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Next entry: Hanging citizen journalists out to dry: shield-law amendment excludes unpaid bloggers Previous entry: Hey, Mama, I Done Self-Fulfilled A Prophecy!

Note to conservatives: thanks, but your help is not needed

Crime

I didn’t want to write anymore on the Roman Polanski thing, but I feel I should, because I’ve been absolutely floored by the number of people who’ve come to his defense, and how shrill they are.  And if I’m surprised, then that means something, since I’ve been someone who follows rape cases and the public reaction closely, and have seen every vile kind of rape apology out there, including those issued by the MRAs who want to make rape de facto legal.*  But I cannot fucking believe how many people are willing to say upfront that famous film directors should have the full right to rape children, and if you try to stop that, you hate art or something. 

Amanda Hess collected some of the most common Polanski defenses—-interestingly, it seems no one has come right out and said that 13-year-old girls aren’t human beings, but toys to be used and discarded by whatever famous men wish to do so, though of course that’s what they mean—-and I have to say that the weirdest one was (where else?) at Huffington Post.  Kim Morgan claims she’s setting aside her arguments for the right to rape children, and instead does some film criticism of Repulsion in an effort to suggest that Polanski can’t be a rapist, because he understands women, and their dark desires—-hint, hint, his 13-year-old victim was asking for it when she cried and said no and begged to go home.  Polanski knows women better than they know themselves, she says.  He knows, apparently, that 13-year-olds are dying to be raped, even if they continue to say no after the fact by pressing charges.

Of course, if you’re going to judge what Polanski believes about rape from his movies, I’d point out that Tess in the movie titled Tess kills the man who raped her, so perhaps Polanski isn’t actually 100% on board with Morgan’s insinuation that rape is some secret desire of women everywhere, and especially of junior high school girls.  (By the way, that movie has a lot of flaws, but I always thought the murder scene was an awesome scene, since you don’t know what she’s done until you see the pool of blood from the second floor seep through the ceiling on the first.)

Morgan doesn’t even note that Polanski has done a number of movies where sympathetic female characters are unjustly objectified and ruined by the world, and I’ve often thought there was a strong feminist reading of these movies.  Rosemary’s Baby in particular reads as a meditation on how the patriarchy—-characterized not just as evil, but as Satanic—-wears women down, and uses their most human instincts (such as love for your children) to gain women’s compliance.  That movie features a horrifying rape scene, and there’s no doubt that it’s rape, and that there’s something more than a little fucked up about the way Rosemary feels obliged to shrug it off.  It’s interesting to contemplate why Polanski did Tess while on his champagne and caviar exile tour, since of course it’s based on Tess of the D’urbervilles, Thomas Hardy’s story of a woman whose entire life is ruined because she’s raped by….wait for it…..a rich, powerful, older man who is therefore shielded from justice while all the blame is shoved off on Tess.  Is he mining his own life for inspiration while still refusing to submit to justice?  Trying to suggest that he gets the struggle of rape victims?  Who knows?  It was an uneven movie, and the book deserves better.

None of this changes the fact that he raped a child and has decided he should have had the right.


If we wanted to, we could make an incredibly long list of artists and writers whose ideas espoused in their work were not lived in their lives.  Anyone who considers themselves a film critic who can reconcile this reality needs to turn in their film critic card.

But I couldn’t account for the passion behind the defenses of Polanski—-not from the French or from Hollywood—-until I happened to pop on over to Hot Air, and saw that the conservative bloggers are all of a sudden deeply concerned about rape. Was there a moral epiphany, I thought, and can we count on them to stand firmly against rape in the future?  Or is this just an exception because of the youth of the victim? 

I think it’s a little of the latter, but reading Allahpundit, I realized what was going on: He compares it to Chappaquiddick, singles out Hollywood, sneers at art, and all of a sudden I realized what was going on.  The defenders of Polanski are people that conservatives hate no matter what they’re doing: lovers of arty film, the French, Hollywood, people who travel to foreign countries and people who speak multiple languages.  And just as conservatives couldn’t give two shits about a young woman who dies in a car accident when anyone but a liberal politician is driving, I’m afraid we have another opportunistic faux outrage so they can strike at the real villains: art, foreignness, Hollywood liberals.

If the French elite and other Polanski defenders see him as a victim of provincial, sexually repressed assholes, it’s because the provincial, sexually repressed assholes see this as another scalp to collect, now that they’ve got Van Jones.  I kind of wish that the conservatives were leaving this one alone, because the louder they scream, the more Polanski defenders can paint the opposition as a stereotype of the worst kind of Americans, the sort that snarl at the idea of watching a subtitled film, and think that two wine coolers and some experimentation with cunnilingus is walking on the wild side. 

The truth is that most of us that want Polanski to pay for his crime are expressing the best parts of American culture, the belief in the rule of law and equality.  Like many artists, we don’t live up to our ideal of treating every citizen like they deserve the protection of the law, and holding every citizen (no matter how rich) accountable for their crimes.  But punishing Polanski is a step in the right direction, a signal that we do not believe that rich and famous men can rape whoever they like, as long as they stalk the relatively powerless.

*They’ll deny this, but they tend to believe that rape—-unlike any other crime—-should result in an immediate prosecution of the victim for “lying” if the rapist isn’t convicted.  The vast majority of the time, when there isn’t a conviction,  it’s because there’s a lack of evidence, not because a crime didn’t occur, and that’s why we don’t prosecute victims of crimes if the criminal gets away with it.  Murder victims don’t see their families prosecuted, mugging victims aren’t sent to jail if they never catch anyone, etc.

Obviously, the practical effect of a law like this is no one would ever press charges for rape ever again, since doing so likely means going to jail, or at least being prosecuted yourself.  Therefore, MRAs who push for this support the legalization of rape, at least in practice, even if it stays technically legal but completely unenforced.  Functionally, this suggestion is no different than in those countries that require four male witnesses for a rape conviction, and jail women who come forward as victims for fornication.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:09 AM • (140) Comments

I happened to pop on over to Hot Air, and saw that the conservative bloggers are all of a sudden deeply concerned about rape.

I came to the same conclusion yesterday when I read, in your other thread, a comment about CBC readers not defending Polanski but calling for jail time.  CBC itself may be “liberal” but if you spend enough time reading the comments, those doing the posting are mainly conservative, and regularly call for tough sentences and retributive justice a la Harper under articles about crime (I can’t read CBC comments anymore for the sheer ignorance in general).  Our Pandagonian read them as liberal sympathizers but I immediately thought: typical CBC art-hating, foreign-hating prison reformer commentators.  Them’s weren’t all feminists, though I’m sure some were.

I did a survey this morning of headlines/articles, and as many have pointed out, most of them cite “having sex with a 13-year-old girl” rather than “raping a 13-year-old-girl.”  After my blood stopped boiling, I realized their motivation for the euphemizing was probably for legal reasons.  Not that the word choice isn’t contributing to rape culture.  In fact, outlets who used the word rape two days ago have started calling it “having sex”; should at least be saying “unlawful sex” as per the charge, but…I wonder if some cease-and-desists went out?  Just makes me angrier at Polanski.

Comment #1: Ranylt  on  09/29  at  11:19 AM

There is absolutely no possible frame to buy into here, beyond the irrelevant “but he’s rich famous director blah blah” frame, that buys him any sanctuary.

So she “didn’t look 13”.  So what, he raped her twice.  Age doesn’t matter.

So “he’s old and in another country”.  That other country decided it was serious.  His age and wealth, so the fuck what.

The proper frames to work with here:

1) He decided that he was above and beyond the US justice system.  Just like a terrorist.  Letting him go means letting terrorists who have taken up residence in other countries off the hook.

2) He raped.  Rape rape rape.  There are no two ways around this - he pled guilty to the incident.  Her being 13 years old was the legal issue at the time - the fact that he is a rapist regardless of her age is the real issue.

Comment #2: Ms Kate  on  09/29  at  11:21 AM

(Hm.  I should change “prison reform” to “justice reform”, since “prison reform” always makes me think of John Howard and Elizabeth Fry, and they deserve better.  “Justice reform” in Canada, right now, is coming from the right.)

Comment #3: Ranylt  on  09/29  at  11:22 AM

Oh, and is anybody else here old enough to remember that infuriating tagline for Tess: 

A victim of her own provacative beauty

Even as a pre-teen I could see through that smeared bullshit.  She was a victim of her victimizers, not her “I can’t help it I’m pretty” looks.

Comment #4: Ms Kate  on  09/29  at  11:23 AM

As much as the Wingnuts’ hypocrisy annoys me, and as much as I wish they gave this much of a shit about rape or feminism or young women dying when they aren’t using those things to score political points, I don’t really expect any better from them. 

What I can’t get over is the sheer mass of supposed liberals who are defending this guy, the arguments they’re using to do it, and just which ones are doing it.

I mean, Whoopi Goldberg.  Whoopi Goldberg!  WTF, man?

Comment #5: Seraph  on  09/29  at  11:43 AM

*Counterfactual alert*
I’m sure I’m not the first to think of this, and I haven’t followed the Roman Polanski story closely, but it occurs to me that if Polanski had raped a 13-year-old boy, he would likely have been an international pariah over the last few decades who would have had trouble getting a movie made, let alone getting anyone to watch it.

Comment #6: FearItself  on  09/29  at  11:46 AM

Yeah, someone just pointed out that I sounded like Sean Hannity in calling for Polanski to face justice.

It’s a shame Hannity doesn’t really care about the law or rape victims and is only bashing b/c Polanski, being an artiste, is on the “other team”.

Fuck this shit.  No discussion of letting Polanski walk without first mentioning he pled guilty to repeatedly raping a child.  When his sweetheart plea deal looked like it was going south, perhaps due to his still-evident lack of remorse, he fled the country.  Because he was rich.  Because he was entitled.

If he didn’t make movies, Hannity and his ilk would be raking him over the coals.  They LIVE for that type of entitled rich shit.

Comment #7: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  09/29  at  11:52 AM

So, now that justice and the rule of law has become so important to our Reichwing friends, when are we going to see them call for serious investigation and prosecution of the many crimes of the Cheney/Bush Administration?...

*crickets*

...yeah, I thought so…

Comment #8: MikeEss  on  09/29  at  11:54 AM

FearItself—A politician once famously said that the only thing that could bring him down would be being caught with a “dead girl or live boy.” So yes, the cultural prejudice appears to run that way.

Comment #9: means are the ends  on  09/29  at  12:02 PM

The truth is that most of us that want Polanski to pay for his crime are expressing the best parts of American culture, the belief in the rule of law and equality.

Of course Polanski should pay for crimes he committed. I agree with Amanda Hess that all of the defenses she mentioned are bullshit, with the exception of some of the things she says with “But the American justice system is fucked up”.  I have a problem when she says “surely we can find a better martyr ” than Polanski, who has been convicted of nothing.  Sounds like she is saying it is okay if Polanski is getting screwed over, then says she wants Polanski to be tried “legally and fairly.”

If we believe in ‘the rule of law’, Polanski either gets the no-jail time plea deal he agreed to or he gets to withdraw his plea of guilty made in conjunction with a plea deal.  He didn’t ‘confess’, legally speaking.

If the plea is withdrawn and the case doesn’t get thrown out for prosecutorial/judicial misconduct, I’ll bet it never sees a trial, for a bunch of reasons that could be an entirely separate large blog post (uncooperative victim, lost files, misconduct, length of time, just to get started).  In the end, his punishment will be sitting in a cell as part of the legal process itself (waiting on extradition, other hearings, etc) , not as a result of the process working as it should. 

How are you going to feel if Polanski gets here and the case is thrown out?  Should the DA go to trial knowing he will lose, so we can send a message? Me, I say no. Wouldn’t a “Not Guilty” verdict be the worst possible outcome? And I am not defending what Polanski did at all. Not a bit.

Comment #10: racymind  on  09/29  at  12:14 PM

Okay, maybe this comparison will make things a little clearer to our fellow liberals who just can’t seem to understand why Polanski is still being pursued after 30 years:

It’s not that his crime was so terrible, though it was a terrible crime.  It’s because he fled the country to avoid jail.

This is the inescapable fact.  For all the talk about how it was a long time ago, the victim doesn’t want to have to relive it, he would have long since been released, a full trial would have been a circus, blah blah blah, the fact remains that Polanski fled the country to avoid jail.

Whatever else you think of our justice system, it’s pretty hard to claim that fleeing the country to avoid jail was a noble act of protest against the way he was being treated.  It wasn’t.  It was just Polanski not wanting to do jail time, and having enough money and influence to avoid it for 30 years.

The best part is, at least half of the people complaining about how the LA district attorney’s office pursued Polanski for 30 years because he fled the country to avoid jail time simultaneously whine about how the Bush administration is avoiding any penalty for their crimes.  Hmm, do you think that maybe the cases are analogous since they both involve people who believe that their social position means they should never have to face a penalty for their crimes?

Oh, that’s right—all Polanski did was drug, rape, and sodomize a 13-year-old girl.  Apparently rich people should only be prosecuted if they do something bad.

Comment #11: Mnemosyne  on  09/29  at  12:18 PM

If the French elite and other Polanski defenders see him as a victim of provincial, sexually repressed assholes, it’s because the provincial, sexually repressed assholes see this as another scalp to collect

No. The French elite and other Polanski defenders are not reluctantly forced into their rape-apologist stance by the actions of Allahpundit et al. Why are you making excuses for them?

Your other points are absolutely true; if this were a lion of conservative film-making in Polanski’s shoes, you know the MRA/rightwingers would be howling about how the bitch probably raped him. But I cannot fathom the argument that people making excuses for Polanski do so BECAUSE of sexually-repressed assholes. Actually, they’re rape apologists because they’re rape apologists. They’re on the same spectrum as that guy who pressured you into sex because “come on, you’re not an uptight prude!” or who defends the sexual exploitation of women as ‘sex is natural and the human body is beautiful’.

Comment #12: mythago  on  09/29  at  12:25 PM

racymind - as Mnemosyne points out, Polanski skipped town to avoid his slap-on-the-wrist sentence.  That’s a crime in and of itself, one that he’s very obviously guilty of.  It’s not the crime he deserves to go away for, but it has teeth.  Think of Al Capone and tax evasion.

Comment #13: Seraph  on  09/29  at  12:26 PM

What Polanski did, raping a thirteen year old girl. is inexcusable.  I can’t understand how anyone can be defending his actions.  His body of work is totally irrelevant to the discussion.  He raped a thirteen year old girl.  As far as I know he has never shown any real remorse, and even if he had showing remorse isn’t enough.  Leaving aside his films and their value of art, which make no difference to the facts anyway, he is a rapist and child molester.  Whatever the motivations of the conservative noise machine in condemning him doesn’t matter either, and I agree that they are using this particular case for their own purposes.  He raped a thirteen year old girl.  Which part of that do people fail to understand?

Comment #14: G Porgey  on  09/29  at  12:27 PM

Not all the posts at Huffpo are pro-Polanski, but a lot of them are. Here’s one I found yesterday that I heartily agree with. Here’s the key ‘graph:

“There is a victim in this. And it’s not the girl-turned-grown-up woman who now forgives her rapist and wants to move on. The victim is the 13-year-old girl she was when this 44-year-old man took advantage of her, got her drunk, and then pushed himself into every available and unavailable orifice he could. We owe that kid something, don’t we? We owe every kid like her, past and future, our vigilance and dedication to punishing their attackers, regardless of the rapist’s talent and fame.”

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-seitzman/and-the-best-child-rapist_b_302249.html

Comment #15: KMac  on  09/29  at  12:28 PM

Since Robert Stroud raised birds and wrote books on bird pathology in prison, I suppose that should have outweighed the murders and assaults he committed and he should have been released, instead of ending up on Alcatraz…

Comment #16: MikeEss  on  09/29  at  12:46 PM

FACT CHECK:
racymind:I have a problem when she says “surely we can find a better martyr “ than Polanski, who has been convicted of nothing.  Sounds like she is saying it is okay if Polanski is getting screwed over, then says she wants Polanski to be tried “legally and fairly.”

Polanski HAS been tried legally.  He pled guilty.  “Fairly”?  Not if you consider that he commited RAPE not just “had sex with a young girl =statutory rape” but “forced himself on a woman rape”, yet was up for just the 13 year old girl part of the story.

Comment #17: Ms Kate  on  09/29  at  12:47 PM

I’m sure I’m not the first to think of this, and I haven’t followed the Roman Polanski story closely, but it occurs to me that if Polanski had raped a 13-year-old boy, he would likely have been an international pariah over the last few decades who would have had trouble getting a movie made, let alone getting anyone to watch it.

Not necessarily. Victor Salva, who did jail time for raping a 12-year-old boy, has managed to maintain a career as a director. His movies don’t compare to Polanski’s, but he still gets work AFAIK.

I’ve always thought showbiz and major-league sports have at least one thing in common: If you can perform, you’ll usually find someone willing to take a chance on you, no matter how much of a shit you are in your private life.

Comment #18: Bitter Scribe  on  09/29  at  01:07 PM

The rape… I don’t get at all. It’s an awful thing, he shouldn’t have done it. He should face his punishment.

That said: Fleeing the country to avoid jail, I entirely understand. If I were ever to face imprisonment and that option were available to me, I’d give it a try. Hell, even without the prospect of jail time, I’ve given a fair amount of thought to fleeing the country.

If jail is anything like what is presented in television and movies, then it’s not a very safe place for people who have raped children. His fame would probably protect him from the worst of it though.

Comment #19: BenYitzhak  on  09/29  at  01:19 PM

I really feel like the people declaring that Polanski shouldn’t do time for his crime because he’s an artist are about as intellectually honest and legally relevant as the people declaring that Charlie Manson should be released because Neil Young through he was a great musician.

Comment #20: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/29  at  01:20 PM

Some people just can’t separate the creator from her work. They refuse to listen to Wagner because he was an anti-semite. They dislike Ender’s Game because Orson Scott Card is an asshole.

People are people. They do awful things on occasion. Sometimes people who do hideous, awful things also create magnificent things. It can’t be helped. We shouldn’t condone the bad acts just because someone does excellent work, but likewise, we shouldn’t condemn the art for failings of the creator.

Comment #21: BenYitzhak  on  09/29  at  01:30 PM

I’m in film school right now, and as you can imagine there are plenty of apologists around, which is extremely frustrating.  I blogged about the issue myself - http://www.okaywithme.com/?p=327 - and have been pretty much directing people to read that rather than having the same argument over and over again, because it’s getting tiring.

Comment #22: Dustin L  on  09/29  at  01:33 PM

There has been inadequate mention of the elitist, tribal, condescending nature of much of the Polanski defence.  There HAS been an unconscionable amount of We’re Better Than You snobbery in amongst Polanksi’s defenders so I have a great deal of trouble bewailing that conservatives are making note of it.

Look, one of the reasons that Polanski has so many defenders among the political and artistic elite is that the victim is, to their eyes, a fucking nothing little peasant and who cares about them, right?  Let’s not let the stupid, selective hypocricy of the right-wing’s sudden interest in important matters blind us to the fact that in this case a lot of the rage against the oh-so-special chattering classes is actually right and proper and spot-on.

Comment #23: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  01:34 PM

Thanks Amanda.  You have said it all.  It’s hard to be on the “same side” as cons, when you know your motives are so awfully different.  And it’s hard to watch some liberals (almost all male liberals, with some notable exceptions) argue that the arrest is an outrage. 

The huffp as your linked post indicates, has hosted some of the absolutely most egregious and disgusting and low defenses of Polanski.  And they won’t even let me get a post through asking; where are the voices of the feminists?

Then you have whoopi goldberg claiming this wasn’t a “rape-rape”. 

this has been ugly and outraeous and illuminating and horrifically frustrating all around, and more needed to be said and I’m glad you said it.

Comment #24: JennyLI  on  09/29  at  01:40 PM

Polanski HAS been tried legally.  He pled guilty.

Entering a plea of guilty based on a plea bargain is not a trial.  Plea bargaining is what they do to avoid a trial. 

So, bet you can guess how I feel about the all caps ‘fact check’ thing.

Comment #25: racymind  on  09/29  at  01:46 PM

Some people just can’t separate the creator from her work. They refuse to listen to Wagner because he was an anti-semite. They dislike Ender’s Game because Orson Scott Card is an asshole.

For fuck’s sake. Everyone in the Polanski case who can’t separate the creator from his work is saying that because he is a great artist therefore nothing he does is wrong or deserves punishment. Their great error is exactly the opposite of what you’re pretending it is. It is, in fact, a far more common error than the one you’re smugging about, and a far more serious one. Defending an evil artist because you like his art is not morally, ethically, or intellectually equivalent to shunning someone’s artistic production because they are personally despicable. That’s because art has no rights, only people do, and it’s because the latter harms no one, while the former harms us all.

Comment #26: sophonisba  on  09/29  at  01:50 PM

Whoopi’s grand-daughter is about thirteen, isn’t she?  Maybe we should ask Goldberg whether her opinion about the not rape-rape exclusion includes having that child drugged and raped, crying and alone.

To even pose such a harsh question rather does point out how slimy and hypocritical Polanski’s defenders are.

Comment #27: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  01:50 PM

If you buy his books used, he doesn’t see any profit from that.

But the same thing came up with Ted Kennedy. His personal life, iffy, but a lot of the work he did was awesome.

For fuck’s sake. Everyone in the Polanski case who can’t separate the creator from his work is saying that because he is a great artist therefore nothing he does is wrong or deserves punishment. Their great error is exactly the opposite of what you’re pretending it is.

I made my point in reverse, but it’s the same thing in the first paragraph, but I touched on your point in the second, that people are trying to condone bad acts because of the artist’s work. They like the work, so they want to think the creator of the work is not a bad person. It’s very difficult to think that when the creator is a rapist, so they try to argue that he isn’t. This is because rapist is one of those terms. A person who steals only once is not a thief. But a person who rapes is, and ever will be, a rapist.

Then again… maybe that’s not the case. I mean, Mike Tyson, he hardly seems to be being treated like a rapist.

Comment #28: BenYitzhak  on  09/29  at  02:07 PM

AAAARG!

Will people please stop using the word “renege” to describe a judge not accepting a plea bargain?  Renege in its modern accepted, non-archaic usage is “to go back on one’s word”.  The judge can’t
“renege” on a bargain that he’s not party to, and he certainly can’t “renege” on an agreement which was from the beginning always subject to his discretion to accept or reject!!!!

I’d personally love to see Polanksi get an extra sentence for unlawful flight.

Comment #29: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  02:10 PM

Shoot, I did not proof read my last post carefully enough.

That should read “I made my point in reverse in the first paragraph, but I touched on your point in the second” instead of the gibberish I’ve got there.

Comment #30: BenYitzhak  on  09/29  at  02:10 PM

They’ll deny this, but they tend to believe that rape—-unlike any other crime—-should result in an immediate prosecution of the victim for “lying” if the rapist isn’t convicted.

  Do the people who take this position make any distinction between “no conviction” and “proven baseless, malicious accusation?”  If they won’t make that distinction, then they are admitting that legalizing rape is their aim, since, as mentioned above, lots and lots of things other than “it didn’t happen” can result in no conviction.  If they will, well, don’t we already have laws against maliciously accusing people of crimes? Why aren’t those good enough on their own? Why should the standard of proof be any different?
  I suppose that system of requiring four male witnesses would appeal to these people. Argh.

Comment #31: Jebediah  on  09/29  at  02:13 PM

“If Shakespeare returned to the earth tomorrow, and if it were found that his favourite recreation was raping little girls in railway carriages, we should not tell him to go ahead with it on the ground that he might write another King Lear.”
George Orwell - “Benefit of Clergy: Some Notes on Salvador Dali”, 1944.
http://www.george-orwell.org/Benefit_of_Clergy:_Some_Notes_on_Salvador_Dali/0.html

What’s sad is that Orwell was wrong.  If that happened there’s a ton of people who’d be providing Shakespeare with children and train tickets and speaking out about what monsters people were for not recognizing his genius.

Comment #32: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  02:15 PM

I’m not making excuses for Polanski’s defenders, and I’m offended, deeply, at the idea that I’m playing footsie with child rape apologism.  My point is valid.  The apologists want to believe that Polanski is being attacked for his artfulness and his Europeaness.  The conservatives are giving them ammo for this belief.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/29  at  02:18 PM

But I cannot fucking believe how many people are willing to say upfront that famous film directors should have the full right to rape children, and if you try to stop that, you hate art or something.

YES. Thank you so much for writing that. I mean sure there is a time limit for civil cases and etc. etc. but personally I think that for a criminal one, especially when the criminal has been hiding out in another country for years (and really- why would you do that if you are too afraid to face the law or the facts?).
I think that the whole brilliant, tortured soul/artist thing is NOT an excuse to act like Polanski has done. Of course, the whole brilliant soul/artist thing ONLY applies if you’re a man - obviously.
There could be whole volumes of douche behaviour written on how the male priviledge applies doubly in art school and in the creative field but I wouldn’t go into it here.

Comment #34: Danica Lefse Queen  on  09/29  at  02:20 PM

seeker6079 and others are right about the judge being within his discretion in possibly rejecting the plea agreement. Time served is an incredibly lenient sentence for forcibly raping a minor.

Comment #35: Bitter Scribe  on  09/29  at  02:21 PM

Amanda, there’s a difference between defending his defenders (which you ain’t doing) and criticizing the right wing assholes for being right for once (which, to be fair, you are doing).  Given that Polanski has walked like a prince among adoring crowds of artists and Europeans for three decades know, people gushing all over him despite knowing that he’s a child rapist, they can now hardly be justified in resenting the sneer, however feckless and nasty those people extending it. 

I think that the American government should provide a list of every man in prison for raping a thirteen year old, and politely suggest that if they want Polanksi on their streets then they might want to accept these men too as the price of that pleasure.

Comment #36: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  02:22 PM

Look, one of the reasons that Polanski has so many defenders among the political and artistic elite is that the victim is, to their eyes, a fucking nothing little peasant and who cares about them, right?

This attitude is coming in loud and clear from many of Polanski’s defenders…because he is such an artiste and an excellent filmmaker, he should be exempt from the same laws that the rest of us have to comply with…...

A mentality that is reminiscent of the idea that if one has elite socio-economic status of some kind….that the laws don’t apply no matter how depraved and harmful his/her actions tend to be.

Comment #37: exholt  on  09/29  at  02:24 PM

I have far more sympathy for Polanski fleeing the country than for the rape. 

The flight was triggered by the presence of a judge who was going to throw out a plea bargain made under the understanding that Polanski receive a token sentence, and who was instead going to impose a 30-year prision term, in violation of all sorts of judicial rules. 

So I have a problem with people who complain about Polanski because he fled the country to avoid jail time, not matter how many times they type it in bold face.  There is something very judicially wrong when a person on trial thinks he has agreed to plea guilty, in return for receiving a minor prison sentence, and is instead told that he’s going to lose several decades of his life. 

I feel that this should be a point that one can discuss intelligently without being set up as the defender of rape, statutory or otherwise.

Comment #38: Whispers  on  09/29  at  02:26 PM

Whispers:
There is a very simple way of avoiding that problem: Don’t plead guilty.  Simple, no?  There’s nothing wrong at all with a system that a person be bound by what they agreed to including the risk that all such agreements entail.

Your argument is, essentially, that Polanski should have had a guarantee on sentence that no other criminal defendant gets.

Comment #39: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  02:32 PM

As for the right-wing’s pathological french hatred, let’s not forget that the French political classes can frequently be self-righteous, smug, deliberately infuriating political assholes of the highest order.  One should not believe that a liking or love of France includes a liking for its smarmy, oft-scummy, stick-in-your-eye-just-to-show-you-who’s-BOSS! childish, self-regarding political classes.  It’s sort of bred in the bone now, after De Gaulle.  Contrary for the sake of contrary is often their middle name.

Comment #40: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  02:36 PM

Jeb, there’s *already* a law against filing false claims and wasting taxpayer money.  It’s enforced at the police and prosecutor’s discretion, and therefore rarely, because the rare instances that someone files a false claim, there’s some sort of extenuating circumstances that make prosecution a bad idea.  (Usually mental illness.) 

MRAs I’ve talked to want an entirely *new* law specifically *for* rape that would automatically result in charges filed against rape victims when the prosecutor didn’t make the case.  Their reasoning is that women make false claims to ruin men’s lives all the time and this is the only way to stop it.  Never mind that people get unjustly eyeballed for murder and no one compensates them—-hey, it happened to Polanski!  I’m forced, especially taking the cross-cultural information into account, that sexists want a situation where rape is technically illegal but legal in reality, so that rapists can do their thing while not being called rapists.  If it were actually legalized, then rapists wouldn’t be able to avoid being called rapists by saying they weren’t convicted.

Comment #41: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/29  at  02:36 PM

Whispers, you really don’t see fucking glaring contradictions in your post?

You have far more sympathy for Polanski fleeing the country than for rape, but you are not a defender of rape? Come again, please. Or, y’know, please don’t.

Comment #42: samanthab.  on  09/29  at  02:40 PM

None of this changes the fact that he raped a child and has decided he should have had the right.

His plea of guilty was an acknowledgment that he was wrong; his flight was a revolt against the judge’s rejection of the plea bargain. In some states, if a judge surpasses your plea agreement you are given the option of withdrawing your plea and going to trial. It appears that California did not have that right. Polanski did not escape his plea; just his (potential) sentence. What is interesting here is that, somehow, Polanski got wind of the judge’s intent. How and why needs to be investigated.

The other odd thing is that if Polanski goes back the odds of him receiving any jail time are virtually non-existent. There will be a sentencing report and evaluation; along with a victim witness statement; plus an examination of his life after the arrest/plea. He will be charged for his fleeing the country, but, all in all, he will not go to jail. Why he does not just come back and get it over with is beyond me.

By the by, any argument as to whether what he did was rape is insane. Statutory rape does not rely on knowledge of the person’s age or whether s/he consented or whether you made a mistake or anything other that her/his age and your age. His supporters can argue to their blue in the face that her age is not relevant or that 13 year old girls were often married in the 1800’s or that Europe is different or that she seduced him. There is no state in America that allows a 13 year old to consent to sex.

The only real questions are one, is the arrest warrant valid? Two, if so, was it executed properly? Three, if so, what is the proper course of procedure?

Comment #43: caliban  on  09/29  at  02:44 PM

Plea bargains are subject to the judge’s discretion; the offer of a plea bargain by the prosecutor doesn’t obligate the judge, who actually does the sentencing. Obviously judges know that if they renege on the agreement, it decreases the effectiveness of the plea bargain as a tool, so they usually don’t, but in some circumstances they do, and it doesn’t invalidate a guilty plea.

You feel reneging on the substance of a plea deal and not allowing a defendant to withdraw a plea is okay?  I don’t, not in any case, ever (and of course, we have now wandered deeply into the prosecutorial and judicial misconduct area of the affair).  The deal was no jail time, like it or not.  Changing it at sentencing is just trickster justice.  Not okay for any defendant, including Polanski.

But, I admit I did overdo it about the judges requirement to allow the defendant to withdraw a plea , they can technically get out of it, as you say, as long as they don’t change the reduced charge.  To do it is still to lie to defendants to avoid a trial.

Another point I give… I shouldn’t have said exactly ‘convicted of nothing’ earlier in comment 10 , I should have added ‘at trial’ or said something different to reflect the ‘reneged plea deal’ status.

Comment #44: racymind  on  09/29  at  02:45 PM

Racymind, permit me to summarize your argument:
“Roman, you agree to plea deal, but the judge isn’t bound by it and can increase your sentence.”
“Okay, I agree.”
Judge: “I don’t accept the plea deal.  I want a higher sentence which fits the crime.”
Roman and chorus: “Trickery!  Trickery!”

Racymind, I think you have the circumstances backwards: Polanksi wasn’t the terrified thirteen year old, facing a nightmare alone.  He was the adult with oodles of cash, superb defence lawyers and a sound mind.  He chose to be a rapist, he chose to plead guilty, he chose to accept the risks and then, when faced with the consequences of his choices, chose to flee to country.  All else is puffery and celebrity fluffing.

As for prosecutorial misconduct, perhaps yes, perhaps no; that film on Polanksi was the most wonderful bit of whitewash since Aunt Polly handed Tom Sawyer the brush.  If he wants to argue that he was railroaded then the place to do it is back in California, before the courts.  Given that he’s had thirty years to accumulate countless more riches, to let the case weaken against him, and to watch California descend into a place where convictions are next to impossible to obtain against rich and famous people he shouldn’t complain about his chances: they are, without a doubt, better there than in anywhere else in the world.  (Except, perhaps, France, which would probably let him rape every third junior high tourist if that meant pissing off the Americans.)

Comment #45: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  02:54 PM

Amanda at 43:
I know there are already laws against false claims…. I was trying to be snarky, or something, but it wasn’t working too well.  I wanted to point to the transparently obvious reasons why those laws aren’t sufficient for rape-apologists (or whatever they want to call themselves.)
And really, would these dudes want their own daughters to face the risk of that special law if they were raped, but couldn’t get a conviction?

Comment #46: Jebediah  on  09/29  at  02:54 PM

if you think your judge is engaging in judicial misconduct and violating sentencing rules, you file an appeal. If you’re rich, you stay out of jail on bail while the appeal is in process.

But if you’re crazy evil enough to drug a teenager so that you can rape her, you’re not going to bother with the rules of criminal-trial procedure either.

Comment #47: paul  on  09/29  at  02:56 PM

#31:  Will people please stop using the word “renege” to describe a judge not accepting a plea bargain?

No. I won’t entertain the idea that the judge didn’t know Polanski’s deal was for no jail time. If there is any doubt at all,  Polanski’s petition to dismiss is full of evidence the judge knew.

The judge doesn’t like it, let him withdraw the plea and go to trial.  Simple.  No trickster shit.

Comment #48: racymind  on  09/29  at  03:00 PM

Racymind at 47:
How often do we have to point this out?  The judge cannot “renege” on a bargain!  He’s not a part of the bargain!  He was never a part of the bargain!  The bargain is made with the full knowledge and awareness that the judge can override the bargain!

Do you want it tattooed backwards on your forehead so that can you remember it or are you going to get it this time?

Comment #49: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  03:01 PM

You know, I’m very much someone who finds their interpretation of a work colored by what I know about the author. Partially it’s because I reject the school of criticism that interprets a work irrespective of the context of the author’s biography and the time in which they wrote (or filmed, you know what I mean.) Partially it’s that I want to vote with my dollars, and not enrich those whose actions and opinions I find odious.

I’m no New Critic either (who is anymore?), and as a lit scholar I’m pretty sure most people’s response to work is “coloured” by context (whether they admit it or not) but I think Bill Hicks still has the last word on that problem, which admittedly is a problem people will deal with in different ways (and we probably all have our triggers, so we cherry-pick—so long Andrew Dice Clay, in my case). If we’re going to start eliminating art created by womanizers, racists, homophobes, misogynists, drug addicts, molesters, conservatives and general all-around unpleasant folk who bear qualities that hurt others or that don’t suit our own outlook, we’re in for a pretty massive cull.  As you are re. Endgame, I’m not prepared to throw out my Milton quite yet.  Or my Tarantino.  Or my Polanski.  Or my Waugh. Or my Prime Suspect series. And I’ll just be reading “Lord of the Flies” a little differently from now on:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/aug/16/william-golding-attempted-rape

(Even when we thought we knew them… Who’s going to keep a master list for us?)

That intersection, or that gap between “the artist” and “the art” is part of what makes us think, react, learn, understand what it is to be human.  It’s part of the function of art.  It’s precious, and I’m endlessly fascinated by it.

Comment #50: Ranylt  on  09/29  at  03:02 PM

Except, Whispers, that is how the system works—it’s the one he chose to live under, too.  In part, so that DAs don’t get plea-bargain happy and give what you just admitted is a “token” prison sentence for child rapists.  No matter what atrocities they have lived through, or how good their art is.

Quote from Wikipedia, which has now been locked:  “Court sources said the film director, imprisoned in Auschwitz by the Nazis during World War II, was repelled by the thought of possibly serving more time behind bars.”  He wasn’t insisting he was innocent, he wasn’t even insisting his crime wasn’t bad enough to go to jail… he just didn’t want to go.  Whatever your past sufferings, when you rape a child I think you lose the right to have a valid opinion on whether or not you actually go to jail for it.

Comment #51: birdonabeam  on  09/29  at  03:03 PM

As for the right-wing’s pathological french hatred, let’s not forget that the French political classes can frequently be self-righteous, smug, deliberately infuriating political assholes of the highest order.

Yeah, no one’s denying this, I’m sure.  Not me, not anyone.  But it’s laughable to suggest that right wing hatred of the French is rooted in anything approaching evidence-based assessments.  The French are an easy target because they have more words for wine than “red” and “white”, and that includes the every day salt of the earth working people.

Comment #52: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/29  at  03:07 PM

Racymind the question of whether the judge knew about the plea bargain is irrelevant in fact and law.  He can’t be bound by foreknowledge.  The bargain was always subject to the knowledge that a judge, when appraised of the bargain, is not bound by it.

It’s not “trickster shit” when a person who isn’t bound by a bargain acts like they’re not bound by the bargain.  It’s the reality and the risk that Polanksi and his counsel agreed to in the first place.

Judge Rittenband allegedly (and other than the worshipful and one-sided documentary we have little evidence) listened to one ADA when he shouldn’t have.  IF that happened we don’t know if he would have recused himself, or given the Polanski attorneys an opportunity to address the issues or seek sentencing by a new judge.  (The fact that he spoke to the Polanski attorneys indicates a proper if belated handling of the alleged error.)  We don’t know because Polanski, faced with the consequences of his crime and plea, fled the country.

Comment #53: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  03:09 PM

Marcotte at 56: granted.  I just wanted it on the record that it is evidence-based to loathe their political classes, especially most of the Gaullists.

Comment #54: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  03:10 PM

Ranylt that’s a good post.  It’s complicated.  I have always separated the art from the artist.  I love Woody Allen films, knowing full well that I wouldn’t want to live next door to him or have him over for dinner.  I wouldn’t want him as a friend.  This case though has really riled me, seeing some of the famous people who are leaping to defend this piece of shit and claiming it’s an outrage that he was arrested.  First of all, and this is poetic in my opinion - Polanski was asking for it.  His lawyers attempted to get California to drop the charges against him on the grounds that the U.S. was not actively attempting to extradite him.  Oopps! 

What’s the outrage?  The guy was begging for it.  He was temtping the feds to do this by prancing around in that “oh you don’t even make like you want me anymore” outfit, and what did they do?  They gave him exactly what he was so coyly begging for.

I’m kinda at the point where I really don’t want to financially support the pigs who are proclaiming that a man should be able to commit a rape because he’s a good artist.  But then…of course the asshole Woody Allen goes and signs the petition supporting Polanski.  (big surprise, I know).  But I love Woody Allen movies.  Am I going to give them up?  Guess what, I’m a big enough hypocrite that no, I’m not.

Comment #55: JennyLI  on  09/29  at  03:11 PM

I happened to pop on over to Hot Air, and saw that the conservative bloggers are all of a sudden deeply concerned about rape.

Where did you get the idea that conservatives think rape is a good thing?

Comment #56: The Sasquatch  on  09/29  at  03:12 PM

Frankly I do not give a flying f*** about Polanski’s artistry.  He drugged and raped a 13 year old child.  He then fled the country to avoid prosecution after pleading guilty.  It does not matter how long ago it was or how old he is or whatever else he has done since.  We still go after 80+ year old Nazi concentration camp guards who have lived quiet family lives since the end of the wat, we should go after child rapists the same way.

Comment #57: DrDick  on  09/29  at  03:12 PM

According to CNN, http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Movies/09/27/zurich.roman.polanski.arrested/index.html  the sentence that the judge contemplated giving Polanski was forty eight more days.  Not a lot.  Not thirty years.  Forty eight days.  Still a ridiculously low sentence for rape even when it is called sex with a minor.  Here’s the quote from the CNN article:

“But the original judge in the case, who is now dead, first sent the director to maximum-security prison for 42 days while he underwent psychological testing. Then, on the eve of his sentencing, the judge told attorneys he was inclined to send Polanski back to prison for another 48 days.”

Polanski felt so entitled by his status as a famous film director and internationally acclaimed artist to rape little girls at will that he fled the United States rather than do 48 more days for his crime.  The judges extra sentence would have given him 90 whole days in jail for raping a thirteen year old girl after drugging her, which is a miscarriage of justice, but not the kind of miscarriage that Polanski’s defenders seem to think it is.

Comment #58: G Porgey  on  09/29  at  03:19 PM

Sasquatch we know conservatives aren’t down with rape.

You know, as long as the victim was a “good girl” ie; a virgin or a married mother who has only ever had intercourse with one man, her husband.

Or you know, any white woman raped by a black guy.

Other than that, we’re shit out of luck.  Luckily, liberals and feminists liberalized rape laws and even us bad girls have some protectiond under the law now.

Comment #59: JennyLI  on  09/29  at  03:20 PM

“You feel reneging on the substance of a plea deal and not allowing a defendant to withdraw a plea is okay?”

Hell yes
When you enter a Guilty plea, b4 senticing, the Judge specifically asks you if you understand that he is not bound by any plea agreements and are you sure you STILL want to plead Guilty?

Comment #60: jefft452  on  09/29  at  03:23 PM

“Where did you get the idea that conservatives think rape is a good thing? “

It’s not that they think its a good thing, it’s that they think it never actually happens - you know, cuz women are evil slutty liars who want to entrap good, upstanding men through the lucrative use of false rape accusations.  That is, of course, unless the accused is a person of color, and the victim a good little white Christian virgin. Then it’s totes a REAL rape (tm).

Comment #61: Gypsy Lee  on  09/29  at  03:23 PM

48 more days.  LOL.  It’s not funny-funny, as Whoopi the idiot might say, just ironic funny, horrifyingly funny.  funny because for days I have heard about this “crazy” “out of control” “vengeful” “politically motivated” “rougue” judge who was going to “renege” on the deal he played no part in, and sentence Roman to lord knows what.  You know, maybe even to a sentence befitting a 45 year old man who drugged, raped, and sodomized a 13 year old child.

Now I find out it was 48 days.  And they defend this fucking piece of shit and claim that people like me are “hurting the victim” because we are not “respecting her wishes” and are “revictimizing” her by supporting the arrest.

I’ve heard all of that and more on the huffpo.  All that, and more. This is amazing.  48 fucking days.

Comment #62: JennyLI  on  09/29  at  03:24 PM

“Where did you get the idea that conservatives think rape is a good thing?”

No body said that at all.

But you have to admit “conservatives” often see things a little differently. 

For example, if Rush Limbaugh had raped a 13-year old girl back in the day, somehow there would be a good reason why it really wasn’t rape and he shouldn’t have to pay a legal penalty for it.  The way his drug crimes were made to go away, with no effect on his ratings, is proof of what I’m saying.

If Polanski was a leading light on the Right instead of a European/Jew/Hollywood/probable-leftist, the rightwing would be silent, or actively trying to get him released…

Comment #63: MikeEss  on  09/29  at  03:25 PM

I mean, Whoopi Goldberg.  Whoopi Goldberg!  WTF, man?
Comment #5: Seraph on 09/29 at 10:43 AM

Oh no. I adore her. :/

Comment #64: pitbullgirl65  on  09/29  at  03:25 PM

<blockquote>None of this changes the fact that he raped a child and has decided he should have had the right.</b>

Perhaps I’ve not paid attention to the details, but is Amanda implying that Polanski’s fleeing of the country to avoid justice is proof that he believes he has the ‘right’ to commit rape?  So every fugitive killer secretly thinks he or she was allowed to take a life?  Unless there’s evidence that this was Polanski’s mindset, that’s a mighty charge to level against someone, even a rapist.  One can commit a heinous act, even a premeditated one as Polanski did, while still knowing such behavior to be shameful and immoral.  Fearing retribution doesn’t make one a sociopath, it just makes one a coward.

Comment #65: Tommy Deelite  on  09/29  at  03:27 PM

“And who was instead going to impose a 30-year prision term”

That’s what Rapist Polanski deserved (and more), but not what was on the table, as it were. He would have gotten 40_ more DAYS.  For drugging and raping a child.  Clearly, you picked the right side to be sympathetic to, rape apologist.

Comment #66: Gypsy Lee  on  09/29  at  03:27 PM

You feel reneging on the substance of a plea deal and not allowing a defendant to withdraw a plea is okay?

Well, it’s legal. It didn’t involve some sort of actual contract between judge, DA, and defendant, did it? It may be a bad idea to render a plea bargain meaningless, in general, since it will very strongly discourage criminals from accepting plea bargains in future cases. But there’s nothing saying the court is obliged to honor the bargain. And if the judge turns out to disagree with the deal struck, then ... that’s just the risk the defendant takes.

But it’s laughable to suggest that right wing hatred of the French is rooted in anything approaching evidence-based assessments.  The French are an easy target because they have more words for wine than “red” and “white”, and that includes the every day salt of the earth working people.

Well, yeah. They’re also, as noted, easy targets for other, totally valid reasons. If there’s one nation out there more self-absorbed than the US ....

Comment #67: ballast  on  09/29  at  03:30 PM

“So every fugitive killer secretly thinks he or she was allowed to take a life? “

Not all, some.  Einhorn did, for example.  And Polanski’s subsequent quasi-rape of Natassja Kinski seems to indicate that, yes, he does believe that he’s entitled to do this.

Comment #68: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  03:30 PM

Judge: “I don’t accept the plea deal.  I want a higher sentence which fits the crime.”
Roman and chorus: “Trickery!  Trickery!”...
 

No… not my argument.  Don’t like the deal and want a higher sentence, go to trial. 

ANd…

It’s a plea bargain, not a promise bargain. You’re pleading guilty to beg the lenience and mercy of the court. You’re not entitled to demand it. Christ, we’re talking about crime and punishment, here, not “Let’s Make a Deal.”

I will allow that there are degrees to which the judge might depart from a plea agreement which would be okay, but not on big issues like no jail vs jail time.  That is just lying.  And I think you oversimplify the nature of the plea bargain process. It isn’t always just to beg for the mercy of the court necessarily, it is to avoid a trial.  It can be in the State’s favor to avoid a trial also.  Even innocent people might make a plea deal in certain situations.

And…again…. I am not saying that he shouldn’t be punished. Do it right.  Honor the deal or go to trial.  Do things the same way for all defendants.

The motion to dismiss by Polanski is here… http://talkleft.com/legal/polanskimotion.pdf ...

/lawyer shit for the day, maybe week or month…

Comment #69: racymind  on  09/29  at  03:33 PM

I hope I didn’t sound harsh, Jeb.  I was just explaining, sorry if it seemed otherwise.

Comment #70: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/29  at  03:34 PM

I’m glad you’re giving up the lawyer shit, racymind.  Like Rumpole says, you have no talent for it, old dear.  Your argument is shite is a more honest way of phrasing it: Polanski got what he bargained for, what he expected, and you are arguing that he should be magically protected in a way that no other criminal defendant is. 

And regarding “trickery”, yes, yes that is your argument.  If that troubles you then that troubles me not at all: iyou just don’t have the backbone to face what you are actually saying, and its implications.  You and Polanski make a nice pair of moral cowards.

Comment #71: seeker6079  on  09/29  at  03:37 PM

Sasquatch:

Where did you get the idea that conservatives think rape is a good thing?

From listening to what they say.

Comment #72: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  09/29  at  03:39 PM

That’s really disappointing coming from Jerralyn Merritt.

Comment #73: samanthab.  on  09/29  at  03:42 PM

Racymind, are you a lawyer in the state of California? 

Do we have any such here who can shed some light on this? Because the “but the mean old judgy was going to be meeeeaaaan to poor lil’ Roman Rapist ....” whine is after its time.

Comment #74: Ms Kate  on  09/29  at  03:43 PM

racymind:

I will allow that there are degrees to which the judge might depart from a plea agreement which would be okay, but not on big issues like no jail vs jail time. That is just lying.

Seriously, you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. There are several very good procedural reasons why judges wear severe black robes and sit behind a giant desk. It’s not just an affectation.

Plea deals are provisional agreements between prosecution and defense attorneys, neither of whom are capable of making legally-binding decisions without the approval of a judge. A plea deal doesn’t mean a damn thing until a judge signs off on it, and if your deal isn’t to the judge’s liking, that’s your tough shit.

Comment #75: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  09/29  at  03:55 PM

It’s real simple: if Mr Polanski had been just a run-of-the-mill factory worker who’d run back to his home country, once arrested there’d be no defenses of him at all.

Comment #76: Dana  on  09/29  at  04:00 PM

wikipedia was wrong then: Polanski’s dad was in Auschwitz, not Polanski. He posed as a Gentile to get through the war.

Comment #77: Hector B.  on  09/29  at  04:00 PM

77: Why would it be disappointing for a defense attorney to be concerned with judicial propriety and adherence to California sentencing statutes? As someone who interacted with judges in an administrative setting, I knew that if I discussed a pending case with them outside of the presence of the defense counsel, he/she would either have to cut me off and admonish me with a threatened ethics complaint, or risk having any decision of theirs completely nullified. In this case, it was another prosecutor not even assigned to the case who engaged (in his own words) with ex parte communications with the judge, over the objections of the actual prosecutor, probation officer (whose report recommended no more jail time), assigned to the case, and of course defense counsel.

Earlier this year, Judge Peter Espinoza essentially agreed, but rightfully came to the conclusion that he couldn’t rule on the motion to dismiss while Polanski was out of the jurisdiction. So, I agree with his being detained and extradited, but I think the conclusion is that there’s no more substantive jail time in his future. I do not subscribe to any school of thought excusing his crime, nor do I think that he’s “been punished enough,” nor do I think that the victim’s wishes are dispositive. But the judicial misconduct whine is definitely not after its time.

Comment #78: norbizness  on  09/29  at  04:03 PM

“Honor the deal or go to trial.  Do things the same way for all defendants.”

“Honor the deal or go to trial” is not how we do it for all defendants.  In my state its not how we do it for ANY defendant

Comment #79: jefft452  on  09/29  at  04:05 PM

Let’s not let the stupid, selective hypocricy of the right-wing’s sudden interest in important matters blind us to the fact that in this case a lot of the rage against the oh-so-special chattering classes is actually right and proper and spot-on.

No.  Absolutely Not.  No Fucking Way.  In That Order.  The whole point of the “Your Help Is Not Needed” part of the headline of this post is that these idiots on the right now howling for Polanski’s head on a pikestaff are motivated by ugly, hate-filled impulses, chief among them the urge to score a “hit” on the Buh-Ree-Snortin’, Law-Taye-Slurpin’ Hollywhudd Lybh’rul ‘Lee-Tists & Their Depraved, Decadent Lifestyles by sending Polanski to jail.  Compare their behavior now re: Polanski vs. when all the ugly details re: Ah-Nuld’s decades-long swinish behavior started bubbling to the surface.  They coddled Governor Enron right into the Governor’s Manson.  And just look at how well that experiment is turning out.

Polanski is one of my favorite directors, right up there in the top 10.  He drugged, raped & sodomized a 13-year old girl & then fled the country to avoid the consequences.  He deserves to go to jail for all of this.  Period.  Pointe Finale.

Comment #80: Smartpatrol  on  09/29  at  04:06 PM

If I may explain some aspects of the european reaction. It is not really a different attitude about rape or sexual child abuse. It is illegal and illegal for ages here in Germany to have sex with a child, that is with a person not yet 14 years old. The law isn’t different in France or Poland or Switzerland either. That is the reason Switzerland will extradite him: committing a crime also punishable in Switzerland.

That said, he couldn’t be prosecuted or punished in Germany now because of the statute of limitation. The time limit for prosecution and trial would have run out long ago. The time limit for execution of punishment after a trial is longer but would have run out too. We have generally statutes of limitation for all crimes. Only murder hasn’t a statute of limitation for historical reasons.

I assume that the situation in France , Poland etc,. is similiar.  In most european countries his crime would not be punishable anymore since several years.

Statutes of limitation are a good thing generally and the more severe american system is in that aspect somewhat unusual.

So we would not punish him “after all this time” and this would be general rule, not a privilege.

In my opinion though, that is his problem. Nobody forced him to commit a crime in a jurisdiction without a statute of limitation.

Comment #81: _IM_  on  09/29  at  04:09 PM

A plea bargain is an exchange of a guilty plea for a recommendation by the prosecutor.  It’s not a guaranteed sentence. It guarantees nothing from the judge. This is the bargain: The defendant agrees to plead guilty. The prosecutor agrees to make a specific recommendation for sentencing.

The judge isn’t part of that negotiation, isn’t bound by it, and it isn’t cheating or lying if the judge refuses to accept.

Polanski agreed to plead guilty. The prosecutor agreed to make a specific recommendation for sentencing. The judge accepted the guilty plea and rejected the recommendation.

Polanski got exactly what he bargained for: a lenient recommendation on sentencing from the prosecutor.

Comment #82: Dawn  on  09/29  at  04:16 PM

That said: Fleeing the country to avoid jail, I entirely understand. If I were ever to face imprisonment and that option were available to me, I’d give it a try. Hell, even without the prospect of jail time, I’ve given a fair amount of thought to fleeing the country.

Well, yeah, no one wants to go to jail.  But that’s why things like fleeing the scene of a car accident are crimes in and of themselves even if it’s found that there was no criminal act in the accident—we can’t set up a system where if you can get away clean, there’s no harm, no foul.

Comment #83: Mnemosyne  on  09/29  at  04:18 PM

Statutes of limitation are a good thing generally and the more severe american system is in that aspect somewhat unusual.

I’m not totally sure, but I don’t think this is a statutes of limitation issue.  IIRC, what happens when a suspect flees before or during trial is that the whole thing is basically put on hold and is no longer subject to the statute of limitations.  Otherwise, you could have people skip bail, disappear for 10 years (or whatever the limit on their crime is) and then come waltzing back, secure in the knowledge that they were able to outwait the prosecution and now they can’t be touched.  It’s the difference between “we don’t know or weren’t able to prove who committed this crime until years later” and “we have a guy who was on trial or ready to be sentenced who skipped town when it looked like things weren’t going to go his way.”  Polanski was prosecuted in plenty of time, he just chose to hide out rather than accept his punishment.

Comment #84: Mnemosyne  on  09/29  at  04:23 PM

I just wanted it on the record that it is evidence-based to loathe their political classes, especially most of the Gaullists.

Fair enough.

Comment #85: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/29  at  04:27 PM

IRC, what happens when a suspect flees before or during trial is that the whole thing is basically put on hold and is no longer subject to the statute of limitations.

For that matter, what about the fact that he already submitted a guilty plea? He’s not being convicted of a crime that happened years ago - he was convicted of it then and escaped sentencing.

Comment #86: ballast  on  09/29  at  04:27 PM

ballast:

He’s not being convicted of a crime that happened years ago - he was convicted of it then and escaped sentencing.

Important distinction: a plea is not a conviction. By definition, you can’t have a conviction without a trial.

Comment #87: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  09/29  at  04:36 PM

Fair enough. IANAL, if you didn’t guess.

Comment #88: ballast  on  09/29  at  04:46 PM

This really bothers me:

A plea deal doesn’t mean a damn thing until a judge signs off on it, and if your deal isn’t to the judge’s liking, that’s your tough shit.

So justice is a crapshoot after all.  Doesn’t matter if you confess with a good faith understanding that you will get a lighter sentence/lesser charge; the judge can just throw out your agreement, and then you have a confession that will stand against you at trial (if you even get one?).  What sane person would accept a plea bargain then, unless the prosecutor came armed with a signed statement from the judge beforehand that the agreement would be upheld?  Fuck that, just always say “not guilty” and take your chances.  At least that way you’re guaranteed due process and a fair trial (in theory).  Especially if you really are innocent, never ever ever accept a plea bargain just to avoid a trial and move on, because an unfriendly or prejudiced judge can screw you over.

Is the judge vacating a plea agreement grounds for a successful appeal?

There are several very good procedural reasons why judges wear severe black robes and sit behind a giant desk. It’s not just an affectation.

I don’t care if they wear a tutu and clown shoes and ride into court on a unicycle, a deal in good faith should be a deal, and breaking a deal is reneging.  What a farce our judicial system can be.  Can humans do anything right?

None of this is to defend Polanski in any way.  What he did was illegal.

Comment #89: liberalrob  on  09/29  at  04:46 PM

And Polanski’s subsequent quasi-rape of Natassja Kinski seems to indicate that, yes, he does believe that he’s entitled to do this.

What?  That relationship wasn’t rape, statutory or otherwise.  Amanda explicitly stated that Polanski thought he had the right to rape a child.  Kinski was of legal age in Germany at that time—just because it may have been bad judgement and indicated a predilection for uncomfortably young women, doesn’t in any way support a judgement that Polanski considered drugging and raping an underage girl to be beyond reproach.

I appreciate AM’s insights into the possible emotional and rational motives of wingnuts, MRAs, and other retrograde rubbish.  In the abstract this works.  In the case where one’s mental landscape can be discerned with clarity from unambiguous word or deed, it occasionally works.  Claiming to see into the hearts of specific individuals based on lazy extrapolation should be avoided.

Comment #90: Tommy Deelite  on  09/29  at  04:47 PM

Seriously, you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. There are several very good procedural reasons why judges wear severe black robes and sit behind a giant desk. It’s not just an affectation.

My you are such a pleasant fellow… blah, blah , blah to you.  “Procedural reasons judges wear severe black robes”?  Nice phrase! How dramatic!! And scary!  Does it make any sense?!

In your experience, how often do judges significantly alter the terms of a plea deal without allowing the defendant a chance to withdraw a plea? Go ahead and answer in my absence. A percentage would be great.  If I am wrong, I will be happy to say I don’t know what I am talking about. Happy happy happy.  Hell, I just heard some shit in law school and had some drinks with solo practitioners years ago.

Racymind, are you a lawyer in the state of California?

Do we have any such here who can shed some light on this? Because the “but the mean old judgy was going to be meeeeaaaan to poor lil’ Roman Rapist ....” whine is after its time.

I am a nonpracticing TX lawyer.  Minimal criminal experience before going back to other lines of work, but I have worked a plea deal before on a felony sexual offense.  It wasn’t my area and I found it nerve wracking.

It isn’t about a “meeeaan judge” or “pooor Roman”.  I have avoided emotional tags as much as possible.  I have tried to remain on subject about the plea process… is an emotional response required?

And, what norbizness said in #82:

So, I agree with his being detained and extradited, but I think the conclusion is that there’s no more substantive jail time in his future. I do not subscribe to any school of thought excusing his crime, nor do I think that he’s “been punished enough,” nor do I think that the victim’s wishes are dispositive.

Comment #91: racymind  on  09/29  at  04:48 PM

“I’m not totally sure, but I don’t think this is a statutes of limitation issue.” IIRC, what happens when a suspect flees before or during trial is that the whole thing is basically put on hold and is no longer subject to the statute of limitations.”

As I tried to explain, we have two different statutes of limitation.  On starts to run after the crime is committed, say for example ten years. After the indictment, during the trial and so on it is put on hold. But even counting this interruptions, the term will run out after twice the original term, in this example twenty years. (Vollstreckungsverjährung, § 78 StGB - statute of limitation regarding prosecution) 

  “Otherwise, you could have people skip bail, disappear for 10 years (or whatever the limit on their crime is) and then come waltzing back, secure in the knowledge that they were able to outwait the prosecution and now they can’t be touched.”

That is the second case of statute of limitation. If you vanish after trial and sentencing, the punishment can be executed for up to 25 years and without time limit for life sentences. (Vollstreckungsverjährung, § 79 StGB, statute of limitation regarding punishment).

So Polanski could neither be prosecuted nor punished in Germany, 31 years having passed now.*

And I assume - mind you assume- that the law in France and Poland is similiar.

* Not sure about the prosecution, time limits of statutes of limitations regarding child abuse now quite long here. But the laws were milder in 1977, so it would have lapsed probably during the nineties or so.

Comment #92: _IM_  on  09/29  at  04:50 PM

I think the best defense I’d heard was that he plead guilty and the judge negated it for a show trial - continuing in his absence when he fled.  The judge totally could have set a continuance for the trial, for which France would have extradited Polanski.

So it’s totally the judge’s fault he was able to wander around free via that wrinkle in the law.

Of course, that’s the only defense I’ve heard that’s reasonable.  I don’t care that he’s a talented artist - he violated someone else’s rights.  I don’t care that it’s statutory, she said no, which was worse.  Yes, it’s not pedophilia, but that doesn’t make it not assault.

I don’t know what’s appropriate sentencing in this case, though.  I’d go for public service, probation, things which are more humiliating than confining.

Comment #93: Crissa  on  09/29  at  04:52 PM

Mnemosyne is correct that the statute of limitations isn’t applicable in this case because the statute of limitations limits the time the state has to bring charges against the defendant after the commission of the crime.  Charges were filed within days of the complaint.  Polanski’s flight made the statute of limitations null and void.  You can’t escape charges by simply fleeing for a designated period of time.

Plea bargains are always a crapshoot in this country because they are largely left to prosecutorial discretion which means these things will be dependent upon pressures on the prosecutor (financial, political, time), the quality of your defense team, etc.

There was likely judicial misconduct and, you know what?  The legal system dealt with that and the judge was removed—but Polanski had already fled.  We’re not talking about the people of Tulia, TX who were convicted based on the testimony of a single ambitious and racist cop, we’e talking about someone who had a lot of resources at his avail and very easily could have appealled any decision made by the judge.  But, really, 40 fucking days. 

But I would note the Polanski defenders are not noting the judicial misconduct in his favor.  The judge let him—while awaiting sentencing—to leave the country and go to Europe for filming.  Do you imagine that most defendants who have just made guilty pleas for felonies get similar dispensation?

Comment #94: pennylane  on  09/29  at  04:56 PM

Woody Allen, Pedro Almodovar and Martin Scorsese have “demanded the immediate release” of fellow filmmaker Roman Polanski, who was arrested in Switzerland on a U.S. arrest warrant related to a 1977 child sex charge.They were among 138 people in the film industry who signed a petition against the arrest
http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Movies/09/29/polanski.filmmakers.protest/

This is really bad.  This actually is what feeds the right wing’s rants against “hollywood values” which they then claim are “liberal values” and use against Democratic politicians.

And you know, I’m a liberal, and those aren’t my values.  And I think that any liberal taking this stance better rethink post hasty.

Comment #95: JennyLI  on  09/29  at  05:04 PM

I have far more sympathy for Polanski fleeing the country than for the rape.

Wow. Ever been anally raped? You might feel differently if you had.

Comment #96: slingshot  on  09/29  at  05:05 PM

You know what Crissa, maybe Polanski should get the poor man’s judicial treatment.  Let’s sentence him to stand outside of a mall wearing a sandwhich board that reads “I RAPE CHILDREN”.

Comment #97: JennyLI  on  09/29  at  05:08 PM

Sorry racymind, 42 fucking extra days for sodomizing and raping and drugging a child is not a “significant” altercation of any agreement.  What utter bullcrap.

Comment #98: JennyLI  on  09/29  at  05:09 PM

So justice is a crapshoot after all.  Doesn’t matter if you confess with a good faith understanding that you will get a lighter sentence/lesser charge; the judge can just throw out your agreement, and then you have a confession that will stand against you at trial

We’ve been over this.  Yes. 

What sane person would accept a plea bargain then, unless the prosecutor came armed with a signed statement from the judge beforehand that the agreement would be upheld?  Fuck that, just always say “not guilty” and take your chances.

This is why judges rarely decline plea bargains.  In this case, though, the judge decided that the child-rapist who was showing no remorse really deserved those extra forty-odd days.  Outrageous, I know. 

a deal in good faith should be a deal, and breaking a deal is reneging.

As Dawn pointed out, the deal was not with the judge, it was with the prosecutor, and Polanski got exactly what he bargained for from the prosecutor.  No one reneged.

None of this is to defend Polanski in any way.  What he did was illegal.

Why even bother to toss this in?  Seriously.  The bulk of your post makes it clear what you really care about.

Comment #99: Seraph  on  09/29  at  05:11 PM

I think the conclusion is that there’s no more substantive jail time in his future.

I find it hard to believe that fleeing the jurisdiction is not in itself a crime.

Comment #100: keshmeshi  on  09/29  at  05:15 PM

Woody Allen, Pedro Almodovar and Martin Scorsese have “demanded the immediate release” of fellow filmmaker Roman Polanski, who was arrested in Switzerland on a U.S. arrest warrant related to a 1977 child sex charge.

Is having Woody Allen at the top of the list really going to help?

Comment #101: pennylane  on  09/29  at  05:18 PM

LOL, I know right?

Comment #102: JennyLI  on  09/29  at  05:24 PM

Woody Allen, Pedro Almodovar and Martin Scorsese have “demanded the immediate release” of fellow filmmaker Roman Polanski, who was arrested in Switzerland on a U.S. arrest warrant related to a 1977 child sex charge.

And David Lynch and Monica Belluci and the goddamned Weinsteins…

It’s one thing to avoid a rapist’s films; how about the films of all of his direct rape apologists?  The ‘boycott approach’ just got even more complicated, for those who’re compelled to follow it.  I don’t envy you guys.

Comment #103: Ranylt  on  09/29  at  05:34 PM

I would say that there’s probably not a lot of people who want to put Polanski in prison for the original 42 days or whatever. But now that he’s flaunted the system by escaping from justice for 30 years, there’s going to be a lot of pressure on the prosecutors to make an example of him for that. I think it’s most likely that his lawyers will try to drag out the extradition proceedings until Polanski is either dead or so old that people don’t want to see him in prison. He’s in his late 70s already.

Comment #104: sophronia  on  09/29  at  05:36 PM

By not a lot of people, I meant not a lot of people in the D.A.‘s office. I for one would have no problem with putting him in prison for the amount of time he would get for the crime if he were tried today, which is considerably more than 42 days.

Comment #105: sophronia  on  09/29  at  05:38 PM

I would say that there’s probably not a lot of people who want to put Polanski in prison for the original 42 days or whatever. But now that he’s flaunted the system by escaping from justice for 30 years, there’s going to be a lot of pressure on the prosecutors to make an example of him for that.

Yep.  As I’ve said in other threads, at this point, the prosecutors probably aren’t thinking that much about the original crime.  They’re thinking about the fact that this guy fled the country and thumbed his nose at them for 30 years.  That’s not the kind of thing prosecutors take kindly to, especially when it’s someone rich and powerful.

Comment #106: Mnemosyne  on  09/29  at  05:42 PM

Marc Rich also fled the country to avoid a prison sentence.  He, too, was wrong to do that.

Why even bother to toss this in?

Because if I didn’t, everyone would say I was trying to defend Polanski.  So in order to forestall that, I had to plainly state it in black and white.  Not my first rodeo here.

Seriously.  The bulk of your post makes it clear what you really care about.

Not in my experience.  Also, just out of curiosity:  what do you think that is, “what I really care about?”

As Dawn pointed out, the deal was not with the judge, it was with the prosecutor, and Polanski got exactly what he bargained for from the prosecutor.  No one reneged.

QED on having to explain precisely what is being said.  OK, the judicial system reneged on the deal.  Is that a better way of putting it?  The judicial system, as represented through the avatar of the prosecutor, offered a plea deal:  confess in exchange for a lesser charge.  Then the judicial system, as represented through the avatar of the judge, did the Lucy-pulling-the-football-away-from-Charlie-Brown trick.  So the lesson I take away is:  don’t make a deal with the judicial system unless you get it in ironclad writing.

Comment #107: liberalrob  on  09/29  at  05:53 PM

Sorry racymind, 42 fucking extra days for sodomizing and raping and drugging a child is not a “significant” altercation of any agreement.  What utter bullcrap.

Hmm… I have read the motion to dismiss which includes copies of the plea agreement, the probation report and the evidence of judicial and prosecutory misconduct. That isn’t the whole story.

Whether 48 extra days is significant or not is, I guess, debatable.  I have never spent one day in the psych ward of a maximum security prison, which is where he was to go.  And then there is the deportation issue, which wasn’t a part of the plea deal either.

Comment #108: racymind  on  09/29  at  05:53 PM

Ya know, Law and Order isn’t real, but they do show some of the judicial process. One of things I learned from it was that plea bargains are a deal between the DA’s and the defendents. The judge just ratifies it, if they feel it’s appropriate to do so.

There was this one episode where Jack had to offer a slap-on-the-wrist deal, to get the plea. When the judge heard it, they went ‘What? You did this and you’re only this sentence? I don’t think so…’ which got the criminal the harsher sentence Jack really wanted.

It’s possible that Polanski’s star status is what got him such a sweetheart deal in the first place. Hollywood has it’s own “Village” (using Digby’s term for the DC Insiders). I wholeheartedly agree with the additional 40odd days he was going to get. It was the least of what the man owed society for raping and sodomizing a 13year old girl.

Comment #109: KMac  on  09/29  at  05:55 PM

Why are people having trouble acknowledging that both the fact that Polanski raped a 13-year old girl AND the fact that there was judicial misconduct (if there actually was any, which isn’t obvious to me) could be true? These are independent events; just because the second took place doesn’t mean the first isn’t prosecutable. The kicker of course is that Polanski fled the country, which means that excavating the judicial misconduct is going to be incredibly difficult if at all possible. But that doesn’t change the fact that he raped this girl and he should be brought to justice for it, even if it’s 30+ years later.

Comment #110: Jerry Vinokurov  on  09/29  at  06:11 PM

Because if I didn’t, everyone would say I was trying to defend Polanski.  So in order to forestall that, I had to plainly state it in black and white.  Not my first rodeo here.

I know.  That sort of thing happens to you a lot, doesn’t it?  Funny, that. 

Helpful tip: after you’ve spent a whole post ranting about the unfairness of a judge reneging on the judicial system’s deal and sentencing a child rapist to an additional forty-odd days, no one is going to be much impressed by a half-hearted one-liner of a CYA disclaimer like “None of this is to defend Polanski in any way.  What he did was illegal.”

What he did was drug and anally rape a thirteen-year-old, then flee the country when it looked like he might be sentenced to forty-odd days instead of “time served”, like he was promised in his plea bargain! 

If you’re more worried about the way you think the judicial system “should” work than that, well, see below.

Also, just out of curiosity:  what do you think that is, “what I really care about?”

Either or both of two things, depending on how much I’m willing to take your statements at face value:

1) The slim possibility that a judge will ignore the recommendation of a prosecutor and pass a harsher sentence on someone who offers a plea bargain, despite the fact that this is a) rarely done, so as not to discredit the plea-bargain system and b) an extreme case, with a remorseless child-rapist…whose “harsher sentence” amounted to less than a month and a half in any case. 

2) Defending Polanski without getting piled on by the other posters.

Comment #111: Seraph  on  09/29  at  06:18 PM

So the lesson I take away is:  don’t make a deal with the judicial system unless you get it in ironclad writing.

Hope you don’t work for Bank of America, because pretty much this exact thing just happened to them.  And yet the entire judicial system has not collapsed because OMG! The judge refused the terms of the plea deal and everyone knows the judge can’t do that without destroying the whole system!

Comment #112: Mnemosyne  on  09/29  at  06:21 PM

Okay, from what I understand about the case, what the Polanski’s defenders are arguing is that the prosecutor advised the judge in some fashion or another to ignore the plea bargain - in other words, they made the bargain but were hoping not to have it honoured. That would indeed be unethical. I don’t know whether or not that’s true (I haven’t read the details of the case), but it’s something I’ve heard in more than one place, and it’s different than criticizing the judge for not honouring a bargain he wasn’t party to.

Regardless, what Polanski did was intolerable. If the original trial was questionable, that does not mean he should get off, particularily after fleeing the country.

Comment #113: HonestB  on  09/29  at  06:30 PM

Also, from what I understand about the original plea deal, it was for 90 days in jail, so his lawyers were actually trying to get a reduction in what they’d agreed to.  The judge wanted to hold them to the original deal of 90 days, so Polanski fled.

Comment #114: Mnemosyne  on  09/29  at  06:34 PM

Also, from what I understand about the original plea deal, it was for 90 days in jail, so his lawyers were actually trying to get a reduction in what they’d agreed to.  The judge wanted to hold them to the original deal of 90 days, so Polanski fled.

You could try reading it.

Comment #115: racymind  on  09/29  at  06:41 PM

HonestB—it was not the prosecutor in this case that attempted to persuade the judge but a different District Attorney.  It was improper but not a case where the prosecutor lured in the defense with an offer they knew the judge would refuse.

An amusing legal note.  One of the answers to “why now” is that Polanski’s lawyers, in filing to have the case dismissed last year, made hay out of the fact that the U.S. has not been pursuing Polanski which they argued indicated that offense was not considered grave.  To disprove this theory, the U.S. began pursuing him.  Oops.

One of the reasons judges have some discretion in the process is to avoid placing all of the power of the plea bargain in the hands of prosecutors.

Comment #116: pennylane  on  09/29  at  06:47 PM

You could try reading it.

Sure, give me a link.  And please note that I’m looking for the original plea deal, not the revised one that Polanski’s lawyers submitted.

Comment #117: Mnemosyne  on  09/29  at  06:51 PM

Sure, give me a link.  And please note that I’m looking for the original plea deal, not the revised one that Polanski’s lawyers submitted. 

Is it revised?  Hell, I admit I have only remember reading the one submitted by Polanski. I haven’t the energy this lifetime to go through that 200+ page motion again if that allegation is referenced there and I missed it. I know the original case file was lost.

Burn him at the stake using my flaming ACLU card to light the fire. I am tired.

Comment #118: racymind  on  09/29  at  07:06 PM

Ah, here it is, from Wikipedia:

Under the terms of the plea agreement, according to the documentary Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired, the court ordered Polanski to report to a state prison for a 90-day psychiatric evaluation, but granted a stay of ninety days to allow him to complete his current project. Under the terms set by the court, he was permitted to travel abroad. Polanski returned to California and reported to Chino State Prison for the evaluation period, and was released after 42 days.

So Polanski didn’t actually complete the terms of the plea agreement—he was supposed to be in jail for 90 days and was only there 42 days.  That’s where the “he needs to serve 48 more days” thing comes from.

If I were the judge overseeing the plea agreement and the defendant served less than half of what he agreed to and then argued that he shouldn’t have to serve any more time despite his plea agreement, I might start rumbling about tacking on some extra jail time, too.

Comment #119: Mnemosyne  on  09/29  at  07:21 PM

I saw a commentor at Jezebel - I don’t post there it’s not my style, but I read it sometimes - say that she had been sitting around feeling like shit, depressed and upset because of all of the people, stars and Whoopi etc, defending Polanski.  And she googled and somehow found Jezebel.  And all she said was, thank you, thank you, thank you.  She had been raped.  And it made me think of how much pain these fucking assholes are causing to an untold and unknowable number of women and underaged girls, who have been sexually abused.  These assholes and their petitions “demanding” this and demanding that.  The unbelievable assholery of Debra Winger’s pretentious bullcrap statement. 

The pain they are causing.  Some of these women will find Jezebel, or they’ll find Pandagon, or they’ll find Feministing, Feminste, etc.  And they’ll feel thankful to have a place where they can talk to others who get it.  And hopefully that will make it a little better.  But some of them will never find any of those places, and some of them are sitting out there tonight, hurting, in pain, because of these assholes and their “demands”.

And that’s when I who always separated art from artist, find it very difficult to defend doing so on this.  I feel like giving Martin Scorsese a dollar the way I feel like giving Glenn Beck a buck.

Comment #120: JennyLI  on  09/29  at  10:16 PM

There’s Shakesville too.  Melissa has written some great stuff on this subject in these past few days; some of it fiery, some of it funny, and all of it eloquent.

Comment #121: Blue Jean  on  09/30  at  12:03 AM

Can humans do anything right?

No. They cannot. That’s why all moral and judicial decisions should be left to kittens.

Comment #122: banisteriopsis  on  09/30  at  04:58 AM

Has anyone else noticed the way gender essentialists and christians tend to use non-personal nouns to describe people? Male instead of man, female instead of women, humans instead of people. It’s a small distinction, but it seems indicative to me. And they always do it in threads where sexual violence is a topic.

Not that liberalrob is either, but he did feel the need to bring up the imperfections of the justice system in a thread about a rapist (finally, hopefully) being sentenced, and reference god while he was at it.

Comment #123: banisteriopsis  on  09/30  at  05:05 AM

racymind:

In your experience, how often do judges significantly alter the terms of a plea deal without allowing the defendant a chance to withdraw a plea?

Who gives a shit? How often judges actually do it in practice isn’t the point.

Comment #124: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  09/30  at  06:44 AM

Amanda, there’s a difference between defending his defenders (which you ain’t doing) and criticizing the right wing assholes for being right for once (which, to be fair, you are doing).

What seeker said. You weren’t defending Polanski or his ass-kissers; you were saying that they wouldn’t be that way except that the screechy wingnuts started it first. Of course the reason the wingnuts are criticizing Polanski has nothing at all to do with an objective and appropriate hatred for his crime; if it had been, I dunno, Milton Friedman, they’d be the ones screeching about jackbooted government thugs and it’s not a big deal (like they usually do whenever rape is at issue).

I am offended, not all that deeply though, at your indulging in righteous outrage and claiming you’ve been accused of something horrible, when you’ve merely been accused of sloppy thinking. If you’re not doing so as a deliberate rhetorical tactic then please consider that “Amanda, you made a boo-boo” does not mean “Amanda, you condone rape”.

racymind, there are blogs where the “You’re wrong, asshole, no I don’t have to tell you why, oopsie I’m too tired to back up what I said so stop picking on me” flies on the wings of eagles. This is not one of them.

Comment #125: mythago  on  09/30  at  11:28 AM

“The pain they are causing.  Some of these women will find Jezebel, or they’ll find Pandagon, or they’ll find Feministing, Feminste, etc.  And they’ll feel thankful to have a place where they can talk to others who get it.  And hopefully that will make it a little better.  But some of them will never find any of those places, and some of them are sitting out there tonight, hurting, in pain, because of these assholes and their “demands”.”

Lawyers, Guns and Money, specifically Scott Lemieux and Paul Campos, are fighting the good fight on this, as well.

Comment #126: witless chum  on  09/30  at  12:13 PM

I am commenting at this late date because so few other commenters seem to have my opinion about the matter.  First of all, I don’t care whether Polanski is famous, rich, a great artist, or all or none of the above.  I am, however, astonished and dismayed that so few people seem to give any weight to the opinion of his victim, Samantha Geimer.

To me, her take on all this is more important that all the legal wrangling and finger-pointing about condoning rape.  She is 45 now, and if she thinks the incident with Polanski should be water under the bridge, then as far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it.  Ms. Geimer has apparently stated publicly that she thinks Polanski should be let go and the charges dropped.  I am not so much upset that most commenters think her opinion is wrong as that they think it is irrelevant.

Sorry, Ms. Marcotte.  I agree with you most of the time, but on this one, I think you are just wrong.

Comment #127: Gordon  on  09/30  at  01:16 PM

Gordon, that’s not how justice works. Those aren’t her calls to make.

Comment #128: annejumps  on  09/30  at  01:19 PM

“I am not so much upset that most commenters think her opinion is wrong as that they think it is irrelevant. “

Not irrelevant in general, but entirely irrelevant to the issues at hand. 

I am deeply suspicious of people who make this “listen to the victim” argument.  Since when does society listen to rape victims?  Interesting, in a really sick and twisted way, that the moment the victim says to drop it, suddenly NOW you listen to her.  If it means letting a coward rapist off the hook, NOW her opinions matters.

As Melissa at Shakesville recently wrote, her reasons to forget this are not the same reasons people supporting polanski have for wanting this forgotten.

And her opinion is not irrelevant in general, but it is entirely irrelevant regarding legal issues.  As has been noted a million times already, that is simply not how the justice system works.

Comment #129: Gypsy Lee  on  09/30  at  01:35 PM

Yeah, that’s really gross. I’m sure if she said Polanski should be hung by his balls from the ceiling, they’d all be clucking about how this is really the victim’s call to make.

Comment #130: junk science  on  09/30  at  01:46 PM

i hate to even have to make this argument, but the other point here, vis-a-vis the victim’s feelings on this matter, is that she is not the ONLY victim here. crimes, under our laws, are committed against people, yes, but also against the society that the criminal lives in. now obviously, society is not a victim in the same visceral sense that this victim is. but each girl, each woman who watches polanski walk free is learning that her society does not care about her physical, intellectual or emotional safety.

yes, polanski harmed this victim THE MOST, but she is not the only one harmed. and that’s why we have the judicial system—because crimes are against all of us.

the other thing to remember, as melissa pointed out, is that what this victim has said she wants is for this to be over. it would have been over years ago. the reason it isn’t—mr. polanski. the press are at fault, yes. but nobody made him run.

Comment #131: sophiefair  on  09/30  at  02:20 PM

Comment #73: racymind on 09/29 at 02:33 PM

And I think you oversimplify the nature of the plea bargain process. It isn’t always just to beg for the mercy of the court necessarily, it is to avoid a trial.  It can be in the State’s favor to avoid a trial also.  Even innocent people might make a plea deal in certain situations.

You’re confusing form and intent.  The accused’s goal in pleading guilty may be to avoid trial, but the form of the guilty plea is still to beg for the mercy of the court.

The fact that innocent people often make plea deals is a flaw of our court system, actually.

And…again…. I am not saying that he shouldn’t be punished. Do it right.  Honor the deal or go to trial.  Do things the same way for all defendants.

Why do you keep insisting that the judge treat at arms’ length with a defendant who has admitted guilt to a crime?  The job of the court after that admission is to decide on a fair punishment of the guilty party, not to negotiate with them.

A judge’s job is to ensure that the case is resolved fairly to all of its parties.  The parties in a criminal case in the USA are the people and the defendant.  A plea bargain is a process whereby the defendant pleads guilty to specific charges, and the prosecutor suggests to the judge a resolution to the case.  The judge decides whether the resolution is fair to the defendant and the people, and if so, accepts it.  The judge may reject the prosecution’s suggestion either as too lenient or too harsh; this puts the onus on the prosecution and the defense counsel to suggest a truly fair resolution to the case.

Basically, in our court system, the parties’ counsels in a dispute are encouraged to negotiate a fair solution between themselves.  The court is responsible for making sure that that negotiated solution is in fact fair, and has final authority over whether to accept the negotiated solution or not.  This is supposed to keep the parties’ legal counsel honest; they must only suggest solutions that they think that the court will accept.

So basically, if the prosecution in Polanski’s case suggested a solution with no jail time in exchange for a plea bargain, and the court refused to accept that solution, it means that both the prosecution and the defense messed up.  The prosecution made an offer that was too lenient given the nature of the crime that was being pleaded, and would have let Polanski off too easy; the defense should also have known this, and should not have expected to actually get it so good from a guilty plea.

Comment #132: sacundim  on  09/30  at  02:32 PM

Gordon:

To me, her take on all this is more important that all the legal wrangling and finger-pointing about condoning rape.  She is 45 now, and if she thinks the incident with Polanski should be water under the bridge, then as far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it.

He might be square with her, but the state of California’s a little more hard-nosed.

Comment #133: The Sasquatch  on  09/30  at  02:52 PM

eah, that’s really gross. I’m sure if she said Polanski should be hung by his balls from the ceiling, they’d all be clucking about how this is really the victim’s call to make.

That sounds like an appropriate punishment to me.

Comment #134: The Sasquatch  on  09/30  at  02:54 PM

Since when does society listen to rape victims?  Interesting, in a really sick and twisted way, that the moment the victim says to drop it, suddenly NOW you listen to her.  If it means letting a coward rapist off the hook, NOW her opinions matters.

That is in need of being re-posted, it’s so wrenchingly true and illuminating.  So are all the comments in this vein:

I’m sure if she said Polanski should be hung by his balls from the ceiling, they’d all be clucking about how this is really the victim’s call to make.

My heart goes out to his victim, but if we left justice up to victims, we’d be leaving a bloody trail a mile wide in the wake of most legal cases.  There’s a reason such things are left to the (relatively) disinterested.

Comment #135: Ranylt  on  09/30  at  03:39 PM

sophiefair at #137, and sacundim at#138: QFT.

Comment #136: seeker6079  on  09/30  at  04:37 PM

The latest—France no longer supporting Polanski’s release:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8283707.stm

Comment #137: Ranylt  on  09/30  at  10:25 PM

Let me clarify somewhat.  First of all, I do not “support” Polanski.  I don’t give a rat’s rootie-patootie whether he lives to be 100 or drops dead tomorrow.

Regarding several comments that the justice system does not work in the way I suggested, certainly Ms. Geimer does not have any legal authority to dismiss the charges.  On the other hand, prosecuters make decisions all the time about which cases they will or will not prosecute, if for no other reason than simple manpower constraints.  Somewhere, someone made a decision to go after Polanski.  Under the circumstances, I think that was a bad call.

Comment #138: Gordon  on  10/01  at  05:07 PM

“Somewhere, someone made a decision to go after Polanski.  Under the circumstances, I think that was a bad call. “

yeah, you’re right. It’s such a bad call bringing justice to a disgusting rapist and fugitive.  They should have let him go.  After all, he’s just a child rapist.

Comment #139: Gypsy Lee  on  10/01  at  05:58 PM

Gypsy Lee, I do not appreciate your insinuation that I think child rape is an unimportant crime.  My point is, and always has been, that the expressed wishes of the victim not to prolong this further should carry some weight.  Furthermore, turning the celebrity argument on its head, I submit that no prosecutor would have shown any interest in Polanski at this late date if he were not famous.

Comment #140: Gordon  on  10/02  at  02:18 PM
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