Well, there is no denying that erections are progressive!

(Great discussion at FDL book salon yesterday.)

“Furthermore, erection is fundamentally a pleasurable experience and if allowed free rein…”

That immediately made me think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbnySBqioB0

I also love the den full of what appears to be 30-year-olds making smores.  Yeah, way better than getting it on, folks.

These twits don’t think much of men or women.  Guys are rutting animals, with no control over their urges who will take anything they’re offered!  You know, I’ve actually turned down women who wanted to have sex with me—and for my own reasons, not because I thought HLA would disapprove.  So no, you’re not obligated to do it with someone just because you turned them on—you can actually make a choice!  It’s called being a grownup.  I’d tell that to these morons, but they’d probably ‘warn’ me about homosexuality or something.

It’s amazing how the Wholesome Teens in the 1951 picture all look as though they’re about 42.*  And what are they roasting those marshmallows with, pool cues?*  Is Marshmallow Pool (played in or near a fireplace) part of the abstinence lifestyle?*  Or what?

*I have crueller observations, but I’m keeping them to myself.

*“You could poke an eye out.”

*If so, is there anyplace on the Web or anything where I could get a copy of the rules?  Looks like it could be fun.

So just what will they be burning on that bonfire?

Some of us went right ahead and had our fun, even in the bad old days. We did not believe a lot of stupid propaganda.

“So just what will they be burning on that bonfire?”

[throaty conspiratorial whisper] “My friend…that’s just what it’s our job to find out.”

...‘abstinophobic’? Well, that’s certainly a new one. Is it supposed to be some sort of comeback for when abstinence pushing bigots are called out?

“You’re acting completely homophobic.”
“Oh yeah? Well at least I’m not abstinophobic! Like you!”

..Hmm.

I loved when they used the term “abstiniphobic” when these people are propagating myths to prevent people from having a healthy attitude towards sex.

When I was a young girl I had this stuff shoved down my throat, the idea that women can’t be seen sexually and still be respected. I saw virginity as a form of control to be held by a woman. Thankfully I am an avid reader and a curious person and this idea was soon trampled beneath reason.

In a conversation a while back me and my boyfriend were discussing our histories with porn. As a girl I always had to hide it. At one point, because my dad was so unfamiliar with the idea of women enjoying watching porn, he pinned the offensive site history on an older brother (o_0). My boyfriend’s parents sat him down and told him to respect the women he oggled online and to respect the women he dated and had relationships with and their boundaries. What a difference.

You know, it’s interesting - a lot of the advice being given here from both time periods isn’t bad advice at all.  Yeah, some of it is ridiculous, like the bit about not reading fiction.  But things like not giving in to peer pressure or what the media tells you, knowing the reputation of potential mates to spot someone who could be emotionally, physically, or sexually abusive (or even just not compatible with you), and even dressing and acting in a way that projects your personal values (whatever they may be) are all good ideas.  The problem is that here, they’re being wrapped up in a larger message that is fundamentally repressive.

Still, I think all of us older folks have to remember that junior high and high school kids are pretty dumb sometimes.  Advice that may seem obvious or even patronizing to an adult may be quite useful to someone just starting to explore his or her sexuality.  Those of us on the more sensible side of the abstinence issue need to work harder to present practical, useful advice to the kids being targeted by these materials.

At first I thought the woman in the red sweater and the man standing were parents watching their kids, but methinks I may be mistaken.

Slightly off topic but I loved this from blinkytreefrog’s post:

But the routine duties that accompany homemaking will fill your time so that you will hardly have opportunity to realize that your cherished day dreams have come true.

You see that! Women are happy when they’re scrubbing and cleaning and cooking they’re just too darn busy to realize it! Those silly women who up and left the kitchen didn’t know what they were missing because they didn’t know they were really happy! ...or something…it makes sense I swear!

LOL @ “abstiniphobic”!

I guess what these 50s throwbacks are really pushing is early marriage.  Lots of couples got married throughout history and ended up having a “big” premature baby 7 months later.

Dave: I’ve been thinking about that lately too.  I am all for sex-positive feminism for grown ups, but I do think that teenagers should be discouraged from getting it on, but in an honest and respectful way.  I wonder who is doing that?

I am all for sex-positive feminism for grown ups, but I do think that teenagers should be discouraged from getting it on

Why?  Wouldn’t it be better to, I dunno, accept that teenagers are probably going to have sex anyway, and make sure that the ones that do have access to contraception and know how to use it properly?  I personally don’t see anything wrong with teenagers’ being sexually active, so long as they are responsible about it.  Personally, I waited until I was 18 (and therefore not a minor), but that was lack of means and opportunity.

Speaking comparatively of responsibility and teenagers, you can get your beginner’s driver’s license at 14 in Alberta and a few other places, and your full license at 16.  Is fucking significantly more risky than driving?

“My friend…that’s just what it’s our job to find out.”

“Oh, look at that girl Lois, holding that LONG-HARD-SUPPLE-ROD, er, STICK… she’s done this sort of thing before, I can just tell… look how she knows JUST-HOW-CLOSE-TO-GET-IT… near the flame, but not TOO near… TEASING it, getting that marshmallow WARM-DELECTABLE-SOFT-GOOEY, ready to burst and be ravished…OMG, where’s the bathroom????”

O-kay...I guess at this point we can say that we have found out. 

(Maybe it really is true that they call them “s’mores” for a reason.)  Alright, alright, I’ll stop.

As any 50s B-movie can tell you teenagers in the 50s often looked 45.

Always remember kids, having a baby is the greatest joy in a woman’s life and every woman should be so lucky.  Unless of course she wants an abortion in which case pregnancy and having a child is punishment for her whorish ways!

On the whole dressing modestly thing, wouldn’t the next logical step be for women to go out of there way to make themselves unattractive. I can just hear the marriage proposal now:

“While I find you complete unappealing physically, I am so taken by your modest ways and subservient attitude that I am willing to overlook your repulsive appearance and request your hand in marriage. Furthermore, since you, as a modest women, must necessarily find the act of sexual intercourse to be repulsive, I promise not to trouble you in this regard save once on our wedding night, and thereafter only infrequently and solely for the purpose of impregnating you, that you may experience the joys of motherhood. Of course, as a man I have certain needs which I may choose to satisfy with women who possess the physical attractiveness you so manifestly lack, but you should not allow this to trouble you, as I can assure you I will feel no love or respect towards these women, but only lust for their bodies. So, when should we have the wedding?”

All the stats I’ve seen seem to suggest very strongly that the way to discourage teenagers from having sex until they’re ready for it is to give them lots of honest information, lots of support for whatever their choices are, and lots of options for their expected adult lives. Abstinence-only has a really lousy record on actually delaying sex (second only to its abominable record for preventing safe sex).

Of course it’s hard to disentangle the crappy effectiveness of abstinence-only propaganda from those of the patriarchal culture that typically surrounds it. When you teach women that they’re supposed to do what men tell them, and that their only worth is in housekeeping, provision of sexual release and having babies, it shouldn’t be any surprise messages ostensibly telling them to assert themselves by saying no are of minimal effect.

And I just love how since women have their parts on the inside, they can’t possibly be aroused or find arousal an enjoyable experience.  “See, their clitorises don’t jump out of their skirts, so they’re just numb little recepticles blah blah blah…”

Ahem - it said “less sensitive”. Presumably this is because since our bits leap up and do the macarana while your bits just sit there and seep.  Really, you’re all just a bunch of sexual slackers, girls.

#1. Most arcades these days are 18+ affairs.

#2. I don’t know about you guys, but when I play DDR at home it quickly becomes strip DDR, as I shed clothes as I’m too sweaty/hot/confined.

I know what they’re thinking. AH! they’ll be too tired for sex after DDR! Ha. No. They’ll be all hot and sweaty and groovin’ and all that.

Be fair, people: are those 1951 “teenagers” any older than the ones on the average 2008 TV show on the CW?

I also agree that the principles these people are trying to promote are correct—as a limited special case, just like Newtonian physics or Ayn Rand’s morality.  If you draw a tiny circle and ignore everything outside it, it makes perfect sense.

The other day I was watching a TV show in which an 18-year-old girl displaced from 1953 was running wild in the 2003 club scene, and had to be taken aside and warned against the new dangers of modern times.  Problem was, the specific “danger” mentioned was hanging out alone with a man she’d just met—a thing which was vastly *more* dangerous in the 1950s than it is now.

And why was it more dangerous then?  Because people like the authors of the quoted texts (1951 and 2008 alike) made excuses for aggressive, disrespectful male behavior, instead of telling boys firmly that rape and sexual harassment were wrong, period.

Dr. Psycho, perchance were you watching Torchwood? That was a plot in one of their episodes and with this:

And why was it more dangerous then?  Because people like the authors of the quoted texts (1951 and 2008 alike) made excuses for aggressive, disrespectful male behavior, instead of telling boys firmly that rape and sexual harassment were wrong, period.

But you said people in 1951 AND 2008 alike are doing the same thing, so how was it more dangerous in the 1950s if we’re still just doing the same thing? Wouldn’t it be that it’s not more dangerous, it’s just that nothing has changed.

I’d say that the added use of date rape drugs probably has made things much more dangerous for young women today.

I’d say that the added use of date rape drugs probably has made things much more dangerous for young women today.

You have any evidence to back that up? My suspicion is that the date-rape drug of choice, alcohol, isn’t any more dangerous than it has always been. As for other drugs, google “mickey finn”—these things have been around for a long time.

About the photo/age thing: Feh, you guys underestimate the influence of culture on your perceptions.  I distinctly remember looking at a drag-racing magazine in the ‘70s where they had before/after pictures of racers of ten-years-ago/‘present’.  To a man, the ‘present’ picture appeared younger because their hairstyles & clothing were more current.

Teenagers should be encouraged to explore their sexuality at a safe pace that feels right to them, not buckle under outside pressures.  Why is peer pressure bad but adult pressure good?  You can’t flip on good sex like a switch.  You need the exploratory teenage years.

There are a lot of things that teenagers aren’t allowed to do because it’s generally accepted that their judgment is poor due to lack of life experience. Not that my experiences can be generalized to the entirety of teenagerdom, but I know that I wasn’t ready for sex when I lost my virginity, and I was 19. Of course, one of the reasons for that was that my parents (Mom in particular) were strictly no-sex-until-marriage, so I didn’t feel comfortable discussing my early teenage explorations with them. If I had, I might not have made the mistake I did.

I think this is just another both/and situation—educate kids thoroughly about the positives and negatives of sex and the details of birth control, be open to conversation, encourage them to explore their sexuality within safe boundaries, but also encourage them to take it slowly, with the knowledge that churning hormones will make you want to push it faster than you otherwise would feel comfortable going. There has to be a balance between “I wish I was more talented/experienced/adept at sex” and “I wish I hadn’t just slept with that guy,” and balance is a hard thing for teenagers to find.

I hate to admit it, but ‘Serving dinner at a homeless shelter is a great idea for a date.” If you ask a girl to do that and she says yes, you know it’s in the bag. She wants you, and she wants you bad.

That’s hilarious.  And not dissimilar to my habit of taking dates out to a museum early on.  It’s a great way to see how much they just totally want to do me, vs. how much we actually have in common.  Not to mention that it’s a great weed out for people who are inevitably going to end up annoying the shit out of me.

Question, though—what happens when really, she just likes to volunteer?

I also love the den full of what appears to be 30-year-olds making smores.  Yeah, way better than getting it on, folks.

Am I the only one who noticed the uneven gender balance in that picture and thought, “Okay, which couple is planning a threesome later?”

No, Mnemo, you’re not.

The statistics don’t back you up.  The rape rate has gone down 85% since feminists made it an issue in the 70s.

Totally wrong, and I retract my previous uneducated statement.

I don’t know about that last picture.  If that was me sitting on the floor, my face staring between those snugly-clad thighs, ...

excuse me…

Am I the only one who noticed the uneven gender balance in that picture and thought, “Okay, which couple is planning a threesome later?”
Me, I was wondering which was Bob, which Carol, which Alice and which Ted…?

If you read random older fiction, it’s kinda remarkable how much date rape and sexual harassment are taken for granted. Not just that it happens, but that it will be considered the woman’s fault.

(See, e.g., The Case of the Waylaid Wolf, where the only objection to the decedent using the secretarial pool as a personal harem is his lack of interest in consent, and resisting a rapist was considered evidence of a motive for murder rather than the basis of a claim of self-defense.)

“A memorable chapter had to do with how masturbation would “sap your vital nervous energy” or some such crap.  It was barely one generation away from the old “mental institutions are FILLED with people who are chronic masturbators!” trope.”

There you go again Mike.  Maybe you are a candidate for counseling.

Page 33: Kissing and familiar fondling of a young woman’s person can never be an innocent pastime if a high moral and spiritual character is to be maintained as an ideal.

Except in Eden.

I first found out about “Mickey Finn” from an old W.C. Fields movie. Other than that, it’s not knowledge I’ve ever had much use for, except as a reminder of how the media takes old threats (e.g. predatory pen pals who scam the innocent for sex or money) into new ones (e.g. internet chat room predators who scam the innocent for sex or money).

It’s not plagiarism… it remained in the zeitgeist.

Why is there blood smattered on the wall in that abstinence picture?

UltraMagnus, yes, Mrs. Psycho and I were watching the “Out of Time” episode of Torchwood the other night.  The Mrs. noted that the pilot’s trousers shouldn’t have had a front zip, but otherwise she (who actually lived through the period) thought the costumes were pretty spot on.

And did you note that someone made excuses for the teenage girl’s naivete by saying “Her parents are religious”?

Many people in 1951 made excuses for male aggression, but it’s much less socially acceptable now (except among oddball types like the authors of “Just For Girls”).

Jennifer Cascadia, don’t ask questions if you aren’t ready to hear the answers.

I have to confess, my first response to that picture was to ask that same question about the “blood” on the wall. If nothing else, it’s an example of how the medium can influence how we perceive things. While the flower on the mantlepiece is barely noticeable if you look at the whole picture, if you’re scrolling down, it’s literally the first thing you see, and it became the focal point of the picture for me. Something like “Why haven’t all those happy squares noticed the poltergeist manifesting right above their heads?”

To elaborate on what others have said about the list of great dating ideas, I thought that #7-10 were would all make “great dates for geeks.” If your prospective date is cool with playing DDR or laser tag, they’re unlikely to freak out if you indulge in the occasional Fire Emblem marathon. Unless you accidentally save over their file, of course.

Finally, I admit to being somewhat discourage by the 50’s abstinence material. I’d been hoping that the current attitude among pro-abstinence groups and certain would-be education reformers that boys are basically semi-sentient animals who operate entirely on physical reflex and can’t be expected to calm themselves long enough to behave in civilized society was evidence that the anti-feminist and MRA types were running out of excuses. To see that the same arguments were being made half a century ago, and haven’t died out yet, is rather disheartening.

W. Kiernan: I love the look on Adam’s face: “Oo-oh, boobies!”

Weirdly enough, the 1951 advice seems more sane to me than the 2008 stuff. Maybe because the stuff from the fifties is so vaguely worded that it seems innocent, or because I’m not up on the keywords,  or because they’ve had fifty years to refine the weirdness via the Religious Right? The bit about watching who you hang out with so as to avoid users is good advice. Although the rest of it, especially “girls don’t get horny” and “fiction is a bad thing”, are just silly.

(I actually knew a preacher about my grandpa’s age, who said he had decided that fiction reading was against his conscience. I couldn’t imagine living that way. And I ran into a couple of leaflets in a church the other week that literally WERE from the fifties or sixties, all about how girls shouldn’t encourage boys by their slutty ways. I was intrigued by the time-warp, and weirded out by the content, at the same time.)

All these folks who think girls don’t have very strong hormonal urges as teenagers need to either have a look inside my head ten years ago, or else just google “Fanfiction.net” + “Orlando Bloom”....

Also:

That flower thing does look an awful lot like a blood splash. It’s the first thing I thought when I saw the picture.

And the list of dates actually sounds pretty interesting. I’d probably do all those as a way to get talking to the person, before I brought up the idea of making out. (I lose my nerve easily, what can I say.)

bethany: I do think that teenagers should be discouraged from getting it on,

Why? It is not as if one’s 18th birthday causes a flip to switch and from one day to the next a person is all mature and responsible and reasonable. Also, hang-ups and unreasonable expectations build up over one’s teenage years don’t disappear with the 18th birthday, either. If you felt guilty and wrong about wanting to have/having sex at 17 years 11 months and 27 days, you won’t magically get a new set of wiring within the next few days.

IMO the time to start getting it on is when you can handle birth control and STD prevention, and know your own mind and body. Some people can to that when they are 14, other still fail at 40.

I wonder who is doing that?

The teen magazine everyone read when I was in school (not in the US) was very consistent in their line of “don’t if you do not feel good about it, this is how it works, this is what to expect, here’s how to get birth control, and this is how you use it, and be respectful to each other.” Considering that we had two teenage (=18/19yo) pregnancies in our school in the four years I was old enough to notice, it seems to have worked, though I haven’t the foggiest if it did so by discouraging teenagers from having sex, or by enabling them to be mature about it.

Dr. Psycho: The other day I was watching a TV show in which an 18-year-old girl displaced from 1953 was running wild in the 2003 club scene, and had to be taken aside and warned against the new dangers of modern times.  Problem was, the specific “danger” mentioned was hanging out alone with a man she’d just met—a thing which was vastly *more* dangerous in the 1950s than it is now. 

Everything is more dangerous when you’re out of your depth and unfamiliar with the laws and customs of the place (or time).

What I found most disturbing about Emma (?) in “Out of Time” was that she seemed to lack the concept of “consent” when she got The Speech. OK, so it was funny. But in a sad way.

“Wouldn’t you want to know that your husband fell in love with you and not just your body?”

Exactly a commonly given reason among Muslims to wear hijab. What I find funny about the abstinence-only people is that they are islamophobes and supporters of many Islamic traditions, at the same time and without their heads exploding.

I think this is just another both/and situation—educate kids thoroughly about the positives and negatives of sex and the details of birth control, be open to conversation, encourage them to explore their sexuality within safe boundaries, but also encourage them to take it slowly, with the knowledge that churning hormones will make you want to push it faster than you otherwise would feel comfortable going. There has to be a balance between “I wish I was more talented/experienced/adept at sex” and “I wish I hadn’t just slept with that guy,” and balance is a hard thing for teenagers to find.

I have to agree with this.  And I don’t care so much about the 17, 18, and 19-year-olds.  But we have 13- and 14-year-olds having sex, getting pregnant, getting STDs, etc.  Now, maybe there are 14-year-olds out there who are mature enough to make these kinds of decisions, but I’ve never met one.  If it makes sense to criminalize a 20-year-old sleeping with a 14-year-old (and I think it does), maybe that says something about how ready a 14-year-old is to have sex?  We have to educate kids starting at a much younger age, but we also have to encourage them to take it slowly and warn them of the risks.

I think to say that we should never discourage kids - no matter how young - from having sex is a very reactionary position.  We should discourage young teens from sex, drugs, alcohol, operating heavy machinery, skydiving, and any other risky behaviors that they’re not mentally or emotionally ready to handle yet.  The key is “discourage”, not “forbid” or “guilt into compliance”, because that will only encourage them to rebel and do what we tell them not to, but with far less awareness of how to do it safely.

I learned about a Mickey Finn from the musical Annie. I had the soundtrack on vinyl. The girls are singing about drugging Miss Hannigan so they won’t have to do their chores.

Jesus H. Christ on a spoon…I can’t freakin’ believe copies of this book still exist.  When I posted on the “The Curse” thread, that was the book I was talking about, except I think mine may have been a slightly later edition; maybe mid-1950’s.

If I recall correctly, the book was put out by Modess, (the sanitary products manufacturer).

I remember the book well.  I was given the book in 1966 and it was already anachronistic then.

Mnemosyne, I did wonder what arrangements or acrobatics might ensue. The couple on the far right, however, have obviously developed a langue de l’amour all their own ... albeit with bisexual overtones, no doubt about it.

P.S.  Upon further inspection, I note with mixed emotions that that couple is almost certainly into the kink. I guess strap-ons were hard to come by in Wellsville. Uh, maybe I should rephrase that ...

idlemind: I think I remember that!  Was this the one in which W.C. Fields asks the bartender to give his friend a “Michael Finn”? 

I am all for sex-positive feminism for grown ups, but I do think that teenagers should be discouraged from getting it on

I’m sad you only believe in sex-positive feminism for grown ups… don’t teenagers deserve the same feminist beliefs as adults?? you think we should just lie to children until they turn 18 and then tell them we’ve just been lying to them cuz we’re so horrified by the idea of teenagers having sex lives just like normal adults?

everyone deserves an honest education, a good sex life, and none of this sexist bullshit, including teenagers.

@casey, others:

Being a former teenager, I completely agree that certain behaviors should be discouraged until the idea of responsibility can be imprinted enough into their brains. (See: teenagers +alcohol). Just like one should know their limits re: booze (because drinking till you puke really isn’t as much fun as it’s cracked up to be), unless you’re willing to use two methods of birth control or accept the consequences of not, you shouldn’t be going at it. (Condom + pill, etc.)

-This message brought to you by the product of a broken condom.

irene, i agree about encouraging responsibility, but part of learning one’s limits usually involves well, drinking until you puke a couple of times to find out how much it takes.  sex is different, and of course we should always, ALWAYS stress the importance of using protection, but fact is most people lose their virginity as teenagers.  sex is part of growing up and it’s kind of one of those things you have to DO to get better at and to know your own body.

I call shenannigans on the following quotes from the “helpful” informational tracts:

“Wouldn’t you want to know that your husband fell in love with you and not just your body?”

Last time I looked, “who I am” does, in fact, have a lot to do with my body.  I get so sick of the mind/blody soul/body duality stuff.  We ARE our bodies!  While physical appearance is not the sum total of who I am, I am a physical being, and that colors every bit of who “me” is.  I want my husband to love all of me- my body and my personality.  Is that really too much to ask?

“Childbirth is a normal process, however, and the mother soon forgets the pain and discomfort.”

Whatever.  It’s been 9 years since my 33 hour nightmare of “pain and discomfort”, and I’m still not feeling warm and fuzzy about the whole thing.  It sucked, big time, and I’m not repeating it.  I remember my well-meaning but out of touch ex mother-in-law telling me the same thing.  Sure, I can’t recall every sensation, but I am smart enough to remember that hours of unproductive back labor hurt like hell, and that I don’t want to repeat it EVER AGAIN.  Sorry, natalists.  You’re just not going to get me to go back for seconds on that.

“Don’t get sucked in to the decisons of people who don’t have your best interests in mind.”

But DO totally buy into the advice pushed by an abstinence ed tract, written by people who don’t even know you?  Wow.  The non-logic there makes my head hurt. 

The really sad thing about these stupid booklets is they often ARE the only source of information a kid gets on touchy subjects.  The stupid little “This Is Menstruation” movie and booklet they had us view in 5th grade really was my first introduction to that subject, because no one at home ever bothered to tell me about it.  One of my main goals is to make sure my son is never dependent on the information from school when it comes to sex.

“Abstinophobic!”  Hah!  Abstinophobia isn’t the issue.  What these people should be fearing is “ignoraphobia” from how they love to hide themselves from the facts.

[All these folks who think girls don’t have very strong hormonal urges as teenagers need to either have a look inside my head ten years ago, or else just google “Fanfiction.net” + “Orlando Bloom”....]
agreed girls do have very strong hormonal urges as teenagers. it’s quite silly to assume that it’s just the guys who want sex. it’s not quite as easy to find the juicy stories as it used to be. mediaminer.org is the better site now thanks to some soccer mom who went and panic-ed over what her kid was reading ff.net went crazy and took away the nc-17 section completely. if a 9-17yrold wants to find and read the stories with sex in them they will find a way. i know i did when i was that young. On that note the internet is a godsend for finding information when your family and school refuse to even talk about sex, finding planned parenthood online was my best source for a basic understanding of sex ed because i was only told to not have sex period. if i didn’t have the internet i would not know beyond what i could get hold of at a public library. which wouldn’t be much since i live in arizona.