Swing voters are going to run screaming in horror from this.

So they’re pro-teenage pregnancy now?

Oh, Christ on a cracker. This is what’s going to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency?

It’s not just the pregnancy, it’s that she’s being married off to the baby’s father. At 17. Think about who you were sleeping with at 17 and imagine marrying them very, very publically. For your mother’s political career & beliefs. It’s horrifying, and the evangelicals are going to fucking love it.

Obama continues his streak as quite possibly the luckiest politician alive.

Exactly.  If anything, strong pro-choicers like myself will say, “Her body, her right.” Realistically, this sort of thing is inevitable if you treat comprehensive sexuality education like it’s toxic.  Realistically, most people don’t think it’s a good thing for teenage girls to have babies and get married. Most people would think it’s worse for a 17-year-old to get married and have a baby than have sex without “consequences”.  It’s unfair to the daughter, but this is going to confirm suspicions that Palin is an extreme right wing nut.

I honestly think this is going to take all the ugliness that sites like this have shined a small spotlight on over the last few years and shine a huge giant sun on it.

Also I am thinking more and more that Palin is going to pull her name out of contention for the VP slot before officially nominated.

Here’s the other thing, for better or worse: This is exactly the sort of news that gets remembered by low info voters.

Lucky for someone she’s five months along, not two or three or four.  With all of the attention this is going to bring onto Bristol, I hope for her sake she got the dates right.  Y’know?

I’d say Bristol Palin might vote Obama-Biden, but as you say...SHE’S TOO YOUNG TO VOTE.

Also I am thinking more and more that Palin is going to pull her name out of contention for the VP slot before officially nominated.

I don’t share that feeling, but I think it’s a win-win no matter what happens. If she pulls out, it adds to the sense that McCain’s campaign is in constant disarray and that he doesn’t know how to make informed decisions. If she doesn’t, well, she’s still the candidate, and represents, at best a quarter of the voting population, and they’re people who wouldn’t have voted for Obama anyway.

To be serious for a moment, did you know that McCain was a prisoner for five and a half years, and during that time he didn’t have access to birth control?  He didn’t have access to the pill, condoms, IUDs...he couldn’t even pull out reliably because his arms were broken.

I think the focus needs to stay not on Palin Is A Bad Mommy—because even the children of good parents can turn up pregnant—but the point that she wants this for every girl in America, not just her own daughters.  She wants every girl in America to be ignorant of how sex works and to be married off at 17 if it turns out their hormones are more powerful than being told baby Jeebus will cry if you think dirty thoughts.

Palin wants every parent in America to potentially be in the position she is right now.

I winced when I heard she’s getting married.  The phrase shotgun marriage comes to mind.  I also wonder how much pressure she got from her family to marry the guy.

Makes me shudder.  I’m sure I’m not the only one.

I winced when I heard she’s getting married.  The phrase shotgun marriage comes to mind.  I also wonder how much pressure she got from her family to marry the guy.

Makes me shudder.  I’m sure I’m not the only one.

Shotgun marriage if they’re lucky.  That lady likes uzis.

Can we all please stop and remember what it’s like to be seventeen for a minute? It wasn’t OK for John McCain to mock Chelsea Clinton. It’s still not OK when the shoe is on our collective foot.

McCain has lost the best weapon he had--making the election a referendum on Obama.

It is no longer about Obama. It isn’t even about Bush anymore. It’s about how horrible McCain’s judgement is. Way to go, Johnny Mac!

Did someone mock the girl?  I feel bad for her.  A victim, I suspect, of right wing nuttery.

I think 538 summed it up best:  Why is the McCain campaign leading an effort to juxtapose this with an “OMG SMEAR!!11!!” that they are in turn trying to juxtapose with Obama?

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/whats-wrong-with-this-sentence.html

I agree with the sentiment, Mnemosyne, and were this a rational electorate I’d support the tactic...but I believe that that argument best works on the already enlightened to a degree.  The 30%ers are more likely to be swayed by the bad parent argument.  Logic gets you nowhere with the sheeple.

I feel for her, particularly the fact that her pregnancy was announced to the world in a press release. At 17.  Yikes. 

I would like to point out that Palin emphasized that keeping the baby was her daughter’s choice which they supported wholeheartedly.  Choice?  That you would like to take away from every woman out there who finds herself in a similar situation?  Huh.

It’s less of a double-standard to say it’s her choice than it is damage control:  sure she got pregnant, but at least she’s pro-life, knowwhatimean?

A quote from a hyper-conservative facebook friend of mine kind of sums up how I think the average Joe-on-the-street will react;
I did hear about it. I do not think that it will or should be a problem. I am glad she is keeping the baby. I do think that it is disgusting that there are some liberal blogs out there trying to say that Palin’s down syndrome child was really her daughters. Oh yeah McCain knew before he picked Palin.

I see this news only helping McCain; liberals can’t really attack this issue too aggressively without looking like they are also attacking the poor, scared, seventeen-year-old girl.  The fact that he chose Palin in spite of the fact that he knew about the pregnant, underage teenager makes him look as if he is beyond just playing politics as usual.  No matter the issue, party hackery - on all sides - will ALWAYS trump everything else.
Of course if Chelsea got knocked up during Clinton’s run for office, the right would be all over him.

Has anyone else seen the Alaska Pro Choice page?  What is Sarah Palin doing in the picture?!

http://www.alaskaprochoice.org.

I think the arguments about bad parenting will be formed in the minds of people without a single liberal saying a word.  No need to get your hands dirty. Seriously, we have a great opportunity to rise above by saying it’s great that Bristol Palin had a choice, and so should every woman.

We are allowed to say “fuck” here, right?  After all, Marcotte was a major voice on the “Why We Say Fuck” panel at Netroots Nation?

So I will state bluntly that it’s none of the FUCKING business of anyone, including any blogger or reader here.  If you believe in sexual privacy, autonomy and freedom, you believe in it.  If you don’t, you publicize the extremely private details of a minor’s sex and relationship life, using the “it’s news” fig leaf.  This very story here perpetuates the violation.  It’s no defense that it’s good enough for Grandmaw, McCain or Drudge.

Is this going to play well with right wing fundamentalists?  Because Palin’s ability to advocate effectively for abstinence only education in the debates just disappeared.  And I think some extremists think that things like teen pregnancy don’t “happen” to people who were raised “right.” I agree that right wingers will like that the poor girl is marrying the father and going through with the pregnancy, but I’m not sure how they’ll view the pregnancy itself.

Jon, that’s coming from someone who was already voting McCain. We’re talking swing voters and reasonable people.  We’re not going to win over any hardcore misogynists.  That’s silly talk.  The people who love a pregnant teenage girl are already in the McCain camp.  Non-wingnuts who are considering voting Republican do NOT love the idea of girls having babies as young as possible.

Bruce, I do believe that Bristol Palin has every right to make her choices.  1000%.  She has a right to her autonomy.  It’s too bad there’s a whiff of coercion here with the insistence that she is so getting married.

Well, I just had my own focus group (if you will) with a female vaguely moderate Republican co-worker.

She is freaked out about the idea of shotgun marriage, which she finds backwards.  She thinks the kid should be put up for adoption.

Can we all please stop and remember what it’s like to be seventeen for a minute? It wasn’t OK for John McCain to mock Chelsea Clinton. It’s still not OK when the shoe is on our collective foot.

On behalf of all the 17 year olds who will be denied access to contraception and safe abortion if Bristol’s mom is elected, I say she can damn well suck it up and deal.

So I will state bluntly that it’s none of the FUCKING business of anyone, including any blogger or reader here.  If you believe in sexual privacy, autonomy and freedom, you believe in it.

So we’re not allowed to attack Palin’s abstinence-only stance because her daughter turned up pregnant?

I agree that we cannot attack Palin on a personal level—as I said, even the daughters of great parents sometimes turn up pregnant.  There’s only so much a parent can do.

However, I don’t think it’s beside the point to mention that Palin wants every girl in America to potentially be facing what her daughter is facing.  Does she think that every pregnant teenage girl should get married?  Does she think the government should help them complete their educations?  What if they don’t have the same strong family ties that Bristol Palin is lucky enough to have?

I’m sorry, but I’m not willing to declare Palin’s pro-life, pro-abstinence beliefs off-limits because her daughter is unfortunate enough to be pregnant.  That’s like saying we can never mention gun safety again because Dick Cheney shot his friend in the face.

Bruce, the McCain campaign “publicized” this.

And while it’s true that this is a family matter and that Bristol Palin should be afforded some privacy (the privacy that McCain’s party normally has no interest in allowing) I’ll just quote Atrios’ second headline on the issue: “But policy matters.”

Jon, that’s coming from someone who was already voting McCain. We’re talking swing voters and reasonable people.  We’re not going to win over any hardcore misogynists.  That’s silly talk.  The people who love a pregnant teenage girl are already in the McCain camp.  Non-wingnuts who are considering voting Republican do NOT love the idea of girls having babies as young as possible.
It’s not like the SoCons will suddenly turn around and start voting for Barak Obama, however how motivated the base is to Get out and Vote plays a big role in every election.  I think this will be something they’ll fall over themselves over, to play armchair political advisor.

Also what Mnemosyne said.

“This press release from the Palins that practically gushes over the beauty of having your first baby before you can vote will not go over well with those people, I’m thinking.”

Right, expressing joy at the propsect of grandchildren and the marriage of your daugther while stressing the difficulties she’ll face will just horrify your average American.

“Which is inconsistent with their policies.  If they wanted to be more honest, they’d say, ‘We told her if she even tried to get an abortion, we’d lock her up and throw away the key.  Because that’s what we want for you and all women.”’”

It’s not inconsistent. Gov. Palin’s daughter had a legal option to terminate the pregnany. She didn’t, and Gov. Palin didn’t terminate any of her pregnancies. It’s considerably more heroic to do the right thing when the wrong option is perfectly legal--and even laudatory, in some circles. That’s what they’re stressing. If she decided to abort the fetus, that would be inconsistent--so the McCain campaign made sure to emphasize her decision. That’s all.

I also have no idea how you guys know that Palin’s daugther didn’t have comprehensive sex ed. If the condom broke, would that mean comp. sex ed. is a failure? No, so what exactly is your point?

Last, you have all been upset about the treatment of Chelsea Clinton a few years back. What, exactly, makes it ok to pry into the life of Palin’s daughter and the personal circumstances of her pregnancy? Because Palin had the a audacity to run for VP, her daughter must be asking for it? How feminist.

The first redneck veep candidate fore WH. Real one, not one of those “Andover” redneck.  Palin prospect is getting worst and worst by day. All her past is getting her.

- abuse of power, fight with ex-in laws
- botched city investment (trying to buy land forcefully for a stadium)
- pregnancy
- daughter teenage pregnancy.

I for one think her hubby will get tangled up in small town corruption or two. Gotta be. Check that out. No way they don’t make money during the ride.

It’s weird. I had a dream last night where this girl’s pregnancy was announced in front of the swim team by her douchebag swim-coach dad.

And now this.

Dear Bristol Palin,

If you are reading this, two words: Legal Emancipation. Ask the Alaska Youth and Parent Association to help you:

http://www.aypf.ak.org/

Good luck.

P.S. Make sure to get your little sister a book that teachers her about contraception and how to get it, okay? Like, it doesn’t have to be all “Our Bodies, Ourselves”, but, like, one of those pamphlets they give students in schools where they actually teach sex ed.

Gov. Palin’s daughter had a legal option to terminate the pregnany.

BUT IF HER MOTHER IS ELECTED THAT OPTION WILL SOON NO LONGER BE LEGAL you dumb asshole.

If she decided to abort the fetus, that would be inconsistent--so the McCain campaign made sure to emphasize her decision. That’s all.

... a decision that they want to take away from people if their “pro life” policies are enacted.

... a decision that many more will have to make if Palin and McCain’s abstinence only “education” is enacted.

“Has anyone else seen the Alaska Pro Choice page?  What is Sarah Palin doing in the picture?!”

LOL!  You can be sure it won’t be there by tomorrow

And, oh yeah, Sarah Palin was thoroughly vetted!

“Last, you have all been upset about the treatment of Chelsea Clinton a few years back. What, exactly, makes it ok to pry into the life of Palin’s daughter and the personal circumstances of her pregnancy? Because Palin had the a audacity to run for VP, her daughter must be asking for it? How feminist.”

Erm, because instead of making jokes about how Chelsea is as ugly as a dog, we’re talking about how Palin’s political views have directly affected the life of her daughter, and how those beliefs could affect every young girl and woman in America.

Chelsea Clinton was probably smart enough to take the pill.

Good to see that there are so many new people here who are concerned about what we say.

I think the Palin family is doing more for the pro-choice crowd than any liberal could.  The family provides us TWO examples of why sex and reproductive education paired with readily available birth control is the way to go.  Gov. Palin should have known the risks with having a baby at her age and stress level.  The daughter should have had access to contraception.  This family and the pick of Palin to be the GOP VP was like taking a giant massive crap on all that right wing bullshit. 

We couldn’t have done a better job ourselves.

Bristol may not have been “coerced” into marrying, she might very much be in love with the father, or she might think they’re very much in love, which, when you’re 17 is pretty much a given.

My heart does go out to this young woman—while she’ll never face the poverty and social isolation that most teenage mothers face since her mom is so well-connected—I’m sure she’s really looking forward to being a mom and fulfilling all the expectations that they have of her. It’s too bad those expectations won’t mention 2 hours of sleep, tantrums, no social life, and no vacations.

I would prefer that any ads put out by the DNC not actually mention Bristol by name or association, but still raise this issue. Just have a tearful young woman telling her mom that she’s pregnant because she thought that you couldn’t get pregnant your first time, and then have the narrator say something to the effect of “Abstinence-only education doesn’t give our children the information they need to make responsible choices. And in the absence of real information, they’ll look for whatever answers sound the easiest. The McCain campaign supports abstinence-only education, as well as reproductive rights for women. This scene does not need to happen, but it will repeat itself countless times across America over the next four years if McCain’s policies keep our children in the dark.”

Spooky, that is a really fucking good point. I hope this episode changes some minds. If not on abortion, than at least on readily accessible contraception and sex ed (which would reduce the number of abortions).

Ew.  I agree with Ted? 

“Right, expressing joy at the propsect of grandchildren and the marriage of your daugther while stressing the difficulties she’ll face will just horrify your average American. “

Yeah, this.  As I said in the other thread, I have a huge family comprised of Christers, “swing voters,” and/or low information voters.  They will not see this as a bad thing.  Not at all.  They will see this as a young man doing what’s responsible, a young woman learning her lesson and making the selfless choice, and Palin being a wonderful mother to have taught her daughter such a moral lesson as not trying to run from the consequences of her actions. 

The Christers in my family will love seeing the oldest daughter never be able to follow in her mother’s admittedly powerful career path, that she’ll be slave to hearth and home and kids and that this will be the likely path the other girls in the family will take.  The “swing voters” in my family just won’t see this as a travesty.  The people who will see it that way are people who probably weren’t likely to vote for McCain either.  I mean, perhaps people like me who are voting Green will be horrified enough to vote for Obama instead, but, well, I’m still voting Green in spite of it myself so I doubt it.

And yeah, as I said in the other thread, Palin was never meant to appeal to women.  She appeals to men.

via CNN:

Sarah and Todd Palin issued a statement saying they are “proud of Bristol’s decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents.”

Uh, you’re proud of her decision?  You don’t think she should have had a decision to make. You think her decision should have been carry the pregnancy to term or risk an illegal abortion and jail time.  Just insane.

Last, you have all been upset about the treatment of Chelsea Clinton a few years back. What, exactly, makes it ok to pry into the life of Palin’s daughter and the personal circumstances of her pregnancy?

I missed the part where Chelsea Clinton’s parents took a strong political stand against ugly children, leaving themselves open for charges of hypocrisy the same way that Palin left herself open to charges of hypocrisy by supporting abstinence-only education.

Palin is demonstrating the effects of her own policies:  her 17-year-old daughter is dropping out of high school to get married and have a baby.  This is what she wants all Americans to get to experience, the joy of having your daughter get to experience early marriage and childbirth.  I know every parent in America wants their daughter to give up her ambitions for her future so she can end her education prematurely and dedicate her life to raising children with another teenager.  Because everyone knows that every 16- and 17-year-old is completely prepared to form lifelong relationships and raise children in a mature and rational way.

Maybe they’ll get Pat Buchanan to officiate the marriage and Lil’ Markie will do the music!

Obama continues his streak as quite possibly the luckiest politician alive.

Let’s hope it lasts.

Keep spinning, nuts.  Seriously, wingnuts like to claim to speak for the majority.  The majority does not want to see teenage girls having shotgun weddings.  For swing voters, it’s high right wing nuttery.  For elitist Republicans, it’s white trash.  Is that fair?  No.  Too bad for you that all that unfairness that you usually love in an electorate cuts both ways.

When a parent says they wouldn’t support abortion even if their daughter was raped, and said daughter becomes pregnant at 17, the parent’s statement that she is proud of their daughter’s decision to have her baby needs to be explored.

I think something along the lines of “Why do you support choice for your daughter, but not for me (and/or my daughter)” is the way to go.

Rachel II, Christers are not swing voters.  They’re Republicans.  We’re talking about people who are actually undecided.  There’s a difference between “not too bright” and “low information”.  A lot of not-too-bright people are solid Repubs.

it’s considerably more heroic to do the right thing when the wrong option is perfectly legal

The wrong thing?  Uh, there is nothing wrong about abortion.

Palin is seriously over. I just don’t see it.

And the real campaign brawl on issue hasn’t even began yet. Imagine she is asked about stem cell, oil drilling, woman’s right, health care, balance budget… (let’s skip foreign policy)

She will NOT be able to answer those question with straight face without people pointing out her Alaska record. 

She is over. She shouldn’t have passed the vetting process.

I would say they’re gonna put the Huckster on the ticket after this, but he believes in crazy stuff like raising taxes to have good schools and good roads.

OK, which liberal blogs were rumor-mongering?  I’ve read the blurb that they are going public b/c ‘liberal blogs’ where smearing it everywhere. 

I like to think I read some of the most liberal of blogs (though the orange one is too distracting).  Maybe I’ve just been out too much over the 3 day weekend, but who was blabbing it?

Or was that just a line?

Amanda, I put swing voters in the same category as God and terrorists, I guess.  I’ve never met a swing voter who didn’t vote Republican.  Plus, it seems to me that the default is to vote Republican.  If you don’t get enough information otherwise, you aren’t going to vote for the Democrat.

If she pulls out,

Are you serious?  God killed Onan for pulling out!  Conservatives would never!

OK, which liberal blogs were rumor-mongering?

The only person I’ve seen who is tasteless enough to be rumor-mongering about Palin’s youngest is Andrew Sullivan, who is many thing but certainly not a liberal.

She shouldn’t have passed the vetting process.

I don’t think she was.

I think McCain was told “no way” many many times.  Palin didn’t even know what a VP did a month or so ago, and was only interested in the position in as far as she could use it to help Alaska .

I don’t know that McCain is stuck with her, but jettisoning her at this point is very problematic.  They can use excuses of the pregnancy and the baby with DS and other ‘spend more time with family’ tropes, but if she was the best they could get, who will replace her?  What does that say of this ‘maverick’ choice if it doesn’t even last a fortnight?

This Palin thing may make me become an actual blogger.

1) this is a real litmus test for all the faux-gressives at KOS to check if they can actually make an argument w/o resorting to sexist tropes (c’mon fellas, give it a TRY):

2) How to use this in a good manner?  “Gov. Palin, you’re on record as supporting abstinence-only ‘education’-- do you know what the failure rate of that ‘education’ is, as determined by unplanned pregnancies?  Any personal experience along these lines?”

There was a high-profile diary at Daily Kos, the Huffington Post told them to STFU, Kleiman at Reality Based Community told Sully and Kossacks to STFU (without saying exactly what they were doing), and a bunch of commenters at Balloon Juice were trying to sell the story even after John told them to STFU.

But the rumours started in Alaska among the general public, including Republicans, months ago. This didn’t start with Obama, or all Obama supporters (a hell of a lot of them were unaware or joining the STFU chorus), but, of course, the story is going to be blamed on him. *sigh*

Can we all please stop and remember what it’s like to be seventeen for a minute? It wasn’t OK for John McCain to mock Chelsea Clinton. It’s still not OK when the shoe is on our collective foot.

It absolutely is okay because you know they would do the same to us if it were somebody in the Obama camp and more. If the tables were turned you know that this would be THE issue on which the whole campaign turned. They can bloody well suck it up and deal.

Oh, and Bob Barr supporter Jazz Shaw at The Moderate Voice was all over the baby switch story, too. Basically, anyone who let their prurient interests overwhelm their empathy and good judgment was smacking the keyboard on this one.

Jesus Christ, RK. Two wrongs make a right? Making some 17 year old kid miserable is OK because it might serve our purposes?

As I’ve said elsewhere, it’s not just morally horrible to drag a teenager into this, it’s political suicide. There’s no need to make Palin and her family into martyrs.

but if she was the best they could get, who will replace her?  What does that say of this ‘maverick’ choice if it doesn’t even last a fortnight?
Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes on 09/01 at 03:06 PM

On her daughter case alone… people will ask “aren’t you suppose to be next to your daughter helping her out in her complicated phase of her life?” 3-4 months from now she will have a baby, and her mom is 10,000 miles away from home doing transition office after high pace campaign?  Does she expect her daughter to figure everything on her own at 17?

so that’s a real “question of judgement” that any average voter with family will start asking. This on top of her own baby… etc.

On top of this, the usual liberal/Hillary crew were active on “against teen pregnancy”, parents have to be responsible - policy making in the 90’s ... Her action maybe cool in Alaska, but sure as hell won’t fly in most urban policy maker circle.

How is MacCainster mocking Chelsea Clinton appearance AT all analogous to taking Gov. Palin to the cleaners for promoting abstinence education that FAILED her daughter?  And we ARE assuming the daughter wasn’t planning on getting preggers, right?

If the Clintons had been pushing for universal plastic surgery, you MIGHT have a case, but as it is, you’re just a wingnut spinning.

++++
(BTW, people, I think in this case “keeping the kid” isn’t contrasted w/abortion, it’s contrasted with ADOPTION.  Some people don’t seem clear on that.)

As I’ve said elsewhere, it’s not just morally horrible to drag a teenager into this, it’s political suicide. There’s no need to make Palin and her family into martyrs.

Who is doing this? People are criticizing her mother, not her.

Yeah, I haven’t seen an ugly word anywhere against Bristol Palin. 17-year-olds get knocked up.  It happens.  It happens especially to those who have parents who refuse to educate them or help them access contraception.

In fairness to the assertion that AOE is the thing that failed Sarah’s daughter ... it might simply have been a leaky condom, skipped dose of the Pill, or the feeling that “just this once” wouldn’t make a difference.  Anything we can say about it would be speculation at best, but it does show that it can happen to anyone.

The point, however, remains that regardless of the cause of the pregnancy, this will happen with much greater frequency if AOE is promoted throughout this country.  Additionally, any illusion of “choice” about how to handle the pregnancy will be dispelled by the McCain - Palin “pro-life” agenda.

Andy, I can’t help but think that Bristol Palin might be just fine without her mother’s guidance.  Her mother has horrible judgment, and believes that women don’t have full rights.  Perhaps she’s a big hypocrite and can squelch some of her uglier views when it comes to her own daughter, though.

Have you seen this?

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=5701250

Seriously, wingnuts like to claim to speak for the majority.  The majority does not want to see teenage girls having shotgun weddings.

I think you’re right.  This will not go over well with undecided voters.  In fact, I saw a poll somewhere saying that roughly 30% of undecideds swung over to Obama when they heard the Palin VP news.  Also, something like 70% of all voters see Palin as a conservative.  This shotgun wedding news will not help in that regard.  Sure, McCain will pick up the kooky religious nuts (the base of the Repubs, to be sure) but he’ll lose the moderates.

My visceral reaction when hearing the pregnancy news was like “holy cow, she’s marrying her boyfriend at 17!” I remember having a boyfriend at 17 as well (hell, it wasn’t that long ago) and I cannot imagine what would have happened if I married that fool.  I’m sure moderate/undecided voters are thinking of that too.  And the whole “she’s pregnant....but, but, but she’s getting married!” bit strikes me as really socially backwards.

This is a plus for the hardcore base.  Don’t think for a moment that many of them don’t have or don’t know someone who has gotten pregnant out of wedlock.  For the base, the issue of “doing the right thing” is the important thing.  And it really just proves Palin’s parental creds as a contraception hater, doesn’t it?  Look, unless the father is a forty year old crack head the base will eat this up.

I don’t know about the middle.  Who really does?  I mean, one gets the impression that the middle, the swing voters as it were, as most affected by the last thing they before walking into the polling booth.  So saying what affect this will have on them is chancy, at best.

“Yeah, this.  As I said in the other thread, I have a huge family comprised of Christers, “swing voters,” and/or low information voters.  They will not see this as a bad thing.  Not at all.  They will see this as a young man doing what’s responsible, a young woman learning her lesson and making the selfless choice, and Palin being a wonderful mother to have taught her daughter such a moral lesson as not trying to run from the consequences of her actions. ”

One hopes they also enjoy the inevitable media photographs of the wedding, complete with Palin - a dewey-eyed, near-retarded Stepford Wife smile of fanaticism plastered on her vacuous face - aiming a shotgun squarely at the “responsible” young man’s shoulders as he sweats and twitches his way through his, of course, purely-voluntary marriage ceremony to the 17 year old twit he knocked up.

Well here is a real question:

with such complicated family life how is Palin going to prepare for high office? She herself has a baby.  Is she planning to hand everything into her nanny?  Or does she think veep job, with McCain two heartbeat away from dropping dead, is fun and game? (is she ready for that stupid 3 a.m phone call ad?)

Is she ready to lead the nation full focus is McCain dropping dead or incapacitated?

(This is skipping the entire issue, how she can credibly lead the nation fighting poverty in appalachia for eg. )

tho’ I for one think, this is only the tip of iceberg. Sooner or later we gonna start seeing real problems (corruption in small town. Ted steven etc. Everything that is typical of small town politics)

Additionally, any illusion of “choice” about how to handle the pregnancy will be dispelled by the McCain - Palin “pro-life” agenda.

Nuh-uh.  There will remain many, many choices regarding what do with an unwanted teenage pregnancy.  Let’s see, she could mysteriously go visit her cousins for a few months in some other state.  Or um, she could go to a private boarding school for awhile.  She could get on a bus to Canada or a plane to London.  She could put the baby up for adoption, perhaps unwillingly.  Or maybe she could have mono for 5 months?  She could have a shotgun wedding and gestate a healthy baby in only 7 months!  She could abort illegally in live in jail for a decade.  She could always kill herself, I suppose.  Or get beaten to death by her father.  Just as long as no one in her family has to feel public shame or talk about Teh Sehx, there are many options available in the Xtianist dystopia.

17 year old twit

I’m sure you thought you were being witty, but please do fuck off and don’t comment again until you actually read the thread and understand that we are not bashing Bristol here.

Here’s the salient point for me:  Palin and McCain did a press release praising the “choice” her daughter made without ever mentioning that choice is one that McCain and Palin expressly want to deny to every other American woman.

Either women’s uteruses—including Bristol Palin’s—are public property that can be regulated by the government, or they are each woman’s private property.  If McCain and Palin believed that women owned their own uteruses and that pregnancy is a private matter, then we would be horrible hypocrites right now.

But they don’t.  They think that the contents of every woman’s womb are public property.  If my womb’s contents are public property, so are Bristol Palin’s.  Insisting that the Palins have a private family matter to deal with but that my uterus should be open for public scrutiny is hypocrisy of the highest order.

I was talking about the first wave of rumours, that Bristol was the mother of Trig. I haven’t seen anyone here calling her names, obviously, but the insistence elsewhere that it was fair politics to run that set of rumours to the fucking ground, implicating the girl in the cover-up, was what offended me. A lot.

Now that her pregnancy is public knowledge, I still think that a bunch of bloggers choosing to comment on this, even with the best intentions in the word, is tricky. People will say what they want to say, but I’ve seen reasoned discussion of Sarah Palin’s poor judgment and hypocrisy spin off into jokes about “tramp stamp” tattoos both women may be sporting.

Now that her pregnancy is public knowledge, I still think that a bunch of bloggers choosing to comment on this, even with the best intentions in the word, is tricky. People will say what they want to say, but I’ve seen reasoned discussion of Sarah Palin’s poor judgment and hypocrisy spin off into jokes about “tramp stamp” tattoos both women may be sporting. 

But people aren’t commenting on her pregnancy itself, but on the hypocrisy of her mother, who is very much in the spotlight and fair game for criticism. Damned if we do, damned if we don’t…

Mnemosyne: But they don’t.  They think that the contents of every woman’s womb are public property.  If my womb’s contents are public property, so are Bristol Palin’s.  Insisting that the Palins have a private family matter to deal with but that my uterus should be open for public scrutiny is hypocrisy of the highest order.

But we believe that a uterus is a woman’s private property. And while Sarah Palin’s beliefs leave her open to public discussion of her own reproductive choices, this in no way applies to a minor child.

Or so we believe. Right?

Does anyone else find it weird that the McCain campaign felt the need to publicize this so loudly?

I mean, Palin was announced as the VP candidate a little more than 72 hours ago. Did the Republicans really need to put a teenage girl on blast because of anonymous Internet comments made over a holiday weekend?

Is this some kind of strategic gambit? Did they see a news cycle dominated by panty-sniffing stories about McCain’s running mate as more advantageous than a news cycle dominated by issues?

The whole thing seems really cynical to me.

Mnem, the “choice” of keeping the baby they’re talking about was probably between putting the baby up for adoption or raising it. THAT is what they see as a choice.

Before some of you are harsh towards others in this thread, here is a nice message from a big wingnut.

“Since the McCain campaign has released a statement declaring that 17-year-old Bristol Palin now faces “the responsibilities of adulthood,” might I be so bold as to suggest that they arrange a press conference where Bristol can attempt to address the horrible embarrassment she’s caused her parents?
Excuse my paternal (and political) indignation but I am in no mood for pleas that the media respect anyone’s privacy at this point. I don’t think it an exaggeration to say that this girl (and her boyfriend) have caused a crisis of global significance, and if her parents are serious about “the responsibilities of adulthood,” Bristol ought to face the consequences, including about 45 minutes in front of the klieg lights while reporters shout stupid questions.

It’s not Bristol’s fault her mother was picked as the GOP running mate, but she certainly should have understood how her personal behavior would reflect on her family.

Posted By: Robert Stacy McCain”

Posted at the American Spectator

“I was talking about the first wave of rumours, that Bristol was the mother of Trig. I haven’t seen anyone here calling her names, obviously, but the insistence elsewhere that it was fair politics to run that set of rumours to the fucking ground, implicating the girl in the cover-up, was what offended me. A lot.”

And yet, if this were a Democratic politician under discussion, the “Is It Her Baby Or Not?” story would have been trumpeted relentlessly from the rooftops by the usual mouthpieces of the far right, as well as their more “respectable” colleagues in the corporate media.

I’m not saying that’s right, but it would have happened. So we either sink to their scumbag level and fight fire with fire or we unilaterally disarm. Damned if we do/Damned if we don’t, just like Amanda in San Jose says above.

“The point, however, remains that regardless of the cause of the pregnancy, ...”

Well, Joshua, it’s like this: when a boy loves a girl very VERY much there’s a special thing they do together.....

Andy, I can’t help but think that Bristol Palin might be just fine without her mother’s guidance.  Her mother has horrible judgment, and believes that women don’t have full rights.  Perhaps she’s a big hypocrite and can squelch some of her uglier views when it comes to her own daughter, though.
Amanda Marcotte on 09/01 at 03:31 PM

There is feminism ideology, that woman can do everything alone. And that Mom can square everything between job and kids. But this is not just any job. It’s presidential office. There is reality that people want to know.  Running big family (with baby and pregnant teen) is no picnic. Running high office is not just to prove “women can do it alone”. It’s not a feminism show case. People are going to ask real question.  How will Palin square all that? (or maybe it is true, veep is not really a busy position)

Next, there is a reason why woman movement put priority on family planning, women’s education, providing means to support oneself… Nobody will believe Palin can credibly talk about lifting poverty in rural area, if her own attitude doesn’t reflect all the long term policy that needs to be implemented (teenage pregnancy, birth control, education, etc)

(BTW, people, I think in this case “keeping the kid” isn’t contrasted w/abortion, it’s contrasted with ADOPTION.  Some people don’t seem clear on that.)

I think you’re right in this case, but OTOH it is a rather small step from forced pregnancy to forced adoption, particularly for poor women.  I don’t see the anti-abortion lobby stopping if they ever did manage to overturn Roe vs. Wade, I think they would keep going for absolute state control over the outcome of pregnancies they deem undesirable.

the 17 year old twit he knocked up

So not cool.

Well, Joshua, it’s like this: when a boy loves a girl very VERY much there’s a special thing they do together.....

I believe “Chef” from South Park sang a song about this particular situation, when Cartman was trying to determine his paternity.

There was a high-profile diary at Daily Kos

If, by ‘high-profile’, you mean ‘never elevated to the front page and strongly criticized in comments’,

Funny how right-wing blogs and GOPeratives, with their love of unmoderated user-generated content, get confused about this.

The rumours were out within seconds of the announcement. They were pushed hard in general open comments sections (CNN, etc.) and by unknown people in blog comments. Plenty of people smelt a potential ratfuck and avoided the topic like the plague. Silly Sully dived in.

Jesurgislac, I think you’re insisting on a semantic impossibility.  Let’s imagine an ideal statement from a pro-choice group that I imagine we would both agree on:

“We here at Pro-Choice Group USA believe that every woman should be entrusted with the right to make her own reproductive choices, regardless of her age, race, religion, or class.  We trust women’s moral agency.  That includes the right to terminate a pregnancy if the woman so chooses, but it also includes many other options which we wholly support.  We also believe that all young women (and men) should received comprehensive sex and sexual health education in order to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.  Recently, it has come to public attention that Republican Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin opposes these freedoms and does not trust women with these decisions.  She also opposes comprehensive sex education in our schools.  Palin’s (and McCain’s) policies will do tremendous harm to our daughters, sisters, and partners.  Vote Obama/Biden in ‘08.”

Now in an ideal world, that would get reported and no one would ever use the name Bristol in that article.  I think that semantic bubble doesn’t exist and we shouldn’t pretend that it does.  To ignore the fact that as humans we will immediately jump to think about her family (don’t think of an elephant!) strikes me as specious.  It is rather more useful to be tasteful about it that to run from it.

Thank you Juan Stoppable. Now can someone answer his question?

Mnem, the “choice” of keeping the baby they’re talking about was probably between putting the baby up for adoption or raising it. THAT is what they see as a choice.

I realize that, but it’s worth pointing out that they’re the only ones who interpret “choice” that way.

Specifically this one:
“Did the Republicans really need to put a teenage girl on blast because of anonymous Internet comments made over a holiday weekend?”

I can’t imagine a better day to dump her than today.

If McCain choses to keep Palin he is going to be married to a corpse for the next two months.

But we believe that a uterus is a woman’s private property. And while Sarah Palin’s beliefs leave her open to public discussion of her own reproductive choices, this in no way applies to a minor child.

Please point out where I criticized Bristol Palin’s choice or said she had no right to make the choice that she did. 

Pointing out that she was allowed to make a choice when McCain and Palin would deny every other American woman the right to make a choice for themselves is not the same as saying Bristol Palin should not have been allowed to make a choice or that she made the wrong choice.

Bristol Palin’s mother is trumpeting that her daughter made a “choice” when Sarah Palin thinks that the opportunity to even make a choice should be denied to every other American woman.  Pointing out the hypocrisy of the mother is not critiquing the choice of the daughter.

Or are you arguing that I’m not even allowed to point out that a choice was made at all because Bristol is a minor?  I should just stay completely abstract and talk about how Palin is anti-choice without bringing up the fact that Palin is issuing press releases talking about the “choice” her daughter made?

Bristol Palin makes a choice.  So does her mother.  We should respect those choices (with some concern about coercion in the former case). 

Every woman should have a choice, too, to decide her reproductive life for herself.  That is the positive spin, and damn difficult for some to grasp and others to counter if done right.

Ben, he’s already said he sees in her a “partner” and a “soulmate.”

There was a high-profile diary at Daily Kos

If, by ‘high-profile’, you mean ‘never elevated to the front page and strongly criticized in comments’,

Yes, I was aware of that, but I also saw it linked to in several other blogs and it got a lot of attention at Digg (link and link). There’s also a huge amount of discussion at MetaFilter in the main Palin thread, plus several other threads that the mods nuked from orbit.

I didn’t mean to slam Kos, and I know that commenters there, as at many other blogs, were criticizing it, but that set of diaries did garner a lot of attention, even as a vocal subset of commenters decried it and even though it wasn’t put on the Kos front page.

But the media doesn’t do nuance, does it?

Anne-

I’m not saying he dumps her directly. I’m saying he comes out and says:

“My friends, I h ave very bad news. Sarah Palin has decided she has to spend more time with her family, my friends...balh blah liberal smear bloggers, my friends blah blah etc.

Well, Joshua, it’s like this: when a boy loves a girl very VERY much there’s a special thing they do together.....

“… and then, the man gives the woman fifty dollah ...”

I meant “regardless of the particular circumstances than resulted in an accidental pregnancy”, smartass .  I actually HAD sex ed, thank god.  For me, though, but the best form of birth control in high school was being such a dork that I had a better chance of getting hit by lightning than getting laid.

Wow.  Can’t proofread.

than = that

but

I can’t help but think that Bristol Palin might be just fine without her mother’s guidance.  Her mother has horrible judgment

Amen to that.  Gov. Palin flew across country and back while 8 months pregnant.  Only someone who is brain-dead and actively disregarding of her child’s safety would do that.

Sigh. This story is giving me a The Girls Who Went Away-vibe. I feel sorry for this girl and hope for the best for her sake. And yet still, to hell with her pro-Gilead mother. I think it’s possible to hold those sentiments at the same time. Keep after Gov. Palin for her politics, but leave the daughter alone. And someone was right...McBush’s VP pick really usurped Obama’s historic thunder. It’s not October yet, so WTF is with all of this coming out of the woodwork so soon?!

if my assumptions are correct, then the low information swing voters are probably the same people who had a fucking shitfit when jaimie lynn spears got pregnant, and in turn foamed at the mouth for the head of spears mother, for “allowing” jaimie lynn to get preggers.

my heart goes out to Bristol, hell, i think it would be fantastic if we as progressives could have our own version of operation rescue, where we save girls like Bristol from crazy families like the Palins. of course, that would be kidnapping, and a big no no, but i am in no way enjoying hearing about a child having her own child with another child.

i am enjoying watching the GOP shoot itself in the foot over and over and over again.

as to the question of marrying the boyfriend you had at 17, i actually probably would have been pretty happy had i married mine. unfortunately, he died at 22 from lymphoma after growing up right near an oil refinery.

but hey palin, mccain, drill! drill! drill! right?

Obama just now:

“Let me be a clear as possible: I have said before and I will repeat again, I think people’s families are off limits,” Obama said, “and people’s children are especially off limits.

“This shouldn’t be part of our politics,” he continued, “It has no relevance to Gov. Palin’s performance as governor, or her potential performance as a vice president.

“And so I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories,” he said. “You know my mother had me when she was 18, and how a family deals with issues and, you know, teenage children, that shouldn’t be the topic of our politics and I hope that anybody who is supporting me understands that’s off limits.”

I know in Petersburg Alaska, (my SO’s hometown) comprehensive sex-ed is mandated.  I’m pretty sure it is in the rest of the state.  On the other hand, teaching evolution is mandated as well and he had a biology teacher who flat-out refused to discuss those “lies” so the quality of Bristols sex-ed may not have been in line with state educational policies.  Besides, there is always the parental permission form, Palin may not have given her permission to attend (I spent my sex-ed lectures in the library doing research on zits).  I would bet that Bristol did NOT have the formal classroom Abstinence Only indoctrination that we’ve become so used to here in Texas.

Since we don’t have any CONCRETE proof that she had abstinence only “education” we probably shouldn’t apply it to her specific case. 

Anyway “This is due to AOE” talk smacks of “just punishment” as well.  I don’t like the undercurrent on this comment thread that this pregnancy is a punishment on Mama and Papa Palin for supporting AOE.

As a tangential but not insignificant issue, I am afraid that this may have reduced to near zero the chances that a question about abortion will be asked during the VP debate--Gwen Ifill (I believe she’s the moderator-to-be, yes?) will probably avoid the topic for fear of looking mean to poor Sarah.

Todd Palin has a DUI from 1986.  WTF.

“Todd Palin has a DUI from 1986.  WTF. ”

Let me be the first to type “BFD”.  Who cares?  He’s not the nominee.  Is he ADVOCATING drunk driving?

Shut it.

Joshua, “I meant “regardless of the particular circumstances than resulted in an accidental pregnancy”, we can be sure, whatever they were, whatever precautions were taken, the circumstances were NOT abstinent. 

Frankly, I >want< to rub the troglodytes’ noses in it:  “What makes you think YOU’RE a better parent than Sarah Palin?  What makes it so much more likely that Abstinence Only will work for your special snowflake?”

Dang, Joshua, forgot to add some smilies to that..... >;^)

Anyway “This is due to AOE” talk smacks of “just punishment” as well.  I don’t like the undercurrent on this comment thread that this pregnancy is a punishment on Mama and Papa Palin for supporting AOE.

Agreed.  As I’ve said a couple of times, even the most enlightened, progressive parents can have a daughter end up pregnant, so you can’t really draw a bright line between parenting philosophy and what happens to your children.

I will continue to point out that Palin and McCain talk about the “choice” her daughter made, but fail to mention that they want to remove even the possibility of making any other choice from every other American woman.  Choosing to keep the baby and marry your boyfriend is a completely valid choice, but it shouldn’t be the only option available.

OMG, Todd Palin had one DUI more than 20 years ago?  String him up!

Seriously, I rarely agree with Eric, but I echo his BFD.  Like any of us were immune from doing stupid things in our early 20s.

so you can’t really draw a bright line between parenting philosophy and what happens to your children.
Mnemosyne on 09/01 at 05:02 PM

Palin herself underlines her daughter choice in term of her political alignment.  (which is obviously a stupid thing to do, for reason you point above.)

But I think plenty more little things will come out, specially with regard to corruption.

Joshua, “I meant “regardless of the particular circumstances than resulted in an accidental pregnancy”, we can be sure, whatever they were, whatever precautions were taken, the circumstances were NOT abstinent. 

Oh, absolutely.  My point - and I don’t think I was clear the first time around - was that there was a possibility that Bristol and her peers may have had “normal” sex ed in the public school system, thus making her mother’s particular stance on the whole thing less relevant. 

To your point, though, the failure is still in the assumption that kids will remain abstinent just because you tell them to, regardless of their education on the topic.

“Seriously, I rarely agree with Eric, but I echo his BFD. ”

LOL.  The End Times are surely upon us.  >;^D

I am sure young Ms. Palin received very, very strong abstinence only education at church and at home.  An no birth control allowed, EVER!

Joshua, no kidding-- I think the best we could EVER hope for is that kids be CAUTIOUS (and well-informed), cuz they ain’t never gonna be abstinent.  Statistically speaking.

Everyone is blasting Palin’s"abstinence-only" stance and how that makes her a failure as a mom or something. Its such a rediculous argument. If we had proof that her daughter was not given any other Sex-ed and she still got pregnant then MAYBE you could say “well I guess it dont work”. But Its safe to say that she got the full condom work up at school. Right? I mean this sort of education clearly fails all the time.....I dont even know if there is a case study in abstinence-only to compare to traditional sex-ed. The comparison may be intersting. Its something I’d like to see. I think the main problem with kids having sex so young is the over-sexualizing of kids at such a young age. has anyone seen the NEW DEGRASSI show? It is aimed at the 13 yo segment...thay cover important issues as PENIS PUMPING....WTF. Ever walked by an Abercrombie store..you can practically see the guys cock, his pants are so low in the 6 ft high picture. Hey Im no prude...but these are kids....Why are we trying to sex them up so young....its a crime.

I am not dumping on the kid, but even more horrified and disgusted at the possible prospect of having an American Margaret Thatcher + female Commander of the Faithful of Gilead as President, should McCain be elected and anything go wrong with McCain’s ticker.

<i>But Its safe to say that she got the full condom work up at school. Right?<i>

Casp, I know you’re a troll but honestly I’m bored shitless and generally in a pissed off mood, so you’re getting a snack.

It’s common knowledge that most traditionally “red” states teach abstinence-only, NOT comprehensive sex ed.  Including Alaska, which AFAIK does in fact have state funding for abstinence only education.  At this point, no, you cannot just safely assume that a given high school student, outside maybe a major coastal city, is getting proper sex ed.  The federal government promotes abstinence only.  Many states do, as well.  You guys got your turn, and you’ve been proven pretty conclusively WRONG in study after study, not to mention data like rising rates of teen pregnancy, and even anecdata like the fucking fundy VP candidate’s daughter’s shotgun wedding at age 17.

YOU’RE WRONG.  Deal with it.

I’ll say one thing for McCain’s pick, it sure as hell is entertaining in a corny Lifetime afternoon movie way.

Everyone is blasting Palin’s"abstinence-only" stance and how that makes her a failure as a mom or something.

Casp, Bristol’s pregnancy does not make her mother a failure.  However, her assumption that kids will not have sex simply because they are told not to - especially by way of gross misinformation - is inherently flawed and dangerous.

“Why are we trying to sex them up so young?”

::looks askance::  To sell product, of course.  It’s good for business, or at least they think it is.  And business is what the Republicans are about, right?

Bill “Atlantic City” Bennett is losing it on CNN over this story.

Casp--there are studies.  Go to the Guttmacher Institute.  Read the Congress-commissioned study from two years ago.  There is a slight (but not statistically significant) difference in the age of first intercourse.  But kids with abstinence only education are *less* likely to use contraception and are less likely to have accurate information about reproduction and birth control.  You can’t ever draw conclusions from an n of 1 so the anecdata about Palin’s daughter is irrelevant.  However--her positions on reproductive choice and information are relevant.

Everyone is blasting Palin’s"abstinence-only" stance and how that makes her a failure as a mom or something.

If Palin told her children, say, the germ ‘theory’ was wrong, and that washing your hands does no good anyway, would that make her a failure as a mom?  ‘Cuz I’m told those abstinence only programs often deprecate the role of condoms in pregnancy prevention (and disease prevention).  Along with a lot of other mis/dis-information.

How wonderful.  Babymama finds willing groom for the right price (see Jamie lynn Spears).  And after proving her fecundity with a Down’s child.  Snark aside, Palin is so full of deceit that I find her to be totemic for the two-digit IQ wing of the Republican Party.

Todd got a DUI when you had to be so drunk the police stopped you under imminent threat to health and safety.  It is pertinent.  Methinks Todd is A$$holus maximus and Sarah is Entitledydon maximus bitchius. 

Hate to point it out to this blog but many KKKristians joined when they couldn’t party on or the age thing caught up with them.  Sort of like rock stars.  You get so old and then you’re a joke...or worse...pitied

Where the fuck did that post come from?

BTW, that guy who has been criticized here for the “17-year-old twit he knocked up” line also used “retarded” to describe Sarah Palin or how she looks. It’s not cool to use the word “retarded” as an insult, especially when you’re talking about someone with a kid who has Down syndrome. A little sensitivity, please. It’s akin to saying “That’s so gay” as an insult.

“I’ll say one thing for McCain’s pick, it sure as hell is entertaining in a corny Lifetime afternoon movie way.”

Yeah, talk about major drama! Her husband is an Eskimo, her son is going off to Iraq, her baby has Down Syndrome, and her teen-aged daughter has pulled a Jamie Lynn Spears!! What more could happen in this week’s exciting episode?

Wait, let me see… the younger daughter turns out to be a pot-head and a Satanist?

Yeah, Foucault, I’m hoping he keeps her just for the entertainment value.

This election has been so insane, unlike anything else.

Also, I third the comments about not insulting the daughter. Bristol is a victim here.

Best headline of the day:

“JUNO ALASKA”

Yeah, talk about major drama! Her husband is an Eskimo, her son is going off to Iraq, her baby has Down Syndrome, and her teen-aged daughter has pulled a Jamie Lynn Spears!! What more could happen in this week’s exciting episode?

Foucault on 09/01 at 05:58 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, it’s reported that she secured legal council today against possible abuse-of-power charges in the “Troopergate” scandal.

Word is that she could be facing indictment as early as next week.

“Word is that she could be facing indictment as early as next week. “

Link?

No, Casp, it’s not that easy.  You tell your kids that contraception is for horrible people and sluts, you have to own what happens if they believe you. If they’re smart and reject your bad advice, you got lucky.  Palin didn’t get so lucky.

A bit of a tangent but…

I remember when I was getting comprehensive sex education in school that parents had the option of excusing their children from sex ed classes. Is this still an option? Furthermore, if someone is in an abstinence-only district, are parents allowed to tell the district that they don’t want their child being exposed to a bunch of lying misogyny?

It seems to me that the majority of parents would want their child to be informed and know what their body was about, and have up to date sexual health information, and that fundie “jesus cries when you touch your naughty no-no place” groups have always had the option of saying “we’ll teach our child our values at home and we don’t want them learning what a condom is.”

Yes, I was aware of that, but I also saw it linked to in several other blogs and it got a lot of attention at Digg (link and link).

There was also a big iReport story pushing it—more or less the equivalent of a Kos diary, except hosted by, oh yeah, CN-bloody-N. And I assume that CNN has repeated the ‘liberal blogs’ BS all day…

There’s a host of ratfuckers pushing this one, anyway. I’d like to know if the IPs all point to Karl Rove HQ.

A lot of folks have been saying “Oh, she got sex education elsewhere… Blah blah… Not her mom’s fault… Bullshit… blah blah.”

It doesn’t matter what anyone else tells a lot kids, especially if they’re of the evangelical-mind control set.  Many kids <gasp> listen to their parents.  Many of those kids listen half-assedly.  If you say to your kid that birth control doesn’t work so you can’t have sex, all they may hear is “have sex, but don’t bother with a condom.” They could also, you know, get in the mood and not have access because their shit-for-brains parents wouldn’t teach them how to wrap it up or take ‘em to the OBGYN for birth control.  Aside from that, even the best sex ed programs require parental consent and not all health departments give free contraceptives without parental consent.  That said:  Yes, attacking the kid is wrong, but her mom’s idiocy and just outright wrongness are fair game.  Yes, kids do stupid-ass shit all the time and their parents’ can’t always be to blame, but it is a parents’ job to anticipate what their kids are going to do and provide them with the knowledge to be safe.  The best analogy is swimming, I think.  You can tell your kid to stay out of the damn pool.  You can even try to lock them out, but they’ll get into it somehow and you haven’t taught them how to swim, they will drown.  That’s why Gov. Palin is being attacked.  She likes pools and has them herself, but actively encourages and wants legislate teaching kids how to swim.  So to speak.

Palin lawyered up?  Want link?  Boom

http://www.adn.com/palin/story/512842.html

God. Can you imagine the outrage form wingnuts had Obama hired a lawyer for Rezko?

I think I heard McCain on TV recently, being quoted from the past about how one of his weaker qualities is making hasty decisions. He took pride in the fact that he lives with his mistakes.

Nothing against the pregnant daughter: these things happen. But when you compound that with all of the other turbulence and upheaval in this woman’s life, it is hard to believe that an average person could keep the focus on her job.

If she weren’t VP, this tempestuous time of her life would not be an issue. But it’s the same argument that people used against Clinton when Monicagate happened: his mind was elsewhere, and how could he focus on the matter of running the country?

Aw, Casp, I just don’t think your heart’s really in it today.

I dont even know if there is a case study in abstinence-only to compare to traditional sex-ed.

There are approximately 60 bajillion of said reports, and most of them show that while getting comprehensive sex ed doesn’t delay the age of first intercourse by much as opposed to abstinence-only (IIRC it’s about six months’ difference), getting comprehensive sex ed does increase use of contraception in a major way.  So kids who get comprehensive sex ed don’t have sex any earlier than the abstinence-only kids, and they’re also less likely to get pregnant or get STIs.  It’s kind of the textbook definition of win/win.

American culture has and has always had a sick attachment to sexualizing its little girls.  It’s sensationalistic, but there’s an entertaining book called Hollywood Lolitas that discusses it.  Even sugary-sweet Shirley Temple was given some weird undertones by Hollywood.  A lot of the Britney Spears crap from last year creeped me the hell out since there was an undertone of indignation that she hadn’t stayed the media’s dirty little schoolgirl and had actually (gasp!) grown up and become an adult and they just couldn’t find her attractive anymore!

>>a bunch of commenters at Balloon Juice were trying to sell the story even after John told them to STFU.

MaryL’s leaving out the part about how hard she fucking rocked in that thread, trying to set those creeps straight. It was like a text version of Zhang Ziyi’s scene in the Tea House in “Crouching Tiger.”

Could’ve been a different Mary--I don’t remember the L on the end--but Balloon Juice ain’t exactly Ladies’ Night, so I figure the odds are good.

Stay classy. Do not drag the young woman (and mother-to-be) and child into you disagreements with the other side.

As always, Tbogg settles the whole “whose baby is Trig?” thing nicely:

Personally I think the whole “He’s my son..(slap!)..he’s my grandson..(slap!)..he’s my son” thing is just a head fake from the McCain campaign to keep people from talking about the fact that Sarah Palin is the mother of John McCain’s black lovechild. I mean, why else would he select her?

Does Trig need to get a cosiner?

It seems to me that the majority of parents would want their child to be informed and know what their body was about, and have up to date sexual health information, and that fundie “jesus cries when you touch your naughty no-no place” groups have always had the option of saying “we’ll teach our child our values at home and we don’t want them learning what a condom is.

But for the fundies, it’s important to make sure none of the other girls in school can get away with consequence-free sex. It’s part of being nosy and intrusive.

Does Trig need to get a cosiner?

Ms Kate on 09/01 at 07:57 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You funny!

The plaudits Sarah Palin is getting from Wingnutteria for “being so consistent with her values” by her daughter continuing her pregnancy are maddening.  Sarah Palin is not the pregnant one.  Bristol is.  We pro-choicers are nothing if not consistent in our beliefs.  The choice belongs to the woman who is pregnant.  In this case it is Bristol.

It’s common knowledge that most traditionally “red” states teach abstinence-only, NOT comprehensive sex ed.  Including Alaska, which AFAIK does in fact have state funding for abstinence only education.  At this point, no, you cannot just safely assume that a given high school student, outside maybe a major coastal city, is getting proper sex ed. 

i just want to second this, and add that in my blue state (illinois) growing up an hour outside of chicago, i was taught abstinence only sex education over a decade ago, firmly during the clinton years, in my public school. to assume alaska is teaching comprehensive sex education during the bush years seems pretty far fetched. if i recall properly, since bush took office schools cannot recieve federal funding for any type of sex education except abstinence only.  Bristol being 17 means her sex ed would have taken place in the last 8 years. i’m more inclined to believe dick cheney is actually a robot than i am to believe Bristol had comprehensive sex education.

I remember when I was getting comprehensive sex education in school that parents had the option of excusing their children from sex ed classes. Is this still an option?

Yep, but it cuts both ways.  We used the same law to pull our sons from DARE classes, which are another proven time waste for their prohibitionistic/abstinent bullcrap - especially in their utter silence about prescription drug abuse!!!

We will do the same if their sex education is riddled with abstinence garbage, too. Why waste time on lies that are proven to be ineffective?

Jesus Christ, RK. Two wrongs make a right? Making some 17 year old kid miserable is OK because it might serve our purposes?

As I’ve said elsewhere, it’s not just morally horrible to drag a teenager into this, it’s political suicide. There’s no need to make Palin and her family into martyrs.
MaryL on 09/01 at 03:16 PM

Palin and her fellow ideologues are the ones who started and keep stoking the “Culture War”. They’re the ones that want to shout “Lock and Load!!!”.  Fine. If you really want a war, you should be ready to deal with the collateral damage.

Ms Kate—not to mention the problem that often, DARE uses children as unwitting nar