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Next entry: The Southern Strategy lives on Previous entry: The Mormon-Christian right alliance

Not all patriarchal control freaks are men

I haven’t written about MRAs (men’s rights activists) in awhile, because what is there to say about a group of men organized around the principle that women shouldn’t have the right to say no?  Because that’s basically what pisses them off: women who think they get to say no to sex, to staying in abusive marriages, to having their time occupied by any man who demands it, to having a baby when they don’t want.  And they hide behind patriarchal sentimentality to justify their strong desire to control women.  Not much else to say, because going at it with them is a lesson in hearing undeserved self-pity from those who were dumped for reasons obvious to everyone but them, and who have endless amounts of time and energy to dedicate to throwing their own pity parade. 

I bring it up, because while most people who play this game are men, some women do it, too.  And by “it”, I mean specifically the game MRAs play and teach each other through their organized movement, which is to cling to control over your ex-wife as long as possible by exploiting the court system.  Just because she has a right to leave you doesn’t mean you’re going to let her go without punishing her over and over again!  And Lindsay linked to an article from one of them.  Beverly Willett is protesting New York adopting no-fault divorce because if there had been no-fault when her husband broke it off with her, she would have had fewer options to punish him for rejecting her, and dragging out the pain for years. 

It’s interesting to consider how Willett makes exactly the same arguments about marriage that MRAs make, without the whining about imaginary “reverse sexism”, but the audience for it sees through her a lot more quickly than audiences tend to see through MRAs.  When a woman hides behind patriarchal nonsense about the sacredness of marriage, she doesn’t bring any male authority to bear to the situation and just sounds like an abusive control freak.  I humbly submit that anyone who uses the courts to punish a spouse for years after leaving them is an abusive control freak, regardless of gender.  Indeed, I’d say that’s a tautology to say so.  What I think is interesting is how these abusive control freaks make appeals to “family values” to justify their own damage.

Willett’s husband left her.  He was with someone else.  It was abundantly clear that he wasn’t coming back.  For all intents and purposes, they weren’t married, except in name.  But Willett carries on in her justifications of what she did as if she had a chance to change the facts on the ground.  Example:

One night when I was up reluctantly working on the divorce papers, my eldest daughter appeared by my side. “I don’t want you to get a divorce,” she said. I didn’t either. Yet until this moment, it hadn’t occurred to me that I had the power to stop this from happening. I realized perhaps the break-up of my marriage wasn’t inevitable and that by standing up, maybe I could also help others.

The invoking of the children is a classic MRA ploy, and despicable. It’s using your own children as cover for your own inability to act like an adult when a relationship cracks up.  But the next part about how the break-up wasn’t inevitable?  This is a note she plays over and over in the piece, and it never once makes sense.  What did she think would happen if she found a way to keep her husband from actually divorcing her?  That he would break up with his girlfriend, move back home, get into bed and make sweet love to his legal wife?  Does she think that if the state just forced people to stay legally married, especially in this day and age, that would mean love would flourish?  Or is she being disingenuous about the real reason she dragged this fight out for five years and thousands of dollars—-to punish her husband for leaving her and to throw a multi-year pity party for herself?  My guess is the last one.  She lets the truth slip out a little in all the self-martyring language about “saving” a marriage where one person unilaterally would not participate in spirit even if forced to have this single legal binding.

“Divorce is about money,” Saul said. No one cared about right and wrong.

Right and wrong.  Her husband cheated and left; she felt this was wrong.  But there are no legal punishments for breaking a person’s heart. So, she decided that if the criminal system wouldn’t punish her husband, she’d punish him.  Through 5 years of divorce hell and many judges trying to tell her to grow the fuck up.  Her stated desire to “save” her marriage failed, of course.  Her mostly unspoken but far more real desire to exact punishment worked like a charm.  Except, of course, she did it to herself as much as to her husband. 

All of this is why I rolled my eyes when I read this part:

When I refused a quickie divorce on his terms, he served me with divorce papers filled with baseless complaints.

“The whole thing is a pack of lies,” I said to my attorney, sobbing. “He’s the one committing adultery.”

“Then deny it, and sue him for divorce,” Saul said.

“But I don’t want a divorce,” I cried. “I love my husband.”

She loved him so much she was willing to spend the next five years of her life trying to exact punishment.  That’s not love.  That’s hate. 

Twenty years wasn’t something I wanted to chuck overnight. Made of strong Southern female stock, I grew up believing the words “until death do us part” were non-negotiable. Family was paramount, and divorce virtually unheard of. “I don’t think there’s anything in life that can’t be forgiven,” my aunt said when I asked for her advice. To me, that pretty much covered the whole territory.

There’s nothing strong about being a clingy, vindictive control freak.  That is cowardly and weak.  I want to drive this home, because like this woman thinks of her weak, childish behavior as evidence of some strength, so do MRAs tend to pride themselves on being Big Men, even as they act like toddlers throwing tantrums because other human beings don’t submit completely to them.  All of these people are 100% wrong in their self-assessment. Strong people don’t need to exert control over others to feel strong.  Strong people don’t waste their lives on revenge.  Strong people have the strength to get up and move on.  Strong people don’t throw good money after bad. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:21 PM • (149) Comments

You have reminded me of the Pretenders cover of “Thin line between love and hate.”

I don’t understand why anyone would want to be with someone who does not want to be with them.  But, I think rain is wet, so what do I know?

Comment #1: James  on  09/01  at  07:12 PM

When I was younger (19) I punished someone for breaking up w/me when I didn’t want them too. It took a while (maybe a semester IIRC) for me to realize what a goddamnn asshole I was. I’m lucky in that I was able to apologize before we both moved on and out of each others lives. This woman took it out on her ex for 5 years? I can’t imagine it.

Comment #2: Mark  on  09/01  at  07:20 PM

When my ex left me for the husband of another couple of friends, I went through all the butthurt and nonsense of MRA feelinghood: a shitstorm of “How dare she?” and “She owes me!” and all the rest (which wasn’t helped by the fact that she kept the reason for the breakup a secret to protect her boyfriend’s marriage and allow him to leave his wife at his own pace, which makes them a perfect couple in so many ways.)  Then I realized that the marriage wasn’t perfect, I can’t make her fall in love with me again, and it’s best to get this over with quickly for the sake of everyone involved (including the children.)  I got a bit of revenge here and there by making her pay for the divorce (I still didn’t want it, she did, so she should be the one to buy it, which she did) and other, far more petty, victories such as the ability to not care when she told me how hard it is for her.

Fast forward a few years and she’s doing fine, I’m doing okay, and they’re getting along just fine.

Which is the worst thing in the world for the other aggrieved spouse.  She’s still in litigation hell, talks to her ex through a lawyer, can’t decide anything without a written agreement, has made it her hobby to be aggrieved, and is pretty much butthurt about her ex who cheated on her constantly throughout their relationship, left her for another woman, lets that other woman help raise her children, even lets that woman attend school functions, and pretty much wants my ex wife to die along with her ex husband just so some sort of pride can be restored and there won’t be any living evidence that life wasn’t a perfect little cosmos of harmonious beings dancing in a well-choreographed ballet of appropriate interaction. 

I can’t claim to have been entirely mature in my dealings and feelings with and about my ex, but I’m glad I didn’t follow the advice of friends and others and just let her “walk all over me” since there wasn’t much worth fighting for other than a continued relationship with my sons.  And since she’s not a bitter lunatic, this wasn’t a problem and never will be.

If divorce was harder, we wouldn’t be any better off.  “Strengthening marriage” wouldn’t have helped us do anything other than be miserable (she) or oblivious (me) longer.  Maybe that stability is important, but it’s certainly not worth it.  Divorce strengthened our relationship, no matter how much I miss her.

Comment #3: 3letterjon  on  09/01  at  07:31 PM

Oh man, that was hard to read.  I was on the receiving end of that shit once, and it lasted for years too.  I’ve never been able to understand it.  If someone wants to leave me, whether they love someone else or not, why on earth would I want them to stay?  It always felt to me like, you can’t really know what love is if you want that.

But i agree, it’s not about love.  It’s about hate and revenge.

Comment #4: JennyLI  on  09/01  at  07:48 PM

When I read Willett’s piece I reminded of the “OMG, I should get to dictate whether or not you get an abortion!” argument that one so often hears from MRAs.

Also, I can only imagine the damage inflicted in their children—what kind of model for a relationship is it when you watch one parent punish the other for 5 years?

Comment #5: FashionablyEvil  on  09/01  at  07:55 PM

I have to say too, I’m really amazed she wrote that article.  Maybe she is remarried already, or, she’s so bitter she will never be with another man, but if neither of those two things are true, she made a big mistake.  I’ll tell you if a guy wrote that article, I’d run like hell as soon as I found out about it.

He didn’t let her go, he ain’t letting you go either.  Nobody needs that world of trouble.  A person of either gender would have to be bug-shagging nuts to get involved with someone like that.

Comment #6: JennyLI  on  09/01  at  07:56 PM

Twenty years wasn’t something I wanted to chuck overnight. Made of strong Southern female stock, I grew up believing the words “until death do us part” were non-negotiable. Family was paramount, and divorce virtually unheard of. “I don’t think there’s anything in life that can’t be forgiven,” my aunt said when I asked for her advice. To me, that pretty much covered the whole territory.

Arrrrrrrgh, my brain hurts so bad. Does this woman not live in North America in the 21st century? Divorce happens in the South, too. It happens plenty. I can tell she has negative self-awareness—- by that “anything in life that can’t be forgiven” I assume she means she “forgives” her husband for dumping her, but really she’s the one who’s out of line—- but does she also live under a rock? What she believes about the words “death do us part” is irrelevant. You can’t force someone to stay in love with you.

Comment #7: Alyson Miers  on  09/01  at  07:58 PM

Maybe I’m being dense and not understanding what “men’s rights” means, but how is she advocating for it?  I read her article, and as disgusting as her bitterness is, it really doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the “sad dads” groups that put their bedcloth posters on freeway overpasses.

Comment #8: Lefty  on  09/01  at  08:02 PM

I think she’s off, but I do think it was possible that this came from a place other than hate.  It *is* hard when you’re married to someone who you love and who you’ve had a lot of good times with, and who *doesn’t want* to join you in fixing what is wrong.  A lot of counselors will tell you that the marriages that are likely to survive that sort of disruption are the sorts where the partner who wants to stay is positive about the marriage continuing.  And acts as if it will continue.

I think sometimes it is very easy to get caught up in the past.  What stopped me personally from doing it was just me telling myself that I didn’t get to have *that* the mystical past again, that if he did stay, it would be something very different for a long time, and that if he stayed for me and not him—it would all come crumbling down, and worse.

I think sometimes it can be very hard to let go of a past that was very real and very positive.  It sort of fucks with your understanding of reality.  And I don’t think a little foot-dragging in a divorce is the worst thing ever—it can give the leaving party and the left party time to adjust.  OTOH, any foot-dragging I engaged in during my own divorce was not bitter or nasty, and he could have put a stop to it by asking.  (Plus I was up front about the fact that I wanted us both to take more time.) 

Oh, well, anecdata…

Comment #9: Ismone  on  09/01  at  08:06 PM

Lefty, those “sad dads” groups basically advocate for the same thing—-that it should be hard for women to escape bad marriages.  They teach each other how to use the courts to repeatedly sue their exes so they can’t move on, and so they can gain control they lost when their (often abused) wives left.  They sue for custody (and lose it, often because of abuse), they sue to keep the wife from being able to move, they often even sue to have detailed accounting of what goes on.  They try to get the courts to control ex-wives abilities to date again or even make choices like smoking, drinking, or controlling their own diet.  Most importantly, they find reasons to sue so that the wife will never stop being punished for thinking she had a right to say no.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/01  at  08:10 PM

Before Illinois got no-fault divorce, there was some catch-all “fault” called “mental cruelty” that could be invoked in the absence of any actual, substantial grounds. It was ridiculously vague and could be construed as something like snapping at your spouse (and who hasn’t)? It was all a stupid charade.

This woman hits most of the hoary arguments against no-fault, especially this one:

...no-fault divorce takes away a woman’s bargaining chips when her husband decides he wants to ditch her.

Yes, well, every married couple in the state should not be held hostage against the possibility that some jerk wants to ditch his wife. Divorce judges should have enough discretion (and common sense) to make the appropriate decisions in those cases.

Comment #11: Bitter Scribe  on  09/01  at  08:12 PM

Amanda,
stick rule cleanup needed on the threads below

Comment #12: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  09/01  at  08:15 PM

Here’s the lesson women should get from this, even though saying so invariably pisses people off: housewifery is a very risky vocation.  Women should be aware that love can go south rapidly and even, occasionally, without warning.  I suppose that’s true of other jobs, but the thing is other jobs can go on your resume.  If you get laid off, you often get severance.  I do think the law should accommodate housewives and make sure they’re compensated for their sacrifices.  But most women, I just would recommend thinking very carefully before deciding to give up that paycheck-drawing employment.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/01  at  08:21 PM

Where, who, MA?

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/01  at  08:22 PM

The Beckstock thread immediately below—stick rule itself is back.

Comment #15: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  09/01  at  08:25 PM

My ex was a stay-at-home mom and a home-schooler as well, and her love of doing that was part of what made her stay as long as she did.  She was encouraged to sue me for more so she could live independently and stay at home and still not work, but knew that this was a ridiculous burden for both herself, me, and the children if we weren’t going to be together to do that.  Even though she’s a selfish ass and twisted my heart in a million ways before stomping on it, I’m glad my ex is a mature human being with an ability to reason.

Being a housewife is a great thing if you can afford it*, but it’s got all the stability of a marriage.

*and of course, if it’s wanted as well.  Same goes for men who “don’t work”.

Comment #16: 3letterjon  on  09/01  at  08:29 PM

I disagree, I think the woman is just really, really hurt and actually suffering under a patriarchal ideal of what marriage is supposed to be. I mean, what kind of woman wants to stay with a man who cheated on her? I don’t think she has any esteem. MRA’s do it in a entitled, pompous and controlling way. I think she’s just disoriented from what he did to her. I also think she’s also pissed because she became a stay at home mom while he was out philandering. I understand her resentment. Her former husband sounds like a total asshole. However, I think she’s daft for opposing no fault.

Comment #17: BeanS  on  09/01  at  08:40 PM

My understanding is that judges in CA will tell non-working ex-spouses to get a job rather than expecting to live exclusively off child/spousal support.  Of course, the far, far greater problem is ex-spouses (primarily men) who don’t pay their child support—another cause celebre` among MRA types. 

As for this travesty of an article…wow, just wow.  I do couples therapy, and I can’t imagine a more potent formula for an unhappy marriage than to force someone to stay who doesn’t want to.  The reason couples who choose to stay married often “muddle through” difficult times is just that—they’ve chosen to try to make it work.  Forcing someone to stay is a recipe for misery for all involved.

Comment #18: Captain Bathrobe  on  09/01  at  08:43 PM

Okay, so this new term taking the internet by storm: “butthurt”

What exactly is the origin of this?  I know it’s being used to mean an overreaction to some perceived slight, but the word itself refers to…..the pain of getting fucked in the ass?  And if that’s the case, isn’t it just an offshoot of the common gamer refrain of referring to every tiny loss as getting “raped?”

If I’m taking it way in the wrong direction, my apologies.  But I’m curious about it because I’m seeing it everywhere now.

Comment #19: Blitzgal  on  09/01  at  08:50 PM

Amanda at #13,

Yeah, it is super-risky.  The opportunity cost for giving up a career really sucks.  And if the couple hasn’t saved much money, well, there isn’t necessarily a way to pay the stay at home spouse so they can get back up to speed.  It bothers me that when people complain about alimony, they don’t consider the stay at home spouse.  What else is s/he supposed to do?  Unless the couple is wealthy, and the stay at home spouse can be compensated through a property division (or can easily up and get a job) it is really unfair, esp. if the working spouse bullied them into staying at home, which as 3letterjon acknowledges, does happen.

Comment #20: Ismone  on  09/01  at  08:54 PM

One thing Willett got wrong is the “every state but NY had no-fault divorce by 1985”.  I was divorced in Arkansas in 1993, and you still had to have grounds.  As Bitter Scribe mentioned, though, you could use broad categories such as “mental cruelty” or “failure to contribute financially to the marriage” so it wasn’t difficult, but it still was not no-fault.  Oh, and if my soon-to-be-ex, who lived in another state. wanted to contest the divorce but couldn’t afford an attorney, I would have to pay for one to protect “his interests”.  Perhaps this comes under the heading of “the one who wants the divorce pays”, but it would be a real burden for a person who wanted out of a bad marriage but didn’t have a lot of money.

Comment #21: NobleExperiments  on  09/01  at  08:57 PM

Blitzgal @ 19

When I think of “butthurt,” I think of a child who’s been spanked—not that this is necessarily any better.  I think the implication is that the butthurt person in question is acting like a spoiled child or a poor sport.  So, yeah, possible child abuse instead of rape—six of one, etc.

Comment #22: Captain Bathrobe  on  09/01  at  08:58 PM

What did she think would happen if she found a way to keep her husband from actually divorcing her?  That he would break up with his girlfriend, move back home, get into bed and make sweet love to his legal wife?

Yes. Because that’s how it works in all those movies and lame-ass books, right? The husband realizes what a fool he’s been and ditches his bimbo to run back into the loving arms of his wife, who instantly forgives him. And if he won’t, well then you switch to the narrative of Punish the Bastard.

What Willett doesn’t get is that “no fault” doesn’t prevent divorce. It simply means that what you have to prove for the divorce is ‘this marriage ain’t working no more’, instead of that your partner cheated on you or beat you. You can still fight the divorce.

Comment #23: mythago  on  09/01  at  09:09 PM

The last time I had a boyfriend I thought was cheating, I discovered that my primary emotion was angry impatience: “Don’t drag this out. Just admit it and break up with me already.”

I can understand going through stages of denial and clinginess and anger as you’re grieving the end of a relationship. I can understand going through a stage where you feel like “I will MAKE you stay and love me again, if I have to kill you to do it!” And what you do then is, you put “Rid of Me” on repeat and you wail along with PJ Harvey through your tears, until you’re exhausted and you feel a little more calm.

What you do not do is get on a years-long self-righteous trip about how you SHOULD have been able to make him stay no matter what you had to do to him, because it’s about the sanctity of marriage and the good of the children.

Comment #24: snowmentality  on  09/01  at  09:30 PM

I think the implication is that the butthurt person in question is acting like a spoiled child or a poor sport.

That’s what I thought, too.  But if it is rape—is calling someone “butthurt” any worse than saying “you’ve been fucked over” or “I got fucked by the car dealership?”

Comment #25: Ben D.  on  09/01  at  09:31 PM

PiaToR pointed out in an earlier thread that male opposition to no-fault divorce tells a short tale: “the b*tch done left him.” I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that there are some women who are bitter and petulant enough to create the country-music sequel single: “the bastard done left her.”

Comment #26: Gracchus.  on  09/01  at  09:35 PM

Blitzgal, I use “butthurt” to mean hurt in a way that has definite pain and so forth, but it’s being exaggerated and used in a manipulative way to get sympathy in an inappropriate way.  A hurt person has a rough divorce.  A butthurt person is cheated out of a happy marriage and all men/women are unfair to that person and is a victim and it’s wrong and so forth, and so on, et cetera.

I don’t think it has anything to do with anal sex of any sort.  At least I don’t mean it to.

Comment #27: 3letterjon  on  09/01  at  09:43 PM

A more humourous take on “butthurt”: someone’s been sitting on an uncomfortable chair (because they’re a martyr!) fussing over whatever’s wrong (because getting up and doing something else would mean moving on!) for so long that their butt hurts.

But on a more serious note: nobody *likes* the idea of a divorce.  But it’s better than spending years fighting over whether the relationship should even exist, much less how to fix it.  That’s the kind of thing that only works in fiction, like single waitresses living in luxury apartments and there always being a parking space right outside of the doctor’s office.

Comment #28: fluffster  on  09/01  at  10:01 PM

I fear “butthurt” may also have some homophobic implications.  Personally, I don’t like the term for that reason.

Comment #29: James  on  09/01  at  10:02 PM

Maybe I’m being dense and not understanding what “men’s rights” means, but how is she advocating for it?

She’s buying into the MRA’s patriarchal narrative: one spouse should be able to use the law to hold the other hostage or bully them. The MRAs believe that the former spouse should be the husband, because that’s the natural way of things in their evo-psych view. That Willett believes it should be the other way around, or even equally applicable, doesn’t change the denial of the other party’s agency.

Comment #30: Gracchus.  on  09/01  at  10:07 PM

Um…my strong Southern woman upbringing included the idea that if/when divorce becomes inevitable, it should be handled with grace and dignity.  Seems Ms. Willett missed that memo.

Comment #31: Leely  on  09/01  at  10:15 PM

For some reason, I always thought that “butthurt” came from “Turkish Revenge” from the movie Midnight Express – when Turkish criminals would stab their adversaries in the butt cheek because it was a lesser sentence then a more potentially fatal stabbing

But the spanked child explanation makes more sense

Comment #32: jefft452  on  09/01  at  10:30 PM

” I think she’s off, but I do think it was possible that this came from a place other than hate.”

I might agree if this was just her initial reaction,

but for 5 years?

Comment #33: jefft452  on  09/01  at  10:33 PM

We would never stand for arranged marriages, so why do we tolerate unilateral divorce

HEAD. DESK.

How did a woman so stupid manage to tie her shoes for so many years?

Comment #34: kristin  on  09/01  at  10:34 PM

The thing is that the at-fault divorce laws of New York State worked to her advantage if she was willing to accept the divorce: he was at fault for committing adultery, and this would have entitled her to more of the family assets and/or alimony. He moved out of the house, which means she was abandoned, and thus could have a claim on the house, and he would lose his share. So the divorce laws of New York placed her in a good position, but instead of using those laws to her advantage, she engaged in a futile and self-destructive act that was worse for everyone.

(the reason we have no-fault divorce, of course, is to stop the perverse incentives that the laws created by causing couples who wanted a divorce to fight over perceived slights or even fabricate accusations in the hopes of getting a better settlement, but in Willett’s case, it actually would have helped her if she used the law correctly or understood was it was for)

Comment #35: Tyro  on  09/01  at  10:53 PM

Being “butthurt” is more plausibly the outcome of an ass-whuppin’ than an ass-raping. The whole point of calling someone “butthurt” is to imply that their pride is hurt way more than they are. To be butthurt is to be spuriously indignant.

Even the creeps who think ass-rape is funny tend to use it as a metaphor for the ultimate violation—even in jest.  (“The IRS fucked me up the ass on this one…”) They don’t joke about anal rape like it’s a petty slight that some people get bent out of shape over. Someone who is irate about being forcibly sodomized, even in their twisted estimation, is someone who is legitimately aggrieved. Ergo, not butthurt.

Comment #36: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  09/01  at  10:54 PM

I like to think of “butthurt” as having a hint of buyer’s remorse—you liked what you got but you won’t admit it… but really, what does that have to do with this crazy woman who can’t let go?

Comment #37: BrianX  on  09/01  at  11:00 PM

kristin: velcro!

No fault divorce does make me uneasy I’m afraid, but only because I’ve literally seen the absolute worst possible outcome of it. Where literally the deadbeat spouse was able to demand half the breadwinner’s pension when they broke up the marriage so they could run off with a deal on the side. Affair was not admissible in the courtroom.

But that doesn’t mean that I ignore the history or divorce before no-fault. With the Private Investigators, the trumped-up charges, etc. And even though in my example the deadbeat was the man and the put-upon breadwinner was the woman, historically speaking, the person with the money (the man) was able to use that to his advantage in the era before no-fault divorce to really make the person without the money (the woman) absolutely destitute.

Prenups + no fault are a much better idea. I think when people divorce they usually have a lot of pent-up rage on their spouse because divorce is supposed to be hard, otherwise, they could have split up before things started to actually fester. So being able to agree beforehand that IF things do go south, each person should be allowed _____ is the best way to go.

Comment #38: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/01  at  11:00 PM

I still can’t wrap my head around wanting someone who clearly doesn’t want me. As far as hurting them? Well, living well is the best revenge…

Comment #39: John Joel Glanton  on  09/01  at  11:05 PM

Also a good reminder of why I will never touch family law with a ten foot pole.

Comment #40: John Joel Glanton  on  09/01  at  11:06 PM

Also, even though this is like, the 40th time we’ve had to hash out the relative offensiveness of the term “butthurt,” I still have to say that for me context means that the ONLY interpretation is: You catch a kid doing something bad, you give them a swat on the butt, and they throw a temper tantrum like you opened up on them with a paddle with nails sticking through it. There’s a facial expression and everything that I associate with the phrase “butthurt.” It is not in any way a homophobic phrase, it is SPECIFICALLY linked to a person a) doing something shitty, b) getting called on it, and c) acting like they have just been served the greatest injustice in the world and that no one else has ever suffered an injustice anywhere near what they have just suffered.

Comment #41: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/01  at  11:08 PM

You know, and I know this is a really radical position to take, but I’m not even entirely sure why the legal arena should even involve itself in relationships in the first place, and I think this case is exactly why the law should just be removed from any relationships (to be very clear, yes, I advocate the elimination of legal marriages).

Comment #42: Elliot  on  09/01  at  11:10 PM

Where literally the deadbeat spouse was able to demand half the breadwinner’s pension when they broke up the marriage so they could run off with a deal on the side.

MP, bolded your mistake there - when you get married, you are (more or less, depending on your state) entering into a joint economic union. It’s not “the breadwinner’s pension”. It’s THEIR pension. You’re buying into the same mindset as the MRAs who whine about ‘the bitch got MY money’.

Comment #43: mythago  on  09/01  at  11:27 PM

@42 Elliot - I suppose the state’s involved because people are going to pair up one way or another anyway, and there should be some kind of legislation that attempts to make these pairings and their dissolutions as fair as possible. I’m not a big advocate for marriage either, but eliminating it won’t stop it from happening. Same with religion and abortion and child birth.

Comment #44: snobographer  on  09/01  at  11:37 PM

Umm, butthurt. I’ve always seen it used in situations where the stated outrage is out of proportion to the actual insult.

It kind of ranks as “old” internet slang to me. In the circles where I generally am, it was cool slang about ten years back.

Comment #45: hp  on  09/01  at  11:41 PM

myth—the problem is that in most marriages, there is still someone who makes more income, which was earned by the sweat of the brow. In MOST unions, what ends up happening is that the work of the person who is *not* the breadwinner is completely ignored, because they do not have the money to legally represent their work in a court of law. So for example, your typical MRA will declare that since they made an amazing $50K a year and their wife only made $20K, that she should not be entitled to any portion of his $50K upon the dissolution of their marriage, while completely ignoring all of the unpaid labor that was done around the house in order to make him capable of earning $50K a year: cooking, cleaning, child-rearing, not to mention social and often financial management.  That to me is worth something.

Unfortunately, in this case, it really was that a $50K/year woman, who bailed out her husband’s personal and business debts multiple times whereas he didn’t lift a finger around the house (literally wouldn’t take out the trash, wouldn’t mow the lawn, wouldn’t cook, wouldn’t do dishes—just sat around planning how he was going to show off to his buddies in the ABA), then, after multiple affairs, he declared that he was leaving her for his girlfriend AND going after his wife’s pension AND the house AND her family’s property that she had a stake in…. I mean, does that sound fair to you?

If this guy had done any work around the house, if he had helped with any of the childrearing beyond the occasional authoritarian power trip and a few trips to the soft-serve shack, I could hear the argument that he was part of a joint economy, that the value he added to the economic union entitled him to a share in her retirement. But like I said, this was the Worst Case Scenario, where you literally work your ass off and your good-for-nothing-husband whose reckless spending and lack of income has forced you to take out a second mortgage on the house, and then he decides he’d rather fuck his secretary and that all those years of hard work is going to pay for that.

But, like I said, even after seeing all of that shit happen at a pretty personal level ... I’d still rather have no-fault divorce.

Comment #46: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/01  at  11:42 PM

Who are these people who have no maturity?  Everyone my ages (late 20s to early 30s) have all managed to get divorce with a minimum of fuss, children or no.  Are there nights where we go out to the bar and they drink and cry about every terrible flaw about ex?  Yes, of course.  But then they sober up, go sign the paper, equitably split the house and childcare, and go about their business.  I’ve seen roommate split ups that have had more drama than these divorces.

Pretty much the only people I know, personally, that have this “punish the bitch/bastard” idea about divorce are the people my PARENT’s age.  Is this a generational thing?  Are people in the younger generation just better with the idea that relationships break up?

Or is this anecdata?

Comment #47: Antigone  on  09/01  at  11:47 PM

MP, bolded your mistake there - when you get married, you are (more or less, depending on your state) entering into a joint economic union. It’s not “the breadwinner’s pension”. It’s THEIR pension. You’re buying into the same mindset as the MRAs who whine about ‘the bitch got MY money’.

Isn’t this dependent on whether a state is a community property state or not? Heard from a couple of recently divorced friends that it isn’t as simple as you made it out to be….especially if the marriage lasted less than 10 years and the divorce takes place in a non-community property state like NY.

Comment #48: exholt  on  09/01  at  11:47 PM

exholt—yeah, it’s state-by-state.

Comment #49: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/01  at  11:50 PM

Chiming in to agree with Mighty Ponygirl.  So much of feminism circa 2010 is sticking women with a full menu of detriments and giving men a free pass in the name of equality or gender neutrality.  Courts have really bought into it.  So if a wife in a divorce had earned all the money, they’ll give the husband gets his nice 50%—even though he did nothing to contribute, as did the stay-at-home wives of yore. 

Anecdata:  A female friend of mine was a young lawyer married to a deadbeat, loafing artsy pseudo-artist.  He undermined her career every step of the way by pouting and demanding attention to himself.  The night before she took the bar exam, he said he had “gastric distress” and demanded to be taken to the hospital emergency room.  When they got divorced, he got the house she’d paid for.

And like MP, I totally want no-fault divorce.  It has saved women’s lives.  Since it got underway 35 years ago, married women have committed suicide at a fraction of the rate they used to.

Comment #50: Unree  on  09/02  at  12:02 AM

I still have to say that for me context means that the ONLY interpretation is: You catch a kid doing something bad, you give them a swat on the butt, and they throw a temper tantrum like you opened up on them with a paddle with nails sticking through it.

Although we don’t spank, in my family we refer to that general sort of over-reaction as Primal Scream Therapy.

Comment #51: kristin  on  09/02  at  12:09 AM

Who are these people who have no maturity?  Everyone my ages (late 20s to early 30s) have all managed to get divorce with a minimum of fuss, children or no.  Are there nights where we go out to the bar and they drink and cry about every terrible flaw about ex?  Yes, of course.  But then they sober up, go sign the paper, equitably split the house and childcare, and go about their business.  I’ve seen roommate split ups that have had more drama than these divorces.

IME, it is dependent on the divorcing couples concerned.  Some acted with the level of maturity you described…..others ended up fighting it out like two temper tantrum throwing toddlers.  Seems the latter was especially the case with high school/college classmates who decided to jump right into marriage during/not too long after college because what they had was “true luv”.  Add the talk and expounding about monetary, material, and labor assets as a cold business transaction*......and the classmates, family members, and a few acquaintances wonder why I am not too enthused about marriage…or even being in a long-term relationship.  Not helped by having actually experienced dates with and knowing people who felt there was nothing wrong with looking at potential romantic partners as a set of material/labor skill assets.  rolleyes

* Granted some of this is due to my strong aversion to having any discussion related to finances period….much less my personal finances because IME…it is a lose-lose discussion in many awkward ways, especially considering how my financially constrained childhood/adolescence with family/extended relatives bickering/discussing such matters is still fresh in my mind.

Comment #52: exholt  on  09/02  at  12:19 AM

Who are these people who have no maturity?  Everyone my ages (late 20s to early 30s) have all managed to get divorce with a minimum of fuss, children or no.

Frankly, I wonder if people in their 20s and 30s are just more confident in being able to find someone new/bounce back financially/generally go on to be awesome. When you’re in your 50s and have been married for 25 years…maybe not so much. Much less tempting to cling and drag and get desperate when you’re still 26 and half your friends haven’t even moved out of their parents’ houses yet [anecdata wink ]

Less about generation and more about life stage, in other words.

Comment #53: Well, what?  on  09/02  at  12:42 AM

Whiners and sulkers always feel they are in the right and everyone else is mean and nasty and wrong.

Comment #54: Kwillow  on  09/02  at  12:52 AM

Whiners and sulkers always feel they are in the right and everyone else is mean and nasty and wrong.

I have found that mentally exaggerating my own feelings of hurt to the point where even I find them ridiculous in my head helps restore a sense of perspective.

“He has cut me off in traffic.  Lo, I shall hunt him down and key his car, I shall take after him with a high powered rifle.  I shall burn down his house, execute his children and salt the land upon which he has walked - gosh, I am a bit of a tool getting angry at this, aren’t I?”

Comment #55: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/02  at  01:31 AM

A caveat: I’d say it’s possible for an otherwise strong person to decide to throw good money after bad. But they wouldn’t bother pretending that they were doing something super-noble.

Comment #56: Well, what?  on  09/02  at  01:52 AM

knowing people who felt there was nothing wrong with looking at potential romantic partners as a set of material/labor skill assets.

It’s only Traditional Chinese Values in action :-D.

OTOH, the only thing my parent’s marriages and those of their parents have in common was that on all three occasions neither party had a pot to piss in.

Comment #57: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/02  at  02:13 AM

Also, even though this is like, the 40th time we’ve had to hash out the relative offensiveness of the term “butthurt,” . . .

The fact that we keep having to hash out whether people are right to take offense at it is a good reason to stop using it.  I’ve raised this only once before, but I’ll raise it again since others have chimed in.

I don’t deny that some people mean only to invoke the idea of a child being overly upset at a mild spanking, and I certainly don’t think anyone here means anything more than that.  But that’s not the only way butthurt is used.  It’s also used as a homophobic slur, trading on the shame and outrage that one is supposed to feel after penetrative anal sex.

Check out the Encyclopedia Dramatica page to be crystal clear on that point.

Even if you don’t mean it that way (and I know no Pandagonians do), every time it comes up, I’ve got to think about how you don’t mean it in the homophobic way, which inevitably brings all the homophobic stuff up anyway, which, aside from being unpleasant, is distracting (as this 40th derail shows).  Further, using in the “right” way provides cover to the homophobes who can use the ambiguity to hide their motives.  Further still, some of the homophobes will simply assume that you mean what they mean, only reinforcing the idea that using it that way doesn’t mean they hate gay people or anything* since even LGBT-friendly blogs do it!

So can we please, please, please stop using it?

*See also: “Calling something gay just means it’s stupid; that doesn’t mean you hate gay people.”

*I’m not convinced that the folk etymologies offered here are accurate, but, like everyone else, have nothing to anecdata to back that up.

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Comment #60: jerseys  on  09/02  at  04:16 AM

Mighty Ponygirl, I read this blog every day and I honestly haven’t seen it hashed out 40 times.  I understand the behavior that it’s being used to describe from the context, as I explained in my post.  And I’ve seen Amanda use it many times since that big story cropped up about men not liking female musicians, and after seeing someone in the thread use it again I just wondered.  I’m glad most people here think it refers to the overreaction to be spanked, but the folks at Know Your Meme and Urban Dictionary think it means:

“A special feeling in the lower backside after it has been kicked or fucked. It is usually characterized by noisy whining and complaining after being owned.”

That definition isn’t the first one on the page but it is there and it’s what came up when I Googled the term.  It just feels like something that’s come out of the same online gamer community that I’ve seen endlessly characterizing every loss or pwning as being raped, that’s all.

Comment #61: Blitzgal  on  09/02  at  07:36 AM

She loved him so much she was willing to spend the next five years of her life trying to exact punishment.  That’s not love.  That’s hate.  . . . There’s nothing strong about being a clingy, vindictive control freak.  That is cowardly and weak.  I want to drive this home, because like this woman thinks of her weak, childish behavior as evidence of some strength, so do MRAs tend to pride themselves on being Big Men, even as they act like toddlers throwing tantrums because other human beings don’t submit completely to them.  All of these people are 100% wrong in their self-assessment. Strong people don’t need to exert control over others to feel strong.  Strong people don’t waste their lives on revenge.  Strong people have the strength to get up and move on.  Strong people don’t throw good money after bad.

Amanda - you just illustrated exactly why my ex was an absolute hellion.  Thank you, I wish I could be so articulate about how rotten our separation and divorce was.

Comment #62: idiosynchronic  on  09/02  at  08:39 AM

Huh, I was always faintly sure that “butthurt” referred to rage-typing-in-office-chair-induced hemorrhoids. The more you know!

Comment #63: purpleshoes  on  09/02  at  09:31 AM

Yes, we’ve definitely had this argument before.

Pointing to a site set up by screaming assholes who do everything they can to piss people off as some sort of proof that “butthurt” is an offensive, homophobic term is not proof that something is offensive and homophobic. It’s proof that the people running that site are offensive and homophobic.

Butthurt is not about anal sex/rape—because the term does not describe legitimate outrage. If someone anally raped you, Yes. I imagine your ass would hurt, and you would be very upset about it. But your feelings of hurt would be commiserate with the injustice that had happened to you. Ergo, you would not be BUTTHURT. If you are playing Halo, and you get your ass handed to you, and you ragequit, someone is probably going to declare you’re butthurt, and they may even link it to the fact that they “raped you” but that’s only because gamers cannot conceptualize of much of any sort of competition outside of sexual domination. Like ED, pointing to someone who tosses around terms about being raped whenever something happens to them they don’t like is not proof that a term is homophobic.

You are BUTTHURT when you act like a little shitbag, and someone calls you on it, and then you start screaming your outraged little head off that someone slapped your behind and told you NO. The term is describing a very specific relationship between those three things.

Do a search on the term “butthurt” in this very blog. You will find it used in posts primarily about Republicans whining about how victimized they are because they were told that they can’t discriminate against gay people. This is not analogous with anal rape, it’s analogous with people throwing a tantrum after they have been stopped from doing something wrong.

Comment #64: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/02  at  09:40 AM

p.s. Not that I’m justifying this whackjob’s complete lack of belief in spousal consent. There was just some speculation as to why younger people seem to have slightly calmer divorces; I have noticed this too, and wanted to offer theories.

Comment #65: purpleshoes  on  09/02  at  09:56 AM

huh, it ate my preceding comment, which was that Boomer women seem more likely to carry old-school, Mad-Men level disenfranchisement while being the first generation where divorce was super-common. Now, it’s possible later generations just aren’t disenfranchised yet. Give us twenty years in mommy-track careers and then let’s see if we fight over the alimony.

This woman’s still a whackjob, though - as noted earlier, she could have kept the house super-easily instead of throwing money away in a tantrum.

Comment #66: purpleshoes  on  09/02  at  09:59 AM

MP, I’m not saying that people on this blog are using the term as a homophobic slur.  I am saying that it is not the case that the term is innocuous.  Even if it can be used in an innocuous sense, that’s not the only way it is used. 

Nor am I saying there is some essential aspect of the term that makes it homophobic (or not).  I am saying that it is used as a homophobic slur and an innocuous insult, and that the mixed usages make it problematic for the reasons I listed above.

Comment #67: Thom  on  09/02  at  10:01 AM

I just have to point out that I object, on principle, to the notion that the meaning of a word is derived from its etymology and not how it’s used by everyday people.  I have no idea what the etymology of “butthurt” is, but I can’t help but think that, like “sucked”, even if it started off as a gross sexual reference, it is so much never used that way that it can’t be taken that way.  If we insisted on taking every word as it was meant when it first was used in other, non-seeking-offense reasons, then the ability of humans to communicate would break down.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/02  at  10:12 AM

In my state, if you’ve been married for more than 10 years and you decide to get divorced, your ex is entitled to a portion of you retirement. My ex cheated on me with a woman half his age, and I could have filed for cause, but I did the no fault divorce, pro se. My divorce cost me less than $300, and since it was finalized, my credit score has gone up, my anxiety has gone down, and my children and I have become closer.

Comment #69: maurinsky  on  09/02  at  10:34 AM

“Also, I can only imagine the damage inflicted in their children—what kind of model for a relationship is it when you watch one parent punish the other for 5 years?”

For real.  Most people with a grip on how reality works take the daughter’s “I don’t want you to get a divorce” moment and explain that they know she doesn’t, and they don’t either, but you can’t always have things the way you want them, and you can’t make other people stay with you, but no matter what happens, both of you still love her, and nothing about that has changed.  Basically the “things change, you can’t stop it, but everything’s still going to be okay” speech.  You know, the opposite of teaching your kid that the appropriate reaction to change and being hurt is to freak out like your life depends on making sure this person never leaves you.

Comment #70: preying mantis  on  09/02  at  10:39 AM

Deconstructing context can be very enlightening.

But sometimes overthinking commonly-used phrases is just a pain in the ass.

Comment #71: Yamara  on  09/02  at  10:44 AM

I think one of the keys here is the archetypal MRA definition of “loving marriage”: one where the other spouse does what you want and doesn’t bother you with their petty emotional crap. If you’re working from that kind of basis, then the idea of “saving the marriage” when your ex-spouse is already living with a new partner makes perfect sense.

Of course, it raise serious questions about the marriage pre-breakup, but duh.

Comment #72: paul  on  09/02  at  10:52 AM

“Made of strong Southern female stock…” 

What a load.

Comment #73: happyfungirl  on  09/02  at  10:55 AM

they sue to keep the wife from being able to move

I see a lot of these cases in family court.  (BTW, New York is one of the few remaining states that makes relocation really hard if both parents have an ongoing relationship with the children.) 

However, most of the cases I’ve handled are pretty much on the level (and working for Legal Aid, I’ve worked both sides of this fence).  Usually, what I get is a case where both parents are very involved in the childrens’ lives, but the primary custodial parent (PCP) wants to move because of a better job opportunity.  (A less frequent variant is the PCP’s new partner wants to relocate for a better job opportunity.)

Here is the thing: if the PCP relocates a significant distance (say from Binghamton, NY to Ashville, NC) the other parent will not be as involved in the child’s life.  The other parent will not be able to attend the child’s school play or sporting events, will not be an active presence in the child’s life, and will likely see the child a few weeks out of the year.  This is a significant disruption to the parent-child relationship.  In virtually all of the cases, the child in question does not want the relationship with the non-primary parent disrupted.  Thus the courts will tend to order that the child not be relocated.  This places the burden on the PCP to choose between taking the new job an letting the other parent become the PCP or staying put with the child.  (The courts can’t tell someone not to move, only order that the child not be relocated.)

Almost every vindictive relocation petition I have seen has failed because the non-PCP parent did not have a good relationship with the children.  And in the majority of these cases, the non-PCP parent did not really care about the child (not exercising visitation, being way behind in support) but are just latching on to the relocation issue to harass the ex.  Sure, this is misuse of the law, but the basic policy of the law is sound.  All laws can be misused to harass people, but that’s the key - ‘misuse’.

The upshot is (at least in NY), when you have child with someone, and that someone becomes or remains an important part of your child’s life, you are going to be stuck dealing with them until the child turns 18.  So it goes.

Comment #74: Richard Goblin  on  09/02  at  11:05 AM

Thom,

I wouldn’t suggest Encyclopedia Dramatica as a reference source if you are trying to make points about equality and respect.  The site just doesn’t have much… tact.  That’s about as euphemistically as I can put it.

I prefer Urban Dictionary for word definitions, but I’ll go to that one if I want to see a guy sit on a jar and have a catastrophic result.

Here’s a link: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=butthurt

Comment #75: 3letterjon  on  09/02  at  11:13 AM

I do think the law should accommodate housewives and make sure they’re compensated for their sacrifices.

Indeed.  Divorce, at its most basic level, is the dissolution of a business partnership.  (Yes, there are emotional issues that come into play but we REALLY do NOT want the courts adjudicating those.)  The household had certain resources coming in to be used by the members.  If one member took a career hit to contribute more labor to the household (raising children, housework, what have you) then the person bringing money into the household generally* needs to support the other person if the partnership dissolves.  This is because the household benefited from the labor of the stay at home spouse - so when the partnership dissolves the stay at home spouse is entitled to get back her** investment in the household.

Still, I agree that sacrificing your career to stay home is just way too risky.

*I can think of exceptions to the general principle, but don’t have the time to discuss them.
** And sometimes, though exceedingly rarely ‘him’.  There, now the MRA guys can’t complain; they got their “shout out.”  wink

Comment #76: Richard Goblin  on  09/02  at  11:15 AM

@ Amanda:

I just have to point out that I object, on principle, to the notion that the meaning of a word is derived from its etymology and not how it’s used by everyday people.  I have no idea what the etymology of “butthurt” is, but I can’t help but think that, like “sucked”, even if it started off as a gross sexual reference, it is so much never used that way that it can’t be taken that way.

What Mighty Ponygirl said. 

Your excuse that ‘butthurt’ equates with “sucked” rings hollow.  It’s like the guy who says “tard” just means someone is acting dumb and they don’t mean to disparage people with cognitive disabilities.  Or the guy who calls something he doesn’t like ‘gay’ but says that he has no problem with actual gay people (hey, some of his best friends are gay, right?).  Or my all time favorite, people on Modern Warfare 2 who call everyone and everything ‘fags’ but just as a generic insult.  They would never mean to imply that something is wrong with faggots, er I mean homosexual-Americans.

I see ‘butthurt’ and it has the same impact that seeing ‘tard’, ‘gay’ used negatively, or ‘fag’ would have.  Please stop using this term.

Comment #77: Richard Goblin  on  09/02  at  11:24 AM

Yikes!  Preview is your friend.

I initially was going to say that ‘butthurt’ definitely sounds homophobic.  But rereading Mighty Ponygirl’s argument convinced me otherwise.  I cut the wrong paragraph.  Sorry.

Comment #78: Richard Goblin  on  09/02  at  11:49 AM

I still can’t wrap my head around wanting someone who clearly doesn’t want me.

It’s not that incomprehensible.  You can’t turn feelings on and off like a switch.  What’s actually boggling is doing something hateful (for a sustained period!) and claiming your motivation is Twu Wuv.  Of course, doing horrible things to people you claim to love is the primary wingnut M.O.  Resentment and revenge are part of the package deal for them, unlike for us, for whom that territory is a wake-up call to stop being a flaming asshole.

Comment #79: bomberE  on  09/02  at  12:10 PM

It’s only Traditional Chinese Values in action :-D.

OTOH, the only thing my parent’s marriages and those of their parents have in common was that on all three occasions neither party had a pot to piss in.

Two points:

1. That form of “Traditional Chinese Values” would be considered a manifestation of the “low-class/low-brow” attitudes of those who privilege mercenary attitudes over personal intellectual growth/educational achievement.  One reason why there is so much bad blood between my parents’ families as my father identifies with the older Confucian values of privileging personal intellectual growth/educational achievement whereas mom’s side of the family exhibit those mercenary attitudes*...though quite mild compared to the crap I heard from some classmates parents.  It is also a reason why I don’t consider calling it “Traditional Chinese Values” to be 100% correct as my academic research into a related topic and personal experiences has shown that this attitude is much more common among those who are apathetic and/or have completely rejected the “Traditional Chinese Values” of valuing intellectualism and intellectual growth for something far beyond mercenary/materialistic considerations such as becoming the next billionaire. 

2. The vast majority of the high school/college classmates who ended up going through 1 or more divorces in the interval between our graduation from college-present were not Asian/Asian-Americans….but a wide variety of different races/ethnicity with Caucasians particularly standing out. 

* Mom vehemently disagrees with her family on this point and feels such materialistic considerations to that extent is cold and inhuman.

Comment #80: exholt  on  09/02  at  12:15 PM

Personally, I believe that there should be some sanctions built into no-fault divorces in cases of spousal physical/emotional abuse, non-contribution to the household, frittering away the family money on extremely ill-considered purchases/gambling, etc. 

I do believe it is wrong for a spouse who has exhibited one or more of the above being allowed to take his/her full half of the couple’s assets if s(he) has exhibited one or more of the above as that would actually be far more than his/her fair share IMHO.

Comment #81: exholt  on  09/02  at  12:23 PM

I want to note that one of the initial demands of a lot of women in the feminist movement of the 1970s was pensions, retirement plans, and health insurance for housewives. Alimony is not as good. I am sad that we didn’t get that; I still think we should, but it’s just not something our culture can get its head around anymore. I think partially because these days people who deliberately plan to drop out of the formal workforce and do unpaid domestic/familial labor for the rest of their lives tend to be too socially conservative to ally themselves with feminist causes. Still, if you look at old ERA marches, you will see a lot of signs about rights for housewives.

Comment #82: purpleshoes  on  09/02  at  12:28 PM

MP @46: You’re mixing up “husband was an asshole” with “fair”. You’re still singing from the MRA playbook: it’s the breadwinner’s money, but perhaps the non-breadwinner has some moral claim on it if she can prove that she was good enough and worked hard enough to have earned it. “That bitch doesn’t deserve any of my paycheck because she just sat around the house all day with the kid, how hard is that?” I get that you agree no-fault is better, but when you start talking about “his money/her money” and whether there’s a moral right to it, you’re falling down the rabbit hole. You get married, you stop being able to be It’s All Mine.

exholt @48 - hence my ‘more or less’ statement. Non-community property states don’t divide everything 50/50 (that’s an oversimplification too, but still). But it’s no longer the era where the husband owns all the money.

Comment #83: mythago  on  09/02  at  12:31 PM

exholt—I would agree, except then it’s not “no fault divorce” and in order to prove that a person did X Y and Z, people hire private investigators, charges are trumped-up, typically the person who makes more money can effectively distort reality to protect their investment, and we’re back to square one.

As much as it would have been great if the woman in my example could walk into a courtroom and declare that her husband was a lying, cheating deadbeat who didn’t contribute at all to the household, he could have just as easily walked into the courtroom and declared that she was physically and emotionally abusive.

Comment #84: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/02  at  12:34 PM

I don’t think a pre-nup is feasible unless both partners are already mostly established financially and have a pretty good idea of their courses in life. Of course, things can change at any time, but a couple in their 30s with solid careers are going to know more about their probable financial future than a couple just out of college or in grad school. Right now I make much more than my husband and he has significant student loans that I don’t, but he’s a writer and someday we hope that his income will exceed mine. We considered a pre-nup but didn’t bother because there are too many unknown factors. We also know that our finances are linked and that whatever we both make contributes to our combined wellbeing, and that if one of us starts to not contribute, it’s a problem for us both.

Both of us have married parents (his unhappily, mine tolerably), and I don’t expect to ever be married to anyone but him (we’re in our late 20s) but I’m not afraid of divorce if it has to happen. It’s better to have a mechanism to correct a mistake than force us to try to make the best of a bad situation.

Comment #85: cifweltr  on  09/02  at  12:41 PM

exholt @48 - hence my ‘more or less’ statement. Non-community property states don’t divide everything 50/50 (that’s an oversimplification too, but still). But it’s no longer the era where the husband owns all the money.

A reason why I brought up that point earlier is that unless the laws have changed very recently, property….including real estate is exempted if it was inherited from an individual’s family.  A reason why an acquaintance in a no-fault state was able to keep her house without having to include it into assets to be split up with her deadbeat ex-spouse. 

exholt—I would agree, except then it’s not “no fault divorce” and in order to prove that a person did X Y and Z, people hire private investigators, charges are trumped-up, typically the person who makes more money can effectively distort reality to protect their investment, and we’re back to square one.

As much as it would have been great if the woman in my example could walk into a courtroom and declare that her husband was a lying, cheating deadbeat who didn’t contribute at all to the household, he could have just as easily walked into the courtroom and declared that she was physically and emotionally abusive.

Point taken though I feel something’s wrong when the divorced deadbeat ex-spouse is allowed to collect on the non-deadbeat ex-spouse’s retirement for the rest of his/her life as that does effectively act to continually tie the non-deadbeat ex-spouse to the deadbeat for the rest of his/her life.

Comment #86: exholt  on  09/02  at  12:44 PM

I don’t think a pre-nup is feasible unless both partners are already mostly established financially and have a pretty good idea of their courses in life.

Additionally, there needs to be a change from the current standard where many judges tend to disregard pre-nups in practice if the marriage has lasted more than 7-10 years. 

Else, 7-10 years is the effective length of time a pre-nup is effective.

Comment #87: exholt  on  09/02  at  12:48 PM

Myth, I don’t think I am.  I don’t think, regardless of gender, that anyone should be entitled to payments going forward after the dissolution of the marriage contract simply because their marriage placed them in a certain tax bracket/lifestyle that they had an expectation of continuing. That goes for men and women. Children are absolutely another matter: child support should provide a reasonable level of comfort for children because they were not part of the contract and shouldn’t suffer as a result of the contract’s dissolution.

I’m a firm believe in packing out what you packed in. So any antiques, heirlooms, etc, that came to me from my side of the family should stay with me should I divorce. Likewise, any antiques and heirlooms that came to him from his side should stay with him should he divorce. And while it’s harder to prove in a court of law, basic decency would dictate that anything given as a gift during the marriage should stay with the recipient. Likewise, if I am working and there is a 401(k) or a pension or an IRA—something that I am contributing to but can’t touch until I retire and I divorce before that retirement happens, I see absolutely no reason that a person should be allowed to treat that as income at the moment when I am not. That money will not be income until I retire, well after the divorce is finalized.

Comment #88: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/02  at  12:50 PM

Point taken though I feel something’s wrong when the divorced deadbeat ex-spouse is allowed to collect on the non-deadbeat ex-spouse’s retirement for the rest of his/her life as that does effectively act to continually tie the non-deadbeat ex-spouse to the deadbeat for the rest of his/her life.

Heh—yes. See comment #88. I agree with you completely.

Comment #89: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/02  at  12:52 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, I think the assumption is still that there’s a dependent spouse who was raising your babies instead of putting money in her own 401(k) and therefore you’re just making up the years she - specifically she, usually - lost from her (or possibly his, fine) own retirement plan in order to provide you with household labor. I’d rather have full rights for the informal workforce, but I’m not going to get that anytime soon.

My current partner and I have already discussed how if we get married with intentions of spawning we want an ironclad contract about what will happen if one of us leaves the formal workforce to do unpaid familial childcare during the course of the relationship. I think just as culturally conservative couples might enter into a marriage where one person becomes an at-home parent without planning for a divorce, many feminist couples enter into a marriage which might admit the possibility of divorce without planning for one spouse to leave the workforce for childcare. You can’t always plan for these things based on your ideological stance on them, you know? My (boomer) parents planned for an egalitarian, feminist marriage, but the fact of the matter is childcare is expensive, maternity leave is barely long enough to let someone recover physically, childbearing can mess your health up pretty good on the long-term, and my mother’s been sent back to entry-level positions at least three times during her career. Shit happens. This is why I respect the marriage-free crowd, but am pretty sure I want a legal contract for myself.

Comment #90: purpleshoes  on  09/02  at  01:05 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, I think the assumption is still that there’s a dependent spouse who was raising your babies instead of putting money in her own 401(k) and therefore you’re just making up the years she - specifically she, usually - lost from her (or possibly his, fine) own retirement plan in order to provide you with household labor.

This is where I am coming from as well.

Comment #91: Richard Goblin  on  09/02  at  01:18 PM

90/91, what about instances where the other spouse was also working, just not saving? Do they still get a cut of your pension pie?

Comment #92: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/02  at  01:33 PM

Hey, MPG - slightly off-topic, but Google’s safe browsing thingy thinks your home page is an attack page for malware.  You might want to check that out.

Comment #93: Dave Fried  on  09/02  at  01:44 PM

yeah, I know. I’m in the process of fixing it.

Now stop stalking me.

Comment #94: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/02  at  01:47 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, that’s why general formal recognition of informal domestic labor would be a better solution than common-property marriage laws, at least in my view. Common-property marriage laws are trouble because they assume a fairly straightforward, one-size-fits-all gendered labor transaction that doesn’t always reflect reality. I really would like to see more people treat marriage as the contract that it is and really assess its terms and requirements in the view of what they think is right and realistic. I’ve said before in these threads that I do think shared households with property held in common probably need some formal sitting-down-and-writing-down-expectations, or you wind up with trouble of the that-was-my-microwave-you-jerk variety even in informal situations.

This is one reason why gay marriage is good for everyone - because reassessing the terms of the institution can only benefit all of us.

Comment #95: purpleshoes  on  09/02  at  01:49 PM

@95: purpleshoes—Right, and we should not presume that unpaid domestic labor happened just because a husband or wife didn’t earn money.

Comment #96: Unree  on  09/02  at  01:57 PM

@94: Dude, when I’m bored at work, I click on things.  It’s like, “ooh, shiny!” but with HTML.

Don’t tell my boss.

Comment #97: Dave Fried  on  09/02  at  02:05 PM

purple—again, it comes down to he said/she said. She may declare that she put her valuable lawyering career on hold to raise his children and keep his house clean so that he could impress the partners and make partner himself, he may declare that she didn’t actually do anything, sat around and ate bon-bons, and hired a nanny to actually raise the kids because she was treating him like a meal ticket.

I don’t think there’s any way around the fact that divorce is messy and people are assholes.  I’ve wracked my brain on how we could equitably protect the rights of women who have given up so much in life to play domestic goddess only to get fucked over in the end when he decides the hot young secretary is a much better lay, while still preventing a system wherein a complete deadbeat can leave someone who has worked hard and adhered to the marriage contract mired in shit when they decide to leave, without creating a system whereby the person with the money can reinvent the legal reality of things to protect their assets. I don’t think it’s possible. Mostly I just feel like a person who chooses to be a stay-at-home parent this day in age is taking a gamble that they need to be aware of. Because the idea of alimony/palimony that is separate from simple child support is absolute crap in my mind.

Comment #98: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/02  at  02:07 PM

My current partner and I have already discussed how if we get married with intentions of spawning we want an ironclad contract about what will happen if one of us leaves the formal workforce to do unpaid familial childcare during the course of the relationship.

At least for retirement purposes, the spouse who is staying at home should take advantage of the outside-of-401(k)-retirement saving possibilities in their name and have it funded via automatic transfers on payday.

We both have roth iras in our own name which we fully fund each year, and in case of divorce, our retirement funds go with each of us.  My year unemployed, I still “got” retirement funds in my own name via this method.

No, it’s not as great as a full 401(k) due to the contribution limits, but that’s something to keep working toward politically. Offer stay-at-homes access to the same type of retirement funds as working spouses.

Comment #99: hp  on  09/02  at  02:17 PM

I’m completely in agreement with MP on this. I’m going through a divorce to a deadbeat spouse who provided nothing in the less than two years we were married to the relationship (no housework, no money, and by the end no emotional support—hence the end). He’s now trying to get the condo and spousal support, and will certainly get half my pension. We’ve been going through the divorce process now for as long as we were married.
That said, until there’s some means of acknowledging the contributions made by spouses to household that are not purely monetary, I support no-fault divorces and all that entails.
But the claims above that as soon as you are married you know that everything is shared irks me because it sounds like the nonsense of someone who has only thought about this in the abstract, not in reality. every relationship is different. and some are inequitable, and that inequity is acknowledged by both parties and accommodated. my ex admitted and acknowledged that he did not contribute equitably to our relationship in terms of finances and that what was mine was mine (including the condo) right up until the day i left him. since then he’s been a victim who’s being cheated out of his fair share.

Comment #100: monster  on  09/02  at  02:23 PM

What purpleshoes said. Especially in a world where many jobs don’t have 401k’s, where multiple retirement accounts mean multiple management fees, and so forth. You can’t easily deduce from simple expenditure/savings numbers who was contributing what to the total wealth of the household. (And if you try to, that generally just leads you down the path of horrible conflicts and lawyer’s fees. In the divorce with which I’m most closely acquainted, for example one spouse claimed credit for all the increases in value of the investment portfolio the other spouse brought into the marriage. Hilarity did not ensue.)

Comment #101: paul  on  09/02  at  02:28 PM

Time for another Life Lesson From Dolly Parton:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrGRgHfTzDw

Our love affair is bittersweet, insecure and incomplete
And I’ve often wondered why your leavin’s been so long delayed
It’s all become so complicated, maybe you feel obligated
And out of sympathy for me you stay

But Id rather live alone than live with someone that doesn’t love me
And I’d rather have your go than stay
And put me down a thinkin’ you’re above me
Our love affair is so wound up it’s best that we unwind
And if you don’t love me leave me and don’t let it trouble your mind hmm

Comment #102: vitaminC  on  09/02  at  02:38 PM

I always thought the act of getting married included giving all of your material possessions over to a joint ownership and your future possessions as well.  I know many many people who get married don’t have the desire to do this that I did… but frankly they need to have pre nups in that case or not get married.  To me, the decision to get married clearly includes the decision “is s/he trustworthy enough to be trusted financially?  Do I really want to give s/him all this money etc.”.  Sometimes we make the wrong decision but if you’ve given someone a gift you later wish you hadn’t given to me its weird to blame the receiver of the gift.  And if the two of you agreed to something that wasn’t legally true (i.e. the condo is yours) it needs to be legally memorialized.

Comment #103: Victoria  on  09/02  at  02:54 PM

I agree that pre-nups aren’t terribly useful unless you already know where you are financially.  I’m opposed to the people who think “If you loved me, you wouldn’t ask for a pre-nup” malarkey: if you’re going to get married, in a lot of ways you have to separate the emotional from the legal and a pre-nup is one of those things.  That being said, I never pre-nuped with my husband because we had nothing but debt.

Comment #104: Antigone  on  09/02  at  03:00 PM

Mighty Ponygirl,

“I don’t think, regardless of gender, that anyone should be entitled to payments going forward after the dissolution of the marriage contract simply because their marriage placed them in a certain tax bracket/lifestyle that they had an expectation of continuing.”

While I kind of agree with this, I still think it is important to consider what the stay-at-home spouse gave up in order to create that standard of living.  Sometimes, the existing property owned by the couple can be divided to compensate that person, other times, if say the working spouse was a resident, going through grad. school, etc., future payments might make more sense.

And regarding the deadbeat SAHS—well, I think you’re just screwed on that, because I don’t think people should be able to “prove” that a SAHS was a deadbeat—it is just too subjective.  So, moral of the story, if your spouse becomes a deadbeat, end it quickly.  That sounds horrible, but sorry.

Comment #105: Ismone  on  09/02  at  03:08 PM

exholt @86 - it’s even more complicated than that when you start getting into the micro level. As Victoria said, the general idea is that when you get married, you are no longer an island. Marriage is not just “Whee, I get to call myself Mrs. Mighty Ponygirl!”, it’s an economic merger of sorts. So yes, even in a community-property state, that creepy old mansion you inherited from your Great-Uncle Lovecraft is yours and not your spouse’s - but if you start using your spouse’s salary to pay to renovate the mansion, you can turn it into community property. And don’t get me started on the rules about valuing businesses. (I, too, stay far away from practicing family law.)

re pensions, as far as I understand it, you don’t get the person’s future income. If they put $X in the 401(k) before you split, that’s shared. It doesn’t mean that you have the right to their pension or income forever after.

But the point is that seeking justice and punishing a jerk spouse with “it’s MY money” is just a watered-down version of the original post we’re talking about, and the MRA bleating about how the bitch just sat on her ass eating bon-bons all day. Marriage is a joint economic union. We don’t really want a system where we do a post-hoc dissection who did what and when and whether that really counted as “work” and “earning” at all. (You spent 60+ hours at the office - well you need to deduct the time you spent at fancy lunches! Oh yeah, well nobody MADE you dust the baseboards every day or go to PTA meetings three times a week, so that doesn’t count either!)

And I say this as somebody who ditched an assrag of a spouse and got financially jacked in the process. Marriage isn’t just the wedding, it’s an economic and legal package, and I don’t think we really want to open the can of worms of trying to turn divorce into a moral-shaming process for slimy exes.

Comment #106: mythago  on  09/02  at  03:10 PM

Actually, if I inherited my Great Uncle Lovecraft’s creepy mansion, I think I could find a much more…. convenient way to end the marriage. :D

Comment #107: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/02  at  03:20 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, I think you are a parent? And I know I am not, but I know that in my family’s case there were points at which the medical fallout of pregnancy was what decided who stayed home. It’s a tough situation. Honestly I don’t think “well, you knew the consequences when you (got married, had sex, continued a pregnancy)” can be a feminist argument if the consequences are almost always gendered female.

If you want a bring-it-in, take-it-out prenup, I support you, and I support it being respected legally, because you and your spouse both consented to that contract. I think more people need to think about and examine what they are consenting to, and that contracts should be personalized accordingly. But marriage is still, by default, usually the formation of an economic unit in which domestic labor is produced by one person and the other person sees professional advancement because of it. Amanda’s thrown around a lot of statistics that back this up. I am still down with the default divorce settlements recognizing this. If nothing else, at least no-fault divorce lets people realize their mistake early and fairly easily.

Comment #108: purpleshoes  on  09/02  at  03:33 PM

I’ve wracked my brain on how we could equitably protect the rights of women who have given up so much in life to play domestic goddess only to get fucked over in the end when he decides the hot young secretary is a much better lay

There is such a thing as an antenuptial, which spouses enter into after getting married.  Anyone, man or woman, who agrees to stay at home to take care of the kids should protect his/her ass with a legal agreement.  Of course, that isn’t “romantic,” so I imagine many people wouldn’t opt for it.  My own sister is a SAHM who has never insisted on legal protections.  I think she’s insane.

Comment #109: keshmeshi  on  09/02  at  03:41 PM

Reading though this thread made me think of 2 words:  Betty Broderick.  Hit teh Google if the reference is unfamiliar.

Comment #110: Ruviana  on  09/02  at  04:10 PM

90/91, what about instances where the other spouse was also working, just not saving? Do they still get a cut of your pension pie?

Why not?  If the marriage had continued until the pension started paying out, the pension payments would benefit the household.  Pension contributions during the marriage would be community property, so would be subject to division.

My advice:
(1) Don’t marry a deadbeat no matter how much you lurrve him or her.  See (4) below.
(2) If you don’t like community property and equitable division, do a pre-nup (or, for a more risky option each spouse keeps their assets separate and distinct (offer not valid in all states).  Alternatively, don’t get married and don’t intertwine your finances with your partners.
(3) If (2) seems to complicated or sophisticated to you, then you probably should not be getting married.  This is because you do not understand the legal terms attached to the arrangement.  You wouldn’t sign a contract you didn’t understand, would you?*
(4) Treat marriage as the economic relationship that it is.  Marriage is not just love, it is money as well.  DON’T MARRY JUST FOR LOVE (there, I said it).

* Actually we all do this, don’t we.  We agree to incomprehensible EULAs for software, and lets not even start talking about exotic mortgages and investment instruments.  Hell, I have an MA in Philosophy and a law degree from a top school and I can’t understand most insurance contracts (nor can the people who drafted them for that matter).

Comment #111: Richard Goblin  on  09/02  at  04:30 PM

There is such a thing as an antenuptial, which spouses enter into after getting married.

I wouldn’t bet the farm on that being legally enforced. Prenuptial agreements are a specific, narrow and very limited exception to the default rules about marriage and divorce (and they aren’t valid in all states, IIRC). And this makes a lot of sense when you take the possibility for coercion into account (“If you don’t agree to leave MY MONEY alone, bitch, I’ll divorce you and you’ll lose your immigration status”), not to mention the government having some interest in enforcing its laws instead of a patchwork of contracts.

Community property laws were developed precisely to protect the rights of the SAH wife whose husband runs off with his secretary; instead of it being “his money” because he has the paycheck and “his house” because his name’s on the deed, the law (broadly speaking) assumes the economic fruits of the marriage are shared 50/50. Does this suck if you have a spouse who sits on their ass all day? Yes, it does. The alternatives are to go back to the old, MRA-friendly way, or to ask divorce courts to micromanage who was ‘bad’ and ‘deserving’ in the marriage.

Comment #112: mythago  on  09/02  at  04:31 PM

There is such a thing as an antenuptial, which spouses enter into after getting married.

Depending on the state, you and your spouse can enter a post-nuptial agreement.  (BTW, ‘ante’ is Latin for ‘before’.  So an ante-nuptial agreement would be a pre-nup.  </pedantic Latin scholar>)  Requirements vary from state to state.

Comment #113: Richard Goblin  on  09/02  at  04:34 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, I think you are a parent? And I know I am not, but I know that in my family’s case there were points at which the medical fallout of pregnancy was what decided who stayed home.

Wherever did you get that notion? I’m one of the most strident of the child-free on these boards. Frankly, my solution, which is going to be about as popular as Richard Goblin’s “don’t marry for love” suggestion, is that people shouldn’t have kids, and if they do, they should still work and not give up their careers for kids, and that we shouldn’t have Stay At Home Parents beyond simple Family Medical Leave stuff. But I recognize that this isn’t how it works, that people have notions about the specialness of being isolated with their children in a house all day that I don’t have, just like someone else might have notions about the specialness of love that Goblin doesn’t have.

myth—I think part of the problem is that we used to have a very clear understanding of the marriage contract and would treat it like any other contract, but when we made failure of compliance (fidelity) something that could no longer be used as a means of suing someone for breach of contract (which would normally mean that they weren’t allowed their share of the goodies), for perfectly legitimate reasons, we really should have just done away with legal marriage. But we can’t do that, because people want to get married. So we’re stuck in this place where it just sucks all around. Unless you’re a deadbeat. Then it fucking ROCKS.

Comment #114: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/02  at  04:52 PM

Actually, if I inherited my Great Uncle Lovecraft’s creepy mansion, I think I could find a much more…. convenient way to end the marriage. :D

Remember, kiddies - arsenic is more certain, but a shoggoth will never be bought up in evidence in court.

Comment #115: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/02  at  04:57 PM

“But I recognize that this isn’t how it works, that people have notions about the specialness of being isolated with their children in a house all day that I don’t have”

I don’t know that it’s necessarily the specialness of being isolated (most SAHPs tend to be running errands and doing playdates and so forth as well as taking care of the house) so much as the unwillingness of current capitalist paradigms to budge a fucking inch on the fact that small children don’t generally mesh well with a rigidly enforced 9-5 (or 6, or 7) schedule.  Primary caretakers are forced out as much as they opt out in a lot of professions.

Comment #116: preying mantis  on  09/02  at  05:14 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, ah, that contextualizes. I think you must have come across as unclueless on a previous thread about children; honestly, I tend to make assumptions based on who seems to have ever met a child before. In this case, though, I am feeling more perplexed. Childcare for an infant in my state is about twice the cost of tuition and fees for in-state college; childcare for toddlers and older children is about half again as expensive as college. FMLA covers about 60% of women and only provides for 12 weeks of unpaid leave total during and after pregnancy, which for a lot of people is barely more than full physical recovery. There are some serious short-and mid-term incentives to take a work interruption that have nothing to do with sentiment, even before we get to social pressures and the numbers of women who start out in pink-collar jobs even before they reproduce and are taking work interruptions because diapers are still less soul-crushing then bedpans or alphabetizing.

To me, “choose not to have children if you don’t want to deal with the consequences” comes off as as sexist as “choose not to have sex if you don’t want to get pregnant” - yes, sure, fine, but only half of the people who choose to have sex / wind up having children are going to be dealing with those consequences, so how can it not be sexist?

Of course, we could have a full year of paid parental leave and heavily-subsidized childcare, like plenty of other countries, and I don’t want to lump you in with other strident child-free people I’ve spoken to and assume you’d be against those entitlements.

Comment #117: purpleshoes  on  09/02  at  05:53 PM

Preying—it may be that you can fill a 40 hour week running errands and arranging playdates and taking care of the house (in a way that isn’t you inside of the house…. trying to figure out how that works), but the rhetorical point that the stay at home parents I know is that they’re taking care of their children and doing the most gosh-darn important work in the world and not paying someone else to raise their kids.  Of the stay at home moms I know, there’s a lot of “busy work” they give themselves so as not to go completely bonkers because they’re so fucking isolated at home with a baby all day. Obviously, people find something fulfilling about it or we would have given that shit up in less than a generation. I just don’t get it. Because I don’t want kids and being stuck at home with one all day would be like my own little circle of hell.

But for women who do want kids, I think you find a way of mixing work life and family life. My sister knew pretty much right out of the gate that her life goal was to have a family. She didn’t marry out of high school, but when she went to college, she looked into work that would be generally flexible and not make crazy demands on her time. So she got a job as an orthodontist’s assistant, and she’s been doing that for over a decade now. Flexible hours (I think when her kids were little she had something like 30 hour weeks max) She’s a senior member of the office staff. She was even able to support her family for a year when her husband got laid off. No, she wasn’t climbing the corporate ladder, but she had exactly what she wanted: a family and a job. Working class women do this all the time. I never hear her complain about either. Listening to my stay-at-home friends bitch about how hard their life is all the time could fill a fucking volume.

If she had gone to med school and done her residency and then decided that she wanted to be a mom, which happens, her options aren’t “never work again” or “don’t have kids.” People make it work. No, she might not be an Emergency Room Surgeon, but she could still practice medicine in a doctor’s office or doing elective surgeries.

Purple: Don’t assume. It makes an ass out of you and me.

Comment #118: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/02  at  05:57 PM

Actually, if I inherited my Great Uncle Lovecraft’s creepy mansion, I think I could find a much more…. convenient way to end the marriage.

described, of course, with at least 10,000 synonyms for “bad” and “ugly” with lots of British spelling

Comment #119: Tropes on the Run  on  09/02  at  06:11 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, I personally am super proud of not treating you as a straw childfree, which, given how incensed I get at rights being conditional on reproduction, is practically spiritual growth. I am sure it is not lost on you that men don’t have to start planning whether they want to have children freshmen year of college; I, on the other hand, sure did start worrying about it when I was seventeen, and I’m pretty effing bitter about it. If feminism can only extend equal rights and opportunities between men regardless of sexual or reproductive behavior and women who never have sex or never have children, it’s not doing its job.

(I promise you that I know many, many working mothers who complain bitterly about how much their situation sucks, so we may be working from different samples. Most of them would rather not stay home, mind - they’d just rather not be stuck in the same job for the rest of their lives because it’s apparently impossible to promote an office worker who sometimes has to go deal with someone else’s flu, and they’re bitter about working forty hours a week at work and then forty hours more at home. Some of them are also bitter about going back to work while leaking bodily fluids, what can I say. I want to note that I’m not particularly up in arms about full-time, lifelong stay-at-home parents - I feel like that population is small and affluent, very religious, or both. What concerns me are all the women who are taking six months to three years off for each child, and returning to Mommy Jobs. The economic hit from a work interruption of that type is really hard to shake off.)

Comment #120: purpleshoes  on  09/02  at  06:38 PM

So, what happens if you want children, and a job that isn’t one of those on the short list of “easy flexible jobs to raise children while having”?

I suppose, if you’re a woman, you just gotta choose?  I think that’s bs.

Comment #121: Ismone  on  09/02  at  07:54 PM

MP - yes, we used to have a very clear understanding of what marriage meant, and no, we didn’t treat it like “any other contract”. For one thing, contract law generally assumes that the parties to the contract have equal standing, unlike marriage, which traditionally assumed that a marriage made a woman pretty much her husband’s property. And “any other contract” doesn’t require the parties to prove one of them was a very bad person to end the contract.

And you know I adore you, but you seem utterly clueless about the way that women are expected to juggle work and family obligations in a way men aren’t.

Comment #122: mythago  on  09/02  at  08:10 PM

Community property laws were developed precisely to protect the rights of the SAH wife whose husband runs off with his secretary; instead of it being “his money” because he has the paycheck and “his house” because his name’s on the deed, the law (broadly speaking) assumes the economic fruits of the marriage are shared 50/50.

I recalled reading that community property laws were mainly an artifact of Spanish-Mexican property laws in the Western/Southwestern states before they were taken over after the Mexican-American war.  Consequently, I think they predate the concerns and reasoning you cited by a century.

Comment #123: exholt  on  09/02  at  09:24 PM

If you’re a woman or a man, you gotta choose. Men have gotten by for centuries on the idea that women will always be there to pick up the slack, and women are trained to do so. So we do. And we have these romantic, soft-focus notions of stay-at-home motherhood as being nothing but morning-sunlight cuddles on the windowseat with a freshly cleaned baby. Even this day and age, we are the ones to suggest staying at home with the kids because it’s such a powerful narrative. But if things suddenly changed for my husband and I, and we had kids and one of us decided that we had to dedicate 100% of our time to the child for the first several years of his or her life, there are two options presented us, given that I make twice as much as he does:

1) He can stay at home and raise the kids, or
2) He can give up the career he wants (teaching) and use his math degree to bring in enough money to make up the difference (and then some—kids are expensive) and become an actuary so that I can be a stay-at-home mom.

But the thing is, I don’t want to be a stay at home mom, even though I currently work from home. Even in the alternate universe where I suddenly wanted kids, I would still want daily adult stimulation and interaction. It would be hard enough to give up things like going out to movies, and reading books, and all the other things that my parenting friends have to give up because they’re always too tired and broke to do the things they used to love to do. But if you told me that I couldn’t get the sort of intellectual stimulation my job gives me every day and instead I have to change diapers and powder bottoms, I would go insane.* And for some reason, this romanticized mommy narrative means its taboo for a woman to even admit that she has those desires. So it would be pretty obvious in our situation that if children were in the mix, my husband would be the primary caretaker, not me. And while he’s can be pretty traditional with regard to sentimental bullshit, there’s no way I would budge on this one.

I look at women making the Stay At Home sacrifice the same way I look at women who wear lipstick, or pantyhose or heels, with the possible exception that they get slightly more actual personal fulfillment out of it ... but it’s still caving to societal pressure and being just another raindrop in a flood. My mom worked, my sister works, and my sister-in-law works. And they all have found a way to make it work for them with varying degrees of spousal/familial support and income (none of it a lot).

* OK, my main job is running a fetish club from my basement…. where my primary job function is changing diapers and powdering bottoms. But I digress.

Comment #124: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/02  at  09:40 PM

@Mighty Ponygirl

My (single) mom made it work too.  She worked and raised two children by 1) having tons of support from her parents and 2) taking a job she hated (and still hates because she had no other options by the time it was possibly for her to explore those options).  She couldn’t return to the career she had prior to having children because the company changed between her first maternity leave for me (which was extended because of the benefits for doing so at the time) and the birth of her second child which was almost immediately followed by divorce.  She was a SAHM for a little less than three years and it pretty much fucked up the rest of her life.

She spent as much time with my sister and I as she possibly could and would have been a SAHM if she could have afforded to do so.  She hated her job, but loved being a parent.  Maybe that would have been different if she could have gone into a job she liked, but when my father left that stopped being an option for her. 

The only reason that my mother was able to be slightly picky about her job (and get one that didn’t require full-time daycare for my sister and I) was that my father died and we got SS death benefits.  That isn’t an option for a lot of women, though, since convenient deaths are rather rare.  (Of course, had full-time daycare been a requirement, it is probable that she wouldn’t have been able to make enough money to afford it on her own.)

It is sometimes impossible to know what life will throw at you, and while your family has been able to make it work, not all families can do that.  My mom made it work, but is now facing retirement with very little savings.  Continuing her job has also become a lot harder for her because her two pregnancies eventually led or contributed to the need for a hysterectomy a couple of years ago.

Comment #125: Atheist, A Feminist  on  09/02  at  10:02 PM

exholt, the wikipedia article I assume you’re referencing is not exactly super accurate on how US divorce laws came to be. “Other cultures have these laws” != “why we changed our own laws.”

MP @124: I know you are a feminist. So it baffles me that you keep missing the point here.

As purpleshoes has repeatedly pointed out, women of all classes and walks of life are stuck with the reality that they will be expected to take on the primary burden of household management and childrearing regardless of what else they do, a choice men do not, generally speaking, have to face.  This is not because women are all stupid cows who think childrearing is all puppies and rainbows and they arm-twist their men into going along.

And it is not feminism to say that women can have all the rights men do, as long as they keep their legs shut and don’t pop out crotchfruit.

Comment #126: mythago  on  09/02  at  10:12 PM

Thank you, mythago, that was the point I was trying to make.  And hahaha re: crotchfruit.

Comment #127: Ismone  on  09/02  at  10:25 PM

reading that community property laws were mainly an artifact of Spanish-Mexican property laws in the Western/Southwestern states before they were taken over after the Mexican-American war.

They are also present in states that used to be under French rule as well, it’s from laws was formed in part by the influence of ancient Roman Law:

Community property is a marital property regime that originated in civil law jurisdictions and is now also found in some common law jurisdictions. The states of the United States that recognize community property are primarily in the West and acquired this body of law from the law of Mexico, which was derived from Spanish law (a Roman-derived civil law system) and ultimately from the Arabs and the Visigoths.[1] (Louisiana, however, traces its system through French civil code to Roman law.

...........................

It is extremely important to bear in mind that there are no two community property states with exactly the same laws on the subject. The statutes or judicial decisions in one state may be completely opposite to those of another state on a particular legal issue. For example, in some community property states (so-called “American Rule” states), income from separate property is also separate. In others (so-called “Civil Law” states), the income from separate property is community property. The right of a creditor to reach community property in satisfaction of a debt or other obligation incurred by one or both of the spouses also varies from state to state.

For example, here in CA, inherited property isn’t considered community property unless it’s co-mingled with the spouses’ property.

Comment #128: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/02  at  10:59 PM

While we’re dissing SAH parents here, I’d like to point out that our society is also very thoroughly set up so that if someone doesn’t want to (or doesn’t immediately have the money to) have their kids taken care of by other people, there are way few options other than physically staying at home. Sure, there are playgrounds in some neighborhoods, and some public libraries have children’s rooms, and some government or charitable organizations run playgroups a few hours a week. But mostly SAH means isolated unless you work very hard (on top of the taking care of the kid thing) to make it otherwise.

That’s something that could be fairly inexpensive to change if we as a society worked on it, and the advantage would accrue to working-for-salary parents as well.

Comment #129: paul  on  09/02  at  11:02 PM

exholt, the wikipedia article I assume you’re referencing is not exactly super accurate on how US divorce laws came to be. “Other cultures have these laws” != “why we changed our own laws.”

Actually, I gleaned that off a while ago from a friend’s business law textbook from one of his undergrad classes.  Had a paragraph discussing the differences between community property vs non-community property states, their origins, and how they pertain to business property, assets, and profits/income in the event of a divorce involving the owner(s).  Just remembered the origins part when you brought up how community property laws came into being.  According to that text…community property laws were a continuation of Spanish/Mexican legal practices regarding marital property. 

exholt @86 - it’s even more complicated than that when you start getting into the micro level. As Victoria said, the general idea is that when you get married, you are no longer an island. Marriage is not just “Whee, I get to call myself Mrs. Mighty Ponygirl!”, it’s an economic merger of sorts. So yes, even in a community-property state, that creepy old mansion you inherited from your Great-Uncle Lovecraft is yours and not your spouse’s - but if you start using your spouse’s salary to pay to renovate the mansion, you can turn it into community property. And don’t get me started on the rules about valuing businesses. (I, too, stay far away from practicing family law.)

That may be true of joint assets and what properties are pooled in voluntarily or by legal fiat.  However, there are many exceptions such as inheritable property and is far less cut & dry in a non-community property state when even some assets acquired after marriage can be retained by a spouse if it is in his/her name only. 

As for that friend, as a result of inheriting that condo they both lived in and maintaining it in her sole name, she was able to successfully prevent her deadbeat ex from demanding half of it as he felt he was entitled to by virtue of his being married to her and to evict him much more easily once the divorce was underway. 

Fortunately, in nearly all the divorces I’ve seen among friends and acquaintances, none have had children during the marriages up to the time of divorce and the situations were either they both worked or that one spouse was the breadwinner and did all the housework while deadbeat/slacker spouse sat around excessively playing video/computer games, watching tv, hanging out with other deadbeat/slacker friends, getting into debt through ill-conceived purchases/gambling, etc. 

Hence in the cases I’ve seen where a deadbeat spouse was involved, I cannot conceive of how one can justify allowing them to take half of all marital assets…..especially when children weren’t even part of the picture and the marriages were all less than 7-10 years in length.

Comment #130: exholt  on  09/03  at  04:25 AM

Hey, paul at 129- that could also create jobs! You may be onto something.

Comment #131: shannon  on  09/03  at  07:21 AM

exhold,

One justifies it by the fact that the non deadbeat spouse gave half of all marital assets to the deadbeat spouse.  A mistake.  We all make ones.  After the divorce the non deadbeat will once again own everything she brings in.  But the non deadbeat did it , declared half of everything the other persons.  (Except for inheritance etc.).

My vows literally had the line “and with all my wordly good I thee endow” just so that there is no confusion.  I can’t in three years declare I didn’t mean it, it was a legal contract deliberately entered into.  It wasn’t conditional on his contributions in any way.  Except that deadbeats are no fun to have as partners and will often eventually lead to separations.

Comment #132: Victoria  on  09/03  at  11:26 AM

My mom didn’t have a support network. My father sure as hell wasn’t going to raise the kids, both grandparents lived far away and couldn’t take us, and with her teacher’s salary she wasn’t exactly in private nanny territory. There were women who ran small-batch daycare facilities and I spent time in a number of these. They still exists. Some parent friends of mine use one.

My thing is that I feel that everyone should have the ability to take charge of their own financial destiny, and I recognize that there are problems in the system that make this impossible, but it doesn’t change the goal that everyone should be able to be able to support themselves. This means things like: Longer paid maternity / fmla time off, living wage minimum wage, and things like flex and comp time.

Comment #133: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/03  at  12:10 PM

One justifies it by the fact that the non deadbeat spouse gave half of all marital assets to the deadbeat spouse.  A mistake.  We all make ones.  After the divorce the non deadbeat will once again own everything she brings in.  But the non deadbeat did it , declared half of everything the other persons.  (Except for inheritance etc.).

If a marriage is supposed to be an economic/business merger as some commenters have mentioned, then why should there be no conditions/expectations on gaining half the shared assets of the merger if one is the sole contributor and the other a deadbeat assuming children aren’t in the picture and the marriage lasted less than 7-10 years?

Unless I am mistaken, this type of unconditional assumption that each economic/business partner is automatically presumed to be entitled to half the assets would never fly in any other form of economic/business merger/partnership.  If anything, most such mergers/partnerships have specific conditions that if one of the partners is a deadbeat/slacker, that is sufficient grounds for kicking him/her out of the partnership/dissolving the partnership with the deadbeat/slacker getting only whatever proportion s(he) contributed to said partnership. 

Also, Victoria, those were not the vows I recalled hearing at the various weddings I’ve been to…both religious and secular.  In fact, there was no mentionings of anything about material property beyond the promise that both partners were expected to contribute to the marriage and all the responsibilities that it entailed.  What I took from that was that there was an implicit condition that both partners have an equal share in the partnership on the condition they both continued to maintain equitable contributions to the marriage in the form of finances and housework.

Comment #134: exholt  on  09/03  at  01:35 PM

exholt @130: yes, there are exceptions to the what’s-yours-is-mine rule. They are exceptions.

Setting aside the fact that not all (or perhaps even most) divorces are of the young childless slacker-vs-breadwinner type you describe, what’s the alternative? To have a judge sift through all the details of the marriage, and force the breadwinner to prove that the slacker did not contribute to the marriage, all the while the slacker is insisting that the breadwinner ignored his valuable contributions. Do you really there is any value in this model? If so, you might want to think about how that plays out in other marriages where “sat around playing Xbox” is not the worst behavior in the marriage.

MP @133: you’re coming across very strongly as “but other than THAT, Mrs. Lincoln, shouldn’t you have been able to enjoy the play?” Those ‘problems in the system’ you are eager to skip past are institutionalized sexism. Longer maternity leave and comp time are very nice, but it’s not equality if only women are supposed to use them.

Comment #135: mythago  on  09/03  at  02:42 PM

All these comments about marriage and assets, and I’m having trouble relating because what we have is DEBT, not money.

Credit cards, banks, and even credit unions all believe that a marriage license entitles them to two incomes to garnish from.  It will be ten years before I can breathe easier not worrying that if somethings happens to me my wife will be screwed out of a future by having to pay two people’s debts on only one income.

Comment #136: boring old dude  on  09/03  at  02:53 PM

@mythago

To have a judge sift through all the details of the marriage, and force the breadwinner to prove that the slacker did not contribute to the marriage, all the while the slacker is insisting that the breadwinner ignored his valuable contributions. Do you really there is any value in this model? If so, you might want to think about how that plays out in other marriages where “sat around playing Xbox” is not the worst behavior in the marriage.

Now, I should get out of the way that I never, ever, ever want to get married myself, but the thing that confuses me about the “deadbeat should get nothing” narrative is that marriage is supposed to include emotional support.  I suppose it is pretty easy to declare that breadwinner/non-deadbeat didn’t feel emotionally supported, but it would be pretty impossible to prove that the deadbeat was not providing any.  Deadbeat may just have been providing the wrong kind of support for the breadwinner/non-deadbeat.  It is hard for me to understand how a marriage ending for non-comparability should result in a greater distribution of assets to whichever partner we as a society decides has the most sensible needs that the deadbeat of course should have known how and when to meet.

Comment #137: Atheist, A Feminist  on  09/03  at  05:35 PM

exholt, you are mixing up different commentators.  Marriage isn’t like any other business transaction for various reasons, one of those reasons is that if it was it would never make sense to marry someone who wasn’t almost perfectly equal in finances, potential etc.  Most people get married because they love each other and because of that want to financially merge.  That doesn’t mean the reasons for that financial merger are cold or make sense to be analyzed in financial terms.  And in other financial mergers the only conditions that can be used to modify the merger are conditions that were an explicit part of the original merger and memorialized in written form.  Since I’ve never seen “both continue to maintain equitable contributions” in either vows or pre nups - I don’t know what you are talking about.  I don’t know if I’m having difficulty explaining this or you understanding this but you really don’t seem to be getting this. 

I never implied most vows have that line about wordly goods - I said that mine did because I spent a lot of time thinking about what marriage is and means and because I really bone deep wanted that line, if I didn’t have a very real desire to give him everything I own I wouldn’t have married him.  Most vows imply that line by the fact of getting legally married.

“both continued to maintain equitable contributions to the marriage in the form of finances and housework”
Makes less than zero sense - it is ambiguous - it is inconsistent with the legal obligation of marriage - it is inconsistent with my experience on loving relationships and any relationships. 

What you give in a marriage is legally unconditional.  If you don’t like how the partnership shakes out you negotiate etc. and leave if you don’t like it.

Comment #138: Victoria  on  09/03  at  05:43 PM

AAF @137, I think where people are getting hung up is this: we’ve moved away from the idea that if one partner is the breadwinner and the other partner is at home taking care of their children and household duties, that the money “belongs” to the breadwinner. Both parties are making an economic contribution; the fact that one of them does so in terms of labor and enabling the other’s income earning is recognized. So some folks seem to be extrapolating to that and saying, okay then, if the at-home partner isn’t working their butt off, they don’t deserve anything.

That goes right back to the problem of fault-based divorce we’ve all been talking about. Marriage is an economic union (though not, as Victoria points out, a business). If you don’t like the way the workload is split, you have the right to end it. What you don’t, and shouldn’t, have the right to do is to make a condition of the divorce having the judge pick apart each partner’s financial or in-kind economic contribution, and then handing out possessions to those who “earned” them.

Comment #139: mythago  on  09/03  at  06:55 PM

That goes right back to the problem of fault-based divorce we’ve all been talking about. Marriage is an economic union (though not, as Victoria points out, a business). If you don’t like the way the workload is split, you have the right to end it. What you don’t, and shouldn’t, have the right to do is to make a condition of the divorce having the judge pick apart each partner’s financial or in-kind economic contribution, and then handing out possessions to those who “earned” them.

So the takeaway from all of this is if you’re uncomfortable with the fact you may not always be able to see someone’s pathologies/issues ahead of time* whether it is being a slacker/deadbeat upon marriage and/or a serious gambling addiction which sometimes only shows up several years after the start of the marriage, you’re screwed if you’re the one who ends up being the breadwinner and doing all the housework??


* Assuming of course, one is not a mind-reader/clairvoyant…..especially when people can and do change over the course of months…not to say years.

Comment #140: exholt  on  09/03  at  07:40 PM

The takeaway from all this is that if you get fed up with a slacker/deadbeat/addict and want to cut your life loose from them, you don’t have to persuade a judge that you deserve a divorce and that you were the good spouse, not the bad one.

Another takeaway is that if you find out your spouse is a controlling asshole who expects you to be a domestic slave, you don’t have to provide written documentation that you did 80+ hours a week of housework and childcare, rather than sitting on your ass eating bonbons, to get a fair share of the paycheck that your labor helped your soon-to-be-ex earned.

Do you really think your friends would have been better off trying to push a lawsuit where they had to provide documentary evidence of what slackers their exes were?

Comment #141: mythago  on  09/03  at  07:53 PM

@exholt

I think the takeaway is that if you are uncomfortable with the fact that you can never know how much you or your partner might change in the future (for better or for worse) and you do not want to accept the consequences of entering into an economic union with an uncertain future, then marriage may not be the best choice for you.

Comment #142: Atheist, A Feminist  on  09/03  at  07:54 PM

Do you really think your friends would have been better off trying to push a lawsuit where they had to provide documentary evidence of what slackers their exes were?

With a few exceptions, the vast majority had to prove some fault as they were divorcing in NY state which until recently had no no-fault divorce. 

Some did file those very lawsuits because the other spouse’s behavior was egregious(i.e. gambling addictions) and as a result…ended up getting more than half the marital assets.  Then again, it did take several months to a couple of years to get their cases resolved.

Comment #143: exholt  on  09/03  at  07:58 PM

Then again, it did take several months to a couple of years to get their cases resolved.

Gee, I’m sure that was no big deal and totally didn’t cost any time or money.

Comment #144: mythago  on  09/03  at  11:09 PM

Gee, I’m sure that was no big deal and totally didn’t cost any time or money.

Not saying it was no big deal….but at the time…it was either file the suit and go through the lengthy process…..or allow the slacker/deadbeat spouse to not only have half the marital assets…but the fear of being potentially stuck for half of his substantial gambling/other debts he incurred for his own sole benefit as he kept claiming they were all “for the benefit of the couple”.

Comment #145: exholt  on  09/03  at  11:25 PM

exholt, I do know of a case where a divorce was refused because in the words of the judge in the case, “Marriage isn’t a meal ticket”.

Back story:  I had a great-uncle who got married and after his honeymoon, he went out for a weekend of killing some of Gods’ feathered creatures(hunting) with some of his brothers.

When he got back he found the locks changed, and that his wife wanted to divorce him.

When they were in court, the judge noted that she was asking for alimony, but because of the short length of the marriage, she wouldn’t get that much, so the judge said what he said, refused to grant the divorce, so they reconciled and stayed together since then.

I should mention that this took place in CA, and the woman in question came from NYC so perhaps her understanding of divorce laws here wasn’t very good in the first place….......

Comment #146: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/04  at  11:24 AM

When they were in court, the judge noted that she was asking for alimony, but because of the short length of the marriage, she wouldn’t get that much, so the judge said what he said, refused to grant the divorce, so they reconciled and stayed together since then.

Was involved in assisting another friend in her divorce from someone.  Fortunately in their case…other than arguing over the semantics, it was agreed that both parties took what they brought into the short marriage (less than 4 years). 

That case took place in NYC and though both agreed to the divorce and on the vast majority of points, they ended up having to cite not having conjugal relations for 1+ years as a “reason” for their divorce as NY didn’t have no-fault divorce back then.  Heard from her attorney who was working pro-bono on her case that that was one of the most commonly cited “fault” for the divorce in his experience.

Comment #147: exholt  on  09/04  at  01:22 PM

exholt @145: no-fault doesn’t mean that you are automatically stuck with the other spouse’s individual debts. It does mean that you can get a divorce without having to prove that you ‘earned’ the right to do so and that you, not the slacker, are the good guy.

If you don’t like the idea that your assets are shared, do not get married. This isn’t about being psychic. It’s about realizing that marriage is not just the government being special to you because you’re in Twu Wuv.

Comment #148: mythago  on  09/04  at  02:27 PM

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