example in a discussion of how shitty Susan Walsh’s regular commenters are and what gets deleted and what doesn’t.

Comment #117: eldepeche  on  08/04  at  12:19 PM

I imagine men and women who hold out for love first also have a check list in their back pocket with all the desirable qualities they want in a partner, necessary steps to attain a perfect relationship, and the password to their super secret wedding of the century scrap book.

Or, you know, we’re just different from you. God, I know that’s almost IMPOSSIBLE to fathom, but try to stretch your brain a bit.

(I suppose technically speaking I don’t hold out for LUUUUUUUURVE first. In truth it goes the other way: unless I have some emotional attachment to you—not wild insane Twue Wuv, but attachment still—I have no INTEREST in fucking you.)

Comment #118: Well, what?  on  08/04  at  12:26 PM

unless I have some emotional attachment to you—not wild insane Twue Wuv, but attachment still—I have no INTEREST in fucking you.

Cosign. Sex isn’t something I’m so interested in that I’ll do it casually (ditto buying opera tickets or going backpacking for a week or whatever else people who aren’t me find thrilling.) If someone I loved or at least liked a ton wanted to do any of those three activities I’d probably be agreeable and even enjoy myself quite a lot, but left to my own devices I am fine going without fucking/opera/extended backpacking trips. And I’m not going to casually go to the opera or backpack with people I barely know. :p

I think it’s just a personality thing, a lot of the time. I tend to form only a few close friendships, I have a few family members I’m very close with, and it’s not shocking that I would not be out having a lot of casual sexual relationships too.

Comment #119: Bagelsan  on  08/04  at  02:43 PM

eldepeche: If you want to allow your readers to distinguish between your thoughts and the quoted thoughts of others, you might want to think about using quotation marks.

Comment #120: Hector B.  on  08/04  at  02:52 PM

In my experience the likelihood of a one-night-stand depended on how novel the guy was and how unlikely it was that the woman would ever see him again. If women were not exactly notching their bedposts, they were adding pages to their mental scrapbooks. My French-accented Berber friend in grad school once asked me, plaintively, why so many of the Midwestern women he met in bars wanted to go to bed with him.

Comment #121: Hector B.  on  08/04  at  02:58 PM
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