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NYT op-ed on same-sex marriage presents a compromise

Legal IssuesLGBT

Is there any way to compromise on the matter of civil marriage when it comes to the LGBT rights movement and the religious right? David Blankenhorn and Jonathan Rauch think there is and outline it in the op-ed “A Reconciliation on Gay Marriage” in the NYT. They believe we are at an impasse and both sides need to find common ground. Hear them out.

It would work like this: Congress would bestow the status of federal civil unions on same-sex marriages and civil unions granted at the state level, thereby conferring upon them most or all of the federal benefits and rights of marriage. But there would be a condition: Washington would recognize only those unions licensed in states with robust religious-conscience exceptions, which provide that religious organizations need not recognize same-sex unions against their will. The federal government would also enact religious-conscience protections of its own. All of these changes would be enacted in the same bill.

...Whatever our disagreements on the merits of gay marriage, we agree on two facts. First, most gay and lesbian Americans feel they need and deserve the perquisites and protections that accompany legal marriage. Second, many Americans of faith and many religious organizations have strong objections to same-sex unions. Neither of those realities is likely to change any time soon.

Further sharpening the conflict is the potential interaction of same-sex marriage with antidiscrimination laws. The First Amendment may make it unlikely that a church, say, would ever be coerced by law into performing same-sex wedding rites in its sanctuary. But religious organizations are also involved in many activities outside the sanctuary. What if a church auxiliary or charity is told it must grant spousal benefits to a secretary who marries her same-sex partner or else face legal penalties for discrimination based on sexual orientation or marital status? What if a faith-based nonprofit is told it will lose its tax-exempt status if it refuses to allow a same-sex wedding on its property?

OK. I have a problem with this already, though I see where they are trying to accomplish—getting same-sex couples access to the rights and benefits of civil marriage and cede the word marriage to those who cannot decouple it from religious marriage in their heads. Obviously, Kate and I would take that considering we have no recognition in our state and won’t unless action comes from the feds or SCOTUS, but Blankenhorn and Rauch’s solution, by accommodating the “misunderstanding” about the word marriage—rather than redefining it (something that has occurred countless times in the past), chooses to draw an institutionalized line of discrimination. Many of the same excuses for bans on interracial marriage revolved around religious objections to it, with scripture cited about the morality of race mixing. Would they have suggested an entire new federal civil institution be created to resolve the problem because the American people weren’t ready?

More below the fold.
It’s about long and short term gain. Blankenhorn and Rauch believe the escalation of the conflict rolling out in lawsuits around the country and the patchwork of rights in the states make it a necessity to find middle ground in an expedient manner.

Cases of this sort are already arising in the courts, and religious organizations that oppose same-sex marriage are alarmed. Which brings us to what we think is another important fact: Our national conversation on this issue will be significantly less contentious if religious groups can be confident that they will not be forced to support or facilitate gay marriage.

..Linking federal civil unions to guarantees of religious freedom seems a natural way to give the two sides something they would greatly value while heading off a long-term, take-no-prisoners conflict. That should appeal to cooler heads on both sides, and it also ought to appeal to President Obama, who opposes same-sex marriage but has endorsed federal civil unions. A successful template already exists: laws that protect religious conscience in matters pertaining to abortion. These statutes allow Catholic hospitals to refuse to provide abortions, for example. If religious exemptions can be made to work for as vexed a moral issue as abortion, same-sex marriage should be manageable, once reasonable people of good will put their heads together.

And now, the finger-wagging:

In all sharp moral disagreements, maximalism is the constant temptation. People dig in, positions harden and we tend to convince ourselves that our opponents are not only wrong-headed but also malicious and acting in bad faith. In such conflicts, it can seem not only difficult, but also wrong, to compromise on a core belief.

But clinging to extremes can also be quite dangerous. In the case of gay marriage, a scorched-earth debate, pitting what some regard as nonnegotiable religious freedom against what others regard as a nonnegotiable human right, would do great harm to our civil society. When a reasonable accommodation on a tough issue seems possible, both sides should have the courage to explore it.

Sorry to say, our opponents are acting in bad faith. They attempt to sway positions with outright lies, such as conflating homosexuality with bestiality, thus leading to, say,  man-goat nuptials, something that has nothing to do with any sane religious conviction, btw. That’s extremism and intellectually bankrupt fear-mongering. The problem with the religious right is that they don’t want any compromise, because the ultimate goal is to have government intervention and control on all matters of sex and reproductive freedom—those are issues that extend way beyond civil marriage or social security benefits for same-sex spouses.

If anything, the marriage equality movement has been the faction constantly forced into compromise in the form of separate and unequal domestic partnerships and civil unions. These are incremental gains that have had a positive impact on same-sex couples, but it has also created this patchwork faux equality that is causing the legal machinations we are seeing.

The flawed premise of this op-ed is that both sides of the issue have equal power; that’s illogical. The side on the status quo in this case holds the power and doesn’t want to cede any of it, obviously, because it sees that granting the power of civil equality is threat to its vision of the country and the existence of marriage as they understand it. The side of social change always has the uphill battle, and the law leads, not follows the people when it is a contentious issue. And even when the law extends civil rights, that doesn’t mean the public is ready to or willing to accept that change. We’re clearly still fighting race-based civil rights issues, and that reflects a society that has not fully matured on the matter. It will be no different as LGBTs win civil rights, one by one.

In making compromises to tamp down the conflict that make Blankenhorn and Rauch so uncomfortable, we all must go in with our eyes open that the impact of compromise may have unintended consequences that may take years to extract ourselves from by creating a separate and unequal system. Is it worth the price?  In Blankenhorn’s and Rauch’s compromise, it brings a host of rights to couples unable to obtain them because of the laws in their states. By rejecting compromise and working incrementally, those in states with few or no rights remain second-class citizens at any level for who knows how long (before the U.S. Supreme Court ultimately decides the matter).

So, Blenders…weigh in.

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Posted by Pam Spaulding on 10:00 AM • (95) Comments

So, through granting these special rights to religious organizations, we’d allow private hospitals owned by religious groups to not recognize the medical decision making or visitation rights that accompany marriage (or CUs).

Fuck it.

Comment #1: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  10:22 AM

Washington would recognize only those unions licensed in states with robust religious-conscience exceptions, which provide that religious organizations need not recognize same-sex unions against their will.

How colossally stupid. 

Our constitution already guarantees this right, and in fact even in terms of heterosexual marriage, religions are allowed to define the institution for themselves and decide who can get married in their religion or not as they see fit.  A divorced person whose original marriage was done by a Catholic priest cannot remarry within the Catholic church.  Episcopalians and Unitarians are happy to perform gay marriages.  I’m sure there are some crazy-ass fundamentalist sects who won’t perform interfaith marriages.  I’m not sure of any apt examples from non-Christian religions, but I’m sure they exist, too. 

Not to mention, of course, that religious marriage and civil marriage are two completely different things.

Comment #2: The Opoponax  on  02/23  at  10:33 AM

The analogy these architects of compromise make with the abortion issue is striking; they describe current laws permitting religious hospitals to refuse to handle abortions as a “success.” When in fact, the upshot in our current situation is, overall the success is on the “religious” side—de facto, women in huge and populous regions of our country have little or no effective access to abortion. And I am living in the middle of a reactionary Catholic household and thus witness the fanatical energy devoted to pre-empting the possibility of a FOCA bill, that would enact access to abortion as a right. Depending on how typical FOCA bills of the past (for as far as I know, there is no such bill currently in the hopper in either the House or Senate yet) would have been interpreted in courts had they been enacted, this “successful” compromise Blankenhorn/Rauch would be blown out of the water, perhaps—I’d guess, probably—and the Catholic healthcare system, which is very large and in many regions essentially all of it, would have to make good on its threats to shut down completely. But vice versa, the status quo as of now is not that much of a compromise either, is it?

If in fact the Catholics and other anti-choice types had been willing to live with real compromise, then there would be little pressure for a hypothetical FOCA bill, and there would be a parallel set of service providers—probably with federal subsidies, to achieve a decent approximation of equal access—willing and able to provide the reproductive services the Catholic system disdains. Would they, at this late date and under the gun of a possible sweeping FOCA bill, belatedly accept such compromise now? No, instead they are doing all they can to engage their parishioners in a massive lobbying campaign to preempt it and surely if they can be successful there, they will push back for even more restrictions on abortion and reproductive freedom across the board.

I think any grand compromises on the whole gay marriage thing need to be considered in the same political light. It could be that a real compromise, though by its nature it would compromise what ought to be recognition of a basic right, might be the best thing, but only if it is one where our side has the force to enforce our side’s gains and prevent them from being relentlessly eroded. The other side must demonstrate the good faith that if their phobias are respected enough to avoid triggering them, they won’t crusade at some later, more expedient time.

Frankly it looks easier as well as more principled to just go for total victory; any necessary compromises will arise as we reach our limits.

Comment #3: Mark Foxwell  on  02/23  at  10:45 AM

What if a church auxiliary or charity is told it must grant spousal benefits to a secretary who marries her same-sex partner or else face legal penalties for discrimination based on sexual orientation or marital status?

So fucking what? To me, “protect religious conscience” looks pretty much like people want to redefine the definition of the word “prejudice”. Ironic, huh?

Comment #4: pseudonymous in nc  on  02/23  at  10:45 AM

This is yet another example of High Broderism in the pursuit of cultural bipartisanship, isn’t it?

“No, fine European stock like you can’t marry the colored girl from the next block over, but if you want, you can marry the Jewish girl down the street and we won’t say <strike>anything</strike> too much…”

...sorry, no dice…

Comment #5: MikeEss  on  02/23  at  10:48 AM

What if a church auxiliary or charity is told it must grant spousal benefits to a secretary who marries her same-sex partner or else face legal penalties for discrimination based on sexual orientation or marital status?

I thought explicitly religious organizations were exempt from this sort of thing, anyway? 

Besides which, it’s usually the actual insurance company that has say-so about whether someone can be on their spouse’s insurance.  A coworker of mine is trying to get his husband on his health insurance - he started with his union, but they deferred him to the insurance company itself. 

I would also guess that most religious groups and charities don’t offer much in the way of benefits, anyhow, especially at an entry-level, admin, or semi-volunteer level.  So it’s kind of a moot point unless it’s a huge organization or you’re a pretty high ranking employee.  In which case if the group is so conservative, they’re unlikely to hire someone who is openly gay and in a same-sex marriage at such a high level.

Comment #6: The Opoponax  on  02/23  at  11:13 AM

When has “Separate but Equal” ever been anything but segregation?

Frankly, I think the better compromise would be civil unions for all. Make the legal elements of marriage a purely secular affair, like getting a driver’s license, and let “marriage” be the religious ceremony without state recognition. 

Any wedding ceremonies are performed at the church’s discretion, but are not officially recognized by the state. That way, the catholic church can refuse marriage ceremonies to gays and divorcees, weird little cults can marry people to blocks of cheese, and everyone else can celebrate their union however the hell they want, with people who are actually happy to see them get together.

Of course, since that makes churches _less_ involved in government, it’s probably less of a compromise and more of a groundwork for a more perfect separation of church and state. Still, it would allow churches to continue to behave lik the racist relatives at a family reunion, so that might be enough of a bone to throw them. raspberry

Comment #7: Left_Wing_Fox  on  02/23  at  11:14 AM

Make the legal elements of marriage a purely secular affair, like getting a driver’s license,

We have that. It’s called a civil marriage license.

Comment #8: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  11:17 AM

You may have that, MAJeff.  But I don’t.  Civil unions between partners of the same sex are not allowed in MN.

Comment #9: BadKitty  on  02/23  at  11:48 AM

I had a similar take on it when I saw the Op-Ed piece—not much of a compromise, frankly. And I think the right-wing side of the argument is worried—before, they were hoping to get the Federal Marriage Amendment passed; now, they’re just scrambling to hold on to the word “marriage.” But they know it’s over, that it’s just a matter of time before same-sex couples get either marriage or something close. I want the whole deal, and I won’t stop agitating until that happens.

Comment #10: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  02/23  at  11:53 AM

This is a compromise, so comments like “colossally stupid” aren’t inappropriate, but I think this would be progress, and for that reason may be worth consideration.

I’ve always looked at marriage as having two components, religious and civil.  The latter is what confers rights upon the couple to shared property, benefits and so on.

The practical effect of this proposal, I suspect, would be to grant LGBT unions the civil right to marriage.  The religious component would be up to individual churches to decide.  Isn’t this basically what we want? 

I don’t believe anybody who advocates marital rights for LGBT people is saying they should be able to force any particular church to grant them a wedding.  That would be unconstitutional, and besides, who the hell would want to get married in a church like that anyway?

If LGBT people want to marry in both the religious and civil sense, this compromise would give them their civil marriage, and they could get their religious marriage from a denomination that is open to them, eg United Church of Christ.

This certainly isn’t the ideal solution, but still…  Isn’t this a step in the right direction?

Comment #11: ummeli  on  02/23  at  11:56 AM

You may have that, MAJeff.  But I don’t.  Civil unions between partners of the same sex are not allowed in MN.

He means the idea that civil marriage should be separate from religious marriage.  That’s the exact system we already have.

Comment #12: The Opoponax  on  02/23  at  11:56 AM

I’m just not getting what the point of this whole religious conscience objection. First it sickeningly equates panty-sniffing, bedroom-spying homophobes to the Mennonites and Quakers who were jailed for resisting the draft. Second it’s a brainless declaration anyway. Churches have the right to impose any restrictions they chose on the people THEY marry. Many Catholic dioceses have a long approval process for interfaith couples. Most religions have a counseling requirement. Many rabbis refuse to marry any interfaith couple. All of these would be illegal if they were applied to civil marriage, but are just fine because church officials are bound by the rules of their organization and there is no constitutional right to get married in a particular ceremony.
The longer this debate wears on, the more convinced I am that Left_Wing_Fox’s solution is the correct one. The French system of pure civil marriage (union if it will make people less panicky).

Comment #13: histro-geek  on  02/23  at  11:57 AM

Just what level of “need not recognize” are we talking about here? I see they’ve already given away the family health coverage; does that apply to survivors’ benefits for a pension too?  As mentioned above, health care proxies and family visitation rights? Take your children to work day?

Under this “compromise”, can the Disco Ball establish the principle that all church-based opposite sex marriages are an abomination, so that people who follow its teachings may legally refuse to grant family benefits to straight couples and their children? I thought not. Religious discrimination once again.

Comment #14: paul  on  02/23  at  11:58 AM

Ahh.  I misunderstood Jeff.  Thanks, Opoponax.

Comment #15: BadKitty  on  02/23  at  11:59 AM

The NYT is sufferring from their typical “earnest liberal” weaknesses. They listen to right-wingers scream that legalized gay marriage will result in “discrimination” against them, and the NYT takes these worries at face value and comes up with a compromise that would address these fears, in the hopes that doing so would pave the way for gay marriage.

The right wingers are not actually worried that gay marriage legalization would discriminate against the. They just don’t like gays and don’t want them to be married. Simply “addressing” whatever shibboleth they’re using to demagogue the issue and stir up paranoid opposition isn’t going to change their opposition to gay marriage, which they oppose on principle.

Comment #16: Tyro  on  02/23  at  12:03 PM

He means the idea that civil marriage should be separate from religious marriage.  That’s the exact system we already have.

Yup.

Comment #17: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  12:04 PM

This is a compromise, so comments like “colossally stupid” aren’t inappropriate, but I think this would be progress, and for that reason may be worth consideration.

How so?  It would be a baby step forward for gay rights, and about a gazillion steps backwards for religious freedom.  Something which is already protected, on a variety of levels, by the constitution and federal government.  Ultimately we would end up less free for it.

At best, this is suspicious over-legislation of something that is already well outlined in federal law.  At worst, it’s basically a carte blanche opt-out for religious groups in terms of civil rights.  Would you really be OK with accepting a watered down version of gay marriage that specifically underlined religious groups’ right to discriminate?

Comment #18: The Opoponax  on  02/23  at  12:05 PM

The religious component would be up to individual churches to decide.

That is the way it works with marriages, currently, gay or straight. Churches have the right to refuse to perform a wedding between any couple they wish, if the couple doesn’t not meet whatever requirements the church has for couples to get married.

Comment #19: Tyro  on  02/23  at  12:12 PM

If we have learned nothing else from the last few decades, we should at least have learned that you cannot take the religious right at its word on, well, anything. They are extremists, and whatever “compromise” they offer is worthless. Give them “ok, nurses who don’t want to won’t have to do abortions” and the next thing you know that compromise means women are being denied emergency contraception after rape, or having their scripts torn up by deranged birth-control-hating pharmacists.

I feel no need to compromise with people who truly believe, deep down, that giving women and gays equal rights in our society is a bad and sinful thing; this outlook poisons all their views, and makes them actors in bad faith.

And the lessons of segregation are not that far in the past; I think we can use them as a good reason to turn this down. Separate but equal is never actually equal.

Comment #20: emjaybee  on  02/23  at  12:13 PM

Well, at least with a quick reading, this sounds like exactly the kind of compromise that gets my vote.

I’ve told you before—though most chose not to believe me—that my sole objection to legal same-sex marriage is that it would be used to sue churches which refuse to perform them.  This compromise satisfies my objection.  Since most people here have said that my particular objection is irrelevant, and that this issue is about rights and not about words, I’d have thought there’d be more acceptance here, even if not wholehearted enthusiasm.

Comment #21: Dana  on  02/23  at  12:29 PM

We’ve already seen lawsuits from religious organizations who own or operate things that are not in the least religious - like the famous one where the church owned the beachfront pavilion that they rented out to the public for profit, but did not use for their own worship. They got all sorts of tax breaks on the property because they made it available to the public - until a lesbian couple wanted to use it for their (legally unrecognized) union ceremony, and the church refused on “religious’ grounds.

In principle, I guess I could consider a compromise where civil rights for same sex couples was recognized with robust protections for religious viewpoints, as long as there were parallel and equally robust protections defining what is not allowed to be consided covered. 

Churches should not be forced to perform weddings, nor unreasonably prevented from teaching whatever they want. But how clearly is what is going to be considered a religious organization (notice, they aren’t saying “church”) going to be defined? By its tax status? By registering with the state somehow? Or just by the owner announcing that they have religious principles?

Guarantee that if fuzzy “robust” protection is given to churches without clear definition, it will immediately be followed by hospitals and social service organizations, and small businesses and private practices will definitely follow.

The Catholic Church does not recognize divorce. But if they hire (and the do) a divorced person, could they get away with mailing half her check to her ex every payday? Can they legally refuse to include the spouse of a remarried non-catholic janitor on his insurance if it is offered to the other employees? I doubt it.

I absolutely guarantee that these proposed laws are going to be tightly crafted specifically about same-sex marriage. It will say that “same-sex couples” get civil unions, not “couples that are not recognized by organized religion.”

And the biggest thing that makes this compromise crap - and “colossally stupid” is that is takes for granted that there is universal agreement on the religious side that same-sex marriage is bad, and universal agreement among heterosexuals that a religious organization is required for marriage.

Saying that same-sex couples only get civil unions and that religious organizations are therefore free to marry people leaves the concept of civilly married heterosexual couples up in the air. Will they be “married?” And if so, by what logic? What about the same-sex couples who belong to religions that are perfectly happy to marry them? Why deny those churches the religious freedom to conduct marriages? Isn’t that discrimination against them and their beliefs? If ALL the civil benefits in the country, to EVERYBODY, got changed to civil unions, I could live with it - but I guarantee you, that will never happen. Straight couples who don’t go to church will validly complain, and the ones who do will be incensed at losing their “one-stop shopping deal” where their pastor acts for the state.

Comment #22: Lymis  on  02/23  at  12:35 PM

So, a compromise that allows religiously owned hospitals to refuse to recognize next-of-kin relationships is ok with Dana. Big shocker there.

Comment #23: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  12:37 PM

Churches should not be forced to perform weddings, nor unreasonably prevented from teaching whatever they want

And granting civil marriage rights to same-sex couples has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on those issues.  It’s a complete red herring.  There is no substance to complaints around this issue.

Comment #24: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  12:40 PM

Mostly compromise is seen as weakness on the part of the other side - by all sides.  Behold ... the edict - he who compromises has flinched.

Let’s be caustic.  If we are going to separate church & state, we must eliminate marriage.  Marriage is a sacrament in all religions.  Civil unions on the other hand have their origins in civil rights and contract law.  Civil unions are gender neutral in their inception and in their application.

1.  An act recognizing that marriage, as a religious ceremony is no longer recognized legally, without a civil union:  this can be a ceremony, a contract or other instrument devised by law.  Congress must do this.  This applies firstly to D-of-J,  I-R-S, Education, H-H-S & HUD.  States being inferior to Federal government,  need do noithing;  they’re out of it.
2.  Civil unions are restricted only to adults;  children need not attempt to qualify.  Absent informed consent, parental acquiesence included, a contract is not legal.  Children aren’t informed by law.  Because this is a contract between adults gender and any previous state is excluded from consideration.  Technically, one may contract with multiple parties; there is no reason to restrict this issue any furthewr than:  (1)  informed consent,  (2)  expressed consent recognized by signature,  (3)  all concurrent contracts are recognised and integrated and (4)  religious affiliation is declined or adopted by reference.
3.  The costs to disolve the contract are born at the initiation of the contract.  This assures us that all contracts may be disolved as easily as one (or two) would marry, now, and it will cost as much to form the union as it does now to disolve one.
4.  Dissolutions, being prepaid, are conducted through a bankruptcy proceeding - since the union is now bankrupt, but not the parties thereto.
5.  Grandfather marriages of duration greater than 20 years;  permit lawyers and licensed practitioners to set their own fees;  license a class of providers with boilerplate contracts - excluding religious practionioners, except those who - in writing - accept the concept of separation of powers, comprehend the separation of church and state and accept the legal inferiority of marriage with respect to civil union.
6.  Marriage as a sacrament is recognized as having no legal standing.
7.  The states & Commonwealths being subordinate may make laws more , but not less, restrictive in nature and or application.

Voila; c’est finis!

Comment #25: BimBeau  on  02/23  at  12:42 PM

I’ve told you before—though most chose not to believe me—that my sole objection to legal same-sex marriage is that it would be used to sue churches which refuse to perform them.

How?

No, really.  I would like you to explain this.  If divorced people cannot sue the Catholic Church to force their priest to marry them, if interfaith couples cannot sue their rabbi to force him/her to marry them, where is this lawsuit to force any church to marry everyone who shows up on their doorstep going to succeed?

A church is not a public accommodation—they can do anything they like within the walls of their church that’s not actually illegal.  So I’m not sure on what basis you’re picturing these lawsuits going forward.

If we’re going to base laws on imaginary fears, can I outlaw the monster under my niece’s bed?  I’m sure that will take care of the problem.

Comment #26: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  12:43 PM

Dana, if I thought that legalization of gay marriage would lead to people suing churches that refused to perform them, then I, too, would have a problem with that. However, I know better than to believe such propaganda and I’m not the sort of person who goes around grasping for any possible excuse I can find to object to gay marriage.

I’m also religious and well aware that plenty of churches decide to refuse to bless marriages for plenty of different reasons even though the state will allow such a couple to be married. The legal system seems to hold up against all of this. The difference is that my own religion has such a small presence in the United States that we would never expect the USA’s legal system to in any way reflect the laws of my church. I have the impression that other, larger church organizations seem to expect “validation” of their beliefs on the part of the secular legal system and feel threatened when it doesn’t.

Comment #27: Tyro  on  02/23  at  12:48 PM

We’ve already seen lawsuits from religious organizations who own or operate things that are not in the least religious - like the famous one where the church owned the beachfront pavilion that they rented out to the public for profit, but did not use for their own worship. They got all sorts of tax breaks on the property because they made it available to the public - until a lesbian couple wanted to use it for their (legally unrecognized) union ceremony, and the church refused on “religious” grounds.

In other words, they enjoyed the tax benefits of running a public accommodation ... until it turned out they were going to have to actually serve the public to get their tax break.  Then, all of a sudden, it was part of the church even though they’d allowed many non-church functions to take place there before.

If it means that churches would no longer be allowed to claim certain non-religious buildings were open to the public for rental and yet discriminate as they pleased, I wouldn’t have a problem with that.  Either you have a public accommodation that’s open to anyone who can fulfill the contract or you have a private accommodation that’s only used by your church members.  A hospital doesn’t get to decide which patients they’ll admit based on the patient’s religion.

Comment #28: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  12:52 PM

Give them “ok, nurses who don’t want to won’t have to do abortions” and the next thing you know that compromise means women are being denied emergency contraception after rape, or having their scripts torn up by deranged birth-control-hating pharmacists.

And similar stuff would begin to happen if you specifically put a conscience clause on gay marriage.  Next thing you know, parochial schools are expelling gay students, Catholic hospitals have a blanket policy against allowing same-sex spouses visitation rights (or worse, turning away gay patients for all but emergency treatment), conservative Christian pediatricians are turning away the children of gay families…  Where would it stop?

Comment #29: The Opoponax  on  02/23  at  12:54 PM

I’ve told you before—though most chose not to believe me—that my sole objection to legal same-sex marriage is that it would be used to sue churches which refuse to perform them.

Were this actually true, you would presumably take a look at countries wherein same-sex marriage is already legal and see if things work that way.  I live in such a country (Canada). Such lawsuits tend to go like this:

Lawyer:  Your honour, the plaintiffs…
Judge:  Go read section 2.a. of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms*.  Case dismissed.

* Like the Constitution, only Canadianer.

Comment #30: Alex, FCD  on  02/23  at  12:55 PM

Next thing you know, parochial schools are expelling gay students

They already are:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-school28-2009jan28,0,4594347.story

Comment #31: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  12:57 PM

I can easily see, for example, the non-recognition clause being used to let homophobic religious organizations fire anyone queer. If they’re civilly married/partnered, then they’re having sex out of (religiously defined) wedlock and thus setting a bad example for the laity. If they’re not, they’re probably thinking about it.

Comment #32: paul  on  02/23  at  12:58 PM

“If we’re going to base laws on imaginary fears, can I outlaw the monster under my niece’s bed?  I’m sure that will take care of the problem.”

...you can outlaw monsters under the bed, but only if it results in reduced rights for, and increased discrimination against, some group of people based on gender, ethnic heritage, sexual orientation, sexual expression, or age.

OTOH, if Dana thinks it’s a good idea, it obviously hasn’t been examined in enough detail yet…

Comment #33: MikeEss  on  02/23  at  12:58 PM

Much ado about nothing.  Yawn.

Comment #34: Magis  on  02/23  at  01:11 PM

I can easily see, for example, the non-recognition clause being used to let homophobic religious organizations fire anyone queer.

Isn’t that already happening too? It seems to me that in a compromise, both sides have to give something up, but so far I don’t see the right giving up much, unless we’re talking about the notion that LGBT people ought to have the same rights as every other citizen does.

Comment #35: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  02/23  at  01:15 PM

In case anyone is confused about the distinction I drew about about the difference between church property and a public accommodation:

If the weddings you allow in your beach pavilion must be presided over one of the ministers from your congregation, you have a church property.

If anyone can bring in any minister they please of any (or no) denomination to perform their wedding ceremony and all they have to do is pay you the fee, you have a public accommodation.

The church in Pasadena that we got married in was not a public accommodation, because you were required to have the ceremony performed by one of their ministers.  However, since Unitarians are non-creedal, you didn’t have to announce any beliefs in order to have their minister agree to do your ceremony.  She just had to talk to you first to make sure she was comfortable with you getting married.

Comment #36: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  01:18 PM

Were this actually true, you would presumably take a look at countries wherein same-sex marriage is already legal and see if things work that way.

Countries, hell. States.  Massachusetts has had same-sex marriages since 2004 (2003 if you count from the Goodridge decision).  In those five years, I haven’t heard of a single case of anyone suing a church to force them to perfom their wedding ceremony, let alone such a case succeeding, and there’s not a doubt in my mind that such a thing would be all over the media.

If I’m wrong - if there has been a case where such a lawsuit took place, and it wasn’t immediately dismissed, please link to some news stories about it.

Comment #37: Seraph  on  02/23  at  01:22 PM

Massachusetts has had same-sex marriages since 2004 (2003 if you count from the Goodridge decision).

The Goodridge decision wasn’t enacted until ‘04. No one got married in ‘03. It’s not really accurate to say we’ve had same-sex marriages since ‘03 because, well, we haven’t.

The “forcing churches to marry same-sex couples” trope is pure bullshit. There’s no substance to it whatsoever.

Comment #38: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  01:30 PM

Dana is, of course, talking crap.  As has been pointed out, divorced or interfaith couples cannot force the Church to officiate at their marriages.

Washington would recognize only those unions licensed in states with robust religious-conscience exceptions, which provide that religious organizations need not recognize same-sex unions against their will.

Would this mean supporters of same-sex marriage need not recognise religions against their wills?

Comment #39: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/23  at  01:35 PM

The argument that states need to enact protections from forcing religious institutions to perform weddings against their will is a total red herring and basically copping to a plea for something for which gay-marriage advocates are not actually even guilty.  No religious institution is or has been forced to do anything of the kind to date, and there’s no reason to believe that they would be, were gay marriage universally legalized.  When my Catholic aunt, for instance, married my Catholic uncle, they were barred from doing so in a Catholic church.  Reason: He was divorced.  As far as the state was concerned, he was free to marry again as often as he chose, but the church would have none of it.  And it was the church’s right to disallow it.  They have their own internal rules, so hey, no harm, no foul.  The same would apply to gay marriage.

We need to end this meme now.

Comment #40: jTuba  on  02/23  at  01:37 PM

Frankly, I think the better compromise would be civil unions for all. Make the legal elements of marriage a purely secular affair, like getting a driver’s license, and let “marriage” be the religious ceremony without state recognition.

Actually, this is not what we have. This is what most Latin American (and maybe some European? I don’t know) countries have. You get civilly married by a JP. Then, if you want and if you qualify, you get a church wedding. The church can’t marry you if you aren’t civilly married, but your civil marriage is what counts with the government. You could never have a religious marriage, and you would be just fine.

What we have here is the state giving you your marriage license, and then someone vested by the state - a JP or a minister of some sort - performing the ceremony and signing your license, which you then return to the state. But if a minister marries you, it is the religious ceremony that makes your marriage legal.

It might seem like a distinction without a difference, but I do think if we had this system, we might have less of an issue. Because the religious ceremony carries no legal weight whatsoever, the ability of religious groups to say “Wah, you’re making us do something we don’t like” is eliminated.

Comment #41: chingona  on  02/23  at  01:39 PM

If divorced people cannot sue the Catholic Church to force their priest to marry them, if interfaith couples cannot sue their rabbi to force him/her to marry them, where is this lawsuit to force any church to marry everyone who shows up on their doorstep going to succeed?

Exactly.

Comment #42: chingona  on  02/23  at  01:42 PM

This idea makes it more complicated than anything has to be.  Simply make civil unions the only legally recognized form of “marriage” for all couples regardless of who’s marrying whom.  Get all levels of government out of the “marriage business.”  Marriages will be only ceremonial functions performed by any religion.  Those religions that wish to include same sex partners in their definition of marriage, fine.  Those who don’t, fine, too.  From a legal standpoint, it doesn’t make a bit of difference.  The process of getting a civil union license from a county would be just the same as it is for getting a marriage license now, except it is no longer a marriage…it is a civil union, full stop.  No religious institution could be forced to perforn or forbidden from performing a marriage ceremony.  No religious ceremony by itself would be legally recognized as a civil union.

Comment #43: digitusmedius  on  02/23  at  01:44 PM

The Goodridge decision wasn’t enacted until ‘04. No one got married in ‘03. It’s not really accurate to say we’ve had same-sex marriages since ‘03 because, well, we haven’t.

Fair enough.  Then I won’t count from the Goodridge decision.

The “forcing churches to marry same-sex couples” trope is pure bullshit. There’s no substance to it whatsoever.

Of course.  But Dana peddles this disingenuous bullshit on every thread about same-sex marriage, and I’ve always believed that “put up or shut up” is the best answer for that sort of thing.  Not that Dana - or anyone like him - ever does shut up, but it shows the lurkers just how hollow their assertions are, and I’m always thinking in terms of educational opportunities for the lurkers.  Maybe it’s because both of my parents are teachers.

Comment #44: Seraph  on  02/23  at  01:44 PM

But Dana peddles this disingenuous bullshit on every thread about same-sex marriage,

It’s kind of funny that on a thread where the authors complain about accusations of acting in bad faith we get someone arguing in bad faith.  Dana babbles about this giving all the rights, and ignores how we’ve pointed out how this compromise doesn’t give all the rights.  Hospital visitation, medical and bereavement leave, family health insurance, pension…all of these could be denied by faith-based organizations under this “compromise.”  But the troll focuses on an issue that isn’t even an issue.  Surprise! Surprise!

Comment #45: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  02:20 PM

The authors of the opinion piece, while well-meaning, fail to realize that they are falling into a trap which mediators are trained to avoid: leaning on the more reasonable party to compromise because they are the party most likely to be reasonable and compromise.  Such mediators err in that they see reaching an agreement as the objective rather than reaching a fair agreement.  Since their objective is the reaching of agreement in and of itself they start to pressure the party most likely to “give” in order to produce enough “compromises” to reach an agreement; they lose sight of the fact that their conduct means that they have become de facto enablers of the other party’s refusal to compromise significantly or at all.

Comment #46: Camberwell House  on  02/23  at  02:27 PM

That’s not entirely true, MikeEss. Looking up Washington State, for instance, the state license is required to hold a ceremony (which may be religious or secular), but the ceremony itself (and the certificates produced by the one presiding over them) is required for the official recognition by the state. While this can be done usually through a secular system, such as a Justice of the Peace, churches are also allowed to act in their stead. This leads to the states often requiring licensing of specific clergy to be able to perform the ceremony, and act as a witness in the legal documents certifying the marriage.

http://www.usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/officiants_requirements/index.shtml

I’m suggesting that the ceremony itself be made completely optional to the eyes of the state, rather than an integral part of the process. Get out of licensing who can and cannot perform ceremonies completely, and leave the ceremonies as optional religious, community, or personal functions.

Comment #47: Left_Wing_Fox  on  02/23  at  02:32 PM

Get out of licensing who can and cannot perform ceremonies completely

The thing is that the legal system has basically dealt with the “licensing” issue by effectively allowing a legally binding marriage to be officiated by anyone who wants to, with only a token filing of basic paperwork. The state has basically dealt with their feelings about not wanting to pass judgment on what is and isn’t a “real marriage” by simply saying “anyone can do it.”

It’s become quite the trendy thing amongst secular young people to get a friend of the couple to file some basic paperwork and be “officiant for a day” and act as the guy who signs the paperwork after the ceremony is done.

I think even the most secular among us is uncomfortable with the idea that the public ceremony don’t “count” to the point where such a “only the civil paperwork counts” law would never fly with people.

Comment #48: Tyro  on  02/23  at  02:41 PM

It might seem like a distinction without a difference, but I do think if we had this system, we might have less of an issue. Because the religious ceremony carries no legal weight whatsoever, the ability of religious groups to say “Wah, you’re making us do something we don’t like” is eliminated.

I’m starting to head in this direction myself just because the whining of the religious right is becoming so deafening.  Take away the ability of ALL churches to perform legal ceremonies, have the legalities taken care of at the courthouse, and let people celebrate however they want.

Of course, then the whining will begin about how the mean ol’ gays are stopping everyone from having a church wedding because they all hate religion or some damn thing.

Comment #49: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  02:53 PM

Plus having the legal ceremony and the church ceremony will let me hop on my bandwagon of creating a requirement that a couple live together for a minimum of 1 (one) year before a marriage license can be issued.  Religious folks can have their religious ceremony so they’ll be married in the eyes of God, since they keep claiming that’s more important to them than the legal status, and everyone else can get married when the year is up or whenever they want to past that point.

...

Okay, did I just propose good old fashioned Scottish handfasting?  I should maybe stop reading so many historical novels.

Comment #50: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  02:56 PM

It’s become quite the trendy thing amongst secular young people to get a friend of the couple to file some basic paperwork and be “officiant for a day” and act as the guy who signs the paperwork after the ceremony is done.

Cool, I’m trendy.  My friend got him self ordained in the “Church of Secular Humanism”.  Took him about 5 minutes online.

Comment #51: Antigone  on  02/23  at  03:03 PM

I do want to see civil marriage secularized much more than it presently is. I used to work in a courthouse and witnessed a lot of civil marriages, and the wording the magistrate used always cited marriage as an institution instituted by God in the time of man’s innocence, for heaven’s sakes. I can see people from certain religious backgrounds arguing that gay people are in fact excluded from an institution where the legal wording cites the Book of Genesis. And as a person who does not necessarily believe in any God or Gods or in a time of man’s innocence, I would be uncomfortable forming a legal household by pledging to adhere to that idea. Of course, I also belong to the church in whose headquarters the Goodridges got married, so that changes my perception of the faith-based side of things. I know I can marry whoever in my church as long as he/she/ke/thir is an adult who wants to marry me, so it’s really only the state that I have to worry about.

Also, I want nothing to do with state-sponsored religious sacraments, now or ever, and I think the confusion of the federal institution and the religious sacrament has always been dangerous. I say this as the granddaughter of a good Catholic whose friends still give her hell because my mother didn’t bother to get her first, church marriage annulled when she got divorced. So according to them, all of her kids with my father are products of adultery. Nice.

Comment #52: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  03:06 PM

When the status quo starts talking about compromise, you know you’re about to win. This is the death kneel. The progressive states will start dominoing and I suspect within 4 years at least there’ll be a federal law upholding the validity of same sex marriages. The southern states will drag their heels for another decade at least as they always do, but they’ll be found with unenforceable laws and the like.

I can say this, because articles like this exist. Back a couple of years ago when we were talking about compromising their little feelings with civil unions or even domestic partnerships, they stomped their feet in the ground and whined. Now they’re trying that last ditch compromise and have retreated past their last secular argument. They aren’t even using the “people are against it, it’s too soon” argument nearly as often as you’d expect after Prop 8 considering that was the point of Prop 8 was to try and triumphalize the “will of the masses”.

Everyone can see the winds of change. It’s just a matter of time now. The arguments have always stunk and are all in bad faith. Civil Unions with full marriage rights ARE what we have now. It IS what we call civil marriage and every “concession” or “compromise” cedes that hard-won point. You don’t need God to get married and anyone can get married and treated as equals without the control of the Church. Talking about churches that in some regions, completely own all spiritual choices or control whole states, this is one of the pillars they want to fight. It’s not just about keeping their women down, denying their own sexual urges, or admitting the humanity of icky people, it’s also about eliminating those filthy heretic atheists and non-Real-True-Christians from being legally equal to them as well. They want to go back to a world where you had to be in good standing with the sole preacher of the town to be considered “lawfully wed” and where they could legally punish you if you weren’t and were found to be sexual or happy.

It’s about control and dishonesty.

We won the battle. They’ve conceded the point. What they’re “compromising” is what we’ve already got. That’s our point. We can sell that, convince the terminally stupid that reality exists, but it really doesn’t matter because they don’t have a legal point and eventually more and more courts will realize that and more and more families will have to compete with the fact that married homos don’t cause H-bombs and the lunatic fringe will be fringe on this issue again as they are in anti-contraception and anti-integration.

Comment #53: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  03:08 PM

This is what most Latin American (and maybe some European? I don’t know) countries have.

Most western European countries, I think, which is a byproduct of the French Revolution, the Code Napoleon, and Napoleon’s jaunt across Europe. Definitely the case in France, Belgium, Netherlands, and presumably inherited by Latin America. It went out of fashion in the German states after Napoleon, but Bismarck brought it back to deal with a multi-denominational united Germany. You can get by with just a religious ceremony in the UK and Spain, though there are a few civic requirements; a new German law allows a purely religious ceremony, but it carries none of the legal benefits and protections that come from the civil marriage, and has been criticised as a result.

In the meantime, drunk couples in Vegas will still be getting their licenses from the county board and having ordained ministers marry them off before the hangover kicks in.

Comment #54: pseudonymous in nc  on  02/23  at  03:11 PM

I can say this, because articles like this exist. Back a couple of years ago when we were talking about compromising their little feelings with civil unions or even domestic partnerships, they stomped their feet in the ground and whined. Now they’re trying that last ditch compromise and have retreated past their last secular argument. They aren’t even using the “people are against it, it’s too soon” argument nearly as often as you’d expect after Prop 8 considering that was the point of Prop 8 was to try and triumphalize the “will of the masses”.

As I’ve said before, I’ve been arguing the case since the Baehr days, and the ground has changed so far it’s incredible.  Gay marriage *will* come.

Comment #55: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/23  at  03:26 PM

...and presumably inherited by Latin America.

There were very strong anti-clerical movements in much of Latin America as a counter-reaction to the privileges of the church. I’m sure some of this is related to the French Revolution, and some of it are issues that arose locally later.

I used to work in a courthouse and witnessed a lot of civil marriages, and the wording the magistrate used always cited marriage as an institution instituted by God in the time of man’s innocence, for heaven’s sakes.

You would have loved civil marriages in Paraguay. Do you agree to abide by title II, subsection C, part 1, which states that you shall forsake all others and cleave only unto each other? Do you agree to abide by title II, subsection C, part 2, which states that you shall provide support to each other in good times and in bad? And on it went.

Couples did not kiss or exchange rings at civil ceremonies. Instead, the key moment is when they both sign their agreement to all the provisions. But everyone still gets drunk and parties afterward.

Comment #56: chingona  on  02/23  at  03:30 PM

In the parts of Latin America I worked in, people had common-law partners mostly. Which is another creative legal solution that I would like to see more of.

chingona, THAT is how I want to get secular-hitched if I get secular-hitched. And then some Unitarians can shake some chimes at me and throw glitter, or whatever it is that we do to marry people now. (Then we could have a potluck and contra dancing.)

Comment #57: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  03:39 PM

before the U.S. Supreme Court ultimately decides the matter

So we wait for the Supreme Court to say no then institute this idea? I’m not saying that’s a bad order to go in (better to go all the way and get shot down then to not try at all) but isn’t this the logical fall back position if the Court does say no? The idea is undoubtedly bigoted but I don’t see how it’s inherently stupid especially if we ever come to the point where there’s no other alternative to advance LGBT rights until the Court gets new membership. The other option would be to have a new Constitutional amendment but that process would take longer than the statutory route. So in the end as distasteful as it would be the rights of the LGBT community would still be the result of a majority vote.

Comment #58: Vincent N  on  02/23  at  03:45 PM

Contra dancing? Is that what it’s called when everyone’s all surly and glaring out at the empty dance floor? XD

Comment #59: kaninchen  on  02/23  at  03:50 PM

kaninchen, haha, we call that middle school.

Comment #60: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  03:51 PM

Why am I picturing the rest of the SCOTUS being held hostage at gunpoint by Scalia (or worse, Alito) if it is asked to decide on the legality of universal civil marriage/unions and it looks like it might get approved?...

Comment #61: MikeEss  on  02/23  at  04:01 PM

chingona: for what it’s worth, Wikipedia says that the post-independence civil codes in Latin America were cribbed from France, and then each other. It makes sense, not just from an anti-clerical perspective, but the one of ‘we have a new nation, now we need laws to suit a new nation’. (As opposed to the messy mess of the Anglo-American legal tradition.)

Comment #62: pseudonymous in nc  on  02/23  at  04:08 PM

In the parts of Latin America I worked in, people had common-law partners mostly.

Yes. I would say this is the most common arrangement, especially among the poor/rural classes. I think it used to be a lot more common in the States. You show up in some new place with a few kids, you’re obviously man and wife and who the hell would say any different?

Do most states still have common law marriage after a certain number of years or has that gone away in the legal sense? Anyone know?

Comment #63: chingona  on  02/23  at  04:11 PM

“Of course, then the whining will begin about how the mean ol’ gays are stopping everyone from having a church wedding because they all hate religion or some damn thing. “
Totally. You just can’t compromise with bigots.
I really think Cerberus is right. This article stinks of desperation because we are going to win and it may be a lot sooner then any of us expected. By the time I am ready to get married, I just may be able to do it!

Comment #64: AdamN  on  02/23  at  04:14 PM

I can see people from certain religious backgrounds arguing that gay people are in fact excluded from an institution where the legal wording cites the Book of Genesis.

Was that this particular magistrate’s choice, or The Official Wording?

Because I’ve seen a number of very, very secular weddings wherein the couple were married by a justice of the peace, and I don’t remember that part.  It could have just gotten lost in all the hoo-ha of the wedding ceremony (or the fog brought on by the open bar…), but I’ve definitely never noticed it.  I’ve noticed the word “god” used, though I’d guess it can be removed if desired.

Is there any one set of words that magistrates are required to use here in the USA?

Comment #65: The Opoponax  on  02/23  at  04:19 PM

Tyro wrote:

<bl;ockquote>Dana, if I thought that legalization of gay marriage would lead to people suing churches that refused to perform them, then I, too, would have a problem with that. However, I know better than to believe such propaganda and I’m not the sort of person who goes around grasping for any possible excuse I can find to object to gay marriage. </blockquote>

If you don’t believe that such a thing could happen anyway, then why would you have a problem codifying the protection to insure such?  After all, if your position is the correct one, it’s simply some extraneous wording.

Comment #66: Dana  on  02/23  at  04:37 PM

MAJeff wrote:

So, a compromise that allows religiously owned hospitals to refuse to recognize next-of-kin relationships is ok with Dana.

Except that this isn’t what this proposed compromise would do.  Next-of-kin status would be part of the legislation, and would be a legal status; a church would simply not have to recognize that as a marriage or face any penalties for refusing to perform wedding ceremonies for people those churches believe are ineligible to marry.

Comment #67: Dana  on  02/23  at  04:41 PM

chingona: for what it’s worth, Wikipedia says that the post-independence civil codes in Latin America were cribbed from France, and then each other. It makes sense, not just from an anti-clerical perspective, but the one of ‘we have a new nation, now we need laws to suit a new nation’. (As opposed to the messy mess of the Anglo-American legal tradition.)

That sounds right. The reason I hedged it at all is because I know of some specific things that happened post-independence that further reduced church power in certain countries (Mexico post-independence preserved many corporate rights of the church, but later on removed those corporate rights in the mid- to late-1800s, and then there was another wave of anti-clerical activity after the Revolution of 1910-20; Paraguay, on the other hand, saw attacks on the church by the Spanish Crown even before independence because the church was defending Indians too much and periods where the top bishop was appointed by the dictator at the time rather than the church itself), so I wasn’t sure if the change in marriage came in as part of the post-independence stuff or in a more hodge-podge manner at different points afterward and as a result of different pressures in different countries.

And the Church still has a lot of influence in some countries. I believe Chile didn’t have divorce until very recently, resulting in the highest rate of out-of-wedlock births in any Latin American country, not among young, never-married women, but older women who would have gladly married their new children’s father if they could only get divorced from their older children’s father. Not sure if their marriage is civil or not.

Comment #68: chingona  on  02/23  at  04:42 PM

Do most states still have common law marriage after a certain number of years or has that gone away in the legal sense? Anyone know?

It’s gone away in California, but we still have two kinds of marriage licenses:  public and confidential.  The confidential license is designed so that if you’ve been telling your neighbors (or they’ve been assuming) for years that you’re married, you and your partner can sneak down to the courthouse and be legally married without any nosy parkers getting access to your certificate to check your wedding date and make sure you were really married when you said you were.

It’s probably a pain in the ass for genealogists, but it’s interesting that they even felt they had to have that option to offer people.

Comment #69: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  04:43 PM

If you don’t believe that such a thing could happen anyway, then why would you have a problem codifying the protection to insure such?  After all, if your position is the correct one, it’s simply some extraneous wording.

Why not pass all constitutional amendments twice just to make sure it’s extra-super-special clear that we really mean it?

Comment #70: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  04:46 PM

Next-of-kin status would be part of the legislation, and would be a legal status; a church would simply not have to recognize that as a marriage or face any penalties for refusing to perform wedding ceremonies for people those churches believe are ineligible to marry.

Dana, please produce the court case where a Catholic church was legally forced to marry a divorced couple even though the Church believes they are ineligible to marry.

Thanks.

Comment #71: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  04:47 PM

Well, Dana, I’m really not going to engage your sophistry. You are the one who needs to come up with a rational explanation for your problems with gay marriage rather than coming up with non-existent boogeymen to justify your discomfort with the issue. All proponents of gay marriage need do is wait long enough for your objections to no longer be taken seriously and/or wait until you come up with a more honest one.

Comment #72: Tyro  on  02/23  at  04:48 PM

“Why not pass all constitutional amendments twice just to make sure it’s extra-super-special clear that we really mean it?”

...or three times just to make sure.  We wouldn’t want Dana staying up nights worrying about something like that…

Comment #73: MikeEss  on  02/23  at  04:50 PM

Next-of-kin status would be part of the legislation, and would be a legal status; a church would simply not have to recognize that as a marriage or face any penalties for refusing to perform wedding ceremonies for people those churches believe are ineligible to marry.

Bzzzzzt.  You really do enjoy arguing in bad faith don’t you?  You didn’t even read the fucking article. It flat-out says that the goal would be to provide exemptions for religious organizations that do not wish to recognize same-sex unions—and it even goes on to argue that an organization that employs a lesbian shouldn’t be forced to provide employment benefits for her legal partner.

The specific regulations involved allow religious organizations to not recognize same-sex unions.  The lack of recognition means that the contract does not exist in the eyes of that organization—so, a religious employer, or hospital, would not have to recognize the relationship. If no relationship exists in their eyes, they do not have to provide the benefits accompanying it.  That’s exactly what these religious exemptions are about. It’s not about being forced to marry someone—a red herring if there ever was one—but about the ability to keep from recognizing gay families as families.  It’s about special rights for religious bigots.

Comment #74: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  05:00 PM

I like how 10 different people point out that individual clergy and particular denominations refuse to marry people every day - and provide two specific examples - divorced Catholics who want to remarry and interfaith marriages for something like 80 or 90 percent of rabbis - situations that effect hundreds of thousands if not millions of couples every single year, and Dana just ignores that and argues something else.


@ Mnem

It’s probably a pain in the ass for genealogists, but it’s interesting that they even felt they had to have that option to offer people.

That’s pretty funny. My parents weren’t married until after I was born, and when I was a kid and would get family tree type projects in school or in Girl Scouts, I remember my parents telling me to write down that they were married the year before they actually were and then them trying to explain to me that there was nothing wrong or to be ashamed about but some people really just don’t know how to mind their own business so it’s better not to give them any ammunition you don’t have to. But I didn’t realize there actually was a legal work-around in some places.

Comment #75: chingona  on  02/23  at  05:10 PM

Just ignore Dana - he’s a bigot who’s set in his ways and won’t ever change, nor will he listen to facts.  He’ll just keep pushing the same bullshit, and refusing to pay attention to any facts brought up.

People like Dana get left behind when the rest of society moves forward, and they either realize they’re being left behind because of their outdated, ignorant views and get rid of them, or they fall farther behind all the time until they simply disappear.

Comment #76: Blue Fielder  on  02/23  at  05:11 PM

Well, Dana, I’m really not going to engage your sophistry.

Don’t you mean lies?

Comment #77: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  05:11 PM

Opoponax: Very good question. Since it was southern Appalachia, I think the magistrate’s cultural background probably held a lot of sway. My parents were married by a justice of the peace and said they wished they’d specified the low-Jesus wording instead of the super-Jesusy wording, which is what they got, this being the Bible Belt.

Nonetheless, any wording with “God” involved would be inappropriate for a secular civil wedding, yes? A religious marriage is a contract between a couple and God. A civil wedding is a contract between two people. I really think we could use to police this boundary better as a society.

Chingona, I have found you a convenient list of states that recognize common-law marriage.

Comment #78: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  05:19 PM

Does anybody here remembers Vera Lynn….
or State Rights?

Isn’t a “Federal Civil Union” quite outside the competence of the Federal Government? I will never understands where the taboos of american federalism apply and where not; it is difficult to decipher the shibboleth of “State rights”.
But probably it all has do with some four-letter word…

Comment #79: _IM_  on  02/23  at  05:28 PM

But let’s take stock.

a) same sex civil unions or marriages exist in four or five states;

b) a certain B. Hussein Obama has promised to repeal DOMA. If he is true to his word and if democratic congress concurs, there will be soon a federal recognition of civil unions and marriage in these states;

c) The compromise proposes federal recognition in the same five states under the condition of quite far-reaching religious exception clauses.

If the pro-marriage side takes this deal they are chumps.

Comment #80: _IM_  on  02/23  at  05:34 PM

same sex civil unions or marriages exist in four or five states;

Marriage: Massachusetts, Connecticut

Equivalent or nearly-equivalent Civil Union/DP: California, Vermont, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Washington, Oregon

Limited DP: Hawaii, Maine, Maryland

Currently, debate is occurring in New Mexico and Hawaii about expanding or enacting family partnerships to be more closely equivalent.

In New York, couples can go to next door Canada, MA or CT and get married, and the state will recognize them as married.

Comment #81: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  06:55 PM

Well, at least with a quick reading, this sounds like exactly the kind of compromise that gets my vote.

Of COURSE it does. Other people have already dissected your dishonest bullshit for the dishonest bullshit it is, so I’ll just content myself with pointing out that there’s a reason why this idea is perfectly OK with you” It’s a “compromise” in which you and your side get something, and the side for equal rights get nothing.

Comment #82: kristin  on  02/23  at  07:05 PM

Marriage: Massachusetts, Connecticut

And I do believe the Catholci Church exists in those States as well.

So, Dana, any actual cases you’d like to cite?  Dana?  Dana?

Comment #83: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/23  at  08:50 PM

In Massachusetts, Catholic Charities had to drop a century-old adoption program, because it could not comply with a state law which forbade discrimination against homosexual couples in the placement of children for adoption.  In California, Catholic Charities was required to provide contraceptiove coverage as part of their health insurance program, if they were going to maintain a health insurance plan. 

So far, again so far, there have been no lawsuits against a Catholic parish or the Church in general for declining to provide a same-sex nuptial Mass.  Then again, that doesn’t mean that such a lawsuit could never be filed, nor does it mean that such a lawsuit could never be won.  Given the odd results we’ve all seen from lawsuits in this country, I wouldn’t think that anyone would be surprised if such a suit was filed, and won.

Y’all lost on Proposition 8 by 52% to 48%; you needed only a 2½% shift to have won that vote.  Yet when presented with an argument that you claim wouldn’t matter anyway, you don’t want to make any compromises at all to try to get that 2½%.

And I have to admit it: I’m baffled by this.  If you don’t believe that a civil suit would ever be filed against a church for this, or that it could ever be won if it was filed, a compromise of this type doesn’t hurt your position in the slightest, yet you are very resistant.  What’s the point?

Comment #84: Dana  on  02/23  at  10:44 PM

I knew the zombie lies about Catholic Charities would come up!!!!!!

Indeed, I was hoping it would show up.

In Massachusetts, Catholic Charities was a proxy state agency! It was working specifically with the state to provide placements for children who were wards of the Department of Social Services. It was not working as a private adoption agency.  Catholic Charities itself was more than willing to continue providing adoption services, having already placed kids in something like 12 gay homes out of the over 200 it had placed.  Once this issue came to the fore (because of a Boston Globe investigative report), it was the Bishops who forced it to withdraw from the program, after the legislature refused to grant it a special dispensation to get around state law—while working as a proxy state agency!  The Bishops force Catholic Charities, over a unanimous vote of the Board of Directors, to withdraw from its role as a proxy state agency.

You just don’t tire of disingenuousness, do you Dana?

Comment #85: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  10:51 PM

And what’s even more hilarious, regarding the contraceptive coverage, Dana undercut his own lies about marriage ceremonies and made my point about providing family benefits and hospital next-of-kin recognition. He wants Catholic Charities—an independent agency—to not be required to follow state laws with regard to recognizing gay families. If they refuse to provide family health insurance, or if they refuse to acknowledge next-of-kin relationships in a hospital setting, that’s what he wants them to be able to do!!!!!  it isn’t about the Church itself and a ceremony, it’s about any organization being able to continue to discriminate against lesbian and gay families.  It’s about special rights to discriminate.

Comment #86: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/23  at  10:57 PM

Dana’s been asked for years to provide any evidence or examples whatsoever of a rabbi or a synagogue being sued because they wouldn’t wed a Gentile and a Jew, or a priest / church being sued because they wouldn’t wed two divorcees. He’s never done so, because he can’t: he just comes back to spout his crap again every time he thinks people have forgotten he ran away from the argument last tme. Dana is either fundamentally no-brains stupid, or he’s a lying hypocrite. As I don’t think Dana is that stupid he can’t remember he lost the argument last time and had to run away, I think that just leaves “lying hypocrite” for Dana.

Dana: In Massachusetts, Catholic Charities had to drop a century-old adoption program, because it could not comply with a state law which forbade discrimination against homosexual couples in the placement of children for adoption.

MAJeff: Catholic Charities itself was more than willing to continue providing adoption services, having already placed kids in something like 12 gay homes out of the over 200 it had placed.  Once this issue came to the fore (because of a Boston Globe investigative report), it was the Bishops who forced it to withdraw from the program, after the legislature refused to grant it a special dispensation to get around state law—while working as a proxy state agency!  The Bishops force Catholic Charities, over a unanimous vote of the Board of Directors, to withdraw from its role as a proxy state agency.

Yeah. And I pointed this out to Dana, with links, on his own blog, the last time he brought Catholic Charities up in this kind of argument. So this is yet another example of Dana either being too stupid to remember his example has already been shown to be wrong - or a lying hypocrite who knows his example is fake and is stll using it in argument because he hopes people won’t be as well-informed as Dana himself - and won;‘t know he’s lying.

Comment #87: Jesurgislac  on  02/23  at  10:58 PM

In California, Catholic Charities was required to provide contraceptiove coverage as part of their health insurance program, if they were going to maintain a health insurance plan.

And why?  Because the court determined that Catholic Charities was infringing on the religious rights of its employees—who were not all Catholic—by imposing their religious views on them.

Do you think employers should be allowed to impose their religious views on their employees, Dana?

Then again, that doesn’t mean that such a lawsuit could never be filed, nor does it mean that such a lawsuit could never be won.  Given the odd results we’ve all seen from lawsuits in this country, I wouldn’t think that anyone would be surprised if such a suit was filed, and won.

I would absolutely astounded if a lawsuit that allowed a blatant violation of the First Amendment won, and we have the most liberal circuit court in the whole country.  It would be like a court declaring that habeus corpus was no longer necessary ...

Oh, wait, that did happen.  No wonder you think our constitutional rights should be granted at the pleasure of the government instead of being inherent to us as citizens.

Comment #88: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  11:00 PM

MAJeff wrote:

  So, a compromise that allows religiously owned hospitals to refuse to recognize next-of-kin relationships is ok with Dana.

Except that this isn’t what this proposed compromise would do.  Next-of-kin status would be part of the legislation, and would be a legal status; a church would simply not have to recognize that as a marriage or face any penalties for refusing to perform wedding ceremonies for people those churches believe are ineligible to marry.
Dana on 02/23 at 11:41 AM

Dana’s stubborn holding his ground at least did provoke me to read the actual NYT op piece-well, skim it anyway.

Yep, it says what Pam said it said; yep, she quoted it honestly:

Further sharpening the conflict is the potential interaction of same-sex marriage with antidiscrimination laws. The First Amendment may make it unlikely that a church, say, would ever be coerced by law into performing same-sex wedding rites in its sanctuary.[to put it mildly, Dana—MHF] But religious organizations are also involved in many activities outside the sanctuary. What if a church auxiliary or charity is told it must grant spousal benefits to a secretary who marries her same-sex partner or else face legal penalties for discrimination based on sexual orientation or marital status? What if a faith-based nonprofit is told it will lose its tax-exempt status if it refuses to allow a same-sex wedding on its property?

The parts I bolded are the parts Dana is saying—am I getting this right, Dana? You agree to this?—are superfluous, and would be jettisoned in a real compromise he is willing to endorse—a simple, limited right of churches to perform marriage ceremonies only for those couples they see fit to. But—if we take Dana at his word here on this thread and others—that’s it. The stuff I bolded—the churches would have to take their legal chances with, same as any other corporate entity or individual. Thus, a Catholic high school would have to retain a competent gym coach, or chemistry teacher, or librarian, or even religious education instructor, even if she happened to be a woman who openly married (or civil unioned with, whatever) another woman. They’d pay the spouse/partner/whatever we say’s benefits in a comparable manner to how they’d benefit the same woman’s hypothetical male husband, had she chosen to marry such a person instead.  A Catholic charity, or a Pentecostal or Muslim one, would hire and retain and promote a gay man with partner the same as they would a straight one, and there would be no whining.

Is that a compromise you’d live with, Dana? Honestly, I doubt you can, and I doubt the Catholic Church can, or Pentecostals, or Muslims, or the vast majority of more or less organized religions across the board. I doubt that is what you’d put on the table, I’m damn certain those larger bodies would not, and I don’t think they would accept it as a compromise even under great pressure and with freedom to at least grumble.

And it’s not the “compromise” Blankenhorn and Rauch are offering either. (Notice, though, how in that cited paragraph they sandwich the real meat of the matter in the Wonder Bread of far-fetched fears about churches being forced to perform marriage ceremonies—they are pulling the same rhetorical sleight of hand Dana tries to do without admitting there is any meat at all—somewhat less disingenuous than Dana then, but not by much).  Since they have hardly been so specific as to offer a sample bill, for instance, they might be hard to pin down, but it is plain in their op piece that we are not just talking about the right to choose whose marriages they sanction in the sense of actually marrying them; they are talking about the right not to tolerate whatever types of couples they decide are offensive, on any of their premises, in any form. Logically, that would include not only being exempt from recognizing the spouse; it would imply the right to expel the “offending” first party completely off their grounds and ban them from all association. That’s the Blankenhorn and Rauch “compromise,” and so all this talk about whether or not churches can be forced to perform marriages and whether they should have some “harmless” extra language to put their irrational fears to rest on that score or not is pure distraction.

Comment #89: Mark Foxwell  on  02/23  at  11:16 PM

You know, I can’t believe that I forgot that the answer to any conservative’s worry is always, always, always projection.  Always.

Of course Dana thinks that liberals are going to ignore the First Amendment.  The president he voted for spent the past 8 years using the Bill of Rights as toilet paper.  The only way Dana (and other conservatives) can now justify their support of Bush is by convincing themselves that liberals will automatically do what Bush did in the opposite direction.  Otherwise, they’d have to admit that they elected a president who had absolutely no respect for the Constitution and laws of this country that he swore on a Bible to protect.

Comment #90: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  11:24 PM

Not ONE church in Massachusetts has been forced to perform a same-sex marriage against its doctrine.  Not ONE.  What the hell are these morons talking about?

Comment #91: Ellid  on  02/24  at  12:23 AM

And oh yeah.  “Separate but equal” was outlawed over fifty years ago.

Comment #92: Ellid  on  02/24  at  12:23 AM

In Massachusetts, Catholic Charities had to drop a century-old adoption program

Bull-fucking-shit.

You liar.

Catholic Charities did not have to do any such thing. It was not forced. It CHOSE OF ITS OWN ACCORD to stop providing a valuable service to those children and to the community rather than follow MA state law.

Catholic Charities couched its withdrawal in the ultimate in naval-gazing self-serving terms: ‘‘This is a difficult and sad day for Catholic Charities,” [The Rev. J. Bryan] Hehir said. ‘‘We have been doing adoptions for more than 100 years.”

Catholic Charities would rather children stay in orphanages than be cared for in loving, stable homes that happen to be headed by same-sex couples.

Catholic Charities stuns state, ends adoptions.

Comment #93: teac  on  02/24  at  03:29 AM

I think even the most secular among us is uncomfortable with the idea that the public ceremony don’t “count” to the point where such a “only the civil paperwork counts” law would never fly with people.

Yep. In the jurisdiction where I live, I can get a domestic partnership by signing papers with my partner. Since we want a wedding where we can say our vows in front of family and friends and we want our marriage recognized by our religion, we are having a Massachusetts wedding instead. We’ll register as domestic partners afterward to get the legal protections here, but to go to city hall to do it with no wedding would be a painful reminder of how we are excluded from full citizenship.

As far as a religious officiant being forced to marry someone, my favorite anecdote is my sister’s. Our family is Jewish as far back as anyone knows, grandparents and great-grandparents came on boats from Poland and Russia. My sister’s husband is also Jewish from birth from similar background. Our family had been members of the same synagogue for more than 20 years, paying dues, building fund, donations, etc. The rabbi refused to marry my sister and brother-in-law because they chose not to have a kosher meal at the wedding. The cantor of the synagogue is a friend of the family and has known my sister since she was a child. He was not allowed to perform the ceremony either because the rabbi would not let him. He attended and sang but could not sign the marriage certificate. A clergy member can decline to marry whomever he or she chooses, and can often direct others who they may or may not marry. They went to a rabbi who often officiates at inter-religious marriages.

Comment #94: one jewish dyke  on  02/24  at  03:53 AM

Dana -

That is NOT what happened, and thirty seconds’ search on Google would prove it.  Catholic Charities VOLUNTARILY, and very suddenly, withdrew from providing adoption services, several years after gay and second-parent adoptions had been routine in Massachusetts.  There has not been ONE lawsuit against the RCC for refusing to performing a same-sex marriage, nor will there be, any more than Gentiles have sued the Chabad House in Brookline to force them to provide Jewish weddings to non-Jews.

You should be ashamed of yourself.  “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” isn’t abrogated just because one is talking about gay rights.

Ellid
Massachusetts resident since 1978

Comment #95: Ellid  on  02/24  at  09:11 AM

It’s worth noting that the Mormons continue to run private, discriminatory adoptions in Massachusetts, legally, because they never became a state proxy or accepted state funds (or babies). They always were, and remain, a private organization.

So the BS with Catholic Charities is even worse - because there is another organization actually doing what Catholic Charities pretends they were doing. It is a clear case of grandstanding.

It is also a clear case, like the Boy Scouts, of people wanting to be able to legally discriminate and standing on their status as a “private” organization, while still wanting all the public money and support without having to follow the same rules everyone else does.

Catholic Charities could easily have continued to run adoptions according to their religious principles of not loving their neighbors and all. We all know the Catholic Church’s dedication to the welfare of minors. They just would have had to stop accepting public money. So they did, but instead of scaling back, turned it into a nationwide lie about how they were being discriminated against.

Comment #96: Lymis  on  02/24  at  12:40 PM
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