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Next entry: And now…the end is near…for the Air America Cruise Contest Previous entry: Yes, homophobes, your straight neighbors are Doing It

OH NO THEY DIDN’T

I have to take a break from blogging about minor concerns like crime, the environment, and health care to announce that I agree with SEK that this list from Entertainment Weekly about the 10 best shows from the past 10 years is bullshit.  How dare they put “The Wire” at #6?  How dare they include “American Idol” and not “Mad Men”? That alone has put them on notice.  Yes, for those about to express concern, I realize that it’s the nature of these lists to be controversial, but good lord, that was fucked up.

That said, one thing that the list does prove is that television in the past decade has really exploded in quality, because despite the inclusion of “American Idol” instead of a worthier show, the rest of the list seems really solid.  Here’s my thoughts on the winners, and thoughts on other shows that are easily good enough to make it onto the list.

10) “The Comeback”.
Haven’t seen it, so can’t say.

9) “Gilmore Girls”. Same problem.

8) “The Shield”.  We just started watching this show on DVD a few months ago and are well into season 2.  This show is to “The Wire” like a Victorian melodrama was to Thomas Hardy.  That doesn’t mean it’s bad, just different.  It’s gritty and morally ambiguous, but I don’t really think you get much out of it besides the shock value.  But it’s tightly written and hella entertaining, and that’s often enough.

7) The original British version of “The Office”.  No quarrels there.  I go back and forth on the American and British versions of the show.  Certainly, the British version is braver in terms of its ruthless approach to the characters.  Too brave, apparently, which is why they went back and had Dawn and Tim get together during the Christmas episode. But the British version had the luxury of being deliberately short, which made it easier to be completely ruthless—-you never had to see a more human side of David Brent.  The American version has to rationalize Michael Scott more, and so they chose to depart from the British show by making him nerdier (if that’s possible), but also more competent, so you can understand why he doesn’t get fired.  The British version, however, just has that character fired. 

All that said, I do think I prefer Tim and Dawn to Jim and Pam.  Jim and Pam are just too clever and cute; Tim and Dawn are a more accurate portrayal of the kind of people that would live in that kind of world.

6) “The Wire”. The main travesty is that this isn’t #1.  I often debate whether or not this or “Mad Men” is the better show, and I have to say “The Wire” is.  “Mad Men” doesn’t cause that gasp of revelation as everything falls together.  “The Wire” also does a better job of handling a large cast, and showing you sympathetic portrayals of people from all walks of life.  The execution of Stringer Bell still haunts me in its narrative perfection, every step that led to that moment.

5) “Arrested Development”.
The best thing about this show is that they went with what they thought was funny, without trying to reach for that lowest common denominator aspect.  That’s why it was doomed.  A lot of the stuff they think is funny is absurd, or satirizing the sort of things we’re not used to seeing satirized, and so it was just way ahead of its time.  But it paved the way for “30 Rock” for sure.  Too bad Jason Bateman hasn’t found his groove since then; he was the perfect straight man on the show, the master of the double take.

4) “American Idol”. Whatever.  I’m sure it’s fun, but it’s not Great Television like the rest of the choices.

3) “The Daily Show”.  It probably deserves the medal for being the first, but “The Colbert Report” is better.  The one advantage “The Daily Show” has is that it reports actual news in a way that probably educates as well as entertains.  But that’s a sad commentary on the real news programs. 

2) “Lost”. Before season 4 of “Battlestar Galactica”, I would have given “BSG” the sci-fi slot.  But “Lost” really is turning out to be the better show.  Who knew?

1) “The Sopranos”.
You all will kill me for this, but here goes: I haven’t seen it and can’t say.

Contenders:


*“The Venture Brothers”. Just started watching it, and finished the first two seasons. I have to say, that’s some brilliant comedy.  Even if you don’t have a lot of direct experience with the show it’s parodying, “Johnny Quest” (and I don’t), it’s still fucking hilarious.  Bonus points for the random punk and art rock references.

*“Firefly”. Upon further reflection, the TV show is way better than the movie “Serenity”.  Does this count as the past decade?  I think so.  “Buffy” misses the mark, having started more than 10 years ago.

*“30 Rock”.  They win for having the most laughs per episode packed in, period.

*The American version of “The Office”.
  It has its flaws, but they get in for having a really strong cast and writers who really enjoy writing to their strengths.

*“Parks and Recreation”. 
The newest inclusion on my list.  It just found its feet this season, but boy it’s knocking each and every episode out of the park.  I’m even able to get over my jealousy of Amy Poehler for getting to be married to Will Arnett.

*“Pushing Daisies”. I wanted to hate this show for being so twee, but it was just subversive enough to get away with it.  Really amazing production values.

*“Deadwood”. I think I need to rewatch this show, because sometimes I’m still amazed that it worked so well.  I need to make sure I wasn’t dreaming.

*“Rome”. 
Canceled because it cost too much, and therefore they wrapped it up too quickly.  At first, I wasn’t so sure about this show, but when the two characters that represented the ordinary Roman soldiers started to really take off as characters, there was no turning back.  I wished that the magical funding fairy had given them at least a 3rd season, so they could have done the war with Egypt some justice. 

*“Battlestar Galactica”.
The ending will never stop being controversial, but the first 2 seasons were some of the most daring television I’ve ever seen to this day.  And Starbuck is both the antithesis of Buffy and the result of the path that Buffy laid down.

*“The Colbert Report”. Sorry, but it’s true.  It’s funnier than “The Daily Show”, still.

*“Curb Your Enthusiasm”. 
Gets the Ricky Gervais award for unflinching willingness to push the awkward button for comedy.

*“Friday Night Lights”. Again, a show that I was wary of, but I adore it.  It gets West Texas right, almost too right.  What surprises me is how much this show really takes football seriously, and expresses a love of the game, and that adds to it.  It’s almost surely the most earnest entry in this entire list, but somehow it manages to work.  I can’t understand why it didn’t get better ratings, since you’d think the public would love a show about such interesting, complex characters that also treats high school football with respect.

The should have been award: “Heroes”. 
The first season of that show was amazing, right up until the end.  And then they didn’t know how to move the story forward, and everything fell apart.

So, thoughts and opinions, Pandagonians?  Am I full of shit?  Did I miss a great TV show that should be included?

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:33 PM • (112) Comments

Maybe I should watch TeeVee but generally there are books to be read.  I haven’t seen any of them except BSG.

Comment #1: Magis  on  12/16  at  07:34 PM

Some good choices.

Plus you rock for pointing out that Colbert is much funnier than the Daily Show.  I’ve had that argument what seems like a million times with people (both online and in real life) and can’t believe how many prefer Jon Stewart.

Loved Colbert’s gold ad spoof last night with John Slattery.

Comment #2: dead souls  on  12/16  at  07:38 PM

Where’s Dexter? The fourth season that just ended was literally the best TV I’ve seen since 2000.

Where’s “So You Think You Can Dance?”, which is an infinitly better show than all the other talent shows combined? Except maybe the one with dance *crews* competing.

Firefly is in there, so I don’t need to dust off my browncoat.

Big Bang Theory (it must lose points because the jokes are above the head of most TV critics raspberry)?

How I Met Your Mother (I’m not gonna deny there’s some issues with it from a feminist perspective, but compared to Friends I must say the young adults in the city sitcom has really evolved over the years)?

I have to agree with Heroes. The show was great first season, completly worthless after. It took me two more seasons to realize that truth, since I was watching it in the hope it would turn back into what it was.

Comment #3: BlackBloc  on  12/16  at  07:42 PM

*“The Colbert Report”.  Sorry, but it’s true.  It’s funnier than “The Daily Show”, still.

I’m sorry, but Colbert is just too much of a one-man show.  I’ll admit that Steven Colbert is funnier than John Stewart, but Stewart’s all-star cast of beat reporters just beats Colbert by sheer volume.  And it’s been a fountain of talent, gushing forth future comedy stars like SNL once did.

Overall, Daily Show deserves it’s spot.

How I Met Your Mother is also genius.

Comment #4: Zifnab  on  12/16  at  07:47 PM

Aww the Venture Bros. It took them almost 4 years (or what felt like it) to come out with the second season. Those of us that were stuck on it during it’s first season on Adult Swim were in agony. I’m not joking. The producers would have to put out little teases and updates to calm us rabid fans.

Comment #5: shakahi  on  12/16  at  07:48 PM

And Firefly only made it one season.  I’d love to say it was worthy of the top ten spot, but BSG beats it out just by surviving.  Firefly had huge - simply epic - amounts of potential.  But it never got to see that through.  I couldn’t justify it a spot.

Comment #6: Zifnab  on  12/16  at  07:48 PM

The West Wing? (Looking it up on IMDB ... gaah, it started 10 years and 3 months ago)

Comment #7: Rehmeyer  on  12/16  at  07:50 PM

I love Parks and Recreation, but I think it’s probably too early to say whether or not it ranks among the real greats.  If it keeps going the way it has this season, I think it will.  As for ones you missed, I’d certainly put Futurama on the list.  A case could maybe be made for The West Wing, though that show got notably worse in later seasons.  The second season of Dexter was pretty great, but the first season suffered from having one of the most preposterous season-long plot arcs I’ve ever seen and the third was just kind of lackluster.  I haven’t seen the fourth season yet, but I have high hopes.

I have several friends who are huge fans of Six Feet Under, but I haven’t seen enough of the show to say.

Comment #8: wjts  on  12/16  at  07:51 PM

The second season of Dexter was pretty great, but the first season suffered from having one of the most preposterous season-long plot arcs I’ve ever seen and the third was just kind of lackluster.

Blame that on the book. The first season is the first book, exactly, with only a few minor details differing. Season 2 onwards diverge completly from the books.

Comment #9: BlackBloc  on  12/16  at  07:55 PM

I love Parks and Recreation.  I think it is just starting to hit its stride.  You don’t have to work for city government to enjoy the show, but it certainly helps.  The schtick about Ron Swanson being an ardent libertarian and still working for city government is so spot on.

Comment #10: kitten parade  on  12/16  at  08:04 PM

Breaking Bad
Big Love
Weeds

Comment #11: godlessmaniac  on  12/16  at  08:05 PM

Dead Like Me.

Slings and Arrows.

Comment #12: Mandolin  on  12/16  at  08:06 PM

Gilmore Girls really is an excellent (and underappreciated) show, especially if you do the sensible thing and pretend the last season doesn’t exist. I’m not certain I’d put it on a top ten list, but then I’d have trouble differentiating between ten best and my ten favorites anyway.

Firefly would definitely make either list for me. So would Wonderfalls, a show I come to love a little bit more every time I have watched it, which has been a lot. (And if you like Pushing Daisies but it’s a bit too twee for you, then you should _definitely_ check out Wonderfalls). I have a lot of love for Veronica Mars too, particularly the first season. House is also pretty awesome.

I can never make up my mind in the TDS/Colbert conundrum. I love them both. I’d say Colbert is the more talented of the two hosts—seriously, the man’s amazing—but if I had to choose to only watch one of the shows, I’d probably pick TDS. I think they deserve a separate list, though. Comparing them to scripted fictional series feels like trying to make a top ten written things (there’s got to be a better word for this) list that includes both blogs and novels. They might share the same medium, but they serve such entirely different purposes that it’s hard to compare them.

Comment #13: hanna  on  12/16  at  08:11 PM

“The first season is the first book, exactly, with only a few minor details differing.”

A…few…minor...details differing?

I’m hoping the fourth season is more compelling than either of the preceding three have been.  The show’s okay, but it seems kind of rudderless.

Comment #14: preying mantis  on  12/16  at  08:14 PM

I actually just watched the first season of Heroes, after having seen the second and third on Hulu (which were sort of mindless popcorn watching with a few really good gags in there). I think the first season is genuinely good and surprisingly creepy in spots, but in the last four or five episodes when they’re done doing exposition, you start seeing the rapid-fire coincidental meetings and random teamups that seems to characterize the rest of the episodes they put out.

The first couple seasons of Six Feet Under should be in contention.

Comment #15: brandon  on  12/16  at  08:18 PM

Big Bang Theory (it must lose points because the jokes are above the head of most TV critics)?

Love that show.  I don’t watch too much tv, and I’ve not seen most of the shows on that list anyway, because there’s books to be read, internet, homework to be done, and papers to be graded, and we only have basic cable here anyway.  Plus, NOVA and The Universe are way better than almost any comedy/drama out there.  But that’s one show I always make time to watch.  It’s nice to see a sitcom that doesn’t dumb down the jokes to the lowest common denominator. 

I also like It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia (we don’t get HBO or FX, but through the magic of Hulu, the husband got me hooked on that one) and just started watching Arrested Development in the last few weeks.

Comment #16: ks  on  12/16  at  08:18 PM

I also love Dexter, but had the exact opposite reaction to wjts @ 8. I thought the season 1 plot was a fun roller coaster and season 3’s bizarre Power of Friendship motif was hilarious, but the very existence of Lila in Season 2 made me want to punch my TV on many occasions.

The Sopranos is fabulous. Go watch it. Actually, I think I’m going to go watch it…

I thought the first season of True Blood was fabulous, and the second one was mostly fabulous but in a more crack-tacular way, although I was disappointed that they let the straight white dudes take over like 95% of the action.

Also: CASTLE. Has Nathan Fillion. Has really badass lady cop with uncountable levels of awesome, including sense of humor. Has lots of writery jokes. Also murder.

Comment #17: thecynicalromantic  on  12/16  at  08:28 PM

I really disagree with you about the relative funniness of Colbert and Stewart. Colbert’s shtick of playing a certain kind of media personality just kind of gets old, whereas Stewart’s, which is just pointing out the absurdity that’s present in the news doesn’t. Colbert does a certain amount of that kind of humour, and that’s where he shines. The whole satirical Colbert personality cult thing is funny, too, but it’s the same joke over and over again, and for me it’s gone stale. I think the Daily show really sucked for awhile after Colbert left, actually, but this year’s been great.

The great thing about John Stewart is that he’s hilarious but he’s also the straight man, reacting to the ridiculous things the correspondents or sometimes public figures say. Colbert is funniest when he has someone to play that role.

Plus Stewart is a way better interviewer, both in terms of comedy and actually letting the people he interviews be themselves. Colbert’s approach to interviewing, where he comically makes it all about him, is kind of funny sometimes, but it’s frustrating when he’s interviewing genuinely funny people and he’s just filling it up with lame jokes he made instead of letting them do their thing. The interviews are overall more serious but the jokes they do are funnier.

To me (and this is a big departure into the realm Canadian TV here, for which I apologize, but Canadian satire is kind of the yardstick I measure American satire against) it’s like comparing the best years of This Hour has 22 minutes with the best years of Air Farce. Both were funny, but Air Farce went so far in making their characters Caricatures that it just wasn’t as good as satire. 22 Minutes actually talked about real issues without sacrificing humour, and their “average Joe” characters managed to do the regional humour thing while still being people you could sort of identify with. These days 22 minutes has kind of lost that, which is why The Mercer Report is funnier (although it kind of pales in comparison to his best years at 22 minutes).

Comment #18: HonestB  on  12/16  at  08:29 PM

I agree with you re The Shield in the early seasons, but just wait.  The last season is absolutely brilliant.

Comment #19: nolo  on  12/16  at  08:30 PM

Since I don’t watch television that I can’t borrow the DVD or stream through Netflix, I can’t comment much.

However…

After watching Firefly, it was a show that deserved its fate. It felt both rushed and lazy at the same time and I can hardly blame FOX (who have no idea how to program a network anyway) for pulling the plug on an expensive show that wasn’t finding an audience. In the 14 DVD episodes, there was simply too much filler. They probably would’ve been better served if they’d only had 14 episodes to tell the first season instead of the expected full-slate.

30 Rock? It compares favourably to Arrested Development? Really? I don’t see it. I see a bog-standard sitcom only filmed without a studio audience. I tried to like it and just couldn’t find it engaging. Maybe starting at the first season wasn’t the best choice, but how else do you get to know a show than from the beginning? Though I will say it feels similar to Arrested Development…

...in that the third season of AD was terrible. Too much, too fast. An anti-Firefly, if you will. Second season they hit their stride and it was firing on all cylinders. The third was all over the place and lacked focus. The ending doesn’t make me want to see a movie follow-up at all. Maybe being under the gun to get ratings (or find a different network) took its toll. But it’s best to look at it like a time capsule of what could be and move on.

(As an aside, AD has affected my ability to judge even ‘classic’ sitcoms… It was just ‘too perfect’...)

BBC Office is better than US Office. And mostly because they didn’t take too long with their story. Even the Christmas Special fit in. The whole conceit of some kind of documentary about a paper company is losing its effectiveness the more the show drags on in the US. No matter how good it might still be (haven’t seen season five yet), it’s getting long in the tooth. Maybe it would’ve been better all along if they’d cycled out old characters periodically instead of a consistent cast. Once a show is settled-in, that’s when bigger problems arise. The Office is definitely there.

As for what’s not on the list? Titus still has a special place in my mind. They ‘went there’ before AD did. And suffered from much of the same problems (second season is the best, third is under pressure to perform, the whole thing was too ‘uncomfortable’ for standard TV, etc).

Comment #20: Santa Claustrophobia  on  12/16  at  08:31 PM

“I thought the season 1 plot was a fun roller coaster and season 3’s bizarre Power of Friendship motif was hilarious, but the very existence of Lila in Season 2 made me want to punch my TV on many occasions.”

There were a lot of parts in Season 2 that made me want to slam my head in a door, but I found the persistence of everyone interpreting “She’s stab-you-in-the-face, set-you-on-fire crazy” as “LOL WOMEN M I RITE?” pretty funny.  Season 3’s friendship-bracelet moments have had the opposite effect for me.  Though by the time they’re hi5ing over a corpse, I was thinking that the show would have gone in a more interesting direction if he’d just kept everyone who was okay with his hobbies around; they all could have moved out into the sticks, started a sausage company, and gotten a movie deal out of it.

Comment #21: preying mantis  on  12/16  at  08:37 PM

I second what Honest B said, I much prefer Jon Stewart over Colbert. Colbert really just does one act, even though he does it well, Stewart is more varied in his approach. Plus Jon Stewart is totally sexy.
Love Arrested Development. Firefly was very, very good but didn’t really get to begin to reach its potential in its short run, sadly the same could be said for Whedon’s already cancelled Dollhouse which started out slow but now in the last four or five episodes become one of the best shows on TV (I’m not kidding: Watch it!)
However my pick for the best show not on the list: True Blood. Funny, smart, and packed with some really sexy men.

Comment #22: AdamN  on  12/16  at  08:44 PM

If you liked The Wire, you’ll probably like The Sopranos and vice versa.  I just finished Season 1 of The Wire.  In The Wire (so far, for me) you see both sides in-depth, with The Sopranos law enforcement is less prominent and the Mafia is the focus.  But with both, character depth is wonderful and the cast is dead on.  And that’s a major key to a good show, in my opinion.

American Idol, gah!  I guess if 50 million Elvis fans can’t be wrong…

Comment #23: liberalrob  on  12/16  at  08:45 PM

30 Rock, House, Colbert Nation, Weeds, Dexter, and a late arrival to Mad Men.

And Maddow and (usually) Olbermann, but those aren’t really the same category.

And St. Louis Cardinals baseball.  My one sports dood obsession.

That’s about all the TV I watch, but I sometimes check out SNL clips on Hulu if someone tells me about a particularly funny skit.

Comment #24: DTG in STL  on  12/16  at  08:47 PM

I also love Dexter, but had the exact opposite reaction to wjts @ 8. I thought the season 1 plot was a fun roller coaster and season 3’s bizarre Power of Friendship motif was hilarious, but the very existence of Lila in Season 2 made me want to punch my TV on many occasions.

I liked the first season well enough, but I saw both of the reveals about the Ice Truck Killer coming and thought the second one was really stupid.  But it was fun.  The third season was OK, and Jimmy Smits did a great job, but there just seemed to be something missing.  As for the second season, I’m not as down on Lila as a lot of other folks seem to be, and I think her presence is more than offset by Dexter vs. Lundy and Dexter vs. Doakes.  (The absence of Doakes may be why I didn’t like Season 3 so much.)

Blame that on the book. The first season is the first book, exactly, with only a few minor details differing. Season 2 onwards diverge completly from the books.

Yeah, I read one of the books and really didn’t like it.  It was the one where the Dark Passenger was revealed to be some kind of Mesopotamian blood demon and… man, that book was bad.

Comment #25: wjts  on  12/16  at  08:48 PM

I’m incredibly happy that Gilmore Girls made the list. The show is fantastic and tends to get dismissed frequently as a stupid “chick show.” This past spring and summer my husband and I rewatched the entire series from start to finish and we’re already ready to watch again. The final season was a let down, but that was to be expected due to the loss of Amy Sherman-Palladino and her husband Daniel Palladino. They’re such an incredible team, not only did they create Gilmore Girls, but along with Joss Whedon and Penelope Spheeris were part of the team behind the ever-epic Roseanne.

Comment #26: jessilikewhoa  on  12/16  at  08:49 PM

It’s probably worth digging up an episode or two of Johnny Quest just so you can enjoy Venture Bros. more. Hell, some of the Johnny Quest characters even show up from time to time. This is probably revealing a tad too much of my stoner side, but in my house we love both Wondershowzen and Xavier: Renegade Angel. Totally different shows, but obviously written by the same people. Also the British version of Life on Mars is fantastic. We couldn’t get past the first episode of the American version though.

Comment #27: ElleDee  on  12/16  at  08:53 PM

Big Love belongs on the list.

Comment #28: Captain Bathrobe  on  12/16  at  08:56 PM

Six Feet Under, of course.

I’m a fan of Gilmore Girls, but to exclude Mad Men (it’s exclusion is insane!) or Six Feet Under for the Gillies is nuts. No less the lightweight The Comeback. I also agree that Rome, Big Bang Theory, Breaking Bad should be on the list waaaay over American Idol

Comment #29: judybrowni  on  12/16  at  08:56 PM

“It was the one where the Dark Passenger was revealed to be some kind of Mesopotamian blood demon and… man, that book was bad.”

I believe the implication was also that it came from space.

I just realized that the third season of Metalocalypse started over a month ago.  I need to catch up.

Comment #30: preying mantis  on  12/16  at  08:59 PM

Six Feet Under definitely belongs. Flawed but very, very good.

Comment #31: Ben Alpers  on  12/16  at  09:01 PM

Wait, The Shield over Mad Man, Six Feet Under, even Rome?

I watched every damn episode of the The Shield for several seasons, and still you can’t convince me it belongs on that list.

Comment #32: judybrowni  on  12/16  at  09:01 PM

The Comeback over Weeds or Dexter?

C’mon!

What the hell is wrong with EW (wait, plenty—including backstage complaints I’ve heard aplenty from entertainment writers who’ve freelanced for the thing.

Comment #33: judybrowni  on  12/16  at  09:03 PM

“The Venture Brothers”

Best thing on television, bar none. Adult Swim originals can be hit or miss, but when they hit, they really hit.

Comment #34: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  12/16  at  09:07 PM

“The execution of Stringer Bell still haunts me in its narrative perfection, every step that led to that moment.”

Best moment of TV ever!

Comment #35: Mark  on  12/16  at  09:15 PM

Gilmore Girls really is an excellent (and underappreciated) show, especially if you do the sensible thing and pretend the last season doesn’t exist.

I started watching that show in reruns because my 9 year old niece had the DVD’s and loved it. I found it entertaining but I agree with you about the last season. I’ve never been that angry about a TV show before. It was like the writers, producers and creators went insane or something. Try explaining to a 9 year old that relates to one of the only young Asian female characters on TV, Lane, how it makes any kind of sense that she would suddenly walk away from all her hard work and dreams of being a drummer in a band to get married, get pregnant, accidentally with no discussion of abortion,  and they stay home with twins while her husband goes off to live out her dreams. WTF??! Sorry I’m still angry. Especially since Lane was such a music geek/snob like my niece.

Comment #36: shakahi  on  12/16  at  09:18 PM

Anyone who can watch truly dark TV (and I can’t always) should be watching Breaking Bad.

The other thing that puts Stewart over Colbert on the list is that people trust Stewart. Colbert is just comedy. Stewart is a weird mix of comedy and journalism, and people trust him almost the way they used to trust Cronkite, certainly way more than they trust any anchors today.

I adored Firefly, but I don’t think it was groundbreaking television the way Buffy was. I do think it’s fair to include shows that started in fall of ‘99 on the list - they certainly couldn’t have qualified for any list about the 90s.

I’m surprised that Friday Night Lights doesn’t get more attention too. It’s just so American. How can people not identify with it?

Comment #37: Av0gadro  on  12/16  at  09:20 PM

If you’re going to do overseas TV shows, then anime should be discussed as well…

And really?  Because Ghost In the Shell SAC’s two series is essentially the best modern day long run science fiction tv show.  And Sci-Fi Sci-Fi, not Thriller Sci-Fi.

I wouldn’t put Joan of Arcadia too close to the top, but at its best (until scorched by the sun of religious conventions), it was a top 10 broadcast show.

Journeyman is like Firefly, and from what I understand the storyboard and acting is superior.

Comment #38: shah8  on  12/16  at  09:21 PM

Meant to comment also on The Sopranos. I always liked it (Christopher deserved it!) and own all seasons on DVD, but it just can’t compete w/The Wire for great storytelling & compelling acting.

Comment #39: Mark  on  12/16  at  09:30 PM

I can’t believe Deadwood isn’t on the list. That and Breaking Bad, and Carnivale I guess. Lists piss people off.

Comment #40: pharmakos  on  12/16  at  09:31 PM

Because Ghost In the Shell SAC’s two series is essentially the best modern day long run science fiction tv show.  And Sci-Fi Sci-Fi, not Thriller Sci-Fi.

I didn’t think I’d say this when I started watching, but shah8 is not far off of the truth.  It’s easily in the top 5 SciFi TV shows of the Oughts.  If I understood Japanese kanji, and could catch more of the small bits, I’d probably be rabid over it.

“The Venture Brothers”

I picked that up after finishing GitS:SAC - that show shames Simpsons, Family Guy, and even Futurama.

Comment #41: idiosynchronic  on  12/16  at  09:35 PM

I agree with your reasoning on those shows that I’ve seen.  And also agree with the person who said gilmore girls is excellent if you ignore the last season.

I have to say that Better Off Ted is not getting nearly enough attention. I don’t like to think objectively about tv, but I think it’s as funny as 30 rock. You heard it here.

Comment #42: bethany  on  12/16  at  10:01 PM

I agree with bethany that Better off Ted isn’t getting the attention it deserves. I don’t agree that it’s funnier than 30 Rock though.
Parks and Rec has quickly become the most quotable show for me. “What was it like looking into the eye of Satan’s butthole?” and
“Haven’t you ever messed around with a man’s head to see what you could get from him? We do it all the time at the library. You should come on over.”  and
“Punkass book jockeys!”

The one with Megan Mullaly is definitely one of my favorite sitcom episodes. Ever.

Comment #43: shakahi  on  12/16  at  10:14 PM

I didn’t think I’d say this when I started watching, but shah8 is not far off of the truth.  It’s easily in the top 5 SciFi TV shows of the Oughts.  If I understood Japanese kanji, and could catch more of the small bits, I’d probably be rabid over it.
“The Venture Brothers”
I picked that up after finishing GitS:SAC - that show shames Simpsons, Family Guy, and even Futurama.

You silly, cartoons can’t ever be REAL TV. Real TV is real people acting about superpowers, or talentless people singing.

Comment #44: Seebach  on  12/16  at  10:16 PM

The AV Club had a pretty good list a few weeks ago but they’ve been compulsively listijng everything since the start of November. Personal favourites:

Carnivale. As unique as Twin Peaks was twenty years or so ago, and with an epic sense of scale almost nothing else came near. Also top cast and great acting. Who knows how far it could have gone if HBO had sprung for more episodes.

Peep Show. Or at least the first four series. Genuinely the best ‘cringeworthy’ comedy around and the best comedic antiheroes since George Costanza.

Also Oz before it got too ridiculous and, very selectively, South Park, not to mention The IT Crowd and Black Books. I think maybe some of those didn’t travel over the Atlantic. Other than that, any big jternational football tournament. I loved The Wire but I can’t imagine getting up at six am and going to a bar just to watch the newest episode.

Comment #45: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  12/16  at  10:22 PM

Lost?

Seriously?

Because that show lost me by the end of season 1, and I like cheesy sci-fi.  Watched far too much of season two b/c, strangely, my hubby didn’t want to give up on it.  By then it was utterly apparent they had no plan or clue what was going on.

I know it supposedly picked up around season 4, as they did get a plan and a timetable, but there’s no fucking way I’m slogging through anymore of that slow moving crap again.  Nope.  Na Ganna Ha Pen.

Dexter I watched for 2 1/2 seasons.  I really hated SuperDexter going to Paris and killing his stalker gf who could have exposed him.  He’s not a super hero, he’s a serial killer, and by stretching out the story, the writers got too fond of him.  He’s not really a likable guy; he just pretends to be one.  Like his daydream at the end of season one when he imagines a tickertape parade for killing the Ice Truck Killer et. al.  The reality is he’d be thrown in jail for being the monster he is, and the show seemed to forget that in season 2.

When we gave up Showtime, I didn’t miss him.

Same feeling for Sopranos—the first 2 seasons are brilliant, but they kept throwing more money to have more seasons, so you got season 3 & 4 which were Ralphie as Richie 2.0.  Still better than most of the rest of TV, but you could see the stretch marks, especially if you rewatch season 1. 

ElleDee, I’m with you on Life on Mars, but I suffered through a couple more American episodes before having to stop.  I have a friend who watch the American version and loved it, and when she tried to watch the BBC version couldn’t make it through.  Once you have your “Sam Tyler”, the other version just doesn’t work.

I love Better off Ted.  Phil and Lem are hysterical; I love watching them in the background. 

BSG before the year long jump ahead over the shark.

Firefly deserved better.  Veronica Mars season 1 was fantastic, but again, suffered from being stretched out.  It was based on a prospective YA novel, and the first season told that story and held together.  Season two tried to find reasons to recreate season one’s setup—to push a reset button, and it didn’t work at all.  They should have just picked up a second season after college, with a new murder and new relationships.  Because far too often it just felt as if they were writing Veronica as a bitch, when season 1 Veronica was prickly for damn good reasons.

It was a Buffy problem, too.  Sometimes she was written as the shallow cheerleader who had to grow up and not be so shallow.  She had a brain, even if she hadn’t always used it before, and she understood her responsibility, even if she wanted to run away from it.  Others saw her as a still shallow cheerleader who happened to be a slayer, but remained shallow and stupid.  She was just a tool to be used b/c she wasn’t likable on her own. 

It’s not a lot of fun when writers dislike their protagonists, especially when the protagonist is a damaged young woman who they want to teach a lesson b/c they don’t like her.

Comment #46: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/16  at  10:50 PM

Jesus, Amanda, you haven’t seen The Sopranos? I almost want to mail you my copy of the first season DVD. If you liked Deadwood, you will love The Sopranos.

Comment #47: Ben D.  on  12/16  at  10:55 PM

The Daily Show and Cobert should both have been in the top 5.  They are seriously the ONLY shows I rearrange anything in my own life to watch or freak out when they move without warning or pre-empt. 
Firefly is in my all time favorites; and I’m enjoying Castle now, enough so that we bought a season’s worth. 
Heroes; definately. 
But not one single CSI?  The original was ground breaking and great at the start.  Bones, as better than they ever did in the same genre with truly strong female characters ( a little too soap opera at times for my taste, but still).

Comment #48: helen w. h.  on  12/16  at  11:20 PM

I think Firefly and Wonderfalls, while both excellent shows, simply did not have the lifespan to qualify as “truly great.”

Deadwood, Mad Men, and 30 Rock are the current champs.

Comment #49: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/16  at  11:21 PM

WTF!  No love for the West Wing?  Come on!  How many times did it win the Emmy?  And don’t give me any of that bs about it starting in 1999, so did the Sopranos.  I also give a thumbs up to Six Feet Under, it had probably my favorite ending of a TV show.

Deadwood and Rome were also both awesome, but I can see how that might seem a bit to elitist for EW’s tastes.

And for the really obscure category, Invader Zim, and Death Note.

Comment #50: Jason K  on  12/16  at  11:23 PM

I loved the Sopranos.  Can’t really comment on the rest, as I only have seen an episode here and there of Arrested Development, the Daily Show and Colbert Report.  I know zero about the rest.

Comment #51: jackieg  on  12/16  at  11:27 PM

Oh, yeah, Dollhouse.
Though, for a sitcom, Big Bang is good.  It just hits a little close to people I’ve rally known.

And people?  It’s Jon Stewart.  J - O - N, not John.  Good ensemble is always better, in the long run, than even the best one man show.  Daily show, hands down.

Comment #52: helen w. h.  on  12/16  at  11:27 PM

I watched Buffy all the way through when it was first shown but never got the urge to repeat watch it afterward or to delve into any of Whedon’s other stuff but reading Caren’s assessment of it, it chimes wwith what I’ve heard other people say about Whedon’s stuff, that for all the hype around him being pro-feminist, his female characters have to suffer a lot for being strong. It wasn’t something I took on board when I was a teenager but looking back, definitely. I don’t think there was a single female character in Buffy who didn’t either die or suffer some kind of life-wrecking misfortune, except maybe Cordelia who was always painted as a bimbo anyway, while many of the male characters escaped relatively unscathed.

Comment #53: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  12/16  at  11:29 PM

Take away the 4th season and BSG easily makes the list.  The rest of it restored my faith in modern sci-fi.  “Exodus” was one of the best hours of television I’ve seen in years.

And it made the shark-jumping all the more painful…

Comment #54: Sour Kraut  on  12/16  at  11:30 PM

For what it’s worth, I agree that the first season of the Sopranos was some of the best television ever created. Season 2 was good and then it fell off the cliff, at least for me. I haven’t watched any of it past season 3 at all. The same for Arrested Development—it just got old after awhile.

Of the shows cited above that I have seen I’d say 30 Rock is way too uneven (as much as I love Alec Baldwin and Tracy Morgan in it) and the American Office wore off for me incredibly quickly.

I haven’t watched a ton of it, but Curb Your Enthusiasm has had some truly inspired moments

I thought the first season of Flight of the Conchords was really brilliant and quite novel. If longevity isn’t a criteria (and I wouldn’t personally make it one), that show gets my vote.

Comment #55: round guy  on  12/16  at  11:37 PM

Hrm. I was cuckoo-bananas in love with Lost during its first season, stayed loyal through the long slog of the second, was more than a little confused by the epic derailings of the third season, and by fourth season I was like “Jack who ?” It felt like a vaguely sci-fi show was being written by people who were incredibly impressed with themselves for having discovered sci-fi. “Oh, man this is going to blow their minds: TIME TRAVEL.”

But oh, how I loved Veronica Mars. The show and the character. Season one was a pretty much perfect little mystery, tied up with a bow. Season two had issues, but I felt like it stayed true to the concept of Neptune as a whole- the dirty, gritty underbelly with the sunny face laid on top. Season three was generally appalling: the awesome and beloved main-cast African-American and Latino actors (with all their backstory and audience investment) got bumped down in screen time to make way for two bland (and white) college roommates and their accompanying romantic quadrangles. It was a terrific show to start with, so it had a pretty long fall when it came.

Carnivale was scary brilliance.

@Caren, I hear you on the Buffy thing. I adored her character. But it seemed like every time the writers wanted to make a point about her behavior, they’d have Xander get mad at her and demand an apology in front of everyone. And then she’d deliver one, and I’d throw my remote across the room.

Comment #56: other_orange  on  12/16  at  11:39 PM

I think perhaps part of the problem with Whedon and what appears to be the portrayal of his strong female leads is that the thing you need most for drama is conflict. Either physical or mental. And having a female lead means having a lions share of the conflict. The overall lack of female leads, strong or otherwise, only magnifies this ‘treatment’.

Now, that’s not to say there isn’t anything to the theory about Whedon’s characters. But how soon before Buffy (or whomever) becomes boring when nothing fazes them? It’s boring when male characters are perfect, it’ll be boring when female characters are too. Adding drama just kind of means a more than significant increase in the scale of the drama

Comment #57: Santa Claustrophobia  on  12/16  at  11:59 PM

I know West Wing started in ‘99, but I think it still belongs on any list like this. The Aaron Sorkin years of that show match up perfectly against anything television has ever offered. Mad Men and The Wire are the only competition it has for the best of the last decade, indeed, the best of ever, at least in my mind.

RE: How I Met Your Mother. I stayed away from this show for a real long time because I hate CBS and just don’t have any faith in any of their shows, but then someone bought me the first seaaon DVD. It is hilarious. I think, after 30 Rock, it’s the best sitcom of teevee.

Comment #58: bend  on  12/17  at  12:02 AM

Comment #18: HonestB - I’ve made the same comparison of Stewart and Colbert to This Hour and Air Farce.

I do think Colbert is funnier at his best, but Stewart is a better show overall because of its scope.

As for Buffy and “women suffer to be strong”—Whedon just likes making EVERYONE suffer. It’s his thing. (And Buffy was at its best when it was an allegory for high school, the moment they left that it lost its way. It still did have some moments of brilliance in the later episodes.)

Venture Brothers is genius, and if you know Johnny Quest it just gets even better.

Comment #59: LC  on  12/17  at  12:54 AM

Because Ghost In the Shell SAC’s two series is essentially the best modern day long run science fiction tv show.

I found the first series to be brilliant, but the second to be confused and muddled.  I can appreciate the hard sci-fi aspect of the show, but Shirow Masamune’s existential explorations have a tendency to not translate well into shows.

I’d nominate Torchwood over Firefly. I felt the writing was better, and it had a refreshingly nihilistic view of human nature.  Plus it had James Marsters and John Barrowman kissing, that’s just good television.

I’d also like to put my two cents in for The West Wing, even when the wheels started to fall off the show it was good. (IMHO, that was season 5.) I especially like that the show was forever showing how frustrated progressives are with the Democratic party.

And joining the chorus of Jon Stewart over Stephen Colbert, simply because I like Stewart’s surgical use of biting sarcasm.

Comment #60: Godless Heathen  on  12/17  at  12:58 AM

Really? Torchwood? It’s cute, but not great. (Although props for Jack/Ianto and Jack/John)

Comment #61: LC  on  12/17  at  01:31 AM

Ok, I’m either really old or really out in left field here, but what about Boston Legal? imdb says 2004 -2008, so it qualifies by time.  Comments?

Comment #62: phylosopher  on  12/17  at  02:25 AM

As for Buffy and “women suffer to be strong”—Whedon just likes making EVERYONE suffer. It’s his thing.

Yeah I was kind of wondering if people were watching the same show I was.  Yes, Buffy had the whole, woe is me responsibility kick, because she’s the slayer etc.  But seriously, there is not a single character that didn’t suffer in ways that would be beyond comprehension in the real world.  Pretty much everyone was tortured physically at some point, had a SO die and had a life crushing mystical condition/event.  I guess you could say that Xander got off the easiest because he had the most “real life” problems but then again he got an eye poked out in the final season so I would question the term “easy”.

***

Sopranos should definitely be watched, it it a piece of tv history that does need to be there as a reference point during any conversation on the “best of” tv.

Loved, loved, loved Rome.  I am still fascinated about how well they were able to take a story that has probably been told a million times and still make it so engaging.

Breaking Bad in phenomenal as well, Cranston is just so perfect in the role. Right now the favourite is Mad Men.

I watched episodes of most of the comedies listed but I don’t think I could form a complete opinion about them because I just don’t get into the habit of watching comedies regularly.  I don’t know exactly why that is, but that’s what it is.

I think that BSG does deserve the “sci-fi” spot, mainly because even though the last season was WTF.  I could still actually make it through.  Much unlike Lost or Heroes who have fallen by the wayside quite awhile ago now.

Oh and John over Stephen but 22 Minutes had it first. (I still love The Word, but like a few others here his constant shtick can be too much to take)

Does anyone else get the feeling like they are watching way too much tv?

Comment #63: hypatia  on  12/17  at  02:29 AM

I highly recommend FX’s “Sons of Anarchy”. The subject matter, violent criminal biker gangs, might give feminists pause, but behind the ‘biker mamas’ and ‘old ladies’ one might expect there are a number of very strong female characters.

Katie Sagal in particular is amazing as the wife of the gang’s leader. While she officially has no standing, everyone in the gang defers to her and it’s clear she runs SAMCRO every bit as much as her husband.

Comment #64: Mark Temporis  on  12/17  at  02:32 AM

I started watching that show in reruns because my 9 year old niece had the DVD’s and loved it. I found it entertaining but I agree with you about the last season. I’ve never been that angry about a TV show before. It was like the writers, producers and creators went insane or something. Try explaining to a 9 year old that relates to one of the only young Asian female characters on TV, Lane, how it makes any kind of sense that she would suddenly walk away from all her hard work and dreams of being a drummer in a band to get married, get pregnant, accidentally with no discussion of abortion, and they stay home with twins while her husband goes off to live out her dreams. WTF??! Sorry I’m still angry. Especially since Lane was such a music geek/snob like my niece.

What happened was the writers left. Actually, the husband and wife team who created the show, produced the show, directed the show, and wrote most of the show left. Amy Sherman-Palladino and her husband Daniel had a contract dispute with the CW after the WB and UPN merged to form the network. They couldn’t resolve the dispute and walked away at the end of season 6. Season 7 was headed by David S Rosenthal who is described by defamer as “a curious choice to guide the mother-daughter story for multiple reasons, not the least of which being the time, according to a quoted LAT magazine article, he abruptly quit his gig at Spin City and divorced his wife so he could focus all his energies on writing and mounting a creepy, mysogynistic play about his obsessive desire to sleep with Heidi Klum.” He was an awful choice.

In addition, contract negotiations were taking place to almost the end of season 7 on whether there would be a season 8 or not, so the writers, cast and crew didn’t know if they were doing a season finale or a series finale until the show basically ended. That’s part of why the finale sucks so hard, it had to be open ended enough to allow another season but conclusive enough to end the series.

I’m a Gilmore Girls fanatic, like signed petitions trying to keep the show on the air/still hoping for a movie to resolve all the issues/wish I could live in Stars Hollow freak. Amy Sherman-Palladino began the series knowing exactly how she would end the series, right down to final dialogue, and the series jumped the shark without her. She was so upset about what happened that in an interview just this fall she claims to have never watched season 7 and still hopes to someday do a movie to end the series proper.

Sorry to be so long winded, I just really really really love Gilmore Girls.

Comment #65: jessilikewhoa  on  12/17  at  02:54 AM

in case you want to read more about creepy creepy show ruining David S. Rosenthal here’s a link to that defamer article

http://defamer.gawker.com/hollywood/top/new-gilmore-girls-showrunner-was-heidi-klums-1-fan-169246.php

Comment #66: jessilikewhoa  on  12/17  at  02:56 AM

Godless Heathen, I run into that sentiment alot.  2nd Gig was just released as BD so there was a great deal of commentary about it.  To put it short, it’s quite a bit like Matrix Reloaded in my mind, in that it’s much more in-depth and internally consistent (and much less ability for an audience to put its own spin on things) and that tends to put people off.  The Wire suffered low ratings for precisely this reason as well.  It was just so grounded in reality that most people know and understand in some ways that dismissal as “incorrect” and “wrong” and “writers being vainglorious” didn’t really make a great deal of sense so the pretty people just stuffed it into the urban ghetto.  However, a science fiction story that is for all intents and purposes a very hard sci-fi (once you get past e-brains) is incomprehensible enough for a variety of responses. 

That means that shows like Lost, Heros, and Fringe (among many other JJ Abrams abominations) routinely uses incomprehension to titilate and lead people into their story construct, all the while never *really* resolving anything.  The minute people can’t “buy in” with their personal interpretations of what is going on, the masses up and goes.  Of course, never resolving anything leads to catastrophically bad endings like Heroes, Battlestar Galactica, anything remotely to do with JJ Abrams so forth and so on.  More strongly structured and plotted shows like Journeyman, Nowhere Man, The Wire, and GitS SAC all require work by the audience, along with a great deal of empathy, if they want to enjoy the show.  Most people watching the boob tube don’t want to do that, and in GitS‘s case, the added difficulties of having to understand a great deal of scientific and philosophical concepts, which are woven into the stories, are serious obstacles.  2nd Gig is just a great deal more of the same, with fewer standalone episodes and distinctly requires some kind of comprehension of japanese political history and japanese institutions in order to “get it”.  However, it is a great deal more rewarding than the first season.  The really sad thing is that there is no comparable show in the US with advanced science and philosophical ideas as intrinsic elements.  The Big Bang Theory has lots of real science, but they are in-jokes—like if you know Chandrasekhar and his life are major sources of the idea that is Raj, but you don’t *have* to know that to get most of the jokes.  Similarly, Dollhouse is chock full of reasonably accurate neurology, but you don’t have to appreciate exactly what Topher says, because later on he’ll speak “english”—as if scientific terms aren’t english…  At least advance sociology and politics are sometimes shown in productions like The Wire, Oz, and The West Wing.

Hmmm, existentialism is not really much more than a theme even in the movies.  Stand Alone Complex is what the deal is all about and that’s more about the marriage of social construction of reality + complexity theory.

Comment #67: shah8  on  12/17  at  02:58 AM

The Big Bang Theory probably is too specialized in what it does to make the general lists, but it deserves at least an honourable mention: like Chuck, it understands the fandoms it references, and, unlike Chuck (which I love too), it has an awesome theme song.

Firefly didn’t get to finish, but I think it would’ve done some incredible stuff if it had.

Castle.  Hands down, great humour, intricate enough plots, and characters you can both identify with and love.  Points for avoiding the and-he-gets-involved-in-her-tragic-past all through the first season.  Plus, the chemistry between the actors is incredible, and I get the feeling the authors respect what they’ve got and want to display it without running it into the ground.

Bones is probably not ‘great’ T.V., but of the crime-of-the-week shows, I think it’s one of the sharpest.  There’s enough focus on the characters to build plot arcs, bizarre enough murders to keep the audience wondering what they’ll do next, and some very smart moves within the dialogue.  It may not be realistic, but it knows it’s not realistic, and it plays to that—Bones dresses up as Superwoman for Halloween, which was fun for those of us who see her as a modern-day rewrite of Superwoman (the television ideal of a super-successful brainy career woman who is physically attractive and can do martial arts), while one of their major villains was an over-the-top cannibal worthy of a Dan Brown novel.  Plus, they fit in fanservice without forgetting that there’s a reason the show won fans in the first place.

I wouldn’t put Torchwood on there, but only because I think it’s gone off the rails of late—it started out with a lot of potential, and seemed to be living up to it.  And then RTD decided to kill them all.  That just seems like a bad choice for an ensemble show.  I mean, great characters, awesome use of tension, and then blam, spiral of death.  First season and early second season were incredible, though.

BtVS was…  Let’s just say, I went to birthday parties where the major topic over cake was a complete recap of the latest episode.  If you were in the right demographic, it could feel pretty lifechanging, and it dominated the and-here-is-my-life-played-out-by-pretty-people-in-supernatural-metaphors slot.  I think it should get some credit for creating a fandom that is still incredibly active and invites speculation and rewriting, too: at some point, it stopped being just a T.V. show, and became a sandbox within which anyone can play.

I’d put American Idol under So You Think You Can Dance, if they absolutely must have a reality/contest show about.  SYTYCD keeps most of the focus where it should be, on the dancing, and as it’s grown season-to-season it’s attracted more talented dancers and choreographers.  Idol I avoid, because it exploits its contestants so ruthlessly and doesn’t seem to produce very many people with real career prospects—SYTYCD takes young dancers and actually does train them to do more, forcing them to learn different styles by giving them the opportunity to work with very, very good choreographers.  It’s most impressive if you’ve followed along and seen the build up of skill, but even just watching a single episode from late in the season is a treat for dance fans (the competition part of season six’s finale was routine after routine that belonged on the professional circuit, and all of those dancers are only just launching their careers).  The charity associated with it sounds like a wonderful idea, too.

Comment #68: fluffster  on  12/17  at  03:45 AM

Cartoon nerd in me refuses to keep quiet. It’s Jonny Quest, no “h”.

Comment #69: JCfromNC  on  12/17  at  04:30 AM

I really hope all of the people into Firefly check out Dollhouse. Its become a really, really good show. Lots of people who love Firefly now didn’t even bother to watch it when it was on, myself included. That’s part of what makes its cancellation years ago so sad now. Watching the last 5 or 6 episodes of Dollhouse I think this is very much going to be a similar case if not more so. Yeah, actually I would say Dollhouse has now become a better show then Firefly even though it had a rougher start. Too bad its fucking canceled…
And I would agree with the folks above who say the Whedon makes everyone in his shows suffer regardless of gender. This reached its peak with Whedon in Angel (another great show) season 4 I think. What Whedon did to Cordelia, who had become the shows most like-able character in many ways, was just plain awful.

Comment #70: AdamN  on  12/17  at  07:00 AM

Both my wife and my niece loved Gilmore Girl, so I decided to give it a look.

<insert gagging noise here>

I gave it a fair look, but it is the smuggest, most self-congratulatorially faux clever crap ever.  It just falls in love with itself from start to finish and every word drips with “look at me, I am soooooo clever”.  The way in which they deliver their lines, that rapid-fire bullshit that is, if anything, mimicry of The West Wing, becomes irritating in a very short while as character after character employs the exact same cadence, spitting out lines to show how clever everyone is.  And that background music makes me want to throw up too.  “La la la la laaaa” over and over, every episode, some horrid fairy voices “la la la la” in the background as counterpoint to some emotion or other is an insipid style that, if I heard someone humming to themselves like that in an airport, I might have to break my rule of never talking to strangers and give them a stern, “Do you mind?”

Gilmore Girls was and is bad television pretending to be good television. ..and only a complete moron would have failed to recognize that Jesse was an asshole and tossed aside that lovely Dean for that self-involved jerk.

Comment #71: DBK  on  12/17  at  10:59 AM

About The Big Bang Theory—really indulges the stereotypes and declined rapidly in to the usual sit-com claptrap in which it imitates itself and loses the comedic thread in repetitious exposition of who the characters are.  Sit-coms often begin to fall apart by either trying to expand the characters into deeper roles (M*A*S*H) that betray the comedy or they just keep the characters in the same mold as they always existed and the jokes smell of repetition, like Big Bang Theory.  That one got old already.

Comment #72: DBK  on  12/17  at  11:04 AM

As to Deadwood? YES!  Might be my all-time favorite.

But what about Sheriff Bullock’s other great contribution to the medium:  Damages?

Damages was a short run program, but it was fantastic.  I hope it comes back, but only if they can do another run same as the other one.

Comment #73: DBK  on  12/17  at  11:07 AM

I prefer BetterOff Ted to 30Rock, but I understand it is definately not for everyone.  People who don’t know scientists, engineers and giant companies that still do R&D;(so few its laughable) only get the edges of the humor, so no matter how great it just is not going to make the list.  But I bought a DVD.  We also have the 1st run of Rome, the 2nd wasn’t good enough to buy, not until the prices drop a bit anyway.

Comment #74: helen w. h.  on  12/17  at  11:17 AM

Okay, I can’t be the only one, given all the sci-fi nerdy love here:  can I get even one Amen for The Dresden Files?  The series (only one season, boo hoo!) is what turned me on to the books, for which I’m forever grateful.

No?  Just me?

Comment #75: elmo  on  12/17  at  12:03 PM

As soon as I got to american idol on the list I stopped giving a shit about the list altogether.  Sure, Colbert deserves to be on and the The Daily Show should be number one.  After that, it’s more a matter of what is your favorite flavor of shit than what broadcast opus should place where.  Seriously, when the argument gets down to which reality show deserves to be where, I’m over it.

Comment #76: ice weasel  on  12/17  at  01:06 PM

Good list, and a reminder I really need to rent the DVDs for The Wire. I disagree on the Colbert Report being betther than The Daily Show, but the rest of the list (yours and the official) is good.

@elmo: I loved the Dresden Files, too, and I vote for the Big Bang Theory.

Comment #77: Olivia  on  12/17  at  01:31 PM

Thank you Jessicalikewhoa for that explanation. That does make me feel better. Not better about the last season but better that I wasn’t wrong about where the creators/writers were going in the first 6 seasons. A movie would be cool. I wish I had been warned about the last season before I watched it, though. I think Lane’s story line is unforgivable. It makes total sense that a known misogynist wrote it or at least oversaw it.

Comment #78: shakahi  on  12/17  at  02:02 PM

sorry I meant jessilikewhoa.

Comment #79: shakahi  on  12/17  at  02:03 PM

Does anyone else get the feeling like they are watching way too much tv?

I don’t; if anything, I wonder if I watch too little, since I’ve never seen many of the shows that people seem to really like:  Lost, The Wire, The Sopranos, etc.

A few of the shows I do watch I wonder if anyone else does.  Has anyone even heard of Hustle let alone watched it?  A very cool show, by the way.

Comment #80: Linnaeus  on  12/17  at  02:23 PM

Hmmm…

Doctor Who is hands down for best family drama.

Green Wing was probably my sitcom of the decade, vying only with The Mighty Boosh for the accolade of best comedy. Though also don’t forget the mighty Peep Show.

Comment #81: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  12/17  at  02:39 PM

My twenty something son has often told me I would like The Wire, Arrested Development and How I Met Your Mother.  This thread seconds those recommendations. 

Colbert often is too smug for my taste.  I prefer to watch TDS’s clips of actual people making fools of themselves rather than Colbert pretending to be a rightie saying ridiculous things.

Comment #82: MiddleageLiberal  on  12/17  at  02:54 PM

“The Sopranos” is to television shows what “Citizen Kane” is to movies, the one masterpiece that broke the mold and finally made it into a real art-form.

I give credit to “Buffy the Vampire Slayer”, but since it was horror with a female lead and a feminist bent, I know that it won’t get its due.

Comment #83: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/17  at  03:10 PM

The only show not mentioned that immediately popped into my mind for this list was The Riches.  Eddie Izzard and Minnie Driver are amazing and the 2nd season tore into an emotional center of my soul, leaving me as broken down as the fraying family.  Is there going to be a third season or is it dead?  Hmm…

Anyway, I second (or third or whatever) Rome (best historical presentation of Rome ever?), Six Feet Under, Dead Like Me, and was very very happy to see Friday Night Lights make Amanda’s list.  My wife and I don’t really like football, but the characters are deeply engaging and believable (we both read the book when we were in Soc classes in college, and were surprised how much of the book is reflected, at least in season one (we haven’t watched the other seasons yet)).

Comment #84: Aureas  on  12/17  at  03:17 PM

The way in which they deliver their lines, that rapid-fire bullshit that is, if anything, mimicry of The West Wing, becomes irritating in a very short while as character after character employs the exact same cadence, spitting out lines to show how clever everyone is.

No – I’m convinced that what Gilmore Girls was imitating was the really rapid-fire exchanges that happened sometimes on Moonlighting. It’s that exact cadence. Abracadaver!

Comment #85: brandon  on  12/17  at  03:21 PM

Part of the problem with Friday Night Lights not finding a big enough audience was it’s network’s shifting it around so much and then finally sticking it into Friday night, the graveyard of t.v. series.  The natural audience, people actually involved in high school football, go to high school football games on Friday nights.  And the non-football story lines were never promoted.  I have to wait for this season, probably the last until the network gets its broadcast right in January/February, since I gave up DirectTV for FIOS this past spring.

Comment #86: MiddleageLiberal  on  12/17  at  03:28 PM

Elmo: I’d forgotten about Dresden Files; you’re right, that one should go on there.

Sanctuary has potential, too, though it feels to me like it hasn’t found it’s feet yet, and I’m hoping Syfy gives it a fair chance to build up some more.

I prefer Leverage to Hustle, though.  Especially in first season, it did exactly what it set out to do, endearingly and amusingly.  Possibly I’m just soft-hearted on the band-of-modern-day-Robin-Hoods shtick, though.

Comment #87: fluffster  on  12/17  at  03:55 PM

I agree that the West Wing is good enough to be on this list, but I’m rewatching it now and discovering that it is insidiously sexist.  The male characters are constantly snickering at the concerns of the female characters and all the female assistants are played for comic relief.  There’s also lots of off-handed “you got beat by a girl” sorts of comments, and Ainsley Hayes coming in to show any liberal woman who complains about harassment that the conservative, I’m just one of the boys style of doing things is waaaay better.

Comment #88: Sidewriter  on  12/17  at  04:18 PM

oooh, and yes The Riches is amazing.  I read that it’s been cancelled though and that Eddie Izzard is trying to get a movie together to tie up the storyline.

Comment #89: Sidewriter  on  12/17  at  04:21 PM

“Gilmore Girls was and is bad television pretending to be good television. ..and only a complete moron would have failed to recognize that Jesse was an asshole and tossed aside that lovely Dean for that self-involved jerk.”

Or, a teenager? That was one of the things I liked about the show was that Lorelai and Rory would make bad choices and be self-absorbed. I liked the dialog, but I also like Whedon and Kevin Smith, so I’m cool with the ‘yeah people don’t talk like this, but it’d be fun if they did” school of dialog.

I actually didn’t finish Season 7, but I felt like the show was already running down in Season 6. But there was a lot of good stuff in there.

I guess I think “Friday Night Lights” really doesn’t get the on-field football sequences right at all, but I see why the go the over-dramatic route there. It does get the bonds of coaches and players well. And I’ve never lived in Texas, but the boosters and fans stuff seems right. Too bad about that season 2, though.

Comment #90: witless chum  on  12/17  at  04:25 PM

Oh, and “The Comeback” is worth watching. It had one HBO season, so it’s not a big investment. It’s somewhat cringe comedy, but with more human characters. It’s basically about how much it sucks to be a former female star in her ancient 30s. My wife liked it better than me and I wouldn’t say top 10, but top 20. Definitely an argument for short-and-too-the-point TV series.

Comment #91: witless chum  on  12/17  at  04:29 PM

I thought “Veronica Mars” was way better than many on the list (until the title character went to college and became all conservative), and if British TV is up for consideration, how about “The Thick of It”?

Comment #92: Luke  on  12/17  at  05:03 PM

I would’ve liked to have seen on that list: Breaking Bad, The Venture Brothers, and Pushing Daisies.

Comment #93: pablo  on  12/17  at  06:18 PM

No – I’m convinced that what Gilmore Girls was imitating was the really rapid-fire exchanges that happened sometimes on Moonlighting. It’s that exact cadence. Abracadaver!
Comment #86: brandon on 12/17 at 01:21 PM

Actually 1940s films inspired Amy Sherman-Palladino for the fast dialogue, with the fast back and forth. But I think I can see the Moonlighting reference, I was only a little kid when Moonlighting was on, but I watched it anyway because I had an unexplainable childhood crush on Bruce Willis.

Comment #94: jessilikewhoa  on  12/17  at  06:21 PM

And as i posted on LGM, Season 5 of The Wire sucked so badly it ruined the previous 4 years for me. Kind of like how The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, and the Star Wars prequels affected my enjoyment of their associated predecessors.

Comment #95: pablo  on  12/17  at  06:21 PM

Breaking Bad is awesome. People who have not seen it should watch the first three episodes at least, then decide if they want to continue (the first three episodes feature a relatively self-contained plot arc). It’s worth watching if only to see one of the most gruesome, horrific, and laugh out loud funny slow-motion shots in the history of television.

Comment #96: BunBun vonWhiskers  on  12/17  at  06:41 PM

shakahi - THANK YOU. That was the absolute worst part of the worst season of Gilmore Girls.  That, plus the fact that I couldn’t stand christopher and yet there he was weaseling his way in. Ugh.  I have all SIX seasons of that show on DVD.  There is no 7th season.


And dean was in no way lovely.  He was a controlling, emotionally abusive turdball who got married out of spike, cheated out of regret and dumped Rory three times.  He’s a turd.

Comment #97: Gypsy Lee  on  12/17  at  06:50 PM

I don’t know if I would advise someone to waste their time with the Sopranos at this point. The first 2 or 3 seasons are really good, then NOTHING FUCKING HAPPENS, then it all “climaxes” with Meadow trying to parallel park her Lexus. I think it coasted by for years on its cache as a cultural phenomenon—AND it became the hippest, most upper-middle class thing to stand around the coffee pot on Monday Morning having seen the latest episode. But that moment has passed. If it’s the kind of thing you think you might like, then go for it. But once it becomes boring to you, don’t bother sticking with it waiting for the payoff. Because their isn’t one. Unless you REAAAAALY like Steve Perry.

Comment #98: Hippie Killer  on  12/17  at  07:05 PM

Oh, and for all it’s glory, the final season of The Wire really was awful. Just terrible. Compare that to BSG, where it was really just the last 10 minutes that totally sucked. But somehow, The Wire manages to escape this criticism. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit.

Comment #99: Hippie Killer  on  12/17  at  07:09 PM

Well…. I’m actually going to do a top 10 list :

(1) The West Wing
(2) The Wire
(3) The Sopranos
(4) Futurama
(5) Arrested Development
(6) Deadwood
(7) Firefly
(8) Damages
(9) Scrubs
(10) How I Met Your Mother.

Comment #100: Aussiesmurf  on  12/17  at  07:29 PM

I ‘watch’ almost no tv for all the time I sit in front of the stupid screen.  But it makes you feel less alone in a room.  I usually knit or read while I have the tv on in the background.  But there are a couple of shows that I do watch.  I loved Gilmore Girls until it seemed that Lorelai went completely bonkers (season 7 I believe it was).  I do really like David Tenant as the new Dr Who.  They kept the idea of the show the same, made the Doctor more personable, and ramped up the production values.  Mostly it works for me but then again I grew up on the show and just can’t stay away.  And I really like Eureka even though it’s getting a little beyond ridiculous with the product placement.  Most of the rest of tv I just don’t pay attention anymore.  It’s all gotten too predicable and dumb.

Comment #101: Amalink  on  12/17  at  07:31 PM

All that said, I do think I prefer Tim and Dawn to Jim and Pam.  Jim and Pam are just too clever and cute

The Awl had a good piece on how Jim and Pam have changed as characters into something much darker, but realistically so:

All of Jim and Pam’s witty asides and eyerolls in response to their officemates’ antics have stopped being expressions of untapped potential and started to look like passive-aggressive attempts to undermine their peers—who are the only people who will socialize with them.

Glad to see Futurama get props across the board.  I don’t know how many others feel this way, but the show feels like a valentine to the NYC of the ‘80s, with a healthy dose of Jewishness dropped in, which makes it my personal catnip.  Does anyone know if they are, in fact , making more episodes after the 4 movies of the last year?

And to all the people saying TDS is better than Colbert:  You could not be more wrong.  The Colbert Report routinely satirizes aspects of our government and society that TDS would deem too “nerdy” to touch, but have huge ramifications on our lives.  For example, Colbert spent an entire episode explaining, and mocking, the Supreme Court decision from the 19th century that corporations are considered people in the eyes of the law.  I’m kind of surprised that, on a site that’s lovingly devoted to nerdiness, that more people don’t recognize that difference between them:  Stewart makes fun of nerdiness (including his own) for fear of being uncool, Colbert embraces it and thereby becomes stronger; that’s why the whole Colbert Nation thing isn’t solely a parody of right-wing talk show hosts, but a way for nerds to band together and do stuff they think is really cool.

Also, I prefer Colbert’s roster of interview subjects (for the 3rd segment, not the Better Know A District stuff).  They’re a better blend of Science and Humanities than Stewart’s, which lean more heavily towards Politics and History.  Plus, Colbert’s musical guests flat out rock (TV on The Radio, Flaming Lips, Alicia Keys [w/guest vocals by Colbert; shout out to Greenwich, yo!], the cast of Fela!).

Lastly, while I’m not going to agree with the thrust of every joke on either show, Stewart’s far more prone to fall into a herd mentality than Colbert.  Two examples:

- This past week, Stewart joked that, with the TARP money coming back, at least we can pay down the deficit, and then shows a clip of Obama saying he’d use the money to try to create more jobs, followed by a vacuum cleaner sucking money out of Stewart’s jacket pocket.  So, instead of using humor to expose the “pay down the deficit” meme as harmful, he props it up!

- I’m sure many of you have seen his softball of an interview of Steven Leavitt.  I’m confident Colbert would have slipped in the shiv so brilliantly that Leavitt wouldn’t have even known it was there.

Comment #102: NY Expat  on  12/17  at  09:47 PM

And dean was in no way lovely.  He was a controlling, emotionally abusive turdball who got married out of spike, cheated out of regret and dumped Rory three times.  He’s a turd.

Needed to be reposted for DBK and anyone else who thinks it’s just awful when shows have strong female characters that make mistakes but aren’t punished and shamed for the rest of their lives, fall in and out of love with different types of boys/men, recover from heartbreak without attempting suicide, stand by each other, fight and make-up and actually make choices based on what’s best for them, not the ones that best suit the boys/men in their lives. And of course as always you have to forget Season 7 exists.

Comment #103: shakahi  on  12/17  at  10:39 PM

Forgot to include my favorite Adult Swim show:  Superjail.  Cartoon violence done right!

Comment #104: NY Expat  on  12/18  at  12:24 AM

I got into Dresden Files for a bit but I thought the premise exhausted itself way too quick for my taste, and I couldn’t muster the desire to watch more episodes.

To be frank I was never very much into Buffy, even though I appreciate that it is really good TV. I had more interest in Angel, and I think most of it was that I found the ‘underdark’ L.A. to be more interesting than small town Sunnydale.

Comment #105: BlackBloc  on  12/18  at  01:44 AM

I was really intrigued by Rome, but after having seen both seasons, I think I actually hate it. There were reports at the time that HBO had the choice of producing the fourth and final season of Deadwood, which is my favorite show of all time, ever, ever, or the second season of Rome. I will always hold that against Rome, even if I misremember what I heard.

Rome was a soap opera that never transcended its trappings. For example, Attia was cartoonishly broad, though extremely well acted, and its jumps in time were so herky jerky that I had to expend far too much energy to justify getting caught up in the pacing of the show.

The centurions were the best part of the show, but the writers’ need to tie them into the major events of everything from the first triumvirate to the fall of Antony led to some graceless plot twists that came to be predictably melodramatic - even laughably so. 

The one misstep in Deadwood was the Earp brothers episode. That’s it. The death of Wild Bill was beautifully elegaic. You could feel the weight on his shoulders, his world-weariness as a man who knows he’s out of time. Why Carradine didn’t get an Emmy for that spot is beyond me. Hearst was terrifying and so ruthless you almost had to admire him. Deadwood could handle the legends with the small-time characters. Rome seemed to have an Earp-brothers style misstep almost every episode. It was just clumsy.

Comment #106: JoePo  on  12/18  at  04:15 AM

I don’t care how good people think The Sopranos was. The last thing needed in the mediaverse was yet another portrayal of Italian-Americans as ultraviolent thugs and gangsters. I really don’t care if they were thugs and gangsters with depth and rich interior lives and whatever.

Good for you, Amanda, for ignoring it.

Comment #107: wapsie  on  12/18  at  03:06 PM

I have to echo the Journeyman love. I think I might be sadder about its cancellation that Firefly’s. It was just done so well.

Comment #108: Matty  on  12/18  at  05:08 PM

Agree with some of the posts above talking about how Dollhouse has finally become truly great in the last few episodes.  Just in time for it to become the next lamented, cancelled too soon show that nobody watched.

Invasion was a pretty interesting take on the whole Body Snatcher thing—it dealt with some of the issues of becoming post human in a way that was really fresh.

The Middleman was a truly great show.  The first show that recreated the feel that heady Buffy banter I loved so much back in the day.

And Lost is turning out to be a truly awe inspiring work.  Keeping my fingers crossed that they can end it in a way that makes me forget that sinking feeling I had during the BSG season.

Comment #109: Dr. Locrian  on  12/18  at  07:06 PM

I’m glad to see I’m not the only person who watched “Journeyman”.  I could never convince any of my friends to watch it, and thus had nobody I could discuss the show with the day after.  I thought it was very well done, and I am still upset that they canceled it without resolving the storylines.

My new favorite show is “Criminal Minds” - watching season 1 - 3 in reruns now. Haven’t started watching the new episodes.  It’s not really “great” TV, but I have a love for any show that makes a nerdy, super-genius, social misfit a hero (and thus has many female fans crushing on the actor who plays him even though one of the hottest men in television - Shemar Moore - is also in the cast). Plus I have had an interest in the FBI’s “BAU” ever since I wrote a paper in college about the psychology of serial killers.

Comment #110: shartheheretic  on  12/19  at  11:04 PM
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