If your taser looked and felt like a gun, wouldn’t you be less likely to fire it into someone’s back? Because you would normally hesitate before firing your gun into someone’s back.

Now if they carried a gun that looked and felt like a taser (or a super soaker, or a hair dryer), I could understand the confusion.

Where’s your sense of proportion, Jesse? Thank God Mr. McCain identified the true tragedy in this affair. Yes, it certainly is unfortunate what happened to that young man, but business owners—at least some of whom are probably white—are going to have to replace their windows!

The Iraq invasion/occupation protests were very tame compared with the Vietnam occupation protests. Perhaps that is why the protests against the Iraq invasion/occupation were ineffective. When the establisment considers the people to be compliant and obedient, regardless the source of their discontent, they have no fear of them. The establishment needs to fear the people in order to make it compliant and obedient to popular will.

This is thorny, messy and ugly.  As an Oakland resident who heard the helicopters overhead from early evening until the wee hours of the morning today, I am deeply saddened by every aspect of this situation.

This was an execution - intentional or not.  The transit cop and his employer are fully responsible.  Anger is fully justified.

It is, however, very sad that - and this is the second time this has happened in Oakland since I’ve lived here - people tend to express that anger in a way that hurts *themselves*.  They smashed windows of black-owned businesses, they trashed the downtown of a city that desperately needs the revenues from those businesses to meet the needs of residents.  And considering that the BART police are not connected in any way to the city of Oakland, it - like the precipitating crime - all seems pointless.

I understand that in hopelessness, people lash out at convenient targets, but it has expanded the tragedy exponentially.

This is so completely indefensible even when you interpret the events in the most possible favorable interpretation to the officer (as you have done).  He has said absolutely nothing so people are just assuming that he mistook his gun for a taser.  Who knows what actually happened.

The anger is justified, but it is sad that the people who are paying for that are fellow Oaklanders.

As I understand it, most of the vandalism was aimed at police cruisers.  I also heard the Mayor’s Lexis got totaled.

And I have a hard time feeling bad about that.  If the police won’t arrest their own - and to date this guy hasn’t been arrested, deposed, or otherwise dealt with like the criminal he is - then they’re not doing their job.  And if they don’t do their job, they should receive a public backlash.

I’m not a big fan of collateral damage, but I’m not a big fan of stupid cops either.  Seems like you could fix the former by handling the latter.

What’s funny is that McCain actually answered his own question:

Or do the rioters suppose that this shooting would be swept under the rug unless they smashed windows and burned cars?

Yes, that’s exactly what they fear might happen.  That’s why people are demonstrating and rioting—because they’re afraid that no prosecution will result if they don’t.  Hell, the guy hasn’t even given a statement yet—because he immediately resigned, he doesn’t have to make a report to BART Internal Affairs, and no one seems to know what to do now because there’s that whole parallel system set up where cops get investigated differently than would the rest of us who shoot a man in the back while he’s laying on the ground with two cops holding his arms.

What time do you all think cookie is going to show up and justify shooting an unarmed man in the back while he’s laying face-down on the ground with two cops holding him down?  I give him about 15 minutes from now.

Is the officer in question still allowed to carry dangerous weaponry?  Cuz his ‘excuse’ would seem to indicate he’s in no way competent to handle anything more potentially harmful than a Nerf ball.

The article cited above as a reference to “the ensuing massive anger and rioting resulting from this act. ” http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gO4s1dgxjYfHi3mbqoobWZZomz3gD95J2MNG0
is perhaps a bit misleading.
This article gives, I think, a more accurate description of the rioting:
“The roving mob expressed fury at police and frustration over society’s racial injustice. Yet the demonstrators were often indiscriminate, frequently targeting the businesses and prized possessions of people of color.”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2009/01/08/MN2N155CN1.DTL

Ack, sorry…didn’t read all the way through…still, there’s video evidence giving excellent cause for this guy to be forever banned from firearms or other dangerous weapons.

Nobody here should be at all surprised that the BART video for that platform is not available (cough) due to apparently a technical glitch (cough cough).  If the deceased had attacked the officer I do not doubt that the official video

Love camera phones, people.  They are perhaps the only thing standing between you and the cops being even more out of control than they are now.

typo:
“I do not doubt that the official video would have been instantly available to the media.”

Ah, yes—Robert Stacey “Emmett Till had it coming” McCain:

http://www.eschatonblog.com/2003_01_12_atrios_archive.html#90203074

Should we suspect agent provocateurs? Aren’t these often used to trigger violence at already tense demonstrations?

Never, ever believe anything that the government tells you. Ever. It is always a lie. They are only interested in their own self preservation or enrichment. This man was executed. Pure & simple. There isn’t another word for it.

BTW, they’re lucky that the “protestors” only broke some windows. They should’ve fucking stormed city hall.

And wtf would an officer be justfied in tasing that guy, much less shooting him?  The had him handcuffed, and more-or-less under control, it looks like.

sara:
Yes, always be suspicious of this.  But in this case I hardly think it necessary. 

Further, the police response was tentative and hesitant, almost uncertain.  If there are provocateurs and a plan then the response is generally more targeted and rapid. 

Another thing to watch for is a small “flying squad” of officers ready to race into the crowd and make specific arrests of specific individuals.  They are there either to arrest ringleaders who have been identified by moles (if it is an organized, penetrated group) or to rapidly “arrest” (really, snatch and save) their agent if he is outed by the crowd.  It was interesting to watch this in action some time ago during a demonstration in Quebec when some masked jerk started throwing things: the crowd turned on him, yelling at him to stop and the riot cops where right there to “arrest” the provocateur and whisk him away.  Video showed the soles of his police-issue boots as he was “dragged” away!

What rea said.  I’m not buying the excuse that this dude couldn’t tell his gun from his taser, but even conceding that, there was no reason for him to be reaching for a weapon at all—whether gun or taser.  Grant was on the ground, handcuffed.  The only motive the cop could have had for his actions was to wantonly inflict pain on a subject wholly under his control.  It makes me think of all of those stories and videos that Pam is always posting about taser deaths.  Tasers are basically torture devices, and the fact that they are considered non-lethal is a travesty.

Love camera phones, people.  They are perhaps the only thing standing between you and the cops being even more out of control than they are now.

Apparently they tried to confiscate all the cell phones for “evidence,” but two people managed to keep theirs as the train pulled out of the station. That’s the only reason we have this video.

And agreed with those who say even tasing this guy would have been unjustified. He was on the ground, with his hands behind his back. He was already “subdued.” And if they persist in that as the “defense” of this action - that the officer mistook his gun for his taser - expect a big lawsuit against BART over their training procedures. Because that’s a mistake that should never, ever happen.

there’s video evidence giving excellent cause for this guy to be forever banned from firearms or other dangerous weapons.

Um, there’s video evidence giving excellent cause for this guy to be sitting in the pokey without bail awaiting his trial for murder two.

Which would be why they’re rioting.

And wtf would an officer be justfied in tasing that guy, much less shooting him?  The had him handcuffed, and more-or-less under control, it looks like.

Didn’t you know, rea?  Police are justified - nay, obligated - in tasing anyone who demonstrates anything less than instant and total submission.  Be you child, old person, suffering a seizure, mentally ill and standing in a high place where you’re guaranteed to fall to your death, pinned to the ground and cuffed already, harmless by any objective measure, it doesn’t matter.  If the cops decide you’re a little too squirrelly for their taste, get ready for some voltage.

Should we suspect agent provocateurs? Aren’t these often used to trigger violence at already tense demonstrations?

I’ve seen posts elsewhere from people in the Bay Area who are pretty sure it’s the anarchkiddies up to their favorite tricks again.  Glom on to someone else’s demonstration so I can do some property damage and then head back to Berkeley?  Don’t mind if I do!

Does anyone from California know how long it took the areas most affected by the Rodney King riots to recover economically and for businesses to move back in? Is it possible that the outcome of this incident will be that even more grocery stores and other private businesses will flee from a predominantly minority area where they are desperately needed?

Actually, the Bart station video has been a known issue… The news did a report on how most of the cameras are currently not working at any one time, about six months ago.

Why he wasn’t arrested and then held - even in house arrest - as a formality really frustrates me.  Police need to be held to a higher standard.

I completely understand the fury and frustration of the protesters, but having lived in Oakland and dealt with the Oakland P.D., I also understand that this is likely to result in more shootings of civilian protesters by the police. Oakland’s police force is notoriously crappy.  They’ve commissioned a number of studies to help them redirect the police force and make it more effective only to completely ignore the results because they conflict with how the force views itself.

“Does anyone from California know how long it took the areas most affected by the Rodney King riots to recover economically and for businesses to move back in?”

I don’t think they have. Honestly it was less about rioting over police brutality and more about looting property that didn’t belong to them.

Rioting in your own neighborhoods is counterproductive in the extreme.

Also the Vietnam riots are considered a cause of how the conservative movement took over since they could point to the riots as what happens when liberals are allowed to roam free.

Also the Vietnam riots are considered a cause of how the conservative movement took over since they could point to the riots as what happens when liberals are allowed to roam free.

Maybe it’s just me, but the riots that the Right really pointed to were things like Watts and the aftermath of Dr. King’s assassination in 1968. 

When I think of domestic violence with regard to Vietnam, I’m more likely to think of the cops going apeshit in Chicago in 1968, or murders at Kent State or Jackson State. Maybe that’s just me, though.

Race was FAR more important in the rise of the right than was Vietnam.

Is it possible that the outcome of this incident will be that even more grocery stores and other private businesses will flee from a predominantly minority area where they are desperately needed?

So, let’s say, hypothetically, I’m a middle aged black man looking to open a business and I have a wife and two kids.  And let’s say my kids won’t be owning their own cars and will be expected to ride public transit.  And let’s say I don’t want my kids shot in the back.

Should I open my business in Oakland?  Because, you know, I’ve heard they have riots.

“I also heard the Mayor’s Lexis got totaled.

And I have a hard time feeling bad about that.”

The mayor of Oakland is RON DELLUMS, for Chrissake.  And if you’ve never heard of him, then STFU and google him.  You might learn something.

Like other Bay Area residents who have posted, I have mixed feelings about this horrible ordeal.  It’s true that the BART shooting was a massive injustice and part of a long string of abuses by the Oakland police.  But the protests almost immediately spun out of control and turned into indiscriminate rioting—much of it against black residents and black-owned local businesses.  I want justice too, but I don’t see how trashing the African Braids Hair Salon is going to teach racist cops a lesson.

I’m not surprised by the violence, though.  Oakland is a powderkeg.  It’s actually a nicer city than you’d guess from stories like this, but sometimes I fear for the lives of my friends who live there.

From what I’ve been hearing in the Bay Area media, the violence is coming from a small group of anarchists who show up at almost every protest.  They have no connection to the Oakland African-American community.

I’ve avoided watching these videos since this story broke since I feel funny about watching someone die on YouTube, for chrissake.  Finally broke and watched this one.

Awful, awful, awful.  Gah.

So, let’s say, hypothetically, I’m a middle aged black man looking to open a business and I have a wife and two kids.  And let’s say my kids won’t be owning their own cars and will be expected to ride public transit.  And let’s say I don’t want my kids shot in the back.

Should I open my business in Oakland?  Because, you know, I’ve heard they have riots.

Zifnab25, I love you. Thank you.

Had the violence been directed just at the cops, I might have understood, but the ugliness described in reports was people using politics as an excuse to break things.

It also seems the protesters at the center of the vandalism directed at locals weren’t from Oakland. They were from San Fransisco and they were out to make a point.

And I’m sorry, but I fail to see how anyone at Pandagon could show sympathy for using a shooting death as a pretext for frat boy violence which targeted women:

Near 14th and Alice streets, Myron Bell was taking dance lessons in “step,” a form of dance popular among African Americans, when he looked out the window and saw people jumping on his Lexus sedan.

Bell, 42, came out to find that almost all of the car’s windows, including the front and back had been smashed and it appeared that someone had tried to set the car on fire.

“I’m for the cause,” said Bell, who is black. “But I’m against the violence and destruction.”

Nearby, Godhuli Bose stood near her smashed Toyota Corolla as a man walked by, repeatedly called her a misogynist slur and then added, “F- your car.”

Bose, a high school teacher, said: “I can’t afford this.”

...

The core group of the mob appeared to be about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributed the “Revolution” newspaper - whose tagline is “voice of the Revolutionary Communist Party, U.S.A.” - as he shouted “This whole damn system is guilty!”

Soo Jung Sung, an Asian American, didn’t understand why she was to blame. She wept as she looked at the shattered front windshield of her Nissan Montero.

“Emotionally, I totally understand them,” she said of the upset over Grant’s shooting. “But it’s not nice.”

More Here:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2009/01/08/MN2N155CN1.DTL

“It’s true that the BART shooting was a massive injustice and part of a long string of abuses by the Oakland police.”

Just a quibble: this man was killed not by Oakland PD but by the BART police.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police

As an SF resident, I would kindly ask that people refrain from quoting the Chronicle article.  The Chron is a shockingly reactionary, nigh-right wing paper that always sides with business, cops and government.  The bias inherent in that article should be apparent to anyone who doesn’t already have an axe to grind.  Amazing how the only protesters quoted in the article have ugly things to say, isn’t it? 

It’s awfully easy to blame the “anarchists” and the unruly protesters while completely ignoring the long history of cops being exonerated (in CA and elsewhere) for similarly indefensible shootings.  People are smashing shit because they’re angry.  Not just about this, last night is the culmination of years and years of pent up anger at a systems that privileges whiteness and power (and cops specifically) over the lives of innocent people of color.  Let’s not forget that Oscar Grant was the alleged VICTIM of the fight on the BART train.  Or that he died begging not to be hurt or killed.

The latest stupid in Boston is the cops arresting people who are taping or photographing them arrest and harass people claiming that the videos are an “illegal wiretap”.  Never mind that this has been repeatedly tossed out by the courts as bullshit, they are still trying it.

And I’m sorry, but I fail to see how anyone at Pandagon could show sympathy for using a shooting death as a pretext for frat boy violence which targeted women.

Concern troll is concerned.

So the system and the privileges of whiteness have what to do with minority owned businesses? You’re fucking kidding me right?

I was there last night and if you try and justify the destroying of minority owned business you are being counterproductive. Conquer and divide. Go ahead and burn Oakland down, they’re just going to replace it with shit my community won’t be able to afford. They’re just waiting for it.

If you want to go fuck some shit up, go fuck up a bart train assholes. I know the long history in Oakland and I was also in South Central during the riots and hurting your own community because you’re angry is not going to work.

I agree with above Oakland resident. Being angry does not give you a license to smash stuff. We’re not barbarians!! Fruitvale station is my BART stop, and I shouldn’t have to be afraid to use it. I also agree with above statement about Oakland being a powderkeg. I was recently mugged by 2 teenage girls while 3 young guys they were with watched (probably a gang thing - they called me a Nortena, even though I wasn’t even wearing red). I may have to move. This place is too violent.

by the way, Oscar Grant worked at my local grocery store. He seemed like a really nice guy. His family was just on tv, begging people not to keep making this worse. This is just tragic all around.

Wow, I didn’t know that burning down the local Hallmark store would breath life back into that dead man!  Who knew that breaking out the windows and causing untold damages to innocent businesses would turn back time!  Oh, that’s right - it doesn’t!  To advocate such actions is irresponsible and ignorant.  Be pissed off and protest City Hall, the police stations, BART - but don’t take it out on hard-working innocent people.

Hard working, innocent people who will take their businesses and business and selves if they can afford to do so somewhere safe.

From what I’ve been hearing in the Bay Area media, the violence is coming from a small group of anarchists who show up at almost every protest.  They have no connection to the Oakland African-American community

and

The core group of the mob appeared to be about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributed the “Revolution” newspaper - whose tagline is “voice of the Revolutionary Communist Party, U.S.A.” - as he shouted “This whole damn system is guilty!”

Not surprised at all. Locals, even righteously enraged ones, would know better than to target the African Braids Hair Salon and trash the cars of random neighbourhood residents.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if the “leaders” of this group of vandals are in fact agents provocateurs who get a healthy stipend from the California state police. And here’s something I’d put money on: this was probably the first visit to scary ol’ Oakland for most of their suburbanite anarkiddie followers.

It just goes to show that a successful street protest is a rare thing these days. More often than not, the organisers either: a) impose too much control, leading to ANSWER-style purity demands that turn off moderates who’d otherwise march; or b) impose too little discipline, leading to rioting. In either case, the police agents and anarkiddies will make their appearances, and the MSM will show up to portray a protest for a just cause as the work of vandals and extremists.

All this doesn’t excuse the BART policeman’s execution of Mr. Grant, of course. This disgusting incident stinks of a rotten organisational culture, shoddy training, and a sense of accountability to no-one. This cop deserves to be brought up on second degree murder charges—at the very least.

The phonecam videos and photos will help with that, and other incidents of police brutality. But it’s important to know your rights about BS like this ...

Apparently they tried to confiscate all the cell phones for “evidence,” but two people managed to keep theirs as the train pulled out of the station. That’s the only reason we have this video.

and this ...

The latest stupid in Boston is the cops arresting people who are taping or photographing them arrest and harass people claiming that the videos are an “illegal wiretap”.  Never mind that this has been repeatedly tossed out by the courts as bullshit, they are still trying it.

Oakland Resident(s): I agree. We are NOT barbarians.

Which is why we should prosecute our law enforcement officials when they go around shooting subdued, prostrate men in the back, wouldn’t you agree?

Why do people who are part of a violent mob direct their violence at the nearest easy targets rather than at the well-armed, well-organized paramilitary forces who “ought” to be the targets of their anger? Gee, I don’t know. Because they’re not suicidal? Because they’re a mob, not a well-organized paramilitary of their own?

Jody,
I don’t think anyone’s suggesting the officer shouldn’t be prosecuted! so yes, everyone agrees with you.

Can we all stay safe and sane in the meantime? Would YOU agree with THAT?

@ Jody

Is that even a question here?

And I also agree. Which is why we should not go around justifying people using their anger for the reason why they went around trashing minority businesses, wouldn’t you agree? Especially when it’s the same people they demand justice for?

@ Paul

I wouldn’t go so far to say that they aren’t suicidal because you fuck with the wrong person by messing with their business or only fucking mode of transportation, you just may end up laid out on the ground. It is Oakland and everything so there are people that don’t play that shit. And you wouldn’t be justifying their behaviour would you? And really, they had no problem fucking that patrol car up.

“targets rather than at the well-armed, well-organized paramilitary forces who “ought” to be the targets of their anger?”

Lots of incidents over the past few hundred years show that a mob of people can overpower said well organized paramilitary force and these were mobs btw.

Loomer, if the Chron source sucks, what source should we be using instead to understand what really happened?

Also, yes, “the protestors quoted have ugly things to say”; these are the ones who broke off from the peaceful protest, as seemed clear to me.

The Oakland residents sound a little…puppety.

i have two question that i think REALLY need to be asked, but i haven’t seen them asked yet

first. if a cop has a Taser, why do they have a gun? is the Taser supposed to *replace* the gun?
second. why the fuck are SUBWAY COPS carrying guns?
these are actually two seperate questions - and i CAN see subway cops MAYBE needing Tasers. but not guns.

i have not seen either of these question, i’m pretty sure. of course, i don’t read everything. is this discussed anywhere? why transit cops are carrying guns (aren’t they essentially rent-a-cops, anyway? so how are they allowed guns? i’m pretty sure i am confused there, i thought rent-a-cops couldn’t have guns) or why ANY cops are carrying BOTH???

sigh typo, that was “ISN’T the Taser…”

Thanks Antigone.

Is that what you do when someone doesn’t exactly go along with the program? It’s puppety to be angry about people trashing businesses in the downtown area(ones that have ZERO to do with Oscar)? Maybe this hits a little too close to home for me. Seeing my people trashing minority owned stores in the area or attacking a brother driving a cab shakes me to my core. The total disregard.

If that seems puppety to you, fine. But I will kindly ask you to kiss my puppety ass because what I saw last night with MY eyes down on 14th and madison is uncalled for bullshit that even the family of Oscar Grant thinks is ridiculous.

Oakland Resident, did I say a goddamned thing about your stances?  No, what I said is that you, and Another, sounded like finger puppets of one another.  If you have something to say, you can say it on one handle.

“why transit cops are carrying guns (aren’t they essentially rent-a-cops, anyway? so how are they allowed guns?”

Numerous rent a cop agencies allow their personel to carry guns on the job. Wells Fargo guards for example are armed as are Pinkertons even if they are just at a Chicken processing plant.

Also transit cops are cops with full police powers in most cities sometimes with even more powers. Usually they are just another divison of the police department or they are under a federal agency like Homeland Security or another department hence authorized to use deadly force. Cities like New Orleans also have Port Police that are responisible for the security of the port and have similar powers.

http://www.bart.gov/about/police/index.aspx

“Do BART police officers have the same police authority as city police officers and deputy sheriffs?
Yes. BART police officers are fully sworn peace officers that have the same powers of arrest as city police officers and county sheriff’s deputies. In addition, BART officers attend the same police academies and receive continuous police training.

In addition to taking enforcement action on BART property, can BART police officers take enforcement action off of BART property (i.e., within city limits, county jurisdictions, or on state highways)?
Yes. BART officers may take enforcement action off of BART jurisdiction, anywhere within the state of California. If there is immediate danger to persons or property, BART officers may arrest, cite and release, or warn the perpetrators.”

@ Denelian

They have guns because they are a police agency(post certified). BART police aren’t rent-a-cops. They have the same authority as OPD or any other agency. BART PD was specifically formed to deal with problems on BART. The BART system passes through many different jurisdictions and the issues that do arise on BART can be taxing for the city agencies to deal with. They’re like airport police, they specifically deal with problems in a certain area, but have the authority to make arrests and carry guns.

A cop has both a taser and a gun because one is supposed to be the “non-lethal” method of control. The other is meant as a last resort for situation when the officer is in danger. (Example: If you are point a gun at an officer, you’ll be getting the lethal method, not a taser)

And I hope knowing all this doesn’t make me puppety.

And I have, Antigone darling. You need IP addresses to be pulled or something?

I’ve been an Oakland homeowner for 15 years and I’m black.  I’ve always had the utmost of respect for Ron Dellums, until he was elected mayor of Oakland.  I’ll be honest, he should have stayed retired.  He’s phoning it in at this point.  He had little or nothing to say about this shooting, until someone finally convinced him to step outside City Hall and talk to the crowd that was protesting there.  He literally conducts most city business in secret.  He is almost never seen or heard.  Much as I disliked some of Jerry Brown’s policies, he was always out and around visiting the neighborhoods and seeing what was going on.  He was accessible, Dellums is not.  Sadly, I keep hoping he gets some position with the Obama administration, so we can have an actual mayor again…

Be you child, old person, suffering a seizure, mentally ill and standing in a high place where you’re guaranteed to fall to your death, pinned to the ground and cuffed already, harmless by any objective measure

Pregnant. You forgot pregnant.

Why riot, though? Why not boycott the BART system, Birmingham-style or “A Day Without Immigrants”-style? Why not bury the police under lawsuits?

Rioting is counterproductive, I think. It gives people who don’t really care about the issue at hand license to break and steal things, and gives those who don’t care to think an excuse to ostracize the entire group. The rage is reasonable, but has to be focused. It’s the different between a 9mm bullet and a shell full of rock salt.

We know that cops deliberately murder people when the cops get irritated. There is little reason to pretend that this cop made any “mistake.”

And why is it presumed to be okay that a cop is even planning to taser a victim who’s already restrained on the ground? The authoritarians are wearing us down by attrition. They kill enough people, and we’re all happy when all they do is torture an already-restrained victim.

Why not boycott the BART system,

Talk about a disproportionate response.

I saw his family crying and pleading for the rioting to stop. The wrong people are being victimized ont he streets, and the family is being victimized yet again as they try to cope with their personal grief and horror and now have to deal with people doing evil deeds in his memory. Not cool.

Of course something should be done. I’d cheer if people sit down in front of the stations and peaceful block people from using the BART system—and cheer even more if those with vehicles run car pools so those who don’t can get to their jobs and not risk being fired.
That way the only people being fired would be BART cops—as the executives for the transit system do what they have to do to get the system running again.

And ALL three cops need to go to jail, the murderer, and the accessories.

We know that cops deliberately murder people when the cops get irritated. There is little reason to pretend that this cop made any “mistake.”

In the better video I’ve seen, the cop in question looks startled when he fires, so, at first blush, it doesn’t look like he intended to shoot the man.

Note for the immediate knee-jerking to follow: THIS DOES NOT MEAN HE’S INNOCENT.  Even if he had no intention of shooting him, the very best one can say is that he’s an incompetent idiot who has no business carrying a gun because he’s a clear danger to those around him.

In the better video I’ve seen, the cop in question looks startled when he fires, so, at first blush, it doesn’t look like he intended to shoot the man.

And his gun just materialized in his hand with his finger on the trigger? He puts his hands to his face because he just got a bunch of Oscar Grant all over his face. Splashback is what happens when you shoot someone at that close range.

I am so outraged at the BART Police that I think I will imagine burning down Revolution Books in Berkeley. That will show the world that justice must be done!

why is it presumed to be okay that a cop is even planning to taser a victim who’s already restrained on the ground?

Tasering is not presumed to be okay (see other posts here); it is just a lower order of fuckedupness than shooting someone in the back. As the onion of BART police fuckery is peeled, this will be the next question to ask. Personnel selection and training need to be analyzed as well.

BTW, they’re lucky that the “protestors” only broke some windows. They should’ve fucking stormed city hall.

There’s some serious ignorance. As several people have already pointed out THE SHOOTING HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH OAKLAND.

This was a man from Hayward—which is not Oakland—shot by a cop from the Bay Area Transit Authority - which is also not Oakland.

Why then, should OAKLAND’S city hall be stoned?

Good article on this up right now on Counterpunch:  http://www.counterpunch.org/

I say the rioters are pretty damn justified.  They know if they behave, it’ll all be swept under the rug.

Oakland resident, do you know what a sock-puppet is in internet terms?

Why then, should OAKLAND’S city hall be stoned?

BART’s headquarters are in downtown Oakland. Oakland is the hub of the BART system; all BART lines run through downtown Oakland. Other than that, no reason.

In the better video I’ve seen, the cop in question looks startled when he fires, so, at first blush, it doesn’t look like he intended to shoot the man.

I don’t know if “attempted torture gone wrong” is much of a defense.  It isn’t like the guy posed any threat when he was lying face down under the weight of two other officers.

Why riot, though? Why not boycott the BART system, Birmingham-style or “A Day Without Immigrants”-style? Why not bury the police under lawsuits?

Rioting is counterproductive, I think.

Yeah, where are all the ruly mobs?  I’m not saying that a shop owner doesn’t have a legitimate grievance against the person who throws a rock through the window, (or against the person who says, “throw a rock through that window!”) but this “strategic and public relations advice to unruly mobs” genre is ridiculous.  Who is expected to heed this advice, the unruly mob steering committee?

I imagine that more useful advice would be directed toward the police department: implement procedures to prevent and make redress for unjustified uses of force/authority and begin the long road of restoring the public trust in the hopes of making riots less likely to occur in the future.

tootiredoftheright and Oakland resident:
thank you. i didn’t know that transit cops attended acadamys and etc.

but if he had all the real cop training, then WHAT? THE? HELL???

as for the Taser/gun issue, i stand by what i said earlier - if one is armed with a Taser, one should not also be armed with a gun. and not just because of the theoretical “accident” that some are trying to pass this murder off as. Taser have been shown (over and over again on this website, even) to be used MUCH more indiscrimitely (sp?) because they are supposed to be “non-lethal”. which they are not.
so why would they have BOTH. it just doesn’t compute for me… there are countries that do NOT arm most of their cops with guns; why do we? it just seems so disporportionate - in most cases a cop pulling a gun just escalates violence. the only time i think it is proper for a cop to use a gun is either when someone is trying to use a gun against the cop or when the violence level is already overwhelming, at which point there are still better options like retch-gas (which is much less lethal than a gun and has a better chance of actually stopping the violence).
and its feels as if cops are becoming more violent. this may not actually be true - it may be that the violence is being better reported, or maybe we are seeing that violence as more bad than we used to see it (if that makes sense).
there never seem to be any good answer - cops are supposed to protect us from people who are trying to hurt us, so they need to have force levels that equal those “bad guys”, but when they receive those force levels they abuse them - and us, the very same people that they are supposed to protect now have to find ways to protect themselves from their protectors…

Denelian: BART cops are cops, sort of. They have the powers that go with that label. But it’s kind of a makeshift system, they don’t have a lot of accountability—and I mean even compared to the regular cops—and this is not the first time there have been terrible results. Here’s a pretty good Bay Guardian editorial about it.