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Next entry: There Is A Bit Of Perhaps Not To This Previous entry: More Steele and RNC follies

Non-funny satires and how we even know how to spot them

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I haven’t seen “The Watchmen”, but I’ve read it, so if you haven’t done either, spoilers.

I didn’t get to see “The Watchmen” when it opened, because I was traveling, so I have tickets to see it late tonight so you can have a proper review tomorrow.  I’m looking forward to it, since it got such mixed reviews, which means that you really do have a chance to decide for yourself who’s crazy and who isn’t.  But I have to say, there’s one indication that “Watchmen’s” bid for world domination might have run into a huge obstacle, which is that it’s being marketed as a straightforward superhero movie, and many people who watch it are bewildered and upset by it.  For instance, Antigone at Punkassblog finds the movie incredibly upsetting, because she didn’t realize going in that it’s a send-up of superhero movies. And thus she makes the mistake of assuming we’re supposed to identify with the protagonists, which isn’t the worst assumption to make, since that’s true of 100% of superhero movies before this one, I’m sure.  And if you watch the movie assuming that you’re supposed to be siding with Rorschach and the Comedian or even Dr. Manhattan, I suspect you will wonder what kind of topsy-turvy fucked up world the writers and producers of this story live in.  That’s her reaction:

The movie seems to be pretty harsh on “liberals” as well, though I don’t necessarily know what that says about the politics of the creator. At best, they are seen as ineffective and weak, derided as “Intellectual eggheads” and at worst they are seen as a force to destroy society (we see a hippy mob protesting the masks, for one, which the Comedian gleefully starts shooting with tear gas.) Nixon doesn’t come off looking good, but he doesn’t really come off looking bad either…...

There is a lot of sexism in this movie. The Comedian is a way over the top example, but Rorschack seems pretty fond of calling all sexual women whores, and Dr. Manhattan breaks up with his long-time girlfriend because she aged.


In another post, she decries the fact that Silk Spectre both I and II wear ridiculous, skimpy costumes, and of course that the first Silk Spectre is the victim of an attempted rape.  (We argued about this in comments, and it really isn’t the point of this post, but Antigone really wanted to see Silk Spectre flip out and whomp the shit out of the Comedian, which would, in my opinion, be a completely ridiculous fantasy and go against the grain of the entire story.  The point of the character Silk Spectre is that she is not a superhero, but that she has a talent for self-promotion that is actually more relevant than superstrength or some other fictional power would be.)  All of these points and hopes and fantasies are completely valid when referring to a modern, straightforward superhero movie.  Should Catwoman be unable to defend herself in the next Batman movie or should Batman start railing against evil liberals, I’m going to get angry.  But the point of “The Watchmen” is that it’s about juxtaposing the myth of the superhero with certain ugly realities, and the conclusions reached—-especially about how the profession would attract mostly sociopaths and self-promoters, how women’s success would be related to their sex appeal over their skills, how sexism and homophobia would still touch you even if you were a masked vigilante—-strike me as entirely realistic.  But this post isn’t about the themes of the story, which I think I’ll be able to explore more in tomorrow’s review.

No, I think my question is how do you characterize a story like “The Watchmen”?  I called it a satire at Punkassblog, but it’s not funny in any way, shape, or form, so it’s not recognizable as a satire, even as it fills all the other requirements.  It plays with common tropes and exposes them to a dark form of ridicule, or at least examination.  The other movie that comes to mind that’s analogous is “No Country For Old Men”, which uses the format of a crime thriller to question the narrative structures of a crime thriller, particularly the way that your typical crime thriller uses the darkest parts of humanity to guide you to a place where you feel pretty good about yourself and the main characters.  Instead, you’re asked to consider violence something to truly despair over and identify with a protagonist who has no power in the world to stop it.  Needless to say, the book of “The Watchmen” does the same thing, except I think Alan Moore is overtly hostile to comic book conventions, whereas the Coen Brothers were just trying to look at the same kind of movie from a different angle in “No Country”. 

Is it satire when it’s not funny?  I think that’s the best word for this kind of story-telling, even though it’s actually pretty rare (maybe commenters can come up with some more examples).  Because it’s rare and because it doesn’t give you yuks to fall back on and comfort yourself, I don’t think something like “The Watchmen” is going to be able to translate to audiences who aren’t already primed for a bluntly post-modernist assault on comic book superhero traditions.  The movie is being marketed as a straightforward superhero movie with “dark” overtones, but that doesn’t mean a whole lot to potential audiences.  Superhero movies have played with conventions and played on the dark side for awhile now, but that doesn’t mean that they’re all that subversive. 

Take “The Dark Knight”, for instance.  Really enjoyable, and I think they explored some interesting territory with the reimagining of the Joker character.  But anyone who thinks that movie was subversive is kidding themselves.  Even the scene where Batman breaks his own moral code and spies on people (just this once!) to finish his job is something of a false dilemma, added to increase the darkness of the tone and the suspense.  Batman ends up being right, of course, and our faith in the character is never really in any danger.  More to the point, when compared to “The Watchmen”, our faith that superhero movies are about putting our allegiance with the hero is never shaken.  The whole flipping of Two Face is far from subversive, but standard genre fiction fare.  Not that there’s anything wrong with any of this.  Most of us can only take so much delving right into the heart of darkness, and glancing off it in order to add some spice to escapist fare is much more manageable on a regular basis.  That said, it needs to be examined on occasion, and Moore did everyone a great favor by asking some hard questions in “The Watchmen”. 

But will it translate?  The issue with storytelling is that falling into a narrative has the potential to be very disconcerting.  Storytellers of any sort try to throw up a lot of signposts to indicate exactly what sort of story they’re about to tell, so you the audience will be ready to accept it for what it is.  If you start to see the pacing and cinematography of “The English Patient”, but then everyone breaks into song and dance, you won’t know what the hell is going on.  With books, you can throw a lot of curve balls, because the reader can skip back and figure it out.  But I don’t know so much about movies.  So “The Watchmen” has a real obstacle to communicating to the audience, which is that every signifier it can lean on has been used by other movies, especially “The Dark Knight” to indicate a dark superhero movie that has some uncomfortable scenes in it, but is fundamentally not going to question the narrative conventions or break down the fantasy and throw it in your face.

In the book, the attempted rape of Silk Spectre is deliberately hard to understand.  It doesn’t fit into either neat box assigned narrative rapes, which is that they are either a way to take a female character down a few notches or they’re a plot device to allow the male characters (or, in some cases, like “Buffy the Vampire Slayer”, the female character herself) a moment to act boldly and decisively to stop the rape.  No, in “The Watchmen”, the assault ends up playing out like it does in real life, as does the gay-bashing incident.  People don’t like it, but they don’t really do much about it.  Even the victim herself can’t contextualize what happened and ends up engaging in self-defeating behaviors that are inexplicable to outsiders.  It doesn’t make us feel very good about ourselves.  But in that sense, I think it’s highly responsible, because both misogynist representations of rape and uses of it as a point of heroic intervention distract from the reality at best, or in many cases, reinforce victim-blaming narratives.  I don’t know how it turns out in the movie, but I’ll report back.  The point is that it’s deliberately resistant to traditional narrative tropes about rape, because the whole point of “Watchmen” is to alternate between questioning and laying waste to these traditions.  Thinking back to the book, it really is a scorched-earth approach.

Can such non-funny satires ever really take hold at the cineplex?  I don’t know.  Perhaps there will be enough conventions that build up around questioning conventions that we audience members who sit down to watch it will be able to catch on much quicker.  Right now, I’d say there’s a definite language that movies draw on to let you know that they’re more about other narratives than about their own story—-hyper-stylized language, set design, costumes, etc., or at least a mugging, comical tone that tells you not to take anything you see too seriously.  Critiquing narrative conventions like “Tropic Thunder” does with broad satire is easy to understand.  Even “Pulp Fiction” does it by embracing a hyper-stylized approach to pretty much every element of the film to signal to you loud and clear that you are not watching a conventional mob movie.  But can a more straightforward use of conventions to deliver an unconventional and upsetting story work? 

I don’t know.  After tonight, I’ll have a better idea. 

 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:54 PM • (263) Comments

This is the smartest thing I’ve read about Watchmen. I wonder just how many people will understand it at the cinema. I don’t think I would have unless I read it or something like this first. Thanks for offering it out.

Comment #1: JulesATX  on  03/10  at  07:06 PM

There’s a couple things you have to keep in mind. 

Firstly, Watchmen was written in the 80s.  So you have to take the book in that stride, written at the end of the Regan Revolution, when “The City on the Hill” wasn’t looking too hot after two recessions, Iran Contra, and the rest.

Secondly, Alan Moore is deeply conservative.  So before you write him a blank check of artistic license on the homophobia and the sexism and the embrace of violence as an acceptable solution to all our problems (the scene where Roschrach hacks up the child molester screamed “Wingnut Fantasy”), keep in mind that he’s not diverging all that far from his actual beliefs.

And thirdly, it’s one man’s view of the world.  In Watchmen, you’re taking a look through Alan Moore’s eyes.  If you don’t like what you see… well… that’s hardly a bad thing.  Moore is something of a curmudgeon.  Watchman isn’t portraying Moore’s ideals.  They’re portraying his fear and disgust.

I do think the movie did a damn good job of recapping the book.  They had a few substantial cuts (the whole Black Frigate bit is out, and The Minutemen subplot is reduced to the intro and a few minutes of flashback), but that’s hardly a bad thing in a 3 hour movie.

Bottom line, I liked the comic book and I liked the movie.  Totally worth my $9.

Comment #2: Zifnab  on  03/10  at  07:11 PM

I remember a lot of people misundertanding the comic when it first came out—some of my buddies truly admired Rorschach.  In a way that kind of disturbed me.

He’s portrayed in a way that makes you empathize with him, sure, but it’s pretty clear that the guy is truly a psycho and you’re meant to understand that.

Comment #3: Dr. Locrian  on  03/10  at  07:12 PM

I think Alan Moore is overtly hostile to comic book conventions

Oh yes he is.  He was, as I recall, rather explicitly trying to destroy superhero comics.  Unfortunately about all that the industry took from it was to make more conventional superhero comics Darker and Edgier (giving rise to Frank Miller’s career, alas).

Comment #4: kaninchen  on  03/10  at  07:13 PM

Yah, excellent take on Watchmen. It really isn’t a superhero comic, in the normal sense. Something’s fundamentally different.

Comment #5: atheist  on  03/10  at  07:14 PM

Wait a minute, Alan Moore is deeply conservative?  That never came across to me in any of the interviews of his I’ve read, and I’ve read plenty of them over the years.  Conservative in what way?

Comment #6: Dr. Locrian  on  03/10  at  07:14 PM

Thanks for pointing out the shallow nature of The Dark Knight. It promised, I think, a lot of what Watchmen grappled with but ultimately failed to follow through. The Dark Knight left everyone happy while allowing viewers to congratulate themselves for watching something that was “deep.” (I liked The Dark Night, it’s just not the best movie ever, or even the best comic book movie)

Comment #7: Tyro  on  03/10  at  07:17 PM

I thought Alan Moore was just deeply weird.  When I think of conservative beliefs, vegetarianism, anarchism, and occultism don’t immediately spring to mind.  Not to say he isn’t capable of shocking my sensibilities, but I don’t think conservative is the right term.

Comment #8: semi_factual  on  03/10  at  07:23 PM

I’ve always loved Watchmen BECAUSE it’s so hard to figure out and almost none of the characters are likable (much like true life, eh?). The movie does a great job of portraying this even though they do change the ending (don’t worry, it doesn’t change the “moral” of the story).

Comment #9: Mark  on  03/10  at  07:24 PM

Zifnab, you’re the first person I’ve ever seen describe Moore as conservative (let alone “deeply”).  He made it quite clear, for example, in his foreword to V for Vendetta that he’d written it out of disgust with the (conservative) Thatcherism that had turned Britain colder and less welcoming.  I haven’t read it in a bit, but I’m pretty sure he specifically cited anti-immigrant sentiment and homophobia as among the bad things about it.

Comment #10: smadin  on  03/10  at  07:27 PM

giving rise to Frank Miller’s career, alas

Now that you mention it, Frank Miller has basically made his career on appealing to fans who thought that Rorschach was an admirable character.

You have to think, on some level, that Watchmen failed as a piece of art: we didn’t suddenly “snap out of it” when it came for our affection for comic book superheroes. We simply rethought them in a way that made us imagine the sort of characters you find in Watchmen to be heroic.

Comment #11: Tyro  on  03/10  at  07:29 PM

The way they marketed it was a problem… there were CRYING CHILDREN in the theater for my screening. More than one.

I’m not for keeping kids from seeing R-rated stuff out of hand, but seriously… you don’t take kids young enough to cry to an R-rated movie where you have no idea what is going to happen. Part of that, though, is the studio’s fault for not making it more clear—NOT CAPED CRUSADERS having a party.

Comment #12: humanadverb  on  03/10  at  07:32 PM

I’ll buy “Alan Moore is deeply sexist”; but “Alan Moore is deeply conservative”? Given that he self-identifies as an anarchist/socialist (V was, IIRC, an attempt at self-critique, looking at where the desire for anarchism could lead a guy) and wrote rather explicit denunciations of Reagan and Thatcher, I don’t see the use of that claim.

I think some of the points in the first part of Amanda’s commentary are addressed by SEK here.  A big problem with the movie, if I understand the descriptions I’ve read correctly, is that iit doesn’t give you any positive figures, not even the Alan Moore Regular People (the Bernies, the Longs, the lesbians) that figure so prominently in the book’s conclusion.  If so, it’s like doing V for Vendetta without Mr Finch.

Comment #13: Josh  on  03/10  at  07:33 PM

you start to see the pacing and cinematography of “The English Patient”, but then everyone breaks into song and dance, you won’t know what the hell is going on
Like that dance at the end of “Slumdog Millionaire” ? UGH!

Comment #14: Renmiri  on  03/10  at  07:34 PM

Well, I felt like it kind of destroyed the Superhero Movie, right as Superhero Movies were entering a golden age.

Not one member of the Watchmen is sane.  Silk Spectre is a cipher meant for plot progression more than a real entity unto herself.  I haven’t read the books, so I don’t know how faithful that representation is, but I left thinking Nite Owl was the only decent person of the bunch, and even he was willing to let evil win in order to attain World Peace.

Rorschach?  Psychopath.
Comedian? Psychopath.
Ozymandias? Psychopath with a cool, unexplained, kitty who manages to wig out another psychopath.

and a bit more of the ultraviolence than I care for, malchiks.

Silk Spectre, as I said, was just a fantasy cipher with little more human about her than Dr. Manhattan.

And for “regular humans” they all sure had super strength.


As for conservative vs. liberal…this is a world where the conservatives win, and it’s a hell on Earth.  Bad enough that the smartest man on the planet is willing to kill off millions in order to ‘save’ it from itself.

The Comedian says that he thinks the country would have gone crazy if we’d lost Viet Nam.  Looking at his world, it apparently went crazier when we did.

I’m not sure that that message will carry over for a significant portion of the audience.  I thought the whole movie was a subtle dig at conservatives, but also too subtle for most.  I easily see people thinking Rorschach was right and a great guy.

Me?  I left feeling like Genosha is a great idea That Nathan Petrelli’s plan to round up all mutants, whether or not they’ve committed crimes, is awesome.  Get rid of all of these self-styled “heroes” b/c they have to be fucking nuts to do what they do.

I did like the movie; I just don’t see the need to see it again.  And I need to put it out of my head so I can enjoy Hugh Jackman in “Wolverine”

Comment #15: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/10  at  07:35 PM

“And I need to put it out of my head so I can enjoy Hugh Jackman in “Wolverine”

The previews for that DID look great. Now back to the topic at hand…

Comment #16: Mark  on  03/10  at  07:40 PM

I’m looking forward to your review, and I’ll be by to add my two bits in the thread (I have a lot to say about the botched ending…).  As for the topic at hand:

I’m not surprised that a lot of people don’t “get it” when it comes to the story’s themes and purpose, particularly if those people’s knowledge of super-heroes doesn’t extend past seeing the blockbusters of the last few years.  If you walk in to the theater expecting something along the lines of Spider-man you’re bound to be disappointed, if not disgusted.  The book itself got similar reactions when it first came out, though possibly not so severely since everyone reading any comic at that time would be familiar with the superhero tropes and conventions that Watchmen skewers. 

That said, the movie does have a great deal of unneeded graphic gore and sex scenes, which is made more frustrating by the way that scenes of sex or gore that are in fact vital to the story were cut out!  I’ll get into that more later, but someone not familiar with the source material could easily take the movie as a celebration of fascism and blood’n'guts.

As for whether satire needs to be funny, well, I don’t recall A Modest Proposal being a laugh riot.  It was, in fact, widely misunderstood and considered ghoulish and vile.  Possibly, making satire into a funny joke takes away much of the impact it might have.  Going back to Swift, part of the formula was to make people outraged about eating Irish children, leading to a realization that letting them starve was no better.  The question is whether Watchmen is really a satire or just a deconstruction of its contemporary comics.

Comment #17: Jrod  on  03/10  at  07:42 PM

I think Amanda will be pleased with the way they handle the complexity of the source material, especially around Silk Spectre I. I was very impressed.

I had a lot of trouble with the book, though, because it is a NOVEL, not a COMIC BOOK. And a novel that is packaged in this other medium of comics never really worked for me. I know that today it comes as the largest trade paperback every assembled, but the original release was 12 issues. How do you tackle something as complex as Watchmen 32-pages at a time (or was it 22?), once a month, over the course of a year? I believe that there were problems with the medium that made the brilliant ideas and characters Moore was trying to convey harder to access.

And I thought the movie, by stripping some stuff out (the Curse of the Black Freighter, for example) and working harder to fit the source material to the new medium, actually improved on the original.

My answer to Amanda’s concern that the cineplex may not be able to handle so much complexity: really, this isn’t a cineplex movie. At 2h45m, Watchmen defies the film genre as much as the original defied the comics genre.

God, Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns have so little in common that I can’t paint them with the same “graphic novel” brush. In fact, Watchmen is the only work I apply that term to, and I kinda use it as a pejorative.

Comment #18: humanadverb  on  03/10  at  07:44 PM

Sorry, ha, but I don’t blame marketing for idiots taking children to R-rated movies. 

The R rating is much much harder than it was when I was a kid, unless, of course, it’s rated R for sex.  Then it’s probably a perfectly fine movie.  I’d let my 8 y/o son watch “Wimbledon” any time; he’s still not allowed to watch the Spiderman movies.  I’m a serious believer in desensitivity—once you see something violent, it’s not so hard to see it a second time, and then harsher violence isn’t that much worse.

I prefer my children to be innocent and sensitive.

But there are a whole slew of parents who want to see a movie and don’t want to pay for a babysitter and won’t let the kid “cramp their style”.  They don’t bother to check out the ratings or reviews for age-appropriate violence.

The whole PG-13 rating was invented because Steven Spielberg has a beating heart yanked out of the chest of a living sacrifice in his Indiana Jones sequel.  People took their kids thinking it was PG like “Raiders of the Lost Ark ” and were therefore not expecting human sacrifice.

Part of the reason I won’t rewatch “Watchmen” is the violence.  There were times I just couldn’t look—hot oil in the face?  No thank you.

Comment #19: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/10  at  07:45 PM

From the previews I figured they were going to try to make it an “action” film because filming the book as is (even more so than they did) would just be boring for people who aren’t fans of the novel. Snyder did exactly that and while I understand it was necessary, one of the big points of the novel was that, aside from Dr. Manhattan, none of the minute men or crimebusters (though they’re actually called Watchmen in the movie) had super powers but in the film they’re presented with super strength and speed.

It will be interesting to see what you think, Amanda, about the music cues as well. I saw the film twice at Arclight in Hollywood, at the midnight showing and then again on Friday and both times audiences laughed at the music choices, especially the scene between Dan and Laurie.

Over all, especially for the first viewing, I was utterly underwhelmed by the experience.

Comment #20: UltraMagnus  on  03/10  at  07:45 PM

I think Zifnab is mistaking Moore for Miller. Alan Moore is a practicing occultist (he reputedly worships a snake god) and deeply obsessed with mystic symbolism and history. This makes for some weird, very dark story telling but nothing applicable to the left/right bipolar scale politically. Frank Miller is the misogynist conservative, reputedly writing a third chapter of the Dark knight, in which Batman beats up Osama Bin Laden.

Anyway, yes, Watchmen has an awful lot of baggage that made me wonder if it it will really grab an audience not already heavily invested in the tropes and concepts of the super hero genre. My wife liked it, and hasn’t read the graphic novel but I’d prepped her beforehand. It will be interesting to see how my brother-in-law like sit, as he has no real experience with Watchmen.

Comment #21: Keith  on  03/10  at  07:45 PM

Caren, it is a pox on both your houses blamefest in my mind.

Parents should be smarter than that, you’re absolutely right.

They’ve also sold Watchmen as something that it isn’t, which has its own role in too-young kids in the theaters, and probably a lot of the shit reviews, too.

Comment #22: humanadverb  on  03/10  at  07:47 PM

>deeply conservative

“He is a vegetarian, an anarchist,[18] a practicing magician and occultist, and he worships a Roman snake-deity named Glycon, which he acknowledges to be a “complete hoax”“
-wikipedia

“Politically, I’m an anarchist.”
-Alan Moore

tell the one about how animal farm is pro-capitalist next

Comment #23: anonlololol  on  03/10  at  07:48 PM

Keith, don’t forget either that Moore is an expat and Miller is a drunk. Illustrative details, I think.

Comment #24: humanadverb  on  03/10  at  07:49 PM

I think it would be referred to as revivalist or revisionist, but it’s been a while since I’ve paid any attention to genre studies. I see the DC/Vertigo wave as being something like spaghetti westerns of the superhero world. Except it was more bubble and squeak than spaghetti. Lots of manipulation of genre conventions, lots of experiments involving the medium itself, and the imitators mostly copied the surface elements without learning anything.

What saddens me most is how the Watchmen film is receiving so much criticism but truly racist crap like 300 received a free ride, more or less. It does explain the last eight years though.

Comment #25: bjza  on  03/10  at  07:49 PM

I’m unsure about the ‘sexist’ Alan Moore. I think he’s willing to take risks with his feminine characters that fail mostly for being his raised and born where he was. I think the effort is sincere and genuine. Lost Girls, Abby Cable, Promethea, Halo Jones are all fantastic comic heroines. They are not perfect, they sometimes don’t “overcome.” I have a feeling the film’s directors stopped at the “isn’t this cool” part of Watchmen and never delved any deeper than an Amazon commentary.

Comment #26: dooflow  on  03/10  at  07:51 PM

Ozymandias? Psychopath with a cool, unexplained, kitty who manages to wig out another psychopath.

Yeah, the kitty is totally explained in the graphic novel because it ties in with Ozymandias’s obsession with “creation” and ties into the original ending of the graphic novel which has nothing to do with Dr. Manhattan.

Comment #27: UltraMagnus  on  03/10  at  07:52 PM

Test.

Comment #28: Jesse Taylor  on  03/10  at  07:52 PM

I don’t buy into the sexist Alan Moore idea, either. As much as Silk Spectres were both sexual ornaments in Watchmen, I think that has more too do with genre commentary than his own politics. Consider, too, the very direct way he brings up objectification of super-heroines through rape, and then makes everything about that just as ugly and complicated as real-world rape can be.

As a counter-argument, look at the role of Mina as leader of his League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Who they then cut, pretty much entirely, from the film adaptation, replacing her with a vampire chick and handing over leadership of the posse to Allan Quartermain. That’s sexism at work… and notable that Hollywood felt the need to delete Moore’s original female character.

Comment #29: humanadverb  on  03/10  at  07:57 PM

Isn’t part of the point of Watchmen (I haven’t read it, but know it a little through the osmotic effect of being friends with self-identified comix and fantasy nerds) that you’re kind of _supposed_ to fall into the trap of reading it as a straight-up superhero saga, and then you go for a creepy ride that dares you to try to maintain your usual superhero-saga moral compass?  In other words, isn’t Antigone’s reaction very much part of the design of the material?

Comment #30: FlipYrWhig  on  03/10  at  07:58 PM

Keith, don’t forget either that Moore is an expat and Miller is a drunk. Illustrative details, I think.

The comments are coming faster than I can hit “refresh” Ahh!

But, maybe funny story, I was at Comic-Con last year and we were at the panel with Kevin Smith, Judd Apatow, Zack Snyder and Frank Miller, who, for some unknown reason, Comic-Con had declared a “visionary” for his (at the time) upcoming Spirit movie.

While Smith and Apatow were funny and enjoyable, Snyder couldn’t put a sentence together to save his life and Miller was, we suspect, drunk as hell, to the point where someone posed a question to him and he just kinda stared off in a daze until he mumbled something incoherent. While the other panelists had water, Miller was drinking out of a Coke cup, which prompted my friend to wonder out loud if there was whiskey in there. The other three panelists kind of ignored him after a while and people in the audience stopped directing questions to him.

Comment #31: UltraMagnus  on  03/10  at  07:59 PM

I’m guessing that the “Alan Moore is a conservative” meme got started at around the time that he criticized the script for the V For Vendetta movie for simplifying his ideas about anarchy and revolution into a more palatable message of American-style liberalism.  Moore himself has never been a conservative—he wrote about environmental issues before it was fashionable, helped coordinate the AARGH (Artists Against Rampant Government Homophobia) comics anthology, and has been a vocal critic of both George W. Bush and Tony Blair over the war in Iraq (suggesting that America in particular was creeping towards fascism).  He’s kind of an eccentric, I suppose (although I think even that’s been exaggerated) and not everything he has written has been great (I think The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is vastly overrated, merely clever even as it aspires to profundity), but he’s been a pretty consistent voice for progressive political causes throughout his career.

Now, the Watchmen movie still sucked, but that has more to do with Zack Snyder (a director Moore publicly criticized when discussing the homophobia in 300).  Snyder, it seems, understands Watchmen<i> in the same way I did… the first time I read it… when I was in the 7th grade.  I’ll grant that it’s a bold movie, in the sense that I thought it was bold to suck all of the subtlety, nuance, and humanity out of the graphic novel in order to make the most violent, sexually exploitative, and—above all— <i>earnest superhero movie ever made.  I’m not saying that Snyder agrees with all of Rorschach’s political beliefs, but there’s no doubt Snyder thinks Rorschach totally kicks ass.

Comment #32: Bradley  on  03/10  at  08:00 PM

Zifnab, Watchmen most certainly did not lead Frank Miller to create the “dark and gritty” era of American comics.  Miller was well on his way to doing that by himself long before Watchmen was ever conceived.  And yeah, it’s already been said but calling Moore “deeply conservative” is simply ignorant.  Give his Promethea a read and tell me it was hatched from a conservative mind.  I dare you.

It’s interesting to me that you bring up the child-killer scene with Rorshach as evidence of Moore’s wingnut ways.  No.  Read the damn book.  That scene was far, far different.  In the movie, Rorshach rages out and hacks up the killer’s skull.  In the book, well, lets just say Rorshach’s punishment was far more deliberate.  In either case, yes, Rorshach is a wingnut who has severe problems with sexual women.  This is not portrayed as a good thing.

Comment #33: Jrod  on  03/10  at  08:00 PM

As for whether satire needs to be funny, well, I don’t recall A Modest Proposal being a laugh riot.

Agreed—there are funny satires and unfunny satires, including the whole satiric mode that has the overtones of “Everything sucks in this fucking place, and I’m leaving, and you would, too, if you were smart enough, but you’re probably not” (a/k/a “Juvenalian satire”).

Comment #34: FlipYrWhig  on  03/10  at  08:04 PM

Thanks for the story, Ultra… definitely confirms what I’ve been hearing about Miller.

I love his work… but, ug. Sin City was nothing but sexually frustrated aspirations of martyrdom. Which, is fun, very rock n’ roll, but more jazz hands than substance.

Comment #35: humanadverb  on  03/10  at  08:05 PM

I think I know how Zif got confused:  the ads keep selling it as “By the visionary director of 300!” which was a Frank Miller book.  And Miller is absolutely a nutty dyed-in-the-wool conservative.

It actually took me a while to figure out that, no, Frank Miller was not the director of Watchmen, it was this other guy, Zack Snyder, who was the actual director of 300.  Miller got so much PR when 300 was released that I thought he had directed it himself, but turns out not so much. 

Not that Miller is a glory hog or anything, heaven forfend ...

Comment #36: Mnemosyne  on  03/10  at  08:06 PM

Ha, if you’re interested in novels in comics form, it’s been done quite a bit.  Look into Will Eisner’s post-Spirit stuff for the ur-examples.  Another good one, which I never skip a chance to plug, is Stuck Rubber Baby by Howard Cruse.  It’s a tale of a boy coming to grips with his homosexuality during the civil rights struggle of the early 60s.  Available at non-shit libraries everywhere.

Comment #37: Jrod  on  03/10  at  08:07 PM

The review you linked is like a review of “A Modest Proposal” that criticizes Swift for not including recipes.

Comment #38: JupiterPluvius  on  03/10  at  08:07 PM

Zif, I’ve never seen or heard anything about Moore being “conservative”, but the text itself indicates that being a right winger, Nixon supporter, or otherwise a fascist is bad.  It’s a bleak book, but it is not “conservative” or propagandistic for a conservative cause.

Second of all, I disagree with people who think the book is dated. Only if you approach it on the most shallow level.  Frankly, I thought it was very predictive of our times—-Rorshach and Comedian could be a satire of Bush and Cheney with very little tweakinggg.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/10  at  08:10 PM

@ JupiterPluvius:  “A child will make two dishes at an entertainment for friends; and when the family dines alone, the fore or hind quarter will make a reasonable dish, and seasoned with a little pepper or salt will be very good boiled on the fourth day, especially in winter.”  That’s _almost_ a recipe…

Comment #40: FlipYrWhig  on  03/10  at  08:10 PM

Miller is a rough spot for those of us who are both liberal-feminist and love the craft of comics.  Even if the story is juvenile and silly, I’d still tell any aspiring comics artist to study the early Sin City books, because Miller is a genius when is comes to sequential art storytelling.  He used every technique in the book and invented a few.

Same for that asshole Dave Sim’s Cerebus.  He’s a misogynist creep with his head up his ass, but he’s also an innovator in the art of comic storytelling.

If you’re not interested in writing or drawing comics, then I don’t recommend either.  Well, maybe some of the early Cerebus, before Sim went totally bugfuck…

Comment #41: Jrod  on  03/10  at  08:13 PM

Thanks for the recs, Jrod… I’ll definitely check out Stuck Rubber Baby.

I am a huge fan of comic books, and insist that they have incredible potential as art AND literature. I don’t use the “graphic novel” tag, though, because novels are something else that already exists. Comics are their own thing, which can be awesome or lame, but I’m staking out territory around comic books and insisting that COMICS HAVE VALUE without needing to reach for novels for credibility. That’s why I use the “graphic novel” tag on Watchmen, because I think it is more like a novel and doesn’t do a very good job of being a good comic book.

Babylon 5 was consciously conceived as an effort to create a “video novel.” I think this was a bad decision that kinda fucked up the overall show. If you want to write a novel, write a novel. If you want to create a television show with a preconceived five-season arc, do it, but don’t proceed pretending that you’re making a novel people can watch on their televisions.

By and large, I think Moore would be more effective if he were writing novels. But maybe I’m just saying that because comic book art in the 1980s was kinda shit compared to today’s. (A commentary on print quality more than artists, ‘natch.)

Comment #42: humanadverb  on  03/10  at  08:16 PM

Okay, I see other people were on it.  Hearing that the writer of “The Watchmen” is “conservative” made about as much sense as hearing that the writer of “The Color Purple” was anti-feminist, but sometimes you never know.  Ray Bradbury claims “Fahrenheit 451” is not about censorship.  I’m glad to know Moore is a political radical with a leftist bent; that means he’s in control of his material and his intention lines up with the most obvious readings.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/10  at  08:24 PM

Flip, no, not really.  From the first page, “The Watchmen” is sending loud signals that it’s different.  Even the inks used are different.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/10  at  08:25 PM

“I did like the movie; I just don’t see the need to see it again.  And I need to put it out of my head so I can enjoy Hugh Jackman in “Wolverine” “

Rorschach vs Wolverine: best one yet of a long running series of Marvel vs DC char videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n3VSw1XBOo

Comment #45: KMac  on  03/10  at  08:29 PM

@ Amanda:  Hmm, OK.  So mainstream hero-comic readers would know better than to fall for Watchmen as a mainstream hero comic, even the first time, even just seeing it on the table at the store without any preconceptions? 

(Actually, _would_ it have been just lying out on the table at the store?  I’m imagining a chain bookstore, and I know that’s not right, but I haven’t been inside a comic store for more than 20 years.  How would potential readers have found out about it in the first place?  Sorry if this is a sidetrack.)

Comment #46: FlipYrWhig  on  03/10  at  08:32 PM

“there were CRYING CHILDREN in the theater for my screening. More than one.

It’s an R-rated movie. Blame the dumbass parents who despite hundreds of millions and numerous years never seem to realize that R-rated movies, M-rated video games aren’t meant to be seen by children and should be watched only by adults and for that matter teenagers should only see them after the parents watch them.

This is an R-rated movie that male frontal nudity, an actual act of sex stuff that without the violence would have made it nc-17. Honestly that are fracking contact discreptors that the movie trailers and ads had that would have warned any intelligent adult that the movie was not meant to be seen by children.

Comment #47: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  08:38 PM

@ha: I’m not for keeping kids from seeing R-rated stuff out of hand, but seriously… you don’t take kids young enough to cry to an R-rated movie where you have no idea what is going to happen.

I knew this would happen. Some parents are just idiots - such as the suburban mom I once saw taking her 9 year-old son into “Bad Santa.”

Comment #48: CHV  on  03/10  at  08:40 PM

”  In either case, yes, Rorshach is a wingnut who has severe problems with sexual women.”

Well his mother wasn’t exactly a woman any one would want for their mother. His disapproval of women is so entrenched I don’t think Rorshach would ever have sex with a woman, he even discribed working with lingerie as distrurbing. About the only thing to admire is that he sees the world in black and white and doesn’t let murderers live.

The movie end makes more sense then the graphic novel and well Bubastis Veidt is a huge enterprise and Ozy has lots of weird hobbies an Antartic base that resembles Karnak why not have some weird tiger creature that was created by his labs

” How would potential readers have found out about it in the first place?  Sorry if this is a sidetrack”

Graphic novels and manga are carried by pretty much every chain bookstore even Walmarts now carry Manga. Both are more popular then comic books have ever been.

A lot of people who like watchmen fall into two camps people who enjoy a good movie, people who liked the graphic novel and don’t have their head stuck up their butt.

You could make Watchmen five hours and be scene by scene and the so called Watchmen fans would still complain.

You have people complaining about the music in the movie and it was in the freaking graphic novel.

Comment #49: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  08:47 PM

“As for conservative vs. liberal…this is a world where the conservatives win, and it’s a hell on Earth.”

It’s not that way in the book.  There it is a liberal utopian who desperately wants people to stop killing each other who wins the day, and it’s actually a bit of a tough call as to whether he did the right thing (he didn’t, but at least I had to think about it).

Comment #50: Hari Narayan Singh Khalsa  on  03/10  at  08:48 PM

Heh, I had frat boys sitting in the row behind me (I think I commented this over at LGM).  Their, ah, “enlightened” commentary really drove home the failure of the marketing, but the success in the movie.  They came expecting to see “lots of action”, not “talking and cocks”.  The movie was very true to the spirit of the comic and (at the risk of getting yelled at) I thought the changed ending was more believable than the one in the book.

Comment #51: themann1086  on  03/10  at  08:52 PM

Is Ozymandias a sociopath? One thing that the movie cut out of the comic book is Rorschach’s complete idolization of Truman, and of the fact that he dropped the bomb on Japan to save American soldier’s lives. One of the reasons I always thought he was crying at the end, was because he realize Ozymandias pulled a Truman, and killed millions so billions might live.

If you have a problem with Ozymandias, you have a problem with the atomic bombing of Japan.

Comment #52: Seebach  on  03/10  at  08:57 PM

” I thought the changed ending was more believable than the one in the book.

Original ending wouldn’t translate well to film and besides if you really think about it why would just one appearing and wiping out Manhatten get every country to set aside their differances in 45 minutes? Wiping out several cities would be far more likely to get the world peace reaction in 45 minutes since every country would be scared it would be their cities next plus the destruction did resemble a nuclear attack making the message to avoid nuclear war more apparent.

““lots of action”, “

There was. A lot of broken necks, broken body parts etc.

“not “talking and cocks”.  “

I suppose they would have been happier with talking and boobs. I do have to admit that hopefully Watchmen will pave the way for full frontal female nudity in films that don’t result in an immediate nc-17 slapped on the film in the first print shown to the MPAA.

As for marketing this society is run by buyer beware so one should always do a little research.

Comment #53: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  08:59 PM

I thought that the movie didn’t make any of this clear.  I thought that the casual misogyny and Reaganishness was at best, audience-trolling.

Comment #54: Mandos  on  03/10  at  09:03 PM

Flip, I thought you meant in the process of reading the story.  The book is front-loaded with a lot of signposts to indicate that it is what it is. The cover?  Only a little.  It tries to be intriguing.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/10  at  09:04 PM

And the marketing didn’t make it clear either.  I could so see someone thinking that this was going to be like Superman.  I sort of thought so too.  No, I haven’t read the book first.  I might be a nerd but I’m not much of a comic…er graphic novel nerd.

Comment #56: Mandos  on  03/10  at  09:05 PM

“One of the reasons I always thought he was crying at the end, was because he realize Ozymandias pulled a Truman, and killed millions so billions might live.

Rorschach knew he was going to get obilterated and that Ozy would likely never be punished and the truth would be never known to the world. Truman you could say was truthfull while Ozy wasn’t.

Ozy I don’t think is a sociopath he does feel the effects of the deaths but he rationalized it and would be haunted by it. The most sane and human superhero turns out to be responisble for killing millions of innocent human beings as well. Notice he seemed to be sad about Bubastis’s death as well as the research scientists especially since their work would never be known.

“One thing that the movie cut out of the comic book is Rorschach’s complete idolization of Truman”

Nope it is mentioned once. The Ultimate Director’s cut will have more of the stuff I had to tell a friend the fate of Captain Metropolis and Hooded Justice. Didn’t have time after the movie ended to mention they were likely gay lovers and why The Comedian made his remarks to HJ when he was being beaten up after trying to rape Sally Jupiter.

What could be translated to film in the time alloted they did a great job on. Honestly like a lot of great movies you have to dig deeper with repeat viewings to get all the juicy stuff.

Comment #57: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  09:05 PM

“No, I haven’t read the book first.  I might be a nerd but I’m not much of a comic…er graphic novel nerd.

Watchmen is one of the top rated graphic novels and is constantly talked about. If you have ever read a list of great novels of the 20th century Watchmen is actually on the list. Even a breif snippet of movie info should clue one in it isn’t the typical superhero movie hence why it was never made or done on tv.

Comment #58: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  09:08 PM

BTW, I come from the position that the atomic bombing of Japan was wrong. But it’s such an article of faith that it saved American lives, without absolutely any hard proof that an actual land invasion of Japan was even necessary. But most Americans don’t think of each other as sociopaths.

Comment #59: Seebach  on  03/10  at  09:12 PM

Amanda:

Not “The Watchmen”.  Just “Watchmen”.

Comment #60: Blue Fielder  on  03/10  at  09:12 PM

I think satire works actually as a descriptor. I mean technically it’s a postmodern deconstruction in it’s main focus is the genre itself and all the assumptions in world-building you enter into it, but it’s also a traditional old-school satire in the school of “it’s not funny, because it’s too true and too painful”. In other words the same sort of dystopian satire that “Handmaid’s Tale” is.

Thinking back on it, I think Antigone went into it probably with the same mindset people did when Watchmen was brand new and nobody had any warning (wait that character is gay, where’s the hero, oh god that’s terrible). Most of us newer comic nerds from the Vertigo Era had a lot of warning about Watchmen before we read it so we were in the right headspace to appreciate what it did. In many ways, the fact that it was disturbing and off-putting to newcomers and hard-punching to oldcomers shows that David Hayter’s work on the translation was well-done.

Hari-

Oh, one quick point, the conservative dystopia is during the novel. Comedian and Dr. Manhattan helped aid a period of time where Nixon was vindicated. Considering what was going on at the time in America, I’m not entirely sure Alan Moore saw his dystopian reality as inherently “worse” than real life considering Reagan took a lot of Nixon’s plans and just made them public with extra crazy on them.

Comment #61: Cerberus  on  03/10  at  09:12 PM

“But it’s such an article of faith that it saved American lives, “

Miltiary studies showed that it would have cost a potential one million American lives and several million Japanese. Post war they got a look at the defenses the Japanese were going to use to fight off a land invasion. They could have indeed done a huge amount of casulties on the invasion force with the numerous suicide attacks they were going to carry out.

One bomb may have been necessary at least. They should have a week or two before another bombing.

Comment #62: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  09:16 PM

“Graphic novels and manga are carried by pretty much every chain bookstore even Walmarts now carry Manga. Both are more popular then comic books have ever been.”

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

This is wrong on so may levels. Today’s top selling titles would have been canceled for low sales in the 70’s.

Comment #63: MattMinus  on  03/10  at  09:20 PM

And Ozy was a psychopath. Part of his character was even if it turned out he was right, he still did so mainly out of his intense ego and pride in his intelligence. He refused to consult with anyone or question any of his actions and committed himself completely with no ability to be turned back. In some ways, he was a competent Bush and the point of both the movie and the book is whether it really was worth all that death aka as was pointed out whether it really should have been taken as granted that nuking Japan was “necessary”.

With historical context (Japan would have surrendered; Cold War ended because Gorbachev was man enough to realize it was stupid) that choice only becomes more stark.

Comment #64: Cerberus  on  03/10  at  09:21 PM

“This is wrong on so may levels. Today’s top selling titles would have been canceled for low sales in the 70’s. “

Manga is a 400 million dollar industry in the US. You should watch some of the comic book industry people talk today they admit that Manga is more popular then comic books and more profitable hence why Marvel is doing Manga.

Also Manga and graphic novels are also more accepted then comic books. Without graphic novel sales in Barnes and Nobels and Books a Million most of the comic book publishers would be out of business.

Comment #65: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  09:24 PM

tootired-

Of course that also ignores that we had them isolated from means to actually strike us again and we’re talking about invading for invading sakes and also the fact that all Japan wanted to begin with was a more favorable resource policy so they could get back to oppressing the Chinese. It may have turned out better for Japan to have slapped the militarism out of them a little, but it rather hasn’t helped our cavalier idea of nuclear weapons as fun and necessary tools of mass slaughter.

Even Truman was hesitant about them once he realized what he had done and how much power really was in a nuclear bomb and pretty much dropped the second one (and continued the war in the first place) as a sort of “we’ve got you surrounded” ploy against Stalin.

Comment #66: Cerberus  on  03/10  at  09:26 PM

I’ve got an old fanzine interview with Alan Moore that he did while the original issues of Watchmen were still coming out, and he talks about how he deliberately designed characters like Rorschach to have ideas and philosophies that Moore himself, as a liberal humanist, found repugnant.  It’s always disturbed me how many comic-book fans see Rorschach as a heroic, aspirational character, although I do think Moore succeeds in making him sympathetic in his own way.

Moore has always been kind of a mixed bag on feminist issues; he’s created some great female characters, but not necessarily in Watchmen.  I actually think the movie handled the two Silk Spectres a bit better than the comic, just by putting more emphasis on their relationship and Silk Spectre II’s character arc.

Accepting that Watchmen is to a degree unfilmable, I enjoyed the movie and respect it for trying to meet the graphic novel on its own level; it’s big and ambitious and messy.  It’s strange how, just as Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns formed a sort of twin coda to the classic superhero comic in the ‘80s, now we have the Watchmen and Dark Knight movies as dueling apotheoses to the superhero movie.  In the ‘80s, Rorschach’s journal unintentionally parodied Batman’s ultra-gritty right-wing dialogue in Dark Knight; now the movie Rorschach parodies the movie Batman’s voice.  Nothing new under the sun…

Comment #67: Shaenon  on  03/10  at  09:27 PM

@ Amanda:  I was asking about the total experience of being a comics reader finding then reading Watchmen without preconceptions, and at what point the feeling would kick in that you were reading a “meta” work or a kind of satire.  I think that would include the physical packaging as well as the cues-while-reading you helpfully described.  Cerberus provides great detail about that initial experience.

Comment #68: FlipYrWhig  on  03/10  at  09:27 PM

I thought the marketing reflected a big problem with the movie.  The marketing portrays it as a movie about superheroes, and the cuts in the story make it feel more like a traditional superhero movie. The book, however, the superheroes seem almost incidental.  To me, the book felt more like a story of the human civilization, that the heroes just happened to be in, rather than a story exclusively about them.  The stuff they cut comes at the expense of the heavy, doomed feeling that 1985 carries in the book.  Ozymandias criticizes the heroes as being ineffectual at the end, and in the book that criticism carries real weight from the ample evidence provided by all the stuff they mostly cut in the movie (the newsstand etc.).  In the movie, that criticism and the reveal at the end just don’t carry the weight they did in the book.  The end of the book just blew me away, while the movie? Meh.

Comment #69: Brylock  on  03/10  at  09:32 PM

I saw it with 4 friends who hadn’t read the comics (I was the only one that had) and they all thought that Ozy was wrong and felt no remorse for his actions.  I kinda wish that the ending of the movie included a scene that is in the comic where Ozy is looking for Dr. Manhattan to approve/confirm his actions.  I also think that the bloodless way that the people in the cities die, makes the impact of Ozy’s actions easier to dismiss.  In the comics, those scenes after the attack basically made me sick to my stomach and it made the actions and decisions of everyone at Ozy’s house more interesting to read.  (I need a better word than “interesting”.)

As for my 4 friends, we had dinner after the movie and other than some clarifications of who some characters were (Hooded Justice and the other heroes in flashbacks), they enjoyed it in general

Comment #70: Steve (in Peoria)  on  03/10  at  09:34 PM

“Also Manga and graphic novels are also more accepted then comic books. “

Ummmmm, manga and graphic novels ARE comic books.


“Manga is a 400 million dollar industry in the US. You should watch some of the comic book industry people talk today they admit that Manga is more popular then comic books and more profitable hence why Marvel is doing Manga.”


According to ICv2, manga sales for 2008 were $175 million, while periodical comics did $320 million.
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/14239.html

Trust me, you don’t want a comic-fu battle with me wink

Comment #71: MattMinus  on  03/10  at  09:36 PM

Huh, I’ve got some major privileges or I need to read the graphic novel again, because Silk Spectre II’s character always come across to me as a feminist character without any form of support or temperance or guidance. Basically the raw emotion of being in a male-dominated world like say comic books with absolutely no one really letting her know that what she feels is normal and that there is a patriarchy and just how it’s affecting her. I also saw her reaction with her mother as a point where her principles got in the way of her principles as she took the victim blaming route with her mother who struggled with her own rape and sexuality in a world where neither were ever hers (or even her self but that’s a whole nother deconstruction he does).

I thought like most of his characters, he’s not showing the ideal, but how you would live if you were human and prone to fuck-ups. Hence Silk Spectre and Nite Owl trying to live up to ideals they’d never meet, the butch lesbian hitting her partner and wrapped in guilt about it and the horrific closeted lives and deaths of Hanged Justice and Silhouette.

Basically the whole, showing sexism to condemn it line that shows like Mad Men try to walk. Though his later works do definitely allow him to greater showcase his good intentions at least on behalf to feminism. I felt the movie did an ok job of conveying the same stuff, but Silk Spectre’s character was terribly subtle to begin with.

Comment #72: Cerberus  on  03/10  at  09:37 PM

I haven’t seen the movie yet, but it sounds like it’ll translate for its intended audience: adults who read and appreciated the comic book series (or graphic novel) and want to see it brought to life in “live action.”

And while I agree that it is Swiftian satire, there is something funny about the movie: audiences who are unfamiliar with the comics, go in expecting to see something like The Dark Knight, and end up as confused as the blogger you debated. That, and the fact that, people will flock to any big-budget movie featuring costumed adventurers in the period between New Year’s and Memorial Day.

The fact that people are bringing their kids is less funny, but most of the reviews I’ve read emphasise “not for children” even if the marketing doesn’t. But some idiot parents bring their kids to Friday the 13th and Saw, too, so what can you do?

A big problem with the movie, if I understand the descriptions I’ve read correctly, is that iit doesn’t give you any positive figures, not even the Alan Moore Regular People (the Bernies, the Longs, the lesbians) that figure so prominently in the book’s conclusion.

The “Alan Moore Regular People” in the Watchmen comics aren’t particularly positive—in their own unique ways, all the people you mention are rather grating and annoying. That’s not to say they’re bad people, just flawed and unsympathetic. Would you go out of your way to hang out with a blowhard newsvendor, a cranky self-absorbed teenager, a glad-handing self-promoter of a shrink, his shrewish wife, a self-hating lesbian, or a member of a violent street gang?

One thing to note about Alan Moore is that he’s a bit of a reclusive misanthrope. Which isn’t such a bad thing (especially given that he’s channeled the bulk of his passion into the creative expression of ideas), but it does inform his view of “Regular People” as well as the original Minutemen and their successors.

The closest thing to a positive character in the graphic novel is Hollis Mason, and perhaps Dan Dreiburg. Both are painted as slightly pathetic and nerdy, but otherwise sympathetic. I seem to remember Moore saying that Nite Owl II was intended to be the “audience identification” character, which was probably a good choice.

Comment #73: Gracchus.  on  03/10  at  09:37 PM

Also, was I the only one who felt that considering how impossible this work was to translate into another form (It’s postmodern decontruction of the very thing it embodies in about three mediums and about 20 interlocking thematic stories at least) that David Hayter did a bang-up impressive job that probably will only get better in any “Extended Cuts”?

Comment #74: Cerberus  on  03/10  at  09:40 PM

<quote>The marketing portrays it as a movie about superheroes, and the cuts in the story make it feel more like a traditional superhero movie. The book, however, the superheroes seem almost incidental.</quote>

Thank-you, Brylock, for putting that into words for me.  I was trying to figure out what it was about the film that didn’t sit right for me, and that’s exactly it.  It lacked the context that anchored the story in humanity.  In the g.n. even the crazy political stuff was treated as matter of fact, day to day reality, but there were close-ups of how those realities affected people’s day to day lives.  There were boring, mundane bits which balanced the more extreme elements.  I understand why they may have felt the need to truncate those parts for the film, but it did leave it feeling a bit hollow for me.

Comment #75: Half Ass Saint  on  03/10  at  09:41 PM

So far just one mention of Halo Jones. “She wasn’t that brave or that clever or that strong. She was just somebody who felt cramped by the confines of her file. She was just somebody who had to get out.” Her most famous quotation: “Anybody could have done it”. Halo is a pretty remarkable comic book character, especially considering she appeared in 1984 in 2000AD. I highly recommend the complete ballad of Halo Jones to everyone.

Comment #76: alextwo  on  03/10  at  09:42 PM

“You could make Watchmen five hours and be scene by scene and the so called Watchmen fans would still complain.”

I hate how often I have to say this:  What works in a comic book will not always work in a movie!!!

One of the reasons I fucking hated this damn movie is that they took too much dialogue straight from the book and it just sounded fucking stupid (of course, it wasn’t helped that the actors made Ben Afleck in Daredevil look good.)  It’s like if you read a literal translation of a book originally written in Japanese—it might have won the Nobel Prize, but it’s still gonna fucking suck.

Sin City, books I liked despite Miller and his wingnuttery, suffered from an even worse case of direct translation.  That movie was basically a panel for panel remake of the early books and it was fucking terrible.

Comment #77: Svlad Jelly  on  03/10  at  09:43 PM

Though I may change my mind on viewing the extended cut & supplemental DVD’s…

Comment #78: Half Ass Saint  on  03/10  at  09:44 PM

Also on this “Alan Moore is conservative” thing—I don’t know who made that up.  Moore was a member of Artists Against Rampant Government Homophobia (along with other British comics greats like Neil Gaiman) and was in a poly relationship at the time.  His contribution was a gay love poem called “The Mirror of Love” which was refashioned into its own book in 2003. 

Also, I think this quote is very telling, how many straight males can look at their own privilege like this:

‘Obviously I’m taking big risks, like being a white heterosexual writer writing about gay people, black people and women. It would be really arrogant to claim that by writing about women I know what it’s like to be one, but you have to at least think about them more – you have to try and think your way inside them and that can only be a good thing – it gives you an appreciation of the other person’s opinion, even if you’ve only imagined it very clumsily.’

http://www.johncoulthart.com/feuilleton/2006/02/20/alan-moore-interview-1988/

Comment #79: Sarah the Librarian  on  03/10  at  09:44 PM

What genre is Watchmen? I’ve only read the original graphic novel once, a while ago, but taking the movie by itself for what it’s worth, I wouldn’t say it’s satire, per se. What I’d say is that it’s alt-History, a la Harry Turtledove as a primary example.

And as such it does a very good job. The characters simply are what they are, and are natural results of their given environment, and it actually makes reasonable logical sense. The Comedian and Rorschach are driven into madness basically by opposing factors, The Comedian of the weakness of the victim and Rorschach by the depravity of the perpetrator.

But past that, the entire story revolves around alt-history. Without the different history of the Cold War, the entire story simply ceases to be. That’s the main point, I find how the presence of Dr. Manhattan and the rest of the Minutemen altered history so drastically to be THE point of the movie, and the ending played through to its logical conclusion.

The original graphic novel, was more concerned with being an anti-comic book that the ending fell apart on this one. The new ending, as a work of alt-history is leaps and bounds better.

Comment #80: Karmakin  on  03/10  at  09:46 PM

If Rorschach were real, and alive today, he’d be a “Freeper” for sure.

Comment #81: Tuff Ghost  on  03/10  at  09:56 PM

I just want it noted for the record that I can’t participate in this thread because of two pending court deadlines and a conference tomorrow….

and it pisses me right off.

Comment #82: seeker6079  on  03/10  at  09:57 PM

No, I think my question is how do you characterize a story like “The Watchmen”?

In TV Tropes lingo it’s a Deconstruction.

Comment #83: Ruby  on  03/10  at  10:00 PM

But past that, the entire story revolves around alt-history. Without the different history of the Cold War, the entire story simply ceases to be. That’s the main point, I find how the presence of Dr. Manhattan and the rest of the Minutemen altered history so drastically to be THE point of the movie, and the ending played through to its logical conclusion.

I’m a big alt-history fan, but I’d disagree about the theme, at least regarding the book. The story is about power—the kind of people who are drawn to it, how they get it, how they abuse it, and how other people deal with the consequences. The alternative history setting is a fantastic way to explore those meditations, but ultimately it’s just a setting. I sort of wish they’d had the courage to replace Nixon with Reagan in the movie (as Moore originally planned for the comic series), but Nixon still works.

Also, from what I’ve heard the new ending is very appropriate and topical. I’ll miss the squid, though.

Comment #84: Gracchus.  on  03/10  at  10:01 PM

I had never heard of this story before.  I am a graphic novel fan; but paging through a few pages at the store made go “over-the-top gratuitously violent comic” and I put it away.  Like I mentioned in the comics, I went in with the mindset of “Iron-age superhero movie”.  Since so many people said “It’s not straight-up” I went and watched it again.  I still got “straight-up iron age superhero” movie.  They called themselves superheroes, and the fight scenes were still all lovingly displayed.  The music, the camera angles; it was a “look how awesome these kick-ass people are”.  We’re supposed to cry with Rorschach when he describes his “death of Walter” scene.  I just didn’t see anything that said “this is bad”.

Comment #85: Antigone  on  03/10  at  10:03 PM

http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6635333.html states

Sales of graphic novels in general bookstores continued to grow faster than in comics shops. Bookstores generated $265 million in sales in 2008 compared to about $165 million in sales through the comics shop market (also known as the direct market).  Libraries represent about $25 million in sales.


And for the first time since ICv2 began tracking the size of this market in 2001, manga sales, the largest segment of the graphic novel market,  declined, falling 17%, to $175 million.

Manga refers to Japanese style and graphic novel usually refers to Western publishers okay. So yeah manga is much larger then comic books and more popular.

Even Marvel and other comic book authors admit that manga has more readers and sales then their series ever did in their hey day.

Comment #86: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  10:07 PM

*****SPOILER?****

One thing I really didn’t understand was the need to have Dr. Manhattan exploding people with the big spatters of blood.  It seems really out of character for him, being detached and scientific.  In the g.n. he disintegrates Rorschach cleanly and that seems far more in keeping with his style.

Comment #87: Half Ass Saint  on  03/10  at  10:08 PM

There was a large blood pile in the book

Comment #88: Daniel-138  on  03/10  at  10:15 PM

“One of the reasons I fucking hated this damn movie is that they took too much dialogue straight from the book and it just sounded fucking stupid “

Nothing new here in all honesty if you took 99% of what a person said throughout their life and put it in a movie it would sound fucking stupid. Even Ghandi and JFK would sound stupid.

“That movie was basically a panel for panel remake of the early books and it was fucking terrible.”

Have to admit artistically it was well made and a technical accomplishment.

“The “Alan Moore Regular People” in the Watchmen comics aren’t particularly positive—in their own unique ways, all the people you mention are rather grating and annoying. “

There would have been a fuck ton of complaints if the movie had them being in it. They weren’t necessary towards the plot and would have sucked up a lot of life from the movie audience.

“and they all thought that Ozy was wrong and felt no remorse for his actions.  “

He is a subtle character and his dialog if you listen to it does show he feels remorse but he has rationalized it.

As for Rorschach I can understand why in the film they changed how he dispatched the child killer. Doing it in that manner made him more empathic since a lot of people would have likely snapped and done the same thing or worse to the child killer if they encountered such depravity while trying to get their child home safe.  Graphic Novel method being turned to film would sent the wrong message and made it look like Rorschach was always that crazy.

Comment #89: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  10:19 PM

I haven’t read the books, so I don’t know how faithful that representation is, but I left thinking Nite Owl was the only decent person of the bunch, and even he was willing to let evil win in order to attain World Peace.

Nite Owl was literally impotent unless he was wearing his mask, and when the push came to shove, he was unwilling to do anything to resolve the Ozy/Manhatten/Rorschach dilemma.  He stood by and let it happen, and then screamed about afterwards.  If you go back to his scenes with the Comedian, you see the same thing - the Comedian’s criticisms were pretty accurate.

He’s the model of the Effete Liberal, as done running around in a cape getting his jollies beating up on the bad guys.

They were *all* monsters - Manhatten due to his detachment, and the rest because that’s the sort of person who would engage in “superheroism”.

Comment #90: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/10  at  10:20 PM

“There was a large blood pile in the book

Having the blood pile resemble an inkblot in the movie was an artistic touch. He became an ink blot in death.

Comment #91: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  10:23 PM

If you want a parallel to Nite Owl, consider that the “superheroes” of Watchmen would be the sort of person STILL claiming that going into Iraq was liberation, and Nite Owl the hand-wringing leftist who is still apologising for it while trying to deal with the fallout.

Comment #92: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/10  at  10:26 PM

Piator, that may be, but he’s still the audience identified character.  That’s one reason the book is so unsettling—-the implication is that few to none of us could effectively resist Ozy’s actions, nor would we necessarily wish to.  The dilemma Ozy puts to them is, unlike Batman’s spying dilemma, a real dilemma, and their choice has consequences.  But I’d be hard-pressed to say any of us could really do better.

Comment #93: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/10  at  10:27 PM

Secondly, Alan Moore is deeply conservative.

He what with the who now?

Comment #94: Auguste  on  03/10  at  10:29 PM

Oh, did you mean like Christopher Hitchens or Andrew Sullivan are “leftists”?

Comment #95: Auguste  on  03/10  at  10:30 PM

Hmmm.  I had taken the mark left for a scorch mark, but in retrospect I suppose that makes no sense as they were standing on snow.  I retract my complaint.

Comment #96: Half Ass Saint  on  03/10  at  10:38 PM

One thing I really didn’t understand was the need to have Dr. Manhattan exploding people with the big spatters of blood.  It seems really out of character for him, being detached and scientific.  In the g.n. he disintegrates Rorschach cleanly and that seems far more in keeping with his style.

From what I understand about, and have heard about, Zack Snyder has a thing for blood and guts and sex scenes (the scene in Watchmen is very similar to the sex scene in 300).

I also preferred this ending to the novels, especially considering that they cut out that entire plot, however…
**************SPOILER*********************
Dr. Manhattan was clearly an American weapon of war, if you will. If he attacked another country, espeically the Soviet Union, would they really be so eager to join the U.S.? I know Ozymandius included New York in there, but still. It’s pointed out again and again in the film that Manhattan works for the U.S. and its presidents and I would assume that every other country would freak out, even while the U.S. is crying that they got hit too, and blame the U.S. for the tragedy.
**************END SPOILER****************


I do have to admit that hopefully Watchmen will pave the way for full frontal female nudity in films that don’t result in an immediate nc-17 slapped on the film in the first print shown to the MPAA.

Wait, what? Pave the way? I know of several films—not big studio blockbusters mind you, but regular R rated films—that have female full frontal from the 70s on. Is it that you want full frontal in larger studio films?

I was utterly surprised when Snyder left Dr. Manhattan’s nudity in, because Robert Rodriguez saw fit to take out the male full frontal shots in Sin City, and even more surprised not to hear a peep from the MPAA about it. It’s notoriously harder to get full frontal male nudity in the movie, and usually when dealing with it they have sort of a three second rule (see also This Film Is Not Yet Rated and IFC’s Indie Sex series). Then again, this has WB backing it and isn’t an indie movie.

Comment #97: UltraMagnus  on  03/10  at  10:40 PM

Watchmen’s genre is the “What if?” one, which is certainly a part of satire.  Harry Turtledove has made one hell of a career of it, though Swift was the most famous early example.  When people ask about whether satire must be funny, I’m reminded of a John Cleese interview where he mentioned what made his type of humor work.  He said it was that even when he was at his most absurd, he were serious.  He was respoding to criticism of a lack of seriousness and pointed out that one can be serious without being solemn.  In a similar way, satire isn’t always “funny”.  Sometimes it can be very funny mockery, but sometimes it’s best to point out absurdity by the use of calm satire.  I remember a time long ago when a woman didn’t want to walk alone at night through a college campus because she “didn’t want no beaner baby”.  Lovely sentiment, that.  I helpfully pointed out that any such child would only be “half-beaner” which didn’t exactly quash all her fears, but I wasn’t really caring at that point whether she was raped by anyone of any particular genetic background.  Sometimes it’s most effective to attack things from an unexpected direction.

Satire is an attempt to point out absurdity by the use of possibility.  The reason Watchmen isn’t always understood as satire is that the targets of its satire are so many.  It satirizes comic books, caped crusaders, heroism, celebrity, America, vigilantes, villains, sex, sexuality, politics, law, crank newspapers, women, aging, scientists, justice, the a-bomb, and truth.  With that herd of sacred cows, everyone’s ox can get gored.  There’s going to be a lot of people wondering for a long time just what Watchmen means, and part of what makes it so great is that almost all of them will get it wrong and many others will be there to tell them why.

Comment #98: 3letterjon  on  03/10  at  10:47 PM

About the only thing to admire is that he sees the world in black and white and doesn’t let murderers live.

...pardon?

Comment #99: Rebecca  on  03/10  at  10:51 PM

” know of several films”

Direct to video and not major theaterical films. That was what I was refering to.

Also Dr. Manhatten had attacked numerous cities that were supposed to be allied with the US. Hong Kong which if I recall correctly was UK terrority in the Watchmen universe, Paris, and several other cities around the world. Plus there was the news of him leaving Earth and being on Mars plus all those comments he had made in the tv interview. Very easy to suppose he finally went rogue and attacked the US and the world.

If you look through thenewfrontiersmen.net viral marketing website you will see the US was trying to prepare contigency plans if Dr. Manhatten went rogue. They were even discussing the need they may have to wipe out The Comedian due to all the stuff he did for Nixon and other stuff they wouldn’t want the US public to know about such as him being the JFK assassain.

Comment #100: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  10:51 PM

“About the only thing to admire is that he sees the world in black and white and doesn’t let murderers live.

...pardon?”


Admire verb: To have a high opinion of; esteem or respect.

Comment #101: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  10:54 PM

[Ozymandias is a subtle character and his dialog if you listen to it does show he feels remorse but he has rationalized it.

Remorse?  Maybe, but no where near what he should feel.

I’m disgusted and horrified that my country has attacked Iraq and in doing so killed, maimed, orphaned, widowed and displaced close to 2 million people.  Individual stories of grief hurt, and despite being against the war before it started, I feel a measure of guilt.  The United States is my country, and it is a democracy.

The pain I feel at so many deaths simply does not compare to the utter despair and physical pain I still feel months after a good friend’s child died.  When you know the person, or people close to the person, the grief is orders of magnitude higher.

Every person Ozymandias killed deserves that type of grief, and there’s no human way for him to feel it.  The only way he does it is to rationalize it and numb himself.  It’s the reason for his name:  look upon his works and despair!  There’s no irony to the name here, though, this Ozymandias succeeds, and there is no shadow of a future failure making it all for naught.

No, Ozy is a psychopath, even if he does avert a nuclear war.

Comment #102: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/10  at  10:55 PM

Admire verb: To have a high opinion of; esteem or respect.

“Pardon,” interjection: “Kindly clarify, as I can’t fathom why seeing the world in black and white is admirable.”

Comment #103: Rebecca  on  03/10  at  11:00 PM

too tired,

female nudity, including full frontal is everywhere.  Male frontal nudity?  Automatic MPAA death.  you can rarely get male ass unless it’s backshadowed.

The only reason I think they got away with it here is b/c Doc Manhattan was CG and not “real”.

Comment #104: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/10  at  11:01 PM

“No, Ozy is a psychopath”

Then according to you every airman who dropped bombs, every General, every leader in war is a psychopath since they couldn’t feel any of those deaths due to their actions. Every human for that matter would be a psychopath since they cannot feel any of the millions of deaths that occur from disasters, wars, famines, disease outbreaks.

When you kill a million it isn’t a tradegy or something to greive over.

Comment #105: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  11:05 PM

“female nudity, including full frontal is everywhere.  “

Not from my theater expierance. I am not talking Showtime softcore porn. Theaterical movies it is still a kiss of death unless they put in tons of violence per each act.

Theaterical movies get rated differently if they have female nudity but no violence then if they have female nudity but lots of violence.

““Kindly clarify, as I can’t fathom why seeing the world in black and white is admirable.”

Because Rorschach was the only one who wanted the truth to get out and continue to fight crime wheras the other gray seeing people either gave up, or became murdering psychopaths or went along with Ozy.

Comment #106: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  11:09 PM

Piator, that may be, but he’s still the audience identified character.

Hmm - perhaps that’s a defining characteristic of satire - when the audience comes to that conflict between that identification and their own sensibilities.

Personally, I might well have believed Ozy was right, in the sense of being vindicated by the results (not in the sense that he isn’t a meglomaniac psycho - just a meglomaniac psycho who drew the right conclusion and acted on it).  But if I drew that conclusion, then I’d have no choice but to condone Rorschack’s execution.

Comment #107: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/10  at  11:14 PM

Ozy was the world’s smartest man and wealthiest man for a reason. He actually did a lot of good for the world and well that was his most powerfull act of goodness towards the human race. Saving billions from immenant nuclear war and paving the way for a united humanity that would save tens of billions more lives down the road.

Comment #108: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  11:19 PM

Because Rorschach was the only one who wanted the truth to get out and continue to fight crime wheras the other gray seeing people either gave up, or became murdering psychopaths or went along with Ozy.

Which in regards to how beneficial his worldview is, is the exception rather than the rule.  Do you imagine that in his insistence on seeing the world in only black and white he never seriously injured or killed an innocent man?  Look at how he menaced Moloch who had reformed and was living straight.  That he wanted to tell the truth is moral only in the sense that a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Comment #109: Half Ass Saint  on  03/10  at  11:21 PM

Amanda, we might just call it dystopia.

tootiredoftheright:

Sales of graphic novels in general bookstores continued to grow faster than in comics shops. Bookstores generated $265 million in sales in 2008 compared to about $165 million in sales through the comics shop market (also known as the direct market).  Libraries represent about $25 million in sales.

And for the first time since ICv2 began tracking the size of this market in 2001, manga sales, the largest segment of the graphic novel market, declined, falling 17%, to $175 million.

Manga refers to Japanese style and graphic novel usually refers to Western publishers okay. So yeah manga is much larger then comic books and more popular.

Even Marvel and other comic book authors admit that manga has more readers and sales then their series ever did in their hey day.

Lot of handwaving there.  But you don’t have any statistics for today’s comic sales, or comic sales from the Golden Age, so I don’t know how you can say “manga has more readers and sales then their series ever did in their hey day.”

Let’s go to comics’ heyday.  According to http://enterthestory.com/comic_sales.html in 19,50, Marvel plus DC sold 13 million comics per MONTH.  That’s 152 million a year.

Manga cost $8-$10 each, so you have to divide the gross sales above ($175 million) by 8 or 10 to give you 17.5 to 21 million sold.  It’s behind 1950 comics 8 to 1.

We’re not even taking into account population.  In the US it was 161,325,798 in 1950, while in 2000 it almost doubled, to 291,421,906.  For manga today to be as popular as comic books were in 1950, it would have to sell 1.8 times as well as comics did in 1950, or more than 274 million copies per year.  It’s at least ten times less popular than comic books.

But, what are the comics numbers today?  Maybe it’s fallen behind manga?

Nope, it turns out they’re actually pretty reasonable.

http://www.comichron.com/vitalstatistics/alltime.html shows the number of comic and magazine units sold per month.  They caution that some are not comics but magazines.  Their numbers now are around 8 million per month.  That would be 72 million per year. 

That’s more than manga even if half the units are magazines, which they’re not.

Comment #110: oldfeminist  on  03/10  at  11:21 PM

“Secondly, Alan Moore is deeply conservative.  So before you write him a blank check of artistic license on the homophobia and the sexism and the embrace of violence as an acceptable solution to all our problems (the scene where Roschrach hacks up the child molester screamed “Wingnut Fantasy”), keep in mind that he’s not diverging all that far from his actual beliefs”
___________________________________________________________________________________

First off, thank you for one of the better articles I’ve read concerning WATCHMEN these past few weeks. I look forward to your thoughts after you’ve seen the film.

Secondly… as many others have already pointed out, Alan Moore is far from a deep conservative & I can’t believe that anyone would write such a thing unless it was intentional tongue-in-cheek. As a man who, in the course of his life has dealt drugs, been in a poly relationship with his (now ex-)wife & girlfriend, wrote one of the most strident pro-Gay stories ever written (The Mirror of Love), admitted to fears of England going Fascist in V for Vendetta & is currently a practicing magician, I don’t think Alan Moore is going to be hanging out at Sarah Palin’s house for mooseburgers or chillin’ in da hood with Michael Steele anytime soon.

It is often a mistake that readers make, thinking that characters are the literal mouthpieces of the author. So if Rorschach is a borderline looneytune Objectivist, so must Moore be also. Hardly. Rorscharch was based on the Charlton Comics character The Question - who in turn was created by hardcore Randroid Steve Ditko - and THAT’s where the whole ‘No Compromise’ thing comes from. Not because Alan Moore is hanging out with Alan Greenspan & drinking the blood of stockbrokers by night.

Sheesh.

Comment #111: MHF  on  03/10  at  11:22 PM

My problem with the watchmen movie is it condenses, skips, and otherwise ignores that it is a deconstruction.

No real effort was put into the fact that these are bad people. the inherent contradictions of these people being the heroes are ignored. They turned Ozymandias from Good Guy Who Was Doing The Only Thing He Could (ie an antivillain, to match all the antiheroes running around) and turned him into a plain old villain of the James Bond variety.

There’s no irony to the name here, though, this Ozymandias succeeds, and there is no shadow of a future failure making it all for naught.

no, he doesn’t. in the comic, the New Frontiersman publication was ambiguous as to if they would ever print the journal, which would bring the whole squid incident to light. it might come to naught. it might be permanent. it might fall in between. In the movie, there is no ambiguity. the fat guy is gonna publish it.

That’s the real problem with the whole picture. It removed ambiguity. it wasn’t “brightly colored heroes fighting criminals doesn’t work, because there’s no such thing as black and white in the real world, and people who think there are would end up violent sociopaths” hence, deconstruction.

The movie was just “the world is a dark and scary place. we need dark and scary protectors.”

Comment #112: karpad  on  03/10  at  11:24 PM

Rorscharch was based on the Charlton Comics character The Question

All of the Watchmen characters were based on characters from Charlton.  DC had acquired the rights to them and Moore wanted to use them for Watchemen.  DC didn’t want them spoiled for future use, so Moore created analogues of his own to tell the story.

Rorschach = The Question  
Dr. Manhattan = Captain Atom
Nite Owl = Blue Beetle (right down to aping his flying bug)

etc.

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2009/03/04/before-they-were-watchmen-the-charlton-comics-characters-who-became-dr-manhattan-ozymandias/

Comment #113: Half Ass Saint  on  03/10  at  11:29 PM

Actually karpad, the comic heavily insinuates that it’ll be printed, the ambiguity comes in the next part. The fact that it’s a crank journal published in a crank newspaper. Aka, will the truth matter if the source is discredited whackaloons and more importantly will anyone be more likely to believe it over the other whackaloon nutso stories. It’d be like if conservapedia actually broke a real story but it was just as crazily presented and interpreted as their normal work.

The book and movie make subtle cases that the book publishing will probably make no difference, but the fat guy is probably the next Rorsarch character to continue the whackaloon line (Comedian->Rorsarch->Fat Guy). That’s the ambiguity.

Comment #114: Cerberus  on  03/10  at  11:40 PM

erm. not about Watchmen.
League of Extrodinary Gentlemen (i can’t spell today. sigh)

in the movie, they didn’t REPLACE Mina with “a vampire chick”.
they MADE Mina “A vampire Chick”
as in, it turns out that she wasn’t COMPLETELY cured from Dracula.

that’s all.

Comment #115: denelian  on  03/10  at  11:41 PM

“They caution that some are not comics but magazines.  Their numbers now are around 8 million per month.  That would be 72 million per year.”

Down from 12 million also guess what Dark Horse is a manga seller. Numerous sells data for comic books counts manga among the sales but doesn’t differante in the summaries.

Mangas are much cheaper per volume. It would take five issues of most comics each issue costing 3.00 dollars or more to do one volume of manga.

Graphic novels also retail at a higher price. Manga is indeed more popular just ask any bookstore in ten years they find far more people buying them then buying comic books.

http://www.wired.com/special_multimedia/2007/1511_ff_manga without manga graphic novels wouldn’t be in the book stores and it would be dying out a lot faster then it is now. Sorry but most fans of comic books will tell you it’s a dying field compared to what it was. Movies like Watchmen and the recent Superhero movies are trying to make comic books mainstream again.

Comment #116: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  11:43 PM

“, the comic heavily insinuates that it’ll be printed, the ambiguity comes in the next part. The fact that it’s a crank journal published in a crank newspaper”

Thing is what Rorscharch put it in it wouldn’t likely lead to the truth being discovered since Rorscharch had no evidence to go with it nor what the plot was actually going to do plus Ozy would later on remove all evidence. Likely there is nothing that would lead from the journal to what Ozy did.

Comment #117: tootiredoftheright  on  03/10  at  11:49 PM

tootired:  ‘Numerous sells data for comic books counts manga among the sales but doesn’t differante in the summaries. “

This one is just comics.

Really, your idea that manga now beats the pants off comics at any time in comics history is still broken.  And I’m not saying it because I love comics and hate manga.  I’m saying it because it sounded unlikely when I heard it and two minutes’ Googling and 30 seconds on a calculator said it aint’ so.

Look, I’ll even go along with “it would take five issues of most comics each issue costing 3.00 dollars or more to do one volume of manga” because I know a 5-to-1 ratio won’t break a 10-to-1 ratio.

Proof?

Let’s go to comics’ heyday.  According to http://enterthestory.com/comic_sales.html in 19,50, Marvel plus DC sold 13 million comics per MONTH.  That’s 152 million a year.

152 million comics a year.  And that’s just Marvel and DC, we’re not counting Archie or EC or any others. 

So let’s use your 5 to 1 ratio, divide that number by 5 to get 30 million manga-equivalent a year.  And what do we know about manga sales now?

Manga cost $8-$10 each, so you have to divide the gross sales above ($175 million) by 8 or 10 to give you 17.5 to 21 million sold.

21 million, max.

21 million < 30 million.

Comment #118: oldfeminist  on  03/10  at  11:56 PM

tootired:  “Sorry but most fans of comic books will tell you it’s a dying field compared to what it was.”

I wasn’t saying comics aren’t smaller than they were before.  75 million is less than 152 million, and it shrinks further when you take the double population into account. 

What I’m saying is that manga in the US today hasn’t caught up to the popularity of comics in the 50s, as you claimed.  Not even if we assume one manga is equivalent to five comic books.

Comment #119: oldfeminist  on  03/10  at  11:59 PM

Manga is more popular then comic books and is more mainstream.

Also in the 1950s the sales of comic books drastically decreased. They decreased the number of pages ramping up the number of issues. In other words sales became inflated keeping profits up.

Once again Manga is more popular then regular American comic books today.

Comment #120: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  12:09 AM

Then according to you every airman who dropped bombs, every General, every leader in war is a psychopath since they couldn’t feel any of those deaths due to their actions. Every human for that matter would be a psychopath since they cannot feel any of the millions of deaths that occur from disasters, wars, famines, disease outbreaks.

When you kill a million it isn’t a tradegy or something to greive over.

Yes and no.  I do think every soldier is turned into a bit of a psychopath.  War is evil.  It is the worst thing people do.  Soldiers kill people.  It’s their job. 

I honor and respect the men and women who do it, and rail mightily against the asshole who sent them there on a lie.  Sometimes war is the only option, but it needs to be an absolute last resort b/c it’s mass murder.

And, as such, you have to numb part of your brain and heart to participate in it.  When you are being hunted as well as hunting other humans, it messes you up.  PTSD?  The number of our soldiers that have problems reintegrating into our society?  Who have trouble just recovering from being a target? 

Again, human beings are not good at enormous orders of magnitude.  Is the Holocaust a horror?  Of course, but can anyone truly understand or grieve for 6 million the way they can grieve for their own family?  No.  Doesn’t absolve anyone of the crime, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t mete out justice to those responsible, but Ozymandias tried to claim that he “felt” the death of every person he killed. I call utter bullshit on that.  He couldn’t.  I don’t care how many TV sets he watched.  They weren’t ‘real’ to him, and if you want to give him some superhuman ability to feel and know everyone intimately, and still kill them, well…psychopath!

Ozy was the world’s smartest man and wealthiest man for a reason. He actually did a lot of good for the world and well that was his most powerfull act of goodness towards the human race. Saving billions from immenant nuclear war and paving the way for a united humanity that would save tens of billions more lives down the road.

Again, didn’t read the novel, but lived through a Cold War where it turned out the Russians loved their children, too.  We didn’t blow ourselves up here; no guarantee we would have there.  I also doubt a peace or unity lasting when it’s built on a military alliance (which is what it is—a united front against a ‘rogue’ Dr. Manhattan).  The Nazis and Russians were allies.  The US and Soviets were allies.  Iraq was our ally once upon a time.

An alliance built on fear and nothing else won’t last, especially when Dr. Manhattan is seen to have left the solar system.  After a few years at most, people will chafe at the false chumminess that their fear gave them.

Making killing billions stupid and worthless.

Seriously, even if you accept that he made a true and lasting peace by killing millions, how can you call that an act of “good”?  It’s evil.  We can debate about whether or not it was a necessary evil, but I don’t understand how you could call it “good”.

Comment #121: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/11  at  12:16 AM

“What I’m saying is that manga in the US today hasn’t caught up to the popularity of comics in the 50s”

Mainstream popularity yes since adults, teenagers and children read manga. A lot of people who would never read comic books will read manga and it’s now being requested to be stocked in libraries so I would say it is indeed more popular then comics in the 1950s on the basis of those factors. A lot of people when introduced to manga find it more exciting and more adult orientated then the comic books they grew up with or are familar with.

Comment #122: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  12:34 AM

The last major motion picture I saw that featured full frontal female nudity was “Monty Python’s Life of Brian”, which also featured a very funny full frontal male nudity scene.

Comment #123: Dr. Psycho  on  03/11  at  12:38 AM

Caren, you’re contradicting yourself here:

“The pain I feel at so many deaths simply does not compare to the utter despair and physical pain I still feel months after a good friend’s child died.  When you know the person, or people close to the person, the grief is orders of magnitude higher.

Every person Ozymandias killed deserves that type of grief, and there’s no human way for him to feel it. “

um. unless he knows everyone in the city of new york, how realistic would it be for him to feel personal grief for all those people, any more than for you to feel personal grief for iraqi citizens you don’t know? you’re kind of proving the point here, that he could do it in detached way because he didn’t have to see it, didn’t know the people, and yet. apparently if you read the book you see even more that even afterwards, he’s still questioning himself. he’s not a psychopath. he’s maybe someone with big ideas who accidentally bought into his own hype. that’s what should scare you about him…that’s he’s actually pretty damn sane.

Comment #124: chibi  on  03/11  at  12:44 AM

Dr. Manhattan was clearly an American weapon of war, if you will. If he attacked another country, espeically the Soviet Union, would they really be so eager to join the U.S.? I know Ozymandius included New York in there, but still. It’s pointed out again and again in the film that Manhattan works for the U.S. and its presidents and I would assume that every other country would freak out, even while the U.S. is crying that they got hit too, and blame the U.S. for the tragedy.

If they had any intelligence capability, they’d know that the government would have been growing increasingly worried about Manhattan’s stability from their point of view.  The book makes it clear (I haven’t seen the movie yet, so I don’t know it’s there) that Silk Spectre is basically acting as a government-supported personal escort service to help keep him in line, and that plan is falling apart.

In any event, the attack makes no sense from a military point of view (it doesn’t seriously effect a nation’s military infrastructure, or even seriously affect the nation long-term), so it’s easier to believe that Manhattan has gone off the deep end and pulled off a terrorist attack instead of the US attacking everyone for no discernible strategic benefit.

That’s one way the movie makes more sense then the book.  Manhattan was seen as a threat by everyone, including the US government, and obviously a significantly power threat, so it made sense that they’d accept him as a bad guy and agree to work against him.  Giant squid in New York City?  A lot of “what the hell?” but not too much “This represents a threat to us all!”

Comment #125: KeithM  on  03/11  at  12:46 AM

“We didn’t blow ourselves up here; no guarantee we would have there.  “

The situation was much worse due to Doc Manhatten and well Nixon and lots of anti-Communist hatred. The House Un-American Activities whatever the hell it was called was still active. Things were far worse diplomatically and militarily. There were far more nuclear warheads for instance wasn’t it mentioned that the soviets had 50,000 something warheads? The total is about 65000 for the entire world right now. Basically the Watchmen world had been under far worse threat then our world ever had.

The Doomsday Clock is now five minutes due to global warming and other threats being added to it.

Comment #126: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  12:46 AM

“that’s what should scare you about him…that’s he’s actually pretty damn sane.”

And he was the most humane one of the lot that actually cared about the human race and wanted to better the world. He was the one using his superhero carear to help people the most with famile relief concerts, charities, inventions etc. Yet the guy is the villian for his unspeakable crime against humanity. The most sane, helpfull stable hero without any emotional scaring who winds up possibly saving humanity from itself would be one of the most horrific villians in human history.

Comment #127: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  12:51 AM

Just like I loved the graphic novel it was based on, I loved this movie.  I loved that it wasn’t a “superhero” movie like Spider-Man or Superman or IronMan or any of the others.  I loved that there was actual moral relativism, and not the simplistic good/evil, black-or-white plots we see way too often in media.

Comment #128: Arakiba  on  03/11  at  12:56 AM

That’s one way the movie makes more sense then the book.  Manhattan was seen as a threat by everyone, including the US government, and obviously a significantly power threat, so it made sense that they’d accept him as a bad guy and agree to work against him.  Giant squid in New York City?  A lot of “what the hell?” but not too much “This represents a threat to us all!”

Yeah, it was just something that made me go “hmmm” the second time I saw it. But it is far better than the giant squid.

The last major motion picture I saw that featured full frontal female nudity was “Monty Python’s Life of Brian”, which also featured a very funny full frontal male nudity scene.

Maria Bello in A History of Violence. It’s brief, but it’s there. Angelina Jolie also flashed her pubes in that horrible movie Taking Lives. And Charlize Theron was fully nude in The Devil’s Advocate.

Comment #129: UltraMagnus  on  03/11  at  12:58 AM

tootired, i agree that adrian/ozymandias was the most good-intentioned of the bunch, but i also see that he made a strategic decision that echoes the bombings in japan. in that regard, he really isn’t necessarily any better or worse than anyone who makes a major decision in war. he wasn’t settled with it, even if he put on airs that it was the only thing that even made sense. so it comes back to, one, no, he’s not psychotic, in fact his flaw may be that he’s overly rational and not as compassionate as some believe he should be…but that’s an outward projection. there seems to be some confusion and uncertainty below the surface, but he rationalizes it and says this is the lesser of two evils, and it’s the only thing big enough to work. to me, he’s the most complicated and confusing one. everyone else swings heavily to being sweet and mousy and naive, or totally damaged…or naked and blue and totally removed from humanity. adrian is somewhere in between all that and that makes him fascinating and confusing.

Comment #130: chibi  on  03/11  at  01:08 AM

there seems to be some confusion and uncertainty below the surface,
[BSG]“There’s too much confusion…” headnod[/BSG]
The End is Nigh

Comment #131: Ken Cope  on  03/11  at  01:28 AM

Watchmen is one of the top rated graphic novels and is constantly talked about. If you have ever read a list of great novels of the 20th century Watchmen is actually on the list. Even a breif snippet of movie info should clue one in it isn’t the typical superhero movie hence why it was never made or done on tv.

I’m sorry, I’m no literature scholar, but I had hardly heard of it now, and I’ve heard of all kinds of 20th century novels. 

I have to agree with antigone.  Replaying my memory of it, it’s told as a straight-up superhero tale, and anyone not “in” on the ironical cleverness of it imagines him/herself as being trolled by it, pretty much.  I saw very little of the deeper meaning. 

The problem is that it’s easy to do “meta” in books, but there’s was no effort to create any “meta” distance on the screen.  We started immediately with the murder of the Comedian, and then it focused on the “Whodunit” without alloying us to wonder much about the “Why” until well into the middle of the story.  By then it’s too late.

Comment #132: Mandos  on  03/11  at  01:31 AM

I mean, even if this:

That it’s all a joke.

still doesn’t leave me with the feeling, thinking over the movie, that it had the kind of message Amanda and so on and so forth think it does.  I just don’t think that the movie conveyed the intended message, if it was so intended, to the “graphic novel-ignorant” public.  Rubes such as myself.

Comment #133: Mandos  on  03/11  at  01:34 AM

“ How would potential readers have found out about it in the first place?  Sorry if this is a sidetrack”

This got left behind a long time back, but I can answer from my own experience. I was a teenager when the limited series came out and I bought it because the guy who ran my comic store told me I should—he stuck the first issue in my hand and told me to read it on the spot, and I added it to my subscription list about an hour later. Wish to hell I still had them today, because I suspect they’d be worth a little something.

But that’s the way indy comic stores stay in business these days—the owners know their shit and get people hooked. I didn’t stay hooked—didn’t make enough money slinging chicken—but lots of my friends did.

Comment #134: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  03/11  at  01:35 AM

I mean, for the BSG nerds, imagine if someone watched the Gina Six story arc without knowing any of the context.  Then it would be like, “Why are they torturing that poor woman so?”  That’s how watching the Watchmen looked like to me.  When the presumably lengthy list of holds on the novel at the library ends, I’ll hopefully have time to borrow it and see if indeed the movie reflected the meaning of the book, and whether the book really has this meaning to me.

I suspect it comes down to people who liked Catcher in the Rye vs. people who don’t.  I hated Catcher in the Rye and wish J. D. Salinger had never picked up a pen.

Comment #135: Mandos  on  03/11  at  01:38 AM

We interrupt this discussion with a word from our sponsor, Saturday Morning Watchmen.


(Sorry, I just can’t handle a Watchmen thread this long without throwing that in.)

Comment #136: Quijotesca  on  03/11  at  01:41 AM

unless he knows everyone in the city of new york, how realistic would it be for him to feel personal grief for all those people, any more than for you to feel personal grief for iraqi citizens you don’t know?

No, chibi, I said what I meant.  Ozymandias claims he feels for all the people he kills, and that’s supposed to make him a good guy.  A hero.  He can’t possibly.  He has to has to be detached in order to do it, unless you want to give him a super power that makes him so incredibly intelligent that somehow he can hold millions of individual humans lives in his brain.

Either way, it’s mass murder, and an intrinsic evil.  Whether or not a necessary evil can be debated, but killing millions of people is not and cannot be a good.

Maybe there are more degrees of gray in the novel, which as I said i haven’t read, but in the movie he has no qualms about murdering anyone, from the men he’s worked with to create his bombs to old friends like Dr. Manhattan and Rorschach, to millions of innocents.

That’s psychopathic.  Look upon his works, ye mighty, and despair.  I really don’t think that name was chosen at random; I think that poem was the genesis of the entire piece—what if you have a ‘superhero’ who kills millions?  In a world where all the superheroes are psycho? 

Like I said, it’s such a perfect deconstruction that I’ll need to get it out of my mind before watching “Wolverine”.  Superheroes are evil.  Lock ‘em up, or look upon their works and despair.

Comment #137: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/11  at  01:46 AM

How did I find out about Watchmen? In October of 1986, sitting down to learn how to move CG spaceships printed out on a nine-pen plotter for a cartoon factory in the Valley; for a long while I’d been paying little attention to anything that wasn’t animated. In lieu of gas money for sharing the West Hollywood/Sherman Oaks commute, a writer for the cowboys-in-space first-run syndicated cartoon (who would later co-write the screenplay for The Crow) handed me the first three issues, along with a fresh paperback of Gibson’s Neuromancer. They were both dystopian fantasies. In retrospect, I’m surprised so many of us have lived through much of the best and worst times described in both stories.

Comment #138: Ken Cope  on  03/11  at  01:51 AM

There’s a scene in the movie where people are rioting b/c they want real police back, and not masked vigilantes.  This scene made no sense to me at the time, b/c if the masks were really getting rid of crime, why would anyone care?  My god, we take our shoes off at airports to pretend we’re protecting ourselves from bombs.  Why wouldn’t we love superheroes who really made the world a safer place?

But by the end, when you see what superheroes can do with their ultimate powers and their disregard for the law or any common sense of justice,  yeah, that’s my feeling, too.  Get those psychos the hell away from me and mine.

Comment #139: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/11  at  01:52 AM

You’re not supposed to sympathize with [Rorschach]

To paraphrase Alan Moore, he’s what Batman would be in the real world, a vigilante psychopath with a king-sized death wish.

Comment #140: Ken Cope  on  03/11  at  02:04 AM

“but I had hardly heard of it now, and I’ve heard of all kinds of 20th century novels. 

Sorry but Watchmen has been mentioned lots of times in the popular press and in comic book history specials.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/movies/402439_watchmenprimer06.html is what you need to know plus Gibbons is happy with it and states Alan Moore would be too if he just watched it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123569333628588197.html?mod=article-outset-box

Comment #141: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  02:10 AM

Chet-

I’m trying to frame this as politely as possible… so, um, let me see if I get this straight.

I watch a movie, based on a graphic novel I had never heard of before.  It was marketed as a straight-up superhero film.  I didn’t see enough indications to have it go “this is a deconstruction”.  The
“over-the-top” seemed to be pretty consistent with Iron Age comics that I had read before.

People tell me I’m wrong, so I go back and watch it again.  Same experience, even now I have more scenes fresh in my mind to go “this is a superhero movie”.

And you tell me, because I did not arrive to the same conclusion as you, that I am an intellectual child.

Hmm.

Fuck off.

Comment #142: Antigone  on  03/11  at  02:11 AM

The soundtrack, consisting of songs referenced in Moore’s book, has bothered a lot of people. When I can arrange a babysitter, my spouse and I will get out to see the film, and I’d be both delighted and surprised to hear a reference as sophisticated as the satirical Phil Ochs song lamenting the Kitty Genovese story, the event that was catalyzing for Rorschach’s identity, with his personal connection to the events fetishistically bound in the expressions of his mobile mask/face. The reactions to this film are as telling as a response to a Rorschach blot.

Comment #143: Ken Cope  on  03/11  at  02:18 AM

“There’s a scene in the movie where people are rioting b/c they want real police back, and not masked vigilantes.  This scene made no sense to me at the time, b/c if the masks were really getting rid of crime, why would anyone care?  My god, we take our shoes off at airports to pretend we’re protecting ourselves from bombs.  Why wouldn’t we love superheroes who really made the world a safer place?

Simple they weren’t making the world a safer place. You had the Super Villians spawn as a result as well as gangs becoming far more violent and their numbers increase plus with heroes like The Comedian why would you want Super Villians as well?
They were vigiliantes whose actions became so nasty plus the revelation of what they were really like (sexual deviants, racists)  turned the public against them and since the police until then had to work with them the cops went on strike as a result. The whole thing about the riots was that the NYC police went on strike.

Comment #144: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  02:18 AM

Actually without the bastardification of Chet, I’d say what you may be suffering is a belief that comic books alike, hence why the fixation of interpreting it as an Iron Age Comic Book. That is, your unacknowledged biases against the medium restrict your ability to access or appreciate its basic themes.

That’s not something to be ashamed of as I’m sure we all have our genres that cause us to lock up or be otherwise unable to process due to beliefs about the genre itself or resistance or distraction by the overarching genre savvy.

This block can also be born of a good thing. For instance, I have a hard time watching “dude comedy” and mining out the good stuff, the genre deconstruction stuff, etc… because the genre savvy of frat humor is often too misogynistic or too reminiscent of misogynistic culture for me to appreciate its hidden gems.

Of course, there are also bad reasons to reject a genre. Especially if all you got out of the Iron Age was blood explosions (I mean Sandman is from that time period).

Comment #145: Cerberus  on  03/11  at  02:35 AM

The thing with context is that by definition it’s an individual thing. I thought we were beyond ‘authorial intent’ on this blog. People who have been exposed to Watchmen only through the movie and publicity blitz would certainly not interpret the movie in the same light as I did (as someone who was exposed to Moore’s work right after picking up his stuff after seeing V for Vendetta and thinking it was a good movie), and maybe fanboys should understand that this might reflect more on Snyder’s talent (or lack thereof) and the stupidity of advertisement executives than on the source material.

I know that in my case I loved the movie and I felt it hit all the themes, but I am biased because I read the graphic novel first so I can’t really dissociate Watchmen-the-GN from Watchmen-the-movie. For me it all blends into one meta experience. And Chet, even thought maybe your wife might have unconsciously picked up some cues from you and your reactions to the movie?

BTW, in Canada this was rated PG13. As you can guess this has caused a kind of furor over on sites I frequent where average moviegoers leave reviews.

Comment #146: BlackBloc  on  03/11  at  02:52 AM

We interrupt this discussion with a word from our sponsor, Saturday Morning Watchmen.

Brilliant. Silk Spectre reading a bedtime story to three Dr. Manhattans was the best moment.

Comment #147: Auguste  on  03/11  at  03:12 AM

If you thought Antigone’s review left you scratching your head, try these:

I just saw Watchmen—My Review
and
Watchmen Review Part 2—“Watch Harder”

Comment #148: JCfromNC  on  03/11  at  03:19 AM

Why were you at a furry site?

Comment #149: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  03:23 AM

Because I got there from here: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/you_can_stop_now_jim.php

Not that it’s any of your business—although from what I’ve heard about furries I can understand how one might dismiss anything associated with them out-of-hand.

Comment #150: JCfromNC  on  03/11  at  03:30 AM

Well you could have gone on say rottentomatoes and find reviews that would have you scratching your head that you could have listed. Out of 239 reviews some of the rotten ones just shows how useless a lot of these critcs actually are.

It’s just that well a furry site isn’t some place I would go looking for movie reviews that would leave me scratching my head.

Comment #151: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  03:51 AM

Haven’t read the book, haven’t seen the movie, so I’m not going to go too deep here or argue back and forth. But in defense of Antigone and Mandos, in a lot of the discussions I’ve seen of the movie from long-time fans of the book, people have commented that the audience didn’t seem to be getting it. Like people were cheering or laughing in the wrong places and were taking it at face value as just another slick, ultraviolent action movie, and I’ve seen some discussion of why that is. Again, without reading the book and seeing the movie, I can’t say if it’s a flaw in the movie or a flaw in the medium of movies or something about types of audiences drawn in by the marketing, but something’s going on with this thing.

Comment #152: chingona  on  03/11  at  04:02 AM

The soundtrack, consisting of songs referenced in Moore’s book, has bothered a lot of people. When I can arrange a babysitter, my spouse and I will get out to see the film, and I’d be both delighted and surprised to hear a reference as sophisticated as the satirical Phil Ochs song lamenting the Kitty Genovese story, the event that was catalyzing for Rorschach’s identity, with his personal connection to the events fetishistically bound in the expressions of his mobile mask/face. The reactions to this film are as telling as a response to a Rorschach blot.

I don’t recall what, if any, song was playing during the scene where this would be relevant.  But overall I found the soundtrack distracting and literal.  There were very few songs that I didn’t know, intimately, and I am NOT a music buff by any means.  And seemingly every song was directly commenting on what was going on on-screen.

Now, I’ve heard people say that a lot of the songs were directly promoted by the text, which I haven’t read (yet, I have it next on my booklist).  However, in a comic book, if your audience doesn’t know the song it may as well be more bad poetry.  So more often than not a comic author will pick music he expects his audience to be familiar with, so that it breathes more life into the panels instead of more bad poetry.  Lyrics are also a nice way to change up the way the story is being told, so you can be a little more literal in comics than in movies.  For instance, when the characters are walking towards the fortress in Antarctica, “All Along the Watchtower” is playing, and the line “Two riders were approaching/And the wind began to howl” coincided with a shot of two people walking through blowing snow in silhouette.  In a comic I can imagine this march being stretched out over the course of a couple pages, with nothing happening but walking and the lyrics of a well known song written.  But in a movie it’s just groan-worthily obvious.


In any case, as a person who didn’t know a whole lot about Watchmen before seeing it, it felt like a pretty good movie, but strangely paced.  The plot is odd, for a movie.  At the beginning you are wondering who is killing superheroes and why.  But for the majority of the movie we are getting to know the main characters.  We learn their backstories and their relationships to each other.  We also have this sense of impending nuclear war, but the killing superheroes plotline is largely ignored since no one cares about it but Rorshach.  The conclusion comes together very quickly, and at the end the viewer realizes that the movie is much more about the character flaws of these “heroes” than it was about the “why are superheroes being killed and oh-no-nuclear-war” plot. 

Perhaps it will be more enjoyable on second viewing now that I know I shouldn’t be worried too much about “whodunnit”.


As an aside, the response to “omg blue penis” has been priceless.  I had a loud conversation with my friends upon leaving the theater regarding a neighbor’s groaning every time Dr Manhattan showed up naked.  I theorized about how said neighbor reacts to having to undress.  Does he look down and think to himself, “Oh, GROSS.  UGH.  I wish I could just CUT it OFF.  EWWWW.  Does it HAVE to be ATTACHED to me.  UGHHHH”.  He was also with a woman who was apparently his date.  If I could have one superpower, it would be causing that woman to groan loudly in disgust the next time she looks at his penis.  Because penis is so nasty.

Comment #153: Denise  on  03/11  at  04:06 AM

It’s just that well a furry site isn’t some place I would go looking for movie reviews that would leave me scratching my head.

Ah.  Well, you see, I didn’t “go (to a furry site) looking for movie reviews that would leave me scratching my head”.  I followed a link to a cartoon, and while idly scanning the comments saw links to a Watchmen review with the line “You will fucking love this”, and being the curious fellow that I am, I followed the links to see what this person had to say.  And after seeing a few people on here make comments to the effect of not understanding wny Antigone didn’t grasp what Watchmen was all about, I reminded of these reviews.  I actually don’t actively look around for reviews that leave me scratching my head, I just happened to stumble over this one.  And yes, I’m quite aware that there are idiots more than happy to share their idiotic opinions all over the ‘net, but this person didn’t read like an idiot, just as someone who walked into a movie with one set of expectations, didn’t have them met, and trashed the movie as a result. They may or may be wrong for doing so, but I can’t fault them for not being able to clearly articulate their opinion even if I may not agree with it.

Comment #154: JCfromNC  on  03/11  at  04:16 AM

Feh. 

“..was all about, I was reminded of these…”

Comment #155: JCfromNC  on  03/11  at  04:19 AM

Argh.  Should have (a) proofread before hitting “Blaspheme”; and (b) finished reading my post before posting the correction, ‘cos now I see a second one. hmmm

“They may or may not be wrong…”

Comment #156: JCfromNC  on  03/11  at  04:21 AM

I can’t say if it’s a flaw in the movie or a flaw in the medium of movies or something about types of audiences drawn in by the marketing, but something’s going on with this thing.

One thing I’ve noticed about what few serious comic books I’ve read is that, if they have a main overarching plot, they tend to treat it more like a TV show would than a movie.  For instance, they’ll touch on the plot, then meander off into a little substory, then come back to the plot before going back in time 20 years and telling a main characters backstory, then back to the plot, etc.  Then it all ties together at the end.  It’s kind of similar to the way a TV series like, say, Buffy, or X-Files, would have “plot” episodes and “stand-alone” episodes.  The stand-alones do advance the plot in that they show us something about the characters, but they don’t usually tell us what happens next in the storyline.  However, a movie will usually set up a main conflict to be resolved by the end of the film, and character development is all focused around the way the characters react to that conflict.  Movies are typically much more linear.  (An exception that proves the rule:  Pulp Fiction.  I have heard a lot of comments about that movie saying that it is essentially a regular movie but with the scenes played in random order.  This is because people are trying to figure out the beginning-middle-end of a typical movie plot which is almost completely irrelevant to the point of Pulp Fiction.)

As I said above, I haven’t read the book, and yeah, I don’t think I really got it when I watched it the other night.  This sort of story takes great skill to translate to film, if it can be done at all.  I don’t think the director was up to the task.

As for people thinking we’re supposed to be agreeing with Rorschach…  the unreliable narrator is not very frequently used, especially in movies, so I am not surprised to hear that a lot of people don’t get it.  He does a lot of voiceover and exposition, and isn’t an obvious villain a la Patrick Bateman, so the unsophisticated viewer reasonably assumes that Rorschach is who the movie wants us to root for.

Comment #157: Denise  on  03/11  at  04:26 AM

” can’t say if it’s a flaw in the movie or a flaw in the medium of movies or something about types of audiences drawn in by the marketing, but something’s going on with this thing.

More like a fault with a good portion of the audience.

” This sort of story takes great skill to translate to film, if it can be done at all. “

Even people have to read the graphic novel a few times to really get it. You have to have a good mental recall to fit things together and most people these days well they don’t have the brainpower to do that. It’s why David Lynch films aren’t appreciated by the general movie goers.

Ebert got the meaning of the film and he is often more right about films then wrong. He hadn’t read the graphic novel and admits he judges films not on the transition from another medium but on the film media itself. So to him Watchmen the film was outstanding as a film.

Comment #158: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  04:48 AM

” Movies are typically much more linear. “

Hence why often a person will not want to watch a movie they missed the first half hour of when in most cases you can easily figure out the gist of what happened before from watching the rest of the movie.

Comment #159: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  04:50 AM

“The plot is odd, for a movie.  At the beginning you are wondering who is killing superheroes and why. “

Of course that no one but Rorschach seemed to care should have been a huge tip that someone was off about The Comedian and the whole killing of superheroes. The plot to kill superheroes was just a creation of Rorschach’s mind and wasn’t the actual conspiracy at hand. Most comic books, novels etc would have the killing of a certain group to stop a horrific event as the main plot but there was no such thing at all.

Comment #160: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  04:54 AM

Denise-

Actually Patrick Bateman was seen as the hero of that film to a lot of people and same with the guy in Lolita.

So I think it’s a combination of the sickness in our society, how movies are advertised, and a complete illiteracy to the unreliable narrator.

I also think there is some genre savvy that is probably necessary to all stories (even the supposed “realism” ones). Without the framework to guess intent, you’re just going to be left scratching your head. There are a number of well-received well-made movies I had to throw out into the street because everyone in them was unsympathetic and I can fully understand someone doing the same to Watchmen on further reflection.

People definitely see through their own framework as BlackBloc points out, which ironically is one of the main points of postmodern deconstructions.

Comment #161: Cerberus  on  03/11  at  04:57 AM

So I think it’s a combination of the sickness in our society, how movies are advertised, and a complete illiteracy to the unreliable narrator.

This makes sense.

To use an analogy to A Modest Proposal, it’s easy to laugh at the people who thought Swift was serious and were horrified that he could suggest such a thing, but it would be horrifying if there were people who thought he was serious and thought eating babies sounded like a good idea. And it seems like that’s what you end up with in movies like this with the people cheering something that’s supposed to be really troubling and the - as you said - sickness in our society on display.

Comment #162: chingona  on  03/11  at  06:18 AM

There are a number of well-received well-made movies I had to throw out into the street because everyone in them was unsympathetic

I hated Leaving Las Vegas.

Comment #163: chingona  on  03/11  at  06:19 AM

Watchmen was a good movie, and far better than I expected.  Of course, I expected it to be crap, but still- good movie.  I remember thinking that a Watchmen movie could never be made, since after 9/11 nobody would even consider a movie that ended with New York being hit by a massive terrorist attack.  Turns out it’s ok, as long as a few other world-class cities get bombed too.  I do have some issue with the ending, though, and it’s not the lack of a giant tentacle monster.

First, it was a mistake for the bombing to be so sanitized.  The gut impact this scene has in the book is almost entirely lost, in part because it was bloody, twisted bodies in all directions, and in part because some of those bodies were of characters who’d appeared throughout the book.  Not important characters; in fact its easy to wonder why the hell you’re reading about these people for a page or two in each chapter.  But you get to know them a bit, maybe even like them.  Then Veidt brutally murders them, and three million others.  While I understand why most of this was cut, and agree with that decision, I think a minute or two of screen time could have been used to at least show a little bit of the man and the kid who embrace before the bomb hit.  They’d spent the whole story barely tolerating each other, but in the end it didn’t matter.  Maybe in the director’s cut…

Making the bomb so bloodless was a baffling decision to me considering the huge amount of gratuitous gore throughout the rest of the movie.  A lot of it was added from the original story too, like the hatchet to the head or the arms hacked off with a saw.  The movie also took great care to painstakingly craft a bunch of guys exploding all over everyone in a packed club.  It seems that only cartoonishly overdone and unnecessary gore was allowed in this movie, while the one scene that truly calls for it is as squeaky clean as an operating room.  Before an operation.

So Veidt’s slaughter of millions is overshadowed in this movie by the antics of an imprisoned midget.  The bombing scene certainly had some jarring effect, but the deaths were all as serene and painless as the US wishes all the bombs it drops on civilians were.  That’s a copout.  It’s far too easy for the viewer to rationalize away the horror of the crime just as Veidt has.  He claims to feel every death; it’s certain that the audience doesn’t.

(Of course, since Snyder seems incapable of doing gore in any fashion besides “comedically over-the-top and gratuitous, maybe it’s better this way.)

Oh, and Rorshach’s death scene?  Yeah, in the original Nite Owl isn’t there to narmtastically fall to his knees and scream “NOOOOOOOOOOO!!” and make me cringe.  He’s inside the compound with the traumatized Spectre, who had walked through an abattoir NY rather than a round hole in the ground.  When Manhattan returns from blowing up Rorshach, he finds them both cuddled together naked, sleeping.  He gives a very sad looking smile, and walks away to talk to Veidt before departing the galaxy to become a god.  One of the single most powerful panels of the entire book, and Snyder threw it away so he could have Nite Owl pull a Vader.  Thanks, guy.

Still, good movie, and it took guts to remain as true to the ending as they did.

Also: the fuckers ruined Hallelujah for me forever.  Seriously, you’re gonna play that song when an impotent man is finally able to get it up because he dressed like an owl?  C’mon dude.

Comment #164: Jrod  on  03/11  at  07:14 AM

Ugh, good call on Hallelujah.  Garish and just plain weird.

Comment #165: Brylock  on  03/11  at  07:22 AM

Some of the criticism of Moore here seems to be based on the notion that everything or for that matter anything in Watchmen is a simple and straightforward reflection of the author’s personal beliefs. “Well, Rorschach is a homophobe*, so Moore must be a homophobe. The Comedian is a violent cowboy, so Moore must support that.” It doesn’t work like that, except for Ayn Rand. Having only characters who agree with the author is bad writing.

*I think that’s overstated at best, but that’s a different issue.

Comment #166: Hershele Ostropoler  on  03/11  at  09:40 AM

Veidt is a psychopath because he consciously treats millions of unknowing people as pawns to achieve his personal ends, and actually uses his power to kill them. That his personal ends are altruistic and logical and serve billions of unknowing people is another matter, and the contrast is one of the dilemmas the reader must confront.

And Chet, you’re sounding like Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons. I love Watchmen, still have the original 12 books bagged and boarded somewhere in my geek cache, but given the way the film was marketed it’s unfair to expect that most reviewers, let alone most casual movie-goers, will know what’s coming. It’s taken me at least 2 read-throughs of the graphic novel over the years to get Moore’s main themes.

Although I’m very excited to see the story in another medium, I can also acknowledge that it’s a strange choice for a big-budget wide-release movie adaptation. From what I understand, people who are confused but satisfied coming out of the cinema are going back a second time and/or reading the graphic novel. That’s a good thing.

Comment #167: Gracchus.  on  03/11  at  09:43 AM

I hated Catcher in the Rye and wish J. D. Salinger had never picked up a pen.

Salinger’s short stories are much better.

I’m going to see Watchmen again in IMAX, soon, but I’m starting to think that maybe it didn’t do its job as a movie. I don’t think that movies are really able to tell complicated stories: at best, they examine one or two issues, and if some of the development of the background world is too subtle, the audience will end up missing it. And in this sense, I don’t think that the movie got some of the points across that the crimefighting of the heroes was mostly a waste of time. The audience never really catches on that the “plot to kill superheroes” is made up by Rorschach: in part this is because Veidt is portrayed as a Bond villain who would do precisely that sort of thing such that his killings of Moloch and the Comedian are almost indistinguishable from a typical movie “plot to kill heroes (or retired villains).”

In short, I’m not sure, anymore, where Watchmen really is filmable, beyond an exercise is showing off the pretty pictures that the director and special effects team are capable of putting together.

Comment #168: Tyro  on  03/11  at  09:49 AM

Jrod,

One of the rumors for the bloodless mass murder is studio interference.  Basically, the rumor goes that the studio was with “bad guys” being maimed or murdered in violent, bloody, ways but innocent civilians couldn’t be killed like that.

Between that and not spending any time away from our “heroes” to see how scared the civilian population is of the coming nuclear war, I feel that Ozy’s actions lost the impact they had in the comic. 

And I saw the movie with 4 people who had never read the comic (2 never heard of it before the trailer processing the Dark Knight last year) and they all got the general idea that no one in the movie is a hero.  They had questions like “Did Ozy get away that?” or “Who were those two guys at the end of the movie who died a bloodless death?” or questions about some of the characters we saw in the opening credits (I loved those opening credits; greatest way to explain to newcomers how this world was created).

In short, I thought is was an above-average telling of the main story that mostly lived up to what I expected a film of the Watchmen could be.  I hope the extended DVD allows me to enjoy it more.

Comment #169: Steve (in Peoria)  on  03/11  at  10:07 AM

Oh, “all kinds!” Well, with that encyclopedic command of the works of English literature I’m truly amazed you had never heard of it! Why, there must be 10 or even 20 novels that you’ve read or heard of in your entire life, and there can hardly be many more than that in total!

I’m sorry, but this is uncalled for.  We are not living in a giant comic book literacy classroom.  Or an English class in general.  eg, being a Canuck, I’ve heard of Margaret Atwood and know most of the titles of her books, but I’m really only familiar with Oryx and Crake and The Handmaid’s Tale.

My wife got it immediately and had never read the novel, never read any comic books, knows nothing about superheroes and superhero culture except what she’s gleaned from superhero movies.

In other words she was exactly the sort of “blank slate” viewer who you claim could not possibly have understood it as anything but a poorly-made unironic superhero movie, and she clued in on the themes immediately.

The intended message was communicated. You were simply too lazy or perhaps not bright enough.

Amanda wrote a great post about how subtle the indicators of satire are, and I think her points are valid and correct, but for me the indicator is fairly simple, and it’s up there at the top of the post in yellow and red. A “Have a Nice Day” smiley face spattered with blood. If you look at that - in the trailers, in the material for the movie, on T-shirts, in basically everything that says “Watchmen” - and still don’t understand what you’re stepping into the theater to see, you don’t have the requisite intellectual curiosity to take part in popular culture more complex than Dora the Explorer.

It must be a personality thing.  If you’re a self-assured asshole with a dim view of other people’s viewpoints, or married to one, this movie spoke to you.

It really wasn’t. Smiley face with blood on it, remember? Ticking doomsday clock in the trailer? “Based on the most celebrated graphic novel of all time”? I don’t know how much more indication they had to give you that you were going to see a Watchmen movie, given that the title of the movie was “Watchmen.”

A smiley face with blood on it told me that the movie was about good people (superheros) being murdered.  Sorry if I don’t instantly see a smiley face and think “Oooh! Irony!”  Like I said, I had never heard of “Watchmen” before and I thought it was just another generic group of comic book heroes that teh fanboys wanted made into a movie.  Like “Justice League” or something.

Ah, yes, much as if you had read Proust and come away thinking it was a recipe for cookies. Much as if you read “Finnegan’s Wake” and come away thinking it was about how to have a funeral. Much as if you read “Moby Dick” and assumed it was about the biology of whales.

“Intellectual child” about sums it up.

In a word, what antigone said.

Comment #170: Mandos  on  03/11  at  10:58 AM

And after seeing a few people on here make comments to the effect of not understanding wny Antigone didn’t grasp what Watchmen was all about, I reminded of these reviews.  I actually don’t actively look around for reviews that leave me scratching my head, I just happened to stumble over this one.  And yes, I’m quite aware that there are idiots more than happy to share their idiotic opinions all over the ‘net, but this person didn’t read like an idiot, just as someone who walked into a movie with one set of expectations, didn’t have them met, and trashed the movie as a result. They may or may be wrong for doing so, but I can’t fault them for not being able to clearly articulate their opinion even if I may not agree with it.

Yes, exactly.  From the trailers, it seemed like there were going to be two themes: superheroes being murdered—-blood on the smiley—-and stopping nuclear war.  That seemed to me to be serious matter for a comic book movie, and I watched it with those expectations in mind.  So watching the attempted rape of Silk Spectre or listening to Rohrschach’s commentary, I did notice that they were being portrayed as awful people.  But that didn’t seem particularly clever to me, and it seemed a bit besides the point.

If they hadn’t made Ozymandias into a stereotyped Bond villain at the end, I might have been able to break out of that.  But no, it still seemed like it was about saving the world.  And Freeper audience-trolling.

Comment #171: Mandos  on  03/11  at  11:09 AM

I’ll throw in briefly here as one of the people who had never heard of “Watchmen” prior to this movie. (And, based on what I’ve read of both movie and book, I don’t feel the need to explore deeper, but that’s a personal choice.) I’d be hard pressed, in fact, to name a single comic book / graphic novel / manga title off the top of my head. If that makes me a philistine in Chet’s book, well, I’ll shamefacedly turn in my literature degree at the next possible opportunity (and a pox on my universoty who had us studying Atwood instead of graphic novels, the bastards).

Or I’ll go have a marshmallow.

(To the Canadian who is familiar with Atwood but hasn’t read much of her, DO. At least for myself, I love Atwood dearly. Check out Alias Grace and The Blind Assassin. Ahhhh….)

Comment #172: Essie Elephant  on  03/11  at  11:12 AM

“Is it satire when it’s not funny?  I think that’s the best word for this kind of story-telling, even though it’s actually pretty rare (maybe commenters can come up with some more examples).”

Nobody really addressed this, so if anyone is still reading, I would say Unforgiven does a similar thing with westerns and L.A. Confidential (the book) does it for detective fiction/film noir.  All three take already violent genres and strip away the moral underpinnings of the main characters, leaving the audience without any moral bearings.  I don’t think I consider them “satire” as there is no broad point they are trying to make about their respective genres other than to push the boundries and make good art.

Comment #173: strategichamlet  on  03/11  at  11:25 AM

The problem with Watchmen is that it is 20 years old. It and The Dark Knight Returns deconstructed the superhero mythos in the mid to late 80s. The immediate impact of which was a decade worth of shitty Wolverine knockoffs by people who really didn’t get the point. However, in the mid 90s some folks like Kurt Buseik with Astro City and Moore himself with Tom Strong started reconstructing the superhero mythos. Now, a decade after that movement started, we have entered a “golden age” of superhero film, but these films are products of the reconstruction of the mythos - as Amanda notes, The Dark Knight internalized many of the issues Watchmen raised - and kind of make the ideas in Watchmen seem rather simplistic and trite.

Comment #174: Sarcastro  on  03/11  at  11:39 AM

” Ozymandias into a stereotyped Bond villain “

What? Explain he was nothing like a Bond villain his plan succeded plus he only told what he did after he did it. In the graphic novel it was a gotcha moment.

Comment #175: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  11:43 AM

” he finds them both cuddled together naked, sleeping.  He gives a very sad looking smile, and walks away to talk to Veidt before departing the galaxy to become a god.  One of the single most powerful panels of the entire book, and Snyder threw it away so he could have Nite Owl pull a Vader.  “

Yeah two people that had sex together and he leaves after just talking to Ozy that would have been brilliant to have in a movie. Not!

Comment #176: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  11:51 AM

The only difference between him and a stereotype is that he told them when it was too late.  You may think that’s a big difference with profound implications, I think “meh”.  Gotchas in movies are not uncommon.

Comment #177: Mandos  on  03/11  at  11:53 AM

Nobody really addressed this, so if anyone is still reading, I would say Unforgiven does a similar thing with westerns and L.A. Confidential (the book) does it for detective fiction/film noir.  All three take already violent genres and strip away the moral underpinnings of the main characters, leaving the audience without any moral bearings.

I think the movie of LA Confidential is successful in doing that as well.  Name another cop movie that ends with the hero shooting an unarmed man in the back as its happy ending.

Comment #178: Mnemosyne  on  03/11  at  12:13 PM

Jrod: “Oh, and Rorshach’s death scene?  Yeah, in the original Nite Owl isn’t there to narmtastically fall to his knees and scream “NOOOOOOOOOOO!!” and make me cringe.  He’s inside the compound with the traumatized Spectre, who had walked through an abattoir NY rather than a round hole in the ground.  When Manhattan returns from blowing up Rorshach, he finds them both cuddled together naked, sleeping.  He gives a very sad looking smile, and walks away to talk to Veidt before departing the galaxy to become a god.  One of the single most powerful panels of the entire book, and Snyder threw it away so he could have Nite Owl pull a Vader.  Thanks, guy.”

Ouch.  This gives me misgivings.  I’m still looking forward to the movie, but it’s things like this that make me worry.  A part of what makes the GN work are the nice little touches of quiet melancholy and humor. 

For example, in the GN the burning tenement rescue was played largely as an awkward bit of comedy, with the rescued people looking totally confused and disoriented while being served coffee and regaled with Billie Holliday (if I remember right).  A small, human scale scene.  But the preview clip I saw of the rescue was all slo-mo and ‘splosions, which felt just wrong.

I kind of wish Snyder had been able to follow Moore’s lead in the GN’s portrayal of action scenes:  make no mistake, those sad sack heroes in the comic DID have fightin’ skills, they weren’t incompetent in that regard.  But the action wasn’t lingered over other than the basic fact that comics freeze their panels so that your mind can play it out at the pace it wants—the fights in my mind were always played out quickly in Scorsese style, brutal, ignoble, and quick.  Slow motion Matrix-Fu just doesn’t seem to capture the right spirit somehow.

Despite all of this, though, I’m definitely looking forward to the movie!

Comment #179: Dr. Locrian  on  03/11  at  12:22 PM

“I think the movie of LA Confidential is successful in doing that as well.  Name another cop movie that ends with the hero shooting an unarmed man in the back as its happy ending.”

I like the movie a lot actually, and some of the darkness really comes through, but it is a lot more conventional than the book.  The nominal protagonists, Exley, White, and Vincennes, are not likeable at all, but deeply disturbed and often immoral people.  It also depicts a lot more of the horrifying racism and brutality of the period.

Comment #180: strategichamlet  on  03/11  at  12:35 PM

satirical Phil Ochs song lamenting the Kitty Genovese story, the event that was catalyzing for Rorschach’s identity, with his personal connection to the events fetishistically bound in the expressions of his mobile mask/face.

I don’t recall what, if any, song was playing during the scene where this would be relevant.

It’s just one of the countless moments in the book that could never fit into a film’s running time. The prison psychiatrist learns that the mask material is from a dress Kitty Genovese ordered but didn’t like when she saw it, so Kovacs, working at the dress factory, took it home and obsessed over the fact that the black and white never mixed, then a couple of years later recognized her name in the news as the subject of the Phil Ochs song who was raped and murdered in front of 40 plus witnesses who watched or just went back to sleep, none of them bothering to call the police. They became the face of humanity to Rorschach, whose hood he cut from her dress.

Comment #181: Ken Cope  on  03/11  at  12:37 PM

My two cents about some of the defensiveness on display here. 

Putting thoughts and words into her mind here, but it’s meant in good fun:

Antigone said upthread that she picked up the GN and put it down because of “over the top” and gratuitous violence.  I haven’t seen Snyder’s interpretation, but the fact that she feels that you can skim over a few pages and get all she needs says to me that for whatever reason, she must be allergic to violence and superheroes in general, and that’s all we need to know about why she doesn’t like the movie:  it’s just not going to please a fair chunk of the audience for various reasons.

But if that’s her reaction to the graphic novel, well, it’s kind of picking up Moby Dick and cherry picking the “squeeze, squeeze” sperm scene and declaring that the novel was necro-cetacean porn.  The violence in the comics is the exact opposite of gratuitous, it all serves the story. 

We may not all read and love Watchmen the GN, but it should at least be given a level of respect equal to any prominent prose novel.

Comment #182: Dr. Locrian  on  03/11  at  12:38 PM

You’re certainly making a compelling case for your ability to interpret the visual language of film. Yes, superheroes being murdered - that’s precisely what people first think of when they see a yellow smiley face.

With blood on it.  In a movie about costumed heros.

I guess it’s because of all those bank robberies foiled by Bobby McFerrin in the late 80’s, before he was killed in a martial arts tournament by Meher Baba, his former sensei. (Or not.)

I have no idea what you’re talking about.  You really are the Comic Book Guy.

Ah, naturally I suppose it was the use of Phillip Glass’s score from Koyaanisqatsi in the trailer that indicated that this was nothing more than a lowbrow summer blockbuster popcorn action movie, albeit one released at the beginning of March. (Hrm.) Oh, let me guess - you’ve never heard of Koyaanisqatsi, either.

I’m vaguely aware of it, never seen it or heard the score.  I’m familiar with Philip Glass’s scores from other works, like his opera trilogy.

“Marketed like a superhero movie.” Nobody who’s made that accusation has given any suggestion about how they might have marketed it differently.

As others have pointed out, maybe it just doesn’t work very well in the movie medium.  Maybe you’ve got a gazillion friends who are all ironic hipsters who “get” this sort of thing, but it’s far from universal in my experience.

The “Have a Nice Day” face with blood on it is a pretty obvious and descriptive indicator of the general tone of the movie. Of course, there’s the title, which would have indicated what kind of movie you were going to after roughly 30 seconds of looking it up on Wikipedia. The aforementioned Phillip Glass soundtrack in the trailers. The R rating for explicit sex, nudity, language, and violence. I mean a guy burns a guy to death with a flamethrower, right there in the trailer, right after he lights a cigar with it.

Why would I sit around looking up movie titles on Wikipedia?  I check Yahoo Movies! for user ratings and that’s about it.  Was I supposed to study before going to the movies?  Again, you really are the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.  It’s very apt.

Lots of movies told straight-up have extreme violence in them these days.

” The truth is, the tone of the movie was amply apparent to anyone who didn’t walk into a movie theater completely ignorant of the language of storytelling and moviemaking. All of your attempts to excuse your ignorance and shortsightedness really prove my point - you have to be a seriously unsophisticated viewer to miss the themes that Watchmen: The Movie beats you about the head and shoulders with. (I loved it, though. Gonna catch it again this weekend, with a few more people who have never read the comic.)

Oh God.  The “language of storytelling and moviemaking”.  *groan*  Ebert I ain’t.  Just an occasional movie watcher.  In fact, only lately have I gone to movie theatres with any regularity.  And I consume quite a bit of…non-ironic, straight-up SF novels and television.  The Unreliable Narrator is a niche industry, literarily speaking. 

Next you’ll be wondering how many depressing Ingmar Bergman films I’ve watched (precisely one and I don’t plan on watching any more).  And Wuthering Heights was very boring as a novel.  Sorry for not being on the “in” crowd.

Comment #183: Mandos  on  03/11  at  12:42 PM

“About the only thing to admire is that he sees the world in black and white and doesn’t let murderers live.

I’m pretty sure we weren’t supposed to admire this about Rorschach. Part of the problem is that a good number of the people watching this movie appear to be dumber than a box of rocks. It’s not that difficult, people. It’s a deconstruction of superhero/comic book tropes. I got this and I don’t even read comic books. I found the movie enjoyable, more enjoyable than other superhero movies.

I’ll shamefacedly turn in my literature degree at the next possible opportunity

Yeah! You’re some awesome, you don’t read genre fiction like the rest of us illiterate slobs. Go you! Oh, except for Margaret Atwood, who writes science fiction.

Comment #184: Entomologista  on  03/11  at  12:46 PM

I don’t get it.  Would we be so casual throwing out insults like “The Novel Guy?”  Or “The Fine Arts Guy,”  or “The Poetry Guy.”  Why is it an insult to say “The Comic Guy?”  (Yes, I know it’s still funny on the Simpsons, but still, I thought we were beyond the phase where caring about comics was seen as any more degrading than caring about any other branch of the arts)

Comment #185: Dr. Locrian  on  03/11  at  12:50 PM

I think the movie of LA Confidential is successful in doing that as well.

Deep down, I wanted LA Confidential to win “Best Picture” in 1998, even though I knew it had no chance against Titanic.

And Chet, why is it that almost all comments from you are self-righteous rants?

Oh, let me guess - you’ve never heard of Koyaanisqatsi, either.

Plenty of people have heard of it, but for most people, the movie is a real waste of time and isn’t something of any particular importance.

Watchmen is an epic film. Its weaknesses stem from the exact reasons I predicted it would have weaknesses: because Snyder directed it, and the guy comes from the “look at the pretty pictures” school of filmmaking. If you wanted to be awed by the the visual effects involved with seeing Dr. Manhattan and the destruction of New York and the visual symbols of the comic put to film, then you go to see Watchmen and judge it on those terms. “Depicting” the world of Watchmen isn’t just about making nice pictures and detailed sets. It’s about constructing a believable world. I think film in general and Snyder in particular have a problem with this. Still, coming from the guy who made as broken a movie as 300 (which you can appreciate slightly more if you realize that it’s also an unreliable narrator movie), it came out a lot better than I expected.

Comment #186: Tyro  on  03/11  at  01:00 PM

I don’t get it.  Would we be so casual throwing out insults like “The Novel Guy?” Or “The Fine Arts Guy,” or “The Poetry Guy.” Why is it an insult to say “The Comic Guy?” (Yes, I know it’s still funny on the Simpsons, but still, I thought we were beyond the phase where caring about comics was seen as any more degrading than caring about any other branch of the arts)

I have nothing against people who like comic books.  I recently read about half of Y: The Last Man (awesome) and have been looking for library copies of Ex Machina on the recommendation of friends.

What I do have is a dislike of people who tell me that I’m an idiot because I’m not familiar with XYZ touchtone of whatever branch of literature they like or style of narrative they think is oh so hip and cool.  That is what the Comic Book Guy is parodying.  The Simpsons is not telling you not to like comic books.

Tyro is right.  Watchmen is visually stunning and in some ways that detracts from the message.

As for genre vs. literary fiction, I don’t think that Essie was mocking genre fiction as such, even though it may or may not always be to her taste.  But just as she encouraged me to read more Atwood…

Comment #187: Mandos  on  03/11  at  01:11 PM

Mandos:

To be more clear, I know what you mean, and Chet shouldn’t have just said “F**k you.”  That didn’t help.

But Watchmen is pretty much THE Graphic Novel, the one that marked the sea change in American pop culture where people started to take comics more seriously.  It’s audience is far beyond a few hardcore ironical hipster types.  I’m not exaggerating when I say that Watchmen is kind of the comics equivalent of Citizen Kane for superhero comics, for better AND worse (I say this as someone who liked Moore’s “American Gothic” Swamp Thing sequence a bit better than Watchmen, but I’m more of a horror buff). 

So a little ribbing is definitely deserved of anyone who likes comics but hasn’t read it!

Comment #188: Dr. Locrian  on  03/11  at  01:21 PM

Yeah! You’re some awesome, you don’t read genre fiction like the rest of us illiterate slobs. Go you! Oh, except for Margaret Atwood, who writes science fiction.

*facepalm*

Entomologista, the comment was directed at Chet, who had the balls to suggest that anyone who had never heard of Watchmen had never read more than 20 books, tops.

My point was that the world of literature is a bit larger than that NOT that there’s anything wrong with genre fiction.

If it’s not about you, Entomologista, then it’s not about you. Simple.

Comment #189: Essie Elephant  on  03/11  at  01:22 PM

“Marketed like a superhero movie.” Nobody who’s made that accusation has given any suggestion about how they might have marketed it differently.

Wait, so for criticism to be valid in Chetland, you also have to say how you’d fix it?  What are you, Snyder’s mother?  ‘I’d like to see any of you ungrateful nits do any better, nyah!’

Comment #190: Brylock  on  03/11  at  01:28 PM

I’ve heard that Alan Moore was disturbed by fans confessing to him how much they liked Rorschach and it got to the point where he once said that he wished he hadn’t written the character. (Don’t know if that’s true or not, but what I know about Alan Moore doesn’t jibe with “conservative.”)

Comment #191: PixelFish  on  03/11  at  01:31 PM

The point Chet was making is that you don’t have to be familiar with any comic books in order to understand that “Watchmen” was a deconstruction of comic book tropes. I’m not in any way hip and I don’t read comic books (actually I mostly read sci-fi) but the themes in “Watchmen” were nonetheless obvious to me. There are a lot of things I don’t “get”, like why people think Faulkner is awesome, so some people might not “get” the movie as a matter of taste. But Antigone’s analysis was just, well, dumb.

Comment #192: Entomologista  on  03/11  at  01:33 PM

Chet: Watchmen is one of the top rated graphic novels and is constantly talked about. If you have ever read a list of great novels of the 20th century Watchmen is actually on the list.

Mandos: I’m sorry, I’m no literature scholar, but I had hardly heard of it now, and I’ve heard of all kinds of 20th century novels.

Chet: Oh, “all kinds!” Well, with that encyclopedic command of the works of English literature I’m truly amazed you had never heard of it! Why, there must be 10 or even 20 novels that you’ve read or heard of in your entire life, and there can hardly be many more than that in total!

Entomologista: Yeah! You’re some awesome, you don’t read genre fiction like the rest of us illiterate slobs. Go you! Oh, except for Margaret Atwood, who writes science fiction. The point Chet was making is that you don’t have to be familiar with any comic books in order to understand that “Watchmen” was a deconstruction of comic book tropes….Antigone’s analysis was just, well, dumb.

Entomologista, if you must insist on making this about you, you might at least note that Chet’s comment in question was directed at Mandos, not Antigone. Just a suggestion.

Frankly, you seem like you are commented on a completely different Chet comment than I am. That’s understandable, the mistake, I mean, not your unnecessary condescension nor your strange assumption that I don’t read science fiction.

Comment #193: Essie Elephant  on  03/11  at  01:48 PM

I think it’s hard to deconstruct tropes. I suspect it might be especially hard in film because the actors and the directors are so invested in those tropes to begin with. Moore’s active dislike of the tropes in the superhero genre helped him write Watchmen. However, deep down, I can imagine that Snyder and the actors really wanted their characters to seem good and redeemable and heroic and needed to feel that the superhero enterprise wasn’t hopeless/ridiculous.

This is much like American Beauty where, I think, Kevin Spacey had a hard time portraying Lester as a narcissistic anti-hero. He and the actor probably sympathize with and identify with the characters too much to make them truly pathetic/unsympathetic.

And we, the audience, are too attached to our tropes to really provide a mass market for their deconstruction. I’m not convinced you can do any better than creating a Lester/Rorscach/J.D./Tyler Durden sort of character who appeals, in their own way, to a mass audience while (successfull or unsuccessfully) trying to find a niche audience that can understand how those characters are actually mocking/subverting the archetypes they’re supposed to embody.

Comment #194: Tyro  on  03/11  at  01:54 PM

I’d be hard pressed, in fact, to name a single comic book / graphic novel / manga title off the top of my head. If that makes me a philistine in Chet’s book, well, I’ll shamefacedly turn in my literature degree at the next possible opportunity (and a pox on my universoty who had us studying Atwood instead of graphic novels, the bastards).

You made a comment that people other than Chet have the ability to read. We are free to comment as well, I presume. If not, please append your posts with “Only Chet respond to this, kthxbai”. Let’s review. First, you admit that you haven’t read and can’t even name any comic books, graphic novels, or manga. Next, you go on to claim that you hold a degree in literature, which means that you are more educated in the subject than the average person. Therefore, your reader could conclude that people who are educated in literature do not need to read or know anything about comic books, graphic novels, or manga to be well versed in the subject. We’re all still supposed to think you’re well-read even though you haven’t actually read any comic books, graphic novels, or manga, aren’t we? Sure, there’s nothing wrong with genre fiction. It just isn’t Literature, am I right?

Comment #195: Entomologista  on  03/11  at  01:57 PM

Entomologista does have a point!  It is kind of implied (unintentionally no doubt) that it would be idiotic to call someone a philistine for not having read any comics. 

I don’t think I’d be proud to say that I’ve never read any novels or looked at any paintings or read any poetry.  So I don’t understand why you’d boast about having a literature degree and then admit that you’ve never sampled comics.

Oh, and forums are inherently a chaotic way of having conversations, what with everyone seeing everything that people have said and getting involved one way or another, so of course it’s not going to be treated like a private conversation.

Comment #196: Dr. Locrian  on  03/11  at  02:13 PM

Cerberus: in a perverse twist, “reputable” papers Gazette and Nova Express are, respectively, ineffectual and a Veidt Enterprises puppet, and wingnut paper The New Frontiersman and children comic book Tales of the Black Freighter are relevant and accurate. The New Frontiersman’s inquiry into the disappearance of Max Shea is surprisingly close to the truth, even making the connection with the stolen psychic brain, and the “Marooned” episode of the Tales is the ultimate “means justifies the ends” allegory

Comment #197: KJK::Hyperion  on  03/11  at  02:16 PM

no, he doesn’t. in the comic, the New Frontiersman publication was ambiguous as to if they would ever print the journal, which would bring the whole squid incident to light. it might come to naught. it might be permanent. it might fall in between. In the movie, there is no ambiguity. the fat guy is gonna publish it.

There’s more ambiguity about whether or not he’ll publish it, but there’s less about whether Veidt’s little gambit is actually going to change anything. Watchmen is especially interesting because what’s going on in the backgrounds of the cities tells as much of a story as the events themselves, especially the way that the propaganda posters develop. As time passes, they become more and more fasisctic, with graffiti reflecting the public’s dissatisfaction with events. We’re supposed to believe that this suddenly changes, but one of the last images that we see is someone putting up one of those very same “unity is strength” fascism posters on a clean wall. Just like in the comic’s past, when the propaganda was pristine. Veidt hasn’t changed the forces that drove human beings to the edge of war; he’s only forced them back somewhat. And that just means that he’s sacrificed 15 million people, all the while deluding himself into thinking that it won’t just require an even bigger sacrifice next time. That’s why Veidt’s little run-in with Dr. Manhattan at the end of the comic is so important; it shows Veidt’s last gasp of sanity before completely drowning in his idea of himself as God.

Comment #198: Sherm  on  03/11  at  02:23 PM

I think some people are overestimating the degree to which comics are really a niche medium. yes, it’s a popular niche medium, but it’s like someone telling me that they’ve never seen a Gilbert and Sullivan musical or never read a romance novel or never read science fiction (no, Thomas Pynchon does not count!).

It is completely reasonable to have never read comics, particularly if you were not a teenager in the 1980s or developed some interest in alt-culture in the recent past. A degree in literature followed by a career related to your field strikes me as the group least likely to have developed any interest in comics.

Heck, I’ve never read any manga: it’s just not on my radar, any more than an affection for snowmobiling is on my radar.

Comment #199: Tyro  on  03/11  at  02:25 PM

It is kind of implied (unintentionally no doubt) that it would be idiotic to call someone a philistine for not having read any comics.

Well, the reason that was implied was because I DO think it’s idiotic to call someone a philistine for not having read comics.

I, in fact, think it’s idiotic to call anyone a phlisitine or imply that they have read little to nothing if they have not sampled XYZ genre. Literature is more complicated than that.

I like Atwood, but I don’t expect everyone to have read Atwood. And if I met someone who had never heard of Atwood, yet still claimed to be well-read, I would take them at their word and would assume that Atwood had passed under their radar. After all, there’s a lot of books out there to read. Same with any other author or genre out there.

I would not pass jugdment on someone who had only read manga and claimed to be well-read. I am amused by this thread developing that I only allow Literature (defined as what? by who?) as a worthwhile pursuit. Not at all. I am merely saying that it is possible to be well-read without having heard of Watchmen. Or any OTHER book, for that matter.

Comment #200: Essie Elephant  on  03/11  at  02:33 PM

You know, as someone who hadn’t read Watchman but had heard of it, understood it to be a huge graphic novel phenomenon, I disagree the film was completely easy to understand and anyone who didn’t ‘get it’ is an idiot.
I didn’t watch the previews and think “Oh neat, this will be an interesting deconstruction of the superhero!” The impression I got from the previews was “Comic book hero movie!! Comic book hero movie!! Look at how awesome our graphics are!! We can do awesome graphics!!! Did I mention it was based on a comic book?!! Oh yeah! ‘I will say, no” see that means it’ll be dark!! You like dark right, that’s why you’re going to dark knight returns!! Comic book hero movie, reserve your tickets now nerds!!” Basically no implication of the plot at all. The only association I got with the smiley face with blood was “that’s the Watchmen symbol.”
My first impression leaving the theater was “that was a good movie, but not overall likable, but that wasn’t the point, was it? I suppose I better get around to reading the book now.”
Reading the post and thread here was enlightening because I hadn’t immediately left with the impression that it was satire or a deconstruction, which could be the fault of the movie or simply that I wasn’t in the frame of mind to think deeply about the symbolism behind every plot point. I did kind of come away thinking it was oddly paced, could’ve used an intermission, half of the gore was unnecessary and was overall about failure to be heroes. The boyfriend and I both agreed that there would probably be plenty of people coming away from Rorschach thinking he is a pretty cool guy, although it is obvious that his insanity isn’t okay, it is excused because he fights well and is one of them. Hating on liberals, deviants and women is okay, because everyone needs a friend. The fact that this isn’t supposed to be admired in Rorschach or the Watchmen wasn’t communicated well.

Comment #201: Tenya  on  03/11  at  02:36 PM

I think some people are overestimating the degree to which comics are really a niche medium. yes, it’s a popular niche medium, but it’s like someone telling me that they’ve never seen a Gilbert and Sullivan musical or never read a romance novel or never read science fiction (no, Thomas Pynchon does not count!).

It is completely reasonable to have never read comics, particularly if you were not a teenager in the 1980s or developed some interest in alt-culture in the recent past. A degree in literature followed by a career related to your field strikes me as the group least likely to have developed any interest in comics.

This. Thank you. Exactly. As a follow-up, I pointed out my degree in literature not to brag or try to pull rank, but just to point out that, yes, one can be quite well-read without having sampled comics. Apparently that’s an offensive statement now?

I am interested in hearing, though, that I have cultural autism because I don’t know who Bobby McFerrin is. I’ve heard the song once, in a Futurama episode (the bee / honey one), but that’s about it. Hmm. Is it possible this is a cranky “get off my lawn” thing? Point of fact, I was NOT a teenager in the 80’s, but was in fact much younger.

Comment #202: Essie Elephant  on  03/11  at  02:40 PM

I shouldn’t blame a movie when it requires a little work on my part to be rewarding.

Here’s where I disagree: studio films are a mass-market medium. As such, if they can’t be appreciated and understood by a mass audience, then the movie has failed. I suspect that trying to distill the message of Watchmen into something filmable, satisfying the fanboys, and finding a director and actors who would have been willing to go along with it all was a difficult order to fill.

As time goes on, I suspect that Watchmen will be seen as a movie that is about the only things it really had time for: Dr. Manhattan’s detachment from humanity and the only things that can motivate him to care about whether life on earth continues or not and Rorschach’s as an admirable psychopath. These ideas will likely dominate our memory of what Watchmen was all about. The world in which Watchmen resides wasn’t fully devloped (just a few seconds of watching hippies get killed and Vietnamese celebrating America, with a minute or so of the Comedian beating up protesters while Night Owl stands by and feels vaguely bad about it but doesn’t do anything). Even in a 3 hour movie, there’s only time to do one or two things. Snyder decided to focus mostly on Dr. Manhattan and Rorschach. Nothing wrong with that, exactly, but the audience has to pick out the rest of the material embedded in the film if they really want to understand it.

Comment #203: Tyro  on  03/11  at  02:45 PM

Essie:  “I like Atwood, but I don’t expect everyone to have read Atwood. And if I met someone who had never heard of Atwood, yet still claimed to be well-read, I would take them at their word and would assume that Atwood had passed under their radar. After all, there’s a lot of books out there to read. Same with any other author or genre out there.

I would not pass jugdment on someone who had only read manga and claimed to be well-read.”

Well, this makes your point a little clearer.  But if you’re going simply on your earlier quote, what comes across is that you had better things to do, i.e. read Atwood and get a Lit degree, than read comics, which *does* sound like you’re passing judgement.  No problem, just your typical message board misunderstanding.

Comment #204: Dr. Locrian  on  03/11  at  02:46 PM

It’s idiotic for someone to consider themselves “well-read” because they’re read “loads” of books.

It seems that it is YOU who is making the “only the RIGHT kinds of books” count argument. “Right” as defined by you, of course.

And when I see someone who thinks their literature degree means they don’t have to read books like Lord of the Rings because their status as genre literature mean they “don’t count” in some way, I know I’m talking to a snobbish idiot, not someone who who really approaches literature with a critical eye, independent judgment

I never said that certain works “don’t count” (YOU are implying that you believe that, but we’ll pass that for the moment). I said that it’s possible to be well read and not heard of certain books. Including Watchmen. Point of fact, I have read LoTR, several times, but I like it less each time I read it. The prose is just too heavy and plodding for my own personal tastes. You mileage may vary.

Really? Would you consider me well-read if I told you I had never heard of Moby Dick or Finnegan’s Wake? If I had no idea who Shakespeare or Emily Dickinson (or even just e.e. cummings) were or what their contributions to English literature were? But that I’d read “loads” of other books?

Absolutely! I’d also probably assume (just as a guess) that you were coming from a different culture than I, given how difficult it is to avoid mention of those books and authors in American schooling districts, but I certainly would take you at your word that you were “well-read”, in the absense of other data points. Why wouldn’t I? (It follows from your comment that a Chinese student who hasn’t heard of e.e. cummings is a sheer poseur in the Realm Of Literature As Defined By Chet. Odd.)

There are some works that well-read people have read, or at least have heard of, by definition.

Ah. The Canon Of True Works Of Literature (Which Also Includes Watchmen). I’ve lost my copy… had one around here somewhere… Incidentally, people who complete their Lit degrees learn that this is a snobbish fallacy. How sad that you don’t get that.

To be ignorant of them is not to be well-read; it’s to have pretensions of intelligence based on having read “loads” of books.

Again, people of different cultures who haven’t read Shakespeare can fuck off, eh? American students who haven’t heard of e.e. cummings for whatever reason, or whatever else you define as essential, aren’t really well-read, the snotty bastards. Why, in MY day, we walked uphill to school BOTH ways and Moby Dick was an American Classic and why are those kids always on my lawn?

Being well-read isn’t about having a ton of notches on your bookshelf.

Except, of course, Shakespeare, Finnegan’s Wake, e.e cummings, and Watchmen. Those are, let’s see, how did you put it? “Works that well-read people have read, or at least have heard of, by definition”.

Someone who sees works as unrelated, as discreet entities to be read and then forgotten - leaving only the bragging rights of having suffered through them - is not “well-read”; they’re a pretentious, arrogant ass.

Which is why Mandos is NOT well-read, because he hasn’t heard of Watchmen. I get it now.

Comment #205: Essie Elephant  on  03/11  at  03:44 PM

Dr. Locrian,

No harm, no foul. I swear I wasn’t passing judgment on comics - they just haven’t been on my radar and I don’t feel the need to run out and start right now when I’m got some much on my “to read” list already.

My ONLY point was that it was ridiculous to claim that “well-read” HAD to equal “has heard of or read Watchmen”. I only pulled rank because I figured no one would accuse a Lit major of NOT being well-read since she had never heard of or read Watchmen.

Just backing up Mandos against an unfair charge. smile

Comment #206: Essie Elephant  on  03/11  at  03:48 PM

People who don’t read the books - or more to the point, who shun and refuse to even consider - the movies they pan are based on are castigated for it ALL THE TIME. That doesn’t change when it’s the funny papers.

And Mandos is going deeper than scorning source material; Mandos is saying that there is only one reading of marketing materials the meaning of which is, I presume, explicated more fully in the film itself. It’s not like other films don’t have enigmatic and ironic images in their marketing.

Just as we shouldn’t give this movie a pass because it’s based on holy writ, neither should we slag it because it’s got a connection to pop culture.

Comment #207: Auguste  on  03/11  at  03:53 PM

Auguste, pardon me, but where is Mandos scorning the source material?

All I see him saying is that:

1. The point of the book seemed lost in the movie IF you were unfamiliar with the source.
2. The trailers obscurred the point further.
3. No, it does not mean someone is not well-read if they hadn’t heard of the book beforehand, geez.

Comment #208: Essie Elephant  on  03/11  at  04:21 PM

Chet, Watchmen is a niche work. Sorry, it is. It can’t even be called anything other than “genre fiction” because its very existence depends on superhero comics to begin with.

People didn’t have Watchmen posters. Reporters don’t talk about the influence of Watchmen in news articles. It’s not taught in classes. It’s not that influential outside of its own milleu. The marketting cannot ever be compared to anything like the Batman or Superman movies, because the public already has a close familiarity with them.

The LoTR movies, by contrast, work as standalone movies that even someone not familiar with the books but had watched other fantasy films could appreciate—the only legitimate complaint being that the first one didn’t have an “end.”

Seriously, get off your high horse: the movie wasn’t marketed as a “deconstruction of the superhero genre.” It was marketed as a “special effects costumed superhero science fiction movie” (which it is, when you get right down to it). And since the general public is looking for some action, adventure, and special effects when they go see the movie, lots of people saw it, because it fulfills those needs, mostly. As a social satire/comic book satire, it only sort of works. And there’s no reason anyone would be familiar with a work that has little relevance outside of the community of people who are serious readers of comics (which is a heckuva lot more of a niche group than you seem to think it is).

Comment #209: Tyro  on  03/11  at  04:55 PM

“The LoTR movies, by contrast, work as standalone movies that even someone not familiar with the books but had watched other fantasy films could appreciate—the only legitimate complaint being that the first one didn’t have an “end.” “

Of course you are neglecting that the books which are decades old have influenced most fantasy books and films since it’s publication so it’s not hard to appreciate it.

Comment #210: tootiredoftheright  on  03/11  at  05:25 PM

Thank you Essie for saying everything I’d have said if I were online to say it smile

Mainly, it’s funny that people are getting defensive because I claimed myself to be “well-read”.  I don’t know where I said that.  I’m well-read in some things (I like to think) and not in others.  Comic books happen to be one genre in which I’m not well-read. 80s pop music is another.  I consider myself to be reasonably well-read in contemporary SF and fantasy, and well-listened in opera.

As such a person, Watchmen didn’t deliver the message Chet thinks was obvious.  So sue me for not getting it; I assure you that many perfectly normal people didn’t get it either.  Some did.  *shrug*

Comment #211: Mandos  on  03/11  at  05:35 PM

Oh yes, and literature is too large to define what “well-read” means very well.  I am as Tolkien-geek as Tolkien geek gets (read the Unfinished Tales, and I’m Mandos for Heaven’s sake).  But I know enough people who have little sympathy for the influence of LoTR in literature.  I think their lives might be enriched by reading it, but they are well-read and well-educated in things I haven’t had time to get to either…certainly not ignorant rubes. 

The defensiveness is what gets the Comic Book Guy charge.

Comment #212: Mandos  on  03/11  at  05:45 PM

I’m accusing you of it, right now. How pitiful that you completed an entire degree having learned absolutely nothing except that you could bullshit your way through without reading the books.

The lols. smile

Which is why I said, at the very beginning:

If that makes me a philistine in Chet’s book, well, I’ll shamefacedly turn in my literature degree at the next possible opportunity (and a pox on my universoty who had us studying Atwood instead of graphic novels, the bastards).

Or I’ll go have a marshmallow.

I would await my apology from Ento for accusing me of not getting your point when I obviously got it perfectly, but I won’t hold my breath, haha. I bear no grudges. smile

Chet, I do so love being lectured on who isn’t allowed to call themselves well-read by a person who claims that, by his own definition, he is NOT “well-read”. No True Scotsman, indeed.

Comment #213: Essie Elephant  on  03/11  at  05:45 PM

The irony in all this is for the past few months I’ve had to endure fanboys that were worried (because of the publicity blitz and the way the marketers were pushing that movie) that Snyder botched it up and made it into a standard superhero action movie to cater to the masses. Now those who weren’t fans of the comic book and got suckered into attending the movie because the promotional material led them to believe *the exact same thing as the fanboys* (except the fanboys thought this would be a negative, whereas I expect people who went to see that movie with this assumption would think it a positive) complain about their being misled and suddenly the fanboys cry out that nobody could possibly have thought that Watchmen was going to be a standard action flick?

Comment #214: BlackBloc  on  03/11  at  05:53 PM

I’d have been very happy to watch the ironic moral film noir that it was supposed to have been, but it wasn’t clear in the movie itself that it was so.  Blood on a smiley is not that informative.  It signifies “dead good guys” to me.

Comment #215: Mandos  on  03/11  at  05:58 PM

Well, and that was surely it - you assumed this was a movie for nerds, only for nerds, and who gives a fuck about nerds? Nothing that they make could possibly matter; nothing that they like could possibly have any deep meaning. They’re just fucking nerds, what could they possibly like that was any good?

And you wonder why that kind of pretentious snobbery, especially from people who don’t know what they’re talking about, engenders a spirited response? You just told me that the things I like, the things that are familiar to me, the things I find meaning in, don’t matter at all - that me, and people like me, don’t matter at all. “That’s a nerd movie; it can’t possibly be significant in any way.”

Wow. Just, wow, you take the idea that my interpretation of how the movie was presented in a single preview (I didn’t see the later one you mentioned) to be an all-out attack on you and everyone like you (like, uh, me?) because of using the phrase nerd? I identify myself as one. I never said that there is no meaning in what a comic book nerd would want to see, only that I think it was marketed because whoever makes the previews believed (which seems true from the reviews) that all needed to do was show a cape, some special effects and advertised that it was a comic book movie to get the seats filled. That hardly means that it couldn’t have a deeper plot, only that I didn’t feel it was marketed like that. I can see why you’re being “spirited,” by which I’ll imagine you mean completely insulting, because you’re interpreting every disagreement as this attack against you, yours and everything held dear. Which really, it wasn’t.

Comment #216: Tenya  on  03/11  at  06:01 PM

Mandos, you didn’t get the movie.  Your doggedness is not that of someone who is right, but someone who cannot accept he’s wrong.  Just FYI.

Comment #217: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/11  at  06:19 PM

And as a literature major, I have to disavow using the degree as a shield to protect yourself from criticism because you’re ignorant of a major cultural touchstone.  Not that it’s bad to be ignorant of it.  But when you’re called out on it, it’s wise to be humble and realize perhaps there’s a hole in your knowledge.  I didn’t read “Watchmen” until last year.  That’s on me.

Comment #218: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/11  at  06:34 PM

Mandos, you didn’t get the movie.  Your doggedness is not that of someone who is right, but someone who cannot accept he’s wrong.  Just FYI.

Amanda, he’s admitted he didn’t “get” the point. He’s just saying that the point was very difficult to “get” if you were new to the material.

Since only someone who IS “new to the material” would be qualified to feel this way, someone who has read the book (like yourself) is going to feel differently about that statement.

Comment #219: Essie Elephant  on  03/11  at  06:34 PM

And as a literature major, I have to disavow using the degree as a shield to protect yourself from criticism because you’re ignorant of a major cultural touchstone.  Not that it’s bad to be ignorant of it.  But when you’re called out on it, it’s wise to be humble and realize perhaps there’s a hole in your knowledge.  I didn’t read “Watchmen” until last year.  That’s on me.

Again, I lol. My point was purely that one can be “well-read” and be ignorant of Watchmen. It’s a niche product, as Tyro says, and it’s simply not true that being ignorant of it makes one a philistine.

It’s truly silly and fanboyish to suggest that about any work of art.

I’ve read thousands of books, some “great” works of art, other shoddy pieces of tripe. On BOTH ends of the spectrum - not all “Literature” (with a capital L) is any good at all, and some discounted pieces are some of the best works I’ve read. Saying that someone with a lifetime of literature (little l) is not “well-read” because they haven’t heard of a particular piece of art…well, I lol.

But, hey, I’ll pile on. You haven’t read The Tale of Genji? Complete posuer. Sneer. smile

Comment #220: Essie Elephant  on  03/11  at  06:39 PM

Amanda: WHO was being dogged here?  Augh!  I said at the beginning that I didn’t get it—-because it wasn’t really designed to get that point across.  Your most recent post almost seems to concur with that sentiment.

CHET, on the other hand, decided to write reams and reams against anyone who DIDN’T get the movie, because they were idiots for failing to do so (I mean, he pretty much said so), rather than it being the job of the movie to get the point across.  It’d be different if it were any other commenter reading the situation backwards, but it’s more frustrating since it’s our host…

I…dogged, the one who is trying to say that there’s no right or wrong in the interpretation of the movie…

Comment #221: Mandos  on  03/11  at  09:25 PM

*sigh* Go all over the internet and not just the very selected population of Pandagon commenters and you’ll find all kinds of people who didn’t get it.  I’ve met them in real life too.  There is life beyond Pandagon.  Among the plebes and rubes.

Comment #222: Mandos  on  03/11  at  10:05 PM

*I* see.  You’re resentful because you believe people dismiss Watchmen as a “nerd book”, and are therefore either closed-minded lit elitists or uneducated rubes, not sure which.  As an avid consumer of certain genres of “nerd books”, I’m here to tell you that no one is looking down on the movie because they look down on the book.  I’m here to tell you that some of us became used to a very different cultural aesthetic, and the symbols and the messages you see are guaranteed not to work for people raised in some fairly sophisticated cultural milieux, where other paradigms may be dominant.

I never took college English, by the way, so I do not consider myself to be conventionally “well-read”.  The computer science program at my university didn’t require it, and I took linguistics courses to fill the very general breadth requirements.  For better or for worse, liberal arts schools are a US thing.  And I’m a nerd and do not feel “marginalized” by it…why do you?

Watchmen sold out because it is a visually beautiful spectacle (and it is—-visually beautiful even in the trailers).  Lots of movies sell well that way.  The movie is marketed at a mass audience.  I have lots of nerd friends like me and Watchmen has never come up in conversation.  Maybe it’s because I’m a Canadian?  Maybe it’s a US thing.

Comment #223: Mandos  on  03/11  at  10:14 PM

I missed Auguste:

And Mandos is going deeper than scorning source material; Mandos is saying that there is only one reading of marketing materials the meaning of which is, I presume, explicated more fully in the film itself. It’s not like other films don’t have enigmatic and ironic images in their marketing.

I said nothing of the kind.

Comment #224: Mandos  on  03/11  at  10:30 PM

Chet, I can only base this on my experience. I was a teenage comic book geek. I read Watchmen because an older comic book geek friend gave it to me. I went to college graduated, went to grad school, got a job, and made lots of friends along the way who weren’t and aren’t people who regularly read comics (seriously: plenty of people don’t). Few of them have any knowledge of Watchmen at all.

Look, don’t get me wrong—I’m happy to see Watchmen presented to the masses, but you’re completely overestimating its importance in the public pop culture consciousness.

Comment #225: Tyro  on  03/11  at  10:42 PM

I’m resentful because you blame others for your ignorance and intellectual sloth. I’m resentful because you view it as everybody else’s problem but yours that culture and meaning doesn’t always come spoon-fed for you. I’m resentful because you’ve trashed nearly an entire thread with your absurd whining that you can’t possibly be the one who’s wrong, when everybody but you caught the incredibly obvious themes in the movie.

I’m resentful because you’re a lazy idiot who obviously sees his own culture as beneath him. You’re the worst kind of snob - an ignorant one.

What?  Because I didn’t appreciate the movie in the Chet-approved way I am a “snob”. Because I happen to come from a different cultural milieux, I view “my own culture” (which culture would that be?  I’m a child of Asian immigrants and this has been a complex question all my life) as beneath me? I’m not the only person, by the way, who has noticed that you bully people whose tastes you find beneath you—-look up the thread and wonder who may be doing the “trashing”? 

Hypocrite.

Maybe it’s because you hang out with people as arrogantly sheltered and culturally incurious as yourself. Aspy types tend to stick together.

So, what, computer science majors get called “aspies” now?  And you talk about looking down on “nerds”...

No, you just said that you thought the 20 or 30 novels you’ve read in your life meant that Watchmen must not be a very well-known work if you had never heard of it.

I never said this.  I said that it’s entirely possible that it won’t be well-known to some people.  In case you hadn’t noticed, “well-known” is not an absolute concept, but relative to communities.  And I’ve read more than 20 or 30, mostly in the SF/fantasy genre, and if you weren’t such an insulting asshole, I might even agree with your opinions on lit elitism.

I mean, I ask again…is there a list that All Educated People must have read from or heard about?  Are you aware of the influence of the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest book on the fact that you submit comments to a blog?  Maybe I’ll now think that people who haven’t read at least 10 chapters out of CLR are not “well-read”...

Comment #226: Mandos  on  03/11  at  10:51 PM

Oh, wait, you think that we all read Time Magazine and care about its list.

Comment #227: Mandos  on  03/11  at  10:59 PM

*smacks forehead*  Asian means a lot of things.  In my case—-South Asian.  And if I were Chinese or Vietnamese or Malay or whatever, would that mean I should know about manga or anime, which are Japanese media?  Because I would then have an epicanthic fold, making it necessary for me to know about manga?  I’ll put this in the “aspies” file.

So now I’m supposed to know about Bollywood dramas (mostly very boring) or important ghazals or something…  Not sure were comic books fit.

But, no, there’s not a list, and I never said that there was. It’s not about checking items off a list. It’s about being engaged with culture, about being familiar with enough cultural touchstones to share a language with the people who are trying to talk to you in print and in film. A language that you, lately, mocked.

I never mocked anything.  I merely said that the world is large enough that we have different ones, and a mass market movie is intended to appeal to a common denominator, and *shock horror* that common denominator is smaller than you think.  Conveying irony is tricky—-a minefield.  Conveying it visually is trickier.  Very easy to miscue, or to miss a part of the audience, for no fault of their own.

Of course; I’ve got a copy of Introduction to Algorithims on the bottom shelf of my bookcase. Not much call for it in my organic chem classes these days, though. (Oh, did I forget to mention that I studied computer science for a while, too? I was no great shakes at that either, unfortunately.)

Bully for you.  About 9/10ths of the readers of this blog are unlikely to be familiar in any way with CLR’s encyclopedic tome.  Despite the influence it has had on their lives, which is profound.  And I can’t honestly blame them if they aren’t interested in it, even though it might be better for them if they were.

Oh, I’m sorry - is Time Magazine another work you’ve never heard of?

No, but I don’t wave it in the air as the epitome of erudition as you do *rolleyes*.  Some people know their Verdi from the Wagner and others their DC from their Marvel and a movie is a work of art on its own that needs to be constructed to convey its message, and it’s success is dependent on how many people it “got”, which I suspect is much much fewer than you estimate.

You’ve been proven wrong, Tyro, Get over it. Do I need to drop a list of just how many college English courses have Watchmen on their reading list to get you to see it?

Tyro!  He has proven you wrong!  With science!  Because college English reading lists tell us authoritatively What! Is! Important!

Comment #228: Mandos  on  03/11  at  11:25 PM

And how was Mandos ever to have expected to know what the etiquette was for gracefully exiting an excrutiatingly pointless public display of spiteful ignorance, if the directions for accomplishing the stunt weren’t printed backwards on his forehead so he could read them on a mirror? Huh? Answer me that!

Comment #229: Ken Cope  on  03/11  at  11:37 PM

Hey Chet, not to be too hypocritical, but it might be a good time to stop going all Rorschach on Mandos. It’s kinda non-ironic. As for Time Magazine putting out a must-read lit list that includes Watchmen, Time Magazine is owned by Watchmen publisher DC’s parent, Time-Warner, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Veidt Enterprises. Just sayin’, ‘zall.

Comment #230: Ken Cope  on  03/11  at  11:44 PM

I’ve got a “The End is Nigh” sign to carry around in the street

Does it look like the one I’m carrying?

Comment #231: Ken Cope  on  03/12  at  12:12 AM

This whole thread just made me grumpy. Sorry, Mandos, I did misquote/misunderstand you a bit. I’m flabbergasted by your reading of the marketing material but you didn’t claim its primacy.

Comment #232: Auguste  on  03/12  at  12:18 AM

He’s just saying that the point was very difficult to “get” if you were new to the material.

Fair enough.  But as an individual, I’ve found that bloviating about what I realy don’t get is a bad idea. In fact, if you bullshit to get past a fact, and you get confronted by the better-informed, you’d be wise to listen.

Comment #233: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/12  at  01:47 AM

Go all over the internet and not just the very selected population of Pandagon commenters and you’ll find all kinds of people who didn’t get it.  I’ve met them in real life too.  There is life beyond Pandagon.  Among the plebes and rubes.

I reject out of hand the idea that uneducated asswipes should be role models. You get a choice: hide behind the lit degree or claim an uber-populist standpoint that denies the very existence of quality.

Lit major, top of her class, knew “Watchmen” was a classic.  You don’t read every classic, of course.  But this should import upon you the importance of this classic.

Comment #234: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/12  at  01:52 AM

Chet is a ridiculous troll.  He’s only tolerated here because he trolls on the side of atheism and art-snobbery, and other positions that Pandagon writers assume.  He draws a line on the sand “Anyone who didn’t get Watchmen is stupid!” and bullies the shit out of anyone who disagrees.  Calling people stupid, theorizing on how many books they’ve read, accusing people of autism?  Are you serious?

Amanda -

I don’t think something like “The Watchmen” is going to be able to translate to audiences who aren’t already primed for a bluntly post-modernist assault on comic book superhero traditions.  The movie is being marketed as a straightforward superhero movie with “dark” overtones, but that doesn’t mean a whole lot to potential audiences.

This is a quotation from your post.  You are directly questioning whether the movie will translate to people like Mandos and Tyro.  Mandos (or Tyro, I’ve lost track) responds that for him, it really didn’t.  Then Chet calls him a moron.  You appear to be implicitly agreeing with Chet.  So, is it a reasonable reaction to not get parts of the movie, or isn’t it?  Should I discuss my difficulty with understanding the themes as a Watchmen virgin on this thread, or shouldn’t I?  Why bring it up you didn’t want people to “bloviate about what [they] really don’t get”? 

It seems like what y’all want Mandos/Tyro/et al to say is “I didn’t get it, but then I castigated myself for being an uneducated movie-goer and immediately read Watchmen and a couple texts on movie criticism and feel bad about my error.”  But how does that explore the question posed in your post?  If you were only interested in discussing the movie from the point of view of people who are familiar with Watchmen, then why even bring up this issue in your post at all?

Comment #235: Denise  on  03/12  at  02:00 AM

For the record, I didn’t “get” the movie either.  I may well be a moron.  I do intend to read Watchmen and see the movie again, because I think I will enjoy it more as an educated viewer.

Comment #236: Denise  on  03/12  at  02:03 AM

Ken: The Prime Directive of the Intertubes is that the first person to leave a flamewar is subject either to the Klingon shunning ritual or having his/her posts used to train a bot to be unleashed on comp.ai.

Comment #237: Mandos  on  03/12  at  04:15 AM

Denise, it was me: although Tyro helped wink

I reject out of hand the idea that uneducated asswipes should be role models. You get a choice: hide behind the lit degree or claim an uber-populist standpoint that denies the very existence of quality.

I was being sarcastic and neither a lit elitist nor an uberpopulist.  Are you confusing me with someone else?  I know lots of people who have various forms of education.  Some of them may know of the Watchmen and some of them may not.  Just as some of them may know of Saint-Saëns opera “Samson and Delilah” and some of them may not.

Lit major, top of her class, knew “Watchmen” was a classic.  You don’t read every classic, of course.  But this should import upon you the importance of this classic.

I’m *not* a lit major, but I have no doubt, now that I have been amply amply lectured at, that Watchmen is a classic.  There!  I said it!  Watchmen is a classic.  It doesn’t change the fact that the movie didn’t convey the intended message of the book to a large number of people (look around the intertubes) many of whom I’m certain are quite cultured and educated thank-you-very-much. 

Is that the fault of the movie, or of the people?  I maintain the former.  Some people maintain the latter.  How one maintains the latter without requiring a specific reading list for people wanting to watch $10 movies at the local cinema, I know not.

Comment #238: Mandos  on  03/12  at  04:22 AM

Auguste:

This whole thread just made me grumpy. Sorry, Mandos, I did misquote/misunderstand you a bit. I’m flabbergasted by your reading of the marketing material but you didn’t claim its primacy.

I saw the trailer several times before other movies, and it gave off the impression of Hellboy II.  I’m not culturally primed to think of a smiley in an ironic postmodern manner.  I’m primed to think of it as a facial expression rendered iconically.  We may be a minority, but I really don’t think we’re stupid, us smilitarians.  A smiley with blood: dead good guys.

But seriously, this discussion, flamey as it was, raised an interesting issue.  Because I think the issue that underlies all of this is the technique of the Unreliable Narrator.  It’s tricky to do, and I don’t think the movie quite pulled it off, for those Watchmen-virginal like me and Denise.  That is the real “nut” of my criticism.  It is, I submit, implied by some of the criticism raised by Amanda—-as Denise pointed out.

Comment #239: Mandos  on  03/12  at  04:29 AM

I’m not culturally primed to think of a smiley in an ironic postmodern manner.

Whereas I am primed to think of Walmart. At least in part because of the ubiquitous ads and the fact that I own an anti-Walmart documentary.

Just like a lot of liberals on Pandagon have admitted to being primed to view anything with “Life” on it as potentially anti-choice, despite the myriad of meanings for that word. Culturally icons are fluid, and we are primed to interpret the world in a narrative that fits with our daily thoughts and actions. Gestalt theory comes to mind.

I find it amusing when avowed atheists hold slavish, almost religious devotion to a higher authority. So, as an end result, we actually have, on a feminist blog, a poster - an atheist poster - insisting on the transcendent validity of a Times magazine “Best Books EVAH” list that was probably composed by a committee of largely privileged, white, American males. And no one sees the irony in this, in a blog that would usually deconstruct the list and validly clamor to know why this feminist author was excluded, why that person of color author was ignored, why the other non-American work was left out. We would, could, should have genuine discussions about the relative importance of, say Harry Potter, versus the Wealth of Nations, but when a sacred cow comes along - in this case, Watchmen, all argument must be stopped and we are told to accept with humility that we all need to go out and read this book. Because it is Just That Important.

Literary snobbery I can cope with - Jane Eyre or Watchmen, it makes no difference to me what your sacred cow is, we all have one. But what I do NOT get is the irrational anger and hatred that one receives when one points out that, “No, I just genuinely haven’t heard of this book.” The howls of rage are incomprehensible. It’s not POSSIBLE that well-read, intelligent people haven’t heard of Watchmen, no. They must be Snobs. They must be Aspies. They must be Deliberately Ignorant. They must be Culturally Autistic. They must be Slagging The Source Material. They must Hate Everything We Hold Dear!

You see this with Chet’s odd insistence that, yes, Essie’s lit school DID teach Watchmen, she just bullshitted her way through without reading the book. Huh? You see, it can’t be possible that their book is not universally recognized The Best Book Ever (as if any book is!) because it IS The Best Book Ever, so if I haven’t read it, I must be doing it on purpose. I must be doing it to HURT them.

A week or two ago, my jaw dropped when I saw Amanda claim, with a straight face, that people who buy Décor She Deems Ugly are not doing it because they have different tastes. No, they are buying Décor She Deems Ugly because they want to make the world ugly, to piss her off. Not her, personally, but people of her clique - People Who Have Good Taste. They are listening, she claims, to Britney Spears and not Devo because, deep down inside, they are afraid of being called “cool” and “hip” and “edgy”, so they buy mediocre things and pretend to like mediocre things because they are cowardly. But she is not a coward - she is willing to suffer and buy the Platonic Ideal of Good Music, and take the hits as they come from the unwashed masses.

This idea, that this is One Good, and that nothing is fluid - there is no art that is good for me, only art that is Good For Everyone, is quite startling to me and reminds me in no small part of the Christians I grew up with. It reminds me of their fanatical insistence that, yes, atheists realize God exists and they know they are going to hell, they are just being atheists to be stubborn. It’s that same attitude. I know, deep in my heart, that Watchmen is good (because it IS, dammit), so if I haven’t read it at this point in my life, I’m stubborn. I’m scornful. I’m. Not. Humble.

(I’m not humble, Amanda. Neither are you. I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing. But it IS odd to find you demanding it from others.)

And the almost paranoiac idea that people are buying décor that you, personally, feel is ugly in a concentrated attempt to make the world a shitty place…well, let’s just say those are the days that I wonder if certain people might not benefit from a little more fresh air.

Just my humble opinion.

Comment #240: Essie Elephant  on  03/12  at  10:57 AM

This isn’t about worshipping an an altar of universal good taste, nor is it about only celebrating the Dead White Male canon at the expense of everything else.

It still comes back to that ill-worded first comment about having a Lit Degree, which seemed to imply that you’re coming from a place of some kind of authority.  Even though it wasn’t meant as a slam against comics as a medium, it displayed a lack of curiosity and dismissiveness about the source material, which was a position I didn’t understand, especially coming from a fellow humanities specialist.

If you truly thought of every book or work of art on a level plane, a completely non-hierarchical chain of nodes, and there was NO objective way to tell the difference between The Da Vinci Code and whatever Book X you might want to insert as your personal favorite (because taste is completely “subjective”), it seems that the appropriate reaction to first hearing about Watchmen would be “Huh.  A book that many people have heard of, but I haven’t.  Interesting!” 

Instead, you cited a degree as a defense against being a philistine.  You clarified things after that, but I think everyone’s still hung up on that statement.

Once you bring academic degrees and such into the conversation, I think it becomes difficult to argue that there’s no difference between someone who’s only read Chicken Soup for the Soul and someone who’s spent 20 years in the trenches of academia.  I mean, would you think it was fair if you were competing for a teaching position and the person who got the job had literally only read Chicken Soup for the Soul and Family Circus?  I don’t think so.

There’s a lot of flexibility in what we consider to be canonical, but there are also certain standards that can objectively show a (comic) book’s worth.  It’s not the same thing as a Fundamentalist’s view of God—it’s more like showing that a BMW is finely engineered piece of machinery.  You may not like BMW’s, but it’d be just plain contrariness to deny the quality of how it was put together.

Comment #241: Dr. Locrian  on  03/12  at  12:03 PM

Dr. Locrian, the fact is that you misunderstood my comment about having a literature degree - that I was saying that it was ridiculous to equate “Hasn’t Heard About Watchmen” with “Hasn’t Read More Than 20 Books In A Lifetime”.

That you read “lit degree” and decided I was an Ivory Tower fanatic and stopped reading at that point is not my fault.

You’ve stated, multiple times now, that you misunderstood me and that these things happen online, but you continue to wring your hands over the fact that, well, you misunderstood my initial post. This seems to bother you strongly, and you feel I should have phrased my post differently, but I don’t share your opinion. I’m sorry that you can’t hear “lit degree” without immediately making unfair assumptions about the author and the point of the post.

Do you have anything to say about my actual point, or do you want to continue to flog the dead horse that my initial post triggered a misunderstanding for you?

it seems that the appropriate reaction to first hearing about Watchmen would be “Huh.  A book that many people have heard of, but I haven’t.  Interesting!”

And that WAS my first reaction, but I don’t post every thought that enters my head. I was responding to a specific point, i.e., that only a philistine would be unaware of Watchmen.

Geez.

Comment #242: Essie Elephant  on  03/12  at  02:13 PM

Also, Dr. Locrian, you’ve conveniently missed that Tyro and Mandos (who did not mention Lit degrees) are getting the same phenomena of rage against the uninitiated that I described, so this really can’t all boil down to, “Well, you sounded like a college brag-off.”

Comment #243: Essie Elephant  on  03/12  at  02:25 PM

A week or two ago, my jaw dropped when I saw Amanda claim, with a straight face, that people who buy Décor She Deems Ugly are not doing it because they have different tastes. No, they are buying Décor She Deems Ugly because they want to make the world ugly, to piss her off. Not her, personally, but people of her clique - People Who Have Good Taste.

This irked me as well, but I think the situation with Watchmen is different.  With the Snuggie, etc., I think it’s sensible to assume that most people have poor taste because they haven’t been exposed to anything better.  This piece by Paul Krugman about the improvement of food in London explains it quite well.  With Watchmen, however, we have a clear indicator that the movie is part of a network of interrelated ideas, namely that it was based on other material.  So when someone goes to see it and just shrugs and says “I don’t get it.  I thought I was going to get Hellboy II.  That’s what the marketing suggested.”, that to me is a greater sin.

It’s possible that, after reading the Graphic Novel, that Mandos’s opinion of the movie will be affirmed because it didn’t convey its ideas well, but it’s also possible that Mandos’s view of the movie will improve, and he simply can’t say one way or the other right now, which is what he seems to be doing, which then set off Amanda’s Babbitry Alarms(tm).  Taylor Hicks better not be coming around if he knows what’s good for him!

Incidentally, it seems like some moviegoers are affirming Amanda’s manichean view of the general public quite vividly.  The best was this, from the link to popten:

In a way I don’t even think it was the movie’s fault. I think the audience felt slighted more than they hated the movie. A few times I heard whispers, ‘This is nothing like the preview” and then, “yeah, the preview looked sick!”.

But if you read further, you see that the reaction is way stronger than you’d normally get when people realize that a marketing campaign lied to them.  I think it’s safe to say that anyone above the age of 10 would greet that realization with a shrug—it’s just what marketing does.  Here, you get people yelling at the screen and stomping off.  It’s not just that they were lied to, it’s that what they were confronted with was something they’d never watch of their own volition, and instead of taking it in and seeing where it goes, they don’t want anything to do with it.

Comment #244: NY Expat  on  03/12  at  03:11 PM

Please don’t mistake commenting multiple times for a “phenomena of rage.”  Addressing points multiple times is also characteristic of Intertubez Talkin’.  I just like discussing this stuff, so please don’t assume that I’m pounding the keys with rage. wink

You say that I misunderstood your post—but I already acknowledged that you didn’t mean to come across as a snob by mentioning your degree.  Yes, yes, there are many shades of “well read” between having a lit degree and having only read 20 books in a lifetime, and no one should call you an idiot for not having heard of Watchmen.  I agree.  That’s not what I was talking about.

I don’t think that Chet and Amanda are so persistent in their points because they NEED you to worship at the altar of their good taste.  I think it’s more about the inherent conflict with claiming a level of expertise in something (which saying that you have degree does, and that’s not snobbery, it’s the equivalent of saying that you know how to build chairs or do surgery) and at the same time trying to say that there’s no reasonable expectation that an expert in culture should have heard of something that’s an influential work. 

And again, I think you’re conflating the passion on display here with personal attacks on yours and Mandos and Tyro’s worth as human beings.  I don’t think that’s the case.

Comment #245: Dr. Locrian  on  03/12  at  03:13 PM

Two snippets from Snyder in this article related to Snyder’s understanding of the material:

Director Snyder, also speaking from LA, says, “It’s funny, you endeavor to make this kind of super-dark intellectual piece, and then there’s a good chance people just think, Yeah, that’s violent and sexy! But if you plug into the movie all the way, it can do a number on you. It’s not like ‘Iron Man,’ where my son and I walked out of the theater and said, ‘Robert Downey Jr. is awesome’ - and that was all. This movie’s not a passive experience. (emphasis added)

But later on:

“There are big philosophical ideas in this, no two ways about it,” says Snyder. “But at the same time, it’s nice to let yourself off the hook a little with the fan-fetishy aspect of it. Just when it feels like we’re getting too intellectual for our own good, you see a fan dressed up like Rorschach, and you feel more relaxed.”

I honestly don’t know if it matters much in the end, but there’s something that fascinates me in trying to figure out what Snyder sees in the material.

Comment #246: NY Expat  on  03/12  at  03:22 PM

That you interpreted it as Hellboy II is a function of your inability to perceive accurately, not a failure of marketing.

An inability to perceive accuratly *is* a failure of marketing. It says the marketers fundamentally misunderstood the target audience of the message they were sending, so that they used the wrong cues.

Comment #247: BlackBloc  on  03/12  at  04:21 PM

Chet: See, I think from your description I saw way more in Hellboy II than you did, because I probably came at that story primed differently.  I came at it as someone who watched Del Toro’s Pan’s Labyrinth first, and as a Tolkien geek, and as a fan of certain non-comic subgenres of SF and fantasy whose themes I felt the movie fit well inside.  So I wouldn’t have described the movie in the terms you do at all.  I saw it in some ways carrying forward the themes of the director’s Pan’s Labyrinth into a different genre.

However, I don’t fault you for seeing it the way you did, because evidently you were looking at it from the structure of comic books. 

But when I saw the trailer of Watchmen, I took it as being about a misunderstood series of superheros being persecuted by a world that rejected them—-and is starting to kill them off.  That was the parallel with Hellboy II that I saw (“Why should I save a world that I have no stake in?...”).  You can repeat this until you’re blue in the face like Dr. Manhattan that my reading is unsupportable, but it’s only unsupportable to someone who has read an absorbed Watchmen.

And you can repeat Time “Powerline-is-blog-of-year” Magazine’s assertion of it’s awesomeness also until you’re blue in the face, but graphic novels like Watchmen are still really only in the consciousness of a segment of the otherwise educated population.  There is no absolute list of “well-readedness” as though we were Comic Book Guy’s incarnation as a medieval Scholastic lecturer… None.  That’s no fault of the Watchmen or those who read it.  I am happy to consider someone who hasn’t read any Dickens to be “well-read” if they’ve made an effort to imbibe something else; they’ll miss things, but so will I.

Comment #248: Mandos  on  03/12  at  04:24 PM

I was going to comment, but Mandos beat me to it, and he did it in a much shorter word count than I surely would have. So: QFFT. smile

Comment #249: Essie Elephant  on  03/12  at  04:41 PM

The problem is that you had never heard of it

I’m taking a straw poll of my friends. Not the friends I went to college with and exchange tips about comics with—the friends whom I’ve met as adults who don’t work in my field. So far, none of them had heard of Watchmen or taken much of an interest in comics.

It doesn’t mean they’re not well-read. It means that there’s an area of pop culture in which they have no interest or experience.

What you’re missing, Chet, is that with a big budget R rated movie, the audience the film is intended for is the mainstream audience of movie-going adults. You can still make an intelligent movie that appeals to that audience, but you can’t condemn the audience for demanding the the audience conform to a cultural niche (or fantasize that your niche interests and experience have universal, mainstream cultural significance).

I’m not going to speculate as to why you’re so blinded, Chet, but the truth is that you ascribe universal/national importance to your own cultural milleu, and you’re simply wrong about your perception.

Comment #250: Tyro  on  03/12  at  05:15 PM

I stand corrected that no one has called anyone an idiot for not having heard of Watchmen—that’s being more abrasive than is necessary to make the point.  For the record, I don’t agree with this approach, but I understand where it comes from wink

Personally, I find it more surprising that someone who’s read Y: The Last Man had never heard of Watchmen (at this point I can’t remember who said this) than I am surprised that a Lit Major had never heard of it.  Academia has for a long time had a blind spot when it comes to comics.

But to read and appreciate Brian K. Vaughn’s work and not know who Alan Moore is . . . is kind of like liking Kanye West but at the same time have no idea who Grandmaster Flash is.  Keep in mind I said “surprising”, not “idiotic.”

Comment #251: Dr. Locrian  on  03/12  at  05:36 PM

Chet, why don’t you take your huge, bloated, condescending attitude and fuck yourself in the ass with it?

I mean, really.  We all GET IT.  We all know exactly what you think of anyone who hadn’t heard of Watchmen.  They’re not well-read, because all well-read persons have heard of Watchmen.  Any person who hasn’t heard of Watchmen but says s/he is well-read is expressing great fear and loathing of the genre of comics or nerds in general and would like nothing better than to class comic books as something below garbage and vomit.  Because all well-read persons, especially people with degrees in Literature, are absolutists who think the only good book is a book they know a lot about.  There are no exceptions. 

We all know exactly what you think of anyone who didn’t understand the Watchmen film or who didn’t predict perfectly what they would be seeing in the film when they saw the Watchmen movie trailer.  They’re intellectually stunted, filmographically autistic idiots who are congenitally incapable of understanding movies at all.  There are no exceptions.

Not one of your friends would admit to you they didn’t “get” Watchmen?  If talking with you is anything like reading your comments here, I can guess why.

Comment #252: oldfeminist  on  03/12  at  10:11 PM

Note: The term you’re looking for to replace “satire” is Deconstruction.

Comment #253: Doug S.  on  03/13  at  12:42 AM

Chet, I had never heard of Watchmen before this *discussion* but I thought it sounded really cool and I was looking forward to reading it (the movie sounds too violent to see on the big screen for me) but you are RUINING IT.

Seriously, apologizing for the “aspy” shit and then CONTINUING TO DO IT it is fucked up. Frankly, if assholes like *you* like this story I’m tempted to cut my nose off despite my face and *never read it* just to spite you. (You know what, I’ll probably survive being so teeerribly uncultured. Somehow. 9.9) And the comparisons to being deaf are pretty tasteless as well. (My favorite has to be the Asian comment though—really? Asians all should be familiar with manga? *Reaally?*)

Frankly, I’m pretty disappointed that Amanda has been silently letting all this racist and ableist bullshit continue. It certainly does NOT create a safe space for civil feminist discussion, which I had *thought* was a higher priority than letting Chet get his fanboy rocks off.

Comment #254: Bagelsan  on  03/13  at  01:38 AM

I didn’t know fanbois were permitted to play with rocks.
Lighten the FCC up, people! Laugh at a cartoon! Here: http://twitpic.com/21g58

Comment #255: Ken Cope  on  03/13  at  01:58 AM

Lighten the FCC up, people! Laugh at another cartoon!

Comment #256: Ken Cope  on  03/13  at  02:03 AM

Re: Dickens.  The real problem with my parallel with Dickens is that Dickens is, well, old.  It’s had time to penetrate the common language of the English world, for better or for worse.  We have Broadway musicals based on multiple Dickens novels, for years.  Dissemination is immense.  Allusions are frequent in newspapers—-reference to Oliver Twist characters and so on—-and have been for a long time (but allusions to “Watchmen” are not). 

“Watchmen”, on the other hand, has only made its first major transition to other media (in the form of a movie).  It is young.  Despite Chet, I am still interested in reading it to see its real message as intended by the original author.  So in time it may grow up indeed to be something whose imagery you cannot escape.  But otherwise, it is very easy not to have encountered.  Long live.

Comment #257: Mandos  on  03/13  at  02:23 AM

Frankly, I’m pretty disappointed that Amanda has been silently letting all this racist and ableist bullshit continue. It certainly does NOT create a safe space for civil feminist discussion, which I had *thought* was a higher priority than letting Chet get his fanboy rocks off.

It is a old rule of the internet that some are more equal than others…  For myself at least, I take it in stride smile

Comment #258: Mandos  on  03/13  at  02:24 AM

I had also seen Pan’s Labyrinth as well, and additionally the first Hellboy. Believe me I’m no stranger to Del Toro’s work, and I might have described Hellboy II in a different way if I had more than 5000 characters to work with.

This is a complete and transparent copout, and exposes you (as though it needed doing) as an intellectually bankrupt poseur who knows much less than he claims to know.  You don’t need 5K characters to describe the basic themes of Hellboy II for the purposes of this discussion.  The words “alienation of the superman from man” might do.  As in Pan’s Labyrinth: is the girl of our world or of theirs?  Whose world has the right to assert itself?  What stake does that world have in ours, in the lives in ours?

It did not take me 5K words to elucidate the visual and aural language from Hellboy II as a movie through which one might then be primed to perceive the Watchmen trailer.

Thereafter: we can see how the Watchmen movie may not be designed for all culturally literate individuals, because cultural literacy is a slippery thing.  And that this is not the fault of the stupid rube viewer, nor is it a sign of the multiply-directed insult “cultural autism.”  The ironic distance that the movie was supposed to have: it didn’t, or it didn’t insofar as it might have had.  Maybe the book does.  *shrug*

Comment #259: Mandos  on  03/13  at  02:35 AM

Not to interrupt the flamewar, but I thought this part of Amanda’s post was odd: Watchmen “is not funny in any way, shape, or form.” I haven’t seen the movie but if they used any of the book, we must just have different ideas about humor. I mean really, none of this is funny?

- Rorschach lamenting that he “was offered Swedish Love and French love, but not American love.” Rorschach wondering why all the other heroes have “personality disorders.” Half the guys they make fun of on Sadly, No! are just stealing that guy’s lines.
- Dr. Manhattan freaking out the TV producer by changing his skin tone to match the lighting.
- Nite Owl trying to build a super-strength gadget which immediately breaks his arm.
- “Tijuana Bibles” about real people.
- The awful right-wing crank newspaper that’s wrong about everything… except their weird hobbyhorse of a conspiracy theory linking all kinds of random things, which is accidentally totally true.
- A Hollywood actor with the initials R.R. runs for president as the new liberal hope.
- “I Will Give You Bodies Beyond Your Wildest Dreams.”

Moore is a morbid smart-ass who’s sometimes overly clever, but I don’t think he’s ever written anything that was entirely without goofy jokes.

Comment #260: Hob  on  03/13  at  12:16 PM

A lot of comments, some making points which i find interesting as a newcomer to the site.

The Chet flamethrower is getting on my wick a touch - no disrespect meant, mate, but when you let frustration goad you into saying

“If they speak English natively - no, it’s not possible. By definition, someone who is “well-read” will have heard of Watchmen, and a large number of other works that it’s not necessary to specify or enumerate. “

that really is absolute, utter, jumbo-sized futtocks. And I speak as someone who first skimmed Watchmen almost 20 years ago, read it properly a few years later, and reread it avidly in my late teens.  Even if you were correct, I’m not sure that this justifies your aggresive tone against Mandos and others. Deciding that certain people have inferior powers of perception or interpretation, just because of one instance where they don’t “get” something you do, is a bit shoddy IMHO.

And no, I don’t want to get into a tedious tit-for-tat about how well or poorly read I am, in literature, science or whatever. Antler-tangling of that sort just doesn’t do it for me I’m afraid.

Comment #261: passingbrit  on  03/15  at  12:23 AM

As someone who hasn’t seen the film yet, I’m feelingly increasingly dejected about it, and reluctant to see it, as it seems to have convinced people that Moore has lots of beliefs and sympathies that he doesn’t (this comes across better in audio interviews, when it’s more obvious to what extent he’s taking the piss, and what his political leanings are).

It seemed so clear around the third time I read it, as a teenager, that one wasn’t meant to *cheer* for Rorschach or the Comedian; that they were set up to be reprehensible (although in Rorschach’s case to elicit some empathy) precisely to point the finger at Manhattan and Veidt who were supposed to be so much better. Now if that hasn’t made it into the film, *without* prior knowledge of the source being needed, then it’s really failed in its heart even if it succeeds on the surface.

And as regards the sexism problems in the source: well, I’m very wary of commenting beyond my competence here, but I think enough unflattering light is cast on the male characters’ actions (not just the attempted rape, but little details like Manhattan’s callousness towards Janey Slater) to give Moore *some* credit in his intentions if not his execution. (I see that here http://punkassblog.com/2009/03/07/who-watches-the-watchmen/ someone thinks Moore intended Rorschach as a Gary-Sue or similar. All I can say is that I’ve never got that reading at all myself. But perhaps this is where vague prior knowledge of the author helps, q.v. the character’s Truman-worship.)

Comment #262: passingbrit  on  03/15  at  12:40 AM

Last comment for now: over on that post of Antigone’s, some discussion in the comments of the Comedian’s (attempted?) rape of Sally Jupiter. It’s not really my place to speculate over whether this is perpetuation of a negative trope in the genre or not. All I’ll say is that in the comic, the flashback where Sally stands up to Blake and tells him to get away from her (ahem) daughter does a lot for me to not show her as a mere victim, an excuse for other male characters to get outraged. It gives the lie, in my view at least, to the somewhat nauseating “aww but really she loved him” tone I’ve picked up in some defences of both comic and film.

Comment #263: passingbrit  on  03/15  at  12:48 AM
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