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Next entry: Michael Barone: Why Did The Kennedys Love Getting Shot So Much? Previous entry: From populist to individualist to populist in the blink of an eye

Once more into the breech

Sex

Okay, of all the stuff I read this weekend about the Values Voters Summit, this had to be the best.  Michael Schwartz, Sen. Coburn’s chief of staff, accused pornography of creating homosexuality.  First, he inferred a natural hatred of gay men in young boys that we should supposedly applaud.

But it is my observation that boys at that age have less tolerance for homosexuality than just about any other class of people. They speak badly about homosexuality. And that’s because they don’t want to be that way. They don’t want to fall into it. And that’s a good instinct.

I love how, when people teach children a prejudice, and then the children parrot that prejudice, the parents gleefully announce that the kids thought of it on their own.  It’s like when people claim that 4-year-old girls are just born wanting princess shit, and the heavy amount of marketing aimed at them has nothing to do with their desires.  What kids are born with is a lack of context, and they spend the vast majority of their time trying to figure out how to be.  If that was your only job, you’d be a fast learner, too.  Anyway, boys are good homobigots until….they see naked women.

He said, “all pornography is homosexual pornography because all pornography turns your sexual drive inwards. Now think about that. And if you, if you tell an 11-year-old boy about that, do you think he’s going to want to go out and get a copy of Playboy? I’m pretty sure he’ll lose interest. That’s the last thing he wants.” You know, that’s a, that’s a good comment. It’s a good point and it’s a good thing to teach young people.

In other words, try to scare your boys off using pornography by telling them that it will make them gay.  When a wingnut says stuff like this—-that naked ladies make you gay or that every man really wants to have gay sex, but has to fight the urge like mad—-I’m forced to wonder if the entire “family values” movement would fall apart if every gay man in the closet just came out already.  Because seriously, if porn did push a few more dudes into homosexuality, who gives a shit? 

With that in mind, I want to link this excellent post by Becky Sharper, who has a wonderful sense of irreverence in the face of people who are going to give you the least generous read imaginable when you suggest that perhaps porn isn’t all roses and fountains of gold.  I hesitate to open this can of worms, because when I pointed out that the facial exists in porn as a symbolic marker of female degradation, many, many, many people deliberately misread me, claiming that I said that coming on the outside was wrong, or that if any touched your face, it was wrong, or that you’re a bad person if you like being degraded in bed.  All I said was that it’s funny to me that something that is overtly about employing the “this slut deserves to be humiliated” trope in porn gets to send its message to an audience that wants to hear negative things about sexual women, and the rest of us will pretend that they just didn’t say that.

Even though, from my perspective, the implicit argument—-that women who have a lot of sex, or with a lot of men are sluts who deserve humiliation—-is anti-sex.  In other words, for all the sex in porn, much of it adheres to the “family values” narrative, where a sexual woman is used up and deserves nothing but abuse. Being truly pro-sex, in my view, means believing that women who have sex, a lot of sex, or a lot of partners do not forfeit a single ounce of their dignity or humanity. 


Becky notes that the heavy use of anal sex in porn has resulted in an uptick in anal sex in real life.  And though I know a good half of the commenters will pretend I didn’t say this: This isn’t, in and of itself, a bad thing.  Just like coming on the outside is a fine way to spice things up, anal sex also can be a lot of fun for straight couples in the right circumstances.  But porn morphs rather mundane sex acts into tropes about hurting and humiliating women, and then those tropes are repeated in bedrooms for that purpose.  The problem with this is that many of the women engaging in these deliberately humiliating behaviors don’t get off on being submissives or being degraded.  They’re doing it just because they thing that’s what sex is. 

I repeat: like coming on the outside, there’s a way to do anal sex that isn’t about hurting, humiliating, and punishing a sexual woman.  (If only I knew the secret number of times to repeat to avoid being misread!) There are entire excellent books about it, and whole lines of sex toys that exist solely to exploit the sensitivity of that area of the body.  In fact, straight men can put things up their butt and like it, too!  This is not being questioned.  (I predict 5 comments before someone suggests I questioned this.)

But porn doesn’t show anal sex in the pro-woman way that many practice it, where there’s an attempt to warm you up, make you comfortable, go slow, and stop if there’s any discomfort.  Like Becky says:

Problem is, hetero mainstream porn isn’t depicting the kind of careful, attentive interaction that makes anal sex pleasurable. In fact, in porn there’s no attention paid to the woman’s pleasure—or even her comfort—at all. The male actors just plunge in and start pounding.

Young people get very little sex education to begin with, and absolutely none when it comes to things like anal, which you should approach with caution, because you can hurt yourself.  So when we say porn is causing an escalation in the amount of anal sex with young people, there’s a real cause to believe that it’s being practiced as taught in porn—-something that debases women, and therefore if it hurts or you’re made to feel dirty, that’s part of the “fun”.  Indeed, I have a strong reason to believe that older people fall into this trap, too.  Periodically, you’ll read advice columns about sex or listen to the Savage Love Podcast, and there will be a woman who feels bad because the pain of anal sex is so unbearable, and she doesn’t want to keep going, but I guess she feels she has to.  There’s no doubt what’s going on there—-he just plunged in, maybe not even using lube, and because porn reflects our society, and therefore sends the message that sex is something women perform for men (and therefore, like good performers, we believe the show must go on!), she simply endured.  And now she’s scared, for good reason, to try again.  Portrayals of effective, pleasurable anal sex are stuck in books shoved in the back shelves of feminist-minded sex shops.

Jaclyn Friedman has an article up at the Washington Post that addresses exactly the concerns I have about porn tropes showing up in bedrooms, and how women who aren’t into humiliation in bed may feel they have no choice.  But because what she’s addressing doesn’t happen behind closed doors, so perhaps there will be less misunderstanding.  Her article is about women who embrace Tucker Max, in all his misogynist, flirting-with-rape glory.

The women in his stories are insulted, tricked, coerced, traded and discarded. One conquest is vomited on and videotaped without her consent…..

In retrospect, we really should have seen Tucker Max coming. We’ve already, after all, replaced the fiercely independent vampire slayer Buffy with the helpless vampire lover Bella. The cult of Tucker Max is just a photo negative of the “Twilight” phenomenon: Both cultures view women as irresistible objects that tempt men into doing dangerous, uncontrollable things. If Edward Cullen were less stoic and less monogamous, he’d be Tucker Max.

Max girls have worked out that sexual purity is a trap—they’ve even worked out that there’s power to be found in proudly claiming their sexual identity. But they seem to have no idea that they can use that power and still demand respect from men.

Jaclyn and I aren’t expressing concern because we’re meanies who enjoy judging young women for exposing themselves to male disrespect that might feel exciting at the time—-you’re getting attention and rebelling!—-but make them feel weird, icky, and debased afterward.  I don’t know about Jaclyn specifically, but a lot of feminists I know express these concerns, because we’ve been there.  We’ve let guys push us around, because we didn’t know there were options.  We built up bravado about it, because we didn’t see any way out.  We thought the choices were be treated poorly or be celibate.  We didn’t know you could say no to someone shooting on your face and enjoying his power over you while you frantically tried not to cry because come was leaking into your eyes.  We didn’t know that there was a way to do anal sex that wasn’t painful, but was actually fun for you.  And some of us took a long time to learn otherwise, because there’s few people out there saying that we can demand respect and still have fun, because so many liberals are cowed by the fear that expressing such a message brings down the hoards of people claiming you’re anti-sex.  Which is awful, because most of us start to practice what we fear to preach once we get a little power and a few, hard-to-find books. But again, what’s really anti-sex is a message that tells women the sole path to being sexual is being treated like a pincushion.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:11 AM • (140) Comments

What you said.

Anal sex can be awesome, orgasmic and incredible. And some of us were doing it in the 80s to stay “technical virgins” and avoid pregnancy. Of course, I learned about it from a movie called “Young Lady Chatterly,” which showed a slow, gentle anal scene, but portrayed it as still a little uncomfortable at first. If I’d learned from the porn I see today? It would have been miserable instead of slightly uncomfortable then turning great.

As for the porn thing, all I can think of is a Simpson’s cartoon: “Due, you kissed a girl? That is so gay.”

Comment #1: Angelia Sparrow  on  09/21  at  11:27 AM

Why a four year old child could understand the evils of homosexuality.

Run out and get me a four year old child, I can’t make head or tail out of it.

Comment #2: Sarcastro  on  09/21  at  11:28 AM

Bear in mind that this is Tom Coburn’s chief of staff.  Coburn rather notoriously proclaimed several years ago that there was an epidemic of lesbianism in the high school restrooms of southeastern Oklahoma.  Now, I am a native Okie, and the southeast part of the state is better known for rednecks; the Klan; Choctaw bingo; moonshine, meth, & marijuana production; high teen pregnancy rates; illiteracy; and a strong suspicion of inbreeding.  Rampant homosexuality does not even make the list of things you would expect to see in the area.

Comment #3: DrDick  on  09/21  at  11:30 AM

First, he inferred a natural hatred of gay men in young boys that we should supposedly applaud.

Funny he should mention the inclinations of young boys because - a) you’re never going to find more experimental gay sex than in the 11-13 year old young boy demographic and b) really?  12 year olds are the new gold standard for adult conduct?

I mean, I’ve seen them kick around the “And a child shall lead them!” quote enough times to know they love it.  But at 12 years old, I was still suspicious of girl cooties, made an effort not to miss the latest episode of Power Rangers, and giggled when anyone said the word “poop”.  This is the platonic ideal of the Macho American Man?  Really?  I mean… really?

At the least, it does explain a lot about the GOP leadership.

Comment #4: Zifnab  on  09/21  at  11:34 AM

It is pretty frustrating that discussion of the mainstreaming of degradation, and how that’s bad without any sort of context, gets conflated with a strawman argument that degradation, in any context, is bad.

Our culture just lacks honest self-appraisal, I think.  Like the pastors who are convinced that every man is constantly tempted to engage in gay sex, a lot of commenters here in the threads that pop up about porn occasionally are convinced you must be condemning sex acts those commenters enjoy, rather than condemning the culture that celebrates the negative attitudes behind those sex acts without discussion or context.

I mean, even as I’m saying this I want to add an apologia for kink, even though you didn’t say one negative word about kink in your post.  It’s a hard urge to fight, I think.

Comment #5: Ferox  on  09/21  at  11:45 AM

The funny thing about Tucker Max is that he portrays himself as a rebellious breaker of social norms. In reality, his womanizing and obsession with machoness is about as socially normative as it gets. He’s reinforcing millennia-old male dominance and pretending that he’s edgy and progressive for it.

Comment #6: Triplanetary  on  09/21  at  11:49 AM

My boys have NEVER displayed hatred of homosexuality.  Sure, they think sex is kind of gross - but they don’t care who is putting what into whom or licking who’s what when they say it is gross.  That’s because public relationships and private behavior are ... DIFFERENT!

Maybe its because they knew kids with two moms or two dads and have friends who have close relatives who are gay ... and their parents never raised them that way, hmmmm?  I doubt it has anything to do with “natural”, because their friends who were similarly raised with the notion that adults marry adults are the same way: sex is gross, icky, yuck ... but visiting Uncle Jeff and Uncle Mort is fun!

Comment #7: Ms Kate  on  09/21  at  11:49 AM

How is it gay to “turn your sexual drive inwards”? If being gay just means wanting to fuck yourself, why do we bother with partners? Is it just that Michael Schwartz can’t wrap his brain around the fact that he’s touching a penis and enjoying it, and there has to be something wrong with that, because goddamn it feels good? It could be that he’s thinking about naked men all the time he’s jerking off and realizes there’s something gay about that, but it could also be that he’s a feeble moron.

Comment #8: junk science  on  09/21  at  11:53 AM

The only way I could see pron making guys gay is because heterosexual porn doesn’t make much of anything look like fun, while a lot of gay porn looks like a good romp.

Comment #9: Ms Kate  on  09/21  at  11:53 AM

Maybe its because they knew kids with two moms or two dads and have friends who have close relatives who are gay ... and their parents never raised them that way, hmmmm?  I doubt it has anything to do with “natural”, because their friends who were similarly raised with the notion that adults marry adults are the same way: sex is gross, icky, yuck ... but visiting Uncle Jeff and Uncle Mort is fun!

It’s the exact same thing with racism, you just don’t hear the “kids are naturally racist” argument as much anymore thanks to advancing anti-racism in our culture.  But I distinctly remember, when I was 12, hearing a racist joke at lunch in school (in Arkansas, for what it’s worth), laughing because everyone else thought it was funny and by all that’s holy I wanted to fit in, and coming home to repeat it to my mom.  She sternly set me straight, and there are lots of other examples of being raised to be feminist, anti-racist and all-around tolerant that had nothing to do with counteracting natural urges, and everything to do with correcting the dominant cultural teachings I was getting outside the home.

Comment #10: Ferox  on  09/21  at  11:54 AM

We didn’t know you could say no to someone shooting on your face and enjoying his power over you while you frantically tried not to cry because come was leaking into your eyes.

I don’t even know what to think here. I might cry myself.

Comment #11: junk science  on  09/21  at  11:58 AM

Because seriously, if porn did push a few more dudes into homosexuality, who gives a shit? 

The answer is pretty clearly Michael Schwartz, as it seems pretty apparent that he’s one of those few dudes.  I know a lot of boys who saw playboys when we were twelve, and it invariably only exacerbated their interest in mating with girls.  Naked girls turning boys off heterosexual sex?  No, naked girls turning homosexual men off of heterosexual sex, by confronting them with it.

Comment #12: Brian  on  09/21  at  11:59 AM

Actually this assessment of porn’s attitude toward women is so accurate it hurts. It hurts because I like, & use, porn, but can’t help but notice this same thing.

When you are watching porn, there is often a very basic problem. The problem is, you are watching the sex act in the porn, and asking yourself, could the woman possibly be into this? And because you’re a somewhat perceptive person, you have to say, “there is no way the woman is actually into this, it would be uncomfortable at best, and she’s not even warmed up”. I’m not talking about BDSM, I’m talking about supposed ‘vanilla’ porn. Some 1970s/1980s porn seems marginally better on this level, and the sex acts seem like things that actually could be enjoyed by the female partner as well as the male.

But overall, yes, the portrayals in porn often look uncomfortable to the female partner. And this seems to go with the very real trend in porn, that the exploitation of the female is now a feature not a bug, and is even celebrated. Yes, it is a bizzarrely anti-sex scenario.

Or anyway, I think it’s crap.

Comment #13: atheist  on  09/21  at  12:02 PM

We’re not anti-sex.  We’re pro-sex.

We’re anti-RAPE.

Sex is something people do TOGETHER.  It’s not something one person does to another.  It’s not something a debased and powerless person allows to be done to him/her.  It’s a mutually enjoyable activity engaged in by consenting parties.

Sex is fun.

Rape?  Not so much.

The difference is respect for all parties’ autonomy and desires.

Comment #14: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  09/21  at  12:09 PM

I’m with junk science, here. My opinion is that every extreme right-wing guy who complains about homosexuality is really just fighting the urge to tackle and ravage the men anywhere near him.

In response to Amanda, when you label an act as degrading, a very connotative word, you will get pushback. You were much more careful with judging sex acts in this post, and I agree with pretty much all of it. Your last post had the attitude of somebody who always feels the liberty to blurt out what they “know” are somebody’s motivations in public.

Comment #15: I Heart Puppies  on  09/21  at  12:11 PM

I mean, is the whole logical argument here, “If kids see naked girls and don’t get turned on, they’ll start figuring out they’re gay a lot sooner - ergo, Blasphemy!”

That’s all I’m getting out of it.  Boy sees nuddie mag, boy “turns inward” (zomg!  self-discovery = bad!), boy evaluates personal feelings, boy stops trying to cling to stereotypical role thrust on him by crazied religious institutions.

Comment #16: Zifnab  on  09/21  at  12:12 PM

Don’t cry, junk! I just meant that semen is like jalepeno juice. You don’t want it in your eyes. But if someone shoots right on them, you have no choice.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/21  at  12:17 PM

I think we can all agree that anyone who thinks we’re all ready to turn gay at the drop of a hat is almost certainly gay themselves.  They’re generalising from their experience of repressing their own homosexuality to everyone.  Does anyone (other than them) really dispute this?  Not lusting after men is easier than pissing in the shower, and not half as fun.  I would assume that’s the general straight male experience, though maybe I’m inappropriately generalising from my own experience?

Comment #18: Brian  on  09/21  at  12:18 PM

Touching penises is gay.  Therefore, all male masturbation is gay.

Therefore porn causes gayitude.

See how that works?

Comment #19: Siobhan  on  09/21  at  12:19 PM

But it is my observation that boys at that age have less tolerance for homosexuality than just about any other class of people. They speak badly about homosexuality. And that’s because they don’t want to be that way. They don’t want to fall into it. And that’s a good instinct.

Young boys also have the instinct that it would be a good idea to eat Twinkies three meals a day, play video games for 27 hours straight and jump off the roof onto a trampoline. And those aren’t generally considered good instincts. But when a young boy’s instincts coincide with their prejudices, suddenly they’re geniuses. Funny how that works.

He said, “all pornography is homosexual pornography because all pornography turns your sexual drive inwards. Now think about that. And if you, if you tell an 11-year-old boy about that, do you think he’s going to want to go out and get a copy of Playboy? I’m pretty sure he’ll lose interest. That’s the last thing he wants.” You know, that’s a, that’s a good comment. It’s a good point and it’s a good thing to teach young people.

I have read that quote at least six times over the past 12 hours and I seriously haven’t got the first fucking clue what he’s talking about.

Comment #20: RickMassimo  on  09/21  at  12:19 PM

But it is my observation that boys at that age have less tolerance for homosexuality than just about any other class of people.

Only a Republican could applaud the emotional mindset of an insecure 12-year-old boy.

Anyway, boys are good homobigots until….they see naked women.

And only a Republican would want to deny the boy any avenue whatsoever to explore his sexuality and become less insecure.

I’ll leave it as an excercise to the group to speculate on why a Republican might find a nation of insecure, sexually frustrated men a good thing.

Comment #21: Gracchus.  on  09/21  at  12:20 PM

I don’t really think they’re all gay. I think many of them are just terrible at being human and living in a world full of humans. Some of them have to be, just because it’s so obvious, but I don’t think you have to be gay to turn the full force of your hate and frustration on gays.

the exploitation of the female is now a feature not a bug, and is even celebrated.

Enjoying sex more when your partner doesn’t is one of those things I wish I could understand, like sociopathy, not because I want to be a sociopath, but because it’s so foreign and baffling that I feel powerless to argue against it.

Comment #22: junk science  on  09/21  at  12:24 PM

I have read that quote at least six times over the past 12 hours and I seriously haven’t got the first fucking clue what he’s talking about.

It’s just a new argument for banning porn: watching a fictional depiction of a ultra-macho man topping a living Barbie doll will make you Teh Gay.

In short, he’s a reality-challenged idiot. But he wouldn’t have appeared at that conference if he wasn’t.

Comment #23: Gracchus.  on  09/21  at  12:25 PM

I couldn’t agree more.  I hate porn for exactly these reasons, yet guess what?  I totally like anal sex, but I have a partner who doesn’t watch porn, has never watched porn, and so the act of anal sex is not pornified.  I have the most intense orgasms when anal play is included, and men totally get off on it too, unless they’re too uptight and think it’s homosexual or something, in which case, sucks to be them!

As far as coming on the outside, I go by the “from the neck down” rule.  Facials, for me, could never be anything but degrading.  For me.

Comment #24: JennyLI  on  09/21  at  12:27 PM

You don’t want it in your eyes. But if someone shoots right on them, you have no choice.

Hey, I’m just a simple lesbian. I don’t understand your sexually deviant ways.

Comment #25: junk science  on  09/21  at  12:28 PM

Enjoying sex more when your partner doesn’t is one of those things I wish I could understand, like sociopathy, not because I want to be a sociopath, but because it’s so foreign and baffling that I feel powerless to argue against it.

I think rape culture is an end-run around morality, honestly.  Only a sociopath could rape another person, but by othering women, we make it possible to rape them without feeling morally degenerate.  And if women aren’t people with autonomous desires, you never have to take what they want into account during sex, so you end up with the kind of porn Sharper describes, with guys pistoning away into women who are completely unenthusiastic participants in the sex they’re taking part in.

It’s okay to do that, because those women aren’t people.  Doing that to a person would be monstrous.

Comment #26: Ferox  on  09/21  at  12:31 PM

This post really, really speaks to me as one of those girls who fumbled through sexuality 101, although with a larger than normal emphasis on Happy sexuality - but that was partly because of one extremely progressive friend. I mean really, I do not know what I would have ended up doing if there hadn’t been someone in my life saying “find out what makes you feel good, not just what is ‘supposed’ to be good!” I mean, although I got the (relatively) normal discussion about how being sexual is not abnormal, abstinence may not be realistic although it is the best way to prevent pregnancy, and here are some birth control failure rates and blah blah, the whole idea of “some things you see people do are going to be pleasurable to you, some are not, find out what you like alone and communicate with your partner” was an informal education effort.
And I particularly agree about anal sex. Although anal play is something that I think adds a high enjoyment factor, the display I see from pornography of “little fellatio, a little PIV, then ass-banging” is so immensely off-putting that I do not get the impression it is a pleasing act at all, despite the writhing. Then I feel this is emulated in real-life and yes, it hurts!
And from experience, men in heterosexual relationships experimenting with wives, girlfriends, etc. do not feel that whole “if it doesn’t feel good I should take it anyway” thought process to it. Not to say that all girls do either, but I think that element is amazingly missing when it comes to anal sex and women. For men, saying “Not in my back door!” is okay, or “you need to do this, this and this and then it is pleasurable and okay to do” - for girls and women, it is “it’s sooooo hot, if you don’t feel it is hot it’s is because you’re a prude.” Or, teehee, you’re ‘doing your duty’ (at mentioned here before http://www.thefrisky.com/post/246-7-excuses-to-get-out-of-anal-sex/246-celebrities-spouses-met-on-set/) and it doesn’t matter if you like it or not.

I mean, I’ve had experiences that I did cry after because even though there were not purposefully done to make me feel awful, they were “cool things on the internet/TV/whatever” that nevertheless were not things I was into, they didn’t make me feel comfortable or sexy, or whatever, and nobody asked before if it was something I wanted to do! Or checked on me during. Or whatever.

And there is, too, I think a clear line between fantasy and reality - certain things are cool to think about in fantasy without realistic expectations in the way, and that is okay. But being able to maintain an enjoyable sex life that is also realistic is important too. Only living in fantasies is a good way to grow poor sexual relationships.

I’m not saying that we can prevent every not-great sexual experience, I mean some experiences aren’t going to be fantastic and awesome. But I think that if we at least broached the subject with girls (and I mean girls, I knew girls losing their virginity at 12-years-old) that feeling sexual is okay, that your pleasure is just as important as your partners, that it is completely okay to not want to do certain things, etc.

Comment #27: Tenya  on  09/21  at  12:31 PM

I think we can all agree that anyone who thinks we’re all ready to turn gay at the drop of a hat is almost certainly gay themselves.

With some of the anti-gay rhetoric it is indeed projection at work. Manyjust hate the idea of someone else enjoying what they can’t: good, passionate, mutually pleasurable sex—same-sex is almost beside the point. Many of them hate the idea so much that they can’t even tolerate the crude but powerful simulacrum of sex that is porn.

Comment #28: Gracchus.  on  09/21  at  12:34 PM

I don’t really think they’re all gay. I think many of them are just terrible at being human and living in a world full of humans. Some of them have to be, just because it’s so obvious, but I don’t think you have to be gay to turn the full force of your hate and frustration on gays.

No, I don’t think everyone who hates gay people is gay.  There are certainly other reasons, starting at “Well, I’ve been told to/it’s been modelled for me”, and extending out to things like “Men aren’t taught how to deal with anyone approaching them non-platonically, so they end up thinking the only way they can avoid gay sex is to drive away/kill any man who’s gay.  (I don’t think it’s quite articulated this way, but it’s a big part of it.)

But anyone who things that exposure to gayness (or worse, exposure to straight sex) will make you gay is almost certainly gay.  The “Young boys’ll turn gay if we don’t keep them away from photos of naked ladies!” crowd?  I can’t imagine anything other than they find photos of naked ladies repulsive, or at least uninteresting, and can only maintain a facade of heterosexuality by never allowing themselves to be confronted by it.  Infrequent heterosexual sex in the dark comes to mind.

Comment #29: Brian  on  09/21  at  12:35 PM

“Because seriously, if porn did push a few more dudes into homosexuality, who gives a shit?

Amen.

Comment #30: Mark  on  09/21  at  12:42 PM

“all pornography is homosexual pornography because all pornography turns your sexual drive inwards. Now think about that. And if you, if you tell an 11-year-old boy about that, do you think he’s going to want to go out and get a copy of Playboy? I’m pretty sure he’ll lose interest. That’s the last thing he wants.”

You can tell an 11-year old boy just about anything, and the odds they’ll believe are pretty good.

But if you show a 12/13-year-old boy the pictures, 9-times-out-of-10 they’ll come around… 
...so to speak…

And homosexuality will be the last thing on their minds…

Comment #31: MikeEss  on  09/21  at  12:51 PM

It’s just a new argument for banning porn: watching a fictional depiction of a ultra-macho man topping a living Barbie doll will make you Teh Gay.

So basically Column A is Things We Think Are Bad and Column B is End Results We Think Are Bad and they just glue them together Mad Lib-style?

Next year’s panel: Gun Laws Make You Get An Abortion!

Comment #32: RickMassimo  on  09/21  at  12:53 PM

No, I don’t think everyone who hates gay people is gay.

Yeah, but the kind of people who speak of gayness as an onslaught that needs to be fought by all men, lest the gayness conquer them HAVE to be gay.

I realize this is well worn and probably seen by everyone now, but:

Why Do All These Homosexuals Keep Sucking My Cock?

Comment #33: Seebach  on  09/21  at  12:58 PM

(If only I knew the secret number of times to repeat to avoid being misread!

X+3, where X=the number of times you DID repeat
:/

Comment #34: firefall  on  09/21  at  01:02 PM

Of course we need to teach women to be aware of their own sexuality but every single time someone even mentions the word masturbation they lose their job (Dr. Elders) or they completely incense the viewers of talk show priestess Oprah (Dr. Laura Berman). But seriously, how else are they going to learn? If they think only boys can make them feel good, then we end up with situations like the ones Amanda outlines.

I may be naive on this issue, but is there feminist porn available? Is that an oxymoron?

Comment #35: DC Fem  on  09/21  at  01:17 PM

“So basically Column A is Things We Think Are Bad and Column B is End Results We Think Are Bad and they just glue them together Mad Lib-style?”

Yet another thing goes on the list for the eventuality in which I run for public office solely as a performance art project.

Comment #36: preying mantis  on  09/21  at  01:18 PM

“I may be naive on this issue, but is there feminist porn available?”

There’s every type of porn under the sun available.  It’s just that you have to spend a while looking for it instead of punching “porn” into Google.  So if you’re an embarrassed teenager, or your parents are controlling/sex-negative/have misogynist views on the issue, or you don’t even know how to formulate these questions because of the environment you grew up in, you might as well be after hen’s teeth.

Comment #37: preying mantis  on  09/21  at  01:22 PM

I can’t imagine anything other than they find photos of naked ladies repulsive, or at least uninteresting

I’m thinking it could be going like this:
1. Seeing naked ladies makes you want to touch yourself.
2. Touching yourself is gay, because you’re touching parts just like your own. (That they actually are your own makes it the ultimate gay, because gays are narcissists and really want to fuck themselves (“turn [their] sexual drive inwards”).

It’s not that naked ladies aren’t hot, it’s that they’re so hot it makes you feel sexy, and if the only thing around to touch is your own penis, you’re vulnerable to the dangerous gay-waves it radiates. Actually enjoying being touched is the first step to god-defying happiness, and who knows what it could lead to.

Also, to the kind of wingnut who’s only had the most boring kind of straight sex, gay sex might seem tempting because it’s an unknown, and anything has to be better than the kind of sex they’re having. The women they spend time with are the kind who are boring and stupid enough to want their company, and they aren’t really human anyway. Sex with an actual equal human partner might sound more appealing than just sex with a woman. I think if most of them actually tried gay sex, they’d find it didn’t do much for them either.

Comment #38: junk science  on  09/21  at  01:23 PM

John @15: I think it has a lot more to do with the psychological concept of cognitive dissonance, especially since I’ve seen those sorts of flare-ups happen around all sorts of areas where male privilege over women’s lives tends to continue unabated.  You’d get the same flamewar around changing your name when married, quitting your job when you have kids, doing all the housework, etc.  Psychologists note that cognitive dissonance is very painful to the person experiencing it.  As I’ve been in the role of someone who is incredibly defensive about an inequality in my hetero relationships, I know exactly how it feels, and why the urge to get angry is so strong.  It’s hard to reconcile the belief that your lover cares about you and supports your feminism with evidence that he is willing to use his male privilege against you.  I remember distinctly getting really defensive once about doing a lot more housework than my boyfriend at the time.  After those kind of threads blow up, people always say it was because it was “personal” or someone was engaging in “mind-reading”.  But I think it’s cognitive dissonance, which has been well-researched and documented, if you’re interested in learning more. 

When it comes to feminism, second wave British feminists came up with a shorthand for this specific kind of cognitive dissonance: Not My Nigel. It’s not an internet-specific kind of struggle in feminism, or rare in any way. 

I’m not trying to make light in any way.  We’ve all experience cognitive dissonance, and it’s a powerful, painful emotion that can be very distorting.  For instance, when you’re deep in Not My Nigel territory, it’s hard not to feel that you’re being judged when you probably aren’t being judged.  Often, the observation that offended and caused cognitive dissonance was made by a woman who—-being human—-probably has struggled and continues to struggle with this issue herself.  Which is why she felt free to speak up about it.

My strategy for dealing with Not My Nigel when it rises up in me is to remember that just because a man has and uses male privilege doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy or impervious to sitting down and working it out.  That a dude is entranced by sexist tropes doesn’t mean he’s a bad person, or anti-feminist, even.  But I’ve been fortunate enough to a) have gone through this enough that I’ve really thought it through and b) had men in my life who are feminist-minded enough to be honest and upfront about how they have very dark thoughts, so I know that dark thoughts can reside in good men.  It makes a lot of sense, actually.  Our culture goes out of its way to tie misogyny to a lot of rewards for men so that the two become indistinguishable—-the way that porn uses repetition to drive home the idea that putting women down is sexy, for instance—-and you’d have to be superhuman not to absorb some of those ideas.  It’s hard to resolve having dark thoughts with the belief that you’re a good person, but I think it’s probably healthier to strive to get to the point where you allow both realities to co-exist without popping blood vessels trying to resolve the issue.

I reiterate: I understand Not My Nigel because, like a lot of smart people, I’m very good at rationalizing and have many times gotten extremely defensive, came up with elaborate rationalizations, and then in my quieter moments thought, “Damn, I overreacted. She had a point. That my boyfriend only does 1/3 of the housework is because of sexism, but that doesn’t mean that he’s like some mustache-twirling super-villain, or that he doesn’t love me.”

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/21  at  01:28 PM

I guess to keep the boys’ sexuality turned outwards, Michael Schwartz is advocating early sexual experimentation of the “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours” variety.

GOPsters for playing doctor.

Comment #40: Hector B.  on  09/21  at  01:28 PM

Also, junk, as much as I wish I didn’t understand why it would be appealing to have sex with someone who isn’t into it, I get it.  It’s got to be intoxicating knowing that someone needs your approval that badly.  Or, it has to be if you’re trained by society to believe you’re entitled to that kind of desperate approval-seeking. 

But the thing is that when someone is desperate for your approval, it really makes it hard to respect them.  That’s why there’s a Tucker Max feedback loop, where guys are like, “Dance for us, ladies!” and the women dance, and the men think, gross that’s pathetic.  And that justifies not regarding these women as someone to respect, and so the men start to find ways to push the envelope to see how far they can take it before someone says enough.

Comment #41: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/21  at  01:32 PM

The playboy will make you gay idea sounds like something that would have been on the old Beavis and Butthead show…screamned out by the teacher who was an ex-marine.

and then later in the show Beavis and Butthead get their hands on a Playboy and
“whoa”
“Yeah whoa”
“So are we gay now?”

Comment #42: professorfate  on  09/21  at  01:34 PM

I’m thinking it could be going like this:
1. Seeing naked ladies makes you want to touch yourself.
2. Touching yourself is gay, because you’re touching parts just like your own. (That they actually are your own makes it the ultimate gay, because gays are narcissists and really want to fuck themselves (“turn [their] sexual drive inwards”).

It’s not that naked ladies aren’t hot, it’s that they’re so hot it makes you feel sexy, and if the only thing around to touch is your own penis, you’re vulnerable to the dangerous gay-waves it radiates. Actually enjoying being touched is the first step to god-defying happiness, and who knows what it could lead to.

That’s totally true! And then when a woman (or girl) touches you, well, it isn’t really all that different from a man touching you! So that’ll turn you gay too!

The only permissible sex is to be harnessed up and hung from the ceiling parallel to the floor and lowered onto your wife (of course, wife only) so that your penis goes into her vagina and nothing else touches anything else! Otherwise you’re gonna risk catching Teh Ghey!

It all makes sense now.

Jeebus, what a bunch of morons.

Comment #43: RickMassimo  on  09/21  at  01:36 PM

Not lusting after men is easier than pissing in the shower, and not half as fun.  I would assume that’s the general straight male experience, though maybe I’m inappropriately generalising from my own experience?

I remember a story from a few years back where someone was recounting talking to a fundie who was all about the “gayness is an infective meme” idea when he was confronted by someone who disagreed, that the idea that you could be seduced into gayness while being inherently straight was stupid.  The fundie started saying “That’s not true, because when I was at camp when I was a teenager I…” and then realized what he was about to say.

Comment #44: KeithM  on  09/21  at  01:38 PM

from #41

That’s why there’s a Tucker Max feedback loop, where guys are like, “Dance for us, ladies!” and the women dance, and the men think, gross that’s pathetic.  And that justifies not regarding these women as someone to respect, and so the men start to find ways to push the envelope to see how far they can take it before someone says enough.

Yeah, it’s like some kind of chain reaction of fucked-up behavior. Or like an economic depression where economic factors create a feedback loop that brings the economy lower and lower, only in this case it’s bringing the ‘value’ of women down and down until it hits a terminating condition (i.e. it gets too disgusting for “the majority” to accept).

Comment #45: atheist  on  09/21  at  01:48 PM

Just one note here; some girls ARE born loving that princess shit. My daughter is 5 and we were big on not throwing pink stuff on her; her baby room was a bright and cheerful yellow with John Lennon-drawn animals, the baby clothes we bought her were big on greens and blues.. I tried to get her to watch boxing, old Shaw Brothers Kung Fu movies and such pretty much from birth on.

And she, from birth on, wants none of it. She’s very happily into shoes and handbags and princesses.

I’ve managed to instill/install an abiding love of Wonder Woman in her,  to show that girls can also be powerful and awesome, but the gateway to that was selling her on the fact that Wonder Woman is an Amazon PRINCESS. But even her play with the many Wonder Woman toys veers away from beating up bad guys and into “Wonder Woman and her mother Queen Hippolyta have pleasant conversations and ride horses together.”

Comment #46: jdobbin  on  09/21  at  01:52 PM

Fuck, I forgot to close the last set of parentheses. That’s going to bother me all day.

the idea that you could be seduced into gayness while being inherently straight was stupid.

I’ve had straight female friends who don’t “believe” in being gay, and who think gay people have just had their hearts broken by members of the opposite sex. Some of them will eventually have sex with a girl and realize it’s not what they want, but it’s the experience that changes their minds more than anything else. I think there are a lot of genuinely straight people who just don’t know their own sexuality well enough to realize what being gay means, and have seriously distorted ideas about it.

Comment #47: junk science  on  09/21  at  01:58 PM

I’m not trying to make light in any way.  We’ve all experience cognitive dissonance, and it’s a powerful, painful emotion that can be very distorting.  For instance, when you’re deep in Not My Nigel territory, it’s hard not to feel that you’re being judged when you probably aren’t being judged.  Often, the observation that offended and caused cognitive dissonance was made by a woman who—-being human—-probably has struggled and continues to struggle with this issue herself.  Which is why she felt free to speak up about it.

Excellent answer.

Comment #48: atheist  on  09/21  at  02:04 PM

It’s the exact same thing with racism, you just don’t hear the “kids are naturally racist” argument as much anymore thanks to advancing anti-racism in our culture.  But I distinctly remember, when I was 12, hearing a racist joke at lunch in school (in Arkansas, for what it’s worth), laughing because everyone else thought it was funny and by all that’s holy I wanted to fit in, and coming home to repeat it to my mom.  She sternly set me straight, and there are lots of other examples of being raised to be feminist, anti-racist and all-around tolerant that had nothing to do with counteracting natural urges, and everything to do with correcting the dominant cultural teachings I was getting outside the home.
Comment #10: Ferox on 09/21 at 10:54 AM

And I don’t think we can overlook the influence of forced integration (busing) (for all it was circumvented a lot) that made telling such a joke not about the nameless, faceless kids in “the other school, but about Joe or TaShawn your friend from homeroom.

Comment #49: phylosopher  on  09/21  at  02:08 PM

“some girls ARE born loving that princess shit.”

And we know this because this one particular girl has no friends at whose houses she spends time, never watches t.v. and doesn’t go to school and therefore is never subjected to brainwashing advertisements about princess crap.

wink

Comment #50: Gypsy Lee  on  09/21  at  02:11 PM

integration ... made telling such a joke not about the nameless, faceless kids in “the other school, but about Joe or TaShawn your friend from homeroom

Turning “one of them” into “one of us” is also the prime benefit of Affirmative Action, even though it may disregard the “merit” accrued by being able to bubble in a standardized test faster and more accurately than your peers.

Comment #51: Hector B.  on  09/21  at  02:17 PM

Amanda:

I hesitate to open this can of worms, because when I pointed out that the facial exists in porn as a symbolic marker of female degradation, many, many, many people deliberately misread me, claiming that I said that coming on the outside was wrong, or that if any touched your face, it was wrong, or that you’re a bad person if you like being degraded in bed.  All I said was that it’s funny to me that something that is overtly about employing the “this slut deserves to be humiliated” trope in porn gets to send its message to an audience that wants to hear negative things about sexual women, and the rest of us will pretend that they just didn’t say that.

Um, “deliberately” misread you?  I think we are going to retreat into our deliberation chambers, to deliberately deliberate over how we’re going to misread you.  Then, with a painful look of cognitive dissonance on our faces, we will deliver the accusation: you’re telling us to do terrible, terrible things to kittens.  (No, no double entendre was intended.)

I really don’t feel like having this argument all over again, so I’ll just let it rest, but I’ll say this one thing: basically, simply because there are so many ways people could dishonestly disagree with you there, you’re refusing to believe that anybody could honestly disagree.  This is just like the classic case of the psychoanalyst who answers criticism of psychoanalysis by saying that the critic is repressing.

Comment #52: sacundim  on  09/21  at  02:18 PM

Feminist porn?  I’ve heard good things about Tristan Taormino, who makes a point to have interviews with the actors before and after to establish consent.

<blockquoe>some girls ARE born loving that princess shit</blockquote>

A 5-year-old has been subjected to years of propaganda, no matter how much the parents try to intercede.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/21  at  02:19 PM

So basically Column A is Things We Think Are Bad and Column B is End Results We Think Are Bad and they just glue them together Mad Lib-style?

Pretty much. It doesn’t matter how tenuous or at odds columns A and B are, they’ll make a link. This fool couldn’t even bring himself to make the fractionally plausible argument (at least to a nutbar) that watching hardcore porn will expose young boys to graphic images of penises, transforming them into Teh Gay—instead he chooses Playboy!

junk science, I think, comes closest to the “logic” at work here with the discussion of gays as narcissists. It fits in with their whole anti-masturbation campaign, which again might have been a more plausible hook for your run-of-the-mill wingnut. It’s like he’s not even trying.

And you joke about next year’s panel, but…

Gun Laws Make You Get An Abortion!

Gun laws, you see, are the tyranny of the sissified, Frenchified, one-world state made manifest—a fascist tyranny that also includes in its sinister agenda eugenics, which (as any hard-working, white American knows) requires nubile suburban white girls to get abortions, so as to save taxpayer money for inner-city welfare queens.

Now I made that up, but I’m sure I could post it up in Freeperland with a couple of edits to tone down the sarcasm (or maybe even without) and get a whole bunch of earnest “amens” in response.

Comment #54: Gracchus.  on  09/21  at  02:19 PM

And we know this because this one particular girl has no friends at whose houses she spends time, never watches t.v. and doesn’t go to school and therefore is never subjected to brainwashing advertisements about princess crap.

This was true of our niece between two and three, who stayed at home with her mother, who did not let her watch commercial TV. Her playmate next door was the daughter of Indian immigrants who did not think much of commercial TV or US culture.

Despite this, she wanted dresses, not pants, and she wanted PINK.

Comment #55: Hector B.  on  09/21  at  02:22 PM

And we know this because this one particular girl has no friends at whose houses she spends time, never watches t.v. and doesn’t go to school and therefore is never subjected to brainwashing advertisements about princess crap.

Hey, Gypsy. I take it you don’t have kids.

I’m not saying that ALL girls have a bent to liking so-called “girly” things, but I do feel your dogmatic stance, assuming that enjoying that aesthetic MUST be a forced-slave position simply because YOU don’t like it is just as odious and shitty as trying to force some little girl who ISN’T into dresses and shoes to be into them.

Look, I spent some time trying hard to push for “hey, you can like THESE things, too,” until I realized, that’s MY hang-up and not hers.

Also, she was speaking in full sentences before her 1st birthday, and spent the majority of her time from 1 to 3 with my dad, where she went on nature-walks and learned how to collect bugs and snakes. We really only watched Sesame Street and Word Word World, and the non-commercial-having daytime block of Disney with the Mickey Mouse Clubhouse and JoJo’s Circus.  I tell you honestly, she self-selected all this play-make-up and wanting to play with her grandma’s shoes.

Frankly, I find the way you referred to my amazing little girl as being horrifically offensive.

Comment #56: jdobbin  on  09/21  at  02:24 PM

“The only permissible sex is to be harnessed up and hung from the ceiling parallel to the floor…”

...you know, that doesn’t start out sounding like it’s heading into territory that right-wing “family values” GOP types would even be willing to admit they knew existed. At least, not in public.

Comment #57: Aaron  on  09/21  at  02:27 PM

Um…jdobbin?  You notice how much of this thread has been about how otherwise-neutral (or even positive!) things can be twisted into something oppressive by a patriarchal culture-at-large, how people can be brainwashed into that twisted view without even knowing it, how it can be difficult to discuss these things because cognitive dissonance can be painful (with the specific example of “Not My Nigel”)?

Here’s a hint: porn is one of the most vivid examples, but it’s not the only one. 

No one is attacking you, your daughter, or what she does for fun.  Let down the shields.

Comment #58: Seraph  on  09/21  at  02:33 PM

So what happens to little girls raised on parents playing lots of World of Warcraft, I wonder?  I mean, the social zeitgiest has come a long way from the 50s, or even the 80s.  Does this mean we’re going to have any army of little girls wanting to be level 80 Night Elf Rogues with tier 6 gear?

Comment #59: Zifnab  on  09/21  at  02:37 PM

Does this mean we’re going to have any army of little girls wanting to be level 80 Night Elf Rogues with tier 6 gear?

That would be so.  Fucking.  Awesome.

Comment #60: Seraph  on  09/21  at  02:40 PM

Amanda - #41.

I do agree with your response. Yes, YOU can’t make somebody feel guilty about something they don’t already feel guilty about. Perhaps people digging in (myself heartily included) are really arguing with themselves when they push back.

I have experienced, here, what you describe, where I have posted 8 times explaining my original post, only to have another: “JohnGor0, so you’re saying…” pop up with an example that has nothing to do with my original argument.

People engage in the arguments they want to have.

Comment #61: I Heart Puppies  on  09/21  at  02:40 PM

Unless there’s some reason it wouldn’t be…I’m more into tabletop games than WoW…I was just exulting in the naked, unashamed nerdity of it all.

Comment #62: Seraph  on  09/21  at  02:43 PM

#62 was a response to myself at #60

Comment #63: Seraph  on  09/21  at  02:44 PM

Amanda:

I’m not being hostile here, but you’re speaking from a theoretical position and not one of experience.

As parents, we really went out of our way to NOT inculcate her in the stereotypical “girl-stuff.” At a certain point, however, we realized it was really OUR issue and not hers. If she actually likes pink stuff, and wants her room pink, and wants to wear dresses when I try to get her to wear pants, in the same way that one should, if their son (like I was, as a kid) is NOT into cars, trucks, baseball and football, you shouldn’t force it upon him, so too should you not try to force what you perceive to be a more liberated sense of aesthetic… at least, not in so abstract a form. To YOU (and me, too) Sleeping Beauty is a story about a girl who can’t do anything for herself and needs to be saved by men and magic, but to a 2 year old, it is a singing girl and her animal friends.

She’s 5 now, and as I said,  her favorite thing now is Wonder Woman and I’ve used that to segue into classical Greek mythology, and she’s a big fan of Artemis and Demeter. But she likes dress-up and gowns and such, too.

Not everyone is, but some people are. Why is that it MUST be ” brainwashing” simply because it is an aesthetic you don’t enjoy?

I don’t enjoy it particularly too much either, by the way—but my daughter does. She’s old enough and certainly smart enough to express preferences. At that age,  I remember I loved nothing more than Silver Surfer, Richie Rich and Sugar Ray Leonard. I had an uncle who was ALWAYS trying to make me like trains and trucks and baseball, and considered comic books to be something to be discouraged, and he hated boxing, and thought a “real boy” should like baseball.

I thought he was an asshole and still do.

You can be an asshole in a variety of directions, when you decide that pushing your particular take on what to like or not like is in someone’s best interest.

Let me say here, this was just a side point. I agree that getting a 12 year old to parrot back the bigotry you’ve taught him is not proof of innate, instinctual aversion.

I’m sorry if someone tried to force you to like dresses and castles and dragons.  I can see that you probably feel about them much as I do about baseball. But I wouldn’t say that no boy REALLY likes baseball. Some do. Just as there’s nothing wrong with a boy who does not, so too is there nothing wrong with one who does.

Comment #64: jdobbin  on  09/21  at  02:45 PM

I think the current discussion over whether or not girls are programmed to like pretty pink princesses is beside the point; it’s not that no girls are, but that not all girls are, in spite of what the right and the media would have us think, and also that some boys are.

Comment #65: Rebecca  on  09/21  at  02:45 PM

jdobbin, I have an “amazing little girl” myself, who we packed off to college yesterday.  And she had her moments of princess and pink too.  But I’m confident she picked up those ideas from the culture she was raised in, the culture we all live in, which is saturated through and through with patriarchal ideas of what little girls and little boys are supposed to be like.

No one is raised in an environment completely free of prescribed social norms, especially gender norms.  Short of locking up the child in a blank white room form the beginning and cutting off all media access and contact with other people, it’s hard to see how something like that would even be possible.

Children are little sponges.  They will pick up anything and everything, whether you want them to or not.  If you’re lucky, they’ll overcome these messages and become something more than stereotypical examples of some gender ideal, at least eventually…

Comment #66: MikeEss  on  09/21  at  02:46 PM

So what happens to little girls raised on parents playing lots of World of Warcraft, I wonder?  I mean, the social zeitgiest has come a long way from the 50s, or even the 80s.  Does this mean we’re going to have any army of little girls wanting to be level 80 Night Elf Rogues with tier 6 gear?

Somewhat (okay, pretty darn far) off-topic, but this comment reminded me of one of my favorite threads from the City of Heroes discussion boards: “What my Six-Year-Old has learned from City of Heroes”.

Comment #67: Scott  on  09/21  at  03:04 PM

I always suspected My Little Pony was of the Devil…

http://undead-art.deviantart.com/art/My-Little-EVIL-Pony-41721646

Is it possible that all “the Princess shit” is out there to try to sell more Princess shit rather than merely to subvert and indoctrinate little girls?  In other words, it’s a symptom and not a cause?

Because I don’t think there’s anything inherently shitty about wanting to be a Princess.  Princesses can be powerful.  They can even be Warrior Princesses.

Comment #68: liberalrob  on  09/21  at  03:07 PM

Amanda, be careful.  You’re going to get branded as a second-wave anti-sex feminist—after all, you’re getting old enough for someone to claim you’re just jealous.

There’s a fine line between, for example, looking critically at women making a practice of wearing ridiculous revealing clothing because it’s expected of them, and slut-shaming.  Glad to see you’re navigating this accurately, though what others take from what you read is, as you know, partly out of your control.

I love the argument that boys are just “naturally” attracted to guns and cars and construction equipment.  What about all the boys born before there *were* guns and cars and construction equipment? 

JohnGor0:

I’m with junk science, here. My opinion is that every extreme right-wing guy who complains about homosexuality is really just fighting the urge to tackle and ravage the men anywhere near him.

In response to Amanda, when you label an act as degrading, a very connotative word, you will get pushback. You were much more careful with judging sex acts in this post, and I agree with pretty much all of it. Your last post had the attitude of somebody who always feels the liberty to blurt out what they “know” are somebody’s motivations in public.

That’s funny, you feel the liberty to blurt out what you “know” about every extreme right-wing guy who complains about homosexuality.  Self-contradictory much?

I’ve read that studies show that high sexual excitement can come from viewing or participating in moderately transgressive acts even if you don’t want to participate.  There’s anxiety added to sexuality.  So gay sex is generally kind of interesting to straight people in this way, *especially* if it’s something they think is wrong and therefore never get to see. 

It’s the “OMG we’re doing something wrong, it’s so delicious” theory, which, taken to its extreme, supports all kinds of prudery because if we actually talk about sex it will “lose its mystery.”  There is something to the mystery thing, it’s just not the only thing in sex, and ignorance isn’t the same thing as mystery.

Comment #69: oldfeminist  on  09/21  at  03:07 PM

I think the problem with the princess crap is not that little girls love the princess crap but that little girls are encouraged to feel “pretty” and to enjoy dressing for aesthetics… and little boys aren’t.

And if you do not dress your child in homemade, completely plain and gender-neutral clothing, he or she has been exposed to this since birth, no matter how hard you model other patterns for them.

The Maasai, in Africa, believe in the prettiness of men. Warrior men wear makeup and jewelry that’s intended to make them look fierce and also beautiful, and young women are understood to judge men on how pretty they are. I will bet you anything that little Maasai boys are *totally* into dress-up. (Now, of course, the Maasai male standard of beauty is still ‘fierce’, whereas the Western female standard of beauty is ‘ornamental’ for the most part; Maasai warrior men don’t dress in shoes they can’t run in and flouncy clothes that impede their movement. But it’s still a society where men are expected to wear makeup and jewelry to look attractive for women. It’s also a society that practices bride price—men pay the families of their brides for the right to marry them, because women are understood to be economic producers who are very valuable and you have to compensate a family for taking their daughter away to produce for *you.* Still pretty sexist, but much better on the face of it than the Western/Indian concept of dowry, where families pay to get rid of their daughters because women are understood to be an economic burden.)

Lots of little girls like to be a pretty princess because their entire life has reinforced that being pretty is a good thing to be… even if they’ve been kept away from the marketing, random strangers at the grocery store will still call a little girl pretty as a compliment. I think the only way to counter it is to *also* compliment your daughters for how strong they are, how brave they are, or how smart they are, while making sure to compliment your sons for their looks as well as everything else. The girls might still go through a pretty princess phase, but they’ll want to be strong, brave, smart princesses.

And don’t let your mom buy your daughter tons of princess crap. I should have put my foot down about the Disney princess crap ages ago.

Comment #70: Alara J Rogers  on  09/21  at  03:12 PM

I mean what’s the more likely explanation? That it’s in the genes of modern little girls to like fantasies of being a princess, i.e. a high ranking noble in a feudal society that didn’t exist for most of human evolution, and also happens to genetically being predisposed to liking pink even though pink was considered a *manly* color a century or two ago? Or that kids learned all this through cultural osmosis of the *current* culture?

Comment #71: BlackBloc  on  09/21  at  03:21 PM

Sorry, unclear sentence, should have read:

“I’ve read that studies show that high sexual excitement can come participating in moderately transgressive acts, or viewing them even if you don’t want to participate.”

Comment #72: oldfeminist  on  09/21  at  03:22 PM

Thanks, Amanda!

“(If only I knew the secret number of times to repeat to avoid being misread!) “

Girlfriend, if you figure this out, let me know. 

I have never once EVER said that all porn is bad, or that feminists can’t/shouldn’t enjoy it (or enjoy facials or anal or whatever).  But the knee-jerk response from many readers is just “OMG, YOU JUDGEY BITCH! I’M CHOOSING MY CHOICE, SO FUCK OFF!” I think in a society where women are constantly fed so many slut-shaming, sex-negative messages, any attempt at critical or thoughtful response about sex or porn can feel like judgment.

And I wholeheartedly second your assertion that feminists express concerns about these things because they’ve been there. I’m 34 and I made mistakes, misjudged men and situations, felt pressured, gave in to pressure, resisted pressure, etc. Hopefully, the benefit of experience is perspective, and an ability to call out misogynist or anti-sex messages that are being peddled (and absorbed) by younger women.

Comment #73: BeckySharper  on  09/21  at  03:28 PM

Rebecca:

I think the current discussion over whether or not girls are programmed to like pretty pink princesses is beside the point; it’s not that no girls are, but that not all girls are, in spite of what the right and the media would have us think, and also that some boys are.

The point is, in fact, that kids don’t come pre-programmed to like or dislike specific cultural ideas. Genetics doesn’t work that way.

The plural of “anecdote” is not “data.”

Comment #74: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  09/21  at  03:30 PM

Oldfeminist - @69

That’s funny, you feel the liberty to blurt out what you “know” about every extreme right-wing guy who complains about homosexuality.  Self-contradictory much?

Uh, actually, not at all, oldfeminist. Thank you for making my point in #61. Usually, starting a sentence with “My opinion is…” is a dead giveaway that I’m not stating that I know something to be a proven fact.

And this is to Amanda’s point about cognitive dissonence. MY OPINION is that you are seeing Amanda attacked, and reading things that aren’t in my post.

Comment #75: I Heart Puppies  on  09/21  at  03:31 PM

The gender issues with the princess meme are just the cherry on top of the sundae of wrongness. We live in a fucking Republic and/or Democracy, you’d think somebody would get tired of the aristocratic principle, goddamit. What is so admirable about a member of a social class that was nothing more than a useless parasite on the labor of the majority of people? I mean at least with the ‘captains of industry’ and CEOs, these people are still in charge so you’d expect some people to still admire them in spite of their being useless parasites. The princes and princesses and kings and nobles were pretty much gotten rid of, some at the end of guillotine blades. You’d think by now the allure of their useless lives would have ended.

Comment #76: BlackBloc  on  09/21  at  03:32 PM

I love the argument that boys are just “naturally” attracted to guns and cars and construction equipment.  What about all the boys born before there *were* guns and cars and construction equipment?

Presumably they were just obsessed with their actual phalluses before phallic symbols eased that burden for them.

I think the princess thing provokes the same sort of response the degrading sexual acts thing does.  People read “it’s pretty bad that our culture makes girls feel their only option is to like princess stuff,” and understand it to mean “it’s bad if a girl likes princess stuff.”  I do hope that grown-ups who liked princess stuff question why they did, and what cultural forces were behind it, though.  Just like I hope that women who like getting facials (and guys who like giving them, for that matter) ask themselves why that is, even if they figure out why and keep on doing it.

There’s nothing necessarily wrong with enjoying artifacts of a sexist society.  There is something wrong with doing so uncritically.

Comment #77: Ferox  on  09/21  at  03:42 PM

Co-sign with Ferox at #77.  Well said.

Comment #78: Seraph  on  09/21  at  03:44 PM

I can’t say this enough: HISTORICALLY, before the year 1900 (roughly), PINK was considered the MALE color and BLUE was considered the FEMALE color. In all novels referring to getting the baby clothes ready for the new arrival, GIRL baby clothes were BLUE and BOY baby clothes were PINK.

I have no idea how the reversal took place, but it did. THis junk is all cultural people.

Not to mention, in the middle ages it was ILLEGAL for the common people to wear any color but BROWN!

Comment #79: KMTBERRY  on  09/21  at  03:46 PM

We live in a fucking Republic and/or Democracy, you’d think somebody would get tired of the aristocratic principle, goddamit.

My favorite example is The Lion King.  It’s a whole movie about the divine right of kings and the restoration of the rightful patrilineal succession.  And yet we (I’m deliberately including myself) cry at it.  This shit goes deep, deep down.

Comment #80: FlipYrWhig  on  09/21  at  03:51 PM

You’re going to get branded as a second-wave anti-sex feminist—after all, you’re getting old enough for someone to claim you’re just jealous.

I suppose I’ll hold the ace of my own goofy, perverted thoughts and history and play it if it gets too out of control.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/21  at  03:54 PM

A 5-year-old has been subjected to years of propaganda, no matter how much the parents try to intercede.

It starts before age 5, even in kids who have been abnormally sheltered.  Some kids like pink pink pink.  Heck, my boy loved pink and had dresses - the older one.  The younger one, little yobbo?  None of it.  Other kids they went to preschool with had either media sheltered or media controlled environments and some girls wore pink princess pink pink and others went right for the toolset, while all the boys liked to play kitchen.

All I can say is this: nice theory.  Unless you have spent enough time around small kids, including the meme and media sheltered ones, you don’t have enough data to draw inferences here.

Comment #82: Ms Kate  on  09/21  at  04:02 PM

Oh, and parents can get kids talking back to advertizing at a very early age ... ours didn’t watch any commercial TV before they were 4 or 5 years old (save for my older guy sneaking down after Sunday dinner to watch the “one eyed lady show”).  We watched the ads with them and got them yelling back at the ad pitches in no time.

Comment #83: Ms Kate  on  09/21  at  04:08 PM

My favorite example is The Lion King.  It’s a whole movie about the divine right of kings and the restoration of the rightful patrilineal succession.  And yet we (I’m deliberately including myself) cry at it.

Well to be fair, the one thing worst than a king is a usurper (as opposed to a revolutionary). “I buy into the aristocratic principle yet I’m willing to go against it and commit regicide if it gets me ahead” seems like it’s two levels of fucked up.

Comment #84: BlackBloc  on  09/21  at  04:12 PM

ferox, you just won the thread.

Comment #85: chareth cutestory  on  09/21  at  04:14 PM

@jdobbin - one example, shamelessly stolen from another blog:
A dental hygenist, upon seeing a girl pick a small lizard as toy #1 of her allotted 2 toys per visit, says ‘alright dear, but be sure to pick a girl toy next’.

The point being that it’s nearly impossible to shield a child from the ‘girls like pink’ trope. It’s true that some girls just like pink and dresses, but the analogy that makes sense to me (being math-inclined and all) is to think of it like a linear function. Ideally, the ‘pink-liking’* manifested would be the same as the inherent tendency towards ‘pink-liking’ for that particular girl. But, society performs a transform on the function, skewing the ‘pink-liking’ function in an amount proportionate to the amount of brainwashing said girl is exposed to. Less brain-washing means that the expressed ‘pink-liking’ will vary less from the girl’s inherent tastes, so it’s probably safe to say that your daughter didn’t have an in-born antipathy to pink. But it’s still overly-simplistic (and false) to claim that your daughter received no brain-washing, and therefore her expressed tastes are identical to her innate preferences.

*I’m using liking pink as a stand-in for the myriad gender norms that society imposes. I’m also using ‘innate preferences’ to refer to the preferences a child would develop in the absence of gender norms from society - I’m not taking a position on whether or not there is a ‘pink-liking’ gene.

Comment #86: jalmondale  on  09/21  at  04:17 PM

“I’m not saying that ALL girls have a bent to liking so-called “girly” things, but I do feel your dogmatic stance, assuming that enjoying that aesthetic MUST be a forced-slave position simply because YOU don’t like it is just as odious and shitty as trying to force some little girl who ISN’T into dresses and shoes to be into them.”

“Frankly, I find the way you referred to my amazing little girl as being horrifically offensive. “

LOL.  Wow.  I have no idea what this gibberish is trying to accuse of me, but all i said was basically what Amanda said right after me: “A 5-year-old has been subjected to years of propaganda, no matter how much the parents try to intercede.”

I didn’t make ANY offensive references to your child. No matter how sure daddy is that shes just biologically prone to liking princess crap, the fact is that she’s lived through several years of advertisizing conditioning - unless you kept her in a hermetically sealed bubble or something.

Reading, not testerical knee-jerking, is fundamental. 

Also, making idiotic assumptions about me based on your testerical misreading of what I wrote does not a valid position make.

Comment #87: Gypsy Lee  on  09/21  at  04:17 PM

Hahaha, I see that parents on the thread getting defensive of their daughters’ princessy proclivities are pulling out the old “you’re not a parent so you can’t POSSIBLY understand!” card. That may rightfully apply to some situations, but not this one. You don’t have to be a parent to understand just how hard it is to raise a child completely insulated from all social prejudices. In fact it’s not hard, it’s impossible, because you the parent are going to have social prejudices no matter how hard you try to counter them.

Amanda and Becky, thank you for writing this and braving the flames. The flamers tend to be those who think it’s none of your business so long as it’s technically consensual; I beg to differ. I also want to know if women’s desires are generally respected in the bedroom, or if patriarchal attitudes lead to male pleasure at female expense which women often consent to because they think that’s what sex has to be.

Comment #88: LR  on  09/21  at  04:20 PM

From #76

The princes and princesses and kings and nobles were pretty much gotten rid of, some at the end of guillotine blades. You’d think by now the allure of their useless lives would have ended.

Since the power of the old aristocratic class is now basically nil in most areas of the world, I’m less worried that people like the fairy-tales and myths that use them as characters, than I am about the still-powerful ideologies that threaten to create a new feudalism in the 21st century. I think people just like the stories which use kings, queens, princesses, etc. because the symbol is still potent, even if the reality is mostly gone. Though, I admit you have a point that even the symbol could help to normalize hierarchies and rulers.

Comment #89: atheist  on  09/21  at  04:23 PM

People, people. Mothers have a hard time in this society. This one has a girl who wants to play with pink princessy stuff? FINE! Let her. Neither the kids feminist credentials nor the mom’s have been revoked. Everyone keeps an open mind and gets to change their interests eventually. No harm done.

And this post struck a big ole cord with me. I am STILL figuring out how to let my boyfriends know what’s ok and what’s not - after time and time again figuring out that it’s a lot better for everyone when I’m fully enjoying myself. Damn you, pornulated society, you make sex worse for me and my partners!

I think we need something like a self-defense program in the bedroom (and yes, I know, self-defense is a reactive, blame the victim type of tactic). But it would help to have some mechanism for dealing with this stuff, rather than surprise, hurt, silence, resentment, hatred ... Some idea of how to stop it as it’s happening, and how to explain what is positive and negative. Because when it happens, I’m still always caught by surprise.

Comment #90: CassieC  on  09/21  at  04:24 PM

you’d think somebody would get tired of the aristocratic principle

Republics and Democracies are not mutually exclusive with aristocracy.  Especially Republics, where the rich and famous have more resources to run for office.  There’s a fine line between aristocracy and meritocracy, and unfortunately we seem to have crossed it all too often in recent years.  For too many people, aristocracy IS meritocracy.

Just to try to stay on-topic, I agree with Amanda on the whole pron=gay discussion.  Coburn’s a nut and it’s unsurprising he’d have a nut for chief of staff.  One then has to wonder how a nut keeps getting elected…anyway, what else would you expect to hear at the “Values Voters Summit?”

We need to have a “Progressive Values Voters Summit.”

Comment #91: liberalrob  on  09/21  at  04:24 PM

Y’all, don’t you think a little girl liking princessy clothes is perhaps not worrisome enough to start an entire flame war over?

Comment #92: atheist  on  09/21  at  04:25 PM

Ferox, you get a gold star.

Atheist, you too.

Comment #93: BeckySharper  on  09/21  at  04:28 PM

Since the power of the old aristocratic class is now basically nil in most areas of the world

Save the United States, where it’s alive and well…

Comment #94: liberalrob  on  09/21  at  04:30 PM

Hahaha, I see that parents on the thread getting defensive of their daughters’ princessy proclivities are pulling out the old “you’re not a parent so you can’t POSSIBLY understand!”

Are you some kind of wingnut?  Because the Wingnut’s stock in trade is denying reality of experience in favor of pet theories that MUST be true or else you are just being defensive if you point out that they are, well, vastly oversimplified.

Yep.

I don’t have a daughter.  And I know plenty of childfree preschool teachers who have reached similar conclusions.  Even kids raised with tight media control will like them some pink, and some of the girls will be, well, girly.

Sorry if having used my uterus offends you - or stating conclusions from experience bothers your absurd absolutitudes.  But your rantings and baiting won’t change basic reality.  Sorry.

Comment #95: Ms Kate  on  09/21  at  04:33 PM

I think we need something like a self-defense program in the bedroom (and yes, I know, self-defense is a reactive, blame the victim type of tactic).

How about sex ed that goes beyond tab A in slot B and always wear a glove?  How to be a considerate, respectful lover?  How to ask the questions, and how to give the answers?  I never had sex ed, so I don’t know what they teach in there, but that should probably be part of it.

The wingers’ heads would explode…

Comment #96: liberalrob  on  09/21  at  04:36 PM

I mean, we seem to expect young people to just learn these things on their own, without guidance.  And that just leaves things totally up to chance; maybe they learn good things, maybe they learn bad things.  Maybe hucksters bamboozle them.  What other aspect of life do we leave so totally and completely up to trial and error?  Driving?  Financial planning?  (To be fair, we do leave household financial planning out of the basic High School curriculum too, or we did at my school anyway; and look at the results.  Not pretty.)

If you want people to learn how to do something right, you have to teach them how.  We haven’t figured that out after thousands of years?

Comment #97: liberalrob  on  09/21  at  04:47 PM

People, people. Mothers have a hard time in this society. This one has a girl who wants to play with pink princessy stuff? FINE! Let her. Neither the kids feminist credentials nor the mom’s have been revoked.

Strawman.  Please point to where someone said you should take that stuff away from a girl.  Please, one example.

All that was said is they aren’t born that way.  They learn it.  Kids are sponges.  That’s all.

Comment #98: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/21  at  04:52 PM

There’s a fine line between aristocracy and meritocracy

Not really. An aristocracy is a caste system, a meritocracy is a class system. If anything, meritocracies are more insidious and dangerous, if only because they are more stable due to the large number of people who think they can actually get upwardly mobile. At least in an aristocracy the peasants aren’t as prone to being deluded into thinking their interests and those of their lord coincide.

Comment #99: BlackBloc  on  09/21  at  04:53 PM

I think a truly comprehensive sex education with an emphasis on the importance of respect would help a ton.  Scarlateen is a great resource to point kids to.

Comment #100: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/21  at  04:54 PM

Ms Kate - @#82

Unless you have spent enough time around small kids, including the meme and media sheltered ones, you don’t have enough data to draw inferences here.

Alot of people seem to discount the fact that we have all spent alot of time around kids, about 12 years, in most cases. While I don’t think that a tiny sample size of “my kids” should exclude somebody from debate, neither should not having kids.

I was a little confused by your #82 comment. You seem to support the quote you cite, but then you wrote that not spending alot of time around kids doesn’t qualify one to make inferences. I’m not sure if that was your intent.

While I don’t really agree with LR’s reaction, I have often been told that I’m not allowed to have an opinion on something (like the way I was raised, for example) unless I had kids. Something tells me that if I went through the trouble of having 3 kids and raising them to adulthood, those same people would have a different reason why my opinion was worthless.

Comment #101: I Heart Puppies  on  09/21  at  05:01 PM

The gender issues with the princess meme are just the cherry on top of the sundae of wrongness. We live in a fucking Republic and/or Democracy, you’d think somebody would get tired of the aristocratic principle, goddamit. What is so admirable about a member of a social class that was nothing more than a useless parasite on the labor of the majority of people?

If I had a daughter, I might be pushing the idea that we came from Irish peasant stock, that her great great great grandmother was a suffragist who managed to send the stuffed shirts of her day into frothing rants, and that the British upper class damn near killed her great great grandfather.  I’d know I was a success if she forgot about princesses in favour of running around dressed like a French revolutionary and screaming “off with their heads!”

Although I might discourage the baring of breasts bit.

Comment #102: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/21  at  05:08 PM

The point is, in fact, that kids don’t come pre-programmed to like or dislike specific cultural ideas. Genetics doesn’t work that way.

That’s the bottom line. And strangely enough, you don’t have to have kids to understand that.

Comment #103: Gracchus.  on  09/21  at  05:09 PM

At least in an aristocracy the peasants aren’t as prone to being deluded into thinking their interests and those of their lord coincide.

They do think that, just in a different way. The forelock-tugging serf’s delusion is that fulfilling his modest interests is wholly dependent on milord fulfilling on his own interests first.

Comment #104: Gracchus.  on  09/21  at  05:16 PM

In re: girls and pink.

My feeling based on my guts and my understanding of neuroscience is that most boys are hard-wired to do “boy actions” and have “boy tastes” and most girls are hard-wired to do “girl actions” and have “girl tastes”.  What constitutes boy vs. girl actions and boy vs. girl tastes is almost entirely social.

I see this confirmed with my own daughter.  Neither her mother nor I are big on her being into princesses, etc., but princesses are gendered as feminine, so that is what my daughter wants to be.  She didn’t get this desire from home or even really from her peers.  She just knows that she’s a girl (e.g. because she has girl parts), and the cultural milieu (which is quite inescapable) is that girls should want to be princesses.

It’s actually sometimes interesting to see how my understanding actually is confirmed by my daughter’s actions:  she actually will identify (sometimes quite at random) certain things as “this is something boys do” and certain things as “I can do this because I am a girl”.  We try to always send messages to the effect that boys and girls can do the same things, but our daughter very much clings to the idea that there are certain girl things and certain boy things.

And when she sees things geared to kids (e.g. Disney) that have girls as princesses and in pink and boys as knights in shining armor, she immediately decides she wants to be a princess and loves pink.

Comment #105: DAS  on  09/21  at  05:28 PM

I have to say, the pun in the title of this post is pretty good.  Chuckle!

Comment #106: Rumblelizard  on  09/21  at  05:49 PM

An aristocracy is a caste system, a meritocracy is a class system.

A meritocracy is a system based on merit, not class.  Merit is demonstrated aptitude, provable results.  I don’t know what your definition of meritocracy is, but that’s mine and Wikpedia’s, and I suspect it’s Webster’s.

My point was we have people who seem to think wealth equals merit, and since it’s simply objectively true that we want leaders of merit, we get leaders of wealth instead.  Wealth is sometimes an indicator of merit, but not always, and that’s a problem.

Comment #107: liberalrob  on  09/21  at  05:55 PM

But it would help to have some mechanism for dealing with this stuff, rather than surprise, hurt, silence, resentment, hatred ... Some idea of how to stop it as it’s happening, and how to explain what is positive and negative. Because when it happens, I’m still always caught by surprise.

A safe word is a good way to start.  Safe words should be inviolable.  When I use mine, it means don’t even friggin breathe for a second, because whatever just happened was very much not okay with me.  Sometimes, it can be something that was perfectly okay last time.  Even if you have established trust with your partners and feel safe asking them to stop, a safe word can be a very effective short-cut.  I strongly advise against using the word “NO” as your safe word.  Best to make it something that can’t be misunderstood at all.

As for gendered play and preference, I think it’s an individual thing.  I was raised with Barbies and floofy dresses and loved me some fairy tales, but I also liked to build things, grew very unfond of pink, and firmly believed that I could do whatever I wanted.  Except pee standing up.  That was a real disappointment.  My sons liked stuffed animals and dolls and especially playing “restaurant”.  And then they discovered wooden spoons and pot lids.  Apparently, swords and shields are just as appealing as guns (which they never did get into and still don’t).  I suspect if I’d had a daughter, she’d have picked up a “sword” too.  We may be influenced by what we see or read or hear, but even children make decisions as to what they like and what they don’t like.  My sister loved Barbies, so I gave her all mine because there were horse and dog shaped toys to play with and those were way more fun.  One son likes Legos.  The other prefers puzzles.  Sometimes, it’s easy to forget that children are people, not just products of the influences on them.

Comment #108: Reba  on  09/21  at  06:17 PM

A meritocracy is a system based on merit, not class.

I think his point is that it results in a class system, and sometimes even a self-sustaining caste system when things slip. For example, I read this summer that successful professionals are now paying companies for the “privilege” of allowing their children to work in unpaid summer internships.

An aristocracy can be looked at the decadent result of a meritocracy: at first, the most competent and skilled warriors earned their station in the first estate of that time’s class system. Over time, the quickly turned to finding tricky ways to preserve that station once the merits of warlordism became less important to governance.

Comment #109: Gracchus.  on  09/21  at  06:26 PM

A meritocracy is a system based on merit, not class.

And when one group is given access to power or wealth based on their merit (real or imagined) while another group does not, it becomes a social… what’s the word? oh yes, CLASS.

Class society is what you have when your social position is based on “merit” (i.e. you are upwardly or downwardly mobile) while a caste system is a society in which your social position is based on birth.

Comment #110: BlackBloc  on  09/21  at  07:06 PM

BTW, even the use of the terms ‘merit’ or ‘meritocracy’ smuggles in some assumptions I find distasteful. I don’t consider there is such a thing as ‘merit’ when it comes to having access to the necessities of life. “From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs.”

Comment #111: BlackBloc  on  09/21  at  07:09 PM

How about sex ed that goes beyond tab A in slot B and always wear a glove?  How to be a considerate, respectful lover?  How to ask the questions, and how to give the answers?  I never had sex ed, so I don’t know what they teach in there, but that should probably be part of it.

The wingers’ heads would explode…

I went to a public high school in NY, so our sex ed was certainly not the worst. We did have a bit on abusive relationships, which is to say we watched a Lifetime movie about one and then didn’t really discuss it, except for the teacher telling us what we should do if we knew someone in one. And we did have a bit on rape and how it’s still rape even if you know the guy, etc.

What we didn’t talk about was what good sex and good relationships were, and that meant that when it came down to it there was no positive standard to measure against. It would end up being “I didn’t hold her down, so it wasn’t rape” and “I only insist on hanging out with her four days a week, so it’s not abusive,” rather than “She wasn’t enjoying it, so I was doing something wrong” and “She’s feeling confined, so I’m doing something wrong.”

A safe word is a good way to start.  Safe words should be inviolable.  When I use mine, it means don’t even friggin breathe for a second, because whatever just happened was very much not okay with me.  Sometimes, it can be something that was perfectly okay last time.  Even if you have established trust with your partners and feel safe asking them to stop, a safe word can be a very effective short-cut.  I strongly advise against using the word “NO” as your safe word.  Best to make it something that can’t be misunderstood at all.

I think that’s a good mentality to have. Safewords are not just for BDSM.

Comment #112: Rebecca  on  09/21  at  07:19 PM

I can’t say this enough: HISTORICALLY, before the year 1900 (roughly), PINK was considered the MALE color and BLUE was considered the FEMALE color. In all novels referring to getting the baby clothes ready for the new arrival, GIRL baby clothes were BLUE and BOY baby clothes were PINK.

I have no idea how the reversal took place, but it did. THis junk is all cultural people.

I believe it was according to my History of Feminism book, mothers started dressing their daughters in pink to thumb their nose at the idea that girls were meek and should wear docile baby blue.

Comment #113: NerdGirl  on  09/21  at  07:21 PM

jdrobbin:

But it’s not just TV and playmates.  Every time she goes to the store, she can see as well as you can that all of the girl clothes are pink and purple and cutsey.  She can see that all of the “girl toys” have pink packaging and have girls playing with them on the front.  She can see that the “boy toys” are in darker colors and have boys playing with them on the front.  McDonald’s has “boy toys” and “girl toys” for some of their happy meal themes.  Fairy tales almost always have the boys as the active heroes and the girls sitting around, waiting to be rescued.  Relatives and friends can make offhand comments, especially ones who don’t get that femininity and masculinity—or at least the cues for them—are culturally programmed.  We teach gender roles and norms in a thousand different ways, and we can’t control as many as we think or as many as we’d like to.

This isn’t to say anything at all about your girl, or how you are raising her.  Just pointing out that she’s absorbed ideas about what little girls are supposed to do and supposed to like from many different sources.

Comment #114: Karinna A.  on  09/21  at  07:55 PM

Ms. Kate, it is you who are denying people’s lived realities. We’re all social beings who were once children—and we all know that media control, no matter how “tight”, is never enough to completely insulate a child from the wider world and its institutionalized prejudices. No child is affected solely by her parents; she interacts with other adults, and with children raised by those other adults, and it’s really not possible to do a PC-screen on all these other people. It’s simply unreal to insist that you can completely protect your child from all sexist influences, and therefore you “know” that she “just likes” pink.

Of course, liking pink isn’t the end of the world. It’s a neutral thing and if that’s the only sexist influence on your kid’s life, you should be happy.

Comment #115: LR  on  09/21  at  08:15 PM

In one of Louisa May Alcott’s novels, Meg puts ribbons on her twins “in the French style” with pink for the girl and blue for the boy.  So blame the French.  smile

I have two daughters who are both very enamored of princess stuff.  I like fairy tales (folklore/mythology nerd) and my husband likes castles (architecture geek) - we weren’t going to ban the concept.  We’ve found that a lot of the Disney Princess storybooks and things don’t really conflict with the values we’re trying to instill: the princesses are brave and kind and resourceful and very much not dependent on men.  In fact, now that I think about it, the princes are largely absent.  Not sure if that’s a positive or not.  But anyway, for example, we have a picture book that tells the story of Cinderella but it ends with her going to veterinary school and opening the animal shelter she always dreamed of.

I have thoughts about the performative nature of porn resulting in scenarios that are so far out there that they no longer qualify as “sex” but I’ll have to get back to that.

Comment #116: Leely  on  09/21  at  08:22 PM

most boys are hard-wired to do “boy actions” and have “boy tastes” and most girls are hard-wired to do “girl actions” and have “girl tastes”.  What constitutes boy vs. girl actions and boy vs. girl tastes is almost entirely social.

I agree. Most people want to be *something*, to define themselves in some consistent socially-acceptable way. Little girls are encouraged to play to feminine stereotypes, they get subtle positive reinforcement for it, and they start to think of themselves as “girls” and definitely not “boys.” The opposite is of course true for boys. As people get older, they find new roles they feel comfortable in, and actively work to fit those roles as well as they can. The evidence shows it doesn’t make much difference what the markers of those roles are; what matters is that we’re something definite and we’re good at being what we think we should be.

Comment #117: junk science  on  09/21  at  08:26 PM

It’s simply unreal to insist that you can completely protect your child from all sexist influences, and therefore you “know” that she “just likes” pink.

So… there are sexist codings and tropes out there defining certain things as “girl stuff” AND actually-existing girls who happen to like the things other people call “girl stuff” without having been brainwashed into it.  I mean, there’s a whole advertising industry dedicated to making ice cream look tasty, and I think that ice cream is pretty tasty, but I don’t know if The Reason why I like ice cream is my personal taste or the cultural script, or if I could ever really tell the difference experientially/cognitively.  Call it Heisenberg Pink, The Color of Uncertainty.

Comment #118: FlipYrWhig  on  09/21  at  08:38 PM

My feeling based on my guts and my understanding of neuroscience is that most boys are hard-wired to do “boy actions” and have “boy tastes” and most girls are hard-wired to do “girl actions” and have “girl tastes”.  What constitutes boy vs. girl actions and boy vs. girl tastes is almost entirely social.

That’s my experience too.  Kids go through a couple of phases—in toddlerhood, and again when they’re about five or six and start interacting with other kids a lot—where they tend to be hyper-aware of gender identity and anxious about figuring out what boys and girls are supposed to do.  You can learn a lot about what our society presents as ideal “masculine” and “feminine” behavior by the way kids these ages behave.

For instance, most of us have encountered little girls who are disturbingly good at mimicking the suggestive dancing in music videos.  Does this mean girls are biologically preprogrammed to hootchie-dance?  Of course not.  Nor are they interested in sex or sexiness as adults understand it.  But they are interested in being girls and correctly performing girl-ness, and they understand that this is something girls do.

It stands to reason that the Disney princess thing exerts an enormous cultural pull on little girls.  Can you think of any entertainment franchise with female leads that has a fraction of the marketing power and media penetration?  There’s nothing.  It’s only natural that it’s one of the major things girls turn to as a model for what it means to be a girl.

I like “Wear Clean Draws” by The Coup: “Tell your teacher I said princesses are evil/How they got all they money was they killed people.”

Comment #119: Shaenon  on  09/21  at  10:18 PM

Once you’re imprinted on pink, you like it because you like it, and there’s nothing mysterious or insincere about that. That doesn’t mean you would necessarily have liked pink just the same if you hadn’t been imprinted on it.

I also have to say that Edward and Bella make a very attractive andro/femme lesbian pairing.

Comment #120: junk science  on  09/21  at  10:18 PM

Okay, okay but one thing I’m still not sure about. If looking at straight porn turns kids gay, does that mean looking at gay porn will make them straight? It’s all so confusing!

Comment #121: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  09/21  at  10:24 PM

Homosexuality is like time and entropy. It only goes in one direction.

Comment #122: junk science  on  09/21  at  10:26 PM

Oh and Junk Science, you just described some of the most famous teen media couplings of all-time from Titanic downward.

Comment #123: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  09/21  at  10:30 PM

@79 Actually, getting a good, deep, even brown with natural dyes requires considerable skill and experience.  Dark brown was regularly worn by the upper classes, often for mourning (getting a good black took even more skill and was pretty expensive).  The lower classes generally wore undyed cloth which would have been cream, natural grey and mottled grey-brown, and paler colours which were cheaper to dye than the saturated shades favoured by the upper classes.  The 14th century urban working class would have been generally clad in creams, greys, pale blue and pale orange or orange-pink (from madder). 

And if you’re using natural dyes, a good clear pink is considerably more expensive than a light blue.  I do wonder if the advent of artificial dyes in the mid-nineteenth century had anything to do with the shift.

Comment #124: Theadosia  on  09/21  at  10:48 PM

Wow, long comment thread.  My apologies if my quick, sleepy skim missed a similar point, but I can conclusively say, after a (literally) exhaustive study conducted over the past seventeen years, that looking at mediated representations of breasts has dramatically increased the test subject’s interests in breasts.  In fact, his interests have since expanded to include lips, fingers, legs, buttocks, and vulvas, not to mention vaginal intercourse, fellatio, cunnilingus, and mutual masturbation.

He hasn’t expressed much personal interest in homosexuality yet, but it’s possible he just hasn’t gotten around to it yet.  Twenty-eight is too early to know some of these things.

Comment #125: Byronic Commando  on  09/21  at  11:19 PM

In other words, try to scare your boys off using pornography by telling them that it will make them gay.  When a wingnut says stuff like this—-that naked ladies make you gay or that every man really wants to have gay sex, but has to fight the urge like mad—-I’m forced to wonder if the entire “family values” movement would fall apart if every gay man in the closet just came out already.

I doubt it.  I really think most of these guys are straight, though you’d never deduce it from the way some of them talk.  It’s just that (I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again) within the context of Rightie Wingnut World, it’s the men that are human.  Women aren’t.  Straight men who inhabit Wingnut World therefore face a lifetime (if not an eternity) of sex with mannequins or cabbages or toaster ovens, and, unsuprisingly, it’s a prospect which discourages even the most stalwart of them.  Not that sex with a mannequin or a bucketful of pea-pods might not be fun as an occasional stunt, but regarded as a steady expectation, it’s drab.  So much for boning a female.

However, the men within Wingnut World are human and can give love and receive it, while wingnut dogma declares (covertly and not outright) that women lack the capacity to do either.  Is is any wonder that wingnut men start to yearn for each other?  Wingnut doctrine strives to solve their dilemma by declaring that, in the erotic realm, men are brutes, and that sex for a man is the equivalent of a trip to the W. C.  (Which is about what, given the nature of wingnut dogma, sex with a woman would logically be; if, that is, wingnut doctrine were reliable.) The only problem with this theory is that we all know it’s not true.  Even the wingnuts know it’s not true: too many of them have been devastated by their difficulties with women not to know it. 

So the problem remains: who’s a straight guy rightfully gonna want to wake up next to if his destined female mate has, as it were, no insides?  (Meanwhile, wingnut doctrine assures him constantly that he’s justifed in nothing so much as in loving his buddies but that it’s his buddies—the people he loves and is allowed to love—who must remain physically forever out of reach.)

A wingnut’s life is not a happy one.

Wingnuttia has yet to solve this poser, and IMHO they can’t solve it; they’ve gotten caught in the net of their own contradictions.  One can sense this is the tortuousness of the rhetoric they use whenever these kinds of issues come up.  (If boys don’t like guys, and if boys don’t like porn, it must be that looking at porn turns you gay, even if it would make about as much sense to profess that since boys don’t like gays and since boys also don’t like broccoli, eating broccoli turns you gay too.)  These people have to know they’re babbling; they can’t possibly not know it, but the reason they keep it up is that working your jaw without taking a break can keep you from ever having to think.  If these characters were ever to wean themselves from the sound of their own voices they’d realize consciously (as they already realize semi-consciously) that just as ideas have consequences, opinions have implications, and that the implications of the opinions of many wingnut men have proven to be awesomely bad not only for others but for themselves.  They’re doing themselves no favors by being wingnuts.  They’re doing other people no favors by continuing to be wingnuts.  And they comprehend that.  But they’ve worn themselves deeply into a groove, and they can’t imagine life outside the paradox.

Comment #126: bekabot  on  09/22  at  12:03 AM

It was never part of my culture for girls to like anything pink, and so I never did.

Comment #127: scratchy888  on  09/22  at  12:30 AM

Okay, okay but one thing I’m still not sure about. If looking at straight porn turns kids gay, does that mean looking at gay porn will make them straight? It’s all so confusing!

Sure.  All the girl-on-girl pictorials are put there by Christians to ensure male heterosexuality.  And this is proven by all the heterosexual males watching them.

Oh, wait - not that kind of gay porn?  You mean there’s other types?

Comment #128: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/22  at  12:36 AM

Had a son. Had a daughter. Tried my best to shield both of them from sexist expectations. Watched as sexist expectations filtered in with absolutely devilish insinuation and now have a boy who loves martial arts anime and a girl who is madly into pink fairy princess costumes.

I have absolutely no illusions as to how socially mandated these preferences are. They come from EV. ERY. WHERE in EVERY tiny contact with the world or with people who aren’t on their best non-sexist behavior.

People who claim the girly princessy shit is inborn clearly aren’t paying enough attention to how our culture subconsciously affects our tastes.

Probably the same people who claim they or their wife/sister/mother just do like shaving their legs, because, that’s why.

Comment #129: kristin  on  09/22  at  12:44 AM

JohnGor0:

Usually, starting a sentence with “My opinion is…” is a dead giveaway that I’m not stating that I know something to be a proven fact.

And this is to Amanda’s point about cognitive dissonence. MY OPINION is that you are seeing Amanda attacked, and reading things that aren’t in my post.

Sorry, I did misread you.

I wasn’t assuming you were attacking Amanda, however.  I was noticing that you were rejecting one person’s hasty generalization and substituting your own.  That you phrased it as your opinion does moderate it a bit.

Comment #130: oldfeminist  on  09/22  at  01:26 AM

Man, I missed most of the thread going to class and watching House.

I think most girls in America like pink stuff.  I don’t think it’s biological; in fact, I’m certain it’s not biological, since little girls the world over don’t crave pink things.

I do think it’s weird that, given that biology and culture can both explain human behaviors extremely well, and given that we can be pretty sure biology isn’t the culprit in this particular case, there’s such a strong animosity toward culture.  I guess because it’s feminist parents here, and “culture” gets conflated with “the parents” a lot.

And I mean… hrm.  I think Amanda’s kind of a jerk on music?  I tend to read what she says pretty critically completely because of her music posts, actually.  And she was actually careful in her post and in her comments in this thread not to conflate enjoying sexist culture stuff with inculcating sexist culture stuff.  And the commentariat here tends to be really smart people, including some of the people who took issue with stuff Amanda didn’t quite say.

I don’t even know what the solution to that is.  I seriously doubt many people come to Pandagon spoiling for a fight over whether their daughter’s love of pink dresses is evil.  I just think maybe we live in a culture of vilification.  “There’s a problem with your daughter” shouldn’t be as incendiary a sentence as it is.  But it really fucking is an incendiary sentence.

Comment #131: Ferox  on  09/22  at  01:38 AM

junk science:

I also have to say that Edward and Bella make a very attractive andro/femme lesbian pairing.

Stubborn Kind of Fellow:

Oh and Junk Science, you just described some of the most famous teen media couplings of all-time from Titanic downward.

So if 12-year-olds are the people who have the best sense of what is sexually right and wrong, based on teen boys’ fear and revulsion of teh ghey, then women should all want femme men? 

Because I can live with that.

Comment #132: oldfeminist  on  09/22  at  01:42 AM

So if 12-year-olds are the people who have the best sense of what is sexually right and wrong, based on teen boys’ fear and revulsion of teh ghey, then women should all want femme men?

This kind of explains why my NOT macho-man son is so popular with the ladies.  In a twisted and strange way. 

People who claim the girly princessy shit is inborn clearly aren’t paying enough attention to how our culture subconsciously affects our tastes.

True, but people who claim that some girls aren’t naturally “girly” (as well as some boys) and that the girliness wouldn’t happen and we’d have perfect unigendered tots if ONLY the PARENTS would DO SOMETHING are smoking something rich, too.  It is almost an assumption of either an innate genderlessness of children or that being “girly” is entirely culturally determined - and wrong.

Then again, I just watched a doctor show ... so I think I know something about surgery.  And I spent two weeks in Ireland so I’m an expert on Irish Culture, too.  All of which is as naive as “I was a kid once so I am an expert” and “I dont’ have to spend time with kids to JUST KNOW ...”.

The fact is, there is wide variation in human gender expression that extends even to young children.  Children are NOT GENDERLESS.  That does not mean that they are “hard wired evopsych blah blah all of them” though.  My eldest son wore dresses (now that’s an experience in dealing with societal normalization!!!) but my younger wanted NOTHING to do with them.  Or pinky purple, either.  My son still has female friends who don’t engage in the girly clothes or culture, and some who are quite girly.  I don’t deny that such variation is suppressed by cultural norms which dictate strict gender roles, but I STRENUOUSLY reject the naive notion that kids would exhibit NO range of gender expression absent culture.  While no kid is culture free, I’ve seen enough kids who come from homes with a variety of rules about culture and media to know better.

Comment #133: Ms Kate  on  09/22  at  09:50 AM

Was Jesus really female.  Discuss.

Comment #134: Ms Kate  on  09/22  at  09:52 AM

“Was Jesus really female.  Discuss.”

The one actually descibed in the New Testament?  Could easily be.  After all, Jesus has empathy and understanding, turns the other cheek, doesn’t worship the hierarchy, believes even women and poor people are still full human beings.  S/He could easily be a Democrat, for heaven’s sake…

The Religious Rambo the wingnuts/fundnuts wish was in the New Testament?  Definitely an 11 on the scale of manliness… and an all around asshole…

Comment #135: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  11:26 AM

True, but people who claim that some girls aren’t naturally “girly” (as well as some boys) and that the girliness wouldn’t happen and we’d have perfect unigendered tots if ONLY the PARENTS would DO SOMETHING are smoking something rich, too.

Who made this argument here, in this thread?  Who said that (a) having gendered preferences is always bad and (b) the parents are to blame for it?

Not all little girls like pink.  All people are defined by their gender, which is inescapable, and there aren’t actually many feminists (that I can think of, anyway) arguing that we should escape gender.  But our culture is full of very pervasive messages that girls should like princess stuff, and I think it’s folly to argue that American girls biologically want to be princesses.

They might biologically want to conform to cultural cues—in fact, I personally believe that’s true—but the cultural cues are provided from the outside.  And I think it’s a good idea to question those cultural cues and where they come from, even though all of us have already conformed to them to some extent.

Nobody here is saying you’re a bad parent if your children grow up gendered.  And it’s weird that you’d construct that argument in order to tear it down.  Not bad, even, that you’d do that.  I just think it’s strange, and I’m not sure why these discussions go down that road so consistently.

Comment #136: Ferox  on  09/22  at  11:34 AM

I never liked the notion that homophobic wingnuts must necessarily be closet cases; for one thing, it’s circular. But in Schwarz’s case I think that’s the only explanation.

RickMassimo (20):

He said, “all pornography is homosexual pornography because all pornography turns your sexual drive inwards. Now think about that. And if you, if you tell an 11-year-old boy about that, do you think he’s going to want to go out and get a copy of Playboy? I’m pretty sure he’ll lose interest. That’s the last thing he wants.” You know, that’s a, that’s a good comment. It’s a good point and it’s a good thing to teach young people.

I have read that quote at least six times over the past 12 hours and I seriously haven’t got the first fucking clue what he’s talking about.

I guess, if you lie to kids and tell them porn is gay, kids who’ve been raised as homophobes will avoid it.

But I guess porn in which only men are fully fleshed out gives the idea that only men are truly involved in sex, so you want to have sex with either a man or a woman who’ll turn her existence off for you, and then you can’t talk to them.

KiethM (44):

the idea that you could be seduced into gayness while being inherently straight was stupid

I see your point, but it makes perfect sense if you consider heterosexuality to be the unmarked state. So it’s not that there are gay people and straight people, it’s straight people (i.e., everyone) and straight people who’ve deviated from the path (and become gay, bi, etc.) If that were reality, that gays are out there recruiting and that straight people are being seduced into homosexuality would be more or less sensible fears, at least as far as being something that could actually happen, particularly since there are so many examples of people “turning gay” (i.e., coming out of the closet, but that requires you to believe there’s a closet to begin with).

Comment #137: Hershele Ostropoler  on  09/22  at  09:14 PM

Kee-effing-ripes, people. pullup diapers come in boy and girl packages. As soon as baby rides down that aisle they’re being exposed to the stereotypical images. (Not to mention all the gendered board books.)

Another thing struck me about oldfeminist’s notion that queer sex is attractive for conservatives just because it’s forbidden. It ain’t just women for whom badly-executed sex can be painful and not particularly fun. So in a way all these guys ranting about the awful attractions of homosex may be in part holding on to the desperate hope that somewhere for somebody there is sex that is actually enjoyable in a life-changing way.

And that it has to be stopped at all costs.

Comment #138: paul  on  09/22  at  11:05 PM

pullup diapers come in boy and girl packages.

I always hoped that was because girls have “innies” while boys have “outies.”

If the diapers are identical, gendered packaging is ludicrous.

Comment #139: Hector B.  on  09/23  at  01:59 AM

The diapers aren’t identical, but the packaging can still be a lot more similar than it is (I’ll defend putting girls’ diapers in pink packages and boys’ in blue on the grounds that we want to keep harried, hurried parents from getting the wrong kind, but grudgingly, and there’s no reason to make the diapers or the packages more different than nature requires).

Comment #140: Hershele Ostropoler  on  09/23  at  09:42 AM
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